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mailmandan
Oct 24th 2013, 11:35 PM
When God sees faith in Christ, He sees union with Christ and when He sees union with Christ, he sees the righteousness of Christ as our righteousness. So faith connects us with Christ who is our righteousness and, in that sense, faith is imputed, credited, counted as righteousness (Romans 4:6). Agreements? Disagreements? How do you interpret the righteousness of God in Him...the righteousness which is from God? (2 Corinthians 5:21; Philippians 3:9).

Oregongrown
Oct 25th 2013, 12:11 AM
When God sees faith in Christ, He sees union with Christ and when He sees union with Christ, he sees the righteousness of Christ as our righteousness. So faith connects us with Christ who is our righteousness and, in that sense, faith is imputed, credited, counted as righteousness (Romans 4:6). Agreements? Disagreements? How do you interpret the righteousness of God in Him...the righteousness which is from God? (2 Corinthians 5:21; Philippians 3:9).

2 Corinthians 5:21
21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

Philippians 3:9
9 and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith;

Assigned to, or credited to I will use as the definition of impute, or imputed since that's what I found in Merriam Webster

It's like we have an account (like a checking account) but of course we are all bankrupt without Jesus;) But I see it sort of like that, I have nothing to "pay my way" into God's presence, then Jesus comes and puts his death on the cross into my account. Now because of HIS "deposit" I can come to God, Jesus payed my way.

I hope I don't sound like I am minimizing Jesus sacrifice, all He went through for me. It was just what came to my mind and I answered your post kind of quickly.

mailmandan
Oct 25th 2013, 12:23 AM
It's like we have an account (like a checking account) but of course we are all bankrupt without Jesus;) But I see it sort of like that, I have nothing to "pay my way" into God's presence, then Jesus comes and puts his death on the cross into my account. Now because of HIS "deposit" I can come to God, Jesus payed my way.

Amen! "Imputed, credited, reckoned, accounted." I read that the Greek word is used in both financial and legal settings and means to take something that belongs to someone and credit to another's account.

SavedByGraceByFait
Oct 25th 2013, 12:47 AM
When God sees faith in Christ, He sees union with Christ and when He sees union with Christ, he sees the righteousness of Christ as our righteousness. So faith connects us with Christ who is our righteousness and, in that sense, faith is imputed, credited, counted as righteousness (Romans 4:6). Agreements? Disagreements? How do you interpret the righteousness of God in Him...the righteousness which is from God? (2 Corinthians 5:21; Philippians 3:9).

The saved have no righteousness of their own.
They do have the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ.
For salvation you need Christ' righteousness

TBM 11
Oct 25th 2013, 01:08 AM
Amen!! For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation (Romans 10:10). There are just so many verses that shows the extent of Gods grace towards us! When we truly realize what God has done for us there is no way we can think there is anything we can do to add to it.

Redeemed by Grace
Oct 25th 2013, 01:12 AM
What a joy to understand that it's all God.

Oregongrown
Oct 25th 2013, 01:16 AM
yes, I agree, because I struggled half my life thinking it was up to me, and I felt so inadequate, then I came to realize I am, but because of Jesus in me, I am not inadequate;)

episkopos
Oct 25th 2013, 01:28 AM
When God sees faith in Christ, He sees union with Christ and when He sees union with Christ, he sees the righteousness of Christ as our righteousness. So faith connects us with Christ who is our righteousness and, in that sense, faith is imputed, credited, counted as righteousness (Romans 4:6). Agreements? Disagreements? How do you interpret the righteousness of God in Him...the righteousness which is from God? (2 Corinthians 5:21; Philippians 3:9).



Actually by faith we enter into Christ who is our righteousness and perfection. So then God sees us as we truly are...in Christ. We behave as Jesus did when we are in Him so that we display the righteousness of Jesus Christ Himself. From there we are as holy and perfect as God is.

Jesus said...be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect. Without being actually in Christ we can do nothing.

So then when we abide in Christ the world sees Jesus...both in us and on us. Put on the new man who is created in the very image of Christ.

Oregongrown
Oct 25th 2013, 01:39 AM
Actually by faith we enter into Christ who is our righteousness and perfection. So then God sees us as we truly are...in Christ. We behave as Jesus did when we are in Him so that we display the righteousness of Jesus Christ Himself. From there we are as holy and perfect as God is.

Jesus said...be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect. Without being actually in Christ we can do nothing.

So then when we abide in Christ the world sees Jesus...both in us and on us. Put on the new man who is created in the very image of Christ.

Now that you say that, I think it is both, He is in us, and we are in Him. Maybe?

episkopos
Oct 25th 2013, 01:45 AM
Now that you say that, I think it is both, He is in us, and we are in Him. Maybe?

Regeneration is when Christ comes to live within us. But we must also put off the old man and put on the new Man if we want the power that Jesus walked in. The power of Christ ON us then draws the life of Christ from within us so that we are filled with the Holy Spirit as we walk. When we are filled with the Spirit there is no room for sin...so then we walk in a holiness that comes from above. That is the walk that we are called to live in as a witness to the world of the resurrected Saviour.

episkopos
Oct 25th 2013, 01:49 AM
When we sin it is because we have departed from the living way in Christ...however briefly. So then sin is a gauge of the level we are walking at. If we sin regularly then we are NOT abiding in the presence of Christ....we are still walking in the power of the old man who cannot overcome sin. Only those who have forsaken the power of the flesh to put on Christ can overcome sin in this world.

Bro Berryl
Oct 25th 2013, 02:07 AM
When God sees faith in Christ, He sees union with Christ and when He sees union with Christ, he sees the righteousness of Christ as our righteousness. So faith connects us with Christ who is our righteousness and, in that sense, faith is imputed, credited, counted as righteousness (Romans 4:6). Agreements? Disagreements? How do you interpret the righteousness of God in Him...the righteousness which is from God? (2 Corinthians 5:21; Philippians 3:9).

I don't mean to be critical but your understanding of imputed righteousness seems like a substitution to me. I don't read where the righteousness of Jesus is given to us, like God sees our sins and says "I will forgive their sins because of the righteousness of my Son".

On the contrary I read that Jesus paid the price that was required to pay for what we lost at the fall.

Matthew 20:28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

By paying the price that was required (his blood) we were redeemed back to God, for without the shedding of blood there is no remission.

Ephesians 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Righteousness is given to people today because they put their faith in the blood of the covenant that was given by Jesus.

Romans 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Romans 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

When we obey the demands of God given to us in the New Testament (obedience) God sees our faith and imputes righteousness to us.

TBM 11
Oct 25th 2013, 02:30 AM
2 Corinthians 5:21 - For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Philippians 3:9 - And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Galatians 2:16 - Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.


Romans 4:3 - For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Romans 5:17 - For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

Romans 1:17 - For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

All of these verses (can give about 10x this many more) are about righteousness imputed. It IS a substitution. Jesus was and is our substitution. When we are saved we are made ONE WITH HIM. This is how God can see us as righteous.

Bro Berryl
Oct 25th 2013, 03:22 AM
All of these verses (can give about 10x this many more) are about righteousness imputed. It IS a substitution. Jesus was and is our substitution. When we are saved we are made ONE WITH HIM. This is how God can see us as righteous.

Righteousness is imputed yes I agree, but it is because Jesus offered his body and shed his blood as a sacrifice. God demanded that there be a price paid for the sin of Adam that was passed unto all men because all have come short of the being perfect like God. The price was not paid with money but with the blood of Jesus.

When we put our faith in what Jesus did and obey his teaching by being united with him in baptism our sins are forgiven. Look at what the writer of Hebrews says.

Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
Heb 10:13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Heb 10:15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

Noeb
Oct 25th 2013, 04:21 AM
When God sees faith in Christ, He sees union with Christ and when He sees union with Christ, he sees the righteousness of Christ as our righteousness. So faith connects us with Christ who is our righteousness and, in that sense, faith is imputed, credited, counted as righteousness (Romans 4:6). Agreements? Disagreements? How do you interpret the righteousness of God in Him...the righteousness which is from God? (2 Corinthians 5:21; Philippians 3:9).Have you looked into N.T. Wright's explanation of "the righteousness of God"? I pretty much agree with him.

shepherdsword
Oct 25th 2013, 04:36 AM
When God sees faith in Christ, He sees union with Christ and when He sees union with Christ, he sees the righteousness of Christ as our righteousness. So faith connects us with Christ who is our righteousness and, in that sense, faith is imputed, credited, counted as righteousness (Romans 4:6). Agreements? Disagreements? How do you interpret the righteousness of God in Him...the righteousness which is from God? (2 Corinthians 5:21; Philippians 3:9).

I view God's righteousness as what He imputes to me...not something I claim. I try to follow Abraham's example when God imputed his believing God as being righteous. Abraham never claimed God's righteousness as his own but instead went on to perfect his faith by offering Issac...I offer up my Issacs as well...whatever they may be so that I may also one day be considered as being perfected by faith.

Peace:)

TrustGzus
Oct 25th 2013, 06:20 AM
When God sees faith in Christ, He sees union with Christ and when He sees union with Christ, he sees the righteousness of Christ as our righteousness. So faith connects us with Christ who is our righteousness and, in that sense, faith is imputed, credited, counted as righteousness (Romans 4:6). Agreements? Disagreements? How do you interpret the righteousness of God in Him...the righteousness which is from God? (2 Corinthians 5:21; Philippians 3:9).

One interesting thing in watching Christians discuss issues is how little an English dictionary is discussed. Bible translators are very literate people in both English and the original languages. If they translate a Hebrew or Greek word as impute, then that word is the English word that they think captures an idea the best. So often we try to be Greek and Hebrew "scholars" when we aren't even scholars in our own native tongue. So, let's look it up in English.


im•put•ed; im•put•ing [Middle English, from Anglo-French imputer, from Latin imputare, from in- + putare to consider] 14th century
1 : to lay the responsibility or blame for often falsely or unjustly
2 : to credit to a person or a cause : ATTRIBUTE 〈our vices as well as our virtues have been imputed to bodily derangement —B. N Cardozo〉 synonym see ASCRIBE — im•put•abil•i•ty \-ˌpyü-tə-ˈbi-lə-tē\ noun — im•put•able \-ˈpyü-tə-bəl\ adjective


Merriam-Webster, I. (2003). Merriam-Webster’s collegiate dictionary. Springfield, MA: Merriam-Webster, Inc.

Commentators often use definition 2. I think that's fair. But think about #1. If God dishes out justice, I'm done. God lays the responsibility or "blame" of Jesus' righteousness on me and lays the blame of my sin on Jesus. God justified the ungodly when he justified me. That's something that my thanks to him is always under expressed for.

mailmandan
Oct 25th 2013, 10:57 AM
I don't mean to be critical but your understanding of imputed righteousness seems like a substitution to me. I don't read where the righteousness of Jesus is given to us, like God sees our sins and says "I will forgive their sins because of the righteousness of my Son".

I don't believe that God forgives our sins simply because of the righteousness of Jesus. Without the shedding of blood there is no remission. We have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins. This is summed up nicely in Romans 3:24 - Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Then like you said, "Righteousness is given to people today because they put their faith in the blood of the covenant that was given by Jesus." Then we become the righteousness of God in Him...the righteousness which is from God. Do you believe that God see's us as righteous simply because our sins have been washed away by the blood of Christ or do you believe that the very righteousness of Christ has been credited to our account?


When we obey the demands of God given to us in the New Testament (obedience) God sees our faith and imputes righteousness to us.

Which demands must we obey prior to receiving the righteousness which is from God? Does God impute righteousness to us the moment that we put our faith in Christ's finished work of redemption as the allsufficient means of our salvation (Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16), or not until later, after we accomplish a list of additional works of obedience?

I see in post #14, you said - "When we put our faith in what Jesus did and obey his teaching by being united with him in baptism our sins are forgiven."

It appears that water baptism may be the only "additional requirement" that you add to salvation through faith.

Curtis
Oct 25th 2013, 11:19 AM
Righteousness is gift, so is grace, salvation, and faith. They are all gifts from God. We became righteousness the same way we became sinners, because of someone else's actions. We were in Christ at the time of all his righteousness deeds. It is as if we had done them ourselves since we were in him at that time. We are sinners because we were in Adam when he sinned. The Lord saved us before the world began, and all we have to do is access this grace by faith so we can experience them in this life and the next. Gifts are free to those who accept them by faith.

Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

episkopos
Oct 25th 2013, 11:40 AM
Righteousness is gift, so is grace, salvation, and faith. They are all gifts from God. We became righteousness the same way we became sinners, because of someone else's actions. We were in Christ at the time of all his righteousness deeds. It is as if we had done them ourselves since we were in him at that time. We are sinners because we were in Adam when he sinned. The Lord saved us before the world began, and all we have to do is access this grace by faith so we can experience them in this life and the next. Gifts are free to those who accept them by faith.

Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

It is a gift that must be entered into so that the reality will be seen in the world.

Bro Berryl
Oct 25th 2013, 12:09 PM
Do you believe that God see's us as righteous simply because our sins have been washed away by the blood of Christ or do you believe that the very righteousness of Christ has been credited to our account?

I believe God credits us with righteousness when he sees our faith demonstrated just the same way he did for Abraham.

James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
James 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
James 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.



Which demands must we obey prior to receiving the righteousness which is from God? Does God impute righteousness to us the moment that we put our faith in Christ's finished work of redemption as the allsufficient means of our salvation (Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16), or not until later, after we accomplish a list of additional works of obedience?

I believe the above verse answers this question


I see in post #14, you said - "When we put our faith in what Jesus did and obey his teaching by being united with him in baptism our sins are forgiven."

It appears that water baptism may be the only "additional requirement" that you add to salvation through faith.

The debate over faith verses works has been discussed in other threads so I won't bring it up here. Suffice to say that no one is saved by faith only and no one is saved by works only.

Noeb
Oct 25th 2013, 12:15 PM
Do you believe that God see's us as righteous simply because our sins have been washed away by the blood of Christ or do you believe that the very righteousness of Christ has been credited to our account?Righteous because we believe, and live by (believing) Grace, the gospel.

mailmandan
Oct 25th 2013, 12:25 PM
I believe God credits us with righteousness when he sees our faith demonstrated just the same way he did for Abraham.

James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
James 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
James 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. No! The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham was essential, not because it had some kind of intrinsic merit to save him but because it proved or manifested the genuineness of his faith. Faith made perfect or completed by his works means to bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean he was finally saved based on his works. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.


The debate over faith verses works has been discussed in other threads so I won't bring it up here. Suffice to say that no one is saved by faith only and no one is saved by works only.

Here is what I believe about faith and works. Man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9); yet genuine faith is substantiated and confirmed by good works. The word "alone" in regards to salvation through faith in "Christ alone" conveys the message that Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not on the merits of our works. It is by faith IN CHRIST alone (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). Faith is the root and works are the fruit of our salvation. No fruit would demonstrate no root.

TBM 11
Oct 25th 2013, 02:54 PM
Found this a little while ago. This is just a quote from the sermon. The link is to the whole sermon.

Surely, though we have had to mourn our disobedience with many tears and sighs, we now find joy in yielding ourselves as servants of the Lord: our deepest desire is to do the Lord's will in all things. Oh, for obedience! It has been supposed by many ill-instructed people that the doctrine of justification by faith is opposed to the teaching of good works, or obedience. There is no truth in the supposition. We preach the obedience of faith. Faith is the fountain, the foundation, and the fosterer of obedience. Men obey not God till they believe him. We preach faith in order that men may be brought to obedience. To disbelieve is to disobey. One of the first signs of practical obedience is found in the obedience of the mind, the understanding, and the heart; and this is expressed in believing the teaching of Christ, trusting to his work, and resting in his salvation. Faith is the morning star of obedience. If we would work the work of God, we must believe on Jesus Christ whom he hath sent. C.H.Spurgeon

http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/2195.htm

Noeb
Oct 25th 2013, 02:59 PM
Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
.............
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Rom 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Oregongrown
Oct 25th 2013, 03:53 PM
The debate over faith verses works has been discussed in other threads so I won't bring it up here. Suffice to say that no one is saved by faith only and no one is saved by works only.


This (the one I posted at the bottom) is the verse that follows when the jailer in Phillipians gets freaked out because he thinks that Paul and the prisoners have escaped, but Paul calls out to him and says not to worry because they didn't run away (even though they had the chance). Plus the fact he hears these prisoners singing and praising God earlier, so he is already wondering what these men have, and wanting some of it. God has revealed many things to me over the years I have been saved, and if it's anything I will not budge on in my beliefs, it is the fact that yes, faith is all it takes to be saved.

Don't think that I am saying faith is easy either, I struggle every day, but God lifted me out of a pit in 93 and I didn't do one single thing to earn salvation. I have things God calls me to do, and like David, if I don't listen, there are certainly consequences, but I don't lose my salvation. If I don't turn back and "inquire" of God and obey, the more consequences, which I see as hell on Earth. :o Oh oh, I see I have brought 2 other subjects in on this, but I won't go there either. Denise, a sister in Christ

And works is what a saved person does, not just because we are commanded to love others, but we want to because of the overwhelming realization of what God has done for us. So yes, faith without works is dead, it's a dead faith, like getting all grateful for what Jesus has done, and then just letting that faith fall asleep. I know my faith sleeps lots of times, and no, it is not a peaceful sleep since the Holy Spirit lives in me and convicts me. And He is relentless too, thank God above, kind of like my mom when she used to have to call me 3 times before I'd get up for school, but I got up, and I get back up for God too.

Acts 16:31
31 So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

TBM 11
Oct 25th 2013, 04:25 PM
This is the verse that follows when the jailer in Phillipians gets freaked out because he thinks that Paul and the prisoners have escaped, but Paul calls out to him and says not to worry because they didn't run away (even though they had the chance). Plus the fact he hears these prisoners singing and praising God earlier, so he is already wondering what these men have, and wanting some of it. God has revealed many things to me over the years I have been saved, and if it's anything I will not budge on in my beliefs, it is the fact that yes, faith is all it takes to be saved.

Don't think that I am saying faith is easy either, I struggle every day, but God lifted me out of a pit in 93 and I didn't do one single thing to earn salvation. I have things God calls me to do, and like David, if I don't listen, there are certainly consequences, but I don't lose my salvation. If I don't turn back and "inquire" of God and obey, the more consequences, which I see as hell on Earth. :o Oh oh, I see I have brought 2 other subjects in on this, but I won't go there either. Denise, a sister in Christ

And works is what a saved person does, not just because we are commanded to love others, but we want to because of the overwhelming realization of what God has done for us. So yes, faith without works is dead, it's a dead faith, like getting all grateful for what Jesus has done, and then just letting that faith fall asleep. I know my faith sleeps lots of times, and no, it is not a peaceful sleep since the Holy Spirit lives in me and convicts me. And He is relentless too, thank God above, kind of like my mom when she used to have to call me 3 times before I'd get up for school, but I got up, and I get back up for God too.

Acts 16:31
31 So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

AMEN SISTER!!! I think we have to consider this. Does our obedience come after faith, or before? Obviously after, as we can not be obedient until we have faith. What does the bible tell us in Eph 2:8,9? That we are saved by grace through faith! Our level of obedience, or holiness is increased as we walk with the Holy Spirits guidance and come to know the depths of Gods love. It is a progressive walk. I have always liked this expression I once heard, "we ARE justified, we PURSUE holiness."

Bro Berryl
Oct 25th 2013, 04:30 PM
In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. No! The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham was essential, not because it had some kind of intrinsic merit to save him but because it proved or manifested the genuineness of his faith. Faith made perfect or completed by his works means to bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean he was finally saved based on his works. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

You rightly point out that the instance of Abraham offering up his son Isaac was not the first time God accounted righteousness to him, that takes nothing away from the fact that God recognized his obedience as a demonstration of his faith.

My point in using James 2 was not to determine whether or not God imputed Abraham with righteousness at that point in his life or not, but to show how obedience and faith work together. The first time Abraham demonstrated his faith through obedience is actually Genesis 12

Gen 12:1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

Gen 12:4 So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him; and Lot went with him: and Abram was seventy and five years old when he departed out of Haran.

Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

Oregongrown
Oct 25th 2013, 04:37 PM
AMEN SISTER!!! I think we have to consider this. Does our obedience come after faith, or before? Obviously before, as we can not be obedient until we have faith. What does the bible tell us in Eph 2:8,9? That we are saved by grace through faith! Our level of obedience, or holiness is increased as we walk with the Holy Spirits guidance and come to know the depths of Gods love. It is a progressive walk. I have always liked this expression I once heard, "we ARE justified, we PURSUE holiness."

I like that expression too, it sums it up really well:) I think you did a type on the first line, but I do know what you meant from the rest of your post;) God bless, and have a great day in the Lord;) denise, ysic

TBM 11
Oct 25th 2013, 04:44 PM
Corrected it. Thanks Denise. I type faster than my brain sometimes. :crazy:

Bro Berryl
Oct 25th 2013, 04:53 PM
And works is what a saved person does, not just because we are commanded to love others, but we want to because of the overwhelming realization of what God has done for us. So yes, faith without works is dead, it's a dead faith, like getting all grateful for what Jesus has done, and then just letting that faith fall asleep. I know my faith sleeps lots of times, and no, it is not a peaceful sleep since the Holy Spirit lives in me and convicts me. And He is relentless too, thank God above, kind of like my mom when she used to have to call me 3 times before I'd get up for school, but I got up, and I get back up for God too.

Acts 16:31
31 So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

I wrote something about works in a different thread, I was trying to point out that the bible speaks of works in more than one way. There are works of the Law of Moses

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Works done after we are saved are called good works most of the time in scripture;

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

And then there are works of righteousness that are actually the commands of God given to us that we may obtain salvation.

Acts 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
Acts 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Very often we speak of works in this forum and are not specific as to which works we are referring to. In my dialog about imputed righteousness I am speaking of the last example of works, the obedience a person shows that demonstrates that they believe.

Question: I my wife told me she loved me but her actions demonstrate otherwise does she truly love me? No

It's the same way with God, he says if you love me keep my commandments

1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1 John 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

He commands us to repent, he commands us to be baptized, he commands us to walk in the light and if we sin (which we will do sometimes) he commands us to confess our faults

Oregongrown
Oct 25th 2013, 04:59 PM
Corrected it. Thanks Denise. I type faster than my brain sometimes. :crazy:

LOL, I hope I do, because my brain is way slow:idea: Like when I can't remember something at 6pm, then I wake up to it at 2:30 a.m.:lol:

TBM 11
Oct 25th 2013, 05:05 PM
Bro Berryl that is probably the best I have ever heard someone explain their view from a works=salvation standpoint. I appreciate your comment but would you tell me how it applies to 1 Cor. 3:10-15?



10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Oregongrown
Oct 25th 2013, 05:09 PM
I wrote something about works in a different thread, I was trying to point out that the bible speaks of works in more than one way. There are works of the Law of Moses

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Works done after we are saved are called good works most of the time in scripture;

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

And then there are works of righteousness that are actually the commands of God given to us that we may obtain salvation.

Acts 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
Acts 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Very often we speak of works in this forum and are not specific as to which works we are referring to. In my dialog about imputed righteousness I am speaking of the last example of works, the obedience a person shows that demonstrates that they believe.

Question: I my wife told me she loved me but her actions demonstrate otherwise does she truly love me? No

It's the same way with God, he says if you love me keep my commandments

1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1 John 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

He commands us to repent, he commands us to be baptized, he commands us to walk in the light and if we sin (which we will do sometimes) he commands us to confess our faults

I was talking about the salvation that comes from faith in Jesus Christ. What verse (s) pertain to this statement (And then there are works of righteousness that are actually the commands of God given to us that we may obtain salvation.)?

I can see you have many good points, but some are a bit foreign to me in my understanding, so far, of the Word. Like Acts 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him. Is that verse saying to you that after we do works we are accepted, or saved? Does accepted mean saved here in your opinion? I mean it might, I'm going to look some things up but I don't think that is what that verse means.

I understand that Jesus fulfilled the Law, but He did not remove it. But because He fulfilled it, I don't have to. Now don't misunderstand me, because I want to walk as Jesus walked, but God knew I could not. I mean I could NOT fulfill the law, I needed a Savior, Redeemer.

Denise, a sister in Christ

Bro Berryl
Oct 25th 2013, 05:19 PM
Bro Berryl that is probably the best I have ever heard someone explain their view from a works=salvation standpoint. I appreciate your comment but would you tell me how it applies to 1 Cor. 3:10-15?



10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

All praise goes to God, my viewpoint is that works alone doesn't equal salvation neither does faith alone but that they both go together. Just want to clarify so we are both on the same page.

The scripture you gave in 1 Cor. 3 speaks of the second example of works that I gave in post #31

TBM 11
Oct 25th 2013, 05:25 PM
All praise goes to God, my viewpoint is that works alone doesn't equal salvation neither does faith alone but that they both go together. Just want to clarify so we are both on the same page.

The scripture you gave in 1 Cor. 3 speaks of the second example of works that I gave in post #31

Yes I should have clarified your view of faith+works=salvation. On your second example can you clarify please?

Oregongrown
Oct 25th 2013, 05:25 PM
All praise goes to God, my viewpoint is that works alone doesn't equal salvation neither does faith alone but that they both go together. Just want to clarify so we are both on the same page.

The scripture you gave in 1 Cor. 3 speaks of the second example of works that I gave in post #31

We won't be on the same page as long as you think "works" has anything to do with our initial salvation. Can you tell me anywhere in scripture that says that we need something other than faith to be "saved"? I'll believe it only then. God bless, denise, a sister in Christ

I'm sorry, your post wasn't to me, I butted in, apologies:(

TBM 11
Oct 25th 2013, 05:30 PM
Zokay, I butted in first! :D

Bro Berryl
Oct 25th 2013, 05:32 PM
I was talking about the salvation that comes from faith in Jesus Christ. What verse (s) pertain to this statement (And then there are works of righteousness that are actually the commands of God given to us that we may obtain salvation.)?

I didn't type the verses I just said the commands but if you would like the verses that are works of righteousness to be done before salvation here they are along with a biblical example;

Hear God's word: Romans 10:17
Believe God's word: Hebrews 11:6
Repentance: Acts 17:6
Confession: Romans 10:10
Baptism: Acts 2:38

Act 8:35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
Act 8:36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
Act 8:37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
Act 8:38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
Act 8:39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.

Oregongrown
Oct 25th 2013, 05:36 PM
We won't be on the same page as long as you think "works" has anything to do with our initial salvation. Can you tell me anywhere in scripture that says that we need something other than faith to be "saved"? I'll believe it only then. God bless, denise, a sister in Christ

I'm sorry, your post wasn't to me, I butted in, apologies:(

Yeah, but BB was addressing you :blush: but ok, I forgive myself ;)

Bro Berryl
Oct 25th 2013, 05:58 PM
Yes I should have clarified your view of faith+works=salvation. On your second example can you clarify please?

Sure TBM, my second example is this:

Works done after we are saved are called good works most of the time in scripture;

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.


To clarify using your scripture in 1 Cor. the saints along with teachers were building on the foundation that Paul preached. Some did a good job of building up Christians (gold, silver, precious stones) others work of building up Christians represented (wood, hay, stubble). The work (which is what were talking about) is something done after a person is saved.

I hope this clarifies it for you

Oregongrown
Oct 25th 2013, 06:01 PM
I didn't type the verses I just said the commands but if you would like the verses that are works of righteousness to be done before salvation here they are along with a biblical example;

Hear God's word: Romans 10:17
Believe God's word: Hebrews 11:6
Repentance: Acts 17:6
Confession: Romans 10:10
Baptism: Acts 2:38

Act 8:35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
Act 8:36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
Act 8:37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
Act 8:38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
Act 8:39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.

Well, since you don't know them by heart, or you type with 2 fingers:lol: So you're going to make me do the work (see, you did manage to get me doing "works" ;) ) since I need to see the verses, since I don't know them by heart, type with 10 fingers, but fumble, a lot!!
Romans 10:17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
Acts 17:6 But when they did not find them, they dragged Jason and some brethren to the rulers of the city, crying out, “These who have turned the world upside down have come here too.
Romans 10:10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Romans 10:17 doesn't show me "works", hearing by the Word of God, or coming from Jesus, THE Word, He preached, and some believed, but they did nothing to earn it, or work for it, I don't see that.

Hebrews 11:6 this verse says to me that we believe by faith, and we seek Him, His truth for our lives.

Acts 17:6 I don't see how this fits with what we are talking about?

Romans 10:10 this is all one act to me, I believe in my heart and speak asking for Him to be my Lord and Savior.

Acts 2:38 repentance here I believe is after they have been saved?

I am not saying I "know" this is what I am getting from the scriptures.

Also, I believe with all that God has revealed so far, to me, that there can be nothing attributed to me for my salvation, nothing. Man/woman's ego is too big, and a real stumbling block. If I thought "I" did anything to deserve my salvation, I would probably boast. Paul knew about that.

denise, ysic

and the story of the eunuch doesn't tell me he did anything for his salvation. We get saved, then we profess it in public, or with at least one person, by being baptized.

Oregongrown
Oct 25th 2013, 06:13 PM
When we sin it is because we have departed from the living way in Christ...however briefly. So then sin is a gauge of the level we are walking at. If we sin regularly then we are NOT abiding in the presence of Christ....we are still walking in the power of the old man who cannot overcome sin. Only those who have forsaken the power of the flesh to put on Christ can overcome sin in this world.

I agree, although I do not believe anyone "in the flesh" is ever free of that flesh until we get to escape it at our physical death. denise, a sister in Christ

Bro Berryl
Oct 25th 2013, 06:24 PM
My mistake about Acts 17, I should have looked up the scripture. The one I wanted was Acts 17:30

Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

You're right about the eunuch, he didn't do physical work like being circumcised or keeping the sabbath, but the point is that he was obedient to the commands of God.

My position is that faith and obedience go together to bring about salvation. Didn't the eunuch hear the word? Yes. Did he believe it? Yes. Did he repent? Yes. Did he confess? Yes. Was he baptized? Yes.

Those are the commands of God, for a person to ignore the will of God and hold firm to what they believe is in my opinion a person who has not repented.

If the eunuch heard the preaching of Philip concerning Jesus and said within his heart "I've been doing just fine as a follower of God according to the Law of Moses I don't have to follow Christ" and never stopped the chariot and received baptism would he have been a follower of Christ or a follower of Moses?

The same is true today when a person hears the message of the gospel. Although they have heard what Jesus did for them if they determine within themselves that they are alright with God knowing that that did not do what Jesus said to do the way Jesus said to do it they are actually following something different that Jesus.

TBM 11
Oct 25th 2013, 06:25 PM
Sure TBM, my second example is this:

Works done after we are saved are called good works most of the time in scripture;

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.


To clarify using your scripture in 1 Cor. the saints along with teachers were building on the foundation that Paul preached. Some did a good job of building up Christians (gold, silver, precious stones) others work of building up Christians represented (wood, hay, stubble). The work (which is what were talking about) is something done after a person is saved.

I hope this clarifies it for you

Works done AFTER WE ARE SAVED. Does that mean the works keep us saved after we are saved?

1Cor. is telling us that our works will either stand (which we would be rewarded for) or burn up. But, we ourselves would be saved. Correct? So I am trying to find out how these verses that you have given, and the verses that I have given, can lead anyone to believe that works have any part in saving us. I agree they are evidence in ones life of being saved, I just don't see them as being a part of what saves us.

Thanks for your patience with me here. :)

Oregongrown
Oct 25th 2013, 06:35 PM
My mistake about Acts 17, I should have looked up the scripture. The one I wanted was Acts 17:30

Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

You're right about the eunuch, he didn't do physical work like being circumcised or keeping the sabbath, but the point is that he was obedient to the commands of God.

My position is that faith and obedience go together to bring about salvation. Didn't the eunuch hear the word? Yes. Did he believe it? Yes. Did he repent? Yes. Did he confess? Yes. Was he baptized? Yes.

Those are the commands of God, for a person to ignore the will of God and hold firm to what they believe is in my opinion a person who has not repented.

If the eunuch heard the preaching of Philip concerning Jesus and said within his heart "I've been doing just fine as a follower of God according to the Law of Moses I don't have to follow Christ" and never stopped the chariot and received baptism would he have been a follower of Christ or a follower of Moses?

The same is true today when a person hears the message of the gospel. Although they have heard what Jesus did for them if they determine within themselves that they are alright with God knowing that that did not do what Jesus said to do the way Jesus said to do it they are actually following something different that Jesus.

So, do you think it takes anything of our own selves (our will) to be saved?

Bro Berryl
Oct 25th 2013, 09:16 PM
Works done AFTER WE ARE SAVED. Does that mean the works keep us saved after we are saved?

1Cor. is telling us that our works will either stand (which we would be rewarded for) or burn up. But, we ourselves would be saved. Correct? So I am trying to find out how these verses that you have given, and the verses that I have given, can lead anyone to believe that works have any part in saving us. I agree they are evidence in ones life of being saved, I just don't see them as being a part of what saves us.

Thanks for your patience with me here. :)

Let me state for the record that I believe that we are saved by the system of faith in Jesus Christ and not by the system of the Law. In other words, there is nothing a person can do that God would look at and pronounce that person as being righteous. I believe that is what the apostle means in this passage of scripture;

Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Romans 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

I believe the system of faith works this way; a person receives the message of the gospel in their heart causing them to turn away from ungodliness and turn to the living God who is able to save their soul.

In humble submission they die to their old way of life in the flesh in baptism, they then are raised to walk in a new spiritual life in Christ.

Nothing I mentioned can be classified as earning their salvation, they have merely obeyed the teachings of Jesus.

Oregongrown
Oct 25th 2013, 09:35 PM
Nothing I mentioned can be classified as earning their salvation, they have merely obeyed the teachings of Jesus.



Suffice to say that no one is saved by faith only and no one is saved by works only.

Ok, I'm butting in here, this is what led me to believe that you meant works had to accompany faith to be saved, our "human" works.

I feel you might be complicating something very simple, not that that is your intention. I just don't understand if you aren't out to prove that works of our own must accompany faith in order to be saved, then what are you trying to show?

Were you trying to show Jesus works are why we get to be saved by our faith?

:hmm:

Bro Berryl
Oct 25th 2013, 10:05 PM
Ok, I'm butting in here, this is what led me to believe that you meant works had to accompany faith to be saved, our "human" works.

I feel you might be complicating something very simple, not that that is your intention. I just don't understand if you aren't out to prove that works of our own must accompany faith in order to be saved, then what are you trying to show?

Were you trying to show Jesus works are why we get to be saved by our faith?

:hmm:

I'm sorry if I seem complicating, you're right that is not my intention. Perhaps it seems confusing because it doesn't fit into your understanding of salvation. I don't think I wrote anything that suggests that I believe human works must accompany faith in order to be saved.

I thought I made it clear that repentance and baptism are not human works (remember my post describing the different ways works is taught in the bible), there is nothing meritorious about repentance or baptism.

What am I trying to show? I am trying to show that righteousness is imputed to us because of our demonstration of faith. Look at the hall of faith in Hebrews 11 and see that every person mentioned demonstrated their faith before they were blessed.

Heb. 11:4 Abel offered
Heb. 11:7 Noah prepared a ark
Heb. 11:8-9 Abraham obeyed and went out and sojourned
Heb. 11:17 offered up Isaac
Heb. 11:27 Moses forsook Egypt
Heb. 11:29 the children of Israel passed through the Red Sea
Heb. 11:30 the walls of Jericho fell when compassed 7 times

I think you see the point, faith is always demonstrated by doing what God tells us to do. Does that mean we earned the blessing? No, that means we love God enough to forsake our desire to live in the flesh and rather live by faith.

Oregongrown
Oct 25th 2013, 10:20 PM
I'm sorry if I seem complicating, you're right that is not my intention. Perhaps it seems confusing because it doesn't fit into your understanding of salvation. I don't think I wrote anything that suggests that I believe human works must accompany faith in order to be saved.

I thought I made it clear that repentance and baptism are not human works (remember my post describing the different ways works is taught in the bible), there is nothing meritorious about repentance or baptism.

What am I trying to show? I am trying to show that righteousness is imputed to us because of our demonstration of faith. Look at the hall of faith in Hebrews 11 and see that every person mentioned demonstrated their faith before they were blessed.

Heb. 11:4 Abel offered
Heb. 11:7 Noah prepared a ark
Heb. 11:8-9 Abraham obeyed and went out and sojourned
Heb. 11:17 offered up Isaac
Heb. 11:27 Moses forsook Egypt
Heb. 11:29 the children of Israel passed through the Red Sea
Heb. 11:30 the walls of Jericho fell when compassed 7 times

I think you see the point, faith is always demonstrated by doing what God tells us to do. Does that mean we earned the blessing? No, that means we love God enough to forsake our desire to live in the flesh and rather live by faith.

Ok, I will just leave it where it is. I think that you "may" have said what others had already, I don't understand why your replies seemed so convoluted to me, but I definitely give you the benefit of the doubt. It could be that your speech is just more eloquent than mine. My stand stays the same on salvation being a gift (no one deserves) freely given by faith in Christ alone, and nothing I could, can or will do would ever earn it.

Denise, a sister in Christ

Bro Berryl
Oct 25th 2013, 10:36 PM
Ok, I will just leave it where it is. I think that you "may" have said what others had already, I don't understand why your replies seemed so convoluted to me, but I definitely give you the benefit of the doubt. It could be that your speech is just more eloquent than mine. My stand stays the same on salvation being a gift (no one deserves) freely given by faith in Christ alone, and nothing I could, can or will do would ever earn it.

Denise, a sister in Christ

I just wrote a piece in the thread "salvation is not by works" that you might find interesting. My prayer is that you will continue to seek this very interesting topic

Oregongrown
Oct 25th 2013, 10:43 PM
You're kidding, do you think I am a glutton for punishment:lol: I'm staying away from your posts from now on:giveup:

dan
Oct 26th 2013, 02:29 AM
God gave the Jews The Law, and the OT, so they could believe in a manner of which He approved.

Likewise, I think, God has given us the OT and the NT to allow us to believe in the correct manner.

Only by believing the scriptures can we have Imputed Righteousness.

mailmandan
Oct 26th 2013, 12:21 PM
I didn't type the verses I just said the commands but if you would like the verses that are works of righteousness to be done before salvation here they are along with a biblical example;

Hear God's word: Romans 10:17
Believe God's word: Hebrews 11:6
Repentance: Acts 17:6
Confession: Romans 10:10
Baptism: Acts 2:38

This 5 step plan of salvation is taught in the church of Christ. Do you attend the church of Christ? I often hear this statement from people who attend the church of Christ - "It is works of obedience that help to save us, not works of the law or works of merit." Do you agree with that statement?

Bro Berryl
Oct 26th 2013, 12:36 PM
This 5 step plan of salvation is taught in the church of Christ. Do you attend the church of Christ? I often hear this statement from people who attend the church of Christ - "It is works of obedience that help to save us, not works of the law or works of merit." Do you agree with that statement?

Yes I do attend the church of Christ. I don't refer to doing God's will as a five step plan but I understand what you are asking me.

As for your second point I have been saying all along that one is not saved by works alone nor by faith alone, they both work together to bring a person into a relationship with God.

episkopos
Oct 26th 2013, 01:10 PM
This 5 step plan of salvation is taught in the church of Christ. Do you attend the church of Christ? I often hear this statement from people who attend the church of Christ - "It is works of obedience that help to save us, not works of the law or works of merit." Do you agree with that statement?

Salvation is based on obedience. The grace of God is given to us in order that we be as obedient as Jesus...to a righteousness on the standard of God...not just what men can do.

TBM 11
Oct 26th 2013, 01:38 PM
Salvation is based on obedience. The grace of God is given to us in order that we be as obedient as Jesus...to a righteousness on the standard of God...not just what men can do.

Not that I am trying to advocate living any lifestyle you desire as a Christian but, at what level of disobedience do you become lost? Was Abraham obedient? Was David obedient? It is my belief that our obedience does affect our fellowship, but not our salvation. We have already been justified, we can only pursue holiness.

Bro Berryl
Oct 26th 2013, 01:48 PM
Not that I am trying to advocate living any lifestyle you desire as a Christian but, at what level of disobedience do you become lost? Was Abraham obedient? Was David obedient? It is my belief that our obedience does affect our fellowship, but not our salvation. We have already been justified, we can only pursue holiness.

Since we all from time to time will be disobedient the determining factor is if we are willing to repent. The only disobedience that will cause us to miss heaven are those we refuse to repent from.

Bro Berryl
Oct 26th 2013, 01:52 PM
Salvation is based on obedience. The grace of God is given to us in order that we be as obedient as Jesus...to a righteousness on the standard of God...not just what men can do.


Amen to that, the apostle Paul in his letter to the church at Rome says the same thing.

Romans 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
Romans 16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

episkopos
Oct 26th 2013, 02:22 PM
Not that I am trying to advocate living any lifestyle you desire as a Christian but, at what level of disobedience do you become lost? Was Abraham obedient? Was David obedient? It is my belief that our obedience does affect our fellowship, but not our salvation. We have already been justified, we can only pursue holiness.

Without a standard of perfection is Christ, believers will settle for an orbit that turns at a comfortable distance away from Christ. When we testify to a life in such an orbit, we have in fact interpreted the scriptures for ourselves and have decided on less than the walk in victory that Jesus paid the price to enable us to walk in.

Neanias
Oct 26th 2013, 05:41 PM
To whom more is given, more is expected.

We have a perfect provision of new life in Christ Jesus, and a new nature and new man which allows us to walk as he walked by grace. This provision does not make God require less of us, but more, because now we are without excuse, having everything that is necessary for obedience.

So we walk in the fear of the Lord, working out our salvation and perfecting holiness. Everyone who hopes in Him purifies himself just as he is pure. :)

TBM 11
Oct 26th 2013, 06:39 PM
To whom more is given, more is expected.

We have a perfect provision of new life in Christ Jesus, and a new nature and new man which allows us to walk as he walked by grace. This provision does not make God require less of us, but more, because now we are without excuse, having everything that is necessary for obedience.

So we walk in the fear of the Lord, working out our salvation and perfecting holiness. Everyone who hopes in Him purifies himself just as he is pure. :)

Have you purified yourself? If you mean justified, that was done when you believed in Him. If you mean the process of conforming yourself to Him, that is a process that will never be completed.

episkopos
Oct 26th 2013, 07:14 PM
Have you purified yourself? If you mean justified, that was done when you believed in Him. If you mean the process of conforming yourself to Him, that is a process that will never be completed.

There is a purity aspect of this and a maturity aspect of being complete in Christ. Anybody can be made pure by the blood of Christ that believes into Christ. We are made 100% pure through the blood of Christ. Maturity causes us to choose to remain in His purity by abiding always in Christ thus MAINTAINING that purity through abiding (remaining). So then a mature Christian learns to be fully dependent on God in all things. A mature Christian does not leave the presence of God. But even a novice has the fulness of Christ instantly by entering into Christ. The blood of Jesus cleanses us from ALL sin and stain.

Neanias
Oct 27th 2013, 05:37 AM
Have you purified yourself? If you mean justified, that was done when you believed in Him. If you mean the process of conforming yourself to Him, that is a process that will never be completed.

Talk about blatant unbelief in the transforming power of Christ!

Was Christ wrong when he said "The student is not above the teacher, but everyone who is fully trained will be like their teacher"?

mailmandan
Oct 27th 2013, 10:49 AM
As for your second point I have been saying all along that one is not saved by works alone nor by faith alone, they both work together to bring a person into a relationship with God.

So you are saying that we are saved by faith and works? I believe that faith is the root and works are the fruit of our salvation, but it sounds to me like you are saying that BOTH faith AND works are the root of our salvation. The "whole picture", rests on cause and effect. Do we do good works TO QUALIFY for God's grace and establish a relationship with God? Or is our relationship with God's established through faith in Christ which then consequently leads TO good works? Do we do good works because of faith, or is our faith caused by the good works that we do? Which is cause and which is effect?

mailmandan
Oct 27th 2013, 11:09 AM
Salvation is based on obedience. The grace of God is given to us in order that we be as obedient as Jesus...to a righteousness on the standard of God...not just what men can do.

Did Paul say that we are saved by grace through obedience? Or by grace through faith and obedience in Ephesians 2:8,9? Are we saved by grace through faith in Christ or are we saved by grace through being as obedient as Jesus? Are we justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus (Romans 3:24) or are we justified (not freely) by His grace through sinless perfect performance?


Amen to that, the apostle Paul in his letter to the church at Rome says the same thing.

Romans 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
Romans 16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

Where did Paul say that salvation is based on obedience/works which follow faith? Although Paul can speak of people’s initial response of coming to faith in Christ as an act of obedience, in which he describes it as "obeying the gospel" (Romans 10:16), "But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?" The purpose of Paul’s apostleship was not merely to bring people to conversion but also to bring about transformed lives that were consistently obedient to God. Notice in Romans 1:5, Paul said they HAVE (already) received grace and apostleship FOR or UNTO obedience to the faith. Just as in Ephesians 2:8-10, Paul said that we are saved by grace through faith, not works, then created in Christ Jesus FOR or UNTO good works. We are clearly saved FOR good works, NOT by good works. In Romans 1:5, Paul did not say they FINALLY received grace and apostleship AFTER they produced multiple acts of obedience. We have access by FAITH into GRACE.. (Romans 5:2) not faith and obedience. We are saved through faith first, then "unto" obedience (good works).

Bro Berryl
Oct 27th 2013, 12:06 PM
So you are saying that we are saved by faith and works? I believe that faith is the root and works are the fruit of our salvation, but it sounds to me like you are saying that BOTH faith AND works are the root of our salvation. The "whole picture", rests on cause and effect. Do we do good works TO QUALIFY for God's grace and establish a relationship with God? Or is our relationship with God's established through faith in Christ which then consequently leads TO good works? Do we do good works because of faith, or is our faith caused by the good works that we do? Which is cause and which is effect?

These are some great questions and I don't wish to overlook any of them even though I know they have been covered already in a number of posts to this thread.

In short I want to say that it all depends on how you understand the word believe. We can use the words believe or faith to mean having a mental understanding of something but when it comes to the gospel I think it goes beyond that. I think we must have action to go along with what we know in our heart.

I cited a number of Old Testament saints from Hebrews 11 that every time you read they had faith it was followed by action. Noah believed and built the ark, Abraham believed and left his homeland etc....

Even in your own home, if someone close to you says "I love you" and that person's action doesn't show it, do they really love you?

John the baptist told the people who came out to hear him preach to repent and be baptized and follow He who would come after, that being Jesus Christ. Some Jewish leaders believed but they would not confess Christ for fear of being put out of the synagogue (John 12:42) showing us that belief must be followed up by action that shows you believe.

Does that action earn your salvation? Of course not, it merely gives recognition to that which is in your heart. Jesus commanded the same thing John commanded, that a person repent, be baptized and follow him. Does that mean that a person earned their salvation by doing what Jesus said to do? Of course not.

episkopos
Oct 27th 2013, 12:31 PM
Did Paul say that we are saved by grace through obedience? Or by grace through faith and obedience in Ephesians 2:8,9? Are we saved by grace through faith in Christ or are we saved by grace through being as obedient as Jesus? Are we justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus (Romans 3:24) or are we justified (not freely) by His grace through sinless perfect performance?


The means of our salvation is the power that is from heaven to walk as Jesus walked...also called grace. One would be safe to assume that Jesus obeyed the will of the Father. And one would be safe to assume that following Christ means we would also do the will of the Father through the strength He provides us to that end.

Do you understand what you are reading or are you looking for word formulations?

mailmandan
Oct 27th 2013, 12:52 PM
In short I want to say that it all depends on how you understand the word believe. We can use the words believe or faith to mean having a mental understanding of something but when it comes to the gospel I think it goes beyond that. I think we must have action to go along with what we know in our heart.

To believe or have faith in Christ that saves goes beyond simply believing "mental assent" in the existence and historical facts about Christ. Saving belief/faith trusts exclusively in Christ for salvation. To believe the gospel goes beyond simply believing "mental assent" that the death, burial and resurrection of Christ "happened." We must not only believe that it happened, but we must trust in Christ's finished work of redemption as the allsufficient means of our salvation. Action/good works which follow saving faith in Christ are the fruit and demonstrative evidence of our faith in Christ, but not the means of our salvation.


I cited a number of Old Testament saints from Hebrews 11 that every time you read they had faith it was followed by action. Noah believed and built the ark, Abraham believed and left his homeland etc....

Yes, but Noah had already "found grace" (Genesis 6:8), was "a preacher of righteousness" (2 Peter 2:5), and "walked with God" BEFORE he built the ark. His obedience was a DEMONSTRATION of his faith, not the origin of it. Abraham believed and left his home but it was not until Genesis 15:6 when God brought him outside and said, "Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be." And he believed in the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness. Action/good works substantiate and confirm our faith, yet we are saved through faith then the works follow.


Even in your own home, if someone close to you says "I love you" and that person's action doesn't show it, do they really love you?

Exactly! Good point. Just as James points out in James 2:14 - What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? What kind of faith would that be? An empty professon of faith. A dead faith.


John the baptist told the people who came out to hear him preach to repent and be baptized and follow He who would come after, that being Jesus Christ. Some Jewish leaders believed but they would not confess Christ for fear of being put out of the synagogue (John 12:42) showing us that belief must be followed up by action that shows you believe.

True, but in isolated situations, people can have weak moments. Their unwillingness to confess Christ throws some doubt on the complete genuineness of the faith of these men, but they may have only had a weak moment and failed to confess Christ in this situation in front of the Pharisees. Did they confess Christ in other situations? The Apostle Peter at one point failed to confess Jesus before men (John 18:17,25-27), but in another situation he boldly confessed Him (Acts 4:8-13). We know that Peter was saved, even though he had a weak moment. Could the same be true for these Jewish leaders as well?


Does that action earn your salvation? Of course not, it merely gives recognition to that which is in your heart.

Amen! We certainly cannot earn our salvation through our actions, but our actions demonstrate what is in our heart. We show our faith by our works (James 2:18). But we don't want to put the cart before the horse and say that we are saved by these works.


Jesus commanded the same thing John commanded, that a person repent, be baptized and follow him. Does that mean that a person earned their salvation by doing what Jesus said to do? Of course not.

Again, we certainly don't earn our salvation through anything that we do. So at what point are we saved? After repentance and belief but before baptism and following Him? After baptism? After we follow Him? I believe that we are saved through repentance/faith prior to water baptism and following Him, then we proceed to be water baptized and follow Him. I believe that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 3:19; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9). If additional requirements are to be performed after one believes in Christ for salvation in order to become saved, then why would God make so many statements in which He promises salvation to those who BELIEVE? (John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 5:24; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13;39; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5 etc..).

In receiving salvation, repentance is a change of mind about our sinful position and need for Christ to save us and the new direction of this change of mind is faith in Christ for salvation. Two sides to the same coin. Some people place repentance "after" faith in receiving salvation and simply define it as "turning from your sins." If turning from your sins means to stop sinning, then people can only be saved if they stop sinning. And it is unlikely that anyone has ever been saved, since we don't know anyone who has ever completely stopped sinning.

mailmandan
Oct 27th 2013, 01:17 PM
The means of our salvation is the power that is from heaven to walk as Jesus walked...also called grace.

Christ's finished work of redemption is the allsufficient means of our salvation. Even if we did walk exactly as Jesus walked, sinless, without fault of defect, flawless, from this day forward, that would still not be the means of our salvation. Walking as Jesus walked is not a supplement that we accomplish and add to Christ's finished work of redemption in order to help Him save us. We are justified freely by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus (Romans 3:24). Not by some other means.


One would be safe to assume that Jesus obeyed the will of the Father. And one would be safe to assume that following Christ means we would also do the will of the Father through the strength He provides us to that end.

And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day (John 6:40). The Father's will for us after we have been saved through faith is to follow Christ through the strength He provides us. This is what we are saved FOR.


Do you understand what you are reading or are you looking for word formulations?

Saved through faith, not works, then created in Christ Jesus unto/for good works is not a formula. It is Scripture (Ephesians 2:8-10). Receiving salvation through a sinless perfect walk is a formula and is works based performance.

episkopos
Oct 27th 2013, 02:35 PM
Christ's finished work of redemption is the allsufficient means of our salvation. Even if we did walk exactly as Jesus walked, sinless, without fault of defect, flawless, from this day forward, that would still not be the means of our salvation.

The means of our salvation IS what causes us to overcome sin. The means of a raincoat is what keeps us dry in wet weather. The means of sailing the seas is a boat...etc Don't be religious about this. God's ways work in real life. God doesn't have a fantasy world...we do that. So what God has done is now being shown in this reality. We experience the salvation provision by the means we have been given. Christianity is a means to fulfilling the will of God. Christianity is not a make-believe denial of the present reality. It OVERCOMES the present reality. Why can't you see this? A miracle is not a miracle unless it is manifested in this reality. So it is with God's grace provision. Through Christ (our means) we overcome sin just as He did.

Rev_3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Try to understand the purpose of God...forget what you seem to be benefiting from for just one moment.



Walking as Jesus walked is not a supplement that we accomplish and add to Christ's finished work of redemption in order to help Him save us. We are justified freely by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus (Romans 3:24). Not by some other means.


Walking as Jesus walked IS our salvation and freedom from bondage to sin. You are making up an arbitrary salvation that does not address what we are being saved from.



And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day (John 6:40). The Father's will for us after we have been saved through faith is to follow Christ through the strength He provides us. This is what we are saved FOR.

We are saved by entering into Christ as Noah entered the ark. Christ is our abiding place. In Him there is perfect peace and joy and the power of the life to come. His salvation is complete...without stain of sin...pure and spotless.




Saved through faith, not works, then created in Christ Jesus unto/for good works is not a formula. It is Scripture (Ephesians 2:8-10). Receiving salvation through a sinless perfect walk is a formula and is works based performance.


The proof that we are in Christ is that we don't sin. Anybody can make up a religion that has sin in it. But only in Christ are we truly saved from sin. What is your testimony on this? Are you preaching a powerless gospel? Consider this please! Is the God you preach unable to save you from sin? Is God so slack that He has given up trying to redeem us from our wickedness that He has to mollycoddle us into just believing that one day He will be able to save us? I will tell you that it is the adversary who teaches that. The race of faith is in this life not the next. It is now that we are called on to have faith unto victory...NOW!


Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Walking in the resurrected life of Christ IS our salvation provision that is called "grace". We enter this by faith.

TrustGzus
Oct 27th 2013, 03:19 PM
What mailmandan is posting in this thread is classic Christian theology. He's making a biblical distinction between justification and sanctification and glorification. These are three distinct things with three distinct meanings. Dan is not blending them together and confounding them. He is not confusing glorification with justification. What he is also doing is not isolating them so much as to say a person can have one and not have the others. If one is justified, the other two things will happen. Sanctification happens. Glorification happens.

episkopos
Oct 27th 2013, 03:38 PM
What mailmandan is posting in this thread is classic Christian theology. He's making a biblical distinction between justification and sanctification and glorification. These are three distinct things with three distinct meanings. Dan is not blending them together and confounding them. He is not confusing glorification with justification. What he is also doing is not isolating them so much as to say a person can have one and not have the others. If one is justified, the other two things will happen. Sanctification happens. Glorification happens.

It is too easy to reduce the gospel to a believing in one's own salvation. If we believe we are saved...does that make it so? We are called to believe INTO Christ...not believe we are saved by our beliefs.

So then evangelization consists of getting others to also believe they are saved??


Where is the actual testimony whereby sinners break down in repentance before the Lord's people? Are we just to indoctrinate people into a philosophy and a put-on mindset whereby one defends his own salvation? I believe and therefore I'm saved? Is this not just a human philosophical construct akin to "I think therefor I am"? (I think I'm saved so therefore I am)

We need to be saved from many things in this life far before we need to pass a judgment at the end of our lives. Where is the victory today? Where is the reality of Christ in His church?

Eyelog
Oct 27th 2013, 03:55 PM
The means of our salvation IS what causes us to overcome sin. ... Christianity is a means to fulfilling the will of God. Christianity ... OVERCOMES the present reality. ... A miracle is not a miracle unless it is manifested in this reality. ... Through Christ (our means) we overcome sin just as He did.

Rev_3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Walking as Jesus walked IS our salvation and freedom from bondage to sin. ... what we are being saved from.

We are saved by entering into Christ as Noah entered the ark. Christ is our abiding place.

The proof that we are in Christ is that we don't sin.

... The race of faith is in this life not the next. It is now that we are called on to have faith unto victory...NOW!

... [/B]Walking in the resurrected life of Christ IS our salvation provision that is called "grace". We enter this by faith.

Mailman and Episkopos:

I hardly believe you too are at odds on this. What each of you have extolled is correct. It's just that Episkopos is taking salvation by grace alone to its conclusion, which is obedience by faith, through grace alone, despite it requires real human effort to remain in Christ.

Frankly, I think what Episkopos is saying is (a) not contradicting what Mailmandan is saying in the least, yet (b) highly insightful.

I especially admire his emphasis:

... The race of faith is in this life not the next. It is now that we are called on to have faith unto victory...NOW!


At the same time, I deeply admire the strength and truth of Mailmandan's clear pronouncements of the true Gospel message, without which the likes thereof, most would be in error -- bc for most humans understanding Scripture and receiving it from trained clerics is a matter of happening upon the right authority figure to believe.

It is the language brother Episkopos uses which sometimes throws us. He is reaching for the deeper truths, and he expresses things as the Spirit leads. We would do well to listen, and to try to translate what he is saying into our own particular vernacular(s). IOW, translate and verify with the guy b4 launching into denial. We can't wisely choose our battles without knowing what we are striking out against. For one thing, I think the Lord uses Episkopos to say things in an apparently contentious manner in order to get our attention. And when what he says seems totally foreign, ... well, it's time to place the burden on him to explain. But 2 things seem true of him, and these color the translations: 1. He does not believe in OSAS (correct me if I'm wrong), and 2. He nevertheless does not believe we earn our salvation.

Among other things, i see Episkopos as saying, Hey, what is the reason we are saved by grace? Answer: So we will be freed to be overcomers in this present lifetime, and we do so by abiding in Christ. So, it behooves us to know how to abide in Christ such that we not only overcome all that belongs to the Old Self, but that we remain in Him, doing all Jesus expects of us.

I think he's saying, if you don't move on to victory in abiding in Him, what's the evidence you are saved? What's the evidence you have a clue why He saved you? What's the point in even thinking we are saved? For, He saved us to become like Jesus, in the righteousness and holiness of the truth, in every way, walking in spiritual victory constantly, and doing the work He prepared in advance for us to do.

I see no contradiction between that and what Mailmandan valiantly champions.

Eyelog
Oct 27th 2013, 04:07 PM
It is too easy to reduce the gospel to a believing in one's own salvation. If we believe we are saved...does that make it so? We are called to believe INTO Christ...not believe we are saved by our beliefs.

So then evangelization consists of getting others to also believe they are saved??


Where is the actual testimony whereby sinners break down in repentance before the Lord's people? Are we just to indoctrinate people into a philosophy and a put-on mindset whereby one defends his own salvation? I believe and therefore I'm saved? Is this not just a human philosophical construct akin to "I think therefor I am"? (I think I'm saved so therefore I am)

We need to be saved from many things in this life far before we need to pass a judgment at the end of our lives. Where is the victory today? Where is the reality of Christ in His church?

Very cogently stated. What's not to agree with?

Oregongrown
Oct 27th 2013, 04:29 PM
Talk about blatant unbelief in the transforming power of Christ!

Was Christ wrong when he said "The student is not above the teacher, but everyone who is fully trained will be like their teacher"?


No, you are the one that is incorrect, and I'm gonna say so at the risk of being kicked off here. You preach people being perfect after meeting Christ. That is not true because we are still stuck in these bags of flesh. To be conformed is a process, God begins the good work in us, and the conforming to the image of Christ the moment we are saved. I think blatant unbelief in what you are preaching is just, plain wisdom from God.

denise

Eyelog
Oct 27th 2013, 04:45 PM
If you mean the process of conforming yourself to Him, that is a process that will never be completed.

Hello, TBM11. I think several passages of Scripture would say we are to "be perfect as He [the Father] is perfect." I think that has been explained as "complete" about a dozen times on the forum that I have seen.

I think further that Paul talks about the "goal" and not "running without aim" and the like, sufficient to where we can see that the goal is perfection, and certainly it is completion of our "training in righteousness" and our ability to make our "obedience complete".

So, I am curious where the Scripture is which explains that we will NEVER be made perfect. I would very much like to read it with you. : )

Oregongrown
Oct 27th 2013, 04:46 PM
Anyone want to admit to believing in either or both of the following statements?


We believe that in the Bible is contained the word of God, that the Book of Mormon is an added witness for Christ, and that these contain the "fullness of the gospel."

We believe that through the atonement of Christ all men may be saved by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel; viz. : Faith in God and in the Lord Jesus Christ; Repentance and Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; Laying on of Hands for: (a) Ordination; (b) Blessing of Children; (c) Confirmation and the Gift of the Holy Ghost; (d) Healing of the Sick.


I'm getting a bit tired of hearing half-truths from the bible, only to see sneaky, false, teachings show up. At least you are keeping me on my toes so that is a good thing, but I wouldn't want a new believer buying into this unbiblical bull so I'm saying something every time I see it.

Oregongrown
Oct 27th 2013, 04:49 PM
Hello, TBM11. I think several passages of Scripture would say we are to "be perfect as He [the Father] is perfect." I think that has been explained as "complete" about a dozen times on the forum that I have seen.

I think further that Paul talks about the "goal" and not "running without aim" and the like, sufficient to where we can see that the goal is perfection, and certainly it is completion of our "training in righteousness" and our ability to make our "obedience complete".

So, I am curious where the Scripture is which explains that we will NEVER be made perfect. I would very much like to read it with you. : )

Even I know TBM meant on Earth, in the flesh. Your statements tell me you believe we are made perfect while still in the flesh, is that what you believe? Yes or no works really good.

episkopos
Oct 27th 2013, 04:59 PM
I don't believe that OSAS (Once sinned always sins) is biblical! ;)

Eyelog
Oct 27th 2013, 05:02 PM
Without being actually in Christ we can do nothing.

Episkopos, is being in Christ an all or nothing proposition, in your view? I tend to see it as always a matter of degree, even if for some, at times, that degree is 100%. I see folks with one foot in and one foot out, all the time.

Can they "do anything" in that in-between condition? I say, yes, absolutely. Can they do so consistently? I say, no, absolutely not. There are two types of inconsistency we face: (1) In a given area, one time I obey and the next time I don't. (2) In one area I obey, but in another area I do not.

The born-again newborn is in this in-between position, and this is why, as you say, we must put off what belongs to the Old Anthropos and put on what belongs to the New Anthropos.

My question is, can we do that permanently, or are we forced to put off and put on all over again, day after day, just as we must abide in Christ, walking in His Spirit, moment to moment?

Oregongrown
Oct 27th 2013, 05:12 PM
I don't believe that OSAS (Once sinned always sins) is biblical! ;)


What about my other question above? Would you mind addressing that one? Maybe OSAS isn't but I didn't ask about that particular topic.

Eyelog
Oct 27th 2013, 05:12 PM
Even I know TBM meant on Earth, in the flesh. Your statements tell me you believe we are made perfect while still in the flesh, is that what you believe? Yes or no works really good.

Oregongrown, please define what you mean by "perfect". If one means what I said it means, which is complete and mature, then absolutely, "Yes." If you mean having a track record of never having sinned, i think that is impossible, so "No."

However, each instance of faith, each moment, is perfected or completed by our actions, if they are consistent with obedience to Jesus Christ. James 2.

The whole 'perfection' concept is one that receives too little analysis and too much from the hip opining, leaving folks to conclude from the implications of most buzz phrases, like, 'nobody's perfect', that perfection in the Bible refers to a history of no sin. Very plainly, that is not what it means, anywhere in Scripture.

So far as becoming perfect in this lifetime, then, all the Scripture says to do so, and none of the Scripture says not to, or that we cannot. However, i am very open to seeing examples which might show my sweeping generalization to be false. i'd be glad to discuss it with anyone. : )

Oregongrown
Oct 27th 2013, 05:14 PM
Oregongrown, please define what you mean by "perfect". If one means what I said it means, which is complete and mature, then absolutely, "Yes." If you mean having a track record of never having sinned, i think that is impossible, so "No."

However, each instance of faith, each moment, is perfected or completed by our actions, if they are consistent with obedience to Jesus Christ. James 2.

The whole 'perfection' concept is one that receives too little analysis and too much from the hip opining, leaving folks to conclude from the implications of most buzz phrases, like, 'nobody's perfect', that perfection in the Bible refers to a history of no sin. Very plainly, that is not what it means, anywhere in Scripture.

So far as becoming perfect in this lifetime, then, all the Scripture says to do so, and none of the Scripture says not to, or that we cannot. However, i am very open to seeing examples which might show my sweeping generalization to be false. i'd be glad to discuss it with anyone. : )

Hard to just answer yes or no isn't it;) Oh, and perfect to me is Jesus.

Eyelog
Oct 27th 2013, 05:16 PM
Hard to just answer yes or no isn't it;)

It is, when folks want to speak imprecisely about a subject which requires precision in order to answer accurately. Good point.

But I did so answer, anyway.

If you want a simple yes or no, then ask a precise question. Indeed, you still have not clarified your question.

Oregongrown
Oct 27th 2013, 05:28 PM
It is, when folks want to speak imprecisely about a subject which requires precision in order to answer accurately. Good point.

But I did so answer, anyway.

If you want a simple yes or no, then ask a precise question. Indeed, you still have not clarified your question.

If you can't get the definition of perfect out of Jesus, then maybe you better go back to the bible. Jesus is precision.

TrustGzus
Oct 27th 2013, 05:30 PM
It is too easy to reduce the gospel to a believing in one's own salvation. If we believe we are saved...does that make it so? We are called to believe INTO Christ...not believe we are saved by our beliefs.

I never said we are saved by our beliefs. Not sure who you are refuting there, but it's not my position that you're countering. The rest of your post goes on to counter this idea which isn't my idea so I have no need to prop back up that view.

However, you say we are called to "believe INTO Christ". What does that even mean? I have never even seen the phrase "believe into" used in any translation. If you're going to use terms the Bible doesn't use, I'd like an explanation.

Justification is a result of what my screen name says . . . "Trust Jesus". When a person trusts in Jesus Christ and his finished work on the cross rather than trusting in their own righteousness (which is non-existent) or in their own works (which the value of is equal to that of a role of used toilet paper), then they will be saved.

episkopos
Oct 27th 2013, 05:42 PM
Episkopos, is being in Christ an all or nothing proposition, in your view? I tend to see it as always a matter of degree, even if for some, at times, that degree is 100%. I see folks with one foot in and one foot out, all the time.

I think that most Christians are stuck in Romans 7 when Paul also was flummoxed about how to obey God with these fleshly tents covering us. He was born again and had a heart that loved God's word...but his life would not conform to his deepest desire. What to do?

But by putting on Christ as His covering (armour) after having removed his old covering (the old man) he was then free to walk in freedom without sin. Be filled with the Spirit and stop sinning.


Can they "do anything" in that in-between condition? I say, yes, absolutely. Can they do so consistently? I say, no, absolutely not. There are two types of inconsistency we face: (1) In a given area, one time I obey and the next time I don't. (2) In one area I obey, but in another area I do not.


Agreed! The inner life we receive at new birth indeed counts for something. But in order to be plugged in to God's power we need first to put off the old man and become dead to sin.


The born-again newborn is in this in-between position, and this is why, as you say, we must put off what belongs to the Old Anthropos and put on what belongs to the New Anthropos.

Exactly. You can't expect a new born baby to overcome anything. A new born Christian is yet only half-baked. He needs to tarry in order to receive power from above. Then the victory comes after that.


My question is, can we do that permanently, or are we forced to put off and put on all over again, day after day, just as we must abide in Christ, walking in His Spirit, moment to moment?

There is a keeping power of God like a fridge magnet keeps a picture on the fridge. As long as the cares of this world don't pile up then the power of the magnet keeps you on the fridge. But at one point too many papers make you "fall out" of the Spirit because the magnet;s power has limits on how many cares you can pile up. We "fall out" of grace this way. Very few can see this let alone have experienced it.

episkopos
Oct 27th 2013, 05:47 PM
I never said we are saved by our beliefs. Not sure who you are refuting there, but it's not my position that you're countering. The rest of your post goes on to counter this idea which isn't my idea so I have no need to prop back up that view.

However, you say we are called to "believe INTO Christ". What does that even mean? I have never even seen the phrase "believe into" used in any translation. If you're going to use terms the Bible doesn't use, I'd like an explanation.

Justification is a result of what my screen name says . . . "Trust Jesus". When a person trusts in Jesus Christ and his finished work on the cross rather than trusting in their own righteousness (which is non-existent) or in their own works (which the value of is equal to that of a role of used toilet paper), then they will be saved.



John only says that..that we believe INTO Christ... The Greek word EIS...that is translated as "in" actually means "into" or "to". So our faith must take us to where Jesus is. You can't enter into Christ unless you go to where He is. Just like a house...you can't abide in a house unless you are in that location...then you can enter into that house. So it is with Christ. We must believe all the way To Christ so that we can enter INTO Him and remain there where He is in Zion.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

in G1519

G1519
εἰς
eis
ice
A primary preposition; to or into (indicating the point reached or entered), of place, time, or (figuratively) purpose (result, etc.); also in adverbial phrases.: - [abundant-] ly, against, among, as, at, [back-] ward, before, by, concerning, + continual, + far more exceeding, for [intent, purpose], fore, + forth, in (among, at unto, -so much that, -to), to the intent that, + of one mind, + never, of, (up-) on, + perish, + set at one again, (so) that, therefore (-unto), throughout, till, to (be, the end, -ward), (here-) until (-to), . . . ward, [where-] fore, with. Often used in composition with the same general import, but only with verbs (etc.) expressing motion (literally or figuratively.

So if you live on the west coast and you wish to obey the directive to believe TO New York city...then you must undertake a long journey that takes you to a real place where you can actually eat New York bagels!!!

TBM 11
Oct 27th 2013, 05:58 PM
Hello, TBM11. I think several passages of Scripture would say we are to "be perfect as He [the Father] is perfect." I think that has been explained as "complete" about a dozen times on the forum that I have seen.

I think further that Paul talks about the "goal" and not "running without aim" and the like, sufficient to where we can see that the goal is perfection, and certainly it is completion of our "training in righteousness" and our ability to make our "obedience complete".

So, I am curious where the Scripture is which explains that we will NEVER be made perfect. I would very much like to read it with you. : )

I have things to be attended to this afternoon. You want to discuss scripture with me? BRING SOME! I have not seen you produce much of anything to support the doctrine that you are pushing here. Bring out your best and I will be back later to discuss them with you. :)

episkopos
Oct 27th 2013, 06:04 PM
I have things to be attended to this afternoon. You want to discuss scripture with me? BRING SOME! I have not seen you produce much of anything to support the doctrine that you are pushing here. Bring out your best and I will be back later to discuss them with you. :)

Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.


Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Rom 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
Rom 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
Rom 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

TBM 11
Oct 27th 2013, 08:57 PM
Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.


Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Rom 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
Rom 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
Rom 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

Thank you episkopos, I am looking forward to discussing these scriptures with you.

Matt. 5:48 says "be perfect, just as our Father in heaven is perfect." We know that we can not be perfect. We will only be perfect when we leave this world of sin. Does God expect us to be perfect? No, He sent His Son to be a sacrifice for us because He knew that we could not be perfect. He does expect us to live our lives in a way that reflects righteousness. Which is what I interpret this scripture to mean. To practice righteousness is the same as pursuing holiness. The key words here are practice, and pursue.

1 John 3:9 "No one PRACTICES sin." If we are born of God, Gods seed is in us. Our spirit has been "regenerated" with a new nature. Gods nature which is love. We are given power over sin, but we still commit sin. Verse 10 says, "anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God." Again the key word here is "practice." If we are practicing something then we obviously have not mastered it yet.

Romans 6:1-12 are telling us not to be slaves to sin. That we have died to sin and are free from it. We are not to continue in sin that grace may abound.

I agree with all these verses. We are to live obedient, righteous, and for Him. I have never disputed that nor has anyone else that supports OSAS. But the scriptures that you have given lend no support to what you and others here have claimed. If you think it does, point out which ones and explain why. Do you think these verses tell us that our salvation is dependent on obedience? Where does it say that? Are you reading that into it? If you are, may I suggest we go a little further and see what these next two chapters in Romans tells us?

TrustGzus
Oct 27th 2013, 09:35 PM
John only says that..that we believe INTO Christ... The Greek word EIS...that is translated as "in" actually means "into" or "to". So our faith must take us to where Jesus is. You can't enter into Christ unless you go to where He is. Just like a house...you can't abide in a house unless you are in that location...then you can enter into that house. So it is with Christ. We must believe all the way To Christ so that we can enter INTO Him and remain there where He is in Zion.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

in G1519

G1519
εἰς
eis
ice
A primary preposition; to or into (indicating the point reached or entered), of place, time, or (figuratively) purpose (result, etc.); also in adverbial phrases.: - [abundant-] ly, against, among, as, at, [back-] ward, before, by, concerning, + continual, + far more exceeding, for [intent, purpose], fore, + forth, in (among, at unto, -so much that, -to), to the intent that, + of one mind, + never, of, (up-) on, + perish, + set at one again, (so) that, therefore (-unto), throughout, till, to (be, the end, -ward), (here-) until (-to), . . . ward, [where-] fore, with. Often used in composition with the same general import, but only with verbs (etc.) expressing motion (literally or figuratively.

So if you live on the west coast and you wish to obey the directive to believe TO New York city...then you must undertake a long journey that takes you to a real place where you can actually eat New York bagels!!!

So for sake of argument, let's grant what you say here. What does going "into" Jesus mean? I know what it means to go "into" my house. The English NT translates εἰς as "into" on all occasions where people do things such as enter a structure. Jesus isn't a place. He's not New York City. He is not a house.

As I read your post, I don't find it any more profound or clearer than the sound of one hand clapping. So tell me how is entering "into" Jesus any different than placing one's trust in Jesus and his finished work on the cross. Commenting on the Greek phase from John 3:16, πιστεύω εἰς αὐτόν, Greek scholar Wayne Grudem states . . .


Such an expression was rare or perhaps nonexistent in the secular Greek found outside the New Testament, but it was well suited to express the personal trust in Christ that is involved in saving faith.

Grudem, W. A. (2004). Systematic theology: an introduction to biblical doctrine (p. 711). Leicester, England; Grand Rapids, MI: Inter-Varsity Press; Zondervan Pub. House.

"Personal trust in Christ that is involved in saving faith" says Grudem. Sounds like what I'm saying. Do you agree with this?

episkopos
Oct 28th 2013, 12:25 AM
So for sake of argument, let's grant what you say here. What does going "into" Jesus mean? I know what it means to go "into" my house. The English NT translates εἰς as "into" on all occasions where people do things such as enter a structure. Jesus isn't a place. He's not New York City. He is not a house.

As I read your post, I don't find it any more profound or clearer than the sound of one hand clapping. So tell me how is entering "into" Jesus any different than placing one's trust in Jesus and his finished work on the cross. Commenting on the Greek phase from John 3:16, πιστεύω εἰς αὐτόν, Greek scholar Wayne Grudem states . . .



"Personal trust in Christ that is involved in saving faith" says Grudem. Sounds like what I'm saying. Do you agree with this?

What you do as a human involves human works. The problem is that men don't decide to walk in Christ per se. God decides who is ready for this. Jesus accepted the disciples whom God sent Him. So we can place all of our belief that we will someday be in heaven...but this does not affect anything in the spiritual reality. Believing into Christ is by grace through faith which places us in the power of Christ. It is resurrection power...miraculous walking in both heaven and earth simultaneously. When we walk this way the people see the fruit of the Spirit...love, joy and peace...AND POWER.


So we must believe TO where Jesus is...in the heavenly place. We can be said to be seated there where Jesus is when we walk in this resurrection life. This is the message of the gospel. It is nothing short of miraculous. But religious men stand against this because it cannot be controlled by men. We are not meant to figure out a religion based on the biblical wording that men can be comfortable with. The gospel is a scandal and a stumblingblock to men. Men cannot accept what grace really is. It is the power to walk as Jesus did without sin. Now believe the gospel (in spite of the impossible sound of it) and join in the fellowship of God and the saints.

TBM 11
Oct 28th 2013, 12:34 AM
It seems you are still trying to use your own words to describe a plan of salvation. Until you use biblical references to support what you are saying, with explanations of how these references support what you are saying, nothing you say should be taken by anyone reading this as having any merit as pertaining to Gods plan of salvation.

episkopos
Oct 28th 2013, 12:49 AM
It seems you are still trying to use your own words to describe a plan of salvation. Until you use biblical references to support what you are saying, with explanations of how these references support what you are saying, nothing you say should be taken by anyone reading this as having any merit as pertaining to Gods plan of salvation.


I'm trying to show the divine message without the verses that have been misunderstood. Once it is understood that the gospel is according to resurrection power... then everything falls into place. We are being saved by this new walk that is by faith. Those who believe into Jesus experience the eternal life...

Eyelog
Oct 28th 2013, 12:58 AM
So for sake of argument, ... As I read your post, I don't find it any more profound or clearer than the sound of one hand clapping.

I tried to rep you for that, TrustGzus. The sound of one hand clapping, in this case, is laughter. : )

Eyelog
Oct 28th 2013, 01:03 AM
... We are being saved ... [my emphasis]

Is this to say salvation is now (if we are in Him) and (hopefully) future, but not past in the sense of a done deal?

Neanias
Oct 28th 2013, 01:03 AM
No, you are the one that is incorrect, and I'm gonna say so at the risk of being kicked off here. You preach people being perfect after meeting Christ. That is not true because we are still stuck in these bags of flesh. To be conformed is a process, God begins the good work in us, and the conforming to the image of Christ the moment we are saved. I think blatant unbelief in what you are preaching is just, plain wisdom from God.

denise

I preach people being perfected in Christ, coming to a maturity where we walk as he walked. So is Jesus wrong when he says 'everyone who is fully trained will be like their teacher'? Was Christ not fully man? Was the provision of God for Christ not enough for Him to be wholly pleasing to the Father? Do we not have access through Christ to the same provision?

The Bible speaks of a provision that actually frees us from the power of sin, and says he came to take away sins and destroy the works of the devil.

Neanias
Oct 28th 2013, 01:10 AM
Anyone want to admit to believing in either or both of the following statements?


We believe that in the Bible is contained the word of God, that the Book of Mormon is an added witness for Christ, and that these contain the "fullness of the gospel."

We believe that through the atonement of Christ all men may be saved by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel; viz. : Faith in God and in the Lord Jesus Christ; Repentance and Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; Laying on of Hands for: (a) Ordination; (b) Blessing of Children; (c) Confirmation and the Gift of the Holy Ghost; (d) Healing of the Sick.


I'm getting a bit tired of hearing half-truths from the bible, only to see sneaky, false, teachings show up. At least you are keeping me on my toes so that is a good thing, but I wouldn't want a new believer buying into this unbiblical bull so I'm saying something every time I see it.

The half-truth is that God is able to forgive us our past sins but powerless to make us overcomers of the sinful nature in this present world. The half-truth is that God is not the all powerful God he proclaims to be, able to make men stand through his power and life just as he made Christ, who was tempted as us, to stand.

You should carefully consider what is being said and compare it to the biblical witness before making rash comments and suggesting false things about people.

episkopos
Oct 28th 2013, 01:10 AM
Is this to say salvation is now (if we are in Him) and (hopefully) future, but not past in the sense of a done deal?

If someone saves you from drowning today does that mean you can never die of drowning ever?

The salvation we experienced in the past is recorded in heaven. But a past victory does not assure a future victory. We fight the spiritual battle daily. That is why we need perseverance and faithfulness to finish the race in a continued victory.

TBM 11
Oct 28th 2013, 01:12 AM
Discussion closed as far as I am concerned until you use scripture to explain whatever it is you believe. You can't just spew out your words and expect me to have any idea where you get your belief from.

Oregongrown
Oct 28th 2013, 01:16 AM
I preach people being perfected in Christ, coming to a maturity where we walk as he walked. So is Jesus wrong when he says 'everyone who is fully trained will be like their teacher'? Was Christ not fully man? Was the provision of God for Christ not enough for Him to be wholly pleasing to the Father? Do we not have access through Christ to the same provision?

The Bible speaks of a provision that actually frees us from the power of sin, and says he came to take away sins and destroy the works of the devil.

Maybe you are someone that would answer my question I posted above. Do you believe either or both of these statements?:

We believe that in the Bible is contained the word of God, that the Book of Mormon is an added witness for Christ, and that these contain the "fullness of the gospel."

We believe that through the atonement of Christ all men may be saved by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel; viz. : Faith in God and in the Lord Jesus Christ; Repentance and Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; Laying on of Hands for: (a) Ordination; (b) Blessing of Children; (c) Confirmation and the Gift of the Holy Ghost; (d) Healing of the Sick.

Eyelog
Oct 28th 2013, 01:29 AM
If someone saves you from drowning today does that mean you can never die of drowning ever?

The salvation we experienced in the past is recorded in heaven. But a past victory does not assure a future victory. We fight the spiritual battle daily. That is why we need perseverance and faithfulness to finish the race in a continued victory.

I have found that most believers who believe they are saved by grace have a difficult enough time adding to their understanding Mailmandan's point about being saved to do good works from Ephes 2:10.

Where you are seeking to help folk reach for getting into Jesus in order to live lives of victorious obedience, power and joy, it can be a distraction to say anything at all that sounds to them as if you are tampering with their understanding of a past tense saved by grace. If they smell even a hint of continued works to justify staying saved, never-mind what you are really pointing at, and they will try to send you outa town on a rail, tarred and feathered.

So, as I talk of practical sanctification and walking in the spirit, I tend to completely bifurcate the two subjects of salvation and sanctification, and keep them separate, whether those subjects can really stay separate or not down the line of learning.

One loses the sense of urgency and the degree of the imperative to put off and on, and to abide in Christ, which would otherwise suface when the threat of a loss of salvation or a failure to attain to it is suggested. But at least the soteriological alarms are not deafening out the rest of what you are talking about.

After all, you appear to be speaking to those who take seriously salvation through grace by faith. If a person has that down, then they can always take up from there again, if by chance they ever do begin to take hold of your message concerning post-regeneration life in Christ. But implying things about their understanding of salvation itself completely closes the ears to anything else you have to say. At least that's been my experience with folk. ... Just look at how you and Neanias are being received by some here .... They really believe you are pushing some other kind of Gospel.

What's your take on this?

Eyelog
Oct 28th 2013, 01:38 AM
We believe that in the Bible is contained the word of God, that the Book of Mormon is an added witness for Christ, and that these contain the "fullness of the gospel."

Are we in the 'controversial' forum now? ... This ain't Kansas anymore ....

TBM 11
Oct 28th 2013, 01:44 AM
If someone saves you from drowning today does that mean you can never die of drowning ever?

The salvation we experienced in the past is recorded in heaven. But a past victory does not assure a future victory. We fight the spiritual battle daily. That is why we need perseverance and faithfulness to finish the race in a continued victory.

Need scripture reference on that. If you have any.

Eyelog
Oct 28th 2013, 02:26 AM
I'm getting a bit tired of hearing half-truths from the bible, only to see sneaky, false, teachings show up. At least you are keeping me on my toes so that is a good thing, but I wouldn't want a new believer buying into this unbiblical bull so I'm saying something every time I see it.

Quick! Call the moderator. Another belittling remark raises its head.

TrustGzus
Oct 28th 2013, 03:04 AM
So we must believe TO where Jesus is...in the heavenly place. We can be said to be seated there where Jesus is when we walk in this resurrection life. This is the message of the gospel.

To say that we can be said to be seated where Jesus is when we walk in the resurrection life is not the gospel. It is a perversion of the gospel. The gospel says we have been seated, past tense. I am seated there now!

Ephesians 2:4–10 (HCSB)
4*But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love that He had for us, 5*made us alive with the Messiah even though we were dead in trespasses. You are saved by grace! 6*Together with Christ Jesus He also raised us up and seated us in the heavens, 7*so that in the coming ages He might display the immeasurable riches of His grace through His kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8*For you are saved by grace through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God’s gift— 9*not from works, so that no one can boast. 10*For we are His creation, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared ahead of time so that we should walk in them.


It is nothing short of miraculous. But religious men stand against this because it cannot be controlled by men. We are not meant to figure out a religion based on the biblical wording that men can be comfortable with. The gospel is a scandal and a stumblingblock to men. Men cannot accept what grace really is. It is the power to walk as Jesus did without sin. Now believe the gospel (in spite of the impossible sound of it) and join in the fellowship of God and the saints.

The gospel is a stumbling block to the Jews according to Paul but not because of the reason you appear to think. Nowhere do any of the apostles teach the gospel is the power to walk without sin in this life. If they did, it seems they would express shock at every sin and tell the recipients of these letters that they still haven't received the gospel. I find no such language in the epistles, only in your posts. It was a stumbling block to the Jews because it declared that their efforts to attain a right standing by the law were a wasted effort.

Galatians 5:11 (NASB95)
11* But I, brethren, if I still preach circumcision, why am I still persecuted? Then the stumbling block of the cross has been abolished.

If what you say is true about walking sinlessly in this life, you should be correcting Paul in Galatians 6 where he writes . . .

Galatians 6:1 (HCSB)
Brothers, if someone is caught in any wrongdoing, you who are spiritual should restore such a person with a gentle spirit, watching out for yourselves so you also won’t be tempted.

Watch out for yourselves so you also won't be tempted? Sounds like crazy talk if what you write is true.

Definitely, we should see a different walk than before we were saved. There will be change. We will sin less. We see this change in the Thessalonians for example.

1 Thessalonians 1:9–10 (HCSB)
9*for they themselves report what kind of reception we had from you: how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God 10*and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead —Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.

But then Paul exhorts them about how they ought to walk.

1 Thessalonians 4:1–7 (NASB95)
1* Finally then, brethren, we request and exhort you in the Lord Jesus, that as you received from us instruction as to how you ought to walk and please God (just as you actually do walk), that you excel still more.
2* For you know what commandments we gave you by the authority of the Lord Jesus.
3* For this is the will of God, your sanctification; that is, that you abstain from sexual immorality;
4* that each of you know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor,
5* not in lustful passion, like the Gentiles who do not know God;
6* and that no man transgress and defraud his brother in the matter because the Lord is the avenger in all these things, just as we also told you before and solemnly warned you.
7* For God has not called us for the purpose of impurity, but in sanctification.

All of that exhortation seems a waste if the idea is that if they aren't walking a sinless life that they haven't received the gospel. Paul's clear that they have received the gospel. If they have received it, why worry about encouraging them to walk in a way that they should supposedly walk in naturally if that is what receiving the gospel does?

Neanias
Oct 28th 2013, 03:44 AM
Maybe you are someone that would answer my question I posted above. Do you believe either or both of these statements?:

We believe that in the Bible is contained the word of God, that the Book of Mormon is an added witness for Christ, and that these contain the "fullness of the gospel."

We believe that through the atonement of Christ all men may be saved by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel; viz. : Faith in God and in the Lord Jesus Christ; Repentance and Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; Laying on of Hands for: (a) Ordination; (b) Blessing of Children; (c) Confirmation and the Gift of the Holy Ghost; (d) Healing of the Sick.

Since you must have an answer, no and no, I am neither Mormon or Catholic or whatever that second statement is from. Why is it that you assume that someone who speaks of a deeper experience in Christ than what you have seen so far is automatically labelled and accused of being part of a sect? Are you willing to even consider that the Biblical testimony is more than what you have experienced and includes walking as he walked in his life and power? Is your bias towards what you have been taught so strong that anything else is rejected without reason and answer to the dilemma you create?

Now that I have answered your questions, it would only be fair that you answer those asked you, some even asked before you asked yours, but that you have avoided.


So is Jesus wrong when he says 'everyone who is fully trained will be like their teacher'? Was Christ not fully man? Was the provision of God for Christ not enough for Him to be wholly pleasing to the Father? Do we not have access through Christ to the same provision?

Neanias
Oct 28th 2013, 03:45 AM
Oregongrown,

Do you believe either or both of these statements?:

1 Peter 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; 2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. 6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

Noeb
Oct 28th 2013, 04:13 AM
It seems you are still trying to use your own words to describe a plan of salvation. Until you use biblical references to support what you are saying, with explanations of how these references support what you are saying, nothing you say should be taken by anyone reading this as having any merit as pertaining to Gods plan of salvation.he has been told this 20 times and doesn't listen

Noeb
Oct 28th 2013, 04:18 AM
I preach people being perfected in Christ, coming to a maturity where we walk as he walked. So is Jesus wrong when he says 'everyone who is fully trained will be like their teacher'?Either speak of being mature and like their teacher or speak of perfection. Don't combine them.

Noeb
Oct 28th 2013, 04:32 AM
To say that we can be said to be seated where Jesus is when we walk in the resurrection life is not the gospel. It is a perversion of the gospel. The gospel says we have been seated, past tense. I am seated there now!It's so clear .

Neanias
Oct 28th 2013, 04:50 AM
Either speak of being mature and like their teacher or speak of perfection. Don't combine them.

He who is fully trained (mature) is just like his teacher (perfect). That is unless you believe being fully trained is not being mature, or Jesus is not perfect, pick your poison...

mailmandan
Oct 28th 2013, 12:45 PM
The means of our salvation IS what causes us to overcome sin.

The means of our salvation (Christ's finished work of redemption) is still the means of our salvation, regardless of how much sin we overcome in our lives. We don't live sinless, without fault or defect, flawless lives.


God doesn't have a fantasy world...we do that.

Salvation through living a sinless, without fault or defect, flawless life is a fantasy world.


So what God has done is now being shown in this reality. We experience the salvation provision by the means we have been given. Christianity is a means to fulfilling the will of God. Christianity is not a make-believe denial of the present reality. It OVERCOMES the present reality. Why can't you see this? A miracle is not a miracle unless it is manifested in this reality. So it is with God's grace provision. Through Christ (our means) we overcome sin just as He did.

Christ has overcome the world. Christ never sinned. We can overcome sin through Christ but we don't overcome sin to the point that we are sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, continuously, exactly as Christ.


Rev_3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

1 John 5:4 - For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world--OUR FAITH.


Try to understand the purpose of God...forget what you seem to be benefiting from for just one moment.

The purpose of God is not salvation through sinless perfection.


Walking as Jesus walked IS our salvation and freedom from bondage to sin. You are making up an arbitrary salvation that does not address what we are being saved from.

From beginning "have been saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8) to end "the end of your faith" (1 Peter 1:9) salvation is through FAITH IN CHRIST. Salvation through faith is not arbitrary. We have been saved in the past from the PENALTY of sin (Justification); we are being saved presently from the POWER of sin (ongoing Sanctification); we will be saved in the future from the PRESENCE of sin (Glorification).


We are saved by entering into Christ as Noah entered the ark. Christ is our abiding place. In Him there is perfect peace and joy and the power of the life to come. His salvation is complete...without stain of sin...pure and spotless.

Christ's sacrifice was sufficient and complete. We enter into Christ, the Ark of safety, through faith.


The proof that we are in Christ is that we don't sin.

1 John 3:9 - No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In Galatians 5:12, we read - envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. To stumble and sin intermittently is different than making these behaviors a lifestyle. The idea of practice is to perform repeatedly or habitually and thus describes repetition or continuous action. Paul uses the present tense which describes the practice as habitual, as one's lifestyle or bent of life. Those who continue to practice such sins demonstrate that they have not been born of God. This does not mean that those who are born of God never sin at all. There is certainly a difference between "practice" sin (no repentance just bring it on) and commit an act of sin but pursue repentance.


Anybody can make up a religion that has sin in it. But only in Christ are we truly saved from sin. What is your testimony on this?

Who said that Christianity is about practicing sin? IN Christ are we truly saved from sin. The blood of Christ washes away our sins. This does not mean that we live sinless, without fault or defect, flawless lives though.


Are you preaching a powerless gospel?

Romans 1:16 - For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes.. That is not a powerless gospel. We need to be careful that we don't preach a "different" gospel by distorting the gospel of Christ (Galatians 1:6-9).


Consider this please! Is the God you preach unable to save you from sin? Is God so slack that He has given up trying to redeem us from our wickedness that He has to mollycoddle us into just believing that one day He will be able to save us? I will tell you that it is the adversary who teaches that. The race of faith is in this life not the next. It is now that we are called on to have faith unto victory...NOW!

The God I preach unable to save me from sin? I certainly don't teach that. Our victory in the race of faith from beginning to end is found in Jesus Christ. He doesn't simply walk us to the starting line and from there we are on our own to the finish line.


Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Walking in the resurrected life of Christ IS our salvation provision that is called "grace". We enter this by faith.

Yes, but it doesn't mean that we will live sinless, without fault or defect, flawless perfect lives as Christians and reaching that state in this life is not the plan of salvation.

mailmandan
Oct 28th 2013, 01:05 PM
What mailmandan is posting in this thread is classic Christian theology. He's making a biblical distinction between justification and sanctification and glorification. These are three distinct things with three distinct meanings. Dan is not blending them together and confounding them. He is not confusing glorification with justification. What he is also doing is not isolating them so much as to say a person can have one and not have the others. If one is justified, the other two things will happen. Sanctification happens. Glorification happens.

Amen! Well said. :) We have been saved from the PENALTY of sin (Justification); we are being saved from the POWER of sin (ongoing Sanctification); we will be saved from the PRESENCE of sin (Glorification).

2 Corinthians 1:10 - who delivered us from so great a death, and does deliver us; in whom we trust that He will still deliver us.

Romans 8:30 - and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

episkopos
Oct 28th 2013, 01:32 PM
The means of our salvation (Christ's finished work of redemption) is still the means of our salvation, regardless of how much sin we overcome in our lives. We don't live sinless, without fault or defect, flawless lives.

Christ's finished work is for the whole world...but we enter into that provision by entering into Christ and not just claiming we are included in the whole world. Claiming Christ and what He did for all men does not make you get on a favourites list. God has no favourites.

We cannot live sinlessly without Christ. That is the whole point of entering into Him. But when we walk as He walked...we do not sin. God has not built up an immunity against sin...He never changes.


Salvation through living a sinless, without fault or defect, flawless life is a fantasy world.

A salvation that only excuses sinfulness has nothing to do with God or anything written in the bible.


Christ has overcome the world. Christ never sinned. We can overcome sin through Christ but we don't overcome sin to the point that we are sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, continuously, exactly as Christ.


Only when we abide (remain) in Him. Jesus said we should be exactly as He is. He even said we are to be perfect as His Father is. Why don't you abandon your version of Christianity and submit to the version submitted by He whom you claim to follow?



1 John 5:4 - For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world--OUR FAITH.


We enter into the victory of Christ by faith. We have access to God and His power through Him.



The purpose of God is not salvation through sinless perfection.

It is to be saved FROM being sinful so that we can walk in holiness and newness of life to serve our Creator as we were designed to. We were created for fellowship with a sinless God. We do not accomplish that by continuing to sin.


From beginning "have been saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8) to end "the end of your faith" (1 Peter 1:9) salvation is through FAITH IN CHRIST. Salvation through faith is not arbitrary.

You are making this arbitrary because you espouse a faith that produces no power over sin. So then anyone can claim to be saved through their own belief that their belief saves them. But this is the height of folly.




We have been saved in the past from the PENALTY of sin (Justification); we are being saved presently from the POWER of sin (ongoing Sanctification); we will be saved in the future from the PRESENCE of sin (Glorification).


Agreed! We are to walk in the power of the Spirit that frees us from the law of sinfulness.




Christ's sacrifice was sufficient and complete. We enter into Christ, the Ark of safety, through faith.

Amen! We are kept from sin by the presence of His Spirit.



1 John 3:9 - No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In Galatians 5:12, we read - envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. To stumble and sin intermittently is different than making these behaviors a lifestyle. The idea of practice is to perform repeatedly or habitually and thus describes repetition or continuous action.

Why make provision for the flesh at all? How many rapes does it take to be a rapist? We are talking here of the difference between walking in the strength of the flesh or else walking in the power of the Spirit. Improving our conduct to a better degree is only good for home improvement. It (flesh improvement) does nothing but make us feel superior to others who do not make such efforts. It makes us into Pharisees who compare their conduct with others. But it is sin to do this. We are not to judge others.


Paul uses the present tense which describes the practice as habitual, as one's lifestyle or bent of life. Those who continue to practice such sins demonstrate that they have not been born of God.

Tea-totalling does not mean that one is walking in a resurrection life. We are not seeking an improvement in the flesh...but a perfection that only the power of Christ on us can manifest.


This does not mean that those who are born of God never sin at all. There is certainly a difference between "practice" sin (no repentance just bring it on) and commit an act of sin but pursue repentance.

Drink tea instead of beer. Then the kingdom of God will be made manifest???


Who said that Christianity is about practicing sin? IN Christ are we truly saved from sin. The blood of Christ washes away our sins. This does not mean that we live sinless, without fault or defect, flawless lives though.

So then we are both in a bath AND a pig stie? We are partially completely washed? Or are we granted immunity to sin as we are led to with no consequences? Isn't that what this is all about...an immunity that says non-Christians will die for doing what we do.....but we are God's favourites now! But this is a scheme that seeks to justify the flesh. Such are WORSE than the heathen who claim to be untainted by the sins they do. Jesus said the prostitutes will enter into the kingdom before these.


Romans 1:16 - For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes.. That is not a powerless gospel. We need to be careful that we don't preach a "different" gospel by distorting the gospel of Christ (Galatians 1:6-9).


Not a power of deception...but a power that causes us to be dead to sin and alive to a sinless God.



The God I preach unable to save me from sin? I certainly don't teach that. Our victory in the race of faith from beginning to end is found in Jesus Christ. He doesn't simply walk us to the starting line and from there we are on our own to the finish line.

Exactly! So why do you profess to believe in a gospel that has no power over sin? The Spirit of life in Christ has set us free from the power that makes us sin and die.




Yes, but it doesn't mean that we will live sinless, without fault or defect, flawless perfect lives as Christians and reaching that state in this life is not the plan of salvation.

We have all stumbled at times...because we lack the faith that causes us to remain in Christ....we are lured by the interest of this world. We think we belong here at times. But this world is a place of death. There is nothing here for the one who has been begotten anew. So as we mature in understanding and wisdom we will forsake all in order to remain in Christ and live from His abiding place where there is only the presence of God. So we walk the walk of faith without sin just as Jesus did. As He is presently in heaven, so are we on this earth.

Noeb
Oct 28th 2013, 02:10 PM
He who is fully trained (mature) is just like his teacher (perfect). That is unless you believe being fully trained is not being mature, or Jesus is not perfect, pick your poison...
"thoroughly instructed" or "informed" is not absolutely perfect in the positive. After all, Jesus also aplied it to the blind leading the blind. The Greek for mature sometimes means just that, and not absolutely perfect. Don't pick poison. Pick words of life.

Eyelog
Oct 28th 2013, 02:21 PM
Episkopos, at the risk of meddling and annoying you, I thought i might experiment with some hypothetical translations of your comments, just to see what might happen in the hearts and minds of those who are not following what you have been saying:


Christ's finished work is for the whole world...but we enter into that provision by entering into Christ and not just claiming we are included in the whole world. Claiming Christ and what He did for all men does not make you get on a favourites list. God has no favourites.

Translation: It has to be personal and individual.


We cannot live sinlessly without Christ. That is the whole point of entering into Him. But when we walk as He walked...we do not sin. God has not built up an immunity against sin...He never changes.

Translation: We have to have an ongoing, moment by moment relationship with Jesus Christ Himself, in which we put on and keep on the New Self, which is Christ Himself. This is what it means to walk in the Spirit, such that we do not "gratify the desires of the sin nature." Eph 5.


A salvation that only excuses sinfulness has nothing to do with God or anything written in the bible.

Translation: As Mailmandan tends to explain in his way, salvation is not the end of our submission to God. God's plan is for us to do the works He has prepared in advance for us to do. Eph 2:10. Those works are to be done in love and obedience. But the plan is we are to do those works in love and obedience through abiding in Christ, aka walking in the Spirit, aka walking in Christ, and for Episkopos, aka walking in Zion.


Only when we abide (remain) in Him. Jesus said we should be exactly as He is. He even said we are to be perfect as His Father is. Why don't you abandon your version of Christianity and submit to the version submitted by He whom you claim to follow?

Translation: This view of the Gospel as including the program for abiding in Christ is not foreign to the Gospel you know and love, but is its fullness. But if you think it is foreign, maybe you should reexamine what you keep saying about my view, for your own good.



We enter into the victory of Christ by faith. We have access to God and His power through Him.

Translation: After all, just as we enter into salvation by faith we continue on and enter into abiding in Him by faith. We actually access the great power for obedience and life in Him via abiding in Him by faith. So, it really is imperative we do so.



It is to be saved FROM being sinful so that we can walk in holiness and newness of life to serve our Creator as we were designed to. We were created for fellowship with a sinless God. We do not accomplish that by continuing to sin.

Translation: That is, it's imperative that we abide in Him, because one of the major reasons God saved us is so we would walk in holiness and newness of life in service to the Creator, just as Adam was created to do. But this abiding is a fellowship or relationship with God. Because He is sinless, we can't expect to stay in fellowship with Him if we keep on sinning without even attempting to avail ourselves of the power to stop sinning, through abiding in Christ.



You are making this arbitrary because you espouse a faith that produces no power over sin. So then anyone can claim to be saved through their own belief that their belief saves them. But this is the height of folly.

Translation: Your failure to see this surprises me, so I can only conclude that you are reluctant to admit that the same faith which saves us is the kind of faith which leads us into appropriation of God's power over sin through walking in Christ. But it is foolish to let people think they can be saved by faith and not have a commensurate duty in God to walk in Christ so as to avoid sin by His power.


Agreed! We are to walk in the power of the Spirit that frees us from the law of sinfulness.
Amen! We are kept from sin by the presence of His Spirit.

Translation: If you see this, why can't you see my overall point.


Why make provision for the flesh at all? How many rapes does it take to be a rapist? We are talking here of the difference between walking in the strength of the flesh or else walking in the power of the Spirit. Improving our conduct to a better degree is only good for home improvement. It (flesh improvement) does nothing but make us feel superior to others who do not make such efforts. It makes us into Pharisees who compare their conduct with others. But it is sin to do this. We are not to judge others.

Translation: The only options are: "walking in the strength of the flesh or else walking in the power of the Spirit." Anything else is at best trying to jump a 6 foot crevice with two 3 foot jumps. Anything else than seeking to walk in the power of the Spirit is really not even in the ball park for overcoming sin. The only way to overcome sin is by the power of the Spirit, walking in Christ. Everything else is piecemeal, inconsistent and ultimately ineffective.


Tea-totalling does not mean that one is walking in a resurrection life. We are not seeking an improvement in the flesh...but a perfection that only the power of Christ on us can manifest.
Drink tea instead of beer. Then the kingdom of God will be made manifest???

Translation: The goal is attainable, and it is complete sinlessness from moment to moment as we walk in Christ. Using methods of spiritual prudence are not in the least comparable to availing ourselves of the same power which brought Christ and us to resurrection life. Again, we can only avail ourselves of that power, which totally dwarfs all our human efforts, through walking in Christ.


So then we are both in a bath AND a pig stie? We are partially completely washed? Or are we granted immunity to sin as we are led to with no consequences? Isn't that what this is all about...an immunity that says non-Christians will die for doing what we do.....but we are God's favourites now! But this is a scheme that seeks to justify the flesh. Such are WORSE than the heathen who claim to be untainted by the sins they do. Jesus said the prostitutes will enter into the kingdom before these.


Translation: You tend to talk like I am being heretical, but the things you seem to imply are clearly heretical.


Not a power of deception...but a power that causes us to be dead to sin and alive to a sinless God.

Translation: Why do you not see what is at stake here, and how your denial of this method to be in Christ makes living up to what we have attained in Christ impossible?


Exactly! So why do you profess to believe in a gospel that has no power over sin? The Spirit of life in Christ has set us free from the power that makes us sin and die.

Translation: Why can't you see what you are saying? You can't possibly believe what your words imply about the life in Christ.


We have all stumbled at times...because we lack the faith that causes us to remain in Christ....we are lured by the interest of this world. We think we belong here at times. But this world is a place of death. There is nothing here for the one who has been begotten anew. So as we mature in understanding and wisdom we will forsake all in order to remain in Christ and live from His abiding place where there is only the presence of God. So we walk the walk of faith without sin just as Jesus did. As He is presently in heaven, so are we on this earth.

Translation: The whole challenge is to abide in Christ and keep abiding in Christ. Those who are not seeking that method as a means to live up to the expectations of Christ upon us are not even in the game. But it is not that hard to turn and follow the correct way, resulting in a walk of faith without sin, just as Jesus did, because we are walking in Him.

episkopos
Oct 28th 2013, 02:32 PM
Episkopos, at the risk of meddling and annoying you, I thought i might experiment with some hypothetical translations of your comments, just to see what might happen in the hearts and minds of those who are not following what you have been saying:



Translation: It has to be personal and individual.



Translation: We have to have an ongoing, moment by moment relationship with Jesus Christ Himself, in which we put on and keep on the New Self, which is Christ Himself. This is what it means to walk in the Spirit, such that we do not "gratify the desires of the sin nature." Eph 5.



Translation: As Mailmandan tends to explain in his way, salvation is not the end of our submission to God. God's plan is for us to do the works He has prepared in advance for us to do. Eph 2:10. Those works are to be done in love and obedience. But the plan is we are to do those works in love and obedience through abiding in Christ, aka walking in the Spirit, aka walking in Christ, and for Episkopos, aka walking in Zion.



Translation: This view of the Gospel as including the program for abiding in Christ is not foreign to the Gospel you know and love, but is its fullness. But if you think it is foreign, maybe you should reexamine what you keep saying about my view, for your own good.



Translation: After all, just as we enter into salvation by faith we continue on and enter into abiding in Him by faith. We actually access the great power for obedience and life in Him via abiding in Him by faith. So, it really is imperative we do so.



Translation: That is, it's imperative that we abide in Him, because one of the major reasons God saved us is so we would walk in holiness and newness of life in service to the Creator, just as Adam was created to do. But this abiding is a fellowship or relationship with God. Because He is sinless, we can't expect to stay in fellowship with Him if we keep on sinning without even attempting to avail ourselves of the power to stop sinning, through abiding in Christ.



Translation: Your failure to see this surprises me, so I can only conclude that you are reluctant to admit that the same faith which saves us is the kind of faith which leads us into appropriation of God's power over sin through walking in Christ. But it is foolish to let people think they can be saved by faith and not have a commensurate duty in God to walk in Christ so as to avoid sin by His power.



Translation: If you see this, why can't you see my overall point.



Translation: The only options are: "walking in the strength of the flesh or else walking in the power of the Spirit." Anything else is at best trying to jump a 6 foot crevice with two 3 foot jumps. Anything else than seeking to walk in the power of the Spirit is really not even in the ball park for overcoming sin. The only way to overcome sin is by the power of the Spirit, walking in Christ. Everything else is piecemeal, inconsistent and ultimately ineffective.



Translation: The goal is attainable, and it is complete sinlessness from moment to moment as we walk in Christ. Using methods of spiritual prudence are not in the least comparable to availing ourselves of the same power which brought Christ and us to resurrection life. Again, we can only avail ourselves of that power, which totally dwarfs all our human efforts, through walking in Christ.



Translation: You tend to talk like I am being heretical, but the things you seem to imply are clearly heretical.



Translation: Why do you not see what is at stake here, and how your denial of this method to be in Christ makes living up to what we have attained in Christ impossible?



Translation: Why can't you see what you are saying? You can't possibly believe what your words imply about the life in Christ.



Translation: The whole challenge is to abide in Christ and keep abiding in Christ. Those who are not seeking that method as a means to live up to the expectations of Christ upon us are not even in the game. But it is not that hard to turn and follow the correct way, resulting in a walk of faith without sin, just as Jesus did, because we are walking in Him.



Kudos Eyelog...as hilarious as it is good! :)

Dot
Oct 28th 2013, 02:33 PM
Episkopos, at the risk of meddling and annoying you, I thought i might experiment with some hypothetical translations of your comments, just to see what might happen in the hearts and minds of those who are not following what you have been saying:



Translation: It has to be personal and individual.



Translation: We have to have an ongoing, moment by moment relationship with Jesus Christ Himself, in which we put on and keep on the New Self, which is Christ Himself. This is what it means to walk in the Spirit, such that we do not "gratify the desires of the sin nature." Eph 5.



Translation: As Mailmandan tends to explain in his way, salvation is not the end of our submission to God. God's plan is for us to do the works He has prepared in advance for us to do. Eph 2:10. Those works are to be done in love and obedience. But the plan is we are to do those works in love and obedience through abiding in Christ, aka walking in the Spirit, aka walking in Christ, and for Episkopos, aka walking in Zion.



Translation: This view of the Gospel as including the program for abiding in Christ is not foreign to the Gospel you know and love, but is its fullness. But if you think it is foreign, maybe you should reexamine what you keep saying about my view, for your own good.



Translation: After all, just as we enter into salvation by faith we continue on and enter into abiding in Him by faith. We actually access the great power for obedience and life in Him via abiding in Him by faith. So, it really is imperative we do so.



Translation: That is, it's imperative that we abide in Him, because one of the major reasons God saved us is so we would walk in holiness and newness of life in service to the Creator, just as Adam was created to do. But this abiding is a fellowship or relationship with God. Because He is sinless, we can't expect to stay in fellowship with Him if we keep on sinning without even attempting to avail ourselves of the power to stop sinning, through abiding in Christ.



Translation: Your failure to see this surprises me, so I can only conclude that you are reluctant to admit that the same faith which saves us is the kind of faith which leads us into appropriation of God's power over sin through walking in Christ. But it is foolish to let people think they can be saved by faith and not have a commensurate duty in God to walk in Christ so as to avoid sin by His power.



Translation: If you see this, why can't you see my overall point.



Translation: The only options are: "walking in the strength of the flesh or else walking in the power of the Spirit." Anything else is at best trying to jump a 6 foot crevice with two 3 foot jumps. Anything else than seeking to walk in the power of the Spirit is really not even in the ball park for overcoming sin. The only way to overcome sin is by the power of the Spirit, walking in Christ. Everything else is piecemeal, inconsistent and ultimately ineffective.



Translation: The goal is attainable, and it is complete sinlessness from moment to moment as we walk in Christ. Using methods of spiritual prudence are not in the least comparable to availing ourselves of the same power which brought Christ and us to resurrection life. Again, we can only avail ourselves of that power, which totally dwarfs all our human efforts, through walking in Christ.



Translation: You tend to talk like I am being heretical, but the things you seem to imply are clearly heretical.



Translation: Why do you not see what is at stake here, and how your denial of this method to be in Christ makes living up to what we have attained in Christ impossible?



Translation: Why can't you see what you are saying? You can't possibly believe what your words imply about the life in Christ.



Translation: The whole challenge is to abide in Christ and keep abiding in Christ. Those who are not seeking that method as a means to live up to the expectations of Christ upon us are not even in the game. But it is not that hard to turn and follow the correct way, resulting in a walk of faith without sin, just as Jesus did, because we are walking in Him.

Eyelog, this is great, thank-you!!!

TBM 11
Oct 28th 2013, 02:41 PM
To say that we can be said to be seated where Jesus is when we walk in the resurrection life is not the gospel. It is a perversion of the gospel. The gospel says we have been seated, past tense. I am seated there now!

Ephesians 2:4–10 (HCSB)
4*But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love that He had for us, 5*made us alive with the Messiah even though we were dead in trespasses. You are saved by grace! 6*Together with Christ Jesus He also raised us up and seated us in the heavens, 7*so that in the coming ages He might display the immeasurable riches of His grace through His kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8*For you are saved by grace through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God’s gift— 9*not from works, so that no one can boast. 10*For we are His creation, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared ahead of time so that we should walk in them.



The gospel is a stumbling block to the Jews according to Paul but not because of the reason you appear to think. Nowhere do any of the apostles teach the gospel is the power to walk without sin in this life. If they did, it seems they would express shock at every sin and tell the recipients of these letters that they still haven't received the gospel. I find no such language in the epistles, only in your posts. It was a stumbling block to the Jews because it declared that their efforts to attain a right standing by the law were a wasted effort.

Galatians 5:11 (NASB95)
11* But I, brethren, if I still preach circumcision, why am I still persecuted? Then the stumbling block of the cross has been abolished.

If what you say is true about walking sinlessly in this life, you should be correcting Paul in Galatians 6 where he writes . . .

Galatians 6:1 (HCSB)
Brothers, if someone is caught in any wrongdoing, you who are spiritual should restore such a person with a gentle spirit, watching out for yourselves so you also won’t be tempted.

Watch out for yourselves so you also won't be tempted? Sounds like crazy talk if what you write is true.

Definitely, we should see a different walk than before we were saved. There will be change. We will sin less. We see this change in the Thessalonians for example.

1 Thessalonians 1:9–10 (HCSB)
9*for they themselves report what kind of reception we had from you: how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God 10*and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead —Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.

But then Paul exhorts them about how they ought to walk.

1 Thessalonians 4:1–7 (NASB95)
1* Finally then, brethren, we request and exhort you in the Lord Jesus, that as you received from us instruction as to how you ought to walk and please God (just as you actually do walk), that you excel still more.
2* For you know what commandments we gave you by the authority of the Lord Jesus.
3* For this is the will of God, your sanctification; that is, that you abstain from sexual immorality;
4* that each of you know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor,
5* not in lustful passion, like the Gentiles who do not know God;
6* and that no man transgress and defraud his brother in the matter because the Lord is the avenger in all these things, just as we also told you before and solemnly warned you.
7* For God has not called us for the purpose of impurity, but in sanctification.

All of that exhortation seems a waste if the idea is that if they aren't walking a sinless life that they haven't received the gospel. Paul's clear that they have received the gospel. If they have received it, why worry about encouraging them to walk in a way that they should supposedly walk in naturally if that is what receiving the gospel does?

You guys just sailed right past this post. Why?

Eyelog
Oct 28th 2013, 02:59 PM
You guys just sailed right past this post. Why?

TrustGzus said:All of that exhortation seems a waste if the idea is that if they aren't walking a sinless life that they haven't received the gospel. Paul's clear that they have received the gospel. If they have received it, why worry about encouraging them to walk in a way that they should supposedly walk in naturally if that is what receiving the gospel does?

1. Receiving the Gospel and being born again only frees us to walk in the Spirit. we have to do it. He won't do it for us. For, He's looking for our response to what we have attained in Him, ....

2. Please don't think I think we can live a sinless life. That's what all that 'perfection' talk was about below. ... BORING.

No, the idea is that while walking in the Spirit, it is possible to walk sinlessly from moment to moment. Obviously, the more you walk in the Spirit, the more sinless your life will be overall.

3. Obedience becomes the focus at first, bc so many talk and act like they are helpless in this area, when the method to do far better is right there before us.

4. However, the goal is not just to requite some obsession with obedience. Rather, it is to walk in love, joy, peace, patience, ... the fruit of the spirit, in tight fellowship with God. For that is what He intended and what we all yearn for.

TBM 11
Oct 28th 2013, 03:13 PM
1. Receiving the Gospel and being born again only frees us to walk in the Spirit. we have to do it. He won't do it for us. For, He's looking for our response to what we have attained in Him, ....

2. Please don't think I think we can live a sinless life. That's what all that 'perfection' talk was about below. ... BORING.

No, the idea is that while walking in the Spirit, it is possible to walk sinlessly from moment to moment. Obviously, the more you walk in the Spirit, the more sinless your life will be overall.

3. Obedience becomes the focus at first, bc so many talk and act like they are helpless in this area, when the method to do far better is right there before us.

4. However, the goal is not just to requite some obsession with obedience. Rather, it is to walk in love, joy, peace, patience, ... the fruit of the spirit, in tight fellowship with God. For that is what He intended and what we all yearn for.

I have no argument with that. However, the topic is "Imputed Righteousness." Basically the same as the other two threads being discussed in Bible Chat that relate to eternal security. The post from "TrustGzus" addressed that topic and was ignored. Your statement, though true, does not address the rest of the topic, only part.

episkopos
Oct 28th 2013, 03:14 PM
1. Receiving the Gospel and being born again only frees us to walk in the Spirit. we have to do it. He won't do it for us. For, He's looking for our response to what we have attained in Him, ....

2. Please don't think I think we can live a sinless life. That's what all that 'perfection' talk was about below. ... BORING.

No, the idea is that while walking in the Spirit, it is possible to walk sinlessly from moment to moment. Obviously, the more you walk in the Spirit, the more sinless your life will be overall.

3. Obedience becomes the focus at first, bc so many talk and act like they are helpless in this area, when the method to do far better is right there before us.

4. However, the goal is not just to requite some obsession with obedience. Rather, it is to walk in love, joy, peace, patience, ... the fruit of the spirit, in tight fellowship with God. For that is what He intended and what we all yearn for.

Amen! I would just add that there is a keeping power in Christ that once the pull of this world is overcome then there is a pull that keeps us in God's presence. Like a holiness gravity that keeps us in His presence. So then the Christian walk is an extreme struggle into an extreme rest. My burden is light.

Neanias
Oct 28th 2013, 03:30 PM
"thoroughly instructed" or "informed" is not absolutely perfect in the positive. After all, Jesus also aplied it to the blind leading the blind. The Greek for mature sometimes means just that, and not absolutely perfect. Don't pick poison. Pick words of life.

So then Jesus is not perfect? He is just 'thoroughly instructed' or 'informed', since you say we can't be perfect, and the Bible says we will be just like Him once mature.

Indeed, you have just picked your poison, in revealing which lie you believe. ;)

See, he doesn't say 'He who is fully trained is thoroughly instructed and informed' as you would like him to, to back up a powerless gospel according to words, but he says 'He who is fully trained is just like his teacher', in the case of Jesus being the teacher, perfect. He doesn't say kind of like his teacher, or a little bit like his teacher, but just like his teacher.

The Word speaks of an abundant and powerful salvation in Jesus Christ which empowers us to be as he is, it speaks of walking in the power of his righteousness. It would be better for us not to use the Bible at all if we are using it to try and save our carnal lives, and save ourselves from dying on the cross to receive the new life and power in Christ, which is the very purpose of the gospel.

Oregongrown
Oct 28th 2013, 03:55 PM
What mailmandan is posting in this thread is classic Christian theology. He's making a biblical distinction between justification and sanctification and glorification. These are three distinct things with three distinct meanings. Dan is not blending them together and confounding them. He is not confusing glorification with justification. What he is also doing is not isolating them so much as to say a person can have one and not have the others. If one is justified, the other two things will happen. Sanctification happens. Glorification happens.


It's so miraculous to me, the difference between what is said with the guidance of the Holy Spirit (like your post), and what is not. Maybe that is what discernment really is. I can read something, and even though I am not a bible scholar, something isn't right, then I can read something someones written, and know it is Truth. And if I just don't know for sure, there is His Word:) Thank you God for Your faithful witnesses, amen

Eyelog
Oct 28th 2013, 04:03 PM
Amen! I would just add that there is a keeping power in Christ that once the pull of this world is overcome then there is a pull that keeps us in God's presence. Like a holiness gravity that keeps us in His presence. So then the Christian walk is an extreme struggle into an extreme rest. My burden is light.

Yes, your refrigerator magnet analogy was very true to it. : )

Oregongrown
Oct 28th 2013, 04:06 PM
Are we in the 'controversial' forum now? ... This ain't Kansas anymore ....


Ok, this is me not being "snarky" today, I am ashamed that I was yesterday. This was part of a question I wanted someone to answer because I wanted to know where their understanding of the bible was coming from. I am new to studying the bible in more depth. I want to know as much of God's Truth, His Word as I can, so that I will recognize false doctrine. I know I get nasty sometimes, and I really don't like myself anymore than anyone else does when I do it "at them". So I apologize to you eyelog. I hope to apologize to anyone else I may have been rude to as well.

I think you are right, not the way you said it, but nevertheless, I think my type of question here, was more for another thread, not sure. Probably not good to just come out and ask where their training comes from. I will check into it so I can "stay in Kansas" from now on.

Thanks, denise, a sister in Christ

Oregongrown
Oct 28th 2013, 04:14 PM
Quote Originally Posted by Oregongrown View Post
No, you are the one that is incorrect, and I'm gonna say so at the risk of being kicked off here. You preach people being perfect after meeting Christ. That is not true because we are still stuck in these bags of flesh. To be conformed is a process, God begins the good work in us, and the conforming to the image of Christ the moment we are saved. I think blatant unbelief in what you are preaching is just, plain wisdom from God.

I preach people being perfected in Christ, coming to a maturity where we walk as he walked. So is Jesus wrong when he says 'everyone who is fully trained will be like their teacher'? Was Christ not fully man? Was the provision of God for Christ not enough for Him to be wholly pleasing to the Father? Do we not have access through Christ to the same provision?

The Bible speaks of a provision that actually frees us from the power of sin, and says he came to take away sins and destroy the works of the devil.

I want to apologize for my unchristian remarks yesterday. I complained about you not using scripture, and realized I wasn't using it either, just shooting from my own mind. I don't understand your teachings so I was trying to find out where you learned your info. That's not an excuse for my behaviour, just what I was confused about.

So, I just want to say for now, if you will forgive me, that is what I would like most, and second, just to agree to disagree for now. I need to study more, the Word, and I really had no business butting in on things that are well, over my head.

denise

Oregongrown
Oct 28th 2013, 04:18 PM
No, you are the one that is incorrect, and I'm gonna say so at the risk of being kicked off here. You preach people being perfect after meeting Christ. That is not true because we are still stuck in these bags of flesh. To be conformed is a process, God begins the good work in us, and the conforming to the image of Christ the moment we are saved. I think blatant unbelief in what you are preaching is just, plain wisdom from God.

denise

Here's another of my unchristian posts, I apologize Neanias, it is true I don't understand much of your posts, and may truly disagree, but if you would accept my apology for being rude, I would also like to ask if we can just agree to disagree right now. I am not well, studied in the bible. Yes, I am led by the Holy Spirit, if I listen, and do know some things are not Truths (not talking necessarily about your stuff) but many things I read on these boards I have no business getting into, they are over my head.

Anyway, I wish for you the best, and do hope you will forgive me, denise

TBM 11
Oct 28th 2013, 04:33 PM
These threads are just going around in circles because the main topic is not being addressed. Not that the things being said about being led by the Spirit are not important or untrue, just a different topic. That makes it hard to stay on track. So it is not "over your head" Denise, it was just focused on something different that what you were focused on. The topic is "Imputed Righteousness, and I believe the OP brought it up referring to eternal security of the regenerated Christian. If I am incorrect in that assumption I apologize to the OP. So if anyone disputes "eternal security" and whether that is found in the scripture, we can get this discussion on track if you speak up now.

mailmandan
Oct 28th 2013, 04:40 PM
Christ's finished work is for the whole world...but we enter into that provision by entering into Christ and not just claiming we are included in the whole world. Claiming Christ and what He did for all men does not make you get on a favourites list. God has no favourites. We cannot live sinlessly without Christ. That is the whole point of entering into Him. But when we walk as He walked...we do not sin. God has not built up an immunity against sin...He never changes.

You yourself have admitted and I quote, "I have sinned many many times since becoming a disciple of Christ" in the "Why Aren't We Perfect" thread. You went on to mention that you learned along the way that it is futile to walk in our own strength. Amen! I agree that it is futile to walk in our own strength, but do you now claim to walk sinless continuously, without fault or defect, flawlessly, since you learned that? For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish (Galatians 5:17). Have you reached entire sanctification? Do you now walk exactly as Christ walked (sinless, flawless) continuously? I never said that God has favourites. Romans 2:11 - For there is no partiality with God.


A salvation that only excuses sinfulness has nothing to do with God or anything written in the bible.

Who said anything about excusing sinfulness? Those who are born of God do not practice sin (1 John 3:9), but this does not mean that we never sin at all. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us; If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us (1 John 1:8,10). My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous (1 John 2:1). John never said, if you ever sin at all, you have nothing to do with God, you are not abiding in Christ, you cannot be saved.


Only when we abide (remain) in Him. Jesus said we should be exactly as He is. He even said we are to be perfect as His Father is.

To abide means to continue or remain. You seem to define abide as "be exactly as Jesus is" without fault or defect, sinless, flawless. Anything less than this is not abiding. In John 15:6, Jesus said - If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. So according to you, anyone who is not sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, (Just like Jesus) is not abiding in Christ and will be cast out and thrown into the fire? We often confuse the word "perfect" with sinless, flawless perfection. The word perfect "teleios" often means complete or mature.


Why don't you abandon your version of Christianity and submit to the version submitted by He whom you claim to follow?

This sounds very judgmental. My version of Christianity? I only claim to follow Christ? Since I don't hold to your sinless perfection doctrine, I'm not a Christian?


It is to be saved FROM being sinful so that we can walk in holiness and newness of life to serve our Creator as we were designed to. We were created for fellowship with a sinless God. We do not accomplish that by continuing to sin.

Yes, this is what we are saved FOR, but not by. Those who are born of God do not continue to practice sin (1 John 3:9). But are we sinless and flawless? (1 John 1:8-2:2).


You are making this arbitrary because you espouse a faith that produces no power over sin.

I never said that faith produces no power over sin. It's our faith, our abiding, HIS power.


So then anyone can claim to be saved through their own belief that their belief saves them. But this is the height of folly.

Belief is only as good as the object that we place it in. Christ's finished work of redemption is the object of our faith and the allsufficient means of our salvation. This is certainly not folly.

1 Corinthians 1:21 - For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe.


Why make provision for the flesh at all? How many rapes does it take to be a rapist? We are talking here of the difference between walking in the strength of the flesh or else walking in the power of the Spirit. Improving our conduct to a better degree is only good for home improvement. It (flesh improvement) does nothing but make us feel superior to others who do not make such efforts. It makes us into Pharisees who compare their conduct with others. But it is sin to do this. We are not to judge others.

So you disagree with John? - "No one who is born of God practices sin.." You believe that John really meant "never sins at all?" The goal to strive for is to make no provision for the flesh at all, but who does this flawlessly? The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. Have you arrived? Are you sinless, flawless?


Drink tea instead of beer. Then the kingdom of God will be made manifest???

What kind of statement is that? What if I drink both? :lol:


So then we are both in a bath AND a pig stie? We are partially completely washed? Or are we granted immunity to sin as we are led to with no consequences? Isn't that what this is all about...an immunity that says non-Christians will die for doing what we do.....but we are God's favourites now! But this is a scheme that seeks to justify the flesh. Such are WORSE than the heathen who claim to be untainted by the sins they do. Jesus said the prostitutes will enter into the kingdom before these.

1 Corinthians 6:11 - And such were some of you. But you were washed (completely), you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. Nobody said anything about being granted immunity to sin. You see only two extremes. 1. We are sinless, without fault or defect, flawless. 2. We are sinning all we want (living like the devil). Do you disagree that Paul uses the present tense which describes the practice as habitual, as one's lifestyle or bent of life and those who continue to practice such sins demonstrate that they have not been born of God? Do you disagree that there is a difference between "practice" sin (no repentance just bring it on) and commit an act of sin but pursue repentance?


Not a power of deception...but a power that causes us to be dead to sin and alive to a sinless God.

How is the gospel deceptive? Does dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus mean that we will never sin again and continue to live sinless, flawless lives or something else?


Exactly! So why do you profess to believe in a gospel that has no power over sin? The Spirit of life in Christ has set us free from the power that makes us sin and die.

When did I say the gospel has no power over sin? I simply said that we don't live sinless, without fault or defect, flawless lives. We may be set free from the power that makes us sin and die, but we still have our old sinful flesh that lusts against the Spirit. Show me a Christian who NEVER struggles with sin at all and lives a sinless, flawless life continuously and I will show you a liar.


We have all stumbled at times...because we lack the faith that causes us to remain in Christ....we are lured by the interest of this world.

So if we ever stumble at all, we don't remain in Christ? Only sinless, flawless Christians are in Christ? ALL believers are in Christ, not just Christians who live sinless, flawless lives. Our daily battle is with the world.


So as we mature in understanding and wisdom we will forsake all in order to remain in Christ and live from His abiding place where there is only the presence of God. So we walk the walk of faith without sin just as Jesus did. As He is presently in heaven, so are we on this earth.

You seem to be a one string bango, "sinless perfection" or else!

episkopos
Oct 28th 2013, 04:56 PM
You yourself have admitted and I quote, "I have sinned many many times since becoming a disciple of Christ" in the "Why Aren't We Perfect" thread. You went on to mention that you learned along the way that it is futile to walk in our own strength. Amen! I agree that it is futile to walk in our own strength, but do you now claim to walk sinless continuously, without fault or defect, flawlessly, since you learned that? For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish (Galatians 5:17). Have you reached entire sanctification? Do you now walk exactly as Christ walked (sinless, flawless) continuously? I never said that God has favourites. Romans 2:11 - For there is no partiality with God.


You are not putting what I said into balance. I have both sinned and I have walked for lengthy periods of time without sin. I have a real life I am living... am not talking hypothetically. I also experienced the Romans 7 experience before the Romans 8...so I understand it. But I have also been lured back into the world at various times due to a lack of faithful continuance. But this does not take away from the experience of walking in the salvation of Christ after I repented and surrendered my life over once again. So I am testifying to the truth that Paul speaks of...you are seeming to reject out of hand...that while we walk in the Spirit and live from there...we overcome all sin.



Who said anything about excusing sinfulness? Those who are born of God do not practice sin (1 John 3:9), but this does not mean that we never sin at all. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us; If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us (1 John 1:8,10). My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous (1 John 2:1). John never said, if you ever sin at all, you have nothing to do with God, you are not abiding in Christ, you cannot be saved.



To abide means to continue or remain. You seem to define abide as "be exactly as Jesus is" without fault or defect, sinless, flawless. Anything less than this is not abiding. In John 15:6, Jesus said - If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. So according to you, anyone who is not sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, (Just like Jesus) is not abiding in Christ and will be cast out and thrown into the fire? We often confuse the word "perfect" with sinless, flawless perfection. The word perfect "teleios" often means complete or mature.



This sounds very judgmental. My version of Christianity? I only claim to follow Christ? Since I don't hold to your sinless perfection doctrine, I'm not a Christian?



Yes, this is what we are saved FOR, but not by. Those who are born of God do not continue to practice sin (1 John 3:9). But are we sinless and flawless? (1 John 1:8-2:2).



I never said that faith produces no power over sin. It's our faith, our abiding, HIS power.



Belief is only as good as the object that we place it in. Christ's finished work of redemption is the object of our faith and the allsufficient means of our salvation. This is certainly not folly.

1 Corinthians 1:21 - For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe.



So you disagree with John? - "No one who is born of God practices sin.." You believe that John really meant "never sins at all?" The goal to strive for is to make no provision for the flesh at all, but who does this flawlessly? The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. Have you arrived? Are you sinless, flawless?



What kind of statement is that? What if I drink both? :lol:



1 Corinthians 6:11 - And such were some of you. But you were washed (completely), you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. Nobody said anything about being granted immunity to sin. You see only two extremes. 1. We are sinless, without fault or defect, flawless. 2. We are sinning all we want (living like the devil). Do you disagree that Paul uses the present tense which describes the practice as habitual, as one's lifestyle or bent of life and those who continue to practice such sins demonstrate that they have not been born of God? Do you disagree that there is a difference between "practice" sin (no repentance just bring it on) and commit an act of sin but pursue repentance?



How is the gospel deceptive? Does dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus mean that we will never sin again and continue to live sinless, flawless lives or something else?



When did I say the gospel has no power over sin? I simply said that we don't live sinless, without fault or defect, flawless lives. We may be set free from the power that makes us sin and die, but we still have our old sinful flesh that lusts against the Spirit. Show me a Christian who NEVER struggles with sin at all and lives a sinless, flawless life continuously and I will show you a liar.



This has all been covered before...


So if we ever stumble at all, we don't remain in Christ? Only sinless, flawless Christians are in Christ? ALL believers are in Christ, not just Christians who live sinless, flawless lives. Our daily battle is with the world.


You seem to be a one string bango, "sinless perfection" or else!


When we stumble we do so away from His presence. Our first error is to be led astray...like sheep. THEN we stumble and fall.

But the battle is the Lord's not ours. We can never win the battle with the world in our own strength. Your testimony is a vicious circle of battling and losing. You are still stuck in Romans 7. But why have you not experienced Romans 8 and treat that message as if it comes from Mars? Why is it so hard for you to believe in the power that saves us from being sinful. Put on the new man.

Our judgment will be what we have done with what we have been given. Did we overcome by faith? Or did we just use our belief as an excuse that seeks to get away with a continuous sinfulness? Why not believe the gospel and enter into Christ in reality and see for yourself the power of the resurrected Lord? This is the testimony of the bible..and I also have experienced this walk.

Oregongrown
Oct 28th 2013, 04:57 PM
Oregongrown,

Do you believe either or both of these statements?:

1 Peter 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; 2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. 6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.


Yes, I am willing to answer this for you.

My bible I use is the NKJV, and sometimes the ESV so that may not be acceptable to you, but I won't argue or debate, for reasons I stated in my other posts to you Neanias.

NKJV 1 Peter 4:1-2 (I did feel I should add the 2 verse as well, it seems to go together)
4 Therefore, since Christ suffered for us[a] in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same mind, for he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, 2 that he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh for the lusts of men, but for the will of God.

These verses tell me that we are to be Christ-like, including giving up Himself to great suffering for us, we are to be willing to suffer for others so that they may know the love of Christ. As we die to self, we die to the lusts of the flesh, and become more Christ-like wanting more to do the will of God, and less the will of the flesh. I don't know what the future holds for me, but it is my hope, even my will, to no longer sin. My focus must be(and my will) towards "not" sinning, if I am going to be Christ-like. I do not believe I will acquire perfection as long as I am in the flesh. I cannot fill the shoes of Christ.

NKJV 1 John 2:3 3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

God knows us, and so far, through the bible books I have read, I see that over and over, humans fall short of God's perfection. But His mercy and grace never fail, or fall short. This verse is a command and I see it as a strict command, so when I fall short (when, not if) I expect to be disciplined, and have been. God is a Father, a loving Father that tells me to not run out in the street. If I go ahead and do it, then I have disobeyed, I am a liar, I didn't keep his instruction. I can only confess my sin and repent. There are many instances when God has forgiven. Now I may fail to follow His commands, and He may strike me dead, but Jesus died for the sins I've committed, the sins I commit to day, and the sins I will commit tomorrow, and that's not a plan, that is just a fact, I am sorry if you are sorry that I can't be more sure of not sinning at this time of my walk with Him, good for you if you can.

That's all I'm going to say here, again, I am just not going to try to get into topics I have no business in from now on, I pray:pray:

episkopos
Oct 28th 2013, 05:01 PM
These threads are just going around in circles because the main topic is not being addressed. Not that the things being said about being led by the Spirit are not important or untrue, just a different topic. That makes it hard to stay on track. So it is not "over your head" Denise, it was just focused on something different that what you were focused on. The topic is "Imputed Righteousness, and I believe the OP brought it up referring to eternal security of the regenerated Christian. If I am incorrect in that assumption I apologize to the OP. So if anyone disputes "eternal security" and whether that is found in the scripture, we can get this discussion on track if you speak up now.

There is no such thing as an eternal security guarantee in the bible. Used car sloganeering has influenced the thinking of those who read that into the bible narrative.

The Christian walk is likened to a race where not all are able to finish...

TBM 11
Oct 28th 2013, 05:38 PM
There is no such thing as an eternal security guarantee in the bible. Used car sloganeering has influenced the thinking of those who read that into the bible narrative.

The Christian walk is likened to a race where not all are able to finish...


John 6:37–40

37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

John 10:27,28

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish , neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Romans 8:35-39

35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36 As it is written , For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. 37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. 38 For I am persuaded , that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present , nor things to come , 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

1 Peter 1:3-5

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Philippians 6:1

6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

These are just a few of the verses that support eternal security.

TBM 11
Oct 28th 2013, 05:44 PM
There is no such thing as an eternal security guarantee in the bible. Used car sloganeering has influenced the thinking of those who read that into the bible narrative.

The Christian walk is likened to a race where not all are able to finish...

One of my favorites here....

2Cor. 1:21-22

1 Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us is God, 22 who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

episkopos
Oct 28th 2013, 05:44 PM
John 6:37–40

37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

John 10:27,28

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish , neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Romans 8:35-39

35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36 As it is written , For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. 37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. 38 For I am persuaded , that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present , nor things to come , 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

1 Peter 1:3-5

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Philippians 6:1

6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

These are just a few of the verses that support eternal security.

And here are just a few that show that an eternal salvation is conditional on how we run the race...

According to God's Word, it is possible to:

let the things which you have heard slip (Heb. 2:1)
go astray (Mt. 18:12,13)
err from the faith (1 Tim. 6:10,21)
err from the faith and overthrow the faith of others (2 Tim. 2:18)
lose your savour (saltiness) (Lk. 14:34,35)
be offended by Jesus (Mt. 11:6; Mk. 14:27,29)
fall away from grace (Gal. 5:4)
believe for awhile but in time of temptation fall away (Lk. 8:13)
be offended, betray one another and hate one another (Mt. 24:10)
have your faith shipwrecked (1 Tim. 1:19)
turn back and no longer follow Jesus (Jn. 6:66)
forsake the right way and go astray (2 Pet. 2:15)
stop abiding in Christ and as a branch, be withered and thrown away (Jn. 15:6)
be offended (Jn. 16:1)
turn aside after Satan (which implies AWAY from the LORD) (1 Tim. 5:15)
depart from the faith, having your conscience seared with a hot iron (1 Tim. 4:1-2)
turn your ears away from the truth and turn unto fables (2 Tim. 4:4)
acquire an evil heart of unbelief and depart from the living God (Heb. 3:12)
fall away to the point where you can’t be renewed to repentance (Heb. 6:6)
refuse Him that speaketh from heaven (Heb. 12:25)
become lukewarm and get spit out of the body of Christ (Rev. 3:15,16)
not remain faithful and be hurt by the second death (Rev. 2:10,11)
have God take away your part from the tree of life and in the holy city (Rev. 22:19)
be led away with the error of the wicked and fall from your steadfastness (2 Pet 3:17)
be carried away by all kinds of strange doctrines (Heb. 13:9)

TBM 11
Oct 28th 2013, 05:48 PM
There is no such thing as an eternal security guarantee in the bible. Used car sloganeering has influenced the thinking of those who read that into the bible narrative.

The Christian walk is likened to a race where not all are able to finish...

Ephesians 1:13,14

13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who[a] is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.


1 Cor. 3:10-15



10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

TBM 11
Oct 28th 2013, 05:51 PM
You can believe what you want. The scripture I have given is clear for you and anyone else reading this that may be unsure of their salvation. My job is finished here. I will play your games no more.

episkopos
Oct 28th 2013, 06:04 PM
You can believe what you want. The scripture I have given is clear for you and anyone else reading this that may be unsure of their salvation. My job is finished here. I will play your games no more.

There...my work is finished here. I think I will just be smug in my assurance somewhere else... ;)

Gadgeteer
Oct 28th 2013, 06:12 PM
When God sees faith in Christ, He sees union with Christ and when He sees union with Christ, he sees the righteousness of Christ as our righteousness. So faith connects us with Christ who is our righteousness and, in that sense, faith is imputed, credited, counted as righteousness (Romans 4:6). Agreements? Disagreements? How do you interpret the righteousness of God in Him...the righteousness which is from God? (2 Corinthians 5:21; Philippians 3:9).Agreed; yet, it is deeper.

Though our own righteousness of ourselves is only as "filthy rags" (the Greek is much more disgusting), though righteousness is imputed, we actually change --- not just "righteousness imputed/WHITEWASHED-OVER our sins, but we truly change and become righteous.

2Cor5:21 says "we become the righteousness of God".
Matt5:48 we are to be perfect, even as God is perfect.

Salvation is an intimate union/communion between sentient beings --- Creator (Jesus!), and creature (you and me). The closer we are to Christ, the more His heart becomes our heart, and the more we manifest His righteousness.

mailmandan
Oct 28th 2013, 06:55 PM
You are not putting what I said into balance. I have both sinned and I have walked for lengthy periods of time without sin.

But you still have not walked without sin "continuously." I believe you once mentioned to me in a different thread that you once walked without sin for a period of three years. Why not the rest of your life continuously?


I have a real life I am living... am not talking hypothetically. I also experienced the Romans 7 experience before the Romans 8...so I understand it. But I have also been lured back into the world at various times due to a lack of faithful continuance.

Who has not stumbled at times as a Christian? So you have experienced Romans 7 and Romans 8, then were lured back to Romans 7 again because of a lack of faithful continuance? Can any Christian say they are faithful in everything they do 100% of the time? Do any of us never stumble or fall at times? Unfortunately, it happens! The flesh will continue to lust against the Spirit as long as we are in these bodies. We have our weak moments at times.


But this does not take away from the experience of walking in the salvation of Christ after I repented and surrendered my life over once again. So I am testifying to the truth that Paul speaks of...you are seeming to reject out of hand...that while we walk in the Spirit and live from there...we overcome all sin.

I just don't believe that any of us live sinless, without fault or defect, flawless lives, continuosly. I'm yet to meet a Christian who claims that they have, "continuously."


When we stumble we do so away from His presence. Our first error is to be led astray...like sheep. THEN we stumble and fall.

Proverbs 24:16 - For a righteous man may fall seven times and rise again, But the wicked shall fall by calamity.


But the battle is the Lord's not ours. We can never win the battle with the world in our own strength.

Amen! We need God's enabling power! We need grace. :)


Your testimony is a vicious circle of battling and losing. You are still stuck in Romans 7. But why have you not experienced Romans 8 and treat that message as if it comes from Mars? Why is it so hard for you to believe in the power that saves us from being sinful. Put on the new man.

Who said that I never have experienced Romans 8? But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. Does it take a "continuous" sinless perfect walk to make it to Romans 8 and remain there? In Romans 7, Paul said, "O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? I thank God--through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin." Was Paul sinless and perfect continuously?


Our judgment will be what we have done with what we have been given. Did we overcome by faith? Or did we just use our belief as an excuse that seeks to get away with a continuous sinfulness?

What will that judgment determine for believers? Do we overcome by faith in Christ or by faith in reaching a sinless perfect status in order to save ourselves? In 1 John 3:7-10, we read - Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother. What do those who practice sin, do not practice righteousness, do not love their brother, demonstrate? Are they children of God or children of the devil?


Why not believe the gospel and enter into Christ in reality and see for yourself the power of the resurrected Lord? This is the testimony of the bible..and I also have experienced this walk.

I have chosen to believe the gospel many years ago and continue to believe the gospel. The "gospel" is the "good news" of the "death, burial and resurrection of Christ" (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God for salvation to everyone that believes "trusts in Christ's finished work of redemption as the allsufficient means of their salvation" (Romans 1:16). The gospel is a message of grace to be received through faith (Ephesians 2:8; Romans 5:1-2). The gospel is not a set of rituals to perform, a code of laws to be obeyed or a check list of good works to accomplish as a prerequisite for salvation. Jesus needs no supplements! It simply sets forth Christ crucified, buried and risen as the Savior of all who believe (trust) exclusively in Him for salvation.

Praise Jesus! :pp

Gadgeteer
Oct 28th 2013, 07:01 PM
John 6:37–40

37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”Who are those the Father gives to Jesus? They are those who first belong to God. John17:6.


"Father, those You have given Me out of the world --- they were YOURS, and You gave them to Me."

"Belong-to-God", reflects Jn8:42 --- "If God was your Father (if you belonged-to/believed/loved), then you would love Me."

To believe in and love God, is to believe in and love Jesus. See Jn14:1-10. No one is given to Jesus BEFORE belief --- "given", therefore denotes "belief". It is Lydia in Acts16:14-15 (she was a WORSHIPER of God, belonged to Him, and (through her faith) she was given to Jesus). It is Cornelius in Acts 10. Salvation is never before nor apart from belief.

Indeed, "regeneration" is "made-alive", is AFTER belief in Jn20:31.


John 10:27,28

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish , neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. "Pluck", is harpazo --- seize/remove FORCIBLY.

"No ONE can FORCE you from His hand." Nothing about willing apostasy.


Romans 8:35-39

35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36 As it is written , For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. 37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. 38 For I am persuaded , that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present , nor things to come , 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Does God love and desires salvation even for those who PERISH? Yes! 1Tim2:1-4.


1 Peter 1:3-5

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. First, we must establish whose faith it is --- is it GOD'S faith that He gives TO us? Or is "faith" something we DO to receive His grace?

Try to make "faith" God's gift/choice in Rom5:17 --- you can't. So in Peter's words we are protected through faith --- and verse 9 says it's OUR faith by which we are saved!!!

Now --- while you are reading Peter, please read 2:1:5-11, a warning not to BECOME UNSAVED. Then read 2:2:20-22, ANOTHER warning not to become unsaved. Then read 3:14 & 17, FURTHER warnings not to become unsaved!


Philippians 6:1

6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:Implied "if you CONTINUE" --- see Philip1:9-10, a prayer for us to REMAIN SAVED. Then read 2:25 (blamelessness is OUR choice), and 2:26 (Paul's success is IF we persevere).

Zero support for any "OSAS".


These are just a few of the verses that support eternal security.

No, they don't. Now -- you answer 1Jn2:26-28, 2Jn1:7-9, Col2:6-8, and 2Cor11:3. There are dozens of verses like these speaking of "falling-from-salvation". Did you see the thread on "OSAS and the entire letter of Hebrews"? See Heb12:7-9, it's fully possible to become UNBORN --- we have become partners in His discipline (past tense, became SONS) --- but if we are NOW WITHOUT then we are no longer sons but illegitimate!

"SHALL we not CONTINUE in submission to the Father ...AND LIVE?"


I have listed scriptures that support eternal security on the "Imputed Righteousness" thread. After you tell me what they mean to you I will answer your question.

Can I hold you to that?

:-)

Gadgeteer
Oct 28th 2013, 07:19 PM
"Father, those You have given Me out of the world --- they were YOURS, and You gave them to Me." John17:6

"Belong-to-God", reflects Jn8:42 --- "If God was your Father (if you belonged-to/believed/loved), then you would love Me."

To believe in and love God, is to believe in and love Jesus. See Jn14:1-10. No one is given to Jesus BEFORE belief --- "given", therefore denotes "belief". It is Lydia in Acts16:14-15 (she was a WORSHIPER of God, belonged to Him, and (through her faith) she was given to Jesus). It is Cornelius in Acts 10. Salvation is never before nor apart from belief.

"Given", is "believing" --- so if one ceases to believe, he ceases to be "given"! Jesus has not CAST HIM OUT, nor has Jesus LOST him; he has left of his own accord.

See Jesus' response to Peter in Jn6:67-70 --- Peter protested his loyalty (as he did in Matt16). Many disciples were horrified at Jesus' talk of "eating His flesh and drinking His blood", and left; Jesus turned to the twelve, and said:


Jesus: "YOU aren't going to leave Me too, ARE you?"
Peter: "Of course not; we know You're the Messiah."
Jesus: "I chose all twelve of you, and one of you IS LEAVING!"

A little paraphrased, but Jesus plainly held up Judas as proof that "leaving was possible"!

Any other meaning possible in Jn6:70?

mailmandan
Oct 28th 2013, 07:34 PM
Agreed; yet, it is deeper.

Though our own righteousness of ourselves is only as "filthy rags" (the Greek is much more disgusting), though righteousness is imputed, we actually change --- not just "righteousness imputed/WHITEWASHED-OVER our sins, but we truly change and become righteous.

When you say change, are you referring to becoming born again, regenerated, new creation in Christ? Do you see an "imparted" righteousness along with an imputed righteousness?


2Cor5:21 says "we become the righteousness of God".
Matt5:48 we are to be perfect, even as God is perfect.

The argument here always seems to be is it our righteousness or the righteousness of Christ in 2 Corinthians 5:21? Also, does perfect mean sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, in Matthew 5:48 or mature, complete? Some use Matthew 5:48 to support sinless perfection doctrine.


Salvation is an intimate union/communion between sentient beings --- Creator (Jesus!), and creature (you and me). The closer we are to Christ, the more His heart becomes our heart, and the more we manifest His righteousness.

Amen! In John 17:3, And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent...which is an intimate, experiential knowledge (not merely theoretical knowledge), found only in a relationship.

episkopos
Oct 28th 2013, 07:43 PM
But you still have not walked without sin "continuously." I believe you once mentioned to me in a different thread that you once walked without sin for a period of three years. Why not the rest of your life continuously?

You don't have faith in the walk without sin so why should I relate this to you? Ask Peter if he ever walked on water (which you don't believe either)...and then berate him for his lack of faith...then look at yourself and see what you have done....then judge!


Who has not stumbled at times as a Christian? So you have experienced Romans 7 and Romans 8, then were lured back to Romans 7 again because of a lack of faithful continuance?

Yes. The enemy is very strong and without wisdom we are susceptible to his wiles...at least at first.



Can any Christian say they are faithful in everything they do 100% of the time? Do any of us never stumble or fall at times? Unfortunately, it happens! The flesh will continue to lust against the Spirit as long as we are in these bodies. We have our weak moments at times.

Yes we do...but is the rest of our walk in the heavenlies or just more fleshly walking? Actually the enemy doesn't bother to try tripping up Christians who only walk in their own strength. They trip over themselves.


I just don't believe that any of us live sinless, without fault or defect, flawless lives, continuosly. I'm yet to meet a Christian who claims that they have, "continuously."

I have tried sharing with you about a continuous walk in the Spirit...but you are unable to hear it or understand it. If a person can sing a note without pause for 3 years without taking a breath would you say he could sing continuously? You seem to not see the difference between this and having to take a breath every minute.


Proverbs 24:16 - For a righteous man may fall seven times and rise again, But the wicked shall fall by calamity.

yes! Rise again to what...more falling?


Amen! We need God's enabling power! We need grace. :)


:)



Who said that I never have experienced Romans 8? But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. Does it take a "continuous" sinless perfect walk to make it to Romans 8 and remain there?


Yes! It is as continuous as you can abide in Christ and His righteousness. Do believe in a fleshly holiness?


In Romans 7, Paul said, "O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? I thank God--through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin." Was Paul sinless and perfect continuously?


Not till later in his life. But he walked in a continuous walk of power for great lengths of time. Otherwise anyone could have written what he wrote. It would just be like the opinions we read here on the forum. You do believe that Paul walked in a perfect place do you not? Or do you write off the new testament as opinions of men?




What will that judgment determine for believers? Do we overcome by faith in Christ or by faith in reaching a sinless perfect status in order to save ourselves? In 1 John 3:7-10, we read - Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother. What do those who practice sin, do not practice righteousness, do not love their brother, demonstrate? Are they children of God or children of the devil?

We will be judged for worthiness of being the bride of Christ. Those who walk in their own strength have no place in the bride. Those who walk in Zion today will walk in white in the city at that time. Clothe yourself with the new man.


I have chosen to believe the gospel many years ago and continue to believe the gospel. The "gospel" is the "good news" of the "death, burial and resurrection of Christ" (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God for salvation to everyone that believes "trusts in Christ's finished work of redemption as the allsufficient means of their salvation" (Romans 1:16).

What does that mean? You have decided to place your trust in something that Jesus did for all men. He doesn't need your trust to make count what Jesus has done. We do need trust to forsake our lives and become slaves of Christ.



The gospel is a message of grace to be received through faith (Ephesians 2:8; Romans 5:1-2).

The gospel is not just a word message...it is the power of God towards us.





The gospel is not a set of rituals to perform, a code of laws to be obeyed or a check list of good works to accomplish as a prerequisite for salvation. Jesus needs no supplements! It simply sets forth Christ crucified, buried and risen as the Savior of all who believe (trust) exclusively in Him for salvation.



What is this exclusivity thing. Do you buy a coke and say I want that coke exclusively? Why do you add nonsense to your posts? It has nothing to do with what you want. The kingdom is according to the will of God...not your choices.

Gadgeteer
Oct 28th 2013, 08:22 PM
When you say change, are you referring to becoming born again, regenerated, new creation in Christ?Yes; we who are in Christ are "new creations" --- the old has passed away, all has become new. 2Cor5:17.

But note that we are to examine ourselves (by our works!) to see if we are still "in Christ". (2Cor13:5) It's the same directive as in 2Pet1:5-11.

Do you see an "imparted" righteousness along with an imputed righteousness?[/quote]Perhaps it is both; to be "justified" is to be DECLARED righteous (isn't that "imputed righteousness"?), but we are also "sanctified" MADE righteous (which is "imparted"). Never one without the other...


The argument here always seems to be is it our righteousness or the righteousness of Christ in 2 Corinthians 5:21? Also, does perfect mean sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, in Matthew 5:48 or mature, complete? Some use Matthew 5:48 to support sinless perfection doctrine. Actually, yes it means "SINLESS". And here is the importance of the discussion --- sinlessness is the measure of how we walk in Christ.

As we walk in Him we walk NOT in sin; but it's a daily struggle, NOT to fight against sin but to walk in Him that His overcoming of sin becomes ours. Therefore, "LAY ASIDE the old corrupt man, PUT ON the new righteous man, BE RENEWED in the spirit of your mind". Eph4:22-24.

:-)


Amen! In John 17:3, And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent...which is an intimate, experiential knowledge (not merely theoretical knowledge), found only in a relationship.

Amen backatchya! Salvation is fellowship; 1Jn1:3. It is "entering within the veil and communing with the very presence of Almighty God".

It is an awesome and humbling experience, and an incredibly joyful one!!!


"The Lord is my strength and my SONG, and has become my salvation!" Psalm 118:14

:-)

TBM 11
Oct 29th 2013, 12:40 AM
The Law was given to the world as a tutor. It is our schoolmaster that shows us the righteousness required to be saved apart from Christ. Once we are saved, we are no longer under the Law. Christ paid the price for us because of the love God had for us. This is a covenant that God made to himself. Under the covenant of grace it is no longer God saying I will if you will. Under the covenant of grace God said "I will." It is not based on do good get good.

If we are alive in Christ we are dead to sin (Romans 6:1-15). God does not even impute our sins(Romans 4:8, 5:13). We were sealed in Him by the Holy Spirit of promise.(Ephesians 1:13,14). We have been sanctified through Jesus once and for all. (Hebrews 10:10-14). Our sins He remembers no more (Hebrews 10:17). He tells us our works may earn us rewards in Heaven which will be tested by fire and any work that is burned up we will suffer loss but we ourselves shall be saved. ( 1 Corinthians 3:10-15).

To put our trust in Jesus means we believe that he paid for all our sins. (Hebrews 10:12) If believe that we lose our salvation for sins committed, there would need to be another sacrifice. (Hebrews 10:10, 7:22-27).

I once believed the same as some others do. The Spirit opened my eyes to the Truth one day and it has made all the difference in my walk with God. Blessings :)

Noeb
Oct 29th 2013, 12:48 AM
So then Jesus is not perfect?Not the discussion or context.



since you say we can't be perfectI didn't say that, but you are using a word (katartizō) that is never used in scripture as you are using it (teleioō).



Indeed, you have just picked your poison,You haven't even followed my posts.



See, he doesn't say 'He who is fully trained is thoroughly instructed and informed'I didn't say he did. I used the word as the context demands. You've got two things here. I didn't say that. I said, he that is "thoroughly instructed/informed" will be as his master. Jesus came to (fulfill) fill up to the full measure proper understanding of the law. To teach the spirit of the law that was not being taught.



but he says 'He who is fully trained is just like his teacher', in the case of Jesus being the teacher, perfect.The context is doing the spirit of the law verses the blind hypocritical pharisaic teaching. The word is always used for mending or restoring like you would a torn net. Jesus was teaching to hear the spirit of the law and do it and forget and don't do the blind hypocritical pharisaic teaching. One teaching will tear and break the man, the other will mend and restore the man. Hear the spirit of the law and bring forth good fruit. Don't hear the letter and bring forth death. Context.



The Word speaks of an abundant and powerful salvation in Jesus Christ which empowers us to be as he is, it speaks of walking in the power of his righteousness.Yes, but we're discussing Luke 6:40 and we should do it in context.

Noeb
Oct 29th 2013, 01:02 AM
But the plan is we are to do those works in love and obedience through abiding in Christ, aka walking in the Spirit, aka walking in Christ, and for Episkopos, aka walking in Zion.You make way more of abiding than scripture does. It is not walking in the Spirit, aka walking in Christ, and for Episkopos, aka walking in Zion. Abiding is staying not walking. You stay in Christ and walk in what he has provided. He that continually abides in Christ will walk in his provision. It's very simple, but when people mix terms and concepts together they end up making up a lot of stuff that's not in scripture.

Noeb
Oct 29th 2013, 01:09 AM
Yes! It is as continuous as you can abide in Christ and His righteousness.
We don't jump in and out of Christ:B

TBM 11
Oct 29th 2013, 01:30 AM
The Law was given to the world as a tutor. It is our schoolmaster that shows us the righteousness required to be saved apart from Christ. Once we are saved, we are no longer under the Law. Christ paid the price for us because of the love God had for us. This is a covenant that God made to himself. Under the covenant of grace it is no longer God saying I will if you will. Under the covenant of grace God said "I will." It is not based on do good get good.

If we are alive in Christ we are dead to sin (Romans 6:1-15). God does not even impute our sins(Romans 4:8, 5:13). We were sealed in Him by the Holy Spirit of promise.(Ephesians 1:13,14). We have been sanctified through Jesus once and for all. (Hebrews 10:10-14). Our sins He remembers no more (Hebrews 10:17). He tells us our works may earn us rewards in Heaven which will be tested by fire and any work that is burned up we will suffer loss but we ourselves shall be saved. ( 1 Corinthians 3:10-15).

To put our trust in Jesus means we believe that he paid for all our sins. (Hebrews 10:12) If believe that we lose our salvation for sins committed, there would need to be another sacrifice. (Hebrews 10:10, 7:22-27).

I once believed the same as some others do. The Spirit opened my eyes to the Truth one day and it has made all the difference in my walk with God. Blessings :)

Think I need to add one more thing.

Luke 7:50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.

Read the whole story 7:36-50 It's a good'n! :yes:

Gadgeteer
Oct 29th 2013, 01:49 AM
The Law was given to the world as a tutor. It is our schoolmaster that shows us the righteousness required to be saved apart from Christ. Once we are saved, we are no longer under the Law. Christ paid the price for us because of the love God had for us. This is a covenant that God made to himself. Under the covenant of grace it is no longer God saying I will if you will. Under the covenant of grace God said "I will." It is not based on do good get good.

If we are alive in Christ we are dead to sin (Romans 6:1-15). God does not even impute our sins(Romans 4:8, 5:13). We were sealed in Him by the Holy Spirit of promise.(Ephesians 1:13,14). We have been sanctified through Jesus once and for all. (Hebrews 10:10-14). Our sins He remembers no more (Hebrews 10:17).What happens if we continue sinning willfully after having been saved? Heb10:26 --- Jesus' sacrifice no longer covers us, does it? We then become the man who tramples Jesus, insults the Spirit, and scorns the blood that once sanctified him! (10:29)


He tells us our works may earn us rewards in Heaven which will be tested by fire and any work that is burned up we will suffer loss but we ourselves shall be saved. ( 1 Corinthians 3:10-15).Jesus said "No good tree produces bad fruits; you will KNOW them by their fruits".

Did that mean anything but "good-tree SAVED", and "good-fruit-unburning-works"?


To put our trust in Jesus means we believe that he paid for all our sins. (Hebrews 10:12) If believe that we lose our salvation for sins committed, there would need to be another sacrifice. (Hebrews 10:10, 7:22-27).I look forward to your thoughts on Heb10:26-29.

Meanwhile, Heb6:4-6 --- those who were once saved, but now are falling away, by their constant sin it is as if Jesus had to sacrifice Himself over and over.

Right?


I once believed the same as some others do. The Spirit opened my eyes to the Truth one day and it has made all the difference in my walk with God. Blessings :)

What you once believed doesn't matter; does what you believe now, align with Scripture? Looking forward to your answers to these verses.

:-)

episkopos
Oct 29th 2013, 01:50 AM
We don't jump in and out of Christ:B

Yes we do...that is if someone has actually been there. We are to put on Christ as armour. We put on the new man so that we don't sin. We sin when we walk in our own strength. So then a lot of Christians must know all about what NOT abiding in Christ results in.

The bible says that when we abide in Christ we walk exactly as Jesus did. That is more authoritative than your doubtings.

1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him

1Jn 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

So either John is wrong about this or Jesus must also have sinned.


How many people actually have faith in God's provision. It would seem that faith today is very rare indeed. People tend to judge by their thinking and doubts. Where's the faith in God?

episkopos
Oct 29th 2013, 01:54 AM
Think I need to add one more thing.

Luke 7:50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.

Read the whole story 7:36-50 It's a good'n! :yes:

Another misunderstanding...salvation is about being delivered out of a present situation.

Act 27:31 Paul said to the centurion and to the soldiers, Except these abide in the ship, ye cannot be saved.

So do you teach that we need to abide in "the ship" in order to be saved? Why not? You are always making the wrong assumption about what you are reading...

TBM 11
Oct 29th 2013, 02:01 AM
Another misunderstanding...salvation is about being delivered out of a present situation.

Act 27:31 Paul said to the centurion and to the soldiers, Except these abide in the ship, ye cannot be saved.

So do you teach that we need to abide in "the ship" in order to be saved? Why not? You are always making the wrong assumption about what you are reading...

What part of Luke 7:50 did you not understand?

episkopos
Oct 29th 2013, 02:04 AM
What part of Luke 7:50 did you not understand?

Do you abide in "the ship" in order to be saved according to the plain writing of the word? Hmm?

TBM 11
Oct 29th 2013, 02:05 AM
Gadgeteer said "What happens if we continue sinning willfully after having been saved? Heb10:26 --- Jesus' sacrifice no longer covers us, does it? We then become the man who tramples Jesus, insults the Spirit, and scorns the blood that once sanctified him! (10:29)"

You are misinterpreting the scripture saying that these were already saved. v26 the word "sinning" means rejecting the Truth. The word "receiving" means they heard it.

mailmandan
Oct 29th 2013, 02:13 AM
We don't jump in and out of Christ:B

Jesus is "the door" (John 10:9) not a revolving door. :)

episkopos
Oct 29th 2013, 02:18 AM
Jesus is "the door" (John 10:9) not a revolving door.

And He is knocking and waiting to be invited in to so much that claims to already be Christian....

mailmandan
Oct 29th 2013, 02:55 AM
You don't have faith in the walk without sin so why should I relate this to you? Ask Peter if he ever walked on water (which you don't believe either)...and then berate him for his lack of faith...then look at yourself and see what you have done....then judge!

I believe that Peter walked on water. Peter got out of the boat, and walked on the water and came toward Jesus. But seeing the wind, he became frightened, and beginning to sink, he cried out, "Lord, save me!" Immediately Jesus stretched out His hand and took hold of him, and said to him, "You of little faith, why did you doubt?" (Matthew 14:29-31). When did I berate Peter for his little faith during that situation? How many of us would not have been frightened in that situation and kept right on walking? I don't put myself above Peter.


I have tried sharing with you about a continuous walk in the Spirit...but you are unable to hear it or understand it.

I hear and understand what you are saying.


yes! Rise again to what...more falling?

May fall seven times and rise again - Proverbs 24:16. Are you above falling at all?


Not till later in his life. But he walked in a continuous walk of power for great lengths of time. Otherwise anyone could have written what he wrote. It would just be like the opinions we read here on the forum. You do believe that Paul walked in a perfect place do you not? Or do you write off the new testament as opinions of men?

Paul mentioned that Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief (1 Timothy 1:15). I never heard Paul claim to be sinless, without fault or defect, flawless. In Philippians 3:12, Paul said - Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me. Paul has made great progress in Christlikeness, but the goal is still before him, not behind him.


We will be judged for worthiness of being the bride of Christ. Those who walk in their own strength have no place in the bride. Those who walk in Zion today will walk in white in the city at that time. Clothe yourself with the new man.

So it's not about believer or unbeliever? (John 3:18). It's about sinless, flawless or not sinless, flawless?


What does that mean? You have decided to place your trust in something that Jesus did for all men.

Jesus died for our sins, was buried, and rose again the third day to provide for us eternal life. His finished work of redemption was not something that had to happen in order to just simply make it "possible" for us to "save ourselves through sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, performance." Most people will either continue to do their own thing and not even consider their sin or need for a Savior or else they will try to reach heaven some other way, namely, by works.


He doesn't need your trust to make count what Jesus has done. We do need trust to forsake our lives and become slaves of Christ.

He needs us to place our faith in Him for salvation, not in ourselves. Believers have been set free from sin and became slaves of righteousness (Romans 6:18).


The gospel is not just a word message...it is the power of God towards us.

It is the power of God unto salvation for everyone that BELIEVES. It's not hard to understand, just hard for you to ACCEPT.


What is this exclusivity thing. Do you buy a coke and say I want that coke exclusively? Why do you add nonsense to your posts? It has nothing to do with what you want. The kingdom is according to the will of God...not your choices.

Salvation is not by works, not by sinless, flawless performance, but by faith in Christ. Are you trusting exclusively in Christ as the allsufficient means of your salvation or are you trusting in attaining and maintaining sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, performance in your lifetime as the means of your salvation?

mailmandan
Oct 29th 2013, 03:04 AM
Actually, yes it means "SINLESS". And here is the importance of the discussion --- sinlessness is the measure of how we walk in Christ.

So how many Christians live sinless, without fault or defect, flawless perfect lives continuously?


As we walk in Him we walk NOT in sin; but it's a daily struggle, NOT to fight against sin but to walk in Him that His overcoming of sin becomes ours. Therefore, "LAY ASIDE the old corrupt man, PUT ON the new righteous man, BE RENEWED in the spirit of your mind". Eph4:22-24.

It is a daily struggle. Is your walk a sinless, without fault or defect, flawless perfect walk, continuously? Exactly as Jesus walked 100% of the time? I'm yet to hear a Christian claim that they are sinless and perfect 100% of the time.

Gadgeteer
Oct 29th 2013, 03:28 AM
We don't jump in and out of Christ:B


"Brethren, if any among you wander away from the faith, and (IF) another leads him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way has saved a soul from death (thanatos --- death and HELL) and covered many sins." James5:19-20.

No one can wander away from faith he never had; nor can he be led back to where he never was --- this is ALL ABOUT falling from salvation, and being restored!

Isn't it?


"They were broken off for unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will He spare you! Behold then the kindness and severity of God --- to those who fell, severity; to you, God's kindness, if you CONTINUE in His kindness, else you also will be cut off. And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in again." Rom11:20-23

Another "jump-in-and-jump-out-of-salvation", isn't it?


"When (the Prodigal) had come to his senses, ...he got up and came to his father."
"He was dead and is alive again, was lost and has now been found!" Luke15:17, 20, 32

Scripture is full of "jumping in and out of salvation", isn't it?


"I tell you there will be more joy in Heaven over one sinner who REPENTS, than over ninety-nine righteous men who need no repentance!" Luke15:7

Zero fit for Lk15:7 and "can't-jump-in-and-out-of-Christ", is there?

Gadgeteer
Oct 29th 2013, 03:39 AM
Gadgeteer said "What happens if we continue sinning willfully after having been saved? Heb10:26 --- Jesus' sacrifice no longer covers us, does it? We then become the man who tramples Jesus, insults the Spirit, and scorns the blood that once sanctified him! (10:29)"

You are misinterpreting the scripture saying that these were already saved.You think so, TBM?


"If WE continue sinning willfully after having received EPIGNOSIS-TRUE-KNOWLEDGE of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for (OUR!) sins but a terrifying expectation of judgment and fury of fire which will consume the adversaries. ...How much severer punishment will he deserve who has trampled Jesus, insulted the Spirit, and scorned the blood that ONCE SANCTIFIED him?

Therefore do not throw away your confidence (don't throw away JESUS! Heb10:19, 6:19). For you need endurance SO THAT WHEN you have done the will of God you may receive the promise!" Heb10:26-36


v26 the word "sinning" means rejecting the Truth. The word "receiving" means they heard it.
"Epignosis" is true, experiential knowledge. See 2Pet1:2.

Did you see the thread on "the entire letter of Hebrews"? Chapter after chapter and verse after verse, the whole letter admonishing against "falling-from-salvation"!

If I link you to the thread (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php/250165-OSAS-and-the-entire-letter-of-Hebrews?), will you consider it?

:-)

Gadgeteer
Oct 29th 2013, 04:07 AM
So how many Christians live sinless, without fault or defect, flawless perfect lives continuously? Hi, Dan. :wave:

Scripture says none.


"If WE say we have no sin, then we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us." 1Jn1:8

While we live, we struggle with the flesh; sin is always a temptation. After we sin, what do we do next? It's the same choice --- to sin again, or to repent and throw ourselves at His feet truly seeking His power to avoid sin.

It is not the SIN that condemns us, but the "again".


It is a daily struggle.That it is. But we struggle only with FAITH, not with strength --- for it is HIS strength, through our faith. So verses like Rom8:12-14 and 2Tim1:12-14 say.


Is your walk a sinless, without fault or defect, flawless perfect walk, continuously? Exactly as Jesus walked 100% of the time? I'm yet to hear a Christian claim that they are sinless and perfect 100% of the time.

That's the issue --- salvation is in Christ. When we are in sin, we are not in Christ. This is the import of the whole issue, and my motivation for posting on message boards --- Rom11 says we are to not be conceited but fear; "conceit" is thinking we can NOT be cut off from Jesus.

We can be cut off because of unbelief. What is the difference between "unbelief", and sin that has become a habit/walk?

Nothing.

mailmandan
Oct 29th 2013, 11:00 AM
Hi, Dan. :wave:

Scripture says none.


"If WE say we have no sin, then we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us." 1Jn1:8


Hi, Gadgeteer. :wave:

Exactly! This is the point that I keep trying to make but certain people on this forum seem to believe otherwise.


While we live, we struggle with the flesh; sin is always a temptation. After we sin, what do we do next? It's the same choice --- to sin again, or to repent and throw ourselves at His feet truly seeking His power to avoid sin. It is not the SIN that condemns us, but the "again".

Not just again. Can you say from this moment to the end of your life that you will never sin again? In Galatians 5:21, Paul refers to those who "make a practice of doing" such things, as a pattern of life. It is the lifestyle, or pattern of this behavior being exibited in one's life. To stumble and sin intermittently is different than making these behaviors a lifestyle. The idea is to perform repeatedly or habitually and thus describes repetition or continuous action. There is certainly a difference between practice sin (no repentance just bring it on) and commit an act of sin but pursue repentance.


That it is. But we struggle only with FAITH, not with strength --- for it is HIS strength, through our faith. So verses like Rom8:12-14 and 2Tim1:12-14 say.

People can have faith in Jesus to save them yet not always have faith in Jesus to simply get them through the day. Certain people seem to imply that anything short of a continuous sinless, without fault or defect, flawless perfect walk equates to living according to the flesh and not being led by the Spirit. I view living (habitually) according to the flesh as practicing sin. Romans 8:12-14 - So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.


That's the issue --- salvation is in Christ. When we are in sin, we are not in Christ. This is the import of the whole issue, and my motivation for posting on message boards --- Rom11 says we are to not be conceited but fear; "conceit" is thinking we can NOT be cut off from Jesus.

Every single time that we sin we are no longer in Christ? We lose our salvation everytime we sin and then regain it once again once we pursue repentance? Are we in unbelief and cut off every single time we have a weak moment and mess up?


We can be cut off because of unbelief. What is the difference between "unbelief", and sin that has become a habit/walk?

Nothing.

So even though we believe/entrust our spiritual well being to Christ; have faith/reliance upon Christ for salvation, when we sin at all, our belief now becomes unbelief? I see habitual sin (practicing sin) as a manifestation of unbelief, but even the most committed Christians have weak moments at times and mess up. I don't view commit an act of sin but pursue repentance as unbelief.

episkopos
Oct 29th 2013, 12:04 PM
If sin is no longer an issue and all that claim Christ for themselves are seen as righteous as Christ automatically...then this undermines most of what is written in the bible concerning obedience and sin..

If we are all under sin but just forgiven even AFTER we put on Christ then the bible is wrong about..

1. Obedience- completely unnecessary since all are covered by Jesus. In fact any worries about our poor showing is just a lack of faith in the cross and it's obliterating effect on reality.

2. All men being judged by their works- How can you judge what is not there? Jesus has been judged instead of us...He pays the price and we get all the benefits. What a scheme!!!!

3. Different rewards in heaven- Since we are all covered in the same way...is there a heavenly dartboard to determine who gets more? What is the difference between gold and cardboard when God is blind to our performance?

4. No need to strive, seek and overcome as is written so many times- in fact by doing these things one would be showing a lack of faith in the "completed" work of Christ on their behalf.

5. No need to fear God- God is our buddy now. His Son shields His eyes from our true condition.

6. What holiness?- holiness is reduced to just being on the winning team. Holiness now has to put up with sin...a sinful holiness!!! Can you say freedom?????

7. The race of faith and attaining Christ- Just another Pauline delusion that negates that Jesus did it all already. This is about saving human flesh after all.

8- Humility- If you have it, then flaunt it. Humility is for losers. That is what true evangelism entails..... making others envious of the immunity over sin and the rewards you get...for NOTHING. Who else but a god come come up with this stuff....??? Why doesn't everybody just believe? It's so easy!!! But hurry because this is a time limited offer. Come on down!!!

In fact heaven looks more like America through these destructive doctrines that seek to make the will of men felt over the plain meaning of scripture. Did heaven undergo a revolution and a declaration of independence so that God puts up with a sinful holiness now? But there has been a revolt in heaven...an independence movement to stop God from destroying that which is sinful...and elevating such rebellious ones to heaven. And God seems impotent to do anything about it...at least for now.

Eyelog
Oct 29th 2013, 12:06 PM
I see habitual sin (practicing sin) as a manifestation of unbelief, but even the most committed Christians have weak moments at times and mess up. I don't view commit an act of sin but pursue repentance as unbelief.

Hello, Mailman. I tend to agree with your statement here. I think it is hard to believe and hard to not believe. i think we can be stuck in a pattern of sin, yet saved. i think we can mess up all the time and be saved. The question is what is our faith regarding God. If I trust Him as Savior for eternal life, do I also trust Him as Lord for this life and the life to come?

If i trust Him as Lord, I am not complacent in my sin patterns, but I am seeking Him and a way to repent and change.

On the other hand, apostasy would be failing to trust Him for salvation or as Lord. Much emphasis has been on the lordship side here.

At MT 21:28-32, Jesus has the parable about the two sons, one of whom says he will obey (but doesn't) and the other says he will not. Later the latter obeys anyway. which one was obedient?

Eyelog
Oct 29th 2013, 12:12 PM
If sin is no longer an issue and all that claim Christ for themselves are seen as righteous as Christ automatically...then this undermines most of what is written in the bible concerning obedience and sin..

If we are all under sin but just forgiven even AFTER we put on Christ then the bible is wrong about..

1. Obedience- completely unnecessary since all are covered by Jesus. In fact any worries about our poor showing is just a lack of faith in the cross and it's obliterating effect on reality.

2. All men being judged by their works- How can you judge what is not there? Jesus has been judged instead of us...He pays the price and we get all the benefits. What a scheme!!!!

3. Different rewards in heaven- Since we are all covered in the same way...is there a heavenly dartboard to determine who gets more? What is the difference between gold and cardboard when God is blind to our performance?

4. No need to strive, seek and overcome as is written so many times- in fact by doing these things one would be showing a lack of faith in the "completed| work of Christ on their behalf.

5. No need to fear God- God is our buddy now. His Son shields His eyes from our true condition.

6. What holiness?- holiness is reduced to just being on the winning team.

7. The race of faith and attaining Christ- Just another Pauline delusion that negates that Jesus did it all already. This is about saving human flesh after all.

8- Humility- If you have it, then flaunt it. Humility is for losers. That is what true evangelism entails..... making others envious of the immunity over sin and the rewards you get...for NOTHING. Who else but a god come come up with this stuff....??? Why doesn't everybody just believe? It's so easy!!! But hurry because this is a time limited offer. Come on down!!!

In fact heaven looks more like America through this destructive doctrines that seek to make the will of men felt over the plain meaning of scripture. Did heaven undergo a revolution and a declaration of independence so that God puts up with a sinful holiness now? But there has been a revolt in heaven...an independence movement to stop God from destroying that which is sinful...and elevating such rebellious ones to heaven. And God seems impotent to do anything about it...at least for now.

Episkopos, I agree with all of this. I place it under the heading of Are We Seeking God to Repent and Become Like Christ or Not? Those who are not seeking repentance and Christlikeness in this lifetime are not doing so well in the Lordship category, unless they have already come to be Christlike.

But you point to the person who is either not saved to begin with or who has never matured much or who is apostasizing. I believe most Christians I have met in the world are in the middle category, very unknowledgeable and very immature in Christ.

But I believe some people can be very faithful with what they have, though it be in some amount of ignorance.

---=Edited Point=---

Those who do not engage God and grow in Him, so as to not remain immature, are at risk of making it by the skin of their teeth, ... if that.

---=Further Edited Point=---

Whenever the weakness in our doctrine and teaching is exposed by the Spirit, as here, the question is always what to do about it. Go on a campaign to alert pastors and teachers? Reach the masses via a book or radio or TV campaign? Change the mind of a reader of BibleForum (nearly impossible)? Pray about it and keep proclaiming it in every venue you have?

Then, there is the question of what the hearers should do. Change their doctrine? Change the way they talk? Change their attitude? Change their behavior? ... Just admit that they are wrong, repent, seek forgiveness, and try to do better next time?

---=A Final Edited Point=---

Perhaps it is the entire approach to God which is the problem here. Perhaps we just need a better slogan, to upgrade the "Not a Religion, But a Relationship" slogan which actually helped me to understand what Christianity was, as a species, when i came to the Lord out of academia at age 30.

episkopos
Oct 29th 2013, 12:52 PM
Episkopos, I agree with all of this. I place it under the heading of Are We Seeking God to Repent and Become Like Christ or Not? Those who are not seeking repentance and Christlikeness in this lifetime are not doing so well in the Lordship category, unless they have already come to be Christlike.

But you point to the person who is either not saved to begin with or who has never matured much or who is apostasizing. I believe most Christians I have met in the world are in the middle category, very unknowledgeable and very immature in Christ.

But I believe some people can be very faithful with what they have, though it be in some amount of ignorance.

---=Edited Point=---

Those who do not engage God and grow in Him, so as to not remain immature, are at risk of making it by the skin of their teeth, ... if that.

---=Further Edited Point=---

Whenever the weakness in our doctrine and teaching is exposed by the Spirit, as here, the question is always what to do about it. Go on a campaign to alert pastors and teachers? Reach the masses via a book or radio or TV campaign? Change the mind of a reader of BibleForum (nearly impossible)? Pray about it and keep proclaiming it in every venue you have?

Then, there is the question of what the hearers should do. Change their doctrine? Change the way they talk? Change their attitude? Change their behavior? ... Just admit that they are wrong, repent, seek forgiveness, and try to do better next time?

---=A Final Edited Point=---

Perhaps it is the entire approach to God which is the problem here. Perhaps we just need a better slogan, to upgrade the "Not a Religion, But a Relationship" slogan which actually helped me to understand what Christianity was, as a species, when i came to the Lord out of academia at age 30.

I think that the emphasis on evangelism has been taken by very success driven people who have allowed the masses to enter into the church. The devil is behind this. Soon there are so many false Christians in the churches that others just slacken down in order to have fellowship with them...but always in the downward spiral.

So then Christianity has been marketed like any corporation. A denomination is like a franchise with outlets in every city. These are governed by a CEO and have a board that stratagize how to grow their product.

I think if people knew where the doctrines they so ardently defend actually came from....they would fall to the ground...well the righteous ones would...the others would just wink.

episkopos
Oct 29th 2013, 12:58 PM
http://bibleforums.org/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by mailmandan http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=3063798#post3063798)

I see habitual sin (practicing sin) as a manifestation of unbelief, but even the most committed Christians have weak moments at times and mess up. I don't view commit an act of sin but pursue repentance as unbelief.





Do you trust God with deciding when a person is permitted to abide in Christ? Do you trust that God is able to determine who has sinned in a way that causes them to no longer abide?



We only learn about God in truth by experience. So if my opinion about holiness and sin differs from God's...don't you think He will show me? So if I think I can get away with something while abiding in Christ only to fall out of that intimacy....does this not train me?


The purpose of God is to train us. This idea about a permanent saved status is so evil that one can no longer be trained by God who DOES allow us in and out of His intimate fellowship. This is for training. The devil has immunized his people against growth in Christ...and many Christians are even led to believe as they do. If possible even the elect could be deceived...

Those who ridicule God and the ones He is training because of the way He chooses to show us His ways...are twice removed from God.

Eyelog
Oct 29th 2013, 12:59 PM
I think that the emphasis on evangelism has been taken by very success driven people who have allowed the masses to enter into the church. The devil is behind this. Soon there are so many false Christians in the churches that others just slacken down in order to have fellowship with them...but always in the downward spiral.

So then Christianity has been marketed like any corporation. A denomination is like a franchise with outlets in every city. These are governed by a CEO and have a board that stratagize how to grow their product.

I think if people knew where the doctrines they so ardently defend actually came from....they would fall to the ground...well the righteous ones would...the others would just wink.

It's not like this hasn't happened before. The cure in the most glaring case was a Protestant Reformation, which took hundreds of years to complete.

Can you think of a period after the first Century when the appeal to the masses was not hogwash? Can you think of a time after the first Century when the true church was manifest and pure and the people were getting it right? Or, has it always been small pockets here and there, individuals here and there?

Eyelog
Oct 29th 2013, 01:07 PM
We only learn about God in truth by experience.

I'll be the first to jump on this one. When Jesus speaks of worshipping in Spirit and in truth, He does not mean based on the truth of one's doctrine, per se. He does not mean on the basis of one's knowledge fo the Word, per se. He means based on the honesty of one's heart, standing before the Lord, offering all of one's self up in worship. This is necessarily an experiential relationship between the individual and God. No amount of head knowledge can replace it.

The one on one relationship with the Lord is what is experiential, and as you say, Episkopos, the truth about that relationship becomes readily manifest. ... And what are we doing in response? That is always the question, as we seek Him and receive from Him.

episkopos
Oct 29th 2013, 01:16 PM
I'll be the first to jump on this one. When Jesus speaks of worshipping in Spirit and in truth, He does not mean based on the truth of one's doctrine, per se. He does not mean on the basis of one's knowledge fo the Word, per se. He means based on the honesty of one's heart, standing before the Lord, offering all of one's self up in worship. This is necessarily an experiential relationship between the individual and God. No amount of head knowledge can replace it.

The one on one relationship with the Lord is what is experiential, and as you say, Episkopos, the truth about that relationship becomes readily manifest. ... And what are we doing in response? That is always the question, as we seek Him and receive from Him.

Yes! And those who take on this positional doctrine negate the truth that whom God loves He CHASTENS...He abandons them for a time to their own devices until they cry out anew for the living waters of His presence. But the mockers scoff at this and claim to have a more biblical doctrine who know nothing of God and His ways in reality. They just claim that since they don't go in and out of God's presence their reality is that they are always in fellowship (theoretically)....rather than actually always out.

keck553
Oct 29th 2013, 01:46 PM
Cotton Candy religious doctrine -

"You are a sinner, and marked for hell. So, close your eyes, believe in Jesus, say the magic prayer, then continue your carnal life as if your profession of faith was just an inoculation you had to endure, but now you can move on and live your life your own way, and continue in your sin."

And if you read your Bible, whenever you read about Jesus saying "Your faith has saved you, stop sinning," just black out the "stop sinning" part. Obviously Jesus meant that part was voluntary.

Noeb
Oct 29th 2013, 01:53 PM
"Brethren, if any among you wander away from the faith, and (IF) another leads him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way has saved a soul from death (thanatos --- death and HELL) and covered many sins." James5:19-20.

No one can wander away from faith he never had; nor can he be led back to where he never was --- this is ALL ABOUT falling from salvation, and being restored!

Isn't it?


"They were broken off for unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will He spare you! Behold then the kindness and severity of God --- to those who fell, severity; to you, God's kindness, if you CONTINUE in His kindness, else you also will be cut off. And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in again." Rom11:20-23

Another "jump-in-and-jump-out-of-salvation", isn't it?


"When (the Prodigal) had come to his senses, ...he got up and came to his father."
"He was dead and is alive again, was lost and has now been found!" Luke15:17, 20, 32

Scripture is full of "jumping in and out of salvation", isn't it?


"I tell you there will be more joy in Heaven over one sinner who REPENTS, than over ninety-nine righteous men who need no repentance!" Luke15:7

Zero fit for Lk15:7 and "can't-jump-in-and-out-of-Christ", is there?not what we were discussing. Epi teaches we only abide in Christ when we are sinless. What's sad is many that give props to episkopos' abide posts really don't agree, but that's what happens when we invent our own language to describe doctrine.

TBM 11
Oct 29th 2013, 02:31 PM
You think so, TBM?


"If WE continue sinning willfully after having received EPIGNOSIS-TRUE-KNOWLEDGE of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for (OUR!) sins but a terrifying expectation of judgment and fury of fire which will consume the adversaries. ...How much severer punishment will he deserve who has trampled Jesus, insulted the Spirit, and scorned the blood that ONCE SANCTIFIED him?

Therefore do not throw away your confidence (don't throw away JESUS! Heb10:19, 6:19). For you need endurance SO THAT WHEN you have done the will of God you may receive the promise!" Heb10:26-36


"Epignosis" is true, experiential knowledge. See 2Pet1:2.

Did you see the thread on "the entire letter of Hebrews"? Chapter after chapter and verse after verse, the whole letter admonishing against "falling-from-salvation"!

If I link you to the thread (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php/250165-OSAS-and-the-entire-letter-of-Hebrews?), will you consider it?

:-)

Hi Gadgeteer

Thank you but no, I will not consider the link. Verse 26 in Heb. is being misinterpreted. For a person to go on willfully sinning after hearing the Truth and claiming to be saved would mean they were never saved in the first place. The key is "willfully sin." A born again Christian can not sin willfully without there being a conviction by the Holy Spirit. Remember what Paul said about his struggle with sin? Have you ever willfully sinned? I would dare to say that most every Christian that ever lived has willfully sinned. A new Christian most definitely has willfully sinned wouldn't you say?

The reason I know this verse and others that have been offered here in support of your claims that salvation can be lost is because if they were true, it would completely contradict MANY other verses saying that we can't. Many of those verses have been given here and are too plain and need no bending or twisting to make them say anything other than what they mean. The security of the true believer is all over the bible you only have to open your eyes and see it. Take John 10:28 for example. How can that be misinterpreted to mean anything other than what it says? It is the words of Jesus Himself!

If you want to continue to try to argue this just to prove you are right, be my guest. I already know what the real message of salvation is because He showed it to me, not you. I pray that He will show you and others here as well. Blessings

Gadgeteer
Oct 29th 2013, 03:30 PM
Hi, Gadgeteer. :wave:

Exactly! This is the point that I keep trying to make but certain people on this forum seem to believe otherwise. Well, sinlessness is a goal. Towards that, we follow what James said:

"Resist the devil and he will flee from you; draw near to God and God will draw near to you. Humble yourselves before God and He will exalt you."


Not just again. Can you say from this moment to the end of your life that you will never sin again? In Galatians 5:21, Paul refers to those who "make a practice of doing" such things, as a pattern of life. It is the lifestyle, or pattern of this behavior being exhibited in one's life.That's what "again" (and again and again) means.


To stumble and sin intermittently is different than making these behaviors a lifestyle. The idea is to perform repeatedly or habitually and thus describes repetition or continuous action. There is certainly a difference between practice sin (no repentance just bring it on) and commit an act of sin but pursue repentance. 'Zactly. :-)


People can have faith in Jesus to save them yet not always have faith in Jesus to simply get them through the day. Certain people seem to imply that anything short of a continuous sinless, without fault or defect, flawless perfect walk equates to living according to the flesh and not being led by the Spirit. I view living (habitually) according to the flesh as practicing sin. Romans 8:12-14 - So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you.The rest of Romans8 asserts "set your minds on things above" --- echoed in Col3:1-3. Do not walk in the flesh, according to its lusts; if you do you must die. But if by the Spirit you are putting to death the flesh, you will live.

It's a "focus-thing" --- we focus not on fighting/crucifying our flesh, but on drawing near to God that our flesh IS crucified as the consequence. Scripture says "as a man thinks (inside), so is he" --- we focus not on the bad, but fill our hearts and souls so full of God and His righteousness that there is no room for sin.


Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. Careful --- there is a view called "Antinomianism", which claims the flesh is sinful/corrupt but the SPIRIT is saved. I guarantee, by Scripture, if the flesh is walking in drunkenness/fornication/stealing/murder/carousing/etc, the spirit ain't saved. THAT is what 1Cor6:9-11 and Eph5:5-6 and Gal5:19-21 (and 1Jn, especially 3:5-10) teach. I know you and I agree on that. :-)


[Every single time that we sin we are no longer in Christ? We lose our salvation every time we sin and then regain it once again once we pursue repentance?I know you and I disagree on "OSAS". However --- think about what salvation IS, and about what sin IS.

Salvation is "in Christ and Christ in us" --- it is an intimate indwelt fellowship, Jesus truly indwells us personally, and so does the Holy Spirit. We are FILLED with the Spirit --- the conscious persons of God, in a fellowship/union/communion.

What is sin? See Isaiah65:12 --- they did the things God did not want them to do, they turned away from Him and His calling. Because "salvation" is Jesus and the Spirit indwelling in personal fellowship, doesn't SIN require that they participate? :eek:

So --- every sin is turning away from God and from fellowship with Him. God WILL NOT participate in sin, in Him there IS no sin! (1Jn3:5) Is this point arguable? No.

As you say, when sin becomes a practice, then we absolutely are not walking in Christ as salvation is; no one can serve two masters, we either serve God and are dead to sin, or we serve sin and are dead to God.


Are we in unbelief and cut off every single time we have a weak moment and mess up?There is no difference between the idea of "sin", and the idea of "unbelief" --- he who abides in Christ BELIEVES, he who disbelieves abides in SIN. There are only two real-estates in the Universe --- in Christ (belief), or in sin (unbelief).

You and I agree on what salvation is, and that we cannot walk in sin; some day maybe we'll come to agreement on "OSNAS", because to continue in OSAS one would have to assert that there's some kind of limitation on how much sin we can do before fellowship is broken.

There is no such limitation; Ezk18:24 speaks of a righteous man turning to unrighteousness and ALL his righteous deeds will be forgotten. 1Cor10:12-13 states that sin is always a choice --- each time we sin we [b]absolutely DO turn away from God, that's what sin is. When we repent and confess, do we not turn BACK to God? If we do not repent and turn back, where are we then?

One who absolutely is "saved" --- is there some mechanism which LIMITS his ability to sin, such that he cannot turn away from God? Scripture says there is no such mechanism; that is why Peter charges us to be diligent to have perseverance, SO THAT the gates of Heaven BE provided (2:1:5-11). It is why Hebrews warns us to be careful lest any of our hearts be hardened to evil sinfulness that falls away from God --- we are partners in Christ IF we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end.


So even though we believe/entrust our spiritual well being to Christ; have faith/reliance upon Christ for salvation, when we sin at all, our belief now becomes unbelief? I see habitual sin (practicing sin) as a manifestation of unbelief, but even the most committed Christians have weak moments at times and mess up. I don't view commit an act of sin but pursue repentance as unbelief.

Every act of sin is stepping through the door of "unbelief", away from the intimate fellowship that is salvation. That is why we're admonished to WALK in Him and to GUARD against sins --- see James' warning in 1:14-16, we are enticed and carried away by our own lusts, lust conceived births sin and sin brings death --- do not be deceived beloved brethren!

Sin brings death. "Thanatos", conveying physical death with implication of HELL in the lexicon.

It's not vital that you and I agree on OSAS, because we agree on the essences of salvation, "Christ-in-you" and "filled with the Spirit", "not walking in sin" --- we will be together with Christ when He returns. But (you knew I was gonna say "but"!) now you know the verses that prevent me from also holding "OSAS". I think in time you'll come to see that these verses stand strong against "unfallible salvation", but I'm not worried if you don't. We have the same goals, to grow in Christ, and to show Him to a lost and dying world.

With complete certainty the greatest success of BOTH of our lives, will be to hear the Lord say "Well done, good and faithful servant".

:-)

episkopos
Oct 29th 2013, 03:39 PM
not what we were discussing. Epi teaches we only abide in Christ when we are sinless. What's sad is many that give props to episkopos' abide posts really don't agree, but that's what happens when we invent our own language to describe doctrine.

The bible teaches that we are sinless when we abide in Christ. Christ is the only source of a victory over sin. That's why He is called the Saviour.

We need Christ BECAUSE we can't stop sinning on our own. He is our sinlessness. So we walk in Him and experience His life...which happens to be pure and sinless. Do you begrudge people that walk?

episkopos
Oct 29th 2013, 03:43 PM
We don't jump in and out of a saved status. That status thing is an invention of men. We do come in and out of the presence of God with the salvation provision being either taken up or else rejected albeit temporarily in many cases. God even takes away His presence at times so that we can learn to cry out...ABBA Father.


One should never judge a thing before the time. If somebody wants so much to know his status at judgment...then let patience have it's perfect work. God will judge all on that day. Until then we all run the race of faith.

Gadgeteer
Oct 29th 2013, 03:44 PM
If sin is no longer an issue and all that claim Christ for themselves are seen as righteous as Christ automatically...then this undermines most of what is written in the bible concerning obedience and sin..

If we are all under sin but just forgiven even AFTER we put on Christ then the bible is wrong about..

1. Obedience- completely unnecessary since all are covered by Jesus. In fact any worries about our poor showing is just a lack of faith in the cross and it's obliterating effect on reality.

2. All men being judged by their works- How can you judge what is not there? Jesus has been judged instead of us...He pays the price and we get all the benefits. What a scheme!!!!

3. Different rewards in heaven- Since we are all covered in the same way...is there a heavenly dartboard to determine who gets more? What is the difference between gold and cardboard when God is blind to our performance?

4. No need to strive, seek and overcome as is written so many times- in fact by doing these things one would be showing a lack of faith in the "completed" work of Christ on their behalf.

5. No need to fear God- God is our buddy now. His Son shields His eyes from our true condition.

6. What holiness?- holiness is reduced to just being on the winning team. Holiness now has to put up with sin...a sinful holiness!!! Can you say freedom?????

7. The race of faith and attaining Christ- Just another Pauline delusion that negates that Jesus did it all already. This is about saving human flesh after all.

8- Humility- If you have it, then flaunt it. Humility is for losers. That is what true evangelism entails..... making others envious of the immunity over sin and the rewards you get...for NOTHING. Who else but a god come come up with this stuff....??? Why doesn't everybody just believe? It's so easy!!! But hurry because this is a time limited offer. Come on down!!!

In fact heaven looks more like America through these destructive doctrines that seek to make the will of men felt over the plain meaning of scripture. Did heaven undergo a revolution and a declaration of independence so that God puts up with a sinful holiness now? But there has been a revolt in heaven...an independence movement to stop God from destroying that which is sinful...and elevating such rebellious ones to heaven. And God seems impotent to do anything about it...at least for now.

Epi, we do not fight sin to become saved or to please God; when Jesus died He took ALL our sins for ALL time to the Cross --- He did all of the fighting, His sacrifice was sufficient and complete.

When Scripture says "humble yourselves" (James4:10, 1Pet6:5, Matt18:3-4), when it says "consider yourselves dead to sin but alive to God through Jesus, stop submitting yourselves to sin" (Rom6), when it says "do not walk after the lusts of the flesh or you must die" (Rom8:12-14), these things are only the CONSEQUENCES of drawing close to God in intimate fellowship. The battle over our sins and our flesh was already won, from atop the Cross! If we draw near to HIM then His victory becomes OURS!

Yes you're right that obedience and works and striving and seeking and holiness and reverence and humility are all important -- but we do not focus on those things, except as the measure of how much we are IN CHRIST.

See 2Pet1:5-11, our fruits are the MEASURE of our salvation, not the cause! It's the same in 2Cor13:5! And in Gal5:19-23!

Jesus said "you will know them by their fruits --- no good tree produces bad fruit, no bad tree produces good fruit." (Matt7:16-18)

So when places like Rom2:4-8 says we'll be judged according to our DEEDS, deeds are the measure of our salvation, not the cause! It's the same in Rev20:13!

No one is saved by good deeds, and none are condemned by evil deeds; but good deeds (and holiness, and obedience, and humility, and all the rest) are the DEMONSTRATION of a heart which IS saved! And wicked deeds are the demonstration of a heart that was NOT saved!

Betchya' we are more in agreement than not!

episkopos
Oct 29th 2013, 03:50 PM
Epi, we do not fight sin to become saved or to please God; when Jesus died He took ALL our sins for ALL time to the Cross --- He did all of the fighting, His sacrifice was sufficient and complete.

I never said that we fight against sin...


When Scripture says "humble yourselves" (James4:10, 1Pet6:5, Matt18:3-4), when it says "consider yourselves dead to sin but alive to God through Jesus, stop submitting yourselves to sin" (Rom6), when it says "do not walk after the lusts of the flesh or you must die" (Rom8:12-14), these things are only the CONSEQUENCES of drawing close to God in intimate fellowship. The battle over our sins and our flesh was already won, from atop the Cross! If we draw near to HIM then His victory becomes OURS!

Our victory is already in Christ. Yes.


Yes you're right that obedience and works and striving and seeking and holiness and reverence and humility are all important -- but we do not focus on those things, except as the measure of how much we are IN CHRIST.


...and sin shows us that we are walking in our own strength.


See 2Pet1:5-11, our fruits are the MEASURE of our salvation, not the cause! It's the same in 2Cor13:5! And in Gal5:19-23!

Of course...why do you think I think otherwise?


Jesus said "you will know them by their fruits --- no good tree produces bad fruit, no bad tree produces good fruit." (Matt7:16-18)

So when places like Rom2:4-8 says we'll be judged according to our DEEDS, deeds are the measure of our salvation, not the cause! It's the same in Rev20:13!


sure

No one is saved by good deeds, and none are condemned by evil deeds; but good deeds (and holiness, and obedience, and humility, and all the rest) are the DEMONSTRATION of a heart which IS saved! And wicked deeds are the demonstration of a heart that was NOT saved!

Not always...you are trying to make an eternal salvation only possible in the deepest holiness. But you neglect the simple righteous things that save the righteous...even a cup of cold water. So your partial understanding of truth about holiness (which is biblical) is causing you to condemn the righteous (which is warned against in the bible). You still think all fruit is only apples...


Betchya' we are more in agreement than not!

I agree with you about holiness....but you still don't see what righteousness is.

Gadgeteer
Oct 29th 2013, 03:53 PM
Episkopos, I agree with all of this. I place it under the heading of Are We Seeking God to Repent and Become Like Christ or Not? Those who are not seeking repentance and Christlikeness in this lifetime are not doing so well in the Lordship category, unless they have already come to be Christlike.

But you point to the person who is either not saved to begin with or who has never matured much or who is apostasizing. I believe most Christians I have met in the world are in the middle category, very unknowledgeable and very immature in Christ.

But I believe some people can be very faithful with what they have, though it be in some amount of ignorance.

---=Edited Point=---

Those who do not engage God and grow in Him, so as to not remain immature, are at risk of making it by the skin of their teeth, ... if that.I think it's far more dangerous than that. Philippians tells us "He who began a good work in you will bring it to completion" --- can we make passages like 1Cor3:15 ("if a man's works are burned up he (still) will be saved") an OVERTURNING of Jesus' words in Matt7:16-18, that we are KNOWN by our fruits and no GOOD (saved!) tree produces bad fruit/works?

No!

1Cor3:15 has to mean that our salvation is the consequence of bad-works-being-burned CAUSING us to turn closer to Christ!!! It's the same in 1Cor5:5 --- that must connect with 1Tim1:20, that it causes maturity in Christ!

If we are NOT growing in Him and maturing, then we are rejecting Christ!!!


---=Further Edited Point=---

Whenever the weakness in our doctrine and teaching is exposed by the Spirit, as here, the question is always what to do about it. Go on a campaign to alert pastors and teachers? Reach the masses via a book or radio or TV campaign? Change the mind of a reader of BibleForum (nearly impossible)? Pray about it and keep proclaiming it in every venue you have?

Then, there is the question of what the hearers should do. Change their doctrine? Change the way they talk? Change their attitude? Change their behavior? ... Just admit that they are wrong, repent, seek forgiveness, and try to do better next time?
What we do here is to hold up our understandings against each other, and against Scripture. Nothing we have should be so cherished that it must be kept even if conflicting of Scripture.


---=A Final Edited Point=---

Perhaps it is the entire approach to God which is the problem here. Perhaps we just need a better slogan, to upgrade the "Not a Religion, But a Relationship" slogan which actually helped me to understand what Christianity was, as a species, when i came to the Lord out of academia at age 30.

Nice. And much more than "relationship", it is a fellowship (1Jn1:3).

An indwelt fellowship of love! 1Jn4:16, Gal2:20!!!

We either belong to Him body soul and spirit, or not at all!!!

Gadgeteer
Oct 29th 2013, 03:58 PM
not what we were discussing. Epi teaches we only abide in Christ when we are sinless. What's sad is many that give props to episkopos' abide posts really don't agree, but that's what happens when we invent our own language to describe doctrine.

See if you agree with what I posted to Dan just above about sin and fellowship/salvation; betting we agree!

:-)

Noeb
Oct 29th 2013, 04:03 PM
The bible teaches that we are sinless when we abide in Christ. Christ is the only source of a victory over sin. That's why He is called the Saviour.Thats right. As long as I believe I am sinless. Unfortunately you have your own personal definition of abide.

Oregongrown
Oct 29th 2013, 04:03 PM
We don't jump in and out of a saved status. That status thing is an invention of men. We do come in and out of the presence of God with the salvation provision being either taken up or else rejected albeit temporarily in many cases. God even takes away His presence at times so that we can learn to cry out...ABBA Father.


One should never judge a thing before the time. If somebody wants so much to know his status at judgment...then let patience have it's perfect work. God will judge all on that day. Until then we all run the race of faith.

I agree that god does not have us in and out of salvation. I do wonder whether God just remains silent, or literally is out of our presence though because of the verses on Him being omnipresent. I'm more inclined to go with His silence. His silence does make me cry out to Him, and yes, I have said daddy (my term) but was He gone, or just waiting there for me to "get" hold of what He wants, or is asking of me.

Just some thoughts, denise, a sister in Christ

Oregongrown
Oct 29th 2013, 04:07 PM
Thats right. As long as I believe I am sinless. Unfortunately you have your own personal definition of abide.

But wait, this made me think of the verse that says the bible is not for any, private interpretation:

2 Peter 1:20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation,[a]

denise, a sister in Christ

Oregongrown
Oct 29th 2013, 04:11 PM
But wait, this made me think of the verse that says the bible is not for any, private interpretation:

2 Peter 1:20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation,[a]

denise, a sister in Christ

OOps total apologies, I was speaking of someone that has their own personal definition of abide, I read it wrong Noeb, forgive me. denise, a sister in Christ

Gadgeteer
Oct 29th 2013, 04:11 PM
Hi Gadgeteer

Thank you but no, I will not consider the link.The entire letter of Hebrews, chapter by chapter, is warning against "falling from salvation". Especially chapters 2, 3, 4, 6, 10, 12 and 13. If we discuss one verse from one chapter and try to make it "OSAS", is it reasonable to avoid the rest?


Verse 26 in Heb. is being misinterpreted. For a person to go on willfully sinning after hearing the Truth and claiming to be saved would mean they were never saved in the first place.Again, it's not valid to focus on one verse and dismiss the rest of the letter. In chapter 3 we're warned not to harden our hearts, to be careful lest our hearts be hardened by deceitful sin to falling away from God. This is the same warning as chapter ten's "if WE continue in sin" (if we turn back to sin and away from God!).

No, it does not mean "never-saved-in-the-first-place" --- the writer (likely Paul, though some believe Luke) includes HIMSELF in the argument.

If WE.


The key is "willfully sin." A born again Christian can not sin willfully without there being a conviction by the Holy Spirit.That's true. But what does chapter 12 (verses 7-9) say about "born-again"? We who are born-again, can become UNBORN.


Remember what Paul said about his struggle with sin?Romans chapter seven is a problem, the war that follows chapter six's "born-again new sinless nature". Chapter eight is the SOLUTION to chapter seven's problem.


Have you ever willfully sinned? I would dare to say that most every Christian that ever lived has willfully sinned. A new Christian most definitely has willfully sinned wouldn't you say?There is a Universe of difference between "practicing" (as Heb10:26 asserts "CONTINUE sinning willfully"), and "occasional but walk in repentance".


The reason I know this verse and others that have been offered here in support of your claims that salvation can be lost is because if they were true, it would completely contradict MANY other verses saying that we can't.Share any of them and we'll come to agree they do not teach "unfallible salvation".

Pick one, or all.


Many of those verses have been given here and are too plain and need no bending or twisting to make them say anything other than what they mean. The security of the true believer is all over the bible you only have to open your eyes and see it. Take John 10:28 for example. How can that be misinterpreted to mean anything other than what it says? It is the words of Jesus Himself!Simple --- "harpazo", means SEIZE/REMOVE FORCIBLY.

"No ONE can FORCE you from His hand."

Does that allow us to throw away Heb3:12-14, that we can become hardened by deceitful sin to falling away from GOD? No! That wouldn't be some ONE (else!) forcing us away --- would it?


If you want to continue to try to argue this just to prove you are right, be my guest. I already know what the real message of salvation is because He showed it to me, not you.In other words, "you already KNOW the answers and are not open to anything I would say".


I pray that He will show you and others here as well. Blessings


Thank you but no, I will not consider the link.

God will not show you what you're not open to receive. If you click the link you'll find that Hebrews chapter 2 is about "falling from salvation. So is chapter 3. And chapter 4. And chapter 6. And chapter 10. And chapter 12. And chapter 13. But you "already know the real message" and are not interested in what Hebrews says.

I don't mean to be disrespectful or insulting; I am being patient with someone who says "I already know". I wish you would support that statement with Scripture verses.

episkopos
Oct 29th 2013, 04:11 PM
Thats right. As long as I believe I am sinless. Unfortunately you have your own personal definition of abide.


You believe you are sinless although you sin? Positionally sinless?

You can't just imagine yourself to abide in someone. You can't abide in Napoleon although crazy people have claimed this. Positionally in Napoleon?

But we don't just claim to abide in someone the way a crazy person says he abides in an historic figure.

It is HUMANLY impossible to abide in another person. So then people will bring in all kinds of crazy theories about how this is done. You say you claim to abide and that means you do...in your opinion. You claim a positional righteousness that only you can attest to. But a positional righteousness is actually an actual self-righteousness...in our reality.

But those who truly abide in Christ are seen by unbelievers as saints because of the works that are plainly seen as coming from heaven. So let the unbelievers testify as to who abides in Christ...and not someone who has an active imagination...or worse.

cuban
Oct 29th 2013, 04:19 PM
not what we were discussing. Epi teaches we only abide in Christ when we are sinless. What's sad is many that give props to episkopos' abide posts really don't agree, but that's what happens when we invent our own language to describe doctrine.

I'm kind of green to the forums, but if I may intercede here. :)

I don't believe the above in bold is accurate from what I have read of him. But I feel it would be more exact to say the opposite.
We are only free from sin when we are abiding in Christ, because there is no sin in Him.
That is, in Him and through Him, we now have the privilege AND ability of choosing Not to willfully sin.

I would also like to add, that 1 John 1:8 references Gnostic heresies that deny the very existence of sin and the need for a savior.
Therefore, I don't believe it is sound to utilize these verses for the purposes of somehow invalidating the reality of the power we possess when we are abiding in Christ Jesus.
Abiding in Him, we CAN walk Like Him.

It disturbs me that we as Christians cannot come to accept the totality of what has been accomplished on the Cross. I also understand that the LORD works with us all at varying degrees of sanctification, but God is not mocked.
We should take a good look at the verses prior: (emphasis mine)

1 John 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and we walk in darkness, we lie and are not practicing the truth.
1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of His Son Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin.

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. <---Gnosticism

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous that He may forgive us the sins, and may cleanse us from all unrighteousness. <---Those who practice sin are sinners indeed.
1 John 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His Word is not in us. <---For All have sinned and have fallen short of God's glory.

Just my two rusty pennies.
God bless.

keck553
Oct 29th 2013, 04:22 PM
Hebrews-

"4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen[c] away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. 7 Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. 8 But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned."


One who professes faith in Christ but still knowingly performs works for the devil is double-minded at best, or outright rebellious at worse. How dare we crucify Christ over and over again to please our carnal flesh. He who does this should be ashamed of themselves. Jesus is not our whipping boy we can take to the cross every time we feel like fulfilling the desires of our flesh.

HE IS GOD.

Gadgeteer
Oct 29th 2013, 04:30 PM
I never said that we fight against sin...That's good.


Our victory is already in Christ. Yes.:-)


...and sin shows us that we are walking in our own strength.


See 2Pet1:5-11, our fruits are the MEASURE of our salvation, not the cause! It's the same in 2Cor13:5! And in Gal5:19-23! Of course...why do you think I think otherwise?Just making things clear. :-)


Not always...you are trying to make an eternal salvation only possible in the deepest holiness. But you neglect the simple righteous things that save the righteous...even a cup of cold water.But, Epi, THINGS NEVER save ANYONE! Salvation is "in Christ, and Christ in us" --- if we sin, Jesus will not participate in sin --- all sin is turning AWAY FROM Jesus!


So your partial understanding of truth about holiness (which is biblical) is causing you to condemn the righteous (which is warned against in the bible). You still think all fruit is only apples...
"Let no one deceive you, he who practices righteousness IS righteous even as HE is righteous ...he who practices sin is of the devil!" 1Jn3:7-8

There is no such thing as a righteous saved person, who, even temporarily, practices sin!


I agree with you about holiness....but you still don't see what righteousness is.

I have 1Jn3, as cited above. He who practices righteousness is righteous; he who practices sin is unrighteous. Do you have something different?

Gadgeteer
Oct 29th 2013, 04:36 PM
I'm kind of green to the forums, but if I may intercede here. :)

I don't believe the above in bold is accurate from what I have read of him. But I feel it would be more exact to say the opposite.
We are only free from sin when we are abiding in Christ, because there is no sin in Him.
That is, in Him and through Him, we now have the privilege AND ability of choosing Not to willfully sin.

I would also like to add, that 1 John 1:8 references Gnostic heresies that deny the very existence of sin and the need for a savior. The whole letter is an opposition to Gnosticism. What I quoted from chapter 3 is clear. He who practices sin is of the devil, he who practices righteousness is of God.


Therefore, I don't believe it is sound to utilize these verses for the purposes of somehow invalidating the reality of the power we possess when we are abiding in Christ Jesus.
Abiding in Him, we CAN walk Like Him.And that's the issue --- is "abiding" our choice, and is it a constant choice? Daily?


It disturbs me that we as Christians cannot come to accept the totality of what has been accomplished on the Cross. I also understand that the LORD works with us all at varying degrees of sanctification, but God is not mocked.
We should take a good look at the verses prior: (emphasis mine)

1 John 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and we walk in darkness, we lie and are not practicing the truth.
1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of His Son Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin.

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. <---Gnosticism

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous that He may forgive us the sins, and may cleanse us from all unrighteousness. <---Those who practice sin are sinners indeed.
1 John 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His Word is not in us. <---For All have sinned and have fallen short of God's glory.

Just my two rusty pennies.
God bless.

Rusty pennies! Very SHINY pennies from where I'm at --- an excellent post!

Welcome to the forums btw, you ARE A BLESSING to us!!!

:-)

episkopos
Oct 29th 2013, 04:39 PM
But, Epi, THINGS NEVER save ANYONE! Salvation is "in Christ, and Christ in us" --- if we sin, Jesus will not participate in sin --- all sin is turning AWAY FROM Jesus!

The present salvation provision is exactly as you describe. But don't confuse holiness today with a future judgment by works for all men. It can be like you are so focused in the distance with your binoculars that you don't see that you are slowly sinking in quicksand. You cannot judge the world with your doctrinal stance. Leave that to God. YOU...follow the lord. And stop judging.



"Let no one deceive you, he who practices righteousness IS righteous even as HE is righteous ...he who practices sin is of the devil!" 1Jn3:7-8

There is no such thing as a righteous saved person, who, even temporarily, practices sin!


You are wrong. The righteous indeed sin....but God is merciful. The righteous are scarcely saved. The saints are abundantly saved.



I have 1Jn3, as cited above. He who practices righteousness is righteous; he who practices sin is unrighteous. Do you have something different?

It amazes me that the bible can be twisted so. We have this same argument concerning the "practicing" of sin for a person who abides in Christ. Do you practice sin? Do you ever sin?

Of course the righteous sin at times...they are human. But they indeed practice righteousness. Otherwise God would not call them righteous.

But don't confuse this with the present abiding in Christ....where there is no sin at all.

Abiding in Christ means that these will become the future bride of Christ. The righteous are invited as guests to the festivities. But you would have no guests at all...everyone alive would be the bride!!! In your view...

Eyelog
Oct 29th 2013, 04:46 PM
There is no such thing as a righteous saved person, who, even temporarily, practices sin! ... I have 1Jn3, as cited above. He who practices righteousness is righteous; he who practices sin is unrighteous. Do you have something different?

Hi, Gadgeteer. It is truly reassuring to have you on board in a discussion like this one, much as I greatly value the stalwart participation of Mailmandan. I am honored to be able to converse with the likes of you folks on this matter.

The problem with so many of our pronouncements is that it is very difficult to get the precise truth into words, and to simultaneously communicate it with precision to others. We all come from our various perspectives on these deeper matters. In one sense, they ought to be threshold matters for the new believer. In another sense, it takes a careful study and balancing of the spiritual principles. Those who are doctrinaire find it even harder to recognize the subtleties being spoken of here.

I was tempted to respond to you that one who practices sin is not necessarily (a) not being saved nor (b) all that far from God. For, the Spirit will show us our iniquities at deeper and more superficial levels. The question is how will we respond to what He is saying. But even the person who does not seem to be able to come to repentance for a time is not necessarily completely out of fellowship with God. Even a pattern of sin is not necessarily enough to make the perseverant fall away altogether. It might be, if the person in fact does fall away from the faith and stops seeking God for repentance. But discovering our iniquity and even feeling powerless to change it does not equate with a total loss of fellowship with God. Again, he who seeks finds.

I am not concerned with that "loss of salvation" threshold. Only those who don't plan to do anything about their iniquity look for such answers -- and those who think too much. I am concerned with how we overcome and become like Jesus as much as He will allow in this lifetime. : )

keck553
Oct 29th 2013, 05:08 PM
Those are sound words eyelog, and I understand what you are saying. My concern is that new Christians hear some teachings and think it is ok to continue a carnal lifestyle, and lose hold of the victory God has promised them. It is a miserable life to live on the fence, I am here to tell you. I can not even count the blessings I have tossed into the wind because of my own adherence to false cotton candy teachings.

"3 For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4 They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths."

Noeb
Oct 29th 2013, 05:33 PM
OOps total apologies, I was speaking of someone that has their own personal definition of abide, I read it wrong Noeb, forgive me. denise, a sister in Christ
Whoooo.... You scared me for a minute. No prob Sis.

cuban
Oct 29th 2013, 05:35 PM
The whole letter is an opposition to Gnosticism. What I quoted from chapter 3 is clear. He who practices sin is of the devil, he who practices righteousness is of God.

Amen.



And that's the issue --- is "abiding" our choice, and is it a constant choice? Daily?


Triple Amen. Are we Abiding in Him is the question! Because if not... (1 John 1:6)



Rusty pennies! Very SHINY pennies from where I'm at --- an excellent post!

Welcome to the forums btw, you ARE A BLESSING to us!!!

:-)

Aawww Gadgeteer... you shouldn't have. I'm almost blushing! :lol:

Oregongrown
Oct 29th 2013, 05:39 PM
a thought came to mind about new believers, and Jesus teachings which we know the whole bible is The Word of God. I love how Jesus taught those 3 years, and He was speaking to new believers, at least the first time He met them, they weren't oldtimers right? I could be wrong, missing something. He taught with Grace and Truth, it says He was full of Grace and Truth:
John 1:14
14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

I think if we can follow Jesus lead, witnessing in grace and Truth, then we won't need to be concerned about new believers, and old believers that may need Truth as well. I love how He used parables, and I do understand that He used them because He didn't want "some" to understand what He was talking about.

Matthew 13:10-17 in context (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2013&version=NKJV)

11 He answered and said to them, “Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.

I guess what I wanted to point out, what came to me, what how well Jesus parables can be used in teaching people. I mean some won't hear, but I don't they are meant to, just like those in the bible. But those that are will understand.

Noeb
Oct 29th 2013, 05:40 PM
I don't believe the above in bold is accurate from what I have read of him.

He just said it again. Has 100+ times. He has it backwards and I have been pointing it out for years. Instead of believing we overcome sin because we abide, he thinks we abide because we overcome sin.

episkopos
Oct 29th 2013, 07:06 PM
He just said it again. Has 100+ times. He has it backwards and I have been pointing it out for years. Instead of believing we overcome sin because we abide, he thinks we abide because we overcome sin.

I said that the earth is round not flat. Noeb..you claim that we abide because we overcome sin...I have never claimed that. I have always maintained that we need to abide in Christ in order to partake of His righteousness.

Eyelog
Oct 29th 2013, 08:12 PM
Those are sound words eyelog, and I understand what you are saying. My concern is that new Christians hear some teachings and think it is ok to continue a carnal lifestyle, and lose hold of the victory God has promised them. It is a miserable life to live on the fence, I am here to tell you. I can not even count the blessings I have tossed into the wind because of my own adherence to false cotton candy teachings.

"3 For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4 They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths."

Hi, Keck553. I appreciate your input into these issues as well. : )

So, if the fear is that the convert will remain inert, why can't some hear what Episkopos is espousing here? All this fear of a salvation by works really betrays what is sometimes called a 'hyper-grace' mentality. Name-calling is shorthand, and it might not explain how one thinks very well. But it is true that the church is suffering from a sort of 'works-phobia.'

Oregongrown
Oct 29th 2013, 08:47 PM
I said that the earth is round not flat. Noeb..you claim that we abide because we overcome sin...I have never claimed that. I have always maintained that we need to abide in Christ in order to partake of His righteousness.

Hey, that's a nice photo, it is so much easier to beat someone up when you have a better idea who they are:lol: Wait, that's not what I meant, what I meant was that your picture is nice, and I think a pic of our real self (physically) can make it more like communicating face to face.

Noeb
Oct 30th 2013, 03:13 AM
You believe you are sinless although you sin? Positionally sinless? Jesus did not die for your sin? Scripture says IF I sin, and I agree I have sinned, I am cleansed. Do you not believe this?



You can't just imagine yourself to abide in someone. You can't abide in Napoleon although crazy people have claimed this. Positionally in Napoleon?

But we don't just claim to abide in someone the way a crazy person says he abides in an historic figure.

It is HUMANLY impossible to abide in another person. So then people will bring in all kinds of crazy theories about how this is done.agree



You say you claim to abide and that means you doI have NEVER said such a thing. This is you making your assumptions about those that do not hold your doctrine. You really need to get a hold of that.



You claim a positional righteousness that only you can attest to.I am counted righteous because I believe (positional) Christ and have fruit to prove it (experience).

Noeb
Oct 30th 2013, 03:35 AM
I said that the earth is round not flat. Noeb..you claim that we abide because we overcome sin...I have never claimed that. I have always maintained that we need to abide in Christ in order to partake of His righteousness.Thanks for the correction! What I was trying to communicate regarded this statement of yours.....

"The bible teaches that we are sinless when we abide in Christ."

We know from previous discussions you believe when we sin we are not in him. Yet you have never produced one verse to support this claim, and how could you do the impossible? We do however have John...

1Jn 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1Jn 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

.....telling us that we can know we are in him because we keep his word and that those that claim to be in him should do the same. It does not say if you sin you are not in him. The Apostles wrote to and prayed for those in Christ and they were not sinless.

Gadgeteer
Oct 30th 2013, 04:58 AM
The present salvation provision is exactly as you describe. But don't confuse holiness today with a future judgment by works for all men. It can be like you are so focused in the distance with your binoculars that you don't see that you are slowly sinking in quicksand. You cannot judge the world with your doctrinal stance. Leave that to God. YOU...follow the lord. And stop judging. Judging is the power of righteousness. "Do not judge by appearance only, but judge with righteous judgment". Jn7:24. "The righteous man judges ALL thins and is he himself judged by no one." 1Cor2:15.


You are wrong. The righteous indeed sin....but God is merciful. The righteous are scarcely saved. The saints are abundantly saved. Why do you see a difference between THE RIGHTEOUS, and SAINTS?

What's the difference?


It amazes me that the bible can be twisted so. We have this same argument concerning the "practicing" of sin for a person who abides in Christ. Do you practice sin? Do you ever sin? Sin yes; practice no.


Of course the righteous sin at times...they are human. But they indeed practice righteousness. Otherwise God would not call them righteous. So which are they --- "righteous", or "saints"?

http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/fragend/confused-smiley-007.gif


But don't confuse this with the present abiding in Christ....where there is no sin at all. Don't confuse what with what???


Abiding in Christ means that these will become the future bride of Christ. The righteous are invited as guests to the festivities. But you would have no guests at all...everyone alive would be the bride!!! In your view...

Zero sense; only those who are righteous saints (the "saved elect") are guests at the wedding feast.

mailmandan
Oct 30th 2013, 11:28 AM
Epi, we do not fight sin to become saved or to please God; when Jesus died He took ALL our sins for ALL time to the Cross --- He did all of the fighting, His sacrifice was sufficient and complete.

When Scripture says "humble yourselves" (James4:10, 1Pet6:5, Matt18:3-4), when it says "consider yourselves dead to sin but alive to God through Jesus, stop submitting yourselves to sin" (Rom6), when it says "do not walk after the lusts of the flesh or you must die" (Rom8:12-14), these things are only the CONSEQUENCES of drawing close to God in intimate fellowship. The battle over our sins and our flesh was already won, from atop the Cross! If we draw near to HIM then His victory becomes OURS!

Yes you're right that obedience and works and striving and seeking and holiness and reverence and humility are all important -- but we do not focus on those things, except as the measure of how much we are IN CHRIST.

See 2Pet1:5-11, our fruits are the MEASURE of our salvation, not the cause! It's the same in 2Cor13:5! And in Gal5:19-23!

Jesus said "you will know them by their fruits --- no good tree produces bad fruit, no bad tree produces good fruit." (Matt7:16-18)

So when places like Rom2:4-8 says we'll be judged according to our DEEDS, deeds are the measure of our salvation, not the cause! It's the same in Rev20:13!

No one is saved by good deeds, and none are condemned by evil deeds; but good deeds (and holiness, and obedience, and humility, and all the rest) are the DEMONSTRATION of a heart which IS saved! And wicked deeds are the demonstration of a heart that was NOT saved!

Betchya' we are more in agreement than not!

Amen! Excellent post! :thumbsup:

mailmandan
Oct 30th 2013, 12:15 PM
This idea about a permanent saved status is so evil that one can no longer be trained by God who DOES allow us in and out of His intimate fellowship. This is for training. The devil has immunized his people against growth in Christ...and many Christians are even led to believe as they do. If possible even the elect could be deceived...

So in the end, what do you believe will be the determining factor of who will be saved and who will not be saved? Belief or unbelief or reached entire sanctification in this lifetime or did not reach entire sanctification in this lifetime? From beginning to end, does Christ save us through faith based on His finished work of redemption or is it ALSO based on our performance during our lifetime? Is our performance the measure of our salvation or the cause?


Those who ridicule God and the ones He is training because of the way He chooses to show us His ways...are twice removed from God.

That sounds familiar. For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ (Jude 1:4). These are spots in your love feasts, while they feast with you without fear, serving only themselves. They are clouds without water, carried about by the winds; late autumn trees without fruit, twice dead, pulled up by the roots (vs. 12). These are sensual persons, who cause divisions, not having the Spirit (vs. 19).

Eyelog
Oct 30th 2013, 12:40 PM
Is our performance the measure of our salvation or the cause?

Mailmandan, what does the measure of one's salvation mean? How saved they are?

TBM 11
Oct 30th 2013, 12:43 PM
So in the end, what do you believe will be the determining factor of who will be saved and who will not be saved? Belief or unbelief or reached entire sanctification in this lifetime or did not reach entire sanctification in this lifetime? From beginning to end, does Christ save us through faith based on His finished work of redemption or is it ALSO based on our performance during our lifetime? Is our performance the measure of our salvation or the cause?



That sounds familiar. For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ (Jude 1:4). These are spots in your love feasts, while they feast with you without fear, serving only themselves. They are clouds without water, carried about by the winds; late autumn trees without fruit, twice dead, pulled up by the roots (vs. 12). These are sensual persons, who cause divisions, not having the Spirit (vs. 19).

Amen Dan! Don't think it could have been said better! If people will only start looking at these posts showing the word of God seriously, dropping their own fleshly opinions and see what God has to show them in their spirit, they will see the light on this.

episkopos
Oct 30th 2013, 01:19 PM
So in the end, what do you believe will be the determining factor of who will be saved and who will not be saved? Belief or unbelief or reached entire sanctification in this lifetime or did not reach entire sanctification in this lifetime?

As I have said on many occasions, the bible says we will all be judged by our works. Find any verse you can on being judged according to our beliefs. One factor is ...have we ever fully surrendered to Christ and ever walked in the Spirit? But even here we will be judged by what happened after that. Those who have experienced more will be held to that account. So none of us has the least idea whether we will triumph in the end...UNLESS we learn to walk in the salvation provision of Christ in a continuous way. Then we can truly know that we have run legally and effectively.





From beginning to end, does Christ save us through faith based on His finished work of redemption or is it ALSO based on our performance during our lifetime? Is our performance the measure of our salvation or the cause?


We show that we know the Lord by walking in the same way He did. Jesus Christ is our means of attaining to the Father. So we walk in His power to please a holy God. After a life of such a walk we can expect a reward from the Lord and a share in His kingdom. That is what we strive for...to have the faith in this life to enter into His power and discipleship "program".

mailmandan
Oct 30th 2013, 01:23 PM
Mailmandan, what does the measure of one's salvation mean? How saved they are?

Measure the validity of one's salvation. Demonstrative evidence.

keck553
Oct 30th 2013, 01:45 PM
unbelief = not acting on your belief

Primary cause of not acting = fear of failure or lust of the flesh

Gadgeteer
Oct 30th 2013, 05:30 PM
As I have said on many occasions, the bible says we will all be judged by our works. Find any verse you can on being judged according to our beliefs.Let's look at a "deeds" passage:


Rom2:4) "Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?
5) But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6) who will render to each person according to his deeds;
7) to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8) but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation."

Now let's look at two other passages:


John3:18) "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

1Jn5:10) "The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son.
11) And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
12) He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
13) These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life."

John3 and 1Jn5 connect "eternal life" with only belief, and nothing else. And they connect "judgment/condemnation" with only unbelief, and nothing else.

How does Romans2 fit in with John3 and 1Jn5? Isn't Romans2 saying that we're saved (or condemned) by DEEDS?

No.

The Romans2 passage begins with repentance, which is inseparable from belief. "Belief" is the fuel that drives one TO seek glory and honor and immortality through doing good deeds, and unbelief equally causes one to pursue sin. And that is the harmony between all three passages.

We can add in many other passages, like Eph2:8 --- we are not saved by works but by grace through FAITH/BELIEF. Not works. Salvation is having the Son --- he WHO has the Son HAS eternal life.

Not "he who does good deeds"!!! But he who does not believe, has not the Son, and has not eternal life.

Deeds are the evidence of belief or unbelief.


One factor is ...have we ever fully surrendered to Christ and ever walked in the Spirit? But even here we will be judged by what happened after that. Those who have experienced more will be held to that account. So none of us has the least idea whether we will triumph in the end...UNLESS we learn to walk in the salvation provision of Christ in a continuous way. Then we can truly know that we have run legally and effectively.There is no such thing as "partially-surrendered/partially-saved". One is either "in Christ", or "in sin".



From beginning to end, does Christ save us through faith based on His finished work of redemption or is it ALSO based on our performance during our lifetime? Is our performance the measure of our salvation or the cause? We show that we know the Lord by walking in the same way He did. Jesus Christ is our means of attaining to the Father. So we walk in His power to please a holy God. After a life of such a walk we can expect a reward from the Lord and a share in His kingdom. That is what we strive for...to have the faith in this life to enter into His power and discipleship "program".Do we do good deeds to HAVE faith? Or does faith CAUSE our good deeds? This seems to be the question.

What is salvation, Epi? Eternal life is knowing God and Jesus (John17:3). It is an indwelt fellowship of love. (1Jn1:3, 1Jn4:16.) It is to be fully indwelt and controlled by Jesus and the Spirit (Gal2:20, Eph5:18); so that it is GOD who does our good works through us! (Philip1:13!)

Therefore our focus is NOT on "doing good works" to complete our salvation, but on drawing near to Him that He does our good works THROUGH us.

Make sense?

episkopos
Oct 30th 2013, 05:48 PM
Let's look at a "deeds" passage:


Rom2:4) "Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?
5) But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6) who will render to each person according to his deeds;
7) to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8) but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation."

Now let's look at two other passages:


John3:18) "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

1Jn5:10) "The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son.
11) And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
12) He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
13) These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life."

John3 and 1Jn5 connect "eternal life" with only belief, and nothing else. And they connect "judgment/condemnation" with only unbelief, and nothing else.

How does Romans2 fit in with John3 and 1Jn5? Isn't Romans2 saying that we're saved (or condemned) by DEEDS?




One verse is showing how we are presently saved from the power of sin and enter into fellowship with God....which is by faith. And the other is about being judged at judgment day for a whole life that has been lived.

Why can't you see the difference between faith for now and deeds for our future justification? Faith is for now!!! Imagine Jesus asking who has faith that Jesus can save them...on judgment day!!!! Faith is how we are to walk today...not at judgment. On that day faith is of no use....we are being judged for what we have done with our lives.


The Romans2 passage begins with repentance, which is in separable from belief. "Belief" is the fuel that drives one TO seek glory and honor and immortality through doing good deeds, and unbelief equally causes one to pursue sin. And that is the harmony between all three passages.

We can add in many other passages, like Eph2:8 --- we are not saved by works but by grace through FAITH/BELIEF. Not works. Salvation is having the Son --- he WHO has the Son HAS eternal life.

At this time...yes! Now is the time for faith.


Not "he who does good deeds"!!! But he who does not believe, has not the Son, and has not eternal life.

Not at this time no...but he will be judged in the future by a merciful God according to what He knew. Don't confuse the new resurrection life we can walk in today...with a survival from death in the future.


Deeds are the evidence of belief or unbelief.


That is why unbelievers today can be justified later. Their deeds SHOW their belief.




There is no such thing as "partially-surrendered/partially-saved". One is either "in Christ", or "in sin".


This is your black and white Calvinism showing. It is simply not true.


Do we do good deeds to HAVE faith? Or does faith CAUSE our good deeds? This seems to be the question.

This is your confusion showing. No rational person thinks that way.


What is salvation, Epi? Eternal life is knowing God and Jesus (John17:3). It is an indwelt fellowship of love. (1Jn1:3, 1Jn4:16.) It is to be fully indwelt and controlled by Jesus and the Spirit (Gal2:20, Eph5:18); so that it is GOD who does our good works through us! (Philip1:13!)

Amen! That is what salvation is..today!!!


Therefore our focus is NOT on "doing good works" to complete our salvation, but on drawing near to Him that He does our good works THROUGH us.

Make sense?

Again your argument is from an unreal grasp of the issue. That is like saying that he who doesn't vote republican must be either gay or a communist. Agree?

You have an extremist view that seeks to make mercy of no count. Are you from the south part of the US?

Gadgeteer
Oct 30th 2013, 06:01 PM
This idea about a permanent saved status is so evil that one can no longer be trained by God who DOES allow us in and out of His intimate fellowship. This is for training. The devil has immunized his people against growth in Christ...and many Christians are even led to believe as they do. If possible even the elect could be deceived...So in the end, what do you believe will be the determining factor of who will be saved and who will not be saved? Belief or unbelief or reached entire sanctification in this lifetime or did not reach entire sanctification in this lifetime? From beginning to end, does Christ save us through faith based on His finished work of redemption or is it ALSO based on our performance during our lifetime? Is our performance the measure of our salvation or the cause? Here is a discussion between three people, with three not-all-the-same views. I also believe that "unfallible salvation" is a repetition of what the serpent told Eve in the Garden, "You won't really die". (And Paul tells us we are at the same risk of deception and death as Eve was --- 2Cor11:3.)

Dan and I have agreement on salvation being by grace through faith, continuing-in-sin not acceptable. That we must abide in Christ and seek His presence and being filled with the Spirit to overcome sin; this is more than enough for fellowship between brothers, who have certainty of both being with Christ when He returns.

Epi and I have agreement on "OSNAS" --- I'm not sure we agree on whether works are causal to salvation, or consequential.



Those who ridicule God and the ones He is training because of the way He chooses to show us His ways...are twice removed from God. That sounds familiar. For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ (Jude 1:4). These are spots in your love feasts, while they feast with you without fear, serving only themselves. They are clouds without water, carried about by the winds; late autumn trees without fruit, twice dead, pulled up by the roots (vs. 12). These are sensual persons, who cause divisions, not having the Spirit (vs. 19).

But what's our focus? Pursuing good deeds, or pursuing GOD and letting the good deeds take care of themselves?

Paying attention to what kind of deeds we exhibit is not wrong, it is very Scriptural; but Paul says in 2Cor13:5 that it allows us to determine whether we are "in Christ", or outside. We do not do the good deeds to be "in Christ" --- we do them when we ARE in Him.

Thus, in 2Pet1:5-11 we are to be diligent to make our salvation steadfast, by examining ourselves to see if we have moral excellence, self control, perseverance, godliness, kindness and love. Possessing these qualities is something all three of us will agree on.

:-)

episkopos
Oct 30th 2013, 06:07 PM
Measure the validity of one's salvation. Demonstrative evidence.

Agreed! ...............

Gadgeteer
Oct 30th 2013, 06:42 PM
One verse is showing how we are presently saved from the power of sin and enter into fellowship with God....which is by faith. And the other is about being judged at judgment day for a whole life that has been lived. No, they're all in harmony. Salvation is by God's grace (Jesus paid the whole price on the Cross), received by our faith; works are the evidence of Him in us, He does good works through us.


Why can't you see the difference between faith for now and deeds for our future justification? Faith is for now!!! Imagine Jesus asking who has faith that Jesus can save them...on judgment day!!!! Faith is how we are to walk today...not at judgment. On that day faith is of no use....we are being judged for what we have done with our lives. I think you're confused by what James said:


James2:22) "You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;
24) You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

James seems to be saying that our justification, at least in part, is through works. But how does that fit with 1Cor6:11?


"Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you WERE JUSTIFIED in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God."

We were justified, past tense done deal --- in Jesus' name only. What did James mean? Was James teaching something OPPOSITE to what Paul taught? James teaches that the kind of faith which produces no good deeds, is dead (unsaved --- James2:17).

James2:23 says that Abraham's belief was RECKONED as righteousness. Thus, his works bore out his justification --- no works, no justification; justification, therefore works! Begin with the presumption that Scripture has no contradictions, therefore we cannot embrace ONE passage (that is, one understanding OF a passage) in violation of another.

And stop creating new positions like "righteous" being different from "saints".


At this time...yes! Now is the time for faith.He who has Jesus is saved --- period, black and white.


Not at this time no...but he will be judged in the future by a merciful God according to what He knew. Don't confuse the new resurrection life we can walk in today...with a survival from death in the future.Nowhere is salvation tied to (consequence of) works. Only "having-Jesus" (which is BELIEVING/RECEIVING) is the delineation between "saved", and "lost".

Works follow that; saved have good works, unsaved do not. Matt7:16-18!


That is why unbelievers today can be justified later. Their deeds SHOW their belief. There is no such thing as an unbeliever who will ever be justified --- justification is BY JESUS' NAME ONLY!



There is no such thing as "partially-surrendered/partially-saved". One is either "in Christ", or "in sin". This is your black and white Calvinism showing. It is simply not true. Wow --- I've never been called a Calvinist before! :eek:

I stand by what I said; one either has Jesus (and has eternal life), or goes too far and does not abide in the teachings so as to no longer have Jesus or the Father. 1Jn5:11-13, 2Jn1:7-9!



Do we do good deeds to HAVE faith? Or does faith CAUSE our good deeds? This seems to be the question This is your confusion showing. No rational person thinks that way. Thinks WHAT way? Scripture states that faith leads to good works. What was happening in James2:22-24 is that Abraham's belief came FIRST, and then THROUGH his positive faith-borne-actions, he did the works. He did not obey God about sacrificing Isaac TO HAVE faith, he did it BECAUSE OF faith.


Amen! That is what salvation is..today!!! Now wait --- do you agree that God does our good works THROUGH us? They're not our works then, are they!


Again your argument is from an unreal grasp of the issue. That is like saying that he who doesn't vote republican must be either gay or a communist. Agree?No --- the whole issue of being saved, is that HE does regeneration TO us. Through our faith yes, but HIS regeneration, we cleanse nothing.

Everything a man does is because of what he is; this includes "what proceeds out of the mouth". "Regeneration" (by faith!) changes what we ARE, therefore what we do. We don't do good works to be regenerated, but because we are regenerated. When Paul says in Eph4:22-24 "lay aside the old sinful man, put on the new righteous man, be renewed in the spirit of your mind", it IS the same as James' words "draw near to God and He will draw near to us."

One perspective is that we do good works as part OF our justification, and it leads to faith and salvation.

Another perspective is that we were fully justified by Jesus, received by faith --- and works are the natural consequence of Christ in us.

Both perspectives cannot be true, only one is Scriptural.

Please see Rom5:17-19 --- justification CAME to the exact same men as condemnation came to, but it is received as we receive God's grace and His gift or righteousness.


You have an extremist view that seeks to make mercy of no count. Are you from the south part of the US?It's up to you to show my view is "extremist", and not Scriptural.

What say you?

episkopos
Oct 30th 2013, 07:12 PM
[QUOTE=Gadgeteer;3064454]No, they're all in harmony. Salvation is by God's grace (Jesus paid the whole price on the Cross), received by our faith; works are the evidence of Him in us, He does good works through us.

See what I mean...the only fruit possible is apples...there are no oranges possible.


I think you're confused by what James said:
James2:22) "You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;
24) You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.


Not at all. I see that works show forth where we are coming from. That is why I don't judge all fruit to be apples.


James seems to be saying that our justification, at least in part, is through works. But how does that fit with 1Cor6:11?

We don't come to Christ through works...but by faith. But then we are to work through the Spirit to take this world for Christ and His kingdom. The side benefit is that we get to live.



"Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you WERE JUSTIFIED in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God."

We were justified, past tense done deal --- in Jesus' name only. What did James mean? Was James teaching something OPPOSITE to what Paul taught? James teaches that the kind of faith which produces no good deeds, is dead (unsaved --- James2:17).

James2:23 says that Abraham's belief was RECKONED as righteousness. Thus, his works bore out his justification --- no works, no justification; justification, therefore works! Begin with the presumption that Scripture has no contradictions, therefore we cannot embrace ONE passage (that is, one understanding OF a passage) in violation of another.

And stop creating new positions like "righteous" being different from "saints".



Read the bible and take notes this time... ;)


He who has Jesus is saved --- period, black and white.


In this life...yes! (tired)


Nowhere is salvation tied to (consequence of) works. Only "having-Jesus" (which is BELIEVING/RECEIVING) is the delineation between "saved", and "lost".
At this time, yes! But judgment comes from God...not you.


Works follow that; saved have good works, unsaved do not. Matt7:16-18!

Eternal works can only be done through the Spirit. But good works can be done by anyone.... WWOD (What would Oprah Do?) ;) (or is she too black for your black and white approach?)


There is no such thing as an unbeliever who will ever be justified --- justification is BY JESUS' NAME ONLY!


For now, indeed. But you will have to teach God your theories on judgment day.


Wow --- I've never been called a Calvinist before! :eek:

I have identified you as such before. You just forget...in one ear...


I stand by what I said; one either has Jesus (and has eternal life), or goes too far and does not abide in the teachings so as to no longer have Jesus or the Father. 1Jn5:11-13, 2Jn1:7-9!

I know that. And that is true of entering into a salvation provision while we yet live.


Thinks WHAT way? Scripture states that faith leads to good works. What was happening in James2:22-24 is that Abraham's belief came FIRST, and then THROUGH his positive faith-borne-actions, he did the works. He did not obey God about sacrificing Isaac TO HAVE faith, he did it BECAUSE OF faith.


You are going religious on me...



Now wait --- do you agree that God does our good works THROUGH us? They're not our works then, are they!

They are from heaven if they are done in Christ.


No --- the whole issue of being saved, is that HE does regeneration TO us. Through our faith yes, but HIS regeneration, we cleanse nothing.

Yes, but you are going Calvinistic again...


Everything a man does is because of what he is; this includes "what proceeds out of the mouth". "Regeneration" (by faith!) changes what we ARE, therefore what we do.

Yes! A good statement. He takes sinners and makes them righteous.



We don't do good works to be regenerated, but because we are regenerated.


Where is your logic here? This is where I see you have been indoctrinated.




When Paul says in Eph4:22-24 "lay aside the old sinful man, put on the new righteous man, be renewed in the spirit of your mind", it IS the same as James' words "draw near to God and He will draw near to us."

sure


One perspective is that we do good works as part OF our justification, and it leads to faith and salvation.

Indoctrination argument...


Another perspective is that we were fully justified by Jesus, received by faith --- and works are the natural consequence of Christ in us.

True...but also can be spoken from an indoctrination. You are making formulas...


Both perspectives cannot be true, only one is Scriptural.

A strawman argument. If the moon is made of dust then it cannot be made of cheese? Agree?


Please see Rom5:17-19 --- justification CAME to the exact same men as condemnation came to, but it is received as we receive God's grace and His gift or righteousness.

It's up to you to show my view is "extremist", and not Scriptural.


I don't need to...your extremism makes you not understand other views than your own. You cannot reconcile all the verses of the bible either. That is how we know that we are promoting half-truths. In your regard I would say that you understand holiness. But you pit holiness against righteousness...a common mistake among the indoctrinated.

Christianity is not a religion that gives us the right to judge others. Consider what Jesus said about that. And include that as a major aspect of Christianity.

Neanias
Oct 30th 2013, 09:57 PM
The error of the Pharisees was not to follow the Mosaic law. After all Jesus came to fulfill the law and the Prophets. Peter also had not until after Pentecost eaten anything unclean. It is even said of Zechariah and Elizabeth, who walked according to the old covenant, that they were blameless before God.

The error was not that they attempted to obey the command of God as best as they could. Their error was that they took this said obedience as a means of justifying themselves before God and rejected the leading of the Spirit of God. Instead of humbly obeying God, and allowing him to afterwards fulfill his promises, they started obeying, and when it was enough obedience in their estimation, they justified themselves.

In the same way, Christians today have took the words of Jesus, started to obey in the best of their understanding, and judged the obedience to be sufficient, and continued by attributing all the promises attached to this to themselves.

Both have fallen short here: these are the sons of God, those who are led of the Spirit.

We are not called to a one time obedience according to our own understanding of the text which then allows us to consider ourselves justified, but rather a continual obedience humbly seeking the leading of the Spirit to guide us into the depths of God.

Matthew 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

Men have made a doctrine whereby they are saved, before it was by an external following of the Mosaic law, and today by an external confession that Jesus is the Christ, but God has approved neither of those. In both cases, men seek to make their own standard of what is acceptable obedience. Those who enter the Kingdom, they are the sons of God, because they follow the Spirit. We are called to truly be in Him, and in Him is no sin.

Neanias
Oct 30th 2013, 10:01 PM
The apostle Peter, after himself receiving revelation of the Spirit that Jesus is the Christ, and confessing thus, needed to be 'converted' again.

It is after making such great confession of faith that the beloved brother stumbled and fell, denying Christ 3 times, and going back to his fishing. He did indeed return when the Lord came to him. But that was a choice he had to make.

Jesus said 'he who denies me before men, I will deny before the Father'. I can only imagine those words were ringing in Peter's ears, after the cross. Peter took the warnings seriously.

mailmandan
Oct 31st 2013, 11:01 AM
As I have said on many occasions, the bible says we will all be judged by our works. Find any verse you can on being judged according to our beliefs.

He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God (John 3:18 NAS). Not judged to be condemned.


One factor is ...have we ever fully surrendered to Christ and ever walked in the Spirit? But even here we will be judged by what happened after that. Those who have experienced more will be held to that account. So none of us has the least idea whether we will triumph in the end...UNLESS we learn to walk in the salvation provision of Christ in a continuous way. Then we can truly know that we have run legally and effectively.

What will judged according to our works determine for believers? The validity of one's faith or also rewards and loss of rewards? 1 Corinthians 3:14-15 - If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. What about for unbelievers? The validity of one's lack of faith or also degrees of punishment in hell? Matthew 23:14 - Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you devour widows' houses, and for a pretense you make long prayers; therefore you will receive greater condemnation.


We show that we know the Lord by walking in the same way He did. Jesus Christ is our means of attaining to the Father. So we walk in His power to please a holy God. After a life of such a walk we can expect a reward from the Lord and a share in His kingdom. That is what we strive for...to have the faith in this life to enter into His power and discipleship "program".

What is this reward from the Lord? Will some believers be great in the kingdom of heaven and other believers will be least?

Noeb
Oct 31st 2013, 01:07 PM
We are not called to a one time obedience
Who here has claimed this is all there is to it?

Gadgeteer
Oct 31st 2013, 02:41 PM
He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God (John 3:18 NAS). Not judged to be condemned.Condemnation is only for unbelief. Granted "belief" must be properly defined --- James2:19 says MERE belief (head-knowledge) is useless; only communion-belief that gives evidence of itself by good works.


What will judged according to our works determine for believers? The validity of one's faith or also rewards and loss of rewards? 1 Corinthians 3:14-15 - If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.It is an important point for us to understand what Paul was teaching. Jesus said "no good tree (saved person!) can produce bad fruit (works!)". Will good works be "burned-up"? NO! So what must be the teaching here? That one can do bad works and they'll be overlooked? That's not consistent with Matt7:16-18.

What is the outcome of men watching their "bad works being burned up"? There must be a lesson.

That's why 1Pet1:6-7 offers itself to me to complete the lesson:


"In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials,
so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ"

James says (1:12) that when one has passed the test (trials!) he will receive the crown of life. Trials refine us like fire refines gold; the fire that burns up "wood/hay/stubble works", teaches us to do better works. That is, leads us to better fellowship with Christ SO THAT better works result!

That has to be what Paul meant in 1Cor3 --- a change must occur so that we align with Matt7:16-18, so that we will be "good trees producing good fruit that does not burn up"!


What about for unbelievers? The validity of one's lack of faith or also degrees of punishment in hell? Matthew 23:14 - Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you devour widows' houses, and for a pretense you make long prayers; therefore you will receive greater condemnation.A greater sentence does not mean a greater Hell. Look at Matt11:21-24 --- those who stood before Jesus and His miracles but disbelieved in the FACE of what they SAW, will be judged more harshly than the ancients who had not the luxury of having seen His miracles (a foundational refutation of "Sovereign Predestined Salvation"). But will both end up in different Hells? No! Just as one court-case can result in greater sentencing for a mass-murderer than another court-case where only one person was killed, the end is the same.

There is only one Hell. The desire never to go there is a valid beginning of salvation, as it begins by fear, but leads to discovery of Jesus' love and His joy.

John15:11!!!!!


What is this reward from the Lord? Will some believers be great in the kingdom of heaven and other believers will be least?

I dunno about that; it has always seemed to me that the very principle of seeking self-centered-aggrandizement --- the pursuit of heavenly material status --- is "anathema" to the selfless surrender to Him that I have understood from Scriptural teaching. When Jesus said "store up for yourself treasure in Heaven", is He talking about a selfish pursuit of mansions and crowns and thrones? Will we sit around in royal robes beaming, "Look at ME, all!"? Why wouldn't our focus be on complete reverence to JESUS?

No, "store up treasures in Heaven", must be consistent with the SELFLESS SUBMISSION and SURRENDER that our communion of love with Him has always been; completely the other direction from seeking personal crowns and scepters. Our approach is always "we must decrease that He increases". So "store up treasure" must be the opposite of seeking shiny baubles, whether they lie on EARTH or in Heaven. It is to seek HIM only, and surrender our own selfishness.

episkopos
Oct 31st 2013, 02:52 PM
He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God (John 3:18 NAS). Not judged to be condemned.

Does that passage give you the right to ignore this passage?

Luk_6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

Don't be an extremist judgmental person because you think certain passages seem to suggest you can. The key to a greater wisdom is to gather more fish in your arms without letting the ones you previously held get away from you.


What will judged according to our works determine for believers? The validity of one's faith or also rewards and loss of rewards? 1 Corinthians 3:14-15 - If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. What about for unbelievers? The validity of one's lack of faith or also degrees of punishment in hell? Matthew 23:14 - Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you devour widows' houses, and for a pretense you make long prayers; therefore you will receive greater condemnation.


Stay away from blanket categories. You may find that you are included in a category that you won't like.




What is this reward from the Lord? Will some believers be great in the kingdom of heaven and other believers will be least?

Yes. But we have no idea what we will be no matter what any indoctrination has convinced us of. Christianity is best walked in through a humble and lowly viewpoint of oneself. We avoid a hard and extreme judgment on ourselves by avoiding to treat others with less than the same care we have for ourselves.

Curtis
Oct 31st 2013, 03:12 PM
Let's look at a "deeds" passage:


Rom2:4) "Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?
5) But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6) who will render to each person according to his deeds;
7) to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8) but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation."

Now let's look at two other passages:


John3:18) "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

1Jn5:10) "The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son.
11) And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
12) He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
13) These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life."

John3 and 1Jn5 connect "eternal life" with only belief, and nothing else. And they connect "judgment/condemnation" with only unbelief, and nothing else.

How does Romans2 fit in with John3 and 1Jn5? Isn't Romans2 saying that we're saved (or condemned) by DEEDS?

No.

The Romans2 passage begins with repentance, which is inseparable from belief. "Belief" is the fuel that drives one TO seek glory and honor and immortality through doing good deeds, and unbelief equally causes one to pursue sin. And that is the harmony between all three passages.

We can add in many other passages, like Eph2:8 --- we are not saved by works but by grace through FAITH/BELIEF. Not works. Salvation is having the Son --- he WHO has the Son HAS eternal life.

Not "he who does good deeds"!!! But he who does not believe, has not the Son, and has not eternal life.

Deeds are the evidence of belief or unbelief.

There is no such thing as "partially-surrendered/partially-saved". One is either "in Christ", or "in sin".

Do we do good deeds to HAVE faith? Or does faith CAUSE our good deeds? This seems to be the question.

What is salvation, Epi? Eternal life is knowing God and Jesus (John17:3). It is an indwelt fellowship of love. (1Jn1:3, 1Jn4:16.) It is to be fully indwelt and controlled by Jesus and the Spirit (Gal2:20, Eph5:18); so that it is GOD who does our good works through us! (Philip1:13!)

Therefore our focus is NOT on "doing good works" to complete our salvation, but on drawing near to Him that He does our good works THROUGH us.

Make sense?

I actually agree with you on this one. Thank you Jesus!

Eyelog
Oct 31st 2013, 03:24 PM
I actually agree with you on this one. Thank you Jesus!

Mailmandan and Episkopos are engaged in an OSAS discussion, a death grip vortex leading down the Reichenbach Falls.

keck553
Oct 31st 2013, 03:30 PM
Mailmandan and Episkopos are engaged in an OSAS discussion, a death grip vortex leading down the Reichenbach Falls.

I really wish I knew what this means....

episkopos
Oct 31st 2013, 03:49 PM
I really wish I knew what this means....

..it sounds ominous...

keck553
Oct 31st 2013, 04:25 PM
..it sounds ominous...

Well, I do know this -

"Neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

And no one's opinion is going to change that. Alleluyah

Eyelog
Oct 31st 2013, 06:40 PM
..it sounds ominous...

I'm not saying which of you is Moriarty and which is Holmes, ... but the result is the same. ... investigation going ... where?

Eyelog
Oct 31st 2013, 09:52 PM
So in the end, what do you believe will be the determining factor of who will be saved and who will not be saved? Belief or unbelief or reached entire sanctification in this lifetime or did not reach entire sanctification in this lifetime? From beginning to end, does Christ save us through faith based on His finished work of redemption or is it ALSO based on our performance during our lifetime? Is our performance the measure of our salvation or the cause?

That sounds familiar. For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ (Jude 1:4). These are spots in your love feasts, while they feast with you without fear, serving only themselves. They are clouds without water, carried about by the winds; late autumn trees without fruit, twice dead, pulled up by the roots (vs. 12). These are sensual persons, who cause divisions, not having the Spirit (vs. 19).

Hi, Mailmandan. I think you'd agree grace means unmerited favor. It does not mean faith without works.

Whether I work or not is irrelevant for getting saved, as my ability to work is a gift as well. So, if I accept Christ's righteousness as my own, I could singlehandedly rebuild the twin towers by myself as a demonstration of my faith to be saved, and I would still be saved.

So the whole issue is whether one accepts Christ's righteousness as their own rather than trying to have a righteousness of their own. For, I don't even have to lift a finger to earn salvation and I will fail the test of acceptance of Christ's righteousness as my own (if I am trying to be justified without the righteousness of Christ). As such, whether I work is irrelevant to failure, but it is relevant to demonstrate my faith.

After being born again, I can show I have no faith by failing to seek to do the works He has prepared in advance for us to do, by failing to do the righteous works of the saints. I can also continue in sin. In either case, I have denied Christ's lordship in my life. Can I live a life of that and still be saved in the end?

Gadgeteer
Oct 31st 2013, 11:56 PM
Well, I do know this -

"Neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

And no one's opinion is going to change that. Alleluyah

But does God love and desire salvation even for those who perish? Yes.

Look again at 2Tim2:11-13 --- if we died and endure, then we shall live and reign with Him. (But) if we deny Him and are faithless, He will deny us before God, and though we perish He remains faithful for He cannot deny Himself --- He is love, and love never ends; nothing will stop Him from loving people and desiring their salvation (Ezk18:23), though He is grieved by those who choose to perish.

Gadgeteer
Nov 1st 2013, 12:07 AM
I'm not saying which of you is Moriarty and which is Holmes, ... but the result is the same. ... investigation going ... where?

Ahhh -- a "Sherlock Holmes" fan. Didjya' see "Young Sherlock Holmes"? The animated pastries were creepy.

Gadgeteer
Nov 1st 2013, 12:08 AM
I actually agree with you on this one. Thank you Jesus!

:thumbsup: (15 characters)

Noeb
Nov 1st 2013, 04:21 AM
So, if I accept Christ's righteousness as my ownStill have not seen any verses to this end.

mailmandan
Nov 1st 2013, 11:18 AM
Does that passage give you the right to ignore this passage?Luk_6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

John 3:18 says what it says. He who believes in Him is not judged/condemned, but he who does not believe is judged/condemned already.. Thus saith the Lord. We should not ignore it. How did I ignore Luke 6:37 by quoting John 3:18? Who am I judging or condemning for agreeing with the Lord in John 3:18?


Don't be an extremist judgmental person because you think certain passages seem to suggest you can. The key to a greater wisdom is to gather more fish in your arms without letting the ones you previously held get away from you.

I have no idea how you came up with this conclusion. :confused


Stay away from blanket categories. You may find that you are included in a category that you won't like.

What blanket category? I merely asked you some simple questions. What will judged according to our works determine for believers? The validity of one's faith or also rewards and loss of rewards? Also, what about for unbelievers? The validity of one's lack of faith or also degrees of punishment in hell? Do you believe that 1 Corinthians 3:14-15 and Matthew 23:14 have absolutely nothing to do with the answers to my questions?

mailmandan
Nov 1st 2013, 11:34 AM
After being born again, I can show I have no faith by failing to seek to do the works He has prepared in advance for us to do, by failing to do the righteous works of the saints. I can also continue in sin. In either case, I have denied Christ's lordship in my life. Can I live a life of that and still be saved in the end?

Hi Eyelog,

What use is it, my brethren, if someone "says he has faith" but has no works (James 2:14). This is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith. What kind of faith is James describing here? A dead faith (vs. 17). To continue in sin or the practice of sin as a habit would not be the fruit of being born of God - 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 - "the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God..such were some of you." Galatians 5:19-21 - "those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God." 1 John 3:8-10 - "the one who practices sin is of the devil..No one who is born of God practices sin."

episkopos
Nov 1st 2013, 11:48 AM
Hi Eyelog,

What use is it, my brethren, if someone "says he has faith" but has no works (James 2:14). This is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith. What kind of faith is James describing here? A dead faith (vs. 17). To continue in sin or the practice of sin as a habit would not be the fruit of being born of God - 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 - "the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God..such were some of you." Galatians 5:19-21 - "those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God." 1 John 3:8-10 - "the one who practices sin is of the devil..No one who is born of God practices sin."

Someone who tries to live up to his commitment in Christ by doing the best he can...will indeed have an improved performance over what he normally would walk in. But for righteousness' sake he should admit that he is just doing what a man can do in his own strength. Then there is no lie in him. Jesus says....say on that day...we are just unprofitable servants.


But there is a higher calling to be a saint and sit with Jesus on His throne as His bride. Here, a human means is insufficient. To reign with Christ we need to abide in His full grace provision today. We must overcome sin in the same way that Jesus did and do the same quality of works...the perfect works that we were regenerated to do whose origin is from heaven.

Gadgeteer
Nov 1st 2013, 12:34 PM
Someone who tries to live up to his commitment in Christ by doing the best he can...will indeed have an improved performance over what he normally would walk in. But for righteousness' sake he should admit that he is just doing what a man can do in his own strength. Then there is no lie in him. Jesus says....say on that day...we are just unprofitable servants.


But there is a higher calling to be a saint and sit with Jesus on His throne as His bride. Here, a human means is insufficient. To reign with Christ we need to abide in His full grace provision today. We must overcome sin in the same way that Jesus did and do the same quality of works...the perfect works that we were regenerated to do whose origin is from heaven.

So --- again, what's the difference from a "saved-saint" who will sit with Jesus on His throne (where is this in Scripture?), and a "saved-righteous" who manifests bad works (where is THIS in Scripture?)?

Noeb
Nov 1st 2013, 01:22 PM
See if you agree with what I posted to Dan just above about sin and fellowship/salvation; betting we agree!

:-)I never figured out what post/s you were talking about.

Eyelog
Nov 1st 2013, 01:37 PM
Hi Eyelog,

What use is it, my brethren, if someone "says he has faith" but has no works (James 2:14). This is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith. What kind of faith is James describing here? A dead faith (vs. 17). To continue in sin or the practice of sin as a habit would not be the fruit of being born of God - 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 - "the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God..such were some of you." Galatians 5:19-21 - "those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God." 1 John 3:8-10 - "the one who practices sin is of the devil..No one who is born of God practices sin."

So, you would say the person with no fruit is not saved?

But u have argued it took no fruit to get saved. So, fruitless, they were yet saved to begin with. Now, after a life of fruitlessness they are not saved. They got saved, then were fruitless, and then were not saved.

That is a NOSAS position.

Noeb
Nov 1st 2013, 02:34 PM
Takes faith to get saved.....

Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is ........ faith,

Eyelog
Nov 1st 2013, 02:45 PM
Someone who tries to live up to his commitment in Christ by doing the best he can...will indeed have an improved performance over what he normally would walk in. But for righteousness' sake he should admit that he is just doing what a man can do in his own strength. Then there is no lie in him. Jesus says....say on that day...we are just unprofitable servants.


But there is a higher calling to be a saint and sit with Jesus on His throne as His bride. Here, a human means is insufficient. To reign with Christ we need to abide in His full grace provision today. We must overcome sin in the same way that Jesus did and do the same quality of works...the perfect works that we were regenerated to do whose origin is from heaven.

Episkopos, my good friend, this teaching that the regenerate human cannot be fruitful in a way that (a) pleases the Lord, (b) will be rewarded, (c) advances the kingdom, (d) will result in ruling and reigning with Christ, and (e) will cause him/her to receive every other good thing in heaven as the Lord recompenses, unless he operates by the power of the Spirit is (1) not in Scripture and (2) a heretical lie that encourages the very things you preach against: e.g., listless believers who do not produce any fruits.

I'd explain in more detail here, but as I have already argued that your point is non-scriptural, first, what support for it will you give? For, I am more than ready to demonstrate with Scripture that a born again believer can do (a) through (e) without the power of the Spirit. The better question is, how consistently can he/she do so?

---=Edited Point=---

I believe you are hung up on the idea that the only way to put off the old man, or what belongs to it, i.e., the only way to overcome the sin nature, the world and lies of Satan, is to walk supernaturally in the Spirit. But I think I can demonstrate that is false as well.

---=Edited Point=---

Also, I think you may be equating abiding in Christ with walking supernaturally in the Spirit, but there are lesser ways to abide with the result of both fellowship and obedience, remaining in His love ...

Gadgeteer
Nov 2nd 2013, 02:31 AM
I never figured out what post/s you were talking about.

I think it was post 180 (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php/251503-Imputed-Righteousness?p=3063849#post3063849).

You said,
Epi teaches we only abide in Christ when we are sinless. What's sad is many that give props to episkopos' abide posts really don't agree, but that's what happens when we invent our own language to describe doctrine.

And I was wondering if you and I agree that every sin compromises fellowship with Christ. Salvation being "indwelt fellowship of love", we are fully indwelt by the Son and the Spirit, committing sin therefore would make them participate in that sin. And they won't. So every sin is a "turning away from God" --- hence the admonition in 1Jn, first that we are not sinless (1Jn1:8), then that if we confess our sins and repent (turn BACK to Him!) He is faithful and just to forgive our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

I know you and I agree that no one is "licensed to walk in sin". So the ability to repent and be forgiven does not lessen the crime of the sin; our heart never develops a "casual tolerance for sin", but rather we walk in repentance earnestly desiring to NOT sin the next time. And are willing to take whatever steps He deems necessary to not sin that next time.

RE "Epi" --- I perceive your point is that Epi is teaching sinlessness leads to abiding, while you and I perceive that abiding leads to sinlessness --- as a goal, while we live we struggle with corrupt flesh. The closer we are to Him, the more we abide, and the further we are from sin...

mailmandan
Nov 2nd 2013, 10:53 AM
Condemnation is only for unbelief. Granted "belief" must be properly defined --- James2:19 says MERE belief (head-knowledge) is useless; only communion-belief that gives evidence of itself by good works.

Amen! Well said. :)


It is an important point for us to understand what Paul was teaching. Jesus said "no good tree (saved person!) can produce bad fruit (works!)". Will good works be "burned-up"? NO! So what must be the teaching here? That one can do bad works and they'll be overlooked? That's not consistent with Matt7:16-18.

A good tree (saved person) cannot produce bad fruit (works). Does this mean that saved people NEVER sin at all? A bad tree cannot, with all its efforts, produce good fruit. 1 Corinthians 3:15 - If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire is very clear. Why would our work be burned up? You call that overlooked? What was the motivation behind work that is burned? Does it amount to gold, silver, precious stones OR wood, hay, straw? Matthew 16:27 - For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.


What is the outcome of men watching their "bad works being burned up"? There must be a lesson.

Will the Judgment be about lessons to learn from and change or about each of us being recompensed for deeds done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad? (2 Corinthians 5:10)


That's why 1Pet1:6-7 offers itself to me to complete the lesson:

"In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials, so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ"


The genuineness of our faith tested by fire still does not negate - If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.


James says (1:12) that when one has passed the test (trials!) he will receive the crown of life. Trials refine us like fire refines gold; the fire that burns up "wood/hay/stubble works", teaches us to do better works. That is, leads us to better fellowship with Christ SO THAT better works result!

Passing the test of various trials demonstrates the proof of our faith, but 1 Corinthians 3:13-15 still says - If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. It doesn't say, if any man's work is burned up, he himself will not be saved. At the Judgment, will ALL the works of ALL believers amount to gold, silver, precious stones or will some amount to wood, hay, straw?


That has to be what Paul meant in 1Cor3 --- a change must occur so that we align with Matt7:16-18, so that we will be "good trees producing good fruit that does not burn up"!

1 Corinthians 3:13 - each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it.. Will there still be time to make changes on that Day? So what kind of trees are saved people while they are still in the process of making changes so that they produce only good fruit that does not burn up?


A greater sentence does not mean a greater Hell. Look at Matt11:21-24 --- those who stood before Jesus and His miracles but disbelieved in the FACE of what they SAW, will be judged more harshly than the ancients who had not the luxury of having seen His miracles (a foundational refutation of "Sovereign Predestined Salvation"). But will both end up in different Hells? No! Just as one court-case can result in greater sentencing for a mass-murderer than another court-case where only one person was killed, the end is the same.

I didn't mean different hells. Greater condemnation in the same hell. Greater sentencing for a mass-murderer than another court-case where only one person was killed, the end is the same in the sense that they both end up in prison, but one's sentencing is greater.


There is only one Hell. The desire never to go there is a valid beginning of salvation, as it begins by fear, but leads to discovery of Jesus' love and His joy. John15:11!!!!!

I believe in only one hell, but Jesus did say greater condemnation. If everyone receives the same exact sentencing in hell whether you are Hitler or a garden variety pagen, what is the point of saying greater condemnation?


I dunno about that; it has always seemed to me that the very principle of seeking self-centered-aggrandizement --- the pursuit of heavenly material status --- is "anathema" to the selfless surrender to Him that I have understood from Scriptural teaching. When Jesus said "store up for yourself treasure in Heaven", is He talking about a selfish pursuit of mansions and crowns and thrones? Will we sit around in royal robes beaming, "Look at ME, all!"? Why wouldn't our focus be on complete reverence to JESUS?

I wasn't trying to promote a selfish pursuit of mansions and crowns and thrones in heaven. I was just trying to see where episkopos was coming from. He answered yes.


No, "store up treasures in Heaven", must be consistent with the SELFLESS SUBMISSION and SURRENDER that our communion of love with Him has always been; completely the other direction from seeking personal crowns and scepters. Our approach is always "we must decrease that He increases". So "store up treasure" must be the opposite of seeking shiny baubles, whether they lie on EARTH or in Heaven. It is to seek HIM only, and surrender our own selfishness.

Can't argue with that.

mailmandan
Nov 2nd 2013, 11:00 AM
So, you would say the person with no fruit is not saved?

But u have argued it took no fruit to get saved. So, fruitless, they were yet saved to begin with. Now, after a life of fruitlessness they are not saved. They got saved, then were fruitless, and then were not saved.

That is a NOSAS position.

A life of fruitlessness demonstrates no faith. Faith is the root and works are the fruit of salvation. No fruit at all would demonstrate no root. I never said they got saved then after a life of fruitlessness they are not saved. Fruit is the effect and not the cause of salvation. How much fruit can you produce the very moment you get saved? It takes more than a split second to produce some one hundred, some sixty, some thirty. The evidence of faith is fruit, but not all believers are equally fruitful (Matthew 13:23).