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Oregongrown
Oct 19th 2013, 03:49 PM
Oh well, I misspelled the topic, it's supposed to be King, not Kind, sorry everyone.

I believe this man (King) was not satan, I do believe he was allowing himself to be influenced (bought into satanic temptations) but I don't see the "man" as satan.

feedback welcome, there seems to be a lot of different ideas on The King of Tyre, so I would like to hear from anyone interested, may God bless your day! denise, a sister in Christ

Verse that tells me (one verse so far) this was just a man who called himself a god:


Ezekiel 28:1
“Because your heart is lifted up,
And you say, ‘I am a god,
I sit in the seat of gods,
In the midst of the seas,’
Yet you are a man, and not a god, (my bold emphasis)
Though you set your heart as the heart of a god

There is God's Word saying this was a man, satan was an angel, not a man as I read it


Edit by BrianW: I fixed the title for you. :)

Noeb
Oct 19th 2013, 04:14 PM
JFB Commentary
"Eze 28:2
Because, etc. — repeated resumptively in Eze_28:6. The apodosis begins at Eze_28:7. “The prince of Tyrus” at the time was Ithobal, or Ithbaal II; the name implying his close connection with Baal, the Phoenician supreme god, whose representative he was.
I am a god, I sit in ... seat of God ... the seas — As God sits enthroned in His heavenly citadel exempt from all injury, so I sit secure in my impregnable stronghold amidst the stormiest elements, able to control them at will, and make them subserve my interests. The language, though primarily here applied to the king of Tyre, as similar language is to the king of Babylon (Isa_14:13, Isa_14:14), yet has an ulterior and fuller accomplishment in Satan and his embodiment in Antichrist (Dan_7:25; Dan_11:36, Dan_11:37; 2Th_2:4; Rev_13:6). This feeling of superhuman elevation in the king of Tyre was fostered by the fact that the island on which Tyre stood was called “the holy island” [Sanconiathon], being sacred to Hercules, so much so that the colonies looked up to Tyre as the mother city of their religion, as well as of their political existence. The Hebrew for “God” is El, that is, “the Mighty One.”"

Francis Drake
Oct 19th 2013, 04:20 PM
I believe this man (King) was not satan, I do believe he was allowing himself to be influenced (bought into satanic temptations) but I don't see the "man" as satan.

feedback welcome, there seems to be a lot of different ideas on The King of Tyre, so I would like to hear from anyone interested, may God bless your day! denise, a sister in Christ

Verse that tells me (one verse so far) this was just a man who called himself a god:


Ezekiel 28:1
“Because your heart is lifted up,
And you say, ‘I am a god,
I sit in the seat of gods,
In the midst of the seas,’
Yet you are a man, and not a god, (my bold emphasis)
Though you set your heart as the heart of a god

There is God's Word saying this was a man, satan was an angel, not a man as I read it

I think you are mixing the chapter up a little.
Verse1 is certainly speaking to a man, and not Satan. However that man was not the true king of Tyre.
The following list shows the various translations of the Hebrew word in verse 1 as indicated by Strong's Numbering. Not one of them is a king.

chief (2), chief officer (3), commander (1), leader (14), noble things (1), nobles (1), officer (3), officers (1), officials (1), Prince (1), prince (5), princes (1), ruler (11).

From verse11 onwards, Ezekiel then starts to address the real power behind that commander/chief/prince/etc of Tyre.
11Again the word of the LORD came to me saying, 12"Son of man, take up a lamentation over the king of Tyre and say to him, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "You had the seal of perfection, Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.13"You were in Eden, the garden of God; Every precious stone was your covering: The ruby, the topaz and the diamond; The beryl, the onyx and the jasper; The lapis lazuli, the turquoise and the emerald; And the gold, the workmanship of your settings and sockets, Was in you. On the day that you were created they were prepared.…

This describes Satan, the real power of Tyre. Satan was in the Garden of Eden which was of course long before the city of Tyre was established. Therefore this person who was in Eden and also present at Tyre in that day of Ezekiel could not be any mere man.

Oregongrown
Oct 19th 2013, 04:31 PM
JFB Commentary
"Eze 28:2
Because, etc. — repeated resumptively in Eze_28:6. The apodosis begins at Eze_28:7. “The prince of Tyrus” at the time was Ithobal, or Ithbaal II; the name implying his close connection with Baal, the Phoenician supreme god, whose representative he was.
I am a god, I sit in ... seat of God ... the seas — As God sits enthroned in His heavenly citadel exempt from all injury, so I sit secure in my impregnable stronghold amidst the stormiest elements, able to control them at will, and make them subserve my interests. The language, though primarily here applied to the king of Tyre, as similar language is to the king of Babylon (Isa_14:13, Isa_14:14), yet has an ulterior and fuller accomplishment in Satan and his embodiment in Antichrist (Dan_7:25; Dan_11:36, Dan_11:37; 2Th_2:4; Rev_13:6). This feeling of superhuman elevation in the king of Tyre was fostered by the fact that the island on which Tyre stood was called “the holy island” [Sanconiathon], being sacred to Hercules, so much so that the colonies looked up to Tyre as the mother city of their religion, as well as of their political existence. The Hebrew for “God” is El, that is, “the Mighty One.”"

This was interesting and thank you. So you do not see the King as satan either it appears. I don't want to be "right" I just want to discuss things that are confusing to me. God teaches me yes, but I can't help but believe, that there are those with more wisdom to help me. Even David and other's in the bible, had their advisers, which I know too well, I need to use God's Word, ultimately, to know HIS Truth;)

God bless, and thank you again, denise, a sister in Christ

Oregongrown
Oct 19th 2013, 04:40 PM
I think you are mixing the chapter up a little.
Verse1 is certainly speaking to a man, and not Satan. However that man was not the true king of Tyre.
The following list shows the various translations of the Hebrew word in verse 1 as indicated by Strong's Numbering. Not one of them is a king.

chief (2), chief officer (3), commander (1), leader (14), noble things (1), nobles (1), officer (3), officers (1), officials (1), Prince (1), prince (5), princes (1), ruler (11).

From verse11 onwards, Ezekiel then starts to address the real power behind that commander/chief/prince/etc of Tyre.
11Again the word of the LORD came to me saying, 12"Son of man, take up a lamentation over the king of Tyre and say to him, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "You had the seal of perfection, Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.13"You were in Eden, the garden of God; Every precious stone was your covering: The ruby, the topaz and the diamond; The beryl, the onyx and the jasper; The lapis lazuli, the turquoise and the emerald; And the gold, the workmanship of your settings and sockets, Was in you. On the day that you were created they were prepared.…

This describes Satan, the real power of Tyre. Satan was in the Garden of Eden which was of course long before the city of Tyre was established. Therefore this person who was in Eden and also present at Tyre in that day of Ezekiel could not be any mere man.

So I can understand if he wasn't a "real" King, the thing is, I do believe that the presence of satan, as well as who he is/was is described as well, but he was the influence, not the ruler or whatever of Tyre, only by influence, partially only as well.

My purpose with this thread is to find out what others think about satan being the King of Tyre (or ruler, or leader). Again I understand if a man does not follow God, there is only one other to follow, satan

Noeb
Oct 19th 2013, 04:55 PM
So you do not see the King as satan either it appears.Well the power, riches, and wisdom the king had was through satan so who is it really talking about? Satan, as we see from verse 11 on.

Love Fountain
Oct 19th 2013, 04:58 PM
So I can understand if he wasn't a "real" King, the thing is, I do believe that the presence of satan, as well as who he is/was is described as well, but he was the influence, not the ruler or whatever of Tyre, only by influence, partially only as well.

My purpose with this thread is to find out what others think about satan being the King of Tyre (or ruler, or leader). Again I understand if a man does not follow God, there is only one other to follow, satan

Hello Denise,


It is written in Deuteronomy 32 as follows:

Deut 32:4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

He, meaning Yeshua/Jesus is the Rock. He is our Rock.

Yet if we keep reading the same chapter we find out there is another rock, a copy cat so to say:

Deut 32:31 For their rock is not as our Rock, even our enemies themselves being judges.

Now back to the King or Prince of Tyre. The word Tyre when looked up in a hebrew concordance/dictionary means "rock".

Satan, the devil, the king/prince of Tyre, that old serpent, man of sin, man of lawlessness, son of perdition, etc.. has many names and titles but it's all one in the same entity.

What you have in Ezekiel 28 is God referring to the same entity but dressing him down, from a king to a prince, letting him know who is really in charge.

Do you have a concordance to look up the english words in the original languages the Bible was written in? It really helps.

Hope this helps!

Bless you,
Love Fountain

Oregongrown
Oct 19th 2013, 05:27 PM
Well the power, riches, and wisdom the king had was through satan so who is it really talking about? Satan, as we see from verse 11 on.

I will agree that both are being talked about, but I do not see that satan is "this" king/ruler. I may be wrong, but why would God say he is a man if He were not also talking about "a man" not the fallen angel satan.

I think you may be saying that the ruler is possessed, or is taking over by satan which I mentioned something similar before. We all can be influenced by satan, I can even see this "man" as a sort of anti-christ.

I see the verses in 28 having two, main topics, this "ruler" of Tyre, then, it does switch and talk about satan, but I do think it is satan's influence over the ruler, that is the main subject. I'll go read it again because that is just off the top of my head.

Ok, I relate this to a verse I know in the NT, when Jesus said "to" Peter, satan, get thee behind me:

Matthew 16:23New King James Version (NKJV)

23 But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.”

This is what I think the Lord is telling me. First, Ezekiel was a prophet, so he was speaking what God told him to, the words were from God. That's how I understand a prophet/prophecy, so with that, Ezekiel is telling the Kind of Tyre the message he has from God. But when Ezekiel speaks as if to satan, I think he is still talking straight to the King of Tyre, the man. I may be wrong, but that verse from Matthew came into my head for some reason.

Love Fountain
Oct 19th 2013, 06:34 PM
I will agree that both are being talked about, but I do not see that satan is "this" king/ruler. I may be wrong, but why would God say he is a man if He were not also talking about "a man" not the fallen angel satan.




Hello Denise

Please share who you think the man of sin is in the following verses from 2Thes 2:3-4?

2Thes 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.


Here is a hint, he is the same entity as the prince of Tyrus/Tyre in the following verses when God dresses him down:


Eze 28:2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:



Bless you,
Love Fountain

Oregongrown
Oct 19th 2013, 06:46 PM
Hello Denise

Please share who you think the man of sin is in the following verses from 2Thes 2:3-4?

2Thes 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.


Here is a hint, he is the same entity as the prince of Tyrus/Tyre in the following verses when God dresses him down:


Eze 28:2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:



Bless you,
Love Fountain

Like an anti-Christ, which I think I mentioned in another post. satan is not a man though, so he could only have influence over one, right? That is my whole point I made about what I think those verses are about, yes a man, but also about satan. Two, separate forms, but satan is the one God addresses second in the chapter. That's my take.

Noeb
Oct 19th 2013, 06:46 PM
I will agree that both are being talked about, but I do not see that satan is "this" king/ruler.If the man operates a kingdom of this world, which are under the power of the god of this world, what's the difference?


I think you may be saying that the ruler is possessed,Possession is not necessary.


but I do think it is satan's influence over the ruler, that is the main subject.then we agree

Types, allegory, eh.....the point is, for those that say it is just about a man, satan is undeniably in view, and there's no getting around that fact.

Oregongrown
Oct 19th 2013, 06:57 PM
If the man operates a kingdom of this world, which are under the power of the god of this world, what's the difference?

Possession is not necessary.

then we agree

Types, allegory, eh.....the point is, for those that say it is just about a man, satan is undeniably in view, and there's no getting around that fact.

I believe I stated that from the beginning, that satan was being talked about as well. I got the idea that some people are thinking that the man was not a man at all, but satan. Now if there is something in the bible that tells me satan is a man (not merely influence one) then I could see some other points of view I've seen here. But my solid belief is that the king of tyre was a man, God says he is.

Noeb
Oct 19th 2013, 07:07 PM
I believe I stated that from the beginning, that satan was being talked about as well. I got the idea that some people are thinking that the man was not a man at all, but satan. Now if there is something in the bible that tells me satan is a man (not merely influence one) then I could see some other points of view I've seen here. But my solid belief is that the king of tyre was a man, God says he is.Ah, is the glass half full or half empty? I get it. I don't know how anyone could remove man from scripture anymore than I can understand how anyone would think the man was also in Eden as a cherub, or why they would feel the need, since both are clearly in view.

Oregongrown
Oct 19th 2013, 07:14 PM
Ah, is the glass half full or half empty? I get it. I don't know how anyone could remove man from scripture anymore than I can understand how anyone would think the man was also in Eden as a cherub, or why they would feel the need, since both are clearly in view.

I don't really understand what you are saying:confused I admit to having a few pages stuck together at times :hmm:

divaD
Oct 19th 2013, 09:08 PM
Oh well, I misspelled the topic, it's supposed to be King, not Kind, sorry everyone.

I believe this man (King) was not satan, I do believe he was allowing himself to be influenced (bought into satanic temptations) but I don't see the "man" as satan.

feedback welcome, there seems to be a lot of different ideas on The King of Tyre, so I would like to hear from anyone interested, may God bless your day! denise, a sister in Christ

Verse that tells me (one verse so far) this was just a man who called himself a god:


Ezekiel 28:1
“Because your heart is lifted up,
And you say, ‘I am a god,
I sit in the seat of gods,
In the midst of the seas,’
Yet you are a man, and not a god, (my bold emphasis)
Though you set your heart as the heart of a god

There is God's Word saying this was a man, satan was an angel, not a man as I read it



I would have to look for some passages, but I'm pretty certain that the OT at times described angels as being men. But I don't think that even matters though, since the passage you are referring to is meaning the prince of Tyrus, and not the king. What I'm thinking then, the prince is meaning the son of perdition in 2 Thess 2, which would make him a man, as in human, while the king is meaning satan.

I'm not dogmatic about any of the above, but to me anyway, if the king is meaning satan, then the son must be meaning the one that will sit in the temple of God as if he is God, referring again to 2 Thess 2.

Oregongrown
Oct 19th 2013, 09:24 PM
I would have to look for some passages, but I'm pretty certain that the OT at times described angels as being men. But I don't think that even matters though, since the passage you are referring to is meaning the prince of Tyrus, and not the king. What I'm thinking then, the prince is meaning the son of perdition in 2 Thess 2, which would make him a man, as in human, while the king is meaning satan.

I'm not dogmatic about any of the above, but to me anyway, if the king is meaning satan, then the son must be meaning the one that will sit in the temple of God as if he is God, referring again to 2 Thess 2.

Hi David,

I think it's all there, I think I can make things too hard, and sometimes yes, allow someone else to make it difficult. And that's not their fault, it's mine.

That's interesting about the "angels" being described as men, but I seem to recall something about the sons of God mating with the daughters of men? Is that the one your are thinking of? If that's the one then I think that the sons of God were just men, and the daughters of men were called that because woman came from Adam's rib. That's a whole other deal though, and maybe not even the passage your were thinking of. I know some folks hold the belief that the sons of God were angels. I don't think so, but that's just my take on it.

denise, ysic

divaD
Oct 19th 2013, 10:34 PM
Hi David,

I think it's all there, I think I can make things too hard, and sometimes yes, allow someone else to make it difficult. And that's not their fault, it's mine.

That's interesting about the "angels" being described as men, but I seem to recall something about the sons of God mating with the daughters of men? Is that the one your are thinking of? If that's the one then I think that the sons of God were just men, and the daughters of men were called that because woman came from Adam's rib. That's a whole other deal though, and maybe not even the passage your were thinking of. I know some folks hold the belief that the sons of God were angels. I don't think so, but that's just my take on it.

denise, ysic

Nope, wasn't thinking about Genesis 6. Personally, even though there was a time I entertained it, I don't believe the sons of God in Genesis 6 are meaning literal angels. I'm thinking more along the lines of the following.

Genesis 19:1 And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground;
Genesis 19:5 And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.


Something along those lines. But like I indicated, if the prince of Tyrus is meaning the son of perdition like I'm thinking, then 'man' in Ezekiel 28 would be meaning as in human. As far as I can tell, it was never said the king was a man, but only that the prince was a man. Unless I overlooked something of course.

luigi
Oct 20th 2013, 03:28 PM
I believe I stated that from the beginning, that satan was being talked about as well. I got the idea that some people are thinking that the man was not a man at all, but satan. Now if there is something in the bible that tells me satan is a man (not merely influence one) then I could see some other points of view I've seen here. But my solid belief is that the king of tyre was a man, God says he is.
I suspect the King of Tyre is in reference to the antichrist.
However, as the antichrist, who represents the second beast in Revelation 13, is allied to the primary beast with seven heads and ten horns, it is possible the primary beast represents the King of Tyre.
Both the primary and second beasts actions are influenced by Satan, and therefore Satan is credited in these actions as well.

When Peter was influenced by Satan, the Lord told Peter "Get behind me Satan...".

Oregongrown
Oct 20th 2013, 03:42 PM
I suspect the King of Tyre is in reference to the antichrist as well.
However, as the antichrist, who represents the second beast in Revelation 13, is allied to the primary beast with seven heads and ten horns, it is possible the primary beast represents the King of Tyre.
Both the primary and second beasts actions are influenced by Satan, and therefore Satan is credited in these actions as well.

When Peter was influenced by Satan, the Lord told Peter "Get behind me Satan...".


First of all, I think God has put it on my heart to thank folks that reply with a christian attitude, so thank you luigi, for your excellent way of communication. I see so many give replies here that show little of the love of Christ. Sometimes I am almost afraid to look and see what someone has posted, not that I am truly afraid, just more sad for those that either just want to show how smart they are, or at least how much smarter then everyone else they are, and again, little of the love of Christ.

Ok, lucky you, you got to be the first, great post of the day I have read:) May God bless you for it.

Now, to your post:):lol: I think you make some great points, you may know I am just learning, and sort of participating as I go, but I am not well, studied, yet:idea: I think the king tyre has to do with the anti-christ as well. Somehow, God has chose to write these verses just as they are, to teach us. Many get all kinds of different takes. But it is those that have read all the bible, and see how it interlinks (our new fangled technology "links" online, have nothing on the "links" in the bible;) )

ysic, denise:encouragement:

TrustGzus
Oct 20th 2013, 06:10 PM
In these chapters, 25-32, God is judging Israel's neighbors. It seems proper to interpret this as a man. God tells Ezekiel in verse 11, "take up a lament against the king of Tyre and say to him . . . "

Even Michael the archangel doesn't bring a reviling accusation against Satan but simply says "The Lord rebuke you" (Jude 9). Why would God expect his prophet to address Satan directly?

Oregongrown
Oct 20th 2013, 06:15 PM
In these chapters, 25-32, God is judging Israel's neighbors. It seems proper to interpret this as a man. God tells Ezekiel in verse 11, "take up a lament against the king of Tyre and say to him . . . "

Even Michael the archangel doesn't bring a reviling accusation against Satan but simply says "The Lord rebuke you" (Jude 9). Why would God expect his prophet to address Satan directly?

Oh wow, what a wonderful point, thank you TG! That thought never crossed my mind but I just read it not too many days ago:lol: God is good, denise, ysic;) ps about Michael and satan that is what I had read;)

Noeb
Oct 21st 2013, 12:56 AM
Why would God expect his prophet to address Satan directly?who says he was?

TrustGzus
Oct 21st 2013, 01:53 AM
who says he was?

If one thinks the king is Satan, then that conclusion seems inescapable....

If the king of Tyre is Satan &
God told Ezekiel to speak to the king of Tyre,
Then God told Ezekiel to speak to Satan.

Seems like a necessary conclusion if the king really is Satan.

Balabusha
Oct 21st 2013, 03:27 AM
who says he was?

I am not sure how this can be made into an anti-christ end times paradigm, other than the King of Tyre is an anti-christ in the form of being a thorn in the side of God's people who were to usher in the Messiah.

The prophesy against the King of Tyre is within in a group of chapters that is in relation to judgement on Israel's neighbors. The vocabulary in Ezekiel 28 is directed toward a man.

1.The chapter is broken down into segments (Those in relation to the King of Tyre)

a: verses 1-5: This is a prophesy against the King of Tyre and his proud heart, the opening verses compare him to a god, a small "g" god.The prophecy is in relation to the King of Tyres god. The King was proud over the wealth of his city, he heightened himself to his god of the sea.
b: verses 6-10: This is the prophesy of the destruction and downfall of the King of Tyre, and it contrasts his arrogance with his views as being "wise" like a god with the same illustrations given in verse 2 to pronounce destruction "They will bring you down to the pit, and you will die a violent death in the heart of the seas".
c: verses 11-19: This passage illustrates the Satanic power that influenced the King of Tyre.

Noeb
Oct 21st 2013, 05:16 AM
If one thinks the king is Satan, then that conclusion seems inescapable....

If the king of Tyre is Satan &
God told Ezekiel to speak to the king of Tyre,
Then God told Ezekiel to speak to Satan.

Seems like a necessary conclusion if the king really is Satan.Again, who is saying the king is satan? What people have said is the power behind the king is satan. You know, the god of this world? The real issue here is that some dismiss this power being emphasized in the passage.

TrustGzus
Oct 21st 2013, 12:29 PM
Again, who is saying the king is satan? What people have said is the power behind the king is satan. You know, the god of this world? The real issue here is that some dismiss this power being emphasized in the passage.

The real issue is defined by Oregongrown. It's her question, her thread. She asked from the OP if the king is Satan. Her follow-up comments indicate this is her question as well. All I've done is address that point. I don't understand why you are taking a hard stance here with me as if I've introduced some foreign concept not being talked about.

If you want to know who is saying the king is satan, ask Oregongrown. It's her thread and her question.

FYI, I do have several commentaries on Ezekiel and some commentators do claim this.

Love Fountain
Oct 21st 2013, 02:18 PM
The real issue is defined by Oregongrown.




I see so many give replies here that show little of the love of Christ. Sometimes I am almost afraid to look and see what someone has posted, not that I am truly afraid, just more sad for those that either just want to show how smart they are, or at least how much smarter then everyone else they are, and again, little of the love of Christ. - oregongrown


The real issue in this thread has become that someone who just starts barely reading the bible asks for help and those who try to help are now questioned for their love of Christ just because their response is not understood. Instead of asking a question about what was shared, now they are spoken about poorly when they are merely someone that was just trying to be helpful.

Tyre means rock. It appears that offering a concordance dictionary to look up the meaning of the english word in the original language the text was written in shows little love of Christ?

The king of tyrus/tyre is satan. Most scholars agree.

Ezekiel speaks God's words to satan the king of tyre, Ezekiel doesn't speak his own words.

If anyone doesn't want to believe satan is the king of tyre and ignore the evidence provided, so be it.

Enjoy your day but have a little respect for another believer in Christ and keep your rocks to your self please! Because rocks cast at another believer will only come back to those who think they are good enough to cast rocks as a judge of someone who Christ loves and has forgiven!

Deut 32:4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

He, meaning Yeshua/Jesus is the Rock. He is our Rock.

Yet if we keep reading the same chapter we find out there is another rock, a copy cat so to say:

Deut 32:31 For their rock is not as our Rock, even our enemies themselves being judges.

Now back to the King or Prince of Tyre. The word Tyre when looked up in a hebrew concordance/dictionary means "rock".

In Yeshua's name,
Love Fountain

Oregongrown
Oct 21st 2013, 03:01 PM
The real issue is defined by Oregongrown. It's her question, her thread. She asked from the OP if the king is Satan. Her follow-up comments indicate this is her question as well. All I've done is address that point. I don't understand why you are taking a hard stance here with me as if I've introduced some foreign concept not being talked about.

If you want to know who is saying the king is satan, ask Oregongrown. It's her thread and her question.

FYI, I do have several commentaries on Ezekiel and some commentators do claim this.

I agree with this, please stick to the topic, or ask me. Also, I understand how we can wander off topic, but it is good if we all try to stick to it. I am in agreement with TrustGzus here on what we've discussed regarding the king being satan, or a man. denise, a sister in Christ

Love Fountain
Oct 21st 2013, 03:07 PM
Satan, the devil, the king/prince of Tyre, that old serpent, man of sin, man of lawlessness, son of perdition, etc.. has many names and titles but it's all one in the same entity.




Eze 28:12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.


"Thus saith the Lord GOD" not Thus saith Ezekiel! This is God speaking to the king of tyrus/tyre/rock aka the devil/satan.


28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.


There were only three in the garden of eden, the man, the woman and the serpent(devil, satan). This isn't speaking of the man or the woman so that would only leave one king of Tyrus/Tyre who was in the garden with the man and woman.


28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.


All angels in the Bible always appear as a "man".


28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.


Iniquity means wickedness and refers to the wicked one.


28:16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

28:17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.


One day satan/the devil will be cast out of heaven just like is written in Revelation 12, he will be cast to the ground/earth. When he is cast out, then he will fulfill 2Thes 2 and be same entity as the prince of Tyre in Eze 28 who claims to be god. But he is no god, he will appear as a man. The statement that the devil/satan is an angel and not a man is not correct because angels ALWAYS appear as men in scripture.


Here come's his judgment by God. The son sentenced to perish aka the son of perdition mentioned in 2Thes 2 revealed.


28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

28:19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.


He was sentenced to perish, the son of perdition and never shalt he be anymore after the time his allowed.

The king of tyre is satan/the devil before his fall, the prince of tyre/tyrus is satan after his fall, when he is demoted and cast out of heaven to the earth at which time he will fulfill 2Thes 2 and the prince of tyrus/tyre in Eze 28.

In Yeshua's name,
Love Fountain

Oregongrown
Oct 21st 2013, 03:40 PM
Eze 28:12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.


"Thus saith the Lord GOD" not Thus saith Ezekiel! This is God speaking to the king of tyrus/tyre/rock aka the devil/satan.


28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.


There were only three in the garden of eden, the man, the woman and the serpent(devil, satan). This isn't speaking of the man or the woman so that would only leave one king of Tyrus/Tyre who was in the garden with the man and woman.


28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.


All angels in the Bible always appear as a "man".


28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.


Iniquity means wickedness and refers to the wicked one.


28:16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

28:17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.


One day satan/the devil will be cast out of heaven just like is written in Revelation 12, he will be cast to the ground/earth. When he is cast out, then he will fulfill 2Thes 2 and be same entity as the prince of Tyre in Eze 28 who claims to be god. But he is no god, he will appear as a man. The statement that the devil/satan is an angel and not a man is not correct because angels ALWAYS appear as men in scripture.


Here come's his judgment by God. The son sentenced to perish aka the son of perdition mentioned in 2Thes 2 revealed.


28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

28:19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.


He was sentenced to perish, the son of perdition and never shalt he be anymore after the time his allowed.

The king of tyre is satan/the devil before his fall, the prince of tyre/tyrus is satan after his fall, when he is demoted and cast out of heaven to the earth at which time he will fulfill 2Thes 2 and the prince of tyrus/tyre in Eze 28.

In Yeshua's name,
Love Fountain

I appreciate your take on this LF, although I do not believe (at this point) that the King of Tyre is satan himself. Trustgzus info is just inarguable in my opinion, which we know we all have one. Sometimes we agree sometimes we don't. I am reading other material as I go as well, but that is leaning toward another topic so I won't go there.

Most of all, I trust in the Lord to show me (lead me) into all Truth. Again, I appreciate your thoughts/replies, denise, a sister in Christ

David Taylor
Oct 21st 2013, 06:17 PM
Ezekiel is using the literary technique called, 'Personification'.

He is presenting the ancient King of Tyre, in all his wickedness, as a personification of Satan; as one like Satan.

Sometimes this is done of the King of Babylon, the King of Egypt, The King of Assyria....it is a pretty common literary device.

Oregongrown
Oct 21st 2013, 06:23 PM
Ezekiel is using the literary technique called, 'Personification'.

He is presenting the ancient King of Tyre, in all his wickedness, as a personification of Satan; as one like Satan.

Sometimes this is done of the King of Babylon, the King of Egypt, The King of Assyria....it is a pretty common literary device.

I agree with this, it is what I believe God has shown me. Also, so many writers I know of and respect, see it similarly. Thank you for this David, denise, ysic

luigi
Oct 21st 2013, 07:31 PM
First of all, I think God has put it on my heart to thank folks that reply with a christian attitude, so thank you luigi, for your excellent way of communication. I see so many give replies here that show little of the love of Christ. Sometimes I am almost afraid to look and see what someone has posted, not that I am truly afraid, just more sad for those that either just want to show how smart they are, or at least how much smarter then everyone else they are, and again, little of the love of Christ.

Ok, lucky you, you got to be the first, great post of the day I have read:) May God bless you for it.

Now, to your post:):lol: I think you make some great points, you may know I am just learning, and sort of participating as I go, but I am not well, studied, yet:idea: I think the king tyre has to do with the anti-christ as well. Somehow, God has chose to write these verses just as they are, to teach us. Many get all kinds of different takes. But it is those that have read all the bible, and see how it interlinks (our new fangled technology "links" online, have nothing on the "links" in the bible;) )

ysic, denise:encouragement:You are quite right Oregongrown, the Bible has a lot of interlinking parts which God has chosen to write as it appears.

The Bible also says there will come a time when the mystery of God (I believe in reference to all the interlinking parts in the Bible) will become known/finished (Rev 10:7).

Balabusha
Oct 21st 2013, 07:41 PM
I don't think I would go as far as personification, because the context is judgement on the nations surrounding Israel. This message was given to a specific time and audience, so to make the meaning into something totally different. This defeats the purpose of why it was written in the first place.
In most prophesy in the Tanakh, there is a near-future fulfillment and a far-future fulfillment, as prophesy is to encourage the church, and in the Prophesy against the King of Tyre we see a near-future message against the King, and as the prophesy illustrates the influence of Satan behind the King of Tyre-it also gives a general far-future prophesy of the defeat of Satan.
Both of these encouraged the faithful in that time, and one for the faithful until the defeat of satan.
To transform this whole passage into the future is not warranted by the text.

luigi
Oct 21st 2013, 08:20 PM
I don't think I would go as far as personification, because the context is judgement on the nations surrounding Israel. This message was given to a specific time and audience, so to make the meaning into something totally different. This defeats the purpose of why it was written in the first place.
In most prophesy in the Tanakh, there is a near-future fulfillment and a far-future fulfillment, as prophesy is to encourage the church, and in the Prophesy against the King of Tyre we see a near-future message against the King, and as the prophesy illustrates the influence of Satan behind the King of Tyre-it also gives a general far-future prophesy of the defeat of Satan.
Both of these encouraged the faithful in that time, and one for the faithful until the defeat of satan.
To transform this whole passage into the future is not warranted by the text.
Hello Karaite,
I'm not sure if you are responding to my post, but if you are, I would have to be under the impression that you believe the mystery of God is known/finished.
If the mystery of God (the Bible in whole) were known/finished, I think everyone on this forum would be of accord on the meaning of every scripture in the Bible.
But as you can see, there are many differing opinions on scriptures. As such, it is then obvious that the mystery of God (the contents of the Bible in full) is not finished/known.

ChangedByHim
Oct 21st 2013, 11:53 PM
Ezekiel 28:11-19 is definitely referring to Lucifer/Satan. Was the Prince of Persia in Daniel 10 a physical prince?

Balabusha
Oct 21st 2013, 11:59 PM
Hi luigi!
I was not thinking of you specifically in my post. I think you coming to the conclusion that I must think the mystery of God is totally finished or totally known because we don't come to the same conclusion is problematic.
A person who I know is a great Christian lady, but she thinks that we are not reading the Bible literally because she is looking for a literal temple to be rebuilt in three days-she thinks we are reading an allegory into the text by interpreting this to be about Jesus's body.
Now in reality this is a simple passage, and she is the one guilty of reading an allegory into the text.
She is reading a paradigm into the text and is drunk on end times wine.
The resurrection has already taken place, and is old news, and taken for granted- because she needs/wants more from the text.
So in effect, she has created a mystery that is not even there-interpreting the Bible drunk on the end times wine.
In the same manner to extract an antiChrist scenario from this text is creating a mystery that just is not there.

Balabusha
Oct 22nd 2013, 12:08 AM
Ezekiel 28:11-19 is definitely referring to Lucifer/Satan. Was the Prince of Persia in Daniel 10 a physical prince?

For sure it is illustrating Satan, it is showing the reader the decieving influence behind the King of Tyre. The prophecies against tyre are absolute gems that the Bible is not the writings of men with an imagination. Look at your history-it happened just like predicted.
As for the "prince of Persia" in Daniel 10, it follows the same example as the king of tyre, it is illustrating the Satanic influence of the Kingdoms, notice it says the "I will return to fight against the prince of Persia, and when I go, the prince of Greeece will come"
This is in relation to verse 13, and shows the spiritual ruler of the Kingdoms.

Noeb
Oct 22nd 2013, 01:30 AM
The real issue is defined by Oregongrown. It's her question, her thread. She asked from the OP if the king is Satan. Her follow-up comments indicate this is her question as well. All I've done is address that point. I don't understand why you are taking a hard stance here with me as if I've introduced some foreign concept not being talked about.

If you want to know who is saying the king is satan, ask Oregongrown. It's her thread and her question.

FYI, I do have several commentaries on Ezekiel and some commentators do claim this.You are confused as is Oregongrown. There's two princes mentioned. How can it just be a man or just be a cherub when God clearly mentions both a man and a cherub? This isn't difficult.

Oregongrown
Oct 22nd 2013, 01:35 AM
You are confused as is Oregongrown. There's two princes mentioned. How can it just be a man or just be a cherub when God clearly mentions both a man and a cherub? This isn't difficult.

Ok, here's the deal, because someone disagrees with you, does not mean they are confused and it is just impolite to say so, certainly not christian-like. You will get much further in discussing things with people if you treat them with respect, even if they don't see things the way you do.

I respect your right to believe as you do, but I won't discuss anything with someone that is just, plain rude.

Noeb
Oct 22nd 2013, 04:14 AM
Ok, here's the deal, because someone disagrees with you, does not mean they are confusedbut someone doesn't disagree with me. They say the king is a man when it plainly says a king is a man and a king is a cherub.



and it is just impolite to say so, certainly not christian-like.How is it impolite and not christian-like to say someone is confused after repeatedly pointing out the obvious and them not getting it? I would consider it impolite and not christian-like to not point it out.



You will get much further in discussing things with people if you treat them with respect, even if they don't see things the way you do.I respect TrustGzus as much as it is possible here. Whether I am someone I am not and walk on eggshells and act PC, or shoot straight as we do here in my neck of the woods, makes no difference in how far my words get.



I respect your right to believe as you do, but I won't discuss anything with someone that is just, plain rude.and I can't discuss things with someone that wants everyone to be who they are not and act like them.

Oregongrown
Oct 22nd 2013, 05:03 AM
but someone doesn't disagree with me. They say the king is a man when it plainly says a king is a man and a king is a cherub.


How is it impolite and not christian-like to say someone is confused after repeatedly pointing out the obvious and them not getting it? I would consider it impolite and not christian-like to not point it out.


I respect TrustGzus as much as it is possible here. Whether I am someone I am not and walk on eggshells and act PC, or shoot straight as we do here in my neck of the woods, makes no difference in how far my words get.


and I can't discuss things with someone that wants everyone to be who they are not and act like them.

Well, we are getting into a personal conflict and I feel that is my fault so I apologize.

I don't know much about this whole topic, that's why I brought it up. I am satisfied with the answers I got, and I just don't want to delve into it further, or try and debate it. I know there are those more into discussing things deeper, and those much more knowledgeable than I, so I will leave it to them if they want to talk to you about Noeb. God bless your evening, denise, a sister in Christ

luigi
Oct 22nd 2013, 11:08 AM
Hi luigi!
I was not thinking of you specifically in my post. I think you coming to the conclusion that I must think the mystery of God is totally finished or totally known because we don't come to the same conclusion is problematic.
A person who I know is a great Christian lady, but she thinks that we are not reading the Bible literally because she is looking for a literal temple to be rebuilt in three days-she thinks we are reading an allegory into the text by interpreting this to be about Jesus's body.
Now in reality this is a simple passage, and she is the one guilty of reading an allegory into the text.
She is reading a paradigm into the text and is drunk on end times wine.
The resurrection has already taken place, and is old news, and taken for granted- because she needs/wants more from the text.
So in effect, she has created a mystery that is not even there-interpreting the Bible drunk on the end times wine.
In the same manner to extract an antiChrist scenario from this text is creating a mystery that just is not there.
Jesus is the Word of God.
The Word of God is contained throughout the Bible.
The mystery of God is the word of God-Jesus (the Bible).
Until the bible (the mystery of God) is fully understood to mean what it fully means; the mystery of God is then not complete/finished today.

Noeb
Oct 22nd 2013, 11:20 PM
Well, we are getting into a personal conflict and I feel that is my fault so I apologize.No need. Misunderstandings and communication breakdowns happen on forums. We just need to remember not everyone is the same.


I don't know much about this whole topic, that's why I brought it up. I am satisfied with the answers I got, and I just don't want to delve into it further, or try and debate it. I know there are those more into discussing things deeper, and those much more knowledgeable than I, so I will leave it to them if they want to talk to you about Noeb. God bless your evening, denise, a sister in ChristGreat. Everyone except TrustGzus agrees the cherub is satan so there's nothing to debate. Grace and Peace to you!

Oregongrown
Oct 23rd 2013, 12:29 AM
No need. Misunderstandings and communication breakdowns happen on forums. We just need to remember not everyone is the same.

Great. Everyone except TrustGzus agrees the cherub is satan so there's nothing to debate. Grace and Peace to you!

I didn't agree about the cherub or satan or anything in this note Noeb, I just said I was sorry, that's it.

Balabusha
Oct 23rd 2013, 01:31 AM
Jesus is the Word of God.
The Word of God is contained throughout the Bible.
The mystery of God is the word of God-Jesus (the Bible).
Until the bible (the mystery of God) is fully understood to mean what it fully means; the mystery of God is then not complete/finished today.

I am sorry, but I don't know how this fits into the prince of tyre, abd the prophey of tyres downfall?

Ceegen
Oct 23rd 2013, 01:51 AM
Oh well, I misspelled the topic, it's supposed to be King, not Kind, sorry everyone.

I believe this man (King) was not satan, I do believe he was allowing himself to be influenced (bought into satanic temptations) but I don't see the "man" as satan.

feedback welcome, there seems to be a lot of different ideas on The King of Tyre, so I would like to hear from anyone interested, may God bless your day! denise, a sister in Christ

Verse that tells me (one verse so far) this was just a man who called himself a god:


Ezekiel 28:1
“Because your heart is lifted up,
And you say, ‘I am a god,
I sit in the seat of gods,
In the midst of the seas,’
Yet you are a man, and not a god, (my bold emphasis)
Though you set your heart as the heart of a god

There is God's Word saying this was a man, satan was an angel, not a man as I read it


Edit by BrianW: I fixed the title for you. :)

My KJV bible says this:

Ezekiel 28
1 The word of the Lord came again unto me, saying,
2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord God; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:

Notice in verse two it says the "prince" of Tyrus/Tyre? That's a different entity than the one we're about to look at now, a little later in Ezekiel:

11 Moreover the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,
12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord God; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.

Ezekiel might have been talking to the prince of Tyre, but God was talking to the king of Tyre. It's a parallelism in the bible, and they're all over the place. The king of Tyre is Satan, yes. The prince of Tyre may be a man, but the king of Tyre is described as "... the anointed cherub that covereth; ...".

Balabusha
Oct 23rd 2013, 01:59 AM
It is actually not that hard of a passage, this is about the King of Tyre, a real King whose city state was very wealthy, the prophesy is towards him, but they passage later shows the connection of the influence of the King of tyre-satan.
In like manner the King of Tyre will face destruction-so will Satan.

Noeb
Oct 23rd 2013, 04:04 AM
I didn't agree about the cherub or satan or anything in this note Noeb, I just said I was sorry, that's it.

I wasn't referring to that reply, but ok, who is the cherub?

Oregongrown
Oct 23rd 2013, 04:13 AM
Please ask someone else, thank you:)

Balabusha
Oct 23rd 2013, 04:18 AM
Ok, here's the deal, because someone disagrees with you, does not mean they are confused and it is just impolite to say so, certainly not christian-like. You will get much further in discussing things with people if you treat them with respect, even if they don't see things the way you do.

I respect your right to believe as you do, but I won't discuss anything with someone that is just, plain rude.

You are a gem oregongrown, you are a true Christian in attitude and Spirit.
These guys are a little rough around the edges, but boys will be boys-they are fine.
Apologetics and Bible discussion is a man dominated section of the church, and rightly so. So we just have to play ball with the boys!

Noeb
Oct 23rd 2013, 04:35 AM
Please ask someone else, thank you:)Like I said, you already said.

Old man
Oct 23rd 2013, 06:05 AM
You are a gem oregongrown, you are a true Christian in attitude and Spirit.
These guys are a little rough around the edges, but boys will be boys-they are fine.
Apologetics and Bible discussion is a man dominated section of the church, and rightly so. So we just have to play ball with the boys!

She’s right sis about us being boys (and about everything else she said here in this post). We like dirt clod fights, BB gun fights (I know we’ll shoot our eyes out). We like playing ball tag in trees, digging tunnels, building tree houses, just plain climbing trees and burping contests. It’s the snails, pails and puppy dog tail thing I suspect. We are boys but you are more than welcome to come and play with us anytime. :cool:

But as far as your topic goes I believe that it is speaking of a man and am closer in line with TrustGzus' thoughts and perhaps Karaite's as well than any other's that I have read. And I also believe there may be reason to consider that this passage has absolutely nothing to do with satan. (I did tell you earlier about the stick and a hornets nest. ;) )

TrustGzus
Oct 23rd 2013, 12:28 PM
You are confused as is Oregongrown. There's two princes mentioned. How can it just be a man or just be a cherub when God clearly mentions both a man and a cherub? This isn't difficult.

Well, then a lot of scholars are confused too. While I mentioned that I have commentaries on my shelf that say the king in Ezekiel 28 is Satan, I have several other commentaries on my shelf that have the same idea I have. So maybe I'm confused, but I have a lot of good company. Including some others in this thread. While you say it's not difficult, and I'm assuming that means your view isn't that difficult and should be obvious, many people that are fluent in Hebrew evidently don't agree with your view.

Oregon is right. Saying things like "You are confused" and "This isn't difficult" doesn't do much to make people listen to your case. That kind of language comes off as you talking down to someone. I might be confused, but you might be too. Ezekiel isn't straightforward prose. And while you think it might not be difficult, based on the different views that people who know the language think, it might not be as simple as you think.

Nothing wrong with agreeing to disagree, Noeb.

Time to get something to eat.

Love Fountain
Oct 23rd 2013, 03:12 PM
I wasn't referring to that reply, but ok, who is the cherub?


Great question Noeb!

The cherub is satan, he was supposed to protect the mercy seat but decided he wanted to sit in the seat himself and be god.

Cherub is singular and when it is pluralized they are called cherubim. According to Webster's dictionary they are an order of angels.

Check out the words, celestial hierarchy in the Webster's too, it lists the order of angels as follows, angels, archangels, principalities, powers, virtues, dominions, thrones, cherubim and seraphim.

The sad thing is, people choose commentaries of men that say the king of Tyrus/Tyre is some man but God's word plainly states who he really is and you nailed it with your simple precise question!

Bless you,
Love Fountain

Love Fountain
Oct 23rd 2013, 03:28 PM
Well, then a lot of scholars are confused too.


Yes indeed, there are many who claim to be scholars and they will correct all their bad teachings in the millenium just like it is written!


Eze 44:6 And thou shalt say to the rebellious, even to the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; O ye house of Israel, let it suffice you of all your abominations,

44:7 In that ye have brought into my sanctuary strangers, uncircumcised in heart, and uncircumcised in flesh, to be in my sanctuary, to pollute it, even my house, when ye offer my bread, the fat and the blood, and they have broken my covenant because of all your abominations.

44:8 And ye have not kept the charge of mine holy things: but ye have set keepers of my charge in my sanctuary for yourselves.

44:9 Thus saith the Lord GOD; No stranger, uncircumcised in heart, nor uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter into my sanctuary, of any stranger that is among the children of Israel.

44:10 And the Levites that are gone away far from me, when Israel went astray, which went astray away from me after their idols; they shall even bear their iniquity.


What did Yeshua/Jesus say was the cause of their confusion/lack of understanding?


Matt 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.


As it is written so it does come to pass every single day!

Matthew 13 is the place to start reading the Bible! If you don't understand the parable of the sower, how can you understand any parables in the whole Bible?


Matt 13:3 And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;

13:4 And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:

13:5 Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:

13:6 And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.

13:7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:

13:8 But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.

13:9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.


Bless you,
Love Fountain

Oregongrown
Oct 23rd 2013, 03:44 PM
She’s right sis about us being boys (and about everything else she said here in this post). We like dirt clod fights, BB gun fights (I know we’ll shoot our eyes out). We like playing ball tag in trees, digging tunnels, building tree houses, just plain climbing trees and burping contests. It’s the snails, pails and puppy dog tail thing I suspect. We are boys but you are more than welcome to come and play with us anytime. :cool:

But as far as your topic goes I believe that it is speaking of a man and am closer in line with TrustGzus' thoughts and perhaps Karaite's as well than any other's that I have read. And I also believe there may be reason to consider that this passage has absolutely nothing to do with satan. (I did tell you earlier about the stick and a hornets nest. ;) )


Good for you, you grubby, little boy with frogs in your pocket:lol: I gotta tell you that I am glad about that last sentence. I was going to bring it up, but see, you boys are just better "trouble-makers" then us girls:lol:;) I was reading from some respected commentators, and I read in a couple of them that they were of that mind as well, that they have "nothing" to do with satan. Now we may both get some flack but hey, share the burden right;)

One thing while it's on my mind (things slide off easy) is that I think sometimes too much credit is given to satan. I just wonder if God would mention him quite so much as some think:hmm:

Oregongrown
Oct 23rd 2013, 04:22 PM
The more I read, the more I'm inclined to believe that the cherub in Ezekiel 28 is not referring to satan, but that the King of Tyre:

"looked upon himself as a guardian angel to his people, so bright, so strong, so faithful, appointed to this office and qualified for it. Anointed kings should be to their subjects as anointed cherubim, that cover them with the wings of their power; and, when they are such, God will own them." (citation: http://www.biblegateway.com/resources/matthew-henry/Ezek.28.11-Ezek.28.19 (http://www.biblegateway.com/resources/matthew-henry/Ezek.28.11-Ezek.28.19))

Since I find this interesting reading, I thought I would go ahead and "open the can of worms" all the way, but please make a note that Old man started it :lol::pp.

I thought it was interesting to see what the Concise Encyclopedia said about the cherub, or what they are:

In Jewish, Christian, and Islamic literature, a celestial winged being with human, animal, or birdlike characteristics. They are included among the angel (http://www.merriam-webster.com/concise/angel)s, and in the Hebrew scriptures they are described as the throne bearers of God. In Christianity and Islam they are celestial attendants of God and praise him continually. Known as karubun in Islam, they repeat “Glory to God” ceaselessly, and they dwell in a section of heaven inaccessible to attacks by the Devil. In art they are often depicted as winged infants. See also seraph (http://www.merriam-webster.com/concise/seraph).

Also, as TG mentioned in one of their posts, there are different views on Ezekiel, and agreeing to disagree is a christian way to avoid personal conflict.

Oregongrown
Oct 23rd 2013, 04:31 PM
Yes indeed, there are many who claim to be scholars and they will correct all their bad teachings in the millenium just like it is written!


Eze 44:6 And thou shalt say to the rebellious, even to the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; O ye house of Israel, let it suffice you of all your abominations,

44:7 In that ye have brought into my sanctuary strangers, uncircumcised in heart, and uncircumcised in flesh, to be in my sanctuary, to pollute it, even my house, when ye offer my bread, the fat and the blood, and they have broken my covenant because of all your abominations.

44:8 And ye have not kept the charge of mine holy things: but ye have set keepers of my charge in my sanctuary for yourselves.

44:9 Thus saith the Lord GOD; No stranger, uncircumcised in heart, nor uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter into my sanctuary, of any stranger that is among the children of Israel.

44:10 And the Levites that are gone away far from me, when Israel went astray, which went astray away from me after their idols; they shall even bear their iniquity.


What did Yeshua/Jesus say was the cause of their confusion/lack of understanding?


Matt 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.


As it is written so it does come to pass every single day!

Matthew 13 is the place to start reading the Bible! If you don't understand the parable of the sower, how can you understand any parables in the whole Bible?


Matt 13:3 And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;

13:4 And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:

13:5 Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:

13:6 And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.

13:7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:

13:8 But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.

13:9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.


Bless you,
Love Fountain

This is a good lesson in not thinking we know all, or that we are scholarly! :hmm:

Old man
Oct 23rd 2013, 04:31 PM
Since I find this interesting reading, I thought I would go ahead and "open the can of worms" all the way, but please make a note that Old man started it :lol::pp.

I think that in political terms that's called "Throwing someone under the bus." :eek:

I will put together something later about how I am beginning to see this passage and everything will be alright as long as everyone remembers this rule "I am right and yall are wrong." ;) :D

Oregongrown
Oct 23rd 2013, 04:44 PM
I think that in political terms that's called "Throwing someone under the bus." :eek:

I will put together something later about how I am beginning to see this passage and everything will be alright as long as everyone remembers this rule "I am right and yall are wrong." ;) :D

fair'nuf podna:lol: and don't worry, it's only a mini-bus:pp:D

Oregongrown
Oct 23rd 2013, 04:56 PM
My KJV bible says this:

Ezekiel 28
1 The word of the Lord came again unto me, saying,
2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord God; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:

Notice in verse two it says the "prince" of Tyrus/Tyre? That's a different entity than the one we're about to look at now, a little later in Ezekiel:

11 Moreover the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,
12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord God; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.

Ezekiel might have been talking to the prince of Tyre, but God was talking to the king of Tyre. It's a parallelism in the bible, and they're all over the place. The king of Tyre is Satan, yes. The prince of Tyre may be a man, but the king of Tyre is described as "... the anointed cherub that covereth; ...".

Something in the text made me think that the prince was the king as well, but also, I was torn because something else made me think it was the King's son, so a prince of tyre.

I still don't think that the King of Tyre is satan, I think that the king had comparable thoughts about himself, thoughts similar to satans when he ended up getting 86'd, and the way he remains to this day. Satan roams about looking for people who think like the king so he can take advantage of the opportunity to recruit someone to his side.

Sure no one will label me scholarly, :lol: I mentioned in one of the threads that an excerpt from Matthew Henry's commentary on how the king saw himself, as an anointed protector of his kingdom.

Please understand (although it's probably apparent) that I don't "know" anything, I am simply wanting to know, and as always, my ultimate authority on Truth is the Only One that knows it;) God bless Ceegan, I certainly respect your knowledge/studying, even though I may not agree with it all, but I wouldn't blatantly disagree, because again, I don't know anything for sure. denise, a sister in Christ.

Noeb
Oct 25th 2013, 04:02 AM
Well, then a lot of scholars are confused too. While I mentioned that I have commentaries on my shelf that say the king in Ezekiel 28 is Satan, I have several other commentaries on my shelf that have the same idea I have. So maybe I'm confused, but I have a lot of good company. Including some others in this thread.There's a prince that is a man, and a king that is a cherub. Let me know when you're ready to deal with that.



While you say it's not difficult,

Ezekiel isn't straightforward prose. And while you think it might not be difficult, based on the different views that people who know the language think, it might not be as simple as you think.
I'm not the only one here that has said it's not difficult.



and I'm assuming that means your view isn't that difficult and should be obvious, many people that are fluent in Hebrew evidently don't agree with your view.No. I would say things Paul said is not difficult but some make it so just as Paul and Peter said, yet they know Greek. So what? Many that are fluent in Hebrew evidently don't agree with your view either. What's that prove? Nothing.



Oregon is right. Saying things like "You are confused" and "This isn't difficult" doesn't do much to make people listen to your case.You can't say people do not change their minds here then turn around and act like we can make someone listen to us. If someone wants the truth they'll listen, regardless of a method and what they were raised to think is PC.



That kind of language comes off as you talking down to someone.Maybe in your world but not mine.



Nothing wrong with agreeing to disagree, Noeb.No there's not, when it's possible, but it's not possible for a man to be a cherub, walk in Eden and the mountain of God, and be perfect.



Even Michael the archangel doesn't bring a reviling accusation against Satan but simply says "The Lord rebuke you" (Jude 9). Why would God expect his prophet to address Satan directly?Michael said, this is the Lords will just as Ezekiel did. Like Michael, Ezekiel was not speaking his own. How do you find this strange? He was speaking the will of God, which is how his will is done in earth (where man has dominion) as it is in spirit.

Noeb
Oct 25th 2013, 04:10 AM
The more I read, the more I'm inclined to believe that the cherub in Ezekiel 28 is not referring to satan, but that the King of Tyre:

"looked upon himself as a guardian angel to his people, so bright, so strong, so faithful, appointed to this office and qualified for it. Anointed kings should be to their subjects as anointed cherubim, that cover them with the wings of their power; and, when they are such, God will own them." (citation: http://www.biblegateway.com/resources/matthew-henry/Ezek.28.11-Ezek.28.19 (http://www.biblegateway.com/resources/matthew-henry/Ezek.28.11-Ezek.28.19))

Since I find this interesting reading, I thought I would go ahead and "open the can of worms" all the way, but please make a note that Old man started it :lol::pp.

I thought it was interesting to see what the Concise Encyclopedia said about the cherub, or what they are:

In Jewish, Christian, and Islamic literature, a celestial winged being with human, animal, or birdlike characteristics. They are included among the angel (http://www.merriam-webster.com/concise/angel)s, and in the Hebrew scriptures they are described as the throne bearers of God. In Christianity and Islam they are celestial attendants of God and praise him continually. Known as karubun in Islam, they repeat “Glory to God” ceaselessly, and they dwell in a section of heaven inaccessible to attacks by the Devil. In art they are often depicted as winged infants. See also seraph (http://www.merriam-webster.com/concise/seraph).

Also, as TG mentioned in one of their posts, there are different views on Ezekiel, and agreeing to disagree is a christian way to avoid personal conflict.The sin of pride and greed of a prince and a king as the reason for their falls and destruction is the focus.

TrustGzus
Oct 30th 2013, 01:03 AM
There's a prince that is a man, and a king that is a cherub. Let me know when you're ready to deal with that.

Let me know when you're ready to deal with that? Is this how brothers should talk to one another? [/quote]


No. I would say things Paul said is not difficult but some make it so just as Paul and Peter said, yet they know Greek. So what? Many that are fluent in Hebrew evidently don't agree with your view either. What's that prove? Nothing.

I think it proves it's not as simple as you'd like to think. People with greater minds than you and I disagree on this subject.


You can't say people do not change their minds here then turn around and act like we can make someone listen to us. If someone wants the truth they'll listen, regardless of a method and what they were raised to think is PC.

Proverbs 15:1 would disagree with you. Gentle replies are better than harsh replies. Talking down the way you do, and I'm not the only one who thinks you're doing this, hurts people's ability to listen.

If I talk down to you and I call you out in several posts, I doubt you'd appreciate it. I do not understand why you are acting the way you are in this thread.

Now I've considered your view. I have commentaries that hold it. I don't think it's the best view. I'm not going to debate you about it. I'm not interesting in making you agree with me. Plus, I won't debate a brother who talks in ways like your opening salvo of "let me know when you're ready to deal with this."

That's not how mature Christians discuss a difference of opinion.

Noeb
Oct 30th 2013, 01:20 AM
Let me know when you're ready to deal with that? Is this how brothers should talk to one another? Yes



I think it proves it's not as simple as you'd like to think.So it's not a cherub?



Proverbs 15:1 would disagree with you. Gentle replies are better than harsh replies. Talking down the way you do, and I'm not the only one who thinks you're doing this, hurts people's ability to listen.Then don't listen. My circle have no problems, but then, we're not the touchy feely pc type.

BrianW
Oct 30th 2013, 01:37 AM
Bible Forums is a place to edify and be edified and we welcome ALL of our brothers and sisters in Christ to participate and please remember to treat each other with love and respect. Sometimes love is hard. Sometimes love is direct and to the point. But respect is always respect.

And just to add emphasis

III. Conduct

As this is a Christian message board, conduct becoming a Christian is what is expected. We all come from different backgrounds and convictions and each member has their own different personalities and style of communicating through the written word. Remember first and foremost that we come together because of Christ and stand under Him and are accountable in all you say and do. We do not have to agree but allow anothers disagreement to drive you into the Word for answers. Nobody has all the answers, and even in debates with gusto and passion remember that we cannot find the bottom of the knowledge of God in the flesh. We are called into fellowship in order to share, uplift and grow in our shared faith. Name calling, belittling, cutting down anothers beliefs, sour attitude or general conduct not becoming a brother or sister in the faith will not be tolerated. Keep your words well salted, in love and centered in the Light.

Oregongrown
Oct 30th 2013, 01:39 AM
Yes


So it's not a cherub?


Then don't listen. My circle have no problems, but then, we're not the touchy feely pc type.

The only thing here that makes sense to me is that you tell someone not to listen, that, you are an authority on.

BrianW
Oct 30th 2013, 01:45 AM
I'm expecting everyone to read and respect the mod note above and to stop this back and forth tit for tat stuff. I also expect the disrespectful put downs to stop. If they don't stop with the notes then I'll stop them another way.

Oregongrown
Oct 30th 2013, 02:07 AM
10-4 Brian, my apologies for my part in it. denise, ysic

Noeb
Oct 30th 2013, 03:44 AM
If I talk down to you and I call you out in several posts, I doubt you'd appreciate it.I didn't, you. Sorry you see it that way. Happens to me all the time but I don't say anything. Peace.