PDA

View Full Version : I could use some help finding some references.....



jayne
Oct 31st 2013, 12:50 PM
I have a King James Only gentleman in my Sunday School class who is the most strict KJO Christian I've ever known. He's like a pitbull with certain topics and just won't let it go, always trying to interject it into the lesson.

I have compassion on this man because he was in a car wreck as a young man and it left him with serious brain damage. He's confined to a wheelchair and his speech, handwriting, and logical thinking is severally affected.

A few weeks ago, he tried to tell us that Jesus was 12 years old when he cleared the Temple and that when the people talked about Him doing that that they were remembering what He did as a child. To gently correct this man only ires him. To smile and ignore him only convinces him that he is right.

I love him very much as my brother in the Lord and he spent many years wheeling his wheelchair to the local grocery store passing out tracts to people and telling them about Jesus.

Here's what I need help with. He says that he trusts me alot and whenever he has questions, he wants to know what I think. When it comes to KJO, he'll ask, but doesn't always heed, because it's very difficult to reason with him.

He has asked about "on" versus "in". He believes that the Bible should say "believe ON Jesus" and that bibles that say "believe IN Jesus" are in error. I've looked up "on" in the Greek and it - in part - means "into". This means to me that it's the same word.

He has this long elaborate explanation that I think he is getting from some KJO website and when I try to Google it, "on and "in" are too small of words to google.

Does anyone have any background knowledge of the "on" versus "in" KJO controversy that I could look at?

Walls
Oct 31st 2013, 01:30 PM
I have a King James Only gentleman in my Sunday School class who is the most strict KJO Christian I've ever known. He's like a pitbull with certain topics and just won't let it go, always trying to interject it into the lesson.

I have compassion on this man because he was in a car wreck as a young man and it left him with serious brain damage. He's confined to a wheelchair and his speech, handwriting, and logical thinking is severally affected.

A few weeks ago, he tried to tell us that Jesus was 12 years old when he cleared the Temple and that when the people talked about Him doing that that they were remembering what He did as a child. To gently correct this man only ires him. To smile and ignore him only convinces him that he is right.

I love him very much as my brother in the Lord and he spent many years wheeling his wheelchair to the local grocery store passing out tracts to people and telling them about Jesus.

Here's what I need help with. He says that he trusts me alot and whenever he has questions, he wants to know what I think. When it comes to KJO, he'll ask, but doesn't always heed, because it's very difficult to reason with him.

He has asked about "on" versus "in". He believes that the Bible should say "believe ON Jesus" and that bibles that say "believe IN Jesus" are in error. I've looked up "on" in the Greek and it - in part - means "into". This means to me that it's the same word.

He has this long elaborate explanation that I think he is getting from some KJO website and when I try to Google it, "on and "in" are too small of words to google.

Does anyone have any background knowledge of the "on" versus "in" KJO controversy that I could look at?

I believe "INTO" is most correct. I can only refer you to the Greek language authorities. One can also use "among" as a rendering. But if a man is set on one thing you will have a hard time changing his idea, especially if some capabilities have been impaired. On the other hand, if the rendering he holds does no great damage to the overall concept, let him live with it. Its like Christians believing that they are going to heaven. As long as they love The Lord and live holy, given lives, they are ok. It is when the wrong doctrine leads to a deficiency that we must stand our ground. Remember Ephesians Chapter 4. There are two unities spoken of; the unity that the Holy Spirit has created and which we must strive to keep in the bond of peace, and there is the unity of what we believe later in the Chapter, which will only come after years of sound application of the gifted ones in the Church.

I myself am great fan of the KJV for its accuracy and wealth of reference works, but it has some shortcomings. Maybe if you point one or two of these out to him gently, you can urge him to study other renderings for his overall education. One glaring one is the use of "Easter" in Acts 12:4. Easter is a Pagan Feast to the fertility goddess Ishtar and is notable for its sex orgies with all and sundry. The Rabbit is symbolic of it because it breeds so fast. It occurs on the first Sunday after the first full moon after the Spring equinox (northern hemisphere). The Passover, as it is correctly rendered in other versions, occurs within a small band of the Jewish calendar, every year on the same date.

jayne
Oct 31st 2013, 02:04 PM
Thank, Walls. I have learned not to try to convince him, just to gently answer his questions. He truly believes, because he has told me, that it is God's will for him to make as many people as possible understand what he knows about the King James Bible being the only one to read. I would never argue with him. And I don't even like answering his questions, but I felt I should ask if anyone had heard of the "on" versus "in" deal.

Walls
Oct 31st 2013, 02:33 PM
Thank, Walls. I have learned not to try to convince him, just to gently answer his questions. He truly believes, because he has told me, that it is God's will for him to make as many people as possible understand what he knows about the King James Bible being the only one to read. I would never argue with him. And I don't even like answering his questions, but I felt I should ask if anyone had heard of the "on" versus "in" deal.

I always go with "into" as, besides the Greek, this is the revelation of scripture. If Adam had eaten of the Tree of Life God would have got "into" him. The gospel of John reveals that God will "make His abode with us and "in" us, and goes further to say that He will be in us and us "IN" Him. Added to this, while it is fully correct to say "believe in", that gives the sense of something abstract, whereas to believe "INTO" gives the sense of a relationship, intimacy and "oneness". I think scripture wanted to convey this. Believing "INTO" Jesus conveys the idea that you make yourself fully at one with His Person, Character, Work and Office. Scripture says that we "put Christ ON" (Gal.3:27), that is, we are "IN" Him like you put yourself "INTO" your clothes this morning.

bunnymuldare
Oct 31st 2013, 07:22 PM
Hi Jayne,

I don't think he wants to be convinced otherwise. Maybe, since he is impaired now, he just wants to have something special to say.
Maybe you could find him a better topic, like grace vs. works. He doesn't have to completely understand it as long as he can take a stand and stick with it. I'm assuming you preach grace over works. Anytime somebody says works he'll jump to something like, "Jesus saves by grace. That's it. That's all." You can work out the details later.

I had a job working with the mentally retarded. It can be trying but ya gotta love em.

God bless you.

PS Is it On earth as it is in heaven?
Or is it In earth as it is in heaven? :D

chad
Oct 31st 2013, 07:32 PM
Maybe you could suggest that he write a book with all his ideas and theories...That way anyone interested could read it. He might enjoy writing a book and it would give him something to do.



I have a King James Only gentleman in my Sunday School class who is the most strict KJO Christian I've ever known. He's like a pitbull with certain topics and just won't let it go, always trying to interject it into the lesson.

I have compassion on this man because he was in a car wreck as a young man and it left him with serious brain damage. He's confined to a wheelchair and his speech, handwriting, and logical thinking is severally affected.

A few weeks ago, he tried to tell us that Jesus was 12 years old when he cleared the Temple and that when the people talked about Him doing that that they were remembering what He did as a child. To gently correct this man only ires him. To smile and ignore him only convinces him that he is right.

I love him very much as my brother in the Lord and he spent many years wheeling his wheelchair to the local grocery store passing out tracts to people and telling them about Jesus.

Here's what I need help with. He says that he trusts me alot and whenever he has questions, he wants to know what I think. When it comes to KJO, he'll ask, but doesn't always heed, because it's very difficult to reason with him.

He has asked about "on" versus "in". He believes that the Bible should say "believe ON Jesus" and that bibles that say "believe IN Jesus" are in error. I've looked up "on" in the Greek and it - in part - means "into". This means to me that it's the same word.

He has this long elaborate explanation that I think he is getting from some KJO website and when I try to Google it, "on and "in" are too small of words to google.

Does anyone have any background knowledge of the "on" versus "in" KJO controversy that I could look at?

TBM 11
Oct 31st 2013, 07:57 PM
Maybe you could suggest that he write a book with all his ideas and theories...That way anyone interested could read it. He might enjoy writing a book and it would give him something to do.

Very good idea Chad. Jayne, he probably isn't involved with this guys teachings, but you might want to gently check and see. I believe him to be a false teacher and he is very big on KJV Cambridge edition.

http://www.thescripturesalonebibleschool.net/all-authority.html

bunnymuldare
Oct 31st 2013, 08:07 PM
Chad,
You want a man that is severely brain damaged to write a book?

WHAT?????????????

quiet dove
Nov 2nd 2013, 07:08 PM
I have a King James Only gentleman in my Sunday School class who is the most strict KJO Christian I've ever known. He's like a pitbull with certain topics and just won't let it go, always trying to interject it into the lesson.

I have compassion on this man because he was in a car wreck as a young man and it left him with serious brain damage. He's confined to a wheelchair and his speech, handwriting, and logical thinking is severally affected.

A few weeks ago, he tried to tell us that Jesus was 12 years old when he cleared the Temple and that when the people talked about Him doing that that they were remembering what He did as a child. To gently correct this man only ires him. To smile and ignore him only convinces him that he is right.

I love him very much as my brother in the Lord and he spent many years wheeling his wheelchair to the local grocery store passing out tracts to people and telling them about Jesus.

Here's what I need help with. He says that he trusts me alot and whenever he has questions, he wants to know what I think. When it comes to KJO, he'll ask, but doesn't always heed, because it's very difficult to reason with him.

He has asked about "on" versus "in". He believes that the Bible should say "believe ON Jesus" and that bibles that say "believe IN Jesus" are in error. I've looked up "on" in the Greek and it - in part - means "into". This means to me that it's the same word.

He has this long elaborate explanation that I think he is getting from some KJO website and when I try to Google it, "on and "in" are too small of words to google.

Does anyone have any background knowledge of the "on" versus "in" KJO controversy that I could look at?

This isn't an answer to your question here, but just a thought that came. When communicating with him, just remember the Lord knows his illness and is compassionate, and the Spirit does not need his body, or even his brain to communicate with him. The Spirit speaks to our spirit. Prayer on your part for both of you and let the Lord work though it may seem to you the words coming out of your mouth are not getting anywhere. Speak and let it go. Let the Lord speak and let the Lord handle it. This man being engaged in study and conversation is probably his strength in life, be sure any "correction" given only serves to encourage him in the Lord and thus he will be strengthened in the Lord, even if he continues to disagree with you.

Hope that made some kind of sense. I mean, your biggest concern, IMHO, is that he stay engaged in study and strengthened in the Lord. He is fighting a lot in this life. I'm sure you are already doing that.

May the Lord put His blessing upon you efforts and the both of you.

:hug: :2cents:

jayne
Nov 2nd 2013, 07:37 PM
This isn't an answer to your question here, but just a thought that came. When communicating with him, just remember the Lord knows his illness and is compassionate, and the Spirit does not need his body, or even his brain to communicate with him. The Spirit speaks to our spirit. Prayer on your part for both of you and let the Lord work though it may seem to you the words coming out of your mouth are not getting anywhere. Speak and let it go. Let the Lord speak and let the Lord handle it. This man being engaged in study and conversation is probably his strength in life, be sure any "correction" given only serves to encourage him in the Lord and thus he will be strengthened in the Lord, even if he continues to disagree with you.

Hope that made some kind of sense. I mean, your biggest concern, IMHO, is that he stay engaged in study and strengthened in the Lord. He is fighting a lot in this life. I'm sure you are already doing that.

May the Lord put His blessing upon you efforts and the both of you.

:hug: :2cents:

Thank you so much for the wise words.

Boo
Nov 3rd 2013, 12:06 PM
Thank, Walls. I have learned not to try to convince him, just to gently answer his questions. He truly believes, because he has told me, that it is God's will for him to make as many people as possible understand what he knows about the King James Bible being the only one to read. I would never argue with him. And I don't even like answering his questions, but I felt I should ask if anyone had heard of the "on" versus "in" deal.

I would guess that there will be no answer that can reach him. His mind is set.

However, out of curiosity, I will present this:

in =
PREP εν, εις, σε, εντός, μέσα

on=
PREP επί, επάνω, εις, προς, κατά, εμπρός

upon=
PREP επάνω σε, εις

Note that all three of these words have common Greek spelling. The translation is left to the mind of the translator in which English word to use.

Acts 16:31
16:31 3588-1161οι δε And they 2036 είπον said, 4100 πίστευσον Believe 1909 επί upon 3588 τον the 2962 κύριον Lord *Ιησούν Jesus 5547 χριστόν Christ, 2532 και and 4982 σωθήση you shall be delivered, 1473 συ you 2532 και and 3588ο 3624-1473 οίκός σου your house.

The King James translators chose to use the word "on" 196 times but chose to use the word "in" 120 times. However, they chose "upon" 159 times. The Strong's Concordance has this to say:


Greek Strong's Number: 1909
Greek Word: ἐπί
Transliteration: epi
Phonetic Pronunciation:ep-ee'

Usage Notes:

English Words used in KJV:
on 196
in 120
upon 159
unto 41
to 41
miscellaneous translations 339
[Total Count: 896]

a primary preposition properly meaning superimposition (of time, place, order, etc.), as a relation of distribution [with the genitive], i.e. over, upon, etc.; of rest (with the dative) at, on, etc.; of direction (with the accusative) towards, upon, etc. :- about (the times), above, after, against, among, as long as (touching), at, beside, × have charge of, (be-, [where-]) fore, in (a place, as much as, the time of, -to), (because) of, (up-) on (behalf of), over, (by, for) the space of, through (-out), (un-) to (-ward), with. In compounds it retains essentially the same import, at, upon, etc. (literal or figurative).

The choice of "on" or "in" is a meaningless issue that serves only to give reason to argue.

New International Version
They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved--you and your household."

New Living Translation
They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved, along with everyone in your household."

English Standard Version
And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

New American Standard Bible
They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

King James Bible
And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
So they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved--you and your household."

International Standard Version
They answered, "Believe on the Lord Jesus, and you and your family will be saved."

NET Bible
They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved, you and your household."

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And they said to him, “Trust in our Lord Yeshua The Messiah, and you shall live, you and your household.”

GOD'S WORD® Translation
They answered, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you and your family will be saved."

Jubilee Bible 2000
And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

King James 2000 Bible
And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved, and your house.

American King James Version
And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved, and your house.

American Standard Version
And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus, and thou shalt be saved, thou and thy house.

Douay-Rheims Bible
But they said: Believe in the Lord Jesus, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Darby Bible Translation
And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus and thou shalt be saved, thou and thy house.

English Revised Version
And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus, and thou shalt be saved, thou and thy house.

Webster's Bible Translation
And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Weymouth New Testament
"Believe on the Lord Jesus," they replied, "and both you and your household will be saved."

World English Bible
They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Young's Literal Translation
and they said, 'Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved -- thou and thy house;'

Eyelog
Nov 3rd 2013, 12:49 PM
He has asked about "on" versus "in". He believes that the Bible should say "believe ON Jesus" and that bibles that say "believe IN Jesus" are in error. I've looked up "on" in the Greek and it - in part - means "into".

Ask him if you should stop acknowledging he is "into" the kjv and start saying he is "on" it.

jayne
Nov 3rd 2013, 01:17 PM
I would guess that there will be no answer that can reach him. His mind is set.

However, out of curiosity, I will present this:.....................

Thanks, this is helpful to me.

moonglow
Nov 8th 2013, 03:57 AM
jayne I realize I am a little late on here and possibly you have already talked to him about this. I have worked with two brain damaged clients in the past. They were both in terrible car accidents as teenagers. When a person suffers this kind of damage they stay forever at the age they were at when they were injured...no matter how old their bodies may grown. These two were physically adults when I worked with them but acted like extremely immature impulsive teenagers. Plus very emotional all the time. Its kind of like taking a regular teenager and amplifying it a hundred times. :rolleyes: He is lucky in that, that he was adult when the accident happened...hopefully his emotions aren't so impulsive or out of control (temper wise among other things). We also have a young man at our church that suffered brain damage shortly after he started college. It took alot of work and while he will likely never be 100% he was able to eventually take the college classes he wanted...though I think he received alot of help. He also is able to walk too. Brain damage is a complex thing...its worse when the person understands they are brain damaged and so frustrating when they are unable to grasp things they know they should...:( Some upset they show is because of that..its frustration. Its a very hard thing to live with that is for sure. Its very good he says he trusts you! Very good!

On your question:


He has asked about "on" versus "in". He believes that the Bible should say "believe ON Jesus" and that bibles that say "believe IN Jesus" are in error. I've looked up "on" in the Greek and it - in part - means "into". This means to me that it's the same word.

I know its been addressed but personally I don't see any difference..the meaning is the same. That is what I would tell him anyway. That is just my opinion...without looking up a bunch of stuff...:lol: When you give him gentle corrections on anything please just realize him getting upset may be simply that he 'cannot' break out of what he was taught before the accident...and while some things have gotten 'mixed up' in his mind...its a real struggle for him to see that and truly understand it. I have dyslexia and while its not caused by brain damage...(people with this generally have normal to above normal IQ's) PET scans show the brain is different then in those that don't. I struggle mighty with some thing. When I was a child (my parents didn't know I had this)..and all the kids sat with their parents during church services which were on adult levels so I didn't understand alot...what I did understand I tended to take very literally.

For instance I thought there was a tiny little Jesus that really lived in our hearts. (I was pretty young of course). I was very happy with that idea...until the pastor one day read a bible verse where a lady hit a man in the temple and he died! :eek: So I asked my parents after church where this temple was (I had thought our temple was what Jesus lived in, in our hearts). So dad said on the side of our heads and showed me. So I walked around the rest of the day holding my hand over my temple in case it got hit and the temple would break doing who knows what to Jesus and I would die.

Anyway, obviously I outgrew that idea, but I tended to take things very literally in the bible. When I first came here I realized I had alot to unlearn...very hard to do. And while I have struggled terribly with other things like math..blah...and spelling...more blah...The Good Lord gifted me with an understanding of His Word (finally! :pp) after I was saved. The ONLY time I feel intelligent is when discussing scripture. I image this guy is trying to hang on with what knowledge he had before the accident and like I said may feel frustration when he realizes he got some things mixed up. That must be frightening for him too...not too mention feeling stupid. (sorry if that sound crude or blunt but that is how I feel many times! So I can only image how he must be feeling too).

I had to memorize certain bible passages as a child in KJV before I could get baptize. For me those bible passages simply do not sound right in any other version. I taught my son the Lord's prayer in Old English. :) Sweet memories. (though I have a horrible memory and it was very hard for me to learn those..but once I did, they stuck!)

My point is because of his brain damage he cannot let go of the KJV...I wouldn't even try to go there with him on that and I know you aren't. Maybe a long, long time down the road he might accept the New King James Version...at least on a few scriptures...help him (if you have a chance) to tell you his favorite bible verses. Help him remember them. Its important.

God bless