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Oregongrown
Oct 29th 2013, 03:56 PM
Just so newcomers to the thread know, the topic got changed to more of a discussion on "casting out evil spirits" and whether or not any believer has been given authority to do that. It's been interesting for me, learned a lot. You can post on the OP if you like, or the other discussion, I'm not saying you can't post anything you want though, but maybe we can stick to the same 2 topics;) God bless, denise, a sister in Christ

I have heard/been taught, that the Sword of the Spirit (which is the Word) is the "only" offensive weapon. I have been looking at it like that, and think of it as my "attack" weapon, the Word of God. After a few verses, and a couple of comments I googled, I am not so sure, in fact, I think I was wrong. I feel as if I am opening myself to be devoured by some that love doing that on here, or I should say trying, my help comes from the Lord so watch out;)

I wondered who might be under the same idea/belief, I wonder, still, if I am missing something that would tell me that God is telling us (somewhere in the Word) to be on the attack, I am talking NT as I know many times, God had OT believers/followers of God, attack. But does NT teach us that, the new covenant?

Thanks all, and don't forget, I still have my Sword, just need to learn to use it rightly:) denise, a sister in Christ:pray:

Slug1
Oct 29th 2013, 04:11 PM
I have heard/been taught, that the Sword of the Spirit (which is the Word) is the "only" offensive weapon. I have been looking at it like that, and think of it as my "attack" weapon, the Word of God. After a few verses, and a couple of comments I googled, I am not so sure, in fact, I think I was wrong. I feel as if I am opening myself to be devoured by some that love doing that on here, or I should say trying, my help comes from the Lord so watch out;)

I wondered who might be under the same idea/belief, I wonder, still, if I am missing something that would tell me that God is telling us (somewhere in the Word) to be on the attack, I am talking NT as I know many times, God had OT believers/followers of God, attack. But does NT teach us that, the new covenant?

Thanks all, and don't forget, I still have my Sword, just need to learn to use it rightly:) denise, a sister in Christ:pray:A great book to purchase is called, "Dressed to Kill" by Rick Renner. Equipment is for combat and combat is both offensive and defensive. Each piece of the Roman soldies armor has both offensive and defensive uses and this is also applied to us as Christians spiritually.

For instance... the Shield of Faith. The Roman soldier's shields were able to be hooked together into a "wall" that would not come apart as long as they remained side by side and in unity. When they marched forward into battle this wall would break apart concentrated efforts by the enemy. The Romans didn't wait for the enemy to get to them, they located and moved forward TO the enemy to destroy them and this offensive effort is made possible and successful by the use of their shields in an offensive way.

So... what does the "Shield of Faith" mean for the Body of Christ on a spiritual level when doing battle in the world?

What are the "trouble" spots (where the forces of darkness are in full effect - Eph 6:12) in your local community and how many churches are in unity and together as ONE unit (Body) and pushing into this troubled area to destory the control and authority that the enemy has in that area?

Faith is powerful... but imagine faith applied as the Roman soldiers applied their shields in combat in an offensive way AS ONE, against the enemy?!!

Redeemed by Grace
Oct 29th 2013, 04:20 PM
I have heard/been taught, that the Sword of the Spirit (which is the Word) is the "only" offensive weapon. I have been looking at it like that, and think of it as my "attack" weapon, the Word of God. After a few verses, and a couple of comments I googled, I am not so sure, in fact, I think I was wrong. I feel as if I am opening myself to be devoured by some that love doing that on here, or I should say trying, my help comes from the Lord so watch out;)

I wondered who might be under the same idea/belief, I wonder, still, if I am missing something that would tell me that God is telling us (somewhere in the Word) to be on the attack, I am talking NT as I know many times, God had OT believers/followers of God, attack. But does NT teach us that, the new covenant?

Thanks all, and don't forget, I still have my Sword, just need to learn to use it rightly:) denise, a sister in Christ:pray:

Ephesians 6, in context, needs to be read closely to find that one meaning. Many folks by application - make it say this or that and say this is what it means, but looking closely, we should see what Paul was really saying here.

TBM 11
Oct 29th 2013, 04:27 PM
Great post Denise. I am reminded of the scripture in Proverbs,

27:17 Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend.

Oregongrown
Oct 29th 2013, 04:57 PM
A great book to purchase is called, "Dressed to Kill" by Rick Renner. Equipment is for combat and combat is both offensive and defensive. Each piece of the Roman soldies armor has both offensive and defensive uses and this is also applied to us as Christians spiritually.

For instance... the Shield of Faith. The Roman soldier's shields were able to be hooked together into a "wall" that would not come apart as long as they remained side by side and in unity. When they marched forward into battle this wall would break apart concentrated efforts by the enemy. The Romans didn't wait for the enemy to get to them, they located and moved forward TO the enemy to destroy them and this offensive effort is made possible and successful by the use of their shields in an offensive way.

So... what does the "Shield of Faith" mean for the Body of Christ on a spiritual level when doing battle in the world?

What are the "trouble" spots (where the forces of darkness are in full effect - Eph 6:12) in your local community and how many churches are in unity and together as ONE unit (Body) and pushing into this troubled area to destory the control and authority that the enemy has in that area?

Faith is powerful... but imagine faith applied as the Roman soldiers applied their shields in combat in an offensive way AS ONE, against the enemy?!!

This all makes some sense, but can you tell me if Jesus taught us to be on the offense, I mean "attack" in other words, like football, we have the defensive team, and the offense. I know about the wars in the bible, but I wondering if Jesus has taught us to go out on the offense?

thank you for your help, denise, a sister in Christ

Oregongrown
Oct 29th 2013, 04:58 PM
Ephesians 6, in context, needs to be read closely to find that one meaning. Many folks by application - make it say this or that and say this is what it means, but looking closely, we should see what Paul was really saying here.

I will read it again, my first read today, didn't show me anything about offense, so yes, I will read it again, after I pray, again;) denise, a sister in Christ

Oregongrown
Oct 29th 2013, 05:00 PM
Great post Denise. I am reminded of the scripture in Proverbs,

27:17 Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend.

I really want to learn this, so as I said above, I will read it again first. I am undecided, I just hate that, LOL!!

ChangedByHim
Oct 29th 2013, 05:04 PM
I have heard/been taught, that the Sword of the Spirit (which is the Word) is the "only" offensive weapon. I have been looking at it like that, and think of it as my "attack" weapon, the Word of God. After a few verses, and a couple of comments I googled, I am not so sure, in fact, I think I was wrong. I feel as if I am opening myself to be devoured by some that love doing that on here, or I should say trying, my help comes from the Lord so watch out;)

I wondered who might be under the same idea/belief, I wonder, still, if I am missing something that would tell me that God is telling us (somewhere in the Word) to be on the attack, I am talking NT as I know many times, God had OT believers/followers of God, attack. But does NT teach us that, the new covenant?

Thanks all, and don't forget, I still have my Sword, just need to learn to use it rightly:) denise, a sister in Christ:pray:

I'm not sure what your other alternatives are, in relation to your question. In the context of Eph. 6 and the armor that Paul depicts, what other offensive weapon is there other than the Sword? Certainly, within the NT, there are other weapons (e.g., the Name of Jesus). Is that what you are asking, or are you limiting the scope to Eph. 6?

Oregongrown
Oct 29th 2013, 05:07 PM
I'm not sure what your other alternatives are, in relation to your question. In the context of Eph. 6 and the armor that Paul depicts, what other offensive weapon is there other than the Sword? Certainly, within the NT, there are other weapons (e.g., the Name of Jesus). Is that what you are asking, or are you limiting the scope to Eph. 6?

As I mentioned it was the Sword of the Spirit being the offensive part of the armor, or that is what I was taught. So yes, I am focused on that, but I don't mind hearing about other offense or defense as the main idea of my post is to find it, according to the new covenant, if we are to be on the offense as well.

denise, a sister in Christ

Oregongrown
Oct 29th 2013, 05:09 PM
Ephesians 6, in context, needs to be read closely to find that one meaning. Many folks by application - make it say this or that and say this is what it means, but looking closely, we should see what Paul was really saying here.

Ok, what I got this time I read it, is that we don't put on armor and sit on the couch, so to get off the couch and go out, is an offense move, am I getting it here. Anyone is welcome to chime in, denise

Slug1
Oct 29th 2013, 05:13 PM
This all makes some sense, but can you tell me if Jesus taught us to be on the offense, I mean "attack" in other words, like football, we have the defensive team, and the offense. I know about the wars in the bible, but I wondering if Jesus has taught us to go out on the offense?

thank you for your help, denise, a sister in ChristNotice I stated "spiritual". The whole lesson by Paul is that there is a REAL enemy and that NO carnal weapons will be used effectively against satan and his forces. So as a Body of Christ, we fight spiritually... how did Daniel fight offensively? He prayed and exercised his faith and to have more effectiveness, he also fasted. Imaging a WHOLE church, or a whole town OF churches doing this to overcome the forces of darkness in thier location(s)?

Ever read testimony of bars getting closed because the owners came to accept Christ, or the neighborhood drug pusher coming to Christ... behind these conversions are Christians who will never be known to mankind as they FIGHT constantly by remaining on their knees in prayer when it is TIME to pray and intercede. But they are out there battling and experiencing victory against the forces of darkness and against the wiles (bars and drug houses) and devices (alcohol and drugs) of the devil.

Such prayer warriors are always on the offence because satan is always prowling around and is never tired.

If you get the book, it's more about personal battle with satan, toppling strongholds in the mind, being free when satan wants you imprisoned, how to get free, etc.

While I minister to individuals, I'm more for the unity between churches in this area all together as ONE as the Kingdom of God is moved effectively INTO the surrounding community.

Slug1
Oct 29th 2013, 05:16 PM
I'm not sure what your other alternatives are, in relation to your question. In the context of Eph. 6 and the armor that Paul depicts, what other offensive weapon is there other than the Sword? Certainly, within the NT, there are other weapons (e.g., the Name of Jesus). Is that what you are asking, or are you limiting the scope to Eph. 6?Weres the bandana and shades? :P

keck553
Oct 29th 2013, 05:16 PM
Slug1, I didn't come to this thread until I saw you posted.

I knew I would find salt when I saw your handle on this thread, and you didn't disappoint me.

God bless you.

Slug1
Oct 29th 2013, 05:20 PM
Slug1, I didn't come to this thread until I saw you posted.

I knew I would find salt when I saw your handle on this thread, and you didn't disappoint me.

God bless you.Speaking of salt... do you know that when you consume salty water... you find a GREATER need for MORE water!!

So imagine when the Living Water is salted and people consume it, they will find that they NEED MORE and can't get enough!!!

God bless you brother!

keck553
Oct 29th 2013, 05:29 PM
Speaking of salt... do you know that when you consume salty water... you find a GREATER need for MORE water!!

So imagine when the Living Water is salted and people consume it, they will find that they NEED MORE and can't get enough!!!

God bless you brother!

Amen

"The one who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, will have streams of living water flow from deep within him."

Redeemed by Grace
Oct 29th 2013, 06:27 PM
I will read it again, my first read today, didn't show me anything about offense, so yes, I will read it again, after I pray, again;) denise, a sister in Christ


Hi Denise,

Here's the text in NASB:

Ephesians 6:10 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of His might. 11 Put on the full armor of God, so that you will be able to stand firm against the schemes of the devil. 12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places. 13 Therefore, take up the full armor of God, so that you will be able to resist in the evil day, and having done everything, to stand firm. 14 Stand firm therefore, having girded your loins with truth, and having put on the breastplate of righteousness, 15 and having shod your feet with the preparation of the gospel of peace; 16 in addition to all, taking up the shield of faith with which you will be able to extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.

One thing that every Apostle knew was that the Lord was to return one day. Even to the point they thought, within their lifetime.


Acts 1:6 So when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying, "Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?" 7 He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority; 8 but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth."

And so here's what Paul also knew as he encouraged the Thessalonian church:

1 Thessalonians 3:11 Now may our God and Father Himself and Jesus our Lord direct our way to you; 12 and may the Lord cause you to increase and abound in love for one another, and for all people, just as we also do for you; 13 so that He may establish your hearts without blame in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all His saints.

1 Thessalonians 5:1 Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you. 2 For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night. 3 While they are saying, " Peace and safety!" then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief; 5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness; 6 so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober. 7 For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night. 8 But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation. 9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him. 11 Therefore encourage one another and build up one another, just as you also are doing.

So then, there are over 600 scriptural references to the 2nd coming of our Lord and Savior, and the Jesus opened the Apostles minds to give them an understanding to the scriptures {the OT}, and thus this is the mindset that Paul has in his writings to all the churches, the last days and Christ's return. Oh glorious day!

Now back to Ephesians 6. We've now got the background and history, now to the context. I see this as a to a specific future time, yes having an application to being a student of the word today, but to a future series of events whereas pointing to verse 13 - in the evil day. This, as I read the sum of thy word, is to the day that Satan and his angels will be finally kicked out of heaven and it's now after being kicked out of heaven whereas he will be given some authority and time to set up a 'false kingdom, and will deceive many, and if it were possible, even the elect in Christ [Matthew 24]. [And thus setting the stage for Jesus' glorious return!]

Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven, Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon. The dragon and his angels waged war, 8 and they were not strong enough, and there was no longer a place found for them in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. 10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying,

"Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night. 11 And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even when faced with death. 12 For this reason, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has only a short time."

13 And when the dragon saw that he was thrown down to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male child. 14 But the two wings of the great eagle were given to the woman, so that she could fly into the wilderness to her place, where she *was nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent. 15 And the serpent poured water like a river out of his mouth after the woman, so that he might cause her to be swept away with the flood. 16 But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and drank up the river which the dragon poured out of his mouth. 17 So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

This is a lot of theology with eschatology given in a very short period of time and I don't expect many will follow this line of reasoning [Hermeneutics] unless God leads them as such.

The net of the outcome in application is this: know what you believe, know why you believe it, and make very sure it's the truth that you believe and not an opinion, for if God were to say that tomorrow begins the last week of years, then Ephesians 6 will have a very relevant meaning and thus application for those who are in Christ and alive during this time.

Oregongrown
Oct 29th 2013, 06:46 PM
Hi Denise,

Here's the text in NASB:

Ephesians 6:10 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of His might. 11 Put on the full armor of God, so that you will be able to stand firm against the schemes of the devil. 12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places. 13 Therefore, take up the full armor of God, so that you will be able to resist in the evil day, and having done everything, to stand firm. 14 Stand firm therefore, having girded your loins with truth, and having put on the breastplate of righteousness, 15 and having shod your feet with the preparation of the gospel of peace; 16 in addition to all, taking up the shield of faith with which you will be able to extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.

One thing that every Apostle knew was that the Lord was to return one day. Even to the point they thought, within their lifetime.


Acts 1:6 So when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying, "Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?" 7 He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority; 8 but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth."

And so here's what Paul also knew as he encouraged the Thessalonian church:

1 Thessalonians 3:11 Now may our God and Father Himself and Jesus our Lord direct our way to you; 12 and may the Lord cause you to increase and abound in love for one another, and for all people, just as we also do for you; 13 so that He may establish your hearts without blame in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all His saints.

1 Thessalonians 5:1 Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you. 2 For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night. 3 While they are saying, " Peace and safety!" then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief; 5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness; 6 so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober. 7 For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night. 8 But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation. 9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him. 11 Therefore encourage one another and build up one another, just as you also are doing.

So then, there are over 600 scriptural references to the 2nd coming of our Lord and Savior, and the Jesus opened the Apostles minds to give them an understanding to the scriptures {the OT}, and thus this is the mindset that Paul has in his writings to all the churches, the last days and Christ's return. Oh glorious day!

Now back to Ephesians 6. We've now got the background and history, now to the context. I see this as a to a specific future time, yes having an application to being a student of the word today, but to a future series of events whereas pointing to verse 13 - in the evil day. This, as I read the sum of thy word, is to the day that Satan and his angels will be finally kicked out of heaven and it's now after being kicked out of heaven whereas he will be given some authority and time to set up a 'false kingdom, and will deceive many, and if it were possible, even the elect in Christ [Matthew 24]. [And thus setting the stage for Jesus' glorious return!]

Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven, Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon. The dragon and his angels waged war, 8 and they were not strong enough, and there was no longer a place found for them in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. 10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying,

"Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night. 11 And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even when faced with death. 12 For this reason, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has only a short time."

13 And when the dragon saw that he was thrown down to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male child. 14 But the two wings of the great eagle were given to the woman, so that she could fly into the wilderness to her place, where she *was nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent. 15 And the serpent poured water like a river out of his mouth after the woman, so that he might cause her to be swept away with the flood. 16 But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and drank up the river which the dragon poured out of his mouth. 17 So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

This is a lot of theology with eschatology given in a very short period of time and I don't expect many will follow this line of reasoning [Hermeneutics] unless God leads them as such.

The net of the outcome in application is this: know what you believe, know why you believe it, and make very sure it's the truth that you believe and not an opinion, for if God were to say that tomorrow begins the last week of years, then Ephesians 6 will have a very relevant meaning and thus application for those who are in Christ and alive during this time.

I appreciate all your work here, and I even read it all. I just think that it is leading into so many other areas when I really just want to know about offense and defense. I'm studying, and I have recently read every verse you quoted. I was in 1 Thessalonians because I wanted some further understand on the Rapture I think it was.

Anyway, I am sure you are a wonderful teacher, but for me, I have to take babysteps. I don't think it was wrong or a mistake though that you posted all of this because others might need to read it, and will be able to grasp it all at once, ;) May God bless you richly, denise, a sister in Christ

Redeemed by Grace
Oct 29th 2013, 07:24 PM
I appreciate all your work here, and I even read it all. I just think that it is leading into so many other areas when I really just want to know about offense and defense. I'm studying, and I have recently read every verse you quoted. I was in 1 Thessalonians because I wanted some further understand on the Rapture I think it was.

Anyway, I am sure you are a wonderful teacher, but for me, I have to take babysteps. I don't think it was wrong or a mistake though that you posted all of this because others might need to read it, and will be able to grasp it all at once, ;) May God bless you richly, denise, a sister in Christ

Thanks Denise for being gracious in reply. It was more than milk for sure. The net is the spiritual war is coming and Paul's instruction is always be prepared [for tribulation and trials]

RbG

Oregongrown
Oct 29th 2013, 07:40 PM
Thanks Denise for being gracious in reply. It was more than milk for sure. The net is the spiritual war is coming and Paul's instruction is always be prepared [for tribulation and trials]

RbG

I do want to know it all:lol: and yesterday preferably. That's why I read all your post, I want to see what others have to say/teach;)

divaD
Oct 29th 2013, 07:41 PM
I have heard/been taught, that the Sword of the Spirit (which is the Word) is the "only" offensive weapon. I have been looking at it like that, and think of it as my "attack" weapon, the Word of God. After a few verses, and a couple of comments I googled, I am not so sure, in fact, I think I was wrong. I feel as if I am opening myself to be devoured by some that love doing that on here, or I should say trying, my help comes from the Lord so watch out;)

I wondered who might be under the same idea/belief, I wonder, still, if I am missing something that would tell me that God is telling us (somewhere in the Word) to be on the attack, I am talking NT as I know many times, God had OT believers/followers of God, attack. But does NT teach us that, the new covenant?

Thanks all, and don't forget, I still have my Sword, just need to learn to use it rightly:) denise, a sister in Christ:pray:

Ephesians 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

Is the above verse saying that both are the word of God? Or that only the latter is? As to the former, in what way would a helmet be used in offensive mode? A sword can also be used to defend, and not necessarily mean it's always used as an offensive weapon. When Jesus was tempted of the devil that time, did He not counter the devil's temptations/attacks with the word of God? Wasn't He in defensive mode when He did that?

Redeemed by Grace
Oct 29th 2013, 07:47 PM
I do want to know it all:lol: and yesterday preferably. That's why I read all your post, I want to see what others have to say/teach;)

Amen.... Examine everything! Hold fast to that with is good or true! [1 Thess 5:21]

Redeemed by Grace
Oct 29th 2013, 07:55 PM
Ephesians 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

Is the above verse saying that both are the word of God? Or that only the latter is? As to the former, in what way would a helmet be used in offensive mode? A sword can also be used to defend, and not necessarily mean it's always used as an offensive weapon. When Jesus was tempted of the devil that time, did He not counter the devil's temptations/attacks with the word of God? Wasn't He in defensive mode when He did that?

Hi David,

For consideration, Satan had to tempt Jesus directly, for Jesus was without sin or blemish. You and I however, temptation comes from within us, for we are born in iniquity and are sinful. Ahhh but now the Holy Spirit now indwells us, and teaches and confirms that we are in Christ and Christ is in us, and thus be strong in the Lord, using the strength of His might. It's His protection along with His might.

Slug1
Oct 29th 2013, 08:15 PM
Ephesians 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

Is the above verse saying that both are the word of God? Or that only the latter is? As to the former, in what way would a helmet be used in offensive mode? A sword can also be used to defend, and not necessarily mean it's always used as an offensive weapon. When Jesus was tempted of the devil that time, did He not counter the devil's temptations/attacks with the word of God? Wasn't He in defensive mode when He did that?


Hi David,

For consideration, Satan had to tempt Jesus directly, for Jesus was without sin or blemish. You and I however, temptation comes from within us, for we are born in iniquity and are sinful. Ahhh but now the Holy Spirit now indwells us, and teaches and confirms that we are in Christ and Christ is in us, and thus be strong in the Lord, using the strength of His might. It's His protection along with His might.Dave... RbG gave a great answer here. You see... when a person is SURE in their knowledge of their relationship and salvation in Christ, that Helmet can be an offensive weapon against the lies of the enemy. When the enemy attacks the mind of a person and lies to them for whatever the reason. Now that you can take that ASSURITY in your salvation and see the lie for what it is and thus, render it ineffective against you.

While the Helmet is defensive in nature, when the enemy hits you with a lie and you simply ignore it, you resist it, this is either the Helmet or the Shield working defensively. These lies are referred to as "firey" darts. But when you SPEAK against the lie, this is either of those and also the Sword being used offensively against the lie (attack) of the enemy against you.

The more a person's mind is renewed as they mature in their knowledge of and relationship in Christ, their helment is doing what it is designed to do. ALL the elements of the Armor of God will DO what they are designed to do.

Oregongrown
Oct 29th 2013, 08:40 PM
Dave... RbG gave a great answer here. You see... when a person is SURE in their knowledge of their relationship and salvation in Christ, that Helmet can be an offensive weapon against the lies of the enemy. When the enemy attacks the mind of a person and lies to them for whatever the reason. Now that you can take that ASSURITY in your salvation and see the lie for what it is and thus, render it ineffective against you.

While the Helmet is defensive in nature, when the enemy hits you with a lie and you simply ignore it, you resist it, this is either the Helmet or the Shield working defensively. These lies are referred to as "firey" darts. But when you SPEAK against the lie, this is either of those and also the Sword being used offensively against the lie (attack) of the enemy against you.

The more a person's mind is renewed as they mature in their knowledge of and relationship in Christ, their helment is doing what it is designed to do. ALL the elements of the Armor of God will DO what they are designed to do.

Hi Slug!

I think you asked me on another thread where my beard and bandanna was so I wanted to get it on for you:lol:

Eyelog
Oct 29th 2013, 09:18 PM
Hi Denise,

Here's the text in NASB:

Ephesians 6:10 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of His might. 11 Put on the full armor of God, so that you will be able to stand firm against the schemes of the devil. 12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places. 13 Therefore, take up the full armor of God, so that you will be able to resist in the evil day, and having done everything, to stand firm. 14 Stand firm therefore, having girded your loins with truth, and having put on the breastplate of righteousness, 15 and having shod your feet with the preparation of the gospel of peace; 16 in addition to all, taking up the shield of faith with which you will be able to extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.

One thing that every Apostle knew was that the Lord was to return one day. Even to the point they thought, within their lifetime.


Acts 1:6 So when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying, "Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?" 7 He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority; 8 but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth."

And so here's what Paul also knew as he encouraged the Thessalonian church:

1 Thessalonians 3:11 Now may our God and Father Himself and Jesus our Lord direct our way to you; 12 and may the Lord cause you to increase and abound in love for one another, and for all people, just as we also do for you; 13 so that He may establish your hearts without blame in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all His saints.

1 Thessalonians 5:1 Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you. 2 For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night. 3 While they are saying, " Peace and safety!" then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief; 5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness; 6 so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober. 7 For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night. 8 But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation. 9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him. 11 Therefore encourage one another and build up one another, just as you also are doing.

So then, there are over 600 scriptural references to the 2nd coming of our Lord and Savior, and the Jesus opened the Apostles minds to give them an understanding to the scriptures {the OT}, and thus this is the mindset that Paul has in his writings to all the churches, the last days and Christ's return. Oh glorious day!

Now back to Ephesians 6. We've now got the background and history, now to the context. I see this as a to a specific future time, yes having an application to being a student of the word today, but to a future series of events whereas pointing to verse 13 - in the evil day. This, as I read the sum of thy word, is to the day that Satan and his angels will be finally kicked out of heaven and it's now after being kicked out of heaven whereas he will be given some authority and time to set up a 'false kingdom, and will deceive many, and if it were possible, even the elect in Christ [Matthew 24]. [And thus setting the stage for Jesus' glorious return!]

Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven, Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon. The dragon and his angels waged war, 8 and they were not strong enough, and there was no longer a place found for them in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. 10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying,

"Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night. 11 And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even when faced with death. 12 For this reason, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has only a short time."

13 And when the dragon saw that he was thrown down to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male child. 14 But the two wings of the great eagle were given to the woman, so that she could fly into the wilderness to her place, where she *was nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent. 15 And the serpent poured water like a river out of his mouth after the woman, so that he might cause her to be swept away with the flood. 16 But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and drank up the river which the dragon poured out of his mouth. 17 So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

This is a lot of theology with eschatology given in a very short period of time and I don't expect many will follow this line of reasoning [Hermeneutics] unless God leads them as such.

The net of the outcome in application is this: know what you believe, know why you believe it, and make very sure it's the truth that you believe and not an opinion, for if God were to say that tomorrow begins the last week of years, then Ephesians 6 will have a very relevant meaning and thus application for those who are in Christ and alive during this time.

Hello, RedeemedbyGrace.

This is good work.

We must remember that we are to follow out the spiritual principles spoken in spiritual words.

The day of evil has a literal meaning, yes. But these principles should work with any battle. Indeed, we are to pray on all occasions and especially for preachers like Paul and all the churches Eph 6.

I tend to see the armor of God and the sword of the Spirit as referring to promises of God we rely upon in the evil day, to take our stand against evil in our personal lives, in the church and as necessary outside the church. This passage is highly useful for the disciplines of setting the Mind on the things of the Spirit and walking by faith in His promises.

Redeemed by Grace
Oct 29th 2013, 09:29 PM
Hello, RedeemedbyGrace.

This is good work.

We must remember that we are to follow out the spiritual principles spoken in spiritual words.

The day of evil has a literal meaning, yes. But these principles should work with any battle. Indeed, we are to pray on all occasions and especially for preachers like Paul and all the churches Eph 6.

I tend to see the armor of God and the sword of the Spirit as referring to promises of God we rely upon in the evil day, to take our stand against evil in our personal lives, in the church and as necessary outside the church. This passage is highly useful for the disciplines of setting the Mind on the things of the Spirit and walking by faith in His promises.

I agree Eyelog that the principals of preparedness are what Paul is telling the Ephesians, so then by application since this time hasn't come, they are good for today as well. Preparedness is always a good thing... Eagerly waiting is always a good thing... Anticipating the Lord's return, always should be our prayer

Redeemed by Grace
Oct 29th 2013, 09:30 PM
Hi Slug!

I think you asked me on another thread where my beard and bandanna was so I wanted to get it on for you:lol:

Too funny... Good stuff!

Slug1
Oct 30th 2013, 01:32 AM
Hi Slug!

I think you asked me on another thread where my beard and bandanna was so I wanted to get it on for you:lol:I saw the avatar earlier today, HAHAHAHA :rofl:

God bless you!

Slug1
Oct 30th 2013, 01:43 AM
I agree Eyelog that the principals of preparedness are what Paul is telling the Ephesians, so then by application since this time hasn't come, they are good for today as well. Preparedness is always a good thing... Eagerly waiting is always a good thing... Anticipating the Lord's return, always should be our prayerIn verse 12, the context is set as "this PRESENT darkness", so saying that these verses are for the future doesn't aline with the scriptures. The devil and all his forces are against the Body of Christ then, now and in the future... not, JUST in the future.

In verse 13, Paul writes about "evil days" and we have to find the context for this... so we look at the context of the entire letter to the Ephesians and in 5:16... we find the context and meaning of Paul's use of the term in what days are evil.

He's talking about the NOW (v12 - "this PRESENT darkness")... not JUST the future. Verse 5:16 lets us understand what Paul is saying in chapter six for timing and it is the present age. We find Jesus speaking about only two ages... the present and the age to come so evil days are "now" in this age. Not in the age to come.

Oregongrown
Oct 30th 2013, 01:51 AM
I saw the avatar earlier today, HAHAHAHA :rofl:

God bless you!

Well good, for a few I was worried I'd offended you;)

I know my sense of humor is a bit warped, ok, just warped:blush:

divaD
Oct 30th 2013, 01:57 AM
Dave... RbG gave a great answer here. You see... when a person is SURE in their knowledge of their relationship and salvation in Christ, that Helmet can be an offensive weapon against the lies of the enemy. When the enemy attacks the mind of a person and lies to them for whatever the reason. Now that you can take that ASSURITY in your salvation and see the lie for what it is and thus, render it ineffective against you.

Since I'm sensitive to chronology, you said when the enemy attacks the mind..that then means to me the enemy is the one on the offensive, since the attacking occurs first. So how then can both be on the offessive at the same time? The point being, if the enemy isn't bothering you first, then why go looking for trouble by attacking the enemy first, since to be on the offense means to be the one initiating things. Unless of course I misunderstand what it means to be on the offense? Which is possible I guess. Wouldn't be the first time I misunderstood something simple.



But when you SPEAK against the lie, this is either of those and also the Sword being used offensively against the lie (attack) of the enemy against you.

Again, if the enemy is initiating the attack first, the enemy would be the one on the offense, while the one using the sword, would be using it as a defense. Otherwise we have two on the offense at the exact same time, which I personally don't see the logic in.

Slug1
Oct 30th 2013, 02:09 AM
Since I'm sensitive to chronology, you said when the enemy attacks the mind..that then means to me the enemy is the one on the offensive, since the attacking occurs first. So how then can both be on the offessive at the same time? The point being, if the enemy isn't bothering you first, then why go looking for trouble by attacking the enemy first, since to be on the offense means to be the one initiating things. Unless of course I misunderstand what it means to be on the offense? Which is possible I guess. Wouldn't be the first time I misunderstood something simple.




Again, if the enemy is initiating the attack first, the enemy would be the one on the offense, while the one using the sword, would be using it as a defense. Otherwise we have two on the offense at the exact same time, which I personally don't see the logic in.Well.... quit looking at this logically because when the enemy attacks, the source is spiritual. The attack can be in the form of something physical but the cause is still spiritual.

When the enemy is whispering to a person and they are getting thoughts to do something sinful... this is the enemy being offensive. I agree. Now, while the enemy is doing this a Christian decides he's/she's had enough and they yell out... "satan, in the name of Jesus Christ I order you to leave me alone and I declare that I am a child of God, covered in the blood of my personal Savior Jesus and there is nothing you can do to tempt me into doing that sin!!!!!!"

For the rest of the day, no more thoughts, the mind is at peace... battle is won for that moment of temptation.

Now... was that Christian on the offense or defense while the enemy was attacking them?

divaD
Oct 30th 2013, 02:50 AM
Well.... quit looking at this logically because when the enemy attacks, the source is spiritual. The attack can be in the form of something physical but the cause is still spiritual.

When the enemy is whispering to a person and they are getting thoughts to do something sinful... this is the enemy being offensive. I agree. Now, while the enemy is doing this a Christian decides he's/she's had enough and they yell out... "satan, in the name of Jesus Christ I order you to leave me alone and I declare that I am a child of God, covered in the blood of my personal Savior Jesus and there is nothing you can do to tempt me into doing that sin!!!!!!"

For the rest of the day, no more thoughts, the mind is at peace... battle is won for that moment of temptation.

Now... was that Christian on the offense or defense while the enemy was attacking them?



I would say they were still on the defense. Why? Because they said what they said because of what the enemy already did first. Even if they said it much later in the day, it was still because the enemy attacked them first. That means the Christian never initially started anything. Let me ask you this then. Let's say the scenario is the same, except the enemy never whispered anything in their ears to get them to do anything sinful. Would they have still yelled out to the enemy like that? And if yes, then I would agree the Christian was being on the offense. What I would fail to understand is why though? The only thing I'm in disagreement with you about, as far as I can tell, is what it means to be on the offense. Other than that, no major disagreements I don't think. Perhaps you can come up with an analogy of some kind, where I can see that the person would be on the offense, even if the enemy initiated the attack much earlier in the day?

Slug1
Oct 30th 2013, 02:55 AM
I would say they were still on the defense. Why? Because they said what they said because of what the enemy already did first. Even if they said it much later in the day, it was still because the enemy attacked them first. That means the Christian never initially started anything. Let me ask you this then. Let's say the scenario is the same, except the enemy never whispered anything in their ears to get them to do anything sinful. Would they have still yelled out to the enemy like that? And if yes, then I would agree the Christian was being on the offense. What I would fail to understand is why though? The only thing I'm in disagreement with you about, as far as I can tell, is what it means to be on the offense. Other than that, no major disagreements I don't think. Perhaps you can come up with an analogy of some kind, where I can see that the person would be on the offense, even if the enemy initiated the attack much earlier in the day?Well, I look at it as the enemy attackING, not attacked. While tempting them, some resist, this is being on the defense and the enemy does flee. But they are fed up with the constant attacking against them so they responded, went on the offense and pushed the enemy away. MADE him stop (offense), instead of riding it out UNTIL he stops (resisting = defense).

TrustGzus
Oct 30th 2013, 03:39 AM
Hi Slug!

I think you asked me on another thread where my beard and bandanna was so I wanted to get it on for you:lol:

I'm guessing I missed something good.

Oregongrown
Oct 30th 2013, 04:16 AM
I'm guessing I missed something good.
I don't know if you will think it is "good" but here is the avatar I was using earlier

12042

man, it's even worse then I remember:lol:

Redeemed by Grace
Oct 30th 2013, 01:06 PM
In verse 12, the context is set as "this PRESENT darkness", so saying that these verses are for the future doesn't aline with the scriptures. The devil and all his forces are against the Body of Christ then, now and in the future... not, JUST in the future.

In verse 13, Paul writes about "evil days" and we have to find the context for this... so we look at the context of the entire letter to the Ephesians and in 5:16... we find the context and meaning of Paul's use of the term in what days are evil.

He's talking about the NOW (v12 - "this PRESENT darkness")... not JUST the future. Verse 5:16 lets us understand what Paul is saying in chapter six for timing and it is the present age. We find Jesus speaking about only two ages... the present and the age to come so evil days are "now" in this age. Not in the age to come.

NASB
Ephesians 6:10 Finally, be strong in the Lord, and in the strength of his might. 11 Put on the whole armor of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. 12 For our wrestling is not against flesh and blood, but against the principalities, against the powers, against the world- rulers of this darkness, against the spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. 13 Wherefore take up the whole armor of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and, having done all, to stand.

KJV
Ephesians 6:10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might. 11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. 12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. 13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

ESV
Ephesians 6:10 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of his might. 11 Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the schemes of the devil. 12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.

ASV
Ephesians 6:10 Finally, be strong in the Lord, and in the strength of his might. 11 Put on the whole armor of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. 12 For our wrestling is not against flesh and blood, but against the principalities, against the powers, against the world- rulers of this darkness, against the spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. 13 Wherefore take up the whole armor of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and, having done all, to stand.

So one translation adds "present, three others do not.... So then are you hanging your hat on the ESV?

And if you think you battle Satan now, just wait to if you are around in the last days... :)

Slug1
Oct 30th 2013, 01:18 PM
NASB
Ephesians 6:10 Finally, be strong in the Lord, and in the strength of his might. 11 Put on the whole armor of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. 12 For our wrestling is not against flesh and blood, but against the principalities, against the powers, against the world- rulers of this darkness, against the spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. 13 Wherefore take up the whole armor of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and, having done all, to stand.

KJV
Ephesians 6:10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might. 11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. 12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. 13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

ESV
Ephesians 6:10 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of his might. 11 Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the schemes of the devil. 12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.

ASV
Ephesians 6:10 Finally, be strong in the Lord, and in the strength of his might. 11 Put on the whole armor of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. 12 For our wrestling is not against flesh and blood, but against the principalities, against the powers, against the world- rulers of this darkness, against the spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. 13 Wherefore take up the whole armor of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and, having done all, to stand.

So one translation adds "present, three others do not.... So then are you hanging your hat on the ESV?

And if you think you battle Satan now, just wait to if you are around in the last days... :)I agree with your final comment but the point of the verses in Eph 5 is that this age is about the days of evil. Sure, during the final days of this age it will be worse and the Bible warns us of a GREAT apostasy during those final evil days. As the Bible points out, ONLY those who have accepted Christ can do this apostasy (falling away)... so, YES... as Paul points out, in those days it is imparative to ensure that the Armor of God is not only worn, but USED in battle as well so a Christian does not fall away at that time.

However, what Paul teaches isn't limited to only those final days, this entire age is evil in days.

Curtis
Oct 30th 2013, 03:57 PM
Just a thought...

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

The fruit of the Spirit that is in the life of a Spirit filled saint can not be destroyed or over come by any type of demonic activity. Against such there is no law. There is safety as long as we stay walking in the Spirit.

Redeemed by Grace
Oct 30th 2013, 06:01 PM
I agree with your final comment but the point of the verses in Eph 5 is that this age is about the days of evil. Sure, during the final days of this age it will be worse and the Bible warns us of a GREAT apostasy during those final evil days. As the Bible points out, ONLY those who have accepted Christ can do this apostasy (falling away)... so, YES... as Paul points out, in those days it is imparative to ensure that the Armor of God is not only worn, but USED in battle as well so a Christian does not fall away at that time.

However, what Paul teaches isn't limited to only those final days, this entire age is evil in days.

Well it's quite known that since Adam and Eve, all of creation is in iniquity. But there will come a day and hour that the last days will commence, that for which Jesus quoted the Prophet Daniel in Matthew 24 -- that will give evidence to the season and credence to the prophecy that was foretold in both the OT and NT, for which Paul writes to the Ephesians here and now of the day for a glimpse to how to be prepared and ready.

We all need to have the armor on at the ready, but shows to the specific time that this will have a very keen sense of meaning.

Oregongrown
Oct 30th 2013, 06:17 PM
Just a thought...

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

The fruit of the Spirit that is in the life of a Spirit filled saint can not be destroyed or over come by any type of demonic activity. Against such there is no law. There is safety as long as we stay walking in the Spirit.

I agree with this because Jesus power is in us, and we in Him, so if we tell the enemy to flee, in Jesus name, he knows he has no power over us because of Christ.

Eyelog
Oct 30th 2013, 10:38 PM
There is safety as long as we stay walking in the Spirit.

And how long does anyone stay walking in the Spirit?

Curtis
Oct 30th 2013, 11:46 PM
And how long does anyone stay walking in the Spirit?

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

How long can you keep your heart set on the things of God before you fall back into the flesh? That's how long.

Redeemed by Grace
Oct 31st 2013, 12:40 AM
Well.... quit looking at this logically because when the enemy attacks, the source is spiritual. The attack can be in the form of something physical but the cause is still spiritual.

Not only is this bad advice, but it's also unbiblical. We are to examine everything, logically and naturally as written within the word of God, and to hold fast to that which is truth.



When the enemy is whispering to a person and they are getting thoughts to do something sinful... this is the enemy being offensive.

Where in the bible does it state that Satan whispers to folks? Did Satan whisper to Job? No. Did Satan talk to Judas? No. Those thoughts come from within ones own mind... Read James 1 and see.



I agree. Now, while the enemy is doing this a Christian decides he's/she's had enough and they yell out... "satan, in the name of Jesus Christ I order you to leave me alone and I declare that I am a child of God, covered in the blood of my personal Savior Jesus and there is nothing you can do to tempt me into doing that sin!!!!!!"

Jesus declares how can a house divided against itself stand? We, Christians are the temple of God. Either a Christian has the Holy Spirit within himself or he does not, he cannot have both the Holy Spirit and Satan! Nor can Satan control the thoughts, or even read the thoughts of man....



For the rest of the day, no more thoughts, the mind is at peace... battle is won for that moment of temptation.

This isn't biblical doctrine but your theological interpretations.



Now... was that Christian on the offense or defense while the enemy was attacking them?

Neither, for among men, who would satan pursue that would destroy the Kingdom of God? It's Jesus that he wanted and missed when Joseph, Mary and Jesus escaped to Egypt until Herod died. See Revelation 12 the first part for John's overview. I don't doubt that satan comes an goes from heaven and earth, but all Christians have the Holy Spirit within them to authentic the ownership of Christ, so there is no need to cast out demons within a Christian, cause they aint there.

So when Paul tells the Ephesians to put on the armor and pick up the shield and sword, it will be to the time you want it to be --- when Satan goes from accuser to pursuer. Not today but yet to be, when there will be a battle in heaven and Michael will be told by God to kick Satan and his angels out of heaven and then, the world will then see and experience the wrath of Satan and yes then he will now do miraculous things through the AntiChrist. It is then those who are truly in Christ, they will have the shield and armor and sword that Paul declare, and some will even die for Christ, and that shield and armor and sword will ensure their faith even in death, while others will cast it off and follow the beast to preserve their temporal life for the season.

Slug1
Oct 31st 2013, 01:32 AM
Not only is this bad advice, but it's also unbiblical. We are to examine everything, logically and naturally as written within the word of God, and to hold fast to that which is truth.



Where in the bible does it state that Satan whispers to folks? Did Satan whisper to Job? No. Did Satan talk to Judas? No. Those thoughts come from within ones own mind... Read James 1 and see.



Jesus declares how can a house divided against itself stand? We, Christians are the temple of God. Either a Christian has the Holy Spirit within himself or he does not, he cannot have both the Holy Spirit and Satan! Nor can Satan control the thoughts, or even read the thoughts of man....



This isn't biblical doctrine but your theological interpretations.



Neither, for among men, who would satan pursue that would destroy the Kingdom of God? It's Jesus that he wanted and missed when Joseph, Mary and Jesus escaped to Egypt until Herod died. See Revelation 12 the first part for John's overview. I don't doubt that satan comes an goes from heaven and earth, but all Christians have the Holy Spirit within them to authentic the ownership of Christ, so there is no need to cast out demons within a Christian, cause they aint there.

So when Paul tells the Ephesians to put on the armor and pick up the shield and sword, it will be to the time you want it to be --- when Satan goes from accuser to pursuer. Not today but yet to be, when there will be a battle in heaven and Michael will be told by God to kick Satan and his angels out of heaven and then, the world will then see and experience the wrath of Satan and yes then he will now do miraculous things through the AntiChrist. It is then those who are truly in Christ, they will have the shield and armor and sword that Paul declare, and some will even die for Christ, and that shield and armor and sword will ensure their faith even in death, while others will cast it off and follow the beast to preserve their temporal life for the season.Let me ask you a question... when a person is tempted by satan and those thoughts are entering their mind and the person knows it's not their own thoughts... maybe I'm using "Christianese" when I say that satan is whispering, but when satan is in direct engagement and is tempting a person to do a sin or do something wrong... how do you describe it when satan is "speaking" to them to get them to do the sin?


We are to examine everything, logically and naturally as written within the word of God, and to hold fast to that which is truth.I agree... see this post in another thread:

Logic (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php/251587-Today-s-diagnosis-by-the-Body-of-Christ?p=3064656#post3064656)<click

I was pointing out that when the impossible is to be done by God, our logic can hinder the move of God when we say NO, because it don't make sense to our "logic".

Redeemed by Grace
Oct 31st 2013, 12:57 PM
Let me ask you a question... when a person is tempted by satan and those thoughts are entering their mind and the person knows it's not their own thoughts... maybe I'm using "Christianese" when I say that satan is whispering, but when satan is in direct engagement and is tempting a person to do a sin or do something wrong... how do you describe it when satan is "speaking" to them to get them to do the sin?

I have been redeemed by the blood of the Lamb and went from death to life! Thus..... I am not tempted by satan! The heart is evil...

Matthew 15:15
Peter said to Him, " Explain the parable to us." 16 Jesus said, "Are you still lacking in understanding also? 17 Do you not understand that everything that goes into the mouth passes into the stomach, and is eliminated? 18 But the things that proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and those defile the man. 19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders.


Those evil thoughts that you may have are from you then, and you cannot blame satan -- for He who lives within a believer is greater than he who is in the world.

I guess you didn't have a chance to read James 1:13

Let no one say when he is tempted, " I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. 15 Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.

And as a reminder, every one of us who are born, have sin within us, so Satan's work was done in the garden, so to speak, for with about 7 billion folks, it be pretty hard for him to tempt 7 billion of us at the same time, seeing he's not omnipresent, nor omniscience.

Romans 5:12
Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned—

We should all be in agreement here, for this is not a gray area of our walk.

Slug1
Oct 31st 2013, 02:23 PM
I have been redeemed by the blood of the Lamb and went from death to life! Thus..... I am not tempted by satan! The heart is evil...

Matthew 15:15
Peter said to Him, " Explain the parable to us." 16 Jesus said, "Are you still lacking in understanding also? 17 Do you not understand that everything that goes into the mouth passes into the stomach, and is eliminated? 18 But the things that proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and those defile the man. 19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders.


Those evil thoughts that you may have are from you then, and you cannot blame satan -- for He who lives within a believer is greater than he who is in the world.

I guess you didn't have a chance to read James 1:13

Let no one say when he is tempted, " I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. 15 Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.

And as a reminder, every one of us who are born, have sin within us, so Satan's work was done in the garden, so to speak, for with about 7 billion folks, it be pretty hard for him to tempt 7 billion of us at the same time, seeing he's not omnipresent, nor omniscience.

Romans 5:12
Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned—

We should all be in agreement here, for this is not a gray area of our walk.I'm sorry but your few scriptures arranged in the manner they are and exhorted the way you did say exactly what you say they mean. However, the context of the entire Bible teaches the truth... there WAS NO EVIL in the hearts of Adam and Eve... satan SPOKE to them, he tempted them and by their action of falling into that temptation is what brought in the evil we have today. This continues today as he tempts (speaks to) everyone to sin... and this INCLUDES, those in Christ.

Sorry RbG... I teach ALL of the Bible, not only a few portions and ignore the rest of the Bible. All you do is stick within the limits of a doctrine and omit much truth from the Bible.


And as a reminder, every one of us who are born, have sin within us, so Satan's work was done in the garden, so to speak, for with about 7 billion folks, it be pretty hard for him to tempt 7 billion of us at the same time, seeing he's not omnipresent, nor omniscience. Ummmm, Paul teaches us HOW satan tempts ALL in the world... Eph 6:10-18. The devil does it through all his forces of darkness.

Eyelog
Oct 31st 2013, 02:27 PM
I am not tempted by satan!

Matthew 4:3
And the tempter came and said to Him, “If You are the Son of God, command that these stones become bread.”

1 Thessalonians 3:5
For this reason, when I could endure it no longer, I also sent to find out about your faith, for fear that the tempter might have tempted you, and our labor would be in vain.

Slug1
Oct 31st 2013, 02:39 PM
Matthew 4:3
And the tempter came and said to Him, “If You are the Son of God, command that these stones become bread.”

1 Thessalonians 3:5
For this reason, when I could endure it no longer, I also sent to find out about your faith, for fear that the tempter might have tempted you, and our labor would be in vain.I was gonna post this scripture but I waited... if I posted it, RbG would refute the scripture in relation to what he follows as a doctrine and as we see, attempts to falsely teach with a few scriptures that when pulled out of the Bible, placed in a new context... changes the context of the Bible and what God is teaching us.

I do believe that RbG believes that "he" is not tempted by satan. The Bible is clear in that satan will lie, steal, and destroy and is looking for all he can devour. So we know he continues to tempt all in the world and being a Christian does not make us (and RbG) immune to satan's lies, his stealing, and his destroying that he does.

I've been counseling for many years and in some of the cases where a Christian said they have never been tempted by satan... after much prayer and the gifts of discernment of spirits and after a word of knowledge from God, a spirit of "false hope" was revealed and so... we cast it away. While this was not in all the cases, in some, their beliefs was simply based on what they were taught by their church in the past. Anyway.. that Christian's life changed once free of the demon, their eyes opened and they began to understand scriptures in how they are to wear their Armor because they ARE tempted by satan.

Our battle in NOT with flesh and blood but WITH satan and ALL his forces (Eph 6:12) and here we have RbG countering this with a statement... "I am not tempted by satan" and followed by false teaching with some scriptures out of context and used against what the Bible truly teaches.

If a Christian is immune from the temptations of satan as RbG teaches... then why did God provide us ARMOR, so that we can fight against satan's temptations and his forces?

Christians that are NEVER tempted by satan :hmm: :o

Curtis
Oct 31st 2013, 02:40 PM
I have been redeemed by the blood of the Lamb and went from death to life! Thus..... I am not tempted by satan! The heart is evil...

Matthew 15:15
Peter said to Him, " Explain the parable to us." 16 Jesus said, "Are you still lacking in understanding also? 17 Do you not understand that everything that goes into the mouth passes into the stomach, and is eliminated? 18 But the things that proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and those defile the man. 19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders.


Those evil thoughts that you may have are from you then, and you cannot blame satan -- for He who lives within a believer is greater than he who is in the world.

I guess you didn't have a chance to read James 1:13

Let no one say when he is tempted, " I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. 15 Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.

And as a reminder, every one of us who are born, have sin within us, so Satan's work was done in the garden, so to speak, for with about 7 billion folks, it be pretty hard for him to tempt 7 billion of us at the same time, seeing he's not omnipresent, nor omniscience.

Romans 5:12
Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned—

We should all be in agreement here, for this is not a gray area of our walk.

Man is tempted when he drawn away by his own lust, but what about the enticement that lures them in to sin. Satan beguiled Eve in thinking maybe God was hiding something back just for himself.
Satan, evil spirits, principalities, powers can and do entice people to sin. He can cause certain people to come across your path that are not good for you, or your family, or even your ministry.

Eyelog
Oct 31st 2013, 02:49 PM
Satan beguiled Eve in thinking maybe God was hiding something back just for himself.

Curtis, this is a good, bit more subtle insight. Also, good post overall. But does Satan directly tempt? : )

Slug1
Oct 31st 2013, 03:00 PM
Curtis, this is a good, bit more subtle insight. Also, good post overall. But does Satan directly tempt? : )Do you mean does he himself do the tempting? Or are you asking is he the manager of his forces who do the work of temptation upon people?

Based on scriptures, there are examples of satan's direct hand upon temptation and destruction (Adam/Eve for temptation and Job in destruction, Judas as well as satans direct hand and action was done) but the Bible is clear that since he is not omnipresent, the use of forces is HOW he does the tempting throughout the world all at the same time.

Curtis
Oct 31st 2013, 03:21 PM
Curtis, this is a good, bit more subtle insight. Also, good post overall. But does Satan directly tempt? : )

See post #52 Slug nailed it.

Redeemed by Grace
Oct 31st 2013, 03:25 PM
Man is tempted when he drawn away by his own lust, but what about the enticement that lures them in to sin. Satan beguiled Eve in thinking maybe God was hiding something back just for himself.
Satan, evil spirits, principalities, powers can and do entice people to sin. He can cause certain people to come across your path that are not good for you, or your family, or even your ministry.

I'm hoping that this is clear... Adam and Eve were created good and without sin. Agree? Thus for them, temptation was external influence by Satan.

Jesus, and let's just focus on the Son of Man side for a moment, is the only man 'born' on record also without sin? Agree?

Because Jesus is without sin and blemish, he too had to be tempted externally. Agree?

Whereas Adam [and Eve] failed the external Temptation of Satan, Jesus did not fail and resisted the external temptation of Satan. Agree?

You and I, and all men born outside of Jesus, are born sinners because of the iniquity of Adam and Eve. Every man's nature is sin? Agree?

Thus to every man, temptation is from one's own lust of the heart, and Satan is no longer the tempter but the accuser.

Revelation 12:10
Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying,
"Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night.

Redeemed by Grace
Oct 31st 2013, 03:32 PM
Matthew 4:3
And the tempter came and said to Him, “If You are the Son of God, command that these stones become bread.”

Yes, Satan tempted Jesus, I agree.



1 Thessalonians 3:5
For this reason, when I could endure it no longer, I also sent to find out about your faith, for fear that the tempter might have tempted you, and our labor would be in vain.

Matthew 13:18
Hear then the parable of the sower. 19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is the one on whom seed was sown beside the road. 20 The one on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, this is the man who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no firm root in himself, but is only temporary, and when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he falls away. 22 And the one on whom seed was sown among the thorns, this is the man who hears the word, and the worry of the world and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful. 23 And the one on whom seed was sown on the good soil, this is the man who hears the word and understands it; who indeed bears fruit and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty."

Paul was concerned about their faith, was it real or not?

Redeemed by Grace
Oct 31st 2013, 03:34 PM
I was gonna post this scripture but I waited... if I posted it, RbG would refute the scripture in relation to what he follows as a doctrine and as we see, attempts to falsely teach with a few scriptures that when pulled out of the Bible, placed in a new context... changes the context of the Bible and what God is teaching us.

I do believe that RbG believes that "he" is not tempted by satan. The Bible is clear in that satan will lie, steal, and destroy and is looking for all he can devour. So we know he continues to tempt all in the world and being a Christian does not make us (and RbG) immune to satan's lies, his stealing, and his destroying that he does.

Who then is held accountable for the sin you do? You....or Satan?

Redeemed by Grace
Oct 31st 2013, 03:45 PM
I'm sorry but your few scriptures arranged in the manner they are and exhorted the way you did say exactly what you say they mean. However, the context of the entire Bible teaches the truth... there WAS NO EVIL in the hearts of Adam and Eve... satan SPOKE to them, he tempted them and by their action of falling into that temptation is what brought in the evil we have today. This continues today as he tempts (speaks to) everyone to sin... and this INCLUDES, those in Christ.

Sorry RbG... I teach ALL of the Bible, not only a few portions and ignore the rest of the Bible. All you do is stick within the limits of a doctrine and omit much truth from the Bible.

Ummmm, Paul teaches us HOW satan tempts ALL in the world... Eph 6:10-18. The devil does it through all his forces of darkness.

I don't think that you do, for you can't ignore the scriptures. You can't just sweep these a side and accuse me of something without seeing the value given. Build a better hermeneutic then instead of dismissing the scripture as being one sided.... Prove your point that the sin you submit to is that Satan is telling you to do the evil you do and not yourself. Tell us at judgment day that all the nasty stuff you have done in life that God will accept the excuse that the devil made you do it.



I have been redeemed by the blood of the Lamb and went from death to life! Thus..... I am not tempted by satan! The heart is evil...

Matthew 15:15
Peter said to Him, " Explain the parable to us." 16 Jesus said, "Are you still lacking in understanding also? 17 Do you not understand that everything that goes into the mouth passes into the stomach, and is eliminated? 18 But the things that proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and those defile the man. 19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders.


Those evil thoughts that you may have are from you then, and you cannot blame satan -- for He who lives within a believer is greater than he who is in the world.

I guess you didn't have a chance to read James 1:13

Let no one say when he is tempted, " I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. 15 Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.

And as a reminder, every one of us who are born, have sin within us, so Satan's work was done in the garden, so to speak, for with about 7 billion folks, it be pretty hard for him to tempt 7 billion of us at the same time, seeing he's not omnipresent, nor omniscience.

Romans 5:12
Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned—

We should all be in agreement here, for this is not a gray area of our walk.

Slug1
Oct 31st 2013, 03:46 PM
Who then is held accountable for the sin you do? You....or Satan?I am held accountable... he only tempts. I have the choice to battle him and not sin, or I have the choice to succumb to the lie and be lured to sin and actually sin.

This is why we are given equipment to do battl. It's called the Armor of God and since we are equipped as such, PROVES we are tempted by satan.

RbG... I cannot believe your teachings and I cannot believe you are not tempted by satan to sin.

I CAN believe that you don't succumb to temptation(s), if you battle the temptation. But to say you are NEVER tempted... you are deceived.

Slug1
Oct 31st 2013, 03:51 PM
I don't think that you do, for you can't ignore the scriptures. You can't just sweep these a side and accuse me of something without seeing the value given. Build a better hermeneutic then instead of dismissing the scripture as being one sided.... Prove your point that the sin you submit to is that Satan is telling you to do the evil you do and not yourself. Tell us at judgment day that all the nasty stuff you have done in life that God will accept the excuse that the devil made you do it.I place those scriptures in their PROPER context. Man IS tempted by satan and being a Christian does not make us immune to temptation. I do teach the Bible, all of it, not just a few parts aligned with what I want to follow as a belief but is not aligned with what the Bible teaches.

When you say you are not tempted by satan, are you saying NO Christian is tempted by satan? All this based on a few scriptures pulled out of their context?

divaD
Oct 31st 2013, 04:11 PM
Who then is held accountable for the sin you do? You....or Satan?

Let's say you and a friend are driving along in a car, and that there is a police officer in plain site using a radar gun. You are the driver, and the friend says "I dare you to floor it". You take the dare and floor it. Now there are lights and a siren behind you and you get pulled over. A speeding ticket is given out. Who does the officer issue the ticket to? You or your friend? Had not there been the dare, would you have likely floored it at that time? In this analogy, wouldn't the friend be like a devil whispering in your ear? In reality, Both of you would be at fault. But since your friend wasn't holding a gun to your head at the time, and the fact you were the one driving, you are 100% to blame in your part in this, the fact we all have free will, and you could have chosen not to floor it at the time.

Now let's say it's the same scenario, except there is no friend sitting in the car with you, and a thought crosses your mind to floor it, even though you have never done anything like that before. Where would you think that thought came from if not from the enemy?

Speaking for myself, I feel Slug1 is making perfect sense, much of what he has been saying.

Slug1
Oct 31st 2013, 04:13 PM
Let's say you and a friend are driving along in a car, and that there is a police officer in plain site using a radar gun. You are the driver, and the friend says "I dare you to floor it". You take the dare and floor it. Now there are lights and a siren behind you and you get pulled over. A speeding ticket is given out. Who does the officer issue the ticket to? You or your friend? Had not there been the dare, would you have likely floored it at that time? In this analogy, wouldn't the friend be like a devil whispering in your ear? In reality, Both of you would be at fault. But since your friend wasn't holding a gun to your head at the time, and the fact you were the one driving, you are 100% to blame in your part in this, the fact we all have free will, and you could have chosen not to floor it at the time.

Now let's say it's the same scenario, except there is no friend sitting in the car with you, and a thought crosses your mind to floor it, even though you have never done anything like that before. Where would you think that thought came from if not from the enemy?

Speaking for myself, I feel Slug1 is making perfect sense, much of what he has been saying.OUTSTANDING example of the enemy whispering in your ear. Repped ya!

Curtis
Oct 31st 2013, 04:25 PM
I'm hoping that this is clear... Adam and Eve were created good and without sin. Agree? Thus for them, temptation was external influence by Satan.

Jesus, and let's just focus on the Son of Man side for a moment, is the only man 'born' on record also without sin? Agree?

Because Jesus is without sin and blemish, he too had to be tempted externally. Agree?

Whereas Adam [and Eve] failed the external Temptation of Satan, Jesus did not fail and resisted the external temptation of Satan. Agree?

You and I, and all men born outside of Jesus, are born sinners because of the iniquity of Adam and Eve. Every man's nature is sin? Agree?

Thus to every man, temptation is from one's own lust of the heart, and Satan is no longer the tempter but the accuser.

Revelation 12:10
Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying,
"Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night.

Talking about Jesus and his temptations. Jesus had a human nature just like we do, he also had a divine nature, just like we do now that we are born again by the incorruptible seed of the Word of God.

1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Our rebirth spirit can not sin because it is now the nature of God, and God can not sin.

Since we know that God can not be tempted with evil neither does he tempt any man, Jesus and we our self's can not be tempted to do evil in our rebirth spirit.
It is in only our human nature that man can be tempted to do evil. This is exactly where Jesus was tempted. He was God, but God can not be tempted. It was in his human nature where Satan tempted Jesus to do evil. Jesus had just returned from fasting 40 days in the desert, and the scriptures says that he was hungry. Satan used his hunger as a way to tempt Jesus. Command these stones to be made bread if you really are the Son of God. We Christians are also tempted by our human nature to disobey, disbelieve, or sin.

1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

The , "common to man" is his human nature. Adam and Eve were tempted through their human nature as well. They saw the fruit to be desirous, one to make one wise. These were based on their human nature.
Knowing this gives us great insight to how these spirits will come at us. Usually when we are weak in the flesh because of what ever reasons, this is when the enemy comes to tempt, entice us to sin.

Redeemed by Grace
Oct 31st 2013, 04:31 PM
I am held accountable... he only tempts. I have the choice to battle him and not sin, or I have the choice to succumb to the lie and be lured to sin and actually sin.

This is why we are given equipment to do battl. It's called the Armor of God and since we are equipped as such, PROVES we are tempted by satan.

RbG... I cannot believe your teachings and I cannot believe you are not tempted by satan to sin.

I CAN believe that you don't succumb to temptation(s), if you battle the temptation. But to say you are NEVER tempted... you are deceived.

Where is your scripture?????

And I never stated I am never tempted.... so you need to go back ad reread my comments... I stated that temptation comes from within a man's heart.

And you missed the point...

Slug1
Oct 31st 2013, 04:41 PM
Where is your scripture?????

Some of the verses have been posted that satan tempts us, do I need to echo them for you?


And I never stated I am never tempted.... so you need to go back ad reread my comments... I stated that temptation comes from within a man's heart.

Here is you stating that "you" are not tempted... you even dropped in a !...


I have been redeemed by the blood of the Lamb and went from death to life! Thus..... I am not tempted by satan! The heart is evil...


And you missed the point...You always say I miss your point. What I'm saying is your point is NOT aligned with the context of ALL scripture. But IS aligned with a few scriptures removed from proper context, assembled into a new context and then you teach that a Christian is NOT tempted.

You are not teaching the truth of the Bible.

Just the truth that Adam and Eve were tempted by satan is refuting your teaching. They were SINNLESS prior to falling into the lies (whispers) of the enemy. By those scriptures alone, we see how satan whispers to us his temptation to get us to sin.

Slug1
Oct 31st 2013, 04:48 PM
RbG.... Curtis brought up the 1 Cor 10:13 verse about temptation. This refutes your teaching that you are not tempted by satan. As I stated, I can understand that you "take" the escape and thus... you do not sin, but to say you are not tempted... that is you being deceived. And what you teach... if others believe you, they will also be deceived by the false teaching.

Actually, the 1 Cor 10:13 scripture is refuting enough in that the scripture should open your eyes of your error and that "you" can be tempted by satan. After reading that scripture are you going to continue to feel you can't be tempted?

Redeemed by Grace
Oct 31st 2013, 04:50 PM
Let's say you and a friend are driving along in a car, and that there is a police officer in plain site using a radar gun. You are the driver, and the friend says "I dare you to floor it". You take the dare and floor it. Now there are lights and a siren behind you and you get pulled over. A speeding ticket is given out. Who does the officer issue the ticket to? You or your friend? Had not there been the dare, would you have likely floored it at that time? In this analogy, wouldn't the friend be like a devil whispering in your ear? In reality, Both of you would be at fault. But since your friend wasn't holding a gun to your head at the time, and the fact you were the one driving, you are 100% to blame in your part in this, the fact we all have free will, and you could have chosen not to floor it at the time.

Now let's say it's the same scenario, except there is no friend sitting in the car with you, and a thought crosses your mind to floor it, even though you have never done anything like that before. Where would you think that thought came from if not from the enemy?

Speaking for myself, I feel Slug1 is making perfect sense, much of what he has been saying.

So you blame Eve then too? Good story David but not one that fits scripture. Experience is not necessarily a confirmer of truth. So if I hear you correctly, your friend was then being used by Satan to reach you though your friend's telling you to floor it. So Satan came to you both, desiring to get you to break the law and didn't care about what he did to get to you? So he entered the heart of your friend and told your friend to challenge your driving to floor it? Need I go on?

Netting it out all the evil we do come from our sinful nature, that Satan influenced at the Garden. No one needs to be externally tempted, for we tempt ourselves from the lust of our own heart. This is scripture, and this defines your experience, not that your experience defines the scriptures.

Genesis 6:5

Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Matthew 15:19
For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders. 20 These are the things which defile the man; but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile the man."

Mark 7:21
For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries, 22 deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride and foolishness. 23 All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man."

James 1:14
But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. 15 Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death. 16 Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren.

Slug1
Oct 31st 2013, 04:57 PM
So you blame Eve then too? You answer this RbG... or are you just gonna twist his example all up and make it sound wrong? His illustration was exactly how the Bible lays it out about satan's temptation upon mankind and how he speaks (whispers) into our head and thoughts what are not ours, lead us to do wrong IF we give into them.

Has nothing to do with blame but consequence(s) for our actions. Dave isn't gonna blame Eve, but he is prepared to deal with the same temptations she endured and it's up to him to not fail and not fall into the lie(s) of the enemy and sin if he doesn't fight back.

Redeemed by Grace
Oct 31st 2013, 05:01 PM
Talking about Jesus and his temptations. Jesus had a human nature just like we do, he also had a divine nature, just like we do now that we are born again by the incorruptible seed of the Word of God.

1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Our rebirth spirit can not sin because it is now the nature of God, and God can not sin.

Since we know that God can not be tempted with evil neither does he tempt any man, Jesus and we our self's can not be tempted to do evil in our rebirth spirit.
It is in only our human nature that man can be tempted to do evil. This is exactly where Jesus was tempted. He was God, but God can not be tempted. It was in his human nature where Satan tempted Jesus to do evil. Jesus had just returned from fasting 40 days in the desert, and the scriptures says that he was hungry. Satan used his hunger as a way to tempt Jesus. Command these stones to be made bread if you really are the Son of God. We Christians are also tempted by our human nature to disobey, disbelieve, or sin.

1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

The , "common to man" is his human nature. Adam and Eve were tempted through their human nature as well. They saw the fruit to be desirous, one to make one wise. These were based on their human nature.
Knowing this gives us great insight to how these spirits will come at us. Usually when we are weak in the flesh because of what ever reasons, this is when the enemy comes to tempt, entice us to sin.

Good scripture Curtis, for looking at 1 Corinthians 10:13 this is exactly to the point that man is under sin and that this temptation is not the active act of Satan whispering as Slug likes to believe in your ear, but to the nature of man. Satan's efforts were done in the Garden to Adam and Eve, and thus all men everywhere are sinners... Temptation doesn't go away completely as a christian, but the origin of the temptation as the bible shows is from within a man's heart. Imaging Satan in front of 7 Billion people whispering in their ear to sin against God. It is impossible.... Yet 7 billion people are sinning before Him, because we are born sinful. HOWEVER>>> as I also declared to Slug, there will be a day future that when Satan is kicked out of heaven for good, all bets are off and that is what Paul is warning about.

Redeemed by Grace
Oct 31st 2013, 05:04 PM
You answer this RbG... or are you just gonna twist his example all up and make it sound wrong?

I really don't know why I still spend time with you when you continue to accuse.... maybe because I'm suppose to be patient with you, but you make it hard.

So then, are you an agent of satan tempting me to anger, or would my anger come from within my own heart? :)

Slug1
Oct 31st 2013, 05:07 PM
Imaging Satan in front of 7 Billion people whispering in their ear to sin against God. It is impossible.... Yet 7 billion people are sinning before Him, because we are born sinful. Paul revealed how satan does tempt all these people through the Armor of God scriptures. The forces of darkness are directed BY satan and that is how he does it.


HOWEVER>>> as I also declared to Slug, there will be a day future that when Satan is kicked out of heaven for good, all bets are off and that is what Paul is warning about.It is all during the same age though... all the days are evil. I do agree with you, during the end of days it will get worse. Hey... as it is now leading up to the end times period of "this" present age of evil days.

Slug1
Oct 31st 2013, 05:09 PM
I really don't know why I still spend time with you when you continue to accuse.... maybe because I'm suppose to be patient with you, but you make it hard.

So then, are you an agent of satan tempting me to anger, or would my anger come from within my own heart? :)Nope... just pointing out how you twist everything to include... twisting scripture to fit your beliefs. For example, your answer to Curtis twisted the 1 Cor 10:13 verse to fit what you believe. The Bible teaches that from the beginning that satan is the source of temptation and the result is sin... he started this in heaven, and continues today and will continue until he's tossed in the lake of fire. There will be a pause of almost 90+% of a 1000 year period of time man WILL NOT be tempted.

So in this alone, another way to refute that sin in the heart is not what governs man to sin... there will be no sin during that period of time when satan is bound. WHY? Don't say it's because Jesus is on the earth... Jesus is IN all Christians now and many sin still. It is because they will not be TEMPTED by satan when he is bound.

You really need to take ALL the Bible into full context.

Oregongrown
Oct 31st 2013, 05:13 PM
I have been redeemed by the blood of the Lamb and went from death to life! Thus..... I am not tempted by satan! The heart is evil...

Matthew 15:15
Peter said to Him, " Explain the parable to us." 16 Jesus said, "Are you still lacking in understanding also? 17 Do you not understand that everything that goes into the mouth passes into the stomach, and is eliminated? 18 But the things that proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and those defile the man. 19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders.


Those evil thoughts that you may have are from you then, and you cannot blame satan -- for He who lives within a believer is greater than he who is in the world.

I guess you didn't have a chance to read James 1:13

Let no one say when he is tempted, " I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. 15 Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.

And as a reminder, every one of us who are born, have sin within us, so Satan's work was done in the garden, so to speak, for with about 7 billion folks, it be pretty hard for him to tempt 7 billion of us at the same time, seeing he's not omnipresent, nor omniscience.

Romans 5:12
Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned—

We should all be in agreement here, for this is not a gray area of our walk.

This was a good read for me. I have believed for a long time, and now I see it in scripture you posted. I don't say it was satan tempting me, because I just never thought that. I believe things like "attacks" such as discouragement, depression are from him (sometimes), especially when they threaten me while I am into His Word, and seeking Him with all my heart. The last time it happened was a matter of weeks ago, and 3 very, hard things to deal with came up, problems that were VERY stressful. But in Him, I was able to get hold of His hand and just take one problem at a time, and they were like dust by the end of the day. I'll tell you what I think about spending time talking about satan, and that is, he LOVES it, he has our attention. I was taught quite some time ago now, by a pastor that basically said that very thing. I mean, don't misunderstand, I know he is real, but I know the only power he has is what we give him.

Thank you for the post, denise, a sister in Christ

Curtis
Oct 31st 2013, 05:26 PM
This was a good read for me. I have believed for a long time, and now I see it in scripture you posted. I don't say it was satan tempting me, because I just never thought that. I believe things like "attacks" such as discouragement, depression are from him (sometimes), especially when they threaten me while I am into His Word, and seeking Him with all my heart. The last time it happened was a matter of weeks ago, and 3 very, hard things to deal with came up, problems that were VERY stressful. But in Him, I was able to get hold of His hand and just take one problem at a time, and they were like dust by the end of the day. I'll tell you what I think about spending time talking about satan, and that is, he LOVES it, he has our attention. I was taught quite some time ago now, by a pastor that basically said that very thing. I mean, don't misunderstand, I know he is real, but I know the only power he has is what we give him.

Thank you for the post, denise, a sister in Christ

It is very interesting to know that when the Word of God is sown, Satan comes immediately to steal the Word. He does not want you to believe what you just read. Of course he will try and tell you, that is not what the Word of God means. "Yea, hath God said....?"

Oregongrown
Oct 31st 2013, 05:39 PM
It is very interesting to know that when the Word of God is sown, Satan comes immediately to steal the Word. He does not want you to believe what you just read. Of course he will try and tell you, that is not what the Word of God means. "Yea, hath God said....?"

I read a lot of things here that help me think about God's Word, and dig deeper, I don't agree with many people's beliefs on here but I am helped by what they say to show me not what is right, but also what is wrong. RBG's post was a good post in that I do not believe satan tempts us to do wrong, but he tempts us with discouragement, just for one thing, he plants an idea if we don't have on the full armor.

What I would like to see here is, anyone stopping in Bible forum to see something other than what doesn't look like anything different then a secular boxing/ego match. I hope people will see what happened to me just yesterday when I acted no more like a christian then the unsaved. There are "ego displays" here that it's surprising that people have enough bandwidth to hold them.

PS Here is the OP for those that have drifted from it:
I have heard/been taught, that the Sword of the Spirit (which is the Word) is the "only" offensive weapon. I have been looking at it like that, and think of it as my "attack" weapon, the Word of God. After a few verses, and a couple of comments I googled, I am not so sure, in fact, I think I was wrong. I feel as if I am opening myself to be devoured by some that love doing that on here, or I should say trying, my help comes from the Lord so watch outhttp://bibleforums.org/images/smilies/wink.gif

I wondered who might be under the same idea/belief, I wonder, still, if I am missing something that would tell me that God is telling us (somewhere in the Word) to be on the attack, I am talking NT as I know many times, God had OT believers/followers of God, attack. But does NT teach us that, the new covenant?

Thanks all, and don't forget, I still have my Sword, just need to learn to use it rightlyhttp://bibleforums.org/images/smilies/smile.gif denise, a sister in Christhttp://bibleforums.org/images/smilies/praying.gif

Curtis
Oct 31st 2013, 05:57 PM
I read a lot of things here that help me think about God's Word, and dig deeper, I don't agree with many people's beliefs on here but I am helped by what they say to show me not what is right, but also what is wrong. RBG's post was a good post in that I do not believe satan tempts us to do wrong, but he tempts us with discouragement, just for one thing, he plants an idea if we don't have on the full armor.

What I would like to see here is, anyone stopping in Bible forum to see something other than what doesn't look like anything different then a secular boxing/ego match. I hope people will see what happened to me just yesterday when I acted no more like a christian then the unsaved. There are "ego displays" here that it's surprising that people have enough bandwidth to hold them.

PS Here is the OP for those that have drifted from it:
I have heard/been taught, that the Sword of the Spirit (which is the Word) is the "only" offensive weapon. I have been looking at it like that, and think of it as my "attack" weapon, the Word of God. After a few verses, and a couple of comments I googled, I am not so sure, in fact, I think I was wrong. I feel as if I am opening myself to be devoured by some that love doing that on here, or I should say trying, my help comes from the Lord so watch outhttp://bibleforums.org/images/smilies/wink.gif

I wondered who might be under the same idea/belief, I wonder, still, if I am missing something that would tell me that God is telling us (somewhere in the Word) to be on the attack, I am talking NT as I know many times, God had OT believers/followers of God, attack. But does NT teach us that, the new covenant?

Thanks all, and don't forget, I still have my Sword, just need to learn to use it rightlyhttp://bibleforums.org/images/smilies/smile.gif denise, a sister in Christhttp://bibleforums.org/images/smilies/praying.gif

Yes I know things on this forum gets pretty wild at times. I think all the people who come here believe they have something offer to help others. It does seem like we are just going round and round and nothing is being accomplished. It's sad a lot of times to see the bickering going on. If we are listening with our hearts we will see truth being presented in all this chaos. We just have to look for it. I find myself studying the Word more now being on this forum than I dd before. which is a good thing.

Oregongrown
Oct 31st 2013, 06:09 PM
Yes I know things on this forum gets pretty wild at times. I think all the people who come here believe they have something offer to help others. It does seem like we are just going round and round and nothing is being accomplished. It's sad a lot of times to see the bickering going on. If we are listening with our hearts we will see truth being presented in all this chaos. We just have to look for it. I find myself studying the Word more now being on this forum than I dd before. which is a good thing.

That's what is so good about it for me as well Curtis, I am in the Word, almost constantly while on the board. God's in control, I have to remember that, He hasn't deserted us, amazing He hasn't but we know He hasn't;) denise, a sister in Christ

divaD
Oct 31st 2013, 06:15 PM
So you blame Eve then too?

Let's let Scripture answer it.

Genesis 3:8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.


Usually if folks have done nothing wrong, they usually don't hide themselves like this. Not only did Adam hide himself at the time, so did his wife.

Genesis 3:13 And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.
14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

As can be clearly seen, the whisperer in the ear gets his just due for his part in this as well. But if we read on, God is not yet finished with the woman.

Genesis 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.


Why would He do all of this to the woman, if the woman wasn't to blame about something she had done? The fact God blessed man and told them to be fruitful and multiply before they had ever fallen, did any of that include what is written in Genesis 3:16? No. Obviously then, this was a form of punishment for the woman, in regards to her part in this. And since she had free will, and that the serpent wasn't holding a gun to her head at the time, she could have chosen to ignore what the enemy was whispering in her ear, and continued to do what God had already commanded, and that's to not partake of the fruit of that tree, lest you die. This clearly shows that one of satan's greatest weapon is deceit. This is usually how the enemy attacks us, though deceit. I'm not saying that is the enemies only weapon, just that it's one of his major weapons



So if I hear you correctly, your friend was then being used by Satan to reach you though your friend's telling you to floor it. So Satan came to you both, desiring to get you to break the law and didn't care about what he did to get to you? So he entered the heart of your friend and told your friend to challenge your driving to floor it? Need I go on?

While it could be understood like that I guess, now that you mention it, that wasn't the point I was trying to make. The point I was trying to make is found in the 2nd paragraph in that post, where there is no friend in the car, yet this same thought crosses that person's mind out of thin air. So I then used the friend in the first paragraph to illustrate the devil whispering in one's ear in the 2nd paragraph. But even coming from your perspective, is one to believe the enemy is not capable of attacking folks through other folks they may already have a stronghold over to begin with?




Genesis 6:5

Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Matthew 15:19
For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders. 20 These are the things which defile the man; but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile the man."

Mark 7:21
For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries, 22 deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride and foolishness. 23 All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man."

James 1:14
But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. 15 Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death. 16 Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren


When one throws the devil and his who knows how many demons into the mix, it's no wonder all of the above is true. Let me ask this then. When something is in your heart that is good and pure, did you yourself solely put it there, or did it perhaps come from an outside source, mainly meaning God.? Surely I would think you would have to give God some credit for this, otherwise you wouldn't be in any need of a Saviour, since you could fix yourself without God's help. In the same way then, if good and pure things can enter one's mind and heart via an outside source, thus causing that person to do good acts in life, then why can't the opposite be true, that the enemy can enter one's mind and heart, thus causing them to do sinful acts, assuming they at on any of it?

Proverbs31Woman
Oct 31st 2013, 06:29 PM
Well.... quit looking at this logically because when the enemy attacks, the source is spiritual. The attack can be in the form of something physical but the cause is still spiritual.

When the enemy is whispering to a person and they are getting thoughts to do something sinful... this is the enemy being offensive. I agree. Now, while the enemy is doing this a Christian decides he's/she's had enough and they yell out... "satan, in the name of Jesus Christ I order you to leave me alone and I declare that I am a child of God, covered in the blood of my personal Savior Jesus and there is nothing you can do to tempt me into doing that sin!!!!!!"

For the rest of the day, no more thoughts, the mind is at peace... battle is won for that moment of temptation.

Now... was that Christian on the offense or defense while the enemy was attacking them?

I would like to know where in scripture we are taught to engage Satan in such a manner? It seems to me to be the height of arrogance to think that we have the power to order Satan around. In fact, Scripture warns us against using such tactics. In the book of Jude we are told that not even Michael, the archangel, "pronounced a blasphemous judgment" against Satan but instead said, "the Lord rebuke you" (Jude9). Also, in 2 Peter, one of the features that we are told about false prophets is that they are "bold and willful" and "do not tremble as they blaspheme the glorious ones, whereas angels, though greater in might and power, do not pronounce a blasphemous judgment against them [the glorious ones] before the Lord." If not even the angels of Heaven will pronounce judgment against Satan and his angels what makes you think that YOU have the power to command Satan when you are a lower being?

Thanks to the Charismatic movement, a lot of Christians seem to think that they have power that they do not have. They forget that Satan is the highest created being, with more power than we can ever imagine. It is only God himself that has the power to order Satan and his fallen angels around. We do not have that power. For any Christian to say, "I rebuke you" or "I command you" is an act of foolishness and could potentially backfire in a devastating way. Even if someone throws in an, "in the name of the Lord" they are still attempting to order around a being that they have no business ordering around.

As Christians we are God's children, but that does not meant that God's power has been imputed to us that we can tell Satan, "I order you..." or "I command you...." Instead, we should pray to God and ask Him to deal with the situation.

Slug1
Oct 31st 2013, 06:33 PM
I would like to know where in scripture we are taught to engage Satan in such a manner? It seems to me to be the height of arrogance to think that we have the power to order Satan around. In fact, Scripture warns us against using such tactics. In the book of Jude we are told that not even Michael, the archangel, "pronounced a blasphemous judgment" against Satan but instead said, "the Lord rebuke you" (Jude9). Also, in 2 Peter, one of the features that we are told about false prophets is that they are "bold and willful" and "do not tremble as they blaspheme the glorious ones, whereas angels, though greater in might and power, do not pronounce a blasphemous judgment against them [the glorious ones] before the Lord." If not even the angels of Heaven will pronounce judgment against Satan and his angels what makes you think that YOU have the power to command Satan when you are a lower being?

Thanks to the Charismatic movement, a lot of Christians seem to think that they have power that they do not have. They forget that Satan is the highest created being, with more power than we can ever imagine. It is only God himself that has the power to order Satan and his fallen angels around. We do not have that power. For any Christian to say, "I rebuke you" or "I command you" is an act of foolishness and could potentially backfire in a devastating way. Even if someone throws in an, "in the name of the Lord" they are still attempting to order around a being that they have no business ordering around.

Here is an example of battling against satan...

Acts 16:18 And this she did for many days.

But Paul, greatly annoyed, turned and said to the spirit, “I command you in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her.” And he came out that very hour.

Now... apply this same authority to the thoughts that are not yours and are trying to make you feel unworthy, rejected, or whatever... or to outright sin.

You don't think this will work and the thoughts will continue when you battle satan's wiles and devices with the name of Jesus?


As Christians we are God's children, but that does not meant that God's power has been imputed to us that we can tell Satan, "I order you..." or "I command you...." Instead, we should pray to God and ask Him to deal with the situation.He's already answered the prayer, through Jesus. Now use what He's provided and don't always ask... just do battle with His provision.

Oregongrown
Oct 31st 2013, 06:40 PM
I would like to know where in scripture we are taught to engage Satan in such a manner? It seems to me to be the height of arrogance to think that we have the power to order Satan around. In fact, Scripture warns us against using such tactics. In the book of Jude we are told that not even Michael, the archangel, "pronounced a blasphemous judgment" against Satan but instead said, "the Lord rebuke you" (Jude9). Also, in 2 Peter, one of the features that we are told about false prophets is that they are "bold and willful" and "do not tremble as they blaspheme the glorious ones, whereas angels, though greater in might and power, do not pronounce a blasphemous judgment against them [the glorious ones] before the Lord." If not even the angels of Heaven will pronounce judgment against Satan and his angels what makes you think that YOU have the power to command Satan when you are a lower being?

Thanks to the Charismatic movement, a lot of Christians seem to think that they have power that they do not have. They forget that Satan is the highest created being, with more power than we can ever imagine. It is only God himself that has the power to order Satan and his fallen angels around. We do not have that power. For any Christian to say, "I rebuke you" or "I command you" is an act of foolishness and could potentially backfire in a devastating way. Even if someone throws in an, "in the name of the Lord" they are still attempting to order around a being that they have no business ordering around.

As Christians we are God's children, but that does not meant that God's power has been imputed to us that we can tell Satan, "I order you..." or "I command you...." Instead, we should pray to God and ask Him to deal with the situation.

I agree, and thank you for this post. When I read where Jesus tells satan to get behind Him, I think of hearing people tell me to do the same, but I am more led to remind ole satan "He who is in me has already defeated you"(my words, not scripture quote).

denise, ysic

Slug1
Oct 31st 2013, 06:47 PM
I agree, and thank you for this post. When I read where Jesus tells satan to get behind Him, I think of hearing people tell me to do the same, but I am more led to remind ole satan "He who is in me has already defeated you"(my words, not scripture quote).

denise, ysicMy suggestion is to go to Biblegateway.com and do a key word search of the NT and use the words... name of Jesus. You will be surprised in ALL that Christians do and CAN do with His name. Battling satan is just the tip of all that is done in/by/through/with the name of Jesus.

Proverbs 3:5-7
Oct 31st 2013, 07:17 PM
I would like to know where in scripture we are taught to engage Satan in such a manner? It seems to me to be the height of arrogance to think that we have the power to order Satan around...

...Thanks to the Charismatic movement, a lot of Christians seem to think that they have power that they do not have. They forget that Satan is the highest created being, with more power than we can ever imagine. It is only God himself that has the power to order Satan and his fallen angels around. We do not have that power. For any Christian to say, "I rebuke you" or "I command you" is an act of foolishness and could potentially backfire in a devastating way. Even if someone throws in an, "in the name of the Lord" they are still attempting to order around a being that they have no business ordering around...

As Christians we are God's children, but that does not meant that God's power has been imputed to us that we can tell Satan, "I order you..." or "I command you...."


:bible: from Christ's Own Words {Luke 10 KJV}

17 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.

18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

:bible: more of Christ's Words {Mark 16 KJV}

15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

Proverbs31Woman
Oct 31st 2013, 07:19 PM
Here is an example of battling against satan...

Acts 16:18 And this she did for many days.

But Paul, greatly annoyed, turned and said to the spirit, “I command you in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her.” And he came out that very hour.

Big difference though as Paul was an Apostle. The Apostles were given a certain amount of authority (by Christ Himself) over the spiritual realm in order to confirm the testimony that they were giving. This authority died with the last Apostle (and probably ended even before that).


You don't think this will work and the thoughts will continue when you battle satan's wiles and devices with the name of Jesus?

He's already answered the prayer, through Jesus. Now use what He's provided and don't always ask... just do battle with His provision.

It is not a matter of what I think, it is a matter of what Scripture says and Scripture says that we are not to pronounce judgments (or order, or command) beings that have power that we don't understand. Remember the Seven sons of Sceva? They tried to cast out demons that they had no business casting out and what happened, the demons looked at them and said, "Jesus I know, and I have heard of Paul, but who are you?". They ended up getting their butts kicked.

Oregongrown
Oct 31st 2013, 07:21 PM
My suggestion is to go to Biblegateway.com and do a key word search of the NT and use the words... name of Jesus. You will be surprised in ALL that Christians do and CAN do with His name. Battling satan is just the tip of all that is done in/by/through/with the name of Jesus.

Since some of you are determined to stick with this, I give up on staying with the topic. I don't think things happen by mistake so carry on. I will learn no matter what is posted.

I was trying to google to find out how many times Jesus spoke of satan, His words, the red-letter words in some bibles? Can anyone help me out here? I am just seeing way more of satan around here then Jesus. Just what I see, God knows I have been wrong before. Also, I know we are called to put on the armor of God, so He must want us to cover ourselves with Him, to be protected, like from the fiery darts that will get us if we aren't covered.

Ok, I get all that, believe it 100%. But as we go out in that armor, we are covered, so why even sweat satan? God has us covered. And that brings me to, too much credit to satan, are we giving too much credit to satan? Are we filling up his account when we spend hours talking about him rather than Christ? Maybe some peoples instruction from God is to go out and attack satan all day? I don't claim to know the answers.

For me, I'm going to go visit/talk about Jesus somewhere. If I am in Him, I'm safe from satan, and can go on about what I believe I am being instructed to do.

Oregongrown
Oct 31st 2013, 07:28 PM
Big difference though as Paul was an Apostle. The Apostles were given a certain amount of authority (by Christ Himself) over the spiritual realm in order to confirm the testimony that they were giving. This authority died with the last Apostle (and probably ended even before that).




It is not a matter of what I think, it is a matter of what Scripture says and Scripture says that we are not to pronounce judgments (or order, or command) beings that have power that we don't understand. Remember the Seven sons of Sceva? They tried to cast out demons that they had no business casting out and what happened, the demons looked at them and said, "Jesus I know, and I have heard of Paul, but who are you?". They ended up getting their butts kicked.


Another good post, thank you for this. I'm about to start another topic, and I think God led me to it. More will be revealed;) I am just getting a feeling of ego verses satan. And again, I believe satan is real, it's in the Word, but yeah, stop on by if you like, God bless, a sister in Christ, denise

Proverbs31Woman
Oct 31st 2013, 07:46 PM
My suggestion is to go to Biblegateway.com and do a key word search of the NT and use the words... name of Jesus. You will be surprised in ALL that Christians do and CAN do with His name. Battling satan is just the tip of all that is done in/by/through/with the name of Jesus.

Here are the results that I got using an exact match search (my comments in purple):

1.Acts 2:38
Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

2.Acts 3:6
Then Peter said, “Silver or gold I do not have, but what I do have I give you. In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, walk.” Peter was an Apostle and as such had been given special authority by Jesus to do such things in order to confirm the testimony that he was giving.


3.Acts 3:16
By faith in the name of Jesus, this man whom you see and know was made strong. It is Jesus’ name and the faith that comes through him that has completely healed him, as you can all see. Again, this was Peter.

4.Acts 4:10
then know this, you and all the people of Israel: It is by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified but whom God raised from the dead, that this man stands before you healed. Again, it was Peter, an Apostle, who healed the man in Jesus' name.

5.Acts 4:18
Then they called them in again and commanded them not to speak or teach at all in the name of Jesus.

6.Acts 5:40
His speech persuaded them. They called the apostles in and had them flogged. Then they ordered them not to speak in the name of Jesus, and let them go.

7.Acts 8:12
But when they believed Philip as he proclaimed the good news of the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

8.Acts 9:27
But Barnabas took him and brought him to the apostles. He told them how Saul on his journey had seen the Lord and that the Lord had spoken to him, and how in Damascus he had preached fearlessly in the name of Jesus.

9.Acts 10:48
So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.

10.Acts 16:18
She kept this up for many days. Finally Paul became so annoyed that he turned around and said to the spirit, “In the name of Jesus Christ I command you to come out of her!” At that moment the spirit left her. Again, notice it is an Apostle who is commanding in Jesus' name. The Apostles were given such authority by Christ Himself.

11.Acts 26:9
“I too was convinced that I ought to do all that was possible to oppose the name of Jesus of Nazareth.

12.Philippians 2:10
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

Where in these results does it show all that Christians can do in Jesus name. I see things that the Apostles could do. Did you even actually look at what the results were or did you just see the number and think, "wow, look at all that I can do in 'Jesus name'"? Nothing in the results given say or prove that Christians today have the power to command Satan or order Him to do anything.

Curtis
Oct 31st 2013, 07:48 PM
:bible: from Christ's Own Words {Luke 10 KJV}

17 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.

18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

:bible: more of Christ's Words {Mark 16 KJV}

15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

There is no doubt we have authority, and power over over all the works of the Devil.....

Psa 91:13 Thou shalt tread upon the lion and adder: the young lion and the dragon shalt thou trample under feet.

Heb 1:14 Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?

Slug1
Oct 31st 2013, 07:48 PM
Big difference though as Paul was an Apostle. The Apostles were given a certain amount of authority (by Christ Himself) over the spiritual realm in order to confirm the testimony that they were giving. This authority died with the last Apostle (and probably ended even before that).

It is not a matter of what I think, it is a matter of what Scripture says and Scripture says that we are not to pronounce judgments (or order, or command) beings that have power that we don't understand. Remember the Seven sons of Sceva? They tried to cast out demons that they had no business casting out and what happened, the demons looked at them and said, "Jesus I know, and I have heard of Paul, but who are you?". They ended up getting their butts kicked.The sons of Sceva were not Christians. One of the points of that scripture is that if you do battle, ya better be filled with the Holy Spirit.

OK... since you will not agree with what I have to say and you say that Paul was given authority because he was an Apostle, I will give you two examples of scripture where normal disciples cast out demons and also, elder's cast out demons. Meaning... dealing with satan is possible for ALL in the Body of Christ. You seem to not accept this or you don't believe this but like I said... the scriptures speak for themselves and if you continue to not accept what I say, then at least accept what the scriptures say as they refute you... I will underline portions to show you what I am trying to help you with in what I am saying. YOU and ALL in the Body of Christ are just as the disciples (ordinary people like you an me) were back then and all we have to do is accept this as Jesus points out as well in these scriptures:

Luke 10:
17 Then the seventy[e (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+10&version=NKJV#fen-NKJV-25381e)] returned with joy, saying, “Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name.”

18 And He said to them, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. 19 Behold, I give you the authority to trample on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall by any means hurt you. 20 Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rather[f (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+10&version=NKJV#fen-NKJV-25384f)] rejoice because your names are written in heaven.”

Jesus Rejoices in the Spirit

21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in the Spirit and said, “I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and revealed them to babes. Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight. 22 All[g (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+10&version=NKJV#fen-NKJV-25386g)] things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.”
23 Then He turned to His disciples and said privately, “Blessed are the eyes which see the things you see; 24 for I tell you that many prophets and kings have desired to see what you see, and have not seen it, and to hear what you hear, and have not heard it.”

Now here is some scripture where an ordinary person serving in the position as an elder is battling satan in the casting out of demons, doing signs/wonders, and baptizing people:

Acts 8:

4 Therefore those who were scattered went everywhere preaching the word. 5 Then Philip went down to the[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%208&version=NKJV#fen-NKJV-27182a)] city of Samaria and preached Christ to them. 6 And the multitudes with one accord heeded the things spoken by Philip, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did. 7 For unclean spirits, crying with a loud voice, came out of many who were possessed; and many who were paralyzed and lame were healed. 8 And there was great joy in that city.


Anyone in the Body of Christ has the authority and RIGHT to utilize the name of Jesus Christ as they do the good works God has them do.

Cept many resist this truth... why?

Is it a lack of faith, or they are undiscipled, or are they taught wrong, or are they just not wanting to accept the Word of God and only trust what their church tells them?

Slug1
Oct 31st 2013, 07:52 PM
Here are the results that I got using an exact match search (my comments in purple):

1.Acts 2:38
Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

2.Acts 3:6
Then Peter said, “Silver or gold I do not have, but what I do have I give you. In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, walk.” Peter was an Apostle and as such had been given special authority by Jesus to do such things in order to confirm the testimony that he was giving.


3.Acts 3:16
By faith in the name of Jesus, this man whom you see and know was made strong. It is Jesus’ name and the faith that comes through him that has completely healed him, as you can all see. Again, this was Peter.

4.Acts 4:10
then know this, you and all the people of Israel: It is by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified but whom God raised from the dead, that this man stands before you healed. Again, it was Peter, an Apostle, who healed the man in Jesus' name.

5.Acts 4:18
Then they called them in again and commanded them not to speak or teach at all in the name of Jesus.

6.Acts 5:40
His speech persuaded them. They called the apostles in and had them flogged. Then they ordered them not to speak in the name of Jesus, and let them go.

7.Acts 8:12
But when they believed Philip as he proclaimed the good news of the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

8.Acts 9:27
But Barnabas took him and brought him to the apostles. He told them how Saul on his journey had seen the Lord and that the Lord had spoken to him, and how in Damascus he had preached fearlessly in the name of Jesus.

9.Acts 10:48
So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.

10.Acts 16:18
She kept this up for many days. Finally Paul became so annoyed that he turned around and said to the spirit, “In the name of Jesus Christ I command you to come out of her!” At that moment the spirit left her. Again, notice it is an Apostle who is commanding in Jesus' name. The Apostles were given such authority by Christ Himself.

11.Acts 26:9
“I too was convinced that I ought to do all that was possible to oppose the name of Jesus of Nazareth.

12.Philippians 2:10
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

Where in these results does it show all that Christians can do in Jesus name. I see things that the Apostles could do. Did you even actually look at what the results were or did you just see the number and think, "wow, look at all that I can do in 'Jesus name'"? Nothing in the results given say or prove that Christians today have the power to command Satan or order Him to do anything.ALL in the Body of Christ can do any of this.

Are you telling me that when your pastor baptized you in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit... you argued with your pastor that he can't do that because he's NOT an Apostle... like you are arguing now?

If you are honest in this thread concerning your pastor being able to baptize in the name of Jesus, at least also be honest with how he would also be able to cast out a demon also in the name of Jesus.

Slug1
Oct 31st 2013, 08:04 PM
Another good post, thank you for this. I'm about to start another topic, and I think God led me to it. More will be revealed;) I am just getting a feeling of ego verses satan. And again, I believe satan is real, it's in the Word, but yeah, stop on by if you like, God bless, a sister in Christ, deniseI did just reveal more through scripture. What P1W states is not aligned with the scriptures. Anyone who is a Christian can baptize in the name of Jesus, just like they can also battle against satan in the name of Jesus. These tasks were not limited to ONLY the Apostles.

As a matter of fact, all in the name of Jesus is for ALL who are believers and ya want to know how I know this... because Jesus said so.

Look at the fruit of the words... believer or unbeliever?

Here is what Jesus said since no one wants to listen to any post and based on continued replies, they even ignore scripture too.

Mark 16:15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18 theywill take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”

THOSE WHO BELIEVE... Jesus didn't say that ONLY the Apostles can baptize, cast out demons, etc... He said, THOSE WHO BELIEVE.

I believe, many do and many others do not... who are you gonna listen to?

Me... I listen to the Word of God, I listen to the Holy Spirit and neither say that ONLY the Apostles can do it all.

Again... look at the fruit of words and see what is and what is not aligned with the Word of God.

If only the Apostles could do what P1W says... it would have all ended with the death of the last Apostle. No more baptizing, no more casting out of demons, not nothing.

Proverbs31Woman
Oct 31st 2013, 08:07 PM
from Christ's Own Words {Luke 10 KJV}

17 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.

18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

more of Christ's Words {Mark 16 KJV}

15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

Again, these were words spoken to a select group of Christians, not all Christians through all time. In Luke 10, Notice that Jesus is speaking to 72 disciples that He had commissioned in addition to His Apostles to preach. These were people who were given special authority. In verse 17, when they returned and he tells them, "behold, I have given you authority to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall hurt you." he was speaking to those 72, not all Christians throughout all times. Again we see in Mark 16 that Jesus is speaking to the 11 Apostles, not all Christians throughout all times. Also, The earliest and best manuscripts do not contain this passage of Mark and therefore, no doctrine should be developed solely from this passage alone. The parallel passage in Matthew does not mention the miracles that Mark does. But, even so, this was said to the Apostles, therefore, it was the Apostles who would be able to do miracles.

Slug1
Oct 31st 2013, 08:12 PM
Again, these were words spoken to a select group of Christians, not all Christians through all time. In Luke 10, Notice that Jesus is speaking to 72 disciples that He had commissioned in addition to He Apostles do preach. These were people who were given special authority. In verse 17, when they returned and he tells them, "behold, I have given you authority to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall hurt you." he was speaking to those 72, not all Christians throughout all times. Again we see in Mark 16 that Jesus is speaking to the 11 Apostles, not all Christians throughout all times. Also, The earliest and best manuscripts do not contain this passage of Mark and therefore, no doctrine should be developed solely from this passage alone. The parallel passage in Matthew does not mention the miracles that Mark does. But, even so, this was said to the Apostles, therefore, it was the Apostles who would be able to do miracles.Well based on what Christians today are doing out there in the world... you are not understanding those scriptures and that they apply to us all in the Body of Christ. Believe me, your unbelief is not stopping God from using those who accept and believe what He says in those scriptures.

Did your pastor baptize you in the name of Jesus? If he did, did you argue with him that he can't do that based on all you are now arguing?

Or are you just gonna ignore these two questions and keep arguing with your unbelief?

Proverbs 3:5-7
Oct 31st 2013, 08:17 PM
Quote Originally Posted by Slug1
Speaking of salt... do you know that when you consume salty water... you find a GREATER need for MORE water!!

So imagine when the Living Water is salted and people consume it, they will find that they NEED MORE and can't get enough!!!

God bless you brother!



Amen

"The one who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, will have streams of living water flow from deep within him."


I'll second that :amen: in appreciation of both these posts!

Curtis
Oct 31st 2013, 08:19 PM
Again, these were words spoken to a select group of Christians, not all Christians through all time. In Luke 10, Notice that Jesus is speaking to 72 disciples that He had commissioned in addition to His Apostles to preach. These were people who were given special authority. In verse 17, when they returned and he tells them, "behold, I have given you authority to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall hurt you." he was speaking to those 72, not all Christians throughout all times. Again we see in Mark 16 that Jesus is speaking to the 11 Apostles, not all Christians throughout all times. Also, The earliest and best manuscripts do not contain this passage of Mark and therefore, no doctrine should be developed solely from this passage alone. The parallel passage in Matthew does not mention the miracles that Mark does. But, even so, this was said to the Apostles, therefore, it was the Apostles who would be able to do miracles.

Surely that would not make any sense to give this power to only a select group of people and not the Church! They are all dead, what about us in the here and now?

Eph 6:12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.

Mar 16:17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues;

Any body who is a "believer" has power over the Satan.

Slug1
Oct 31st 2013, 08:29 PM
Again, these were words spoken to a select group of Christians, not all Christians through all time. In Luke 10, Notice that Jesus is speaking to 72 disciples that He had commissioned in addition to His Apostles to preach. These were people who were given special authority. In verse 17, when they returned and he tells them, "behold, I have given you authority to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall hurt you." he was speaking to those 72, not all Christians throughout all times. Again we see in Mark 16 that Jesus is speaking to the 11 Apostles, not all Christians throughout all times. Also, The earliest and best manuscripts do not contain this passage of Mark and therefore, no doctrine should be developed solely from this passage alone. The parallel passage in Matthew does not mention the miracles that Mark does. But, even so, this was said to the Apostles, therefore, it was the Apostles who would be able to do miracles.Here is a post I did back a couple years ago (I think). It will help you see the progression Jesus taught as He began to prepare and finally let the Body of Christ LOOSE upon the entire world:


Doctrine isn't built on that single scripture... here I'll show you how Jesus built this up for the Body of Christ.

First He informs the Body of Christ that He'll be establishing a Body that will have authority and this will be reflected by the empowerment He gives us. Please read this scripture:

Mark 3:14 Then He appointed twelve,[a] that they might be with Him and that He might send them out to preach, 15 and to have power to heal sicknesses and to cast out demons:

With this established for the tomorrow's Body of Christ, He then allowed just the 12 disciples to heal and cast out. Please read these scriptures:

Mark 6: 12 So they went out and preached that people should repent. 13 And they cast out many demons, and anointed with oil many who were sick, and healed them.

Matthew 10:1 And when He had called His twelve disciples to Him, He gave them power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease.

Once Jesus had this established for tomorrow's Body of Christ, He then did this again but this time with a whole bunch more disciples. Please read these scriptures:

Luke 10: 1 After these things the Lord appointed seventy others also,[a] and sent them two by two before His face into every city and place where He Himself was about to go.

v17 Then the seventy[e] returned with joy, saying, “Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name.”

So... what about tomorrow's Body of Christ... all those who came after the Apostles?

Is Christ in all who are part of the Body of Christ?

Is it Jesus who is actually casting out the demons and this is by the authority He's given to us by His name?

Please read this scripture:

Luke 13:32 And He said to them, “Go, tell that fox, ‘Behold, I cast out demons and perform cures today and tomorrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.’

Then Jesus finally does give the Commission to the Body of Christ, for us to follow as the 12 did first, then all those other 70, now... us!

Mark 16:16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18 they[a] will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”

So... you say that the Mark 16 scripture means nothing even though there are many scriptures that support the meaning of those scriptures from Mark. If the mark 16 scripture NEVER existed, the message of all those others mean the SAME message as the CONSOLIDATED Mark 16, means!!

You can deny the Mark 16 scriptures but that means you must also deny the course of scripture laid out leading up to "tomorrow's" Body of Christ. That is TODAY'S Body of Christ and TOMORROW'S Body of Christ actually.

See all those, "they's" and "those's" and the one "them" in that Mark 16 scriptures? All of they/those/them, are you, me, everyone in the Body of Christ.

So... it's not doctrine at all... it's called, OBEDIENCE to the Word of God!! So just get out there in the world and DO what the Commission says to do.

Doctrine is what MAKES people in the Body of Christ deny the scriptures.

Let me show you something else that I pray OPENS your eyes. Please read these scriptures:

Mark 9: 38 Now John answered Him, saying, “Teacher, we saw someone who does not follow us casting out demons in Your name, and we forbade him because he does not follow us.” 39 But Jesus said, “Do not forbid him, for no one who works a miracle in My name can soon afterward speak evil of Me.

Luke 9:49 Now John answered and said, “Master, we saw someone casting out demons in Your name, and we forbade him because he does not follow with us.” 50 But Jesus said to him, “Do not forbid him, for he who is not against us is on our side.”

Now, this is what I'd like to open your eyes to... You see how the 12 disciples complained to Jesus and basically whined that others were casting out demon's in His name... complaining because those doing "their" work were not following Jesus.

Think about this long and hard... pray about this while you weigh this:

YOU are doing what those 12 inexperienced (at that time in their growth with Christ) disciples did. They didn't have much or ANY experience and they see others casting out demons and they TRIED TO STOP THEM, just like you are trying to stop all who you encounter who are out in the world who happen to cast out demons!!!

You really need to open your eyes to this... just because you are inexperienced doesn't mean that others in the Body of Christ have to stop because you don't accept it.

Casting out demons is a "part" of the Commission. A part you... deny.

Slug1
Oct 31st 2013, 08:31 PM
Surely that would not make any sense to give this power to only a select group of people and not the Church! They are all dead, what about us in the here and now?

Eph 6:12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.

Mar 16:17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues;

Any body who is a "believer" has power over the Satan.Exactly.

Quoting you to have your post said again :lol:

Proverbs 3:5-7
Oct 31st 2013, 08:33 PM
Big difference though as Paul was an Apostle. The Apostles were given a certain amount of authority (by Christ Himself) over the spiritual realm in order to confirm the testimony that they were giving. This authority died with the last Apostle (and probably ended even before that)...

...It is not a matter of what I think, it is a matter of what Scripture says...


Acts 2 {KJV}

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Proverbs 3:5-7
Oct 31st 2013, 08:43 PM
Since some of you are determined to stick with this, I give up on staying with the topic. I don't think things happen by mistake so carry on. I will learn no matter what is posted.



pardon me, but; since the Power of God IS directly related to the Armor of God??? how is that NOT staying on topic :confused

Oregongrown
Oct 31st 2013, 08:43 PM
Here are the results that I got using an exact match search (my comments in purple):

1.Acts 2:38
Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

2.Acts 3:6
Then Peter said, “Silver or gold I do not have, but what I do have I give you. In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, walk.” Peter was an Apostle and as such had been given special authority by Jesus to do such things in order to confirm the testimony that he was giving.


3.Acts 3:16
By faith in the name of Jesus, this man whom you see and know was made strong. It is Jesus’ name and the faith that comes through him that has completely healed him, as you can all see. Again, this was Peter.

4.Acts 4:10
then know this, you and all the people of Israel: It is by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified but whom God raised from the dead, that this man stands before you healed. Again, it was Peter, an Apostle, who healed the man in Jesus' name.

5.Acts 4:18
Then they called them in again and commanded them not to speak or teach at all in the name of Jesus.

6.Acts 5:40
His speech persuaded them. They called the apostles in and had them flogged. Then they ordered them not to speak in the name of Jesus, and let them go.

7.Acts 8:12
But when they believed Philip as he proclaimed the good news of the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

8.Acts 9:27
But Barnabas took him and brought him to the apostles. He told them how Saul on his journey had seen the Lord and that the Lord had spoken to him, and how in Damascus he had preached fearlessly in the name of Jesus.

9.Acts 10:48
So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.

10.Acts 16:18
She kept this up for many days. Finally Paul became so annoyed that he turned around and said to the spirit, “In the name of Jesus Christ I command you to come out of her!” At that moment the spirit left her. Again, notice it is an Apostle who is commanding in Jesus' name. The Apostles were given such authority by Christ Himself.

11.Acts 26:9
“I too was convinced that I ought to do all that was possible to oppose the name of Jesus of Nazareth.

12.Philippians 2:10
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

Where in these results does it show all that Christians can do in Jesus name. I see things that the Apostles could do. Did you even actually look at what the results were or did you just see the number and think, "wow, look at all that I can do in 'Jesus name'"? Nothing in the results given say or prove that Christians today have the power to command Satan or order Him to do anything.

Oh this is a wonderful eyeopener for me. I have been taught many things from the bible, but sadly, only started reading it for myself about 2 months ago. You are right, these scriptures are about the Apostles, this is God's Word. Someone may argue it, no doubt, but they can't argue this is scripture. Thank you so much, you have taught me a lot!! denise, ysic PS One thing for sure you've shown me to keep reading God's Word for myself;)

Proverbs31Woman
Oct 31st 2013, 08:43 PM
Luke 10:
17 Then the seventy[e] returned with joy, saying, “Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name.”

18 And He said to them, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. 19 Behold, I give you the authority to trample on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall by any means hurt you. 20 Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rather[f] rejoice because your names are written in heaven.”

Jesus Rejoices in the Spirit

21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in the Spirit and said, “I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and revealed them to babes. Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight. 22 All[g] things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.”
23 Then He turned to His disciples and said privately, “Blessed are the eyes which see the things you see; 24 for I tell you that many prophets and kings have desired to see what you see, and have not seen it, and to hear what you hear, and have not heard it.”

Again, this was a select group that were commissioned by Christ and were given special authority. there is nothing in the commissioning of the passage of the 72 that says that that passage was to be taken to include all Christians throughout all times.


Now here is some scripture where an ordinary person serving in the position as an elder is battling satan in the casting out of demons, doing signs/wonders, and baptizing people:

Acts 8:

4 Therefore those who were scattered went everywhere preaching the word. 5 Then Philip went down to the[a] city of Samaria and preached Christ to them. 6 And the multitudes with one accord heeded the things spoken by Philip, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did. 7 For unclean spirits, crying with a loud voice, came out of many who were possessed; and many who were paralyzed and lame were healed. 8 And there was great joy in that city.

Philip was not an ordinary person but was someone who was appointed by the Apostles for a special task and therefore the signs and wonders that he did and that Stephen (and I am sure the others that were appointed with them) did were done for the purpose of proving that they were who they claimed to be. It gave evidence that the testimony that they were giving was from God. Such evidence was extremely important when the Church was young and going out to new nations, but it is no longer needed today.


Anyone in the Body of Christ has the authority and RIGHT to utilize the name of Jesus Christ as they do the good works God has them do.

Cept many resist this truth... why?

Is it a lack of faith, or they are undiscipled, or are they taught wrong, or are they just not wanting to accept the Word of God and only trust what their church tells them?

I reject it for several reasons. One, because 2 Peter and Jude say that not even the angels command Satan. Two, because the modern version of such "miracles" consists of "pastors" who do things like punch people in the face, stomach, etc to "heal" them, their followers writhe on the floor, they laugh uncontrollably at nothing, they act drunk and refer to it as being "drunk in the Spirit", they dance with rattlesnakes, they see Satan, demons, and angels around every corner, they are obsessed with the supernatural, mystical, experiential, visions, etc. They make a mockery of the Holy Spirit and worship and Christianity in general.

Slug1
Oct 31st 2013, 08:45 PM
Oh this is a wonderful eyeopener for me. I have been taught many things from the bible, but sadly, only started reading it for myself about 2 months ago. You are right, these scriptures are about the Apostles, this is God's Word. Someone may argue it, no doubt, but they can't argue this is scripture. Thank you so much, you have taught me a lot!! denise, ysic PS One thing for sure you've shown me to keep reading God's Word for myself;)Denise, so let me ask you this as well... when your pastor baptizes people in the name of Jesus, are you gonna tell him he can't because only the Apostles were allowed to do this?

Proverbs31Woman
Oct 31st 2013, 08:45 PM
Acts 2 {KJV}

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

The "gift of the Holy Spirit" is in reference to the Holy Spirit dwelling within us and acting as the guarantee of our salvation. It is NOT referring to signs and wonders.

Oregongrown
Oct 31st 2013, 08:47 PM
Exactly.

Quoting you to have your post said again :lol:


I think the point is, that the verses that came up in Slugs selected search, were all of the verses P31W posted. So why not give some credit where credit is due. denise, a sister in Christ

Slug1
Oct 31st 2013, 08:47 PM
Again, this was a select group that were commissioned by Christ and were given special authority. there is nothing in the commissioning of the passage of the 72 that says that that passage was to be taken to include all Christians throughout all times.



Philip was not an ordinary person but was someone who was appointed by the Apostles for a special task and therefore the signs and wonders that he did and that Stephen (and I am sure the others that were appointed with them) did were done for the purpose of proving that they were who they claimed to be. It gave evidence that the testimony that they were giving was from God. Such evidence was extremely important when the Church was young and going out to new nations, but it is no longer needed today.



I reject it for several reasons. One, because 2 Peter and Jude say that not even the angels command Satan. Two, because the modern version of such "miracles" consists of "pastors" who do things like punch people in the face, stomach, etc to "heal" them, their followers writhe on the floor, they laugh uncontrollably at nothing, they act drunk and refer to it as being "drunk in the Spirit", they dance with rattlesnakes, they see Satan, demons, and angels around every corner, they are obsessed with the supernatural, mystical, experiential, visions, etc. They make a mockery of the Holy Spirit and worship and Christianity in general.How does your pastor baptize people if you say ONLY the Apostles were given the task to do this?

Slug1
Oct 31st 2013, 08:50 PM
I think the point is, that the verses that came up in Slugs selected search, were all of the verses P31W posted. So why not give some credit where credit is due. denise, a sister in ChristEaxctly, and then she twisted them to mean something else then what the Bible is teaching us all.

P1W is telling us that no one can do any of that stuff. So how can anyone in the Body of Christ baptize others in the name of Jesus?

This question will be avoided by her... you don't find that strange? Maybe she'll address it... I pray she does.

Proverbs31Woman
Oct 31st 2013, 08:52 PM
Denise, so let me ask you this as well... when your pastor baptizes people in the name of Jesus, are you gonna tell him has can't because only the Apostles were allowed to do this?

Physically baptizing someone with water is different because it is a symbolic act. it does not save, it does not have any power, in an of itself, it is purely an act of obedience and faith on the part of the believer. Having authority over the spiritual realm and casting out demons and healing diseases is a totally different animal. We do not have the authority to command Satan and the angelic realm. If Michael, the archangel, doesn't have that authority then you don't either. It was special authority granted to a select few for a select time.

Oregongrown
Oct 31st 2013, 08:53 PM
Denise, so let me ask you this as well... when your pastor baptizes people in the name of Jesus, are you gonna tell him he can't because only the Apostles were allowed to do this?

First of all, this was to Proverbs31woman, to thank her for the scriptures, and the learning I got through them. If you want another topic, you can go make one. And remember, you did suggest the websearch, she did what you suggested, I didn't, but I was glad she did it so I could read those verses.

Have a good one slug, denise, a sister in Christ

Oregongrown
Oct 31st 2013, 08:57 PM
Eaxctly, and then she twisted them to mean something else then what the Bible is teaching us all.

P1W is telling us that no one can do any of that stuff. So how can anyone in the Body of Christ baptize others in the name of Jesus?

This question will be avoided by her... you don't find that strange? Maybe she'll address it... I pray she does.

Hmm, I don't see she twisted anything, I read them, and just because they maybe didn't get interpreted the way you see them interpret them, doesn't make hers and my interpretation wrong slug. I haven't seen her avoid anything, I do see people avoid things, I know I do at times.

God bless, denise, a sister in Christ

Proverbs 3:5-7
Oct 31st 2013, 09:02 PM
Q = why are we to "put on the whole armor of God"?... for what primary reason?

A = "to stand against the wiles of the devil"... {as the theme of Ephesians 6 repeatedly confirms}

10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord and in the power of His might.
11 Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.
13 Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

14 Stand therefore, having girded your waist with truth, having put on the breastplate of righteousness,
15 and having shod your feet with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
16 above all, taking the shield of faith with which you will be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked one.
17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God;
18 praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, being watchful to this end with all perseverance and supplication for all the saints—

Proverbs31Woman
Oct 31st 2013, 09:04 PM
Or are you just gonna ignore these two questions and keep arguing with your unbelief?


I have said what I am going to say, I have shown you from Scripture that we are told that we are not to command Satan, that not even Michael presumes to do such a thing. I have shown you that the verses that you are using are speaking of and to Apostles and those given special commissions by Jesus or the Apostles. It is pointless for me to say any more.

Proverbs31Woman
Oct 31st 2013, 09:07 PM
Q = why are we to "put on the whole armor of God"?... for what primary reason?

A = "to stand against the wiles of the devil"... {as the theme of Ephesians 6 repeatedly confirms}

10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord and in the power of His might.
11 Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.
13 Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

14 Stand therefore, having girded your waist with truth, having put on the breastplate of righteousness,
15 and having shod your feet with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
16 above all, taking the shield of faith with which you will be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked one.
17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God;
18 praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, being watchful to this end with all perseverance and supplication for all the saints—

I am not arguing against the above. What I am arguing against is Slug's statement that we are to say, "I command you Satan, in the name of Jesus, to...."

Oregongrown
Oct 31st 2013, 09:10 PM
Physically baptizing someone with water is different because it is a symbolic act. it does not save, it does not have any power, in an of itself, it is purely an act of obedience and faith on the part of the believer. Having authority over the spiritual realm and casting out demons and healing diseases is a totally different animal. We do not have the authority to command Satan and the angelic realm. If Michael, the archangel, doesn't have that authority then you don't either. It was special authority granted to a select few for a select time.

Oh that verse had a huge effect on me just last week!

CJB Jude 1:9
9 When Mikha’el, one of the ruling angels, took issue with the Adversary, arguing over the body of Moshe, he did not dare bring against him an insulting charge, but said, “May Adonai rebuke you.”

I like the commentary I read on it as well:
Dave Guzik Commentary on Jude 1:9 NASV is used (http://www.studylight.org/com/guz/view.cgi?bk=64&ch=1)
d. Dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!” The manner of Michael’s fight is a model for spiritual warfare. First, we see that Michael was in a battle. Second, we see that he battled with the Lord’s authority.

Proverbs31Woman
Oct 31st 2013, 09:11 PM
Surely that would not make any sense to give this power to only a select group of people and not the Church! They are all dead, what about us in the here and now?

For what reason do you need to heal people, raise them from the dead, and cast out demons? Those miracles were for the sole purpose of giving evidence of the truth of what the Apostles were saying. When the Church was in it's infancy it was necessary, it is not necessary any more.

Proverbs 3:5-7
Oct 31st 2013, 09:15 PM
Acts 2 {KJV}
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.


The "gift of the Holy Spirit" is in reference to the Holy Spirit dwelling within us and acting as the guarantee of our salvation. It is NOT referring to signs and wonders.


Acts 2 {KJV} CONTINUED
40 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, “Be saved from this perverse generation.”
41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.
42 And they continued steadfastly in the apostles’ doctrine and fellowship, in the breaking of bread, and in prayers.
43 Then fear came upon every soul, and many wonders and signs were done through the apostles.

Proverbs 3:5-7
Oct 31st 2013, 09:24 PM
CJB Jude 1:9
9 When Mikha’el, one of the ruling angels, took issue with the Adversary, arguing over the body of Moshe, he did not dare bring against him an insulting charge, but said, “May Adonai rebuke you.”

I like the commentary I read on it as well:
Dave Guzik Commentary on Jude 1:9 NASV is used (http://www.studylight.org/com/guz/view.cgi?bk=64&ch=1)
d. Dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!” The manner of Michael’s fight is a model for spiritual warfare. First, we see that Michael was in a battle. Second, we see that he battled with the Lord’s authority.


:agree: Michael battled with The Lord's Authority (instead of just his own power)...
so for Believers to rebuke in The Name of Jesus directly coincides with that! :amen:

Slug1
Oct 31st 2013, 09:24 PM
Physically baptizing someone with water is different because it is a symbolic act. it does not save, it does not have any power, in an of itself, it is purely an act of obedience and faith on the part of the believer. Having authority over the spiritual realm and casting out demons and healing diseases is a totally different animal. We do not have the authority to command Satan and the angelic realm. If Michael, the archangel, doesn't have that authority then you don't either. It was special authority granted to a select few for a select time.


I have said what I am going to say, I have shown you from Scripture that we are told that we are not to command Satan, that not even Michael presumes to do such a thing. I have shown you that the verses that you are using are speaking of and to Apostles and those given special commissions by Jesus or the Apostles. It is pointless for me to say any more.

I knew you would not address the questions and would actually blow off the question about baptism, which you did above. You don't see that despite your post in that a water baptism is symbolic, you state that ONLY Apostles are allowed to do this by your argument?

Well... are we all wrong today because every pastor and many church leaders baptize in the name of Jesus and they are not Apostles?



Hmm, I don't see she twisted anything, I read them, and just because they maybe didn't get interpreted the way you see them interpret them, doesn't make hers and my interpretation wrong slug. I haven't seen her avoid anything, I do see people avoid things, I know I do at times.

God bless, denise, a sister in ChristNo? Does your pastor baptize in the name of Jesus? If she is right in interpretation, are you gonna tell your pastor to stop baptizing because he's not an Apostle?

Slug1
Oct 31st 2013, 09:26 PM
I am not arguing against the above. What I am arguing against is Slug's statement that we are to say, "I command you Satan, in the name of Jesus, to...."All this is, is how we battle WITH God's authority. I'm not commanding satan, I'm battling WITH the authority Jesus gave to the Body of Christ and any Christian can utilize.

Proverbs31Woman
Oct 31st 2013, 09:32 PM
Oh that verse had a huge effect on me just last week!

CJB Jude 1:9
9 When Mikha’el, one of the ruling angels, took issue with the Adversary, arguing over the body of Moshe, he did not dare bring against him an insulting charge, but said, “May Adonai rebuke you.”

I like the commentary I read on it as well:
Dave Guzik Commentary on Jude 1:9 NASV is used
d. Dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!” The manner of Michael’s fight is a model for spiritual warfare. First, we see that Michael was in a battle. Second, we see that he battled with the Lord’s authority.

Exactly, Michael did not say, "I rebuke you in the name of the Lord" but, "the Lord rebuke you!" Michael was not doing the rebuking, but was asking the Lord to do the rebuking. As an example from my own life, one day I was feeling especially tempted to sin and so I prayed, "Lord, Satan is tempting me and I am feeling weak. Please help me, send your angels to battle for me because I am about to fall". It worked. Now and again, at night, I get gripped by sudden fear that evil is lurking. Do I start shouting, "Satan, I command you to flee..."? Nope, I pray, "Lord, I am afraid. Please protect me and my family and our neighbors from the Enemy. Make him flee. Keep him far from us. Send your angels to guard us." I pray in this manner until I am comforted and can fall asleep.

Proverbs 3:5-7
Oct 31st 2013, 09:36 PM
... It was special authority granted to a select few for a select time...



since you seem to be quite thoroughly convinced of this :hmm: can you offer any Biblical substantiation to support it?...
is there any actual Scripture that specifies it was only for a select few & a select time period?

Proverbs31Woman
Oct 31st 2013, 09:46 PM
Quote Originally Posted by Proverbs31Woman View Post

I am not arguing against the above. What I am arguing against is Slug's statement that we are to say, "I command you Satan, in the name of Jesus, to...."
All this is, is how we battle WITH God's authority. I'm not commanding satan, I'm battling WITH the authority Jesus gave to the Body of Christ and any Christian can utilize.

No, that is you commanding Satan and throwing "in the name of the Lord" in almost as a magic phrase. The appropriate way to battle Satan is exactly how Jesus did, by quoting scripture that directly deals with whatever the situation is. Or praying to God and asking HIM to send Satan away. That is how we battle temptation, that is what the Sword of the Spirit is, it is the Word of God (scripture) that we use to battle.

Satan is too dangerous for us to be trying to shout at, command, talk to, etc, even if we do it "in the name of the Lord". We have to remember that Satan is second only to God. We do not, cannot understand the power that the angelic realm has. That is why we must, like Michael, differ to the Lord instead of stepping out and arrogantly saying, "I rebuke you Satan..." Do you understand the difference? Michael said, "the Lord rebuke" you say, "I rebuke..."

Proverbs 3:5-7
Oct 31st 2013, 09:49 PM
Quote Originally Posted by Oregongrown

CJB Jude 1:9
9 When Mikha’el, one of the ruling angels, took issue with the Adversary, arguing over the body of Moshe, he did not dare bring against him an insulting charge, but said, “May Adonai rebuke you.”

I like the commentary I read on it as well:
Dave Guzik Commentary on Jude 1:9 NASV is used
d. Dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!” The manner of Michael’s fight is a model for spiritual warfare. First, we see that Michael was in a battle. Second, we see that he battled with the Lord’s authority.



:agree: Michael battled with The Lord's Authority (instead of just his own power)...
so for Believers to rebuke in The Name of Jesus directly coincides with that! :amen:



just hoping to CLARIFY; Michael battled with The Lord's Authority WHILE arguing over Moses' body...
he also knew God's Authority was Highest (& that's why he called upon it)...

Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

Oregongrown
Oct 31st 2013, 09:52 PM
:agree: Michael battled with The Lord's Authority (instead of just his own power)...
so for Believers to rebuke in The Name of Jesus directly coincides with that! :amen:

Thanks and I agree as long as believers have the authority, do all believers have that? I am asking as I don't know that it was given to all or is given to all?

denise, a sister in Christ PS I can go try and look it up as well.

Oregongrown
Oct 31st 2013, 09:54 PM
Quote Originally Posted by Oregongrown

CJB Jude 1:9
9 When Mikha’el, one of the ruling angels, took issue with the Adversary, arguing over the body of Moshe, he did not dare bring against him an insulting charge, but said, “May Adonai rebuke you.”

I like the commentary I read on it as well:
Dave Guzik Commentary on Jude 1:9 NASV is used
d. Dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!” The manner of Michael’s fight is a model for spiritual warfare. First, we see that Michael was in a battle. Second, we see that he battled with the Lord’s authority.




just hoping to CLARIFY; Michael battled with The Lord's Authority WHILE arguing over Moses' body...
he also knew God's Authority was Highest (& that's why he called upon it)...

Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

Yes, I got that when I read the scripture on it, but thanks for the clarification here, denise, a sister in Christ

Proverbs 3:5-7
Oct 31st 2013, 09:55 PM
... Satan is too dangerous for us to be trying to shout at, command, talk to, etc, even if we do it "in the name of the Lord". We have to remember that Satan is second only to God. We do not, cannot understand the power that the angelic realm has...


can you offer any Biblical substantiation for satan allegedly being "second only to God"? :confused

Oregongrown
Oct 31st 2013, 09:56 PM
since you seem to be quite thoroughly convinced of this :hmm: can you offer any Biblical substantiation to support it?...
is there any actual Scripture that specifies it was only for a select few & a select time period?

That list of verse she gave to slug were all about Peter/Apostles having the authority, is that what you are asking? Maybe you didn't see those, they were early on in the thread;)

Slug1
Oct 31st 2013, 10:01 PM
That list of verse she gave to slug were all about Peter/Apostles having the authority, is that what you are asking? Maybe you didn't see those, they were early on in the thread;)But there are many other scriptures what show the context of what the Bible is teaching and that is that the Body of Christ have the authority.

Ananias, Agabus, Philip, just a few normal people... also doing supernatural work so this shows us that God does not limit Himself to only Apostles.

Slug1
Oct 31st 2013, 10:02 PM
can you offer any Biblical substantiation for satan allegedly being "second only to God"? :confusedI was gonna raise this but hesitated, felt best for this to be asked by someone else.

Proverbs 3:5-7
Oct 31st 2013, 10:04 PM
Thanks and I agree as long as believers have the authority, do all believers have that? I am asking as I don't know that it was given to all or is given to all?

denise, a sister in Christ PS I can go try and look it up as well.


that's why I'd asked Proverbs31Woman about any Scriptures that specify it doesn't apply to modern Believers, you know? :dunno:

Oregongrown
Oct 31st 2013, 10:05 PM
can you offer any Biblical substantiation for satan allegedly being "second only to God"? :confused

maybe this verse? I mean it doesn't say he's second to God, but I don't know anyone else that's called a god by Paul.

2 Corinthians 4:4

New King James Version (NKJV)

4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.

Another thing too was that satan was 2nd in command wasn't he? Again I am asking as I read it somewhere, but don't remember a verse. But that was before he was kicked out of heaven. Denise, a sister in Christ

divaD
Oct 31st 2013, 10:06 PM
No, that is you commanding Satan and throwing "in the name of the Lord" in almost as a magic phrase.


If someone were to say I rebuke you in the name of Jesus, how can that not be the same as saying the Lord rebuke you?

Compare the following. I'll use Slug1 as an example. Hope he doesn't mind.

Slug1 says...I rebuke you in the name of Jesus.

Or..

Slug1 says...I rebuke you in my own name.

The latter would for sure be of arrogance. But how could the former be of arrogance as well, when one uses the name of Jesus to rebuke the enemy with? I can't even begin to claim I've experienced things that Slug1 has, but I have been attacked by the enemy on numerous occasions, where I rebuked them in the name of Jesus and that that stopped the attack dead in it's tracks. The whole point I would think is this. either one has faith in the name of Jesus and realizes there is power in that name, or they lack faith in Jesus' name, and then conclude there is no power in that name.



The appropriate way to battle Satan is exactly how Jesus did, by quoting scripture that directly deals with whatever the situation is. Or praying to God and asking HIM to send Satan away. That is how we battle temptation, that is what the Sword of the Spirit is, it is the Word of God (scripture) that we use to battle.



I do tend to agree with you here, which might then seem like a contradiction. And if it is a contradiction, I guess I need to try and make up my mind which way I need to go with this. That is, if it's actually a contradiction to what I stated in the first paragraph. And if no contradiction, I then go with both.

Oregongrown
Oct 31st 2013, 10:09 PM
that's why I'd asked Proverbs31Woman about any Scriptures that specify it doesn't apply to modern Believers, you know? :dunno:



Yes but again, I thought those verses were excellent in pointing out who the authority was given to. I guess I missed something, not the first time, did she say it doesn't apply to modern believers that have authority? Then my question is do modern believers have the authority, I'm still searching;)

Oregongrown
Oct 31st 2013, 10:15 PM
But there are many other scriptures what show the context of what the Bible is teaching and that is that the Body of Christ have the authority.

Ananias, Agabus, Philip, just a few normal people... also doing supernatural work so this shows us that God does not limit Himself to only Apostles.

That's great slug, it's just that those were the ones I think you asked me to google. I can't remember your exact post so I will go and look again, so as not to make a mistake, again:(

I was too busy or lazy to look them up, but P31W did. I was glad, to both of you, I learned a lot by reading those verses!! Praise God!!

Slug1
Oct 31st 2013, 10:16 PM
Yes but again, I thought those verses were excellent in pointing out who the authority was given to. I guess I missed something, not the first time, did she say it doesn't apply to modern believers that have authority? Then my question is do modern believers have the authority, I'm still searching;)Well... what do Christians today do when a demon manifests or satan tempts them?

If only the Apostles had use of God's authority based on what she is saying those scriptures mean... that means the Body of Christ today can't do anything in the name of Jesus.

Slug1
Oct 31st 2013, 10:17 PM
That's great slug, it's just that those were the ones I think you asked me to google. I can't remember your exact post so I will go and look again, so as not to make a mistake, again:(

I was too busy or lazy to look them up, but P31W did. I was glad, to both of you, I learned a lot by reading those verses!! Praise God!!There are more... she chose some and omitted others.

Oregongrown
Oct 31st 2013, 10:52 PM
There are more... she chose some and omitted others.


yes, and who doesn't do that? ;)

Slug1
Oct 31st 2013, 10:54 PM
yes, and who doesn't do that? ;)Ha :lol:

But the "why" is where the matter lies in the omitting of scripture.

Oregongrown
Oct 31st 2013, 11:11 PM
Ha :lol:

But the "why" is where the matter lies in the omitting of scripture.

Ok, why do we do that:lol: No need to answer, I no why. We pick what we think will make our point, or, we post the whole bible, or, we forget a verse that might help, or we might do it on purpose because we don't want to see where we might be wrong.

another topic again, thanks slug, have a great evening:)

Slug1
Oct 31st 2013, 11:16 PM
Ok, why do we do that:lol: No need to answer, I no why. We pick what we think will make our point, or, we post the whole bible, or, we forget a verse that might help, or we might do it on purpose because we don't want to see where we might be wrong.

another topic again, thanks slug, have a great evening:)Well in this case... I choose to be wrong based on her understanding. I will continue to baptize in the name of Jesus, God will continue to heal people through me as I call on the name of Jesus, and due to a ministry God has called me too, I will continue to cast out demons in the name of Jesus.

So... I'm wrong, this doesn't bother me as long as God's good work is accomplished in His name.

Oregongrown
Oct 31st 2013, 11:31 PM
Well in this case... I choose to be wrong based on her understanding. I will continue to baptize in the name of Jesus, God will continue to heal people through me as I call on the name of Jesus, and due to a ministry God has called me too, I will continue to cast out demons in the name of Jesus.

So... I'm wrong, this doesn't bother me as long as God's good work is accomplished in His name.

Where do you find the time, you're on here as much as I am ;)

Slug1
Oct 31st 2013, 11:36 PM
Where do you find the time, you're on here as much as I am ;)I was off from work today :lol:

Proverbs31Woman
Nov 1st 2013, 03:08 AM
can you offer any Biblical substantiation for satan allegedly being "second only to God"?

Ezekiel 28:12-18. I have always been taught that this was ultimately a description of Lucifer and It is my understanding that this is a common believe. The description is of a guardian cherub (they guard the throne of God, I believe) but this angel was the anointed guardian cherub. Obviously, based on the description, this was not an ordinary angel but one who was exceptionally beautiful and with great privilege. Isaiah 14:12-15 records the fall of Satan.

Even if I am wrong in my belief that Satan was the highest of all of the angels, it does not matter, he is still an angel and is therefore a higher being than we are and much more powerful than we can imagine and as such is still too dangerous to be trying to order around.

Slug1
Nov 1st 2013, 03:29 AM
Ezekiel 28:12-18. I have always been taught that this was ultimately a description of Lucifer and It is my understanding that this is a common believe. The description is of a guardian cherub (they guard the throne of God, I believe) but this angel was the anointed guardian cherub. Obviously, based on the description, this was not an ordinary angel but one who was exceptionally beautiful and with great privilege. Isaiah 14:12-15 records the fall of Satan.

Even if I am wrong in my belief that Satan was the highest of all of the angels, it does not matter, he is still an angel and is therefore a higher being than we are and much more powerful than we can imagine and as such is still too dangerous to be trying to order around.No matter what belief, the moment you utilize your authority given to you by God through Jesus, satan must submit. So when you are being tempted and you order him in the name of Jesus to leave you alone, the thoughts and temptation WILL stop.

Proverbs31Woman
Nov 1st 2013, 03:37 AM
If someone were to say I rebuke you in the name of Jesus, how can that not be the same as saying the Lord rebuke you?

Compare the following. I'll use Slug1 as an example. Hope he doesn't mind.

Slug1 says...I rebuke you in the name of Jesus.

Or..

Slug1 says...I rebuke you in my own name.

The latter would for sure be of arrogance. But how could the former be of arrogance as well, when one uses the name of Jesus to rebuke the enemy with? I can't even begin to claim I've experienced things that Slug1 has, but I have been attacked by the enemy on numerous occasions, where I rebuked them in the name of Jesus and that that stopped the attack dead in it's tracks. The whole point I would think is this. either one has faith in the name of Jesus and realizes there is power in that name, or they lack faith in Jesus' name, and then conclude there is no power in that name.

There is a huge difference. In one case you are saying, "the Lord rebuke you", in other words you are declaring something that the Lord is doing, you are agreeing with the Lord. In saying, "I rebuke you in the name of the Lord" you are doing the rebuking and asking God to back you up. The lord is rebuking in one case, in the other you are doing the rebuking.

Just because we tack "in the name of the Lord" or "in Jesus name" on to something does not mean that we are acting in Jesus name. It is not a magical phrase. If we pray, "Lord, please provide the money for me to buy that new, red, convertible car. In Jesus name I pray, Amen" God is not obligated to provide the funds because we tacked "in Jesus name" on to it.

The power that is in the name of Jesus is not magically granted to us that we can all go around screaming at Satan and demons, "I see you there in the corner and I command you to come out...in the name of the Lord". That is silliness and minimizes and makes a mockery of a realm that we cannot even imagine the power of. The reason why we can resist Satan is not because we have been granted power by God in and of ourselves but because, as His children, we have the promise of His care and protection and with one prayer God would/could empty heaven of all of its angels in order to come to our aid. It is not us, it is GOD.

Proverbs31Woman
Nov 1st 2013, 03:41 AM
Michael battled with The Lord's Authority (instead of just his own power)...
so for Believers to rebuke in The Name of Jesus directly coincides with that!

Here is the thing though, Michael did not do the rebuking, but called the LORD to do so. You on the other hand, by saying "I rebuke you" ARE rebuking Satan. Michael differed to the Lord, you differ to yourself (but you do it in "jesus name" to be safe).

Proverbs31Woman
Nov 1st 2013, 03:46 AM
that's why I'd asked Proverbs31Woman about any Scriptures that specify it doesn't apply to modern Believers, you know?

What do you think, since all of the verses where a human is rebuking Satan or casting out demons are talking about the work of those directly commissioned by Jesus, or 2 that were commissioned by the apostles to help in their work. All of the verses were specially appointed people for a special time.

Proverbs31Woman
Nov 1st 2013, 03:54 AM
since you seem to be quite thoroughly convinced of this can you offer any Biblical substantiation to support it?...
is there any actual Scripture that specifies it was only for a select few & a select time period?

Look at who is speaking in Scripture, "in the name of the Lord..." who is casting out demons and rebuking Satan? It is Jesus, it is the Apostles (specially appointed by Jesus), it was the 72 (again, specially appointed by Jesus) and we have 2 of the 7 that were specially appointed by the apostles to assist them in their work (although, I think it is safe to infer that all 7 were doing the same miraculous works although scripture does not say). ALL, of the examples of scripture where special miracles were preformed in the NT were done by those groups of people, those who were specifically chosen and appointed. That, my friend, is a select few people in a select time period.

divaD
Nov 1st 2013, 04:04 AM
If we pray, "Lord, please provide the money for me to buy that new, red, convertible car. In Jesus name I pray, Amen" God is not obligated to provide the funds because we tacked "in Jesus name" on to it.



I for sure agree 100% with you here. But I see this being totally different than rebuking the enemy in the name of Jesus. But if you think it's the same concept, could you explain what makes it the same concept?


Acts 16:18 And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour.


One thing is for certain, it is indeed 100% Biblical for example, to command an evil spirit to come out of someone by using in the name of Jesus Christ in order to do so. The way you reason that, from what I can tell, these were only special privileges given to these certain apostles 2000 years ago.


To be honest with you, I'm uncertain what Scriptures that the rebuking of satan in Jesus' name are based on. Maybe Slug1 can enlighten us on that? The above passage isn't about rebuking the enemy in Jesus' name, but is about casting out an evil spirit in Jesus' name. So I guess where I picked this up at, the rebuking of the enemy in Jesus' name, must have been when I was a Charismatic back in the mid 80s. I am no longer a Charismatic since the late 80s or perhaps early 90s, don't recall exactly. But I have used this phrase on numerous occasions well after I left the Charismatic camp, and all I know is, it works.

Oregongrown
Nov 1st 2013, 04:05 AM
There is a huge difference. In one case you are saying, "the Lord rebuke you", in other words you are declaring something that the Lord is doing, you are agreeing with the Lord. In saying, "I rebuke you in the name of the Lord" you are doing the rebuking and asking God to back you up. The lord is rebuking in one case, in the other you are doing the rebuking.

Just because we tack "in the name of the Lord" or "in Jesus name" on to something does not mean that we are acting in Jesus name. It is not a magical phrase. If we pray, "Lord, please provide the money for me to buy that new, red, convertible car. In Jesus name I pray, Amen" God is not obligated to provide the funds because we tacked "in Jesus name" on to it.

The power that is in the name of Jesus is not magically granted to us that we can all go around screaming at Satan and demons, "I see you there in the corner and I command you to come out...in the name of the Lord". That is silliness and minimizes and makes a mockery of a realm that we cannot even imagine the power of. The reason why we can resist Satan is not because we have been granted power by God in and of ourselves but because, as His children, we have the promise of His care and protection and with one prayer God would/could empty heaven of all of its angels in order to come to our aid. It is not us, it is GOD.

This makes some good sense, I am not familiar with a lot of this so I can't really say, but tomorrow when I am way more awake, I'm going to do some research since it seems more right to me to say "the Lord rebuke you" rather that "I rebuke you". Thanks for the posts, denise, a sister in Christ

Proverbs31Woman
Nov 1st 2013, 04:11 AM
But there are many other scriptures what show the context of what the Bible is teaching and that is that the Body of Christ have the authority.

Ananias, Agabus, Philip, just a few normal people... also doing supernatural work so this shows us that God does not limit Himself to only Apostles.

Agabus was a prophet, there is nothing in scripture that says that he went around commanding and ordering Satan and his angels around. I have already addressed Philip, he was a special appointee of the Apostles to assist them. Ananias prayed over Saul in order to restore his sight, it says nothing of Ananias ordering Satan or demons around.

Proverbs31Woman
Nov 1st 2013, 04:16 AM
I knew you would not address the questions and would actually blow off the question about baptism, which you did above. You don't see that despite your post in that a water baptism is symbolic, you state that ONLY Apostles are allowed to do this by your argument?

No, I am choosing not to play your little game. My original post to you was on the topic of humans rebuking Satan and ordering Him around. You are trying to pull me off of that because you don't want to deal with the subject that I originally addressed you on.

Oregongrown
Nov 1st 2013, 04:41 AM
No, I am choosing not to play your little game. My original post to you was on the topic of humans rebuking Satan and ordering Him around. You are trying to pull me off of that because you don't want to deal with the subject that I originally addressed you on.

I am so slow to learn some things, but I'll tell you, what you said here has happened to me numerous times, and I thank you so much because I will know it the next time anyone tries to pull it on me. denise, a sister in Christ

Proverbs31Woman
Nov 1st 2013, 04:49 AM
I for sure agree 100% with you here. But I see this being totally different than rebuking the enemy in the name of Jesus. But if you think it's the same concept, could you explain what makes it the same concept?

For the reasons that I have already said. Biblically, the only people who ordered Satan around were Jesus (obviously), the Apostles, and 7 people that the Apostles specially appointed to assist them. That is it. We are not to argue with, command, have long drawn out conversations with Satan or his demons, but we are to be like Michael and differ to God when it comes to rebuking him. To be flippant about the spiritual realm and order Satan around is to act outside of God's will (just like praying for a shiny, red, convertible is praying outside of God's will) and tacking on "in the name of the Lord" does not change that. You are ONLY acting/praying "in the name of the Lord" if you are acting/praying within His will.


One thing is for certain, it is indeed 100% Biblical for example, to command an evil spirit to come out of someone by using in the name of Jesus Christ in order to do so. The way you reason that, from what I can tell, these were only special privileges given to these certain apostles 2000 years ago.

Yes. It was correct for them. We have to remember that not everything in scripture is directly applicable for us today. Just because a select few in the Bible had the authority to rebuke Satan in Jesus' name does not mean that we have that same authority today. And yes, the Mark 16 passage which was pointed out does seem to give us that authority, but that text is not in any of the oldest and best manuscripts that we have and we, therefore, cannot use that to base a belief on.

What we can take from the works that the Apostles did is the same thing that the people of their day took it as, it is a testimony to us (as it was to them) that their authority came from God, that the message that they spoke, that has been written down for us, is God's message, and it has the power to save us. We do not need to do such works today because we have the written Word now (something that the apostles and those that they were witnessing to did not have), the canon is complete and the witness and the testimony and the evidence of the testimony is preserved for all to see.

We are to fight with Scripture (the Sword of the Spirit) and not by saying, "Satan I command you..." No, instead, if we are being tempted to whine and complain we are to remember to "do everything without complaining or arguing...", if a child is tempted to disobey their parents they are not supposed to say, "Satan, I command you to stop tempting me to disobey..." but to remember, "Children obey your parents in the Lord for this is right. Honor your father and mother..." That is how we fight, that is how we are told to fight, that is the example that Christ gave us of how to fight.

Redeemed by Grace
Nov 1st 2013, 12:31 PM
Let's let Scripture answer it.

Genesis 3:8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.


Usually if folks have done nothing wrong, they usually don't hide themselves like this. Not only did Adam hide himself at the time, so did his wife.

Genesis 3:13 And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.
14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

As can be clearly seen, the whisperer in the ear gets his just due for his part in this as well. But if we read on, God is not yet finished with the woman.

Genesis 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.


Why would He do all of this to the woman, if the woman wasn't to blame about something she had done? The fact God blessed man and told them to be fruitful and multiply before they had ever fallen, did any of that include what is written in Genesis 3:16? No. Obviously then, this was a form of punishment for the woman, in regards to her part in this. And since she had free will, and that the serpent wasn't holding a gun to her head at the time, she could have chosen to ignore what the enemy was whispering in her ear, and continued to do what God had already commanded, and that's to not partake of the fruit of that tree, lest you die. This clearly shows that one of satan's greatest weapon is deceit. This is usually how the enemy attacks us, though deceit. I'm not saying that is the enemies only weapon, just that it's one of his major weapons




While it could be understood like that I guess, now that you mention it, that wasn't the point I was trying to make. The point I was trying to make is found in the 2nd paragraph in that post, where there is no friend in the car, yet this same thought crosses that person's mind out of thin air. So I then used the friend in the first paragraph to illustrate the devil whispering in one's ear in the 2nd paragraph. But even coming from your perspective, is one to believe the enemy is not capable of attacking folks through other folks they may already have a stronghold over to begin with?





When one throws the devil and his who knows how many demons into the mix, it's no wonder all of the above is true. Let me ask this then. When something is in your heart that is good and pure, did you yourself solely put it there, or did it perhaps come from an outside source, mainly meaning God.? Surely I would think you would have to give God some credit for this, otherwise you wouldn't be in any need of a Saviour, since you could fix yourself without God's help. In the same way then, if good and pure things can enter one's mind and heart via an outside source, thus causing that person to do good acts in life, then why can't the opposite be true, that the enemy can enter one's mind and heart, thus causing them to do sinful acts, assuming they at on any of it?

Hi David,

I have to leave again for more meetings but wanted to not leave you hanging as I was looking to see if you replied and found this.

The net net about temptation. James states it comes from within us, and other scriptures I have also quoted declares the same. Adam and Eve, being created and not born, did not have an inherent sin nature, and also the same can be stated about Jesus. Thus Satan came face to face and tempted Adam and Eve and was successful, To Jesus, he was not.

Thus all men born have sin within us. All men who believe on Jesus Christ have His imputed righteousness. Thus Satan 'won' round one, as God has planned, and thus all men born will die because of their sins, and in round two sends His Son to defeat sin and death. Thus the physical birth whereas all men are born in sin can give way to spiritual life and then physical life through Jesus Christ.

So Satan at this moment, doesn't visit all men everywhere, for he doesn't have to because of his temporal success with Adam and Eve. But what he now does is accuse all believers before God when we still sin against Him.

Got to go... sorry if this is too short...

Redeemed by Grace
Nov 1st 2013, 12:33 PM
For the reasons that I have already said. Biblically, the only people who ordered Satan around were Jesus (obviously), the Apostles, and 7 people that the Apostles specially appointed to assist them. That is it. We are not to argue with, command, have long drawn out conversations with Satan or his demons, but we are to be like Michael and differ to God when it comes to rebuking him. To be flippant about the spiritual realm and order Satan around is to act outside of God's will (just like praying for a shiny, red, convertible is praying outside of God's will) and tacking on "in the name of the Lord" does not change that. You are ONLY acting/praying "in the name of the Lord" if you are acting/praying within His will.



Yes. It was correct for them. We have to remember that not everything in scripture is directly applicable for us today. Just because a select few in the Bible had the authority to rebuke Satan in Jesus' name does not mean that we have that same authority today. And yes, the Mark 16 passage which was pointed out does seem to give us that authority, but that text is not in any of the oldest and best manuscripts that we have and we, therefore, cannot use that to base a belief on.

What we can take from the works that the Apostles did is the same thing that the people of their day took it as, it is a testimony to us (as it was to them) that their authority came from God, that the message that they spoke, that has been written down for us, is God's message, and it has the power to save us. We do not need to do such works today because we have the written Word now (something that the apostles and those that they were witnessing to did not have), the canon is complete and the witness and the testimony and the evidence of the testimony is preserved for all to see.

We are to fight with Scripture (the Sword of the Spirit) and not by saying, "Satan I command you..." No, instead, if we are being tempted to whine and complain we are to remember to "do everything without complaining or arguing...", if a child is tempted to disobey their parents they are not supposed to say, "Satan, I command you to stop tempting me to disobey..." but to remember, "Children obey your parents in the Lord for this is right. Honor your father and mother..." That is how we fight, that is how we are told to fight, that is the example that Christ gave us of how to fight.

I only have time to read this one post, for I see you've offered many, but if your other posts are of the same, good stuff!

Redeemed by Grace
Nov 1st 2013, 12:35 PM
Nope... just pointing out how you twist everything to include... twisting scripture to fit your beliefs. For example, your answer to Curtis twisted the 1 Cor 10:13 verse to fit what you believe. The Bible teaches that from the beginning that satan is the source of temptation and the result is sin... he started this in heaven, and continues today and will continue until he's tossed in the lake of fire. There will be a pause of almost 90+% of a 1000 year period of time man WILL NOT be tempted.

So in this alone, another way to refute that sin in the heart is not what governs man to sin... there will be no sin during that period of time when satan is bound. WHY? Don't say it's because Jesus is on the earth... Jesus is IN all Christians now and many sin still. It is because they will not be TEMPTED by satan when he is bound.

You really need to take ALL the Bible into full context.


Hello Kettle .

Slug1
Nov 1st 2013, 01:48 PM
For the reasons that I have already said. Biblically, the only people who ordered Satan around were Jesus (obviously), the Apostles, and 7 people that the Apostles specially appointed to assist them. That is it. We are not to argue with, command, have long drawn out conversations with Satan or his demons, but we are to be like Michael and differ to God when it comes to rebuking him. To be flippant about the spiritual realm and order Satan around is to act outside of God's will (just like praying for a shiny, red, convertible is praying outside of God's will) and tacking on "in the name of the Lord" does not change that. You are ONLY acting/praying "in the name of the Lord" if you are acting/praying within His will.



Yes. It was correct for them. We have to remember that not everything in scripture is directly applicable for us today. Just because a select few in the Bible had the authority to rebuke Satan in Jesus' name does not mean that we have that same authority today. And yes, the Mark 16 passage which was pointed out does seem to give us that authority, but that text is not in any of the oldest and best manuscripts that we have and we, therefore, cannot use that to base a belief on.

What we can take from the works that the Apostles did is the same thing that the people of their day took it as, it is a testimony to us (as it was to them) that their authority came from God, that the message that they spoke, that has been written down for us, is God's message, and it has the power to save us. We do not need to do such works today because we have the written Word now (something that the apostles and those that they were witnessing to did not have), the canon is complete and the witness and the testimony and the evidence of the testimony is preserved for all to see.

We are to fight with Scripture (the Sword of the Spirit) and not by saying, "Satan I command you..." No, instead, if we are being tempted to whine and complain we are to remember to "do everything without complaining or arguing...", if a child is tempted to disobey their parents they are not supposed to say, "Satan, I command you to stop tempting me to disobey..." but to remember, "Children obey your parents in the Lord for this is right. Honor your father and mother..." That is how we fight, that is how we are told to fight, that is the example that Christ gave us of how to fight.I will point out that it was not just the Apostles and a few they appointed... it is about the Body of Christ. We see this when Jesus sent out all 70 disciples at that given moment (who made up what will be the beginning of the Body of Christ) a mission... this SAME mission was given to ALL the Body of Christ and this is made up of ALL who believe.

Any believer in the Body of Christ has Christ's authority and His blessings (by His order) to do what He's empowered the entire Body of Christ (believers) to do. Authority over satan and all his forces is included in that authority given to all who are belivers. The gifts of the Holy Spirit are available to all in the Body of Christ and who believe. Which ones we all receive is up to God but we are in authority to utilize the gift given to us (for the benefit of the Body) just as we are to utilize all the authority given to us over satan.

Out there in the world there are believers doing what you don't believe they can do. Like I said, even in your own church, those who baptize in the name of Jesus are moving against what you believe in that the mission to baptize was given only to Apostles and a few that they selected.

Slug1
Nov 1st 2013, 01:51 PM
Hello Kettle .Are you saying that there will be sin in the world while satan is bound for most of that 1000 years?

Proverbs 3:5-7
Nov 1st 2013, 04:17 PM
Quote Originally Posted by Proverbs 3:5-7

since you seem to be quite thoroughly convinced of this; can you offer any Biblical substantiation to support it?...
is there any actual Scripture that specifies it was only for a select few & a select time period?



That list of verse she gave to slug were all about Peter/Apostles having the authority, is that what you are asking?
Maybe you didn't see those, they were early on in the thread ;)


pardon me again :confused but I have went back over the ENTIRE thread & there is NO Scripture quoted that specifies it was ONLY for a select few & a select time period... THAT is (obviously) what I was asking about

Proverbs 3:5-7
Nov 1st 2013, 04:41 PM
The whole point I would think is this. either one has faith in the name of Jesus and realizes there is power in that name, or they lack faith in Jesus' name, and then conclude there is no power in that name.



:agree: that really is the bottom line issue of this debate...

& contending with the dogmatic denials of the naysayers argument :confused reminds me of how annoyed Christ would get (even with His Own Disciples) by expounding; "OH ye of little Faith! WHY DO YOU DOUBT?!"

Proverbs31Woman
Nov 1st 2013, 05:05 PM
I will point out that it was not just the Apostles and a few they appointed... it is about the Body of Christ. We see this when Jesus sent out all 70 disciples at that given moment (who made up what will be the beginning of the Body of Christ) a mission... this SAME mission was given to ALL the Body of Christ and this is made up of ALL who believe.

He did not send out "all 70", what the passage says is "after this the Lord appointed seventy-two others..." (Luke 10:1) This is not saying that there were only 72 disciples and all were sent out and worked miracles, it is saying that Jesus appointed 72 from amongst the disciples. Appointing some from many is not appointing the whole body.


Any believer in the Body of Christ has Christ's authority and His blessings (by His order) to do what He's empowered the entire Body of Christ (believers) to do. Authority over satan and all his forces is included in that authority given to all who are belivers.

Where does it say that ALL believers have such authority? Where in scripture does it give an example of someone who was not specially appointed casting out demons? Every single one of the statements that you have given of Jesus giving people the authority to cast demons out where all given to a SELECT number of people who were specifically appointed for the task. It was not a blanket statement or command or commission. You will point out to me Mark 16. Mark 16 is the ONLY place where it implies that all believers will work miracles. But that section of Mark 16 is not in any of the original manuscripts and the parallel passage in Matthew does not have such a statement giving all believers such authority.


Out there in the world there are believers doing what you don't believe they can do.

You mean people like Todd Bentley who punches and kicks people to "heal" them? Benny Hinn..."just send me your money and you will be healed"? How about the "pastors" in Africa who take the women up to the mountains to "cast out demons" and "heal" them by sexually assaulting them? Yeah, all over the world "pastors" are healing and casting out demons and in their wake they are leaving people who are sick and dying, poor, and knocked up. Do you think that is how the Apostles healed and cast demons out? Do you think that they were kicking people, taking their money and sexually assaulting them? The modern examples of those who claim to have authority over Satan do not match up with the scriptural examples that we have.

Proverbs 3:5-7
Nov 1st 2013, 05:05 PM
... The appropriate way to battle Satan is exactly how Jesus did, by quoting scripture that directly deals with whatever the situation is... That is how we battle temptation, that is what the Sword of the Spirit is, it is the Word of God (scripture) that we use to battle...



:agree: with these specific points within your response...
INDEED IT IS a powerful weapon to defeat the enemy; by quoting God's Word as "it is Written" :bible:
just as Christ Himself did; because He knew better about the WHOLE Truth of Scripture & could NOT be duped by the devil's manipulations...
in fact; the devil was totally daft :thumbsdn: to EVEN THINK that he could outsmart Jesus *The WORD Made Flesh* you know?

Proverbs31Woman
Nov 1st 2013, 05:10 PM
with these specific points within your response...
INDEED IT IS a powerful weapon to defeat the enemy; by quoting God's Word as "it is Written"
just as Christ Himself did; because He knew better about the WHOLE Truth of Scripture & could NOT be duped by the devil's manipulations...
in fact; the devil was totally daft to EVEN THINK that he could outsmart Jesus *The WORD Made Flesh* you know?

It is our ONLY weapon.

Curtis
Nov 1st 2013, 05:11 PM
.

He did not send out "all 70", what the passage says is "after this the Lord appointed seventy-two others..." (Luke 10:1) This is not saying that there were only 72 disciples and all were sent out and worked miracles, it is saying that Jesus appointed 72 from amongst the disciples. Appointing some from many is not appointing the whole body.



Where does it say that ALL believers have such authority? Where in scripture does it give an example of someone who was not specially appointed casting out demons? Every single one of the statements that you have given of Jesus giving people the authority to cast demons out where all given to a SELECT number of people who were specifically appointed for the task. It was not a blanket statement or command or commission. You will point out to me Mark 16. Mark 16 is the ONLY place where it implies that all believers will work miracles. But that section of Mark 16 is not in any of the original manuscripts and the parallel passage in Matthew does not have such a statement giving all believers such authority.



You mean people like Todd Bentley who punches and kicks people to "heal" them? Benny Hinn..."just send me your money and you will be healed"? How about the "pastors" in Africa who take the women up to the mountains to "cast out demons" and "heal" them by sexually assaulting them? Yeah, all over the world "pastors" are healing and casting out demons and in their wake they are leaving people who are sick and dying, poor, and knocked up. Do you think that is how the Apostles healed and cast demons out? Do you think that they were kicking people, taking their money and sexually assaulting them? The modern examples of those who claim to have authority over Satan do not match up with the scriptural examples that we have.

Luk 10:17 The seventy-two returned with joy, saying, "Lord, even the demons are subject to us in your name!"

Mar 16:17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues;

This is any believer, not just a chosen few. God created man a little lower than the angels, but when he crowned him Glory and Honor, that placed him above the angels in authority, and power.

Proverbs31Woman
Nov 1st 2013, 05:23 PM
Luk 10:17 The seventy-two returned with joy, saying, "Lord, even the demons are subject to us in your name!"

Mar 16:17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues;

This is any believer, not just a chosen few.

LOL, you seriously need to read the post that you are replying to before you reply because I addressed both of those in my post. Luke 10:17, the 72 referenced were appointed in verse 1, "after this the Lord appointed seventy-two others..." This is not saying that there were ONLY 72 disciples but that Jesus APPOINTED 72. Again, these were people that were APPOINTED.

As for Mark 16:17, that section of Mark 16 is not in any of the oldest and best manuscripts. You cannot base a doctrine off of it.

Oregongrown
Nov 1st 2013, 05:24 PM
Luk 10:17 The seventy-two returned with joy, saying, "Lord, even the demons are subject to us in your name!"

Mar 16:17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues;

This is any believer, not just a chosen few. God created man a little lower than the angels, but when he crowned him Glory and Honor, that placed him above the angels in authority, and power.

This is interesting since P31W did say that verse would be used, she knows His Word. I am curious about the verse not being in the original text, or, written the way it is in the one we see today. She also pointed out Luke's verse, and that tells me exactly what she said, it doesn't say anything about any and all believers.

I don't understand when someone points out truth, anyone here I mean, why we aren't quick to acknowledge that. Do some really lack any humility whatsoever? This isn't just to you Curtis but to all of us. Well, maybe it's just too time consuming to say to someone, I agree with you here, but I disagree with you here.

Anyway, I for one, if I'm wrong about something I've read in the bible, or been taught by people/church, I want to know, so I'm reading the bible. But, I know there are those that have gone before me that can teach me a lot, I think we all need to remain teachable. Doesn't everyone want to know the Truth?

Oregongrown
Nov 1st 2013, 05:28 PM
.

He did not send out "all 70", what the passage says is "after this the Lord appointed seventy-two others..." (Luke 10:1) This is not saying that there were only 72 disciples and all were sent out and worked miracles, it is saying that Jesus appointed 72 from amongst the disciples. Appointing some from many is not appointing the whole body.



Where does it say that ALL believers have such authority? Where in scripture does it give an example of someone who was not specially appointed casting out demons? Every single one of the statements that you have given of Jesus giving people the authority to cast demons out where all given to a SELECT number of people who were specifically appointed for the task. It was not a blanket statement or command or commission. You will point out to me Mark 16. Mark 16 is the ONLY place where it implies that all believers will work miracles. But that section of Mark 16 is not in any of the original manuscripts and the parallel passage in Matthew does not have such a statement giving all believers such authority.



You mean people like Todd Bentley who punches and kicks people to "heal" them? Benny Hinn..."just send me your money and you will be healed"? How about the "pastors" in Africa who take the women up to the mountains to "cast out demons" and "heal" them by sexually assaulting them? Yeah, all over the world "pastors" are healing and casting out demons and in their wake they are leaving people who are sick and dying, poor, and knocked up. Do you think that is how the Apostles healed and cast demons out? Do you think that they were kicking people, taking their money and sexually assaulting them? The modern examples of those who claim to have authority over Satan do not match up with the scriptural examples that we have.

I am really grateful to have you share so much info I was not aware of. I'm only starting to read the bible myself, the rest I learned just from people, or at church/biblestudies. Now I am finding out first hand for myself. People posting what they know about the bible helps, even the false teachings at least show me what is not truth.

Proverbs31Woman
Nov 1st 2013, 05:31 PM
I am so slow to learn some things, but I'll tell you, what you said here has happened to me numerous times, and I thank you so much because I will know it the next time anyone tries to pull it on me. denise, a sister in Christ

Oh, I have been posting on religious forums since I was about 16 and I cannot tell you how many times I have been pulled off into the weeds by people. I think this is really the first time that recognized the tactic and have been trying to put my foot down and not follow them.

Curtis
Nov 1st 2013, 05:32 PM
LOL, you seriously need to read the post that you are replying to before you reply because I addressed both of those in my post. Luke 10:17, the 72 referenced were appointed in verse 1, "after this the Lord appointed seventy-two others..." This is not saying that there were ONLY 72 disciples but that Jesus APPOINTED 72. Again, these were people that were APPOINTED.

As for Mark 16:17, that section of Mark 16 is not in any of the oldest and best manuscripts. You cannot base a doctrine off of it.

I have 22 Bible translations, and they all have this scripture in it. I think I will believe it to be true. You should to. What Bible translation can I see where this is not there?

Proverbs 3:5-7
Nov 1st 2013, 05:48 PM
since you seem to be quite thoroughly convinced of this can you offer any Biblical substantiation to support it?...
is there any actual Scripture that specifies it was only for a select few & a select time period?



Look at who is speaking in Scripture, "in the name of the Lord..." who is casting out demons and rebuking Satan? It is Jesus, it is the Apostles (specially appointed by Jesus), it was the 72 (again, specially appointed by Jesus) and we have 2 of the 7 that were specially appointed by the apostles to assist them in their work (although, I think it is safe to infer that all 7 were doing the same miraculous works although scripture does not say). ALL, of the examples of scripture where special miracles were preformed in the NT were done by those groups of people, those who were specifically chosen and appointed. That, my friend, is a select few people in a select time period.


that is ONLY YOUR summation projected TO IMPLY that... IF ONLY you would realize that :confused
no matter how often you expound it; you have NOT proven your point... because there is NO Scripture that specifies it's ONLY limited to them...

however; there IS Scripture that plainly states "the promise is unto you, and to your children, and TO ALL that are afar off, EVEN AS MANY AS the Lord Our God shall call"

while you are CERTAINLY entitled to your own opinions & beliefs...
& I've recently found some common ground of agreement with you (on a DIFFERENT issue though)...
but I cannot agree with anything that's in direct contradiction to ANY given Scripture

Proverbs31Woman
Nov 1st 2013, 05:53 PM
I am really grateful to have you share so much info I was not aware of. I'm only starting to read the bible myself, the rest I learned just from people, or at church/biblestudies. Now I am finding out first hand for myself. People posting what they know about the bible helps, even the false teachings at least show me what is not truth.

I am glad that my knowledge is useful to you. I really have only been serious about reading the Bible for the last 3 or 4 years but I have been fortunate to sit under a lot of good teaching in my lifetime. I have a lot of experience with false teaching as well. I have also been in a number of positions where I really had to defend my beliefs and positions. It all stacks on top of itself and things start to get sorted out and weeded out and you start learning what it is that you believe.

Oregongrown
Nov 1st 2013, 05:57 PM
Oh, I have been posting on religious forums since I was about 16 and I cannot tell you how many times I have been pulled off into the weeds by people. I think this is really the first time that recognized the tactic and have been trying to put my foot down and not follow them.

We are in a battle, hard to remember sometimes it is against powers and principalities in the spiritual realm, not the person. I know for myself though, those powers can't operate in me unless I am not filled up with THE Word;) God bless your day, denise, ysic

Proverbs 3:5-7
Nov 1st 2013, 05:57 PM
Quote Originally Posted by Proverbs31Woman

As for Mark 16:17, that section of Mark 16 is not in any of the oldest and best manuscripts. You cannot base a doctrine off of it.


I have 22 Bible translations, and they all have this scripture in it. I think I will believe it to be true. You should to. What Bible translation can I see where this is not there?

it's also in the Interlineary Word for Word Diaglott from the Original Greek text {manuscript # 1209}

Slug1
Nov 1st 2013, 06:16 PM
.

He did not send out "all 70", what the passage says is "after this the Lord appointed seventy-two others..." (Luke 10:1) This is not saying that there were only 72 disciples and all were sent out and worked miracles, it is saying that Jesus appointed 72 from amongst the disciples. Appointing some from many is not appointing the whole body.



Where does it say that ALL believers have such authority? Where in scripture does it give an example of someone who was not specially appointed casting out demons? Every single one of the statements that you have given of Jesus giving people the authority to cast demons out where all given to a SELECT number of people who were specifically appointed for the task. It was not a blanket statement or command or commission. You will point out to me Mark 16. Mark 16 is the ONLY place where it implies that all believers will work miracles. But that section of Mark 16 is not in any of the original manuscripts and the parallel passage in Matthew does not have such a statement giving all believers such authority.



You mean people like Todd Bentley who punches and kicks people to "heal" them? Benny Hinn..."just send me your money and you will be healed"? How about the "pastors" in Africa who take the women up to the mountains to "cast out demons" and "heal" them by sexually assaulting them? Yeah, all over the world "pastors" are healing and casting out demons and in their wake they are leaving people who are sick and dying, poor, and knocked up. Do you think that is how the Apostles healed and cast demons out? Do you think that they were kicking people, taking their money and sexually assaulting them? The modern examples of those who claim to have authority over Satan do not match up with the scriptural examples that we have.


I am really grateful to have you share so much info I was not aware of. I'm only starting to read the bible myself, the rest I learned just from people, or at church/biblestudies. Now I am finding out first hand for myself. People posting what they know about the bible helps, even the false teachings at least show me what is not truth.P1W... (Denise, including you too so the truth of scripture helps you),

You say that not ALL the 70 get sent out? Let's read the verse together then:

Luke 10:1 After these things the Lord appointed seventy others also,[a] and sent them two by two before His face into every city and place where He Himself was about to go.

How can you read this verse and then twist it to say... NOT all the seventy went out? It even describes how they go, in two-by-two. Now, I'll agree this group was FROM the Body of Christ, not all the Body :)

Point being... normal people, learning about Christ, just like you and me.

Just by believing, you are appointed, some will say... CALLED by God even. All believers can do ALL that God has given to the Body of Christ and that is His authority over satan.

You also disrespect scripture because you DON'T believe a portion is real... well, this portion is in all KNOWN translations, and I will claim, this scripture is in the Bible you own and probably all translations you own. Jesus states that ALL believers will do what He says they will do. However and small group of doctrine followers don't want to believe this and say... that portion of the Bible isn't real.

As I stated in that one post, even if the Mark 16 verses were not in the Bible, ALL the other verses I raised SAY the same thing as the Mark verses do. So even if those Mark verses were not legit... that means ALL those other verses are also false all throughout the NT.

You dropped the Todd Bently card... not surprised. The Bible warns us of false teachers/prophets. But the Bible aslo warns us to test the spirit(s), the Body of Christ also has the gift of discernment of spirits and the purpose in testing spirits is to determine what IS of God and what is NOT of God.

So... if we are to test the spirits and all miracles have ceased, then why test the spirits as the Bible teaches? Why does the Body of Christ have the gift of discernment of spirits?

Proverbs31Woman
Nov 1st 2013, 06:17 PM
I have 22 Bible translations, and they all have this scripture in it. I think I will believe it to be true. You should to. What Bible translation can I see where this is not there?

Translations are not manuscripts. The Manuscripts are the documents that we get our translations from, they are old, very old, and handwritten. The oldest ones do not have Mark 16:9 and the verses that follow, a good Bible SHOULD be pointing that out to you. The reason why those verses are still left in the text, is because, since we don't have the original "autographs" penned by the NT writers themselves, it IS possible to be wrong, even though all of the evidence that we have says that they are not originally part of the book. There are other passages in the NT that have a similar issue (again, a good Bible should be pointing this out to you in either a footnote or a note within the text). The proper way to deal with such passages is to read it, understand it, but not make any beliefs or doctrine based completely on it. In other words, if something is taught ONLY in Mark 16:17 then we do not make that part of our beliefs or doctrine. It is not a good habit to base a belief on one passage anyway.

Slug1
Nov 1st 2013, 06:18 PM
We are in a battle, hard to remember sometimes it is against powers and principalities in the spiritual realm, not the person. I know for myself though, those powers can't operate in me unless I am not filled up with THE Word;) God bless your day, denise, ysicWhat are you going to do for a person who does have satan's forces operating in them?

Oregongrown
Nov 1st 2013, 06:19 PM
[QUOTE=Proverbs31Woman;3065494]I am glad that my knowledge is useful to you. I really have only been serious about reading the Bible for the last 3 or 4 years but I have been fortunate to sit under a lot of good teaching in my lifetime. I have a lot of experience with false teaching as well. I have also been in a number of positions where I really had to defend my beliefs and positions. It all stacks on top of itself and things start to get sorted out and weeded out and you start learning what it is that you believe.[/QUOTE

We do have to be prepared,

1 Peter 3:15

New King James Version (NKJV)

15 But sanctify the Lord God[a] in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear;

That was one I heard, maybe read at one time in my life.

I also believe in the Sword of the Spirit (the Word) the best weapon because that is what Jesus used against satan, as well as His enemies (pharisees etc). He is the Word, so of course what He said was Truth. What we have in the Gospels, I mean Jesus' words.

Oregongrown
Nov 1st 2013, 06:22 PM
What are you going to do for a person who does have satan's forces operating in them?

Just the same as everything else that God allows to come my way, He will prepare me, teach me. I'll just keep reading the Word (Christ), Him I trust completely. I get the feeling you are trying to draw out the weaker of the herd here, don't count on me being unarmed though;)

Curtis
Nov 1st 2013, 06:28 PM
Translations are not manuscripts. The Manuscripts are the documents that we get our translations from, they are old, very old, and handwritten. The oldest ones do not have Mark 16:9 and the verses that follow, a good Bible SHOULD be pointing that out to you. The reason why those verses are still left in the text, is because, since we don't have the original "autographs" penned by the NT writers themselves, it IS possible to be wrong, even though all of the evidence that we have says that they are not originally part of the book. There are other passages in the NT that have a similar issue (again, a good Bible should be pointing this out to you in either a footnote or a note within the text). The proper way to deal with such passages is to read it, understand it, but not make any beliefs or doctrine based completely on it. In other words, if something is taught ONLY in Mark 16:17 then we do not make that part of our beliefs or doctrine. It is not a good habit to base a belief on one passage anyway.

I understand what you are saying. I would think that if this was not an important scripture, it would not have found its place in every single Bible written. I guess nobody wants to take a chance and leave it out because it might not go well with them if they did.

Curtis
Nov 1st 2013, 06:32 PM
Not sure if someone has already mentioned this scripture....

Joh 14:12 "Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father.

Proverbs 3:5-7
Nov 1st 2013, 06:45 PM
Translations are not manuscripts. The Manuscripts are the documents that we get our translations from, they are old, very old, and handwritten.


like how MANUSCRIPT # 1209 being the Interlineary Word for Word Diaglott of the Original Greek text...

AND the Ancient Eastern text from the Aramaic of the Pes h i t t ta ALSO contain ALL 20 verses of Mark 16

Proverbs 3:5-7
Nov 1st 2013, 06:50 PM
Not sure if someone has already mentioned this scripture....

Joh 14:12 "Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father.


thank you :hug: so much! for quoting the Words of Our Lord & Savior Jesus Christ

THE Author & Finisher of Our Faith :amen:

Redeemed by Grace
Nov 1st 2013, 06:52 PM
Are you saying that there will be sin in the world while satan is bound for most of that 1000 years?

In like manner: John 3:10 Jesus answered and said to him, "Are you the teacher of Israel and do not understand these things?

Oregongrown
Nov 1st 2013, 06:56 PM
thank you :hug: so much! for quoting the Words of Our Lord & Savior Jesus Christ

THE Author & Finisher of Our Faith :amen:

But in context this verse is Jesus talking to His disciples, those given the authority? I mean, I don't know anything for sure here but I am researching because P31W has pointed out some excellent material to me anyway.

Slug1
Nov 1st 2013, 06:57 PM
In like manner: John 3:10 Jesus answered and said to him, "Are you the teacher of Israel and do not understand these things?I understand that there will be no sin during that period until satan is once again released and then, the deceiving begins again.

If sin is in the heart as you say based on a few scriptures, yet during that period of time there is not sin... why?

Is it because the sin is the result of the decieving and temptations of satan as the Bible teaches?

Proverbs 3:5-7
Nov 1st 2013, 06:59 PM
I also believe in the Sword of the Spirit (the Word) the best weapon because that is what Jesus used against satan, as well as His enemies (pharisees etc). He is the Word, so of course what He said was Truth. What we have in the Gospels, I mean Jesus' words.



:amen: to this!... Jesus is the Way, the Truth & the Life... no doubt about it!

Slug1
Nov 1st 2013, 06:59 PM
Just the same as everything else that God allows to come my way, He will prepare me, teach me. I'll just keep reading the Word (Christ), Him I trust completely. I get the feeling you are trying to draw out the weaker of the herd here, don't count on me being unarmed though;)NO, I just want you to know you CAN do something about it. But P1W says you can't... maybe she can't due to her belief, but ALL in the Body of Christ can, due to what the Bible teaches us and simply because God gave us the authority.

Oregongrown
Nov 1st 2013, 07:08 PM
Ok, just so you might see where I am after Truth, not taking up with personalities here. I found these verse in Mark 9, NKJV:

38 Now John answered Him, saying, “Teacher, we saw someone who does not follow us casting out demons in Your name, and we forbade him because he does not follow us.”

39 But Jesus said, “Do not forbid him, for no one who works a miracle in My name can soon afterward speak evil of Me. 40 For he who is not against us is on our[c] side. 41 For whoever gives you a cup of water to drink in My name, because you belong to Christ, assuredly, I say to you, he will by no means lose his reward.

I don't know if this would pertain to this discussion. The heading in Biblegateway, says Jesus forbids Sectarianism. I didn't know what that was so here is the definition I found:

1sec·tar·i·an
adjective \sek-ˈter-ē-ən\

: relating to religious or political sects and the differences between them

sects I'm not sure of either so looked that up:

1sect
noun \ˈsekt\

: a religious group that is a smaller part of a larger group and whose members all share similar beliefs

I'm open to comments on this because this says to me that Jesus did allow for others without authority to cast out in His name. But I also got the feeling these were unbelievers, not true believers I mean, and they thought Jesus name was magic. But Jesus is saying here that if they did a miracle by His name, they would convert or believe, just my take?

Proverbs 3:5-7
Nov 1st 2013, 07:34 PM
Quote Originally Posted by Proverbs 3:5-7

thank you so much! for quoting the Words of Our Lord & Savior Jesus Christ

THE Author & Finisher of Our Faith



But in context this verse is Jesus talking to His disciples, those given the authority? I mean, I don't know anything for sure here but I am researching because P31W has pointed out some excellent material to me anyway.


I've also found a few points that I DO AGREE with P31W about & really WANT to find some more common ground with her (in The Word)... & I honestly DO WISH that there were NOT so many disagreements between us, you know?...

but any Believers' FOREMOST priority & loyalty should be to God & the Integrity of His Word...

which is WHY I cannot agree with her assertion about ONLY a select dew & a select time period... because it's in direct contradiction to the WHOLE Truth of Scripture (EVEN the Words of Christ) you know?...

I cannot DENY that He said "WHOSOEVER BELIEVETH in Me"

Oregongrown
Nov 1st 2013, 07:37 PM
NO, I just want you to know you CAN do something about it. But P1W says you can't... maybe she can't due to her belief, but ALL in the Body of Christ can, due to what the Bible teaches us and simply because God gave us the authority.

No, she didn't say we can't do something about it, she said we say "the Lord rebuke you", not "I rebuke in the name of Jesus". I know exactly what to do about anything I face in this life, call on the Lord. Now I may not always do that, but I am learning to do that in all things. Her verses are showing that not all are given authority, and I am searching on my own too now. If you want to provide verses, in context that prove all believers are meant to have the authority, please do. Maybe you did and I missed them, you know how I am. Way not perfect, at a lot of things, and one thing is reading, and finding posts I think have disappeared:lol:

Slug1
Nov 1st 2013, 07:37 PM
Ok, just so you might see where I am after Truth, not taking up with personalities here. I found these verse in Mark 9, NKJV:

38 Now John answered Him, saying, “Teacher, we saw someone who does not follow us casting out demons in Your name, and we forbade him because he does not follow us.”

39 But Jesus said, “Do not forbid him, for no one who works a miracle in My name can soon afterward speak evil of Me. 40 For he who is not against us is on our[c] side. 41 For whoever gives you a cup of water to drink in My name, because you belong to Christ, assuredly, I say to you, he will by no means lose his reward.

I don't know if this would pertain to this discussion. The heading in Biblegateway, says Jesus forbids Sectarianism. I didn't know what that was so here is the definition I found:

1sec·tar·i·an
adjective \sek-ˈter-ē-ən\

: relating to religious or political sects and the differences between them

sects I'm not sure of either so looked that up:

1sect
noun \ˈsekt\

: a religious group that is a smaller part of a larger group and whose members all share similar beliefs

I'm open to comments on this because this says to me that Jesus did allow for others without authority to cast out in His name. But I also got the feeling these were unbelievers, not true believers I mean, and they thought Jesus name was magic. But Jesus is saying here that if they did a miracle by His name, they would convert or believe, just my take?You will see in a previous post I raised this same scripture, to make the same point as yours and other points but the truth remains... God does His work through anyone He wants and for the Body of Christ, those who do His work are identified by Jesus... ALL believers.

Slug1
Nov 1st 2013, 07:45 PM
No, she didn't say we can't do something about it, she said we say "the Lord rebuke you", not "I rebuke in the name of Jesus". I know exactly what to do about anything I face in this life, call on the Lord. Now I may not always do that, but I am learning to do that in all things. Her verses are showing that not all are given authority, and I am searching on my own too now. If you want to provide verses, in context that prove all believers are meant to have the authority, please do. Maybe you did and I missed them, you know how I am. Way not perfect, at a lot of things, and one thing is reading, and finding posts I think have disappeared:lol:

Mark 16:15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”

John 14:12 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father. 13 And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you ask[c] anything in My name, I will do it.

These are some that immediately come to mind. In the Mark 16 verses.... Jesus is speaking to the Apostles and P1W says that since He's talking to the Apostles only the Apostles can do what is given to believers to do. However, read the verse and believers, all the those(s), all the they(s), is all about who the believers are and they are anyone in the Body of Christ. Not just the Apostles and people they picked.

Oregongrown
Nov 1st 2013, 07:47 PM
Quote Originally Posted by Proverbs 3:5-7

thank you so much! for quoting the Words of Our Lord & Savior Jesus Christ

THE Author & Finisher of Our Faith



I've also found a few points that I DO AGREE with P31W about & really WANT to find some more common ground with her (in The Word)... & I honestly DO WISH that there were NOT so many disagreements between us, you know?...

but any Believers' FOREMOST priority & loyalty should be to God & the Integrity of His Word...

which is WHY I cannot agree with her assertion about ONLY a select dew & a select time period... because it's in direct contradiction to the WHOLE Truth of Scripture (EVEN the Words of Christ) you know?...

I cannot DENY that He said "WHOSOEVER BELIEVETH in Me"

There will always be disagreement as long as we are in the flesh, I would like it to be different as well. I don't think there is anything wrong with telling what we believe, standing on it, as long as we don't tear another person down. Like these verses teach us:

Matthew 10:16-24 (wanted them in context)
11 “Now whatever city or town you enter, inquire who in it is worthy, and stay there till you go out. 12 And when you go into a household, greet it. 13 If the household is worthy, let your peace come upon it. But if it is not worthy, let your peace return to you. 14 And whoever will not receive you nor hear your words, when you depart from that house or city, shake off the dust from your feet. 15 Assuredly, I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city!

To me this doesn't say argue or pressure them to see the Way, but it says to leave them to God if they don't want to listen. On the forums, it almost like we think we are supposed to cram our belief down someone else, instead of share our belief, and let other accept or not. We fight to have the last word, and pride rears it's ugly head.

I have been guilty of all of it, but I am aware of it, and don't like what I see. God is revealing things to me each day, where He wants me to let go and let Him change me.

Proverbs 3:5-7
Nov 1st 2013, 07:48 PM
Ok, just so you might see where I am after Truth, not taking up with personalities here. I found these verse in Mark 9, NKJV:

38 Now John answered Him, saying, “Teacher, we saw someone who does not follow us casting out demons in Your name, and we forbade him because he does not follow us.”

39 But Jesus said, “Do not forbid him, for no one who works a miracle in My name can soon afterward speak evil of Me.
40 For he who is not against us is on our side. :)
41 For whoever gives you a cup of water to drink in My name, because you belong to Christ, assuredly, I say to you, he will by no means lose his reward.


I very much appreciate :hug: your search for the Truth & quoting this additional Scripture for discussion... I honestly do

Oregongrown
Nov 1st 2013, 07:53 PM
Mark 16:15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”

John 14:12 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father. 13 And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you ask[c] anything in My name, I will do it.

These are some that immediately come to mind. In the Mark 16 verses.... Jesus is speaking to the Apostles and P1W says that since He's talking to the Apostles only the Apostles can do what is given to believers to do. However, read the verse and believers, all the those(s), all the they(s), is all about who the believers are and they are anyone in the Body of Christ. Not just the Apostles and people they picked.

and as P31W mentioned, which I will look into to decide, are not included in early manuscripts (some of) I want to know why, so again, I'll research. Then, the John one I can even see Jesus was speaking to those give authority.

Taking John out of context makes it look good, in context, not a very good verse to prove your point. Mark 16 is in my bible too, but even so, that is not a whole lot of evidence, 1 verse? Like I said, I have to do some research on Mark 16.

Do you have any others?

Oregongrown
Nov 1st 2013, 07:58 PM
I very much appreciate :hug: your search for the Truth & quoting this additional Scripture for discussion... I honestly do

I appreciate your participation as well, I prefer to believe we are all here for Truth. I mean, it gets hard for me to "get" scripture when so much isn't written down. What is the saying about "if Jesus words had all been written down, we wouldn't have room to put them. But one thing I am certain of, what God wanted us to know is written;) So here's a hug back since I would do it in person too:hug:

Now we might get picked on for being all mushy but there's also verses about greeting each other with a kiss, in the bible;)

Oregongrown
Nov 1st 2013, 08:04 PM
You will see in a previous post I raised this same scripture, to make the same point as yours and other points but the truth remains... God does His work through anyone He wants and for the Body of Christ, those who do His work are identified by Jesus... ALL believers.

but you aren't providing scripture to prove that He says that slug? My verses above are not proving that either. I thought it was pertinent to the discussion, but more to ask what other thought about these sects. I lean towards the idea this is a different case. Asking for feedback on that. As I mentioned, these that were casting out demons in the name of Jesus, were not of the followers of Christ, right? Unless I read it wrong.

Slug1
Nov 1st 2013, 08:07 PM
and as P31W mentioned, which I will look into to decide, are not included in early manuscripts (some of) I want to know why, so again, I'll research. Then, the John one I can even see Jesus was speaking to those give authority.

Taking John out of context makes it look good, in context, not a very good verse to prove your point. Mark 16 is in my bible too, but even so, that is not a whole lot of evidence, 1 verse? Like I said, I have to do some research on Mark 16.

Do you have any others?Since testimony of what is going on out there in the world isn't any good, not the false stuff that is raised to prove a point... but in a way does backfire because false prophets only prove the real deal MUST also be going on from God as well. Those verses stand strongly in support that it is the believers in the Body of Christ that God continues to do His work through.

You will find the Mark 16 verses will stand firm under your investigation. Only those who follow the cessationist doctrine believe those scriptures are false. They have too... or what they have chosen to follow, fails against scripture. It is not JUST those Mark 16 verses that supports beleivers will do this work... in that post I did a couple years back, it is a chronological study of how Jesus taught the Body of Christ, beginning with 12 and let them do the impossible, to the 70, to the entire Body of Christ. So even if those Mark 16 verse did not exist, all those other scriptures show us the same teaching as the Mark 16 verses.

I encourage you to do all the research as we have... we had to learn and by our research, ACCEPT the scriptures and THEIR truth and put down the false understand we had that was ultimately turning us into unbelievers by denying the scriptures.

I speak for myself.... I was once bound in the cessationist doctrine but God freed me.

I can go find that post if you like... it has more scripture to show you exactly the same as the Mark 16 scriptures.

Proverbs 3:5-7
Nov 1st 2013, 08:09 PM
Her verses are showing that not all are given authority, and I am searching on my own too now.


are the ACTUAL verses really showing that? :hmm: OR is it her opinion projected about them that forms the bias?



If you want to provide verses, in context that prove all believers are meant to have the authority, please do.


:confused there have been plenty of Scriptures quoted already

Slug1
Nov 1st 2013, 08:14 PM
are the ACTUAL verses really showing that? :hmm: OR is it her opinion projected about them that forms the bias?



:confused there have been plenty of Scriptures quoted already Good point(s). She also said not all the 70 went out but I posted the verse so we can all read it together... they ALL where sent out, 2by2.

Slug1
Nov 1st 2013, 08:15 PM
but you aren't providing scripture to prove that He says that slug? My verses above are not proving that either. I thought it was pertinent to the discussion, but more to ask what other thought about these sects. I lean towards the idea this is a different case. Asking for feedback on that. As I mentioned, these that were casting out demons in the name of Jesus, were not of the followers of Christ, right? Unless I read it wrong.Cool avatar... remind me of this post. I have to leave for church in a few and we have service so I'll be home late. The main point... despite trying to understand the scriptures, they actually refute what she is saying. The Apostles were NOT the only ones with the authority... that is boiling it down and looking at what the Bible says compared to what P1W says. She is a cessationist, ALL she says will be aligned with what she chose to believe, not what the Bible says.

She will only point out the false prophets out there in the world and say, "see, I'm right" and then ignore the believers doing the work of God out there in the world, casting out demons, healing the sick, raising the dead. And when a Christian testifies of the casting out demons, healing the sick, and raising the dead, she will drag the work of the Holy Spirit through the dirt.

That is what cessationists do so they can continue to follow their doctrine... drag the Holy Spirit through the dirt because it's not the believer doing it, it's the Holy Spirit doing it all THROUGH the believer and the believer only has what follows them glorifying God, ALL DUE to the Holy Spirit.

Proverbs 3:5-7
Nov 1st 2013, 08:35 PM
We fight to have the last word, and pride rears it's ugly head.



just a few questions to prayerfully ponder :pray: okay?...
& given the Forum rules that all members are accountable to Christ in all we say & do here...

do you think that God wants somebody who's contradicting & denying Scriptures to have the last word?...

to be projecting their own biased opinions OVER what the Biblical text plainly says :hmm: how is that NOT a form of tearing down the Integrity & Authority of God's Word?

also HOPE you'll realize how a loyal Believer's ZEAL for God & carnal PRIDE are 2 very different things

divaD
Nov 1st 2013, 08:45 PM
But in context this verse is Jesus talking to His disciples, those given the authority? I mean, I don't know anything for sure here but I am researching because P31W has pointed out some excellent material to me anyway.


Unfortunately that's not always the way it works. It is of course important to pay attention to context. But a person also has to be consistent when they interpret something. If you apply John 14:12 only to those disciples at the time, that means to remain consistent you would have to apply everything else He said to just those disciples at the time, which goes all the way to the end of John 17. And speaking of that chapter, notice what it says here.

John 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

This makes it pretty clear that Jesus didn't just have those particular disciples in mind at the time. Now compare the following.

John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

John 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

According to John 17:20, one way to believe on Jesus is through those disciples word.
That can mean different things, such as one back then heard these disciples preach and believed on Jesus through their word. It could also mean that someone new to the Bible, but unsure about things, when they read some of the recorded acts of some of these disciples, such as in the book of Acts, they then believe their testimony about what they say about Jesus, thus they believe on Jesus through their word. These folks recorded in the Bible might be physically dead now, but their words are not. So you see then, Jesus was equipping these disciples so that they could equip other disciples, with those disciples doing the same thing, so on and so on. That way there is a always a link back to these disciples at the time, even today.

Curtis
Nov 1st 2013, 09:11 PM
Unfortunately that's not always the way it works. It is of course important to pay attention to context. But a person also has to be consistent when they interpret something. If you apply John 14:12 only to those disciples at the time, that means to remain consistent you would have to apply everything else He said to just those disciples at the time, which goes all the way to the end of John 17. And speaking of that chapter, notice what it says here.

John 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

This makes it pretty clear that Jesus didn't just have those particular disciples in mind at the time. Now compare the following.

John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

John 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

According to John 17:20, one way to believe on Jesus is through those disciples word.
That can mean different things, such as one back then heard these disciples preach and believed on Jesus through their word. It could also mean that someone new to the Bible, but unsure about things, when they read some of the recorded acts of some of these disciples, such as in the book of Acts, they then believe their testimony about what they say about Jesus, thus they believe on Jesus through their word. These folks recorded in the Bible might be physically dead now, but their words are not. So you see then, Jesus was equipping these disciples so that they could equip other disciples, with those disciples doing the same thing, so on and so on. That way there is a always a link back to these disciples at the time, even today.

Great scripture John in 17:20, I was thinking about using that one when time was needed, I guess that time has already passed me while I was out Christmas shopping with my wife. :)

Proverbs31Woman
Nov 1st 2013, 09:40 PM
I understand what you are saying. I would think that if this was not an important scripture, it would not have found its place in every single Bible written. I guess nobody wants to take a chance and leave it out because it might not go well with them if they did.

It is like I said, we don't have the autographs (the original documents that where penned by the NT writers) so there is a small chance that they might have been in the autographs, dropped, and then put back in. All we know, is that, in the case of Mark 16:9ff it is not in the oldest manuscripts that we have. Since nothing in these particular passages contradicts anything else in scripture it is left in. Now, had there been something that was in direct conflict with known Scripture, they would have been removed.

Oregongrown
Nov 1st 2013, 10:09 PM
[QUOTE]Since testimony of what is going on out there in the world isn't any good, not the false stuff that is raised to prove a point

Only what you say is evidently reliable testimony?

... but in a way does backfire because false prophets only prove the real deal MUST also be going on from God as well.


Those verses stand strongly in support that it is the believers in the Body of Christ that God continues to do His work through.

I disagree, and those seem to be the only 2 you can come up with? Shouldn't something so important to you have more texts on it?


You will find the Mark 16 verses will stand firm under your investigation.

We will see, but you have no way of knowing.



Only those who follow the cessationist doctrine believe those scriptures are false.

I can tell you right now that's not true, I think that there are signs to show us end-times for example.



They have too... or what they have chosen to follow, fails against scripture.

Yours certainly has, failed against the scripture I've seen today. At the very least, it hasn't proven your side of it.


It is not JUST those Mark 16 verses that supports beleivers will do this work... in that post I did a couple years back, it is a chronological study of how Jesus taught the Body of Christ, beginning with 12 and let them do the impossible, to the 70, to the entire Body of Christ. So even if those Mark 16 verse did not exist, all those other scriptures show us the same teaching as the Mark 16 verses.

So where are these verses, If they are in the bible, why are they so hard for you to produce.


I encourage you to do all the research as we have... we had to learn and by our research, ACCEPT the scriptures and THEIR truth and put down the false understand we had that was ultimately turning us into unbelievers by denying the scriptures.

You are losing credibility with me every time you post here.


I speak for myself.... I was once bound in the cessationist doctrine but God freed me.

You say this as if I am stuck in it, not true as I stated above. For one thing, I believe in the gifts of the Spirit, but I don't believe every one that claims to have any of those gifts.


I can go find that post if you like... it has more scripture to show you exactly the same as the Mark 16 scriptures.

I will not go just by someone else's experience, or their interpretation of the Word. I will continue to read, as I've mentioned at least a few times. Lets just agree to disagree. To me this is a waste of the time I could be spending elsewhere.

Proverbs31Woman
Nov 1st 2013, 10:19 PM
like how MANUSCRIPT # 1209 being the Interlineary Word for Word Diaglott of the Original Greek text...

AND the Ancient Eastern text from the Aramaic of the Pes h i t t ta ALSO contain ALL 20 verses of Mark 16

Manuscript #1209, Codex Vaticanus (B) does NOT contain Mark 16:9-20.

The Pe****ta is a TRANSLATION, not a manuscript and is not as old as Codex Vaticanus.

EDIT: LOL, now I know why you spelled Pe****ta the way you did, it get blocked as a swear word!

Oregongrown
Nov 1st 2013, 10:22 PM
just a few questions to prayerfully ponder :pray: okay?...
& given the Forum rules that


all members are accountable to Christ in all we say & do here...

hopefully all members are, I guess even non-believers will be accountable to Christ one day.


do you think that God wants somebody who's contradicting & denying Scriptures to have the last word?...

you don't actually believe that Jesus ever worried about having the last word, believers DO have the last Word, don't we:)


to be projecting their own biased opinions OVER what the Biblical text plainly says :hmm: how is that NOT a form of tearing down the Integrity & Authority of God's Word?

also HOPE you'll realize how a loyal Believer's ZEAL for God & carnal PRIDE are 2 very different things

I am pretty sure I can recognize zeal for God over pride, although if I'm wrong, God certainly points it out to me. Who can stand against us? He Who is in us is stronger than he who is in the world. I think some confusion comes when the "natural man/woman" is trying to run the show, rather than allowing the Holy Spirit to direct us.

Ok, I've been out exercising, need a shower, and some food now. What I do think is that we have possibly several interpretations of the Word here. We may again, have to agree to disagree. I for one am not feeling led to waste time if I think we are not getting anywhere. Not just you and I, I mean the whole thread.

later, denise, a sister in Christ

Oregongrown
Nov 1st 2013, 10:30 PM
Manuscript #1209, Codex Vaticanus (B) does NOT contain Mark 16:9-20.

The Pe****ta is a TRANSLATION, not a manuscript and is not as old as Codex Vaticanus.

EDIT: LOL, now I know why you spelled Pe****ta the way you did, it get blocked as a swear word!

I'm amazed at some of the things you guys have studied. Well, maybe I'll get to one day but first things first, God's Word;)

shower time, food, and no doubt I shall return;) denise, a sister in Christ

PS atleast we don't have an auto-fill like in texting, if we didn't proofread carefully, we would all get sent to the corner:lol:

Slug1
Nov 1st 2013, 10:32 PM
[QUOTE=Slug1;3065557]

Only what you say is evidently reliable testimony?

... but in a way does backfire because false prophets only prove the real deal MUST also be going on from God as well.



I disagree, and those seem to be the only 2 you can come up with? Shouldn't something so important to you have more texts on it?



We will see, but you have no way of knowing.




I can tell you right now that's not true, I think that there are signs to show us end-times for example.




Yours certainly has, failed against the scripture I've seen today. At the very least, it hasn't proven your side of it.



So where are these verses, If they are in the bible, why are they so hard for you to produce.



You are losing credibility with me every time you post here.


You say this as if I am stuck in it, not true as I stated above. For one thing, I believe in the gifts of the Spirit, but I don't believe every one that claims to have any of those gifts.



I will not go just by someone else's experience, or their interpretation of the Word. I will continue to read, as I've mentioned at least a few times. Lets just agree to disagree. To me this is a waste of the time I could be spending elsewhere.My credibility don't matter actually and that card don't work. I post the verses and as I stated, while you don't like the two I posted, they're about a dozen more posted throughout the thread. Looking at what P1W just posted, even she now states that ALL those other verses SUPPORT the two I posted, one of which is from Mark 16.

The reason you say my comments are not true about cessationists is because you are not one and you do believe in the miracles of God? That doesn't prove I'm wrong... I'm speaking from experience. I had to FORCE myself not to believe and to not accept those scriptures. If I believed them, I would not be a cessationist. Simply surrendering to God and accepting His Word and truth in the Word, freed me from bondage to that doctrine.

What I've been saying has not failed against the scriptures, you "say" they fail due to how you understand them. You claim I posted only two and that they don't add up... there are more and as I said, even P1W just said they add up to say/teach the same as the two I posted do.

So what isn't adding up for you in all the many (beyond just those two) scriptures concerning that ALL believers in the Body of Christ will do as Jesus did, as the Apostles did? The task for the Body of Christ is not the same as the Apostles in standing up a church Body, but the authority of God to accomplish the WORK of God IS the same for all the Body of Christ. And actually, I can't say the task is not the same... many Christians are out in the world, standing up churches and they are casting out demons, healing, and raising the dead.

All Believer have and can utilize the SAME authority that the Apostles were given. All Believers have and can use the SAME authority that the Seventy were given. WHY? Because Jesus said... ALL BELIEVERS WILL DO. The same Holy Spirit, the same gifts of the Holy Spirit, the same authority through Christ's name, ALL BELIEVERS have this, just as those in the Bible did.

As for the testimony I give, I understand it will be slammed, because you CAN slam it and when Christians out there in the world testify and those testimonies are written in Christian text(s), they are ignored or slammed too. Persecution abounds and it comes from within the Body of Christ most of the time. But... WHO are the ones slamming and ignoring those testimonies? Not any of those who believe and are doing the same in Jesus name themselves... only the unbelievers are slamming and ignoring all the testimony given. If they glorified God through the praising of testimony, then they'd be believers but they CAN'T HAVE that... they MUST follow their doctrine and thus, that means they make every effort to slam or just ignore testimony no matter WHO or WHERE from.

Proverbs31Woman
Nov 1st 2013, 10:35 PM
but you aren't providing scripture to prove that He says that slug? My verses above are not proving that either. I thought it was pertinent to the discussion, but more to ask what other thought about these sects. I lean towards the idea this is a different case. Asking for feedback on that. As I mentioned, these that were casting out demons in the name of Jesus, were not of the followers of Christ, right? Unless I read it wrong.

Now, I could be totally wrong, but it appears that maybe Jesus allowed it because if the person doing the work saw the result then He would become a follower. Here is what the note says in my Bible, "Jesus ordered them not to hinder the exorcist, making the logical point that someone sincerely acting in his name would not soon turn against him. There is no neutral ground regarding Jesus Christ; those who are 'not against' him are on his side, but by the same token, 'whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters' (Matt. 12:30).
I personally still don't think that this one verse is enough evidence to change my mind on the matter and even if it did change how I viewed the people who cast out demons in Biblical times it is not going to change my thought about it not being for today.

Proverbs31Woman
Nov 1st 2013, 10:52 PM
The main point... despite trying to understand the scriptures, they actually refute what she is saying. The Apostles were NOT the only ones with the authority... that is boiling it down and looking at what the Bible says compared to what P1W says. She is a cessationist, ALL she says will be aligned with what she chose to believe, not what the Bible says.

She will only point out the false prophets out there in the world and say, "see, I'm right" and then ignore the believers doing the work of God out there in the world, casting out demons, healing the sick, raising the dead. And when a Christian testifies of the casting out demons, healing the sick, and raising the dead, she will drag the work of the Holy Spirit through the dirt.

That is what cessationists do so they can continue to follow their doctrine... drag the Holy Spirit through the dirt because it's not the believer doing it, it's the Holy Spirit doing it all THROUGH the believer and the believer only has what follows them glorifying God, ALL DUE to the Holy Spirit.

All that I have said does align with the Scriptures (just not your interpretation of it), and YES I am a cessationist and the reason that I am is because those who claim to work such miracles today and cast out demons do not line up with how it was done in the Bible. The FRUIT of those people speaks against them.

The only people who are dragging the Holy Spirit through the dirt are those who act drunk, claiming that that is being "filled with the spirit", who punch people in the face and stomach, claiming that that heals them, and who roll around laughing at nothing. The Holy Spirit does not behave that way and we ALL should be able to agree that such behavior as that is what drags the Holy Spirit through the mud and makes Him a laughingstock.

Why don't you give me the names of some people who are casting out demons, etc and are not "false prophets" and I will go and look them up online and see for myself and judge for myself.

Proverbs31Woman
Nov 1st 2013, 10:56 PM
What are you going to do for a person who does have satan's forces operating in them?

What we are told to do, PRAY!

Proverbs31Woman
Nov 1st 2013, 10:59 PM
NO, I just want you to know you CAN do something about it. But P1W says you can't... maybe she can't due to her belief, but ALL in the Body of Christ can, due to what the Bible teaches us and simply because God gave us the authority.

I never said that one cannot do anything about it. I just said that we are not to go about it the way that you say that we should. You say we should engage Satan directly by shouting at him or talking to him and I say that we pray to God and ask HIM to deal with it.

Proverbs31Woman
Nov 1st 2013, 11:13 PM
Since testimony of what is going on out there in the world isn't any good, not the false stuff that is raised to prove a point... but in a way does backfire because false prophets only prove the real deal MUST also be going on from God as well.

How do you figure that false prophets prove that the real deal is still going on? Can't the falsies be looking at the Scriptures and saying, "oooh, I want that!" and then imitating something that is not longer in existance? Let's face it we humans are quite obsessed with superpowers. What child does not grow up watching things like batman, superman, wonderwoman, etc wishing that they had superpowers?


You will find the Mark 16 verses will stand firm under your investigation. Only those who follow the cessationist doctrine believe those scriptures are false

I don't think that that is true. I think that the majority thinking is that they are not original (which is why Bibles always include some sort of note raising the doubts of the authenticity). It has nothing to do with Cessationism.

Curtis
Nov 1st 2013, 11:35 PM
Let's face it we humans are quite obsessed with superpowers. What child does not grow up watching things like batman, superman, wonderwoman, etc wishing that they had superpowers?
The reason mankind is so obsessed with power is because he was created by God to have authority over all the works of God's hands. That desire is inherently built into every man.

Proverbs31Woman
Nov 1st 2013, 11:39 PM
The reason mankind is so obsessed with power is because he was created by God to have authority over all the works of God's hands. It is inherently built into every man.

Just because we desire the power that God has does not mean that all are GIVEN the power. I think it speaks more towards man wanting to be God than it does anything else.

Proverbs31Woman
Nov 1st 2013, 11:52 PM
just a few questions to prayerfully ponder okay?...
& given the Forum rules that all members are accountable to Christ in all we say & do here...

do you think that God wants somebody who's contradicting & denying Scriptures to have the last word?...

to be projecting their own biased opinions OVER what the Biblical text plainly says how is that NOT a form of tearing down the Integrity & Authority of God's Word?

also HOPE you'll realize how a loyal Believer's ZEAL for God & carnal PRIDE are 2 very different things

Okay, maybe I am overanalyzing this but are you trying to insinuate that I am denying and contradicting Scripture (and that is why you are fighting for the last word?), and that I am projecting my own biased opinion over the Bible (BTW, my own "biased opinion comes from my reading and studying scripture thank you very much), that I am tearing down the integrity and authority of God's Word, and that you are a loyal believer who has zeal for God and I have carnal pride (apparently I am not a loyal believer and I am not zealous for God)...seriously, is that what you are insinuating?

Curtis
Nov 1st 2013, 11:55 PM
Just because we desire the power that God has does not mean that all are GIVEN the power. I think it speaks more towards man wanting to be God than it does anything else.

Do you think that Jesus has power over Satan and all demonic spirits?

Proverbs31Woman
Nov 1st 2013, 11:58 PM
Do you think that Jesus has power over Satan and all demonic spirits?

Um, yeah, Jesus is God so of course He has power over Satan and all demonic angels. He has power over heavenly angels as well.

Oregongrown
Nov 2nd 2013, 12:00 AM
Now, I could be totally wrong, but it appears that maybe Jesus allowed it because if the person doing the work saw the result then He would become a follower. Here is what the note says in my Bible, "Jesus ordered them not to hinder the exorcist, making the logical point that someone sincerely acting in his name would not soon turn against him. There is no neutral ground regarding Jesus Christ; those who are 'not against' him are on his side, but by the same token, 'whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters' (Matt. 12:30).
I personally still don't think that this one verse is enough evidence to change my mind on the matter and even if it did change how I viewed the people who cast out demons in Biblical times it is not going to change my thought about it not being for today.



Yes, like I see it, which I may be interpreting it wrong, but I see it as a different situation then people that are saved, that think, or believe they are faith healers. I mean, I don't know if anyone can do that today, the thing I look for is scripture, I can count on God's Word. When anyone just wants to go on and on about their own experience, or provide little scripture to back it up, or just type what's coming out of their head (commentary, their interpretation) I don't mind hearing it, reading it, but my final authority is God's Word, with His Holy Spirit teaching me.

Interesting subject, it's kept me interested. I think I'm understanding that verse on "clanging symbol" though because when some do posts without the least bit of love, humility, or any sign of Jesus, it's just taking up space imo.

Oregongrown
Nov 2nd 2013, 12:13 AM
are the ACTUAL verses really showing that? :hmm: OR is it her opinion projected about them that forms the bias?



:confused there have been plenty of Scriptures quoted already

what part of "I'm searching on my own" did you not get?

and no, 2 verses is all, Johns, and Mark 16, I'll never forget that one.

Curtis
Nov 2nd 2013, 12:15 AM
Um, yeah, Jesus is God so of course He has power over Satan and all demonic angels. He has power over heavenly angels as well.

Eph 1:16 Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;
Eph 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
Eph 1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
Eph 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
Eph 1:21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
Eph 1:22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
Eph 1:23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

If Jesus is our head, and he is, and he has all power and authority over every principality, and powers, not only in this world but also that which is to come, then we (his Church) also have that same power because we are his body.

Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
Col 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

We are complete in him who is the head of all principality and power. The Church today as authority over all angels, demons, and Satan him self, because he is our heard and we are his body.

Oregongrown
Nov 2nd 2013, 12:16 AM
Cool avatar... remind me of this post. I have to leave for church in a few and we have service so I'll be home late. The main point... despite trying to understand the scriptures, they actually refute what she is saying. The Apostles were NOT the only ones with the authority... that is boiling it down and looking at what the Bible says compared to what P1W says. She is a cessationist, ALL she says will be aligned with what she chose to believe, not what the Bible says.

She will only point out the false prophets out there in the world and say, "see, I'm right" and then ignore the believers doing the work of God out there in the world, casting out demons, healing the sick, raising the dead. And when a Christian testifies of the casting out demons, healing the sick, and raising the dead, she will drag the work of the Holy Spirit through the dirt.

That is what cessationists do so they can continue to follow their doctrine... drag the Holy Spirit through the dirt because it's not the believer doing it, it's the Holy Spirit doing it all THROUGH the believer and the believer only has what follows them glorifying God, ALL DUE to the Holy Spirit.


Oh yeah, I can't wait to read more of your stuff:B :lol:

Oregongrown
Nov 2nd 2013, 12:25 AM
Just because we desire the power that God has does not mean that all are GIVEN the power. I think it speaks more towards man wanting to be God than it does anything else.

I agree with you again, I've said this off and on over the years and it seems to me the only thing that keeps man/woman apart from God is ego. I see pride is probably better to use now since I looked up the definition of ego.

Slug1
Nov 2nd 2013, 02:18 AM
Oh yeah, I can't wait to read more of your stuff:B :lol:When I see that avatar, my mind says, Oww, Oww, Oww, Oww, Oww...!! :lol:

Slug1
Nov 2nd 2013, 02:22 AM
I never said that one cannot do anything about it. I just said that we are not to go about it the way that you say that we should. You say we should engage Satan directly by shouting at him or talking to him and I say that we pray to God and ask HIM to deal with it.Negative... based on the examples in the scriptures, when a demon is to cast out or satan is to be pushed away, you use the authorization God gave us through Jesus and ORDER the demon to leave a person. I posted an example of this too.

Slug1
Nov 2nd 2013, 02:36 AM
WHAT???? I am sorry, WHAT??? I said that what verses support what verses??? I said that the mark 16 verse does seem to support your view, but that it really cannot be used because of the situation regarding it (you have to have others that agree with that passage)...ALL those verses don't support the Mark verse...they seem to indicate that only those appointed cast out demons. Please do not be saying that I am saying things that I am not saying.

Slug, man, I like ya, but I am noticing that you are starting to use some tactics that don't sit well with me. You have been sliding into the soft personal attack realm (where someone says things like, "well, she has to take things out of context because of her views. They don't line up with Scripture and..."), then you are telling people that I am saying things that I am not saying (apparently in order to confuse and sway them to your side of the argument). Slug, don't play this game. These are common tactics used by people who teach false teachings or are totally duped by false teachings and false religions. They are used to confuse the weak. Trust me, I have a lot of experience with this type of game and I can smell it from a mile away! You and I disagree on a NUMBER of doctrines but I never have felt that you with anything but honest, so please don't start using the tactics of the enemy.No tactics... you said that those many scriptures that have been posted support the scripture in Mark 16 that is contested as accurate Word of God.

Here are some of your posts:


It is like I said, we don't have the autographs (the original documents that where penned by the NT writers) so there is a small chance that they might have been in the autographs, dropped, and then put back in. All we know, is that, in the case of Mark 16:9ff it is not in the oldest manuscripts that we have. Since nothing in these particular passages contradicts anything else in scripture it is left in. Now, had there been something that was in direct conflict with known Scripture, they would have been removed.

My question is... if verse 9 is contested, what about the other 2+ dozen scriptures of demons being casted out? Are you saying since this one is contested, ALL the scriptures in the Bible dealing with the casting out of demons mean nothing?

Also this...


Translations are not manuscripts. The Manuscripts are the documents that we get our translations from, they are old, very old, and handwritten. The oldest ones do not have Mark 16:9 and the verses that follow, a good Bible SHOULD be pointing that out to you. The reason why those verses are still left in the text, is because, since we don't have the original "autographs" penned by the NT writers themselves, it IS possible to be wrong, even though all of the evidence that we have says that they are not originally part of the book. There are other passages in the NT that have a similar issue (again, a good Bible should be pointing this out to you in either a footnote or a note within the text). The proper way to deal with such passages is to read it, understand it, but not make any beliefs or doctrine based completely on it. In other words, if something is taught ONLY in Mark 16:17 then we do not make that part of our beliefs or doctrine. It is not a good habit to base a belief on one passage anyway.

Notice the underlined parts, so the proper way to deal with scripture is to ignore scripture if a doctrine is based on one verse. Well... I totally agree. The cessationist doctrine is hinged on ONE scripture but many follow this doctrine and refuse to acknowledge any testimony coming in from the harvest fields of demons being cast out, healings, and people being raised from the dead... these days.

So... here we are, I'm being accused of basing ALL on only the Mark 16 verses. Well, as I stated, even IF those Mark 16 verses were NOT in the Bible, I am not making up a doctrine, all I am doing is supporting what the Bible says with many more verses. Here are some more:

1) Mark 3:14 Then He appointed twelve,[a] that they might be with Him and that He might send them out to preach, 15 and to have power to heal sicknesses and to cast out demons:

2) Mark 6: 12 So they went out and preached that people should repent. 13 And they cast out many demons, and anointed with oil many who were sick, and healed them.

3) Matthew 10:1 And when He had called His twelve disciples to Him, He gave them power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease.

4) Luke 10: 1 After these things the Lord appointed seventy others also,[a] and sent them two by two before His face into every city and place where He Himself was about to go.

5) v17 Then the seventy[e] returned with joy, saying, “Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name.”

6) Luke 13:32 And He said to them, “Go, tell that fox, ‘Behold, I cast out demons and perform cures today and tomorrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.’

7) Mark 16:16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18 they[a] will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”

The Mark 16 scriptures.... there IS NO NEED for them to even be used for a person to understand what Jesus is establishing as a portion of the mission for the Body of Christ.

Do you want me to post even MORE scriptures for you?


Manuscript #1209, Codex Vaticanus (B) does NOT contain Mark 16:9-20.

The Pe****ta is a TRANSLATION, not a manuscript and is not as old as Codex Vaticanus.

EDIT: LOL, now I know why you spelled Pe****ta the way you did, it get blocked as a swear word!

The Bible doesn't need Mark 16:9-20... see all those other verses that show us that the Body of Christ is to go out, cast out demons, heal the sick, raise the dead...etc?

Or are you gonna ignore them all and keep saying... show me more scripture... which I can if you demand it. But, as in this post with many scriptures... what are you gonna do with them all?

Also... are you Catholic to put trust in the Codex Vaticanus? I ask because this text contains many heretical books that are only trusted as historical, not Biblical.

Slug1
Nov 2nd 2013, 02:41 AM
Just because we desire the power that God has does not mean that all are GIVEN the power. I think it speaks more towards man wanting to be God than it does anything else.There is desire to be obedient to God... He said to go out into the world and do what is laid out in the scriptures. First the 12, then the 70, NOW the entire Body of Christ, DESIRE to do what God said to do in obedience. It's not about man, it's all about Jesus.

Slug1
Nov 2nd 2013, 02:43 AM
Now, I could be totally wrong, but it appears that maybe Jesus allowed it because if the person doing the work saw the result then He would become a follower. Here is what the note says in my Bible, "Jesus ordered them not to hinder the exorcist, making the logical point that someone sincerely acting in his name would not soon turn against him. There is no neutral ground regarding Jesus Christ; those who are 'not against' him are on his side, but by the same token, 'whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters' (Matt. 12:30).
I personally still don't think that this one verse is enough evidence to change my mind on the matter and even if it did change how I viewed the people who cast out demons in Biblical times it is not going to change my thought about it not being for today.Are the many I just posted helpful in opening your eyes to what the Bible teaches us? More than only one verse.

Question... in your church, if a demon manifested, who would be stepping up to the demon and utilize their authority in Christ and order it out of the person who has the demon?

Proverbs31Woman
Nov 2nd 2013, 02:45 AM
Negative... based on the examples in the scriptures, when a demon is to cast out or satan is to be pushed away, you use the authorization God gave us through Jesus and ORDER the demon to leave a person. I posted an example of this too.

You still have not shown me where someone other than Jesus, an Apostle or a very close associate (like one of the 7 people the apostles chose) cast demons out.

Slug1
Nov 2nd 2013, 02:54 AM
You still have not shown me where someone other than Jesus, an Apostle or a very close associate (like one of the 7 people the apostles chose) cast demons out.All 70, sent out two-by-two... did.

Proverbs31Woman
Nov 2nd 2013, 02:56 AM
Are the many I just posted helpful in opening your eyes to what the Bible teaches us? More than only one verse.

Question... in your church, if a demon manifested, who would be stepping up to the demon and utilize their authority in Christ and order it out of the person who has the demon?

Sorry I either missed the "many" that you posted or I have not gotten to them yet (I am started to get a bit lost in this thread, LOL)

As for your question, a demon has never manifested at a church that I have been to. Of course, I don't go out of my way to put myself in situations that would lead to such demonic activity.

Slug1
Nov 2nd 2013, 03:01 AM
Sorry I either missed the "many" that you posted or I have not gotten to them yet (I am started to get a bit lost in this thread, LOL)

As for your question, a demon has never manifested at a church that I have been to. Of course, I don't go out of my way to put myself in situations that would lead to such demonic activity.I can understand... there are people in the Body of Christ led/called to deliverance ministry. Due to this, the Holy Spirit leads such called servants to help those who are in bondage/oppression and outright possession, so that they can be freed of the demon(s).

You say you don't believe in this... nor did I, once.

I consolidated the many verses into a recent post, hope you see it... numbered them even.

Proverbs31Woman
Nov 2nd 2013, 03:42 AM
No tactics... you said that those many scriptures that have been posted support the scripture in Mark 16 that is contested as accurate Word of God.

um, no, I don't believe that that is what I said. First off, I don't think that Mark 16:9-20 was originally part of the book. Wait, I think I am starting to see what you are getting at. You are saying that because I said that it does not outright contradict then I am agreeing with your side that all of those other verses are talking about all believers have the authority to cast out demons, right? No. Scripture interprets Scripture and I would still look at that verse in light of everything else in scripture and I would probably still have the same view.


My question is... if verse 9 is contested, what about the other 2+ dozen scriptures of demons being casted out? Are you saying since this one is contested, ALL the scriptures in the Bible dealing with the casting out of demons mean nothing?

umm...no.


So... here we are, I'm being accused of basing ALL on only the Mark 16 verses. Well, as I stated, even IF those Mark 16 verses were NOT in the Bible, I am not making up a doctrine, all I am doing is supporting what the Bible says with many more verses. Here are some more:

1) Mark 3:14 Then He appointed twelve,[a] that they might be with Him and that He might send them out to preach, 15 and to have power to heal sicknesses and to cast out demons:

2) Mark 6: 12 So they went out and preached that people should repent. 13 And they cast out many demons, and anointed with oil many who were sick, and healed them.

3) Matthew 10:1 And when He had called His twelve disciples to Him, He gave them power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease.

4) Luke 10: 1 After these things the Lord appointed seventy others also,[a] and sent them two by two before His face into every city and place where He Himself was about to go.

5) v17 Then the seventy[e] returned with joy, saying, “Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name.”

6) Luke 13:32 And He said to them, “Go, tell that fox, ‘Behold, I cast out demons and perform cures today and tomorrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.’

7) Mark 16:16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18 they[a] will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”

Mark 3:14: this is again Jesus appointing the Apostles to "send them [the apostles] out to preach and have authority to cast out demons". The 12 were appointed to this, not all of the disciples.
Mark 6:12: Again, this is talking about the 12 Apostles. Verse 7 of the same chapter says, "And he called the twelve and began to send them out two by two, and gave them [the twelve] authority over the unclean spirits."
Matthew 10:1: Once again, it is about the 12 apostles.
Luke 10:1: Jesus is appointing 72 additional. Again, this is a select group, not the entire group. And again, verse 17 is about the 72 that Jesus selected.
Luke 13:32 is about Jesus. Jesus is God and has the authority to cast out demons because of His very nature.
Mark 16:16,17: one verse.

I understand that you are trying to say that there is a pattern, but then where is Luke casting out demons? Where are Lydia, Timothy, etc, casting out demons? Why is not every believer in the NT casting out demons? Why is it only Jesus and "appointed" groups? And, I realize that I must clarify slightly, by "casting out demons" I mean by speaking directly to them (Satan, the demons) and ordering them around. I do not mean "casting out demons" as in praying over someone and asking God to cleans the person (which I take no issue with).


Also... are you Catholic to put trust in the Codex Vaticanus? I ask because this text contains many heretical books that are only trusted as historical, not Biblical.

NO, I am not Catholic! The last board that I posted on was a catholic and protestant debate board and the catholics on that board, for the most part, HATED me! The Septuagint (which Jesus read) is said to have contained the Apocryphal books as well, I don't recall if that is true or not, maybe you do.

divaD
Nov 2nd 2013, 04:40 AM
um, no, I don't believe that that is what I said. First off, I don't think that Mark 16:9-20 was originally part of the book. Wait, I think I am starting to see what you are getting at. You are saying that because I said that it does not outright contradict then I am agreeing with your side that all of those other verses are talking about all believers have the authority to cast out demons, right? No. Scripture interprets Scripture and I would still look at that verse in light of everything else in scripture and I would probably still have the same view.



umm...no.



Mark 3:14: this is again Jesus appointing the Apostles to "send them [the apostles] out to preach and have authority to cast out demons". The 12 were appointed to this, not all of the disciples.
Mark 6:12: Again, this is talking about the 12 Apostles. Verse 7 of the same chapter says, "And he called the twelve and began to send them out two by two, and gave them [the twelve] authority over the unclean spirits."
Matthew 10:1: Once again, it is about the 12 apostles.
Luke 10:1: Jesus is appointing 72 additional. Again, this is a select group, not the entire group. And again, verse 17 is about the 72 that Jesus selected.
Luke 13:32 is about Jesus. Jesus is God and has the authority to cast out demons because of His very nature.
Mark 16:16,17: one verse.

I understand that you are trying to say that there is a pattern, but then where is Luke casting out demons? Where are Lydia, Timothy, etc, casting out demons? Why is not every believer in the NT casting out demons? Why is it only Jesus and "appointed" groups? And, I realize that I must clarify slightly, by "casting out demons" I mean by speaking directly to them (Satan, the demons) and ordering them around. I do not mean "casting out demons" as in praying over someone and asking God to cleans the person (which I take no issue with).



NO, I am not Catholic! The last board that I posted on was a catholic and protestant debate board and the catholics on that board, for the most part, HATED me! The Septuagint (which Jesus read) is said to have contained the Apocryphal books as well, I don't recall if that is true or not, maybe you do.


Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

This right here proves beyond a shadow of doubt that it is clearly more than those recorded in the Scriptures who cast out devils, otherwise verse 22 would have to be meaning some of them that were recorded casting out devils 2000 years ago. Who else could Jesus be referring to if there were no one else but those recorded that could cast out devils? But it can't be meaning any of them. The Scriptures make it abundantly clear that they all finished the race as victors.
Verse 22 has to fit someone, that's only common sense. But no way am I then saying that if one is casting out demons today, Jesus will then say He never knew them. But some He will say that to, if the tree is evil. Look at the verses in that chapter proceeding this passage. It's all connected to this.

Slug1
Nov 2nd 2013, 11:18 AM
um, no, I don't believe that that is what I said. First off, I don't think that Mark 16:9-20 was originally part of the book. Wait, I think I am starting to see what you are getting at. You are saying that because I said that it does not outright contradict then I am agreeing with your side that all of those other verses are talking about all believers have the authority to cast out demons, right? No. Scripture interprets Scripture and I would still look at that verse in light of everything else in scripture and I would probably still have the same view.



umm...no.



Mark 3:14: this is again Jesus appointing the Apostles to "send them [the apostles] out to preach and have authority to cast out demons". The 12 were appointed to this, not all of the disciples.
Mark 6:12: Again, this is talking about the 12 Apostles. Verse 7 of the same chapter says, "And he called the twelve and began to send them out two by two, and gave them [the twelve] authority over the unclean spirits."
Matthew 10:1: Once again, it is about the 12 apostles.
Luke 10:1: Jesus is appointing 72 additional. Again, this is a select group, not the entire group. And again, verse 17 is about the 72 that Jesus selected.
Luke 13:32 is about Jesus. Jesus is God and has the authority to cast out demons because of His very nature.
Mark 16:16,17: one verse.

I understand that you are trying to say that there is a pattern, but then where is Luke casting out demons? Where are Lydia, Timothy, etc, casting out demons? Why is not every believer in the NT casting out demons? Why is it only Jesus and "appointed" groups? And, I realize that I must clarify slightly, by "casting out demons" I mean by speaking directly to them (Satan, the demons) and ordering them around. I do not mean "casting out demons" as in praying over someone and asking God to cleans the person (which I take no issue with).



NO, I am not Catholic! The last board that I posted on was a catholic and protestant debate board and the catholics on that board, for the most part, HATED me! The Septuagint (which Jesus read) is said to have contained the Apocryphal books as well, I don't recall if that is true or not, maybe you do.In reading all this I see the problem... it is not that ALL believers DO cast out demons. The Bible is showing us that all believers CAN cast out demons. Some may never, but that does not mean they can't if they found themselves in a situation where there is a need to cast a demon out of a person.

In a past post you said casting out demons is not for today but only for specific people ONLY during a specific time. In this post, you say you have no problem with this... so, this is a problem too.


What do you think, since all of the verses where a human is rebuking Satan or casting out demons are talking about the work of those directly commissioned by Jesus, or 2 that were commissioned by the apostles to help in their work. All of the verses were specially appointed people for a special time.


Look at who is speaking in Scripture, "in the name of the Lord..." who is casting out demons and rebuking Satan? It is Jesus, it is the Apostles (specially appointed by Jesus), it was the 72 (again, specially appointed by Jesus) and we have 2 of the 7 that were specially appointed by the apostles to assist them in their work (although, I think it is safe to infer that all 7 were doing the same miraculous works although scripture does not say). ALL, of the examples of scripture where special miracles were preformed in the NT were done by those groups of people, those who were specifically chosen and appointed. That, my friend, is a select few people in a select time period.


Big difference though as Paul was an Apostle. The Apostles were given a certain amount of authority (by Christ Himself) over the spiritual realm in order to confirm the testimony that they were giving. This authority died with the last Apostle (and probably ended even before that).

It is not a matter of what I think, it is a matter of what Scripture says and Scripture says that we are not to pronounce judgments (or order, or command) beings that have power that we don't understand. Remember the Seven sons of Sceva? They tried to cast out demons that they had no business casting out and what happened, the demons looked at them and said, "Jesus I know, and I have heard of Paul, but who are you?". They ended up getting their butts kicked.


For what reason do you need to heal people, raise them from the dead, and cast out demons? Those miracles were for the sole purpose of giving evidence of the truth of what the Apostles were saying. When the Church was in it's infancy it was necessary, it is not necessary any more.

There are more, but I have to go to class.


Does that help show you where the problem(s) are at?

Redeemed by Grace
Nov 3rd 2013, 02:51 AM
I understand that there will be no sin during that period until satan is once again released and then, the deceiving begins again.

If sin is in the heart as you say based on a few scriptures, yet during that period of time there is not sin... why?

Is it because the sin is the result of the decieving and temptations of satan as the Bible teaches?

What if your understandings were wrong? Will there not be folks who survive the end times? If Christians join Christ in His second coming, and Israel sees Him now for who they Pierced and believe, will there not also be other folks now still alive and have survived who will enter the millenial kingdom? Will there not still be births on earth? Will there not still be death, although not at 70-80 years of age, but now longer?

Now I have concerns if you don't think sin eminates from the heart, for James is quite clear that it does.

And I say and have shown you that the bible declares that sin is within the heart, so I'm just the postman, delivering the gospel to anyone who would hear.

Redeemed by Grace
Nov 3rd 2013, 02:54 AM
What we are told to do, PRAY!

Amen !

Slug1
Nov 3rd 2013, 04:12 AM
What if your understandings were wrong? Will there not be folks who survive the end times? If Christians join Christ in His second coming, and Israel sees Him now for who they Pierced and believe, will there not also be other folks now still alive and have survived who will enter the millenial kingdom? Will there not still be births on earth? Will there not still be death, although not at 70-80 years of age, but now longer?

Sure, but the Bible says that after the devil is bound, then the nations will not be deceived...

Rev 20:3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.

What does it mean to you concerning that we are not deceived any more?


Now I have concerns if you don't think sin eminates from the heart, for James is quite clear that it does. You referring to the James 1:12-15 verses?


And I say and have shown you that the bible declares that sin is within the heart, so I'm just the postman, delivering the gospel to anyone who would hear.The way I look at your delivering is that you are not willing to balance all the scriptures you posted with those I've posted. Yes sin lies in the flesh (heart) and the flesh is weak buy ALLl scripture must be divided and be able to balance with all other scriptures. Temptation leads a person to do sin, sure the sin my lie and even originate within the heart but when we resist the devil and he flees, no more desire to sin is the result. When we are tempted and we take the escape that God has provided, then there is no desire to sin once that escape is taken.

So... when there is not more temptation, what happens to that sin? No more need to resist the devil, he's all bound up... thus no desire to sin. No more need to take the escape because there is no desire to sin.

See, what I mean... you are not taking the context of all the scriptures into account.

Slug1
Nov 3rd 2013, 04:15 AM
Amen !When a demon in a person manifests, what do you pray while it's manifesting in front of you?

divaD
Nov 3rd 2013, 02:31 PM
When a demon in a person manifests, what do you pray while it's manifesting in front of you?


Speaking in general, wouldn't that be a tough question to answer if one has never experienced any such thing to begin with? Not everyone encounters demons manifesting in front of them. I know I never have. I would think something like that is very rare, a demon manifesting through a person in front of you, but not that demons aren't possessing folks these days then.

Here's a question that comes to mind, the fact you have experience casting out demons apparently. Where do you cast them to? Any place in particular? The reason that question comes to mind is because of that time when Jesus cast them into a herd of swine. I'm just trying to figure out the logic in the situation if one were in a church and cast demons out of somebody, without commanding them where to go, since it could easily find someone else in the room to possess if it's still in the vicinity. And when I think of things like that, I think I will just be content and try not to put myself in a situation like that to begin with, nor be anywhere where these demons are manifesting like that. One thing is for certain, I wouldn't want to be a part of a church where things like this might be common, demons manifesting themselves through people right before your eyes. And while I'm thinking about it, since I'm trying to gain more understanding about this, why do these things only tend to happen in certain kind of churches, and not all kinds of churches instead? It's almost as if some churches are like a magnet for demons, while other churches, not so much so.

And one more thing while it's on my mind. When you cast out demons from a person, how is that person afterwards? Are they pretty much different acting than they were before the demon was cast out? Before the demon ever manifested itself, did you already discern they were possessed with a demon? What if they had been going to your church for 6 months, and it wasn't until the 6th month the demon manifests itself? What about the preceding months, did this person ever give you cause to discern they might be possessed?

Proverbs 3:5-7
Nov 3rd 2013, 07:19 PM
As I mentioned, these that were casting out demons in the name of Jesus, were not of the followers of Christ, right? Unless I read it wrong.


you're right; it seems they did not follow along with the regular group of Christ's Disciples :hmm: & there's no mention of them being appointed "special authority" to even be doing it...
yet they were still casting out demons in The Name of Jesus ... & Christ said "do not forbid them"...

seems to me :hmm: that even though they weren't part of the close knit group of Christ's Disciples (that personally followed Him every day)... they still must have really believed in God's Power; to be doing that, you know?

Proverbs 3:5-7
Nov 3rd 2013, 07:27 PM
Manuscript #1209, Codex Vaticanus (B) does NOT contain Mark 16:9-20.



YES IT DOES... I KNOW IT DOES; because I own a Greek Diaglott, given to me by my Mother years ago

Proverbs 3:5-7
Nov 3rd 2013, 07:47 PM
I am pretty sure I can recognize zeal for God over pride, although if I'm wrong, God certainly points it out to me. Who can stand against us? He Who is in us is stronger than he who is in the world. I think some confusion comes when the "natural man/woman" is trying to run the show, rather than allowing the Holy Spirit to direct us.



zeal for God upholds the Integrity of HIS Word over & above ANY opinion... & God's Holy Spirit would never motivate anyone to contradict OR deny anything in God's Word either

carnal pride projects their OWN bias & opinion over & above the Authority of God's Word... & it actually grieves the Holy Spirit; when confusion is caused by carnal contradictions & denials of the WHOLE Truth

Proverbs 3:5-7
Nov 3rd 2013, 07:59 PM
The Pe****ta is a TRANSLATION, not a manuscript



The Aramaic of the Pes h i t ta IS THE Ancient Eastern TEXT (manuscript)

5th to 7th century A.D.

the TRANSLATOR (into English) was George M. Lamsa

Oregongrown
Nov 3rd 2013, 08:11 PM
The Aramaic of the Pes h i t ta IS THE Ancient Eastern TEXT (manuscript)

5th to 7th century A.D.

the TRANSLATOR (into English) was George M. Lamsa


It's not the original manuscript, but it supposedly contains the text of the original manuscripts, that's how I see it, I may be wrong, as with anything I say that isn't scripture;) and your comment seems to contradict itself when you wrote the translator (goes with translation) was George? Maybe just misunderstanding here;)

Proverbs 3:5-7
Nov 3rd 2013, 08:14 PM
Okay, maybe I am overanalyzing this but are you trying to insinuate that I am denying and contradicting Scripture (and that is why you are fighting for the last word?), and that I am projecting my own biased opinion over the Bible (BTW, my own "biased opinion comes from my reading and studying scripture thank you very much), that I am tearing down the integrity and authority of God's Word, and that you are a loyal believer who has zeal for God and I have carnal pride (apparently I am not a loyal believer and I am not zealous for God)...seriously, is that what you are insinuating?


12 For we dare not class ourselves or compare ourselves with those who commend themselves. But they, measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise.

17 But “he who glories, let him glory in the Lord.”

18 For not he who commends himself is approved, but whom the Lord commends.
2 Corinthians 10 {NKJV}

Oregongrown
Nov 3rd 2013, 08:18 PM
zeal for God upholds the Integrity of HIS Word over & above ANY opinion... & God's Holy Spirit would never motivate anyone to contradict OR deny anything in God's Word either

carnal pride projects their OWN bias & opinion over & above the Authority of God's Word... & it actually grieves the Holy Spirit; when confusion is caused by carnal contradictions & denials of the WHOLE Truth

thing is, many people think they are getting it straight from God/HS, but they can't all be because it differs, the interpretations, how people see doctrine. Someone is right on, someone is not. I don't expect people to admit when they are wrong, I admit I don't know if I am wrong at times or not. That is what I look for in people discussing the Word, are the proud and arrogant about what they believe, or are they meek and humble.

Oregongrown
Nov 3rd 2013, 08:21 PM
12 For we dare not class ourselves or compare ourselves with those who commend themselves. But they, measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise.

17 But “he who glories, let him glory in the Lord.”

18 For not he who commends himself is approved, but whom the Lord commends.
2 Corinthians 10 {NKJV}

You know what I have found, is that much of what I post, I am the one that needs to apply it to my own life. God does have such a great sense of humor;)

Proverbs 3:5-7
Nov 3rd 2013, 08:24 PM
what part of "I'm searching on my own" did you not get?



:confused what part of "WHOSOEVER BELIEVETH" did you not get? :confused