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watchinginawe
Oct 19th 2013, 05:39 PM
Anyone have some thoughts on the following? I am a poor thread host, so I apologize in advance if I don't meet your expectations. As they say, that is just how I roll. :)

Down to business. It would seem to me that the KJV and the NASB translations differ significantly on 1 Thessalonians 2:6. It is actually more than that, probably getting to the manuscripts, but I would value your thoughts short of making this a conversation about the superiority of one translation versus the other.

KJV
1 Thessalonians 2:6 Nor of men sought we glory, neither of you, nor yet of others, when we might have been burdensome, as the apostles of Christ.

NASB
1 Thessalonians 2:6 nor did we seek glory from men, either from you or from others, even though as apostles of Christ we might have asserted our authority.

What is at issue is whether Paul is offering a comparison of himself to the apostles of Christ or identifying himself (or him and his entourage) as the apostles of Christ.

The letter announces Paul, Timothy, and Silas (Silvanus) as the writers, but it is clear that Paul is speaking corporately of their efforts but also, and perhaps primarily, personally. For example, in: 2:18 Wherefore we would have come unto you, even I Paul, once and again; but Satan hindered us.

In the verse under consideration (2:6), there appears two differing interpretations. The KJV most likely refers to Paul (or him and his entourage) as having not being materially burdensome to the Thessalonians. Paul emphasizes this in his example of ministry offered just a few verses later: 2:9 For ye remember, brethren, our labour and travail: for labouring night and day, because we would not be chargeable unto any of you, we preached unto you the gospel of God.

To me, Paul's highlighting of his example of ministry gives strength to considering verse 6 in the context of Paul (or him and his entourage) as not being materially burdensome. However, does verse 6 seek to compare his manner of ministry with the custom of that of the apostles of Christ? This would put Paul's ministry style in contrast to the custom of the apostles of Christ; thus a direct comparison of "we" and "them".

Lastly, if Paul is in fact referring to himself, Timothy, and Silas as the apostles of Christ, then what does that imply?

The NASB tidies the whole verse up, not leaving much to my imagination really, replacing the thought of "burden" entirely. We would still have to discern whether Paul references himself as among "the apostles of Christ" or whether he is referencing himself, Timothy, and Silas. In the case of the NASB, you would probably have to conclude that Paul is talking of his entourage, which would make Timothy and Silas apostles of Christ.

The problem with the NASB's point IMO is that it seems to convey some "right" or expectation that Paul had with them which went unclaimed. How is that possible without the comparison? What might have granted the apostles of Christ this authority without the explicit teaching or comparison of what the apostles of Christ might expect? I kind of think that Paul's point doesn't match up very well with how the NASB brings it across.

A lot of stuff to consider packed into that one little verse! What do you think?

Noeb
Oct 19th 2013, 06:02 PM
What is at issue is whether Paul is offering a comparison of himself to the apostles of Christ or identifying himself (or him and his entourage) as the apostles of Christ.
Paul is identifying himself as an apostle in both translations. I don't see a difference between the two.

jayne
Oct 19th 2013, 06:12 PM
KJV
1 Thessalonians 2:6 Nor of men sought we glory, neither of you, nor yet of others, when we might have been burdensome, as the apostles of Christ.

NASB
1 Thessalonians 2:6 nor did we seek glory from men, either from you or from others, even though as apostles of Christ we might have asserted our authority.

Brother, when I read these two verses, I see them as saying the exact same thing.

Here's my paraphrase of the KJV. ....and we didn't want to anyone to brag on us or praise us. Not you all or anyone else - even though we could have lorded our authority over you because we are apostles of Christ.

Here my paraphrase of the NASB. .....and we didn't want anyone to brag on us or praise us. Not you all or anyone else - even though because we are the apostles of Christ, we could have asserted our authority over you.

watchinginawe
Oct 19th 2013, 06:16 PM
Paul is identifying himself as an apostle in both translations. I don't see a difference between the two.

Obviously. However, does Paul draw a contrast of his apostleship to the apostleship of others, perhaps even "the apostles of Christ"? Or is he just stating he did not exercise his rights of apostleship?

watchinginawe
Oct 19th 2013, 06:18 PM
Brother, when I read these two verses, I see them as saying the exact same thing.

Here's my paraphrase of the KJV. ....and we didn't want to anyone to brag on us or praise us. Not you all or anyone else - even though we could have lorded our authority over you because we are apostles of Christ.

Here my paraphrase of the NASB. .....and we didn't want anyone to brag on us or praise us. Not you all or anyone else - even though because we are the apostles of Christ, we could have asserted our authority over you.


I am a reconciler too sis, but in this case they do say different things, even in the Greek. Or at least I think so, hoping someone more expert than myself comes along and clarifies.

Noeb
Oct 19th 2013, 06:36 PM
Obviously.Obviously? Then why did you ask "whether Paul is offering a comparison of himself" if it were obvious he wasn't?


However, does Paul draw a contrast of his apostleship to the apostleship of others, perhaps even "the apostles of Christ"?No he does not.


Or is he just stating he did not exercise his rights of apostleship?yes

watchinginawe
Oct 19th 2013, 06:49 PM
Obviously? Then why did you ask "whether Paul is offering a comparison of himself" if it were obvious he wasn't?


Noeb, it isn't a letter of introduction. Paul ministered among the Thessalonians as an apostle, so it wasn't a new claim. The discussion goes to how he ministered as an apostle, what his manner of apostleship was.

He most certainly draws a contrast else they are empty words. What I am wondering is if he was even drawing the contrast between himself and the other apostles of Christ (this wouldn't be unprecedented) or just the "office" of apostle as it were.

If I understand your reply, your opinion is the latter. Thanks.

Noeb
Oct 19th 2013, 07:02 PM
The discussion goes to how he ministered as an apostle, what his manner of apostleship was.

He most certainly draws a contrast else they are empty words.You are drawing the contrast, and w/o it the words are good.

Ta-An
Oct 19th 2013, 07:24 PM
David H Stern says it like this: As emissaries of Messiah....
..or as representatives of Christ... he did not demand nor have been a burden (as he rightfully could have depended on them) as it was the responsibility of believers to care for the ministers/representatives/workers of God

I hope this is what you are asking....

watchinginawe
Oct 19th 2013, 07:39 PM
David H Stern says it like this: As emissaries of Messiah....
..or as representatives of Christ... he did not demand nor have been a burden (as he rightfully could have depended on them) as it was the responsibility of believers to care for the ministers/representatives/workers of God

I hope this is what you are asking....

That is half of it Ta-An. Why doesn't the NASB bring it out like that? Where did the thought of "burden" go? Let's do this. Let's put the commentary you offered right below the NASB verse (this will help the discussion along perhaps):

1 Thessalonians 2:6 nor did we seek glory from men, either from you or from others, even though as apostles of Christ we might have asserted our authority.

David H Stern says it like this: As emissaries of Messiah....
..or as representatives of Christ... he did not demand nor have been a burden (as he rightfully could have depended on them) as it was the responsibility of believers to care for the ministers/representatives/workers of God

Do you see how the commentary no longer fits the verse?

There isn't much difference in the way I see it and the commentary you offer. Paul is saying that the expectation, as an apostle of Christ, was to be supported materially. We might suppose, however, that apostles of Christ are customarily supported materially, else why offer the comment?

Furthermore, we have a few problems about what "as the apostles of Christ" refers to. For example, from verse 5:

NASB
2:5 For neither at any time used we flattering words, as ye know, nor a cloke of covetousness; God is witness: 6 nor did we seek glory from men, either from you or from others, even though as apostles of Christ we might have asserted our authority. We would not confer that the authority of the office of apostleship would have given the right to use flattering words, a cloke of covetousness, or glory from men. So the commentary you offered, supposing a right of apostleship, loses all meaning when applied to how the NASB puts the verse. "Asserted" in the above would have to mean "abused" and not a due entitlement.

KJV
5 For neither at any time used we flattering words, as ye know, nor a cloke of covetousness; God is witness: 6 Nor of men sought we glory, neither of you, nor yet of others, when we might have been burdensome, as the apostles of Christ. Now I would say that "as the apostles of Christ" pertains to being burdensome, as in material support; and not in claiming a right to use flattering words, a cloke of covetousness, or to seek personal glory.

Ta-An
Oct 19th 2013, 07:48 PM
Stern actually only calls them "emissaries of Messiah"

The rest are my words :blush:

I suppose the translators just did their own 'thing' ?? Or to their understanding??

watchinginawe
Oct 19th 2013, 07:51 PM
Stern actually only calls them "emissaries of Messiah"

The rest are my words :blush:

I suppose the translators just did their own 'thing' ?? Or to their understanding??

Your getting good Ta An! Your thoughts aren't far from many commentators though, they are representative when commenting from the KJV.

watchinginawe
Oct 19th 2013, 07:55 PM
Stern actually only calls them "emissaries of Messiah"


I just realized that I didn't consider this part of your offering. Sure, we could take it that way, i.e. emissaries versus apostles, but Paul was always specific about Apostleship in my opinion. He either considered Silas and Timothy full Apostles of Christ, referencing only himself, or he is referencing the eleven (IMO).

Thanks!