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Slug1
Oct 29th 2013, 01:18 PM
Would the Body of Christ view this boy today and determine he is unbalanced in the mind and that this is a reason why he is attempting what appears to be... suicide?


Mark 9:14 And when He came to the disciples, He saw a great multitude around them, and scribes disputing with them. 15 Immediately, when they saw Him, all the people were greatly amazed, and running to Him, greeted Him. 16 And He asked the scribes, “What are you discussing with them?” 17 Then one of the crowd answered and said, “Teacher, I brought You my son, who has a mute spirit. 18 And wherever it seizes him, it throws him down; he foams at the mouth, gnashes his teeth, and becomes rigid. So I spoke to Your disciples, that they should cast it out, but they could not.”
19 He answered him and said, “O faithless generation, how long shall I be with you? How long shall I bear with you? Bring him to Me.” 20 Then they brought him to Him. And when he saw Him, immediately the spirit convulsed him, and he fell on the ground and wallowed, foaming at the mouth.
21 So He asked his father, “How long has this been happening to him?”
And he said, “From childhood. 22 And often he has thrown him both into the fire and into the water to destroy him. But if You can do anything, have compassion on us and help us.”
23 Jesus said to him, “If you can believe,[a (http://bibleforums.org/#fen-NKJV-24562a)] all things are possible to him who believes.”
24 Immediately the father of the child cried out and said with tears, “Lord, I believe; help my unbelief!”
25 When Jesus saw that the people came running together, He rebuked the unclean spirit, saying to it: “Deaf and dumb spirit, I command you, come out of him and enter him no more!” 26 Then the spirit cried out, convulsed him greatly, and came out of him. And he became as one dead, so that many said, “He is dead.” 27 But Jesus took him by the hand and lifted him up, and he arose.
28 And when He had come into the house, His disciples asked Him privately, “Why could we not cast it out?”
29 So He said to them, “This kind can come out by nothing but prayer and fasting.”[b (http://bibleforums.org/#fen-NKJV-24568b)]

imreedemed
Oct 29th 2013, 04:03 PM
Are you saying the guy was attempting to commit suicide?

Berean11
Oct 29th 2013, 04:07 PM
I would have pegged it as severe epilepsy.

Nevertheless, I get what you are meaning. In the US I'm not sure if we would get it or even that it happens (in that manner). But in places like India and South Africa on the other hand I might actually think it was possession if I saw this happening. I've seen and managed grand mal seizures (not all seizures are epilepsy), but nothing that looks like this. I don't know Slug. I wouldn't have thought he was mentally ill and attempting suicide repeatedly because of the uncontrollable physical manifestations.

Sadly even Christians are influenced by todays movies and books that capitalize on the horror genre of possession and other occult themes. And the denomination that is always featured as being the only capable source of ridding people of possession is the Catholic church. I think, without realizing it or meaning to, a good many folks expect the movie manifestations and wouldn't recognize a real possession. It would be given a medical diagnosis and treated as such. On the other hand some folks would peg a real medical condition as possession....like epilepsy/seizure disorder or severe mental illness.

Not saying it doesn't happen here in the US....I guess I'm saying that in general the intellectual and technological snobbery that prevails here would cloud most people's ability to recognize real possession.

Peace, Berean11

Slug1
Oct 29th 2013, 04:16 PM
Are you saying the guy was attempting to commit suicide?How would you diagnose a person who is tossing themselves into fire or water in an effort to destroy themselves?

We know in the scriptures it was the demon causing all that the boy was doing. But not many in the Body of Christ believe demons still do this stuff... so when a person is tossing themselves into harms way to destroy themselves... YES, it can be looked at as a person trying to kill themselves.

Slug1
Oct 29th 2013, 04:18 PM
I would have pegged it as severe epilepsy.

Nevertheless, I get what you are meaning. In the US I'm not sure if we would get it or even that it happens (in that manner). But in places like India and South Africa on the other hand I might actually think it was possession if I saw this happening. I've seen and managed grand mal seizures (not all seizures are epilepsy), but nothing that looks like this. I don't know Slug. I wouldn't have thought he was mentally ill and attempting suicide repeatedly because of the uncontrollable physical manifestations.

Sadly even Christians are influenced by todays movies and books that capitalize on the horror genre of possession and other occult themes. And the denomination that is always featured as being the only capable source of ridding people of possession is the Catholic church. I think, without realizing it or meaning to, a good many folks expect the movie manifestations and wouldn't recognize a real possession. It would be given a medical diagnosis and treated as such. On the other hand some folks would peg a real medical condition as possession....like epilepsy/seizure disorder or severe mental illness.

Not saying it doesn't happen here in the US....I guess I'm saying that in general the intellectual and technological snobbery that prevails here would cloud most people's ability to recognize real possession.

Peace, Berean11Hooah !

Francis Drake
Oct 29th 2013, 09:25 PM
Or as one local pastor said to me a few years ago when I spoke to him about deliverance.
"If the Apostles back in those days, knew what we know today about the mind sciences, they would have acted completely different, and they would have written the New testament very differently!"

Human pride is such a filthy stench, and even worse when it comes from the mouth of a pastor. Sadly that man represents many of those who lead the body today.

Oregongrown
Oct 30th 2013, 12:32 AM
Would the Body of Christ view this boy today and determine he is unbalanced in the mind and that this is a reason why he is attempting what appears to be... suicide?


Mark 9:14 And when He came to the disciples, He saw a great multitude around them, and scribes disputing with them. 15 Immediately, when they saw Him, all the people were greatly amazed, and running to Him, greeted Him. 16 And He asked the scribes, “What are you discussing with them?” 17 Then one of the crowd answered and said, “Teacher, I brought You my son, who has a mute spirit. 18 And wherever it seizes him, it throws him down; he foams at the mouth, gnashes his teeth, and becomes rigid. So I spoke to Your disciples, that they should cast it out, but they could not.”
19 He answered him and said, “O faithless generation, how long shall I be with you? How long shall I bear with you? Bring him to Me.” 20 Then they brought him to Him. And when he saw Him, immediately the spirit convulsed him, and he fell on the ground and wallowed, foaming at the mouth.
21 So He asked his father, “How long has this been happening to him?”
And he said, “From childhood. 22 And often he has thrown him both into the fire and into the water to destroy him. But if You can do anything, have compassion on us and help us.”
23 Jesus said to him, “If you can believe,[a (http://bibleforums.org/#fen-NKJV-24562a)] all things are possible to him who believes.”
24 Immediately the father of the child cried out and said with tears, “Lord, I believe; help my unbelief!”
25 When Jesus saw that the people came running together, He rebuked the unclean spirit, saying to it: “Deaf and dumb spirit, I command you, come out of him and enter him no more!” 26 Then the spirit cried out, convulsed him greatly, and came out of him. And he became as one dead, so that many said, “He is dead.” 27 But Jesus took him by the hand and lifted him up, and he arose.
28 And when He had come into the house, His disciples asked Him privately, “Why could we not cast it out?”
29 So He said to them, “This kind can come out by nothing but prayer and fasting.”[b (http://bibleforums.org/#fen-NKJV-24568b)]
No, I would not think he was unbalanced in his mind, or trying to commit suicide. My first thought would be epilepsy, and an epileptic seizure today.

denise, ysic

divaD
Oct 30th 2013, 01:12 AM
Or as one local pastor said to me a few years ago when I spoke to him about deliverance.
"If the Apostles back in those days, knew what we know today about the mind sciences, they would have acted completely different, and they would have written the New testament very differently!"



I don't get this logic? Why? Because the Holy Spirit was 100% involved in what they wrote at the time. If the above could possibly be true, and yes I realize this is only a hypothetical that this pastor was presenting, it would mean the apostles back then, what they wrote, it would have been inspired of men and not of God. Since there is no conceivable way in all the universe for the Holy Spirit to get something wrong, then it wouldn't have mattered in the least, even if "the Apostles back in those days, knew what we know today about the mind sciences", they still would have written things exactly like the Holy Spirit had wanted them to. Otherwise one couldn't say with 100% certainly that the NT was inspired of God, or that the apostles were inspired by the Holy Spirit.

Slug1
Oct 30th 2013, 01:29 AM
No, I would not think he was unbalanced in his mind, or trying to commit suicide. My first thought would be epilepsy, and an epileptic seizure today.

denise, ysicIf you read the verse, the spirit sends the boy into convulsions, falling to the ground, gnashes teeth, goes rigid, foams at the mouth, etc. If this was it, then I'd agree with you that Epilepsy would be the diagnosis. But the spirit also causes the boy to be thrown into fire and water to destroy the boy... this is not any epileptic convulsions.

If viewed, this would be a boy going to a fire or to water and falling (apparently) willfully into either, to die.

So would this be viewed as attempted suicide today along with the Epilepsy diagnosis?

Slug1
Oct 30th 2013, 01:33 AM
Or as one local pastor said to me a few years ago when I spoke to him about deliverance.
"If the Apostles back in those days, knew what we know today about the mind sciences, they would have acted completely different, and they would have written the New testament very differently!"

Human pride is such a filthy stench, and even worse when it comes from the mouth of a pastor. Sadly that man represents many of those who lead the body today.Let me guess... only seminary educated? No experience out in the field, trenches, or... the world at all?

Oregongrown
Oct 30th 2013, 01:44 AM
If you read the verse, the spirit sends the boy into convulsions, falling to the ground, gnashes teeth, goes rigid, foams at the mouth, etc. If this was it, then I'd agree with you that Epilepsy would be the diagnosis. But the spirit also causes the boy to be thrown into fire and water to destroy the boy... this is not any epileptic convulsions.

If viewed, this would be a boy going to a fire or to water and falling (apparently) willfully into either, to die.

So would this be viewed as attempted suicide today along with the Epilepsy diagnosis?

you asked what someone would think today, and if I saw that and heard some guy say that a spirit is doing it, I would still think it was epilepsy. And why not when the father is talking about episodes of this, they may be going down to fetch water, oh yeah, only women did that, so they were going swimming, the boy has another attack at the pool, and then they go camping, and he has another where he is trying to roast his weenie and falls into the fire. What??

Slug1
Oct 30th 2013, 01:45 AM
you asked what someone would think today, and if I saw that and heard some guy say that a spirit is doing it, I would still think it was epilepsy.Really, why?

Curtis
Oct 30th 2013, 01:45 AM
Would the Body of Christ view this boy today and determine he is unbalanced in the mind and that this is a reason why he is attempting what appears to be... suicide?


Mark 9:14 And when He came to the disciples, He saw a great multitude around them, and scribes disputing with them. 15 Immediately, when they saw Him, all the people were greatly amazed, and running to Him, greeted Him. 16 And He asked the scribes, “What are you discussing with them?” 17 Then one of the crowd answered and said, “Teacher, I brought You my son, who has a mute spirit. 18 And wherever it seizes him, it throws him down; he foams at the mouth, gnashes his teeth, and becomes rigid. So I spoke to Your disciples, that they should cast it out, but they could not.”
19 He answered him and said, “O faithless generation, how long shall I be with you? How long shall I bear with you? Bring him to Me.” 20 Then they brought him to Him. And when he saw Him, immediately the spirit convulsed him, and he fell on the ground and wallowed, foaming at the mouth.
21 So He asked his father, “How long has this been happening to him?”
And he said, “From childhood. 22 And often he has thrown him both into the fire and into the water to destroy him. But if You can do anything, have compassion on us and help us.”
23 Jesus said to him, “If you can believe,[a (http://bibleforums.org/#fen-NKJV-24562a)] all things are possible to him who believes.”
24 Immediately the father of the child cried out and said with tears, “Lord, I believe; help my unbelief!”
25 When Jesus saw that the people came running together, He rebuked the unclean spirit, saying to it: “Deaf and dumb spirit, I command you, come out of him and enter him no more!” 26 Then the spirit cried out, convulsed him greatly, and came out of him. And he became as one dead, so that many said, “He is dead.” 27 But Jesus took him by the hand and lifted him up, and he arose.
28 And when He had come into the house, His disciples asked Him privately, “Why could we not cast it out?”
29 So He said to them, “This kind can come out by nothing but prayer and fasting.”[b (http://bibleforums.org/#fen-NKJV-24568b)]

I think it would depend on what Church you asked this question. Some would say he just needed counseling. Others would blame his parents on wrong upbringing. Some would say it was his bad influences at school. Very few would get it right, except those who are led by the Holy Spirit. I will say this though, that there are instances of people who are really physically disabled and are not influenced by demonic spirits that some would say they were oppressed or possessed. Discerning of spirits would be needed in such situations so we are not trying to cast a spirit out of someone that is not there, which causes fear to manifest, and allows Satan to play his tricks.

Slug1
Oct 30th 2013, 01:58 AM
I think it would depend on what Church you asked this question. Some would say he just needed counseling. Others would blame his parents on wrong upbringing. Some would say it was his bad influences at school. Very few would get it right, except those who are led by the Holy Spirit. I will say this though, that there are instances of people who are really physically disabled and are not influenced by demonic spirits that some would say they were oppressed or possessed. Discerning of spirits would be needed in such situations so we are not trying to cast a spirit out of someone that is not there, which causes fear to manifest, and allows Satan to play his tricks.Amen... since God put me in deliverance ministry, spirits are easier to deal with compared to dealing with unbelieving Christians.

I agree 100%. When there is no spirit discerned or revealed by God... then the person is counseled. When a spirit is discerned, then it is cast out. If healing is needed, that is prayed next and then the counseling and discipling commences. Sometimes healing is not needed as the moment the spirit is cast out, the physical problem ends suddenly or the body can begin to heal naturally because there is no spiritual hindrance stopping the bodies normal function(s).

Oregongrown
Oct 30th 2013, 01:59 AM
Really, why?

Because that is what would come into my mind. Maybe I'm just not spiritually-minded enough. If someone is hurt, and bleeding, I am not going to sit there and pray, I'm calling 911, then I'll pray, sorry if I'm not up to some standard I need to be, no I'm not sorry. God is bringing me along just fine.

Aviyah
Oct 30th 2013, 02:00 AM
You can't just focus on the fire and water part, though. That would be like diagnosing a disease and ignoring the majority of symptoms. Foaming at the mouth, convulsions, and loss of consciousness are all in addition to falling in fire and water. If someone was JUST throwing themselves into fire and water, that would be different than what was happening to the boy.

Slug1
Oct 30th 2013, 02:01 AM
Because that is what would come into my mind. Maybe I'm just not spiritually-minded enough. If someone is hurt, and bleeding, I am not going to sit there and pray, I'm calling 911, then I'll pray, sorry if I'm not up to some standard I need to be, no I'm not sorry. God is bringing me along just fine.Hooah... not talking about standards though.

Would seeing a boy walk up to fire or water and jumping in and not do anything to get out... would this be considered an attempted suicide?

Slug1
Oct 30th 2013, 02:03 AM
You can't just focus on the fire and water part, though. That would be like diagnosing a disease and ignoring the majority of symptoms.Exactly... but as the Body of Christ are we effective in dealing with this problem that is BECAUSE of a demon?

Or would the Body of Christ say... the boy has only epilepsy and then not even attempt to discern the REAL cause of the problem(s)?

Aviyah
Oct 30th 2013, 02:05 AM
Exactly... but as the Body of Christ are we effective in dealing with this problem that is BECAUSE of a demon?

Or would the Body of Christ say... the boy has only epilepsy and then not even attempt to discern the REAL cause of the problem(s)?

I mean I can't really answer because it's such a huge subject that covers billions of people. I'm sure some people would say it's not a demon, and others would say it was a demon. Sometimes epilepsy is demonic and other times it's not.

Slug1
Oct 30th 2013, 02:12 AM
I mean I can't really answer because it's such a huge subject that covers billions of people. I'm sure some people would say it's not a demon, and others would say it was a demon. Sometimes epilepsy is demonic and other times it's not.I agree. Most of the time it's not a spirit causing the medical problem. However, for those times it is... ANY Christian can end the boys problems with a moment of casting out the spirit and freeing the boy. But then... how many Christians fast too?

Do we see why satan keeps the Body of Christ in unbelief?

Oregongrown
Oct 30th 2013, 02:15 AM
Hooah... not talking about standards though.

Would seeing a boy walk up to fire or water and jumping in and not do anything to get out... would this be considered an attempted suicide?

Yes, I would see it as that, or, possibly mentally challenged. More the latter now that I see it in black and white.

Slug1
Oct 30th 2013, 02:23 AM
Yes, I would see it as that, or, possibly mentally challenged. More the latter now that I see it in black and white.Hooah, understood. As you grow in Christ, know that you will begin to also see in MORE than just black and white. You will also be able to look spiritually, the Bibles calls this discernment.

In post #6 we have a pastor who will never have discernment and will never look with spiritual eyes open. Guess what, I can say that ALL the Christians that he disciples will be the same as he is and this is why satan is able to be so strong and the Body of Christ so weak spiritually.

Today, there are so few who would see that the boy is oppressed and the spirit IS the reason for the medical problem. Another problem, many Christians who do accept the boy is oppressed, fear doing something about it and will not even attempt to cast the demon out.

Oregongrown
Oct 30th 2013, 02:27 AM
Hooah, understood. As you grow in Christ, know that you will begin to also see in MORE than just black and white. You will also be able to look spiritually, the Bibles calls this discernment.

In post #6 we have a pastor who will never have discernment and will never look with spiritual eyes open. Guess what, I can say that ALL the Christians that he disciples will be the same as he is and this is why satan is able to be so strong and the Body of Christ so weak spiritually.

Today, there are so few who would see that the boy is oppressed and the spirit IS the reason for the medical problem.

I already have a bit of discernment, but I welcome more, all that God has for me.

I think that to state someone will never, is almost holding them back from becoming what God wants them to be. If you pray for this pastor, I think you will see great things come of him and his flock, don't you think?

Slug1
Oct 30th 2013, 02:33 AM
I already have a bit of discernment, but I welcome more, all that God has for me.

I think that to state someone will never, is almost holding them back from becoming what God wants them to be. If you pray for this pastor, I think you will see great things come of him and his flock, don't you think?Sure... God will hear prayer but we find specifics about false teachers, wolves and their likes and it has nothing to do with praying for them. It's more about exposing them so sheep can avoid them and for those under them... they will go down following the false teacher.

I have experienced some like what FD described, they will not hear the truth of the Word of God and their unbelief is dominant and drives them... intercession can always have breakthrough... but the Bible also allows us to dust our feet. So, if the Holy Spirit says pray, then I am always obedient. I have begun prayers for such teachers, only to have the Holy Spirit tell me to STOP and never pray again for the situation. I can only assume the false teacher was lost and for those who know my views of the unpardonable sin, such experiences I've had confirmed my understanding.

Oregongrown
Oct 30th 2013, 02:42 AM
Sure... God will hear prayer but we find specifics about false teachers, wolves and their likes and it has nothing to do with praying for them. It's more about exposing them so sheep can avoid them and for those under them... they will go down following the false teacher.

I have experienced some like what FD described, they will not hear the truth of the Word of God and their unbelief is dominant and drives them... intercession can always have breakthrough... but the Bible also allows us to dust our feet. So, if the Holy Spirit says pray, then I am always obedient. I have begun prayers for such teachers, only to have the Holy Spirit tell me to STOP and never pray again for the situation. I can only assume the false teacher was lost and for those who know my views of the unpardonable sin, such experiences I've had confirmed my understanding.

Well, I realize now that this is too much like gossip especially since you are talking about someone on this thread. Do you think it's ok to talk about them when they can hear/read? I know it's wrong to talk about others in a in a tearing down way when they aren't around. Surely you don't think this is a Christ-like thing to do. I'm not saying I haven't done it myself, but I am convicted, and allowing the Lord to change things like that in me.

Curtis
Oct 30th 2013, 02:49 AM
Or as one local pastor said to me a few years ago when I spoke to him about deliverance.
"If the Apostles back in those days, knew what we know today about the mind sciences, they would have acted completely different, and they would have written the New testament very differently!"

Human pride is such a filthy stench, and even worse when it comes from the mouth of a pastor. Sadly that man represents many of those who lead the body today.

That is for sure sad. Anyone who thinks the Bible was written by man is in deep trouble, and if that person is a pastor that makes it even worse.

Slug1
Oct 30th 2013, 02:52 AM
Well, I realize now that this is too much like gossip especially since you are talking about someone on this thread. Do you think it's ok to talk about them when they can hear/read? I know it's wrong to talk about others in a in a tearing down way when they aren't around. Surely you don't think this is a Christ-like thing to do. I'm not saying I haven't done it myself, but I am convicted, and allowing the Lord to change things like that in me.While I understand your points, I've experienced this alot and informing others of what unbelief caused or will result in (a person never maturing), is not gossip. It's more about illuminating a problem and examples of a problem has been provided in the testimony found in post #6.

So, with that said, back to the topic since we moved off it...

cindyt
Oct 30th 2013, 03:03 AM
If you read the verse, the spirit sends the boy into convulsions, falling to the ground, gnashes teeth, goes rigid, foams at the mouth, etc. If this was it, then I'd agree with you that Epilepsy would be the diagnosis. But the spirit also causes the boy to be thrown into fire and water to destroy the boy... this is not any epileptic convulsions.

If viewed, this would be a boy going to a fire or to water and falling (apparently) willfully into either, to die.

So would this be viewed as attempted suicide today along with the Epilepsy diagnosis? But why would the demon want to kill it's host? I think it's the other way around. The boy might have had just the slightest presence of mind to try to kill himself to be free of the demon's torment. Just my two cents.

Oregongrown
Oct 30th 2013, 03:11 AM
While I understand your points, I've experienced this alot and informing others of what unbelief caused or will result in (a person never maturing), is not gossip. It's more about illuminating a problem and examples of a problem has been provided in the testimony found in post #6.

So, with that said, back to the topic since we moved off it...

Ok, but for example, I could say right now "slug is never going to admit where he might be wrong", but if I said it God's Holy Spirit would convict me and humble pie time, which has never hurt me one bit. So instead, I would hope to pray for slug, and leave knowledge of the future in God's capable hands.

God bless your eve;) denise, ysic

divaD
Oct 30th 2013, 03:39 AM
I have begun prayers for such teachers, only to have the Holy Spirit tell me to STOP and never pray again for the situation. I can only assume the false teacher was lost and for those who know my views of the unpardonable sin, such experiences I've had confirmed my understanding.


I find this a bit confusing to be honest with you. Why would the Holy Spirit have you pray for someone that the Holy Spirit would have to already know there is no hope for them? Assuming this was indeed the case. I don't get it? It would be like the Holy Spirit wanting someone to pray for Judas before he betrayed Jesus, when the Holy Spirit would already know good and well that it would be hopeless for anyone to pray for him. In another thread you suggested that I should try and not be so logical about things, or something along those lines. Without some form of logic it is impossible to discern anything. Take Jesus walking on water for instance. Using logic, one can easily understand how He did that, the fact He is God and directly connected to the Father. But without using logic like that, especially if one was an unbeliever, they would say it was impossible, thus it never really happened. In order for something to be true, there has to be some form of logic to it. Even if false miracles were happening for example, the logic to it would be that satan was behind it. I'm only using that as an example, not trying to imply anything here one way or the other about anyone.

Curtis
Oct 30th 2013, 03:52 AM
Many years ago, when I was just about 2 months old in the Lord. I was going to very small church, the pastor was just starting out in the ministry. There was a lady who was also young in the Lord. She asked a few of the Church members to come over to pray for her one night. She told us she thought she had a demon in her, so began to pray for her, and all of a sudden while we were praying a demonic spirit spoke from this lady and said, "I am not coming out of her, she is mine" Right away I could feel the hairs on my skin stand up, and began to get afraid, none of us had ever seen anything like this before. We asked "whats your name" and the spirit said in a mans voice "I am Rio lobo", I think that means "river wolf" in Spanish. We could not get this spirit to leave this lady, we took turns trying to cast out this demon thinking maybe one of us had more power. This thing was not going anywhere. We were all new Christians and could not understand why the name Jesus could not cast this spirit out.
There was one Christian who was there just praying and watching what we were doing and the Lord revealed to this person through discerning of spirits that this Lady did not have a demon. She was operating in the fear and had opened the door for this to manifest it self on her. We could not cast it out of her because it was not in her. We all gathered together in prayer and bond the spirit of fear from this place, and from this Lady. Immediately the spirit left ware we were and the peace of God filled the room. It's a real eye opener when you are in and around these spirits, especially if you are new Christian. Fear is the major reason why they manifest themselves.

divaD
Oct 30th 2013, 03:57 AM
Many years ago, when I was just about 2 months old in the Lord. I was going to very small church, the pastor was just starting out in the ministry. There was a lady who was also young in the Lord. She asked a few of the Church members to come over to pray for her one night. She told us she thought she had a demon in her, so began to pray for her, and all of a sudden while we were praying a demonic spirit spoke from this lady and said, "I am not coming out of her, she is mine" Right away I could feel the hairs on my skin stand up, and began to get afraid, none of us had ever seen anything like this before. We asked "whats your name" and the spirit said in a mans voice "I am Rio lobo", I think that means "river wolf" in Spanish. We could not get this spirit to leave this lady, we took turns trying to cast out this demon thinking maybe one of us had more power. This thing was not going anywhere. We were all new Christians and could not understand why the name Jesus could not cast this spirit out.
There was one Christian who was there just praying and watching what we were doing and the Lord revealed to this person through discerning of spirits that this Lady did not have a demon. She was operating in the fear and had opened the door for this to manifest it self on her. We could not cast it out of her because it was not in her. We all gathered together in prayer and bond the spirit of fear from this place, and from this Lady. Immediately the spirit left ware we were and the peace of God filled the room. It's a real eye opener when you are in and around these spirits, especially if you are new Christian. Fear is the major reason why they manifest themselves.

I don't get this either. Didn't you say the demon said it wasn't coming out of her? How does that not equate to the demon being inside of her then? I don't disbelieve your testimony or anything, it's just that I don't get how the demon was not inside of her, when the demon clearly said it wasn't coming out of her?

Curtis
Oct 30th 2013, 04:01 AM
I don't get this either. Didn't you say the demon said it wasn't coming out of her? How does that not equate to the demon being inside of her then? I don't disbelieve your testimony or anything, it's just that I don't get how the demon was not inside of her, when the demon clearly said it wasn't coming out of her?

We were telling the demon to come out of her, but it was not inside of her it was only oppressing her from the outside. This spirit was already out of her, because it was never in her to begin with. In other words this spirit was lying to us, and making us believe it was in her. This shows how important it is to have the discerning of spirits (which is one of the gifts of the Spirit) operating before doing any of these things.

divaD
Oct 30th 2013, 04:09 AM
We were telling the demon to come out of her, but it was not inside of her it was only oppressing her from the outside. This spirit was already out of her, because it was never in her to begin with. This shows how important it is to have the discerning of spirits (which is one of the gifts of the Spirit) operating before doing any of these things.

Not trying to be difficult here, but I still don't get it. I understand it from your perspective and those there at the time, I get that. But from the demon's perspective, according to you, it said "I am not coming out of her, she is mine". In order for it to not want to come out of her, that would have to mean it was in her, I would think. Oppression and possession are not the same things, right? I've never heard of oppression being described in that way. That sounds more like possession to me.

TheDivineWatermark
Oct 30th 2013, 04:10 AM
So, it was a demon ventriloquist? :D

divaD
Oct 30th 2013, 04:15 AM
So, it was a demon ventriloquist? :D


Either that, or a lying demon. Wait a minute..all demons are liars to begin with, so I guess that wouldn't it explain it then.

Curtis
Oct 30th 2013, 04:18 AM
Not trying to be difficult here, but I still don't get it. I understand it from your perspective and those there at the time, I get that. But from the demon's perspective, according to you, it said "I am not coming out of her, she is mine". In order for it to not want to come out of her, that would have to mean it was in her, I would think. Oppression and possession are not the same things, right? I've never heard of oppression being described in that way. That sounds more like possession to me.

Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

This lady was yielding her members to fear. Fear moves the Devil, Faith moves God.

Slug1
Oct 30th 2013, 12:03 PM
But why would the demon want to kill it's host? I think it's the other way around. The boy might have had just the slightest presence of mind to try to kill himself to be free of the demon's torment. Just my two cents.Either way... the enemy accomplished what he comes to do: steal, kill, and destroy.

The Body of Christ is to prevent this through the authority and power of God and can free anyone oppressed just like that boy in the scriptures.

Slug1
Oct 30th 2013, 12:03 PM
You can't just focus on the fire and water part, though. That would be like diagnosing a disease and ignoring the majority of symptoms. Foaming at the mouth, convulsions, and loss of consciousness are all in addition to falling in fire and water. If someone was JUST throwing themselves into fire and water, that would be different than what was happening to the boy.This portion can't be ignored either.

Slug1
Oct 30th 2013, 12:05 PM
Ok, but for example, I could say right now "slug is never going to admit where he might be wrong", but if I said it God's Holy Spirit would convict me and humble pie time, which has never hurt me one bit. So instead, I would hope to pray for slug, and leave knowledge of the future in God's capable hands.

God bless your eve;) denise, ysicHooah... it works too. I'm proof.

Slug1
Oct 30th 2013, 12:09 PM
I find this a bit confusing to be honest with you. Why would the Holy Spirit have you pray for someone that the Holy Spirit would have to already know there is no hope for them? My prayer was "because it's the right thing to do" kind of prayer. Basically I was praying due to my emotion of feeling bad for the person... not because I was prompted by the Holy Spirit. When I did begin to pray... this was when the Holy Spirit was clear, STOP.


Assuming this was indeed the case. I don't get it? It would be like the Holy Spirit wanting someone to pray for Judas before he betrayed Jesus, when the Holy Spirit would already know good and well that it would be hopeless for anyone to pray for him. In another thread you suggested that I should try and not be so logical about things, or something along those lines. Without some form of logic it is impossible to discern anything. Take Jesus walking on water for instance. Using logic, one can easily understand how He did that, the fact He is God and directly connected to the Father. But without using logic like that, especially if one was an unbeliever, they would say it was impossible, thus it never really happened. In order for something to be true, there has to be some form of logic to it. Even if false miracles were happening for example, the logic to it would be that satan was behind it. I'm only using that as an example, not trying to imply anything here one way or the other about anyone.Logic? Much of the spiritual moves in the Bible defy ALL logic Dave. If a person moves only logically, they can't move faithfully. Logically doing the work of God is IMPOSSIBLE but by faith, ALL is possible. Compound that faith with belief and TRUST... God WILL do much through such a servant.

Slug1
Oct 30th 2013, 12:24 PM
Many years ago, when I was just about 2 months old in the Lord. I was going to very small church, the pastor was just starting out in the ministry. There was a lady who was also young in the Lord. She asked a few of the Church members to come over to pray for her one night. She told us she thought she had a demon in her, so began to pray for her, and all of a sudden while we were praying a demonic spirit spoke from this lady and said, "I am not coming out of her, she is mine" Right away I could feel the hairs on my skin stand up, and began to get afraid, none of us had ever seen anything like this before. We asked "whats your name" and the spirit said in a mans voice "I am Rio lobo", I think that means "river wolf" in Spanish. We could not get this spirit to leave this lady, we took turns trying to cast out this demon thinking maybe one of us had more power. This thing was not going anywhere. We were all new Christians and could not understand why the name Jesus could not cast this spirit out.
There was one Christian who was there just praying and watching what we were doing and the Lord revealed to this person through discerning of spirits that this Lady did not have a demon. She was operating in the fear and had opened the door for this to manifest it self on her. We could not cast it out of her because it was not in her. We all gathered together in prayer and bond the spirit of fear from this place, and from this Lady. Immediately the spirit left ware we were and the peace of God filled the room. It's a real eye opener when you are in and around these spirits, especially if you are new Christian. Fear is the major reason why they manifest themselves.My very first experience with a demon manifesting was very similar. Even down to the initial surprise and fear. I paused in my praying and mentally called out to God for understanding and His strength and even before I was finished calling out, a calm washed over me and the Holy Spirit allowed me to understand that this is a real demon, to watch and listen to those in the room praying who have been doing this for years.

The demon continued to speak, even spoke of what the person did for it to have the authority to enter their flesh (since childhood) and as the prayers to cast it out continued, it began to protest in ways I've never imagined and as this was happening, the Holy Spirit kept placing verses in the Bible that are of when deliverance was being done and understanding filled me (best way to explain what was happening) as I observed.

All I did that day was mainly worship/praise God as I voiced His glory and power over satan while those who were doing the direct casting out continued to pray. Yes, the voice was not the persons, yes the person was thrown to the ground, yes the person spoke obsenities and also called on satan in ways I'll never forget.

In this case however, the demon was very much in the person's flesh and when it was cast out, I was able to smell it.

While this was going on, I was at peace as you experienced and when the demon was gone, this peace was upon all in the room as was with your experience.

What happened in this person's childhood was to "cause fear" and in that fear, this was when this demon entered the person. Fear does play a major part in satan's forces in gaining access to people.

This is why so many scriptures concern the renewing of the mind and that we are not to be fearful.

Slug1
Oct 30th 2013, 12:28 PM
I don't get this either. Didn't you say the demon said it wasn't coming out of her? How does that not equate to the demon being inside of her then? I don't disbelieve your testimony or anything, it's just that I don't get how the demon was not inside of her, when the demon clearly said it wasn't coming out of her?Demon's will do what they can to deceive... if there was no discernment to know the truth of the matter, they would be casting it OUT of her and not accomplish anything. Eventually the demon would just shutup and they (being inexperienced) may think the demon was cast out and was gone... only to be there waiting for all to leave and then continue to oppress with fear even more.

This is why discernment, knowledge, wisdom, even prophecy is so important and WHY God has given these spiritual gifts to the Body of Christ. So we are not deceived by the "wiles" of the devil.

edit:


We were telling the demon to come out of her, but it was not inside of her it was only oppressing her from the outside. This spirit was already out of her, because it was never in her to begin with. In other words this spirit was lying to us, and making us believe it was in her. This shows how important it is to have the discerning of spirits (which is one of the gifts of the Spirit) operating before doing any of these things.

Hooah, I should read all through this thread before I reply after each post I'm replying too :)

Slug1
Oct 30th 2013, 12:38 PM
Not trying to be difficult here, but I still don't get it. I understand it from your perspective and those there at the time, I get that. But from the demon's perspective, according to you, it said "I am not coming out of her, she is mine". In order for it to not want to come out of her, that would have to mean it was in her, I would think. Oppression and possession are not the same things, right? I've never heard of oppression being described in that way. That sounds more like possession to me.The demon was lying to throw them off. Believe me, it knows experienced and inexperience when it comes to the Body of Christ doing deliverance. It is good the Holy Spirit was listened to by that one with experience, otherwise, the inexperienced people in the room could have left the prayer thinking about their failure and think they are not cut out for delieverance... which is falling into the lie.

It's like a play book, the enemy does the same thing over and over. I have been called to a delieverance ministry for 6+ years now, I'm sure I have not seem much but what I have seen, it's like a playbook and since I journal EVERYTHING all these plays are very fresh in my mind. I'm told it is because of being "called" to this ministry that I can't forget anything. If this is how God uses me, so be it. But the point is, when a spirit is present and based on what it does, or how it smells, or what it speaks, it is just the evidence that reveals it's lies. Not to mention the straightup listening to the Holy Spirit informing me (knowledge) as revelation is given to discern exactly what the demon is up to in some cases.

Slug1
Oct 30th 2013, 12:53 PM
Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

This lady was yielding her members to fear. Fear moves the Devil, Faith moves God.I was praying to God about a situation similar to what you described. God pointed out Pentecost to me and while this initially caused confusion, I paused my praying and began to read in Acts. As I read, I was reading how the people in the upper room allowed the Holy Spirit to give "utterance" to different tongues: Acts 2:4

So after reading this, I began to understand that all in the room were already sealed in the Holy Spirit due to their belief and acceptance of Christ. However, when the Holy Spirit fell upon them as in the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, they opened their mouths and the Holy Spirit "GAVE them utterance". It wasn't of their own mind forming what was spoken since they didn't know how to speak the various langauges/tongues they spoke.

So I sat there and as I continued to pursue in prayer for understanding, God pointed out that final portion of the scriptures about the Holy Spirit "gave them utterance" to speak in other tongues. Then, the understanding hit me... your experience is satan imitating this. The demon oppresses the person to the point that when the person opens thier mouth the demon is giving the utterance and the person finds themselves speaking what they (themselves) would not normally speak. In our own experiences during delieverance and this happens, we don't have to "cast" any demon out and if we did, nothing would effectively be done.

imreedemed
Oct 30th 2013, 01:10 PM
Slug

I thought you were in the group that denies the supernatural and the gifts of the Holy Spirit in the present day.

Just hours ago i was doing some research on the past Strange Fire Conference;it's sad some very big preachers in the industry say the gifts never made it out of 100AD.

And yes, it needs discernment to know an evil spirit. I haven't encountered one in action but i know for sure the devil is out there oppressing people.

God bless

Slug1
Oct 30th 2013, 01:14 PM
Slug

I thought you were in the group that denies the supernatural and the gifts of the Holy Spirit in the present day.

Just hours ago i was doing some research on the past Strange Fire Conference;it's sad some very big preachers in the industry say the gifts never made it out of 100AD.

And yes, it needs discernment to know an evil spirit. I haven't encountered one in action but i know for sure the devil is out there oppressing people.

God blessHooah!

May I ask what I may have said that gave you the assumption I was an unbeliever about the supernatural/spiritual portions of a Christians relationship with God and how the gifts of the Holy Spirit have PURPOSE even today?

imreedemed
Oct 30th 2013, 01:34 PM
Hooah!

May I ask what I may have said that gave you the assumption I was an unbeliever about the supernatural/spiritual portions of a Christians relationship with God and how the gifts of the Holy Spirit have PURPOSE even today?

It doesn't matter anymore :)

Stay blessed!

Oregongrown
Oct 30th 2013, 04:16 PM
Hooah... it works too. I'm proof.

I see you edited out your statement about praying here, but you and I (and God) know what you said. So I want to say this, and then I'll be done here. I believe you when you say the Holy Spirit spoke and told you to stop praying for the man, especially because you said you were praying for wrong reasons. But I believe that the Holy Spirit convicts us, and then we get on the right track (hopefully) and pray rightly for the man. But I don't know of anything in the bible that tells me to stop praying for someone that "we feel" is a hopeless case.

denise

Curtis
Oct 30th 2013, 05:00 PM
I see you edited out your statement about praying here, but you and I (and God) know what you said. So I want to say this, and then I'll be done here. I believe you when you say the Holy Spirit spoke and told you to stop praying for the man, especially because you said you were praying for wrong reasons. But I believe that the Holy Spirit convicts us, and then we get on the right track (hopefully) and pray rightly for the man. But I don't know of anything in the bible that tells me to stop praying for someone that "we feel" is a hopeless case.

denise

There is a case in which we are not to pray for someone. Check it out and study these verses and see what you come up with.

1Jn 5:16 If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God will give him life—to those who commit sins that do not lead to death. There is sin that leads to death; I do not say that one should pray for that.
1Jn 5:17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that does not lead to death.
1Jn 5:18 We know that everyone who has been born of God does not keep on sinning, but he who was born of God protects him, and the evil one does not touch him.

The Chaldee Paraphrase is, ‘When your priests expand their hands to pray for you.’

Isa 1:15 When you spread out your hands, I will hide my eyes from you; even though you make many prayers, I will not listen; your hands are full of blood.

Oregongrown
Oct 30th 2013, 05:27 PM
There is a case in which we are not to pray for someone. Check it out and study these verses and see what you come up with.

1Jn 5:16 If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God will give him life—to those who commit sins that do not lead to death. There is sin that leads to death; I do not say that one should pray for that.
1Jn 5:17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that does not lead to death.
1Jn 5:18 We know that everyone who has been born of God does not keep on sinning, but he who was born of God protects him, and the evil one does not touch him.

The Chaldee Paraphrase is, ‘When your priests expand their hands to pray for you.’

Isa 1:15 When you spread out your hands, I will hide my eyes from you; even though you make many prayers, I will not listen; your hands are full of blood.

Ok, so I will start a thread on this so's not to wander off slugs topic, thank you for the verses though. I'll show them in the post/topic, denise, a sister in Christ

Aviyah
Oct 30th 2013, 05:29 PM
There is a case in which we are not to pray for someone. Check it out and study these verses and see what you come up with.

Surely this does not mean we should not pray for the suicidal, drug addicts, and reckless?

It reads to me that there is no need to pray for a sin that has lead to death, not that could lead to death - because we cannot know the future. Lying and theft can lead to death in certain circumstances. I don't think we should then assume praying for liars and thieves is vain.

Curtis
Oct 30th 2013, 05:50 PM
Surely this does not mean we should not pray for the suicidal, drug addicts, and reckless?

It reads to me that there is no need to pray for a sin that has lead to death, not that could lead to death - because we cannot know the future. Lying and theft can lead to death in certain circumstances. I don't think we should then assume praying for liars and thieves is vain.

This I have not studied this in depth. I was just quickened by the Spirit about this verse when reading Oregongrown reply on this thread. Maybe we can come to some conclusion about this together.

Oregongrown
Oct 30th 2013, 05:56 PM
Surely this does not mean we should not pray for the suicidal, drug addicts, and reckless?

It reads to me that there is no need to pray for a sin that has lead to death, not that could lead to death - because we cannot know the future. Lying and theft can lead to death in certain circumstances. I don't think we should then assume praying for liars and thieves is vain.

I started a thread on this subject, be glad to have you over there Aviyah, denise, ysic;)

Slug1
Oct 31st 2013, 01:53 AM
I see you edited out your statement about praying here, but you and I (and God) know what you said. So I want to say this, and then I'll be done here. I believe you when you say the Holy Spirit spoke and told you to stop praying for the man, especially because you said you were praying for wrong reasons. But I believe that the Holy Spirit convicts us, and then we get on the right track (hopefully) and pray rightly for the man. But I don't know of anything in the bible that tells me to stop praying for someone that "we feel" is a hopeless case.

deniseHooah... I've prayed for many situations that seemed hopeless. I am a director in a Biblical Recovery Ministry and one night a woman who has been attending for almost 6 months due to her failing marriage, told me that she would like her husband to come to the classes. I asked how much prayer she's invested and she said she had prayed. I told her when the class was done and during the prayers at the end, we'll lift this specific petition to God. She was willing but showed her doubt and it was clear she was discouraged. So I prayed... two weeks later her husband came to class and they remained in class for a full year. By this time their marriage was healed and they were even serving in the church they attended.

I'm confused as to what you mean about editing out a statement though... I'm always editing my posts as I fail to re-read them before I post most of the time.

Also... as for conviction, yes... the Holy Spirit has woke me up at 0-dark-30 and placed specific prayers into my spirit to pray and I do and have even called the pastor concerning the nature of the prayer and come to find out later in the day when the pastor calls me back, he informs me that the Holy Spirit had me praying for EXACTLY what was happening dealing with whatever the prayer was about.

in another situation, I was prompted to intercede for a person who was stepping down from their position in leadership in the church. I was woke up at about 0430hrs and after the prayer, I called the pastor and told him who and what I had to pray about. Later in the day, he informed me and told me that the person called him and informed them they were stepping down ( no wonder not in church that day). I was led to pray for that person daily for the next 6 days and on the 7th day when I was about to begin the prayer, I was told by the Holy Spirit to STOP. In this case, I was done and the crisis was over and the person would return to leadership. That 7th day was a Saturday.

On Sunday (a week after that first prayer early in the morning) the person came to me (I was the lead elder in the church at the time) and testified of their "ordeal" and how in their confusion and trouble had stepped down last Sunday and on Friday, had reconciled the situation. I asked them if on Saturday they had made the decision to return to their position in leadership and they said YES. So that confirmed why I didn't have to pray that 7th day and the Holy Spirit told me to stop when I began to pray. After my discussion with that person, I do recall (this was about 3 years ago) how I never really was prompted to pray that Saturday morning but began anyway...

divaD
Oct 31st 2013, 01:53 AM
Logic? Much of the spiritual moves in the Bible defy ALL logic Dave. If a person moves only logically, they can't move faithfully. Logically doing the work of God is IMPOSSIBLE but by faith, ALL is possible. Compound that faith with belief and TRUST... God WILL do much through such a servant.


We're apparently not on the same page here. When I'm speaking about logic, it is in regards to trying to understand Scriptures. One has to use some form of logic to understand Scriptures, otherwise they can have the Scriptures saying anything they want. As to what you're referring to above, no major disagreements on my part, since like I said, I was meaning only in regards to understanding Scriptures correctly, or at least trying to.

Slug1
Oct 31st 2013, 01:58 AM
We're apparently not on the same page here. When I'm speaking about logic, it is in regards to trying to understand Scriptures. One has to use some form of logic to understand Scriptures, otherwise they can have the Scriptures saying anything they want. As to what you're referring to above, no major disagreements on my part, since like I said, I was meaning only in regards to understanding Scriptures correctly, or at least trying to.OK, that makes sense and I agree. Scripture will divide scripture in a very logical and systematic manner and this is a means to understand scripture(s) and the truth God is speaking to us.

I'm just pointing out that when God is doing the supernatural through a servant, logic hinders. Most of the time when the Holy Spirit is prompting a person, it may not make any logical sense. Take Ananias for example... a servant of God, told to go to a house on such-in-such street and heal the man that's been killing and imprisoning Christians. Moses, told to put the staff in the water, or hit the stone, or just speak to the stone. Now apply logic to these few examples? There would be NO going to that house on whatever street, no parting of the Red Sea, no water for the Israelis.

Yes, logic has it's place but it is also a MAJOR reason why many Christians fail to exercise faith and see the impossible done through them by God.

Oregongrown
Oct 31st 2013, 02:06 AM
Hooah... I've prayed for many situations that seemed hopeless. I am a director in a Biblical Recovery Ministry and one night a woman who has been attending for almost 6 months due to her failing marriage, told me that she would like her husband to come to the classes. I asked how much prayer she's invested and she said she had prayed. I told her when the class was done and during the prayers at the end, we'll lift this specific petition to God. She was willing but showed her doubt and it was clear she was discouraged. So I prayed... two weeks later her husband came to class and they remained in class for a full year. By this time their marriage was healed and they were even serving in the church they attended.

I'm confused as to what you mean about editing out a statement though... I'm always editing my posts as I fail to re-read them before I post most of the time.

Also... as for conviction, yes... the Holy Spirit has woke me up at 0-dark-30 and placed specific prayers into my spirit to pray and I do and have even called the pastor concerning the nature of the prayer and come to find out later in the day when the pastor calls me back, he informs me that the Holy Spirit had me praying for EXACTLY what was happening dealing with whatever the prayer was about.

in another situation, I was prompted to intercede for a person who was stepping down from their position in leadership in the church. I was woke up at about 0430hrs and after the prayer, I called the pastor and told him who and what I had to pray about. Later in the day, he informed me and told me that the person called him and informed them they were stepping down ( no wonder not in church that day). I was led to pray for that person daily for the next 6 days and on the 7th day when I was about to begin the prayer, I was told by the Holy Spirit to STOP. In this case, I was done and the crisis was over and the person would return to leadership. That 7th day was a Saturday.

On Sunday (a week after that first prayer early in the morning) the person came to me (I was the lead elder in the church at the time) and testified of their "ordeal" and how in their confusion and trouble had stepped down last Sunday and on Friday, had reconciled the situation. I asked them if on Saturday they had made the decision to return to their position in leadership and they said YES. So that confirmed why I didn't have to pray that 7th day and the Holy Spirit told me to stop when I began to pray. After my discussion with that person, I do recall (this was about 3 years ago) how I never really was prompted to pray that Saturday morning but began anyway...

I can understand your confusion.

added/edited: I was accusing Slug of editing out a post, I couldn't find it because I'm blind evidently so instead of asking him, I just accused him falsely, I hope someone will benefit from my mistake on this. I am truly sorry Slug. Denise

Slug1
Oct 31st 2013, 02:07 AM
I can understand your confusion.I still don't know what I edited out :lol:

divaD
Oct 31st 2013, 02:08 AM
The demon was lying to throw them off. Believe me, it knows experienced and inexperience when it comes to the Body of Christ doing deliverance. It is good the Holy Spirit was listened to by that one with experience, otherwise, the inexperienced people in the room could have left the prayer thinking about their failure and think they are not cut out for delieverance... which is falling into the lie.

It's like a play book, the enemy does the same thing over and over. I have been called to a delieverance ministry for 6+ years now, I'm sure I have not seem much but what I have seen, it's like a playbook and since I journal EVERYTHING all these plays are very fresh in my mind. I'm told it is because of being "called" to this ministry that I can't forget anything. If this is how God uses me, so be it. But the point is, when a spirit is present and based on what it does, or how it smells, or what it speaks, it is just the evidence that reveals it's lies. Not to mention the straightup listening to the Holy Spirit informing me (knowledge) as revelation is given to discern exactly what the demon is up to in some cases.


So let me ask this then, since I still don't see the logic in any of this, the fact the demon said it wasn't coming out of her. How then does one deliver one from a demon that oppresses them? What's ironic about it, it seems more difficult to cast away a demon that is oppressing someone, as opposed to a demon that is possessing someone. Could the real truth about this be similar to the following.

Acts 19:13 Then certain of the vagabond Jews, exorcists, took upon them to call over them which had evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, We adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preacheth.
14 And there were seven sons of one Sceva, a Jew, and chief of the priests, which did so.
15 And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye?
16 And the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, and overcame them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.


Maybe they didn't really possess the authority they thought they had, and that the demon knew it. And if that's the case, the demon really was possessing the person, which then makes sense why the demon said it wasn't coming out of her.
I realize you likely can't see that as a possibility whatsoever, but I sure can, since I couldn't help but think of Acts 19 the more I thought on this.

divaD
Oct 31st 2013, 02:19 AM
OK, that makes sense and I agree. Scripture will divide scripture in a very logical and systematic manner and this is a means to understand scripture(s) and the truth God is speaking to us.

I'm just pointing out that when God is doing the supernatural through a servant, logic hinders. Most of the time when the Holy Spirit is prompting a person, it may not make any logical sense. Take Ananias for example... a servant of God, told to go to a house on such-in-such street and heal the man that's been killing and imprisoning Christians. Moses, told to put the staff in the water, or hit the stone, or just speak to the stone. Now apply logic to these few examples? There would be NO going to that house on whatever street, no parting of the Red Sea, no water for the Israelis.

Yes, logic has it's place but it is also a MAJOR reason why many Christians fail to exercise faith and see the impossible done through them by God.



Now we're on the same page, since you seem to now understand where I was coming from, and that I understand where you're coming from here, since I fully agree with you here.

Slug1
Oct 31st 2013, 02:36 AM
Now we're on the same page, since you seem to now understand where I was coming from, and that I understand where you're coming from here, since I fully agree with you here.Hooah... now, where to go from this point of understanding :)

Slug1
Oct 31st 2013, 02:38 AM
So let me ask this then, since I still don't see the logic in any of this, the fact the demon said it wasn't coming out of her. How then does one deliver one from a demon that oppresses them? Actually this is a great question. When a demon is oppressing a person, in other words... the demon has the legal right or has authority to pester the person. We have to either discern, pray for revelation from God (word of knowledge, wisdom, etc), or actually interview the person. Based on answers, this always leads to sin that has not been repented of or, is ongoing in the person's life. The sin, or event that "gave" the demon it's right (authority) to begin it's pestering (oppression over) of the person has to be addressed. We have had events completely suppressed and locked/hidden in the minds of people and only by prayer or through a word of knowledge or wisdom, this event be revealed by God as we all pray.

Once the reason for the authority that the demon has is revealed, then it's a matter of leading the person through repenting of the sin, event, or confessing of hurts, and in a most recent event about a month ago, witness to the person and they accept Christ. Then we pray against the oppressing force (spirit) and in the removal of the means it had been given it's authority, then the spirit cannot continue it's oppression action against the person. This is termed... closing a door, for simplicity. Post counseling of that person from last month, NO MORE oppression.


What's ironic about it, it seems more difficult to cast away a demon that is oppressing someone, as opposed to a demon that is possessing someone. Could the real truth about this be similar to the following.No, it's not... is your comment based on experience?


Acts 19:13 Then certain of the vagabond Jews, exorcists, took upon them to call over them which had evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, We adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preacheth.
14 And there were seven sons of one Sceva, a Jew, and chief of the priests, which did so.
15 And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye?
16 And the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, and overcame them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.


Maybe they didn't really possess the authority they thought they had, and that the demon knew it. Well, the answer is in the context of the scriptures. They did not have faith in Christ and were thus, unknown to the demon who would know any who has Christ in them and would have to submit to the power of Christ when used by any Christian.



And if that's the case, the demon really was possessing the person, which then makes sense why the demon said it wasn't coming out of her. Not always... read my answer to Curtis in post #45


I realize you likely can't see that as a possibility whatsoever, but I sure can, since I couldn't help but think of Acts 19 the more I thought on this.Hooah. It can always be a possibility and the Holy Spirit WILL reveal IF those in the situation are listening to Him speak the revelation to them.

Also, look at it this way... when a person who is a medium or a "fortune-teller" and they are exercising divination, they are actually being oppressed by a demon who is speaking to them the info, they in turn are basically relaying what the demon is speaking. Use your authority in Christ and order the demon to keep it's mouth shut in the name of Jesus and see if the medium/fortune-teller can do any accurate divination. Or if the person actually has the demon in them... cast it out, just like Paul did to that lady following him and Silas around.

divaD
Oct 31st 2013, 02:56 AM
Actually this is a great question. When a demon is oppressing a person, in other words... the demon has the legal right or has authority to pester the person. We have to either discern, pray for revelation from God (word of knowledge, wisdom, etc), or actually interview the person. Based on answers, this always leads to sin that has not been repented of or, is ongoing in the person's life. The sin, or event that "gave" the demon it's right (authority) to begin it's pestering (oppression over) of the person has to be addressed. We have had events completely suppressed and locked/hidden in the minds of people and only by prayer or through a word of knowledge or wisdom, this event be revealed by God as we all pray.

Once the reason for the authority that the demon has is revealed, then it's a matter of leading the person through repenting of the sin, event, or confessing of hurts, and in a most recent event about a month ago, witness to the person and they accept Christ. Then we pray against the oppressing force (spirit) and in the removal of the means it had been given it's authority, then the spirit cannot continue it's oppression action against the person. This is termed... closing a door, for simplicity. Post counseling of that person from last month, NO MORE oppression.

No, it's not... is your comment based on experience?

Well, the answer is in the context of the scriptures. They did not have faith in Christ and were thus, unknown to the demon who would know any who has Christ in them and would have to submit to the power of Christ when used by any Christian.


Not always... read my answer to Curtis in post #45

Hooah. It can always be a possibility and the Holy Spirit WILL reveal IF those in the situation are listening to Him speak the revelation to them.

Also, look at it this way... when a person who is a medium or a "fortune-teller" and they are exercising divination, they are actually being oppressed by a demon who is speaking to them the info, they in turn are basically relaying what the demon is speaking. Use your authority in Christ and order the demon to keep it's mouth shut in the name of Jesus and see if the medium/fortune-teller can do any accurate divination. Or if the person actually has the demon in them... cast it out, just like Paul did to that lady following him and Silas around.


I'm going to chew on what you said for awhile, since much of it makes sense to me. As you already know, I used to be a Charismatic in the 80s but no longer am. Even so, deliverance from demons, whether being oppressed by them or possessed by them, the deliverance of them has to still be active in the body of Christ today, otherwise how could one ever become free of one of them, especially if they were possessed, if there were no saints in the body of Christ today with this ability? Personally I would find it far fetched if someone were to say demons no longer oppress or possess folks anymore, thus no saints in the body of Christ is needed to deal with that. As you can see then, even though I'm not Pentecostal nor Charismatic these days, I am in no way anti-Pentecostal nor anti-Charismatic, but I am very very cautious about things these days, since there are indeed many false prophets and the such out there.

One final thing while I'm thinking on it. I just looked at 1 Cor 12 again and am reminded delivering folks from devils is not listed as one of the gifts of the Spirit. It of course is of the Spirit to do that, though. What category would it fall under then? Shouldn't anyone in the body of Christ have this ability?

Slug1
Oct 31st 2013, 03:13 AM
I'm going to chew on what you said for awhile, since much of it makes sense to me. As you already know, I used to be a Charismatic in the 80s but no longer am. Even so, deliverance from demons, whether being oppressed by them or possessed by them, the deliverance of them has to still be active in the body of Christ today, otherwise how could one ever become free of one of them, especially if they were possessed, if there were no saints in the body of Christ today with this ability? Personally I would find it far fetched if someone were to say demons no longer oppress or possess folks anymore, thus no saints in the body of Christ is needed to deal with that. As you can see then, even though I'm not Pentecostal nor Charismatic these days, I am in no way anti-Pentecostal nor anti-Charismatic, but I am very very cautious about things these days, since there are indeed many false prophets and the such out there.

One final thing while I'm thinking on it. I just looked at 1 Cor 12 again and am reminded delivering folks from devils is not listed as one of the gifts of the Spirit. It of course is of the Spirit to do that, though. What category would it fall under then? Shouldn't anyone in the body of Christ have this ability?Casting out demons has nothing to do with labels such as Charismatic or Pentecostal. Any Christian can cast out demons and it's not any "ability"... it's only a matter of DOING due to Christ who is in anyone who's accepted Him and abides. It's due to the authority of Christ and all a person has to do is open their mouth... sure, being led by the Holy Spirit ensures ease in deliverance.

Curtis
Oct 31st 2013, 03:22 AM
Casting out demons has nothing to do with labels such as Charismatic or Pentecostal. Any Christian can cast out demons and it's not any "ability"... it's only a matter of DOING due to Christ who is in anyone who's accepted Him and abides. It's due to the authority of Christ and all a person has to do is open their mouth... sure, being led by the Holy Spirit ensures ease in deliverance.

I think there are a lot of people who would disbelieve that this even exists today. That would be the Devil deceiving them. Most likely we are going to see a lot more of this kind of activity as we approach the end of days. We can not experience or wield this authority beyond our faith. It needs to be taught more than ever.

Curtis
Oct 31st 2013, 03:59 AM
I'm going to chew on what you said for awhile, since much of it makes sense to me. As you already know, I used to be a Charismatic in the 80s but no longer am. Even so, deliverance from demons, whether being oppressed by them or possessed by them, the deliverance of them has to still be active in the body of Christ today, otherwise how could one ever become free of one of them, especially if they were possessed, if there were no saints in the body of Christ today with this ability? Personally I would find it far fetched if someone were to say demons no longer oppress or possess folks anymore, thus no saints in the body of Christ is needed to deal with that. As you can see then, even though I'm not Pentecostal nor Charismatic these days, I am in no way anti-Pentecostal nor anti-Charismatic, but I am very very cautious about things these days, since there are indeed many false prophets and the such out there.

One final thing while I'm thinking on it. I just looked at 1 Cor 12 again and am reminded delivering folks from devils is not listed as one of the gifts of the Spirit. It of course is of the Spirit to do that, though. What category would it fall under then? Shouldn't anyone in the body of Christ have this ability?

Mar 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
Mar 16:17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues;

divaD
Oct 31st 2013, 04:12 AM
Casting out demons has nothing to do with labels such as Charismatic or Pentecostal.


Technically speaking, I agree, but how many non Pentecostals and non Charismatics do you personally know of today that has done this? Excluding Catholics. Also, is it possible for a Christian to be possessed? I'm assuming it's possible for a Christian to be oppressed. But being oppressed and possessed are not the same thing. Can a person deliver themselves of any demons, if they suspected they had any? The reason I ask, according to the pattern in the Bible, it seems another person has to be involved, with that person or persons being the one to speak out against the demon. BTW, sincere questions. I have always been interested in trying to better understand these sorts of things.

divaD
Oct 31st 2013, 04:22 AM
Mar 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
Mar 16:17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues;

In this day and age though, with all the mental illnesses we see in the world, what percentage of it would be because of demons? And what if the person simply has some chemical imbalances going on which have nothing to do with demons? The point being, how can one discern something is being caused by demons, as opposed to it being a legit medical condition of some kind?

Oregongrown
Oct 31st 2013, 04:45 AM
Sure... God will hear prayer but we find specifics about false teachers, wolves and their likes and it has nothing to do with praying for them. It's more about exposing them so sheep can avoid them and for those under them... they will go down following the false teacher.

I have experienced some like what FD described, they will not hear the truth of the Word of God and their unbelief is dominant and drives them... intercession can always have breakthrough... but the Bible also allows us to dust our feet. So, if the Holy Spirit says pray, then I am always obedient. I have begun prayers for such teachers, only to have the Holy Spirit tell me to STOP and never pray again for the situation. I can only assume the false teacher was lost and for those who know my views of the unpardonable sin, such experiences I've had confirmed my understanding.

Yes, I need to apologize, here is the post I said you deleted. No excuse, I just didn't see it again, so I accused you falsely of deleting/editing it out. Again I am sorry,

Denise

PS I'll find the other thread where I accused you, and make a note on it as well.

Oregongrown
Oct 31st 2013, 04:49 AM
I see you edited out your statement about praying here, but you and I (and God) know what you said. So I want to say this, and then I'll be done here. I believe you when you say the Holy Spirit spoke and told you to stop praying for the man, especially because you said you were praying for wrong reasons. But I believe that the Holy Spirit convicts us, and then we get on the right track (hopefully) and pray rightly for the man. But I don't know of anything in the bible that tells me to stop praying for someone that "we feel" is a hopeless case.

denise

Here is where I couldn't find the post, because I didn't pay attention and look hard enough, I just assumed you edited/deleted it. You did not do that, the post is still there, I am sorry for falsely accusing you Slug.

I hope you will forgive me, Denise

Curtis
Oct 31st 2013, 04:56 AM
Here is where I couldn't find the post, because I didn't pay attention and look hard enough, I just assumed you edited/deleted it. You did not do that, the post is still there, I am sorry for falsely accusing you Slug.

I hope you will forgive me, Denise

For some strange reason there were a few posts I made yesterday, and I could not find them either today. Sometime today they reappeared. I think they have been having problems with the Web sight.

Oregongrown
Oct 31st 2013, 05:11 AM
For some strange reason there were a few posts I made yesterday, and I could not find them either today. Sometime today they reappeared. I think they have been having problems with the Web sight.

Well, that may be but it doesn't excuse me accusing Slug, when I could have asked him before I assumed. Anyway, I think I have been taught a hard lesson, so there is something good come of it. denise PS thanks for sharing that though Curtis, really nice of you.

Slug1
Oct 31st 2013, 05:18 AM
Yes, I need to apologize, here is the post I said you deleted. No excuse, I just didn't see it again, so I accused you falsely of deleting/editing it out. Again I am sorry,

Denise

PS I'll find the other thread where I accused you, and make a note on it as well.


Here is where I couldn't find the post, because I didn't pay attention and look hard enough, I just assumed you edited/deleted it. You did not do that, the post is still there, I am sorry for falsely accusing you Slug.

I hope you will forgive me, DeniseHooah! As I stated in the PM as we reached reconciliation... forgiveness was given before I sought after our reconciliation. God bless you!

Slug1
Oct 31st 2013, 05:21 AM
In this day and age though, with all the mental illnesses we see in the world, what percentage of it would be because of demons? And what if the person simply has some chemical imbalances going on which have nothing to do with demons? The point being, how can one discern something is being caused by demons, as opposed to it being a legit medical condition of some kind?This is where the Holy Spirit NEEDS to be listened to and the gifts of discernment (of spirits), gift of knowledge, and gift of wisdom need to be exercised. Not all problems, medical, physical, and mental have a supernatural source such as a demon.

Also... curses, I can toss this in too. Had a person severely oppressed, no demon was discerned but the oppression was obvious. During prayer, a word of knowledge revealed that when the person was a child, their father cursed them. So all we had to do was cancel out the curse... oppression stopped.

Slug1
Oct 31st 2013, 03:32 PM
Technically speaking, I agree, but how many non Pentecostals and non Charismatics do you personally know of today that has done this? There are more than you think Dave. They don't go around announcing their walk in Christ as a person who has delivered people of demons. Even here in life, while I freely discuss this topic, I don't go around with a sign announcing the casting out of demons. Anyway, as they are led in the Holy Spirit to do as God leads and if casting out a demon is to be done, or one manifests, they do the job that the Body of Christ is empowered to do. Cept, not many are discipled in doing what they are supposed to do. Then compound this with false teaching that demons don't exist or that there is not more need to cast out demons. Ya don't think such teaching isn't inspired by satan himself to remove the threat that the Body of Christ can be against his efforts in the world??

Quick testimony, I've preached at a 7th Day Baptist church (on a Saturday of course) and the members of that church were fully aware of the need and purpose of casting out demons. The Southern Baptist church on the next block, I personally know the preacher there and know that he's done deliverance in the past and will when needed at any time led or a demon manifest.

satan has MANY Christians deceived and thus, makes them powerless in their unbelief and in my opinion, DISOBEDIENT to God. Lack of discipleship is one thing... but there are many who even if offered the discipling would refuse it because of their UNbelief. That is just not right when the Bible is SO VERY clear about this topic.


Also, is it possible for a Christian to be possessed? This is a much debated topic. In a very small nutshell... no. The body of made up of three parts: flesh, soul, and spirit. My understanding of the term "possession" is that the demon has entered and is in control of all three. Since the Holy Spirit resides in the "spirit" of those three parts, that means a Christian cannot be "possessed" because the demon cannot enter into or control the spirit of the Christian.


I'm assuming it's possible for a Christian to be oppressed. My understanding is that when a demon has authority over the flesh or the soul of a person, then they are oppressed. Oppression is when a person is actively tormented by a spirit, or it is causing a medical problem in their flesh, Luke 13, and the bent over lady is a great example. Addictions, unnatural fears (phobias), perversions, medical problems, fetishes, unnatural desires, etc can all be attributed to the purpose the demon has over the person who is oppressed. When cast out usually the problem immediately stops as well but not all the time based on what the problem is that the demon is causing.


But being oppressed and possessed are not the same thing. Yes and no. Both are the result of spiritual forces and influences of satan and his forces so in this, they are the same. However, while torment is experienced in both, possession is when the demon(s) can be in complete control and even manifest supernaturally at will because they are in full control. While there are manifestations in or even around those who are oppressed, the person is lucid most of the times and even knows what's happening. A possessed person, is nothing but a puppet of the demon when the demon exerts it's authority.

I have not experienced a person fully possessed.


Can a person deliver themselves of any demons, if they suspected they had any? I have read several books that teach yes and based on what I've read, if a "Christian" is oppressed by a spirit due to past sin (or whatever has happened in the past) and a spirit had gained authority over them at that time and has not gone away... yes, they can follow through with "true" repentance of that specific act they did and effectually remove the demons authority and thus, basically cast it away.

There is MUCH on this topic alone.



The reason I ask, according to the pattern in the Bible, it seems another person has to be involved, with that person or persons being the one to speak out against the demon. This is because I would say that all the examples of casting out of demons was BY Christians helping those who were not. There is only one glimpse of those not with the Apostles or disciples casting out demons and some of the Apostles told Jesus they were telling them to stop casting out demons. But Jesus told the Apostles to stop hindering them and basically let them continue casting out demons... honestly, I am still trying to understand these scriptures.



BTW, sincere questions. I have always been interested in trying to better understand these sorts of things.Yes, thus my short sincere answers. There are many great books that can help you and there are many whacked out books that will not help you on this topic.

Curtis
Oct 31st 2013, 03:59 PM
There are more than you think Dave. They don't go around announcing their walk in Christ as a person who has delivered people of demons. Even here in life, while I freely discuss this topic, I don't go around with a sign announcing the casting out of demons. Anyway, as they are led in the Holy Spirit to do as God leads and if casting out a demon is to be done, or one manifests, they do the job that the Body of Christ is empowered to do. Cept, not many are discipled in doing what they are supposed to do. Then compound this with false teaching that demons don't exist or that there is not more need to cast out demons. Ya don't think such teaching isn't inspired by satan himself to remove the threat that the Body of Christ can be against his efforts in the world??

satan has MANY Christians deceived and thus, makes them powerless in their unbelief and in my opinion, DISOBEDIENT to God. Lack of discipleship is one thing... but there are many who even if offered the discipling would refuse it because of their UNbelief. That is just not right when the Bible is SO VERY clear about this topic.

This is a much debated topic. In a very small nutshell... no. The body of made up of three parts: flesh, soul, and spirit. My understanding of the term "possession" is that the demon has entered and is in control of all three. Since the Holy Spirit resides in the "spirit" of those three parts, that means a Christian cannot be "possessed" because the demon cannot enter into or control the spirit of the Christian.

My understanding is that when a demon has authority over the flesh or the soul of a person, then they are oppressed. Oppression is when a person is actively tormented by a spirit, or it is causing a medical problem in their flesh, Luke 13, and the bent over lady is a great example. Addictions, unnatural fears (phobias), perversions, medical problems, fetishes, unnatural desires, etc can all be attributed to the purpose the demon has over the person who is oppressed. When cast out usually the problem immediately stops as well but not all the time based on what the problem is that the demon is causing.

Yes and no. Both are the result of spiritual forces and influences of satan and his forces so in this, they are the same. However, while torment is experienced in both, possession is when the demon(s) can be in complete control and even manifest supernaturally at will because they are in full control. While there are manifestations in or even around those who are oppressed, the person is lucid most of the times and even knows what's happening. A possessed person, is nothing but a puppet of the demon when the demon exerts it's authority.

I have not experienced a person fully possessed.

I have read several books that teach yes and based on what I've read, if a "Christian" is oppressed by a spirit due to past sin (or whatever has happened in the past) and a spirit had gained authority over them at that time and has not gone away... yes, they can follow through with "true" repentance of that specific act they did and effectually remove the demons authority and thus, basically cast it away.

There is MUCH on this topic alone.

This is because I would say that all the examples of casting out of demons was BY Christians helping those who were not. There is only one glimpse of those not with the Apostles or disciples casting out demons and some of the Apostles told Jesus they were telling them to stop casting out demons. But Jesus told the Apostles to stop hindering them and basically let them continue casting out demons... honestly, I am still trying to understand these scriptures.

Yes, thus my short sincere answers. There are many great books that can help you and there are many whacked out books that will not help you on this topic.

Have you ever read any Lester Sumerall, or Kenneth E Hagan Books? I am not a big fan of reading teaching books as the Lord has taken me a different route to learning scriptures, not that they are bad. There are very few teachers that I would trust. Kenneth E Hagan is one I would consider safe to read. He was a great man of God.

Slug1
Oct 31st 2013, 04:10 PM
Have you ever read any Lester Sumerall, or Kenneth E Hagan Books? I am not a big fan of reading teaching books as the Lord has taken me a different route to learning scriptures, not that they are bad. There are very few teachers that I would trust. Kenneth E Hagan is one I would consider safe to read. He was a great man of God.I am taking a ministers course right now and I have to read 8 books over the next 8 months. One of the books on the list (of about 20) is "Demons, The Answer Book" by Sumrall. This was the first book I ordered. I have two of the books on the list already, "Mere Christianity" by CS Lewis and "Knowing God" by Packer. So I only have to order 6 books.. but, that one by Sumrall is the first to order. Praying on which others God wants me to read.

At this time, I've not read any from either of those authors you mention.

Curtis
Oct 31st 2013, 04:40 PM
I am taking a ministers course right now and I have to read 8 books over the next 8 months. One of the books on the list (of about 20) is "Demons, The Answer Book" by Sumrall. This was the first book I ordered. I have two of the books on the list already, "Mere Christianity" by CS Lewis and "Knowing God" by Packer. So I only have to order 6 books.. but, that one by Sumrall is the first to order. Praying on which others God wants me to read.

At this time, I've not read any from either of those authors you mention.

Lester Sumerall was the first book I read on this topic, and that had to be at least 30 years ago. That was his ministry. Kenneth E Hagan also talks a lot about demons, and evil spirits through out his life. He was born with rare heart disorder, and the doctors told him he would live more than a few months. Jesus appeared before him while he very young and waiting to die. He lived a very long life. He operated in the gifts of the Spirit his entire life, and was always dealing with demonic spirits. He was able through the spirit to actually see them. I highly recommend any of his books, and there are a lot of them.