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View Full Version : Was Gods Plan To Give The Law From The Beginning?



TBM 11
Oct 25th 2013, 12:19 PM
We have probably all seen the movie "Ten Commandments." Have you ever studied the scripture on this story? I have read it a couple of times in my life but never really thought much about there might have been some other intention God had on giving the law. I thought it was the plan all along. Exodus 19 tells a different story. Specifically starting with vs 5.
Exodus 19:5
Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be a special treasure to Me above all people; for all the earth is Mine.

This verse shows how God wanted to shower them with blessings! Just as He had been doing for them all the way out of Egypt. What changed?

Exodus 19:8
And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.


This is where God had had enough. They said " All that the LORD hath spoken WE will do." Had they done anything but gripe and complain since leaving bondage in Egypt? Were they ever trusting in God to take care of them?

When I heard this message preached it was the first time I looked at this story that way. I was just wondering if anyone else had ever heard it preached before.

Redeemed by Grace
Oct 25th 2013, 12:26 PM
With God there is no "Plan B", so the simple answer to your question is yes.

keck553
Oct 25th 2013, 01:32 PM
God knows the future.

TBM 11
Oct 25th 2013, 01:54 PM
I agree, God has foreknowledge of everything. That's why I thought it was interesting that His word shows us a different view of how it could have been had it not been for the pride of life. This was not included in scripture by accident. God is making a point in these verses if you look at it closely.

Francis Drake
Oct 25th 2013, 09:29 PM
We have probably all seen the movie "Ten Commandments." Have you ever studied the scripture on this story? I have read it a couple of times in my life but never really thought much about there might have been some other intention God had on giving the law. I thought it was the plan all along. Exodus 19 tells a different story. Specifically starting with vs 5.
Exodus 19:5
Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be a special treasure to Me above all people; for all the earth is Mine.

This verse shows how God wanted to shower them with blessings! Just as He had been doing for them all the way out of Egypt. What changed?

Exodus 19:8
And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.


This is where God had had enough. They said " All that the LORD hath spoken WE will do." Had they done anything but gripe and complain since leaving bondage in Egypt? Were they ever trusting in God to take care of them?

When I heard this message preached it was the first time I looked at this story that way. I was just wondering if anyone else had ever heard it preached before.

Am I stupid or something? I cannot see what point you are making here.
The people answered in the affirmative, even if later on they didn't follow it through.

So what special hidden message do you see in this verse other than what is plain to the eye. What makes you think that at this point in time, God had had enough.

keck553
Oct 25th 2013, 09:38 PM
I agree, God has foreknowledge of everything. That's why I thought it was interesting that His word shows us a different view of how it could have been had it not been for the pride of life. This was not included in scripture by accident. God is making a point in these verses if you look at it closely.

We can engage in hypotheticals to entertain our minds, but God's plan is perfect. God works on our finite plain of understanding, I think we should take Him at His Word.

TBM 11
Oct 25th 2013, 10:37 PM
God performed all kinds of miracles leading Israel out of the bondage of slavery. Then He provided for means of escape from the Egyptian army. He led them by a pillar of cloud by day and a pillar of fire by night. Not one person died nor were they feeble during this exodus from Egypt. He provided for every need even though they were constantly complaining and showing great lack of faith though they had seen Him perform many miracles with their own eyes. Even after they displayed great lack of faith and were disobedient to what He had told them to do along the way, God showed grace on them, and provided for every need.

When they got to the wilderness at Sinai, Moses went up on the mountain and God told Moses what to tell the people. This is found in Exodus 19:5

"Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be a special treasure to Me above all people; for all the earth is Mine."


He had told Moses to tell them to "obey my VOICE and keep My covenant."

vs6 - "And you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation. These are the words which you shall speak to the children of Israel.


When Moses spoke these words to the people they said "all that the Lord has spoken, WE WILL DO."

The Point is, had they ever done anything but gripe, complain, and disobey? It may be better to read the rest from there for yourself. If you do, you will see that Gods attitude toward the people changed tremendously after the people said those words "WE WILL DO." By saying these words they were telling God that they wanted to do it on their own!

The day Moses came down with the commandments 23,000 people died by plague from God and by the sword for breaking the first commandment.

I heard this in a sermon and I know I don't do it justice as he gave a great message on this. But you get the idea. I had never heard it and if you read the whole story you can see it yourself. God withdrew His grace that the people enjoyed, and rather than let them be rulers of the world by just obeying His voice, He dropped the written law on them.

Nick
Oct 26th 2013, 03:38 AM
The Law was actually given from the fall of man and added to. By the days of Noah, we already had most of the 10 commandments. The sacrificial system was in place at least since Cain and Abel.

Francis Drake
Oct 26th 2013, 08:22 AM
We can engage in hypotheticals to entertain our minds, but God's plan is perfect. God works on our finite plain of understanding, I think we should take Him at His Word.

Knowing the end from the beginning, God's plan is always perfect in every aspect. However that doesn't stop mankind putting a spanner in the works, to make God achieve his stated destination via a different route.

Exodus19v5'Now then, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be My own possession among all the peoples, for all the earth is Mine; 6and you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.' These are the words that you shall speak to the sons of Israel." 7So Moses came and called the elders of the people, and set before them all these words which the LORD had commanded him.…


This gives God's desired plan for Israel, they would become a Kingdom of Priests.
Obviously, scripture shows that never happened, as only Levi became the priesthood.

So here we have in Exodus 19v6, God's perfect plan for the priesthood, followed by Israel's foolish modifications. Did God fail? No. He went to PLAN B, which He foreknew would happen.

Thankfully God has Plan "B"s by the planet load, and squillions of Plan Cs to Zs etc.

This is not about God failing, it is about God revealing to man what he desires, even though He knows that carnal man, inspired by Satan, will thwart it repeatedly. The majesty of God is that He will still achieve his stated objective at the end, whilst still permitting man to have freewill.

So yes, God knew that he would need to bring in the Law of Moses from the beginning. But it was always based on the fact that man, in his freewill would rebel. Adam's rebellion in the garden was foreknown but not not preordained. There is a fundamental difference.

Francis Drake
Oct 26th 2013, 08:28 AM
The Law was actually given from the fall of man and added to. By the days of Noah, we already had most of the 10 commandments. The sacrificial system was in place at least since Cain and Abel.

It would be helpful if you gave some references to your claim that the law was given from the fall of man. Yes we know that sacrifice was introduced in the garden when Jesus made the coats of skin for them, but what about the rest of the law.

Francis Drake
Oct 26th 2013, 12:05 PM
God performed all kinds of miracles leading Israel out of the bondage of slavery. Then He provided for means of escape from the Egyptian army. He led them by a pillar of cloud by day and a pillar of fire by night. Not one person died nor were they feeble during this exodus from Egypt. He provided for every need even though they were constantly complaining and showing great lack of faith though they had seen Him perform many miracles with their own eyes. Even after they displayed great lack of faith and were disobedient to what He had told them to do along the way, God showed grace on them, and provided for every need.

When they got to the wilderness at Sinai, Moses went up on the mountain and God told Moses what to tell the people. This is found in Exodus 19:5

"Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be a special treasure to Me above all people; for all the earth is Mine."


He had told Moses to tell them to "obey my VOICE and keep My covenant."

vs6 - "And you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words which you shall speak to the children of Israel.”


When Moses spoke these words to the people they said "all that the Lord has spoken, WE WILL DO."

The Point is, had they ever done anything but gripe, complain, and disobey? It may be better to read the rest from there for yourself. If you do, you will see that Gods attitude toward the people changed tremendously after the people said those words "WE WILL DO." By saying these words they were telling God that they wanted to do it on their own!

The day Moses came down with the commandments 23,000 people died by plague from God and by the sword for breaking the first commandment.

I heard this in a sermon and I know I don't do it justice as he gave a great message on this. But you get the idea. I had never heard it and if you read the whole story you can see it yourself. God withdrew His grace that the people enjoyed, and rather than let them be rulers of the world by just obeying His voice, He dropped the written law on them.

You are building a massive theological stand on one tiny phrase. How else do you expect people to respond when God presents them with instructions?

I suggest you go to an online concordance and entered the phrase "we will do" into the search. You will see how frequently it is used, two of which are below._

Josh1v15until the LORD gives your brothers rest, as He gives you, and they also possess the land which the LORD your God is giving them. Then you shall return to your own land, and possess that which Moses the servant of the LORD gave you beyond the Jordan toward the sunrise." 16They answered Joshua, saying, "All that you have commanded us we will do, and wherever you send us we will go.


Exodus24v7Then he took the book of the covenant and read it in the hearing of the people; and they said, "All that the LORD has spoken we will do, and we will be obedient!" 8So Moses took the blood and sprinkled it on the people, and said, "Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD has made with you in accordance with all these words."

Your whole argument falls down on that simple phrase because if you believe it has a hidden meaning, then you are obliged to insert that hidden meaning everywhere else that phrase is used. ie. you cannot invent a rule of interpretation that applies to one verse alone!

Whoever gave that sermon was just being too clever by half with fancy linguistics. Those israelites responded to a simple statement with a simple statement back. The clear surface meaning is what they meant it to say. There are plenty of other examples where they openly rejected God or his prophets.

TBM 11
Oct 26th 2013, 12:08 PM
Knowing the end from the beginning, God's plan is always perfect in every aspect. However that doesn't stop mankind putting a spanner in the works, to make God achieve his stated destination via a different route.

Exodus19v5'Now then, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be My own possession among all the peoples, for all the earth is Mine; 6and you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.' These are the words that you shall speak to the sons of Israel." 7So Moses came and called the elders of the people, and set before them all these words which the LORD had commanded him.…


This gives God's desired plan for Israel, they would become a Kingdom of Priests.
Obviously, scripture shows that never happened, as only Levi became the priesthood.

So here we have in Exodus 19v6, God's perfect plan for the priesthood, followed by Israel's foolish modifications. Did God fail? No. He went to PLAN B, which He foreknew would happen.

Thankfully God has Plan "B"s by the planet load, and squillions of Plan Cs to Zs etc.

This is not about God failing, it is about God revealing to man what he desires, even though He knows that carnal man, inspired by Satan, will thwart it repeatedly. The majesty of God is that He will still achieve his stated objective at the end, whilst still permitting man to have freewill.

So yes, God knew that he would need to bring in the Law of Moses from the beginning. But it was always based on the fact that man, in his freewill would rebel. Adam's rebellion in the garden was foreknown but not not preordained. There is a fundamental difference.

This is exactly what I wanted to point out. Not that I came up with this on my own. As I already stated I heard this preached in a sermon. But it was the first time I had ever heard it and just wanted to share it here in case others had not heard it. It shows how God only wanted them to trust in Him and not themselves. How we shouldn't let the pride of life hinder us from knowing God. He only wants to bless us, and for us to depend on Him for our needs. Even when we are in difficult times, He is always with us, and provides for those that are His. I got a real blessing from that message that day. I wish I could have done it as well here as it was done when I heard it. Hopefully someone will be blessed in some way from it.

keck553
Oct 26th 2013, 02:44 PM
I don't care much for topical sermons. I like expository teachings based on Scripture teaching Scripture.

It's always much more enlightening to read out than to read in.

Noeb
Oct 26th 2013, 02:46 PM
The Law was actually given from the fall of man and added to. By the days of Noah, we already had most of the 10 commandments. The sacrificial system was in place at least since Cain and Abel.Sin is not counted without law, so Adam and Eve had law before the fall.

TBM 11
Oct 26th 2013, 03:08 PM
Francis Drake, is this not where Gods covenant changed? If so this is not anything that I am trying to build, but something I am commenting on. It is obvious that God has something to show here, just as every other scripture in the bible. The people had been delivered through His grace that was showered on them. None were sick, none died, every need was met. Then everything changed. The preacher that I was listening to thinks that there is a message there. I agree and I shared it. But I am building nothing.

Francis Drake
Oct 26th 2013, 05:04 PM
Francis Drake, is this not where Gods covenant changed? If so this is not anything that I am trying to build, but something I am commenting on. It is obvious that God has something to show here, just as every other scripture in the bible. The people had been delivered through His grace that was showered on them. None were sick, none died, every need was met. Then everything changed. The preacher that I was listening to thinks that there is a message there. I agree and I shared it. But I am building nothing.

Fair enough TBM, but that preacher is plain wrong. There is nothing hidden on their statement, nor does "WE WILL DO" imply anything more than it says on the surface.
Your preacher is inserting into the English something that isn't there, and if he insists it is there, then he must also alter every other occurrence of that phrase to also agree with that method of interpretation. He will soon find it is nonsense.

And, this is not where the covenant changed either. If anything the covenant changed when Moses came down the mountain to witness the rebellion and the golden calf. He asked who amongst them was on the Lord's side, and only Levi came over. It was they alone who acted as the priesthood and executed judgement on the idolaters.

Exodus 32v25Now when Moses saw that the people were out of control-- for Aaron had let them get out of control to be a derision among their enemies-- 26then Moses stood in the gate of the camp, and said, "Whoever is for the LORD, come to me!" And all the sons of Levi gathered together to him. 27He said to them, "Thus says the LORD, the God of Israel, 'Every man of you put his sword upon his thigh, and go back and forth from gate to gate in the camp, and kill every man his brother, and every man his friend, and every man his neighbor.'"…28So the sons of Levi did as Moses instructed, and about three thousand men of the people fell that day. 29Then Moses said, "Dedicate yourselves today to the LORD-- for every man has been against his son and against his brother-- in order that He may bestow a blessing upon you today."

Nick
Oct 27th 2013, 05:20 AM
Sin is not counted without law, so Adam and Eve had law before the fall.

They certainly had work to do but the work was enjoyable unlike the toil it later became.

Nick
Oct 27th 2013, 05:24 AM
It would be helpful if you gave some references to your claim that the law was given from the fall of man. Yes we know that sacrifice was introduced in the garden when Jesus made the coats of skin for them, but what about the rest of the law.

I did. The sacrifices introduced in Genesis with Cain and Abel were expanded on in much greater detail when God gave Moses the Sacrificial system, which was part of the Law along with the moral (10 commandments) and civil law. And here are the Seven Laws of Noah that bear striking resemblance to the 10 Commandments: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Laws_of_Noah

Noeb
Oct 27th 2013, 02:25 PM
They certainly had work to do but the work was enjoyable unlike the toil it later became.I didn't comment on that.

Nick
Oct 27th 2013, 10:19 PM
I didn't comment on that.

My response did not fit your post. In fact, I'm befuddled as to why I responded with that.

Curtis
Oct 27th 2013, 10:41 PM
We have probably all seen the movie "Ten Commandments." Have you ever studied the scripture on this story? I have read it a couple of times in my life but never really thought much about there might have been some other intention God had on giving the law. I thought it was the plan all along. Exodus 19 tells a different story. Specifically starting with vs 5.
Exodus 19:5
Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be a special treasure to Me above all people; for all the earth is Mine.

This verse shows how God wanted to shower them with blessings! Just as He had been doing for them all the way out of Egypt. What changed?

Exodus 19:8
And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.


This is where God had had enough. They said " All that the LORD hath spoken WE will do." Had they done anything but gripe and complain since leaving bondage in Egypt? Were they ever trusting in God to take care of them?

When I heard this message preached it was the first time I looked at this story that way. I was just wondering if anyone else had ever heard it preached before.

Did the Lord know before creation that he would give the law to Moses? Yes he did. The Lord knows everything before it happens. He already knows every thought you will ever have, and every action you will make through out eternity. Was it God's perfect will for the Law to be given. I don't think it was. Gods perfect will would be for God's laws to be en graven in the hearts of his children, and not in stone. We have his laws written on the tablets of our hearts. Even all the animal sacrifices that the Lord set up in the Old Testament was not God's perfect will, but he allowed it.....

Heb 10:7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
Heb 10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;

God took no pleasure in these sacrifices that he him self set up. The only sacrifice he took pleasure in was the perfect sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

TBM 11
Oct 28th 2013, 02:02 AM
Thank you Curtis I agree. I think that was the point that the preacher I heard that day was making. Gods perfect will would have been different. Even though He knew the Law was going to be introduced. I think that is why there was such a dramatic change seen toward the people after the Law was given. There is a divide here. Whether or not it was because of the words the people said, there was still a divide, and God is making that obvious to us as we read through these chapters in Exodus. I believe it shows what He wanted was to have a relationship with the people, and to be their God and have their trust in Him, and only Him. Same as today.