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SavedByGraceByFait
Oct 21st 2013, 10:25 PM
The Holy Bible is quite clear that works of any kind do not save. In fact, the Holy Bible emphatically states that if someone is trying to earn salvation by works or merit, that person will not get saved till they repent (change their mind) and cease trying to earn salvation. Works done for salvation mean no salvation. They mock Christ’s sacrifice on the cross.

Paul is the apostle of the Gentiles, and it is the will of Jesus Christ that the Gentiles are to hear the gospel from Paul’s letters.

Romans 11:13
For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

Romans 15:16
That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.

2 Timothy 4:17
Notwithstanding the Lord stood with me, and strengthened me; that by me the preaching might be fully known, and that all the Gentiles might hear: and I was delivered out of the mouth of the lion.

Romans 2:16
In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

When asked what is required for salvation here is what Paul and Silas said.

Acts 16:30-31
30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

When asked “what must I do to be saved” Paul only mentions “believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved.” He never mentions works, so it is not required.

In the following passages Paul clearly states that trying to do works for salvation means no salvation.

Romans 4:5
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

The following passage says that we are saved by grace through faith and not works.

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

The following passage says if it is works it is no more grace. But we are only saved by grace. Therefore, works means no salvation at all.

Romans 11:6
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Here are more passages from Paul.

Titus 1:16
They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

Titus 3:5
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Hebrews 4:10
For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

Hebrews 6:1
Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

So there is no passage from Paul that says works are required for salvation. There are a number that say works mean no salvation. There are many passages where Paul says that faith or belief in Jesus Christ is salvation, and since it is the only thing mentioned it must be through faith alone and not works. Here are just a few.

Romans 4:3
For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Galatians 3:6
Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

Romans 1:17
For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Galatians 3:11
But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

Hebrews 10:38
Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Romans 3:22-26
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Christ Jesus the Lord shows that there is only one thing needed for salvation. They wanted to know the works (plural), that is, the entire list. Jesus listed the only thing allowed faith. Any other work for salvation is not of God.

John 6:28-29
28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

In the next passage Jesus Christ says that to be saved you only need to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. It works were required then the statement is false. It would have said: he that believes on me and does good works. Since it does not mention works, it has to be by belief alone. Furthermore, if a person does not believe what Jesus says, then they have not believed on the Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, according to Jesus Christ, a person trusting in works or merit for salvation is not saved. Thus John 6:47 is a faith alone statement which excludes works. Furthermore it is an eternal security statement (once saved always saved) since to have everlasting life means you could never be damned, unless it would say might have everlasting life. Thus Jesus declares that works are not needed to maintain salvation either. The double verily makes this simple to understand statement emphatic.

John 6:47
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

There are many passages (probably over 200) where only faith or belief in Jesus Christ is what saves. The same logic above applies to each of these statements.

John 3:14-18
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 11:25-26
25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

John 10:28-30
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one.

The following passage shows that good works come after salvation (as a result of salvation) and not for salvation. Created in Christ Jesus means already saved. Unto good works shows that good works come after salvation (by God working in you). Notice it also says, “should” not must. So they are not required for salvation or to maintain salvation.

Ephesians 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

The above sampling absolutely proves that works are not needed for salvation. They also prove that eternal security (once saved always saved) is absolutely true. They are emphatic and quite clear. Since the Holy Bible has no contradictions, anything that someone thinks shows otherwise is just a mistaken interpretation. Many people assume a passage is talking about salvation/damnation when it is not. This is usually done by taking the verse out of context, assuming meanings of words with false definitions and doctrines, ignoring what salvation really means, or by not rightly dividing the word of truth (see 2 Timothy 2:15) They may be confusing statements made to a different people, for a different time, about a different subject. They may even be using a new Bible version with a corrupt reading.

Boo
Oct 22nd 2013, 09:09 AM
We are so afraid of the word "works" that we absolutely refuse to let ourselves be accused of doing any. After all, someone might say that we are depending on our works to save us...........

Totally neglecting the fact that works are commanded of us.

SavedByGraceByFait
Oct 22nd 2013, 10:56 AM
We are so afraid of the word "works" that we absolutely refuse to let ourselves be accused of doing any. After all, someone might say that we are depending on our works to save us...........

Totally neglecting the fact that works are commanded of us.

But that is what you are saying. But depending on works FOR salvation is against the word of God.

Paul is the apostle of the Gentiles. Paul got the gospel of salvation from Jesus Christ.

Paul wrote that salvation is not of works.

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Paul went a step further and denounced works FOR salvation.

Romans 4:5
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Now God does want us to do good works. Not to earn salvation or to maintain salvation, but as a result of salvation. It is the Holy Spirit that will cause those good works in the already saved.

jayne
Oct 22nd 2013, 01:39 PM
But that is what you are saying. But depending on works FOR salvation is against the word of God.

Paul is the apostle of the Gentiles. Paul got the gospel of salvation from Jesus Christ.

Paul wrote that salvation is not of works.

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Paul went a step further and denounced works FOR salvation.

Romans 4:5
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Now God does want us to do good works. Not to earn salvation or to maintain salvation, but as a result of salvation. It is the Holy Spirit that will cause those good works in the already saved.

No, you misread Boo.

He didn't say works saved us. He said works were commanded of us (us who? us Christians). You said it, too, in your quote from Ephesians.

Boo is saying that while many Christians enjoy the grace of God, many ignore the work He has prepared for us to do.

SavedByGraceByFait
Oct 22nd 2013, 04:37 PM
No, you misread Boo.

He didn't say works saved us. He said works were commanded of us (us who? us Christians). You said it, too, in your quote from Ephesians.

Boo is saying that while many Christians enjoy the grace of God, many ignore the work He has prepared for us to do.

But never works FOR salvation which is the topic.

episkopos
Oct 22nd 2013, 04:50 PM
But never works FOR salvation which is the topic.


We are saved by faith as in the doing of what pleases God. If we believe then we will do. We will all be judged by our works not by our religious opinions.

SavedByGraceByFait
Oct 22nd 2013, 05:54 PM
We are saved by faith as in the doing of what pleases God. If we believe then we will do. We will all be judged by our works not by our religious opinions.

The word of God disagrees with you.

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

episkopos
Oct 22nd 2013, 07:23 PM
The word of God disagrees with you.

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.


Eph_2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.


Do you avoid doing anything good in order to keep your belief scheme going?

SavedByGraceByFait
Oct 22nd 2013, 08:23 PM
Eph_2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.


Do you avoid doing anything good in order to keep your belief scheme going?

Now you are being a little bit on the silly side.
Good works come after salvation.
They are never FOR salvation or to maintain salvation, but after salvation as a result of salvation. The Holy Spirit works within the saved to produce good works.

As to Ephesians 2:10
"created in Christ Jesus" - that means already saved forever
"unto good works" ... "should walk" - God wants us to do good works. Note it says should not must. So it is not required.

As to whether I do good works, how would you know what I do as a result of my salvation.

Bro Berryl
Oct 22nd 2013, 08:30 PM
Works of merit will never put a person in right standing with God, I think we all agree on that. This verse in Romans 9 is an example of what that means.

Romans 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
Romans 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

Question: If it were possible for a Israelite to follow every precept of the Law of Moses perfectly would they have righteousness with God? Yes...Romans 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

Question: If a Israelite followed every precept of the Law of Moses but messed up just one thing would he have righteousness with God? No.....James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.


Question: If a Israelite followed the Law of Moses but from time to time sinned, repented and offered the necessary sacrifice looking for the day when the Messiah would come to give them forgiveness of sins would they be able to be righteous with God? Yes, because they had faith in Jesus and not the Law of Moses.

Romans 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Romans 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

The debate over faith verses works can be easily solved if we understand that we are expected to do works, but not works alone. We are expected to have faith to go along with our works. Just as Israel that kept the Law did it by faith in He who would come to free them from the curse, we also do works of righteousness that are commanded by Jesus believing that His blood cleanses us from our sins.

Acts 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

episkopos
Oct 23rd 2013, 01:29 AM
Works of merit will never put a person in right standing with God, I think we all agree on that. This verse in Romans 9 is an example of what that means.

Romans 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
Romans 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

Question: If it were possible for a Israelite to follow every precept of the Law of Moses perfectly would they have righteousness with God? Yes...Romans 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

Question: If a Israelite followed every precept of the Law of Moses but messed up just one thing would he have righteousness with God? No.....James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.


Question: If a Israelite followed the Law of Moses but from time to time sinned, repented and offered the necessary sacrifice looking for the day when the Messiah would come to give them forgiveness of sins would they be able to be righteous with God? Yes, because they had faith in Jesus and not the Law of Moses.

Romans 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Romans 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

The debate over faith verses works can be easily solved if we understand that we are expected to do works, but not works alone. We are expected to have faith to go along with our works. Just as Israel that kept the Law did it by faith in He who would come to free them from the curse, we also do works of righteousness that are commanded by Jesus believing that His blood cleanses us from our sins.

Acts 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

There is contradiction in your post. Look at the last verse and compare that to your first statement. Fearing God and doing what is right indeed causes acceptance with God.

God is not against doing what is right. What He is against is trying to justify oneself by what one does.

The OP is very confused and cannot tell the difference between works of the law found in Judaism...and works of righteousness.

Boo
Oct 23rd 2013, 09:58 AM
There is contradiction in your post. Look at the last verse and compare that to your first statement. Fearing God and doing what is right indeed causes acceptance with God.

God is not against doing what is right. What He is against is trying to justify oneself by what one does.

The OP is very confused and cannot tell the difference between works of the law found in Judaism...and works of righteousness.

And that is why I said that we are so afraid of that word "work." Many arguments start because of that word.

SavedByGraceByFait
Oct 23rd 2013, 10:45 AM
And that is why I said that we are so afraid of that word "work." Many arguments start because of that word.

The issue is when to mention works.

In a discussion of salvation, it must be pointed out that works FOR salvation or to maintain "salvation" is another gospel. So it should be clearly pointed out that works are not needed for salvation.

In a discussion of what the saved should do after salvation, good works should be talked about.

mailmandan
Oct 23rd 2013, 11:51 AM
The OP is very confused and cannot tell the difference between works of the law found in Judaism...and works of righteousness.

Paul said that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ.. (Galatians 2:16) But he also said..

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us.. (Titus 3:5)

Are you trying to say that we are NOT saved by works of the law but we ARE saved by works of righteousness?

episkopos
Oct 23rd 2013, 01:30 PM
Paul said that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ.. (Galatians 2:16) But he also said..

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us.. (Titus 3:5)

Are you trying to say that we are NOT saved by works of the law but we ARE saved by works of righteousness?

We cannot justify ourselves based on what we have done. But God justifies the righteous...

ze 33:12 Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth.
Eze 33:13 When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.
Eze 33:14 Again, when I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; if he turn from his sin, and do that which is lawful and right;
Eze 33:15 If the wicked restore the pledge, give again that he had robbed, walk in the statutes of life, without committing iniquity; he shall surely live, he shall not die.
Eze 33:16 None of his sins that he hath committed shall be mentioned unto him: he hath done that which is lawful and right; he shall surely live.
Eze 33:17 Yet the children of thy people say, The way of the Lord is not equal: but as for them, their way is not equal.
Eze 33:18 When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby.
Eze 33:19 But if the wicked turn from his wickedness, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall live thereby.
Eze 33:20 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. O ye house of Israel, I will judge you every one after his ways.

episkopos
Oct 23rd 2013, 01:40 PM
The issue is when to mention works.

In a discussion of salvation, it must be pointed out that works FOR salvation or to maintain "salvation" is another gospel. So it should be clearly pointed out that works are not needed for salvation.

In a discussion of what the saved should do after salvation, good works should be talked about.

We enter into God's miraculous provision of victory over sin (grace) by faith. Grace is for today. At the end of lives we will all be judged by our works...what we have done with what we have been given.

SavedByGraceByFait
Oct 23rd 2013, 02:24 PM
We enter into God's miraculous provision of victory over sin (grace) by faith. Grace is for today. At the end of lives we will all be judged by our works...what we have done with what we have been given.

You should give scripture.

The saved can never have condemnation. Salvation is just ny faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and guaranteed forever.

John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

John 11:25-27
25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.

John 3:14-18
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

episkopos
Oct 23rd 2013, 02:28 PM
You should give scripture.

Do you not know the bible well enough that you don't recognize the biblical doctrine?


The saved can never have condemnation. Salvation is just ny faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and guaranteed forever.



Wrong! We can be saved from iniquity today and return to our filth tomorrow...

2Pe_2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

SavedByGraceByFait
Oct 23rd 2013, 03:25 PM
Do you not know the bible well enough that you don't recognize the biblical doctrine?





Wrong! We can be saved from iniquity today and return to our filth tomorrow...

2Pe_2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.


You have to show that 2 Peter 2:22 is referring to saved people who have now lost their salvation.
So you have 0 scripture to prove your point.

Bro Berryl
Oct 23rd 2013, 05:01 PM
There is contradiction in your post. Look at the last verse and compare that to your first statement. Fearing God and doing what is right indeed causes acceptance with God.

God is not against doing what is right. What He is against is trying to justify oneself by what one does.

The OP is very confused and cannot tell the difference between works of the law found in Judaism...and works of righteousness.

Episkopos seems to think this a contradiction in the post that I wrote:

Works of merit will never put a person in right standing with God, I think we all agree on that. This verse in Romans 9 is an example of what that means.

Acts 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Obviously he didn't read it clearly, I said in my post that no one is saved by faith alone, no one is saved by works alone. My first statement is describing a person who seeks salvation by works alone (works of merit, no faith). Acts 10 states the proper way to receive salvation (fear God and work righteousness).

Perhaps Episkopos was thrown off by the words fear God. Surely it doesn't mean to be afraid of God but rather show God the proper respect he deserves as being the giver and sustainer of life. I don't know about you but if a person shows that kind of respect he has faith in God.

episkopos
Oct 23rd 2013, 05:04 PM
You have to show that 2 Peter 2:22 is referring to saved people who have now lost their salvation.
So you have 0 scripture to prove your point.

That verse talks of people RETURNING to their vomit...you can't return to it if you never left it.

ISRAEL
Oct 23rd 2013, 05:05 PM
salvation is by faith and works but our works can never measure up to God's salvation

Blesses is he that doeth righteousness at all times
yet our righteousness is as filthy rags in the eyes of the Lord

SavedByGraceByFait
Oct 23rd 2013, 05:18 PM
salvation is by faith and works but our works can never measure up to God's salvation

Blesses is he that doeth righteousness at all times
yet our righteousness is as filthy rags in the eyes of the Lord

Paul is the apostle of the Gentiles (Romans 11:13) chosen by Jesus Christ.
Paul has the gospel of salvation, by direct revelation of Jesus Christ (Galatians 1:11-12)
The Gentiles are to hear the gospel of salvation from Paul as ordained by Jesus Christ (Romans 15:16. 2 Timothy 4:17)

Paul said it not by works.

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Bro Berryl
Oct 23rd 2013, 05:35 PM
I have a question for those that are responding to this thread:

Question: How can we tell when the bible is speaking about works of the Law, from when the bible is talking about works of righteousness?

It seems to me much of the confusion in this thread stems from not being able to distinguish between the two.

episkopos
Oct 23rd 2013, 05:47 PM
I have a question for those that are responding to this thread:

Question: How can we tell when the bible is speaking about works of the Law, from when the bible is talking about works of righteousness?

It seems to me much of the confusion in this thread stems from not being able to distinguish between the two.

Paul is speaking of defending the walk that is by faith in the face of the strong Jewish influence there. Saved by works of the law is (was) the pursuit of the Judaizers. The Galatians were also plagued with this influence. So then we see that Christianity does not need back-up from Judaism and it's laws. Christianity is a stand alone faith. We need not be physically circumcised or keep a physical sabbath...we have entered in to God's provision in the Spirit by faith. So we keep a spiritual sabbath rest and a heart circumcision.... which is by faith and not human works.

Bro Berryl
Oct 23rd 2013, 06:06 PM
Paul is speaking of defending the walk that is by faith in the face of the strong Jewish influence there. Saved by works of the law is (was) the pursuit of the Judaizers. The Galatians were also plagued with this influence. So then we see that Christianity does not need back-up from Judaism and it's laws. Christianity is a stand alone faith. We need not be physically circumcised or keep a physical sabbath...we have entered in to God's provision in the Spirit by faith. So we keep a spiritual sabbath rest and a heart circumcision.... which is by faith and not human works.

I agree with that Christianity doesn't need back-up from Judaism, but when we read the word works in verses like the one I posted from Acts 10;

Acts 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

or this one in Ephesians;

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

How are we to know if the writer is talking about works of the Law of Moses or different works?

The works you described (sabbath, circumcision) are works of the Law of Moses, are there any other works under the New Covenant that perhaps we should be adding to our faith that are not part of the Law of Moses?

ISRAEL
Oct 23rd 2013, 06:08 PM
Can someone go to hell not because of works ?

SavedByGraceByFait
Oct 23rd 2013, 06:11 PM
Can someone go to hell not because of works ?

Sure. If a person who does not trust in Jesus Christ and His shed blood for their salvation, they pay for their sins in hell.

Bro Berryl
Oct 23rd 2013, 06:31 PM
The position you take on salvation is posted in the title of your thread:

Salvation is not by works. Works FOR salvation prevent salvation.

Perhaps you should have said "works ALONE for salvation prevent salvation.

I have been posting that I believe the bible says there are more than one kind of works. Works of the Law is one but the bible also says there are works of God;

John 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

I would go as far as to say that repentance and baptism are works of God as well, they are done by faith and are needed for salvation.

After one is saved the bible says we were are to do good works

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Bandit
Oct 23rd 2013, 07:01 PM
Hello SBGBF,

This thread (and your other threads in this folder) are not appropriate for this folder. Please start such doctrinal debate threads in the 'Bible Chat' folder. I would have PMed you, but you have not enabled that. These threads will probably get moved over to Bible Chat. Also, there is no need to start 3 essentially identical threads on the same topic; one should be sufficient.

Bandit

mailmandan
Oct 23rd 2013, 09:24 PM
We cannot justify ourselves based on what we have done. But God justifies the righteous...

YES or NO:

Are you trying to say that we are NOT saved by works of the law but we ARE saved by works of righteousness?


Eze 33:13 When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.

If he trusts in his OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS. This is the heart of the matter here. This is describing a righteousness which is by the law rather than that which is by faith. The New Testament states in Romans 10:3-4 - "For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believes."

Boo
Oct 24th 2013, 09:22 AM
Show me a person who claims to follow Jesus but does no good works, and I will show you a person who only thinks that he or she is a follower.

Show me a person "who returns to his vomit" and I will show you a person who does not follow Jesus.

Our actions tell more about our faith than our mouths do.

SavedByGraceByFait
Oct 24th 2013, 10:14 AM
Show me a person who claims to follow Jesus but does no good works, and I will show you a person who only thinks that he or she is a follower.

Show me a person "who returns to his vomit" and I will show you a person who does not follow Jesus.

Our actions tell more about our faith than our mouths do.

But you are just using your own words and not the word of God.

However Paul wrote:

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

mailmandan
Oct 24th 2013, 10:52 AM
Show me a person who claims to follow Jesus but does no good works, and I will show you a person who only thinks that he or she is a follower.

Show me a person "who returns to his vomit" and I will show you a person who does not follow Jesus.

Our actions tell more about our faith than our mouths do.

In James 2:14, we read of one who "says (or claims) he has faith" but has no works. This is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith. To quote a phrase that James could have coined, "the absence of evidence could be construed as evidence of absence."

Man is saved through faith and not by works; yet genuine faith is substantiated and confirmed by good works. The word "alone" in regards to salvation through faith in "Christ alone" conveys the message that Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not on the merits of our works. It is by faith IN CHRIST alone (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5;1); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). Faith is the root and works are the fruit of our salvation. No fruit would demonstrate no root.

sooninzion
Oct 24th 2013, 12:05 PM
Our actions tell more about our faith than our mouths do.

I would think and I believe; 'Out of the fullness of the heart the mouth speaks (Luke 6:45)' and therefore it is more important for a believer 'what he speaks' rather than 'what he does for deeds'.

Because 'faith' varies in power of degree between people; a believer's actions will be inversely proportional to the amount of faith he or she has. This is why because the definition of 'commanded work' for a child of God is this:-

John 6:29, "The Work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent. This work is a believer's mission.

Sorry Boo.. I used ur quote because the majority of people I know believe what you have written. I have nothing against you.

BrianW
Oct 24th 2013, 02:55 PM
Mod Note: Thread moved to Bible Chat.

Neanias
Oct 24th 2013, 04:43 PM
Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, 12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; 13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; 14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

The purpose of the grace of God is revealed here: 'teaching us (...) we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world', being a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

If grace has not done what it was meant to in us, we have misunderstood and misused grace as a provision for sin. Christ appeared that he might take away our sins, and destroy the works of the devil.

If we do not bear the good fruit he has equipped us to, we are good only to be burnt and thrown away.

Neanias
Oct 24th 2013, 04:52 PM
We see that it is true that people twist Paul's words to their own destruction.

Galatians 2:16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

The above, for example, is so often taken out of context. Paul says this in the context of Peter not eating with Gentiles. He is speaking of the old law, 'touch not, eat not'. But Christ himself told the rich young ruler, 'follow the commands' and he went on to say that any who teach differently, and teach to not do the least of these (10) commandments will be the least in the kingdom of heaven. Christ has come to fulfill the law and the prophets. The common righteousness of obedience has not disappeared. Rather now Christ has made a more perfect way: we have his provision of life that we might not only do what is right but walk in his holiness and power and do the very works of the Father.

In Hebrews, the purpose of the new covenant is made clear.

Heb. 7: 11 Therefore, if perfection were through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need was there that another priest should rise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be called according to the order of Aaron? (...)
18 For on the one hand there is an annulling of the former commandment because of its weakness and unprofitableness, 19 for the law made nothing perfect; on the other hand, there is the bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God.

The purpose of the new covenant is not to make our lives easier and relieve us from obedience as many disobedient men and liars proclaim, who are reprobate. But it is to bring a people unto perfection who do here on earth the will of the Father, a new priesthood according to the power of endless life in Christ Jesus, able to make us stand holy and blameless before him in truth, and walk as he walked, wholly pleasing to the Father.

keck553
Oct 24th 2013, 06:15 PM
The word of God disagrees with you.

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

I think you need to read "Faith" in the Bible is a verb, not a noun. This may be where you are going off the rails...

SavedByGraceByFait
Oct 24th 2013, 07:05 PM
I think you need to read "Faith" in the Bible is a verb, not a noun. This may be where you are going off the rails...

Believe is also a verb.

John 6:47
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

SavedByGraceByFait
Oct 24th 2013, 07:07 PM
We see that it is true that people twist Paul's words to their own destruction.

Galatians 2:16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

The above, for example, is so often taken out of context. Paul says this in the context of Peter not eating with Gentiles. He is speaking of the old law, 'touch not, eat not'. But Christ himself told the rich young ruler, 'follow the commands' and he went on to say that any who teach differently, and teach to not do the least of these (10) commandments will be the least in the kingdom of heaven. Christ has come to fulfill the law and the prophets. The common righteousness of obedience has not disappeared. Rather now Christ has made a more perfect way: we have his provision of life that we might not only do what is right but walk in his holiness and power and do the very works of the Father.

In Hebrews, the purpose of the new covenant is made clear.

Heb. 7: 11 Therefore, if perfection were through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need was there that another priest should rise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be called according to the order of Aaron? (...)
18 For on the one hand there is an annulling of the former commandment because of its weakness and unprofitableness, 19 for the law made nothing perfect; on the other hand, there is the bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God.

The purpose of the new covenant is not to make our lives easier and relieve us from obedience as many disobedient men and liars proclaim, who are reprobate. But it is to bring a people unto perfection who do here on earth the will of the Father, a new priesthood according to the power of endless life in Christ Jesus, able to make us stand holy and blameless before him in truth, and walk as he walked, wholly pleasing to the Father.

Nobody is saved by keeping the commandments at all.

Romans 3:19-26
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

SavedByGraceByFait
Oct 24th 2013, 07:09 PM
Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, 12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; 13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; 14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

The purpose of the grace of God is revealed here: 'teaching us (...) we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world', being a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

If grace has not done what it was meant to in us, we have misunderstood and misused grace as a provision for sin. Christ appeared that he might take away our sins, and destroy the works of the devil.

If we do not bear the good fruit he has equipped us to, we are good only to be burnt and thrown away.

But no one is saved by any works. Not by works of righteousness. If works of righteousness cannot save, would works of unrighteousness help?

Titus 3:5
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

episkopos
Oct 24th 2013, 07:22 PM
But no one is saved by any works. Not by works of righteousness. If works of righteousness cannot save, would works of unrighteousness help?

Titus 3:5
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

We don't upgrade our walks to the holiness of God by our efforts but simply by faith....but the whole point of receiving God's power is in order to work righteousness.

Neanias
Oct 24th 2013, 07:36 PM
But no one is saved by any works. Not by works of righteousness. If works of righteousness cannot save, would works of unrighteousness help?

Titus 3:5
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Instead of taking one verse out of Titus, and twisting it to mean what we want it to mean, let's take all of it.

It isn't by works of righteousness that he saved us. regenerated us, yes. But for what purpose did he do this?

5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. 8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men.

It is not by any righteousness of our own that we enter, but by his mercy. But this is not the end, it is the beginning of a walk. We are called then to do the works of the Father and be obedient children.

SavedByGraceByFait
Oct 24th 2013, 07:57 PM
Instead of taking one verse out of Titus, and twisting it to mean what we want it to mean, let's take all of it.

It isn't by works of righteousness that he saved us. regenerated us, yes. But for what purpose did he do this?

5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. 8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men.

It is not by any righteousness of our own that we enter, but by his mercy. But this is not the end, it is the beginning of a walk. We are called then to do the works of the Father and be obedient children.

So we are in absolute agreement that no one is saved by works.
Not by works of righteousness.

Salvation is a once time event. Once saved always saved is true. So works are not needed to maintain salvation either.

keck553
Oct 24th 2013, 08:07 PM
Believe is also a verb.

John 6:47
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

Good, then you agree that faith and belief as a verb calls you action - to repent (STOP SINNING and to DO righteous acts). Commonly known as good works.\

You've just defeated your own arguement.

episkopos
Oct 24th 2013, 08:07 PM
So we are in absolute agreement that no one is saved by works.
Not by works of righteousness.

Salvation is a once time event. Once saved always saved is true. So works are not needed to maintain salvation either.

Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

TBM 11
Oct 24th 2013, 08:08 PM
This is a topic that will not be decided on a forum. It has to be decided in your heart through studying and understanding of scripture. I have spent the last 6 months trying to determine the truth about this very topic. I have been like many here thinking that my righteousness had something to do with my salvation. Guess what, IT DOES! The righteousness of GOD that is IMPUTED to me through FAITH in Him! 2Cor. 5:21 Guess what else, my SIN is NOT imputed! Romans 4:8

Come on folks, do some digging. Not just throwing out a scripture or two that supports your position. Check the context. I have done this and there is no way you can do it and come to any other conclusion than we are saved through faith alone. What did Jesus tell the woman that wiped His feet with her tears and hair, then anointed His feet with oil? "And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace." Luke 7:50.

I have been in these discussions many times over the last few months, the understanding of this is what brought me back to fellowship with God at the age of 53! My obedience is out of love not fear! Think about this if you don't agree with faith alone, what you are saying is that the EVIDENCE of faith is part of your salvation. Sorry, not trying to be smart with you and you don't know me from Adam, but if you believe this you are wrong and need to STUDY, not READ your bible. (I use caps to emphasize words, not shouting)

keck553
Oct 24th 2013, 08:14 PM
TMB11, the faith of Abraham led him to obey God's commandments (Genesis 26:5. Hebrews 11:8). Do you have the faith of Abraham? Do you love Jesus?

Then obey His commandments. Thats a "do" command, not a "thinK" command. Those works are by His power, but we still do them, or we deny His power.

episkopos
Oct 24th 2013, 08:15 PM
This is a topic that will not be decided on a forum. It has to be decided in your heart through studying and understanding of scripture. I have spent the last 6 months trying to determine the truth about this very topic. I have been like many here thinking that my righteousness had something to do with my salvation. Guess what, IT DOES! The righteousness of GOD that is IMPUTED to me through FAITH in Him! 2Cor. 5:21 Guess what else, my SIN is NOT imputed! Romans 4:8

Come on folks, do some digging. Not just throwing out a scripture or two that supports your position. Check the context. I have done this and there is no way you can do it and come to any other conclusion than we are saved through faith alone. What did Jesus tell the woman that wiped His feet with her tears and hair, then anointed His feet with oil? "And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace." Luke 7:50.

I have been in these discussions many times over the last few months, the understanding of this is what brought me back to fellowship with God at the age of 53! My obedience is out of love not fear! Think about this if you don't agree with faith alone, what you are saying is that the EVIDENCE of faith is part of your salvation. Sorry, not trying to be smart with you and you don't know me from Adam, but if you believe this you are wrong and need to STUDY, not READ your bible. (I use caps to emphasize words, not shouting)



Col 3:24 Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ.
Col 3:25 But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.

TBM 11
Oct 24th 2013, 08:21 PM
Folks, I am solid on this. I have searched and studied all scripture relating to it that I know of because I wanted to be sure of what I believed. You can throw what ever scriptures "religion" has taught you. I know what the bible says on this. It's like I stated before, this will not be decided in a forum, you got to study and seek the Truth for yourself. If you seek the Truth, the Holy Spirit will show you. Blessings

keck553
Oct 24th 2013, 08:50 PM
Folks, I am solid on this. I have searched and studied all scripture relating to it that I know of because I wanted to be sure of what I believed. You can throw what ever scriptures "religion" has taught you. I know what the bible says on this. It's like I stated before, this will not be decided in a forum, you got to study and seek the Truth for yourself. If you seek the Truth, the Holy Spirit will show you. Blessings

And I am solid on this too. I have searched and studied all scrioture relating to it that I know of because I wanted to be sure of what I believed. You can throw whatever scriptures "religion" has taught you. I know what the Bible says on this. You need to study and seek the truth for yourself. If you seek the truth, the Holy Spirit will show you. Blessings.

Here's an interesting observation. The Holy Spirit you claim dwells in you I claim dwells in me, and all on this thread will make the same assertion, nullifying your "Holy Spirit" and "study and seek" leverage.


Please answer this -
"Husbands, love your wives..."

Is this a feeling, a thought or a work? Please expound on your answer.

Aviyah
Oct 24th 2013, 08:52 PM
This is a topic that will not be decided on a forum. It has to be decided in your heart through studying and understanding of scripture. I have spent the last 6 months trying to determine the truth about this very topic. I have been like many here thinking that my righteousness had something to do with my salvation. Guess what, IT DOES! The righteousness of GOD that is IMPUTED to me through FAITH in Him! 2Cor. 5:21 Guess what else, my SIN is NOT imputed! Romans 4:8

Totally agree. :yes:

TBM 11
Oct 24th 2013, 08:56 PM
Keck553 said "Back to square one I see....... " Exactly why I said it would not be decided on a forum.

keck553
Oct 24th 2013, 09:00 PM
Keck553 said "Back to square one I see....... " Exactly why I said it would not be decided on a forum.

Maybe not decided here, but it certainly can be followed up on with study and prayer, and God will reveal His truth. So maybe not so unprofitable as you suggest.

But can you address my question about "husbands, love your wives..." please?

BrianW
Oct 24th 2013, 09:03 PM
I used to jumped into these threads with both feet and go to it with a gusto. After a few years and many, many, many threads on OSAS vs NOSAS and faith/works I'm feeling a bit burned out.

I see no problem with these threads so please keep 'em coming and keep sharpening iron with iron. I do sometimes wish people would remember that we have a search function and no hard and fast rules about bumping old threads though.

TBM 11
Oct 24th 2013, 09:11 PM
Keck, I am just like BrianW. I am burnt out on this. I am not debating it, just simply saying what I believe, and will always believe. I have already spent the last 6 months or more on it. If you believe different that is fine.

keck553
Oct 24th 2013, 09:37 PM
Keck, I am just like BrianW. I am burnt out on this. I am not debating it, just simply saying what I believe, and will always believe. I have already spent the last 6 months or more on it. If you believe different that is fine.

I think we both believe the same thing. I'm just trying to reconcile any perceived differences the best I know how.

Boo
Oct 25th 2013, 09:28 AM
I sit in a church every week full of people who fail to do what Jesus commissioned us to do. They believe that they are saved, so they see no need to do good works. They come to church, sit through a sermon, and go home "regenerated" all over again. Yep, saved by church attendance.

I wonder what James would say about such behavior? What would Jesus say?

While we are asking the Holy Spirit to tell us if we should be doing as Jesus commanded, perhaps we should reflect on what He commanded.

Why is it so important to anyone to see just how little one can do and still get to heaven? Are we trying to get the cheapest rate to the Kingdom?

Is my faith so weak that I refuse to share it with anyone? Is my love of God less that "with all my heart, mind, and soul?" Is my love of my neighbor so shallow that I care to do nothing to save his lost soul?

I guess I am willing to do good works till the cows come home. I don't care if I do more to earn God's approval than others.

Or, I guess I can just sit here an tell everyone that I have faith and am saved. I am sure that the words of my mouth are sufficient, right?

Would Jesus agree?

SavedByGraceByFait
Oct 25th 2013, 10:30 AM
I sit in a church every week full of people who fail to do what Jesus commissioned us to do. They believe that they are saved, so they see no need to do good works. They come to church, sit through a sermon, and go home "regenerated" all over again. Yep, saved by church attendance.

I wonder what James would say about such behavior? What would Jesus say?

While we are asking the Holy Spirit to tell us if we should be doing as Jesus commanded, perhaps we should reflect on what He commanded.

Why is it so important to anyone to see just how little one can do and still get to heaven? Are we trying to get the cheapest rate to the Kingdom?

Is my faith so weak that I refuse to share it with anyone? Is my love of God less that "with all my heart, mind, and soul?" Is my love of my neighbor so shallow that I care to do nothing to save his lost soul?

I guess I am willing to do good works till the cows come home. I don't care if I do more to earn God's approval than others.

Or, I guess I can just sit here an tell everyone that I have faith and am saved. I am sure that the words of my mouth are sufficient, right?

Would Jesus agree?

You are not using scripture. So the total value of your reply in zero.

Salvation is juts by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Romans 1:15-17
15 So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth[/B]; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, [B]The just shall live by faith.

Acts 16:30-31
30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

mailmandan
Oct 25th 2013, 11:18 AM
Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Do you believe that James is saying we are actually saved "by" works? Do works cause the justification that comes by faith or do works bear out the justification that comes by faith? Romans 4:2-3 - For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness."

Curtis
Oct 25th 2013, 11:32 AM
2Ti 1:8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;
2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—
Eph 2:6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

I don't see anyplace with in these scriptures that even mentions faith, or believe!!! Because it is strictly by God's mercy and grace that we are saved. God saved us before the world was created!!!
Even when we were still in our sins, God made us alive, and raised us up, and made us sit together in Heavenly places in Christ. Now that's grace!!! Of course he knew what our reaction would be to the gospel before he created this world, and this is how his was able to do this. All salvation, grace, faith, and righteousness are gifts that are accessed by faith.

SavedByGraceByFait
Oct 25th 2013, 11:38 AM
2Ti 1:8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;
2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—
Eph 2:6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

I don't see anyplace with in these scriptures that even mentions faith, or believe!!! Because it is strictly by God's mercy and grace that we are saved. God saved us before the world was created!!!
Even when we were still in our sins, God made us alive, and raised us up, and made us sit together in Heavenly places in Christ. Now that's grace!!! Of course he knew what our reaction would be to the gospel before he created this world, and this is how his was able to do this. All salvation, grace, faith, and righteousness are gifts that are accessed by faith.

Obviously by my name, SavedByGrace..., I believe we are saved by grace. Ephesians 2:8 says "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:"

But there are many which only mention faith or believe for salvation. If the word of God does that, so do I.

Curtis
Oct 25th 2013, 11:44 AM
Obviously by my name, SavedByGrace..., I believe we are saved by grace. Ephesians 2:8 says "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:"

But there are many which only mention faith or believe for salvation. If the word of God does that, so do I.

Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

We are saved by grace, but notice how we access this grace, by faith.

2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Also notice, there was nothing we could do to get this salvation on our own, it was according to his own purpose, and grace that he given us before the world began.

TBM 11
Oct 25th 2013, 11:49 AM
I was too tired yesterday to get into all this. I still don't want to get into an all out debate for hours, but I think this topic is extremely important to understand. For most of my life I had the same works based idea of Christianity. Feb. of this year that all changed. I saw a message of grace on tv that changed my view of Christianity forever. When I heard this message I started checking up on it by searching the scriptures, listening to other preachers, David Jeremiah, Adrian Rogers, Charles Stanley to name a few, paying close attention to anything they said about salvation. Every message I heard and scriptures I read concerning grace and salvation confirmed the saved by grace through faith alone teaching.

Saved by grace alone is what the bible teaches. People can hand pick a few verses that seem to teach works, but they are completely out numbered by grace alone scriptures. When studying the bible I think it is important to stress the obvious scriptures. God doesn't lie, nor does He try to confuse. The message of salvation by grace alone is simple and obvious to anyone that is not trying to make the message into something that religion teaches. Satan is the root of this misunderstanding. He wants to confuse and divide and he is an expert at it.

Here are a few scriptures scriptures, there are many more all over the bible if you pay attention, but I will start with these and when you read them, think about it, study it, don't just cancel them out in your mind because you want to cling to what religion has taught you.



1 Corinthians 3:10-15
10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Romans 11:6 - And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Romans 10:4 - For Christ [is] the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Romans 4:5 - But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Curtis
Oct 25th 2013, 12:00 PM
I was too tired yesterday to get into all this. I still don't want to get into an all out debate for hours, but I think this topic is extremely important to understand. For most of my life I had the same works based idea of Christianity. Feb. of this year that all changed. I saw a message of grace on tv that changed my view of Christianity forever. When I heard this message I started checking up on it by searching the scriptures, listening to other preachers, David Jeremiah, Adrian Rogers, Charles Stanley to name a few, paying close attention to anything they said about salvation. Every message I heard and scriptures I read concerning grace and salvation confirmed the saved by grace through faith alone teaching.

Saved by grace alone is what the bible teaches. People can hand pick a few verses that seem to teach works, but they are completely out numbered by grace alone scriptures. When studying the bible I think it is important to stress the obvious scriptures. God doesn't lie, nor does He try to confuse. The message of salvation by grace alone is simple and obvious to anyone that is not trying to make the message into something that religion teaches. Satan is the root of this misunderstanding. He wants to confuse and divide and he is an expert at it.

Here are a few scriptures scriptures, there are many more all over the bible if you pay attention, but I will start with these and when you read them, think about it, study it, don't just cancel them out in your mind because you want to cling to what religion has taught you.



1 Corinthians 3:10-15
10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Romans 11:6 - And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Romans 10:4 - For Christ [is] the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Romans 4:5 - But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

I use to believe the same way. I believe as a Christian grows in the Lord they eventually come to the conclusion that it was God alone who gives us salvation. Man has always wanted to say he had a hand in his salvation, but the truth is if the Lord did not reveal himself unto us we would never want him. All the praise, Glory, and credit goes to God, and not ourselves.

keck553
Oct 25th 2013, 01:36 PM
You are not using scripture. So the total value of your reply in zero.

Salvation is juts by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Romans 1:15-17
15 So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth[/B]; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, [B]The just shall live by faith.

Acts 16:30-31
30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Is "believe" something you think or something you do?

BrianW
Oct 25th 2013, 01:56 PM
You are not using scripture. So the total value of your reply in zero.



Mod Note: I've seen just about enough of this reply all over your threads. It's not only rude and disrespectful it's also totally wrong in most cases. This is a bible discussion board not a contest where people try and trump scripture with other scripture. If all you want is scripture log out of this website and read your bible.

SavedByGraceByFait
Oct 25th 2013, 03:47 PM
Is "believe" something you think or something you do?

Think.

It may lead to a change of actions.

Silvermist
Oct 25th 2013, 05:13 PM
Think.

It may lead to a change of actions.

Exactly! By believing (thinking) you can be renewed, leading to a change of actions, which come naturally and are not forced.

keck553
Oct 25th 2013, 05:45 PM
Think.

It may lead to a change of actions.

It "may" lead to actions? Does God need our approval? Does that mean that if you don't "think" one of God's comamndmants have an application in your life, you won't change your actions? Sorry, I am a little confused.

Does the Bible say Abraham "thought" before he obeyed God?

SavedByGraceByFait
Oct 25th 2013, 06:29 PM
It "may" lead to actions? Does God need our approval? Does that mean that if you don't "think" one of God's comamndmants have an application in your life, you won't change your actions? Sorry, I am a little confused.

Does the Bible say Abraham "thought" before he obeyed God?

Abraham was saved in Genesis 15, when he believed in what God promised him. That is not an action, just a firm faith in what God promised.

Genesis 15:5-6
5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
6 And he believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

That is explained by Paul in Romans 4.

Romans 4:18-25
18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.
19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sarah's womb:
20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Later Abraham was asked to offer up Isaac. Thus his prior faith in God's promise lead to the action of being ready to offer up Isaac, but God stopped him from carrying out. Paul in Hebrews 11 explains how that faith lead to the action.

Hebrews 11:17-19
17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:
19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

Neanias
Oct 25th 2013, 07:15 PM
'While we were dead in our trespasses, we were made alive with Christ.'

Considering ourselves to be justified because we think we have received this life, imputing righteousness to ourselves because we read that some received this life (and put ourselves in the text, though we are not named), believing ourselves saved because some who received such life were...

All these things are utterly useless to us unless we have in truth and reality received the life spoken of, and in truth have been made alive with Christ, living by the same power and life.

These ideas only serve to make us believe we are rich when we are still poor, and make us immune to the true call of Christ to 'come and buy eye salve from me, that you might see'. These things are enemies of the true cross, which truly today slays the old man, and through which we truly receive new life in Christ to walk as he walked here, today. As Peter says, 'that we might live the rest of our time in the flesh no longer to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.'

SavedByGraceByFait
Oct 25th 2013, 07:34 PM
'While we were dead in our trespasses, we were made alive with Christ.'

Considering ourselves to be justified because we think we have received this life, imputing righteousness to ourselves because we read that some received this life (and put ourselves in the text, though we are not named), believing ourselves saved because some who received such life were...

All these things are utterly useless to us unless we have in truth and reality received the life spoken of, and in truth have been made alive with Christ, living by the same power and life.

These ideas only serve to make us believe we are rich when we are still poor, and make us immune to the true call of Christ to 'come and buy eye salve from me, that you might see'. These things are enemies of the true cross, which truly today slays the old man, and through which we truly receive new life in Christ to walk as he walked here, today. As Peter says, 'that we might live the rest of our time in the flesh no longer to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.'

Salvation is guaranteed by Jesus Christ and the word of God.


Paul, the apostle of the Gentiles, wrote the following. From verse 16, all who believe the gospel of Jesus Christ have salvation. It would not be salvation if there were any possibility of damnation after the moment of salvation.

Romans 1:15-17
15 So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

From verse 25 of the passage below, all those that are saved have all their sins paid for by the blood of Jesus Christ.

Romans 3:19-26
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.



They have all their sins forgiven.

Colossians 1:14
In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

Ephesians 1:7
In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Colossians 2:13
And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Those that are saved are not under the law of sin unto damnation.

Romans 6:14
For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

From the above, we are assured by God Almighty the Saviour that if you believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, you are saved forever. Those that are saved through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and His shed blood have all their sins paid for by that blood. They have all their sins forgiven by faith in His atoning blood. God will not remember their sins. Therefore, no passage of damnation or condemnation applies to those saved by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Bro Berryl
Oct 25th 2013, 09:26 PM
From the above, we are assured by God Almighty the Saviour that if you believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, you are saved forever. Those that are saved through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and His shed blood have all their sins paid for by that blood. They have all their sins forgiven by faith in His atoning blood. God will not remember their sins. Therefore, no passage of damnation or condemnation applies to those saved by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

I have a question for you that believe that the blood of Jesus forgives a man of all his sins.

Question: does the blood of Christ forgive a persons past and future sins or just their past sins?

SavedByGraceByFait
Oct 25th 2013, 09:47 PM
I have a question for you that believe that the blood of Jesus forgives a man of all his sins.

Question: does the blood of Christ forgive a persons past and future sins or just their past sins?

All sins. There is no other sacrifice for sins.

Hebrews 10:12
But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

keck553
Oct 25th 2013, 10:02 PM
Abraham was saved in Genesis 15, when he believed in what God promised him. That is not an action, just a firm faith in what God promised.

.

No offense, but this is not a thought pattern the writer (Moses) of Genesis would have had. Abraham believed God as much as he believed that if he stepped off a cliff he would fall to his death.

Abraham submitted to the Law of God just as he submitted to the Law of gravity. In Hebraic thought, there is no either/or. It's both.

mailmandan
Oct 25th 2013, 10:02 PM
Is "believe" something you think or something you do?

The word translated believe is from the Greek word pisteuō which means "to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), that is, credit; by implication to entrust (especially one’s spiritual well being to Christ)."

The word believe "pisteuo" can describe mere mental assent belief, as in James 2:19, or also include "trust and reliance" in Christ for salvation, as in Acts 16:31. In James 2:19, nobody is questioning the fact that the demons believe/pisteuo "mental assent" that there is "one God" but they do not believe/entrust their spiritual well being to Christ have faith/reliance upon Christ for salvation. If we believe in Christ for salvation, then we are trusting in Him as the allsufficient means of our salvation. This belief will (to one degree or the other) result in actions appropriate to the belief - but the actions are NOT INHERENT in the belief. Believers are fruitful, but not all are equally fruitful (Matthew 13:23).

I believe that obedience/good works is a manifestation of our belief/faith. If we accomplish multiple acts of obedience in our lifetime, I would see this as a manifestation of our belief/faith, but not the origin of it. If someone died the same day that they genuinely placed their belief/faith in Jesus Christ for salvation (like the thief on the cross) and was unable to accomplish multiple acts of obedience, they still believed/had faith. You couldn't say, they did not accomplish multiple acts of obedience and belief/faith is in essence this obedience, so they did not believe.

keck553
Oct 25th 2013, 10:05 PM
Great, so then you agree that a regenerated person shows evidence of salvation by their actions.

works for me.

mailmandan
Oct 25th 2013, 10:08 PM
Exactly! By believing (thinking) you can be renewed, leading to a change of actions, which come naturally and are not forced.

Obedience (actions) are not forced or legalistic for the believer. The "whole picture", rests on cause and effect. Do we do good works TO QUALIFY for God's grace? Or is God's grace a completely free offer which then consequently leads TO good works? Do we do something because of faith, or is our faith caused by something we do? Which is cause and which is effect? Not according to works. But according to Jesus --- His sufficient and complete sacrifice. Sufficient and complete. Nothing more to be added to what Jesus did.

mailmandan
Oct 25th 2013, 10:14 PM
Great, so then you agree that a regenerated person shows evidence of salvation by their actions.

works for me.

To quote a phrase that James could have coined, the absence of evidence could be construed as evidence of absence (James 2:14-18). I will show you my faith by my works. No works would demonstrate no faith.

keck553
Oct 25th 2013, 10:24 PM
To quote a phrase that James could have coined, the absence of evidence could be construed as evidence of absence (James 2:14-18). I will show you my faith by my works. No works would demonstrate no faith.

Yeah. I like that "evidence of absence" phrase.

Bro Berryl
Oct 25th 2013, 10:31 PM
All sins. There is no other sacrifice for sins.

Hebrews 10:12
But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

I asked the question "did Jesus die for all sins past and future or just sins that were past?" I am not trying to be tricky or confusing but rather to point out a teaching that I feel is misunderstood.

Jesus came to be a ransom, to pay the price that was due God.

Matthew 20:28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

The price that was due came as a result of God overlooking the sins of all those that sacrificed a offering for sin by faith.

Hebrews 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

God declared that the sins of those giving their offerings were forgiven. How could God say their sins were forgiven? He could say it because they offered by faith looking forward to the day when the Messiah would come and take their sins away.

When Jesus died on the cross he was the sacrificial lamb that took away the sins of those faithful people, he was the atonement that God was looking for to pay the price for all those sins he overlooked.

Romans 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Because the price has been paid God in his mercy towards us gave us a new way to obtain mercy, not by offering animals but by coming to Jesus in humble submission and living our lives for him.

Hebrews 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
Hebrews 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
Hebrews 10:21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
Hebrews 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

The grace of God has appeared to all men but forgiveness of sins for all men was not accomplished at the cross. For a man to obtain forgiveness he must come to Jesus as the writer of Hebrews describes. In full assurance of faith, a repentant heart that desires to die to self in baptism and rise to walk a new life by faith in Christ Jesus.

Eyelog
Oct 25th 2013, 10:48 PM
Obedience (actions) are not forced or legalistic for the believer. The "whole picture", rests on cause and effect. Do we do good works TO QUALIFY for God's grace? Or is God's grace a completely free offer which then consequently leads TO good works? Do we do something because of faith, or is our faith caused by something we do? Which is cause and which is effect? Not according to works. But according to Jesus --- His sufficient and complete sacrifice. Sufficient and complete. Nothing more to be added to what Jesus did.

Hi, Mailmandan.

The works accompanying Abraham's trust in God's promise, i.e., attempted sacrifice of Isaac in obedience to God's command, did not nullify his faith, but demonstrated it. But it did so simultaneously. The faith which was counted as righteousness was complete, living faith, the kind with action in reliance on hope in God's promise.

Likewise, we must confess Jesus as Lord, which is an act, while we believe in our heart that God raised Jesus from the dead. Romans 9. The act demonstrating the faith is commensurate with the hope relied upon in so acting, producing living faith ala James, and consistent with Paul's account.

So-called faith without works is dead faith.

This does not mean the works cause us to earn our salvation; rather, they prove we have heart faith, for out of the heart overflow our words and actions, ala Jesus Himself.

Bro Berryl
Oct 25th 2013, 10:54 PM
Hi, Mailmandan.

The works accompanying Abraham's trust in God's promise, i.e., attempted sacrifice of Isaac in obedience to God's command, did not nullify his faith, but demonstrated it. But it did so simultaneously. The faith which was counted as righteousness was complete, living faith, the kind with action in reliance on hope in God's promise.

Likewise, we must confess Jesus as Lord, which is an act, while we believe in our heart that God raised Jesus from the dead. Romans 9. The act demonstrating the faith is commensurate with the hope relied upon in so acting, producing living faith ala James, and consistent with Paul's account.

So-called faith without works is dead faith.

This does not mean the works cause us to earn our salvation; rather, they prove we have heart faith, for out of the heart overflow our words and actions, ala Jesus Himself.

Hello Eyelog, your explanation of faith and works is right on, I think you said it very well. Just want to ask what you feel about baptism being a part of the obedience with repentance and confession?

Eyelog
Oct 25th 2013, 11:18 PM
Hello Eyelog, your explanation of faith and works is right on, I think you said it very well. Just want to ask what you feel about baptism being a part of the obedience with repentance and confession?

Water baptism upon one's initial confession of Jesus as Lord can be a demonstration of one's faith as well. It can be an expression of one's confession of Jesus as Lord. But I believe that water baptism is not the only way to demonstrate one's faith in God's righteousness as one's own, or of acceptance of Christ's work on the cross as one's justification and resultant righteousness, etc. Should believers be baptized? Sure. Must it happen at the moment of being born again? No. Can it? Yes.

Bro Berryl
Oct 26th 2013, 12:06 AM
Water baptism upon one's initial confession of Jesus as Lord can be a demonstration of one's faith as well. It can be an expression of one's confession of Jesus as Lord. But I believe that water baptism is not the only way to demonstrate one's faith in God's righteousness as one's own, or of acceptance of Christ's work on the cross as one's justification and resultant righteousness, etc. Should believers be baptized? Sure. Must it happen at the moment of being born again? No. Can it? Yes.

Please understand that I don't intend to engage in a debate over baptism, this thread is about works and salvation. I don't believe baptism is a work simply because of what the scriptures say about baptism.

You say that baptism is something believers should do but that it doesn't have to happen at the moment a person is born again. Obviously you believe that the Spirit plays the role of doctor by cutting away the sins from a believers heart, giving the person a heart of flesh and placing that person in the body of Christ.

I could be wrong about my assumption so before I share with you what I believe happens when a person is born again I'll let you respond.

Eyelog
Oct 26th 2013, 01:29 AM
Obviously you believe that the Spirit plays the role of doctor by cutting away the sins from a believers heart, giving the person a heart of flesh and placing that person in the body of Christ.


The heart becomes flesh, that it can change. The hardened, stone-like heart cannot change. So, that is what a heart of flesh is, a living heart. But after we are born again, though we have begun to treasure God for salvation, to varying degrees and in various areas of life we have not yet hoped fully in him for the remainder of our life on earth. This is because we are split, with one foot in what belongs to the old self and one foot in what belongs to the new. This is why we are commanded to put off the old and put on the new.

The key is that with the 'new heart' and all that goes with crucifixion with Christ and regeneration, we are now free to put off and put on. Our heart can be changed, whereas prior to the rebirth it could not.

But go on with your point about baptism.

mailmandan
Oct 26th 2013, 11:35 AM
Hi, Mailmandan.

The works accompanying Abraham's trust in God's promise, i.e., attempted sacrifice of Isaac in obedience to God's command, did not nullify his faith, but demonstrated it. But it did so simultaneously. The faith which was counted as righteousness was complete, living faith, the kind with action in reliance on hope in God's promise.

Hi Eyelog,

In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham was essential, not because it had some kind of intrinsic merit to save him but because it proved or manifested the genuineness of his faith. Faith made perfect or completed by his works means to bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean he was finally saved years later based on his work of attempting to sacrifice Isaac in obedience to God's command. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.


Likewise, we must confess Jesus as Lord, which is an act, while we believe in our heart that God raised Jesus from the dead. Romans 9. The act demonstrating the faith is commensurate with the hope relied upon in so acting, producing living faith ala James, and consistent with Paul's account.

The word "confess" means to acknowledge or agree. It often involves what is expressed with the mouth or at least with the mind (not everyone can speak). A belief that is genuine is marked by confession. A confession that is true reflects saving faith. This confession is not just a simple acknowledgment that Jesus is the Son of God, but is a deep personal conviction, without reservation, that Jesus is that person's Lord and Savior. Confession with the mouth and belief in the heart refer to the believer's outward and inward responses. Inward conviction finds outward expression, not as a work for salvation but as an expression of faith. *Notice in 1 Corinthians 12:3, "..no one can say that JESUS IS LORD except BY the Holy Spirit (not in order to receive the Holy Spirit and become saved after faith). It's not the confession "in of itself" that saves us as an additional requirement after faith, it's the faith behind the confession. We could "lip service" confess all day long without faith and it would be futile. Faith and confession are not two separate steps to salvation. They are chronologically together.


So-called faith without works is dead faith.

Amen! In James 2:14, we read of one who "says he has faith" but has no works. This is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith.


This does not mean the works cause us to earn our salvation; rather, they prove we have heart faith, for out of the heart overflow our words and actions, ala Jesus Himself.

Amen! I will show you my faith by my works (James 2:18). "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned" (Matthew 12:37). This is because our words (and our works) reveal the state of our hearts. Words (and works) will give evidence for, or against a man's being in a state of grace and righteousness.

Neanias
Oct 26th 2013, 05:54 PM
Romans 6:14
For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ, and walk by the Spirit. All these words are fine and true, as long as they come with the reality of a walk in power where we are conformed to Christ Jesus and walk as he walked, which is the context in which Paul says these things.

The words are the same, but the gospel is not in words, but in power. So if we preach this with power and the reality of a walk lived out in Christ Jesus then yes! But if we preach such a salvation, such a forgiveness, but preach it as something we receive without being transformed and receiving new life, we teach a lie, and immunize many to the true Gospel of life and power in Christ.

If we teach it with a theory of new life, and a theory of transformation, but which we say does not happen in this life, it is just the same: we immunize people to the true gospel which offers his life and power in us now and today.

Let the wise discern between the two!

SavedByGraceByFait
Oct 26th 2013, 09:06 PM
There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ, and walk by the Spirit. All these words are fine and true, as long as they come with the reality of a walk in power where we are conformed to Christ Jesus and walk as he walked, which is the context in which Paul says these things.

The words are the same, but the gospel is not in words, but in power. So if we preach this with power and the reality of a walk lived out in Christ Jesus then yes! But if we preach such a salvation, such a forgiveness, but preach it as something we receive without being transformed and receiving new life, we teach a lie, and immunize many to the true Gospel of life and power in Christ.

If we teach it with a theory of new life, and a theory of transformation, but which we say does not happen in this life, it is just the same: we immunize people to the true gospel which offers his life and power in us now and today.

Let the wise discern between the two!

Salvation is a one time event. As Jesus Christ said

John 3:7
Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

It occurs the moment that you trust in Jesus Christ and His shed blood as the payment for your sins.

John 3:14-18
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

TBM 11
Oct 26th 2013, 09:19 PM
Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. 3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1-4

We should use the correct wording when we try to quote scripture. Not real hard to do with the information superhighway at your fingertips. ;)

Eyelog
Oct 26th 2013, 10:04 PM
Hi Eyelog,

In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham was essential, not because it had some kind of intrinsic merit to save him but because it proved or manifested the genuineness of his faith. Faith made perfect or completed by his works means to bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean he was finally saved years later based on his work of attempting to sacrifice Isaac in obedience to God's command. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.



The word "confess" means to acknowledge or agree. It often involves what is expressed with the mouth or at least with the mind (not everyone can speak). A belief that is genuine is marked by confession. A confession that is true reflects saving faith. This confession is not just a simple acknowledgment that Jesus is the Son of God, but is a deep personal conviction, without reservation, that Jesus is that person's Lord and Savior. Confession with the mouth and belief in the heart refer to the believer's outward and inward responses. Inward conviction finds outward expression, not as a work for salvation but as an expression of faith. *Notice in 1 Corinthians 12:3, "..no one can say that JESUS IS LORD except BY the Holy Spirit (not in order to receive the Holy Spirit and become saved after faith). It's not the confession "in of itself" that saves us as an additional requirement after faith, it's the faith behind the confession. We could "lip service" confess all day long without faith and it would be futile. Faith and confession are not two separate steps to salvation. They are chronologically together.

Mailmandan, I doubt that we differ on this very much, if at all.

I like how you point out that "Faith and confession are not two separate steps to salvation. They are chronologically together."

I would add two points:

1. In Ge 22, after stopping Abraham from killing Isaac, God says thru the Angel of the Lord:


“By Myself I have sworn, declares the Lord, because you have done this thing and have not withheld your son, your only son, 17 indeed I will greatly bless you, and I will greatly multiply your seed

We see (a) the act with the faith and (b) the Lord pointing out that it was because of the act, with the faith, that he was blessing Abraham.

2. As you point out about Ge 15, the Angel of the Lord "took [Abram] outside and said, “Now look toward the heavens, and count the stars, if you are able to count them.” And He said to him, “So shall your descendants be.” 6 Then he believed in the Lord; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness."

Here, we read that he believed in the Lord. We don't know for sure what that meant, whether it was believing that the Lord was real, or that He would give him offspring. Seems more like the latter. Of course, Abram then asks how he could "know" he will receive the land the Lord tells him he shall receive. And the Lord has him cut up some animals and eventually" a smoking oven and a flaming torch ... passed between these pieces" of the animals Abram had cut in half. The Lord said He made a covenant with Abram as to such. From this, we could infer that the covenant came as a result of Abram's obedience in doing the sacrifice and protecting it from the birds of prey.

What we don't know from the account is whether Abram merely believed in his heart in 15:6, or he both, believed at heart and said he believed. Taken at face value, it is the former. Certainty of interpretation only comes if we find other passages confirming salvation is by faith in the heart alone, which itself would tend to contradict Romans 9.

I think the most important thing we can know for sure is that the blessing came after Abraham was tested, and his actions showed the extent of his faith. Clearly, once we are credited with righteousness, our faith is to be born out with both, faith in the heart and acts in reliance on that faith.

SavedByGraceByFait
Oct 27th 2013, 02:40 AM
Mailmandan, I doubt that we differ on this very much, if at all.

I like how you point out that "Faith and confession are not two separate steps to salvation. They are chronologically together."

I would add two points:

1. In Ge 22, after stopping Abraham from killing Isaac, God says thru the Angel of the Lord:



We see (a) the act with the faith and (b) the Lord pointing out that it was because of the act, with the faith, that he was blessing Abraham.

2. As you point out about Ge 15, the Angel of the Lord "took [Abram] outside and said, “Now look toward the heavens, and count the stars, if you are able to count them.” And He said to him, “So shall your descendants be.” 6 Then he believed in the Lord; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness."

Here, we read that he believed in the Lord. We don't know for sure what that meant, whether it was believing that the Lord was real, or that He would give him offspring. Seems more like the latter. Of course, Abram then asks how he could "know" he will receive the land the Lord tells him he shall receive. And the Lord has him cut up some animals and eventually" a smoking oven and a flaming torch ... passed between these pieces" of the animals Abram had cut in half. The Lord said He made a covenant with Abram as to such. From this, we could infer that the covenant came as a result of Abram's obedience in doing the sacrifice and protecting it from the birds of prey.

What we don't know from the account is whether Abram merely believed in his heart in 15:6, or he both, believed at heart and said he believed. Taken at face value, it is the former. Certainty of interpretation only comes if we find other passages confirming salvation is by faith in the heart alone, which itself would tend to contradict Romans 9.

I think the most important thing we can know for sure is that the blessing came after Abraham was tested, and his actions showed the extent of his faith. Clearly, once we are credited with righteousness, our faith is to be born out with both, faith in the heart and acts in reliance on that faith.

There are about 200 passages about salvation and only belief and faith in Jesus Christ
Anything else would contradict all those passages

cindyt
Oct 27th 2013, 02:54 AM
We are so afraid of the word "works" that we absolutely refuse to let ourselves be accused of doing any. After all, someone might say that we are depending on our works to save us...........

Totally neglecting the fact that works are commanded of us. Not by works, but by grace are we saved. BUT, if you are saved--if you love Him--you will bear fruit, which is works, if you will, for Him

Obfuscate
Oct 27th 2013, 03:11 AM
"In the minor premise, 'without works' is truly in the subject periphrase and refers to faith. We say that justification is effective without works, not that faith is without works. For that faith which lacks fruit is not an efficacious but a feigned faith. 'Without works' is ambiguous, then. For that reason this argument settles nothing. It is one thing that faith justifies without works; it is another thing that faith exists without works."

Martin Luther

Neanias
Oct 27th 2013, 04:34 AM
There are about 200 passages about salvation and only belief and faith in Jesus Christ
Anything else would contradict all those passages

Anything else would contradict your interpretation of all those passages, rather.

But the Bible speaks many other things, which you have chosen to throw out the window, including a walk in new life and the power of Christ, where we do the works that God has ordained for us.

Neanias
Oct 27th 2013, 04:41 AM
Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. 3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1-4

We should use the correct wording when we try to quote scripture. Not real hard to do with the information superhighway at your fingertips. ;)

An abbreviation was made to get to the point. But indeed what is in between is important! Thanks for pointing it out. :)

He was made an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh. Much like John saying that he came to take away sin and that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Christ was sent as an offering not just to forgive sins past, but to now cleanse us and perfect us in Himself.

Heb. 7:18 For on the one hand there is an annulling of the former commandment because of its weakness and unprofitableness, 19 for the law made nothing perfect; on the other hand, there is the bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God.

No one is justified by the Mosaic law because it did not make men perfect, conformed to God's will. The power of the new covenant in Christ Jesus is that we do receive his life to be made just as he is.

Those who use the abolishing of the necessity of the Mosaic law as a means of destroying obedience only reveal the lawlessness of their hearts and their desire for an easy salvation without being doers of the word.

Curtis
Oct 27th 2013, 06:47 AM
Let me rearrange a few scriptures and lets see what happens.....

Jas 2:18..... shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Jas 2:18....show me thy works without faith, and I will shew thee my works by my faith.

------------------------------------------------------------
Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that works without faith is dead?

These scriptures mean the same thing even if you transpose them. We are stuck on works as a means of showing our faith. Surely faith and works go hand in hand
but the real question should be who is doing these works? You can have works without having faith. Works does not prove a man has faith. Remember Jesus say....

Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Works means nothing without faith. The question should be who is doing these works that we are suppose to be doing?

Jesus said....

Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Isa 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

All of our righteous works are but as filthy rags to God. Without Jesus Christ we can do nothing.

Php 4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

Even Jesus Christ said that he himself can do nothing with out his Father working through him.....

Joh 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

If the Son of God said it was his Father that was working through him, then who do you suppose is suppose to be working through us?
If we think it is our self's then we are no different than those who say. Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Boo
Oct 27th 2013, 08:54 AM
There are about 200 passages about salvation and only belief and faith in Jesus Christ
Anything else would contradict all those passages

This is where your interpretation goes off track.

There is no such thing as verses that are wrong. If you stack up 200 passages to support your desired belief, and those two hundred passages contradict even one other verse, then your interpretation is wrong. All of the passages must be taken together and all must be true. If someone shows you that God requires work from us as evidence of our acceptance of Him, then that work is required. Jesus said in John 14:12

"Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father.
21
Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me. And he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him."

Your works are demonstration of your belief. Your obedience to His commands is proof of your love for Him. No works? No belief. No obedience? No love.

No belief and love? No Salvation. These verses do not contradict the 200. They help us understand what it takes to be a disciple. A person sitting on a church pew each Sunday is not proving himself to be a disciple.

SavedByGraceByFait
Oct 27th 2013, 10:57 AM
This is where your interpretation goes off track.

There is no such thing as verses that are wrong. If you stack up 200 passages to support your desired belief, and those two hundred passages contradict even one other verse, then your interpretation is wrong. All of the passages must be taken together and all must be true. If someone shows you that God requires work from us as evidence of our acceptance of Him, then that work is required. Jesus said in John 14:12

21

Your works are demonstration of your belief. Your obedience to His commands is proof of your love for Him. No works? No belief. No obedience? No love.

No belief and love? No Salvation. These verses do not contradict the 200. They help us understand what it takes to be a disciple. A person sitting on a church pew each Sunday is not proving himself to be a disciple.

Neither of those 2 verses show anything that says works or obedience is a requirement to be saved or to maintain salvation.

There is no passage that says all the saved are disciples. Paul the apostle of the Gentiles, who has the gospel of salvation, does not even mention the word disciple.

Paul was asked the very direct question of "what must I do to be saved?" If anyone beside God would know it is Paul. And Paul said "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved." Since Paul only listed one thing it must be the only thing needed.

Acts 16:30-31
30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

episkopos
Oct 27th 2013, 12:38 PM
Neither of those 2 verses show anything that says works or obedience is a requirement to be saved or to maintain salvation.

There is no passage that says all the saved are disciples. Paul the apostle of the Gentiles, who has the gospel of salvation, does not even mention the word disciple.

Paul was asked the very direct question of "what must I do to be saved?" If anyone beside God would know it is Paul. And Paul said "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved." Since Paul only listed one thing it must be the only thing needed.

Acts 16:30-31
30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

The jailer thought he would be killed for letting the prisoners go free...but Paul assured him that he should trust in the Lord and that he would not be killed...he nor his family.

Why do so many people only see salvation as an eternal thing when clearly we need deliverance daily? The jailer was afraid for his life (and his family's). Paul assured him that if he just trust in Jesus that he would be ok. Paul also prayed that all would be saved when he was shipwrecked. So the entire crew and passengers were saved there as well.

God delivers us not just in an eternal sense but also in our day to day struggles.


Act 27:31 Paul said to the centurion and to the soldiers, Except these abide in the ship, ye cannot be saved.


How many people believe that they must abide "in the ship" to be saved (eternally)????

Bandit
Oct 27th 2013, 12:38 PM
The Holy Bible is quite clear that works of any kind do not save. In fact, the Holy Bible emphatically states that if someone is trying to earn salvation by works or merit, that person will not get saved till they repent (change their mind) and cease trying to earn salvation. Works done for salvation mean no salvation. They mock Christ’s sacrifice on the cross.

Paul is the apostle of the Gentiles, and it is the will of Jesus Christ that the Gentiles are to hear the gospel from Paul’s letters.

...

The above sampling absolutely proves that works are not needed for salvation. They also prove that eternal security (once saved always saved) is absolutely true. They are emphatic and quite clear. Since the Holy Bible has no contradictions, anything that someone thinks shows otherwise is just a mistaken interpretation. ...


...
Paul is the apostle of the Gentiles. Paul got the gospel of salvation from Jesus Christ.
...


Hello SBGBF (and all),

I am going to try to catch up on this thread today, but I have an initial question for you, SBGBF: Are you a hyper-dispensationalist? Your quotes above lean strongly in that direction. And for those who don't know what a hyper-dispensationalist is, at least in part, it is someone who elevates certain of Paul's teachings (and the interpretation thereof) above the rest of scripture. So when someone comes in and says something like, "Paul is the apostle to the gentiles, and we are to get our gospel from him," then those who are of sound mind should be on alert. What is actually being said here is that certain of Paul's words are to be interpreted apart from the teachings of the other apostles (who were apostles to the Jews only and therefore taught a different gospel - at least this is what such dispensationalists want to imply). And such persons even interpret these select portions of Paul apart from the teachings of the LORD Himself (and sometimes even apart from other teachings of Paul). In their dispensationalist eyes, Jesus was in the most part giving instruction to national Israel and not specifically to the church. But is not the church His body? And is His body not now made of Jew and Gentile brought together in Him? So would Peter and James be teaching another gospel? So did Jesus Himself teach 'another' gospel - in as far as the majority of His teachings are not binding on us gentiles? I think a lot of people need to have their guard up in this thread.

Bandit

SavedByGraceByFait
Oct 27th 2013, 12:53 PM
Hello SBGBF (and all),

I am going to try to catch up on this thread today, but I have an initial question for you, SBGBF: Are you a hyper-dispensationalist? Your quotes above lean strongly in that direction. And for those who don't know what a hyper-dispensationalist is, at least in part, it is someone who elevates certain of Paul's teachings (and the interpretation thereof) above the rest of scripture. So when someone comes in and says something like, "Paul is the apostle to the gentiles, and we are to get our gospel from him," then those who are of sound mind should be on alert. What is actually being said here is that certain of Paul's words are to be interpreted apart from the teachings of the other apostles (who were apostles to the Jews only and therefore taught a different gospel - at least this is what such dispensationalists want to imply). And such persons even interpret these select portions of Paul apart from the teachings of the LORD Himself (and sometimes even apart from other teachings of Paul). In their dispensationalist eyes, Jesus was in the most part giving instruction to national Israel and not specifically to the church. But is not the church His body? And is His body not now made of Jew and Gentile brought together in Him? So would Peter and James be teaching another gospel? So did Jesus Himself teach 'another' gospel - in as far as the majority of His teachings are not binding on us gentiles? I think a lot of people need to have their guard up in this thread.

Bandit

I am a dispensationalist because the Holy Bible clearly teaches dispensationalism. For example, the Old Testament is not the testament that counts today, but the New Testament.
For example, in the Old Testament a person had to have an animal sacrifice for sins as prescribed in the law. Today that would be an abomination.
In the Old Testament, a person would have to dwell in a booth in the late fall fro a week.
In the Old Testament, a person would not be able to eat shell fish.
There are many things in the Old Testament that do not apply to Christians. So a person must be a dispensationalist or they would deny the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.
So are you a dispensationalist?

There is only one gospel of salvation and it is fully revealed through Paul's writings.

The Holy Bible is quite clear that Paul is the apostle of the Gentile and that Paul has the gospel of salvation. To ignore that is to ignore what God has decreed.

From the following verses, it is God’s will, that Paul is the apostle of the Gentiles and that it is through his writings, which he got by direct revelation from the Lord Jesus Christ, that the gospel of salvation is to be preached to the Gentiles.

Romans 11:13
For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

Romans 15:16
That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.

2 Timothy 4:17
Notwithstanding the Lord stood with me, and strengthened me; that by me the preaching might be fully known, and that all the Gentiles might hear: and I was delivered out of the mouth of the lion.

Paul preaches, defends, and declares the gospel of salvation through his writings.

Romans 1:15
So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.

Philippians 1:17
But the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defence of the gospel.

1 Corinthians 15:1-4
1Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

It is the gospel of salvation that Paul preaches through his writings that are the very basis of God’s judgment.

Romans 2:16
In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

From the next verse it is obvious that all who believe the gospel of Christ are saved. No other requirement in mentioned.

Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

We are commanded to rightly dividing the word of truth. Everyone divides the word of truth (the Holy Bible) in some manner. The question is what method is the correct way. For example no one dwells in booths for the feast of tabernacles (see Leviticus 23:42). Most people correctly recognize that the ceremonial laws, the feast days, the Levitical priesthood, the tabernacle care, the dietary restrictions, and the sacrificial parts of the Old Testament law do not apply to us the saved Gentiles since we are under the New Testament. Thus they rightly divide out these commands as not applying to Christians today.

2 Timothy 2:15
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

But right division also eliminates parts of the New Testament. For example nobody does the following.

Mark 16:18
They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Not many do the following either.

Acts 4:34
Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold,

Rightly dividing the word of truth means to accept that Paul is the apostle of the Gentiles and that his writings declare, defend and preach the gospel of salvation. We are to consider what Paul writes.

2 Timothy 2:7-8
7 Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things.
8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:

Paul got the gospel he preaches directly from Jesus Christ (equivalent to words in red).

Galatians 1:11-12,15-16
11But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
12For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
15But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,
16To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

NOTE that the apostles agreed that Paul is to preach the gospel to the Gentiles.

Galatians 2:7-9
7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;
8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:)
9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

Jesus Christ chose Paul for this task.

Acts 9:15
But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:

Bandit
Oct 27th 2013, 12:58 PM
... Good works come after salvation.
They are never FOR salvation or to maintain salvation, but after salvation as a result of salvation. ...

Hello SBGBF,

I have some additional questions for you. How does what you say here mesh with what Jesus taught in the Sermon on the Mount? (Or would you claim Jesus' sermon has no applicability to salvation?) Does not Jesus teach that the path one walks determines where they will end up? Please address these questions.

Bandit
Oct 27th 2013, 01:15 PM
You should give scripture.

The saved can never have condemnation. Salvation is just ny faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and guaranteed forever.


Hello SBGBF,

So let me ask you, was not the servant in the parable in Matthew 18 forgiven his entire sin debt? And is not salvation the total forgiveness of sins? So how did this totally forgiven one come to re-inherit his entire sin debt?



John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.


And let me ask you here, do you really understand the words in this passage? And have you examined the Greek carefully? (Or are you basing your understanding on what you think is being said from the English translation alone? (And are you willing to dig deeper?)

Bandit
Oct 27th 2013, 01:55 PM
Paul is the apostle of the Gentiles (Romans 11:13) chosen by Jesus Christ.
Paul has the gospel of salvation, by direct revelation of Jesus Christ (Galatians 1:11-12)
The Gentiles are to hear the gospel of salvation from Paul as ordained by Jesus Christ (Romans 15:16. 2 Timothy 4:17)

Paul said it not by works.

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Hello all,

As I said before, I now say again, be alert to what is being proclaimed here. What is being presented is a 'gospel from Paul' which is being arrived at via scriptural interpretation which puts extreme barriers between Paul's teachings and Jesus' teachings, and between Paul's and Peter's, and between Paul's and James', (and even sometimes between Paul's and Paul's).

So, SBGBF, are we to now hear the teachings of Jesus, but only through a dispensational view of Paul's explanation of them? If so, then how were those who heard Him suppose to understand? Did not Jesus expect His words to be understood by those who heard Him? And did He not sometimes explain His teachings in detail to those who asked? And have you studied Ephesians 2:8,9 from the Greek? Again, I don't think these words of Paul's mean what you imply. A lot of problems arise when we do not try to interpret the New Testament as a whole - with Jesus as its King and Master. But as a dispensationalist, you drive a wedge between the servant Paul and His LORD and Master. This is not the way of wise interpretation. I advise you to seek wisdom, for she calls aloud, but the voice of dispensationlism is not her voice.

Bandit
Oct 27th 2013, 02:52 PM
I have a question for those that are responding to this thread:

Question: How can we tell when the bible is speaking about works of the Law, from when the bible is talking about works of righteousness?

It seems to me much of the confusion in this thread stems from not being able to distinguish between the two.

Hello Bro Berryl,

I believe the real problem here is a misunderstanding of what 'faith' means. Those who lived faithfully under the law did so by faith. Those who live faithfully under the New Covenant also do so by faith. But faith is not mere mental assent of either covenant.

Faith is believing God's word and responding appropriately. This is something any person can/could do under either covenant. (Or could do - like Noah, Abraham, and Job did - before either 'covenant' was given.)

But what does God's word say? Does it not say that those who live one way will be rewarded, and those who live another way will be condemned? If this is true, then doesn't a 'faithful' response include how one lives (or intends to live)? I can agree that we don't have to live rightly first, and then proclaim to God that because we lived rightly, He has no choice but to let us in (to eternal life). But it is a different story if His call is to walk a righteous path, and then we claim to have faith, but don't walk the righteous path. To respond to Him faithfully, we must acknowledge up front that He has called us to walk a certain path. And in doing so have we not acknowledged that our walk will determine where we arrive? And is this not consistent with His message (like as given in the Sermon on the Mount)?

Bandit

Eyelog
Oct 27th 2013, 03:11 PM
Quote Originally Posted by Bro Berryl View Post
I have a question for those that are responding to this thread:

Question: How can we tell when the bible is speaking about works of the Law, from when the bible is talking about works of righteousness?

It seems to me much of the confusion in this thread stems from not being able to distinguish between the two.


Hello Bro Berryl,

I believe the real problem here is a misunderstanding of what 'faith' means. Those who lived faithfully under the law did so by faith. Those who live faithfully under the New Covenant also do so by faith. But faith is not mere mental assent of either covenant.

Faith is believing God's word and responding appropriately. This is something any person can/could do under either covenant. (Or could do - like Noah, Abraham, and Job did - before either 'covenant' was given.)

But what does God's word say? Does it not say that those who live one way will be rewarded, and those who live another way will be condemned? If this is true, then doesn't a 'faithful' response include how one lives (or intends to live)? I can agree that we don't have to live rightly first, and then proclaim to God that because we lived rightly, He has no choice but to let us in (to eternal life). But it is a different story if His call is to walk a righteous path, and then we claim to have faith, but don't walk the righteous path. To respond to Him faithfully, we must acknowledge up front that He has called us to walk a certain path. And in doing so have we not acknowledged that our walk will determine where we arrive? And is this not consistent with His message (like as given in the Sermon on the Mount)?

Bandit

Hello, Bandit and BroBeryl.

I like Bandit's response to the posed question, but would add that works of the law are always aimed at seeking one's righteousness, for if you keep the law it is your righteousness. Whereas, acts of righteousness are never aimed at seeking one's righteousness, bc by definition they are done to please and love God and love others, not for any other reason.

Bandit is correct that the law was to be kept by faith, rather than by works, but 95+% of the time, as he alludes, people did not keep it by faith, but treated it as works.

So, in shorthand, the law is to earn one's righteousness, whereas, acts of righteousness are acts one does, before or after being 'saved', which do not have the purpose of attempting to earn one's salvation, or merit one's justification or righteousness before God, or to impress other people, but are done in obedience to God, in love of God and in love of others. I am thinking of Jesus' comment not do your acts of righteousness to be seen by others.

Can an unbeliever do an act of righteousness? No. But a person who believes in God, but has not yet accepted Christ as savior and lord might. Hence, JC's discourse to the Jews about not doing their acts of righteousness to be seen by people.

However, one doing acts of righteousness surely wants God to see them, bc (1) God's seeing them makes them meaningful rather than merely anonymous, as God is the audience who appreciates them, and (2) God promises to reward us for our righteous acts.

In contrast, acts/omissions of the Law are for God to see, whether we like it or not, and God promised the Israelites blessings rather than curses for keeping it -- very temporal. But keeping it also was to be their righteousness. yet, they could not keep it unless they did so by faith. Note the extent to which the emphasis with the law is on outward conduct, which can only be consistently performed with inward, heart faith. Bandit's point about the Sermon on the mount is well taken, as Jesus was teaching that the outward conduct was not enough, but that we are judged for (1) the heart with which something was done, as well as for (2) heart-acts without outward conduct, such as lusting after another person.

SavedByGraceByFait
Oct 27th 2013, 03:17 PM
Hello all,

As I said before, I now say again, be alert to what is being proclaimed here. What is being presented is a 'gospel from Paul' which is being arrived at via scriptural interpretation which puts extreme barriers between Paul's teachings and Jesus' teachings, and between Paul's and Peter's, and between Paul's and James', (and even sometimes between Paul's and Paul's).

So, SBGBF, are we to now hear the teachings of Jesus, but only through a dispensational view of Paul's explanation of them? If so, then how were those who heard Him suppose to understand? Did not Jesus expect His words to be understood by those who heard Him? And did He not sometimes explain His teachings in detail to those who asked? And have you studied Ephesians 2:8,9 from the Greek? Again, I don't think these words of Paul's mean what you imply. A lot of problems arise when we do not try to interpret the New Testament as a whole - with Jesus as its King and Master. But as a dispensationalist, you drive a wedge between the servant Paul and His LORD and Master. This is not the way of wise interpretation. I advise you to seek wisdom, for she calls aloud, but the voice of dispensationlism is not her voice.

Well I will see if your theory holds.

Jesus Christ said:

Matthew 23:1-3
1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
2 Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

Now that is the teaching of Jesus Christ.

Is that binding on Christians today?
Yes or No.

Acts 15:29
That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood ...

No you eat meat that has blood in it?
Yes or No

keck553
Oct 27th 2013, 03:18 PM
"Many will come to me and say "Lord, Lord......"

A lot of people are "saved" by illusion only. Salvation bears its own witness, if I bear no fruit (good works) of salvation, then I am walking in my own self effort. If I am saved, obedience to Christ is a natural outcome of my regeneration. If I am not obeying Christ (good works) then I am walking in my own self effort.

SBGBF, I have to tell you a truth. A person who's works doesn't testify of their salvation is not walking in the Spirit; they are walking in their own self effort. And those works will not please God. Being a Christian is hard work. We must first choose to obey God, and some of His commands our natural selves will not want to do. Instead of searching through Scripture for a work-around, we need to choose obedience and and allow The Holy Spirit to lead us into victory (fulfilling the commandment).

When I was a toddler, I tried as hard as I could to walk, but I kept falling. Then my parents took my hands and I could walk. I choose to walk, and my parents led me to victory. This subject is not rocket science. It's rather simple in fact.

keck553
Oct 27th 2013, 03:21 PM
No you eat meat that has blood in it?
Yes or No

You are misinterpreting this command.

And, yes blood is drained from animals after they are slaughtered. Haven't you ever gone hunting? The "blood" you see in your steak is residual. If you are going to insist all residual fluids be wringed out of meat, just remember Jesus had something to say about Pharisees straining gnats.....

episkopos
Oct 27th 2013, 03:43 PM
Well I will see if your theory holds.

Jesus Christ said:

Matthew 23:1-3
1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
2 Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

Now that is the teaching of Jesus Christ.

Is that binding on Christians today?
Yes or No.

Acts 15:29
That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood ...

No you eat meat that has blood in it?
Yes or No

The law of righteousness far outdates the ceremonial laws given at Sinai. Would you make God not care about truth, wickedness, obedience etc.....in order to save yourself?

SavedByGraceByFait
Oct 27th 2013, 04:53 PM
The law of righteousness far outdates the ceremonial laws given at Sinai. Would you make God not care about truth, wickedness, obedience etc.....in order to save yourself?

Nobody saved themselves.

Jesus is the only Saviour.

episkopos
Oct 27th 2013, 06:06 PM
Nobody saved themselves.

Jesus is the only Saviour.

Is Jesus against the God of the Old Testament. Is Jesus saving us from His own Father?

SavedByGraceByFait
Oct 27th 2013, 07:54 PM
Is Jesus against the God of the Old Testament. Is Jesus saving us from His own Father?

Jesus Christ is the only Saviour.

1 Timothy 2:15
Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

Galatians 3:13-14
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Romans 8:31-39
31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Eyelog
Oct 28th 2013, 01:11 AM
Savedbygracebyfait, did you misspell your username? Did you mean, savedbygracebyfiat?

episkopos
Oct 28th 2013, 01:13 AM
Savedbygracebyfait, did you misspell your username? Did you mean, savedbygracebyfiat?

I think it means a fait accompli (done deal) ;)

SavedByGraceByFait
Oct 28th 2013, 01:17 AM
I think it means a fait accompli (done deal) ;)

Just add the "h" and you get SavedByGraceByFaith.

But if you mean by fiat of Jesus Christ, yes.

fiat - an authoritative determination

Jesus Christ declared by fiat.

John 6:47
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

keck553
Oct 28th 2013, 02:35 AM
I give up. I think someone here just wants to listen to themself.

SavedByGraceByFait
Oct 28th 2013, 10:44 AM
"Many will come to me and say "Lord, Lord......"

A lot of people are "saved" by illusion only. Salvation bears its own witness, if I bear no fruit (good works) of salvation, then I am walking in my own self effort. If I am saved, obedience to Christ is a natural outcome of my regeneration. If I am not obeying Christ (good works) then I am walking in my own self effort.

SBGBF, I have to tell you a truth. A person who's works doesn't testify of their salvation is not walking in the Spirit; they are walking in their own self effort. And those works will not please God. Being a Christian is hard work. We must first choose to obey God, and some of His commands our natural selves will not want to do. Instead of searching through Scripture for a work-around, we need to choose obedience and and allow The Holy Spirit to lead us into victory (fulfilling the commandment).

When I was a toddler, I tried as hard as I could to walk, but I kept falling. Then my parents took my hands and I could walk. I choose to walk, and my parents led me to victory. This subject is not rocket science. It's rather simple in fact.

Your entire theory is salvation by self effort.

I have not searched the scriptures for a work around. You just ignored all the scripture where salavtion is just by faith or belief in Jesus Christ. You are counting on your works and obedience. The problem is that no one is saved that way at all.

Paul refuted your theory.

Romans 4:5
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

episkopos
Oct 28th 2013, 01:45 PM
Your entire theory is salvation by self effort.

I have not searched the scriptures for a work around. You just ignored all the scripture where salavtion is just by faith or belief in Jesus Christ. You are counting on your works and obedience. The problem is that no one is saved that way at all.

Paul refuted your theory.

Romans 4:5
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

How is your position any different from the self-righteousness that the Pharisees exhibited through their bible studies?

keck553
Oct 28th 2013, 02:17 PM
Your entire theory is salvation by self effort.

I have not searched the scriptures for a work around. You just ignored all the scripture where salavtion is just by faith or belief in Jesus Christ. You are counting on your works and obedience. The problem is that no one is saved that way at all.

Paul refuted your theory.

Romans 4:5
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

I didn't ignore anything, I am in perfect agreement with Paul. Abraham's faith caused him to do works. Anyone who claims their salvation but does not produce fruit is living under a false hope and falling prey to false doctrines.

If you can not obey His commandments, you are living by self effort. The Spirit empowers you to have victory the moment you choose to get up and walk in His ways.

But I do have a theory for you to test. Either you are making excuses not to obey our Lord, or you do not want to obey Him, or you are afraid to obey Him in fear of failure. Which is it?

Neanias
Oct 28th 2013, 03:14 PM
1 Peter 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

1 Peter 2:7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, 8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

Peter differentiates those who believe with those who are disobedient. The kind of 'believing' that saves is a believing that obeys God and follows his commandments through the Spirit. The power to fully do so is available in Christ Jesus.

episkopos
Oct 28th 2013, 03:17 PM
1 Peter 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

1 Peter 2:7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, 8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

Peter differentiates those who believe with those who are disobedient. The kind of 'believing' that saves is a believing that obeys God and follows his commandments through the Spirit. The power to fully do so is available in Christ Jesus.

:thumbsup:.........................

SavedByGraceByFait
Oct 28th 2013, 07:46 PM
:thumbsup:.........................

1 Peter 1:22 and 1 Peter 2:7
obeying the truth means to believe the truth of the gospel.

Paul is the apostle of the Gentiles.
Romans 11:13
For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

Paul wrote:

2 Timothy 2:7
Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things.

A good way to understand those 2 verses is - uncle Paul explains it all.

So uncle Paul explains what it means to obey the gospel.

Romans 10:16-17
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

The report mentioned is Isaiah 53 which describes Jesus Christ paying for our sins.
It is just a report to be believed not a set of commandments to follow.

Paul gives the fully revealed report to be believed for salvation.

1 Corinthians 15:1-4
1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

episkopos
Oct 28th 2013, 08:01 PM
1 Peter 1:22 and 1 Peter 2:7
obeying the truth means to believe the truth of the gospel.

Demons do that. It means to obey the message of the gospel...to forsake our lives and be renewed in Christ. Demons, and many who profess Christ as well...don't do that.

SavedByGraceByFait
Oct 28th 2013, 10:50 PM
Demons do that. It means to obey the message of the gospel...to forsake our lives and be renewed in Christ. Demons, and many who profess Christ as well...don't do that.

It means to actually believe the gospel of salvation.

Paul is the apostle of the Gentiles.
Romans 11:13
For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

Paul wrote:

2 Timothy 2:7
Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things.

A good way to understand those 2 verses is - uncle Paul explains it all.

So uncle Paul explains what it means to obey the gospel.

Romans 10:16-17
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

The report mentioned is Isaiah 53 which describes Jesus Christ paying for our sins.
It is just a report to be believed not a set of commandments to follow.

Paul gives the fully revealed report to be believed for salvation.

1 Corinthians 15:1-4
1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:


BTW. Satan and the devils do not believe that Jesus Christ died for their sins.
Satan and the devils do not believe they are saved just by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

So my belief in no way at all matches Satan and the devils.

keck553
Oct 28th 2013, 11:10 PM
You don't think satan knew what Jesus was fulfilling on the cross? Really? Really?

IF satan doesn't know Jesus was born of a virgin, lived a sinless life, died for our sins, was buried and resurrected, then why would he deceive so many Christians into believing false doctrines like "salvation apart from renewal?"

SavedByGraceByFait
Oct 29th 2013, 12:18 AM
You don't think satan knew what Jesus was fulfilling on the cross? Really? Really?

IF satan doesn't know Jesus was born of a virgin, lived a sinless life, died for our sins, was buried and resurrected, then why would he deceive so many Christians into believing false doctrines like "salvation apart from renewal?"

Who are you talking to?

keck553
Oct 29th 2013, 02:29 AM
Who are you talking to?

I am talking to you

SavedByGraceByFait
Oct 29th 2013, 02:32 AM
Who are you talking to?

Your reasoning is flawed

keck553
Oct 29th 2013, 04:19 AM
Your reasoning is flawed

You reveal much about yourself - more than you think.
You are not responding with maturity and wisdom.

And that is a testimony to your spiritual maturity also.

SavedByGraceByFait
Oct 29th 2013, 10:13 AM
You reveal much about yourself - more than you think.
You are not responding with maturity and wisdom.

And that is a testimony to your spiritual maturity also.

You should try to just discuss the topic unless of course you have nothing to back your theory.

keck553
Oct 29th 2013, 04:31 PM
You should try to just discuss the topic unless of course you have nothing to back your theory.

I have been for 9 pages now, but you seem to be listening only to yourself and demeaning others who are trying their best to help you.

Have you stopped to consider that sinning is also a work that abides in satan? You only have two choices in this world. Either your works serve Christ or they serve satan. Pick one.

SavedByGraceByFait
Oct 29th 2013, 04:36 PM
I have been for 9 pages now, but you seem to be listening only to yourself and demeaning others who are trying their best to help you.

Have you stopped to consider that sinning is also a work that abides in satan? You only have two choices in this world. Either your works serve Christ or they serve satan. Pick one.


Salvation is by grace through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and His shed blood on the cross. It is not of works. Paul, the apostle of the Gentiles (Romans 11:13), wrote the following. Obviously works are not needed for salvation since it explicitly says so in verse 9.

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

The only belief that does not count is a false belief. The following passages show that a works based or merit based belief does not count. You must believe that you are justly under God's damnation for sin and that nothing can save you except simple faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Romans 4:5
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

keck553
Oct 29th 2013, 05:19 PM
Salvation is by grace through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and His shed blood on the cross. It is not of works. Paul, the apostle of the Gentiles (Romans 11:13), wrote the following. Obviously works are not needed for salvation since it explicitly says so in verse 9.

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

The only belief that does not count is a false belief. The following passages show that a works based or merit based belief does not count. You must believe that you are justly under God's damnation for sin and that nothing can save you except simple faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Romans 4:5
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

No one here disagrees that we are saved by grace through faith. Not one person. I must have said this four times now, yet you persist. Why? Are you in doubt about something? It just seems that way.?.but it's difficult to have real communication through a keyboard.....let me try this..

Do you believe this statement?

"The one who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, will have streams of living water flow from deep within him."

SavedByGraceByFait
Oct 29th 2013, 05:48 PM
No one here disagrees that we are saved by grace through faith. Not one person. I must have said this four times now, yet you persist. Why? Are you in doubt about something? It just seems that way.?.but it's difficult to have real communication through a keyboard.....let me try this..

Do you believe this statement?

"The one who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, will have streams of living water flow from deep within him."

The topic is salvation is not by works.
So why are you even debating me on this if that is what you believe?
Either you believe not by works or not.

I am already saved forever by the shed blood of Jesus Christ, my Lord and Saviour.

As to the verse you just quoted, of course I believe it. Here is the full passage. It shows salvation is just by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and that salvation is a one time event and is guaranteed forever.

John 7:37-39
37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

mikebr
Oct 29th 2013, 07:08 PM
No, you misread Boo.

He didn't say works saved us. He said works were commanded of us (us who? us Christians). You said it, too, in your quote from Ephesians.

Boo is saying that while many Christians enjoy the grace of God, many ignore the work He has prepared for us to do.

So what happens when we don't work? and who determines when we have worked? and when we have done enough?

episkopos
Oct 29th 2013, 07:11 PM
So what happens when we don't work? and who determines when we have worked? and when we have done enough?

Our task is to believe our way into God's presence. That is enough...

SavedByGraceByFait
Oct 29th 2013, 07:34 PM
No, you misread Boo.

He didn't say works saved us. He said works were commanded of us (us who? us Christians). You said it, too, in your quote from Ephesians.

Boo is saying that while many Christians enjoy the grace of God, many ignore the work He has prepared for us to do.

The topic is about works FOR salvation.

Here is what I have been saying.
Works of any kind are not needed for salvation.
In fact, if someone is trusting in works of any kind to earn salvation, then will not be saved.
Also works of any kind are not needed to maintain salvation.
But after salvation, the saved should do good works. They are the result of salvation by the Holy Spirit working within the saved.

Is that what you believe?
If not please describe where we differ.

Redeemed by Grace
Oct 29th 2013, 09:34 PM
The topic is about works FOR salvation.

Here is what I have been saying.
Works of any kind are not needed for salvation.
In fact, if someone is trusting in works of any kind to earn salvation, then will not be saved.
Also works of any kind are not needed to maintain salvation.
But after salvation, the saved should do good works. They are the result of salvation by the Holy Spirit working within the saved.

Is that what you believe?
If not please describe where we differ.

Amen... But I see scripture taking it a step further....

Ephesians 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

keck553
Oct 29th 2013, 10:35 PM
The topic is about works FOR salvation.

Here is what I have been saying.
Works of any kind are not needed for salvation.
In fact, if someone is trusting in works of any kind to earn salvation, then will not be saved.
Also works of any kind are not needed to maintain salvation.
But after salvation, the saved should do good works. They are the result of salvation by the Holy Spirit working within the saved.

Is that what you believe?
If not please describe where we differ.

Tell us what a person's life looks like from salvation forward. Does that abide in Christ or does that person abide in sin?

SavedByGraceByFait
Oct 29th 2013, 10:42 PM
Tell us what a person's life looks like from salvation forward. Does that abide in Christ or does that person abide in sin?

The person abides in Christ
However the flesh can still sin.

Paul wrote the following while saved. The verbs are in the present tense.
If Paul could not keep his flesh from sinning neither can you.

Romans 7:14-25
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

TBM 11
Oct 29th 2013, 11:05 PM
No one here disagrees that we are saved by grace through faith. Not one person. I must have said this four times now, yet you persist. Why? Are you in doubt about something? It just seems that way.?.but it's difficult to have real communication through a keyboard.....let me try this..

Do you believe this statement?

"The one who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, will have streams of living water flow from deep within him."

If you believe we are saved by grace through faith, why do you think that same faith doesn't keep you saved? It is not performance based to be saved, so why is it so hard to believe performance doesn't keep us saved? I am sure you think I am trying to be argumentative, maybe even hateful. I hope I am not coming across that way. I/we are sincerely trying to work this out with people here so that eyes can be opened. Not pointing fingers trying to prove someone wrong.

Bandit
Oct 30th 2013, 12:24 AM
If you believe we are saved by grace through faith, why do you think that same faith doesn't keep you saved? It is not performance based to be saved, so why is it so hard to believe performance doesn't keep us saved? I am sure you think I am trying to be argumentative, maybe even hateful. I hope I am not coming across that way. I/we are sincerely trying to work this out with people here so that eyes can be opened. Not pointing fingers trying to prove someone wrong.

Hello TBM,

So how do Jesus' words, "Why do you call Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?," fit into your scheme? So is not Jesus saying that these persons are not doing what He expects. If His expectations require no actual behavioral action/reaction, then on what basis can He say these persons are not doing what He commands? Yea, I think some eyes need to be opened. So what does Jesus command? What is your reading of the Sermon on the Mount?

TBM 11
Oct 30th 2013, 12:58 AM
Hello TBM,

So how do Jesus' words, "Why do you call Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?," fit into your scheme? So is not Jesus saying that these persons are not doing what He expects. If His expectations require no actual behavioral action/reaction, then on what basis can He say these persons are not doing what He commands? Yea, I think some eyes need to be opened. So what does Jesus command? What is your reading of the Sermon on the Mount?

I understand what you are saying. How do you think they were not doing what He was expecting? In other words, what was He expecting? He was expecting belief, which they had not believed.

What do you think about the people that Paul was speaking to at Corinth? 1Corinthians 3:1 Are they believers?

Bandit
Oct 30th 2013, 01:21 AM
I understand what you are saying. How do you think they were not doing what He was expecting? In other words, what was He expecting? He was expecting belief, which they had not believed.

What do you think about the people that Paul was speaking to at Corinth? 1Corinthians 3:1 Are they believers?

From the Sermon on the Mount (which repeats much of the instruction in Luke 6), we should understand that Jesus expected adherence to, and acceptance of, His teachings. To believe Jesus meant (at least to Him) an acceptance of His teachings. So how can one define a 'belief' in Jesus apart from His teachings? Would not this constitute a 'belief' in 'another' Jesus?

TBM 11
Oct 30th 2013, 01:27 AM
From the Sermon on the Mount (which repeats much of the instruction in Luke 6), we should understand that Jesus expected adherence to, and acceptance of, His teachings. To believe Jesus meant (at least to Him) an acceptance of His teachings. So how can one define a 'belief' in Jesus apart from His teachings? Would not this constitute a 'belief' in 'another' Jesus?

There is only one Jesus. The point being made in this topic is that salvation is apart from works. If you are trying to use this reference of scripture to disagree, then I am asking you about 1Cor. 3:1. Were the people Paul was talking to saved?

Bandit
Oct 30th 2013, 01:40 AM
There is only one Jesus. The point being made in this topic is that salvation is apart from works. If you are trying to use this reference of scripture to disagree, then I am asking you about 1Cor. 3:1. Were the people Paul was talking to saved?

If one reads the Book of 1st Corinthians carefully, one should come to realize that many there were on the path to apostasy. Paul is attempting to keep them from falling away. Their behavior was out of line with the teachings of Jesus. This then brings us back to the foundational teachings of Jesus. Why call Him 'LORD' if one does not live according to His teachings?

TBM 11
Oct 30th 2013, 01:43 AM
If one reads the Book of 1st Corinthians carefully, one should come to realize that many there were on the path to apostasy. Paul is attempting to keep them from falling away. Their behavior was out of line with the teachings of Jesus. This then brings us back to the foundational teachings of Jesus. Why call Him 'LORD' if one does not live according to His teachings?

Lets not drift away from the scripture in 3:1 just yet. Were the people Paul was talking to saved in your opinion? Yes/no?

Bandit
Oct 30th 2013, 01:53 AM
Lets not drift away from the scripture in 3:1 just yet. Were the people Paul was talking to saved in your opinion? Yes/no?

If you assume 'saved' means destined for heaven without any chance of falling away, then, no, these persons were not saved. Have you not read Paul's words concerning those in ancient Israel during the Exodus? Paul goes through this in the 1st part of chapter 10. Many who were delivered from bondage in Egypt did not enter into the promised land because of their persistent unfaithfulness. This is a warning to those in the church to not fail in similar fashion. Those who are presently 'saved' are 'in transit', so to speak; such persons can 'jump ship'.

TBM 11
Oct 30th 2013, 02:03 AM
If you assume 'saved' means destined for heaven without any chance of falling away, then, no, these persons were not saved. Have you not read Paul's words concerning those in ancient Israel during the Exodus? Paul goes through this in the 1st part of chapter 10. Many who were delivered from bondage in Egypt did not enter into the promised land because of their persistent unfaithfulness. This is a warning to those in the church to not fail in similar fashion. Those who are presently 'saved' are 'in transit', so to speak; such persons can 'jump ship'.

No sir, scripture does not teach that. To look at your reference of the people led from Egypt, they were told at one point, (forgive me for not giving the scripture) to look on the serpent figure to save themselves from the fire serpents that were biting and killing them. A shadow of Jesus. In verse one of Corinthians, Paul is encouraging them to grow and produce fruit for the Lord. In 10-15 of the same chapter he tells them in vs 11 that no man can lay a foundation other than Jesus. What they built upon that foundation they would recieve rewards in heaven for. In verse 15 he tells them that if there works were burned up they would suffer loss, BUT THEY THEMSELVES WOULD BE SAVED.

Luke 7:50 Jesus tells a woman, "your FAITH has saved you, go in peace." Didn't tell her to go get baptized, go do good stuff for me, simply go in peace.

Bandit
Oct 30th 2013, 02:05 AM
No sir, scripture does not teach that.

You are not reading 1st Corinthians 10 from an honest heart. Shame on you.

TBM 11
Oct 30th 2013, 02:08 AM
You are not reading 1st Corinthians 10 from an honest heart. Shame on you.

LOL if you say so. Would you like to see the rest of the verses I have for you? Most have already been given in this thread, but I don't mind going through it again if you will do it with an open heart, one that is not hardened.

Bandit
Oct 30th 2013, 02:23 AM
LOL if you say so. Would you like to see the rest of the verses I have for you? Most have already been given in this thread, but I don't mind going through it again if you will do it with an open heart, one that is not hardened.


Hello TBM,

I don't think I need "to see the rest of the verses I have for you", but since you are the one who brought up 1st Corinthians, I would like to see you deal with 1st Corinthians. Paul points out in chapter 10 (actually leads into it in the latter part of 9) that apostasy is a real possibility - and he uses ancient Israel during the Exodus as his example. They were 'saved' from bondage, passed through the water (a symbol of baptism) and partook of the Rock in the desert, yet still, most did not enter in. So what happened? Did Paul not explain this? You were the one who brought up 1st Corinthians as a defense - so if it so solidly defends your position, why the sudden need to jump to these other verses?

TBM 11
Oct 30th 2013, 02:27 AM
Hello TBM,

I don't think I need "to see the rest of the verses I have for you", but since you are the one who brought up 1st Corinthians, I would like to see you deal with 1st Corinthians. Paul points out in chapter 10 (actually leads into it in the latter part of 9) that apostasy is a real possibility - and he uses ancient Israel during the Exodus as his example. They were 'saved' from bondage, passed through the water (a symbol of baptism) and partook of the Rock in the desert, yet still, most did not enter in. So what happened? Did Paul not explain this? You were the one who brought up 1st Corinthians as a defense - so if it so solidly defends your position, why the sudden need to jump to these other verses?

What is your definition of apostacy?

Curtis
Oct 30th 2013, 02:27 AM
Please allow me to suggest something here. We are all up in arms about works, faith, salvation with out works, salvation with works ect ect. I believe that faith alone is all God needs from us to be eternally saved, because the Lord see's us doing his word from his perspective. He already knows every thing we are going to do before we do it, but we don't. From the Kingdom of God's view faith alone rules, but from this earthly perspective we need something that tells us we are God's elect, and not only to us but to others as well. Works is something we think that has to do with doing something, and that is true sometimes. Sometimes not doing something is working. For instance, We are told not to worry about what we are going to eat, wear, or drink so not worrying when you are believing is working when you are not worrying! This is works.
It is very interesting what Jesus said about works...........

Joh 6:27 Do not work for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you. For on him God the Father has set his seal."
Joh 6:28 Then they said to him, "What must we do, to be doing the works of God?"
Joh 6:29 Jesus answered them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent."

Works, working is believing the Word of God. It takes work to believe. How so? Just ask any Christian, "Do you believe you are right now sitting in Heavenly places in Christ"? Most will say no. Why? Because it takes work to overcome the flesh so we can believe this truth. No body could believe this to be reality unless they have overcome their flesh, because the flesh can not receive the things of the Spirit of God for they are foolishness, neither can he know them for they are spiritually understood.

Just a thought.

TBM 11
Oct 30th 2013, 02:39 AM
Please allow me to suggest something here. We are all up in arms about works, faith, salvation with out works, salvation with works ect ect. I believe that faith alone is all God needs from us to be eternally saved, because the Lord see's us doing his word from his perspective. He already knows every thing we are going to do before we do it, but we don't. From the Kingdom of God's view faith alone rules, but from this earthly perspective we need something that tells us we are God's elect, and not only to us but to others as well. Works is something we think that has to do with doing something, and that is true sometimes. Sometimes not doing something is working. For instance, We are told not to worry about what we are going to eat, wear, or drink so not worrying when you are believing is working when you are not worrying! This is works.
It is very interesting what Jesus said about works...........

Joh 6:27 Do not work for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you. For on him God the Father has set his seal."
Joh 6:28 Then they said to him, "What must we do, to be doing the works of God?"
Joh 6:29 Jesus answered them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent."

Works, working is believing the Word of God. It takes work to believe. How so? Just ask any Christian, "Do you believe you are right now sitting in Heavenly places in Christ"? Most will say no. Why? Because to takes work to overcome the flesh so we can believe this truth. No body could believe this reality unless they have overcome their flesh, because the flesh can not receive the things of the Spirit of god for they are foolishness, neither can he know them for they are spiritually understood.

Just a thought.

Amen and Amen!!! We can not begin to know how to fight off all the demons around us that are constantly at work without faith in Him! We can't grow in Christ unless we first understand that it is faith in Him alone. We need to be getting off of milk on on solid food! Good post Curtis!

Bandit
Oct 30th 2013, 02:43 AM
What is your definition of apostacy?

How about we take Paul's example of ancient Israel in 1st Corinthians for starters. So what is your understanding of it?

WhiteHorseRider
Oct 30th 2013, 03:49 AM
[QUOTE=SavedByGraceByFait;3061494]Sure. If a person who does not trust in Jesus Christ and His shed blood for their salvation, they pay for their sins in hell.[/QUOTE
What if they trust but do not work? "I believe in Jesus. I trust His name." Now I am saved. Nothing else. That's what you're are saying. You said it. That was your answer. Now, if you try to define trust, you better pause. Why? Because you want us to accept your definition of trust. Instead of throwing a thousand verses with the word faith, why don't you slow and let people answer.

Boo
Oct 30th 2013, 09:35 AM
[QUOTE=SavedByGraceByFait;3061494]Sure. If a person who does not trust in Jesus Christ and His shed blood for their salvation, they pay for their sins in hell.[/QUOTE
What if they trust but do not work? "I believe in Jesus. I trust His name." Now I am saved. Nothing else. That's what you're are saying. You said it. That was your answer. Now, if you try to define trust, you better pause. Why? Because you want us to accept your definition of trust. Instead of throwing a thousand verses with the word faith, why don't you slow and let people answer.

Actually, people have been answering. He just won't address those answers. He has been asked questions that he won't answer.

He is not here to listen to us. He (or she) intends to teach. What I am seeing is not a conversation.

SavedByGraceByFait
Oct 30th 2013, 10:52 AM
[QUOTE=WhiteHorseRider;3064187]

Actually, people have been answering. He just won't address those answers. He has been asked questions that he won't answer.

He is not here to listen to us. He (or she) intends to teach. What I am seeing is not a conversation.

I only posted "Sure. If a person who does not trust in Jesus Christ and His shed blood for their salvation, they pay for their sins in hell."

Who are you talking about?
I am answering questions.

TBM 11
Oct 30th 2013, 12:18 PM
How about we take Paul's example of ancient Israel in 1st Corinthians for starters. So what is your understanding of it?

My understanding of ancient Israel is that it was under the covenant of Law. We are under the covenant of grace. We have to remember that (grace) while speaking of events in Corinthians. Before the law, Israel was under the same type grace. As they left Egypt everything they needed was provided for. None died nor were they feeble. Just after receiving the law, people started dropping like flies.

Paul was encouraging the people of Corinth to live for the glory of God. He was not telling them that they would lose their salvation, in fact, he told them they WOULDN'T lose their salvation (1 Cor. 3:15). What he did tell them was they would lose rewards (3:15).

Bandit I am not trying to argue. I am simply trying to show you, as several have been trying to show those participating in this thread, that our salvation is given the second we believe in our hearts and confess with our mouths that our faith is in Jesus for our salvation. There are just too many clear verses supporting that. The Holy Spirit showed me this back in Feb. of this year and it was that revelation to me that changed my life forever. I had been of the same belief as many here and when I was given this revelation, I spent several months searching the scriptures and watching church programs on tv trying to find any piece of evidence that I could find. I found several of the scriptures that others have brought up here, but with some study on them they were easily struck down as being credible to any other view than what I had learned. The whole time I was searching, the more evidence I found that what I was shown that day was actually true. I can honestly say that I was searching with an open mind, because I was eager to share this with people and I wanted to make sure it was correct. I encourage you to search the scriptures with an open mind as well. How can the Holy Spirit work within us unless we lose our fleshly opinions, and study Gods word in the spirit? Blessings

keck553
Oct 30th 2013, 01:50 PM
Is it reasonable that someone who thinks they believe in Jesus but continue to do works in service of satan to expect they are saved?

SavedByGraceByFait
Oct 30th 2013, 02:02 PM
Is it reasonable that someone who thinks they believe in Jesus but continue to do works in service of satan to expect they are saved?

You have a nebulous term "continue to do works in service of satan"

Do you just mean sin?

Paul said his flesh still sinned in Romans 7:14-25
John worshipped an angel in Revelation 19 and 22.
Are you saying that they are not saved?

Do you always keep all of God's commands perfectly?
If not are you continuing to do works in service of satan?

Those that oppose the gospel of salvation continue to do works in service of satan.

Curtis
Oct 30th 2013, 03:22 PM
Is it reasonable that someone who thinks they believe in Jesus but continue to do works in service of satan to expect they are saved?

Jesus spoke about some people like that in the parable of the sower. There are four different types of people in the Church toady. one who hears the Word but does not understand it/ Satan steals the Word from them, they never produced any fruit. 2 person receives the Word with joy, but because of tribulation, and persecution because of the Word they endure for a while and then fall away. the 3rd person is the scariest of them all....

Mat 13:22 As for what was sown among thorns, this is the one who hears the word, but the cares of the world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and it proves unfruitful.

These people never fall away, but they also never produce fruit either!! These are people who go to Church most likely their whole lives, and they never fall away but they also never get saved. They think they are saved but are not. I wonder what the percentage of people are like this in our Church's today.

The 4 th person is the only one who never falls away, and produces fruit.

keck553
Oct 30th 2013, 03:39 PM
You have a nebulous term "continue to do works in service of satan"

Do you just mean sin?

Paul said his flesh still sinned in Romans 7:14-25

Pauls is referring to his problem when he was under the Law. Are you under the Law?



John worshipped an angel in Revelation 19 and 22.
Are you saying that they are not saved?

The Bible is full of people who prostrated before angels. The angels identify themselves as creations and that ends the confusion. Mistakes aren't WILLFULL SIN.



Do you always keep all of God's commands perfectly?
If not are you continuing to do works in service of satan?

I choose the obey God and the Spirit brings me to victory, so no, I do not willfully live a sinful lifestyle. That is called "being sanctified." Paul called it "renewing your mind."

If you study Hebrew, you will realize God has three different terms for "sin." Unfortuantely it is all one word in our English Bibles. I am not addressing two of these, I am addressing rebellion against God's commands (intentionally living a sinful lifestyle).

Do you intentionally live a sinful lifestyle? You know what that is, everyone does. If so, you are doing the works of satan.

Those who refuse to acknowledge the New Creation brought forth by salvation and continue to live like the "old man" are not only denying God's works, but are doing the works of satan.

SavedByGraceByFait
Oct 30th 2013, 03:42 PM
Jesus spoke about some people like that in the parable of the sower. There are four different types of people in the Church toady. one who hears the Word but does not understand it/ Satan steals the Word from them, they never produced any fruit. 2 person receives the Word with joy, but because of tribulation, and persecution because of the Word they endure for a while and then fall away. the 3rd person is the scariest of them all....

Mat 13:22 As for what was sown among thorns, this is the one who hears the word, but the cares of the world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and it proves unfruitful.

These people never fall away, but they also never produce fruit either!! These are people who go to Church most likely their whole lives, and they never fall away but they also never get saved. They think they are saved but are not. I wonder what the percentage of people are like this in our Church's today.

The 4 th person is the only one who never falls away, and produces fruit.

The key to the parable of the sower is this verse. So those that get saved forever are those that believe the gospel of salvation just by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and His shed blood.

Luke 8:12
Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

keck553
Oct 30th 2013, 03:48 PM
Jesus spoke about some people like that in the parable of the sower. There are four different types of people in the Church toady. one who hears the Word but does not understand it/ Satan steals the Word from them, they never produced any fruit. 2 person receives the Word with joy, but because of tribulation, and persecution because of the Word they endure for a while and then fall away. the 3rd person is the scariest of them all....

Mat 13:22 As for what was sown among thorns, this is the one who hears the word, but the cares of the world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and it proves unfruitful.

These people never fall away, but they also never produce fruit either!! These are people who go to Church most likely their whole lives, and they never fall away but they also never get saved. They think they are saved but are not. I wonder what the percentage of people are like this in our Church's today.

The 4 th person is the only one who never falls away, and produces fruit.

Yes, that is a real problem. And I think it is because some churches would rather have attendees than converts. They water down the gospel because the true gospel confronts people with their sin, and that offends many. So in an effort to fill their pews they candy coat the gospel and create "converts twice as ready for hell as they are."

In your parable, Jesus is speaking of people who are under the Law, is He not? At the time, the prophect of Joel had not been fulfilled. I do not believe Christians who are really saved and really regenerated "fall away." I believe they were never saved in the first place, and their perception of salvation is merely a mind exercise. Countless Mormons, Muslims and people of other religions are saved in their own minds. But they are not saved by God. That is the danger.

The medicine has been watered down so much by false prophets it will not longer cure the disease.

We need real evangelism in our own churches.

SavedByGraceByFait
Oct 30th 2013, 03:52 PM
Yes, that is a real problem. And I think it is because some churches would rather have attendees than converts. They water down the gospel because the true gospel confronts people with their sin, and that offends many. So in an effort to fill their pews they candy coat the gospel and create "converts" twice as ready for hell as they are.

I do not believe Christians who are really saved and really regenerated "fall away." Like yourself, I believe they were never saved in the first place, and their perception of salvation is merely a mind exercise. Countless Mormons, Muslims and people of other religions are saved in their own minds. But they are not saved by God. That is the danger.

The medicine has been watered down so much by false prophets it will not longer cure the disease.

We need real evangelism in our own churches.

It is true that there are many churches which do value attendees over converts and do water down the gospel.

But I disagree as to how the gospel of salvation is being watered down.

The real gospel of salvation says that there is no salvation for those trusting in works or merit for salvation.
The attendees love that flattery of how wonderful they are.

Jesus Christ said this about works for salvation, Most would leave their church with that preaching.

John 7:7
The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil.

Jade99
Oct 30th 2013, 03:54 PM
Yes, that is a real problem. And I think it is because some churches would rather have attendees than converts. They water down the gospel because the true gospel confronts people with their sin, and that offends many. So in an effort to fill their pews they candy coat the gospel and create "converts twice as ready for hell as they are."

In your parable, Jesus is speaking of people who are under the Law, is He not? At the time, the prophect of Joel had not been fulfilled. I do not believe Christians who are really saved and really regenerated "fall away." I believe they were never saved in the first place, and their perception of salvation is merely a mind exercise. Countless Mormons, Muslims and people of other religions are saved in their own minds. But they are not saved by God. That is the danger.

The medicine has been watered down so much by false prophets it will not longer cure the disease.

We need real evangelism in our own churches.

This is so true. Especially when they say, I'm already saved or I'm already a Christian, because I attend such and such church or I grew up in a such and such church or (my fav) my parents were Christians; I'm already saved, because I'm Catholic, JW, Pentecostal, etc.

I usually just mumble to myself "Good luck with that."

SavedByGraceByFait
Oct 30th 2013, 03:59 PM
This is so true. Especially when they say, I'm already saved or I'm already a Christian, because I attend such and such church or I grew up in a such and such church or (my fav) my parents were Christians; I'm already saved, because I'm Catholic, JW, Pentecostal, etc.

I usually just mumble to myself "Good luck with that."

None of the saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ say that. That is silly.

I am saved forever by the shed blood of the Lord Jesus Christ.

As to earning or meriting salvation as you seem to be proposing, I would say good luck with that, but it is impossible, so why lie.

Jade99
Oct 30th 2013, 04:00 PM
It is true that there are many churches which do value attendees over converts and do water down the gospel.

But I disagree as to how the gospel of salvation is being watered down.

The real gospel of salvation says that there is no salvation for those trusting in works or merit for salvation.
The attendees love that flattery of how wonderful they are.

Jesus Christ said this about works for salvation, Most would leave their church with that preaching.

John 7:7
The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil.

It's a popular mega church in my area (well it's not like Saddleback or Joel Osteen church) but I've seen people that I know proudly proclaim that they go to this church like it's a membership to Sam's Club or something. Then they'll say (my grandma is famous for this) chile that preacher preached a good sermon. Ask them what the sermon was about and they can't tell you. Some people get caught up in the noise and don't even pay attention to the gospel being preached, if any.

TheDivineWatermark
Oct 30th 2013, 04:00 PM
Pauls is referring to his problem when he was under the Law. Are you under the Law?


[Romans 7] Paul is describing a time in his Christian life, when he had not yet realized/understood that "the law of the Spirit of LIFE in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death." (Romans 8:2)

SavedByGraceByFait
Oct 30th 2013, 04:03 PM
Pauls is referring to his problem when he was under the Law. Are you under the Law?



The Bible is full of people who prostrated before angels. The angels identify themselves as creations and that ends the confusion. Mistakes aren't WILLFULL SIN.



I choose the obey God and the Spirit brings me to victory, so no, I do not willfully live a sinful lifestyle. That is called "being sanctified." Paul called it "renewing your mind."

If you study Hebrew, you will realize God has three different terms for "sin." Unfortuantely it is all one word in our English Bibles. I am not addressing two of these, I am addressing rebellion against God's commands (intentionally living a sinful lifestyle).

Do you intentionally live a sinful lifestyle? You know what that is, everyone does. If so, you are doing the works of satan.

Those who refuse to acknowledge the New Creation brought forth by salvation and continue to live like the "old man" are not only denying God's works, but are doing the works of satan.

Paul was saved and the verbs are present tense. So you are incorrect and trying to change the word of God. Paul used the present tense. You cannot change the verb tenses.

It said John worshipped the angel. That is a sin. So you are incorrect again and trying to chnage the word of God.

You danced around a direct question.

Do you always keep all of God's commands perfectly?
Yes or no

Jade99
Oct 30th 2013, 04:03 PM
None of the saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ say that. That is silly.

I am saved forever by the shed blood of the Lord Jesus Christ.

As to earning or meriting salvation as you seem to be proposing, I would say good luck with that, but it is impossible, so why lie.

Sweetheart, you have to learn how to read when before you post.

Not one time in my post did I say anything about proposing to anyone about earning salvation or anything like that. No I didn't.

I was agreeing and giving examples of what some people who already think they are saved would say. Seriously, read thoroughly next time or at least ask for a clearer explanation.

Seriously, I think some people on these forums are so quick to make their point (even myself) to be right that they can't bother to read, before they comment or jump to conclusions to the point of wrongly accusing.

SavedByGraceByFait
Oct 30th 2013, 04:06 PM
Sweetheart, you have to learn how to read when before you post.

Not one time in my post did I say anything about proposing to anyone about earning salvation or anything like that. No I didn't.

I was agreeing and giving examples of what some people who already think they are saved would say. Seriously, read thoroughly next time or at least ask for a clearer explanation.

I read just fine. You just try to dance around the issues.

Are you saved just by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ?

Jesus Christ said "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life." (John 6:47)

Is Jesus Christ telling the truth?
yes or no?

keck553
Oct 30th 2013, 04:06 PM
This is so true. Especially when they say, I'm already saved or I'm already a Christian, because I attend such and such church or I grew up in a such and such church or (my fav) my parents were Christians; I'm already saved, because I'm Catholic, JW, Pentecostal, etc.

I usually just mumble to myself "Good luck with that."

And I did that for 30 miserable years. I know the sower's parable, because I lived it.

The sower's parable is for people who depend on their own strength and do not depend on the power of the Holy Spirit for victory. True salvation means we can trust God's promise no to let us go, and we no longer need to fear falling away.

Jade99
Oct 30th 2013, 04:09 PM
I read just fine. You just try to dance around the issues.

Are you saved just by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ?

Jesus Christ said "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life." (John 6:47)

Is Jesus Christ telling the truth?
yes or no?

Apparently you can't because you're so quick to say that I'm proposing something that I have not and have never done on these boards.

In fact anyone one of the regular people on here can tell you my track record on this board and that I'm dead serious about anything concerning salvation. Don't try to play that game with me, because hmmmmmmmm. Let me pray, because you done got my blood pressure raised up.


Get over yourself, for real, for real.

TheDivineWatermark
Oct 30th 2013, 04:14 PM
Paul was encouraging the people of Corinth to live for the glory of God. He was not telling them that they would lose their salvation, in fact, he told them they WOULDN'T lose their salvation (1 Cor. 3:15). What he did tell them was they would lose rewards (3:15).


I agree....... :thumbsup:

I also believe that "the promised land" is not a picture of our "destination heaven," but of possessing (walking and operating in) all that our Lord has obtained for us ("given us") in His "salvation package" NOW, so to speak (as much as is possible, NOW... and which, of course, also includes being "with Him" in glorified bodies in the future).

(Obadiah 1:17b)

keck553
Oct 30th 2013, 04:15 PM
Apparently you can't because you're so quick to say that I'm proposing something that I have not and have never done on these boards.

In fact anyone one of the regular people on here can tell you my track record on this board and that I'm dead serious about anything concerning salvation. Don't try to play that game with me, because hmmmmmmmm. Let me pray, because you done got my blood pressure raised up.


Get over yourself, for real, for real.

I'll testify that what you said is true.

Jade99
Oct 30th 2013, 04:18 PM
I'll testify that what you said is true.

Thank you Keck! :)

keck553
Oct 30th 2013, 04:38 PM
Thank you Keck! :)

Your welcome, but I consider it an honor to be a witness.

Curtis
Oct 30th 2013, 04:40 PM
The key to the parable of the sower is this verse. So those that get saved forever are those that believe the gospel of salvation just by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and His shed blood.

Luke 8:12
Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

I agree, the only person of these four that are saved are the ones who hear the Word and understand it. All the others never bring forth fruit to salvation.

keck553
Oct 30th 2013, 04:47 PM
I agree, the only person of these four that are saved are the ones who hear the Word and understand it. All the others never bring forth fruit to salvation.

What is fruit? (just so we all can agree and finally wrap this thread up)

episkopos
Oct 30th 2013, 05:02 PM
The key to the parable of the sower is this verse. So those that get saved forever are those that believe the gospel of salvation just by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and His shed blood.

Luke 8:12
Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

Plainly ridiculous. The parable shows that lip service without consecration and surrender to Christ causes one to be unfruitful in the purpose of God. You have the lesson backwards. We are not saved by a mental assent of anything...

Curtis
Oct 30th 2013, 05:07 PM
What is fruit? (just so we all can agree and finally wrap this thread up)

If we have to tell someone we are a Christian, chances are we are not. It should be obvious to all. God's light dwelling within a believer can never be hidden, either from the world or other Christians.
Jesus said you shall know them by their fruits. The life of God changes everything about them. The way they work, talk, act, think. I work for Home Depot, and I can tell immediately when fellow believer walks into the store.

SavedByGraceByFait
Oct 30th 2013, 05:20 PM
Plainly ridiculous. The parable shows that lip service without consecration and surrender to Christ causes one to be unfruitful in the purpose of God. You have the lesson backwards. We are not saved by a mental assent of anything...

Actually Jesus Christ said that believing is salvation in the very explanation of the parable.

Luke 8:12
Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

episkopos
Oct 30th 2013, 05:54 PM
Actually Jesus Christ said that believing is salvation in the very explanation of the parable.

Luke 8:12
Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

The one who received the word among the weeds was saved...but his deeds were unfruitful because he was too involved in living in this present world. He never forsook the Lord in his words...just his works...

SavedByGraceByFait
Oct 30th 2013, 05:58 PM
The one who received the word among the weeds was saved...but his deeds were unfruitful because he was too involved in living in this present world. He never forsook the Lord in his words...just his works...

That is just your theory. But Jesus Christ told you who gets saved. It is those that believe and it is the only thing mentioned.

Actually Jesus Christ said that believing is salvation in the very explanation of the parable.

Luke 8:12
Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

episkopos
Oct 30th 2013, 06:03 PM
That is just your theory. But Jesus Christ told you who gets saved. It is those that believe and it is the only thing mentioned.


My "theory" is what is in the bible. The cares of this world. Do you know what that means...do you have a theory on that?


Actually Jesus Christ said that believing is salvation in the very explanation of the parable.

No. DOERS are saved. Have you ever read about the parable of the builders (whether on the rock or on the sand)? Look it up...


Luke 8:12
Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

You are making one category fit all by your theories. Do you even care that you are wrong? Is this all you have to offer? Is that why you don't want to listen?

SavedByGraceByFait
Oct 30th 2013, 06:06 PM
My "theory" is what is in the bible. The cares of this world. Do you know what that means...do you have a theory on that?



No. DOERS are saved. Have you ever read about the parable of the builders (whether on the rock or on the sand)? Look it up...



You are making one category fit all by your theories. Do you even care that you are wrong? Is this all you have to offer? Is that why you don't want to listen?

I am just preaching what the Holy Bible clearly says that salvation is just by faith.

Actually Jesus Christ said that believing is salvation in the very explanation of the parable. That is undeniable.

Luke 8:12
Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

episkopos
Oct 30th 2013, 06:10 PM
I am just preaching what the Holy Bible clearly says that salvation is just by faith.


You are mistaken. You are giving only a viewpoint that you have learned from others.


Actually Jesus Christ said that believing is salvation in the very explanation of the parable. That is undeniable.


That is what you are looking for...an easy out...without taking the time to find out (with fear and trembling rather than smugness) what is meant by a biblical faith.

SavedByGraceByFait
Oct 30th 2013, 06:58 PM
You are mistaken. You are giving only a viewpoint that you have learned from others.



That is what you are looking for...an easy out...without taking the time to find out (with fear and trembling rather than smugness) what is meant by a biblical faith.

You are looking right at the very pronouncement of Jesus Christ and denying it.

Actually Jesus Christ said that believing is salvation in the very explanation of the parable. That is undeniable.

Luke 8:12
Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

TBM 11
Oct 30th 2013, 07:16 PM
You are mistaken. You are giving only a viewpoint that you have learned from others.



That is what you are looking for...an easy out...without taking the time to find out (with fear and trembling rather than smugness) what is meant by a biblical faith.

How can you make those statements after all that he/she has posted here from scripture? There have been others including myself that have produced scripture from all over the bible that clearly states that salvation is by faith through grace alone.

It only takes a couple of seconds to read Luke 7:50 which is a perfect example of "biblical faith."

50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.

Jesus told the woman "THY FAITH HATH SAVED THEE." This should be plain to anyone!

TBM 11
Oct 30th 2013, 07:22 PM
I agree....... :thumbsup:

I also believe that "the promised land" is not a picture of our "destination heaven," but of possessing (walking and operating in) all that our Lord has obtained for us ("given us") in His "salvation package" NOW, so to speak (as much as is possible, NOW... and which, of course, also includes being "with Him" in glorified bodies in the future).

(Obadiah 1:17b)

And I agree with you also! :thumbsup:

episkopos
Oct 30th 2013, 07:24 PM
How can you make those statements after all that he/she has posted here from scripture? There have been others including myself that have produced scripture from all over the bible that clearly states that salvation is by faith through grace alone.

It only takes a couple of seconds to read Luke 7:50 which is a perfect example of "biblical faith."

50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.

Jesus told the woman "THY FAITH HATH SAVED THEE." This should be plain to anyone!


You don't understand that salvation has to do with deliverance from present bondage and affliction. Jesus declared the woman free from the bondage she was in...not a granting of immunity to keep sinning. You take away honour from her and God by your twisting of the plain text.

TBM 11
Oct 30th 2013, 07:36 PM
You don't understand that salvation has to do with deliverance from present bondage and affliction. Jesus declared the woman free from the bondage she was in...not a granting of immunity to keep sinning. You take away honour from her and God by your twisting of the plain text.

You are giving a false interpretation of the scripture. I didn't twist any text, you did. Because you can't make it say what you want it to say without twisting it.

episkopos
Oct 30th 2013, 07:44 PM
You are giving a false interpretation of the scripture. I didn't twist any text, you did. Because you can't make it say what you want it to say without twisting it.

That's ironic of you to say! I asked you twice to comment on a verse from Paul that states that unless one abides in the ship then he cannot be saved. Why don't you respond to this clear verse about salvation? I ask others here to note your lack of response to this...

Act 27:31 Paul said to the centurion and to the soldiers, ] Except these abide in the ship, ye cannot be saved.[/SIZE]

Maybe you missed this verse the last few times with all the verse that are been carelessly flung around here... But I ask you to comment on just this one verse...

SavedByGraceByFait
Oct 30th 2013, 08:11 PM
That's ironic of you to say! I asked you twice to comment on a verse from Paul that states that unless one abides in the ship then he cannot be saved. Why don't you respond to this clear verse about salvation? I ask others here to note your lack of response to this...

Act 27:31 Paul said to the centurion and to the soldiers, ] Except these abide in the ship, ye cannot be saved.[/SIZE]

Maybe you missed this verse the last few times with all the verse that are been carelessly flung around here... But I ask you to comment on just this one verse...

I know that verse very well.

It is just about being saved from physical death when Paul was being transported as a prisoner aboard a ship caught in a storm.

keck553
Oct 30th 2013, 09:14 PM
If we have to tell someone we are a Christian, chances are we are not. It should be obvious to all. God's light dwelling within a believer can never be hidden, either from the world or other Christians.
Jesus said you shall know them by their fruits. The life of God changes everything about them. The way they work, talk, act, think. I work for Home Depot, and I can tell immediately when fellow believer walks into the store.

Yes! Obviously you see this through outward actions.

The is one of the best posts on this forum.

episkopos
Oct 30th 2013, 09:16 PM
I know that verse very well.

It is just about being saved from physical death when Paul was being transported as a prisoner aboard a ship caught in a storm.

So if you can see this as a temporal salvation in this life...real as it is...why are you so thrown off that the salvation provision offered by Christ is for this life as well?

keck553
Oct 30th 2013, 09:18 PM
That is just your theory. But Jesus Christ told you who gets saved. It is those that believe and it is the only thing mentioned.

Actually Jesus Christ said that believing is salvation in the very explanation of the parable.

Luke 8:12
Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

This is also to TBM -
You both may be unaware of this, but most of us have been through the hyper-charismatic wringer, so we do know some things about those teachings.

episkopos
Oct 30th 2013, 09:22 PM
This is also to TBM -
You both may be unaware of this, but most of us have been through the hyper-charismatic wringer, so we do know some things about those teachings. You're not bringing anything new to the table.


I call this the permanent baby status ploy.

Jade99
Oct 30th 2013, 09:22 PM
If we have to tell someone we are a Christian, chances are we are not. It should be obvious to all. God's light dwelling within a believer can never be hidden, either from the world or other Christians.
Jesus said you shall know them by their fruits. The life of God changes everything about them. The way they work, talk, act, think. I work for Home Depot, and I can tell immediately when fellow believer walks into the store.

Right on!!!!!! I like this post.

keck553
Oct 30th 2013, 09:26 PM
I call this the permanent baby status ploy.

But boy, it sure rakes in the dough for a certain group of "preachers" I won't mention here.....

Eyelog
Oct 30th 2013, 09:30 PM
Yes! Obviously you see this through outward actions.

The is one of the best posts on this forum.

Some hide it under a bowl.

Some have lost their saltiness.

Some are still in grave-like swaddling clothes.

SavedByGraceByFait
Oct 30th 2013, 09:31 PM
This is also to TBM -
You both may be unaware of this, but most of us have been through the hyper-charismatic wringer, so we do know some things about those teachings.

I just believe the word of God.

Actually Jesus Christ said that believing is salvation in the very explanation of the parable.

Luke 8:12
Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

keck553
Oct 30th 2013, 09:34 PM
Some hide it under a bowl.

Some have lost their saltiness.

Some are still in grave-like swaddling clothes.

Jesus said salt that has lost its flavor isn't even worthy of being in a dung pile.

Pretty scary if you ask me....

keck553
Oct 30th 2013, 09:35 PM
I just believe the word of God.

Actually Jesus Christ said that believing is salvation in the very explanation of the parable.

Luke 8:12
Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

Well, I believe the Word of God too. ALL of it, not just the parts that make me feel good, or can be twisted to justify my bad behaviour.

episkopos
Oct 30th 2013, 09:37 PM
But boy, it sure rakes in the dough for a certain group of "preachers" I won't mention here.....

People love both an irresponsibility and an immunity. Preach that...and watch the pews fill up. (But don't do this)...

Diapers of righteousness?

Eyelog
Oct 30th 2013, 09:37 PM
Jesus said salt that has lost its flavor isn't even worthy of being in a dung pile.

Pretty scary if you ask me....

Yes, but there's a lot of Christians who live in defeat.

keck553
Oct 30th 2013, 09:50 PM
Yes, but there's a lot of Christians who live in defeat.

It's Jesus who will separate the tares from the wheat.

We can only observe fruit.

SavedByGraceByFait
Oct 30th 2013, 10:27 PM
It's Jesus who will separate the tares from the wheat.

We can only observe fruit.

the wheat are those that are saved just by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

The tares are the self-righteous who trust in their own works and merit for salvation.

shepherdsword
Oct 30th 2013, 10:31 PM
the wheat are those that are saved just by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

The tares are the self-righteous who trust in their own works and merit for salvation.


The wheat are those who born have fruit by faith being connected to Christ.
The tares are those with a false gospel that thinks that faith does not have to produce anything.

Curtis
Oct 30th 2013, 10:31 PM
Maybe we all need to just realize that every thing we have from God is a gift from him to us. Faith, salvation, grace, mercy, the Holy Spirit ect ect.
Even what we do after confessing Jesus Christ Lord of our lives, and getting born again. It will always be God that is in control of every thing that belongs to him.
We should never worry about what we are going to do after salvation as it is God that worketh in us, both to will and to do of His good pleasure.
Like Jesus said, "it is my Father that is in me, he is the one doing the works." Doing his works can only be done by Him since our own righteousness are as filthy rags.
If God is the only one who is good, then it has to be him that does his good through us. I guess that would be called interring his rest so we can stop doing our works, and letting God do his works through us.
I like that much better when I can be amazed at what the Lord does through His Church. It's fun!!!

Eyelog
Oct 30th 2013, 10:36 PM
Doing his works can only be done by Him since our own righteousness are as filthy rags.

Aren't we to do the righteous acts of the Saints, ... in which case we are commanded to produce filthy rags?

TheDivineWatermark
Oct 30th 2013, 10:49 PM
"Having been filled with the fruit of righteousness, which are by [means of] Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God." Philippians 1:11

"Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to Another, even to Him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God." Romans 7:4 (Our union with Him produces fruit unto God.)

"Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through [by means of] Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen." Hebrews 13:21

Curtis
Oct 30th 2013, 11:05 PM
Aren't we to do the righteous acts of the Saints, ... in which case we are commanded to produce filthy rags?

The reason we are still on planet earth right now, is not so we can suffer, or leaned something cool, but so that God can continue in reconciling the world unto himself through the Church. Or else we would not be here.

2Co 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.
2Co 5:18 All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation;
2Co 5:19 that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.
2Co 5:20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.

It is not our works, but his works that is flowing through us.

Bandit
Oct 30th 2013, 11:49 PM
What is your definition of apostacy?


How about we take Paul's example of ancient Israel in 1st Corinthians for starters. So what is your understanding of it?


My understanding of ancient Israel is that it was under the covenant of Law. We are under the covenant of grace. ...

Paul was encouraging the people of Corinth to live for the glory of God. He was not telling them that they would lose their salvation, in fact, he told them they WOULDN'T lose their salvation (1 Cor. 3:15). What he did tell them was they would lose rewards (3:15).

Hello TBM,

I would challenge you to rethink your understanding. Both covenants were covenants based on faith. "The just shall live by faith" is a quote true for all time. And the implication you seem to be making here is that under the Old Covenant people earned their salvation by works - nothing could be further from the truth. Do you really think Moses thought he was earning his way in? Paul makes it clear that the same potential for failure which they exhibited can likewise be exhibited in us - 1 Cor 10:13 makes this clear. And the Book of Hebrews drives this point even further - addressing their failure as a failure in their faith. So as they fell, by not abiding in faith, so can we.

And your appeal to 1 Corinthians 3:15 is both misunderstood and misapplied. First, what makes you think you can make an appeal to 3:15 when we are discussing chapter 10 - that is a very long stretch. That verse is not a part of the context of chapter 10. Also, 3:15 has nothing to do with the supposed 'once-saved-always-saved' status of the general believer; it has to do with stewards of the gospel who, though well-intentioned, are teaching some incorrect doctrines (like OSAS for instance). If one reads and studies 1 Cor. 3 carefully, one should realize that this chapter has nothing to do with OSAS; in fact, there are 3 connected 'if's in that local context: verses 3:14, 15, and 17. In verse 14 the steward built well and is rewarded accordingly. In verse 15 the steward is well-intentioned but building incorrectly - so he is saved but his works are rejected. And finally, verse 17 points out the steward who deliberately distorts the word of God - that one will be destroyed! So in fact, 1 Cor. 3 does not teach OSAS.


Bandit I am not trying to argue. ... There are just too many clear verses supporting [OSAS]. The Holy Spirit showed me this back in Feb. of this year ...

So should I now discard what the Holy Spirit has taught me for the past 30+ years? In my view, you have been misled concerning 1st Corinthians. You have been taught an incorrect understanding of verse 3:15, and you also misunderstand chapter 10, and you for some reason think it is okay to insert (an incorrect understanding of) 3:15 into the middle of chapter 10. Please don't try to claim the Holy Spirit taught you this - the OSAS crowd is to be blamed, not God. Please rethink 1st Corinthians carefully.

keck553
Oct 30th 2013, 11:49 PM
the wheat are those that are saved just by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

The tares are the self-righteous who trust in their own works and merit for salvation.

Not exactly.

Actually not even close....

keck553
Oct 31st 2013, 12:00 AM
Aren't we to do the righteous acts of the Saints, ... in which case we are commanded to produce filthy rags?

Imagine if the Apostles sat on their salvation and did nothing (to avoid the filthy rag syndrome).

There would be no church today. Just a world full of pagans running around trying to ascend to heaven via Plato's shadow-cave philosophy.

TheDivineWatermark
Oct 31st 2013, 12:27 AM
Imagine if the Apostles sat on their salvation and did nothing (to avoid the filthy rag syndrome).


We are "created in Christ Jesus unto good works" not "we are to do good works in order to be created in Christ Jesus [saved/new creation]"... which is what I thought the subject of this thread was about... not about Christians "doing nothing."

SavedByGraceByFait
Oct 31st 2013, 12:56 AM
We are "created in Christ Jesus unto good works" not "we are to do good works in order to be created in Christ Jesus [saved/new creation]"... which is what I thought the subject of this thread was about... not about Christians "doing nothing."

The thread is about what causes salvation. As you said good works do not earn salvation, but are the result of salvation.

TheDivineWatermark
Oct 31st 2013, 01:00 AM
The thread is about what causes salvation. As you said good works do not earn salvation, but are the result of salvation.

Right on. QFT... :thumbsup:

keck553
Oct 31st 2013, 01:09 AM
We are "created in Christ Jesus unto good works" not "we are to do good works in order to be created in Christ Jesus [saved/new creation]"... which is what I thought the subject of this thread was about... not about Christians "doing nothing."

We've all had our glass of milk. How about some solid food?

SavedByGraceByFait
Oct 31st 2013, 01:11 AM
We've all had our glass of milk. How about some solid food?

Why not just believe the truth of the gospel first

TheDivineWatermark
Oct 31st 2013, 01:20 AM
We've all had our glass of milk. How about some solid food?

"Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through [by means of] Christ." Galatians 4:7

Babes (milk drinkers and those who "are become such as have need of milk") do not yet know the difference between the two.

SavedByGraceByFait
Oct 31st 2013, 01:28 AM
"Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through [by means of] Christ." Galatians 4:7

Babes (milk drinkers) do not yet know the difference between the two.

you were refuted again
you do not know the scripture

maybe you should try to take sip of milk first

shepherdsword
Oct 31st 2013, 01:36 AM
"Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through [by means of] Christ." Galatians 4:7

Babes (milk drinkers and those who "are become such as have need of milk") do not yet know the difference between the two.

If we are sons should we not be doing the things that sons do? Shouldn't our lives bear the same fruit in our behavior and love towards others? How is that we have accepted some vain philosophical message that only requires that we accept some ideas that are true? If we are a new creation old things have passed away have they not? Does this not also mean that we walk in the new things that God has for us? I don't know about anyone else but i will not rest until Christ is fully formed in me and that I am walking as He walked:

1Jn 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

All of the promises of God can be boiled down to this true essence:

2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

SavedByGraceByFait
Oct 31st 2013, 01:39 AM
If we are sons should we not be doing the things that sons do? Shouldn't our lives bear the same fruit in our behavior and love towards others? How is that we have accepted some vain philosophical message that only requires that we accept some ideas that are true? If we are a new creation old things have passed away have they not? Does this not also mean that we walk in the new things that God has for us? I don't know about anyone else but i will not rest until Christ is fully formed in me and that I am walking as He walked:

1Jn 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

All of the promises of God can be boiled down to this true essence:

2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.


Saved just by faith in The Lord Jesus Christ

TBM 11
Oct 31st 2013, 01:45 AM
Galatians 2:21

21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

TBM 11
Oct 31st 2013, 02:09 AM
Galatians 3:24

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Obfuscate
Oct 31st 2013, 02:26 AM
There is no such thing as faith without works, however, it is faith that justifies (Romans 3:28 – Galatians 2:16) not works (Titus 3:5 – Romans 9:32) otherwise there is no peace with God (Romans 5:1).

It is God’s will who works in us:

Philippians 2:13 - for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

So we can Love one another and do good works:

1 Thessalonians 3:12-13 - and may the Lord make you increase and abound in love for one another and for all, as we do for you, so that he may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all his saints.

TheDivineWatermark
Oct 31st 2013, 02:51 AM
If we are sons should we not be doing the things that sons do? Shouldn't our lives bear the same fruit in our behavior and love towards others? How is that we have accepted some vain philosophical message that only requires that we accept some ideas that are true? If we are a new creation old things have passed away have they not? Does this not also mean that we walk in the new things that God has for us? I don't know about anyone else but i will not rest until Christ is fully formed in me and that I am walking as He walked:


Perhaps you missed where I had posted:


"Having been filled with the fruit of righteousness, which are by [means of] Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God." Philippians 1:11

"Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to Another, even to Him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God." Romans 7:4 (Our union with Him produces fruit unto God.)

"[the God of peace...] Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through [by means of] Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen." Hebrews 13:21

and


We are "created in Christ Jesus unto good works" not "we are to do good works in order to be created in Christ Jesus [saved/new creation]"... which is what I thought the subject of this thread was about... not about Christians "doing nothing."

Then there is:

"Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body." 2 Corinthians 4:10

No one has said anything about sitting around doing nothing, or delighting in "all the sin we can possibly commit" now that we're saved. It perplexes me that these types of ideas are even brought up. We are saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ's finished work alone (not of works lest any man should boast)... and we were created in Christ Jesus unto good works (not by means of them).

shepherdsword
Oct 31st 2013, 04:17 AM
Saved just by faith in The Lord Jesus Christ

You are citing that like it is a mantra. However,faith in Christ only saves when the reality of who Jesus is comes forth in our lives. Christianity isn't a set of mantras that we recite until we have persuaded ourselves of salvation. It isn't a philosophical set of intellectual precepts that we come into agreement with. We can claim to know Christ but the fulcrum of salvation is if he knows us. There will be many that He will say to "depart from me,I never knew you" so we see that they were rejected on what they worked...iniquity.

Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


So that is the question,is our intimacy with Christ of such a nature that it has birthed something inside us not of ourselves? A New Creation? The same word in Greek that Jesus used there is the same one the Septuagint uses when it says "Adam knew his wife Eve and she brought forth a son" Your ilk cites all of Paul's rebuke against the legalistic teachers who taught adherence to the law of Moses but you always leave these verses out of your partial message:

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.


Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

TheDivineWatermark
Oct 31st 2013, 04:21 AM
"That the RIGHTEOUSNESS of the law might be fulfilled IN us [not BY us]" Romans 8:4


The "iniquity" they worked, in Matthew 7, was the thought of "haven't WE ... done many wonderful works" Matthew 7:22

shepherdsword
Oct 31st 2013, 04:48 AM
"That the RIGHTEOUSNESS of the law might be fulfilled IN us [not BY us]" Romans 8:4

And there in lies the answer. It is worked IN us so that it may be performed by Christ living BY us.

This can be seen by the verse you ignored:

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.



The "iniquity" they worked, in Matthew 7, was the thought of "haven't WE ... done many wonderful works" Matthew 7:22

You need to learn what "iniquity" means: "anomian" LAWLESSNESS

The problem that I have with the doctrine you people are propagating is that there is such an arrogant form of self assumed justification involved. I see the standard of God's perfection that was fulfilled in Christ as unattainable by me. I am powerless to meet this standard by myself. This causes a heart's cry of desperation for change and conversion and the humble recognition that without Jesus this is impossible. God hears the cry of the brokenhearted and contrite and dwells with them. He also gives grace to the humble and this grace then empowers obedience. However, when you adopt a christian philosophy that there is no standard then with it comes an arrogant form of self assumed righteousness. It's not much different from the Pharisees,it's just that the new form of self righteousness claims to come from the Son but it still maintains all of the arrogance and pride of the Pharisaical version. While there is truth in the fact that once the blood covers us we are as righteous as we will ever be this justification doesn't eliminate the need for confession and repentance whenever we sin. Only those who hunger and thirst after righteousness will be filled. Only the pure in heart will see God.

TheDivineWatermark
Oct 31st 2013, 04:54 AM
However, when you adopt a christian philosophy that there is no standard then with it comes an arrogant form of self assumed righteousness.

I just quoted (for the second time in this thread), "Having been filled with the fruit of righteousness, which are by [means of] Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God." Philippians 1:11

How could this be misconstrued as "self assumed righteousness," in any way? It is HIS righteousness. HIS fruit.

shepherdsword
Oct 31st 2013, 04:57 AM
We are so afraid of the word "works" that we absolutely refuse to let ourselves be accused of doing any. After all, someone might say that we are depending on our works to save us...........

Totally neglecting the fact that works are commanded of us.

In fact,these works are what we are created for brother. Something else denied by some:

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Not saved by works but ordained and empowered by grace to do works.

TheDivineWatermark
Oct 31st 2013, 05:01 AM
^ This is what I've been saying... :D (post #236, for one...)

TheDivineWatermark
Oct 31st 2013, 05:16 AM
Galatians 2:21

21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Very excellent! :amen:

TBM 11
Oct 31st 2013, 12:18 PM
And there in lies the answer. It is worked IN us so that it may be performed by Christ living BY us.

This can be seen by the verse you ignored:

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.




You need to learn what "iniquity" means: "anomian" LAWLESSNESS

The problem that I have with the doctrine you people are propagating is that there is such an arrogant form of self assumed justification involved. I see the standard of God's perfection that was fulfilled in Christ as unattainable by me. I am powerless to meet this standard by myself. This causes a heart's cry of desperation for change and conversion and the humble recognition that without Jesus this is impossible. God hears the cry of the brokenhearted and contrite and dwells with them. He also gives grace to the humble and this grace then empowers obedience. However, when you adopt a christian philosophy that there is no standard then with it comes an arrogant form of self assumed righteousness. It's not much different from the Pharisees,it's just that the new form of self righteousness claims to come from the Son but it still maintains all of the arrogance and pride of the Pharisaical version. While there is truth in the fact that once the blood covers us we are as righteous as we will ever be this justification doesn't eliminate the need for confession and repentance whenever we sin. Only those who hunger and thirst after righteousness will be filled. Only the pure in heart will see God.

PLEASE READ!
After reading all of the scripture that has been presented to you clearly refuting what you are saying here, are you STILL willing to rest your assurance of salvation on the doctrine you are adopting? This is about where you will spend eternity! Are you sure about your view enough to rest eternity on it? Do you think it might be worth at least reevaluating which doctrine God shows us saves a person to live in eternity with Him? I am not trying to talk down to you. If you could hear me talk to you instead of reading this you would hear a pleading in my voice.

This thread is full of verses that clearly establish how we are saved. You define "iniquity" as "lawlessness." You have been provided verse after verse that says we are NOT saved by keeping the law but by FAITH IN HIM. Here are a few for you to read again. I pray that God will show you what He meant for us to understand by including them in His Holy Word.
PLEASE READ!!


Galatians 2:16
16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.
Galatians 2:20,21
20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.
20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.
Galatians 3:10-14
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them
11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.
12 Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.”
13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”
14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

There are many more, but I don't want to list them all. I ask that you consider closely just these verses as if all eternity depended on it for you (as indeed it does). Especially Gal. 10-14.

Take some time with this. Pray, and ask God if this is the way He has established. If you still believe this is false doctrine as it pertains to salvation, I know of nothing else I can say.

My faith is in Jesus only for my salvation. But I don't claim that so I can go to the bars, get drunk, commit adultery, then come home and get back on here to discuss scripture with you. I don't use it as a license to sin. To the contrary. It makes me want to live as holy as I can (through Him) because of what I believe He did for me!

The doctrine you believe is questionable by Gods word. Mine is not.

shepherdsword
Oct 31st 2013, 01:09 PM
PLEASE READ!
After reading all of the scripture that has been presented to you clearly refuting what you are saying here, are you STILL willing to rest your assurance of salvation on the doctrine you are adopting?
What in the world are you talking about. Nothing I have said has been refuted. My position has been presented from the scriptures. Your "assurance of salvation" is a false one if it doesn't bear the fruit. You seem to think that quoting some scriptures taken out of context over and over again refutes a position.


This is about where you will spend eternity! Are you sure about your view enough to rest eternity on it?
Do you think it might be worth at least reevaluating which doctrine God shows us saves a person to live in eternity with Him?

This is exactly why I abandoned the "OSAS" sinner prayer lip service doctrine after holding it for 5 years. If you do not understand the fruits and actions that are a result of faith then it is time for you to do as Paul commanded. "Examine yourself to see if you are in the faith" We know them by their fruits...not by citing a liturgy ad nausem


I am not trying to talk down to you. If you could hear me talk to you instead of reading this you would hear a pleading in my voice.

It 's called an "appeal to emotion" where you think your feelings about a subject have somehow enlightened you to the truth. All the while you totally ignore the passages that not only dispute your position but shed light on the context of the scriptures you quote yourself.


This thread is full of verses that clearly establish how we are saved. You define "iniquity" as "lawlessness." You have been provided verse after verse that says we are NOT saved by keeping the law but by FAITH IN HIM. Here are a few for you to read again. I pray that God will show you what He meant for us to understand by including them in His Holy Word.[quote]

"I" am not defining iniquity as lawlessness,that is what is actually used in the greek. The word translated as iniquity is "anomion" and it literally means "no law". What you are doing is defining the word in a way that tries to fit a square peg into a round hole. I suggest you go look up the word in the greek and see for yourself what it means.
[quote]PLEASE READ!!


Galatians 2:16
16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.
Galatians 2:20,21
20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.
20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.
Galatians 3:10-14
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them
11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.
12 Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.”
13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”
14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

There are many more, but I don't want to list them all. I ask that you consider closely just these verses as if all eternity depended on it for you (as indeed it does). Especially Gal. 10-14.

Take some time with this. Pray, and ask God if this is the way He has established. If you still believe this is false doctrine as it pertains to salvation, I know of nothing else I can say.

You have read something INTO what I have said which I never said. I have never said we are justified by the works of the law. For some reason a little switch flips on in the minds of people who dismiss the fact that whole objective of salvation is to give us the ability to over come sin and become obedient. Whenever they hear "obedience" it is translated by their false doctrine as "self righteous works of the law" It's almost like their sinner's prayer salvation has given them a vaccination that makes them immune to the truth.


My faith is in Jesus only for my salvation. But I don't claim that so I can go to the bars, get drunk, commit adultery, then come home and get back on here to discuss scripture with you. I don't use it as a license to sin. To the contrary. It makes me want to live as holy as I can (through Him) because of what I believe He did for me!

And yet you define others that abstain from sins such as those as attempting to be justified by the law. You totally disregard the grace of God and redefine it as license to not change. In reality it is the power to change. Let me post some scriptures for you to re-read and pray about. Ask God if the salvation you have has the power to change and transform you.

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Do you see that Paul himself states that faith empowers us to be obedient? He clarifies how this is done here:

Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

He is clearly saying that this righteousness that is fulfilled is not done under our own power but by a walk in the Spirit.



The doctrine you believe is questionable by Gods word. Mine is not.

Not by God's word but only by the doctrinal box constructed by pure apophenia. You only consider the verses that re enforce your delusion and ignore the rest. Do you think we will sin in heaven? Is resurrection power only available on the day Jesus returns to transform those who truly believe him? Has not James instructed us that obedience brings faith to completion?

Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

What people with your position do is err by defining the works spoken of here by James as the Mosiac works of the law that work self righteousness. You then eliminate the completion and perfecting of faith by eliminating the only thing that shows it has life...works.

TBM 11
Oct 31st 2013, 01:14 PM
Quote; "Ask God if the salvation you have has the power to change and transform you. "

It already has. No need to ask.

keck553
Oct 31st 2013, 01:20 PM
Why not just believe the truth of the gospel first

Are you trying to persuade me or yourself?

I am confident because His Spirit has already testified to my spirit. I don't need to repeat the same mantra over and over again to convince myself that I am saved. See, it's not about doing what is popular in this wicked and perverse generation, it's about doing what is right.

luigi
Oct 31st 2013, 02:45 PM
As there are currently over one billion individuals who claim their being saved and having eternal life by believing Jesus Christ died for their sins; would this not void Matthew 7:14
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Unless a relative few means the current billion + self proclaimed Christians, and the billions of others who have claimed the same over the last two thousand years, one would have to assume that the vast majority of these individuals have missed the boat.

episkopos
Oct 31st 2013, 03:03 PM
As there are currently over one billion individuals who claim their being saved and having eternal life by believing Jesus Christ died for their sins; would this not void Matthew 7:14
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Unless a relative few means the current billion + self proclaimed Christians, and the billions of others who have claimed the same over the last two thousand years, one would have to assume that the vast majority of these individuals have missed the boat.

Hence the need for a great humility where any claiming in concerned.

Sometimes a new believer will get up in his pride while reading the front part of the new testament. Well the requirements of discipleship according to Jesus notwithstanding, an immature reading of the bile tends to grasp at a new verse while forgetting what other verses said in a previous reading.

We know that an honest reader of the bible (if he continues to read it) will end up in Hebrews and 2 Peter and their exhortation against a "faith only" approach.

Peter says...ADD to your faith (faith is not seemingly enough)....otherwise a progressive blindness sets in.

In Hebrews we are called to move on from milk to meat....laying aside the first milk doctrines we have been white-knuckling up till then. Getting in an early rut seems to be a historical problem among many newborn Christians.


So perhaps these new posters that are displaying their immaturity because they are new to the faith and they have not yet read through the whole NT?


How many who claim to be Christian have carefully considered the entire counsel of God?

SavedByGraceByFait
Oct 31st 2013, 03:03 PM
As there are currently over one billion individuals who claim their being saved and having eternal life by believing Jesus Christ died for their sins; would this not void Matthew 7:14
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Unless a relative few means the current billion + self proclaimed Christians, and the billions of others who have claimed the same over the last two thousand years, one would have to assume that the vast majority of these individuals have missed the boat.

It does not say preserver along the path. Those that are trying on their own merit are on the broad way to destruction.

Jesus Christ is the way.