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Nick
Oct 22nd 2013, 05:14 PM
1 Tim 2: 13-15 "For Adam was formed first, then Eve; 14 and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.15 Yet she will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control."

ChangedByHim
Oct 22nd 2013, 05:21 PM
1 Tim 2: 13-15 "For Adam was formed first, then Eve; 14 and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.15 Yet she will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control."




Well.... it doesn't say that Adam was not to blame. It says that Eve was DECEIVED not Adam. Adam was in conscious disobedience. Eve, however, was beguiled and became a transgressor. I think that the verse speaks to the susceptibility of women versus men.

Nick
Oct 22nd 2013, 05:31 PM
Well.... it doesn't say that Adam was not to blame. It says that Eve was DECEIVED not Adam. Adam was in conscious disobedience. Eve, however, was beguiled and became a transgressor. I think that the verse speaks to the susceptibility of women versus men.

Here are the notes on this verse.

1 Tim. 2:13–14 A woman’s subordinate role did not result after the fall as a cultural, chauvinistic corruption of God’s perfect design; rather, God established her role as part of his original creation (v. 13). God made woman after man to be his suitable helper (see note on Gen. 2:18; cf. 1 Cor. 11:8–9). The fall actually corroborates God’s divine plan of creation (see notes on Gen. 3:1–7). By nature Eve was not suited to assume the position of ultimate responsibility. By leaving Adam’s protection and usurping his headship, she was vulnerable and fell, thus confirming how important it was for her to stay under the protection and leadership of her husband (see notes on1 Tim. 5:11–12; 2 Tim. 3:6–7). Adam then violated his leadership role, followed Eve in her sin, and plunged the human race into sinfulness—all connected with violating God’s planned roles for the sexes. Ultimately, the responsibility for the fall still rests with Adam, since he chose to disobey God apart from being deceived (Rom. 5:12–21; 1 Cor. 15:21–22).

Redeemed by Grace
Oct 22nd 2013, 05:32 PM
Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned-- 13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

ChangedByHim
Oct 22nd 2013, 05:34 PM
Here are the notes on this verse.

1 Tim. 2:13–14 A woman’s subordinate role did not result after the fall as a cultural, chauvinistic corruption of God’s perfect design; rather, God established her role as part of his original creation (v. 13). God made woman after man to be his suitable helper (see note on Gen. 2:18; cf. 1 Cor. 11:8–9). The fall actually corroborates God’s divine plan of creation (see notes on Gen. 3:1–7). By nature Eve was not suited to assume the position of ultimate responsibility. By leaving Adam’s protection and usurping his headship, she was vulnerable and fell, thus confirming how important it was for her to stay under the protection and leadership of her husband (see notes on1 Tim. 5:11–12; 2 Tim. 3:6–7). Adam then violated his leadership role, followed Eve in her sin, and plunged the human race into sinfulness—all connected with violating God’s planned roles for the sexes. Ultimately, the responsibility for the fall still rests with Adam, since he chose to disobey God apart from being deceived (Rom. 5:12–21; 1 Cor. 15:21–22).

Yeah that pretty much states what I posted, just in a more articulate manner :)

jayne
Oct 22nd 2013, 05:39 PM
I think that the verse speaks to the susceptibility of women versus men.

I been taught that - that women are more susceptible than men and that this was supposedly a direct quote from the Bible and was the reasoning why men were given control over women.

The Bible says that Eve, personally, not women in general, was deceived.

What's interesting in the Bible is that are several passages where men and women are deceived by sin and deceived by others, including the Apostle Paul, by his OWN admission and several passage where humanity in general is deceived by sin and deceived by others. The very man who wrote that Eve was deceived, by his own admission, was deceived, himself.

Romans 7:11 - “For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me (Paul), and by it slew me.” By this verse alone, one cannot claim that Paul was saying that women only are deceived or more susceptible. Being deceived by sin and deceived by others is a universal problem according to the Bible…..not a female problem. Jesus Christ, Himself, warned us all not to be deceived by those lying and pretending to speak the words of God. Matthew 24:4-5 and 11“And Jesus answered and said unto them, ‘Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying I am Christ; and shall deceive many’……And many false prophets shall rise and deceive many.” John, in the book of Revelation, tells that Satan has deceived the WHOLE world. Revelation 13:14 “And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world; he was cast out into the earth and his angels were cast out with him."

I found 70 passages in the Bible about deception. Here’s just a few.

~Sin deceives all people. 1 Corinthians 6:9; 1 Corinthians 15:33; Galatians 6:7; Ephesians 4:14; Ephesians 5:6; 2 Timothy 3:13; 1 John 3:7

Redeemed by Grace
Oct 22nd 2013, 05:44 PM
Here are the notes on this verse.

1 Tim. 2:13–14 A woman’s subordinate role did not result after the fall as a cultural, chauvinistic corruption of God’s perfect design; rather, God established her role as part of his original creation (v. 13). God made woman after man to be his suitable helper (see note on Gen. 2:18; cf. 1 Cor. 11:8–9). The fall actually corroborates God’s divine plan of creation (see notes on Gen. 3:1–7). By nature Eve was not suited to assume the position of ultimate responsibility. By leaving Adam’s protection and usurping his headship, she was vulnerable and fell, thus confirming how important it was for her to stay under the protection and leadership of her husband (see notes on1 Tim. 5:11–12; 2 Tim. 3:6–7). Adam then violated his leadership role, followed Eve in her sin, and plunged the human race into sinfulness—all connected with violating God’s planned roles for the sexes. Ultimately, the responsibility for the fall still rests with Adam, since he chose to disobey God apart from being deceived (Rom. 5:12–21; 1 Cor. 15:21–22).

Now before I quote Genesis 3, I submit that God's plan has always been for one man and one woman, and in that the Woman was man's helper, an equal. However, with the fall of both Adam and Eve, God modified the woman's role and demeanor in punishment.

Genesis 3:16 To the woman He said,
"I will greatly multiply
Your pain in childbirth,
In pain you will bring forth children;
Yet your desire will be for your husband,
And he will rule over you."

So I don't necessarily disagree with the commentary given, I do think it missed a few other parts of scripture as it interpreted 1 Timothy

The of course to Adam:

Genesis 3:17 Then to Adam He said, "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat from it';
Cursed is the ground because of you;
In toil you will eat of it
All the days of your life.

Slug1
Oct 22nd 2013, 06:24 PM
Now before I quote Genesis 3, I submit that God's plan has always been for one man and one woman, and in that the Woman was man's helper, an equal. However, with the fall of both Adam and Eve, God modified the woman's role and demeanor in punishment.

Genesis 3:16 To the woman He said,
"I will greatly multiply
Your pain in childbirth,
In pain you will bring forth children;
Yet your desire will be for your husband,
And he will rule over you."

So I don't necessarily disagree with the commentary given, I do think it missed a few other parts of scripture as it interpreted 1 Timothy

The of course to Adam:

Genesis 3:17 Then to Adam He said, "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat from it';
Cursed is the ground because of you;
In toil you will eat of it
All the days of your life.God "modified" His plan for all women due to "her" actions in the cause of the fall? According to all you've ever said, each action is in accordance of God's specific will... so nothing is "modified".

Unless... her action was her free will and due to her making that choice to eat of the fruit (due to temptation by satan) and then talked Adam into eating also... God had to modify things :hmm:

ChangedByHim
Oct 22nd 2013, 06:42 PM
I been taught that - that women are more susceptible than men and that this was supposedly a direct quote from the Bible and was the reasoning why men were given control over women.

The Bible says that Eve, personally, not women in general, was deceived.



But the context is women (plural):

9 in like manner also, that the women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with propriety and moderation, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly clothing, 10 but, which is proper for women professing godliness, with good works. 11 Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. 12 And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. 15 Nevertheless she will be saved in childbearing if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self-control.

***

I certainly am not implying that men cannot be deceived. I am just reading the scripture for what it says.

Nick
Oct 22nd 2013, 07:08 PM
Yeah that pretty much states what I posted, just in a more articulate manner :)

I know which was why I shared the notes. ;)

jayne
Oct 22nd 2013, 07:13 PM
I certainly am not implying that men cannot be deceived. I am just reading the scripture for what it says.

I've read the same scripture and I cannot find where women, in general, are more susceptible than men (in general). But, I do not wish to debate the point. I like you and think you are a very good and needed presence here.

You aren't the first man (or woman) I've come across to believe that the Bible implies that women are lacking in discernment more so than a man.

I just don't see it. I do see that women are sometimes treated like that. For example: I needed three trees cut in my yard once. I called someone very reputable. He came to my house to give me a bid. I already knew the realm of what the price should be. He gave me a grossly overpriced bid - it was almost laughable. And he wasn't going to grind up the stumps nor clean the yard. I told him thanks, but no thanks.

I called the second man that I thought was reputable. I also called my dad. I asked him to come over and "do all the talking for me". I followed the two of them around my yard like an silent idiot. The second man gave me a reasonable bid and ground up the stumps and cleaned the yard.

I wasn't susceptible to being ripped off. But the first man thought I was - because I was female. I asked some really great guys at my church why this reputable man had given me this outrageous bid. They laughed and then told me in very kind terms that it was because I was a girl without a man in the house. And I had to call another man, my dad, to take care of my business so that I wouldn't be ripped off. Things like that are maddening to me.

I've open-mindedly searched the scriptures multiple times to find where women are deficient in the discernment area. I just can't find it.

Redeemed by Grace
Oct 22nd 2013, 07:38 PM
Now before I quote Genesis 3, I submit that God's plan has always been for one man and one woman, and in that the Woman was man's helper, an equal. However, with the fall of both Adam and Eve, God modified the woman's role and demeanor in punishment.

Genesis 3:16 To the woman He said,
"I will greatly multiply
Your pain in childbirth,
In pain you will bring forth children;
Yet your desire will be for your husband,
And he will rule over you."

So I don't necessarily disagree with the commentary given, I do think it missed a few other parts of scripture as it interpreted 1 Timothy

The of course to Adam:

Genesis 3:17 Then to Adam He said, "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat from it';
Cursed is the ground because of you;
In toil you will eat of it
All the days of your life.


Positionally,

Yet your desire will be for your husband,
And he will rule over you."

chad
Oct 22nd 2013, 07:54 PM
Both ate of the fruit and both disobeyed. It is possible that both ate of the fruit at the same time, first eve then after that at the same time Adam also ate. Both

(Gen 3:6 KJV) And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

(Gen 3:7 KJV) And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

ChangedByHim
Oct 22nd 2013, 08:40 PM
Hi Jayne. All I know is that the verse says that Adam was not deceived and Eve was deceived. And Paul uses that premise to discuss the topics above and below that statement. Personally, I do not see this susceptibility within women in general. I'm just trying to explain what I think Paul is saying.

Aviyah
Oct 22nd 2013, 09:07 PM
Hi Jayne. All I know is that the verse says that Adam was not deceived and Eve was deceived.

God did not directly tell Eve that the tree was forbidden. Only Adam was told this so it was Adam's responsibility to warn her, which he apparently failed to do. Hence is why Eve was deceived - not because she was inherently gullible but because her husband allowed it. If you hear from a friend that the speed limit on a road is 45, you will be more prone to being convinced otherwise by someone else because you have not seen the signs for yourself - not because you are easily fooled.

ChangedByHim
Oct 22nd 2013, 09:52 PM
God did not directly tell Eve that the tree was forbidden. Only Adam was told this so it was Adam's responsibility to warn her, which he apparently failed to do. Hence is why Eve was deceived - not because she was inherently gullible but because her husband allowed it. If you hear from a friend that the speed limit on a road is 45, you will be more prone to being convinced otherwise by someone else because you have not seen the signs for yourself - not because you are easily fooled.Exactly. Adam failed completely. He was not deceived but dropped the ball with Eve and then willfully disobeyed God. My only point to the OP was that the verse was not about who failed, it is about who was deceived. The reason that Paul brings it up, as well as it's application, is open for interpretation.

Nick
Oct 22nd 2013, 09:53 PM
Exactly. Adam failed completely. He was not deceived but dropped the ball with Eve and then willfully disobeyed God. My only point to the OP was that the verse was not about who failed, it is about who was deceived. The reason that Paul brings it up, as well as it's application, is open for interpretation.

Again, the part in bolds is the question posed in the OP. Why the focus on Eve as the transgressor and not Adam?

ChangedByHim
Oct 22nd 2013, 10:13 PM
Again, the part in bolds is the question posed in the OP. Why the focus on Eve as the transgressor and not Adam?

I think you are stuck on the "transgressor" aspect and that is clearly not Paul's point. He simply states that Eve entered her transgression through deceit and Adam was not deceived into his transgression.

Aviyah
Oct 22nd 2013, 10:13 PM
Exactly. Adam failed completely. He was not deceived but dropped the ball with Eve and then willfully disobeyed God. My only point to the OP was that the verse was not about who failed, it is about who was deceived. The reason that Paul brings it up, as well as it's application, is open for interpretation.

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