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Gadgeteer
Oct 14th 2013, 07:37 PM
I heard a Lutheran radio preacher teaching on how “faith is a gift from God”. He said something like “Faith is God’s gift, as He lavishes His grace upon us!”

Upon us? Us who? Who ultimately decides which man has faith, and which receives God’s grace?

In Matt8 (verses 5-13), a Centurion believed Jesus could just say the word and his servant would be healed. Jesus said, ”I have not seen such faith with anyone in Israel; be it done as you have believed.”

Jesus was amazed at how much faith the Centurion HAD? Does this sound like a reaction under the premise that “faith is given BY God TO men”? Why would Jesus remark on the man’s level of faith, if that level of faith was decided by GOD?


”Daughter, take courage; your faith has made you well.” Matt9:22

“Be it done to you according to your faith.” Matt9:29

How do these make sense if faith is GOD-GIFTED? God gives faith to a few, and then rewards the few for having the faith God DECIDED? How does that make sense?


”Without faith it is impossible to please God; for he who comes to God must believe God IS (must come BY faith!), and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him. By faith Noah, being warned by God about things not yet seen, in reverence prepared an ark …and became an heir of the righteousness which is in accordance TO FAITH.” Heb11:6-7

Faith? In reverence prepared (responded!)? What does Hebrews say --- that faith is given BY God TO certain men? Or that faith is a reverent response TO God? Faith is a response, isn’t it?


”God is not partial (biased/unjust), but in every nation the man WHO reveres Him and does right is WELCOME to Him.” Acts10:34-35

Here again is God responding TO reverence (and righteousness-seeking). Peter clearly saying that God welcoming/choosing those who do NOT revere/seek, is bias/partiality/unjustness that God is NOT.


”God is just and justifier of he who has faith in Jesus.” Rom3:26

Here is another occurrence of the idea of “justness”, placing it subordinate to faith. So faith is man’s response to God, and salvation is God’s response to FAITH!


”Receive as the outcome of YOUR FAITH salvation!” 1Pet1:9


There are (at least) two schools of thought on God’s perspective --- one, that God (who created all men) selects a few on whom He SHEDS His grace, giving them both grace and the faith to be saved --- and the other that God sheds His grace on all men, drawing each and every to where he (she?) can believe and be saved but each makes the decision.


”Do you think lightly of the riches of God’s kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God --- who will render to every man according to his works. To those WHO by perseverance in doing good seek glory and honor and immortality, (they receive) eternal life. But to those WHO are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, (they receive) wrath and indignation.” Rom2:4-8

In no way can Romans2:4-8 permit the idea that God only shows grace to a FEW, and GIVES them the faith to be saved. No, God’s kindness leads men to salvation, but each can decide to refuse and pursue sin instead, and therefore receive wrath (Hell). Salvation is the CONSEQUENCE of faith, and faith is men’s response to God!


”For God so loved the WORLD …that WHOSOEVER believes should not perish but have eternal life!” Jn3:16
“For God did not send the Son to condemn the world, but so that the world might be saved through Him.” Jn3:17

“God has ...mercy on ALL MEN.” Rm11:32

“The grace of God has appeared bringing salvation to ALL MEN”. Titus2:11

“God has decreed to men that all everywhere should REPENT, …having furnished proof to all men by raising Jesus from the dead.” Acts17:30-31

Verse after verse portraying “faith” as a decision, a response to God, not a gift FROM God. How can any of these verses ever fit the idea that “God gives faith to salvation”?

Why does it matter? Well, if faith is given BY God, then our believing is HIS choice and HIS responsibility --- both “beginning faith”, and “ending faith” --- our perseverance is solely God’s function, and we are passive recipients of His favor! But Scripture is replete with warnings for US to abide, and “save ourselves” (1Tim4:16), to be diligent to make our salvation firm by possessing fruits like perseverance so that the gates of eternity BE provided to us (2Pet1:5-11), to abide in Jesus (guarding against deceivers!) SO THAT we not shrink in shame from our sin when He returns! 1Jn2:26-28!

Another thing --- go back to Acts10:34-35 --- for GOD to decide which man gets saved and give faith to a FEW, casts God as “biased/unjust”! It assigns the ultimate choice of BOTH salvation and sin/reprobation of men to God, impugning His character! Doesn’t matter whether God actively causes sin (“double-predestination”), or ordains sin by neglect, it’s still His CHOICE that whoever perishes, perishes.

Romans1:17 says the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; meaningless, unless we go to the Greek. Two words are used, both from the root of “faith” --- noted Bible commentator A.T.Robertson defers to Lightfoot, “faith the start, and faith the goal.”


”The righteousness of God is revealed from BEGINNING faith to ENDING faith --- as it is written, the righteous shall live BY faith.”

It is our choice how to begin, and it is our choice how to end. To perceive that “faith is gifted by God” is to become apathetic towards our relationship with Christ; it is after all, fully HIS function, is it not? And Scripture says “it is not” --- we abide in Him, BY our faith. We use His power to overcome our sin, but by our perseverance. His strength, our abiding. We “BUILD OURSELVES in faith, and KEEP OURESLVES in His love” (Jude20-21)!

Thus we see the issue is critical to our whole perspective and walk! Does ANY relationship we have flourish without time and commitment, without communication and fellowship? NO! God is no different --- do we spend time with Him, do we seek His power and His righteousness to fill us and overflow onto the world? Do we PURSUE Him as we would a Human whom we love? We are commanded to love God --- a command that is complete nonsense if GOD decides who gets faith, and who will love Him!

We decide; and not just once, but every moment of every day.


Can anyone find any verses to oppose the idea of “faith being the response to God”? Or explain the cited verses here? Discussions here of this kind have caused hard feelings in the past, even threads to be shut down; I am confident in all of you that we each can embody 1Jn4:20, and even if we do not come to agreement on everything we can discuss with kindness and love. That as the world watches (and they do!), they will see Christ in us, sufficient that they will want what we have.


"In all things show yourselves to be examples of good deeds, with purity in doctrine, dignified, sound in speech which is beyond reproach, in order that the opponent may be put to shame, having nothing bad to say about us." Titus2:7-8

Let us agree that the opponent is he who opposes JESUS, not any one of "we who claim to be His"!

I look forward to a good discussion that will make all of us think, make us more mature in Christ, deeper in fellowship with each other, and only bring glory and honor to Him whom we serve!

Walls
Oct 14th 2013, 09:27 PM
I think your thesis is not complete. You still have to deal with the following.

Hebrews 12:2
"Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God."

Matthew 16:17
"And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven."

1 Corinthians 12:8-9
"8 For to one is given ...
9 .... faith by the same Spirit; to another (is given) the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;"

Ephesians 2:8
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:"

In this last one the rules of grammar dictate that faith was the gift. Example; "The airplane that flew through the sky had a tail, and that, blue." This means that the tail of the airplane was blue not the sky, even if the sky is blue. If it was the other way around it would read; "The airplane with a tail flew through the sky, and that, blue", meaning the sky was blue.

keck553
Oct 14th 2013, 09:32 PM
It's important to also realize that Faith in the Bible is also a verb, not a noun.

It's not about thinking, it's about doing.

Bro Berryl
Oct 14th 2013, 09:45 PM
I think your thesis is not complete. You still have to deal with the following.

Hebrews 12:2
"Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God."

Matthew 16:17
"And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven."

1 Corinthians 12:8-9
"8 For to one is given ...
9 .... faith by the same Spirit; to another (is given) the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;"

Ephesians 2:8
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:"

In this last one the rules of grammar dictate that faith was the gift. Example; "The airplane that flew through the sky had a tail, and that, blue." This means that the tail of the airplane was blue not the sky, even if the sky is blue. If it was the other way around it would read; "The airplane with a tail flew through the sky, and that, blue", meaning the sky was blue.

Gadgeteer did a fantastic lesson on the proper understanding of biblical faith. He correctly pointed out the flaws in the doctrine called Calvinism and showed us through the scriptures how faith allows a person to find peace with God.

As for it being incomplete I don't want to take any right to him to defend what he wrote but I have read it through twice and I don't see anything wrong with it. On the other hand I do see your misapplication of scriptures in this post.

Gadgeteer
Oct 15th 2013, 01:30 AM
I think your thesis is not complete. You still have to deal with the following.If I "deal" with them, will you receive it? :-)


Hebrews 12:2
"Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.""Author" is archegos --- prince, leader. "Finisher" is teleiotes, chief example. Thus the Greek intent is "Jesus is the leader and chief-example of faith".

In no way does it indicate "sovereign and monergistic machinator of faith". In the thread "The Whole Letter of Hebrews", chapter 12 stands solidly against the idea of "gifted-faith". Verses 7-9 speak of a formerly born-again person (we all HAVE BECOME metochos/partners in His discipline), able to turn from God's discipline and no longer be sons but illegitimate. "SHALL we not CONTINUE in submission AND LIVE?" Verses 15 ("don't allow bitterness to cause you to come short of God's grace"), and 25 ("much less shall WE escape who turn away from God") are clear.


Matthew 16:17
"And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven."Flesh and blood has not revealed --- what? Revealed Jesus' MESSIAHSHIP. This fits with Matt13:12 says "To he who HAS, is more given (deeper knowledge like parable-explanations)". What is it that one has, before getting deeper spiritual knowledge? The only thing one could have, is salvation. Therefore verses 15-16 (still Matthew13) "blessed are YOUR eyes (that you have not closed) BECAUSE they see!"

The idea of "deeper knowledge given to saved people" is also 1Cor2:14; natural men do not understand the things of the Spirit, for they are foolishness. What does a man have to do to GET those "spiritual things"? Verse 12 states those things are taught by the RECEIVED Spirit. "Receive", denotes belief and salvation!

Saved people get deeper spiritual things that natural men do not have!


1 Corinthians 12:8-9
"8 For to one is given ...
9 .... faith by the same Spirit; to another (is given) the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;" This is a spiritual gift of faith given to one saved believer and not to ANOTHER saved believer. You would have done better to cite Rom12:3 (which also does not apply, that is "Semitic View").


Ephesians 2:8
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:"First, basic Greek defeats that view --- "touto" (that) is neuter, "pistis" (faith) is feminine; genders would match if Paul had meant "THAT FAITH". No, the subject is the whole opening phrase, by-grace-through-faith-have-you-been-saved. NAS footnotes "that", with "THAT SALVATION". That salvation which then has five modifiers, "by grace", "through faith", "not-of-yourselves", "gift-of-God", "not-by-works".

In no way does Eph2:8 assert "faith is gifted by God".

Now --- while we are in Eph2, please recognize that WHEN we were dead in our sins (verse 1), God saved us BY GRACE (verse 5), repeating by grace THROUGH FAITH in verse 8 -- dead men believed! Any way to deny it?


In this last one the rules of grammar dictate that faith was the gift. Example; "The airplane that flew through the sky had a tail, and that, blue." This means that the tail of the airplane was blue not the sky, even if the sky is blue. If it was the other way around it would read; "The airplane with a tail flew through the sky, and that, blue", meaning the sky was blue.

No, the Greek does not support this; gender mismatch, and the prepositional phrase subordinates "that" as modifier of the subject, as New American states "that salvation".

Not to disparage your reply, I appreciate the discussion; and I look forward to your thoughts on the OP, which you have not engaged. Hopefully I've answered your "issues you wanted me to deal with", now I would like to know how you perceive all those "according to YOUR FAITH be it done" verses.

Why does Scripture so often cast "faith" as something God responds TO, rather than causes? "Rewarder of those WHO SEEK"? "Justifier of those WHO believe"? "Welcomes those WHO revere and do right"?

Where is the principle that God DECIDES who seeks/believes/reveres? BTW, salvation is given to those WHO seek in Matt7:7 and 14 ("heurisko" find-by-seeking in verse 14). What do you think of that?

Gadgeteer
Oct 15th 2013, 01:32 AM
It's important to also realize that Faith in the Bible is also a verb, not a noun.

It's not about thinking, it's about doing.

Cant argue with that, excellent post! And often the verb is in the participle form --- "whoever IS BELIEVING".

Gadgeteer
Oct 15th 2013, 01:42 AM
Gadgeteer did a fantastic lesson on the proper understanding of biblical faith. He correctly pointed out the flaws in the doctrine called Calvinism and showed us through the scriptures how faith allows a person to find peace with God.

As for it being incomplete I don't want to take any right to him to defend what he wrote but I have read it through twice and I don't see anything wrong with it. On the other hand I do see your misapplication of scriptures in this post.

Honored by your words -- I agree Walls misunderstands the verses cited, as I showed in post 5.

That God charges "faith" to us, directly relates to the most basic commandment of all, "You shall LOVE the Lord your God with all your heart, mind and soul" --- how can this exist if faith is something God gives to (certain few) men? The commandment would be ridiculous. Seems to me very clear in passages like Deut30:19-20, "I have set before you life and death --- so CHOOSE LIFE by loving the Lord your God, by obeying His voice and walking in His statutes and by holding fast to Him."

Love God --- the most basic command, on which (and the second command "love neighbors") all the Law and Prophets are based. Matt22:37-40.

You --- DO this! Not "sit back and hope God does it to you..."

Walls
Oct 15th 2013, 08:51 AM
If I "deal" with them, will you receive it?

......

Not to disparage your reply, I appreciate the discussion; and I look forward to your thoughts on the OP, which you have not engaged. Hopefully I've answered your "issues you wanted me to deal with", now I would like to know how you perceive all those "according to YOUR FAITH be it done" verses.

Why does Scripture so often cast "faith" as something God responds TO, rather than causes? "Rewarder of those WHO SEEK"? "Justifier of those WHO believe"? "Welcomes those WHO revere and do right"?

Where is the principle that God DECIDES who seeks/believes/reveres? BTW, salvation is given to those WHO seek in Matt7:7 and 14 ("heurisko" find-by-seeking in verse 14). What do you think of that?

Thanks for your educated answers. You have answered well. I was just wondering why, in such a comprehensive thesis, you do not address the verses that I had to bring up. As a teacher, is not one obliged to deal with all possibilities, and not avoid some? But of course you have the freedom to do this. One more then and I will back off.

Romans 12:3; "For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith".

Thanks for your time.

Walls
Oct 15th 2013, 10:10 AM
Gadgeteer did a fantastic lesson on the proper understanding of biblical faith. He correctly pointed out the flaws in the doctrine called Calvinism and showed us through the scriptures how faith allows a person to find peace with God.

As for it being incomplete I don't want to take any right to him to defend what he wrote but I have read it through twice and I don't see anything wrong with it. On the other hand I do see your misapplication of scriptures in this post.

I have not yet taken a position. I only showed verses that at first reading seem to be adverse to his argument, and which he decided not to deal with, and asked that he comment. "Misapplication" is quite strong when I haven't taken a position yet. Misunderstanding, or incorrect understanding might be a better judgement. But no matter. I don't think anyone on this Forum who studied Calvin thinks I'm one of his adherents.

luigi
Oct 15th 2013, 11:12 AM
So faith is man’s response to God, and salvation is God’s response to FAITH!
Salvation is the CONSEQUENCE of faith, and faith is men’s response to God!
”For God so loved the WORLD …that WHOSOEVER believes should not perish but have eternal life!” Jn3:16
“For God did not send the Son to condemn the world, but so that the world might be saved through Him.” Jn3:17

“God has ...mercy on ALL MEN.” Rm11:32

“The grace of God has appeared bringing salvation to ALL MEN”. Titus2:11

“God has decreed to men that all everywhere should REPENT, …having furnished proof to all men by raising Jesus from the dead.” Acts17:30-31

Verse after verse portraying “faith” as a decision, a response to God, not a gift FROM God. How can any of these verses ever fit the idea that “God gives faith to salvation”?


While believing that "God is" does represent faith, it is the most basic form of faith, which everyone if they want can have.
I believe agnostics and atheists willfully choose not to believe that God is.
You therefore have to choose to believe God is and that He is a rewarder to those who seek Him.
God then rewards those who continuously seek Him with increasing faith. This increasing faith will lead to salvation, if one continues in it.

Redeemed by Grace
Oct 15th 2013, 11:20 AM
Gadgeteer did a fantastic lesson on the proper understanding of biblical faith. He correctly pointed out the flaws in the doctrine called Calvinism and showed us through the scriptures how faith allows a person to find peace with God.

As for it being incomplete I don't want to take any right to him to defend what he wrote but I have read it through twice and I don't see anything wrong with it. On the other hand I do see your misapplication of scriptures in this post.

And that's were studies like this fall down, for the aim is not to exegetic the text of scriptures, and come to the conclusion of what scripture declares - but to target against a certain position, whether it be the days of creation, the origin of sin, the time of the millennial kingdom, or the timing of the rapture, or yes even Arminianism and Calvinism, and thus other scriptures are ignored, left out or forgotten.

Working backwards from an answer may be good scientific theory in some circles, but setting out the target and walking back to shoot at it doesn't give it the credence to the sum of thy word, IMHO, for the goal is not what does the scriptures declare, but that I hit the target I set out to hit. See the flaw in the process?

LandShark
Oct 15th 2013, 11:26 AM
Faith is a gift for this reason.... it (faith) comes by hearing the Word of God. He speaks, we hear, we do or stand because we can trust the source. How is that a gift? Because we don't initially draw close to God, He draws us close to Him. (John 6:44) So, we only HEAR because He drew us to Him.

Scooby_Snacks
Oct 15th 2013, 11:38 AM
Faith is a gift for this reason.... it (faith) comes by hearing the Word of God. He speaks, we hear, we do or stand because we can trust the source. How is that a gift? Because we don't initially draw close to God, He draws us close to Him. (John 6:44) So, we only HEAR because He drew us to Him.

This would be close to my stance as well. Everything good comes from Him, including the ability to know or trust him.

I don't get to feel better or wiser than others because I "decided" to believe The Gospel all on my own without any influence.
I believe The Gospel because He revealed it to me through His Word, By His Spirit and through the love of those in His Body.

Those things in motion, the truth of my separation from God through my sin, and my desire for that (or some kind of ) relationship kindled by His Fire of Passion and love for me-- I was persuaded to relinquish my life to the care of God.

Bro Berryl
Oct 15th 2013, 12:17 PM
I have not yet taken a position. I only showed verses that at first reading seem to be adverse to his argument, and which he decided not to deal with, and asked that he comment. "Misapplication" is quite strong when I haven't taken a position yet. Misunderstanding, or incorrect understanding might be a better judgement. But no matter. I don't think anyone on this Forum who studied Calvin thinks I'm one of his adherents.

My apology, misunderstanding does seem more appropriate.

I don't know you well enough to know if you support Calvinism, but I do know that his teaching can be seen in many of the posts I read. The acronym T.U.L.I.P is used to outline his teaching. Total depravity, unconditional election, limited atonement, irresistible grace, perseverance of the saints.

As you read through the different posts pertaining to this subject see if any support Calvin's teaching.

Gadgeteer
Oct 15th 2013, 12:31 PM
Thanks for your educated answers. You have answered well. I was just wondering why, in such a comprehensive thesis, you do not address the verses that I had to bring up.There is a limit to how much one can put in a single post --- beyond a certain length, people just won't read it. I've been known to make loooooong posts, usually trying to respond to someone else, comprehensively.

Perhaps I was just waiting for you to bring them up. :-D


As a teacher, is not one obliged to deal with all possibilities, and not avoid some? But of course you have the freedom to do this.And that is exactly the issue --- can we have a doctrine that avoids no verses? Suppose all the verses you cited could not have been answered --- would that then have been the basis of avoiding the verses cited in the opening post?

(BTW, you still have not answered them...)


One more then and I will back off.

Romans 12:3; "For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith".I did mention this in post 5:



1 Corinthians 12:8-9
"8 For to one is given ...
9 .... faith by the same Spirit; to another (is given) the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;"
This is a spiritual gift of faith given to one saved believer and not to ANOTHER saved believer. You would have done better to cite Rom12:3 (which also does not apply, that is "Semitic View").

I knew when I wrote that the idea of "Semitic View" was not addressed; I was counting on it being addressed in a later post (this one!). :-)


Look at Exodus 10:1:

"Go to Pharaoh, for I have HARDENED HIS HEART and the heart of his servants, that I may perform these signs of Mine among them..."

God hardened Pharaoh's heart? God, in whom there is no sin (1Jn3:5), God --- perfect and perfectly righteous, CAUSED SIN in Pharaoh? :eek:

Look two verses earlier:

"When Pharaoh saw that the rain and hail and thunder had ceased, Pharaoh hardened his (OWN!!!) heart, he and his servants." Ex9:34

So which was it --- GOD, or Pharaoh HIMSELF that hardened Pharaoh's heart? We see that verse 10:1 is a literary device called "Semitic View", or "Anthropomorphism" --- ascribing to GOD what men do THEMSELVES. Thus, "God hardened Pharaoh's heart", is just another way of saying "Pharaoh hardened his heart and sinned".

It's the same in 2Cor4:3-4 --- where Paul says that satan blinded their minds lest they see and be saved. Now, does satan really have the power to CLOSE salvation to anyone? No! His power is only to lie and to deceive; this must fit with what Jesus said in Matt13:15, "men close their OWN eyes and ears against salvation". Jesus was right, or Jesus was wrong --- and He wasn't wrong. So "satan-blinded-their-minds" is just another way of saying they closed their OWN eyes and ears against salvation", which perfectly fits one chapter earlier where 3:16 says "WHEN a man TURNS to the Lord the veil over his heart is REMOVED!"

Semitic-view --- just another way of saying "as each man does/has".

And that explains Romans12:3 perfectly. In the second place, in verse 1 the conversation is addressed to BRETHREN, so it's not talking about "faith-to-salvation". But in the FIRST place, "as God has allotted to each a measure of faith" is just another First Century way of saying "As much faith as each man HAS".

There are still all those verses in the OP that express faith as something we DO, that God RECEIVES. Also, I mentioned Jude20-21 --- if "faith" is something God gives/does TO us, then how is Jude saying "BUILD YOURSELVES in holy faith, KEEP YOURSELVES in the love of God"? Clearly --- faith is something we DO, with full volition. What's the difference between "faith to salvation", and the command "to love God" (Matt22:37)?

Nothing!


Thanks for your time.

My pleasure; thank you for your response --- may something I said encourage you in Christ.

:-)

Gadgeteer
Oct 15th 2013, 12:42 PM
While believing that God is does represent faith, it is the most basic form, which everyone if they want can have.That's true; and while "believing in God" does not save anyone (James2:19!), it is the beginning of faith-to-salvation.


I believe agnostics and atheists willfully choose not to believe that God is.They do. But there is no such thing as an Atheist --- you can convert almost any Atheist to Agnostic instantly, with the following argument:

"Do you know everything there is to know in the Universe?" (They must answer "no".)

"Do you know HALF of all there is to know in the Universe?" (Again they must answer "no".)

"Would you consider that God could exist in the half YOU DO NOT KNOW?"

And they really have no choice but to admit God could exist --- that is not an "Atheist" position, it is AGNOSTIC. And "Agnostic" is much better than Atheist, it is reachable. An Agnostic is a DOUBTER. Now all that remains for them to admit, is whether they are an HONEST doubter (would like to know if God exists) or a DISHONEST doubter (does not WANT to know about God).

A brilliant argument, heard from TV preacher Adrienne Rogers.


You therefore have to choose to believe God is and that He is a rewarder to those who seek Him.Yes --- but do those find God who seek Him? Or do they seek Him whom God "finds/converts"? Find-by-seeking is clear in Scripture.


God then rewards those who continuously seek Him with increasing faith. This increasing faith will lead to salvation, if one continues in it.

Agreed --- well said. "Build yourselves in holy faith, keep yourselves in the love of God" (Jude20-21).

:-)

Gadgeteer
Oct 15th 2013, 12:46 PM
Faith is a gift for this reason.... it (faith) comes by hearing the Word of God. He speaks, we hear, we do or stand because we can trust the source. How is that a gift? Because we don't initially draw close to God, He draws us close to Him. (John 6:44) So, we only HEAR because He drew us to Him.

But does He draw some, or all? If "some", then faith is a gift from Him, decided BY Him.

But if He draws all, and each decides to enter in through Him-the-door --- or to turn back to sin --- then faith is the act of entering in through Him.

In Matt7:24-27 Jesus said that those WHO do His words (believe!) are ...wise... but those who do NOT do His words (disbelieve!) are ...foolish...

Does that fit "God-decides", or "we-decide"?

Gadgeteer
Oct 15th 2013, 01:02 PM
This would be close to my stance as well. Everything good comes from Him, including the ability to know or trust him. Hi, Scooby. :wave:

I'd love to hear your thoughts on post 17 (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php/251074-quot-Faith-quot-is-a-gift-FROM-God!?p=3058663#post3058663). Is salvation open to all (and therefore the decision rests on each person)? Or is salvation given to only a few whom God CHOOSES (and therefore everything, faith AND perseverance, flow from Him)?


I don't get to feel better or wiser than others because I "decided" to believe The Gospel all on my own without any influence.All right --- then how do you interact with Jesus' words in Matt7:24-27? WHY is one who does Jesus' words "wise", but one who does NOT do His words "foolish"?

What did Jesus mean?


I believe The Gospel because He revealed it to me through His Word, By His Spirit and through the love of those in His Body. Again --- is it only you (and a few select others)? Or does everyone have the same opportunity to live forever in His love?


Those things in motion, the truth of my separation from God through my sin, and my desire for that (or some kind of ) relationship kindled by His Fire of Passion and love for me-- I was persuaded to relinquish my life to the care of God.

I am very grateful for your persuasion; you have the kind of heart and spirit that will make eternity with you as family brighter, more joyful, and more blessed. And that is our motivation to "save others, snatching them from the fire" --- for our treasure is the crowd of people we can take WITH us into Jesus' presence.

Whoever said "you can't take it with you", needs to find out about JESUS!

;-)

Gadgeteer
Oct 15th 2013, 01:18 PM
My apology, misunderstanding does seem more appropriate.

I don't know you well enough to know if you support Calvinism, but I do know that his teaching can be seen in many of the posts I read. The acronym T.U.L.I.P is used to outline his teaching. Total depravity, unconditional election, limited atonement, irresistible grace, perseverance of the saints.

As you read through the different posts pertaining to this subject see if any support Calvin's teaching.

I think "total depravity" does not represent what they really believe. "Total inability" is really the view --- that men are not just drowning in a sea of sin, but are already DEAD --- rotting CORPSES, who can no more grab hold of a thrown life-preserver than could an old dead LOG in the water! Thus (the view holds) God must make them alive FIRST, and only THEN can they (irresistibly WILL they!) take the rescue line!

Passages like Acts17:26-31 overturn this; God puts all men when and where each CAN seek Him and can FIND Him, though He's not far from ANYONE; and He commands all men everywhere to repent, having furnished proof to ALL MEN by raising Jesus from the dead.


A lot of people object to the idea of "all men can believe" --- if all men have that innate ability then why did Jesus come, they already had the ability to be saved! (That "inherent ability" is Pelagianism, or SOME ability is Semi-Pelagianism.) But Scripture does not say that; God's mercy is on ALL men (Rm11:32), Jesus helkuo-draws/drags ALL men (Jn12:32), every last person is brought OUT of their inability to where they make the choice --- as Rm2:4-8 teaches, God's kindness LEADS to repentance, but each decides his own choice --- to turn to righteousness and immortality, and receive eternal life; or to stubbornly refuse God and pursue sin and store up wrath for himself.

So it's not any kind of Pelagianism, but rather God's sincere and EFFECTIVE call to every person. Thus it is "wise" for he who receives God's gift of grace (Rom5:17!), and very foolish for he who chooses to perish (though they're not thinking of perishing, but only the temporary pleasure of sinning.) Such "wisdom" has no merit for he who believes; rather the opposite, wise is he who is BROKEN and HUMBLED by the conviction of his sin, who throws himself HELPLESS and UNDESERVING at Jesus' feet hoping only in Jesus' LOVE to save him from his sins.

Jesus came for the sick sinners, it is not the HEALTHY or RIGHTEOUS that need Him the Physician. Those who come to the Physician, are healed. But those who refuse His rescue, die. Wise, or foolish; and still nothing of themselves.

Matt9:12-13!

episkopos
Oct 15th 2013, 01:19 PM
I heard a Lutheran radio preacher teaching on how “faith is a gift from God”. He said something like “Faith is God’s gift, as He lavishes His grace upon us!”

Upon us? Us who? Who ultimately decides which man has faith, and which receives God’s grace?

In Matt8 (verses 5-13), a Centurion believed Jesus could just say the word and his servant would be healed. Jesus said, ”I have not seen such faith with anyone in Israel; be it done as you have believed.”

Jesus was amazed at how much faith the Centurion HAD? Does this sound like a reaction under the premise that “faith is given BY God TO men”? Why would Jesus remark on the man’s level of faith, if that level of faith was decided by GOD?


”Daughter, take courage; your faith has made you well.” Matt9:22

“Be it done to you according to your faith.” Matt9:29

How do these make sense if faith is GOD-GIFTED? God gives faith to a few, and then rewards the few for having the faith God DECIDED? How does that make sense?


”Without faith it is impossible to please God; for he who comes to God must believe God IS (must come BY faith!), and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him. By faith Noah, being warned by God about things not yet seen, in reverence prepared an ark …and became an heir of the righteousness which is in accordance TO FAITH.” Heb11:6-7

Faith? In reverence prepared (responded!)? What does Hebrews say --- that faith is given BY God TO certain men? Or that faith is a reverent response TO God? Faith is a response, isn’t it?


”God is not partial (biased/unjust), but in every nation the man WHO reveres Him and does right is WELCOME to Him.” Acts10:34-35

Here again is God responding TO reverence (and righteousness-seeking). Peter clearly saying that God welcoming/choosing those who do NOT revere/seek, is bias/partiality/unjustness that God is NOT.


”God is just and justifier of he who has faith in Jesus.” Rom3:26

Here is another occurrence of the idea of “justness”, placing it subordinate to faith. So faith is man’s response to God, and salvation is God’s response to FAITH!


”Receive as the outcome of YOUR FAITH salvation!” 1Pet1:9


There are (at least) two schools of thought on God’s perspective --- one, that God (who created all men) selects a few on whom He SHEDS His grace, giving them both grace and the faith to be saved --- and the other that God sheds His grace on all men, drawing each and every to where he (she?) can believe and be saved but each makes the decision.


”Do you think lightly of the riches of God’s kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God --- who will render to every man according to his works. To those WHO by perseverance in doing good seek glory and honor and immortality, (they receive) eternal life. But to those WHO are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, (they receive) wrath and indignation.” Rom2:4-8

In no way can Romans2:4-8 permit the idea that God only shows grace to a FEW, and GIVES them the faith to be saved. No, God’s kindness leads men to salvation, but each can decide to refuse and pursue sin instead, and therefore receive wrath (Hell). Salvation is the CONSEQUENCE of faith, and faith is men’s response to God!


”For God so loved the WORLD …that WHOSOEVER believes should not perish but have eternal life!” Jn3:16
“For God did not send the Son to condemn the world, but so that the world might be saved through Him.” Jn3:17

“God has ...mercy on ALL MEN.” Rm11:32

“The grace of God has appeared bringing salvation to ALL MEN”. Titus2:11

“God has decreed to men that all everywhere should REPENT, …having furnished proof to all men by raising Jesus from the dead.” Acts17:30-31

Verse after verse portraying “faith” as a decision, a response to God, not a gift FROM God. How can any of these verses ever fit the idea that “God gives faith to salvation”?

Why does it matter? Well, if faith is given BY God, then our believing is HIS choice and HIS responsibility --- both “beginning faith”, and “ending faith” --- our perseverance is solely God’s function, and we are passive recipients of His favor! But Scripture is replete with warnings for US to abide, and “save ourselves” (1Tim4:16), to be diligent to make our salvation firm by possessing fruits like perseverance so that the gates of eternity BE provided to us (2Pet1:5-11), to abide in Jesus (guarding against deceivers!) SO THAT we not shrink in shame from our sin when He returns! 1Jn2:26-28!

Another thing --- go back to Acts10:34-35 --- for GOD to decide which man gets saved and give faith to a FEW, casts God as “biased/unjust”! It assigns the ultimate choice of BOTH salvation and sin/reprobation of men to God, impugning His character! Doesn’t matter whether God actively causes sin (“double-predestination”), or ordains sin by neglect, it’s still His CHOICE that whoever perishes, perishes.

Romans1:17 says the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; meaningless, unless we go to the Greek. Two words are used, both from the root of “faith” --- noted Bible commentator A.T.Robertson defers to Lightfoot, “faith the start, and faith the goal.”


”The righteousness of God is revealed from BEGINNING faith to ENDING faith --- as it is written, the righteous shall live BY faith.”

It is our choice how to begin, and it is our choice how to end. To perceive that “faith is gifted by God” is to become apathetic towards our relationship with Christ; it is after all, fully HIS function, is it not? And Scripture says “it is not” --- we abide in Him, BY our faith. We use His power to overcome our sin, but by our perseverance. His strength, our abiding. We “BUILD OURSELVES in faith, and KEEP OURESLVES in His love” (Jude20-21)!

Thus we see the issue is critical to our whole perspective and walk! Does ANY relationship we have flourish without time and commitment, without communication and fellowship? NO! God is no different --- do we spend time with Him, do we seek His power and His righteousness to fill us and overflow onto the world? Do we PURSUE Him as we would a Human whom we love? We are commanded to love God --- a command that is complete nonsense if GOD decides who gets faith, and who will love Him!

We decide; and not just once, but every moment of every day.


Can anyone find any verses to oppose the idea of “faith being the response to God”? Or explain the cited verses here? Discussions here of this kind have caused hard feelings in the past, even threads to be shut down; I am confident in all of you that we each can embody 1Jn4:20, and even if we do not come to agreement on everything we can discuss with kindness and love. That as the world watches (and they do!), they will see Christ in us, sufficient that they will want what we have.


"In all things show yourselves to be examples of good deeds, with purity in doctrine, dignified, sound in speech which is beyond reproach, in order that the opponent may be put to shame, having nothing bad to say about us." Titus2:7-8

Let us agree that the opponent is he who opposes JESUS, not any one of "we who claim to be His"!

I look forward to a good discussion that will make all of us think, make us more mature in Christ, deeper in fellowship with each other, and only bring glory and honor to Him whom we serve!

Faith is indeed a gift from God. He gives grace (including faith) to the humble. So our part is not a human belief as in every other religion. Our belief does nothing but puff us up. We please God through our humility and He gives us that inspiration of a faith intuition that makes us persevere into blessing from Him.


Faith comes from weakness and inspiration...not from a human faculty like a religious belief.

Gadgeteer
Oct 15th 2013, 01:39 PM
Faith is indeed a gift from God. He gives grace (including faith) to the humble. So our part is not a human belief as in every other religion. Our belief does nothing but puff us up. We please God through our humility and He gives us that inspiration of a faith intuition that makes us persevere into blessing from Him.


Faith comes from weakness and inspiration...not from a human faculty like a religious belief.

Hi, Episkopos! :wave:

So --- what do you do with all the verses you quoted in your post?


PS:

He gives grace ...to the humble.Peter says "humble yourselves" (1:5:6). James said it (4:10), and Jesus said it (Matt18:3-4). Isn't the act of "humbling oneself", really faith?
:confused:

Ta-An
Oct 15th 2013, 01:42 PM
Some very good answers to this thread... :pp

Jer 33:3 says that if we call on God, He will answer us....

Can I say that :God rewards us for our obedience.... in that we are in relationship with Him...

Blessings to you all

Gadgeteer
Oct 15th 2013, 01:49 PM
Some very good answers to this thread... :ppHi, Ta-An! :wave:


Jer 33:3 says that if we call on God, He will answer us....

Can I say that :God rewards us for our obedience.... in that we are in relationship with Him...Hebrews5:9 does say that He is the source of salvation to all who obey Him; seems to place "salvation" as consequential to "obedience", doesn't it?

So --- what is the difference between "obedience", and "belief"? (Hint -- Heb3:18-19, 4:11) Is there a substantial difference?


Blessings to you all And to you --- you are a blessing to us!

:hug:

Scooby_Snacks
Oct 15th 2013, 03:01 PM
Hi, Scooby. :wave:

I'd love to hear your thoughts on post 17 (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php/251074-quot-Faith-quot-is-a-gift-FROM-God!?p=3058663#post3058663). Is salvation open to all (and therefore the decision rests on each person)? Or is salvation given to only a few whom God CHOOSES (and therefore everything, faith AND perseverance, flow from Him)?

If what God says is true, then no one is without excuse as far as God's existence --
To me that means every person is given the opportunity to know Him.

** I did read Post 17, but what you are writing is based on how you perceive, as what I wrote is how I perceive. God's influence was greater at that time for me. He knocked on the door for a long time, but I didn't hear Him---and then He drew me to Him with bands of love. I answered the call out of the desire, of a prepared heart, which had never been there previously. Everything added up for me over a long period of time, and those things were good, and those things were from Him.

I don't understand how or why a person would still deny the Truth of The Gospel if they were in the same exact situation as I was.
I believe everything flows from being in His rest, what He accomplished, who He is, and that relationship is something I participate in, in order for it to thrive. (I do this because I want to have relationship with Him)



All right --- then how do you interact with Jesus' words in Matt7:24-27? WHY is one who does Jesus' words "wise", but one who does NOT do His words "foolish"?

What did Jesus mean?

I am getting to that in the How do we Obey the Gospel thread so stay tuned. No spoilers!





I am very grateful for your persuasion; you have the kind of heart and spirit that will make eternity with you as family brighter, more joyful, and more blessed. And that is our motivation to "save others, snatching them from the fire" --- for our treasure is the crowd of people we can take WITH us into Jesus' presence.

Whoever said "you can't take it with you", needs to find out about JESUS!

;-)

Thanks Gadgeteer.

Ta-An
Oct 15th 2013, 04:15 PM
Hi, Ta-An! :wave:

Hebrews5:9 does say that He is the source of salvation to all who obey Him; seems to place "salvation" as consequential to "obedience", doesn't it?

So --- what is the difference between "obedience", and "belief"? (Hint -- Heb3:18-19, 4:11) Is there a substantial difference?

And to you --- you are a blessing to us!

:hug::wave: Hi Gadeteer

Indeed so. Salvation is a gift to those who have faith and walk in obedience.

But it all starts with:
God's Word....
To read it,
The Holy Spirit to reveal the truth to you
...to align yourself with that truth
...obedience
...reward!!

To me it is like a Balance scale.... God gives on the one side and what we do with what He gives on the other side

Curtis
Oct 15th 2013, 05:25 PM
Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. Faith will always be present when the gospel is preached. It is available to all who hear it. That person who hears the Word must make the decision to act upon it. That's the works part. We do not work to get faith, we work because we have faith. There is a big difference there. Pharaoh harden his own heart, but God also harden his heart because he heard the Word (which is God) but refused to obey it. Anytime someone hears the gospel and refuses it obey hardens there heart.

Gadgeteer
Oct 15th 2013, 06:09 PM
Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. Faith will always be present when the gospel is preached. It is available to all who hear it. That person who hears the Word must make the decision to act upon it. That's the works part. We do not work to get faith, we work because we have faith. There is a big difference there. Pharaoh hardened his own heart, but God also hardened his heart because he heard the Word (which is God) but refused to obey it.Hi, Curtis. I have a problem with the statement "God hardened his heart" --- God certainly never closes anyone against loving Him and living forever; I perceive as Paul worded it in Rom1:24, 26, 28 --- three times "God gave them over". He caused nothing bad, but permitted them to choose wickedness.

The "literary device" of saying "God hardened someone's heart" (or the devil blinded their minds) is just another way of saying they disbelieved.

What do you think about Acts4:28? Some think it means God actively caused SIN (wrote sins into their hearts!). I don't believe that was Luke's intent; do you?


Anytime someone hears the gospel and refuses (to obey) it hardens their heart.Sounds like you and I are more in agreement on this than not.

:-)

Curtis
Oct 15th 2013, 06:53 PM
Hi, Curtis. I have a problem with the statement "God hardened his heart" --- God certainly never closes anyone against loving Him and living forever; I perceive as Paul worded it in Rom1:24, 26, 28 --- three times "God gave them over". He caused nothing bad, but permitted them to choose wickedness.

The "literary device" of saying "God hardened someone's heart" (or the devil blinded their minds) is just another way of saying they disbelieved.

What do you think about Acts4:28? Some think it means God actively caused SIN (wrote sins into their hearts!). I don't believe that was Luke's intent; do you?

Sounds like you and I are more in agreement on this than not.

:-)

Well, Everything God says to us is for our benefit, and safety. When scripture tells us that we must love God more then mothers, fathers, children, and anything. The Lord is not some wacko who wants everything to be just him him him. There is a reason why he tells us that this is how it must be. Obviously we are told to love one another. If we don't do this we will not be called his children, for love is God's calling card. The reason we are to love God first and foremost is because all life, all love, all safety, all joy, all faith, all perseverance streams from God him self and it is flows out directly into the heart of his children, and then it flow into his children then out to others. So we can not love others until we love God first. When we reject faith we are rejecting his love and safety. This rejecting the Word of God has a profound impact of the human heart which is not good. Eventually it leads to God given themselves over to a reprobate mind.

Gadgeteer
Oct 15th 2013, 07:46 PM
Well, Everything God says to us is for our benefit, and safety. When scripture tells us that we must love God more then mothers, fathers, children, and anything. The Lord is not some wacko who wants everything to be just him him him. There is a reason why he tells us that this is how it must be. Obviously we are told to love one another. If we don't do this we will not be called his children, for love is God's calling card. The reason we are to love God first and foremost is because all life, all love, all safety, all joy, all faith, all perseverance streams from God him self and it is flows out directly into the heart of his children, and then it flows into his children then out to others.I will "second" that, with the obvious difference that I perceive "faith and perseverance" are charged to us. See 2Pet1:5-11, we are to be diligent to HAVE fruits like perseverance.


So we can not love others until we love God first.God is love --- I think you're right.


When we reject faith we are rejecting his love and safety. This rejecting the Word of God has a profound impact of the human heart which is not good. Eventually it leads to God giving themselves over to a reprobate mind.

Agreed. And --- God's most basic attitude is in places like Ezk18:31-32 -- He has no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies, but would rather men repent and live.

:-)

Obfuscate
Oct 15th 2013, 08:18 PM
Romans 1-3 clearly lays out that God has given all men a chance yet all men reject God, they all sin and have no excuse. If you look at the examples of the Jews it didn’t matter how much God specifically did for them they continued to sin all the more against him, see Psalm 78. God declared through Jeremiah they all had evil wills:

Jeremiah 16:12 - and because you have done worse than your fathers, for behold, every one of you follows his stubborn, evil will, refusing to listen to me.

Every good gift is from God (James 1:16-18), faith has been dealt to us (Romans 12:3), and granted to us (Philippians 1:29) our sufficiency is from God, not ourselves (1 Corinthians 3:5) without Christ we can do nothing (John 15:5). We receive this faith by hearing the Gospel (Romans 10:17 – 1Thessalonians 1:4-5– Galatians 3:2).

Paul warns about people hindering his message:

1 Thessalonians 2:16 - forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they may be saved, so as always to fill up the measure of their sins; but wrath has come upon them to the uttermost.

Jesus said the sower sows the word and the laborers are few:

Matthew 9:37-38 - Then He said to His disciples, “The harvest truly is plentiful, but the laborers are few. Therefore pray the Lord of the harvest to send out laborers into His harvest.”

There is a Devil, he’s real and he’s not powerless, he blinds and he steals (2 Corinthians 4:3-4 – 1 John 2:11 – John 13:2). Think of a child raised a Muslim in Iran, does anyone really honestly believe he has the same “free will” choice to accept Jesus or have faith the same as a Christian raised in a strong Christian family? Anyone NOT think that’s the work of the Devil? Jesus says in the parable of the sower:

Mark 4:14-15 - The sower sows the word. And these are the ones by the wayside where the word is sown. When they hear, Satan comes immediately and takes away the word that was sown in their hearts.

All men will someday see and be judged by Christ (Revelation 1:7 - 2 Corinthians 5:10 - Romans 14:11-12 - John 12:32), we can only hope and pray they are still able to repent then.

Since you brought up a "Lutheran" on the radio I would like to leave with a quote from Luther:

"I frankly confess that, for myself, even if it could be, I should not want "free-will" to be given to me, nor anything to be justify in my own hands to enable me to endeavor after salvation; not merely because in face of so many dangers, and adversities, and assaults of devils, I could not stand my ground and hold fast my "free-will" (for one devil is stronger than all men, and on these terms no man could be saved); but because, even were there no dangers, adversities, or devils, I should still be forced to labor with no guarantee of success, and to beat my fists at the air..... But now that God has taken my salvation out the control of my own will , and put it under the control of His, and promised to save me, not according to my working or running, but according to His own grace and mercy, I have the comfortable certainty that He is faithful and will not lie to me, and that He is also great and powerful, so that no devils or opposition can break Him or pluck me from Him. "No one," He says, "shall pluck them out of my hand, because my father which gave them me is greater than all" [John 10:28-29]. Thus it is that, if not all, yet some, indeed many, are saved; whereas, by the power of "free-will" none at all could be saved, but every one of us would perish."

Redeemed by Grace
Oct 15th 2013, 08:52 PM
Romans 1-3 clearly lays out that God has given all men a chance yet all men reject God, they all sin and have no excuse. If you look at the examples of the Jews it didn’t matter how much God specifically did for them they continued to sin all the more against him, see Psalm 78. God declared through Jeremiah they all had evil wills:

Jeremiah 16:12 - and because you have done worse than your fathers, for behold, every one of you follows his stubborn, evil will, refusing to listen to me.

Every good gift is from God (James 1:16-18), faith has been dealt to us (Romans 12:3), and granted to us (Philippians 1:29) our sufficiency is from God, not ourselves (1 Corinthians 3:5) without Christ we can do nothing (John 15:5). We receive this faith by hearing the Gospel (Romans 10:17 – 1Thessalonians 1:4-5– Galatians 3:2).

Paul warns about people hindering his message:

1 Thessalonians 2:16 - forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they may be saved, so as always to fill up the measure of their sins; but wrath has come upon them to the uttermost.

Jesus said the sower sows the word and the laborers are few:

Matthew 9:37-38 - Then He said to His disciples, “The harvest truly is plentiful, but the laborers are few. Therefore pray the Lord of the harvest to send out laborers into His harvest.”

There is a Devil, he’s real and he’s not powerless, he blinds and he steals (2 Corinthians 4:3-4 – 1 John 2:11 – John 13:2). Think of a child raised a Muslim in Iran, does anyone really honestly believe he has the same “free will” choice to accept Jesus or have faith the same as a Christian raised in a strong Christian family? Anyone NOT think that’s the work of the Devil? Jesus says in the parable of the sower:

Mark 4:14-15 - The sower sows the word. And these are the ones by the wayside where the word is sown. When they hear, Satan comes immediately and takes away the word that was sown in their hearts.

All men will someday be see judged by Christ (Revelation 1:7 - 2 Corinthians 5:10 - Romans 14:11-12 - John 12:32), we can only hope and pray they are still able to repent then.

Since you brought up a "Lutheran" on the radio I would like to leave with a quote from Luther:

"I frankly confess that, for myself, even if it could be, I should not want "free-will" to be given to me, nor anything to be justify in my own hands to enable me to endeavor after salvation; not merely because in face of so many dangers, and adversities, and assaults of devils, I could not stand my ground and hold fast my "free-will" (for one devil is stronger than all men, and on these terms no man could be saved); but because, even were there no dangers, adversities, or devils, I should still be forced to labor with no guarantee of success, and to beat my fists at the air..... But now that God has taken my salvation out the control of my own will , and put it under the control of His, and promised to save me, not according to my working or running, but according to His own grace and mercy, I have the comfortable certainty that He is faithful and will not lie to me, and that He is also great and powerful, so that no devils or opposition can break Him or pluck me from Him. "No one," He says, "shall pluck them out of my hand, because my father which gave them me is greater than all" [John 10:28-29]. Thus it is that, if not all, yet some, indeed many, are saved; whereas, by the power of "free-will" none at all could be saved, but every one of us would perish."

Nice work in building a sound hermeneutical reply. [But you know that you are now open for a rebuttal and will get it! Stand firm and get ready.... for it's not if, but when :) ]

Obfuscate
Oct 15th 2013, 09:25 PM
Nice work in building a sound hermeneutical reply. [But you know that you are now open for a rebuttal and will get it! Stand firm and get ready.... for it's not if, but when :) ]

LOL, thanks. Gadgeteer has grown on me, I do, however, know what's coming. I just have to trust the readers will take the time to read the posts and verses that are presented and not get caught up in debating in circles or worry who gets the last word.

ewq1938
Oct 16th 2013, 12:05 AM
It's important to also realize that Faith in the Bible is also a verb, not a noun.

It's not about thinking, it's about doing.

Think is also a verb.

ewq1938
Oct 16th 2013, 12:25 AM
I think your thesis is not complete. You still have to deal with the following.

Hebrews 12:2
"Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God."

This merely means Jesus is the inspiration behind people having faith in him. In no way does God choose who gets to have faith and who does not. It is always up to the individual to make their own freely made choice. To finish our faith also merely means that our faith towards him will be rewarded and everything will be completed regarding the promises made to the faithful.




Ephesians 2:8
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:"

In this last one the rules of grammar dictate that faith was the gift.

No it doesn't. The "and that not of yourselves" is called "an aside", meaning a secondary less important statement, like a side comment but within the sentence rather than a notation under it. The subject is what saves someone and it is not our faith that saves us but God's grace. Faith is part of why God would give you grace but it is a secondary thing in this verse while grace is the primary.









Here is what the verse is actually saying:

Ephesians 2:8
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that saving comes not of yourselves (it is not something you can accomplish yourself, ie: you can't save yourself): it (salvation) is the gift of God:"


This is the only rendering and interpretation that makes any sense. Anything else is nonsensical and makes God into a puppet master and we mindless robots that do only as we are programmed.



Example; "The airplane that flew through the sky had a tail, and that, blue." This means that the tail of the airplane was blue not the sky, even if the sky is blue.



You don't have a similar aside:

"The airplane that flew through the sky had a tail, which helps the plane fly more stable, and it was the color blue like the sky."

There is no reason to assume we are only discussing the tail, but discussing the plane with is the proper subject of the sentence. The tail is a secondary thing as it is a small part of the plane.

episkopos
Oct 16th 2013, 02:16 PM
Hi, Episkopos! :wave:

So --- what do you do with all the verses you quoted in your post?


PS:
Peter says "humble yourselves" (1:5:6). James said it (4:10), and Jesus said it (Matt18:3-4). Isn't the act of "humbling oneself", really faith?
:confused:

Humility is an attitude on our part. Sure God has a part in everything. But we can choose the path of humility with His help of course. When it comes to moving mountains however...there is really not much we can do about that. Walking on water falls into that same category methinks..

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

luigi
Oct 16th 2013, 03:42 PM
That's true; and while "believing in God" does not save anyone (James2:19!), it is the beginning of faith-to-salvation.

They do. But there is no such thing as an Atheist --- you can convert almost any Atheist to Agnostic instantly, with the following argument:

"Do you know everything there is to know in the Universe?" (They must answer "no".)

"Do you know HALF of all there is to know in the Universe?" (Again they must answer "no".)

"Would you consider that God could exist in the half YOU DO NOT KNOW?"

And they really have no choice but to admit God could exist --- that is not an "Atheist" position, it is AGNOSTIC. And "Agnostic" is much better than Atheist, it is reachable. An Agnostic is a DOUBTER. Now all that remains for them to admit, is whether they are an HONEST doubter (would like to know if God exists) or a DISHONEST doubter (does not WANT to know about God).

A brilliant argument, heard from TV preacher Adrienne Rogers.

Yes --- but do those find God who seek Him? Or do they seek Him whom God "finds/converts"? Find-by-seeking is clear in Scripture.



Agreed --- well said. "Build yourselves in holy faith, keep yourselves in the love of God" (Jude20-21).

:-)
Hello Gadgeteer,
In another thread, I was arguing about creation and DNA with some atheist/agnostics.
I mentioned to them a book "Probability's Nature and Nature's Probability" A CALL TO SCIENTIFIC INTEGRITY by Donald E. Johnson, PH.D. Chemistry PH.D. Computer and Information Sciences.
In this book Donald Johnson describes numerous scientific methods for confirming an intelligent designer/God necessary for life/DNA to have come about.
The primary reason for this is the numbers are so large (improbable) for life to have come about randomly as Darwinian evolutionists claim.
Donald Johnson quotes dozens of scientists (many of whom are agnostics or atheists) who despite being fully aware of the improbability of life coming about by itself, continue to make claims like: An intelligent designer was necessary for life to be created, but there is still no God.
Go figure, huh?
By the way the agnostics and atheists I was arguing with (who were novices like you and me in regards to DNA), disregarded the information and continued to claim that not even an intelligent designer is necessary for life to come about.. Darwinian evolutionists continue despite the evidence to the contrary.

keck553
Oct 16th 2013, 04:11 PM
Think is also a verb.

No need to play verbal gymnastics, you know what I mean.

Gadgeteer
Oct 16th 2013, 04:22 PM
LOL, thanks. Gadgeteer has grown on me:hug:

I do, however, know what's coming. I just have to trust the readers will take the time to read the posts and verses that are presented and not get caught up in debating in circles or worry who gets the last word.
That would be very kewl. If each of us engage the verses cited, then neither of us can be accused of "doctrines which ignore Scriptures".

:-D

Gadgeteer
Oct 16th 2013, 04:51 PM
Romans 1-3 clearly lays out that God has given all men a chance yet all men reject God, they all sin and have no excuse. If you look at the examples of the Jews it didn’t matter how much God specifically did for them they continued to sin all the more against him, see Psalm 78. God declared through Jeremiah they all had evil wills:

Jeremiah 16:12 - and because you have done worse than your fathers, for behold, every one of you follows his stubborn, evil will, refusing to listen to me.There is a principle in Scripture known as "lamentation". Romans3:10-12 exhibits one --- actually citing Davidic lamentations of Psalm 14 & 53. A "lamentation" is an exaggeration -- classic example is in Genesis6:5, "Men's thoughts were only evil continually" --- but that does not preclude the reality that one man, was righteous and therefore found favor in God's eyes (verses 8-9). "Only-evil-continually" is the lamentation/generalization/exaggeration, Noah was the exception.

In the same way, "no one seeks" of Rom3:11, does not prohibit the reality that those WHO seek God, will FIND Him, He's not far from ANYONE. (Matt7:7 & 14, Acts17:26-31). "Every-one-follows-evil" is another lamentation. There are always some who are faithful to God.


Every good gift is from God (James 1:16-18), faith has been dealt to us (Romans 12:3),Romans12:3 does not assert "exclusive granting of faith", it's just another Semitic View.
and granted to us (Philippians 1:29)Philip1:29 does not assert "exclusive granting of belief to a few" --- indeed, Philip1:9-10 and 2:15-16 are very un-"osas".

By citing these "prooftexts", you consider the other verses (especially the ones in the OP) engaged --- and they are not engaged, they are dismissed. We can't dismiss verses, OB; our doctrines must accommodate all verses. The best doctrine is the one that fits all of Scripture.


our sufficiency is from God, not ourselves (1 Corinthians 3:5)Take 1Cor3:5 ("the Lord gave opportunity to each one") and fit it with Acts17:26-31 --- God makes sure that every last person can seek Him and can FIND Him, He's not far from ANYONE --- all men everywhere are commanded to repent, the Crucifixion is proof to ALL men.

Does your doctrine accommodate Acts17?


without Christ we can do nothing (John 15:5). We receive this faith by hearing the Gospel (Romans 10:17 – 1Thessalonians 1:4-5– Galatians 3:2). "Hearing" the Gospel can affect who believes; but so can reading (studying) --- 2Tim3:15 studying can lead to wisdom (conviction!) that leads to saving-faith (not faith gifted FROM God!), but Jn5:39-47 are those who studied but REFUSED to come to Jesus to have life (because they sought their own glory rather than God's, because they WOULD not believe Moses, because they WOULD not love God). All personal decision by men, not "sovereign decision by God".


Paul warns about people hindering his message:

1 Thessalonians 2:16 - forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they may be saved, so as always to fill up the measure of their sins; but wrath has come upon them to the uttermost.Speak so that they MAY BE saved? Can "speaking" CHANGE who gets saved? YES! Jude23!!!

(Btw, we can also UNSAVE people too --- Rom14:15, 1Cor8:11!!!)


Jesus said the sower sows the word and the laborers are few:

Matthew 9:37-38 - Then He said to His disciples, “The harvest truly is plentiful, but the laborers are few. Therefore pray the Lord of the harvest to send out laborers into His harvest.”Laborers who can AFFECT who gets saved? Yes!


There is a devil, he’s real and he’s not powerless, he blinds and he steals (2 Corinthians 4:3-4 – 1 John 2:11 – John 13:2).Actually no satan does not have that much power. That is "Semitic View" --- does your doctrine accommodate 2Cor3:16? It does not. Does your doctrine include verses 15-16 with Jn13:2? It does not!


Think of a child raised a Muslim in Iran, does anyone really honestly believe he has the same “free will” choice to accept Jesus or have faith the same as a Christian raised in a strong Christian family? Anyone NOT think that’s the work of the devil? Jesus says in the parable of the sower:

Mark 4:14-15 - The sower sows the word. And these are the ones by the wayside where the word is sown. When they hear, satan comes immediately and takes away the word that was sown in their hearts.Again, if satan steals the word, it's because men LET him. Matt13:15 "they close their OWN eyes and ears against belief". Can't change what Jesus said.


All men will someday see and be judged by Christ (Revelation 1:7 - 2 Corinthians 5:10 - Romans 14:11-12 - John 12:32), we can only hope and pray they are still able to repent then. Why hope and pray --- can hope and prayer CHANGE who repents? Scripture says "yes", your doctrine says "no".


Since you brought up a "Lutheran" on the radio I would like to leave with a quote from Luther:

"I frankly confess that, for myself, even if it could be, I should not want "free-will" to be given to me, nor anything to be justify in my own hands to enable me to endeavor after salvation; not merely because in face of so many dangers, and adversities, and assaults of devils, I could not stand my ground and hold fast my "free-will" (for one devil is stronger than all men, and on these terms no man could be saved); but because, even were there no dangers, adversities, or devils, I should still be forced to labor with no guarantee of success, and to beat my fists at the air..... But now that God has taken my salvation out the control of my own will , and put it under the control of His, and promised to save me, not according to my working or running, but according to His own grace and mercy, I have the comfortable certainty that He is faithful and will not lie to me, and that He is also great and powerful, so that no devils or opposition can break Him or pluck me from Him. "No one," He says, "shall pluck them out of my hand, because my father which gave them me is greater than all" [John 10:28-29]. Thus it is that, if not all, yet some, indeed many, are saved; whereas, by the power of "free-will" none at all could be saved, but every one of us would perish."

Then mark out all the "free will" verses --- John7:17, Rev22:17, and all of the "THOSE WHO" verses -- of which there are many. Pretend that John10:28-29 says "No one, not even OURSELVES can remove us from salvation" --- instead of the direct reading "No ONE can FORCE us from His hands" (nothing about leaving by volition). Ignore John10:9 ("tis-ANYONE"), ignore Jn10:38 ("you can believe because of seeing"), ignore Jn20:29 ("you believe BECAUSE you see? Blessed are those who have NOT seen and yet believe"). Ignore Matt13:15-16 ("they close their OWN eyes and ears against belief --- but blessed are YOUR eyes BECAUSE they see!").

What kind of a doctrine is it that is a "doctrine of ignoring-verses"?


I do, however, know what's coming.

Were you right?

;-)

Gadgeteer
Oct 16th 2013, 05:07 PM
This merely means Jesus is the inspiration behind people having faith in him. In no way does God choose who gets to have faith and who does not. It is always up to the individual to make their own freely made choice.Absolutely right.

To finish our faith also merely means that our faith towards him will be rewarded and everything will be completed regarding the promises made to the faithful.The Greek is clear --- "teleiotes", not sovereign finisher but chief example.


No it doesn't. The "and that not of yourselves" is called "an aside", meaning a secondary less important statement, like a side comment but within the sentence rather than a notation under it. The subject is what saves someone and it is not our faith that saves us but God's grace. Faith is part of why God would give you grace but it is a secondary thing in this verse while grace is the primary.Right again --- the subject (the object of "THAT") is the whole opening phrase --- by-grace-through-faith-HAVE-YOU-BEEN-SAVED.



Here is what the verse is actually saying:

Ephesians 2:8
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that saving comes not of yourselves (it is not something you can accomplish yourself, ie: you can't save yourself): it (salvation) is the gift of God:"
Right again. NAS footnotes "that", as "THAT SALVATION".


This is the only rendering and interpretation that makes any sense. Anything else is nonsensical and makes God into a puppet master and we mindless robots that do only as we are programmed.A variant of "Fatalism".


You don't have a similar aside:

"The airplane that flew through the sky had a tail, which helps the plane fly more stable, and it was the color blue like the sky."

There is no reason to assume we are only discussing the tail, but discussing the plane with is the proper subject of the sentence. The tail is a secondary thing as it is a small part of the plane.

Further, the genders do not match --- "touto" (that) is neuter, "pistis" (faith) is feminine; had Paul meant "THAT FAITH", the genders would have matched.


Humility is an attitude on our part. Sure God has a part in everything. But we can choose the path of humility with His help of course. When it comes to moving mountains however...there is really not much we can do about that. Walking on water falls into that same category methinks..

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. And Jesus draws ALL MEN to Himself (Jn12:32), both use the same word "helkuo-draw/drag-forcibly".

Drawing is God's availing salvation to all (God so loved the WORLD that He sent His Son ...that WHOSOEVER believes should not perish but have eternal life".

Faith is our response to God's drawing; salvation is God's response to our faith.

Gadgeteer
Oct 16th 2013, 05:29 PM
Hello Gadgeteer,
In another thread, I was arguing about creation and DNA with some atheist/agnostics.
I mentioned to them a book "Probability's Nature and Nature's Probability" A CALL TO SCIENTIFIC INTEGRITY by Donald E. Johnson, PH.D. Chemistry PH.D. Computer and Information Sciences.
In this book Donald Johnson describes numerous scientific methods for confirming an intelligent designer/God necessary for life/DNA to have come about.
The primary reason for this is the numbers are so large (improbable) for life to have come about randomly as Darwinian evolutionists claim.
Donald Johnson quotes dozens of scientists (many of whom are agnostics or atheists) who despite being fully aware of the improbability of life coming about by itself, continue to make claims like: An intelligent designer was necessary for life to be created, but there is still no God.
Go figure, huh?Absolutely. Evolutionists have magnitudes more faith than I do. Someone asked a prominent Atheist why the doctrine exists, if it was based more on faith than on fact --- he answered honestly, "It's probably sexual. If God exists, then we become answerable to someone outside of ourselves, and cannot engage in all twisted desires we wish."

Get them to discuss the origin of life --- always the "Stanley/Urey Biogenesis Experiment" comes up, where scientists "Created Life in the Lab"! No, they didn't. The experiment (a flask filled with methane, ethane, amonia, nitrogen, water, NO FREE OXYGEN), was subjected to an electric arc supposedly simulating LIGHTNING, and amino acids --- the building blocks for life --- were formed!

Problems:
1. The geological stack shows NO time when oxygen was absent; oxygen poisons the experiment and prevents amino acids.

2. Simple amino acids were produced, not complex life ones; equal quantities of LEFT-handed and RIGHT-handed were produced --- no theory explains how only LEFT-handed ones pulled themselves out of solution to get together.

3. The experiment was NOT closed, it had a circulation system --- experiment was a fraud.

4. The circulation system had an amino-acid TRAP to carefully catch and protect the amino acids, it was STACKED to produce amino acids; the circulation system and trap are non-naturally occurring. Without the trap the destruct rate was billions-to-one. The experiment was a fraud.

Let's pretend the experiment was valid --- and let's pretend that somehow left-handed amino-acids can pull themselves together and produce a living DNA of only ten units wide --- we'll give each unit the probability of simultaneous presentation of one chance in a thousand, TERRIBLY generous. For all ten units to appear together, the probability is therefore 1 x 1030 --- one chance in 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000. This part of the UNIVERSE can contain about that many ELECTRONS. Think that's a large number? It's not --- it is identically ZERO. Because Human DNA is comprised of sequences of four base molecules, A C T and G --- twenty three pairs (forty-six total), each with THREE BILLION COMPONENTS. Imagine the jump in probability from ten, to three billion! TIMES FORTY SIX!

If someone COUNTED to three billion, three per second, no eating or sleeping or bathroom-breaks, it would take him over THIRTY YEARS!

And it gets worse --- a second body evolved at the same time as DNA, "mitochondrea" --- the same exact geological instant. Then a THIRD thing happened, some accident (a rock fell?) and injured the struggling cell, mitochondrea (which evolved SEPARATELY) got inside and both the cell and the mitochondrea discovered they could live together BETTER than separately. Symbiosis. Mitochondrea have different DNA than cells!

Of course, there also is NO way the cell itself could exist, because DNA processes do not happen outside of a cellular wall, and cellular walls are MADE BY DNA! Which came first? You don't get one without the other!

So --- when I say that Atheists have more faith than Christians, it's not just MAGNITUDES more faith, it is (with apology to Buzz) "TO INFINITY AND BEYOND!!!!!

:eek:

If anyone likes the above argument, please donate to my paypal account, "just_teasing@no_email.com".


By the way the agnostics and atheists I was arguing with (who were novices like you and me in regards to DNA), disregarded the information and continued to claim that not even an intelligent designer is necessary for life to come about.. Darwinian evolutionists continue despite the evidence to the contrary.

Yes they do; because, like the Pharisees who claimed "Jesus cast out demons by the PRINCE of demons", there is a need to deny God because of their lust for sin.

Pride. Self-centeredness. The same as Jesus rebuked in Jn5:39-47. Unless one is broken and humbled, he will never turn to Jesus. We do not pray for adversity; but very often hitting rock-bottom is the only thing that will break one sufficiently for God to heal.

Curtis
Oct 16th 2013, 06:18 PM
Please allow me to express my understanding concerning "faith" as a gift.

Obviously God saves man according to his mercy and grace. Yet this grace is something that we must be able access or we could not get saved. Man does not know how to believe in something he can see with out help from God. Faith is required to be able to access this grace. Faith comes by hearing the Word of God, it is always present to give unto man once he makes that decision to act upon the Word. Faith and grace are both gifts from God. I know Gadgeteer believes it is something that man has from himself, and that it is his to use. I believe this is also true, but, Faith always originates from God who gives it as a gift to the person who acts on his Word. Once man acts according to the Word of God, that gift (faith) now belongs to that man. So, now we can see and understand this.....

Jud 1:20 But you, beloved, building yourselves up in your most holy faith and praying in the Holy Spirit,

Gadgeteer
Oct 16th 2013, 06:28 PM
Please allow me to express my understanding concerning "faith" as a gift.Your thoughts are very welcome! :-)


Obviously God saves man according to his mercy and grace. Yet this grace is something that we must be able access or we could not get saved. Man does not know how to believe in something he can see without help from God. Faith is required to be able to access this grace. Faith comes by hearing the Word of God, it is always present to give unto man once he makes that decision to act upon the Word.What's the difference between "making-that-decision", and "faith"? Any?

Not all men have faith (2Thess3:2). Whose fault is that? If "faith" is gifted TO us FROM God, then all faithlessness is GOD'S FAULT. And His judgment (judging men on whether they HAVE faith or not) is false, the Cross is pageantry (for it's really God's DECISION of who gets faith that saves, the Cross merely DEMONSTRATES what God already decided!), and all of reality is just a "screenplay".

But if faith is our decision TO love God, then the Cross is effective, God's judgment is just (and in response TO faith -- Rm3:26!), and those who belong to God enter into a voluntary fellowship of LOVE.

Love must be voluntary, or it is not love! (1Cor13:5!)


Faith and grace are both gifts from God. I know Gadgeteer believes it is something that man has from himself, and that it is his to use. I believe this is also true, but, Faith always originates from God who gives it as a gift to the person who acts on his Word.I don't see a difference between "faith/belief to salvation", and "acts-on-His-word". What is act, if not believe?


Once man acts according to the Word of God, that gift (faith) now belongs to that man. So, now we can see and understand this.....In this thread, verses were cited that teach "faith is man's response TO God." How do you perceive those verses? Why did Jesus say "according to YOUR FAITH be it done to you"?


Jud 1:20 But you, beloved, building yourselves up in your most holy faith and praying in the Holy Spirit,

Excellent citation --- so how does that fit "faith-gifted-by-God", rather than "us-building-ourselves-in-faith"?

Curtis
Oct 16th 2013, 06:46 PM
Your thoughts are very welcome! :-)

What's the difference between "making-that-decision", and "faith"? Any?

Not all men have faith (2Thess3:2). Whose fault is that? If "faith" is gifted TO us FROM God, then all faithlessness is GOD'S FAULT. And His judgment (judging men on whether they HAVE faith or not) is false, the Cross is pageantry (for it's really God's DECISION of who gets faith that saves, the Cross merely DEMONSTRATES what God already decided!), and all of reality is just a "screenplay".

But if faith is our decision TO love God, then the Cross is effective, God's judgment is just (and in response TO faith -- Rm3:26!), and those who belong to God enter into a voluntary fellowship of LOVE.

Love must be voluntary, or it is not love! (1Cor13:5!)

I don't see a difference between "faith/belief to salvation", and "acts-on-His-word". What is act, if not believe?

In this thread, verses were cited that teach "faith is man's response TO God." How do you perceive those verses? Why did Jesus say "according to YOUR FAITH be it done to you"?



Excellent citation --- so how does that fit "faith-gifted-by-God", rather than "us-building-ourselves-in-faith"?

When someone gives you a gift, and you actively receive that gift, that gift now belongs to you. It reminds me of Christmas, I love Christmas!!

keck553
Oct 16th 2013, 06:55 PM
When someone gives you a gift, and you actively receive that gift, that gift now belongs to you. It reminds me of Christmas, I love Christmas!!

wtih the caveat is that you are expected to be a good steward of that gift and not use it to profane the name or character of the one who gave it to you.

Curtis
Oct 16th 2013, 07:05 PM
wtih the caveat is that you are expected to be a good steward of that gift and not use it to profane the name or character of the one who gave it to you.

Absolutely, in fact Jesus tells us that faith is the servant of the believer.

Luk 17:6 And the Lord said, If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye might say unto this sycamine tree, Be thou plucked up by the root, and be thou planted in the sea; and it should obey you.
Luk 17:7 But which of you, having a servant plowing or feeding cattle, will say unto him by and by, when he is come from the field, Go and sit down to meat?
Luk 17:8 And will not rather say unto him, Make ready wherewith I may sup, and gird thyself, and serve me, till I have eaten and drunken; and afterward thou shalt eat and drink?

Our faith produces for us, and when it does, we send it out again to produce more. Feeding our faith is giving it something to do. Faith without works produces nothing.

ewq1938
Oct 16th 2013, 08:29 PM
No need to play verbal gymnastics, you know what I mean.


My point is it isn't wise to "do" without "thinking". Both are important actions.

ewq1938
Oct 16th 2013, 08:34 PM
Absolutely right.
The Greek is clear --- "teleiotes", not sovereign finisher but chief example.

Right again --- the subject (the object of "THAT") is the whole opening phrase --- by-grace-through-faith-HAVE-YOU-BEEN-SAVED.


Right again. NAS footnotes "that", as "THAT SALVATION".

A variant of "Fatalism".



Further, the genders do not match --- "touto" (that) is neuter, "pistis" (faith) is feminine; had Paul meant "THAT FAITH", the genders would have matched.

And Jesus draws ALL MEN to Himself (Jn12:32), both use the same word "helkuo-draw/drag-forcibly".

Drawing is God's availing salvation to all (God so loved the WORLD that He sent His Son ...that WHOSOEVER believes should not perish but have eternal life".

Faith is our response to God's drawing; salvation is God's response to our faith.


Thanks for all of this. As far as this is concerned:


Further, the genders do not match --- "touto" (that) is neuter, "pistis" (faith) is feminine; had Paul meant "THAT FAITH", the genders would have matched.

Could you explain further why these would have to match genders so we non-greek schooled persons can understand better greek grammar and rules?

Also, is "saved" neuter in that verse?


Thanks in advance!

Gadgeteer
Oct 16th 2013, 09:55 PM
Thanks for all of this. As far as this is concerned:


Further, the genders do not match --- "touto" (that) is neuter, "pistis" (faith) is feminine; had Paul meant "THAT FAITH", the genders would have matched.

Could you explain further why these would have to match genders so we non-greek schooled persons can understand better Greek grammar and rules?
Alas, I am no Greek scholar myself; but have participated in enough discussions, and study commentaries. So I defer to noted Greek scholar and Bible commentator A.T.Robertson (http://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/robertsons-word-pictures/ephesians/ephesians-2-8.html), Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament. Robertson is seldom wrong.


For by grace (th gar cariti). Explanatory reason. "By the grace" already mentioned in verse Romans 5 and so with the article. Through faith (dia pistew). This phrase he adds in repeating what he said in verse Romans 5 to make it plainer. "Grace" is God's part, "faith" ours. And that (kai touto). Neuter, not feminine tauth, and so refers not to pisti (feminine) or to cari (feminine also), but to the act of being saved by grace conditioned on faith on our part. Paul shows that salvation does not have its source (ex umwn, out of you) in men, but from God. Besides, it is God's gift (dwron) and not the result of our work.


Also, is "saved" neuter in that verse?"Saved" is not a noun, so is not subject to being feminine or masculine (or neuter! Remember what Bob Barker always said, "Be sure and have your preps spayed or neutered!").


Thanks in advance!

You're welcome!

:-)

(What idiot started the smarmy "no-problem" response instead of "you're welcome"? I like it when people say "you're welcome"!)

ewq1938
Oct 16th 2013, 11:06 PM
"Saved" is not a noun, so is not subject to being feminine or masculine (or neuter! Remember what Bob Barker always said, "Be sure and have your preps spayed or neutered!").

Right....but is there a corresponding, matching gender noun? I suppose grace would be the one?






You're welcome!

:-)

(What idiot started the smarmy "no-problem" response instead of "you're welcome"? I like it when people say "you're welcome"!)


I never understood the confusing, "You're no problem welcome."

I'm what??

Obfuscate
Oct 17th 2013, 12:12 AM
There is a principle in Scripture known as "lamentation". Romans3:10-12 exhibits one --- actually citing Davidic lamentations of Psalm 14 & 53. A "lamentation" is an exaggeration -- classic example is in Genesis6:5, "Men's thoughts were only evil continually" --- but that does not preclude the reality that one man, was righteous and therefore found favor in God's eyes (verses 8-9).

You have a hard time just believing what the Scriptures say when they don’t fit what you want to believe. The Scriptures state over and over through numerous Prophets that they do not know God, do not know good and all sin, it’s not just David that says this but nearly all the Prophets:

Joshua 24:19 - But Joshua said to the people, “You are not able to serve the LORD, for he is a holy God. He is a jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions or your sins.

Exodus 33:3 - Go up to a land flowing with milk and honey; but I will not go up among you, lest I consume you on the way, for you are a stiff-necked people.”

Micah 7:2 - The godly has perished from the earth, and there is no one upright among mankind; they all lie in wait for blood, and each hunts the other with a net.

Jeremiah 4:22 - “For my people are foolish; they know me not; they are stupid children; they have no understanding. They are ‘wise’—in doing evil! But how to do good they know not.”

Psalm 53:1 - The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, doing abominable iniquity; there is none who does good.

I could keep going but this post will already be long enough.

The Old Testament shows us what sin is and that we are all sinners in need of Christ. A Lamentation is nothing about being untrue; its mourning or a complaint. Is the whole book of Lamentations of Jeremiah an "exaggeration"?

The story of Noah doesn’t refute this. Noah may have been the most righteous and blameless of his generation (Genesis 6:9) but it was still God who went to Noah (Genesis 6:13). Noah was still a sinner (Genesis 9:21). Even when there was only righteous Noah and his family left on the whole planet God says:

Genesis 8:21 -And the LORD smelled a soothing aroma. Then the LORD said in His heart, “I will never again curse the ground for man’s sake, although the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth; nor will I again destroy every living thing as I have done.

It’s like Job who was blameless in his generation (Job 1:1), however, he still was a sinner (Job 6:24 – 7:21 – 42:6) who needed a redeemer (Job 9:33-35 – 16:19-21 – 19:24-27).

Romans 3:9 - What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin

Romans 3:23 - for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God


very un-"osas"

I have discussed this with you in numerous threads I do not personally believe, nor does the Lutheran church believe in OSAS. But half your argument is against Calvinism. I don’t have time to debate what I am not saying so let’s stick to what is actually said.


Matthew 7:7 – Matthew 7:14

Matthew 7:7 is about prayer. Matthew 7:14 is true; it isn’t about how one gains Faith though. Like I said, I don’t believe in OSAS. We were slaves to sin (John 8:34 – Romans 6:20), that needed to be freed by Christ (John 8:36 – Galatians 5:1), through the Gospel (Mark 1:5 – Romans 10:17), we can’t use that freedom to cover up evil (1 Peter 2:16).


Actually no satan does not have that much power. That is "Semitic View" --- does your doctrine accommodate 2Cor3:16? Again, if satan steals the word, it's because men LET him.
He clearly does. I believe both verses are true. I am happy to let both verses speak for themselves:

2 Corinthians 3:16-18 - But when one turns to the Lord, the veil is removed. Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.

2 Corinthians 4:3-4 - And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.


Matt13:15

Matthew 13:10-17 is very specifically talking to the 12 Apostles; you can’t tell me I can’t use John 15:16 (you didn’t choose me I chose you) because it’s specific to the Apostles then turn and try to use this verse separate from the Apostles:

‘Then the disciples came and said to him, “Why do you speak to them in parables?” And he answered them, “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given”’


Can't change what Jesus said.

And he said:

Mark 4:14-15 - The sower sows the word. And these are the ones along the path, where the word is sown: when they hear, Satan immediately comes and takes away the word that is sown in them.

Anyone can just look at the real world. A child born in a Muslim family in Iran or Syria take your pick, who is taught to hate Christians and taught Jesus was not the Son of God does not have the same “free will” choice to believe in Jesus as a child raised in a Christian family. Who honestly could not believe that to be true? It is the work of the Devil, the deceiver of the whole world (Revelation 12:9)


When someone gives you a gift, and you actively receive that gift, that gift now belongs to you. It reminds me of Christmas, I love Christmas!!

You may find this 38 second satire video funny.

“Arminian Christmas Guy thinks the best Christmas present you can give someone is letting them give you your Christmas present.”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kSaDqAS-Ti4

Gadgeteer
Oct 17th 2013, 01:47 AM
When someone gives you a gift, and you actively receive that gift, that gift now belongs to you.But the act of "receiving", is "believing" -- that is what "faith" means.


It reminds me of Christmas, I love Christmas!!

I do too. I was at Universal Studios Christmas of 2000, they were playing real Christmas carols over the loudspeakers --- "Joy to the world the Lord had come!"

Really thrilling!

Gadgeteer
Oct 17th 2013, 01:59 AM
Right....but is there a corresponding, matching gender noun? I suppose grace would be the one?Well, there's one subject, and five modifiers to the subject. Subject is the whole opening phrase, "by-grace-through-faith-have-you-been-saved" --- as NAS footnotes it, "that salvation". Two modifiers in the phrase:

● (That salvation) by grace
● (That salvation) through faith
● (That salvation) not of yourselves
● (That salvation) gift of God
● (That salvation) not by works


I never understood the confusing, "You're no problem welcome."

I'm what??

Huh?

When someone says "No problem", I think, "I didn't imagine it was a problem, I was expressing gratitude."

Maybe it's from Spanish --- "Thank you", "por nada!" (For nothing!)

Eyelog
Oct 17th 2013, 02:53 AM
I heard a Lutheran radio preacher teaching on how “faith is a gift from God”. He said something like “Faith is God’s gift, as He lavishes His grace upon us!”

Upon us? Us who? Who ultimately decides which man has faith, and which receives God’s grace?

In Matt8 (verses 5-13), a Centurion believed Jesus could just say the word and his servant would be healed. Jesus said, ”I have not seen such faith with anyone in Israel; be it done as you have believed.”

Jesus was amazed at how much faith the Centurion HAD? Does this sound like a reaction under the premise that “faith is given BY God TO men”? Why would Jesus remark on the man’s level of faith, if that level of faith was decided by GOD?

”Daughter, take courage; your faith has made you well.” Matt9:22

“Be it done to you according to your faith.” Matt9:29

How do these make sense if faith is GOD-GIFTED? God gives faith to a few, and then rewards the few for having the faith God DECIDED? How does that make sense?

”Without faith it is impossible to please God; for he who comes to God must believe God IS (must come BY faith!), and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him. By faith Noah, being warned by God about things not yet seen, in reverence prepared an ark …and became an heir of the righteousness which is in accordance TO FAITH.” Heb11:6-7

Faith? In reverence prepared (responded!)? What does Hebrews say --- that faith is given BY God TO certain men? Or that faith is a reverent response TO God? Faith is a response, isn’t it?

”God is not partial (biased/unjust), but in every nation the man WHO reveres Him and does right is WELCOME to Him.” Acts10:34-35

Here again is God responding TO reverence (and righteousness-seeking). Peter clearly saying that God welcoming/choosing those who do NOT revere/seek, is bias/partiality/unjustness that God is NOT.

”God is just and justifier of he who has faith in Jesus.” Rom3:26

Here is another occurrence of the idea of “justness”, placing it subordinate to faith. So faith is man’s response to God, and salvation is God’s response to FAITH!


”Receive as the outcome of YOUR FAITH salvation!” 1Pet1:9


There are (at least) two schools of thought on God’s perspective --- one, that God (who created all men) selects a few on whom He SHEDS His grace, giving them both grace and the faith to be saved --- and the other that God sheds His grace on all men, drawing each and every to where he (she?) can believe and be saved but each makes the decision.

”Do you think lightly of the riches of God’s kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God --- who will render to every man according to his works. To those WHO by perseverance in doing good seek glory and honor and immortality, (they receive) eternal life. But to those WHO are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, (they receive) wrath and indignation.” Rom2:4-8

In no way can Romans2:4-8 permit the idea that God only shows grace to a FEW, and GIVES them the faith to be saved. No, God’s kindness leads men to salvation, but each can decide to refuse and pursue sin instead, and therefore receive wrath (Hell). Salvation is the CONSEQUENCE of faith, and faith is men’s response to God!

”For God so loved the WORLD …that WHOSOEVER believes should not perish but have eternal life!” Jn3:16
“For God did not send the Son to condemn the world, but so that the world might be saved through Him.” Jn3:17

“God has ...mercy on ALL MEN.” Rm11:32

“The grace of God has appeared bringing salvation to ALL MEN”. Titus2:11

“God has decreed to men that all everywhere should REPENT, …having furnished proof to all men by raising Jesus from the dead.” Acts17:30-31

Verse after verse portraying “faith” as a decision, a response to God, not a gift FROM God. How can any of these verses ever fit the idea that “God gives faith to salvation”?

Why does it matter? Well, if faith is given BY God, then our believing is HIS choice and HIS responsibility --- both “beginning faith”, and “ending faith” --- our perseverance is solely God’s function, and we are passive recipients of His favor! But Scripture is replete with warnings for US to abide, and “save ourselves” (1Tim4:16), to be diligent to make our salvation firm by possessing fruits like perseverance so that the gates of eternity BE provided to us (2Pet1:5-11), to abide in Jesus (guarding against deceivers!) SO THAT we not shrink in shame from our sin when He returns! 1Jn2:26-28!

Another thing --- go back to Acts10:34-35 --- for GOD to decide which man gets saved and give faith to a FEW, casts God as “biased/unjust”! It assigns the ultimate choice of BOTH salvation and sin/reprobation of men to God, impugning His character! Doesn’t matter whether God actively causes sin (“double-predestination”), or ordains sin by neglect, it’s still His CHOICE that whoever perishes, perishes.

Romans1:17 says the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; meaningless, unless we go to the Greek. Two words are used, both from the root of “faith” --- noted Bible commentator A.T.Robertson defers to Lightfoot, “faith the start, and faith the goal.”

”The righteousness of God is revealed from BEGINNING faith to ENDING faith --- as it is written, the righteous shall live BY faith.”

It is our choice how to begin, and it is our choice how to end. To perceive that “faith is gifted by God” is to become apathetic towards our relationship with Christ; it is after all, fully HIS function, is it not? And Scripture says “it is not” --- we abide in Him, BY our faith. We use His power to overcome our sin, but by our perseverance. His strength, our abiding. We “BUILD OURSELVES in faith, and KEEP OURESLVES in His love” (Jude20-21)!

Thus we see the issue is critical to our whole perspective and walk! Does ANY relationship we have flourish without time and commitment, without communication and fellowship? NO! God is no different --- do we spend time with Him, do we seek His power and His righteousness to fill us and overflow onto the world? Do we PURSUE Him as we would a Human whom we love? We are commanded to love God --- a command that is complete nonsense if GOD decides who gets faith, and who will love Him!

We decide; and not just once, but every moment of every day.


Can anyone find any verses to oppose the idea of “faith being the response to God”? Or explain the cited verses here? Discussions here of this kind have caused hard feelings in the past, even threads to be shut down; I am confident in all of you that we each can embody 1Jn4:20, and even if we do not come to agreement on everything we can discuss with kindness and love. That as the world watches (and they do!), they will see Christ in us, sufficient that they will want what we have.

"In all things show yourselves to be examples of good deeds, with purity in doctrine, dignified, sound in speech which is beyond reproach, in order that the opponent may be put to shame, having nothing bad to say about us." Titus2:7-8

Let us agree that the opponent is he who opposes JESUS, not any one of "we who claim to be His"!

I look forward to a good discussion that will make all of us think, make us more mature in Christ, deeper in fellowship with each other, and only bring glory and honor to Him whom we serve!

Excellent post, Gadgeteer, but Walls is correct that you could have written a more complete thesis, encompassing every verse of the Canon, at least. ... you should be more gentle with him, bc he only asked you to deal with them, though.

But the latter posts have something significant to say as well.

Perhaps you can expand your doctoral thesis to accommodate those points as well, reconciling them with your position.

ewq1938
Oct 17th 2013, 03:22 AM
Huh?

When someone says "No problem", I think, "I didn't imagine it was a problem, I was expressing gratitude."

Maybe it's from Spanish --- "Thank you", "por nada!" (For nothing!)


I was just making a joke :)

keck553
Oct 17th 2013, 04:16 AM
My point is it isn't wise to "do" without "thinking". Both are important actions.

Ya got me there....that"s twice in one day.

ewq1938
Oct 17th 2013, 04:21 AM
Ya got me there....that"s twice in one day.

I understood what I think you were trying to say but that clever thing about "doing rather than mere thinking" is flawed when you look at it closer. That's all I am trying to show here.

Walls
Oct 17th 2013, 07:37 AM
Gadgeteer,

I promised to back off after my last request, which you have gone to a length to answer. I have also had a few gruelling days of work which made my participation in this thread less than it should have been. First, I must say that you have argued well and I have learned much from the discussion. As the truth is all that matters, I am always prepared to change my position (as I have had to do many times over the last 30 years as new information is released by the Holy Spirit to the individual). I have been on my knees before The Lord and prayerfully considered your arguments. The following is the reason that I am not convinced enough to change my position (yet).

(1) Your opening post in this thread produced good logical argument. But there was one fact that you left out and which would allow the negating of your conclusion. That is, God's "Foreknowledge". In Romans 8 for instance, it is only those who God foreknew that are predestined, not to salvation, but to be transformed to Christ's image. In your argument you are correct concerning the requirement of the man to exercise HIS faith. But if the faith is given based on God's foreknowledge, then (i) He does not violate righteousness if some men have not been given a measure, and (ii) all your arguments are still true without the thesis that faith had to abide in all men as an attribute. If you disagree, then you will be compelled to apply the same logic to Romans 8 and say the predestination to be conformed to Christ's image was unrighteous as well. And further, in every case where God makes a choice regarding men, you will have to apply the same logic. That is, God makes one man a genius and another dull. He chooses Israel and not another nation. He makes one man king and another servant of the king.

(2) In Mark 9:24; "Immediately the father of the child cried out and said with tears, 'Lord, I believe; help my unbelief!'", it is clear that the man needed an outside force to enable faith. Likewise, why would we need an author and finisher of our faith in the Person of Jesus Christ?

(3) You have yet to show why, if all men possess faith as an intrinsic attribute, they do not believe in most cases. Even Israel, with all the signs and wonders, with all they experienced in their walk with God, are accused of "unbelief", and must wait until they see the One they pierced to embrace Him.

(4) Your last argument, that on Romans 12:3, seriously undermined your position in my view. It might be that men have devised ways and names of ways to explain away a difficulty in scripture, but Romans 12:3 is a direct statement, and would be perfectly true if faith is given on the basis of foreknowledge. It is true that scripture states equally clearly that while Pharaoh hardened his heart, it was God who hardened it. I do not say that this does not present a difficulty, but if God, who is sovereign in the affairs of men, needed Pharaoh not to wilt until He had the opportunity to avenge all the male children of Moses' era, He could influence Pharaoh to prolong his hardness. In this case Pharaoh's heart was hard and God added a measure to prolong the hardness. But in Romans 12:3 the only counter to this direct statement is your thesis.

(5) Your answer concerning "the gift of faith" being disallowed as an argument because it was a "spiritual gift" I cannot accept because faith is still the same thing, whether given in extra measure for the building of the saints or the believing in things divine.

(6) In your answer concerning Matthew 16 and Peter's revelation, I also cannot accept your counter. The recognition of Person of Jesus is the crux of salvation and rebirth. Peter obviously could not have come to this recognition by himself. The text goes further to say that nothing of a man (flesh and blood) can reveal this. It needs divine input.

Finally, what is a relief in this dispute is the fact that whether you or I am wrong will not change our status before The Lord. We, and most of the other participants, and many of the readers, have already made the great jump of faith and an erroneous view of where that faith came from is moot. But thanks for the educated arguments and, who knows, I might yet change my thoughts on the subject.

Eyelog
Oct 17th 2013, 01:27 PM
Gadgeteer,

I promised to back off after my last request, which you have gone to a length to answer. I have also had a few gruelling days of work which made my participation in this thread less than it should have been. First, I must say that you have argued well and I have learned much from the discussion. As the truth is all that matters, I am always prepared to change my position (as I have had to do many times over the last 30 years as new information is released by the Holy Spirit to the individual). I have been on my knees before The Lord and prayerfully considered your arguments. The following is the reason that I am not convinced enough to change my position (yet).

(1) Your opening post in this thread produced good logical argument. But there was one fact that you left out and which would allow the negating of your conclusion. That is, God's "Foreknowledge". In Romans 8 for instance, it is only those who God foreknew that are predestined, not to salvation, but to be transformed to Christ's image. In your argument you are correct concerning the requirement of the man to exercise HIS faith. But if the faith is given based on God's foreknowledge, then (i) He does not violate righteousness if some men have not been given a measure, and (ii) all your arguments are still true without the thesis that faith had to abide in all men as an attribute. If you disagree, then you will be compelled to apply the same logic to Romans 8 and say the predestination to be conformed to Christ's image was unrighteous as well. And further, in every case where God makes a choice regarding men, you will have to apply the same logic. That is, God makes one man a genius and another dull. He chooses Israel and not another nation. He makes one man king and another servant of the king.

(2) In Mark 9:24; "Immediately the father of the child cried out and said with tears, 'Lord, I believe; help my unbelief!'", it is clear that the man needed an outside force to enable faith. Likewise, why would we need an author and finisher of our faith in the Person of Jesus Christ?

(3) You have yet to show why, if all men possess faith as an intrinsic attribute, they do not believe in most cases. Even Israel, with all the signs and wonders, with all they experienced in their walk with God, are accused of "unbelief", and must wait until they see the One they pierced to embrace Him.

(4) Your last argument, that on Romans 12:3, seriously undermined your position in my view. It might be that men have devised ways and names of ways to explain away a difficulty in scripture, but Romans 12:3 is a direct statement, and would be perfectly true if faith is given on the basis of foreknowledge. It is true that scripture states equally clearly that while Pharaoh hardened his heart, it was God who hardened it. I do not say that this does not present a difficulty, but if God, who is sovereign in the affairs of men, needed Pharaoh not to wilt until He had the opportunity to avenge all the male children of Moses' era, He could influence Pharaoh to prolong his hardness. In this case Pharaoh's heart was hard and God added a measure to prolong the hardness. But in Romans 12:3 the only counter to this direct statement is your thesis.

(5) Your answer concerning "the gift of faith" being disallowed as an argument because it was a "spiritual gift" I cannot accept because faith is still the same thing, whether given in extra measure for the building of the saints or the believing in things divine.

(6) In your answer concerning Matthew 16 and Peter's revelation, I also cannot accept your counter. The recognition of Person of Jesus is the crux of salvation and rebirth. Peter obviously could not have come to this recognition by himself. The text goes further to say that nothing of a man (flesh and blood) can reveal this. It needs divine input.

Finally, what is a relief in this dispute is the fact that whether you or I am wrong will not change our status before The Lord. We, and most of the other participants, and many of the readers, have already made the great jump of faith and an erroneous view of where that faith came from is moot. But thanks for the educated arguments and, who knows, I might yet change my thoughts on the subject.

Walls, you raise excellent questions.

Asking the right questions is necessary to get the right answers.

Furthermore, I appreciate your tentative approach, expressing your theory while inviting greater insight.

I would offer that Faith requires some level of knowledge of the subject matter. That knowledge of spiritual matters can only come via revelation. But the knowledge is incomplete, because it's not faith if we are not taking a risk that we are wrong. But who has faith in what they do not to some degree expect to be true?

I submit further that it is this willingness to take the risk or leap of faith which is the response we are responsible for, even as God is responsible for the level of knowledge we have received as a prerequisite to our response.

percho
Oct 17th 2013, 03:00 PM
Walls, you raise excellent questions.

Asking the right questions is necessary to get the right answers.

Furthermore, I appreciate your tentative approach, expressing your theory while inviting greater insight.

I would offer that Faith requires some level of knowledge of the subject matter. That knowledge of spiritual matters can only come via revelation. But the knowledge is incomplete, because it's not faith if we are not taking a risk that we are wrong. But who has faith in what they do not to some degree expect to be true?

I submit further that it is this willingness to take the risk or leap of faith which is the response we are responsible for, even as God is responsible for the level of knowledge we have received as a prerequisite to our response.

Are those two not an oxymoron?

Eyelog
Oct 17th 2013, 03:19 PM
Are those two not an oxymoron?

Percho, I might be, bc I am not seeing what you are saying yet. Please draw me a picture. : )

Gadgeteer
Oct 17th 2013, 03:21 PM
You have a hard time just believing what the Scriptures say when they don’t fit what you want to believe.Vice-versa, my friend. In the OP (and several subsequent) we proved that faith is something men decide, and God receives --- that salvation is the RESPONSE to our faith.


"Receive as the outcome of YOUR FAITH salvation." 1Pet1:9

All those times Jesus said "According to YOUR faith", and "never have I SEEN such faith" --- just does not fit "faith-gifted/decided from GOD". But no one will answer or engage those verses, they'll say things like you just said, "Just believe what the Scriptures SAY".. We are --- as demonstrated by the numerous citations. When the other side will not engage the verses but state "the Bible supports our view", there is no credibility, is there? It's one thing to SAY a specific position "is supported by Scripture" --- but what good is SAYING that when the cited Scriptures prove the opposite and the cited Scriptures will NOT be engaged?


The Scriptures state over and over through numerous Prophets that they do not know God, do not know good and all sin, it’s not just David that says this but nearly all the Prophets:

Joshua 24:19 - But Joshua said to the people, “You are not able to serve the LORD, for he is a holy God. He is a jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions or your sins.Why say that? Why rebuke them, for what they CANNOT change? Look at Isaiah5:1-7 --- God planted a vineyard (Israel) and EXPECTED it to yield good fruit, but it did not. Look at Isaiah65 --- all day long God reached out His hands to a rebellious people who do what God does NOT want -- therefore He will destine them for the sword because He called and they WOULD not answer, because they walked in a way that He DID not want?

What's wrong with God, OB? If He wanted them to walk in a certain way, if He wanted them to be FRUITFUL, why didn't He just GIVE them the faith to DO it???

Because God DOES NOT GIVE FAITH!


You have a hard time just believing what the Scriptures say when they don’t fit what you want to believe.Yes, you do! :-/


Exodus 33:3 - Go up to a land flowing with milk and honey; but I will not go up among you, lest I consume you on the way, for you are a stiff-necked people.”Why didn't He GIVE them the faith to CHANGE them?


Micah 7:2 - The godly has perished from the earth, and there is no one upright among mankind; they all lie in wait for blood, and each hunts the other with a net.There is NO one upright, NO one who does good (except the SINNERS WHO DO GOOD, Luke6:33!). There is NO one who seeks (except THOSE WHO SEEK, Matt7:7 & 14, Heb11:6! Acts17:26-31 says God puts EVERYONE where they can seek and CAN FIND Him, He's NOT FAR from ANYONE!


You have a hard time just believing what the Scriptures say when they don’t fit what you want to believe.No one can believe what the Scriptures say when they will not CONSIDER all verses, including ones cited on an internet forum!


Jeremiah 4:22 - “For my people are foolish; they know me not; they are stupid children; they have no understanding. They are ‘wise’—in doing evil! But how to do good they know not.”You pull out verses that fit your view --- but you WILL NOT engage even the immediate context.

Jeremiah 4:1 --- "If you WILL RETURN Oh Israel!"
Jeremiah4:4 "CIRCUMCISE YOURSELVES and (change) your hearts Or My wrath will BURN..."
Jeremiah4:8 "PUT on sackcloth (repent!) for the fierce anger of the Lord..."
Jer4:14 "WASH your hearts that you MAY BE SAVED -- how long WILL YOU BE WICKED?"

But you're there pounding on the platform of "THEY CANNOT TURN/CHANGE unless God GIFTS them faith!"


Psalm 53:1 - The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, doing abominable iniquity; there is none who does good.Then Jesus lied in Luke6:33, "SINNERS DO GOOD". Look at Jer13:23, "You CAN do good who are accustomed to doing EVIL!"


I could keep going but this post will already be long enough.I wish you WOULD keep going --- long enough to start engaging these verses!


You have a hard time just believing what the Scriptures say when they don’t fit what you want to believe.


The Old Testament shows us what sin is and that we are all sinners in need of Christ. A Lamentation is nothing about being untrue; it's mourning or a complaint. Is the whole book of Lamentations of Jeremiah an "exaggeration"? Psalm 14 and 53 are "generalizations". We've discussed Genesis 6:5, "Men's thoughts were ONLY evil continually". But then how was ONE man (Noah!) righteous and therefore FOUND favor with God? (Genesis6:8-9) The generalization did NOT prohibit the exception, caused by Noah's OWN FAITH!


The story of Noah doesn’t refute this. Noah may have been the most righteous and blameless of his generation (Genesis 6:9) but it was still God who went to Noah (Genesis 6:13). Noah was still a sinner (Genesis 9:21).God did NOT go to Noah before Noah had FAITH.


Even when there was only righteous Noah and his family left on the whole planet God says:

Genesis 8:21 -And the LORD smelled a soothing aroma. Then the LORD said in His heart, “I will never again curse the ground for man’s sake, although the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth; nor will I again destroy every living thing as I have done.

It’s like Job who was blameless in his generation (Job 1:1), however, he still was a sinner (Job 6:24 – 7:21 – 42:6) who needed a redeemer (Job 9:33-35 – 16:19-21 – 19:24-27).

Romans 3:9 - What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin

Romans 3:23 - for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of GodYou are citing the standard "prooftexts" used for "sovereign predestined-salvation/gifted-faith". Saved people still struggle with flesh; John says if we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves. We (the saved) walk in repentance and strive by His power NOT to sin; the unsaved walk in sin.


I have discussed this with you in numerous threads I do not personally believe, nor does the Lutheran church believe in OSAS. But half your argument is against Calvinism. I don’t have time to debate what I am not saying so let’s stick to what is actually said.Doesn't matter if someone says they are not "OSAS" --- if faith is a gift from God, the salvation is ordained and sovereignly wrought. That is "OSAS". To argue against "gifted-faith", is to argue against Calvinism.


Matthew 7:7 is about prayer.No, it's about "seeking God and salvation". Seeking is believing (is faith).
Matthew 7:14 is true; it isn’t about how one gains Faith though.Oh yes it is -- few are those who find salvation by SEEKING. Heurisko.


Like I said, I don’t believe in OSAS. We were slaves to sin (John 8:34 – Romans 6:20), that needed to be freed by Christ (John 8:36 – Galatians 5:1), through the Gospel (Mark 1:5 – Romans 10:17), we can’t use that freedom to cover up evil (1 Peter 2:16).We are freed through faith --- if faith is "gifted", then we are freed by monergistic ordination (Calvinism).


Actually no satan does not have that much power. That is "Semitic View" --- does your doctrine accommodate 2Cor3:16? Again, if satan steals the word, it's because men LET him. He clearly does. I believe both verses are true. I am happy to let both verses speak for themselves:

2 Corinthians 3:16-18 - But when one turns to the Lord, the veil is removed. Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.[/quote]Plainly stated "turning" (faith/belief!!!) comes BEFORE veil-lifting. Under "gifted-faith" God must sovereignly, monergistically LIFT the veil (regenerate!) and THEN a person WILL turn to Him (Calvinism).

Turning-BELIEVING comes before veil-removal. satan does NOT have the power to close hearts/eyes/ears --- Jesus said men close their OWN eyes and ears against salvation. Matt13:15-16!

"Blessed are YOUR eyes BECAUSE (you have NOT closed them and) you see!"


2 Corinthians 4:3-4 - And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God."Anthropomorphism/Semitic-view" --- satan does not have the power to actively BLOCK salvation from anyone. Proof of that is belief/turning comes BEFORE veil-removal.

If satan had the power to VEIL hearts and PREVENT salvation, that by definition means God would have to UNVEIL a heart (give faith!) and only THEN could one turn to God. That's why 2:3:16 overturns "gifted-faith"


Matthew 13:10-17 is very specifically talking to the 12 Apostles; you can’t tell me I can’t use John 15:16 (you didn’t choose me I chose you) because it’s specific to the Apostles then turn and try to use this verse separate from the Apostles:

‘Then the disciples came and said to him, “Why do you speak to them in parables?” And he answered them, “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given”’
To he who HAS is it given --- in the same way that "turning-to-God" comes before "heart-veil-removal" (2Cor3:16), one has to HAVE SALVATION, before getting deeper things like parable-explanations. But "close-their-eyes" in Matt13:15 is citing Isaiah6:10; and it refers to everyone.


And he said:

Mark 4:14-15 - The sower sows the word. And these are the ones along the path, where the word is sown: when they hear, [B]Satan immediately comes and takes away the word that is sown in them.

Anyone can just look at the real world. A child born in a Muslim family in Iran or Syria take your pick, who is taught to hate Christians and taught Jesus was not the Son of God does not have the same “free will” choice to believe in Jesus as a child raised in a Christian family. Who honestly could not believe that to be true? It is the work of the Devil, the deceiver of the whole world (Revelation 12:9)And even in muslim countries one can decide NOT to be deceived. There are many stories about the Spirit speaking to hearts in the midst of Islam --- I remember one where a kid received a copy of John's Gospel and it changed his whole reality. Sadly, the preacher who gave it to him ended up executed, and the demands of the kid's father (who found and destroyed the printing) for him to never think about it again did not work. The kid was sent to India for college, and sat in on a Christian presentation --- the SECOND day, though the young man did not know a WORD of the language, he understood everything they said and received Jesus!

Sometimes the "gift of tongues", is really a gift of EARS.


You may find this 38 second satire video funny.

“Arminian Christmas Guy thinks the best Christmas present you can give someone is letting them give you your Christmas present.”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kSaDqAS-Ti4

I can't seem to get sound. But the discussion is interesting:

"I don't get this, care to explain?"
"Those who espouse decision theology believe that Christ doesn't really become your savior until you choose to believe in him, thus making the key element in your salvation your acceptance of the gift, rather than God's giving of it."

"Decision Theology" --- Deuteronomy says "I have set before you life and death ...so CHOOSE LIFE by loving the Lord your God, by obeying His voice and walking in His statutes and by holding fast to Him."

And your position discounts "Decision Theology", proposing that it is GOD'S decision --- which is "Calvinism", but you're not a Calvinist. So you say.

Gadgeteer
Oct 17th 2013, 03:30 PM
Excellent post, Gadgeteer, but Walls is correct that you could have written a more complete thesis, encompassing every verse of the Canon, at least. ... you should be more gentle with him, bc he only asked you to deal with them, though.Hi, Eyelog. I'm always delighted to hear suggestions on how I can be more gentle with people. :-)


But the latter posts have something significant to say as well.

Perhaps you can expand your doctoral thesis to accommodate those points as well, reconciling them with your position.

What points?

percho
Oct 17th 2013, 03:31 PM
Percho, I might be, bc I am not seeing what you are saying yet. Please draw me a picture. : )

Faith is, the substance, the evidence. Faith is an absolute. Willingness to take a chance of risk something isn't an absolute.

Gene Dale
Oct 17th 2013, 05:57 PM
This is my understanding of it. Grace is the thing God is giving. To believe in that, (to which there is ample evidence given to each person), it will take faith, not a blind faith mind you.... faith is the thing hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

example:

A man is drowning miles out in the middle of the ocean, desiring to be rescued, when a boat comes along and freely offers him a rope. The drowning man grabs the rope. The boat is too high for the man to climb aboard, so instead the boat simply drags the man to shore to be saved. Now, the man did not save himself, all he can do is continue to hold on. His desire will allow for this continual state. The man can now in the present say, "i have been saved", concerning the past, he has been given salvation, but he still has a part to play, this is his justification. Man's knowledge of time is finite you see, he's not quite to shore yet. As he continues to hold on, he is continually being saved (still in the present)...this is his sanctification as the shore gets closer. The anticipation of his arrive to shore is his hope. He must have faith, and never let go. How wonderful, and good, his savior is. As with man and sin, Christ is our life boat, and our hope is in His glorification for His plan of salvation.

Grace is what was freely given by the boat. The drowning man did not "earn" his rescue, although he did play a part. It is God's will that we play our part in doing His will, that no man should perish, but have everlasting life. You are a moral agent. Free will must not be broken if the law of love is to be fulfilled.

Romans 8:24 (KJV) For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

Acts 15:11 (KJV) But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

1 Corinthians 1:18 (KJV) For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.



Im hoping i didnt mutilate that analogy too bad.

Oregongrown
Oct 17th 2013, 06:27 PM
My bible says this about faith:

Romans 10:17

New King James Version (NKJV)

17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

commentary by Henry Morris

i. “Hearing is a reflection of first-century life. Paul does not raise the possibility of the message being read. While there were people who could read, the ordinary first-century citizen depended rather on being able to hear something.” (Henry Morris (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_M._Morris))

Gadgeteer
Oct 17th 2013, 06:35 PM
Gadgeteer,

I promised to back off after my last request, which you have gone to a length to answer. I have also had a few gruelling days of work which made my participation in this thread less than it should have been. First, I must say that you have argued well and I have learned much from the discussion.:-)


As the truth is all that matters, I am always prepared to change my position (as I have had to do many times over the last 30 years as new information is released by the Holy Spirit to the individual). I have been on my knees before The Lord and prayerfully considered your arguments. The following is the reason that I am not convinced enough to change my position (yet).

(1) Your opening post in this thread produced good logical argument. But there was one fact that you left out and which would allow the negating of your conclusion. That is, God's "Foreknowledge". In Romans 8 for instance, it is only those who God foreknew that are predestined, not to salvation, but to be transformed to Christ's image.VERY excellently stated --- I commend you on correctly recognizing what the "predestination" is, in Paul's words --- not to salvation, but to Christlikeness. :thumbsup:

What remains to be established then, is what "foreknowledge" means.

Consider Romans8:28 begins the teaching, with "Those who love God". Jesus said the Greatest Commandment is to love God --- it is a command issued as if men can OBEY it.


"You shall LOVE the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your mind, and with all your soul; on these two (w/ "love your neighbor") all the Law and Prophets are based."

You correctly recognize that the only "predestination" asserted in Rom8:28-35, is to be Christlike; so what is the cause of that position?

Let's consider John6:37:


"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out."

This verse is also used in arguments for "predestination", or "gifted-faith"; the understanding that unbelieving men are given to Jesus and THEN they believe. What is at issue is the question of sequence --- does "given" come before, or coincidentally with belief?

John17:6 links directly with John6:37, 39, 44, and 65:


"Father, those You have given Me out of the world --- they were Yours, and You gave them to Me."

Here "belonging to God" precedes "given to Jesus". Noted Calvinist R.C.Sproul recognizes the connection between Jn6:37 and 17:6, but perceives "Thine-they-were" to mean by sovereign predestination (before belief!).

So back to Romans8 --- does man's response to the command to "love God" lead to His "foreknowing them", or does He "foreknow certain men" which leads to their belief and Christlikeness? That is the issue.

proginōskō:
.....1. to have knowledge before hand

The Greek Lexicon on "proginosko" from Rom8:29, simply means "to have knowledge before". So it fits perfectly that men can believe, this will be known-before by God, but it is man's ANSWER to the commandment of "loving God" which places him on the path to Christlikeness. The alternative --- that is, that God foreknows in the sense of sovereign predestination/ordaining/deciding makes the commandment to love Him ridiculous; He would be issuing the command with His RIGHT hand, but placing men in the position OF loving Him (or not!) with His LEFT hand. It would make the command false, we cannot command a blond to be a brunette, nor can we command a brunette to be a redhead; those are characteristics a person does not decide before he has them. Same with God --- He commands men to love Him, commands "all men everywhere to repent" (Acts17:30), dictates which are silly if He's really making all the decisions.


"If God was your Father, then you would love Me". John8:42

If God was your Father --- what did Jesus mean? If they had OBEYED the command to love and belong to God, THEN they would be given to Jesus! And thus John17:6 connects to John8:42 and connects to John6:37. Those whom the Father gives Jesus ARE BELIEVERS (John14 says to believe in God is to believe in Him!), "given" therefore denoting "believing"! Those who answer the command to "love God" therefore believe in Jesus, and BELIEVERS HE WILL NOT CAST OUT. In no way do these verses address the possibility of CEASING to believe.

Look at Lydia, Acts16:14-15 -- She was a WORSHIPER of God ("They were Yours"), and her heart was opened to Jesus ("AND You gave them to Me!"). It's the same as with Cornelius, Acts10; he was a solid and devout believer and worshiper of God, THEREFORE he was open to believing in Jesus!


In your argument you are correct concerning the requirement of the man to exercise HIS faith. But if the faith is given based on God's foreknowledge,That if the faith is not given to the man at all, but received BY God? That still fits the idea of "foreknowledge", perfectly. Again, if faith is "given", then the command "to love God" is false.


...then (i) He does not violate righteousness if some men have not been given a measure,Yes, He does (violate righteousness) --- for men's sin would still be God's sovereign ORDAINING, whether He's directly causal or indirectly causal by neglect -- their perishing is still the full result of His WILL and ORDAINING, and He is unjust and unrighteous!


and (ii) all your arguments are still true without the thesis that faith had to abide in all men as an attribute. If you disagree, then you will be compelled to apply the same logic to Romans 8 and say the predestination to be conformed to Christ's image was unrighteous as well.Not if that "predestination" is the consequence of men's individual choice TO love God.

So --- to someone for whom "predestination" is an old teaching, it is difficult to understand how "predestination" (which per Eph1:4-5 & 11 sounds like it happened BEFORE TIME), could follow and be subordinate to "belief"? First look at John1:13 --- our BEGOTTENNESS is all of God and nothing of us --- but verse 12 says our right to BECOME begotten-children-of-God is not granted until AFTER belief.

In 1Peter1:20-21 Jesus was "foreknown before the foundation of the world", and has appeared for the sake of those who through Him are believers in God. The plan of salvation (Jesus' death and resurrection, our salvation by His grace through our faith) is what was ordained before time; by our conscious and volitional love, we join that predestined-plan and become likewise predestined (THROUGH our faith!) to Christlikeness.

Makes perfect sense to me; does it to you?


And further, in every case where God makes a choice regarding men, you will have to apply the same logic. That is, God makes one man a genius and another dull. He chooses Israel and not another nation. He makes one man king and another servant of the king.I would love to discuss the idea of "THOSE WHO" with you, if you are willing. There are many verses which speak of "those-who" in terms of personal salvation, but I have not found any which assert "GOD who".

Whaddya think?


(2) In Mark 9:24; "Immediately the father of the child cried out and said with tears, 'Lord, I believe; help my unbelief!'", it is clear that the man needed an outside force to enable faith.Not "enable" --- it it wasn't enabled in the FIRST place, he wouldn't have made the request! He needed STRONGER faith!


Likewise, why would we need an author and finisher of our faith in the Person of Jesus Christ?Again, the Greek in Heb12:2 is NOT "sovereign machinator of our faith", but archegos is LEADER, and teleiotes is CHIEF EXAMPLE.

"He is the LEADER and STANDARD of faith."


(3) You have yet to show why, if all men possess faith as an intrinsic attribute, they do not believe in most cases. Even Israel, with all the signs and wonders, with all they experienced in their walk with God, are accused of "unbelief", and must wait until they see the One they pierced to embrace Him.Contrast those who study Scripture and allow themselves conviction (wisdom) that leads to saving-faith in 2Tim3:15, with those who ALSO study Scripture but refuse to come to Jesus to have life, John5:39-47. In Jn5 Jesus states why --- they sought their OWN glory rather than God's, they REFUSED to believe Moses who wrote of Jesus, but beneath it all because they would not love God!

And we're back to the most basic and First Commandment --- "You shall LOVE GOD!"


(4) Your last argument, that on Romans 12:3, seriously undermined your position in my view. It might be that men have devised ways and names of ways to explain away a difficulty in scripture, but Romans 12:3 is a direct statement, and would be perfectly true if faith is given on the basis of foreknowledge. It is true that scripture states equally clearly that while Pharaoh hardened his heart, it was God who hardened it. I do not say that this does not present a difficulty, but if God, who is sovereign in the affairs of men, needed Pharaoh not to wilt until He had the opportunity to avenge all the male children of Moses' era, He could influence Pharaoh to prolong his hardness. In this case Pharaoh's heart was hard and God added a measure to prolong the hardness. But in Romans 12:3 the only counter to this direct statement is your thesis.


1) "Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship.
2) And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.
3) For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith."

This is an admonishment for growth (and not turning AWAY FROM God, see Eph4:22-24 --- lay aside the old sinful, put on the new righteous, BE RENEWED in your spirit). It is "Semitic View", properly understood:

"...to think so as to have sound judgment, as to how much faith each man has".


(5) Your answer concerning "the gift of faith" being disallowed as an argument because it was a "spiritual gift" I cannot accept because faith is still the same thing, whether given in extra measure for the building of the saints or the believing in things divine. 1Cor12:29-30 in the NAS version correctly translates "all are NOT prophets, are they? All are NOT prophets, are they? All do NOT speak with tongues, do they?" "Faith" there is a kind of spiritual gift given to one SAVED BELIEVER, and not to ANOTHER saved-believer!

To ONE wisdom, to ANOTHER (different!) knowledge, to a THIRD faith, to a FOURTH healings! THAT "faith" is only given to ONE of them!


(6) In your answer concerning Matthew 16 and Peter's revelation, I also cannot accept your counter. The recognition of Person of Jesus is the crux of salvation and rebirth.Please see what we discussed in depth above; those WHO believe/love God are given to Jesus, and receive deeper spiritual knowledge like Messiahship.

"To he who HAS, is more (parable meanings) given."

What do they have, Walls?


Peter obviously could not have come to this recognition by himself. The text goes further to say that nothing of a man (flesh and blood) can reveal this. It needs divine input.To believe God is to believe Jesus (John14:1, 7-10); to believe Jesus is to receive the Spirit (1Cor2:12) and gain the deeper spiritual knowledge that worldly men do not have (1Cor2:14-15).


Finally, what is a relief in this dispute is the fact that whether you or I am wrong will not change our status before The Lord. We, and most of the other participants, and many of the readers, have already made the great jump of faith and an erroneous view of where that faith came from is moot. But thanks for the educated arguments and, who knows, I might yet change my thoughts on the subject.

You mean, I'm gonna be stuck with you as family, before Jesus, FOREVER?

I find that idea quite acceptable. :hug:

Oregongrown
Oct 17th 2013, 06:39 PM
It's important to also realize that Faith in the Bible is also a verb, not a noun.

It's not about thinking, it's about doing.

Definitely, and Love is also a verb. Good reminder Keck, denise, ysic

Gadgeteer
Oct 17th 2013, 06:57 PM
Walls, you raise excellent questions.

Asking the right questions is necessary to get the right answers.

Furthermore, I appreciate your tentative approach, expressing your theory while inviting greater insight.

I would offer that Faith requires some level of knowledge of the subject matter. That knowledge of spiritual matters can only come via revelation. But the knowledge is incomplete, because it's not faith if we are not taking a risk that we are wrong. But who has faith in what they do not to some degree expect to be true?

I submit further that it is this willingness to take the risk or leap of faith which is the response we are responsible for, even as God is responsible for the level of knowledge we have received as a prerequisite to our response.I think this is an admirable post, Eyelog --- I commend you!

:-)

Gadgeteer
Oct 17th 2013, 07:10 PM
This is my understanding of it. Grace is the thing God is giving. To believe in that, (to which there is ample evidence given to each person), it will take faith, not a blind faith mind you.... faith is the thing hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Gene, welcome to the boards! Hope you are blessed and matured towards Christ here! (I can already tell you are a blessing to us!) :-)


example:

A man is drowning miles out in the middle of the ocean, desiring to be rescued, when a boat comes along and freely offers him a rope. The drowning man grabs the rope. The boat is too high for the man to climb aboard, so instead the boat simply drags the man to shore to be saved. Now, the man did not save himself, all he can do is continue to hold on. His desire will allow for this continual state. The man can now in the present say, "i have been saved", concerning the past, he has been given salvation, but he still has a part to play, this is his justification. Man's knowledge of time is finite you see, he's not quite to shore yet. As he continues to hold on, he is continually being saved (still in the present)...this is his sanctification as the shore gets closer. The anticipation of his arrive to shore is his hope. He must have faith, and never let go. How wonderful, and good, his savior is. As with man and sin, Christ is our life boat, and our hope is in His glorification for His plan of salvation. A good analogy.

Yet --- under the heading of "Calvinism" (Sovereign Predestined Salvation), they perceive the man in the ocean as not just DROWNING in a sea of sin, but already DEAD --- and a rotting corpse can no more grab onto the rope than can an innert LOG. Therefore (they perceive) God must "ZAP" them with new hearts (regeneration!) and make them alive BEFORE belief, so that they therefore believe and grab the line and are saved ("Irresistible Faith"). Your understanding reflects mine; as noted Bible commentator A.T.Robertson said on Eph2:8, "Grace is God's part, faith is ours."


Grace is what was freely given by the boat. The drowning man did not "earn" his rescue, although he did play a part. It is God's will that we play our part in doing His will, that no man should perish, but have everlasting life. You are a moral agent.Again, under "gifted-faith", a man is perceived to be a rotting stinking CORPSE who must be made-alive and given faith FIRST (all God's sovereign doing!) only THEN does he grab the rope!


Free will must not be broken if the law of love is to be fulfilled. Wait --- this single statement is so foundational and so important, it is the basis of the whole issue! "God is LOVE" (1Jn4:16), and "love cannot demand its own way" (1Cor13:5)!

Love MUST be free to refuse or it's not love!


Romans 8:24 (KJV) For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

Acts 15:11 (KJV) But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

1 Corinthians 1:18 (KJV) For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
Excellent citations.

Take the 1Cor1:18 and follow it to verse 21; the world in its "wisdom" did not acknowledge God --- and God considers the world's wisdom foolishness. 1Cor1:21 says that God is well pleased THROUGH the foolishness of the message preached, to save those who believe.

Believe-through-foolishness --- it is BELIEFthat changes the message from "foolish", to "wise"!


I'm hoping i didn't mutilate that analogy too bad.

I think you did just fine; and I think my original thought is right, you are a blessing!

:-)

Gadgeteer
Oct 17th 2013, 07:12 PM
My bible says this about faith:

Romans 10:17

New King James Version (NKJV)

17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

commentary by Henry Morris

i. “Hearing is a reflection of first-century life. Paul does not raise the possibility of the message being read. While there were people who could read, the ordinary first-century citizen depended rather on being able to hear something.” (Henry Morris (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_M._Morris))

Excellent post -- well done! :-)

And one can come to saving-faith, by READING! 2Tim3:15!!!

Oregongrown
Oct 17th 2013, 07:33 PM
Excellent post -- well done! :-)

And one can come to saving-faith, by READING! 2Tim3:15!!!

I'm sure counting on that as I keep reading the Word. It's my first time through, even though I was saved in 93. I only did bible studies, and listened in church. Now I am finally taking others advice and reading it for myself;) God bless, ysic, denise

Gene Dale
Oct 17th 2013, 07:36 PM
Gene, welcome to the boards! Hope you are blessed and matured towards Christ here! (I can already tell you are a blessing to us!) :-)

A good analogy.

the analogy would be better if you could think of a scenario where the drowning victim wasnt aware he was in trouble, cause literally a drowning victim wouldnt be so contrite i'd be guessing :lol: he would even reach out and drown his neighbor if he thought he would get to tread water for another few seconds...


Yet --- under the heading of "Calvinism" (Sovereign Predestined Salvation), they perceive the man in the ocean as not just DROWNING in a sea of sin, but already DEAD --- and a rotting corpse can no more grab onto the rope than can an innert LOG. Therefore (they perceive) God must "ZAP" them with new hearts (regeneration!) and make them alive BEFORE belief, so that they therefore believe and grab the line and are saved ("Irresistible Faith"). Your understanding reflects mine; as noted Bible commentator A.T.Robertson said on Eph2:8, "Grace is God's part, faith is ours."

Yes i agree with you here, i understand that really only events, or God's will is what is being predestined. I can have foreknowledge of an alarm clock setting, even knowing the very second it will sound, but that does not necessarily make me the one who set it, my foreknowledge was not the cause. Foreknowledge therefore, does not serve as a causal agent to truth claims. Free will is compatible with God's foreknowledge, and safe too i'd add, if it wasnt, love would be stripped of its leaves so to speak. Even when we are performing God's will, we do so under our own choices, like Pharaoh, like Nebuchadnezzar, =P If we continually resist the Spirit, then we will be cut off.



Love MUST be free to refuse or it's not love!

yes i like how you put this. The reciprocal equivalent to that is literally the wages of sin is death. To refuse His love, is to heap up payment upon your own head, the wages.



I think you did just fine; and I think my original thought is right, you are a blessing!



thank you for the kind welcome. ive been enjoying the read. :D

Eyelog
Oct 17th 2013, 07:57 PM
Faith is, the substance, the evidence. Faith is an absolute. Willingness to take a chance of risk something isn't an absolute.

Percho, I am not yet seeing your point. : )

How is the evidence of faith an "absolute" in the sense you seem to be stating? Evidence need not be absolute, though commentators sometimes like to say faith is certainty. Actually, only some faith has risen to the point of absolute certainty in the mind of the believer. Most faith we have has not yet risen to that point, though it would be great if our faith in His promises all did.

Please let me know what I am missing in your view. Thanks.

percho
Oct 17th 2013, 10:17 PM
Percho, I am not yet seeing your point. : )

How is the evidence of faith an "absolute" in the sense you seem to be stating? Evidence need not be absolute, though commentators sometimes like to say faith is certainty. Actually, only some faith has risen to the point of absolute certainty in the mind of the believer. Most faith we have has not yet risen to that point, though it would be great if our faith in His promises all did.

Please let me know what I am missing in your view. Thanks.

Galatians 3:23 But before the faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

To be kept under the law is to be sentenced to death. When was, and what revealed, the faith. What removed one from being under the law, under the death penalty and put them under something else?

Before the foundation of the world God determined the sinless Son of God would die. Jesus the son of the virgin Mary was that Son. He died.
Also before the foundation of the world or before time began the same God made a promise of hope of eternal life.

And if Christ be not raised, your faith vain; ye are yet in your sins. 1 Cor 15:17

The resurrection of Jesus the Son by God the Father is what revealed the faith; The faithfulness of God the Father in sending his only begotten Son through woman laying the sin of the world upon him and that Son being obedient unto death even the death of the cross, and the Father giving the Son the promise of God. Eternal life.

If that did not take place then we would still be in our sins. There would be no faith.

Whether we believe it or not the resurrected Jesus is the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen; The Faith. Because of that God can see one as being under grace rather than that one being under the law.

Jesus giving his life and the Father raising him from the dead is the faith heard of by which one is given (received) the Spirit of truth. John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. Acts 2:33 states Jesus received the promise of the Holy Spirit from the Father and then gave it to us. We receive it by the faith of Christ, the Spirit of truth moves us from unbelief unto belief.

BTW Jesus is absolutely the only one born of woman who died and has been given life from the dead. The firstborn from the dead. Per Romans 6:9 to die no more and Acts 13:34 no more to return to corruption.

Eyelog
Oct 17th 2013, 10:32 PM
Galatians 3:23 But before the faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

To be kept under the law is to be sentenced to death. When was, and what revealed, the faith. What removed one from being under the law, under the death penalty and put them under something else?

Before the foundation of the world God determined the sinless Son of God would die. Jesus the son of the virgin Mary was that Son. He died.
Also before the foundation of the world or before time began the same God made a promise of hope of eternal life.

And if Christ be not raised, your faith vain; ye are yet in your sins. 1 Cor 15:17

The resurrection of Jesus the Son by God the Father is what revealed the faith; The faithfulness of God the Father in sending his only begotten Son through woman laying the sin of the world upon him and that Son being obedient unto death even the death of the cross, and the Father giving the Son the promise of God. Eternal life.

If that did not take place then we would still be in our sins. There would be no faith.

Whether we believe it or not the resurrected Jesus is the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen; The Faith. Because of that God can see one as being under grace rather than that one being under the law.

Jesus giving his life and the Father raising him from the dead is the faith heard of by which one is given (received) the Spirit of truth. John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. Acts 2:33 states Jesus received the promise of the Holy Spirit from the Father and then gave it to us. We receive it by the faith of Christ, the Spirit of truth moves us from unbelief unto belief.

Percho, this is very interesting. But you do not mean to imply no one had faith in God prior to the revelation of the Christ?

Didn't the OT Saints have faith in the promise, which Jesus fulfilled?

As such, the OT Saints had anywhere from no faith, to slight faith, to complete faith in God, though they did not yet have the revelation of the Gospel.

But the law was added bc of transgression, as a school marm to those who were too faithless to obey the Father by faith, even though the Law was intended to be followed by faith. But why did the Jews fail to get saved through the law? Paul says it was because they attempted to fulfill the law via works instead of by faith.

So, in one sense, the law is a red herring and in another sense it was a great teacher of what righteousness is.

In any case, not enough, but many people in OT times before the revelation of Christ were saved by their faith, for their faith that God would be their righteousness was accounted or reckoned to them as their righteousness.

In another sense, salvation has been by faith, from first to last.

Adam and Eve, for example, did not fail in the Garden bc of temptation per se. They failed due to a lack of faith to overcome temptation. Their lack of faith did not come from a lack of knowledge of JC. Rather, their lack of faith came from a distrust of God and a desire for what the tempter suggested they would gain if they disregarded God's righteous requirement upon them.

Curtis
Oct 18th 2013, 12:09 AM
Gadgeteer; Go back to all your scriptures that you quote as being proof that faith comes from ones self and not God, and notice that all the people who had faith or who was condemned for not acting. You will see they all heard the Word of God before they did anything. Even those to whom Jesus said , "be it done according to your faith". They all heard the Word first before they were able to receive healing or whatever they desired. Pharaoh heart was harden because he heard the Word but refused to obey it. You will find in every instance the Word was required first before any action could be done. Faith without works is dead.

percho
Oct 18th 2013, 05:59 AM
Percho, this is very interesting. But you do not mean to imply no one had faith in God prior to the revelation of the Christ?

Didn't the OT Saints have faith in the promise, which Jesus fulfilled?

As such, the OT Saints had anywhere from no faith, to slight faith, to complete faith in God, though they did not yet have the revelation of the Gospel.

But the law was added bc of transgression, as a school marm to those who were too faithless to obey the Father by faith, even though the Law was intended to be followed by faith. But why did the Jews fail to get saved through the law? Paul says it was because they attempted to fulfill the law via works instead of by faith.

So, in one sense, the law is a red herring and in another sense it was a great teacher of what righteousness is.

In any case, not enough, but many people in OT times before the revelation of Christ were saved by their faith, for their faith that God would be their righteousness was accounted or reckoned to them as their righteousness.

In another sense, salvation has been by faith, from first to last.

Adam and Eve, for example, did not fail in the Garden bc of temptation per se. They failed due to a lack of faith to overcome temptation. Their lack of faith did not come from a lack of knowledge of JC. Rather, their lack of faith came from a distrust of God and a desire for what the tempter suggested they would gain if they disregarded God's righteous requirement upon them.

Give a little thought to this.

But before the* faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Gal 3:23

But after that the* faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. Gal 3:25

Romans 3:30 Seeing one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through the* faith.

the* - I put the there for it is in the Greek.

It was when God revealed to Abraham that in his seed, Christ not Isaac, all the people of the earth would be blessed is when righteousness was imputed to Abraham. God called Abraham from idolatry, unbelief unto belief. And before the rite of circumcision was given him he was told of the seed and was imputed with the righteousness of God (justified because of the faith to come).

Since the death and resurrection of Jesus, the faith, the uncircumcision are called and are justified through the faith that did come.

Compare also Gal. 3:14 to this thought where that verse also ends in, "the," faith. 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through the* faith.

Your thoughts please.

mailmandan
Oct 18th 2013, 11:31 AM
Hebrews5:9 does say that He is the source of salvation to all who obey Him; seems to place "salvation" as consequential to "obedience", doesn't it?

Which acts of obedience is salvation a consequence of? Is obedience a consequence of salvation? Who obeys Him? The saved or the lost? We need to be careful with Hebrews 5:9. I've heard many people use this verse to support salvation by works. Only believers have obeyed Him by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16) in order to become saved, and only believers obey Him after they have been saved through faith by keeping His commandments and practicing righteousness (1 John 2:3; 3:9,10). In either sense, believers obey Him. Unbelievers have not obeyed Him by refusing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16) and by not keeping His commandments and not practicing righteousness but sin (1 John 2:4; 3:8,10). In either sense, unbelievers have not obeyed Him. I believe that obedience/good works is a manifestation of our faith. If we accomplish a lifetime of consistent obedience/good works to the Lord, I would see this as a manifestation of our faith, but not the origin of it. If someone died the same day that they genuinely placed their faith in Jesus Christ for salvation (like the thief on the cross) and was unable to accomplish a lifetime of consistent obedience/good works to the Lord, they still had faith. You could not say, they did not accomplish multiple acts of obedience/good works in their lifetime and faith "is" in essence multiple acts of obedience/good works, so they did not have faith.


So --- what is the difference between "obedience", and "belief"? (Hint -- Heb3:18-19, 4:11) Is there a substantial difference?

I see obedience as a manifestation of our belief. Belief is the root and obedience/good works is the fruit. No fruit demonstrates no root. Man is saved through belief/faith and not by acts of obedience/good works which follow, yet genuine belief/faith is substantiated and confirmed by obedience/good works.

What do you think?

episkopos
Oct 18th 2013, 11:39 AM
Our job is to be faithful with what God has given or revealed to us. Are we good and faithful stewards? God will decide that.

Scooby_Snacks
Oct 18th 2013, 11:50 AM
Jesus is the only one who keeps any of us faithful. No matter what, everything leads back to Jesus.
Any pride in my own faithfulness leads me to stumbling because it removes the rock and places my faith on the stilts I built to hold up my house.

Gadgeteer
Oct 19th 2013, 12:36 AM
I'm sure counting on that as I keep reading the Word. It's my first time through, even though I was saved in 93.Huh?! You were saved when you were NINETY-THREE?!?! You don't look a DAY over...

...oh, sorry --- you were saved IN '93! My bad... http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/sprachlos/speechless-smiley-027.gif


I only did bible studies, and listened in church. Now I am finally taking others' advice and reading it for myself;) God bless, ysic, denise
And you -- you are a blessing to us!

There's so much there that can be gleaned just by reading. Though, sometimes it's fun to go into the original Greek. For instance, in John21 when Jesus asked Peter three times "Do you LOVE Me?" There were two different words in play --- the first two tomes Jesus asked if Peter AGAPAO - LOVED Him (complete, unconditional love). But Peter just couldn't bring himself up to that, all he had for Jesus was "phileo-brotherly-love". The third time Jesus sighed, and resignedly asked, "Do you phileos Me?" Peter again confirmed that he "phileos/brotherly-loved Jesus". Peter was not grieved that Jesus asked him three times[/i], Peter was grieved that Jesus asked for "AGAPE-love", and Peter was not capable.

Subtleties like that are fun.

Do you know about Rom1:17, "the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith"? What did Paul mean?

:-)

Bandit
Oct 19th 2013, 12:51 AM
Jesus is the only one who keeps any of us faithful. No matter what, everything leads back to Jesus.
Any pride in my own faithfulness leads me to stumbling because it removes the rock and places my faith on the stilts I built to hold up my house.

Hello Scooby_Snacks,

I'm not wanting to play the devil's advocate here, but when some don't remain faithful, who's credit is that? If we are to credit Jesus when we are faithful, who's credit is it when we become unfaithful?

ewq1938
Oct 19th 2013, 01:02 AM
Do you know about Rom1:17, "the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith"? What did Paul mean?



Well, I heard it's always best to meet someone faith to faith so you know what kind of person you are dealing with...

Scooby_Snacks
Oct 19th 2013, 12:56 PM
Hello Scooby_Snacks,

I'm not wanting to play the devil's advocate here, but when some don't remain faithful, who's credit is that? If we are to credit Jesus when we are faithful, who's credit is it when we become unfaithful?

Hi Bandit. Good to see you.

I have to ask for clarity to your question, so we can talk about it more. I don't feel devil's advocate thing at all. I will also try to clarify what I was saying.

Peter loved Jesus but was full of pride over his loyalty/faithfulness to Him. Jesus made it pretty clear that his loyalty was in the power of his own flesh, not by faith in Jesus.
Peter got the lesson of his need for total dependence not on himself, but on Christ--albeit, a very difficult but necessary lesson he had to learn in order to actually be unmovable, like a rock.

If believing Jesus and trusting Him, having Faith in His promises and His Word etc. is one side of the coin, then the other would be trusting in oneself-- unbelief, not trusting Him, having no Faith in His promises and His Word.

Eyelog
Oct 19th 2013, 03:04 PM
Give a little thought to this.

But before the* faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Gal 3:23

But after that the* faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. Gal 3:25

Romans 3:30 Seeing one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through the* faith.

the* - I put the there for it is in the Greek.

It was when God revealed to Abraham that in his seed, Christ not Isaac, all the people of the earth would be blessed is when righteousness was imputed to Abraham. God called Abraham from idolatry, unbelief unto belief. And before the rite of circumcision was given him he was told of the seed and was imputed with the righteousness of God (justified because of the faith to come).

Since the death and resurrection of Jesus, the faith, the uncircumcision are called and are justified through the faith that did come.

Compare also Gal. 3:14 to this thought where that verse also ends in, "the," faith. 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through the* faith.

Your thoughts please.

Percho, I read your post 4 times. If I understand your point, you are saying there are two faiths here:

1) Faith and
2) The Faith

You associate the former with generic believing in God, perhaps.

You associate the latter with faith in JC, the fully revealed Gospel.

Is that accurate? If so, please remind me of your overall point. Thanks.

Bandit
Oct 19th 2013, 03:10 PM
Jesus is the only one who keeps any of us faithful. No matter what, everything leads back to Jesus.
Any pride in my own faithfulness leads me to stumbling because it removes the rock and places my faith on the stilts I built to hold up my house.


Hello Scooby_Snacks,

I'm not wanting to play the devil's advocate here, but when some don't remain faithful, who's credit is that? If we are to credit Jesus when we are faithful, who's credit is it when we become unfaithful?


Hi Bandit. Good to see you.

I have to ask for clarity to your question, so we can talk about it more. I don't feel devil's advocate thing at all. I will also try to clarify what I was saying.

Hello and good to see you as well. I pop in when time allows (which is not near as often as I would like). I will clarify my question below.


Peter loved Jesus but was full of pride over his loyalty/faithfulness to Him. Jesus made it pretty clear that his loyalty was in the power of his own flesh, not by faith in Jesus.
Peter got the lesson of his need for total dependence not on himself, but on Christ--albeit, a very difficult but necessary lesson he had to learn in order to actually be unmovable, like a rock.

I'm not sure I would agree with your analysis of the particular situation you have in mind here - so I'll not address it.


If believing Jesus and trusting Him, having Faith in His promises and His Word etc. is one side of the coin, then the other would be trusting in oneself-- unbelief, not trusting Him, having no Faith in His promises and His Word.

I would rather say that "If believing Jesus and trusting Him, having Faith in His promises and His Word etc. is one side of the coin," then the other side of the coin is not believing Jesus and not trusting Him, and not having Faith in His promises and His Word etc.


Okay, so let me get back to your first post above and my response to it. When you say, "Jesus is the only one who keeps any of us faithful," that reads as if our faithfulness is exclusively His doing and none of ours. If that is not what you intended, then please say so, but assuming I read your intended meaning correctly, then my response naturally follows. So if our faithfulness is fully His doing and none of our own, then logically would He not also be responsible for our unfaithfulness? (For would not our unfaithfulness be the lack of faithfulness for which He and He alone was responsible to supply?)

Bandit

Scooby_Snacks
Oct 19th 2013, 11:37 PM
Hello and good to see you as well. I pop in when time allows (which is not near as often as I would like). I will clarify my question below.



I'm not sure I would agree with your analysis of the particular situation you have in mind here - so I'll not address it.



I would rather say that "If believing Jesus and trusting Him, having Faith in His promises and His Word etc. is one side of the coin," then the other side of the coin is not believing Jesus and not trusting Him, and not having Faith in His promises and His Word etc.


Okay, so let me get back to your first post above and my response to it. When you say, "Jesus is the only one who keeps any of us faithful," that reads as if our faithfulness is exclusively His doing and none of ours. If that is not what you intended, then please say so, but assuming I read your intended meaning correctly, then my response naturally follows. So if our faithfulness is fully His doing and none of our own, then logically would He not also be responsible for our unfaithfulness? (For would not our unfaithfulness be the lack of faithfulness for which He and He alone was responsible to supply?)

Bandit
It would be great if you decided to share how you view the Peter and Jesus area of scripture that my post was referring to, because it is where the basis of what I said stems from.

And to answer your question above, no, and that is not what I was saying at all.

Bandit
Oct 20th 2013, 01:55 AM
It would be great if you decided to share how you view the Peter and Jesus area of scripture that my post was referring to, because it is where the basis of what I said stems from.
...

Hello Scooby,

The problem is I didn't see a particular passage being referenced, so your interpretation is too vague for me to address. You would have to spell out this passage and your understanding of it much more clearly before I could address it properly.

Scooby_Snacks
Oct 20th 2013, 02:04 AM
Hello Scooby,

The problem is I didn't see a particular passage being referenced, so your interpretation is too vague for me to address. You would have to spell out this passage and your understanding of it much more clearly before I could address it properly.


My bad I assumed you were familiar with Peter's denial of Jesus.

Gadgeteer
Oct 20th 2013, 03:15 AM
the analogy would be better if you could think of a scenario where the drowning victim wasnt aware he was in trouble, cause literally a drowning victim wouldnt be so contrite i'd be guessing :lol:It's all sequence; "gifted-faith" perceives that God is biased and partial --- choosing certain ones over the rest, and predestining the chosen ones to salvation (equally predestining the majority to sin and to Hell!). Therefore (under that view), faith is given TO men BEFORE (and so that they can) they turn to God.


he would even reach out and drown his neighbor if he thought he would get to tread water for another few seconds... That's an unpleasant thought; but those who are not "in Christ", are by definition selfish.


Yes i agree with you here, i understand that really only events, or God's will is what is being predestined. I can have foreknowledge of an alarm clock setting, even knowing the very second it will sound, but that does not necessarily make me the one who set it, my foreknowledge was not the cause. Foreknowledge therefore, does not serve as a causal agent to truth claims. Free will is compatible with God's foreknowledge, and safe too i'd add, if it wasnt, love would be stripped of its leaves so to speak. Even when we are performing God's will, we do so under our own choices, like Pharaoh, like Nebuchadnezzar, =P If we continually resist the Spirit, then we will be cut off. Amen.

And --- how is it that one can subconsiously even while asleep, awaken a minute BEFORE the clock goes off?
:confused:


yes i like how you put this. The reciprocal equivalent to that is literally the wages of sin is death. To refuse His love, is to heap up payment upon your own head, the wages. Yet those who reject Him, do not consciously think they're going to Hell. The devil whispers sweet lies --- like, "Oh go have fun, don't worry you can always repent LATER."

But sometimes that "later" ends quickly; a split second before the car crash, there is only time to say, "Ohhh!"

There is a Scripture that says "Now is the time." The real fun and pleasure is ONLY through Christ.


"These things have I told you, that My joy may be in you, and your joy be made full." Jn15:11


thank you for the kind welcome. ive been enjoying the read. :D

:thumbsup:

Gadgeteer
Oct 20th 2013, 03:23 AM
Gadgeteer; Go back to all your scriptures that you quote as being proof that faith comes from ones self and not God, and notice that all the people who had faith or who was condemned for not acting. You will see they all heard the Word of God before they did anything. Even those to whom Jesus said , "be it done according to your faith". They all heard the Word first before they were able to receive healing or whatever they desired.But to whom is the Word revealed? Some, or all? Even those who never have HEARD of Jesus -- He can be known through what He has made (Rm1:19-20), and even those who do not have the Law (Jesus is now the Law!) can show Him written in their hearts.


Pharaoh's heart was hardened because he heard the Word but refused to obey it. You will find in every instance the Word was required first before any action could be done. Faith without works is dead.

It looks again like we agree; Pharaoh chose to disbelieve (harden his OWN heart) before God did anything.

Gadgeteer
Oct 20th 2013, 03:35 AM
Which acts of obedience is salvation a consequence of? Is obedience a consequence of salvation? Who obeys Him? The saved or the lost? We need to be careful with Hebrews 5:9. I've heard many people use this verse to support salvation by works.Hi, Dan. :wave:

Hebrews uses "believe" and "obedience" interchangeably.
Only believers have obeyed Him by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16) in order to become saved, and only believers obey Him after they have been saved through faith by keeping His commandments and practicing righteousness (1 John 2:3; 3:9,10). In either sense, believers obey Him. Unbelievers have not obeyed Him by refusing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16) and by not keeping His commandments and not practicing righteousness but sin (1 John 2:4; 3:8,10). In either sense, unbelievers have not obeyed Him. I believe that obedience/good works is a manifestation of our faith.To believe is to DO His words, Matt7:24-27. To obey is to do His words, also Matt7:24:27.


If we accomplish a lifetime of consistent obedience/good works to the Lord, I would see this as a manifestation of our faith, but not the origin of it. If someone died the same day that they genuinely placed their faith in Jesus Christ for salvation (like the thief on the cross) and was unable to accomplish a lifetime of consistent obedience/good works to the Lord, they still had faith. You could not say, they did not accomplish multiple acts of obedience/good works in their lifetime and faith "is" in essence multiple acts of obedience/good works, so they did not have faith.True faith leads to good works; and as James says good works reveals true faith. Whether one lives a LIFETIME in Jesus' service or enters in at the end, as Jesus tells in the parable of Matt20, the wage is the same.


I see obedience as a manifestation of our belief. Belief is the root and obedience/good works is the fruit. No fruit demonstrates no root. Man is saved through belief/faith and not by acts of obedience/good works which follow, yet genuine belief/faith is substantiated and confirmed by obedience/good works.You see obedience as the consequence of faith; I see obedience as the same as acting-on-faith. I think the difference between us is not significant.


What do you think?

I think you did an excellent post!

:-)

percho
Oct 20th 2013, 03:48 AM
Percho, I read your post 4 times. If I understand your point, you are saying there are two faiths here:

1) Faith and
2) The Faith

You associate the former with generic believing in God, perhaps.

You associate the latter with faith in JC, the fully revealed Gospel.

Is that accurate? If so, please remind me of your overall point. Thanks.

Actually I believe there is only one faith.

Gen 3:23 states the faith (belief) is something that required being revealed. That while awaiting that revelation all were locked together under the law and in V22 locked together as sinners. Verse 24 says that it is this faith (belief) that is to be revealed by which we will justified, that is removed from being under the law. Verse 23 also speaks of this time of being under the law as before the faith (the belief) came. Verse 25 states those who were once locked together under the law, the schoolmaster are no longer under the schoolmaster being the faith (the belief) has come; Been revealed.

In the Old Testament God called people. He also did not call people. He called them for the bringing about of the faith. The faith of Abraham wasn't what he believed about something. The faith of Abraham was that in his seed (singular see Gal 3:16) the Christ all the people of the earth would be blessed, with Abraham. That blessing comes to us through the gift of the Holy Spirit. The very Spirit that Jesus said could not be given unless he went away. If he, Jesus was not obedient unto death even the death of the cross there would be no Spirit given. Jesus was obedient unto death even the death of the cross. Jesus was dead. Jesus is the only one born of woman, Jesus the seed of Abraham was dead and there could not be any blessing that could be given to anyone if the person to receive it and through whom it was to be given were dead. 1 Cor 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Without the resurrection of Jesus from the dead Jesus would still be dead and there would be no faith. The Holy Spirit would not have been received by the child of promise and could not be given to anyone else. Acts 2:33 states emphatically Jesus first received the promise of the Holy Spirit from the Father and then it was shed forth. Titus 3:5,6 says the exact same thing yet no one will believe that. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Truth. God calls and gives the Holy Spirit. Why. Paul was on his way to Damascus to persecute the followers of Christ. Paul says this in 1 Tim 1:13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

I ask; Was it being called and given the Spirit of Truth that changed Paul from being an unbeliever unto a believer?

Or did Paul all of a sudden drum up some mystical faith from within himself and become a believer and then God gave him the Holy Spirit?

Is he a believer because of something within himself or did God make him a sheep, a believing one?

Gadgeteer
Oct 20th 2013, 03:48 AM
Jesus is the only one who keeps any of us faithful. No matter what, everything leads back to Jesus.
Any pride in my own faithfulness leads me to stumbling because it removes the rock and places my faith on the stilts I built to hold up my house.
Hi, Scooby! :wave:

Jesus keeps us faithful? How does He do that?

What do you think of Jude20-21? 1Tim4:16?

"Building yourselves in holy faith, keep yourselves in the love of God!"

"Take care about yourself and your teaching; persevere in these things. As you do you will save yourselves..."

Faithfulness in God is not a source of personal pride; it is the opposite, to be broken and humbled. And incredibly grateful for His grace. Our boast is in Him, our contentment is the incredible sacrifice He made for us out of love.

Gadgeteer
Oct 20th 2013, 05:12 AM
Well, I heard it's always best to meet someone faith to faith so you know what kind of person you are dealing with...

Hi, EWQ! :wave:
Two different forms of "pistis" are used, clearly two different meanings of "faith". Quoting noted Greek scholar and Bible commentator A.T.Robertson:


For therein (gar en autwi). In the gospel (verse Romans 16 ) of which Paul is not ashamed. A righteousness of God (dikaiosunh qeou). Subjective genitive, "a God kind of righteousness," one that each must have and can obtain in no other way save "from faith unto faith" (ek pistew ei pistin), faith the starting point and faith the goal (Lightfoot). Is revealed (apokaluptetai).

Faith the start, and faith the goal. "The righteousness of God is revealed from BEGINNING faith to ENDING faith; as it is written, the just shall live BY faith."

This suggests Gal3:3, "having begun in the Spirit, are you now ending in the flesh?" It fully accommodates "faith" being something men decide -- and not just at the beginning, but "throughout until the end" (Heb3:14!).

It does not fit "faith being something God gives and maintains".

Scooby_Snacks
Oct 20th 2013, 12:41 PM
Hi, Scooby! :wave:

Jesus keeps us faithful? How does He do that?

What do you think of Jude20-21? 1Tim4:16?

"Building yourselves in holy faith, keep yourselves in the love of God!"

"Take care about yourself and your teaching; persevere in these things. As you do you will save yourselves..."

Faithfulness in God is not a source of personal pride; it is the opposite, to be broken and humbled. And incredibly grateful for His grace. Our boast is in Him, our contentment is the incredible sacrifice He made for us out of love.

Hi gadgeteer--

Because He bore all that I may obtain all--including obedience to His commands by Grace through Faith.
Everything points back to Him, and NOT TO ME OR ANYTHING I DO without Him and without The Holy Spirit working within me nothing is possible-- I would not nor anyone stand before a Holy God and not be blotted off the face of the earth.

His yoke is easy His burden is light. I agree with you Gadgeteer-- it is the broken state (Oh Lord, please help me do these thing You command) a state of need for Him, not a state of pride that says (I can do it without you! I will stand and remain faithful!)
Jesus answers the prayers from a humble heart and gives grace in the time of need.

By having Faith in Him, and what He has done I have the promises of His inner work. Remaining in Faith is remaining in His rest that He provided, and includes His commands which could seem more burdensome than the law-- These are from the inside out, and He is working in me through His Spirit guiding me as I read His Word believing it is true, as The Spirit as the guidance and easy yoke because of His love.


I guess an important question to ask would be:

Do I take credit for being faithful (I did it!) or does He give me credit for being faithful, (good and faithful servant!) because I was relying on Him looking to Him in order to do so? In surrender to Him the "choice" was made, and I already explained that to me was the only choice I wanted to make because of His love for me, and that His spiritual influence was greater than any flesh.

Will He give me credit for remaining faithful by doing it without Him?

When I discuss these things, the key to remember about my manner is that I truly believe there is nothing good coming from me that omits Him-- (from beginning to end) Nothing good that comes from me alone. This is the basis of my belief, what I say, and how I converse.

Scooby_Snacks
Oct 20th 2013, 12:51 PM
My bad I assumed you were familiar with Peter's denial of Jesus.

I was a bit short with you Bandit, I apologize. **Please forgive me. I honestly did not realize that what I stated was not clear.
I hope this post to Gadgeteer gives you insight into my thought process.

http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php/251074-quot-Faith-quot-is-a-gift-FROM-God!?p=3060238#post3060238

Matthew 26
Luke 22

Bandit
Oct 20th 2013, 04:40 PM
My bad I assumed you were familiar with Peter's denial of Jesus.

Okay, but now tie this to where you said, Jesus is the only one who keeps any of us faithful. No matter what, everything leads back to Jesus. Any pride in my own faithfulness leads me to stumbling because it removes the rock and places my faith on the stilts I built to hold up my house.

It is this connection which needs more explanation. How does Peter's denial translate into "only Jesus keeps any of us faithful"? That is a connection I do not see.

Bandit
Oct 20th 2013, 05:19 PM
I was a bit short with you Bandit, I apologize. **Please forgive me. I honestly did not realize that what I stated was not clear.
I hope this post to Gadgeteer gives you insight into my thought process.


Okay, no problem.


Hi gadgeteer--

Because He bore all that I may obtain all--including obedience to His commands by Grace through Faith.
Everything points back to Him, and NOT TO ME OR ANYTHING I DO without Him and without The Holy Spirit working within me nothing is possible-- I would not nor anyone stand before a Holy God and not be blotted off the face of the earth.

His yoke is easy His burden is light. I agree with you Gadgeteer-- it is the broken state (Oh Lord, please help me do these thing You command) a state of need for Him, not a state of pride that says [B](I can do it without you! I will stand and remain faithful!)
...


I understand that these are a part of your thought processes, and that many have similar thoughts, but do you realize that you have assumed an 'either/or' position? Reread what you wrote; does it not sound like you have assumed that a person's faithfulness is either all of God or all of self? Why are those the only options? Why can't there be a synergistic option - one that acknowledges the roles of both parties? (Just a thought.)

Gadg quoted a couple of verses, yet you did not address them directly, rather you responded with these thoughts. Why not try to incorporate such verses into your understanding. Such verses point out an ongoing human responsibility in the 'faithfulness' equation.



I guess an important question to ask would be:

Do I take credit for being faithful (I did it!) or does He give me credit for being faithful, (good and faithful servant!)

Again, why an 'either/or'? Can a person not rightly expect to hear "well done good and faithful servant" before the judgement? Did not Paul say,

I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith; in the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearing. [2 Tim 4:7,8]



Will He give me credit for remaining faithful by doing it without Him?

Again, why the 'either/or'?

Gadgeteer
Oct 20th 2013, 06:17 PM
Hi gadgeteer--

Because He bore all that I may obtain all--including obedience to His commands by Grace through Faith.
Everything points back to Him, and NOT TO ME OR ANYTHING I DO without Him and without The Holy Spirit working within me nothing is possible-- I would not nor anyone stand before a Holy God and not be blotted off the face of the earth.Hi again, Scooby. I'm not understanding --- He bore all that you may obtain obedience? To "obey" is not something you do, but rather your obedience is something He gives TO you?

http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/fragend/confused-smiley-007.gif


His yoke is easy His burden is light.For whom? For those TO whom God grants repentance and obedience? What is He for those to whom He does not (grant obedience & repentance)?

Scripture says He is not far from anyone (Acts17:26-31); how far is He from those to whom He has NOT "granted obedience"?


I agree with you Gadgeteer-- it is the broken state (Oh Lord, please help me do these thing You command) a state of need for Him, not a state of pride that says (I can do it without you! I will stand and remain faithful!)If faith is our decision, it is faith in HIM --- there is no pride for us being faithful in someone else; all the merit and value is in whom our faith resists --- isn't it?

As we read in Jude (can't remember which chapter), we build ourselves in faith, and we keep ourselves in His love. And that fits what Jesus said in Matt7:24-25 --- those WHO believe are wise, but those WHO disbelieve are foolish.

How can we be wise or foolish for something God decides/does for or to us?


Jesus answers the prayers from a humble heart and gives grace in the time of need.
"Gives grace"? Doesn't He give grace to all, all the time? (Titus2:11!)


By having Faith in Him, and what He has done I have the promises of His inner work. Remaining in Faith is remaining in His rest that He provided, and includes His commands which could seem more burdensome than the law-- These are from the inside out, and He is working in me through His Spirit guiding me as I read His Word believing it is true, as The Spirit as the guidance and easy yoke because of His love.You're proposing that continued faith is HIS working, not our continued choice. How do you read 2Tim2:11-13? IF we have died and endure, then we shall live and reign with Him; but if we deny Him and are faithless, He denies us before God! (Matt10:33)

How does our faithlessness (which cannot reflect "salvation"), read as something God decides and/or maintains?


I guess an important question to ask would be:

Do I take credit for being faithful (I did it!) or does He give me credit for being faithful, (good and faithful servant!) because I was relying on Him looking to Him in order to do so?

In surrender to Him the "choice" was made, and I already explained that to me was the only choice I wanted to make because of His love for me, and that His spiritual influence was greater than any flesh.Then how can one's own faithfulness be called "WISE", and unfaithfulness be called "FOOLISH" by Jesus, in Matt7:24-27?


Will He give me credit for remaining faithful by doing it without Him?No one said without Him; but look again at 2Tim2:11-13 --- IF we are faithless, we will perish, in spite of His remaining faithful to us.


When I discuss these things, the key to remember about my manner is that I truly believe there is nothing good coming from me that omits Him-- (from beginning to end) Nothing good that comes from me alone. This is the basis of my belief, what I say, and how I converse.

This sounds like "total inability" -- an extension of "total depravity". Reading Romans3:10-12 as "no one does good". It denies Luke6:33, "sinners do good".

No one says we can do good without Jesus (which would be "Pelagianism"); but if Jesus meant it in Jn12:32, He calls every one; which is also what Paul said in Acts17:26-31. His call to every one is what overcomes our depravity and brings us to the door, and then we decide to enter in or to turn back to sin (Jn10:9).

...but that's not a one-time-decision, it's made every moment of every day. Thus, "Abide in Him".

Scooby_Snacks
Oct 20th 2013, 07:12 PM
Okay, but now tie this to where you said, Jesus is the only one who keeps any of us faithful. No matter what, everything leads back to Jesus. Any pride in my own faithfulness leads me to stumbling because it removes the rock and places my faith on the stilts I built to hold up my house.

It is this connection which needs more explanation. How does Peter's denial translate into "only Jesus keeps any of us faithful"? That is a connection I do not see.

When I reviewed the scripture areas/verses and remembered your question, paraphrased here:

Does that mean we credit God with our unfaithfulness?

I would not take these verses and ever say that we credit God with our unfaithfulness:

Matthew 26:30-31

And when they had sung a hymn, they went out to the Mount of Olives.
Then Jesus said to them,“You will all fall away because of me this night.
For it is written, ‘I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock will be scattered.’
The fulfillment of prophecy.
It wasn't God causing them to fall away, they fell away because the object of their faith was struck down, their guide and protector, teacher and friend was carried away.

We get carried away when the truth of what Jesus did is not enough, when believing Him is not enough.

But He returned forever more to the joy of all.
They didn't believe Him when He told them what would happen to Him, and Peter did not believe Him when He said Peter would deny Him, because he was so certain he would never fall.
Peter was relying on himself, his loyalty to keep him, not on Jesus to keep Him--even when He told him what would be.

But Jesus kept Peter, and the scattered disciples even though He was struck down because of His love for all, he was raised again forever.

I believe that Peter, then came to understand that it is only because of His Faith/belief/trust in Jesus that he is able to stand.
He was going his own way over and over again-- against Jesus and into unbelief.

The effort that I put in is continuing to stand fast in the liberty that set me free, instead of placing myself once again under a yoke of bondage, which is unbelief, and leads to (more sin) like the pride of Peter.

I hope that helps you understand my view better.

Scooby_Snacks
Oct 20th 2013, 07:50 PM
Okay, no problem.




I understand that these are a part of your thought processes, and that many have similar thoughts, but do you realize that you have assumed an 'either/or' position? Reread what you wrote; does it not sound like you have assumed that a person's faithfulness is either all of God or all of self? Why are those the only options? Why can't there be a synergistic option - one that acknowledges the roles of both parties? (Just a thought.)

I have heard these theological terms, but do not know what they mean.
If I did not desire to have a relationship with Him, I would probably not be here today-
You can see my earlier post on the matter of influence I speak of.
http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php/251074-quot-Faith-quot-is-a-gift-FROM-God!?p=3058654#post3058654
http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php/251074-quot-Faith-quot-is-a-gift-FROM-God!?p=3058694#post3058694

No, I do not assume that my faithfulness is either or.
Hear what I AM saying, not what I am not saying, if possible:

Without Him--His Word, His sacrifice, Grace and Truth--Without His Spirit sanctifying me---nothing good (Compared to His goodness) is possible, not faithfulness or obedience, not good fruit or my very life-- And so why omit Him from being the author and finisher of my faith? I didn't create myself but I was given a mind to create for certain-- and I have every ability to create my own monuments of worship as well. But that is when I omit God, that is when I am in self will--the opposite of God's will. BUT because He loves me, because He is faithful, He corrects those He loves. He is the beginning and the end-- I believe it.

Could it be possible that when look at what I write through what you believe the view of what I am saying gets clouded when compared to your view?


Gadg quoted a couple of verses, yet you did not address them directly, rather you responded with these thoughts. Why not try to incorporate such verses into your understanding. Such verses point out an ongoing human responsibility in the 'faithfulness' equation.

What I shared goes deeper than that--back to the source, and that source is worthy of all glory.



Again, why an 'either/or'? Can a person not rightly expect to hear "well done good and faithful servant" before the judgement? Did not Paul say,

I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith; in the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearing. [2 Tim 4:7,8]



Paul also said this later in the same chapter of 2 Timothy, because He believes what Jesus says, which is from Jesus to begin with and "he loves His appearing":

The Lord will rescue me from every evil deed and bring me safely into his heavenly kingdom. To him be the glory forever and ever. Amen.(2 Timothy 4:18 ESV)







Again, why the 'either/or'?

Why not just hear what I am saying?

Scooby_Snacks
Oct 20th 2013, 08:31 PM
Hi again, Scooby. I'm not understanding --- He bore all that you may obtain obedience? To "obey" is not something you do, but rather your obedience is something He gives TO you?

http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/fragend/confused-smiley-007.gif

Just because I love that little smiley above, does not mean I love what it stands for!

After all this time Gadgeteer, still you do not hear me, your sister?

He was obedient, therefore, I am given all ability through Him to be as well. Without Him I will not and cannot be obedient.
That goes for coming to Faith (as far as I see it as well) because everything good that was offered to me through His Word, through conviction of sin by The Holy Spirit and by His love through others as I already stated on this very thread--drew me to Him. I knew I could trust Him because of His work and labor of love toward me.





This sounds like "total inability" -- an extension of "total depravity". Reading Romans3:10-12 as "no one does good". It denies Luke6:33, "sinners do good".

No one says we can do good without Jesus (which would be "Pelagianism"); but if Jesus meant it in Jn12:32, He calls every one; which is also what Paul said in Acts17:26-31. His call to every one is what overcomes our depravity and brings us to the door, and then we decide to enter in or to turn back to sin (Jn10:9).

...but that's not a one-time-decision, it's made every moment of every day. Thus, "Abide in Him".

It "sounds like" things because you will not hear what I am saying without those "things".

Gadgeteer
Oct 20th 2013, 10:15 PM
Just because I love that little smiley above, does not mean I love what it stands for!

After all this time Gadgeteer, still you do not hear me, your sister?I'll try to do better. :hug:


He was obedient, therefore, I am given all ability through Him to be as well. Without Him I will not and cannot be obedient. The question is "how is that ability given"? And to whom?

Many who hold to "Sovereign Predestined Salvation" perceive that the ability to believe and to be obedient, is given only to a few, for whom obedience and faith are then irresistible. No matter whether they think that "faith" is a direct gift FROM God, or if it is the irresistible consequence of God's sovereign action in exclusive individuals' lives.

My perception (as you well know) is that the ability to believe/obey is given to everyone, and each person must make the choice to exercise it, or to prefer sin.


"The grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men. Titus2:11


That goes for coming to Faith (as far as I see it as well) because everything good that was offered to me through His Word, through conviction of sin by The Holy Spirit and by His love through others as I already stated on this very thread--drew me to Him. I knew I could trust Him because of His work and labor of love toward me.I am very glad you were drawn to Him; I find the reality of having you as a sister in Christ forever, a delight and a joy.

Now, what will you and I say to people of the world, who do not believe in Jesus? That He lived, died, and lives again -- and that they have a choice?

I bet you and I agree on that.


When I discuss these things, the key to remember about my manner is that I truly believe there is nothing good coming from me that omits Him-- (from beginning to end) Nothing good that comes from me alone. This is the basis of my belief, what I say, and how I converse.
This sounds like "total inability" -- an extension of "total depravity". Reading Romans3:10-12 as "no one does good". It denies Luke6:33, "sinners do good".It "sounds like" things because you will not hear what I am saying without those "things".

I was responding to what you said.


In surrender to Him the "choice" was made, and I already explained that to me was the only choice I wanted to make because of His love for me, and that His spiritual influence was greater than any flesh. Therefore, because His spiritual influence was greater than your flesh, the only choice you HAD was belief --- "Irresistible Grace", absolutely what Calvinism teaches (the "I" in TULIP).

But what about your good friend, Jayne Deaux? You've been trying and trying for YEARS to lead her to Jesus, but she just isn't interested. Why isn't God's influence greater than HER flesh? You see --- by saying that God's influence is greater than any one person's ability to RESIST, therefore His influence is NOT greater than an OTHER person can resist --- so God MUST be exercising DIFFERENT influences for different people, which would therefore make His judgment FALSE --- for it would be His differing INFLUENCES that decide men's fates, not anything for which they could be JUDGED!!!

And that conflicts what Scripture says; Rom2:4-8 (for instance) asserts that God's kindness LEADS to repentance (implication is "leads everyone"), and those WHO seek glory and honor and immortality receive eternal life, but those WHO seek sin receive wrath which they chose for themselves.

It conflicts Acts17:26-31 --- where Paul says God puts people when and where they CAN seek Him, though He's not far from anyone, and He commands all men everywhere to repent, having furnished proof to all men by raising Jesus.

The idea of "irresistible faith", is inseparable from "gifted faith". Again, no matter whether faith is a direct gift from God, or if it is irresistible when God exclusively calls and regenerates us --- if all men are not sincerely called the same, so all can be saved (therefore "faith" is a choice BY us and not a gift FROM God), then there is no basis for a Judgment.

Nick
Oct 20th 2013, 10:22 PM
The Centurion is a great example of faith being a gift from God and not something self-generated. He risked his life by publicly displaying his faith that Jesus would heal his paralyzed servant by just speaking the word. This type of faith is given from God, not something we can obtain apart from God, as it truly is a gift from God. This is what Paul means by salvation by grace through faith. This particular Centurion was in charge of Capernaum and declares himself to be a follower of Jesus. That admission could have ended the man's career or even got him killed. That's why Jesus commends his faith as being the greatest in all of Israel.

ewq1938
Oct 20th 2013, 10:35 PM
The Centurion is a great example of faith being a gift from God and not something self-generated. He risked his life by publicly displaying his faith that Jesus would heal his paralyzed servant by just speaking the word. This type of faith is given from God, not something we can obtain apart from God, as it truly is a gift from God.

And how exactly do you prove this to be true?

Gadgeteer
Oct 20th 2013, 10:41 PM
The Centurion is a great example of faith being a gift from God and not something self-generated. He risked his life by publicly displaying his faith that Jesus would heal his paralyzed servant by just speaking the word.Hi, Nick. :wave:

How do you perceive this exemplifies faith being "gifted by God"? I don't see it.

The Centurion said, "I know how authority works, I have authority and all I have to do is command things --- so You can just SPEAK THE WORD, even from here, and my servant will be healed."

What is the logic behind Jesus marveling at such a great faith, if it all was really God's decision?


This type of faith is given from God, not something we can obtain apart from God, as it truly is a gift from God. What if GRACE if the gift from God, but faith is the decision to receive it? That fits Titus2:11 perfectly, doesn't it? It fits Rom2:4-8 as discussed previous post, it fits everything else.

Can you fit "gifted-faith" to any of these verses?


This is what Paul means by salvation by grace through faith.On Eph2:8, noted Greek scholar & Bible commentator A.T.Robertson states, "Grace is God's part, faith is ours."


This particular Centurion was in charge of Capernaum and declares himself to be a follower of Jesus. That admission could have ended the man's career or even gotten him killed. That's why Jesus commends his faith as being the greatest in all of Israel.

What's the big deal, if the man's faith was fully decided by God?

Jesus was marveling at His FATHER'S CHOICE?

How does that make sense?

Nick
Oct 20th 2013, 10:53 PM
And how exactly do you prove this to be true?

Why would this man in charge of all of Capernaum risk his life by being identified as a believer? That type of effectual calling and subsequent conviction comes ONLY from God.

Bandit
Oct 20th 2013, 11:06 PM
Why would this man in charge of all of Capernaum risk his life by being identified as a believer? That type of effectual calling and subsequent conviction comes ONLY from God.

Hello Nick, (and excuse me for butting in), but it sounds to me that since you cannot accept that a person would willfully chose to believe, that the only choice left is that God must have caused their response.

Nick
Oct 20th 2013, 11:41 PM
Hello Nick, (and excuse me for butting in), but it sounds to me that since you cannot accept that a person would willfully chose to believe, that the only choice left is that God must have caused their response.

I believe the response is initiated by God, which is in-line with Scripture. Where me and others seem to depart is on the difference between a general calling and an effectual one. Keep in mind, the Centurion has no religious schooling by which to base his faith, a gift from God. The Romans worshipped pagan gods, and Caesar. Augustus Caesar referred to himself as of the son of god.

Scooby_Snacks
Oct 21st 2013, 01:43 AM
I'll try to do better. :hug:

The question is "how is that ability given"? And to whom?

Many who hold to "Sovereign Predestined Salvation" perceive that the ability to believe and to be obedient, is given only to a few, for whom obedience and faith are then irresistible. No matter whether they think that "faith" is a direct gift FROM God, or if it is the irresistible consequence of God's sovereign action in exclusive individuals' lives.

I already understand you don't like this doctrine, your perception of this doctrine is what it is. I have read the arguments, I have read how one side says this is what it means, another side says no, it doesn't mean that it means this! All the while this tower of babble continues on and on...



My perception (as you well know) is that the ability to believe/obey is given to everyone, and each person must make the choice to exercise it, or to prefer sin.

Yes I know this.

"The grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men. Titus2:11



I believe this scripture in context is further encouragement/reminder of the grace of God that trains us in the teachings that reflect the life of a Christian in society. Thus in this manner He is able to reach anyone (my version says FOR all men) for the witness is just as much a part of showing those in the world those in Christ are different, and can be believable to those who they minister to. Also, in this manner of reflection the cultures that are around them will have no effect on the Gospel Message. No one knows who will and will not believe.

Titus 2:11-14
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age,waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.






I am very glad you were drawn to Him; I find the reality of having you as a sister in Christ forever, a delight and a joy.
But are you worried about me because I do not see things the same way as you?


Now, what will you and I say to people of the world, who do not believe in Jesus? That He lived, died, and lives again -- and that they have a choice?

I bet you and I agree on that.


I never said I didn't believe I make choices. I just said that I do not believe the human will is completely "free" from influence, ever.
There is no reason not to state that making a choice is necessary, it is a part of the whole.




I was responding to what you said.

I understand your responses are also not free from the influence of your studies.



Therefore, because His spiritual influence was greater than your flesh, the only choice you HAD was belief --- "Irresistible Grace", absolutely what Calvinism teaches (the "I" in TULIP).


It is the choice I wanted to make, and His influence was the reason I made it, because without His Word, His Law, His Spirit those that were in my life, I would not have chosen anything except the life I was leading up till that point. These things all came together. But I didn't know doctrine, I didn't know about anything except what I was experiencing. It cannot make me anything other than who I am-- Not a person who believes something you think is false, not anything except what He has made me. My testimony is something no person can remove from me, ever.


But what about your good friend, Jayne Deaux? You've been trying and trying for YEARS to lead her to Jesus, but she just isn't interested. Why isn't God's influence greater than HER flesh? You see --- by saying that God's influence is greater than any one person's ability to RESIST, therefore His influence is NOT greater than an OTHER person can resist --- so God MUST be exercising DIFFERENT influences for different people, which would therefore make His judgment FALSE --- for it would be His differing INFLUENCES that decide men's fates, not anything for which they could be JUDGED!!!


I never said that God's influence will or will not be greater for others. I went a long time knowing what tracks said, knowing what the Gospel said. I was a hard case, and so for Jayne Deaux there is always hope as long as she lives or before He returns that He will allow circumstances to come together to ready her heart to receive those seeds let them sprout up and believe as He did in my case.

My own experience and understanding, is limited and not to be compared to His mysterious ways-- something I do allow for and believe are present with Him and through us.



And that conflicts what Scripture says; Rom2:4-8 (for instance) asserts that God's kindness LEADS to repentance (implication is "leads everyone"), and those WHO seek glory and honor and immortality receive eternal life, but those WHO seek sin receive wrath which they chose for themselves.

It conflicts Acts17:26-31 --- where Paul says God puts people when and where they CAN seek Him, though He's not far from anyone, and He commands all men everywhere to repent, having furnished proof to all men by raising Jesus.

The idea of "irresistible faith", is inseparable from "gifted faith". Again, no matter whether faith is a direct gift from God, or if it is irresistible when God exclusively calls and regenerates us --- if all men are not sincerely called the same, so all can be saved (therefore "faith" is a choice BY us and not a gift FROM God), then there is no basis for a Judgment.

Your perception that my personal experience and testimony contradicts scripture will just have to be assessed in the afterlife, since it is not enough for you today. :dunno:

ewq1938
Oct 21st 2013, 01:45 AM
Why would this man in charge of all of Capernaum risk his life by being identified as a believer?

Because he was a believer. Same reason anyone has ever risked their lives or reputation.

Nick
Oct 21st 2013, 02:33 AM
Because he was a believer. Same reason anyone has ever risked their lives or reputation.

I'll suggest the same thing that was suggested to me. Read other historical accounts of that period of time besides the Bible to get a more rounded perspective of the Roman occupation and oppression. More importantly, books that give detailed accounts of what happened when you didn't conform to the law of the land. There is a book that just came out recently called "Killing Jesus" which is factual, historical, accurate and sobering.

ewq1938
Oct 21st 2013, 03:09 AM
The bible is the only book that I need to understand this. As everyone has already said, there is nothing at all to support that God miraculously gave this Roman faith.



I'll suggest the same thing that was suggested to me. Read other historical accounts of that period of time besides the Bible to get a more rounded perspective of the Roman occupation and oppression. More importantly, books that give detailed accounts of what happened when you didn't conform to the law of the land. There is a book that just came out recently called "Killing Jesus" which is factual, historical, accurate and sobering.

episkopos
Oct 21st 2013, 01:44 PM
Human faith takes us to a belief in fantasies. The tooth fairy and Santa Claus are both objects of a human belief. Is this the kind of faith that God requires of us? Does this type of belief have resurrection power?

Eyelog
Oct 21st 2013, 08:17 PM
Actually I believe there is only one faith.

Gen 3:23 states the faith (belief) is something that required being revealed. That while awaiting that revelation all were locked together under the law and in V22 locked together as sinners. Verse 24 says that it is this faith (belief) that is to be revealed by which we will justified, that is removed from being under the law. Verse 23 also speaks of this time of being under the law as before the faith (the belief) came. Verse 25 states those who were once locked together under the law, the schoolmaster are no longer under the schoolmaster being the faith (the belief) has come; Been revealed.

In the Old Testament God called people. He also did not call people. He called them for the bringing about of the faith. The faith of Abraham wasn't what he believed about something. The faith of Abraham was that in his seed (singular see Gal 3:16) the Christ all the people of the earth would be blessed, with Abraham. That blessing comes to us through the gift of the Holy Spirit. The very Spirit that Jesus said could not be given unless he went away. If he, Jesus was not obedient unto death even the death of the cross there would be no Spirit given. Jesus was obedient unto death even the death of the cross. Jesus was dead. Jesus is the only one born of woman, Jesus the seed of Abraham was dead and there could not be any blessing that could be given to anyone if the person to receive it and through whom it was to be given were dead. 1 Cor 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Without the resurrection of Jesus from the dead Jesus would still be dead and there would be no faith. The Holy Spirit would not have been received by the child of promise and could not be given to anyone else. Acts 2:33 states emphatically Jesus first received the promise of the Holy Spirit from the Father and then it was shed forth. Titus 3:5,6 says the exact same thing yet no one will believe that. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Truth. God calls and gives the Holy Spirit. Why. Paul was on his way to Damascus to persecute the followers of Christ. Paul says this in 1 Tim 1:13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

I ask; Was it being called and given the Spirit of Truth that changed Paul from being an unbeliever unto a believer?

Or did Paul all of a sudden drum up some mystical faith from within himself and become a believer and then God gave him the Holy Spirit?

Is he a believer because of something within himself or did God make him a sheep, a believing one?

Percho, I believe all faith is synergistic.

percho
Oct 22nd 2013, 04:18 AM
Percho, I believe all faith is synergistic.


I know and I, Monergism

Gadgeteer
Oct 22nd 2013, 12:20 PM
He was obedient, therefore, I am given all ability through Him to be as well. Without Him I will not and cannot be obedient.
The question is "how is that ability given"? And to whom?I already understand you don't like this doctrine, your perception of this doctrine is what it is. I have read the arguments, I have read how one side says this is what it means, another side says no, it doesn't mean that it means this! All the while this tower of babble continues on and on...It "continues on and on", because people (in general) will not engage the Scriptures. Are the verses vague enough that two disparate viewpoints can both persist? I say no; what do those who hold to an OSAS view like "Sovereign Predestination" say? More to the point, what do they say about the verses?

Note you did not answer my question(s). How is the ability given, and to whom? Is the ability given to only a FEW (and the rest are outta-luck) --- and is it given to irresistibly CAUSE belief?



My perception (as you well know) is that the ability to believe/obey is given to everyone, and each person must make the choice to exercise it, or to prefer sin. Yes I know this.So what's your perception? Given to everyone, or to only a few?


I believe this scripture in context is further encouragement/reminder of the grace of God that trains us in the teachings that reflect the life of a Christian in society. Thus in this manner He is able to reach anyone (my version says FOR all men) for the witness is just as much a part of showing those in the world those in Christ are different, and can be believable to those who they minister to. Also, in this manner of reflection the cultures that are around them will have no effect on the Gospel Message. No one knows who will and will not believe. So "all men" doesn't mean "all men"?

Titus 2:11-14
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age,waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.

Throughout Scripture, "all" --- means "all". Maybe clearest in Rom5:18-19. An exact equality is used to contrast those to whom condemnation came, with those to whom justification came.

"SO THEN condemnation came to all, EVEN SO justification came to all.

SO THEN all, EVEN SO few? No way; justification came to every last person to whom condemnation came!


But are you worried about me because I do not see things the same way as you?You and I are "earnestly contending for the faith" (Jude3), to "exhort with sound doctrine and refute those who contradict" (Titus1:8-9). And we do that, by supporting our perceptions with Scripture.


I never said I didn't believe I make choices. I just said that I do not believe the human will is completely "free" from influence, ever.I think we should discuss what "influence" means to each of us.

There is a doctrine called "Compatibilism", which attempts to fit "free will" with "sovereign predestination". In this doctrine heart-change is considered monergistic, more parallel with a "lobotomy" --- the will is fully predicated on God's sovereign determinism; if the heart is SOVEREIGNLY CHANGED ("lobotomized") then the will can ONLY desire to believe and be saved.

But a will which has no choice but one, cannot be called "free"!


There is no reason not to state that making a choice is necessary, it is a part of the whole. But who's really making it? Under "Compatibilism", we are just extensions of HIS choice. Making His Judgment (for our choices!) rather silly! Rom2:4-8!!!


In surrender to Him the "choice" was made, and I already explained that to me was the only choice I wanted to make because of His love for me, and that His spiritual influence was greater than any flesh.
Therefore, because His spiritual influence was greater than your flesh, the only choice you HAD was belief --- "Irresistible Grace", absolutely what Calvinism teaches (the "I" in TULIP).I understand your responses are also not free from the influence of your studies. What you said (quoted in purple), reflects Compatibilism. And I'm asking where that is in Scripture.


It is the choice I wanted to make, and His influence was the reason I made it, because without His Word, His Law, His Spirit those that were in my life, I would not have chosen anything except the life I was leading up till that point.I challenge your word, "REASON". The reason you made the choice is because He revealed Himself to you? What about all those to whom He reveals Himself but they choose NOT to believe? What is THEIR reason?

You hafta cling to the idea "God does not reveal Himself to every person the SAME."

Yes, He does; Acts17:26-31 alone should settle it. But add to that John10:38, 1Tim2:1-4, and dozens of other "ALL MEN/THE WORLD" passages. And every person has the same revelation and chance, even those who have not actually heard the name "Jesus" (Rom1:19-20, Rom2:14-16!).


These things all came together. But I didn't know doctrine, I didn't know about anything except what I was experiencing. It cannot make me anything other than who I am-- Not a person who believes something you think is false, not anything except what He has made me. My testimony is something no person can remove from me, ever. "Doctrine" is simply an understanding of Scriptural teaching. Two who disagree can be singly right, or jointly wrong; we cite the verses to discover which we are.


I never said that God's influence will or will not be greater for others.I did say that --- it is the SAME for EACH, or God is unjust and a fraudulent judge!

If you are saying that God's influence in YOUR life irresistibly led to faith, but He does not influence JAYNE'S life so that SHE will believe, then at the Final Judgment God is really condemning HIMSELF, not Jayne!!!

Isn't He?


I went a long time knowing what tracts said, knowing what the Gospel said. I was a hard case, and so for Jayne Deaux there is always hope as long as she lives or before He returns that He will allow circumstances to come together to ready her heart to receive those seeds let them sprout up and believe as He did in my case. Now you are giving mixed messages.

1. It is the choice I wanted to make, and His influence was the reason I made it, because without His Word, His Law, His Spirit those that were in my life, I would not have chosen anything except the life I was leading up till that point.

2. There is always hope ...that He will allow ....her heart to receive ...and believe.


Okay, I was wrong; not "mixed messages", both are the same --- GOD DECIDES and then judges HIMSELF on what He decided. Jesus calls MEN wise or foolish for believing or not (Matt7:24-27), even though GOD DECIDES WHO DOES WHAT.

And in #2 above you are praying that God may CHANGE HIS SOVEREIGN UNCHANGEABLE WILL!!!

Have you perceived these contradictions before in the doctrine of "Sovereign Predestination"?


My own experience and understanding, is limited and not to be compared to His mysterious ways-- something I do allow for and believe are present with Him and through us. But can you find your understanding in SCRIPTURE? I have found mine, as fully supported by the cited verses. What are your cited verses?


Your perception that my personal experience and testimony contradicts scripture will just have to be assessed in the afterlife, since it is not enough for you today.


It "continues on and on", because people (in general) will not engage the Scriptures. Are the verses vague enough that two disparate viewpoints can both persist? I say no; what do those who hold to an OSAS view like "Sovereign Predestination" say? More to the point, what do they say about the verses?

Note you did not answer my question(s). How is the ability given, and to whom? Is the ability given to only a FEW (and the rest are outta-luck) --- and is it given to irresistibly CAUSE belief?

I would like you to consider what kind of judgment God will enact, if God decides whose heart IS ABLE to receive the Gospel and whose is not.

Exactly who is God going to be judging?

As always, thank you for your thoughts; I hope you do not think unkindly of me, but rather are led deeper into Scripture by these discussions, and closer to Him.

:-)

Gadgeteer
Oct 22nd 2013, 12:28 PM
I know and I, Monergism

And that is the whole point of the thread. Is faith GIFTED by God to a few whom He chooses ("monergism"), or are all men drawn to where they CAN believe and each decides his own faith (1Pet1:9)?


It "continues on and on", because people (in general) will not engage the Scriptures. Are the verses vague enough that two disparate viewpoints can both persist? I say no; what do those who hold to an OSAS view like "Sovereign Predestination" say? More to the point, what do they say about the verses?

Note you did not answer my question(s). How is the ability given, and to whom? Is the ability given to only a FEW (and the rest are outta-luck) --- and is it given to irresistibly CAUSE belief?

If you would respond to Post 119 (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php/251074-quot-Faith-quot-is-a-gift-FROM-God!?p=3060853#post3060853), it cuts to the heart of the issue; is faith "gifted by God" and we are flotsam and jetsam in the hands of an "all-sovereign-predestining God"? Or does He draw ALL men to the door of salvation, and then faith is an active conscious decision, the act that RECEIVES His salvation?

How does your "Monergism" align with Scripture? WHERE is it in Scripture?

Gadgeteer
Oct 22nd 2013, 12:39 PM
The bible is the only book that I need to understand this. As everyone has already said, there is nothing at all to support that God miraculously gave this Roman faith.

That really is the case. And isn't it silly to perceive that GOD decides faith (Jesus would be fully knowing this), and Jesus saying "According to your faith" and "never have I SEEN such faith"?

He shoulda said "Never have I known the Father to GIVE such faith!"

Which would totally cause a tsunami with passages like John14:1-10...

Gadgeteer
Oct 22nd 2013, 12:43 PM
I believe the response is initiated by God, which is in-line with Scripture. Where me and others seem to depart is on the difference between a general calling and an effectual one. Keep in mind, the Centurion has no religious schooling by which to base his faith, a gift from God. The Romans worshipped pagan gods, and Caesar. Augustus Caesar referred to himself as of the son of god.

Hi, Nick! :wave:

Did you see my Post 108 (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php/251074-quot-Faith-quot-is-a-gift-FROM-God!?p=3060341#post3060341) to you?

:-)

Redeemed by Grace
Oct 22nd 2013, 12:45 PM
Romans 12:3 For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.

Gadgeteer
Oct 22nd 2013, 12:57 PM
Romans 12:3 For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.

Hi, Redeemed! :wave:

God does not "allot to SOME people a certain AMOUNT of faith, and allot ZERO faith to those whom He ordains to be sinful and to PERISH."

Rom12:3 is a great example of "Semitic View" (Anthropomorphism), which occurs in many places; the devil does not have the power to block salvation from men in 2Cor4:3-4 (no denying Jesus' words in Matt13:15 "men close their OWN eyes and ears against salvation!). God did not harden Pharaoh's heart (Exodus10:1), Pharaoh did it himself (Exodus 9:34, two verses earlier).

Rom12:3 is just a First Century way of saying "As much faith as each man HAS."

Now --- will you engage my last several posts? Thanx in advance.

:-)

Redeemed by Grace
Oct 22nd 2013, 02:12 PM
Rom12:3 is just a First Century way of saying "As much faith as each man HAS."

This is a new one I've not heard... :rofl:

And I'm passing, thanks

Nick
Oct 22nd 2013, 04:28 PM
Hi, Nick! :wave:

Did you see my Post 108 (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php/251074-quot-Faith-quot-is-a-gift-FROM-God!?p=3060341#post3060341) to you?

:-)

I did. Although I didn't respond directly to it I believe most, if not all, your counterpoints were addressed in the subsequent posts I made to others. Was there something specific I didn't hit on in my other posts?

Gene Dale
Oct 22nd 2013, 05:35 PM
Yes, real true faith REQUIRES an object to which it must point back to. If the object is not really there, then you have the definition of blind faith. Failure to understand God's covenants will result in false doctrine. Man was put under sin the moment he was told there was a law that defined it. Rejecting God's will for you, is the definition of sin. This was/is God's first unilateral covenant, His Law. Love me, Love thy neighbor.

Grace is there by no doing of a created being, but we are nonetheless the reason for it are we not? That doesnt mean God can not have the prerogative to surround Himself in loving beings that would rather overcome a sinful nature for that of a clean spiritual one. Whether you are born into sin or not, you must willfully rebel against God in order to refuse, or reject His gift of grace, this is to blaspheme the Spirit. When God's Spirit no longer has a redeeming effect on the heart, your cup of iniquity is full, this is true of man and nation alike. The faithful will overcome. Faith has a cause (Grace) and effect (Life eternal). You have a relationship with God whether you acknowledge it or not, both corporately and individually. You fall under God's Law.

So yes, faith is a gift of God, because that faith points to the gift. No gift, no faith, that is...except the blind kind. Faith is a poorly understood word. Surely God is the reason for your faith, but the inverse is not true...that is, that He is the reason for your lack there of, thus the different viewpoints. He was willing that no one should perish but have everlasting life, not one individual, that was His will. Love entails necessarily, free will. Whosoever believed, received His grace, whosoever did not, refused the Spirit. This sin cannot be forgiven or placed upon the scapegoat, because you willfully committed it, just like Satan.


Hebrews 10

26For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES. 28Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on [the testimony of] two or three witnesses. 29How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30For we know Him who said, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY." And again, "THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE." 31It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.


God cannot withhold his gift from someone without them first rejecting the Spirit (of grace). Thus if He did, He would thereby divide Himself against His own creation. God does not bind our free will choice, we are moral free agents.


Deuteronomy 30:19 - I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Mark 3:23-30 (KJV)23 And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan? 24 And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. 25 And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand. 26 And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end. 27 No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house. 28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: 29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation: 30 Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit.

Revelation 22:17 - And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Romans 1:18-21 (KJV)18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

All of Psalms 19.

James 1:13 - Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

1 Jn 5:18 (NIV) We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the one who was born of God keeps him safe, and the evil one does not touch him.

Revelation 12:9 (KJV) And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Hebrews 13:8 - Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Hebrews 11:6 - But without faith [it is] impossible to please [him]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.


Faith is very misunderstood i think, if you truly have any, then you've had to choose or deny something at some point that goes directly against your own sinful nature, usually at a stiff price.

Gadgeteer
Oct 22nd 2013, 07:15 PM
Rom12:3 is just a First Century way of saying "As much faith as each man HAS."

This is a new one I've not heard...Then you've not been reading my posts.

As we've discussed, God hardens some whom He wishes (Rom9:18, Ex10:1) and has mercy on some whom He wishes --- right? WRONG. God has mercy on ALL, Rom11:32. And Pharaoh hardened HIMSELF (Ex9:34).

The devil closes men's hearts against salvation, apart from their choices (2Cor4:3-4) --- right? WRONG --- men close their OWN eyes and ears against salvation (Matt13:15 --- was Jesus wrong, or right?), and a man turns to God by faith so that the devil's veil over his heart is removed (2Cor3:16)!

God hardens --- the devil blinds --- and God gives a measure of faith. Every one is "Semitic View". Just posting a laughing smiley does not refute the idea.


And I'm passing, thanks

OSAS people always do, Redeemed; there's no other way to continue with OSAS.

Again, no offense meant.

OSAS #1 "Antinomianism" is overturned by 1Cor6:9-11, Eph5:5-6, Gal5:19-21.
OSAS #2 "Eternal Security" is overturned by many, Heb10:26-29, James5:19-20, all of Hebrews.
OSAS #3 "Sovereign Predestination" is overturned by many more, 2Tim2:1-4, Titus2:11, Acts17:26-31!


And I'm passing, thanks

Yup, each of us comes to many forks-in-the-road. At each one, before us lies the path to the left, and the path to the right. If ONE of those paths is paved with clear verses rejecting NO Scripture --- but the other is paved with only a few verses by themselves and rejects the verses that the first path EMBRACES, which path is wiser to take?

"I'm passing", is just choosing the path which does not have all of the stones that the other path does; just shrug and walk on by those passages --- "There MUST be an explanation, I know this is the right path even if it doesn't have all the paving-stones of the other path; I'll figure out the explanation later..."

;-)

Redeemed by Grace
Oct 22nd 2013, 07:36 PM
With all that your 'read into' my post of scriptures, you do tempt me to reply to your posts, but seeing that I need to resist temptation again -- hope you had fun, but will pass.

Gadgeteer
Oct 22nd 2013, 09:01 PM
I did. Although I didn't respond directly to it I believe most, if not all, your counterpoints were addressed in the subsequent posts I made to others. Was there something specific I didn't hit on in my other posts?

Well, specifically --- why was Jesus amazed at the Centurion's level of faith?


"Truly I say to you, I have not found such great faith with anyone in Israel." ...Let it be done to you as you have believed." Matt8:10,13

Not only was Jesus impressed by the guy's great faith, He healed the servant AS the Centurion had believed. Question --- do Jesus' words read as though the belief and healing were according to God's ordination? Or do the words read as though the healing was BECAUSE OF the Centurion's belief?

Your position has Jesus feigning surprise at God's level of "gifted-faith" in the Centurion, and then PRETENDING that the Centurion had something to do with the healing. But I read it straight-forward --- Jesus amazed at how much faith the Centurion had, and then healing the servant-boy accordingly.


So --- why is your understanding more credible than mine?

Nick
Oct 22nd 2013, 09:41 PM
Well, specifically --- why was Jesus amazed at the Centurion's level of faith?

"Truly I say to you, I have not found such great faith with anyone in Israel." ...Let it be done to you as you have believed." Matt8:10,13

Not only was Jesus impressed by the guy's great faith, He healed the servant AS the Centurion had believed. Question --- do Jesus' words read as though the belief and healing were according to God's ordination? Or do the words read as though the healing was BECAUSE OF the Centurion's belief?

Your position has Jesus feigning surprise at God's level of "gifted-faith" in the Centurion, and then PRETENDING that the Centurion had something to do with the healing. But I read it straight-forward --- Jesus amazed at how much faith the Centurion had, and then healing the servant-boy accordingly.


So --- why is your understanding more credible than mine?

There were instances that did catch Jesus by surprise because he chose not to have everything from the father revealed to him. In other words, he set aside his divinity in the case of the Centurion. One clear example of this is when the disciples asked about the end of times.

Gadgeteer
Oct 22nd 2013, 10:01 PM
There were instances that did catch Jesus by surprise because he chose not to have everything from the father revealed to him. In other words, he set aside his divinity in the case of the Centurion. One clear example of this is when the disciples asked about the end of times.

But that doesn't apply here; "end times" has nothing to do with whether faith is given BY God, or if faith is something men do which God RECEIVES. Jesus would know about "faith" --- in Matt9:12-13, He came for sick/sinners, that whoever BELIEVES (not whom God GIVES belief to) would be healed/forgiven.

The whole discourse (about the Centurion in Matt8) reads of "CAUSAL-faith", that is the centurion's faith caused the healing --- you would have to argue that both faith and healing are God-decided --- so if Jesus could be surprised by ONE (the level of faith), why wouldn't He be surprised by the OTHER (whether or not the man would be healed)?

Jesus knew who would be healed, and in all cases (Matt9:22, 29) it is according to their faith.

This fits with 1Pet1:9, "receive as the OUTCOME OF YOUR FAITH salvation".

Where in Scripture is the idea of "salvation/healing/AND-FAITH is the outcome of God's choice"?

percho
Oct 22nd 2013, 10:12 PM
And that is the whole point of the thread. Is faith GIFTED by God to a few whom He chooses ("monergism"), or are all men drawn to where they CAN believe and each decides his own faith (1Pet1:9)?



If you would respond to Post 119 (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php/251074-quot-Faith-quot-is-a-gift-FROM-God!?p=3060853#post3060853), it cuts to the heart of the issue; is faith "gifted by God" and we are flotsam and jetsam in the hands of an "all-sovereign-predestining God"? Or does He draw ALL men to the door of salvation, and then faith is an active conscious decision, the act that RECEIVES His salvation?

How does your "Monergism" align with Scripture? WHERE is it in Scripture?

To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 2 Cor 5:19

Let's us assume, being it is stated, the above is exactly what God did in Christ.

When did God do that? What kicked this reconciling into gear?

Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life. Gen 3:23,24 Behold, the LORD'S hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear: But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear. Isa 59:1,2

Until something is done about sin no man can could come to God. God choose according to his purpose some leading up to that time of when something would be done about sin. Those called by God were called for purpose unto Christ. According to Gal 3:23 before something was done concerning sin all mankind was shut up into the faith. Garrisoned together from the faith. The faith had not even been revealed. Verses 22,23,24. It would be the faith that was to come, the faith to be revealed that would take cars of the sin problem.

Prior to the sin problem being taken care of man was called by faith (for faith which was to come) after the sin problem was solved man is called through the faith (that is the faith that has come).

What was it that took care of the sin problem? -----These are the feasts of the LORD, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons. Lev 23:4

In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the LORD'S passover. Lev 23:5 --- That is what will take care of the sin problem. Not it is not a holy convocation. There the Passover is not a feast of the Lord. The feasts begin the evening of the beginning of the next day. -- And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread. In the first day ye shall have an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein. Lev 23:6,7

The feast of unleavened bread contained two holy convocations and show the total of requirement for the Passover blood to wash away sin. The Lamb, Christ must needs to die and to be risen from the dead again. See Acts 17:3 The Passover lamb died the fourteenth the fifteenth is a feast day, a holy convocation, but our sins are still with us. Will show proof of that following. The weekly Sabbath, also a holy convocation, followed the Passover and one the morrow after that weekly Sabbath the first day of the week was the sheaf of the wave offering. Also not a holy convocation nor feast. However it pictured Christ being raised from the dead and presenting himself before God the Father to be accepted as for us. The proof being; And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. 1 Cor 15:17 If Christ had not been raised from the dead his death would not have washed away our sins. As Paul said in Acts 17:3 that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; For there to be faith and for the blood to wash away sin requires the washing of regeneration. Jesus the Christ was the firstborn from the dead.

The world has at that point been reconciled; Now can begin the calling. Are all now called? Paul says, Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: 1 Cor 5:7 Live for God because you have been unleavened. What is the next feast?

The feast of firstfruits.

Not all are being called now. Just the firstfruits of the Spirit are presently being called. See Romans 8:23 and back to 15-17 Then there will follow another feast and then another and then another.

When will the rest who have been reconciled be called? There was a first fruits will there be second fruit also of the Spirit?

One thing for sure the saved will have been saved, by grace through the faith. And all that of God.

percho
Oct 22nd 2013, 10:15 PM
The Roman approached Jesus because God the Father drew him to do so.

And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Just as the Father revealed something to Peter.

Bandit
Oct 22nd 2013, 10:55 PM
There were instances that did catch Jesus by surprise because he chose not to have everything from the father revealed to him. In other words, he set aside his divinity in the case of the Centurion. One clear example of this is when the disciples asked about the end of times.

Hello Nick,

May I suggest to you that Jesus did not set aside His divinity here. I submit that He exercised His prerogative as God to decided what to know or not know. Or do you not not allow God that prerogative? If Jesus can choose what to know or not know, why not the Father? Or does your world-view require that unless God chooses to "know" (whatever that means) everything, the world would be out of control? My assumption here is that the Infinite God is a far more complex being (just consider the "Trinity") than my finite mind could ever comprehend, so I would not assume that He must know everything (whatever that means) to be LORD of all. If He were to indicate that He can limit His knowledge and still be Infinite (as Jesus did) who or what am I to disagree?

We say that God is all-powerful, but does that mean that God exhibits this infinite power at all times? We say that God is all-knowing, but does that mean God exhibits that knowledge at all times? And if we say that Jesus is fully God, are not we then saying that God need not exhibit full power and full knowledge at all times in order to remain fully God? So who or what am I to say what God must be or do in these regards? He is God and I am not, so I am not in a position to dictate what being God must mean - for my understanding is nothing.

Nick
Oct 22nd 2013, 11:47 PM
Hello Nick,

May I suggest to you that Jesus did not set aside His divinity here. I submit that He exercised His prerogative as God to decided what to know or not know. Or do you not not allow God that prerogative? If Jesus can choose what to know or not know, why not the Father? Or does your world-view require that unless God chooses to "know" (whatever that means) everything, the world would be out of control? My assumption here is that the Infinite God is a far more complex being (just consider the "Trinity") than my finite mind could ever comprehend, so I would not assume that He must know everything (whatever that means) to be LORD of all. If He were to indicate that He can limit His knowledge and still be Infinite (as Jesus did) who or what am I to disagree?

We say that God is all-powerful, but does that mean that God exhibits this infinite power at all times? We say that God is all-knowing, but does that mean God exhibits that knowledge at all times? And if we say that Jesus is fully God, are not we then saying that God need not exhibit full power and full knowledge at all times in order to remain fully God? So who or what am I to say what God must be or do in these regards? He is God and I am not, so I am not in a position to dictate what being God must mean - for my understanding is nothing.

Phil 2: 5-8 "Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross."

Though Christ had all the rights, privileges, and honors of deity—which he was worthy of and could never be disqualified from—his attitude was not to cling to those things or his position but to be willing to give them up for a season. I believe this was the case in the Centurion example.

Scooby_Snacks
Oct 23rd 2013, 12:17 AM
It "continues on and on", because people (in general) will not engage the Scriptures. Are the verses vague enough that two disparate viewpoints can both persist? I say no; what do those who hold to an OSAS view like "Sovereign Predestination" say? More to the point, what do they say about the verses?

It goes on and on because the desire to live in unity is not as great as the desire to argue and place judgment when there is no reason to do so between people who believe. For me it serves only as a distraction to actually living a life for God. I choose not to live on what I see as a dead end--always holding up the party line and missing out on fellowship that goes beyond the boundaries of doctrinal arguments. I have no problem seeing different views as they are, but that still will not change my personal experience.

I speak openly, but instead of just accepting what I say, what I do not say gets built into a foreign entity. If I am not the first person who has ever told you this, I urge you to take a look at that specific issue.



Note you did not answer my question(s). How is the ability given, and to whom?

Is the ability given to only a FEW (and the rest are outta-luck) --- and is it given to irresistibly CAUSE belief?

So what's your perception? Given to everyone, or to only a few?

So "all men" doesn't mean "all men"?


Throughout Scripture, "all" --- means "all". Maybe clearest in Rom5:18-19. An exact equality is used to contrast those to whom condemnation came, with those to whom justification came.

"SO THEN condemnation came to all, EVEN SO justification came to all.

SO THEN all, EVEN SO few? No way; justification came to every last person to whom condemnation came!

You and I are "earnestly contending for the faith" (Jude3), to "exhort with sound doctrine and refute those who contradict" (Titus1:8-9). And we do that, by supporting our perceptions with Scripture.

I think we should discuss what "influence" means to each of us.

There is a doctrine called "Compatibilism", which attempts to fit "free will" with "sovereign predestination". In this doctrine heart-change is considered monergistic, more parallel with a "lobotomy" --- the will is fully predicated on God's sovereign determinism; if the heart is SOVEREIGNLY CHANGED ("lobotomized") then the will can ONLY desire to believe and be saved.

But a will which has no choice but one, cannot be called "free"!

But who's really making it? Under "Compatibilism", we are just extensions of HIS choice. Making His Judgment (for our choices!) rather silly! Rom2:4-8!!!

What you said (quoted in purple), reflects Compatibilism. And I'm asking where that is in Scripture.

I challenge your word, "REASON". The reason you made the choice is because He revealed Himself to you? What about all those to whom He reveals Himself but they choose NOT to believe? What is THEIR reason?

You hafta cling to the idea "God does not reveal Himself to every person the SAME."

Yes, He does; Acts17:26-31 alone should settle it. But add to that John10:38, 1Tim2:1-4, and dozens of other "ALL MEN/THE WORLD" passages. And every person has the same revelation and chance, even those who have not actually heard the name "Jesus" (Rom1:19-20, Rom2:14-16!).

"Doctrine" is simply an understanding of Scriptural teaching. Two who disagree can be singly right, or jointly wrong; we cite the verses to discover which we are.

I did say that --- it is the SAME for EACH, or God is unjust and a fraudulent judge!

If you are saying that God's influence in YOUR life irresistibly led to faith, but He does not influence JAYNE'S life so that SHE will believe, then at the Final Judgment God is really condemning HIMSELF, not Jayne!!!

Isn't He?



Now you are giving mixed messages.

1. It is the choice I wanted to make, and His influence was the reason I made it, because without His Word, His Law, His Spirit those that were in my life, I would not have chosen anything except the life I was leading up till that point.

2. There is always hope ...that He will allow ....her heart to receive ...and believe.


Okay, I was wrong; not "mixed messages", both are the same --- GOD DECIDES and then judges HIMSELF on what He decided. Jesus calls MEN wise or foolish for believing or not (Matt7:24-27), even though GOD DECIDES WHO DOES WHAT.

And in #2 above you are praying that God may CHANGE HIS SOVEREIGN UNCHANGEABLE WILL!!!

Have you perceived these contradictions before in the doctrine of "Sovereign Predestination"?

But can you find your understanding in SCRIPTURE? I have found mine, as fully supported by the cited verses. What are your cited verses?





I would like you to consider what kind of judgment God will enact, if God decides whose heart IS ABLE to receive the Gospel and whose is not.

Exactly who is God going to be judging?


Any badgering is wasted breath on me. I am insignificant and small. It is obvious because you are either blind or unable to see me.


As always, thank you for your thoughts; I hope you do not think unkindly of me, but rather are led deeper into Scripture by these discussions, and closer to Him.


I don't think unkindly of you, I think unkindly of the specific influence that wishes to create strife and discord among family, and its attempt to swallow up the good of those who allow it to take hold.

Gadgeteer
Oct 23rd 2013, 12:39 AM
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 2 Cor 5:19 Ahhh, but it's CONDITIONAL reconciliation. "Reconciling the world" is provision, those who CHOOSE reconciliation the fulfillment. In Col1:21-23 Jesus has reconciled us to God through His body, if indeed we CONTINUE in the faith firmly established and steadfast and not be moved away from Jesus the Hope of the Gospel. (1Tim1:1)

And the very next verse after your quote, 2Cor5:20, "BE reconciled to God". You --- DO this.


Let's us assume, being it is stated, the above is exactly what God did in Christ. If we agree that "reconciliation" is the provision, for all those who believe and abide.


When did God do that? What kicked this reconciling into gear?

Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life. Gen 3:23,24 Behold, the LORD'S hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear: But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear. Isa 59:1,2And if we turn to the Lord -- Deut30:10 (and Deut 11:28, Jos 24:20, 2Ch 30:9, Jer 3:1, Jer 15:19).


Until something is done about sin no man can could come to God. God choose according to his purpose some leading up to that time of when something would be done about sin. Those called by God were called for purpose unto Christ.Stop --- please support with Scripture the idea of "exclusive selective calling". It's not in Jn12:32, it's not in Rom11:32, and certainly not in Jesus' story of Matt22:2-14.


According to Gal 3:23 before something was done concerning sin all mankind was shut up into the faith.Now connect this with Rom11:32, where everyone was shut up on unbelief so that He would have mercy on ALL.


Garrisoned together from the faith. The faith had not even been revealed. Verses 22,23,24. It would be the faith that was to come, the faith to be revealed that would take care of the sin problem.

Prior to the sin problem being taken care of man was called by faith (for faith which was to come) after the sin problem was solved man is called through the faith (that is the faith that has come).

What was it that took care of the sin problem? -----These are the feasts of the LORD, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons. Lev 23:4

In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the LORD'S passover. Lev 23:5 --- That is what will take care of the sin problem. Not it is not a holy convocation. There the Passover is not a feast of the Lord. The feasts begin the evening of the beginning of the next day. -- And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread. In the first day ye shall have an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein. Lev 23:6,7Actually, the kingdom of God is LIKE a wedding-feast. Matt22:2-14. And no one is uninvited.

Everyone is invited, the king decides NOTHING, each decides to come (and put on the king's clean clothes) for himself.


The feast of unleavened bread contained two holy convocations and show the total of requirement for the Passover blood to wash away sin. The Lamb, Christ must needs to die and to be risen from the dead again. See Acts 17:3While you are in Acts17, please don't overlook 26-31 --- ALL MEN may seek and may find Him, He's not far from anyone; and the Resurrection is proof to ALL MEN, Jesus commands ALL MEN EVERYWHERE to repent.

NO one is excluded, Percho. No "exclusivity", no "partiality/favoritism" (Acts10:34-35).


The Passover lamb died the fourteenth the fifteenth is a feast day, a holy convocation, but our sins are still with us. Will show proof of that following. The weekly Sabbath, also a holy convocation, followed the Passover and one the morrow after that weekly Sabbath the first day of the week was the sheaf of the wave offering. Also not a holy convocation nor feast. However it pictured Christ being raised from the dead and presenting himself before God the Father to be accepted as for us. The proof being; And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. 1 Cor 15:17 If Christ had not been raised from the dead his death would not have washed away our sins. As Paul said in Acts 17:3 that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; For there to be faith and for the blood to wash away sin requires the washing of regeneration. Jesus the Christ was the firstborn from the dead.And regeneration comes from (and is caused by) belief!

The right to BECOME adopted children is not granted until after and because of believing and receiving Jesus. Jn1:12!


The world has at that point been reconciled;No, it has not --- hence, "BE reconciled to God". And "reconciled if you CONTINUE in the faith and not be moved away from Jesus".

The world has been reconciled PROVISIONALLY --- actual reconciliation (fulfillment of the provision!) is by believing and receiving Jesus.


Now can begin the calling. Are all now called? Paul says, Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: 1 Cor 5:7 Live for God because you have been unleavened. What is the next feast?Who is not called, Percho? Didn't Jesus mean it when He said He would draw ALL MEN to Himself? ("Helkuo", draw/drag-FORCIBLY.)


The feast of firstfruits.

Not all are being called now. Just the firstfruits of the Spirit are presently being called. See Romans 8:23 and back to 15-17
15) For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have RECEIVED a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!"
16) The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,
17) and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.
18) For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us.
19) For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God.
2) For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope
21) that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.
22) For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.
23) And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.

And exactly how does one RECEIVE the Spirit? AFTER BELIEF! Acts11:17, Eph1:13, etcetera! The right to become adopted children is granted AFTER believing and receiving Jesus and the Spirit! Jn1:12!

The begottenness is all of God and nothing of us (Jn1:13); but becoming begotten in verse 12, is because of our faith/belief!!!!


Then there will follow another feast and then another and then another.

When will the rest who have been reconciled be called? There was a first fruits will there be second fruit also of the Spirit?

One thing for sure the saved will have been saved, by grace through the faith. And all that of God.
No, not "through THE faith" --- when Scripture says "THE faith", it's Jesus' gospel. When it says "BY faith", it is our belief.

Now --- I've given you some very specific verses --- what will you do with them? Can you answer them according to the doctrine of "sovereign predestined salvation"? Or will you find a reason to dismiss them?

What good would a doctrine be that cannot incorporate all Scripture into its fabric?

Gadgeteer
Oct 23rd 2013, 12:52 AM
It goes on and on because the desire to live in unity is not as great as the desire to argue and place judgment when there is no reason to do so between people who believe. For me it serves only as a distraction to actually living a life for God. I choose not to live on what I see as a dead end--always holding up the party line and missing out on fellowship that goes beyond the boundaries of doctrinal arguments. I have no problem seeing different views as they are, but that still will not change my personal experience. Scooby, can a truly-saved person become unsaved? If I perceive "YES", shall I not interfere in the lives of brothers and sisters, for good --- to promote perseverance?

What shall I have gained if I seek "peace and unity" but do not teach the Scriptural admonishments to GUARD oneself against unbelief and apostasy, against a truly-saved-person becoming truly-UNSAVED?

I shall have gained nothing, but perhaps lost a brother or sister. :cry:


I speak openly, but instead of just accepting what I say, what I do not say gets built into a foreign entity. If I am not the first person who has ever told you this, I urge you to take a look at that specific issue.In striving to encourage a brother or sister, of course there is risk of hurting one's feelings. Yet --- if I see someone picnicking on the railroad tracks and hear the 4:10 as it comes barreling towards him or her, shall I not risk his feelings and get him off a track of destruction and back ON a track to preservation?

Mind you, two of the three views of "OSAS" are not of themselves eternally condemning; it is possible to disagree on "Eternal Security" and/or "Sovereign Predestination" but agree in Christ and fellowship in love.

But all three views risk eternal apostasy --- therefore, such agreement and unity absolutely DEMANDS because of its basis in LOVE that we encourage each other away from apostasy and towards perseverance.


"Do not harden your hearts... Take care, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God; but ENCOURAGE one another day after day, lest any ONE of you become hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partners in Christ, IF we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end." Heb3:8-14


Any badgering is wasted breath on me. I am insignificant and small. It is obvious because you are either blind or unable to see me.I'm sorry you see my words as "badgering". Please take a moment and help me refine my speech, such that in the future it will be correctly seen as "encouragement" and not badgering. :-)


I don't think unkindly of you, I think unkindly of the specific influence that wishes to create strife and discord among family, and its attempt to swallow up the good of those who allow it to take hold.

If you truly think I am "after strife and discord", then I can only humbly ask your forgiveness, and hope you can help me refine my speech.

In advance, thank you.

:-)

Scooby_Snacks
Oct 24th 2013, 01:00 AM
Scooby, can a truly-saved person become unsaved? If I perceive "YES", shall I not interfere in the lives of brothers and sisters, for good --- to promote perseverance?

What shall I have gained if I seek "peace and unity" but do not teach the Scriptural admonishments to GUARD oneself against unbelief and apostasy, against a truly-saved-person becoming truly-UNSAVED?

I shall have gained nothing, but perhaps lost a brother or sister.


There is a vast difference between edification of the Body of Christ with the encouragement to persevere V.S. arguing doctrine.



In striving to encourage a brother or sister, of course there is risk of hurting one's feelings.
Yet --- if I see someone picnicking on the rairoad tracks and hear the 4:10 as it comes barreling towards him or her, shall I not risk his feelings and get him off a track of destruction and back ON a track to preservation?


But, by continuing with me you have not already determined that I am in desperate need of your services in this manner? This is not very encouraging to me.

If I see someone on the railroad tracks, call out to them, and reason with them but they don’t move because they really believe it is God’s will that they stay on the tracks they are on, then I carry them in prayer. Let go and Let God.
I cannot make anyone see the same as me, but I can pray for others to see as God sees.




Mind you, two of the three views of "OSAS" are not of themselves eternally condemning; it is possible to disagree on "Eternal Security" and/or "Sovereign Predestination" but agree in Christ and fellowship in love.

But all three views risk eternal apostasy --- therefore, such agreement and unity absolutely DEMANDS because of its basis in LOVE that we encourage each other away from apostasy and towards perseverance.

"Do not harden your hearts... Take care, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God; but ENCOURAGE one another day after day, lest any ONE of you become hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partners in Christ, IF we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end." Heb3:8-14

Sin is a sneaky thing. I have seen the worst of it in myself. Thank The Lord I have seen it because He does what He says: He corrects those He loves. I can expect Him to act upon His promise, as I pray for the Grace to receive this correction when He brings it to light.
I pray no one becomes hardened by sins deceitfulness, and if they do begin to, that He breaks up the ground of their heart that they might repent and return to their first love.


I'm sorry you see my words as "badgering". Please take a moment and help me refine my speech, such that in the future it will be correctly seen as "encouragement" and not badgering. :-)

Having conversation is one thing. Being proselytized is another.



If you truly think I am "after strife and discord", then I can only humbly ask your forgiveness, and hope you can help me refine my speech.

In advance, thank you.

:-)

I do not believe strife and discord is your aim Gadgeteer.

Peace and Grace to you.

Gadgeteer
Oct 24th 2013, 06:21 PM
There is a vast difference between edification of the Body of Christ with the encouragement to persevere V.S. arguing doctrine.Yet we are time after time in Scripture encouraged to "make our salvation steadfast/persevering", and to encourage and not destroy each other. When one person sees discussions as "teaching Scriptural maturity", and another sees it as "arguing/proselytizing", how do both come to balance in their fellowship?


But, by continuing with me you have not already determined that I am in desperate need of your services in this manner? This is not very encouraging to me. No, you and I (for instance) are not arguing opinions --- but what Scripture says. If I think Scripture says ______, and you think Scripture says ______, we cannot both be right; is it not desirable to test both our views against the verses? I believe "All Scripture is inspired by God (God-BREATHED) and suitable for reproof, instruction, training, equipping" (2Tim3:16); and I know you believe that too.

So what is the happy median between two who have different understandings? Many times I speak in frustration, because I cite conspicuous verses and it seems to me that the other person will not interact with those verses.


"That's just your INTERPRETATION; I don't see it that way."

This a general statement, an attitude reflected by pretty much everyone. And I think, "Fine --- then WITH SCRIPTURE tell me what YOUR understanding is, and how yours better fits the writings than mine." I am closed to many things --- I am closed to Atheism and Agnosticism; I am closed to the idea of unrepentant sin. I am open to Scripture --- though I am opinionated, if someone can show me how Scripture disagrees with what I had come to understand, will my understandings not change to reflect Scripture? There's always so much more to learn. Only last year (or so) did I make the connection between Rom10:6-10 and Deut30:11-20; been there for 2000 years, but I hadn't seen it. And I saw how Acts17 fits perfectly. How many understandings can fit the verses?


If I see someone on the railroad tracks, call out to them, and reason with them but they don’t move because they really believe it is God’s will that they stay on the tracks they are on, then I carry them in prayer. Let go and Let God.
I cannot make anyone see the same as me, but I can pray for others to see as God sees.There is a subtlety in posting on message boards --- we are talking to far more than who posts. Look at the "Thread Information" box at the bottom of any given page; sometimes there are THIRTY to FIFTY or more people reading along with us! And over time HUNDREDS (even thousands) will read our words!!! :eek:


Sin is a sneaky thing. I have seen the worst of it in myself. Thank The Lord I have seen it because He does what He says: He corrects those He loves. I can expect Him to act upon His promise, as I pray for the Grace to receive this correction when He brings it to light. Always He sets before us the CHOICE to sin, or the choice to escape sin through His graciously-provided strength. (1Cor10:12-13) Per verses like Heb3:10-12, and James1:14-16, sin can deceive us to "thanatos-death-and-Hell".


I pray no one becomes hardened by sins deceitfulness, and if they do begin to, that He breaks up the ground of their heart that they might repent and return to their first love.Okay, look at what you just said --- you pray that GOD breaks the ground of their heart THAT they repent and turn.

So those who do NOT repent, God has not acted on them the SAME? The whole point of the story of the Prodigal (Luke15) is that the wanderer came to his senses and returned. God (the Prodigal's father!) didn't do anything to go GET the son and change him, the son came back of his own decision! It's the same in James5:19-20 --- IF a wanderer returns, THEN he is restored to eternal life and his sins forgiven! It's the same everywhere else; see 2Tim2:25 where "God-granting-repentance" is subordinate to vs26 "they come to their senses"!

My motivation in talking to you and everyone is to teach we are not PASSIVE in our relationship with God, we are active. We do not sit back and wait for God to "break the ground of our hearts" --- we are warned to NOT HARDEN OUR OWN hearts!!!


Having conversation is one thing. Being proselytized is another.As I said, when does "discussing Scripture" become "proselytizing"? I submit it does when such a discussion becomes one opinion against another opinion! That's why we should be striving to find out what SCRIPTURE says!


I do not believe strife and discord is your aim Gadgeteer.Thank you. :hug:


Peace and Grace to you.

If you will allow me to be blunt about you --- you have a kind and sensitive heart, a heart that is filled with the Spirit and yearns after God. In your words here, it's always a pleasure to see through your eyes. Your very "handle" here is exceptional; I was deeply touched when you shared the inspiration. You are a BLESSING to so many people!!!

I hope and pray you see similar traits in me; and I am confident that you know my motivation, teaching in kindness, that every person with whom I interact will end up closer to God and stronger in faith because of me. That I will be seen as Paul's influence on people AFTER his Damascus-road-experience, AND NOT AS HE WAS BEFORE!!! Knowing that, is there not a gentle gratefulness at a brother's concern, rather than offense at disagreement? If someone still disagrees with me (hopefully with willingness to weave that disagreement solidly around Scriptures), will not he or she recognize my love for them, smile and say "Thank you for being concerned --- I would rather you be concerned than INDIFFERENT"?

In this, we shall therefore all emerge STRONGER in Christ, deeper in fellowship, more patient with each other in the face of differences (all people have differences; how we handle those differences is our maturity!). As a man lost in the desert only escapes by setting his eyes on a FIXED-POINT on the horizon, striding solidly towards his GOAL, let our goal be to celebrate our fellowship with each other and with Christ when He returns and never lose sight of THAT goal. For it will be a feast of incredible joy and celebration! May we be DELIGHTED with all who come there WITH us, no matter who was used by God to bring them.

...and may no one be surprised to see US there!!!

:-)

Scooby_Snacks
Nov 3rd 2013, 03:48 PM
Yet we are time after time in Scripture encouraged to "make our salvation steadfast/persevering", and to encourage and not destroy each other. When one person sees discussions as "teaching Scriptural maturity", and another sees it as "arguing/proselytizing", how do both come to balance in their fellowship?

No, you and I (for instance) are not arguing opinions --- but what Scripture says. If I think Scripture says ______, and you think Scripture says ______, we cannot both be right; is it not desirable to test both our views against the verses? I believe "All Scripture is inspired by God (God-BREATHED) and suitable for reproof, instruction, training, equipping" (2Tim3:16); and I know you believe that too.

So what is the happy median between two who have different understandings? Many times I speak in frustration, because I cite conspicuous verses and it seems to me that the other person will not interact with those verses.

Having different doctrines and different understandings of God is what theology is-- the study of God and His character and the way He works. God expects us to try to figure Him out, but I look forward to knowing Him fully when I drop off this body for a new one. Seeing through a glass dimly means what it means.

What may help with fellowship is to see that I did not ask you to teach me the doctrine you hold fast to, but merely answered a question in the O.P. There was a little bit of a set-up there, and I do know what to expect, as you know now what to expect from me.
I didn't try to teach you anything, nor do I have expectation or desire of what you believe to change, based on our conversations here. That doesn’t mean I am not working very hard to communicate with you.

If we were friends IRL, I would have no problem coming to you with a question regarding scripture. I would still weigh what you shared with what the Holy Spirit impresses upon me. But here what we have is transient sharing and thoughts and positions, with a little bit of warmth thrown in.

I have pre-determined to live peacefully with those who have not had the same experiences as I have or the same walk with God. I enjoy hearing testimony which for me shows the fruit of ones belief.
What is currently under work are the parts of me that judge others unjustly because I believe that is the element that is the biggest problem with the Body today.
If He sanctifies that part of me, because I asked for His help to do so, perhaps I can be of use to Him later on.


Now, if you give me testimony that supports the doctrine that you are supporting, we may get somewhere in fellowship, because I am willing to understand why you believe in the doctrine you support and how that helps you with your daily walk and relationship with God.







"That's just your INTERPRETATION; I don't see it that way."

This a general statement, an attitude reflected by pretty much everyone. And I think, "Fine --- then WITH SCRIPTURE tell me what YOUR understanding is, and how yours better fits the writings than mine." I am closed to many things --- I am closed to Atheism and Agnosticism; I am closed to the idea of unrepentant sin. I am open to Scripture --- though I am opinionated, if someone can show me how Scripture disagrees with what I had come to understand, will my understandings not change to reflect Scripture? There's always so much more to learn. Only last year (or so) did I make the connection between Rom10:6-10 and Deut30:11-20; been there for 2000 years, but I hadn't seen it. And I saw how Acts17 fits perfectly. How many understandings can fit the verses?

There is a subtlety in posting on message boards --- we are talking to far more than who posts. Look at the "Thread Information" box at the bottom of any given page; sometimes there are THIRTY to FIFTY or more people reading along with us! And over time HUNDREDS (even thousands) will read our words!!! :eek:

I suppose having a motivation to teach others is what drives you, but I am not motivated in that same manner. If I were to imagine your house in pictures (that is the inside of your heart and mind) you would have a neat and orderly home, a restored historical building with modern comforts and material and in white trim and light colors. I picture what some might see as an overabundance of libraries of books, stacks of magazines with brilliant photographs with windows that offer a very good view of the ocean.



Always He sets before us the CHOICE to sin, or the choice to escape sin through His graciously-provided strength. (1Cor10:12-13) Per verses like Heb3:10-12, and James1:14-16, sin can deceive us to "thanatos-death-and-Hell".

Okay, look at what you just said --- you pray that GOD breaks the ground of their heart THAT they repent and turn.

So those who do NOT repent, God has not acted on them the SAME? The whole point of the story of the Prodigal (Luke15) is that the wanderer came to his senses and returned. God (the Prodigal's father!) didn't do anything to go GET the son and change him, the son came back of his own decision!
It's the same in James5:19-20 --- IF a wanderer returns, THEN he is restored to eternal life and his sins forgiven! It's the same everywhere else; see 2Tim2:25 where "God-granting-repentance" is subordinate to vs26 "they come to their senses"!

My motivation in talking to you and everyone is to teach we are not PASSIVE in our relationship with God, we are active. We do not sit back and wait for God to "break the ground of our hearts" --- we are warned to NOT HARDEN OUR OWN hearts!!!

I do not believe in a passive relationship with God, and I never stated that I do not make choices, or am not responsible for the choices I make. I cannot control that you seem to have decided who I am and what I believe. What can anyone do with that but <sigh> ?
Listening to God and acting on His guidance is my part and my part does have domino effect when it is His will, and not my own.
He tells me to break up the ground of my heart often, and how do I do that? By seeking Him first. I don't know how to do this! He can and will help me if I ask him.

The ground of my heart was broken (prior to belief) I didn’t break it up myself!
People who were obedient to God, lead by Him to speak to me had part of the eventual ground breaking and revelation. So to sit back when speaking or acting upon what The Holy Spirit impresses upon me is disobedience. I am doing my own will rather than His. There might be different levels of this disobedience, but I believe this impacts me negatively and the loss of opportunity effects others negatively.
When David sinned with Bathsheba and killed her husband and hid it, it took who??
God speaking through one of His prophets for his eyes to be opened to his sin and the ground of his heart to be broken up by God’s Word and Spirit!

There really is no reason to throw the baby out with the bathwater but that is what happens when we think evil of each other instead of good and judgment becomes more important than understanding.
There isn’t anyone here who is greater except the one who is like a child----


If I see Gods hand in everything good, including allowing (not controlling) the prodigal to come to the end of themselves, does that make me evil or does that make me less likely to take glory for myself?

Prodigal wanted to party, so his flesh won, but he was honest. And that is what I believe the story is about-- being honest with God (his dad) more than anything else.
He did not want to serve him, but himself. So he did and found it to be a near death experience.
He learned through it all just how much God loved him. It was never about what he did, but his Dad's love for him. If God corrects those He loves, He knows that our own folly will inevitably lead back to the place of brokeness, desire and williness to serve Him. God grants us His Wisdom, and if we listen to Him life will be blessed, if we don’t listen and do our own thing, we will fall. Condemnation is for those who do not believe God is big enough to forgive and help to rise above that fall.
Self correction only happens because of Gods Word and Spirit, therefore correction always Has him at the root.



As I said, when does "discussing Scripture" become "proselytizing"? I submit it does when such a discussion becomes one opinion against another opinion! That's why we should be striving to find out what SCRIPTURE says!


When I didn't discuss scripture back with you --- because I decided to take a different road of communication with you, one that I hope brings together in a way that citing scripture back and forth cannot.


Thank you. :hug:





If you will allow me to be blunt about you --- you have a kind and sensitive heart, a heart that is filled with the Spirit and yearns after God. In your words here, it's always a pleasure to see through your eyes. Your very "handle" here is exceptional; I was deeply touched when you shared the inspiration. You are a BLESSING to so many people!!!

Thank you Gadgeteer,

If I am filled with The Spirit, then allow that part of me to speak to you, if it will, and not any of my knowledge that comes from the world, and the way it sees things. I know I took a long time to respond, but this morning I am in haste to do so. If God tells me to seek wisdom, then seeking wisdom is the correct response. How can I be wise when I am in haste? Just know I am in haste, and that My Father assigned me to be just a part in His Body, as He assigned every person a part. Some have greater responsibility and outward works in Him that might seem more important, while still others that are weak and poor have perhaps a greater faith-- Just as important, but behind the scenes-- Like a heart valve compared to a hand or a hypothalamus compared to an eye, all are just as beloved.



I hope and pray you see similar traits in me; and I am confident that you know my motivation, teaching in kindness, that every person with whom I interact will end up closer to God and stronger in faith because of me. That I will be seen as Paul's influence on people AFTER his Damascus-road-experience, AND NOT AS HE WAS BEFORE!!! Knowing that, is there not a gentle gratefulness at a brother's concern, rather than offense at disagreement? If someone still disagrees with me (hopefully with willingness to weave that disagreement solidly around Scriptures), will not he or she recognize my love for them, smile and say "Thank you for being concerned --- I would rather you be concerned than INDIFFERENT"?

I am not offended by concern- It is where the concern stems from concerns me.


In this, we shall therefore all emerge STRONGER in Christ, deeper in fellowship, more patient with each other in the face of differences (all people have differences; how we handle those differences is our maturity!). As a man lost in the desert only escapes by setting his eyes on a FIXED-POINT on the horizon, striding solidly towards his GOAL, let our goal be to celebrate our fellowship with each other and with Christ when He returns and never lose sight of THAT goal. For it will be a feast of incredible joy and celebration! May we be DELIGHTED with all who come there WITH us, no matter who was used by God to bring them.

...and may no one be surprised to see US there!!!

:-)

I have faith in Him to work out what needs to be worked out as I hear His voice when He calls and follow His lead, grateful for the opportunity to know Him.

Gene Dale
Nov 4th 2013, 05:04 PM
So at the end of creation week, Adam was deemed to be virtually perfect, in God's eyes. The same was said about Satan. Yet both willfully rebelled against God. Im curious how a once saved always saved viewpoint can reconcile these two examples that seem to contradict that viewpoint. I guess it matters from which judgement seat we are sitting, God's or man's. God surely can say He knows a person was saved from even before they were made, but what has a man ultimately created? OSAS seems a bit dangerous, since after all we are just men, assuming we can look at this from God's POV. As men, in His image, we should also be able to reason, to know when presumptions borderline question begging. I think its dangerous to talk about OSAS at all much less any potential new believer...it may cause them great distress wondering if they have any chance at all as being counted as heirs of Christ.

Scooby_Snacks
Nov 4th 2013, 05:56 PM
So at the end of creation week, Adam was deemed to be virtually perfect, in God's eyes. The same was said about Satan. Yet both willfully rebelled against God. Im curious how a once saved always saved viewpoint can reconcile these two examples that seem to contradict that viewpoint. I guess it matters from which judgement seat we are sitting, God's or man's. God surely can say He knows a person was saved from even before they were made, but what has a man ultimately created? OSAS seems a bit dangerous, since after all we are just men, assuming we can look at this from God's POV. As men, in His image, we should also be able to reason, to know when presumptions borderline question begging. I think its dangerous to talk about OSAS at all much less any potential new believer...it may cause them great distress wondering if they have any chance at all as being counted as heirs of Christ.

Hi Gene Dale--

Do you believe Faith is a gift from God, or something that comes from within yourself only?

Gene Dale
Nov 4th 2013, 06:14 PM
Hi Gene Dale--

Do you believe Faith is a gift from God, or something that comes from within yourself only?

When you say "something that comes from within yourself only", can you be more specific? Im not sure I fully understand what you are asking. Im sorry if this sounds like a dumb question, but given the way "faith" is talked about in general, its best to be as specific as possible.

episkopos
Nov 4th 2013, 06:47 PM
So at the end of creation week, Adam was deemed to be virtually perfect, in God's eyes. The same was said about Satan. Yet both willfully rebelled against God. Im curious how a once saved always saved viewpoint can reconcile these two examples that seem to contradict that viewpoint. I guess it matters from which judgement seat we are sitting, God's or man's. God surely can say He knows a person was saved from even before they were made, but what has a man ultimately created? OSAS seems a bit dangerous, since after all we are just men, assuming we can look at this from God's POV. As men, in His image, we should also be able to reason, to know when presumptions borderline question begging. I think its dangerous to talk about OSAS at all much less any potential new believer...it may cause them great distress wondering if they have any chance at all as being counted as heirs of Christ.

Very wise and welcome here...

Scooby_Snacks
Nov 4th 2013, 07:15 PM
When you say "something that comes from within yourself only", can you be more specific? Im not sure I fully understand what you are asking. Im sorry if this sounds like a dumb question, but given the way "faith" is talked about in general, its best to be as specific as possible.

The O.P title states Faith is a gift from God, but the O.P. does not agree with that statement. Just wondering where you chimed in on it?
Faith is either from God or ourselves, right? *Unless there is another alternative.

the Seeker
Nov 4th 2013, 07:32 PM
Well, I am late to the party, so please forgive me.

My understanding of faith is the word "believe". In order to understand faith and its applications, we must first understand what it means to have faith. Like Walls wrote in the very first page, Romans detail for us that all men are given a certain measure of faith. This means that faith, the ability to believe, is not limited to just the saved.


Romans 12:3; "For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith".

Paul is writing this to a group of believers in Rome. He s warning them to not become pompous, just as many in the churches have become, thinking that their ability to believe in God makes them special. He tells them that EVERY man is given a measure of faith. It is my belief that this statement negates the notion that people are only given faith when they seek God out; for without faith, no one can understand, or even acknowledge Him. The catch for me is that when Paul wrote the words "every man", he was not qualifying. That means that the Muslims, Buddhists, and every person on earth has faith. What they do with that faith is what the Lord will judge them on. Hence the constant references throughout the Bible claiming that every man will be judged based on their actions. There's even a verse that tells us that every thought is revealed and will be judged by Him.

Hebrews 4:12-13
12 For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. 13 Nothing in all creation is hidden from God’s sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account.

What I believe is that many people have hyper-religiousized the terminology in the Bible, augmenting words to suit the fake piousness that is so pervasive in our churches today. It produces a watering down effect that washes basic truths away and replaces them with man-made, watered-down, fruitless terms that keep people in the pews and Pastors with expensive cars and houses. I wonder if God likes the idea of preachers making and hording millions of dollars while the congregations they preach to are working two and three jobs just to pay their bills.

Gene Dale
Nov 4th 2013, 07:42 PM
The O.P title states Faith is a gift from God, but the O.P. does not agree with that statement. Just wondering where you chimed in on it?
Faith is either from God or ourselves, right? *Unless there is another alternative.

i chimed in at #65 if you want to see that post. When i hear "either/or" statements I immediately do a quick self check to see if a false dichotomy is being presented. Grace is God's part, Faith is our part, without the grace, our faith is worthless, we'd be idiots to have faith in something that doesnt exist (God's free gift of grace). Jesus said the same thing through Isaiah, "you use half the wood to warm yourself, but then you carve up the other half and fall face down and worship it!!".

Im paraphrasing of course, but you see my point... A fool would trust in something that cannot save them. Without God's grace, we would also be fools....so "our" faith (read:ownership) is the effect of God's free gift of grace that saves us from sin. We cant take credit and say our faith saves us, because God's grace is the rightful owner of that feat, we only hold on, and trust that He will do it. Our faith is an abstract thing....you cant stub your toe on it, or view it with binoculars... but its good fruit can be real or absent.

Gene Dale
Nov 4th 2013, 07:44 PM
sorry for the :O, looks like colon/capital O is the BB code for that smiley.

i meant (read(colon)Ownership).

shepherdsword
Nov 4th 2013, 08:15 PM
i chimed in at #65 if you want to see that post. When i hear "either/or" statements I immediately do a quick self check to see if a false dichotomy is being presented. Grace is God's part, Faith is our part, without the grace, our faith is worthless, we'd be idiots to have faith in something that doesnt exist (God's free gift of grace). Jesus said the same thing through Isaiah, "you use half the wood to warm yourself, but then you carve up the other half and fall face down and worship it!!".

Im paraphrasing of course, but you see my point... A fool would trust in something that cannot save them. Without God's grace, we would also be fools....so "our" faith (read:ownership) is the effect of God's free gift of grace that saves us from sin. We cant take credit and say our faith saves us, because God's grace is the rightful owner of that feat, we only hold on, and trust that He will do it. Our faith is an abstract thing....you cant stub your toe on it, or view it with binoculars... but its good fruit can be real or absent.

A good word brother. We tend to divide different aspects of God's purpose into little boxes and in doing so distort the entire picture. We make a jigsaw puzzle out of the truth and wonder why we can't see the reality. It only makes sense once you have everything properly placed.

By the way...welcome to the forum :)

Scooby_Snacks
Nov 4th 2013, 08:45 PM
i chimed in at #65 if you want to see that post. When i hear "either/or" statements I immediately do a quick self check to see if a false dichotomy is being presented. Grace is God's part, Faith is our part, without the grace, our faith is worthless, we'd be idiots to have faith in something that doesnt exist (God's free gift of grace). Jesus said the same thing through Isaiah, "you use half the wood to warm yourself, but then you carve up the other half and fall face down and worship it!!".

Im paraphrasing of course, but you see my point... A fool would trust in something that cannot save them. Without God's grace, we would also be fools....so "our" faith (read:ownership) is the effect of God's free gift of grace that saves us from sin. We cant take credit and say our faith saves us, because God's grace is the rightful owner of that feat, we only hold on, and trust that He will do it. Our faith is an abstract thing....you cant stub your toe on it, or view it with binoculars... but its good fruit can be real or absent.

Oh, my bad I didn't know you had posted here already, thank you for responding too, even though you already had.
I will go back and see what you said there...Amazing Grace-- God's Love for us.

Gadgeteer
Nov 4th 2013, 09:10 PM
Having different doctrines and different understandings of God is what theology is-- the study of God and His character and the way He works. God expects us to try to figure Him out, but I look forward to knowing Him fully when I drop off this body for a new one. Seeing through a glass dimly means what it means. Hi, Scooby. :-)

There is another aspect to "theology" --- we study Scripture, to better understand what they wrote. We begin with certain commonalities --- like presumption that Scripture (including the New Testament as it has come to us) is "inspired" (literally "God-breathed"), and that He is not an author of confusion; that is, many principles are clearly taught, and can be exposed openly and not be subject to "interpretive variance". For instance, just as an example --- when God so loved the WORLD, did He really mean "He only loved certain ones He made to BE loved and He does not love most whom He made to BE hated"? Clearly He loves them all, and desires all to live rather than to die spiritually.


What may help with fellowship is to see that I did not ask you to teach me the doctrine you hold fast to, but merely answered a question in the O.P. There was a little bit of a set-up there, and I do know what to expect, as you know now what to expect from me.I've made you angry --- did not intend that. However, anyone who posts on a message board Scripture understandings that differ from others' understandings, can expect a discussion. Note that there is never a discussion between only two people; there are dozens of onlookers, and every participant is welcome.


I didn't try to teach you anything, nor do I have expectation or desire of what you believe to change, based on our conversations here. That doesn’t mean I am not working very hard to communicate with you.It's always your prerogative to disengage conversations. If I feel something anyone says diverges from Scripture, of course I'm going to post the verses I feel are at odds; anyone can disagree with substance, or can disagree and not respond.


If we were friends IRL,"In the Real World"? In Real Life???


I would have no problem coming to you with a question regarding scripture. I would still weigh what you shared with what the Holy Spirit impresses upon me. But here what we have is transient sharing and thoughts and positions, with a little bit of warmth thrown in.Ahhh, I do not want transient thoughts and positions --- I wanna know what Scripture SAYS.


I have pre-determined to live peacefully with those who have not had the same experiences as I have or the same walk with God. I enjoy hearing testimony which for me shows the fruit of one's belief.To each his (her?) own. Discussing theology revives the times of the First Century, when the writers wrote for the edification and maturity of believers. That is what I seek, to bring alive their thoughts and their intent in their teachings. "Time travel" in other words. :-)


What is currently under work are the parts of me that judge others unjustly because I believe that is the element that is the biggest problem with the Body today.
If He sanctifies that part of me, because I asked for His help to do so, perhaps I can be of use to Him later on.Sounds like "unjust judging" is the alternative to love.


Now, if you give me testimony that supports the doctrine that you are supporting, we may get somewhere in fellowship, because I am willing to understand why you believe in the doctrine you support and how that helps you with your daily walk and relationship with God. And that's the problem; "testimony" is subjective, and I really want to bring-alive the writings of the First Century. Objective, not subjective.


I suppose having a motivation to teach others is what drives you, but I am not motivated in that same manner. If I were to imagine your house in pictures (that is the inside of your heart and mind) you would have a neat and orderly home, a restored historical building with modern comforts and material and in white trim and light colors. I picture what some might see as an overabundance of libraries of books, stacks of magazines with brilliant photographs with windows that offer a very good view of the ocean. Not as much "motivation to teach others", but rather motivation to correctly promote the teachings of Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, James, Peter, Jude, Paul, and by recount Jesus.


I do not believe in a passive relationship with God, and I never stated that I do not make choices, or am not responsible for the choices I make. I cannot control that you seem to have decided who I am and what I believe. What can anyone do with that but <sigh> ?Then we agree on the "active intimacy between believer and God that is salvation". I'm sorry that you have perceived I am "deciding who you are and what you believe". I'll try to improve communication. :-)


Listening to God and acting on His guidance is my part and my part does have domino effect when it is His will, and not my own.
He tells me to break up the ground of my heart often, and how do I do that? By seeking Him first. I don't know how to do this! He can and will help me if I ask him.

The ground of my heart was broken (prior to belief) I didn’t break it up myself!
People who were obedient to God, lead by Him to speak to me had part of the eventual ground breaking and revelation. So to sit back when speaking or acting upon what The Holy Spirit impresses upon me is disobedience. I am doing my own will rather than His. There might be different levels of this disobedience, but I believe this impacts me negatively and the loss of opportunity effects others negatively.
When David sinned with Bathsheba and killed her husband and hid it, it took who??
God speaking through one of His prophets for his eyes to be opened to his sin and the ground of his heart to be broken up by God’s Word and Spirit!And yet, David made the decision to repent. The child died, but because of his repentance David did not.


There really is no reason to throw the baby out with the bathwater but that is what happens when we think evil of each other instead of good and judgment becomes more important than understanding.
There isn’t anyone here who is greater except the one who is like a child---- Perhaps if you help me understand how I offended you. Often I speak "Scriptural truths" in general; I likely did not mean something personal.


If I see God's hand in everything good, including allowing (not controlling) the prodigal to come to the end of themselves, does that make me evil or does that make me less likely to take glory for myself?To me, the teaching of "Sovereign Predestined Salvation" is the most offensive in Christendom. I like what you said "allowing the Prodigal to come to his end" (not controlling) --- but still he had to "come to his senses and repent". He had to decide, and to return. No one decided it for him.


Prodigal wanted to party, so his flesh won, but he was honest. And that is what I believe the story is about-- being honest with God (his dad) more than anything else.
He did not want to serve him, but himself. So he did and found it to be a near death experience.
He learned through it all just how much God loved him. It was never about what he did, but his Dad's love for him. If God corrects those He loves, He knows that our own folly will inevitably lead back to the place of brokenness, desire and willingness to serve Him. God grants us His Wisdom, and if we listen to Him life will be blessed, if we don’t listen and do our own thing, we will fall. Condemnation is for those who do not believe God is big enough to forgive and help to rise above that fall.Well said. Except, "will inevitably lead back" --- Scripture teaches me returning is NOT inevitable. James5:19-20 very clearly says "IF he is led back". "If" is prominent in Romans11:23 also.

No "opinions" there, clear Scripture.


Self correction only happens because of God's Word and Spirit, therefore correction always Has him at the root.Agreed. He leads, we follow --- or choose not to. Romans2:4-5! Stubborn refusal to follow His "leading-to-correction" stores up wrath for OURSELVES!


When I didn't discuss scripture back with you --- because I decided to take a different road of communication with you, one that I hope brings together in a way that citing scripture back and forth cannot.All right. But you and I cannot each follow "personal conviction" --- for we are subject to Human fallibility, and that which diverges from Scripture must be tested.

"Do not believe every spirit, but TEST the spirits to see if they are of God..."


Thank you Gadgeteer,

If I am filled with The Spirit, then allow that part of me to speak to you, if it will, and not any of my knowledge that comes from the world, and the way it sees things. I know I took a long time to respond, but this morning I am in haste to do so. If God tells me to seek wisdom, then seeking wisdom is the correct response. How can I be wise when I am in haste? Just know I am in haste, and that My Father assigned me to be just a part in His Body, as He assigned every person a part. Some have greater responsibility and outward works in Him that might seem more important, while still others that are weak and poor have perhaps a greater faith-- Just as important, but behind the scenes-- Like a heart valve compared to a hand or a hypothalamus compared to an eye, all are just as beloved.And some are teachers, some are healers; some are prophesiers, some are encouragers. With overlap, but each of us has different gifts. :-)


I am not offended by concern- It is where the concern stems from concerns me.Perhaps even that is subject to perception. And perceptions can be inaccurate.


I have faith in Him to work out what needs to be worked out as I hear His voice when He calls and follow His lead, grateful for the opportunity to know Him.

His voice is in our prayers, in our hearts and in our spirits; and His voice is in the Scripture they wrote. If something my heart perceives conflicts what they wrote, I stand on what they wrote, for my heart can be misled.

Thus the value of thinking "there are absolutes in Scripture".

Thank you for the opportunity for quiet and kind discussion; may our words increase our fellowship, in spite of imperfect agreement. As you said, "now we see through a glass dimly, now we know in part" --- quoting Paul from 1Cor13. Our agreements will not be perfect, because WE are not perfect.

May God bless you and keep you, and know you are a blessing to me and others.

:-)

Gadgeteer
Nov 4th 2013, 09:19 PM
So at the end of creation week, Adam was deemed to be virtually perfect, in God's eyes. The same was said about satan. Yet both willfully rebelled against God. I'm curious how a once saved always saved viewpoint can reconcile these two examples that seem to contradict that viewpoint.Worse than that, Gene --- Paul says we are at the SAME risk as Adam and Eve were! 2Cor11:3!!!
:eek:


I guess it matters from which judgment seat we are sitting, God's or man's. God surely can say He knows a person was saved from even before they were made, but what has a man ultimately created? OSAS seems a bit dangerous, since after all we are just men, assuming we can look at this from God's POV. As men, in His image, we should also be able to reason, to know when presumptions borderline question begging. I think it's dangerous to talk about OSAS at all much less any potential new believer...it may cause them great distress wondering if they have any chance at all as being counted as heirs of Christ.

Depends on which OSAS view one addresses. "Antinomianism" (a form of Gnosticism), which does not view continuing sin as a problem. Or "Eternal Security", which views salvation as open to ALL but once "in" it simply is impossible to leave --- either one is too changed TO disbelieve, or God interferes to PREVENT leaving. Or "Sovereign Predestined Salvation", which proposes it's all God's choice either way.

All three views are really repeating what Eve was told in the Garden, "Don't worry; you won't really die." I agree that it promotes apathy.

Scripture is replete with warnings TO WORRY --- not to be afraid of losing salvation in spite of one's desires, but to abide in God with the kind of fear that is REVERENCE, that His power keeps us. I love how Paul worded it in 2Tim1:


"I know whom I have believed, and am confident that He is able to guard that which I have entrusted to Him until that day. Retain the standard of sound words (abide in the teaching!) ...guard, by the Holy Spirit who indwells us, the treasure (of eternal life!) that has been entrusted to you."

And that just about sums it up, doesn't it?

:-D

Gadgeteer
Nov 4th 2013, 09:32 PM
The O.P title states Faith is a gift from God, but the O.P. does not agree with that statement. Just wondering where you chimed in on it?
Faith is either from God or ourselves, right? *Unless there is another alternative.

That's it exactly. Those who view "faith as a gift from God", most always perceive that "heart-change" comes before belief. Belief/faith therefore being either a second gift (along with "heart-change", which is THOUGHT to be grace --- though no grace is extended to the UNPREDESTINED) --- or belief/faith is the irresistible consequence of that heart-change.

If "faith" is not gifted to us from God, [b]then spiritually-dead men CAN BELIEVE and can therefore receive God's grace.

Which does Scripture teach us?

Great post, Scooby.

Gadgeteer
Nov 4th 2013, 09:48 PM
Well, I am late to the party, so please forgive me. All is forgiven. Welcome here, this thread and the forums at large! :hug:


My understanding of faith is the word "believe".Agreed.


In order to understand faith and its applications, we must first understand what it means to have faith. Like Walls wrote in the very first page, Romans details for us that all men are given a certain measure of faith. This means that faith, the ability to believe, is not limited to just the saved.Actually, that wording fits better the concept of "Semitic View" (Anthropomorphism) --- it was a Jewish Literary device ascribing to GOD what men do themselves. See Exodus10:1, "God hardened Pharaoh's heart"; but two verses earlier (9:34) Pharaoh hardened his OWN heart. Just two ways of saying the same thing. It's identical in 2Cor4:3-4, where "the devil blinded their minds from salvation" --- satan really doesn't have that power, they closed their OWN eyes and ears against salvation even as Jesus said in Mat13:15. Jesus' words have to be true. Besides, turning-to-God (believing!) comes before "veil-over-heart-removed" in 2Cor3:16!

So Rom12:3 is just another way of saying "As much faith as each man has."


Paul is writing this to a group of believers in Rome. He s warning them to not become pompous, just as many in the churches have become, thinking that their ability to believe in God makes them special. He tells them that EVERY man is given a measure of faith.Well, I don't think Romans12:3 says that; but the principle is sound. John12:32 says Jesus draws ALL MEN to Himself --- conspicuously using "helkuo-draw/drag-forcibly". Have you ever read Acts17:26-31? Clearly God makes it possible for ALL MEN to seek and FIND Him (believe!), though He's not far from ANYONE; He commands all men everywhere to repent, having furnished proof to all men in the Resurrection. Deut30:11-20 (with connection with Rom10:6-10) also applies.


It is my belief that this statement negates the notion that people are only given faith when they seek God out; for without faith, no one can understand, or even acknowledge Him."Seeking", means they have to first believe. See Heb11:6, he who comes to God must believe God IS --- believe and seek are the same. And you're right, those WHO seek salvation, find it. Matt7:7 and 14 --- recognize "heurisko" find-by-SEEKING in verse 14.


The catch for me is that when Paul wrote the words "every man", he was not qualifying. That means that the Muslims, Buddhists, and every person on earth has faith. What they do with that faith is what the Lord will judge them on. Hence the constant references throughout the Bible claiming that every man will be judged based on their actions. There's even a verse that tells us that every thought is revealed and will be judged by Him.Romans1:19-20 tells us that even the Creation reveals the Creator --- all are without excuse.


Hebrews 4:12-13
12 For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. 13 Nothing in all creation is hidden from God’s sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account.Nice --- good quote. :-)


What I believe is that many people have hyper-religiousized the terminology in the Bible, augmenting words to suit the fake piousness that is so pervasive in our churches today. It produces a watering down effect that washes basic truths away and replaces them with man-made, watered-down, fruitless terms that keep people in the pews and Pastors with expensive cars and houses. I wonder if God likes the idea of preachers making and hording millions of dollars while the congregations they preach to are working two and three jobs just to pay their bills.

Hopefully that does not happen often. Worse, are those who "tickle itching ears" rather than rebuking church-goers to repentance.

Excellent post, Seeker.

:-)

Scooby_Snacks
Nov 5th 2013, 12:40 AM
That's it exactly. Those who view "faith as a gift from God", most always perceive that "heart-change" comes before belief. Belief/faith therefore being either a second gift (along with "heart-change", which is THOUGHT to be grace --- though no grace is extended to the UNPREDESTINED) --- or belief/faith is the irresistible consequence of that heart-change.

If "faith" is not gifted to us from God, [B]then spiritually-dead men CAN BELIEVE and can therefore receive God's grace.

Which does Scripture teach us?

Great post, Scooby.

I believe in common grace. It is apparent to me as the earth has not totally collapsed on itself yet and we have simple joys here available to us whether we believe in Jesus or not.

Are you a professor? You do not have to answer that! I am not one!

Gadgeteer
Nov 5th 2013, 01:21 AM
I believe in common grace. It is apparent to me as the earth has not totally collapsed on itself yet and we have simple joys here available to us whether we believe in Jesus or not.Clearly you're right. And that does seem to reflect the story of the "wheat and the tares" --- where tares (weeds, unsaved folk!) are allowed to grow in the same good soil as the wheat until the harvest.

I guess there are three views of "gifted faith"; one (as I perceive) that grace is the gift, and faith is fully our conscious decision to receive His grace. Two, that God gives the same faith to EVERYONE, as Seeker posted. Three, that there are "two kinds of grace" --- common grace to everyone, and exclusive saving-grace (and exclusive faith!) given to only a few (the rest are outta luck).

Remind me of which one you perceive, Scooby? Or are in in between a couple?

I see no way to separate "When we were dead in our sins God saved us (by grace have you been saved)", in Eph2:5, from "by grace have you been saved through faith" in Eph2:8. So "faith" had to have happened when we were dead, before we were saved. That fits perfectly with John20:31, where "have-life" (saved!) comes squarely after believing (faith).


Are you a professor? You do not have to answer that! I am not one!

No, but I PLAY one on TV!

http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/aetsch/cheeky-smiley-028.gif

Scooby_Snacks
Nov 5th 2013, 02:32 AM
Clearly you're right. And that does seem to reflect the story of the "wheat and the tares" --- where tares (weeds, unsaved folk!) are allowed to grow in the same good soil as the wheat until the harvest.

I guess there are three views of "gifted faith"; one (as I perceive) that grace is the gift, and faith is fully our conscious decision to receive His grace. Two, that God gives the same faith to EVERYONE, as Seeker posted. Three, that there are "two kinds of grace" --- common grace to everyone, and exclusive saving-grace (and exclusive faith!) given to only a few (the rest are outta luck).

Remind me of which one you perceive, Scooby? Or are in in between a couple?

I see no way to separate "When we were dead in our sins God saved us (by grace have you been saved)", in Eph2:5, from "by grace have you been saved through faith" in Eph2:8. So "faith" had to have happened when we were dead, before we were saved. That fits perfectly with John20:31, where "have-life" (saved!) comes squarely after believing (faith).



No, but I PLAY one on TV!

http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/aetsch/cheeky-smiley-028.gif

:hmm: Is it John Lithgow, David Duchovny, Tom Mason or somewhere in between. :dunno:

I enjoyed the seeker's post as well. I think I am beyond words right now. I don't have an absolute, just my own experience to go by, which I have no conclusive evidence is the same for all, in fact, it seems unlikely He works with us all in the same manner.

Gadgeteer
Nov 5th 2013, 05:12 AM
:hmm: Is it John Lithgow, David Duchovny, Tom Mason or somewhere in between. :dunno:Duchovny has been in some interesting films. I saw "Playing God", very interesting --- got canned from doctor-hood because of drug addiction, recruited by a local crime-lord who saw how good he was at saving a knife-victim (collapsed lung) in a bar. He thought life was complicated BEFORE.

But I really enjoyed "Return to Me", he started dating a waitress --- they really liked each other. Then she discovered the donor of her heart-transplant, was his wife who had died in a car-crash a year before. Seems some hearts are destined to stay with a person!


I enjoyed the seeker's post as well. I think I am beyond words right now. I don't have an absolute, just my own experience to go by, which I have no conclusive evidence is the same for all, in fact, it seems unlikely He works with us all in the same manner.

Your thoughts are always welcome, as are any suggestions you may have to help me speak with more consideration, that I won't anger you or others in the future. Though I've seen some who use "offense" as a debating technique (often in my experience very hard Calvinists who have in my opinion been abrasive before), I'm more than willing to temper words that I may better speak (type?) with respect. The intent, is to love brothers and sisters in Christ.

:-)

(PS --- "unlikely He works with us all in the same manner" --- I love God with all my heart soul and strength, as you do; He is worthy. I perceive part of His worthiness is because He is GOOD. So how could He NOT want every last person to be saved, rather than to die?! How can Ezk18:23 and 31-32 be negotiable? He doesn't want anyone to perish! "Exclusive-gifted faith" does not fit Ezekiel 18!)

Scooby_Snacks
Nov 5th 2013, 10:49 AM
Duchovny has been in some interesting films. I saw "Playing God", very interesting --- got canned from doctor-hood because of drug addiction, recruited by a local crime-lord who saw how good he was at saving a knife-victim (collapsed lung) in a bar. He thought life was complicated BEFORE.

But I really enjoyed "Return to Me", he started dating a waitress --- they really liked each other. Then she discovered the donor of her heart-transplant, was his wife who had died in a car-crash a year before. Seems some hearts are destined to stay with a person!

Perhaps I will look these up on Netflix.




Your thoughts are always welcome, as are any suggestions you may have to help me speak with more consideration, that I won't anger you or others in the future. Though I've seen some who use "offense" as a debating technique (often in my experience very hard Calvinists who have in my opinion been abrasive before), I'm more than willing to temper words that I may better speak (type?) with respect. The intent, is to love brothers and sisters in Christ.


Being angry is one thing being frustrated is another. I already have issues with anger and in no need of new reasons to be.
Even if I believe I have been misjudged by a person ( an honest hot spot for me) whether that is the case or not, I am still responsible for my own feelings and to forgive. No one can make me feel angry, that is my side of the fence.



:-)

(PS --- "unlikely He works with us all in the same manner" --- I love God with all my heart soul and strength, as you do; He is worthy. I perceive part of His worthiness is because He is GOOD. So how could He NOT want every last person to be saved, rather than to die?! How can Ezk18:23 and 31-32 be negotiable? He doesn't want anyone to perish! "Exclusive-gifted faith" does not fit Ezekiel 18!)

I do not believe every person will be saved. (for me that is heartbreaking/difficult) I have no idea who will be, although I hope to be pleasantly surprised rather than disappointed.

Gene Dale
Nov 5th 2013, 03:05 PM
Worse than that, Gene --- Paul says we are at the SAME risk as Adam and Eve were! 2Cor11:3!!!
:eek:



Depends on which OSAS view one addresses. "Antinomianism" (a form of Gnosticism), which does not view continuing sin as a problem. Or "Eternal Security", which views salvation as open to ALL but once "in" it simply is impossible to leave --- either one is too changed TO disbelieve, or God interferes to PREVENT leaving. Or "Sovereign Predestined Salvation", which proposes it's all God's choice either way.

All three views are really repeating what Eve was told in the Garden, "Don't worry; you won't really die." I agree that it promotes apathy.

Scripture is replete with warnings TO WORRY --- not to be afraid of losing salvation in spite of one's desires, but to abide in God with the kind of fear that is REVERENCE, that His power keeps us. I love how Paul worded it in 2Tim1:


"I know whom I have believed, and am confident that He is able to guard that which I have entrusted to Him until that day. Retain the standard of sound words (abide in the teaching!) ...guard, by the Holy Spirit who indwells us, the treasure (of eternal life!) that has been entrusted to you."

And that just about sums it up, doesn't it?

:-D


Your last quote reminded of yet another Paul quote. Concerning his experience on the road to Damascus, Paul point blank said, that he was not disobedient to Jesus' commission. Which implies what in the OSAS paradigm?

"O king Agrippa, i was not disobedient to the visions", first part of Acts 26, or thereabouts. Seems to me that even a road to Damascus experience comes with choices (contrary to the way most folks reference it), Paul could have disobeyed and fallen away, or he could have gone on (which he did), and become one of the most useful instruments that God has ever spoken through in the NT. It has always been about faith, even from the very beginning. Grace was given the moment Adam and Eve should have been put to death....the Intercessor provides grace (for man, not angel).

Gadgeteer
Nov 5th 2013, 06:41 PM
Perhaps I will look these up on Netflix."Return to Me" qualifies as a "chick flick". His friends set him up with a "blind date", a double-date in a restaurant; but his date was so brash and obnoxious he pretended to field an emergency call so he could leave. That's when he noticed the waitress --- I loved what the waitress did to the obnoxious girl!


Being angry is one thing being frustrated is another. I already have issues with anger and in no need of new reasons to be.
Even if I believe I have been misjudged by a person (an honest hot spot for me) whether that is the case or not, I am still responsible for my own feelings and to forgive. No one can make me feel angry, that is my side of the fence. Well --- write this down, and if I say something again that offends you, presume that I really like you, and cherish you as a fellow believer in Christ; and that I mean no offense. :-)


I do not believe every person will be saved. (for me that is heartbreaking/difficult) I have no idea who will be, although I hope to be pleasantly surprised rather than disappointed.

Heartbreakingly difficult --- I know that well. I wish I had a "magic wand" to wave over everyone I care for, so that they would change and join Jesus and us in eternity; there are supposed to be no tears in Heaven --- but how shall I tell them "good bye", at their judgment?

http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/traurig/sad-smiley-021.gif

Gadgeteer
Nov 5th 2013, 06:49 PM
Your last quote reminded of yet another Paul quote. Concerning his experience on the road to Damascus, Paul point blank said, that he was not disobedient to Jesus' commission. Which implies what in the OSAS paradigm?

"O king Agrippa, i was not disobedient to the visions", first part of Acts 26, or thereabouts. Seems to me that even a road to Damascus experience comes with choices (contrary to the way most folks reference it), Paul could have disobeyed and fallen away, or he could have gone on (which he did), and become one of the most useful instruments that God has ever spoken through in the NT. It has always been about faith, even from the very beginning. Grace was given the moment Adam and Eve should have been put to death....the Intercessor provides grace (for man, not angel).

Excellent post. Paul really thought he was serving God (though how he gets "offing people" as serving God I'll never understand) --- it was Jesus' appearance which shocked Paul into realizing he was opposing the very God he thought he had been serving!

Gene Dale
Nov 5th 2013, 07:21 PM
Excellent post. Paul really thought he was serving God (though how he gets "offing people" as serving God I'll never understand) --- it was Jesus' appearance which shocked Paul into realizing he was opposing the very God he thought he had been serving!

Well the Pharisees' version of the law, their legalism, was way far and beyond Mosaic Law. They missed the boat..they separated themselves by strict adherence to their law, instead of proclaiming God's law to the nations like they were supposed to be doing...... not even "leaving any crumbs for the dogs". They were the exact opposite of the same spectrum. Their fathers that were exiled to Babylon were on one end, and the Sanhedrin was on the other.

As someone mentioned up above, Jesus deals with different people, in different ways. He appears to us in a most sufficient way. To tell you the truth, im fortunate that i didnt get the "Road to Damascus" treatment, i cant say for sure that i would be willing, or obedient... I probably would at first, but a few years in jail or a beating or three, i'd probably be having second thoughts...

Gene Dale
Nov 6th 2013, 12:57 PM
The heart of flesh demands that God speak to the ears, but it is through the Spirit that He is confirmed while speaking to the soul.

Unbelief is real. It is a rejection of our place, the ambitious self seeker will not seek His gift of grace, he is given over, even though the Spirit was sufficient. Guilty. I cannot see how a person such as this, can be gifted faith and not receive what wages are due. What witness is there left to testify in favor of such a person? Who would pardon that blasphemy? The devil himself at least acknowledges the One he accuses.