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Low Class Begger
Oct 19th 2013, 05:33 AM
Is spanking kids a sin according to the bible?

TrustGzus
Oct 19th 2013, 05:48 AM
Many would appeal to a passage such as this to say the Bible supports spanking . . .


Proverbs 23:13–14 (NIV)

13*Do not withhold discipline from a child;
if you punish them with the rod, they will not die.
14*Punish them with the rod
and save them from death.

Low Class Begger
Oct 19th 2013, 05:56 AM
Many would appeal to a passage such as this to say the Bible supports spanking . . .

What about Proverbs 26:3?

"A whip for the horse, a bridle for the donkey, and a rod for the backs of fools!"

Is it a sin to whip the backs of fools and whip kids too?

EarlyCall
Oct 19th 2013, 10:13 AM
What about Proverbs 26:3?

"A whip for the horse, a bridle for the donkey, and a rod for the backs of fools!"

Is it a sin to whip the backs of fools and whip kids too?

Usually, if you don't spank them as little kids, they grow up to be fools making the rest of us wish you had spanked them as little kids.

Boo
Oct 19th 2013, 10:37 AM
A parent who will not chastise a child does not love that child. If you love your child and do not want the child to stray from what is right, then offer whatever correction will take effect:


Hebrews 12:11 ESV


For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.

Proverbs 23:13-15 ESV


Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you strike him with a rod, he will not die. If you strike him with the rod, you will save his soul from Sheol. My son, if your heart is wise, my heart too will be glad.

Revelation 3:19 ESV / 4 helpful votes


Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline, so be zealous and repent.

mailmandan
Oct 19th 2013, 12:06 PM
Proverbs 13:24 ESV - Whoever spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is diligent to discipline him.

I would say a lack of discipline when discipline is needed is sin.

Low Class Begger
Oct 19th 2013, 04:40 PM
A parent who will not chastise a child does not love that child. If you love your child and do not want the child to stray from what is right, then offer whatever correction will take effect:


Hebrews 12:11 ESV

Proverbs 23:13-15 ESV

Revelation 3:19 ESV / 4 helpful votes

Hebrews 12 is about giving encouragement to believers. Nowhere in this chapter is a command given to parents to spank their kids.

Where in Revelation 3 does it tell parents to spank their kids?

Also, nobody has answered my question about Proverbs 26:3

"A whip for the horse, a bridle for the donkey, and a rod for the backs of fools!"

If we can use proverbs to justify whipping kids, can we use proverbs to justify whipping fools too?

I'm not saying we shouldn't ever disciple kids, I'm talking about physical spanking discipline. Kids should definitely be told NO and should be told what is right or wrong.

TrustGzus
Oct 19th 2013, 05:06 PM
I think a verse like Proverbs 26:3 isn't meant for us to apply on an individual level. I can't just take a person I consider a "fool" and whip him with a rod. I think the idea may have been more for a government after giving a person a fair trial to use a method such as that for punishment.

I think EarlyCall's comment is a fair comment. I was spanked. Friends of mine that were spanked have generally speaking turned out to be responsible adults. Some of my friends were never spanked. Every single one of those friends got involved with drugs. One of them became a dealer and has been running state to state to avoid police. Now in saying that, I'm not saying either is universally granted. A spanked child could still end up rebellious. A kid who isn't spanked might have a good God-given conscience and stay out of trouble.

However, I think a general pattern can be spotted.

I don't know what a person who thinks spanking is wrong would do with multiple verses in Proverbs that speak of applying the rod to a misbehaving child. It's pretty arrogant for anyone to say they know better than Solomon. Looking at culture, comparing the kids of the 70's when I was growing up to what I see with my kids in schools today, no comparison. My generation was much more well behaved. But generally speaking, our parents stayed together. Our parents disciplined. Our parents were allowed to correct each other's kids if they saw someone else's child misbehaving. You could be guaranteed they would talk to your parents and then you'd get more discipline at home. Teachers could discipline more easily. My kids teachers are hesitant it seems to discipline.

My kid got in a scuffle at school. For added info, my kid was the victim and responded in kind. He said he retaliated because the school does nothing to protect him. The school handbook said an out of school suspension was warranted. The principal let them both off as a "learning experience." My kid has been bullied for years because of the school's lameness in dishing out punishment. My wife and I went into the office and told the principal he has the handbook to back him up --- use it! Both kids got an out of school suspension. Any homework they had could be made up. Any tests that day were a 0% and could not be made up.

We told the principle in this "zero tolerance" towards bullying atmosphere they have, since he doesn't discipline, our kid has been bullied for years. He's got the handbook that authorizes punishment. Use it so our kid doesn't have to retaliate like he did because our school isn't disciplining the bullies.

That example has nothing to do with spanking directly, but I wouldn't be surprised if these kids weren't spanked when younger. Our kids were spanked and every single teacher has told us how well behaved our kids are and how much they appreciate them being in their classes. I'm glad my mom spanked me. I didn't appreciate it at the time. I greatly appreciate it now. It created a healthy fear in me that kept me out of a lot of trouble that many of my friends got into.

Low Class Begger
Oct 19th 2013, 05:27 PM
I think a verse like Proverbs 26:3 isn't meant for us to apply on an individual level. I can't just take a person I consider a "fool" and whip him with a rod. I think the idea may have been more for a government after giving a person a fair trial to use a method such as that for punishment.




I don't think Proverbs 26:3 is for a government only, because he doesn't just talk about whipping fools if you look at the beginning.

"A whip for the horse, a bridle for the donkey..."

If Proverbs 26:3 was for people of the government only, then he would be saying whipping a horse and a bridle for the donkey would also be for people of the government as well.



I don't know what a person who thinks spanking is wrong would do with multiple verses in Proverbs that speak of applying the rod to a misbehaving child. It's pretty arrogant for anyone to say they know better than Solomon.

Jesus never hit anyone and was against using violence. Did Solomon know better than Jesus?

jayne
Oct 19th 2013, 09:55 PM
Jesus never hit anyone and was against using violence. Did Solomon know better than Jesus?

I see there are parts of the New Testament that you either haven’t read or don’t understand.

Yes, Jesus told us to love our neighbor in the same way that we love ourselves and that we should not murder in his quoting the Ten Commandments.

He also said that we were to “turn the other cheek” figuratively speaking in his Sermon on the Mount when trying to undo the religious leaders’ erroneous teaching that revenge and retribution were tolerated by God. And yes, Jesus told us that the peacemakers of the world would be blessed.

But Jesus also made a whip out of cords and cleared everyone and everything out of the Temple when people defiled it. He turned over tables in a righteous rage and justifiably so. And He is coming back as a warrior and it will be violent. Jesus wanted people to live in peace with one another, but knew that His coming would cause divisions - some people choosing Him and others choosing evil.

"Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. And a person's enemies will be those of his own household.

You spoke of hitting people. Striking people out of hatred is a sin.

Spanking your child on the rear out of love to correct his/her behavior or protect them from themselves is NOT a sin. It’s two different things. I was spanked as a child and I have spanked as an adult. It’s done in peace and is not a beating. It’s with the palm of my hand on the back of the legs or britches bottom.

Discipline primary includes setting the boundaries and making sure children understand and accept those boundaries. Discipline also includes correction when those boundaries are wantonly overstepped.

If a small child accidentally knocked his glass over and spilled the contents everywhere, that calls for having him or her assist you in cleaning (learning how) and telling him/her it’s ok, but to be careful with a glass.

If the same small child throws his/her glass at someone or on the floor in a tantrum, that calls for a spanking AND the cleaning.

Low Class Begger
Oct 19th 2013, 10:25 PM
But Jesus also made a whip out of cords and cleared everyone and everything out of the Temple when people defiled it. He turned over tables in a righteous rage and justifiably so. And He is coming back as a warrior and it will be violent. Jesus wanted people to live in peace with one another, but knew that His coming would cause divisions - some people choosing Him and others choosing evil.


I thought that Jesus made a whip to drive the animals out because it would be hard to do it by hand. Why would he hit the people with the whip when he's against physically hurting people?



"Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. And a person's enemies will be those of his own household.

You spoke of hitting people. Striking people out of hatred is a sin.


Do you think that Jesus was literally carrying around a sword?

Jesus is not talking about a family physically hitting each other there. He's saying that we should love God more than our family.



Spanking your child on the rear out of love to correct his/her behavior or protect them from themselves is NOT a sin. It’s two different things. I was spanked as a child and I have spanked as an adult. It’s done in peace and is not a beating. It’s with the palm of my hand on the back of the legs or britches bottom.


You guys keep saying this like it's impossible to raise a kid without spanking him, and you are not giving solid scripture to support spanking.

jayne
Oct 19th 2013, 10:42 PM
I thought that Jesus made a whip to drive the animals out because it would be hard to do it by hand. Why would he hit the people with the whip when he's against physically hurting people?

Where does it say that Jesus would not physically harm anyone if needs be?


Do you think that Jesus was literally carrying around a sword?

Jesus is not talking about a family physically hitting each other there. He's saying that we should love God more than our family.

The divisions caused by family members at war with each other over believing or not believing Christ are more painful than a sword. That's why he used the violent metaphor.


You guys keep saying this like it's impossible to raise a kid without spanking him, and you are not giving solid scripture to support spanking.

I never said it was impossible.

Yes, I spank and will in the future if a serious needs requires it. There are TONS of things we do for, with, and because of our children that the Bible NEVER mentions. Are you saying that you are opposed to spanking because the Bible doesn't mention it?

Low Class Begger
Oct 19th 2013, 11:13 PM
Where does it say that Jesus would not physically harm anyone if needs be?


Matthew 26:52 Then Jesus said to him, "Put your sword back into its place; for all who take the sword will perish by the sword.

John 8:59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

The bible says that we should follow Jesus example, and if Jesus didn't try to hurt the people that were going to physically harm him, why should we?



The divisions caused by family members at war with each other over believing or not believing Christ are more painful than a sword. That's why he used the violent metaphor.


But where does Jesus give the ok for hitting people?



I never said it was impossible.

Yes, I spank and will in the future if a serious needs requires it. There are TONS of things we do for, with, and because of our children that the Bible NEVER mentions. Are you saying that you are opposed to spanking because the Bible doesn't mention it?


I'm opposed to spanking because I don't have clear scripture that tells me that it's right to spank. If I'm following Jesus example, who never hit anyone, why should I spank my child?

jayne
Oct 19th 2013, 11:46 PM
Matthew 26:52 Then Jesus said to him, "Put your sword back into its place; for all who take the sword will perish by the sword.

John 8:59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

The bible says that we should follow Jesus example, and if Jesus didn't try to hurt the people that were going to physically harm him, why should we?



But where does Jesus give the ok for hitting people?



I'm opposed to spanking because I don't have clear scripture that tells me that it's right to spank. If I'm following Jesus example, who never hit anyone, why should I spank my child?


You are rolling hate, hitting, beating, abusing, spanking, and discipline all into one package. You are equating spanking with evil violence. And if that's your conviction, then live it - don't ever spank. None of here are going to change your mind.

It isn't my conviction nor belief that spanking is the same thing as hitting and person in rage and anger.

When Jesus ask Peter to put away his sword, he said that people who lived like that - lived - would perish that way. He wasn't trying to avoid being struck with a sword. For pity's sake, he was on his way to be being murdered and beaten unmercifully.

When he walked through the crowd, he was avoiding being killed .... it wasn't his time. Those two passage have NO bearing on the anti-spanking campaign. And it doesn't make Jesus a pacifist.

Live your life and raise your child as you see fit. But the rest who occasionally incorporate spanking are not abusing our children nor living in opposition to who Jesus was.

Low Class Begger
Oct 20th 2013, 12:15 AM
You are rolling hate, hitting, beating, abusing, spanking, and discipline all into one package. You are equating spanking with evil violence. And if that's your conviction, then live it - don't ever spank. None of here are going to change your mind.


All I'm asking is for someone to give me concrete scripture that says it's right to spank. If that happens, it can change my mind.



It isn't my conviction nor belief that spanking is the same thing as hitting and person in rage and anger.

When Jesus ask Peter to put away his sword, he said that people who lived like that - lived - would perish that way. He wasn't trying to avoid being struck with a sword. For pity's sake, he was on his way to be being murdered and beaten unmercifully.

When he walked through the crowd, he was avoiding being killed .... it wasn't his time. Those two passage have NO bearing on the anti-spanking campaign. And it doesn't make Jesus a pacifist.

It does have bearing because it shows that Jesus didn't physically harm anyone even when people were about to harm him or even if they did harm him. I just don't picture Jesus going around hitting people before his death and resurrection.



Live your life and raise your child as you see fit. But the rest who occasionally incorporate spanking are not abusing our children nor living in opposition to who Jesus was.


Why doesn't anyone give me solid scripture that supports spanking? Also, why do people bring up Solomon's Proverbs even when they contradict Jesus teachings, as if we should follow Solomon over Jesus?

ewq1938
Oct 20th 2013, 12:41 AM
Is spanking kids a sin according to the bible?


If there is bleeding then definitely a sin.

ewq1938
Oct 20th 2013, 12:44 AM
The bible says that we should follow Jesus example, and if Jesus didn't try to hurt the people that were going to physically harm him, why should we?

Actually Jesus knew how to make a whip from scratch and he did make one and whipped people inside the temple. Not only that but Jesus will kill people when he returns.

Low Class Begger
Oct 20th 2013, 01:01 AM
If there is bleeding then definitely a sin.


Is it only a sin if there's bleeding? How do you beat kids in a Godly manner?


Actually Jesus knew how to make a whip from scratch and he did make one and whipped people inside the temple.

Why in the world would he whip the people? Wouldn't they just hit him back and overpower him? That action just doesn't line up with what he taught.

I thought he drove the animals out with the whip, and since the money changers cared about their property, they followed their animals out of the temple as well.

But even if he did hit the people, does it mean that it's fine for us whip people?



Not only that but Jesus will kill people when he returns.


So, does that mean we should kill people as well?

ewq1938
Oct 20th 2013, 01:09 AM
Is it only a sin if there's bleeding? How do you beat kids in a Godly manner?

Beat? It would be called spanking not beating. You hit them on the rear with a hand or flat object, not too hard, but not too soft. Just enough to give a little bit of pain, but it's more for the shock and demonstration of authority.






Why in the world would he whip the people? Wouldn't they just hit him back and overpower him? That action just doesn't line up with what he taught.


Sure it does:


Joh 2:13 And the Jews' passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem,
Joh 2:14 And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting:
Joh 2:15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;
Joh 2:16 And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.
Joh 2:17 And his disciples remembered that it was written, The zeal of thine house hath eaten me up.
Joh 2:18 Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?
Joh 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
Joh 2:20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
Joh 2:21 But he spake of the temple of his body.







I thought he drove the animals out with the whip, and since the money changers cared about their property, they followed their animals out of the temple as well.

Nope.




But even if he did hit the people, does it mean that it's fine for us whip people?

When it's appropriate, yes.






So, does that mean we should kill people as well?

If we are part of the army that comes back with him.

Low Class Begger
Oct 20th 2013, 01:21 AM
Beat? It would be called spanking not beating. You hit them on the rear with a hand or flat object, not too hard, but not too soft. Just enough to give a little bit of pain, but it's more for the shock and demonstration of authority.

Joh 2:13 And the Jews' passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem,
Joh 2:14 And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting:
Joh 2:15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;
Joh 2:16 And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.
Joh 2:17 And his disciples remembered that it was written, The zeal of thine house hath eaten me up.
Joh 2:18 Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?
Joh 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
Joh 2:20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
Joh 2:21 But he spake of the temple of his body.


Are you saying that its fine to go into a church gift shop and start whipping people?

Also, are you saying that its ok to whip kids like Jesus "supposedly" whipped the money changers?

Wow, that just sound crazy to me, and I think your really stretching this passage too.

ewq1938
Oct 20th 2013, 01:27 AM
Are you saying that its fine to go into a church gift shop and start whipping people?

If they were thieves and such like were in the temple, Jesus felt it was ok.



Also, are you saying that its ok to whip kids like Jesus "supposedly" whipped the money changers?


No he whipped adults. You should SPANK children, already said that.




Wow, that just sound crazy to me, and I think your really stretching this passage too.

It doesn't matter what we "think" it's whether or not it is ok to spank children and yes it is if done properly and if it's deserved.

Low Class Begger
Oct 20th 2013, 01:52 AM
If they were thieves and such like were in the temple, Jesus felt it was ok.

Why would Jesus contradict all his teachings on violence by whipping people? Also, why would Paul contradict Jesus whipping money changers message in 2 Corinthians 10:3-5

"For though we walk in the flesh, we are not waging war according to the flesh. 4 For the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh but have divine power to destroy strongholds."

If Jesus really did hit the money changers, then John 2:13-15 could be used to justify all sorts of violence!



No he whipped adults. You should SPANK children, already said that.

And where does Jesus give the ok to spank kids?



It doesn't matter what we "think" it's whether or not it is ok to spank children and yes it is if done properly and if it's deserved.

Again, where does Jesus give anyone the command to spank kids?

ewq1938
Oct 20th 2013, 04:19 AM
Why would Jesus contradict all his teachings on violence by whipping people?

It's not a contradiction.



Also, why would Paul contradict Jesus whipping money changers message in 2 Corinthians 10:3-5

He doesn't.






If Jesus really did hit the money changers, then John 2:13-15 could be used to justify all sorts of violence!

Incorrect.





And where does Jesus give the ok to spank kids?

Others have already posted the scriptures about this. Don't ask me to post them when at least two others already have.

Low Class Begger
Oct 20th 2013, 05:27 AM
Why would Jesus contradict all his teachings on violence by whipping people?




It's not a contradiction.


Is teaching about not physically hitting people, then hitting someone not a contradiction?



Also, why would Paul contradict Jesus whipping money changers message in 2 Corinthians 10:3-5




He doesn't.


Is a whip, when used to hit someone, not a worldly weapon against the flesh?



"If Jesus really did hit the money changers, then John 2:13-15 could be used to justify all sorts of violence!"




Incorrect.


According to your theory of John 2:13-15, couldn't someone go into a church gift shop and start whipping them? Also, how do you know that the money changers couldn't have been kids? Even if they were just teenage kids?



And where does Jesus give the ok to spank kids?




Others have already posted the scriptures about this. Don't ask me to post them when at least two others already have.


Show me where they gave me scripture where JESUS said spanking was right. They've shown me that SOLOMON said it was right.

If you guys want to use Proverbs so much to justify hitting kids why not follow these scriptures too?

Proverbs 19:25 "Strike a scoffer, and the simple will learn prudence;
reprove a man of understanding, and he will gain knowledge"

Proverbs 10:13 "On the lips of him who has understanding, wisdom is found,
but a rod is for the back of him who lacks sense"

Do you guys condone the application of these scriptures in life as well? Is it right to hit scoffers and people who lack sense?

Who should we obey, Solomon, or Jesus?

TrustGzus
Oct 20th 2013, 08:41 AM
So Low Class Beggar, you don't believe Proverbs is the Word of God then, but just a bunch of fallible sayings by Solomon?

Boo
Oct 20th 2013, 09:16 AM
Low Class Beggar is not here to learn the answer to his question. He is here to tell the rest of us that we are wrong.

EarlyCall
Oct 20th 2013, 11:02 AM
Are you saying that its fine to go into a church gift shop and start whipping people?

Also, are you saying that its ok to whip kids like Jesus "supposedly" whipped the money changers?

Wow, that just sound crazy to me, and I think your really stretching this passage too.

First, spanking is not beating. You used that term in place of spanking, but they do not mean the same thing and are not interchangeable.

I don't see where it says Jesus used the whip on the people in the temple, so I think one must assume that He did if they they are to think so, but I don't think that is a safe assumption. I would assume He did not use the whip on any person but rather the animals, and I would assume that He did not hit the animals in any manner that would harm then or hurt them. I doubt very much that such was necessary in order to get the animals to move along.

If we keep in mind that all that Jesus did was right, then to hurt the animals, I think, would be wrong and therefore I do not believe He did. I have no doubt the animals took a lot less persuading to move out of the temple than did the Jews.

EarlyCall
Oct 20th 2013, 11:31 AM
Is it only a sin if there's bleeding? How do you beat kids in a Godly manner?



Why in the world would he whip the people? Wouldn't they just hit him back and overpower him? That action just doesn't line up with what he taught.

I thought he drove the animals out with the whip, and since the money changers cared about their property, they followed their animals out of the temple as well.

But even if he did hit the people, does it mean that it's fine for us whip people?



So, does that mean we should kill people as well?

Part of your problem in your making of an argument is that you change the words - like spanking to beating and then you leap to killing. Whether you realize it or not, you try to leap to extremes and attempt to make the words equal and by implication the intent - neither of which is correct.

So as an example, if you and I were arguing about speeding and you said it was safe and fine to go over the speed limit by twenty mph and I responded by saying, so you think road rage is fine? And how is that safe? Yea, that is what you are doing.

jayne
Oct 20th 2013, 12:04 PM
Low Class Beggar is not here to learn the answer to his question. He is here to tell the rest of us that we are wrong.

Unfortunately I figured that out after I took the bait. Shame on me - I usually catch that quicker.

LCB - once more - if you do not wish to spank, then don't. C'est la vie.

Low Class Begger
Oct 20th 2013, 04:37 PM
So Low Class Beggar, you don't believe Proverbs is the Word of God then, but just a bunch of fallible sayings by Solomon?

I believe that whole bible is given by God. The problem I have is when people use parts of Proverbs that go against the teachings of Jesus.

Like Proverbs 19:25, Proverbs 10:13, etc.


Low Class Beggar is not here to learn the answer to his question. He is here to tell the rest of us that we are wrong.

I am here to find answers. I did not come here to offend anyone and I apologize to anyone I've hurt or offended. Please forgive me!


First, spanking is not beating. You used that term in place of spanking, but they do not mean the same thing and are not interchangeable.

I don't see where it says Jesus used the whip on the people in the temple, so I think one must assume that He did if they they are to think so, but I don't think that is a safe assumption. I would assume He did not use the whip on any person but rather the animals, and I would assume that He did not hit the animals in any manner that would harm then or hurt them. I doubt very much that such was necessary in order to get the animals to move along.

If we keep in mind that all that Jesus did was right, then to hurt the animals, I think, would be wrong and therefore I do not believe He did. I have no doubt the animals took a lot less persuading to move out of the temple than did the Jews.

That's pretty much what I said earlier, but somehow people usually read that passage as Jesus hitting people with the whip. This is usually the one tiny event people use out of Jesus entire ministry and lifestyle to justify hitting people.



I thought he drove the animals out with the whip, and since the money changers cared about their property, they followed their animals out of the temple as well.


That theory matches with the rest of Jesus lifestyle and his teachings on peace. Do you guys know how loud it could have been in the temple with all the animals and marketplace activities going on? I think since Jesus drove it out, the temple was a lot quieter and peaceful.

Also, it shows how it wasn't just some sudden burst of rage, because of how Jesus took the time to make the whip. I think it was a planned and smooth move on the part of Jesus.


Part of your problem in your making of an argument is that you change the words - like spanking to beating and then you leap to killing. Whether you realize it or not, you try to leap to extremes and attempt to make the words equal and by implication the intent - neither of which is correct.

So as an example, if you and I were arguing about speeding and you said it was safe and fine to go over the speed limit by twenty mph and I responded by saying, so you think road rage is fine? And how is that safe? Yea, that is what you are doing.

I agree, and I apologize. I'll try not to refer to spanking as beating or anything else from now on.

I still don't see where Jesus said yes to spanking. Also, there are lots of countries that have even outlawed it!

Clearly there must be a way to raise a kid to be good without spanking.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporal_punishment_in_the_home#Where_corporal_pun ishment_in_the_home_is_outlawed

TrustGzus
Oct 20th 2013, 05:22 PM
I believe that whole bible is given by God. The problem I have is when people use parts of Proverbs that go against the teachings of Jesus.

Sorry, LCB, but you contradict yourself. Here's what should follow from what you said.

The whole Bible is given by God (your exact words).
Proverbs is in the Bible.
Proverbs is given by God.

If Proverbs is given by God and if Jesus is God (John 1:1, 14), then how can you say Proverbs goes against Jesus.

Jesus never even addresses the subject of disciplining a child in the gospels directly. I think he does indirectly. Jesus does affirm the writings of the OT to be the Word of God. If Jesus affirms the OT to be the Word of God, then Jesus would affirm the book of Proverbs. Therefore, Jesus would have no problem with spanking, done properly, as described by some of our members.

The Proverbs don't go against Jesus and Jesus doesn't go against the Proverbs. Proverbs and your particular misunderstanding of Jesus on these issues go against one another.

Furthermore, not only does Solomon say this kind of thing (in many of the Proverbs, not just once or twice), God speaks this way too. Look at 2 Samuel 7, particularly verse 14 . . .


2 Samuel 7:11–16 (NIV)
“*‘The LORD declares to you that the LORD himself will establish a house for you: 12*When your days are over and you rest with your ancestors, I will raise up your offspring to succeed you, your own flesh and blood, and I will establish his kingdom. 13*He is the one who will build a house for my Name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. 14*I will be his father, and he will be my son. When he does wrong, I will punish him with a rod wielded by men, with floggings inflicted by human hands. 15*But my love will never be taken away from him, as I took it away from Saul, whom I removed from before you. 16*Your house and your kingdom will endure forever before me; your throne will be established forever.’*”


So, even God himself speaks of using a rod to punish. Your argument isn't with anyone here. Your argument is with God, himself.

Low Class Begger
Oct 20th 2013, 06:19 PM
I say some proverbs verses go against Jesus because they clearly go against the example he set for us. Do you really think Jesus wants us to hit scoffers and people who lack sense???

Proverbs 19:25 "Strike a scoffer, and the simple will learn prudence;
reprove a man of understanding, and he will gain knowledge"

Proverbs 10:13 "On the lips of him who has understanding, wisdom is found,
but a rod is for the back of him who lacks sense"

According to you, Jesus wants us to practice everything in the bible, just because it's in the bible, even if it goes against the example he set on earth.

(Kjv) Exodus 21:17 is in the bible, should we do this as well?

"And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death"

Exodus is in the bible, and since Jesus (who is God) gave the bible, is it right to kill a kid who curses his parents?

Why would Jesus want us to practice something that goes against the example he set for us on earth?

What's the point of making topics if I'm just gonna get ridiculed?

Boo
Oct 20th 2013, 06:58 PM
I say some proverbs verses go against Jesus because they clearly go against the example he set for us. Do you really think Jesus wants us to hit scoffers and people who lack sense???

Proverbs 19:25 "Strike a scoffer, and the simple will learn prudence;
reprove a man of understanding, and he will gain knowledge"

Proverbs 10:13 "On the lips of him who has understanding, wisdom is found,
but a rod is for the back of him who lacks sense"

According to you, Jesus wants us to practice everything in the bible, just because it's in the bible, even if it goes against the example he set on earth.

(Kjv) Exodus 21:17 is in the bible, should we do this as well?

"And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death"

Exodus is in the bible, and since Jesus (who is God) gave the bible, is it right to kill a kid who curses his parents?

Why would Jesus want us to practice something that goes against the example he set for us on earth?

What's the point of making topics if I'm just gonna get ridiculed?

Because, you are not accepting anything people say as having any validity. Instead of trying to understand, you tell everyone how wrong they are. If you have a question, as it and thank them for the answer. If you fail to understand the answer and need clarification, rephrase your question. Keep that up until you have your answer.

If you make a statement as to something being true, then dispute it in your next post, you confuse the issue and make yourself impossible to understand. If everything in the Old Testament historically true? Do you accept it or not?

From what we have in our Bibles, Jesus never:

1. demonstrated how He would punish a misbehaving child

2. declared war on another country

3. served in a military unit

4. killed a man

5. got into a fist fight

6. smoked cigarettes

7. had a wife

8. had kids

9. played Polo

10, etc, etc, etc.

Since we were not told that Jesus did these, are all these things immoral and occasions of sin?

For those questions not answered in the New Testament or only answered briefly, we can find witnesses to the answer in the Old Testament. Since the Old Testament included the actions of Jesus before He came to Earth as a man, we can know that He and God the Father would do the things that are recorded in the Bible. Jesus would punish a child if had one and it misbehaved - even if it included spanking the child.

God the father, Jesus the son, and Holy Spirit are one. This is what God did:

Numbers 16:25-35


Then Moses rose and went to Dathan and Abiram, and the elders of Israel followed him. And he spoke to the congregation, saying, "Depart, please, from the tents of these wicked men, and touch nothing of theirs, lest you be swept away with all their sins." So they got away from the dwelling of Korah, Dathan, and Abiram. And Dathan and Abiram came out and stood at the door of their tents, together with their wives, their sons, and their little ones. And Moses said, "Hereby you shall know that the LORD has sent me to do all these works, and that it has not been of my own accord. If these men die as all men die, or if they are visited by the fate of all mankind, then the LORD has not sent me. But if the LORD creates something new, and the ground opens its mouth and swallows them up with all that belongs to them, and they go down alive into Sheol, then you shall know that these men have despised the LORD." And as soon as he had finished speaking all these words, the ground under them split apart. And the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them up, with their households and all the people who belonged to Korah and all their goods. So they and all that belonged to them went down alive into Sheol, and the earth closed over them, and they perished from the midst of the assembly. And all Israel who were around them fled at their cry, for they said, "Lest the earth swallow us up!" And fire came out from the LORD and consumed the 250 men offering the incense.

That is much worse than spanking.

Low Class Begger
Oct 20th 2013, 07:22 PM
Jesus didn't address every single problem in the world, yet we can still look at how he lived life to find the answers to those problems.

But According to your line of thinking, since Jesus never specifically told parents what to do if a kid curses them, we should go to the Old Testament.

(Kjv) Exodus 21:17

"And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death"

Is this something Jesus would want us to do?

moonglow
Oct 20th 2013, 08:10 PM
Forgive me for not reading every post on here on this topic. My allergy eyes are very bad today making it worse by reading too much but I wanted to share this research study:


Smacked children more successful later in life, study finds
Children who are smacked by their parents may grow up to be happier and more successful than those spared physical discipline, research suggests. (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/6926823/Smacked-children-more-successful-later-in-life-study-finds.html)

My sister's and I were all spanked growing up and put in time out, etc and we all turned out fine. None of us are violent or have ever been arrested, nor done drugs, etc. While I started out raising my son in the same way, due to the abuse he was suffering from his dad, even a swat appeared to him as a physical attack and he would completely panic. :( Now he didn't start out reacting that way..but like I said due to how his dad treated him he learned to fear anything like this so I had to stop any and all spanking or even a little swat and completely change how I raised him. He was also very, very strong willed. We had many battles in his early years. Now he is 17 and a good young man with a good head on his shoulders. He does not do drugs, nor is violent nor been in trouble with the law and has a bright future ahead. If parents don't get their kids under control when they are young, they will have huge problems with them when they become teenagers.

I cannot take credit for this though as I relied completely on the Lord's guidance as to how to raise my son. I do not take those OT verses literally. If I had time I could show you bible commentaries where they explain its not literal.. ..and FEW actually take them so literally that they are hitting their kids with rods! A rod is symbolic. It means discipline. The word is defined as teaching...rewards along with punishment. In Psalms 23 it says, Your rod and Your staff, they comfort me....

How is a rod comforting if its a literally rod?

If parents actually follow those verses and use a rod its a great way to have your kids taken from you and raised in foster homes. :rolleyes: And they should be taken away..its child abuse. Leaving any marks on your children is child abuse.

The point is yes we ARE to discipline our children. There is no question about that. I think I would have turned out just the same as I am now even if I hadn't been spanked. I was a very sensitive child...just a look and stern words would have been enough for me! :lol: Though I did do some pretty rotten things when I was a kid :rolleyes: just ask my sisters. So I am sure I deserved some of those spanking. The point is not to let children run wild with no instructions, no discipline!

God bless

moonglow
Oct 20th 2013, 08:20 PM
Jesus didn't address every single problem in the world, yet we can still look at how he lived life to find the answers to those problems.

But According to your line of thinking, since Jesus never specifically told parents what to do if a kid curses them, we should go to the Old Testament.

(Kjv) Exodus 21:17

"And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death"

Is this something Jesus would want us to do?

Does the Bible really say that parents should have their rebellious children stoned? (http://www.gotquestions.org/stone-rebellious-children.html)

If you read the rest of that it talks about the child who is apparently and adult child being a drunk! Its not talking about a little kid.

moonglow
Oct 20th 2013, 08:39 PM
So sorry...I forgot. Some don't know this. When my son was abused by his dad we were divorced and he would get Nate on visitation, there were no marks on him for me to prove the abuse. I do not have time to explain it now as I have to get to work. I did call CPS but they did nothing because ex would not let them in his house. :( I also was not a Christian then either.

(sorry with the editing problems I figure it was easier to do a new post rather then try to edit mine).

Vakeros
Oct 20th 2013, 08:43 PM
In Psalms 23 it says, Your rod and Your staff, they comfort me....
How is a rod comforting if its a literally rod?
Though I find myself in agreement with most of your post in principle as different children respond in different ways, I do want to answer this rhetorically asked question.
First, note that there are two objects mentioned - the rod and the staff. They have different purposes. The staff guides, but the rod is used to hit the sheep. Sheep can be seriously unruly at times, and sometimes when they don't respond to the Shepherd's voice, and don't follow His staff of guidance, then they need the rod of correction. This isn't punishment as such, which spanking usually is, but rather a warning hit on the side when the animal is determined to go the wrong way. I don't believe God punishes us so much as disciplines us, which can involve pain.
IOW God doesn't condone beating, but does support corrective measures which can include a form of violence.

For LCB, is there anywhere in the Bible that states that God is against spanking? Is there anywhere that states that Jesus never fought anyone? What about before His ministry when He was a young man? If you have already decided that to fight is a sin, then your answer is automatically that Jesus never fought. If however you accept that fighting isn't necessarily a sin, then it means Jesus could have fought. Your pre-assumed stance determines how you view what Jesus said or did. This is also clear in your understanding of the driving out of the money-changers. It is clear from John 2 that Jesus knew how to make a whip of cords and as someone already posted the animals would probably need less encouragement to leave than the sellers.
For your other question though, you make out that because Jesus did something we automatically can and should do the same thing. That is actually incorrect and poor understanding of Jesus as our example. What Jesus shows as our example is that He was righteous for His Father. He did what the Father told Him to do. We therefore should do the same, NOT making a whip from cords, but acting on the Father's instruction.
We mustn't divorce the God of the OT from the NT. It is the same God. He is a God of Love and Consuming Fire. He pours out His Love and His Wrath. People only like the love, but forget how strong His love is or His righteousness.

Nick
Oct 20th 2013, 11:00 PM
Is spanking kids a sin according to the bible?

It's already been quoted but Prov. 13:24 says it all. Physical discipline is a common theme in Proverbs (see e.g., 10:13; 17:10; 22:15; 23:13–24; 29:15). It is viewed as an important part of the correction and training of a child, to teach him to avoid wrong behavior, to embrace what is right, and to build godly character. Equally important, physical discipline is an expression of love for a child, while the one who spares the rod hates his son. Taking into account all of the teaching of Proverbs, physical discipline of a child must never be severe and must always be exercised in love. Cf. Heb. 12:5–11.

Too bad society has made it criminal to discipline your kid. Early childhood teaching requires both parental discipline, including corporal punishment.

EarlyCall
Oct 21st 2013, 02:03 AM
I believe that whole bible is given by God. The problem I have is when people use parts of Proverbs that go against the teachings of Jesus.

Like Proverbs 19:25, Proverbs 10:13, etc.



I am here to find answers. I did not come here to offend anyone and I apologize to anyone I've hurt or offended. Please forgive me!



That's pretty much what I said earlier, but somehow people usually read that passage as Jesus hitting people with the whip. This is usually the one tiny event people use out of Jesus entire ministry and lifestyle to justify hitting people.



That theory matches with the rest of Jesus lifestyle and his teachings on peace. Do you guys know how loud it could have been in the temple with all the animals and marketplace activities going on? I think since Jesus drove it out, the temple was a lot quieter and peaceful.

Also, it shows how it wasn't just some sudden burst of rage, because of how Jesus took the time to make the whip. I think it was a planned and smooth move on the part of Jesus.



I agree, and I apologize. I'll try not to refer to spanking as beating or anything else from now on.

I still don't see where Jesus said yes to spanking. Also, there are lots of countries that have even outlawed it!

Clearly there must be a way to raise a kid to be good without spanking.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporal_punishment_in_the_home#Where_corporal_pun ishment_in_the_home_is_outlawed

I think you noting Jesus taking the time to make the whip has merit and is worth considering.

But as far as Jesus not saying yes to spanking, where did He say no to it? You know, a lot of people think Jesus spoke against capital punishment too, but there are no verses where Jesus actually addresses the matter. Such leaps to conclusions are sometimes, I think, justified if they can be supported elsewhere in the word, but if not elsewhere in the word, then we cannot extrapolate from some scripture to come to conclusions on matters that are not directly addressed.

In other words, we do have grounds in the OT for spanking, but sine the matter is not directly addressed in the NT, then for it to have been done away with, it must be directly addressed, otherwise all that is left is to take some unrelated scripture and then through our own thinking somehow make a connection where none actually exists. This is dangerous and how many false notions come to be and then are preached as truth and then people come to believe it as gospel.

Low Class Begger
Oct 21st 2013, 06:30 AM
I've already addressed the posts on proverbs by asking if its good to hit people lacking sense.

Proverbs 10:13 "On the lips of him who has understanding, wisdom is found,
but a rod is for the back of him who lacks sense"

Jesus is the number one example we should be following, not solomon.

Matthew 12:42 KJV
"The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here"

@EarlyCall

Jesus didn't specifically say no to hitting people who lack sense either, so is it ok to do that?

Like I said earlier, for the problems that he doesn't specifically say no to, we can look to the example of Jesus life and get the answer.

Jesus never hit anyone, and taught about not hitting people so I think we should follow his example and do the same. His whole life is like a great sea of evidence for not hitting people, when I'm sure he could have taken anybody out without a sweat, but the fact that he chose not to is very telling. He even started his very life out without hurting people!

He could have severely hurt King Herod for wanting to kill kids, but he chose not to. Matthew 2

He could have hit back when he was struck, but he chose not to.
John 18:21-23

(You definitely lack sense when you hit the son of God, but it appears that Jesus didn't follow Solomon's wisdom here by not putting the rod to his back. Jesus encountered lots of people who lacked sense but I don't remember Jesus putting a rod to them)

He could have killed the Pharisees for wanting to destroy him, but he chose not to. Matthew 12:14-15

He could have beaten the Jews for wanting to hit him, but he chose not to. John 8:59

And so on.

Can someone please close this thread? because we're just going in circles now and I'm getting tired of saying the same thing.

1. "Proverbs says we should spank kids!"
2. Proverbs also says we should hit people who lack sense, is that right? Who's example is better to follow? Solomon's or Jesus?
3. "Jesus whipped the money changers so hitting people and spanking kids is ok!"
4. Did Jesus really whip the money changers or are you just reading more into the story? If he actually did whip em, is it right for us to go into a church store and whip people?
5. "Jesus didn't say anything about not spanking kids or not __________ (insert anything in the Old Testament thats not mentioned in the New Testament here) so we should go to the Old Testament and practice how they handled it!"
6. Jesus didn't specifically mention how to deal with witches either so let's see what the Old Testament says.
Exodus 22:18
"Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live"
Well, since the bible says to do it, should we do it?
7. Rinse and repeat, Go to step 1, Retrace the circle, and so on.

Mods or someone please close this thread. I think spanking is a sin, and I haven't gotten any congruent scripture or evidence to prove otherwise.

Boo
Oct 21st 2013, 09:35 AM
Thanks again for proving my point. You did not come here seeking information. You came to preach your own message.

I wish you well.

TrustGzus
Oct 21st 2013, 12:54 PM
I've already addressed the posts on proverbs by asking if its good to hit people lacking sense.

Proverbs 10:13 "On the lips of him who has understanding, wisdom is found,
but a rod is for the back of him who lacks sense"

Jesus is the number one example we should be following, not solomon.

Matthew 12:42 KJV
"The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here"

@EarlyCall

Jesus didn't specifically say no to hitting people who lack sense either, so is it ok to do that?

Like I said earlier, for the problems that he doesn't specifically say no to, we can look to the example of Jesus life and get the answer.

Jesus never hit anyone, and taught about not hitting people so I think we should follow his example and do the same. His whole life is like a great sea of evidence for not hitting people, when I'm sure he could have taken anybody out without a sweat, but the fact that he chose not to is very telling. He even started his very life out without hurting people!

He could have severely hurt King Herod for wanting to kill kids, but he chose not to. Matthew 2

He could have hit back when he was struck, but he chose not to.
John 18:21-23

(You definitely lack sense when you hit the son of God, but it appears that Jesus didn't follow Solomon's wisdom here by not putting the rod to his back. Jesus encountered lots of people who lacked sense but I don't remember Jesus putting a rod to them)

He could have killed the Pharisees for wanting to destroy him, but he chose not to. Matthew 12:14-15

He could have beaten the Jews for wanting to hit him, but he chose not to. John 8:59

And so on.

Can someone please close this thread? because we're just going in circles now and I'm getting tired of saying the same thing.

1. "Proverbs says we should spank kids!"
2. Proverbs also says we should hit people who lack sense, is that right? Who's example is better to follow? Solomon's or Jesus?
3. "Jesus whipped the money changers so hitting people and spanking kids is ok!"
4. Did Jesus really whip the money changers or are you just reading more into the story? If he actually did whip em, is it right for us to go into a church store and whip people?
5. "Jesus didn't say anything about not spanking kids or not __________ (insert anything in the Old Testament thats not mentioned in the New Testament here) so we should go to the Old Testament and practice how they handled it!"
6. Jesus didn't specifically mention how to deal with witches either so let's see what the Old Testament says.
Exodus 22:18
"Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live"
Well, since the bible says to do it, should we do it?
7. Rinse and repeat, Go to step 1, Retrace the circle, and so on.

Mods or someone please close this thread. I think spanking is a sin, and I haven't gotten any congruent scripture or evidence to prove otherwise.

The conclusion is the starting point. You think spanking is a sin. You start there so it's easy to end up there.

You say the entire Bible is from God, yet you pick and choose verses. If Proverbs is part of the Bible, and the entire Bible is from God, then Proverbs is from God. You admit it teaches spanking. Therefore, God teaches spanking. I brought up 2 Sam 7:14 where God clearly says he'll use the rod to discipline his son. You haven't responded to that.

You talk about the rod to the back of fools and automatically assume that your sociological position is inerrant and that Proverbs is errant. God declares in His Word that Solomon is the wisest man that ever lived. Instead of asking what you might be missing, what you might misunderstand, you set yourself above Solomon.

You admit that Jesus is silent on the issue, but you don't leave it in silence. You argue from silence what you think Jesus would have said. Jesus never commented on parenting methods. He did, however, state a very high view of the Scriptures. With such a high view of Scriptures, it's not likely he'd pick and choose verses he didn't like.

In dealing with witches in Exodus 22, this was God's directive to the theocracy of Israel. They lived under the Mosaic Covenant. Proverbs is wisdom literature. Different type of literature requires different application.

LCB, it seems God is trying to speak to you through a lot of people that disagree with you. This isn't ridiculing you. It's a discussion of the merits of your ideas and the ideas of others.

Any of us could be wrong. Explain how and why. Address 2 Sam 7:14. Address how it is that you determine which verses are true and which evidently are false. I don't know how you do this without setting yourself up as an authority over the Bible. However, I'm willing to hear a good argument.

Low Class Begger
Oct 21st 2013, 04:39 PM
I see we're back at step 5 again.

I never said anything in the bible is false. It's all true. This is not about the validity of the bible. This is about what verses should we be applying in our lives today.

2 Samuel 7:9 says that God destroyed all of David's enemies so should we destroy all our enemies too?

I keep asking, just because something's in the bible, why should we practice it when it goes against Jesus example? Jesus is a million+ times wiser than Solomon.

ChangedByHim
Oct 21st 2013, 05:02 PM
I never said anything in the bible is false. It's all true. This is not about the validity of the bible. This is about what verses should we be applying in our lives today.


So you are saying that during Solomon's day that corporal punishment was righteous but in today's world it is evil? I don't follow your thought process very well.

Low Class Begger
Oct 21st 2013, 05:34 PM
So you are saying that during Solomon's day that corporal punishment was righteous but in today's world it is evil? I don't follow your thought process very well.

Back to step 2.

Polygamy was ok during Solomon's day too. Is it evil in today's world? I'm not following your thought process much either.

Realist1981
Oct 21st 2013, 06:21 PM
I'm 32. Up until the early 90s teachers were allowed to "paddle" mis behaving kids. My 4th grade teacher used to paddle me like every other week. Everybody knew not to mess with Mrs Potter. Some kids need "The Rod" for chastisment every now and then.

Take the rod out of the teachers hand and take the rod away from the parents at home (Child protective services) and you have total anarchy. And then you have 8-10 year old little boys and girls walking around with "smart" phones like they are grown but that's a related yet different story and off topic a bit.


So I'd say NOT spanking your kids is a sin.

Chastising your kids isn't the same as beating them.

TrustGzus
Oct 21st 2013, 07:52 PM
Back to step 2.

Polygamy was ok during Solomon's day too. Is it evil in today's world? I'm not following your thought process much either.

Polygamy was not ok during Solomons's day. Solomon directly disobeyed Deuteronomy 17:17. Just because the Bible records what a man did doesn't mean God approved what the man did.

So, CBH's question still stands . . .


So you are saying that during Solomon's day that corporal punishment was righteous but in today's world it is evil?

You stated that you never said anything in the Bible is false. So, what are we left with? You agree Proverbs teaches spanking.

You pick and choose.
You don't like spanking, it's not for today.
We don't whip the backs of fools (perhaps our prisons would be more empty if we did), so it's not for today.

You don't like a verse (2 Sam 7:14) so you find a verse a few verses away to reject that verse (2 Sam 7:9).
Ok, let's apply it here. You don't like Proverbs 23:13-14 because that teaches spanking. I guess we should reject Proverbs 23:17, right?

Proverbs 23:17 (NASB95)

17* Do not let your heart envy sinners,
But live in the fear of the LORD always.

I could be wrong, but I can't fathom you'll agree with that.

Here's a syllogism that follows from two premises you've stated.

Proverbs teaches spanking. (You've agreed)
Spanking is a sin. (These are your words)
Therefore, Proverbs teaches us to sin.

How do you avoid the conclusion that Proverbs teaches us to sin?

One way would be to mess with the verses in Proverbs and claim they aren't teaching spanking. You haven't done this.
A second way is to reject the premise that "spanking is a sin." Yet you refuse to accept this.
A third way is to show that spanking is a dispensational or covenantal behavior that was not a sin in Solomon's day but is now. However, you haven't provided an argument to demonstrate Proverbs is a covenantal or dispensational book that isn't applicable today.

So, how do you avoid the conclusion that Proverbs teaches people to sin? What makes spanking a sin today, but not in Solomon's day. The polygamy argument didn't work because as Deut 17:17 states, polygamy was wrong. Solomon disobeyed and just because the Bible recorded his sinful act of polygamy doesn't mean God approved his sinful act of polygamy.

moonglow
Oct 21st 2013, 09:58 PM
Polygamy was not ok during Solomons's day. Solomon directly disobeyed Deuteronomy 17:17. Just because the Bible records what a man did doesn't mean God approved what the man did.

So, CBH's question still stands . . .



You stated that you never said anything in the Bible is false. So, what are we left with? You agree Proverbs teaches spanking.

You pick and choose.
You don't like spanking, it's not for today.
We don't whip the backs of fools (perhaps our prisons would be more empty if we did), so it's not for today.

You don't like a verse (2 Sam 7:14) so you find a verse a few verses away to reject that verse (2 Sam 7:9).
Ok, let's apply it here. You don't like Proverbs 23:13-14 because that teaches spanking. I guess we should reject Proverbs 23:17, right?

Proverbs 23:17 (NASB95)

17* Do not let your heart envy sinners,
But live in the fear of the LORD always.

I could be wrong, but I can't fathom you'll agree with that.

Here's a syllogism that follows from two premises you've stated.

Proverbs teaches spanking. (You've agreed)
Spanking is a sin. (These are your words)
Therefore, Proverbs teaches us to sin.

How do you avoid the conclusion that Proverbs teaches us to sin?

One way would be to mess with the verses in Proverbs and claim they aren't teaching spanking. You haven't done this.
A second way is to reject the premise that "spanking is a sin." Yet you refuse to accept this.
A third way is to show that spanking is a dispensational or covenantal behavior that was not a sin in Solomon's day but is now. However, you haven't provided an argument to demonstrate Proverbs is a covenantal or dispensational book that isn't applicable today.

So, how do you avoid the conclusion that Proverbs teaches people to sin? What makes spanking a sin today, but not in Solomon's day. The polygamy argument didn't work because as Deut 17:17 states, polygamy was wrong. Solomon disobeyed and just because the Bible recorded his sinful act of polygamy doesn't mean God approved his sinful act of polygamy.

Yea I am with you...I really think we have a troll on our hands. I noticed what they do is bombard the board with a million 'challenges' about the bible, rather then sincerely asking a question. The challenges never stay on topic (a common atheist tacit actually) never acknowledge when they are wrong and/or their question was actually answered. They just change the subject. Of course the members all swarm these kinds of threads...wish they wouldn't because its feeding the troll...there are already hundreds of Christian websites that answer these kinds of questions ...like Got a Question or Carm where a person can type in the questions on there and get the answers...so why come to a message board? To get a reaction...get everyone all upset, or even better turn on each other ...:rolleyes: They always pick a 'hot topic' too...one that gets the emotions going. Its just a game to them.

Low Class Begger
Oct 21st 2013, 10:29 PM
@TrustGzus


I see that we've made it back to step 1.


Ok Solomon said not to let your heart envy sinners and to live in fear of The Lord always
Proverbs 23:17


Does Jesus teachings and example conflict this scripture?


Matthew 22:36-38
[36] Master, which is the great commandment in the law? [37] Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. [38] This is the first and great commandment.


Nope, so why should I disagree with it?


Solomon said to attack scorners.


Proverbs 19:25
Smite a scorner, and the simple will beware: and reprove one that hath understanding, and he will understand knowledge.


What did Jesus say about this?


Matthew 5:44


But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you.


What should we do, attack them or do good to them?


I think you are the one who is picking and choosing what scripture and person to follow. I'm trying to stick with Jesus as my main example, but you are putting Solomon first sometimes, and Jesus first other times.


I'm gonna try to follow Jesus example of not hitting people, not Solomon's proverbs about hitting people.


Who should be the number one example in our lives?

Low Class Begger
Oct 21st 2013, 10:57 PM
Yea I am with you...I really think we have a troll on our hands. I noticed what they do is bombard the board with a million 'challenges' about the bible, rather then sincerely asking a question. The challenges never stay on topic (a common atheist tacit actually) never acknowledge when they are wrong and/or their question was actually answered. They just change the subject. Of course the members all swarm these kinds of threads...wish they wouldn't because its feeding the troll...there are already hundreds of Christian websites that answer these kinds of questions ...like Got a Question or Carm where a person can type in the questions on there and get the answers...so why come to a message board? To get a reaction...get everyone all upset, or even better turn on each other ...:rolleyes: They always pick a 'hot topic' too...one that gets the emotions going. Its just a game to them.

Wow, so now I'm a troll for trying for trying to understand God's word? Please stop ridiculing me.

What type message board is this?

ChangedByHim
Oct 21st 2013, 11:12 PM
Wow, so now I'm a troll for trying for trying to understand God's word? Please stop ridiculing me.

What type message board is this?

Your behavior is trollish. Do you know what a forum troll is? As a new member it's up to you to create your own first impression. Through 19 posts, it's looking trollish. Perhaps you will prove otherwise.

Jade99
Oct 22nd 2013, 02:50 PM
Nope spanking is not a sin, but I think that spanking in an abusive way is.

My mom spanked me and my sister when we did something wrong (which was often, lol) and I'm glad she did, because it showed that she loved us enough to discipline us when we were disrespectful.

I know my cousin was in and out of jail since her teens and I didn't even realize until my aunt told me that, she never spanked my cousin, because she thought it was wrong. As a result, I think my cousin didn't think that her parents cared enough to disclipined her; so the law had to.

I mean everyone has their opinion on the matter, but when my mom yelled out belt or threaten to knock me into the next continent, eventually I learned that I needed to get my act together. I have mad respect for my mom. My dad, may he RIP, only tried to spank me when I put bread in this 1980s VCR and when I said my first cuss word in Kindergarten. Other than that, I could smoke weed in my room, he didn't care.

Jade99
Oct 22nd 2013, 02:53 PM
Yea I am with you...I really think we have a troll on our hands. I noticed what they do is bombard the board with a million 'challenges' about the bible, rather then sincerely asking a question. The challenges never stay on topic (a common atheist tacit actually) never acknowledge when they are wrong and/or their question was actually answered. They just change the subject. Of course the members all swarm these kinds of threads...wish they wouldn't because its feeding the troll...there are already hundreds of Christian websites that answer these kinds of questions ...like Got a Question or Carm where a person can type in the questions on there and get the answers...so why come to a message board? To get a reaction...get everyone all upset, or even better turn on each other ...:rolleyes: They always pick a 'hot topic' too...one that gets the emotions going. Its just a game to them.

I've been thinking about this alot with these threads lately. I'll usually just answer the question for funzies, but leave them hanging when they get to "how can I put this nicely" stupid. And that's one thing I cannot argue with. (not calling you stupid OP, just saying in general..:))

Jade99
Oct 22nd 2013, 02:55 PM
I'm 32. Up until the early 90s teachers were allowed to "paddle" mis behaving kids. My 4th grade teacher used to paddle me like every other week. Everybody knew not to mess with Mrs Potter. Some kids need "The Rod" for chastisment every now and then.

Take the rod out of the teachers hand and take the rod away from the parents at home (Child protective services) and you have total anarchy. And then you have 8-10 year old little boys and girls walking around with "smart" phones like they are grown but that's a related yet different story and off topic a bit.


So I'd say NOT spanking your kids is a sin.

Chastising your kids isn't the same as beating them.

Chile, my first grade teacher got me everyday. It got so bad that the kids would tell on me on purpose to get a spanking in front of them. My mom gave most of my teachers permission from preschool til 2nd grade.

After 2nd grade, I became more introverted ironically.

moonglow
Oct 22nd 2013, 07:22 PM
Wow, so now I'm a troll for trying for trying to understand God's word? Please stop ridiculing me.

What type message board is this?

You are ridiculing us and the bible. This is not Christ like behavior. You are not sincerely and humbling asking questions but challenging and trying to refute scriptures. :/ Most believers believe IN the bible and believe its the Word of God and have enough respect for it to not try to undo it. There is a huge, huge difference in doing that and a person sincerely asking bible questions. You are trying to justify your beliefs by using popular social mores on this topic of spanking instead of trying to understand what scripture actually says on the topic. Some of us have disagree with that those scriptures actually mean spanking...like myself. But I don't attack those scriptures in the way you have. I think its clear that a child has to be disciplined in some way whether its spanking or something else. This is a message board that doesn't like our beliefs, our bible attacked. That is what kind of message board it is. And no matter how much we go around and around on here on certain topics and disagree, we all have one thing in common and that is our love for our Savior. We will stand up for each other and hold what is true out there against any one that has other ideas.

keck553
Oct 22nd 2013, 11:19 PM
Back to step 2.

Polygamy was ok during Solomon's day too. Is it evil in today's world? I'm not following your thought process much either.

Did Solomon write that polygamy was okay in Proverbs? And it wasn't "ok." Solomon transgressed the Law of Moses by taking on wives plural.

Your comparison is invalid.

Low Class Begger
Oct 23rd 2013, 01:24 AM
You are ridiculing us and the bible. This is not Christ like behavior. You are not sincerely and humbling asking questions but challenging and trying to refute scriptures. :/ Most believers believe IN the bible and believe its the Word of God and have enough respect for it to not try to undo it. There is a huge, huge difference in doing that and a person sincerely asking bible questions. You are trying to justify your beliefs by using popular social mores on this topic of spanking instead of trying to understand what scripture actually says on the topic. Some of us have disagree with that those scriptures actually mean spanking...like myself. But I don't attack those scriptures in the way you have. I think its clear that a child has to be disciplined in some way whether its spanking or something else. This is a message board that doesn't like our beliefs, our bible attacked. That is what kind of message board it is. And no matter how much we go around and around on here on certain topics and disagree, we all have one thing in common and that is our love for our Savior. We will stand up for each other and hold what is true out there against any one that has other ideas.

You guys call me a troll and then say that I'M, the one thats doing the ridiculing?

Wow...


Did Solomon write that polygamy was okay in Proverbs? And it wasn't "ok." Solomon transgressed the Law of Moses by taking on wives plural.

Your comparison is invalid.

He didn't say it was ok, but he still had many wives, and people keep making it seem like we should follow after him as if he's somehow a better example than Jesus.

The point I was trying to make is why should we follow everything Solomon said in proverbs when some go against the teachings of Jesus and the example he gave us?

See Proverbs 10:13, Is it right to go around hitting people who lack sense?

keck553
Oct 23rd 2013, 02:32 AM
You guys call me a troll and then say that I'M, the one thats doing the ridiculing?

Wow...



He didn't say it was ok, but he still had many wives, and people keep making it seem like we should follow after him as if he's somehow a better example than Jesus.

The point I was trying to make is why should we follow everything Solomon said in proverbs when some go against the teachings of Jesus and the example he gave us?

See Proverbs 10:13, Is it right to go around hitting people who lack sense?

First off, you are mistranslating the portions you cite from Proverbs terribly. Proverbs lines up absolutely perfectly with Jesus. He is God. God does not change. Really now, has someone told you to "follow Solomon, the man?" Truthfully?

Secondly, Who do you think inspired Proverbs?


Something that really helps me - I pray to God for a clean heart and a right attitude before reading Scripture.

Low Class Begger
Oct 23rd 2013, 03:30 AM
First off, you are mistranslating the portions you cite from Proverbs terribly. Proverbs lines up absolutely perfectly with Jesus. He is God. God does not change. Really now, has someone told you to "follow Solomon, the man?" Truthfully?

Secondly, Who do you think inspired Proverbs?


Something that really helps me - I pray to God for a clean heart and a right attitude before reading Scripture.

step 1

What am I mistranslating?

I'm just stating what the bible says.

You guys are telling me to follow Solomon by telling me its right to spank kids.

Solomon

Proverbs 19:25
Smite a scorner, and the simple will beware: and reprove one that hath understanding, and he will understand knowledge.

Jesus

Matthew 5:44
But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you

How do these line up with each other?

Can I attack scorners AND do good to them?

jayne
Oct 23rd 2013, 04:20 AM
step 1

What am I mistranslating?

I'm just stating what the bible says.

You are stating without understanding or discernment.




Solomon

Proverbs 19:25
Smite a scorner, and the simple will beware: and reprove one that hath understanding, and he will understand knowledge.


This verse is about using discipline or justice or a punishment as a deterrent for others. It says two things.

When someone is behaving in an evil or highly inappropriate manner, they need to be punished so that others who are either naive or immature or weren't raised any better can learn HOW to behave. When a wise person is behaving inappropriately and needs redirection, he, too, should be punished and because he is wise, he will learn

This could pertain to spanking a child, docking an adult's pay, putting someone on leave without pay, taking away a teenager's privileges, ..... etc.

King Solomon is talking about someone or some entity that is in authority who can punish wrongdoers. Police, judges, parents, .....




Jesus

Matthew 5:44
But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you

How do these line up with each other?

How do they line up with each other? They don't. These two verse aren't talking about the same thing. King Solomon is talking about punishment as a learning tool and a deterrent - such as judge putting a child molester in jail.

Jesus is talking about when an enemy brings injustice upon someone personally. Jesus isn't speaking about the police or legal system or parents. He is talking about the individual who needs to forgive.

For example: If a man breaks into the home of a family and steals their valuables, then according to King Solomon, he must punished and others who may be considering a life of crime will learn from that. Jesus, other the other hand, is talking about the family - who has NO authority to put the man in jail, but has the obligation to forgive him.

You are comparing apples and oranges.


Can I attack scorners AND do good to them?

Why would you attack them? King Solomon didn't say anything about attacking them.

Low Class Begger
Oct 23rd 2013, 07:00 AM
step 2

King Solomon DID say to attack scorners, and I wouldn't do it because I'm trying to follow Jesus example.

Proverbs 19:25 "Smite a scorner, and the simple will beware: and reprove one that hath understanding, and he will understand knowledge"

Smite: to strike sharply or heavily especially with the hand or an implement held in the hand

Smiting is definitely an attack in my opinion.

But you're missing my point.

Jesus is the ultimate authority that can punish any wrongdoer, and he met lots of scorners. Yet he didn't hit any of them. He could have punished, hit, or killed them all, but he chose not to.

Matthew 28:18
And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me

If he's the number 1 authority, that managed to have people obey and listen to him without having to use physical force on them, then why shouldn't we as parents do the same with our kids?

Is Solomon's take on authority better than Jesus example of authority?

Ta-An
Oct 23rd 2013, 08:15 AM
Is spanking kids a sin according to the bible?
In our country it is illegal to hit a child...

Nick
Oct 23rd 2013, 08:25 AM
In our country it is illegal to hit a child...

I don't believe a spanking on the bottom with your bare hand is illegal.

Boo
Oct 23rd 2013, 09:46 AM
In our country it is illegal to hit a child...

This same country that is desperate for peace? Do they define "spanking" the same way that they define "hitting?"

Ta-An
Oct 23rd 2013, 10:05 AM
This same country that is desperate for peace? Do they define "spanking" the same way that they define "hitting?"
yes.....
A child has the right to lay a charge against his parents for a hiding... all they need to do is to pick up the phone and dial the "child-line" and the parent can land in jail... it however does not stop physical abuse!!


The Sunday Times reported that, under the draft law, parents would be charged with assault if, at home, they used a flat hand on child's bottom or enacted other forms of corporal punishment. - Sapa

http://www.crin.org/resources/infodetail.asp?id=31527

jayne
Oct 23rd 2013, 01:04 PM
King Solomon DID say to attack scorners, and I wouldn't do it because I'm trying to follow Jesus example.

No, he didn’t. You can keep saying it over and over, but he did not. The Hebrew word, smite, is the word נָכָה – and yes, it does mean to strike, but among its other meanings is to punish, chastise, and send judgment upon. You need a good Hebrew lexicon.


Jesus is the ultimate authority that can punish any wrongdoer, and he met lots of scorners. Yet he didn't hit any of them. He could have punished, hit, or killed them all, but he chose not to.

Matthew 28:18
And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

Wow, you really are just cherry-picking verses right and left, aren’t you.

Yes, Jesus said that all authority was given to him. In heaven and on earth. Guess when He said that. AFTER his resurrection and just moments before He ascended into heaven, leaving this earth. While Jesus was on this earth as a man – according to His own words, His authority included healing the sick, delivering from demons, raising the dead, teaching, and forgiving sins. (Matthew 7, Mark 1, Luke 5, Luke 9…)

He did/does have authority to execute judgment, but NOT CIVIL human judgment in an earthly legal system. Jesus was not a Roman. The Romans robbed many cultures of pursuing their own civil judgments. The whole reason why the Jews had to take Jesus to Pilate for Him to be crucified was that under Roman law, Jews could not carry out their own practices of judgments – not stoning, not crucifying, not anything. That's one of the reasons why the religious leaders tried to trick Jesus into stoning the woman caught in adultery. If He did, they could have turned Him in to Roman government. Jesus was a radical and turned the world upside down, but one thing He never did - He never broke the law - neither Jewish or Roman. Not even when He healed on the Sabbath.

Jesus Christ's authority to execute judgment is future tense judgment at the end of times. Jesus said so Himself in John 5:26-28


“For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth; those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me."


Jesus’ authority on this earth did not include being a civil magistrate (passing civil/criminal judgment) or being a soldier/executioner (doling out criminal punishments). This civil/criminal authority is what Solomon was referencing.

You have a nominal understanding of Jesus' authority here.



If he's the number 1 authority, that managed to have people obey and listen to him without having to use physical force on them, then why shouldn't we as parents do the same with our kids?

Go back and read Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John and see the countless thousands of people who did NOT listen to Jesus nor obey Him. Look around today at the countless millions of people who scorn Him bitterly.

Jesus wasn’t here to “manage” people. He wasn’t here to “force” them to listen to Him. If I am trying to convince someone to understand the Bible and to come to love God, physical force is not a tool. Teaching someone to understand spiritual matters does not come about by force. Jesus never had a need to punch anyone in the face get their attention. But He will garner everyone's attention at the end and it will be bloody and violent.

Teaching a child who has run out into the street after being repeatedly told not to do sometimes requires physical restraint or a smack on the bottom or back of the legs. Managing a prisoner who is trying to escape requires physical force. Dealing with a child who flips off his teacher and says “f… you” sometimes requires corporal punishment.

Again, you are comparing apples and oranges.



Is Solomon's take on authority better than Jesus example of authority?

King Solomon’s discussion of civil/moral authority is not even in the same ballpark as Jesus’ examples of Godly authority. It's two different authorities with two different purposes.

Once more, you have compared apples and oranges. But I think you know that.


But you're missing my point.

Trust me on this. Not a single person who has read this thread has missed your point. You came here 4 days ago as a new member and introduced a topic that you already had your own answer for and didn’t want anyone to change your mind on. You haven’t received anything from anyone – and you continue in 22 posts on the same thread contradicting everyone.

We understand the point you are trying to make. You want to drive home your opinion that the Bible contradicts itself. You are merely using the topic of spanking to do so.

Ergo, the troll accusation. You do see that, don’t you? Can you not see our POV on this? Can you not see your trollish characteristics here? It would be quite simple to prove us otherwise. Just let this thread go and use means other than spanking to discipline your child. Then, go and check out some other threads and get involved.

If you choose not to spank your child, then don't. It's none of our business, anyway. But to say that you want to model your parental authority after Jesus Christ's authority and then show a lack of understanding of His authority shows that this thread is going nowhere.

Jade99
Oct 23rd 2013, 07:47 PM
yes.....
A child has the right to lay a charge against his parents for a hiding... all they need to do is to pick up the phone and dial the "child-line" and the parent can land in jail... it however does not stop physical abuse!!



http://www.crin.org/resources/infodetail.asp?id=31527

Oh wow!! I didn't realize that some countries were actually against that.

Lol, I remember at school they talked on child abuse and I was getting a whipping almost every night, because my teachers would tell my mom through my grandpa what I did that was wrong that day. (which was a lot) and I boldly went to my mom and said, "Ha ha you can't beat me. I can call the police." and my mom said "Sure go ahead, but when I get out I"m still going to get ya." I took my spanking like the mischevious 5 year old that I was. :D

Low Class Begger
Oct 23rd 2013, 08:11 PM
@jayne

Step 1.

Solomon's definitely talking about physically hitting people when he uses the word smite in proverbs 19:25. Can't hitting someone be considered a form of punishment?

Also, where do you see Solomon referring to only police officers, civil authorities, etc. in Proverbs 19:25?

And if it does, is it right for police officers to go around hitting scorners?

What about proverbs 26:3 and proverbs 10:13?

Proverbs 26:3
A whip for the horse, a bridle for the donkey, and a rod for the back of fools.

Proverbs 10:13
On the lips of him who has understanding, wisdom is found, but a rod is for the back of him who lacks sense.

Is it right for the police to go around whipping fools and people who lack sense?

Jesus left us an example that included not having to hit people. Why shouldn't we follow it?

grams
Oct 23rd 2013, 08:55 PM
Well, if you start out with the children at a young age, talking is good !

If you explain to them what is going on and what will happen if they keep doing as you do not want them to.

But ! You have to follow up ! or it wont work ..................

Low Class Begger
Oct 23rd 2013, 10:24 PM
Proverbs lines up absolutely perfectly with Jesus.


Step 2

Jesus actually broke one of Solomon's proverbs.

Solomon.

Proverbs 23:9
"Don't speak to a fool, for he will despise the insight of your words."

Jesus.

Luke 11:40

"Fools! Didn't He who made the outside make the inside too?"

Jesus spoke to fools when Solomon said don't do it.

Is it right to speak to fools?

Who do I follow Solomon or Jesus?

jayne
Oct 24th 2013, 02:34 AM
Jesus actually broke one of Solomon's proverbs. Jesus spoke to fools when Solomon said don't do it.


No, He didn't "break" anything.


Solomon. Proverbs 23:9
"Don't speak to a fool, for he will despise the insight of your words."

Jesus. Luke 11:40 "Fools! Didn't He who made the outside make the inside too?"

Again, you’ve not gotten the full grasp of the Bible context.

King Solomon said that there was a time to address a fool AND a time to know when to walk away and ignore him because too much of a fool to listen.


Proverbs 23:9 “Do not speak to a fool, for he will scorn the wisdom of your words.”
Proverbs 26:4-5 “Do not answer a fool according to his folly, or you will be like him yourself. Answer a fool according to his folly, or he will be wise in his own eyes.”


One has to be wary in the answer he gives a fool. Solomon warns against speaking to a fool, but states that if one has to, to be prudent and do so with the intent to squelch his foolishness.

Jesus violated no statute.


Who do I follow Solomon or Jesus?

There should be no problem in answering this question as Solomon and Jesus do not contradict each other in any way.

Low Class Begger
Oct 24th 2013, 03:09 AM
No, He didn't "break" anything.



Again, you’ve not gotten the full grasp of the Bible context.

King Solomon said that there was a time to address a fool AND a time to know when to walk away and ignore him because too much of a fool to listen.


Proverbs 23:9 “Do not speak to a fool, for he will scorn the wisdom of your words.”
Proverbs 26:4-5 “Do not answer a fool according to his folly, or you will be like him yourself. Answer a fool according to his folly, or he will be wise in his own eyes.”


One has to be wary in the answer he gives a fool. Solomon warns against speaking to a fool, but states that if one has to, to be prudent and do so with the intent to squelch his foolishness.

Jesus violated no statute.



There should be no problem in answering this question as Solomon and Jesus do not contradict each other in any way.

Step 2

So, is it right to answer a fool AND
hit his back with a rod?

Proverbs 26:3 A whip for the horse, a bridle for the ass, and a rod for the fool's back.

Is it ok to hit them if I don't answer them, or should I do it after I answer them?

If there's no contradiction between Jesus and Solomon, why didn't Jesus get a rod and hit a fools back?

jayne
Oct 24th 2013, 11:03 AM
So, is it right to answer a fool AND
hit his back with a rod?

Proverbs 26:3 A whip for the horse, a bridle for the ass, and a rod for the fool's back.

Is it ok to hit them if I don't answer them, or should I do it after I answer them?

If there's no contradiction between Jesus and Solomon, why didn't Jesus get a rod and hit a fools back?

Do you understand what a proverb is, LCB? It isn't a commandment. It's saying that has truth and merit and usually gives one pause to think about their actions. You are trying to say that because Jesus didn't robotically "obey" Solomon that the Bible is not valid. You are - on purpose - forcing a square peg into a round hole.

Well, you proved the point that you weren't here to discuss children and spanking. We knew that several pages ago. You know something LCB. It's really burdensome talking to someone on the internet when they aren't truthful with you know it and they know it, but they won't admit it.

You would get much farther if you would just straight out say that you are only here "prove" that the Bible contradicts itself. Others have done it and they have talked to us - with debate, yes, but with honest and integrity - in the appropriate forum.

We don't mind at all talking to scoffers. Just be intellectually honest with us. Some of the most honest discussions I've had on the internet have been with scoffers.

ChangedByHim
Oct 24th 2013, 12:11 PM
Well, you proved the point that you weren't here to discuss children and spanking. We knew that several pages ago. You know something LCB. It's really burdensome talking to someone on the internet when they aren't truthful with you know it and they know it, but they won't admit it.



Yes and at that point it becomes a matter of "feeding the trolls."

Low Class Begger
Oct 24th 2013, 06:19 PM
Please stop with the insults and ridicule. I'm honestly trying to get answers here while you guys keep mocking me, and you call ME the scoffer or troll?



Do you understand what a proverb is, LCB? It isn't a commandment.


Exactly. They are wise sayings that don't have to be followed, and if someone does or doesn't follow them, it doesn't mean they will always get the predicted outcome.

Proverbs 16:7 When a man's ways please the Lord , he maketh even his enemies to be at peace with him.

All of Jesus ways pleased the Lord, yet his enemies wanted to kill him.

Proverbs 22:6
Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.

Some people have trained there child very well, yet the kid departed from the way.

Proverbs are not all 100% guarantees or 100% orders to be followed, but they are still true. We shouldn't just dismiss the whole book of proverbs or look down upon it, but we should take them as they are, WISE SAYINGS.

That's pretty much what I was saying this whole time but indirectly.

So whats the point of using proverbs to justify spanking, or proverbs to justify hitting fools with a rod, or punching a scoffer?

I'm not contradicting the bible, I'm saying that the scripture you all have given to support spanking doesn't hold it's own weight when compared to our number 1 example, Jesus. Jesus wisdom trumps Solomon's wisdom any day.



You are trying to say that because Jesus didn't robotically "obey" Solomon that the Bible is not valid.


That's not what I'm saying at all.

Here's some food for thought, can something be in the bible, be true, yet still not be something we should practice in our lives?

jayne
Oct 24th 2013, 07:18 PM
Here's some food for thought, can something be in the bible, be true, yet still not be something we should practice in our lives?

If I answer yes, then that might lead to a slippery slope of saying that the authority of Bible is all relative to the subjective conscience of the reader. It isn't.

What is relative, occasionally and with extreme discernment, is the application of SOME scripture to the individual. For example: I teach school (I'm currently down with the mother of all stomach viruses - I know, TMI) and I spank. Rarely. But I do. However, I would never spank a handicapped child, molested child, underweight child, special education child, emotionally disturbed child, or a child for whom spanking is not a deterrent.

Spanking is not my primary choice of correcting behavior with middle school students, but I do employ it. I do not take the scriptures advising the rod of discipline to mean anything more than a stinging swat on the rear. And I do not take to be a universal proverb for all students for all occasions.



I can't think of anything more that would be profitable from me here. I'm done.

Low Class Begger
Oct 24th 2013, 08:19 PM
Step 1.

So is it right for us to spank kids AND hit people who lack sense?

Proverbs 10:13
Wisdom is found on the lips of the discerning, but a rod is for the back of the one who lacks sense.

Can I only hit the people lacking sense who haven't been handicapped, molested, or emotionally disturbed?

TrustGzus
Oct 24th 2013, 10:10 PM
Hey LCB,

I'm not calling you a troll, or anything else. I haven't. I'm not now. What I have done is attempt to discuss the issue with you and what I see is that you don't address my points. What you have done is created a chart, a fallible chart I might add --- not God breathed, and you fall back on this as if it's a refutation. It's not.

I'm giving you AAA categorical syllogisms to make my points. This is Aristotelian logic that you learn in any philosophy 101 class. Back to one of my examples to illustrate.

(minor premise) Proverbs teaches spanking.
(major premise) Spanking is a sin.
(conclusion) Therefore, Proverbs teaches us to sin.

The only way to avoid saying that Proverbs teaches us to sin is to reject one of the premises. You either have to show that Proverbs isn't teaching spanking (you haven't done this), or you can say spanking is not a sin (you don't seem open to this), and if not, one is stuck with the conclusion.

The other way I metioned that is a way out of it is to show, if possible, that Proverbs only applied to people under a certain dispensation and that it doesn't apply to the current dispensation or covenant. However, you haven't done that either.

Replying "step 1" or "step 3" or whatever is not addressing the issue. It's a dodge.

But Proverbs can't be teaching us to sin because Proverbs is from God.

(major premise) The whole Bible is given by God (your words).
(minor premise) Proverbs is in the Bible.
(conclusion) Therefore, Proverbs is given by God.

If Proverbs is from God, then surely, God isn't teaching us to sin. Again, can't counter this line of reasoning by your flow chart of sorts. You have to show which premise is faulty and why. You are refuting Proverbs with your interpretation of Jesus. However, if Proverbs is from God (necessary conclusion from the premises), you are refuting God with Jesus. On what basis?

If I say:

All A is B.
All B is C.
Therefore, All A is C,

replying "step 1" doesn't prove "All A is C" is wrong.

Another example. I brought up 2 Samuel 7:14 in which God speaks of using the rod himself in disciplining. Your way of doing that was quote another verse in 2 Samuel 7 as if that somehow undoes what was said in 7:14. When I ask if you would apply the same method in Proverbs 23 and reject Proverbs 23:17 because you don't like Proverbs 23:13-14, again you don't interact with the argument.

This is where I find your case lacking integrity of dealing with all the facts and then coming to a conclusion. If you would deal with these points, show how they are faulty and then through similar reasoning (premises that lead to your conclusion rather than start there), it could be a good discussion.

When you bring up points, I try to tackle them head on. You said it was ok for Solomon to be polygamous. I addressed it directly. I told you he violated Deut 17:17 and that just because the Bible records historically what the man did in a passage that is historical narrative doesn't mean what he did was approved or ok.

I'm not setting the Bible against the Bible.

Let me address other points of yours directly rather than makes up my own flow chart and quote a step at you supposing that refutes you. In your attempt to refute the syllogism above, instead of dealing with them directly, you detour and give lots of examples where you say Jesus could have struck back, but he didn't. In none of those cases was Jesus dealing with a misbehaving child. He was dealing with adults who were persecutors and ones who rejected Jesus and his teachings. What does how Jesus dealt with adversaries have to do with discipline methods of children? You are using apples to refute oranges. It doesn't work.

I am still interested in discussing this issue. I could be wrong. I've been wrong about many things. I've changed my views on many things so I am open to being wrong on this. However, for the above reasons (1. retreating to your flow chart instead of dealing with challenges head on and 2. using "apple" verses to refute "orange" verses) I can not take your case seriously up to this point.

Sojourner
Oct 24th 2013, 10:41 PM
Thread closed for review.