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ISRAEL
Oct 27th 2013, 03:53 PM
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Does The Bible Promise "Heaven"!For the saved
Millions in the Christian-professing world believe they will be raptured to heaven. They sing of "heavenly mansions," our "home up above," and of "going to be with the Lord."
In thousands of funeral ceremonies, clergymen confidently assure bereaved relatives their loved ones are already in heaven, and the belief is indelibly reinforced in an atmosphere of pain and fear of the unknown.

But does the Bible really teach Christians go to heaven when they die?
Does the bible teach that at some point the righteous will go to heaven ?

Proverbs 3:5-7
Oct 27th 2013, 04:27 PM
:bible: some Scriptures describing an afterlife immediately after death (of the carnal/mortal body)...

Luke 23 {NKJV} the day Jesus Christ & the repentant thief both died by crucifixion...
42 Then he said to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.”
43 And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you,today you will be with Me in Paradise.”

Luke 16 {NKJV} when the rich man & Lazarus (the beggar) died...
22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.
23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

Proverbs 3:5-7
Oct 27th 2013, 04:33 PM
:bible: Ecclesiastes 12:7...

Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
{KJV}

Then shall the dust [out of which God made man’s body] return to the earth as it was, and the spirit shall return to God Who gave it.
{AMP}

ISRAEL
Oct 27th 2013, 04:51 PM
Where do Wicked people spirit go ?

ISRAEL
Oct 27th 2013, 04:55 PM
:bible: Ecclesiastes 12:7...

Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
{KJV}

Then shall the dust [out of which God made man’s body] return to the earth as it was, and the spirit shall return to God Who gave it.
{AMP}


John 5
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Proverbs 3:5-7
Oct 27th 2013, 06:43 PM
Where do Wicked people spirit go ?

according to CHRIST'S description (proceeding from Luke 16:23) it's NOT such a nice place

Proverbs 3:5-7
Oct 27th 2013, 07:07 PM
Quote Originally Posted by Proverbs 3:5-7
Ecclesiastes 12:7...

Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
{KJV}

Then shall the dust [out of which God made man’s body] return to the earth as it was, and the spirit shall return to God Who gave it.
{AMP}




John 5
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.



although SOME MAY think these quoted Scriptures SEEM to contradict each other... however; BOTH of these passages actually COINCIDE together...
ESPECIALLY when considering how the following passage RECONCILES IN AGREEMENT with the others...
***key phrase {vs 14} being*** "God WILL BRING WITH HIM, those who sleep in Jesus" = the reason WHY they will rise first {vs 16}...

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
1 Thessalonians 4 {NKJV}

Jade99
Oct 27th 2013, 07:50 PM
according to CHRIST'S description (proceeding from Luke 16:23) it's NOT such a nice place

Don't.....he's trolling. These are basic questions that unbelievers know.

When someone gives an answer to the answer like they already know the answer to the question they just ask, they are testing. IN this particular case, trolling.

Curtis
Oct 27th 2013, 08:44 PM
.

Does The Bible Promise "Heaven"!For the saved
Millions in the Christian-professing world believe they will be raptured to heaven. They sing of "heavenly mansions," our "home up above," and of "going to be with the Lord."
In thousands of funeral ceremonies, clergymen confidently assure bereaved relatives their loved ones are already in heaven, and the belief is indelibly reinforced in an atmosphere of pain and fear of the unknown.

But does the Bible really teach Christians go to heaven when they die?
Does the bible teach that at some point the righteous will go to heaven ?



No, the Bible does not teach saints go to Heaven after they die. When someone becomes born again of the incorruptible seed of the Word of God, they are translated into the Kingdom of God. They are right now sitting on the right hand of God in Christ. This is not some future event. Jesus has already taken us through the veil and into the the very presence of God with out spot or wrinkle and without blemish into the Father sight. When someone dies the only thing that happens is there physical body goes into the ground, and there spirit stays where it was before, in God's presence. The resurrection of the dead is when Christ returns to get our physical bodies. This is why it is called the resurrection of the dead. The word "dead" means "corpse" which means body. Our bodies is what Jesus is coming back for, not our spirits as we are already with him now.

Proverbs 3:5-7
Oct 27th 2013, 08:51 PM
Don't.....he's trolling. These are basic questions that unbelievers know.

When someone gives an answer to the answer like they already know the answer to the question they just ask, they are testing. IN this particular case, trolling.


while I get what you're saying... it didn't SEEM like he already knew :confused IF HE THOUGHT the Scripture he quoted (from John 5, in post # 5) was in contradiction to Ecclesiastes 12, you know? ;)

Proverbs 3:5-7
Oct 27th 2013, 08:55 PM
:bible: some Scriptures describing an afterlife immediately after death (of the carnal/mortal body)...

Luke 23 {NKJV} the day Jesus Christ & the repentant thief both died by crucifixion...
42 Then he said to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.”
43 And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you,today you will be with Me in Paradise.”

Luke 16 {NKJV} when the rich man & Lazarus (the beggar) died...
22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.
23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.



just to clarify :note: BOTH of these Scriptures are quoted Words of Christ Himself

Francis Drake
Oct 27th 2013, 09:14 PM
No, the Bible does not teach saints go to Heaven after they die. When someone becomes born again of the incorruptible seed of the Word of God, they are translated into the Kingdom of God. They are right now sitting on the right hand of God in Christ. This is not some future event. Jesus has already taken us through the veil and into the the very presence of God with out spot or wrinkle and without blemish into the Father sight. When someone dies the only thing that happens is there physical body goes into the ground, and there spirit stays where it was before, in God's presence. The resurrection of the dead is when Christ returns to get our physical bodies. This is why it is called the resurrection of the dead. The word "dead" means "corpse" which means body. Our bodies is what Jesus is coming back for, not our spirits as we are already with him now.


Have you considered all those people who have had near death experiences?

Their stories all agree on the fact that they find themselves as a human spirit, lifted outside their physical body (lying dead in the bed), here on earth, in hospital or wherever the place of death might be.

Apart from a few terrified examples who start to descend, they then start to ascend, usually as if through a tunnel of light whilst being drawn by a sense of pure indescribable love. Frequently they are guided by angels.
They usually arrive at the garden, the paradise of God. There they may meet Jesus and or their relatives who have died before them. Their description of heaven always agrees in all the major amazing details.
Whilst there, they may be told by Jesus, or an angel, that they have to return because it is not their time. Sometimes they are given some sort of grand tour of parts of heaven. Sometimes they are given specific missions to perform when they return.

There are many unrelated writings about these experiences, including Paul's brief mention. If all these people, plus Paul (maybe) ascended upwards from their body towards the heavenlies, it tends to indicate that although we have the legal right of access to the Holy place of God, our spirit man is right now here in our body, until either our body gives up the ghost, literally, or we get called up for a visit like Enoch.

ie. Heaven really is a separate place. Our spirit man has to travels there after our bodily death.

However I also believe that people can instantly find themselves there, as if they have travelled through a time warp, which is probably true also.

Curtis
Oct 27th 2013, 09:31 PM
Have you considered all those people who have had near death experiences?

Their stories all agree on the fact that they find themselves outside their body, here on earth, in hospital or wherever the place of death might be. Apart from a few terrified examples who start to descend, they then start to ascend, usually as if through a tunnel of light whilst being drawn by a sense of pure indescribable love. Frequently they are guided by angels.
They usually arrive at the garden, the paradise of God. There they may meet Jesus and or their relatives who have died before them. Their description of heaven always agrees in all the major amazing details.
Whilst there, they may be told by Jesus, or an angel, that they have to return because it is not their time. Sometimes they are given some sort of grand tour of parts of heaven. Sometimes they are given specific missions to perform when they return.

There are many unrelated writings about these experiences, including Paul's brief mention. If all these people, plus Paul (maybe) ascended upwards from their body towards the heavenlies, it tends to indicate that although we have the legal right of access to the Holy place of God, our spirit man is right now here in our body, until either our body gives up the ghost, LOL, or we get called up for a visit like Enoch.

ie. Heaven really is a separate place. Our spirit man has to travels there after our bodily death.

However I also believe that people can instantly find themselves there, as if they have travelled through a time warp, which is probably true also.

Before we are saved our bodies kept us from coming into in God's presence because flesh and blood can not inherit the Kingdom of God. Once we are saved we become circumcised in putting off the sins of the body of flesh, by the circumcision of Christ....

Col 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

With out this circumcision you would have to wait until after you die to be with Christ. Not now, we have been set free to enter the Holiest by the Blood of Jesus Christ any time our heart so desires. It is all about coming boldly to the throne of grace, by a new and living way in which Christ has paved for us. Most born again Christians do not have a clue about this and they are stilling waiting for this ability to come. It requires faith and understanding to do this. The Apostle tells us that we are not in the flesh but in the Spirit if so be that the Spirit of God dwells in you. If you want to know how to do this study these few scriptures.....

Col 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
Col 3:2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
Col 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

Proverbs 3:5-7
Oct 27th 2013, 10:15 PM
... our spirit man is right now here in our body, until either our body gives up the ghost, literally...



:agree: & can relate to what you're saying... it even reminds me of the Biblical account of Christ's death...

And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.
Luke 23:46 {KJV}

Jade99
Oct 27th 2013, 10:39 PM
while I get what you're saying... it didn't SEEM like he already knew :confused IF HE THOUGHT the Scripture he quoted (from John 5, in post # 5) was in contradiction to Ecclesiastes 12, you know? ;)

I don't know. Just be careful.

ISRAEL
Oct 28th 2013, 02:16 AM
Where do the animal spirit go ? and Why ?

Francis Drake
Oct 28th 2013, 02:07 PM
Before we are saved our bodies kept us from coming into in God's presence because flesh and blood can not inherit the Kingdom of God. Once we are saved we become circumcised in putting off the sins of the body of flesh, by the circumcision of Christ....

Col 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

With out this circumcision you would have to wait until after you die to be with Christ. Not now, we have been set free to enter the Holiest by the Blood of Jesus Christ any time our heart so desires. It is all about coming boldly to the throne of grace, by a new and living way in which Christ has paved for us. Most born again Christians do not have a clue about this and they are stilling waiting for this ability to come. It requires faith and understanding to do this. The Apostle tells us that we are not in the flesh but in the Spirit if so be that the Spirit of God dwells in you. If you want to know how to do this study these few scriptures.....

Col 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
Col 3:2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
Col 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

Not sure why you responded with this, Curtis, as it doesn't address what I said above which still holds true.

For the majority, their first encounter with heaven will most certainly be when they die. This, despite the scriptures you quote that we both know to be equally true.

We know Jesus was totally one with the Father and only did what he saw his Father doing, but even He gave up the ghost when his body ceased to work. In other words, his spirit exited his body and travelled away.

Matt27v50And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit.

If his spirit was already in God's presence, there would be no description of his spirit departing when he died.

I was with my own father when he died, I clearly remember his spirit/breath departing!

Don't forget the Greek word for spirit is pneuma which means breath or wind.

Curtis
Oct 28th 2013, 03:21 PM
Not sure why you responded with this, Curtis, as it doesn't address what I said above which still holds true.

For the majority, their first encounter with heaven will most certainly be when they die. This, despite the scriptures you quote that we both know to be equally true.

We know Jesus was totally one with the Father and only did what he saw his Father doing, but even He gave up the ghost when his body ceased to work. In other words, his spirit exited his body and travelled away.

Matt27v50And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit.

If his spirit was already in God's presence, there would be no description of his spirit departing when he died.

I was with my own father when he died, I clearly remember his spirit/breath departing!

Don't forget the Greek word for spirit is pneuma which means breath or wind.

I know this is a hard one to grasp because we are still seeing things from both a spiritual and physical perspective. Sometimes we miss the spiritual because of either we don't know about it or we have not yet come to the place of maturity in Christ. The purpose of Jesus giving us his Glory is so that we would be one with the Father, even as Jesus is one with his Father. Jesus said something interesting about him self in the gospels.....

Joh 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Joh 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
Joh 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
Joh 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
Joh 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

Jesus claimed that not only was he on earth doing the will of his Father, but he was still in heaven with his Father at the same time. Only God's glory can accomplish this. He physically was only on earth but, spiritually was still in Heaven in the Father. This is exactly how we the Church are today. We are on earth and yet at the same time we are in Christ sitting on right hand of God. Surely there will be a day in which our physical body's will be changed and our spirit, soul and body we will fixed in only one location. But for the moment we can rejoice in both places at the same time.

imreedemed
Oct 28th 2013, 04:15 PM
JW alert going off

keck553
Oct 28th 2013, 04:25 PM
JW alert going off

Yeah, at first I thought it was Mormon (from the "does God eat" thread), but yeah, its looking more like JW. Good call.

Jade99
Oct 28th 2013, 04:41 PM
I said something was off. Satan seems to be having a field day with us lately.

Good call imreedemed, because I would have never guessed JW either.

Curtis
Oct 28th 2013, 04:46 PM
JW alert going off

Please enlighten me on what you think is off. Don't just criticize and then run off. That is not good manners.

Curtis
Oct 28th 2013, 04:49 PM
I said something was off. Satan seems to be having a field day with us lately.

Good call imreedemed, because I would have never guessed JW either.

I got news for you I am not JW or Mormon. Please show me where you think I am wrong.

Curtis
Oct 28th 2013, 05:07 PM
I said something was off. Satan seems to be having a field day with us lately.

Good call imreedemed, because I would have never guessed JW either.

I think you need to check the batteries in your discernment meter. It seems to be malfunctioning. Or you need to just throw it away. You are not even close on this one.

Jade99
Oct 28th 2013, 05:58 PM
I got news for you I am not JW or Mormon. Please show me where you think I am wrong.

Not you Curtis. Israel.

I enjoy your posts!!!!

Curtis
Oct 28th 2013, 06:01 PM
Not you Curtis. Israel.

Oops sorry, i bad

Jade99
Oct 28th 2013, 06:02 PM
Oops sorry, i bad

lol...it's ok....in seeing the order of the posts, I can understand why you thought it was you. No worries.

Curtis
Oct 28th 2013, 06:03 PM
I got news for you I am not JW or Mormon. Please show me where you think I am wrong.

Sorry, thought you were talking to me. Yes, I agree something is not quite right here.

ISRAEL
Oct 28th 2013, 07:44 PM
Acts 2

29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.

Jade99
Oct 28th 2013, 08:39 PM
Acts 2

29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.

This is what tv tropes calls "insane troll logic" Meaning, on threads when information is not clearly understood and the one who has initiated the thread is just causing confusion. In other words, I think you're purposely asking questions that is not making sense and then you're just given scriptures without telling what are they in reference to.

Israel just prove us wrong if you for real, for real. If not, you truly need to seek Christ. We can help you, but you need to be honest with yourself.

imreedemed
Oct 28th 2013, 08:48 PM
Please enlighten me on what you think is off. Don't just criticize and then run off. That is not good manners.

:)

I'm with Miss Jade on this one. We are calling out ISRAEL

percho
Oct 28th 2013, 08:51 PM
Quote Originally Posted by Proverbs 3:5-7
Ecclesiastes 12:7...

Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
{KJV}

Then shall the dust [out of which God made man’s body] return to the earth as it was, and the spirit shall return to God Who gave it.
{AMP}



although SOME MAY think these quoted Scriptures SEEM to contradict each other... however; BOTH of these passages actually COINCIDE together...
ESPECIALLY when considering how the following passage RECONCILES IN AGREEMENT with the others...
***key phrase {vs 14} being*** "God WILL BRING WITH HIM, those who sleep in Jesus" = the reason WHY they will rise first {vs 16}...

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
1 Thessalonians 4 {NKJV}

Actually the key is even so (οὕτως) The KJV translates Strongs G3779 in the following manner: so (164x), thus (17x), even so (9x), on this wise (6x), likewise (4x), after this manner (3x), misc (10x).

The ones who sleep in Jesus, that is the dead in Christ will be brought by God; thus (17x), even so (9x), on this wise (6x), likewise (4x), after this manner (3x) Of being raised from the dead and or changed incorruptible.

ISRAEL
Oct 28th 2013, 09:14 PM
The meek shall inherit the earth

Isaiah 45

18 For thus saith the Lord that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the Lord; and there is none else.

ISRAEL
Oct 28th 2013, 09:15 PM
What will the righteous inherit ?

16 The heaven, even the heavens, are the Lord's: but the earth hath he given to the children of men

Francis Drake
Oct 28th 2013, 09:35 PM
I know this is a hard one to grasp because we are still seeing things from both a spiritual and physical perspective. Sometimes we miss the spiritual because of either we don't know about it or we have not yet come to the place of maturity in Christ. The purpose of Jesus giving us his Glory is so that we would be one with the Father, even as Jesus is one with his Father. Jesus said something interesting about him self in the gospels.....

Joh 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Joh 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
Joh 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
Joh 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
Joh 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

Jesus claimed that not only was he on earth doing the will of his Father, but he was still in heaven with his Father at the same time. Only God's glory can accomplish this. He physically was only on earth but, spiritually was still in Heaven in the Father. This is exactly how we the Church are today. We are on earth and yet at the same time we are in Christ sitting on right hand of God. Surely there will be a day in which our physical body's will be changed and our spirit, soul and body we will fixed in only one location. But for the moment we can rejoice in both places at the same time.

Curtis, as on previous times it is frustrating having a dialogue with you, so please please stop trying to treat people as dumb fools. Read what I wrote first. I respect you, but you seem more intent on repeating the same old stuff without actually addressing what had previously been posted.

I have grown up on all that you keep saying here. I have heard it for nearly 40 years. However there are some serious anomalies about that theology.

Joh 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
So what about all the OT saints who ascended to heaven?
What about Enoch?
What about Moses?
What about all the elders who ascended up the mountain and ate a meal with God?
What about Elijah who went up in a chariot?
There are more examples, but this will suffice.

John3v13 does not necessarily mean what you think it means. It appears to be contradicted by other scriptures, but that is not my main point, I am just trying to halt your steamrollering responses.
You said that we would not go to heaven when we die because we are already there.
I pointed out that there was a whole host of testimony about people who ascended upward to heaven during near death experiences. As you so often do, you talk down to me by addressing a completely different point! Please do not answer by quoting unfitting scripture.

I should add, that my wife had several third heaven experiences, including meeting Jesus, when she was just 3 years old. She was born into a non christian family, and had no known christian input.
She knew that her spirit ascended to heaven and she saw the city of God and many other things. This was not a near death experience, but she used to call them "think dreams" because as a 3 year old she had no other paradigm to explain it. Her mother thought it was all just make believe, so she gradually ceased talking about it.
It was not till she was about 18 years old and she was given a bible that she read the various visions of heaven, that she recognised all that she had previously experienced.

As these things happened, her body remained on earth, and her spirit was taken elsewhere. It was not merely a trance like Peter had, as she interacted with Jesus and the angels and was even involved in spiritual warfare at age 3!

ISRAEL
Oct 28th 2013, 09:44 PM
Curtis, as on previous times it is frustrating having a dialogue with you, so please please stop trying to treat people as dumb fools. Read what I wrote first. I respect you, but you seem more intent on repeating the same old stuff without actually addressing what had previously been posted.

I have grown up on all that you keep saying here. I have heard it for nearly 40 years. However there are some serious anomalies about that theology.

Joh 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
So what about all the OT saints who ascended to heaven?
What about Enoch?
What about Moses?
What about all the elders who ascended up the mountain and ate a meal with God?
What about Elijah who went up in a chariot?
There are more examples, but this will suffice.

John3v13 does not necessarily mean what you think it means. It appears to be contradicted by other scriptures, but that is not my main point, I am just trying to halt your steamrollering responses.
You said that we would not go to heaven when we die because we are already there.
I pointed out that there was a whole host of testimony about people who ascended upward to heaven during near death experiences. As you so often do, you talk down to me by addressing a completely different point! Please do not answer by quoting unfitting scripture.

I should add, that my wife had several third heaven experiences, including meeting Jesus, when she was just 3 years old. She was born into a non christian family, and had no known christian input.
She knew that her spirit ascended to heaven and she saw the city of God and many other things. This was not a near death experience, but she used to call them "think dreams" because as a 3 year old she had no other paradigm to explain it. Her mother thought it was all just make believe, so she gradually ceased talking about it.
It was not till she was about 18 years old and she was given a bible that she read the various visions of heaven, that she recognised all that she had previously experienced.

As these things happened, her body remained on earth, and her spirit was taken elsewhere. It was not merely a trance like Peter had, as she interacted with Jesus and the angels and was even involved in spiritual warfare at age 3!




Where in the bible says Moses is in Heaven ?

Francis Drake
Oct 28th 2013, 09:52 PM
What will the righteous inherit ?

16 The heaven, even the heavens, are the Lord's: but the earth hath he given to the children of men

Revelation21v1Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea. 2And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. 3And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them,…

The Holy City, the New Jerusalem comes down from heaven to be among men.
It is made ready as a bride. It must therefore consist of the Saints, for it is they who are the bride. Therefore these saints must also come from where that city originated from before its descent, ie. in heaven.
Therefore the saints must go up to heaven, before the heavenly city comes down.

From that city, the earth will be ruled.

Curtis
Oct 28th 2013, 10:15 PM
Curtis, as on previous times it is frustrating having a dialogue with you, so please please stop trying to treat people as dumb fools. Read what I wrote first. I respect you, but you seem more intent on repeating the same old stuff without actually addressing what had previously been posted.

I have grown up on all that you keep saying here. I have heard it for nearly 40 years. However there are some serious anomalies about that theology.

Joh 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
So what about all the OT saints who ascended to heaven?
What about Enoch?
What about Moses?
What about all the elders who ascended up the mountain and ate a meal with God?
What about Elijah who went up in a chariot?
There are more examples, but this will suffice.

John3v13 does not necessarily mean what you think it means. It appears to be contradicted by other scriptures, but that is not my main point, I am just trying to halt your steamrollering responses.
You said that we would not go to heaven when we die because we are already there.
I pointed out that there was a whole host of testimony about people who ascended upward to heaven during near death experiences. As you so often do, you talk down to me by addressing a completely different point! Please do not answer by quoting unfitting scripture.

I should add, that my wife had several third heaven experiences, including meeting Jesus, when she was just 3 years old. She was born into a non christian family, and had no known christian input.
She knew that her spirit ascended to heaven and she saw the city of God and many other things. This was not a near death experience, but she used to call them "think dreams" because as a 3 year old she had no other paradigm to explain it. Her mother thought it was all just make believe, so she gradually ceased talking about it.
It was not till she was about 18 years old and she was given a bible that she read the various visions of heaven, that she recognised all that she had previously experienced.

As these things happened, her body remained on earth, and her spirit was taken elsewhere. It was not merely a trance like Peter had, as she interacted with Jesus and the angels and was even involved in spiritual warfare at age 3!

Brother I am not trying to steam roll anything. I am only speaking about what I know and experience in my own life. If I did not experience any of these things in my life then I have no room to talk.
I don't see anywhere where I am being rude to you. If you do not want to discuss anything why even come here. The things your wife experienced when she was 3 is something all believers can experience any day of the week, and that is why I am writing about these things here. If you don't want to believe them that's with OK with me. It's not my job to try and convince anybody of what I say.
It is impossible for someone to be in Christ and not be where he is right now, unless they are not in him to began with.

keck553
Oct 28th 2013, 10:16 PM
Where in the bible says Moses is in Heaven ?

Moses was with Elliyahu (sorry I can't remember his name in english) at the transfguration. Clothed in glory.

keck553
Oct 28th 2013, 10:18 PM
Revelation21v1Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea. 2And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. 3And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them,…

The Holy City, the New Jerusalem comes down from heaven to be among men.
It is made ready as a bride. It must therefore consist of the Saints, for it is they who are the bride. Therefore these saints must also come from where that city originated from before its descent, ie. in heaven.
Therefore the saints must go up to heaven, before the heavenly city comes down.

From that city, the earth will be ruled.

Didn't they sing the song of Moses and of the Lamb in Revelation?

Francis Drake
Oct 28th 2013, 11:08 PM
Brother I am not trying to steam roll anything. I am only speaking about what I know and experience in my own life. If I did not experience any of these things in my life then I have no room to talk.
I don't see anywhere where I am being rude to you. If you do not want to discuss anything why even come here. The things your wife experienced when she was 3 is something all believers can experience any day of the week, and that is why I am writing about these things here. If you don't want to believe them that's with OK with me. It's not my job to try and convince anybody of what I say.
It is impossible for someone to be in Christ and not be where he is right now, unless they are not in him to began with.

Curtis, I really do want to discuss things with you, but it isn't a discussion as you don't seem to read anything I have previously said.

You keep quoting scriptures which most people already know, and none of them address the reality of what I was speaking about.

Just to demonstrate the unreality, please would you mind recounting without just quoting scriptures, the experience of your last visit to heaven.

When was it and for how long?
What did it look like?
Who did you speak to?
Did you see other heavenly creatures?
Did you meet any of your relatives?
What did the City of God look like?
What does Paradise look like?
What do all the houses look like?
What did the fruit on the trees taste like?
What did Jesus look like?
What sort of clothes did you, or the others wear?
How did you arrive there?
Could you see what was happening on earth?
Did you see any demonic activity whilst you were up there?

Curtis
Oct 28th 2013, 11:21 PM
Curtis, I really do want to discuss things with you, but it isn't a discussion as you don't seem to read anything I have previously said.

You keep quoting scriptures which most people already know, and none of them address the reality of what I was speaking about.

Just to demonstrate the unreality, please would you mind recounting without just quoting scriptures, the experience of your last visit to heaven.

When was it and for how long?
What did it look like?
Who did you speak to?
Did you see other heavenly creatures?
Did you meet any of your relatives?
What did the City of God look like?
What does Paradise look like?
What do all the houses look like?
What did the fruit on the trees taste like?
What did Jesus look like?
What sort of clothes did you, or the others wear?
How did you arrive there?
Could you see what was happening on earth?
Did you see any demonic activity whilst you were up there?

Here is just two of many many I have had, and yes I have talked to people, and angels. Yes I have seen, and talked to people who I knew before there death. There is only one way to arrive at this place and that is through Jesus Christ. Like I said before, it is impossible for someone to be in Christ and not be where he is right now.

Quote Originally Posted by ristenk View Post
Curtis - what did He look like... did He have long hair and blue eyes like all of the paintings or was He different?

No he did not have blue eyes. His hair was not long, but a lot longer than mine. He did not have a beard. He did have some pretty spectacular clothing though, way beyond description with colors vibrant like I have never seen before. One time I saw the Lord and he was wearing over some other clothing what looked like a very shear see through cloth, and as he walked it flowed like a vapor. It had a very sweet smelling fragrance to it. It was not clothing at all but a incense type smoke that flowed off him like a shear fabric. Really cool. Jesus said that if a man will keep his word in him, this is he who loves me, me and my Father will come unto him and make our abode with him. And then Jesus said I will manifest myself to him. This is a promise that is open to all believers. But you must believe that this is true. Most believe this is only something that will happen someday in the future, and that is exactly what they are going to get. I believe this is for us today not someday. That is what I have been called to do is tell his Church that the Kingdom is here and now.
--------------------------------------------------
I first have to say that I am kinda of a silly person. I don't like to play practical jokes on people, I just like to have fun.
Several years ago, and not long after I gave my heart to the Lord. I was praying in my bead room, suddenly I sensed a presence in my room. I had my eyes closed, and did not want to open them to see what it was. I heard a voice that said, "stand upon your feet", I stood up and open my eyes. It was Jesus. I was just a baby Christian back them, and did not know what to say. What do you say to Jesus when he is standing right in front of you? The only thing I could think of at the time was , "Can I have a drink of living water?" I had just finished reading about the woman at Jacobs well, where Jesus said to her, "if you knew who it was talking to you, you would ask me for living water". So that was fresh in my mind, and that is exactly what asked for.
The Lord pointed his finger to one side. I looked over and saw a fountain, bubbling over with water. I walked over to this fountain, and stood in front of it. I wanted to take a drink, but I had nothing to use as a cup. So I asked the Lord, "do you have a cup?" Then the Lord pointed over to the other side of this fountain. When looked over there I saw a Dixie cup dispenser. I busted out laughing, I could not stop laughing. I had not seen one of those things since I was very young kid. The Lord does have a sense of humor. He is not all serious, he is fun. The one thing that surprised me more than anything was else was I felt like I was at home. No fear what soever just pure peace and joy unspeakable. A boldness to say anything you want. Since then I have had many visions of the Lord.

These types of visions, and revelations are not just for a few, but for every single child of God. The Apostle Paul said, "I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord".

WhiteHorseRider
Oct 28th 2013, 11:57 PM
.

Does The Bible Promise "Heaven"!For the saved
Millions in the Christian-professing world believe they will be raptured to heaven. They sing of "heavenly mansions," our "home up above," and of "going to be with the Lord."
In thousands of funeral ceremonies, clergymen confidently assure bereaved relatives their loved ones are already in heaven, and the belief is indelibly reinforced in an atmosphere of pain and fear of the unknown.

But does the Bible really teach Christians go to heaven when they die?
Does the bible teach that at some point the righteous will go to heaven ?



The apostle Paul mentions being with the Lord. The Lord is heaven. See Philippians 1:23. Paul also speaks of the believers being caught up in the air to meet the Lord and there Christians will be forever. See I Thessalonians 4:13-18.

WhiteHorseRider
Oct 29th 2013, 12:01 AM
No, the Bible does not teach saints go to Heaven after they die. When someone becomes born again of the incorruptible seed of the Word of God, they are translated into the Kingdom of God. They are right now sitting on the right hand of God in Christ. This is not some future event. Jesus has already taken us through the veil and into the the very presence of God with out spot or wrinkle and without blemish into the Father sight. When someone dies the only thing that happens is there physical body goes into the ground, and there spirit stays where it was before, in God's presence. The resurrection of the dead is when Christ returns to get our physical bodies. This is why it is called the resurrection of the dead. The word "dead" means "corpse" which means body. Our bodies is what Jesus is coming back for, not our spirits as we are already with him now.

Curtis,
This is an interesting post. Really is. Seriously. I want to study what you wrote. Do you have any verses that I might study?
Thank you,
WhiteHorseRider

Curtis
Oct 29th 2013, 12:41 AM
Curtis,
This is an interesting post. Really is. Seriously. I want to study what you wrote. Do you have any verses that I might study?
Thank you,
WhiteHorseRider

Hi WhiteHorseRider. Welcome to the Forum. The two most important verses concerning this is found in.....

Eph 1:15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,
Eph 1:16 Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;
Eph 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
Eph 1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
Eph 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,


The Apostle Paul found out something from the Lord that he knew he could not communicate unto the Church. It was something the Lord had reserved for himself to do. So Paul prayed to God continually for the Church that God would give us the Spirit of Wisdom, revelation, in the knowledge of him by having the eyes of our hearts enlightened so we could see the hope of his Glory. Which is Jesus Christ our hope of Glory. Only God can do this. Wisdom only comes down from above, and not from man. No man can give other man Wisdom, it is non transferable. Paul knew this and is why he prayed this prayer. I leaned this many years ago, and began to pray this same prayer for my family, and I. This has changed my life more than anything, I am continually thanking God for the Spirit of Wisdom, revelation, counsel, might, faith, and understanding. The Lord has never let me down, and has answered my prayers over and over again, so much so I can not even keep up in what he teaches me.
The next verses are these......

Col 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
Col 3:2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
Col 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

This is "repentance", Repentance means "to change your mind" We think repentance means to confess your sins and feel sorry for them, no that is called confession.
Notice in verse 1, "you have to know, and believe that you have been raised with Christ into his Kingdom. If you do not believe this than the other parts will not work.
Next: You have to set your heart on the things above where Christ is sitting on the right hand of God, and not on the things of this world. This is repentance.
Next: You have to believe you died with Christ on the cross, and that you are living in him.
If you do and believe these things, than this is what will happen to you....
When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

You my friend will never be the same after this.

Francis Drake
Oct 29th 2013, 10:01 AM
Here is just two of many many I have had, and yes I have talked to people, and angels. Yes I have seen, and talked to people who I knew before there death. There is only one way to arrive at this place and that is through Jesus Christ. Like I said before, it is impossible for someone to be in Christ and not be where he is right now.

Quote Originally Posted by ristenk View Post
Curtis - what did He look like... did He have long hair and blue eyes like all of the paintings or was He different?

No he did not have blue eyes. His hair was not long, but a lot longer than mine. He did not have a beard. He did have some pretty spectacular clothing though, way beyond description with colors vibrant like I have never seen before. One time I saw the Lord and he was wearing over some other clothing what looked like a very shear see through cloth, and as he walked it flowed like a vapor. It had a very sweet smelling fragrance to it. It was not clothing at all but a incense type smoke that flowed off him like a shear fabric. Really cool. Jesus said that if a man will keep his word in him, this is he who loves me, me and my Father will come unto him and make our abode with him. And then Jesus said I will manifest myself to him. This is a promise that is open to all believers. But you must believe that this is true. Most believe this is only something that will happen someday in the future, and that is exactly what they are going to get. I believe this is for us today not someday. That is what I have been called to do is tell his Church that the Kingdom is here and now.
--------------------------------------------------
I first have to say that I am kinda of a silly person. I don't like to play practical jokes on people, I just like to have fun.
Several years ago, and not long after I gave my heart to the Lord. I was praying in my bead room, suddenly I sensed a presence in my room. I had my eyes closed, and did not want to open them to see what it was. I heard a voice that said, "stand upon your feet", I stood up and open my eyes. It was Jesus. I was just a baby Christian back them, and did not know what to say. What do you say to Jesus when he is standing right in front of you? The only thing I could think of at the time was , "Can I have a drink of living water?" I had just finished reading about the woman at Jacobs well, where Jesus said to her, "if you knew who it was talking to you, you would ask me for living water". So that was fresh in my mind, and that is exactly what asked for.
The Lord pointed his finger to one side. I looked over and saw a fountain, bubbling over with water. I walked over to this fountain, and stood in front of it. I wanted to take a drink, but I had nothing to use as a cup. So I asked the Lord, "do you have a cup?" Then the Lord pointed over to the other side of this fountain. When looked over there I saw a Dixie cup dispenser. I busted out laughing, I could not stop laughing. I had not seen one of those things since I was very young kid. The Lord does have a sense of humor. He is not all serious, he is fun. The one thing that surprised me more than anything was else was I felt like I was at home. No fear what soever just pure peace and joy unspeakable. A boldness to say anything you want. Since then I have had many visions of the Lord.

These types of visions, and revelations are not just for a few, but for every single child of God. The Apostle Paul said, "I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord".

Finally Curtis, you have actually put legs on what you were saying. LOL
I'm sorry to be so persistent, (and as rude as I accused you), but this was the response I was looking for but you kept repeating scriptures just like mantras. None of which addressed my points. (Unfortunately they still haven't answered those points either.)

However I still believe you are wrong in the conclusions you take from your experiences, and wrong in your understanding of scripture.

You started by saying that people do not go to heaven when they die. The following is pasted from your first reply.


Curtis-
No, the Bible does not teach saints go to Heaven after they die. When someone becomes born again of the incorruptible seed of the Word of God, they are translated into the Kingdom of God. They are right now sitting on the right hand of God in Christ. This is not some future event. Jesus has already taken us through the veil and into the the very presence of God with out spot or wrinkle and without blemish into the Father sight. When someone dies the only thing that happens is there physical body goes into the ground, and there spirit stays where it was before, in God's presence. The resurrection of the dead is when Christ returns to get our physical bodies. This is why it is called the resurrection of the dead. The word "dead" means "corpse" which means body. Our bodies is what Jesus is coming back for, not our spirits as we are already with him now.


You failed to address the points I made previously.


Joh 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
Francis Drake-
So what about all the OT saints who ascended to heaven?
What about Enoch?
What about Moses?
What about all the elders who ascended up the mountain and ate a meal with God?
What about Elijah who went up in a chariot?
There are more examples, but this will suffice.

I am not arguing with the scriptures you have previously quoted. It is true that we are legally hidden in Christ, where he is. However there is a fundamentally different reality between that legal position and our experience here. It is also a fact that we are healed by the wounds of Jesus, but the church remains sick!


Paul makes it clear that Heaven is a place somewhere else. A place that he probably travelled to in his spirit. (in or out of the body)
2Cor12v2. I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago-- whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows-- such a man was caught up to the third heaven. 3And I know how such a man-- whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, God knows--…
The word Paul uses for caught up, means to be snatched away as in stolen away. ie. he was taken somewhere else away from his earthly location, most likely his spirit being taken to heaven whilst his body remained.

John14v2"In My Father's house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. 3"If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also. 4"And you know the way where I am going."

Where was Jesus going, if he was already in heaven whilst he talked to the disciples on earth? He makes it clear that he was going somewhere else and then subsequently returning to collect his bride and take her there. That dwelling place was not earth!

In fact from your own experience in the heavenly realm, and meeting the saints, you must know that they went to heaven when they died, and like the vast majority of believers, they will never have experienced heaven until that time.

Finally I totally believe that we are supposed to experience heaven this side of death. I am only addressing your point that we don't go to heaven when we die. Neither scripture, nor your own experience shows that.
If you still want to defend that claim, please address the examples I quoted above.

Curtis
Oct 29th 2013, 12:15 PM
Finally Curtis, you have actually put legs on what you were saying. LOL
I'm sorry to be so persistent, (and as rude as I accused you), but this was the response I was looking for but you kept repeating scriptures just like mantras. None of which addressed my points. (Unfortunately they still haven't answered those points either.)

However I still believe you are wrong in the conclusions you take from your experiences, and wrong in your understanding of scripture.

You started by saying that people do not go to heaven when they die. The following is pasted from your first reply.



You failed to address the points I made previously.


I am not arguing with the scriptures you have previously quoted. It is true that we are legally hidden in Christ, where he is. However there is a fundamentally different reality between that legal position and our experience here. It is also a fact that we are healed by the wounds of Jesus, but the church remains sick!


Paul makes it clear that Heaven is a place somewhere else. A place that he probably travelled to in his spirit. (in or out of the body)
2Cor12v2. I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago-- whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows-- such a man was caught up to the third heaven. 3And I know how such a man-- whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, God knows--…
The word Paul uses for caught up, means to be snatched away as in stolen away. ie. he was taken somewhere else away from his earthly location, most likely his spirit being taken to heaven whilst his body remained.

John14v2"In My Father's house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. 3"If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also. 4"And you know the way where I am going."

Where was Jesus going, if he was already in heaven whilst he talked to the disciples on earth? He makes it clear that he was going somewhere else and then subsequently returning to collect his bride and take her there. That dwelling place was not earth!

In fact from your own experience in the heavenly realm, and meeting the saints, you must know that they went to heaven when they died, and like the vast majority of believers, they will never have experienced heaven until that time.

Finally I totally believe that we are supposed to experience heaven this side of death. I am only addressing your point that we don't go to heaven when we die. Neither scripture, nor your own experience shows that.
If you still want to defend that claim, please address the examples I quoted above.

To experience God's heavenly Kingdom today requires us to first know we are there, understand it (Wisdom is understanding) and then have faith. Faith is the easy part once we understand it. We Christians live in two different worlds at the same time. the physical, and the spiritual. We are really good at living in the physical, but terrible at sensing the spiritual. Jesus lived in two worlds at the same time, he was on earth doing the will of His Father and also spiritually still in his Father in Heaven. God the Father was the same, he was sitting on his throne in Heaven. but also he was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself.
Jesus even said that it was his Father in him that was doing the works. As Jesus is right now so are we in this world, our citizen ship is in Heaven, and it is from Heaven we are awaiting his appearing not from the perspective of this earth. When he returns we are coming back with him because we are in him. We have no choice, just as Jesus has no choice as he has to go where we go because he is in us. We are living right now in eternity, yet our physical body is still living in this time based world that is subject to decay. Our physical body is what gives the legal right to be here and to finish our job which is reconciling the world unto the Lord. Once our body gives out it just gets buried, we continue living in Christ as we have already been doing. When Jesus was speaking about preparing a place for us we just assumed he was talking about at the physical resurrection. I believe he was talking about the new birth, and being translated into his Kingdom. Faith is never future tense, it is always now. Hope is future. We live and walk by faith not hope. The Kingdom is now. Surely in the physical world his Kingdom will come to earth in the future, but in the realm of the spirit it is already finished and completed, and people are living there right now, even his Church is there, but they are asleep and need to be awakened from their slumber. What the Lord has done to us and for us is way beyond all we can ask or even think in our minds, and it is marvelous in our eyes.