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Slug1
Oct 31st 2013, 10:32 PM
In the Bible we read that Jesus is being baptized by John the Baptist, the Holy Spirit descends on Jesus in the form of a dove and the Father speaks from heaven. Matthew 3:16-17 Three parts of God, all happening at the same time.

In John 14:16... we have Jesus, praying to the Father that He will give the comforter to the Body of Christ... also three representing God.

In Romans 1:7, Hebrews 1:8 and Acts 5:3-4... Father who is God, Son who is God, and Holy Spirit who is God.

Also, this one I'll post:

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.

Now... I've heard it said that the Bible does not clearly teach the doctrine of the Trinity :confused

Why do some say this?

cindyt
Oct 31st 2013, 10:34 PM
In the Bible we read that Jesus is being baptized by John the Baptist, the Holy Spirit descends on Jesus in the form of a dove and the Father speaks from heaven. Matthew 3:16-17 Three parts of God, all happening at the same time.

In John 14:16... we have Jesus, praying to the Father that He will give the comforter to the Body of Christ... also three representing God.

In Romans 1:7, Hebrews 1:8 and Acts 5:3-4... Father who is God, Son who is God, and Holy Spirit who is God.

Also, this one I'll post:

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.

Now... I've heard it said that the Bible does not clearly teach the doctrine of the Trinity :confused

Why do some say this? It certainly is!

TBM 11
Oct 31st 2013, 11:07 PM
I have always believed in the Trinity, so never had looked for it. Good to have in case it comes up sometime. Thanks!

Aviyah
Nov 1st 2013, 12:25 AM
I was about to say because there's nowhere in the Bible that explicitly says it and people like for the Bible to explicitly say something - but I stand corrected! It actually doesn't even take inference!

Oregongrown
Nov 1st 2013, 12:35 AM
the day I read in Genesis where God was creating, and saw it said

Genesis 1;26 26 Then God said, “Let us make humankind in our image, in the likeness of ourselves; and let them rule over the fish in the sea, the birds in the air, the animals, and over all the earth, and over every crawling creature that crawls on the earth.”

This was close to when I got saved in 93, someone was teaching me about the trinity. The verse above blew me away because before that time, I thought of God as 3 persons, but I had never read that in Genesis, or saw it anyway. So then I knew there were at least 2, and later on of course, I read or was taught more about the Holy Spirit.

Now I'm thinking "are we 3 parts then too?" I mean, I think of body, soul, spirit off-hand.

Oregongrown
Nov 1st 2013, 12:43 AM
I was about to say because there's nowhere in the Bible that explicitly says it and people like for the Bible to explicitly say something - but I stand corrected! It actually doesn't even take inference!

Yes, just like rapture, but I did find out just lately that raptures meaning can be "caught up". I wonder what are some definitions of trinity:hmm:

MW definition:
1: the unity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as three persons in one Godhead according to Christian dogma
2: a group of three closely related persons or things
3: the Sunday after Whitsunday observed as a feast in honor of the Trinity
this is the origin, according to merriam webster:

Middle English trinite, from Anglo-French trinité, from Late Latin trinitat-, trinitas state of being threefold, from Latin trinus threefold
First Known Use: 13th century

divaD
Nov 1st 2013, 12:46 AM
In the Bible we read that Jesus is being baptized by John the Baptist, the Holy Spirit descends on Jesus in the form of a dove and the Father speaks from heaven. Matthew 3:16-17 Three parts of God, all happening at the same time.

In John 14:16... we have Jesus, praying to the Father that He will give the comforter to the Body of Christ... also three representing God.

In Romans 1:7, Hebrews 1:8 and Acts 5:3-4... Father who is God, Son who is God, and Holy Spirit who is God.

Also, this one I'll post:

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.

Now... I've heard it said that the Bible does not clearly teach the doctrine of the Trinity :confused

Why do some say this?

I always think of the following for one, when it comes to this subject.

Matthew 17:5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

This clearly shows the Father and Son are not the same person, otherwise the Father would be really saying He is well pleased with Himself, hear ye ME instead of hear ye Him, which then comes out nonsensical to me if true. This is one reason that I always stress sound logic is crucial for trying to understand the meaning of Scriptures. And if the conclusions come out all nonsensical sounding, it could be because the conclusions are not correct. But even when one clearly shows someone how their conclusions make nonsense of the text if true, they still insist they are correct. I guess I will never understand how some folks reason things the way they do at times?

ewq1938
Nov 1st 2013, 01:38 AM
One God composed of three: A Father, a Son, a Holy Spirit. Christians are also three in one: Does not every human have one body, yet within that body have a soul and a spirit? Is that not two in one? And when we have the Holy Spirit in us, is that not three in one?

keck553
Nov 1st 2013, 02:16 AM
In the Bible we read that Jesus is being baptized by John the Baptist, the Holy Spirit descends on Jesus in the form of a dove and the Father speaks from heaven. Matthew 3:16-17 Three parts of God, all happening at the same time.

In John 14:16... we have Jesus, praying to the Father that He will give the comforter to the Body of Christ... also three representing God.

In Romans 1:7, Hebrews 1:8 and Acts 5:3-4... Father who is God, Son who is God, and Holy Spirit who is God.

Also, this one I'll post:

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.

Now... I've heard it said that the Bible does not clearly teach the doctrine of the Trinity :confused

Why do some say this?

The truth is written, but the Holy Spirit reveals.

exitludos
Nov 1st 2013, 02:30 AM
Now... I've heard it said that the Bible does not clearly teach the doctrine of the Trinity :confused

Why do some say this?
Just to make sure, are you actually asking 'why', looking for a real answer...? Or is the question meant to be rhetorical, and you actually expect just agreement? I just want to make sure I am clear on the motivation of the question. Because if you do not actually want to know 'why' people think the bible does not clearly teach the doctrine of the trinity, pay me no mind.



The doctrine of 'trinity' is defined as God being: three persons, each coequal, each coeternal, etc.

None of those verses use 'trinity' vocabulary or concepts. The trinity can only be inferred by the reader in any of these.

That's why people say the trinity is not 'clearly' taught in the bible, because the vocabulary the 'trinity' doctrine relies on is not used in the bible.



The last one, 1 John 5.7, has really bad manuscript history and was most probably not written by the original author of the epistle (though I am sure you know all about that debate already). But even if we accept it as authentic, it is the only verse in the entire bible that uses the number 'three' for God, but it does not say he is 'three persons'... other theological perspectives (such as modalism) can still agree with 1 John 5.7 specifically because of the lack of the trinity-requiring word 'persons'.

Slug1
Nov 1st 2013, 02:43 AM
Just to make sure, are you actually asking 'why', looking for a real answer...? Or is the question meant to be rhetorical, and you actually expect just agreement? I just want to make sure I am clear on the motivation of the question. Because if you do not actually want to know 'why' people think the bible does not clearly teach the doctrine of the trinity, pay me no mind.



The doctrine of 'trinity' is defined as God being: three persons, each coequal, each coeternal, etc.

None of those verses use 'trinity' vocabulary or concepts. The trinity can only be inferred by the reader in any of these.

That's why people say the trinity is not 'clearly' taught in the bible, because the vocabulary the 'trinity' doctrine relies on is not used in the bible.



The last one, 1 John 5.7, has really bad manuscript history and was most probably not written by the original author of the epistle (though I am sure you know all about that debate already). But even if we accept it as authentic, it is the only verse in the entire bible that uses the number 'three' for God, but it does not say he is 'three persons'... other theological perspectives (such as modalism) can still agree with 1 John 5.7 specifically because of the lack of the trinity-requiring word 'persons'.No, I'm serious. I know that people view/read/study the Bible in "the letter of the Word" and some view/read/study the Bible in "the spirit of the Word". I will assume that reading the Bible in the letter of the Word, they would be those who say the Trinity is not defined/revealed/taught in the scriptures?

ewq1938
Nov 1st 2013, 03:14 AM
The doctrine of 'trinity' is defined as God being: three persons, each coequal, each coeternal, etc.

None of those verses use 'trinity' vocabulary or concepts. The trinity can only be inferred by the reader in any of these.

That's why people say the trinity is not 'clearly' taught in the bible, because the vocabulary the 'trinity' doctrine relies on is not used in the bible.



The last one, 1 John 5.7, has really bad manuscript history and was most probably not written by the original author of the epistle (though I am sure you know all about that debate already). But even if we accept it as authentic, it is the only verse in the entire bible that uses the number 'three' for God, but it does not say he is 'three persons'... other theological perspectives (such as modalism) can still agree with 1 John 5.7 specifically because of the lack of the trinity-requiring word 'persons'.

Right. I consider myself a Trinitarian because I believe that God is 3 in 1, but scripture does not state all three are three persons nor coequal. The Trinity for me is simply what is found in the scripture, a Father, a Son, and a Holy Spirit....not the "Holy Person". And since it is written the Father is the head of Christ there is no co-equalness as far as authority.

exitludos
Nov 1st 2013, 03:45 AM
No, I'm serious.
Okay. If you are serious and honest and desperate to compassionately understand people outside of yourself.

Here is why people -- people who love God with their heart and soul and mind and strength, who trust in the Lord Jesus and believe God raised him from the dead, who love other people by the power of the holy spirit, and study the bible in prayer and thanksgiving -- are not convinced any of those verses teach the doctrine of the trinity.



The 'trinity' doctrine relies on specific vocabulary. Just to name a few of the words vital to teaching the trinity: persons, coeternal, coequal, coexistent, three. If none of these words are present in a text, then it is not teaching 'the trinity'.


Matthew 3.16-17 does not say: persons, coeternal, coequal, or three. 'Coexistent' can be understood on the basis that we see Jesus, and the spirit of God, and a voice from heaven simultaneously. But this text does not identify the spirit of God as a 'person' apart from the Father (the one speaking from heaven). When we read about the spirit of Elijah coming onto Elisha (2 Kings 2.9,15) or John (Luke 1.17), we do not think this spirit of Elijah was a 'person'. It is a figure of speech, an idiom. Without first assuming the spirit of God is a 'person', and without first assuming Jesus and the holy spirit are 'coeternal' and 'coequal' with the Father, we cannot find any of this taught in the text. This is not a matter of being 'in the spirit of the word' instead of 'in the letter of the word'. This is a matter of the idea just not being there, period.

John 14.16ff does not say: persons, coeternal, coequal, coexistent, or three. Two chapters later, as a part of the same overall discourse in which he promises to send the holy spirit as an 'advocate', Jesus tells his disciples, 'I have said these things to you in figures of speech'; it becomes glaring that this is the only place in the bible that the holy spirit is portrayed in personal terms, but Jesus then calls it all 'figures of speech'. Because the holy spirit is elsewhere called God's spirit and Jesus' spirit, and Jesus elsewhere is called the advocate, people find it unconvincing to then say the holy spirit -- God's spirit, Jesus' spirit -- is 'person' who is 'coexistent' and 'coeternal' and 'coequal', when none of those words are used.

Romans 1.7 (along with all of Paul's 'grace and peace' greetings, except for Colossians) mentions 'God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ'. At most, this implies that the Lord Jesus Christ should be understood in direct parallel to God our Father. Meaning, it is not a stretch to infer that Jesus is somehow intrinsic to God the Father; that God the Father is not complete without the Lord Jesus Christ, and vice versa. But this verse does not mention the holy spirit, nor any of the trinity-required vocabulary. Claiming this verse teaches the trinity doctrine is just way more than what Paul actually wrote.

Hebrews 1.8 clearly calls Jesus 'God'. But that is a far cry from 'coeternal', 'coequal', or 'three'. The holy spirit is also not mentioned as a separate 'person'. This verse, as it stands, is entirely compatible with modalism, Arianism (not to be confused with unitarianism), and binitarianism.

Acts 5.3-4 is a classic case of Hebrew parallel. In Psalm 8.4, 'man' and 'son of man' are identical; they refer to the exact same person. Likewise, when Peter has 'the holy spirit' and 'God' parallel, they refer to the exact same person: God. Because Luke does not mention multiple 'persons', nor 'three' of anyone, nor coeternal, nor coequal, nor coexistent, we would be overstepping the boundaries of God's word by claiming this teaches the trinity. It just is not there.

1 John 5.7 was not written by the author of the epistle. No one in the ancient Church ever mentions the verse, it is not found in any ancient Greek manuscripts, we know it had a dubious history in the 1500s, and it makes no sense in the contextual flow of 1 John 5. It was an addition centuries after the epistle was originally written, and even if it was original to the text, it does not mention 'persons', nor 'coeternal', nor 'coequal', so it still does not teach the trinity. This verse, as it stands, is entirely compatible with modalism, Arianism, or even Mormonism.



This is why people -- people who love God with their heart and soul and mind and strength, who trust in the Lord Jesus and believe God raised him from the dead, who love other people by the power of the holy spirit, and study the bible in prayer and thanksgiving -- do not believe the trinity doctrine is taught in any of these verses.

ewq1938
Nov 1st 2013, 03:56 AM
do not believe the trinity doctrine is taught in any of these verses.

Re-worded:

"do not believe the ORTHODOX trinity doctrine is taught in any of these verses."

Trinity the word just means 3, and I believe those verses do show God as 3.

exitludos
Nov 1st 2013, 03:58 AM
Thanks, but please let my words speak for themselves, rather than interjecting into them.

ewq1938
Nov 1st 2013, 04:05 AM
Thanks, but please let my words speak for themselves, rather than interjecting into them.

I'm only offering an alternative which I think is more accurate...

We are more or less on the same side you know.....unless you don't believe there are three that are divine/God.

exitludos
Nov 1st 2013, 04:09 AM
I believe we are all on the same side, even if we do not all have the exact same theological perspective. (Notwithstanding any biting and infighting.) We all call on the Lord Jesus for salvation.

I appreciate the offer, sincerely. But I am careful with my words, so I did mean what I wrote exactly how I wrote it.

ewq1938
Nov 1st 2013, 04:12 AM
I believe we are all on the same side, even if we do not all have the exact same theological perspective. (Notwithstanding any biting and infighting.) We all call on the Lord Jesus for salvation.

I appreciate the offer, sincerely. But I am careful with my words, so I did mean what I wrote exactly how I wrote it.

Fair enough. Please consider the "correction" just as it would refer to how I could agree to it. I believe in the Trinity and see it in scripture, but not the "orthodox" definition.

Balabusha
Nov 1st 2013, 04:44 AM
In the Bible we read that Jesus is being baptized by John the Baptist, the Holy Spirit descends on Jesus in the form of a dove and the Father speaks from heaven. Matthew 3:16-17 Three parts of God, all happening at the same time.

In John 14:16... we have Jesus, praying to the Father that He will give the comforter to the Body of Christ... also three representing God.

In Romans 1:7, Hebrews 1:8 and Acts 5:3-4... Father who is God, Son who is God, and Holy Spirit who is God.

Also, this one I'll post:

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.

Now... I've heard it said that the Bible does not clearly teach the doctrine of the Trinity :confused

Why do some say this?

My own experience is that it was not expected that Messiah would be God incarnate from an Old Testament perspective, then there is the passage in Dfeuteronomy 6:4-6 that is tuaght as soon as I was able to sound words-God is One. So this is very hard for a lot of Jews to comprehend without feeling like we are committing idolatry.
Then there are the references Jesus makes that make Him out to be a mere man-this is very hard at first glance, because Jesus does make comments that seem to separate Himself from divinity. These are the verses that JW's use.
How I worked my way thru this is that the sacrifice for sin could only be very temporal and no different than animal sacrifice if it was a created being-the eternal promises and covenant could only be fulfilled by the eternal.
Then I found that Jesus makes reference to both His fleshy state and His Divine state. I found it important viewing trinitarians and arians debating the subject-both had good points, and it pointed to me that the debate was really 2 sides debating the same attributes of God-He is the God-man
I established the Messiah as God, but still had no idea of a Trinity, so for a while I had more of a "Oneness" idea of God. This was OK for a while but still did not harmonize certain things like the Holy Spirit, the distinct roles of each part of God, so slowly I discovered the unity of God within a Trinity.
This is harder than most topics unless a person is born into it. I don't understand it, and if you took a poll at church I bet a person would get many slightly different answers.

Realist1981
Nov 1st 2013, 02:44 PM
exitludos (http://bibleforums.org/member.php/55698-exitludos) -

Just so that I'm on the same page with you are you saying that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one and the same just manifested in different ways?

If that's not what you believe can you please clarify what you believe, thanks.

Slug1
Nov 1st 2013, 02:55 PM
Okay. If you are serious and honest and desperate to compassionately understand people outside of yourself.

Here is why people -- people who love God with their heart and soul and mind and strength, who trust in the Lord Jesus and believe God raised him from the dead, who love other people by the power of the holy spirit, and study the bible in prayer and thanksgiving -- are not convinced any of those verses teach the doctrine of the trinity.



The 'trinity' doctrine relies on specific vocabulary. Just to name a few of the words vital to teaching the trinity: persons, coeternal, coequal, coexistent, three. If none of these words are present in a text, then it is not teaching 'the trinity'.Let me get past this so we're on the same sheet of understanding before I delve into the reply concerning the verses.

Vocabulary?

Here is a situation we find in scripture... when Jesus sent out the 70 and informed them what they are to do, there were no "words" of instruction in HOW to do what He sent them out to do. He gave them guidance, what to bring/not bring/take/not to take, when to stay in a location or walk away and said, do this, this, that, that etc. I can post the verses if you need them.

So when does vocabulary override faith and belief and ultimately obedience, in what the Word of God shows us (in those given scriptures about the Trinity from my OP) but doesn't "say" specific words in any given vocabulary, like the term... trinity?

This is why I raised in my other post about the "letter" and the "spirit" of the Word of God.


This is why people -- people who love God with their heart and soul and mind and strength, who trust in the Lord Jesus and believe God raised him from the dead, who love other people by the power of the holy spirit, and study the bible in prayer and thanksgiving -- do not believe the trinity doctrine is taught in any of these verses.In front of the underlined portion is a HUGE smoke screen hiding what it seems you believe.

Do you believe in the Trinity of God?

So... I still will get to your understanding of all those scripture I posted.

Please, post all the scriptures YOU USE to teach people about the Trinty of God. Then we can knock it all out in one sitting.

Curtis
Nov 1st 2013, 03:07 PM
1Pe 1:2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father by being set apart by the Spirit for obedience and for sprinkling6 with Jesus Christ's blood. May grace and peace be yours in full measure!7

Mat 28:19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

1Th 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Since man is created in the image and after the likeness of God, we can see how that we also are a three in one being.

keck553
Nov 1st 2013, 03:29 PM
In the Bible we read that Jesus is being baptized by John the Baptist, the Holy Spirit descends on Jesus in the form of a dove and the Father speaks from heaven. Matthew 3:16-17 Three parts of God, all happening at the same time.

In John 14:16... we have Jesus, praying to the Father that He will give the comforter to the Body of Christ... also three representing God.

In Romans 1:7, Hebrews 1:8 and Acts 5:3-4... Father who is God, Son who is God, and Holy Spirit who is God.

Also, this one I'll post:

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.

Now... I've heard it said that the Bible does not clearly teach the doctrine of the Trinity :confused

Why do some say this?

Hi Slug1,

I can find evidence of the trinity in the first line of Genesis :)

Slug1
Nov 1st 2013, 03:32 PM
Hi Slug1,

I can find evidence of the trinity in the first line of Genesis :)Hooah, was just using the NT scriptures. Denise brought it up about Genesis also.

ChangedByHim
Nov 1st 2013, 03:41 PM
In the Bible we read that Jesus is being baptized by John the Baptist, the Holy Spirit descends on Jesus in the form of a dove and the Father speaks from heaven. Matthew 3:16-17 Three parts of God, all happening at the same time.

In John 14:16... we have Jesus, praying to the Father that He will give the comforter to the Body of Christ... also three representing God.

In Romans 1:7, Hebrews 1:8 and Acts 5:3-4... Father who is God, Son who is God, and Holy Spirit who is God.

Also, this one I'll post:

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.

Now... I've heard it said that the Bible does not clearly teach the doctrine of the Trinity :confused

Why do some say this?

Good references Slug. However, I would not call it "three parts of God." The Father is God. The Son is God. The Spirit is God. They are not three parts of One, but Three in One. Make sense?

Jade99
Nov 1st 2013, 03:44 PM
Okay. If you are serious and honest and desperate to compassionately understand people outside of yourself.

Here is why people -- people who love God with their heart and soul and mind and strength, who trust in the Lord Jesus and believe God raised him from the dead, who love other people by the power of the holy spirit, and study the bible in prayer and thanksgiving -- are not convinced any of those verses teach the doctrine of the trinity.



The 'trinity' doctrine relies on specific vocabulary. Just to name a few of the words vital to teaching the trinity: persons, coeternal, coequal, coexistent, three. If none of these words are present in a text, then it is not teaching 'the trinity'.


Matthew 3.16-17 does not say: persons, coeternal, coequal, or three. 'Coexistent' can be understood on the basis that we see Jesus, and the spirit of God, and a voice from heaven simultaneously. But this text does not identify the spirit of God as a 'person' apart from the Father (the one speaking from heaven). When we read about the spirit of Elijah coming onto Elisha (2 Kings 2.9,15) or John (Luke 1.17), we do not think this spirit of Elijah was a 'person'. It is a figure of speech, an idiom. Without first assuming the spirit of God is a 'person', and without first assuming Jesus and the holy spirit are 'coeternal' and 'coequal' with the Father, we cannot find any of this taught in the text. This is not a matter of being 'in the spirit of the word' instead of 'in the letter of the word'. This is a matter of the idea just not being there, period.

John 14.16ff does not say: persons, coeternal, coequal, coexistent, or three. Two chapters later, as a part of the same overall discourse in which he promises to send the holy spirit as an 'advocate', Jesus tells his disciples, 'I have said these things to you in figures of speech'; it becomes glaring that this is the only place in the bible that the holy spirit is portrayed in personal terms, but Jesus then calls it all 'figures of speech'. Because the holy spirit is elsewhere called God's spirit and Jesus' spirit, and Jesus elsewhere is called the advocate, people find it unconvincing to then say the holy spirit -- God's spirit, Jesus' spirit -- is 'person' who is 'coexistent' and 'coeternal' and 'coequal', when none of those words are used.

Romans 1.7 (along with all of Paul's 'grace and peace' greetings, except for Colossians) mentions 'God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ'. At most, this implies that the Lord Jesus Christ should be understood in direct parallel to God our Father. Meaning, it is not a stretch to infer that Jesus is somehow intrinsic to God the Father; that God the Father is not complete without the Lord Jesus Christ, and vice versa. But this verse does not mention the holy spirit, nor any of the trinity-required vocabulary. Claiming this verse teaches the trinity doctrine is just way more than what Paul actually wrote.

Hebrews 1.8 clearly calls Jesus 'God'. But that is a far cry from 'coeternal', 'coequal', or 'three'. The holy spirit is also not mentioned as a separate 'person'. This verse, as it stands, is entirely compatible with modalism, Arianism (not to be confused with unitarianism), and binitarianism.

Acts 5.3-4 is a classic case of Hebrew parallel. In Psalm 8.4, 'man' and 'son of man' are identical; they refer to the exact same person. Likewise, when Peter has 'the holy spirit' and 'God' parallel, they refer to the exact same person: God. Because Luke does not mention multiple 'persons', nor 'three' of anyone, nor coeternal, nor coequal, nor coexistent, we would be overstepping the boundaries of God's word by claiming this teaches the trinity. It just is not there.

1 John 5.7 was not written by the author of the epistle. No one in the ancient Church ever mentions the verse, it is not found in any ancient Greek manuscripts, we know it had a dubious history in the 1500s, and it makes no sense in the contextual flow of 1 John 5. It was an addition centuries after the epistle was originally written, and even if it was original to the text, it does not mention 'persons', nor 'coeternal', nor 'coequal', so it still does not teach the trinity. This verse, as it stands, is entirely compatible with modalism, Arianism, or even Mormonism.



This is why people -- people who love God with their heart and soul and mind and strength, who trust in the Lord Jesus and believe God raised him from the dead, who love other people by the power of the holy spirit, and study the bible in prayer and thanksgiving -- do not believe the trinity doctrine is taught in any of these verses.

What??????????? (I'm dead serious. I don't understand your post at all)

Slug1
Nov 1st 2013, 03:44 PM
Good references Slug. However, I would not call it "three parts of God." The Father is God. The Son is God. The Spirit is God. They are not three parts of One, but Three in One. Make sense?True... poor choice of words.

exitludos
Nov 1st 2013, 03:51 PM
Just so that I'm on the same page with you are you saying that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one and the same just manifested in different ways?
No, that (modalism) is not what I believe.

Jade99
Nov 1st 2013, 03:54 PM
When I first learned about the trinity, I basically believed it at face value, but also though the verses given in Genesis, where it's clear that the trinity of God is at work. Especially, Gen 1:26 - Let us make man in our own image.

Then just by putting 2 and 2 together like

We sing the hymn Holy, Holy, Holy and the verse that says "Holy, Holy, Holy, Lord God Almighty; God in 3 persons, blessed trinity.

Another hymn I can't think of the name of the song, but one of the verse say: "To the great God in 3"

All creatures of our God and King, where one verse says "Praise, praise the Father, praise the Son, and praise the Spirit, 3 in one."

It was studying the verse that I learned in bible study but also really paying attention to the words of the hymns that we would sing.

In reference to the question, it seems like some people just don't believe in the trinity of God, because the word trinity itself is not written. Just like some people don't believe in the rapture, because the word rapture is not written. It's a combination of pride, wanting to be right, ignorance, and how they were taught. And this is just my opinion btw.

Other than that, it's almost like you have to read between the lines and piece the scripture together like a puzzle piece; but more importantly not study with your human mind, but ask the Holy Spirit to give you the understanding of the word to see how it fits spiritually and to understand it with a spiritual mind.

Jade99
Nov 1st 2013, 03:56 PM
Good references Slug. However, I would not call it "three parts of God." The Father is God. The Son is God. The Spirit is God. They are not three parts of One, but Three in One. Make sense?

Kinda like 1 God, 3 personalities?

keck553
Nov 1st 2013, 04:09 PM
Hooah, was just using the NT scriptures. Denise brought it up about Genesis also.

But the truths never change. Remember in ACTS when Paul used the "Old" Testament to show the reality Jesus to the Bereans? Proving God is One in three persons would have been a fundimental issue, because no Jew is going to practice polytheism. Paul had to prove the oneness of "Elohim" to get over that barrrier.


Kinda like 1 God, 3 personalities?

Maybe it's more like one God, three roles.

ChangedByHim
Nov 1st 2013, 04:10 PM
Kinda like 1 God, 3 personalities?

Not at all. That sounds like multiple personality disorder.

More like: 1 God, 3 Persons.

exitludos
Nov 1st 2013, 04:16 PM
Let me get past this so we're on the same sheet of understanding before I delve into the reply concerning the verses.

Vocabulary?
When asked to define 'salvation', that requires a certain vocabulary: sin, faith, justification, righteousness, God, etc.

Trinity is defined on very specific vocabulary: persons, coequal, coeternal, coexistent, three.

Salvation is a loaf of bread. It is right in front of us, sitting on the table. The moment you walk in the house, you can smell God baked it up for us. Meaning, entire books are devoted to explaining salvation (Romans, for example), and the authors bring in all of that necessary vocabulary to explain it. God's desire for us to be saved, to believe in the Lord Jesus, is plain as day.

Trinity is tiny crumbs of bread. It is thrown all over the house. We find one crumb in this room, another crumb in that room. Meaning, not once is it explained in the bible. No where does any author use the necessary vocabulary to teach the doctrine. Instead, people have to crawl through the bible, word by word, just to find a tiny selection of verses scattered in completely different books.

My point is: Salvation is taught plainly. God spells salvation out for us. He tells us just how important it is because of how much he inspired the biblical authors to write about it. In contrast, trinity, if it is taught, is very obscure. If God considered it necessary for us to believe the trinity, one would think he would not make us jump from one verse in Matthew to one verse in Acts to one verse in John to one verse in Romans, just to 'prove' it. Want to teach salvation? Here's an entire book on the topic. Want to teach trinity? You have to hop, skip, and jump all over the bible just to find a few verses that have to be read a very certain way. Anyone can do that with whatever doctrine they want. Binitarians do it, Arians do it, unitarians do it, modalists do it, Mormons do it, Calvinists do it, Arminians do it, etc.


In front of the underlined portion is a HUGE smoke screen hiding what it seems you believe.
There is no 'smoke screen'. You think I am hiding something, but I actually will be entirely up front with what I believe. Life is not like a Chick Tract.

My point was, God does not save a person for having perfect theology. He saves people who love him, who trust in the Lord Jesus, and who love others by the power of his holy spirit. Claiming anyone must believe in the trinity doctrine before they can be saved, is just as bad as saying they must be circumcised first, or that they must be baptized first, or that they must believe in OSAS first.


Do you believe in the Trinity of God?
I believe in God. I do not believe the trinity doctrine.

This is what I was getting at in my initial response to the discussion: Were you being genuine when you wanted to know why people do not believe the trinity is taught in the bible? Then here is why. You asked a question, I gave an answer. If you do not want to actually know why people do not believe the trinity is taught in the bible, then there is no point in asking in the first place. It makes the question seem like it is just bait for people who already agree with you, or bait to start a witch-hunt.

Jade99
Nov 1st 2013, 04:31 PM
Maybe it's more like one God, three roles.


Not at all. That sounds like multiple personality disorder.

More like: 1 God, 3 Persons.

Oh ok....This makes better sense. Because when I try to explain it, sometimes I have a hard time and can't find the words. Thank you both. :)

exitludos
Nov 1st 2013, 04:35 PM
'One God, three roles' is modalism.

'One God, three persons' is trinity.


This shows just how much the trinity doctrine requires that word 'persons'. Just one word off, even if it seems accurate, can result in a completely different perspective on the nature of God.

Jade99
Nov 1st 2013, 04:37 PM
When asked to define 'salvation', that requires a certain vocabulary: sin, faith, justification, righteousness, God, etc.

Trinity is defined on very specific vocabulary: persons, coequal, coeternal, coexistent, three.

Salvation is a loaf of bread. It is right in front of us, sitting on the table. The moment you walk in the house, you can smell God baked it up for us. Meaning, entire books are devoted to explaining salvation (Romans, for example), and the authors bring in all of that necessary vocabulary to explain it. God's desire for us to be saved, to believe in the Lord Jesus, is plain as day.

Trinity is tiny crumbs of bread. It is thrown all over the house. We find one crumb in this room, another crumb in that room. Meaning, not once is it explained in the bible. No where does any author use the necessary vocabulary to teach the doctrine. Instead, people have to crawl through the bible, word by word, just to find a tiny selection of verses scattered in completely different books.My point is: Salvation is taught plainly. God spells salvation out for us. He tells us just how important it is because of how much he inspired the biblical authors to write about it. In contrast, trinity, if it is taught, is very obscure. If God considered it necessary for us to believe the trinity, one would think he would not make us jump from one verse in Matthew to one verse in Acts to one verse in John to one verse in Romans, just to 'prove' it. Want to teach salvation? Here's an entire book on the topic. Want to teach trinity? You have to hop, skip, and jump all over the bible just to find a few verses that have to be read a very certain way. Anyone can do that with whatever doctrine they want. Binitarians do it, Arians do it, unitarians do it, modalists do it, Mormons do it, Calvinists do it, Arminians do it, etc.


There is no 'smoke screen'. You think I am hiding something, but I actually will be entirely up front with what I believe. Life is not like a Chick Tract.


I believe in God. I do not believe the trinity doctrine.

This is what I was getting at in my initial response to the discussion: Were you being genuine when you wanted to know why people do not believe the trinity is taught in the bible? Then here is why. You asked a question, I gave an answer. If you do not want to actually know why people do not believe the trinity is taught in the bible, then there is no point in asking in the first place. It makes the question seem like it is just bait for people who already agree with you, or bait to start a witch-hunt.

This definitely made no sense.

Do you believe that Jesus is God?
Do you believe that the Holy Spirit is God?

When they say baptize them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit - That's the trinity of God. Like Keck and Changebyhim said, 1 God, 3 persons. God the Father, God the Son who is Jesus Christ, and God the Holy Spirit.

Jade99
Nov 1st 2013, 04:38 PM
'One God, three roles' is modalism.

'One God, three persons' is trinity.


This shows just how much the trinity doctrine requires that word 'persons'. Just one word off, even if it seems accurate, can result in a completely different perspective on the nature of God.

The trinity doctrine is hard to understand, so do you just don't believe it because it's complicated or you just don't believe in it at all?

Not picking on you or anything. It's just that I get curious when someone say that they don't believe in the trinity. I like to pick the brain of the person. I guess it's the former psychology major in me.

exitludos
Nov 1st 2013, 04:44 PM
I do not believe the trinity doctrine, because I do not believe it is taught in the bible.

Salvation is something that is taught plain as day. It is right there in front of us when we open the bible. Entire books are devoted to teaching it. Like I mentioned above, 'salvation' is the entire subject of Romans. It is a loaf of bread sitting on the table, that you can smell the moment you open the door to the house. God so wonderfully shows us what salvation is and why we need it.

No biblical author actually teaches 'God is three persons, coequal, coeternal, coexistent'. The only way to get trinity out of the bible is to hop, skip, and jump between individual verses in unrelated books, and take those verses out of their natural contexts. If it is in the bible, it is not plain as day, it is bread crumbs buried in the carpet that you have to crawl and dig to find, and have to look at just right when you find it. If God set out to teach us the trinity doctrine, he did a really lousy job showing it to us or why we need to believe it.



And I do not mind discussing the issue. I love God, and I love exploring his word with other people.

keck553
Nov 1st 2013, 04:48 PM
'One God, three roles' is modalism.

'One God, three persons' is trinity.


This shows just how much the trinity doctrine requires that word 'persons'. Just one word off, even if it seems accurate, can result in a completely different perspective on the nature of God.

So Jesus' manifestation on earth was the same as the Father's? The Holy Spirit's manifestation is the same as the Father's? The Father's manifestation is the same as Jesus?

That sounds confusing. Please clarify your exact belief, as I am confused where you are coming from.

Curtis
Nov 1st 2013, 04:55 PM
I do not believe the trinity doctrine, because I do not believe it is taught in the bible.

Salvation is something that is taught plain as day. It is right there in front of us when we open the bible. Entire books are devoted to teaching it. Like I mentioned above, 'salvation' is the entire subject of Romans. It is a loaf of bread sitting on the table, that you can smell the moment you open the door to the house. God so wonderfully shows us what salvation is and why we need it.

No biblical author actually teaches 'God is three persons, coequal, coeternal, coexistent'. The only way to get trinity out of the bible is to hop, skip, and jump between individual verses in unrelated books, and take those verses out of their natural contexts. If it is in the bible, it is not plain as day, it is bread crumbs buried in the carpet that you have to crawl and dig to find, and have to look at just right when you find it. If God set out to teach us the trinity doctrine, he did a really lousy job showing it to us or why we need to believe it.

And I do not mind discussing the issue. I love God, and I love exploring his word with other people.

I really think that the trinity issue is something only God can reveal unto his children. It is known as a mystery of God, and only the Lord can unveil this mystery unto us. As we grow in the Lord and the power of his might these things become more clearer to us than before. Remember Jesus said that if we keep his commandments then we are loving him and then the Father will love us, and Jesus said I will love him and manifest myself unto him. God loves us by revealing himself to us.

Col 2:1 For I want you to know how great a struggle I have for you and for those at Laodicea and for all who have not seen me face to face,
Col 2:2 that their hearts may be encouraged, being knit together in love, to reach all the riches of full assurance of understanding and the knowledge of God's mystery, which is Christ,
Col 2:3 in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

exitludos
Nov 1st 2013, 05:10 PM
So Jesus' manifestation on earth was the same as the Father's? The Holy Spirit's manifestation is the same as the Father's? The Father's manifestation is the same as Jesus?

That sounds confusing.
Actually, I am not sure what any of that means, either. That still sounds like modalism to me, but I do not understand your meaning of 'manifestation' or even 'the same'.


Please clarify your exact belief, as I am confused where you are coming from.
I do not have an exact belief, because I do not believe the bible teaches or requires one. I could just point you to the Apostles Creed and say I believe it entirely, but that probably would not suffice. Here is the best I can offer, without weighing it down by being overly-specific.


I believe in one God, the Father. (Everything from the Shema forward.)

I believe the man Jesus, the Christ, is the son of God, and the perfect and complete revelation of God. ('Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father.')

I believe our worship of God must include worship of Jesus. (For example, worship in the Revelation is devoted to both God who sits on the throne, and the Lamb who approaches and is seated on that same throne.)

I believe the holy spirit is the spirit of God and of Jesus. When the holy spirit comes to live in us, it is the spirit of God and of Jesus living in us. We need the holy spirit in us -- God in us, Jesus in us -- to be saved.


I do not believe the holy spirit is a 'person'. (I gave the example of Elijah earlier; Elijah's spirit is not a person even though it 'comes' and 'rests' on Elisha and John.)

I do not believe God the Father and the son of God are the same 'person'. The bible clearly distinguishes the two. (I agree with the usual criticism: it would be absurd for Jesus to pray to the Father, if Jesus and the Father are the same 'person'.)

I do not believe Jesus is 'just' a man, though I do think many Christians downplay or ignore his humanity in order to defend the trinity doctrine.

I do not believe in trinitarianism, nor binitarianism, nor Arianism, nor unitarianism, nor modalism, etc. I personally think they are honest attempts at trying to understand God, but I think they all miss the mark because they all step way outside of the bible.

keck553
Nov 1st 2013, 05:16 PM
I think we are on the same page....can I just ask a couple of things - How do you describe the plural nature of "Elohim" and how would you describe "echad?" (and please don't just say "one")

Do you believe Jesus is a created being?
Do you believe Jesus is contained in "Elohim?"

Jade99
Nov 1st 2013, 05:45 PM
I do not believe the trinity doctrine, because I do not believe it is taught in the bible.

Salvation is something that is taught plain as day. It is right there in front of us when we open the bible. Entire books are devoted to teaching it. Like I mentioned above, 'salvation' is the entire subject of Romans. It is a loaf of bread sitting on the table, that you can smell the moment you open the door to the house. God so wonderfully shows us what salvation is and why we need it.

No biblical author actually teaches 'God is three persons, coequal, coeternal, coexistent'. The only way to get trinity out of the bible is to hop, skip, and jump between individual verses in unrelated books, and take those verses out of their natural contexts. If it is in the bible, it is not plain as day, it is bread crumbs buried in the carpet that you have to crawl and dig to find, and have to look at just right when you find it. If God set out to teach us the trinity doctrine, he did a really lousy job showing it to us or why we need to believe it.



And I do not mind discussing the issue. I love God, and I love exploring his word with other people.

Ok, I see your point. Thanks for explaining.

Pbminimum
Nov 1st 2013, 06:10 PM
I really don't see why it's so hard for so many to understand the Trinity. The Father, Who Jesus said He was one with. The Son, God in the flesh. The Spirit, whom Jesus said testified of Him. Jesus, without a doubt refered to the Father and the Spirit apart from Himself but withing Himself. The three are different entities , but one and the same. There is really no arguement to be made there as scripture is crystal clear about it.

The trinity is the main arguement that muslims use to try to discount Chrisianity. I met up with one not too long ago. He was a bannana salesman. He was struggling to understand, but just couldn't seem to get it. I picked up a bannana and asked him if the peel was a bannana. He said yes. I asked him if the meat was the bannana. He said yes. I asked him if the seed was a bannana. He said yes. 5 days later I got to lead him to Christ.

exitludos
Nov 1st 2013, 07:19 PM
I think we are on the same page....can I just ask a couple of things - How do you describe the plural nature of "Elohim"
Many Hebrew nouns use the plural form of a word when only an individual object is being talked about.

Are you familiar with the behemoth, from Job 40? The word 'behemoth' is the plural form of the word 'behemah'. But when God describes the behemoth in Job 40, he is speaking of an individual object, because all of the verbs are in the singular (such as 'he eats' instead of 'they eat' in 40.15). When the verb is in the singular, the use of 'elohim' is not enough to demonstrate plurality in the object; the verb tells us whether 'elohim' is plurality or singularity.

Aside from God himself, 'elohim' is used for false gods, for angels, and for humans. Two very well-known examples are when Moses and Samuel are each called 'an elohim' (Exodus 7.1 and 1 Kings 28.13). So when God is called 'elohim' in Hebrew, it does not mean 'three persons', especially when the verbs are in the singular. Otherwise the bible is saying Moses is 'three persons', and Samuel is 'three persons', and those false gods and angels and humans are 'three persons'.


and how would you describe "echad?" (and please don't just say "one")
Echad means 'one' or 'first' or 'single' or 'individual'. It often is erroneously said that echad means 'compound unity'. Sometimes people point to 'one cluster of grapes' to prove their point. The plurality comes from 'cluster of grapes', not the word 'one'.


Do you believe Jesus is a created being?
I believe Jesus was born like any other human being. But I do not believe he was 'created' in the way anyone who is 'just' an angel or 'just' a human was created. Jesus is God, and God is not created.

We can look at it this way. Separate all that exists into two categories: Creator and Created. The only thing that falls in the category of Creator: God who created all things. And of course everything else fall in the category of Created: the heavens and the earth and everything in them. This is something the bible is very, very clear on. God alone is Creator. Everything else is Created.

When we look at the bible, where does it place Jesus? In the category of Creator. But only God is Creator. So even though Jesus was born like any other human being, he cannot be Created. So when we think of God, we must think of Jesus.


Do you believe Jesus is contained in "Elohim?"
If we are translating 'elohim' to means 'God' (and not 'gods'), then no, Jesus is not contained in elohim. He is elohim. (For example, Psalm 45.6 and Hebrews 1.8: 'But of the son he says, "Your throne, o elohim, is forever and ever"'.)

keck553
Nov 1st 2013, 07:25 PM
Do you mean He's fully God, the Father is fully God and the Holy Spirit is fully God? I can see how my attempt at explaining myself could led you to interpret it as somehow diminishing Jesus, and that is not my intent.

exitludos, can I be more specific? Are you part of the "oneness movement?"

exitludos
Nov 1st 2013, 07:27 PM
No.

The Oneness perspective is modalism, which I do not agree with.

I wrote before, very specifically: I agree with the usual criticism: it would be absurd for Jesus to pray to the Father, if Jesus and the Father are the same 'person'.

keck553
Nov 1st 2013, 07:34 PM
No.


The Oneness perspective is modalism, which I do not agree with.

I wrote before, very specifically: I agree with the usual criticism: it would be absurd for Jesus to pray to the Father, if Jesus and the Father are the same 'person'.

Thank you for putting up with my questions and God bless you. I understand your position now. Thanks again.

ewq1938
Nov 1st 2013, 09:19 PM
'One God, three roles' is modalism.

'One God, three persons' is trinity.


This shows just how much the trinity doctrine requires that word 'persons'.

This is incorrect. The word trinity simply means 3. The Orthodox definition of Trinity adds persons and other things.

The English word Trinity is derived from Latin Trinitas, meaning "the number three, a triad". This abstract noun is formed from the adjective trinus (three each, threefold, triple),[10] as the word unitas is the abstract noun formed from unus (one).

The corresponding term in Greek is Strong's 5140 treis tria meaning "a set of three" or "the number three".

If you disagree that there are three which are identified as God in scripture then fine, but if you agree and it's mainly "persons" you disagree with like myself, then you do believe in a Trinity, just not the Orthodox definition of it.

ewq1938
Nov 1st 2013, 09:32 PM
Many Hebrew nouns use the plural form of a word when only an individual object is being talked about.

Are you familiar with the behemoth, from Job 40? The word 'behemoth' is the plural form of the word 'behemah'. But when God describes the behemoth in Job 40, he is speaking of an individual object, because all of the verbs are in the singular (such as 'he eats' instead of 'they eat' in 40.15). When the verb is in the singular, the use of 'elohim' is not enough to demonstrate plurality in the object; the verb tells us whether 'elohim' is plurality or singularity.

Yes and in Genesis 1 we see a plural Elohim and a plural verb and a plural pronoun proving God is a plurality:

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.


All three of these are written in the plural forms of these words.


http://www.bible.ca/trinity/trinity-oneness-unity-plural-nouns-pronouns-verbs-adverbs.htm

"a. "Let Us [plural pronoun] make [plural of asah] man in Our [plural pronoun] image [singular], according to Our [plural pronoun] likeness [singular]" Genesis 1:26"

ChangedByHim
Nov 1st 2013, 09:36 PM
I'm surprised at how weak everyone's understanding and/or belief of the Trinity is.

exitludos
Nov 2nd 2013, 03:19 AM
This is incorrect. The word trinity simply means 3. The Orthodox definition of Trinity adds persons and other things.
I understand the linguistic origin of the word 'trinity' and its historical usage. I am going by the common definition of 'trinity' as most people today define the term (not writers from the second century), which is 'three persons, coequal, coeternal, coexistent'.



Yes and in Genesis 1 we see a plural Elohim and a plural verb and a plural pronoun proving God is a plurality:

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

All three of these are written in the plural forms of these words.
I can see that... but as I said before, the plurality comes from the verb ('make'), and in this case the additional noun ('us'), not from 'elohim'.

The God-is-plural reading of this verse is not the only way; and I think the one or two other approaches make much more sense from the historical context to which Genesis 1 was written.

ewq1938
Nov 2nd 2013, 03:28 AM
I understand the linguistic origin of the word 'trinity' and its historical usage. I am going by the common definition of 'trinity' as most people today define the term (not writers from the second century), which is 'three persons, coequal, coeternal, coexistent'.


Still, to be more accurate and accuracy being extremely important concerning an issue where you have problems with the use of certain words! It is not a Trinity that I *think* you take issue with, but orthodox Trinity which adds "persons, coequal, coeternal, coexistent" to the definition.

To better understand your position, is The Father God? Is Jesus God? Is the Holy Spirit God? Are all three divine?








I can see that... but as I said before, the plurality comes from the verb ('make'), and in this case the additional noun ('us'), not from 'elohim'.

The God-is-plural reading of this verse is not the only way; and I think the one or two other approaches make much more sense from the historical context to which Genesis 1 was written.

If you click on that link you will see many other examples of a plural Elohim and a plural verb.

exitludos
Nov 2nd 2013, 03:36 AM
Still, to be more accurate and accuracy being extremely important concerning an issue where you have problems with the use of certain words! It is not a Trinity that I *think* you take issue with, but orthodox Trinity which adds "persons, coequal, coeternal, coexistent" to the definition.

To better understand your position, is The Father God? Is Jesus God? Is the Holy Spirit God? Are all three divine?
http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php/251639-An-example-of-the-Trinity?p=3065458#post3065458



If you click on that link you will see many other examples of a plural Elohim and a plural verb.
Just for clarity, are you asking for my thoughts on every verse he mentions? I do not have a problem if you are, but I want to make sure I understand how you expect me to respond to this.

ewq1938
Nov 2nd 2013, 03:58 AM
http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php/251639-An-example-of-the-Trinity?p=3065458#post3065458

I read that already. It only affirms you believe the Father is God. It doesn't address if you feel Christ and the HS are God.


Again:

Is Jesus God? Is the Holy Spirit God? Are all three divine?






Just for clarity, are you asking for my thoughts on every verse he mentions? I do not have a problem if you are, but I want to make sure I understand how you expect me to respond to this.

No, I just want you to know there is overwhelming evidence of the plural elohim being paired with plural verbs making elohim plural.

exitludos
Nov 2nd 2013, 04:16 AM
Is Jesus God?
Here is what I wrote before:

I believe the man Jesus, the Christ, is the son of God, and the perfect and complete revelation of God. ('Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father.')

I believe our worship of God must include worship of Jesus. (For example, worship in the Revelation is devoted to both God who sits on the throne, and the Lamb who approaches and is seated on that same throne.)

I believe Jesus was born like any other human being. But I do not believe he was 'created' in the way anyone who is 'just' an angel or 'just' a human was created. Jesus is God, and God is not created.

We can look at it this way. Separate all that exists into two categories: Creator and Created. The only thing that falls in the category of Creator: God who created all things. And of course everything else fall in the category of Created: the heavens and the earth and everything in them. This is something the bible is very, very clear on. God alone is Creator. Everything else is Created.

When we look at the bible, where does it place Jesus? In the category of Creator. But only God is Creator. So even though Jesus was born like any other human being, he cannot be Created. So when we think of God, we must think of Jesus.


Is the Holy Spirit God?
Here is what I wrote before:

I believe the holy spirit is the spirit of God and of Jesus. When the holy spirit comes to live in us, it is the spirit of God and of Jesus living in us. We need the holy spirit in us -- God in us, Jesus in us -- to be saved.

I do not believe the holy spirit is a 'person'. (I gave the example of Elijah earlier; Elijah's spirit is not a person even though it 'comes' and 'rests' on Elisha and John.)




No, I just want you to know there is overwhelming evidence of the plural elohim being paired with plural verbs making elohim plural.
You are expecting me to suddenly be floored, as if this is a new and shocking for me. I am already aware of all these texts. None of them convinces me of the trinity doctrine. The lack of convincing me is actually what caused me to reject the trinity doctrine, after believing it for most of my life.

The page relies on an ignorance of how Hebrew nouns and verbs function to make most of its arguments. It relies on mistranslations of Genesis 20.13 and 35.7.

When I see that someone relies on ignorance and mistranslation to 'prove' a doctrine, that makes me question it more, not less.

ewq1938
Nov 2nd 2013, 04:25 AM
You haven't answered my questions. What you wrote before does not answer them. Is Jesus God? It's a yes or no question. What are you afraid of? Your answer won't bother me but your refusal to directly answer my question does bother me.





Here is what I wrote before:

I believe the man Jesus, the Christ, is the son of God, and the perfect and complete revelation of God. ('Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father.')

I believe our worship of God must include worship of Jesus. (For example, worship in the Revelation is devoted to both God who sits on the throne, and the Lamb who approaches and is seated on that same throne.)

I believe Jesus was born like any other human being. But I do not believe he was 'created' in the way anyone who is 'just' an angel or 'just' a human was created. Jesus is God, and God is not created.

We can look at it this way. Separate all that exists into two categories: Creator and Created. The only thing that falls in the category of Creator: God who created all things. And of course everything else fall in the category of Created: the heavens and the earth and everything in them. This is something the bible is very, very clear on. God alone is Creator. Everything else is Created.

When we look at the bible, where does it place Jesus? In the category of Creator. But only God is Creator. So even though Jesus was born like any other human being, he cannot be Created. So when we think of God, we must think of Jesus.


Here is what I wrote before:

I believe the holy spirit is the spirit of God and of Jesus. When the holy spirit comes to live in us, it is the spirit of God and of Jesus living in us. We need the holy spirit in us -- God in us, Jesus in us -- to be saved.

I do not believe the holy spirit is a 'person'. (I gave the example of Elijah earlier; Elijah's spirit is not a person even though it 'comes' and 'rests' on Elisha and John.)




You are expecting me to suddenly be floored, as if this is a new and shocking for me. I am already aware of all these texts. None of them convinces me of the trinity doctrine. The lack of convincing me is actually what caused me to reject the trinity doctrine, after believing it for most of my life.

The page relies on an ignorance of how Hebrew nouns and verbs function to make most of its arguments. It relies on mistranslations of Genesis 20.13 and 35.7.

When I see that someone relies on ignorance and mistranslation to 'prove' a doctrine, that makes me question it more, not less.

exitludos
Nov 2nd 2013, 04:41 AM
You haven't answered my questions. What you wrote before does not answer them. Is Jesus God? It's a yes or no question. What are you afraid of? Your answer won't bother me but your refusal to directly answer my question does bother me.
My answer is in my previous posts, plain as day. Read them.


I believe the man Jesus, the Christ, is the son of God, and the perfect and complete revelation of God. ('Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father.')

I believe our worship of God must include worship of Jesus. (For example, worship in the Revelation is devoted to both God who sits on the throne, and the Lamb who approaches and is seated on that same throne.)

I believe Jesus was born like any other human being. But I do not believe he was 'created' in the way anyone who is 'just' an angel or 'just' a human was created. Jesus is God, and God is not created.

We can look at it this way. Separate all that exists into two categories: Creator and Created. The only thing that falls in the category of Creator: God who created all things. And of course everything else fall in the category of Created: the heavens and the earth and everything in them. This is something the bible is very, very clear on. God alone is Creator. Everything else is Created.

When we look at the bible, where does it place Jesus? In the category of Creator. But only God is Creator. So even though Jesus was born like any other human being, he cannot be Created. So when we think of God, we must think of Jesus.

You say I am 'afraid' of answering your question, 'Is Jesus God?'

Look at the part in bold. Which I wrote some time before you ever asked the question. So how exactly can you think I am 'afraid' of answering the question?

ewq1938
Nov 2nd 2013, 04:56 AM
My answer is in my previous posts, plain as day. Read them.



You say I am 'afraid' of answering your question, 'Is Jesus God?'

False! I ASKED if you were, I didn't SAY you were.




Look at the part in bold. Which I wrote some time before you ever asked the question. So how exactly can you think I am 'afraid' of answering the question?


Because you refuse to directly answer. I'm done asking you. I dislike this type of behavior.

divaD
Nov 2nd 2013, 05:31 AM
You haven't answered my questions. What you wrote before does not answer them. Is Jesus God? It's a yes or no question. What are you afraid of? Your answer won't bother me but your refusal to directly answer my question does bother me.

What in the world are you talking about here? What am I missing here? Your question was clearly answered in post #56 for one. Let me highlight some of what was said in that post, and what I think the poster was saying, then see if the poster agrees that I read him right.


From Post #56...
"I believe Jesus was born like any other human being. But I do not believe he was 'created' in the way anyone who is 'just' an angel or 'just' a human was created. Jesus is God, and God is not created.

We can look at it this way. Separate all that exists into two categories: Creator and Created. The only thing that falls in the category of Creator: God who created all things. And of course everything else fall in the category of Created: the heavens and the earth and everything in them. This is something the bible is very, very clear on. God alone is Creator. Everything else is Created.

When we look at the bible, where does it place Jesus? In the category of Creator. But only God is Creator. So even though Jesus was born like any other human being, he cannot be Created. So when we think of God, we must think of Jesus."


The first paragraph clearly says exitludos concludes that Jesus is God, and then concludes God is not created. That then equals Jesus is not created either.

The second paragraph lists 2 categories, Creator and Created. Then he goes on to say that only God is Creator. Then he goes on to say that Jesus can't be Created. That then places Jesus in the Creator category by default, where he clearly says this in the 3rd paragraph., which then agrees with the first paragraph where he says Jesus is God. It's all right there in black and white plain as day, yet you're wrongly giving him a hard time for some reason. And so what if he doesn't find the trinity Biblical, if that is indeed his conclusions. He believes that Jesus is God, that's what matters most.

ewq1938
Nov 2nd 2013, 05:36 AM
The first paragraph clearly says exitludos concludes that Jesus is God, and then concludes God is not created. That then equals Jesus is not created either.

GREAT! So they will say YES, when asked if Jesus is God right? ......they haven't done that after being asked twice.

Ask them yourself if you don't believe me.



He believes that Jesus is God, that's what matters most.


He has not stated this yet even though directly asked this question.

divaD
Nov 2nd 2013, 05:56 AM
GREAT! So they will say YES, when asked if Jesus is God right? ......they haven't done that after being asked twice.

Ask them yourself if you don't believe me.




He has not stated this yet even though directly asked this question.

It's getting late, so I'm a bit too tired to start from the beginning of the conversation between you two. Perhaps I missed something then. Tomorrow I'll try and follow you two's conversation from the beginning. I only caught the tail end of it tonight. In the meantime, one guess might be, perhaps he saw no need to answer it yet again if he already answered it previously?

ewq1938
Nov 2nd 2013, 06:02 AM
It's getting late, so I'm a bit too tired to start from the beginning of the conversation between you two. Perhaps I missed something then. Tomorrow I'll try and follow you two's conversation from the beginning. I only caught the tail end of it tonight. In the meantime, one guess might be, perhaps he saw no need to answer it yet again if he already answered it previously?

Before you crash, ask him if he believes Jesus is God and be prepared to get a non answer.

divaD
Nov 2nd 2013, 06:14 AM
Before you crash, ask him if he believes Jesus is God and be prepared to get a non answer.

Out of curiosity, why would I need to ask him? I already saw in post # 56 with my own eyes that he concludes Jesus is God. Those were his own words and own thoughts, correct? You two don't have history with each other do you? Like where you may have disagreed about other things in other threads, and because of that, the communication between you two are not the strongest? I'm not saying that's what it might be, only asking, since I have seen things like that before between other posters that disagreed about certain things.

ewq1938
Nov 2nd 2013, 06:28 AM
Out of curiosity, why would I need to ask him? I already saw in post # 56 with my own eyes that he concludes Jesus is God.

I think you may think he concludes this but could be wrong.



Those were his own words and own thoughts, correct? You two don't have history with each other do you?

Not at all, actually we are somewhat close in that we don't accept orthodox definitions on the Trinity.

shepherdsword
Nov 2nd 2013, 06:28 AM
GREAT! So they will say YES, when asked if Jesus is God right? ......they haven't done that after being asked twice.

Ask them yourself if you don't believe me.




He has not stated this yet even though directly asked this question.

Brother I am not sure why you keep asking him? He plainly confessed that Jesus is God. I don't agree with how I think I see exitludos position on the Trinity but he isn't denying the deity of Christ.


Here is what I wrote before:

I believe the man Jesus, the Christ, is the son of God, and the perfect and complete revelation of God. ('Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father.')

I believe our worship of God must include worship of Jesus. (For example, worship in the Revelation is devoted to both God who sits on the throne, and the Lamb who approaches and is seated on that same throne.)

[I]I believe Jesus was born like any other human being. But I do not believe he was 'created' in the way anyone who is 'just' an angel or 'just' a human was created. Jesus is God, and God is not created.



Why is the statement above not sufficient to settle his belief on this matter?

ewq1938
Nov 2nd 2013, 06:45 AM
Brother I am not sure why you keep asking him? He plainly confessed that Jesus is God. I don't agree with how I think I see exitludos position on the Trinity but he isn't denying the deity of Christ.



Why is the statement above not sufficient to settle his belief on this matter?

Sorry Brother, I have not seen a "plain" confession that Jesus is God from him. If I am wrong I will quickly apologize, I assure you.

****Correction, I see it now. NOt sure why it wasn't directly answered when asked but thank you for highlighting it.

So, exitludos denies the trinity, but agrees that the Father and the Son are God....but does he agree the HS is God?

Dani
Nov 2nd 2013, 06:55 AM
I have asked God to guide my thoughts...

I have only been here about a month.

It was great for awhile, now it is not edifying, simply sickening.

I leave feeling like I have witnessed a kindergarten fight. Every thread send up the same way...bickering about who is right, when, on the last day it won't even matter.
Ya'll are just tearing people down, and don't seem to care. You talk about God, and what is right; do you think He is pleased with all this??????????

I posted a really nice post about all this bickering but I see the bickering over who is right and who is wrong is more important than the feelings of others who might want to come here and not witness these CHILDISH posts.

I could just not 'enter' Bible chat, however when I find something I am interested in, it has already been attacked. I didn't join to be afraid to go in one of the 'titles' - don't know the proper name of these threads.

Then, someone starts another thread not even along the same subject and it starts all over again.
All you do is fight.


I have had enough for awhile. :(
Rage on....If you think this is not Christian behavior, wonder where I learned it?? SOME of you have been fine examples...:confused

I will pray that as you read my ? unkind ? post, you will look at yourselves and see why I posted this.
Blessings and prayers for everyone myself included...
Dani

shepherdsword
Nov 2nd 2013, 07:14 AM
I have asked God to guide my thoughts...

I have only been here about a month.

It was great for awhile, now it is not edifying, simply sickening.

I leave feeling like I have witnessed a kindergarten fight. Every thread send up the same way...bickering about who is right, when, on the last day it won't even matter.
Ya'll are just tearing people down, and don't seem to care. You talk about God, and what is right; do you think He is pleased with all this??????????

I posted a really nice post about all this bickering but I see the bickering over who is right and who is wrong is more important than the feelings of others who might want to come here and not witness these CHILDISH posts.

I could just not 'enter' Bible chat, however when I find something I am interested in, it has already been attacked. I didn't join to be afraid to go in one of the 'titles' - don't know the proper name of these threads.

Then, someone starts another thread not even along the same subject and it starts all over again.
All you do is fight.


I have had enough for awhile. :(
Rage on....If you think this is not Christian behavior, wonder where I learned it?? SOME of you have been fine examples...:confused

I will pray that as you read my ? unkind ? post, you will look at yourselves and see why I posted this.
Blessings and prayers for everyone myself included...
Dani

There will always be heated debate by those who are passionate for truth. Paul and Barnabas disputed so strongly with each other they separated. While it is true we should let our words be seasoned with salt we are also commanded to contend earnestly for the faith.

Jud 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.


We are told why in the next verse:

Jud 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Granted...both sides will see the other as the once deceived but in no place are we commanded to be in unity over touchy feely concepts that are only half true. Eternity may be at stake for some. We need to face the fact that Satan has had 2,000 years to divide us and obfuscate the truth. We need to contend about these matters. However,we need to salt that with:

Eph 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

Learning how to do this is part of growing up. I think someone who takes their marbles and goes home because they don't see everyone singing "kumbaya" needs some maturing themselves. Just my thoughts on it.

shepherdsword
Nov 2nd 2013, 07:21 AM
Sorry Brother, I have not seen a "plain" confession that Jesus is God from him. If I am wrong I will quickly apologize, I assure you.

****Correction, I see it now. NOt sure why it wasn't directly answered when asked but thank you for highlighting it.

So, exitludos denies the trinity, but agrees that the Father and the Son are God....but does he agree the HS is God?

You bring up a good question. I believe the Holy Spirit is God because blaspemy against Him is unforgivable. All other blasphemy against the Father and Son is forgivable:

Mar 3:28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation

If this doesn't explicitly state the Holy Spirit as a distinct person I don't know what else could possible do so.

ewq1938
Nov 2nd 2013, 07:25 AM
You bring up a good question. I believe the Holy Spirit is God because blaspemy against Him is unforgivable. All other blasphemy against the Father and Son is forgivable:

Mar 3:28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation




It seems the Holy Spirit is God here almost more than the others are lol

shepherdsword
Nov 2nd 2013, 07:33 AM
It seems the Holy Spirit is God here almost more than the others are lol

Exactly! This goes in line with His position in redemption. It is akin to "no man knows the day or the hour of the coming of the Son of man except the Father".We need to look at the statements concerning each member of the Godhead and see them through the respective positions they hold in creation and the redemption of man. Here is my position on the Trinity. The Father is God. The Holy Spirit is God. The Son is God. They are distinct and yet one.(echad or a unity out of plurality such as Adam and Eve had when they became "one" flesh" ). This concept is not taught by any particular single passage but weighs in with the entire council of God in both the Old and New testaments. There is no need to elaborate further. We get into trouble when we extrapolate concepts that are derived from human reason when we go further than this.

Balabusha
Nov 2nd 2013, 09:42 AM
One poster claims that the Trinity is not contained in the plural of El, this is Elohim. The ironic thing about this mans exegesis on Elohim is that it actually is the backdrop of the Trinity

1. A deer is singular or plural "I seen a lone deer" "I seen many deer"
2. In the same fashion Elohim is plural and El is singular in meaning and they are used side by side in the same passage in a few instances.
3. So we have to be careful in this as in the same instance of the "deer" being singular and plural, we don't want to force three God's into the text.

Keep the Shema in mind when reading this "Hear, Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is One". Deut. 6:4

1. The Sh'ma shows that God is one, and Elohim shows that God encompasses more than we can know. El and Elohim used together show that we can't put God in a box. This is not a proof text for the Trinity, it is a sign post to the Trinity-the mysteries of God.
2. Go back to the Sh'ma-this is the foundation for the Trinity.

God the Father in the Old Testament
1. God as a Father is not a New Testament idea
Deuteronomy 32:6
Is this the way you repay the Lord,
you foolish and unwise people?
Is he not your Father, your Creator,
who made you and formed you?
Hosea 11:1
“When Israel was a child, I loved him,
and out of Egypt I called my son.
Isaiah 63:16
But you are our Father,
though Abraham does not know us
or Israel acknowledge us;
you, Lord, are our Father,
our Redeemer from of old is your name.
Psalms 68:5
A father to the fatherless, a defender of widows,
is God in his holy dwelling.

God shows His Fatherhood in relationship, not biology.

God is shown as a "son"

Psalm 2:7
I will proclaim the Lord’s decree:
He said to me, “You are my son;
today I have become your father.
-This is backed up by Hebrews 1:5
-This was not only in relation to the sons of David, but to the Son of the Davidic Covenant-David was the witness
Psalms 2:12
Kiss his son, or he will be angry
and your way will lead to your destruction,
for his wrath can flare up in a moment.
Blessed are all who take refuge in him.
-this is God's warning to submit To His Son.
Proverbs 30:4
Who has gone up to heaven and come down?
Whose hands have gathered up the wind?
Who has wrapped up the waters in a cloak?
Who has established all the ends of the earth?
What is his name, and what is the name of his son?
Surely you know!
Daniel 7:13-14
“In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man,[a] coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

God as the "Spirit"

Exodus 31:3
and I have filled him with the Spirit of God, with wisdom, with understanding, with knowledge and with all kinds of skills—
Psalm 51:11
Do not cast me from your presence
or take your Holy Spirit from me.
Numbers 11:25
Then the Lord came down in the cloud and spoke with him, and he took some of the power of the Spirit that was on him and put it on the seventy elders. When the Spirit rested on them, they prophesied—but did not do so again.

God is also illustrated in female form with Lady Wisdom. God has no gender, and I would not refer to Him as a female as the Bible instructs us how to properly address "Him" but Wisdom is another illustration of the Trinity in the Tanakh
1. In the book of proverbs, Wisdom is shouting out in the streets calling to God's people to listen to her, but God's people reject Her (Proverbs 8:4-7)
2. Wisdom is present with God at Creation
Proverbs 8:30-31
30 Then I was constantly at his side.
I was filled with delight day after day,
rejoicing always in his presence,
31 rejoicing in his whole world
and delighting in mankind.

-There are just too many to list
-To state that Elohim,Adonai or echad is just in the singular is to miss the point of the mystery of God in the Tanakh.
-The Trinity is one "what" with three "whos"

Slug1
Nov 2nd 2013, 11:13 AM
In reading through much of this thread over the past couple days... if I say, "Trinity" isn't about DEFINING God and if you are looking for "words" that define the Trinity, you are not going to find help in the Bible.

But if you are looking at the word Trinity as a "description" of God and as the Godhead, the Bible describes or even better, REVEALS God as... The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. That this is declared clearly throughout the Bible and the word Trinity can be fully understood not by definition (reading the Bible as just words), but by description and by REVELATION through the reading of the Word of God in spirit of what is said, not HOW it is said. That understanding the Trinity is about: faithfully (in faith and belief) accepting HOW God is revealed to mankind.

divaD
Nov 2nd 2013, 02:38 PM
You bring up a good question. I believe the Holy Spirit is God because blaspemy against Him is unforgivable. All other blasphemy against the Father and Son is forgivable:

Mar 3:28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation

If this doesn't explicitly state the Holy Spirit as a distinct person I don't know what else could possible do so.


I agree, and would add this as well. The Holy Spirit is a spirit. what spirit is not a person? All unseen spirits in the spirit realm are persons, aren't they? If yes, how then could this exclude the Holy Spirit, the fact He too is a spirit? Maybe not exactly the same kind of spirit as the rest of the spirits, since they would have been created and He wouldn't have been. But still, the Scriptures say He is a spirit, which then equates to being a person.

divaD
Nov 2nd 2013, 02:58 PM
It seems the Holy Spirit is God here almost more than the others are lol

I finally see what the issue is now. But what I'm confused about, why did you keep questioning him about whether Jesus was God, when he already answered that, when you should have been questioning him about whether the Holy Spirit is God? after all, if one is trinitarian, the Holy Spirit and Jesus would not be the same person. So even by him acknowledging Jesus is God, that doesn't mean he would be acknowledging the Holy Spirit is God as well. But OTOH I can't help thinking, if he believes the Holy Spirit is a part of Jesus and the Father, which I seem to recall him saying in an earlier post, how then can that not make the Holy Spirit to be God then by default? I'll see if I can find that post where he said something to this affect. It might take a bit, since this thread has quite a few posts in it already, IOW a lost of posts to have to skim through.

Slug1
Nov 2nd 2013, 03:54 PM
The Holy Spirit is revealed in the scriptures as God:

Acts 5:1 But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession. 2 And he kept back part of the proceeds, his wife also being aware of it, and brought a certain part and laid it at the apostles’ feet. 3 But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land for yourself? 4 While it remained, was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own control? Why have you conceived this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.”

divaD
Nov 2nd 2013, 04:12 PM
The Holy Spirit is revealed in the scriptures as God:

Acts 5:1 But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession. 2 And he kept back part of the proceeds, his wife also being aware of it, and brought a certain part and laid it at the apostles’ feet. 3 But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land for yourself? 4 While it remained, was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own control? Why have you conceived this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.”


Very well done. Here it is saying it clear as can be, not even hidden to where it has to be deduced. It can't get any clearer than this I don't think. I had forgotten about that Scripture until you brought it up again.

Jade99
Nov 2nd 2013, 04:16 PM
In reading through much of this thread over the past couple days... if I say, "Trinity" isn't about DEFINING God and if you are looking for "words" that define the Trinity, you are not going to find help in the Bible.

But if you are looking at the word Trinity as a "description" of God and as the Godhead, the Bible describes or even better, REVEALS God as... The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. That this is declared clearly throughout the Bible and the word Trinity can be fully understood not by definition (reading the Bible as just words), but by description and by REVELATION through the reading of the Word of God in spirit of what is said, not HOW it is said. That understanding the Trinity is about: faithfully (in faith and belief) accepting HOW God is revealed to mankind.

Thanks Slug! This is exactly how I have understood it. I never even searched for the word trinity in the bible, but just read between the lines so to speak and then just studying with the guidance of the Holy Spirit for futher explanation and teaching. Then it was plan as day via scriptures, especially since the mark of the trinity is all over the bible. (Thank you Holy Spirit for you wisdom and teaching)

In regards to explaining it to someone else, I didn't know how to describe it without making it seem like God had multiple personalities. I should have just ask the Holy Spirit to help me to explain this better to people through him and not myself.

Slug1
Nov 2nd 2013, 05:40 PM
Very well done. Here it is saying it clear as can be, not even hidden to where it has to be deduced. It can't get any clearer than this I don't think. I had forgotten about that Scripture until you brought it up again.I put this (Acts 5:3-4) in the OP :P

divaD
Nov 2nd 2013, 06:20 PM
I put this (Acts 5:3-4) in the OP :P


I do recall reading the OP, but I guess I had already forgotten by this point what I had already read. At times my attention span is very narrow for some reason. Even around the house for example, I'll notice my wife is painting the railing on the steps when I take the dog out, and that the paint is clearly wet. 10 minutes later when I'm bringing the dog back in, what do you think I do? You guessed it. I place one of my hands directly onto the railing that I clearly saw wet paint on 10 minutes earlier. I just don't have focus like I used to. But I am almost 56 now. Wonder if that has anything to do with it? :)

Oregongrown
Nov 2nd 2013, 06:36 PM
One God composed of three: A Father, a Son, a Holy Spirit. Christians are also three in one: Does not every human have one body, yet within that body have a soul and a spirit? Is that not two in one? And when we have the Holy Spirit in us, is that not three in one?

I asked about this too as I know we are created in "their" image:

King James 2000 Bible
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth.


so yes, I see it this way as well Ewq:)

Oregongrown
Nov 2nd 2013, 06:41 PM
Very well done. Here it is saying it clear as can be, not even hidden to where it has to be deduced. It can't get any clearer than this I don't think. I had forgotten about that Scripture until you brought it up again.

Could someone explain how you get this is saying the Holy Spirit is God? I believe God is 3 parts, Father, Son, Holy Spirit, but each is individual, not God the Father. The God head is mentioned, and I don't think the HS or the Son are the God Head? Anyway, your verse is clear as mud for me because I don't see it saying the Holy Spirit is God. Of course I could be wrong, off to search some verses;)

Ok, nevermind, I found it, I mean I knew Jesus was God incarnate, and I knew/believed that He was fully God, and fully human. I was confused by your verse being proof of that though (and I'm not blaming you guys at all) in fact this was another good study for me. I found this and it spells it out well for me:


Calvary Chapel site (http://www.canyoncalvary.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=43&Itemid=55)
II. The Biblical Jesus is God Who Came to Earth in Human Form.
The Bible teaches that Jesus Christ was God Himself who came to earth in the flesh (I Timothy 3:16). The God of the Bible is one God who is triune. There are three distinct Personalities in the one Godhead: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. They are co-equal, co-existent, and co-eternal. The Biblical Jesus is identified as the “Son of God” (which means subordinate in relationship to the Father) and yet also “God the Son” (which means equal in nature to the Father). In John 1:1-2, the Bible proclaims that: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.” In verse 14, “the Word” is clearly identified as Jesus: “The Word became flesh and dwelt among us” (John 1:14).

I like this verse for telling me the Holy Spirit is God as well: Eph. 4:4-6 (http://biblia.com/bible/nasb95/Eph.%204.4-6), "There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all."

Curtis
Nov 2nd 2013, 07:26 PM
We see the trinity at work in mans salvation. Jesus, which was the Word of God that became flesh, God the Father was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself, and he was anointed with the Holy Spirit, and with power. Father, Son, Holy Spirit all working together for mans redemption.

The word of God is God's body...

Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
Col 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: :)

divaD
Nov 2nd 2013, 07:39 PM
Could someone explain how you get this is saying the Holy Spirit is God? I believe God is 3 parts, Father, Son, Holy Spirit, but each is individual, not God the Father. The God head is mentioned, and I don't think the HS or the Son are the God Head? Anyway, your verse is clear as mud for me because I don't see it saying the Holy Spirit is God. Of course I could be wrong, off to search some verses;)

Ok, nevermind, I found it, I mean I knew Jesus was God incarnate, and I knew/believed that He was fully God, and fully human. I was confused by your verse being proof of that though (and I'm not blaming you guys at all) in fact this was another good study for me. I found this and it spells it out well for me:


Calvary Chapel site (http://www.canyoncalvary.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=43&Itemid=55)
II. The Biblical Jesus is God Who Came to Earth in Human Form.
The Bible teaches that Jesus Christ was God Himself who came to earth in the flesh (I Timothy 3:16). The God of the Bible is one God who is triune. There are three distinct Personalities in the one Godhead: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. They are co-equal, co-existent, and co-eternal. The Biblical Jesus is identified as the “Son of God” (which means subordinate in relationship to the Father) and yet also “God the Son” (which means equal in nature to the Father). In John 1:1-2, the Bible proclaims that: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.” In verse 14, “the Word” is clearly identified as Jesus: “The Word became flesh and dwelt among us” (John 1:14).

I like this verse for telling me the Holy Spirit is God as well: Eph. 4:4-6 (http://biblia.com/bible/nasb95/Eph.%204.4-6), "There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all."


Even though you found your answer, I will still tell you what spelled it out for me, for the benefit of others, especially the fact Slug1 underlined those two things.

Acts 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?


This verse says that Ananias lied to the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost is neither the Father nor the Son.


Acts 5:4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.


This part says.. thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God. That then equals the Holy Ghost must be God then, since that was the only one mentioned that was being lied to.

ChangedByHim
Nov 2nd 2013, 08:24 PM
God is not "3 parts." Jesus is not "One-third of God." He is God. Let's settle this instead of continuing to use this false terminology for the Trinity.

Slug1
Nov 2nd 2013, 08:26 PM
Besides the already mentioned Genesis verse(s), can anyone bring up other scriptures from the OT that reveal God as a Trinity? Also, Revelation is GREAT for understanding God revealed as a Trinity.

I'll check back in later.

Dave... your post to Oregongrown is good and what I'd of explained as to how in the revelation of God as a Trinity, this is a verse that helps us understand the Holy Spirit as God :thumbsup:

But He's not a part of God as in 1/3, the Holy Spirit IS God.

Wait... in glancing through, who said a part of God?

edit:


God is not "3 parts." Jesus is not "One-third of God." He is God. Let's settle this instead of continuing to use this false terminology for the Trinity.

Hey, you posted while I was posting :lol:

ChangedByHim
Nov 2nd 2013, 08:31 PM
I'm briefer than you :lol:

Balabusha
Nov 2nd 2013, 10:43 PM
I think the best way to describe it is one "what" with 3 "who's" one God with 3 co-existant , co-eternal personhood.

I did write a short exegesis on the trinity a few pages earlier in this thread, the problem with looking for the Trinity in the Tanakh is that God had not revealed Himself fully until the first advent. For example Peter personally experienced the Trinity, he had heard the Father speak from heaven, walked and talked with the Son, and was indwelt with the Holy Spirit. This is inescapable in the New testament. The Trinity is revealed in the acts of God. Jesus is prophesized in the Tanakh.
Most who deny the Trinity like unitarians do this without understanding the difference of "being" and "person"
A unitarian sees one being and only one person, while Trinitarians see the one being with three persons.
It is very important to understand the difference of "being" and "person".
"Being" is what makes something what it is. Person is what makes someone WHO he is, so we have the One "what"(Being) and three "Who's" (the three Divine Persons). The Father has etrnally been the Father, The Son has etrnally been the Son, and the Holy Spirit has been etrnally been the Holy Spirit.
Every form of heresy starts with not understanding this aspect of God.
The doctrine of the Trinity is plain is scripture, it is just some can't shake off human presuppositions.
Without understanding the Trinity such teachings as the unpardonable sin will be evasive, some texts will not make sense in the Tanakh or New Testament.

shepherdsword
Nov 2nd 2013, 10:56 PM
Besides the already mentioned Genesis verse(s), can anyone bring up other scriptures from the OT that reveal God as a Trinity? Also, Revelation is GREAT for understanding God revealed as a Trinity.

I'll check back in later.

Dave... your post to Oregongrown is good and what I'd of explained as to how in the revelation of God as a Trinity, this is a verse that helps us understand the Holy Spirit as God :thumbsup:

But He's not a part of God as in 1/3, the Holy Spirit IS God.

Wait... in glancing through, who said a part of God?

edit:



Hey, you posted while I was posting :lol:

There is another verse in Genesis that while not teaching the Trinity does show a clear distinction between two persons that were called "YHVH"

Gen 19:24 Then the LORD (the one on earth with Abraham) rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven; (One in heaven and one on earth.

Isiah has an excellent verse that points to the all three in the Trinity:

The one speaking who is YHVH refers to both another YHVH and the Spirit as having sent him:

Isa 48:16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.

Slug1
Nov 2nd 2013, 11:25 PM
There is another verse in Genesis that although not teaching the Trinity does show a clear distinction between two persons that were called "YHVH"

Gen 19:24 Then the LORD (the one on earth with Abraham) rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven; (One in heaven and one on earth.

Isiah has an excellent verse that points to the all three in the Trinity:

The one speaking who is YHVH refers to both another YHVH and the Spirit as having sent him:

Isa 48:16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.
Isaiah was were I was going to go. I will actually have to add the one you posted to my study.

I was going to go with this scripture as God in heaven speaks to Isaiah:

Isaiah 44:6 “Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel,
And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
‘I am the First and I am the Last;
Besides Me there is no God.


This verse shows (reveals) much about God and also, who He is as the King of Israel, in context of scripture... Jesus. Redeemer, Jesus. Lord of Hosts, Jesus. I am the First and I am the Last, both first and last is Capitalized!! Besides "ME" there is no God.

First and Last, besides me... there is NO God :hmm:

Lets go to the Book of the Revelation. I'm just gonna post a bunch of verses and let them reveal what needs to be revealed about the Trinity and how God the Father is God, Jesus is God. I see that the Isaiah verse that Shepherdsword raised is how the Holy Spirit is God.

Rev 1: 8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,”[c] says the Lord,[d] “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.” (Jesus is speaking this)

v11 saying, “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last,” and,[f] “What you see, write in a book and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia:[g] to Ephesus, to Smyrna, to Pergamos, to Thyatira, to Sardis, to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.” (again, red lettering).

v17 And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me,[h] “Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last. 18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.

Rev 22:12 “And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”

v20 He who testifies to these things says, “Surely I am coming quickly.”

Let toss this in too... here we have this scripture from Hebrews (from the OP), God is speaking (starting in 1:5) but then, says this!!!!

Hebrews 1:8 But to the Son He says:

“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.

Oregongrown
Nov 2nd 2013, 11:33 PM
I think the best way to describe it is one "what" with 3 "who's" one God with 3 co-existant , co-eternal personhood.

I did write a short exegesis on the trinity a few pages earlier in this thread, the problem with looking for the Trinity in the Tanakh is that God had not revealed Himself fully until the first advent. For example Peter personally experienced the Trinity, he had heard the Father speak from heaven, walked and talked with the Son, and was indwelt with the Holy Spirit. This is inescapable in the New testament. The Trinity is revealed in the acts of God. Jesus is prophesized in the Tanakh.
Most who deny the Trinity like unitarians do this without understanding the difference of "being" and "person"
A unitarian sees one being and only one person, while Trinitarians see the one being with three persons.
It is very important to understand the difference of "being" and "person".
"Being" is what makes something what it is. Person is what makes someone WHO he is, so we have the One "what"(Being) and three "Who's" (the three Divine Persons). The Father has etrnally been the Father, The Son has etrnally been the Son, and the Holy Spirit has been etrnally been the Holy Spirit.
Every form of heresy starts with not understanding this aspect of God.
The doctrine of the Trinity is plain is scripture, it is just some can't shake off human presuppositions.
Without understanding the Trinity such teachings as the unpardonable sin will be evasive, some texts will not make sense in the Tanakh or New Testament.

This was a good read for me Karaite, I've never had a problem believing the trinity, but your explanation with the "being" and "person" was such a good way to explain it. I always think of God the Father, Jesus the Son, and Holy Spirit. God in 3 persons, think I learned that part from a song. So God is One, and in 3 persons. I think there are some that can't grasp this because they try to to compare God to man. I don't think any man/woman can grasp how majestic God is, His power (so far beyond "man-power"). I can't even put God in words when I try to describe Him.

ewq1938
Nov 3rd 2013, 12:01 AM
I finally see what the issue is now. But what I'm confused about, why did you keep questioning him about whether Jesus was God, when he already answered that, when you should have been questioning him about whether the Holy Spirit is God?

I asked that as well. Still no answer that I've seen as of yet, still more posts to read though.

shepherdsword
Nov 3rd 2013, 12:10 AM
I asked that as well. Still no answer that I've seen as of yet, still more posts to read though.

I get the feeling that he does agree that the Holy Spirit is God but that this is just another name for the Father since it was the Holy Spirit that caused Mary to conceive. While I see the reasoning behind this opinion I still firmly believe He is a distinct and separate person all on His own

ewq1938
Nov 3rd 2013, 12:23 AM
I also have an example:

Exo 3:4 And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.
Exo 3:5 And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.
Exo 3:6 Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.


Where God stands is holy ground and one should remove their shoes in respect of God and the holy ground.



Jos 5:13 And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries?
Jos 5:14 And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant?
Jos 5:15 And the captain of the LORD'S host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so.



The Captain of the host is clearly Divine because no angel would allow himself to be worshiped and, as evidenced by the burning bush, when God is present the ground is holy. Thus, "the captain of the host of the Lord" is God and divine but he is the Captain of the host of the Lord, not the Lord of hosts himself.


Malachi 3:1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.
Malachi 3:2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Here the Lord of hosts is clearly God the Father while Jesus is referred to "the Lord".


While "the LORD of hosts" must be the Father, the "captain of the LORD'S host" is lower and must be the one we would come to know as Jesus.
Christ is never called "the Lord of Hosts" but he is called "the captain of the host of the Lord".


2Th_1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,


Rev_19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.


Captain is the Hebrew word SAR


H8269
שׂר
śar
sar
From H8323; a head person (of any rank or class): - captain (that had rule), chief (captain), general, governor, keeper, lord, ([-task-]) master, prince (-ipal), ruler, steward.

Host is the Hebrew word TSEBAH


H6635
צבאה צבא
tsâbâ' tsebâ'âh
tsaw-baw', tseb-aw-aw'
From H6633; a mass of persons (or figurative things), especially regularly organized for war (an army); by implication a campaign, literally or figuratively (specifically hardship, worship): - appointed time, (+) army, (+) battle, company, host, service, soldiers, waiting upon, war (-fare).



Jesus is clearly the "head person" and "Captain" of the angelic army of heaven and for those that believe the one we now know as Jesus pre-existed before the human birth then we have what I believe is a clear reference to him as the captain of the Lord's host.


There is another verse in Genesis that while not teaching the Trinity does show a clear distinction between two persons that were called "YHVH"

Gen 19:24 Then the LORD (the one on earth with Abraham) rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven; (One in heaven and one on earth.

Isiah has an excellent verse that points to the all three in the Trinity:

The one speaking who is YHVH refers to both another YHVH and the Spirit as having sent him:

Isa 48:16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.

ewq1938
Nov 3rd 2013, 12:40 AM
I get the feeling that he does agree that the Holy Spirit is God but that this is just another name for the Father since it was the Holy Spirit that caused Mary to conceive. While I see the reasoning behind this opinion I still firmly believe He is a distinct and separate person all on His own


I'm just trying to understand what people believe in or not, I personally don't care if one believes in this or that but if a person believes the Father and the son and the HS are each God, then that is a Trinity according to the definition of the word. It's not the Orthodox definition as in Protestant but it's still a Trinty/trinity.

As for the HS, I believe that is merely the Father in a non-bodily form his own inner spirit which he can send forth and interact with people. Not a separate personality or person at all. The HS is the Father, is his actual spirit.

Am including a diagram I created.
12094

exitludos
Nov 4th 2013, 01:06 AM
Before you crash, ask him if he believes Jesus is God and be prepared to get a non answer.
Post 45

http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php/251639-An-example-of-the-Trinity?p=3065534#post3065534

Ten entries before you even thought to ask your question.

I wrote 'Jesus is God'. I pointed this out to you. I even quoted my own post, underlined it and bolded it, and you still think I gave you a 'non answer'?

ewq1938
Nov 4th 2013, 01:11 AM
Post 45

http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php/251639-An-example-of-the-Trinity?p=3065534#post3065534

Ten entries before you even thought to ask your question.

I wrote 'Jesus is God'. I pointed this out to you. I even quoted my own post, underlined it and bolded it, and you still think I gave you a 'non answer'?

Someone already corrected me on this days ago.

Next time just answer a question directly when asked.

Do you believe the Holy Spirit is God? I want an answer not a link or a big quoted block of text. A concise answer is what is appropriate, thank you.

exitludos
Nov 4th 2013, 01:58 AM
Someone already corrected me on this days ago.
I am catching up on the discussion, but I see this now. Sorry.



Do you believe the Holy Spirit is God? I want an answer not a link or a big quoted block of text. A concise answer is what is appropriate, thank you.
That depends on what you mean by your question.

If you mean, do I believe the holy spirit is 'third person of the trinity', then my answer is no.

If you mean, do I believe the holy spirit is a 'force' apart from God and Jesus, then my answer is no.

If you mean, do I believe the holy spirit is the spirit of God and of Jesus, then my answer is yes.

These distinctions are necessary, and I cannot answer the question without making them.

If it helps to use 'person' language, I can. God is a 'person' and Jesus is a 'person', but the holy spirit is not a 'person'. Part of my understanding for this, aside from reasons I listed earlier for why people do not think the bible teaches the trinity, is that the bible never demonstrates the holy spirit as the recipient of devotion or worship. It demonstrates that God receives devotion and worship. It demonstrates that Jesus receives devotion and worship, and that he is the one 'through' whom our worship to God is focused. (Several examples of this in Romans 1.8, 5.1, 5.11, 7.25, 16.27.) But it nowhere demonstrates this for the holy spirit.

Lying to the holy spirit is lying to God. Blaspheming the holy spirit is blaspheming God. But this does not make the holy spirit the third of three 'persons', it only means the holy spirit is God's spirit.

This does not mean I believe in the trinity doctrine, 'just not the orthodox definition'. It means I do not believe in the trinity doctrine, because the bible does not teach us to focus on God as 'three', which is what 'trinity', regardless of whether we are using a hyper-literal definition (trinity = three), or the historical and contemporary definition (trinity = three persons, coequal, coeternal, coexistent).

Instead, the bible teaches us to focus on God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Aviyah
Nov 4th 2013, 02:07 AM
“But when the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness about me."
(John 15:26)

It seems to me that the Holy Spirit is distinct from the Father (whom He comes from) and the Son (whom He bears witness to).

ewq1938
Nov 4th 2013, 02:12 AM
I am catching up on the discussion, but I see this now. Sorry.

No problem.





That depends on what you mean by your question.

If you mean, do I believe the holy spirit is 'third person of the trinity', then my answer is no.

If you mean, do I believe the holy spirit is a 'force' apart from God and Jesus, then my answer is no.

If you mean, do I believe the holy spirit is the spirit of God and of Jesus, then my answer is yes.

These distinctions are necessary, and I cannot answer the question without making them.


Ok, but is the Holy Spirit God, as in Divine?


If it helps to use 'person' language, I can. God is a 'person' and Jesus is a 'person', but the holy spirit is not a 'person'.

And that is also my position and is exactly what the bible presents.



Part of my understanding for this, aside from reasons I listed earlier for why people do not think the bible teaches the trinity, is that the bible never demonstrates the holy spirit as the recipient of devotion or worship.

I don't think that is a requirement of Godhood. What about statues of false gods that are worshiped? That makes them real Gods?

What of this?

Act 5:1 But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,
Act 5:2 And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet.
Act 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?

Here the Holy Ghost is lied to.

Act 5:4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.


And here the same lie is attributed towards God. So lying to the Holy Spirit is equal to lying to God, thus the Holy Spirit is God. Do you disagree with this?









Lying to the holy spirit is lying to God. Blaspheming the holy spirit is blaspheming God. But this does not make the holy spirit the third of three 'persons', it only means the holy spirit is God's spirit.

Forget "persons" We both don't agree with that. If God's son is God, why is not God's own spirit not also God? It's still Him, but in spiritual form. Does it not state in scripture that God is a spirit?


This does not mean I believe in the trinity doctrine, 'just not the orthodox definition'. It means I do not believe in the trinity doctrine, because the bible does not teach us to focus on God as 'three', which is what 'trinity', regardless of whether we are using a hyper-literal definition (trinity = three), or the historical and contemporary definition (trinity = three persons, coequal, coeternal, coexistent).

Yet if the Father is God, the Son is God, and the HS is God, there are three.




Instead, the bible teaches us to focus on God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Focusing on the Holy Spirit is just as valid especially since it is that Spirit as the Comforter that interacts with us the most.

I suspect that the term "Trinity" has had such a negative meaning to you that it may be hard to accept that God is three and yet one. Christ's bride is MANY yet also one in similar fashion. The body of Christ is of MANY parts, yet is one body.

We can even toss the term "Trinity" but please tell me you believe all three are God. Otherwise you are just as incorrect as those who change the Holy Spirit into the Holy Person.

exitludos
Nov 4th 2013, 03:37 AM
Ok, but is the Holy Spirit God, as in Divine?
It is hard to know what you mean by 'divine', but I feel that I already answered this, when I said 'If you mean, do I believe the holy spirit is the spirit of God and of Jesus, then my answer is yes.'


Yet if the Father is God, the Son is God, and the HS is God, there are three.
And then the arm of God, and the hand of God, and the finger of God, and the voice of God, and the heart of God, and the soul of God, and the glory of God, and the wisdom of God, and the love of God, and the wrath of God, and so on...

To me, saying 'the spirit of God is God' is equivalent to saying 'the arm of God is God', or 'the soul of God is God'. Which is to say, each is an inseparable part of who God is, but none should be numbered in order to define him. The holy spirit no more makes God three than his arm or heart or wisdom or wrath makes him four, five, six, seven.

Instead, there is one, which is the repeated testimony of the biblical authors. God the Father, expressly revealed in the Lord Jesus Christ, the son of God.

Slug1
Nov 4th 2013, 03:39 AM
It is hard to know what you mean by 'divine', but I feel that I already answered this, when I said 'If you mean, do I believe the holy spirit is the spirit of God and of Jesus, then my answer is yes.'


And then the arm of God, and the hand of God, and the finger of God, and the voice of God, and the heart of God, and the soul of God, and the glory of God, and the wisdom of God, and the love of God, and the wrath of God, and so on...

To me, saying 'the spirit of God is God' is equivalent to saying 'the arm of God is God', or 'the soul of God is God'. Which is to say, each is an inseparable part of who God is, but none should be numbered in order to define him. The holy spirit no more makes God three than his arm or heart or wisdom or wrath makes him four, five, six, seven.

Instead, there is one, which is the repeated testimony of the biblical authors. God the Father, expressly revealed in the Lord Jesus Christ, the son of God.So what do you make of the Acts 5:3-4 verses that points out that the Holy Spirit was lied to (v3) and that this is pointed out as lying to God (v4)? Not "just" the Spirit of God.

exitludos
Nov 4th 2013, 04:02 PM
In Psalm 73.21, the psalmist says his heart is grieved and his spirit embittered. This does not make his heart and his spirit two persons in addition to the psalmist, one grieved and the other embittered. It means he himself is grieved and embittered. To grieve the psalmist's spirit is to grieve the psalmist. Saying it the first way is a figure of speech, and cannot be used to build doctrine like 'human is a trinity'.

When we read that someone has blasphemed, lied to, or grieved God's spirit, it is a figure of speech that means God himself has been blasphemed, lied to, or grieved.

It is a gigantic leap to take 'you lied to the holy spirit, you lied to God' all the way to 'this proves God is trinity and no one can say otherwise'.

Slug1
Nov 4th 2013, 04:18 PM
In Psalm 73.21, the psalmist says his heart is grieved and his spirit embittered. This does not make his heart and his spirit two persons in addition to the psalmist, one grieved and the other embittered. It means he himself is grieved and embittered. To grieve the psalmist's spirit is to grieve the psalmist. Saying it the first way is a figure of speech, and cannot be used to build doctrine like 'human is a trinity'.

When we read that someone has blasphemed, lied to, or grieved God's spirit, it is a figure of speech that means God himself has been blasphemed, lied to, or grieved.

It is a gigantic leap to take 'you lied to the holy spirit, you lied to God' all the way to 'this proves God is trinity and no one can say otherwise'.Well... like I posted in the OP, all those three verses show us God, as the Father, God as the Son, and God, as the Holy Spirit. While you say this does not help in revealing God as Trinity, I say you looking for defining words... you will not find them in the Bible. The doctrine of the Trinity is about "accepting" how God has revealed Himself as God... the Father, the Son Jesus, and the Holy Spirit.

I even posted additional scriptures showing us God speaking about the Son and the Son is called... God.

So, it's your choice to faithfully believe what the Bible teaches in HOW God reveals Himself as Trinity, or not. Logic will not work in even attempting to try to find a definition of the word "Trinity" in the Bible. But in the spirit of the words what God speaks to us through His Word, faithfully when He says the Holy Spirit is lied to and that this lie is also God being lied to... this helps us IN faith to believe and actually understand that the Holy Spirit is God.

exitludos
Nov 4th 2013, 05:53 PM
You asked a question, insisting it was a 'serious' question. That you genuinely wanted to understand why people do not believe the bible teaches the trinity. But your responses consistently show me you are not actually reading what I wrote. Because you criticize things I did not say, and you ignore things I did say.

You led me to believe this was an honest question and that you wanted to understand the 'why'. I think it is clear you misled me. But worse still, you do not recognize that you were not being honest.

I am not interested in that kind of discussion, but I must apologize for contributing to it.

Jade99
Nov 4th 2013, 06:45 PM
Am including a diagram I created.
12094

I saw this exact same diagram on gotquestions.org. Are you sure you created that?

Slug1
Nov 4th 2013, 09:17 PM
I feel that this topic isn't about "understanding" because of the spiritual quality/nature about the Trinity and thus, beyond our limited understanding.

However, based on how God has revealed Himself and shows us throughout the Bible that God the father is God, God the Son is God, and God the Holy Spirit is God... it's truly a matter of belief, through faith and based on what God does reveal in scriptures, as matter of accepting (not "fully" understanding/defining) what He's revealed.

Slug1
Nov 4th 2013, 09:18 PM
You asked a question, insisting it was a 'serious' question. That you genuinely wanted to understand why people do not believe the bible teaches the trinity. But your responses consistently show me you are not actually reading what I wrote. Because you criticize things I did not say, and you ignore things I did say.

You led me to believe this was an honest question and that you wanted to understand the 'why'. I think it is clear you misled me. But worse still, you do not recognize that you were not being honest.

I am not interested in that kind of discussion, but I must apologize for contributing to it.I'm sorry you feel that way... this is a discussion, anyone can reply or respond to what they want and if this offends you, then you do have the right to step away from the thread.

ewq1938
Nov 4th 2013, 10:37 PM
Can we focus on the issue of the Trinity regarding the Holy Spirit being called a person? Certainly the Holy Spirit is treated in ways that you would treat a person, and there is a certain amount of personification towards the Spirit, however we all know the Spirit is not outright called a person, or a man, or has a body (other than one instance of a Dove)....so it it really crucial to accept the Holy Spirit as a person? Why not the Spirit OF a person? Isn't that really what the Holy Spirit is?

Instead of the "three persons of the Trinity" isn't the "Two persons and one Holy Spirit" more accurate?

Jade99
Nov 4th 2013, 11:56 PM
Can we focus on the issue of the Trinity regarding the Holy Spirit being called a person? Certainly the Holy Spirit is treated in ways that you would treat a person, and there is a certain amount of personification towards the Spirit, however we all know the Spirit is not outright called a person, or a man, or has a body (other than one instance of a Dove)....so it it really crucial to accept the Holy Spirit as a person? Why not the Spirit OF a person? Isn't that really what the Holy Spirit is?

Instead of the "three persons of the Trinity" isn't the "Two persons and one Holy Spirit" more accurate?

I see what you're saying, but if we were to say "two persons and one Holy Spirit" that would be inaccurate against God's word and more importantly, the trinity of the Godhead.

I think (and correct me nicely, lol...if one doesn't agree) that each member of the trinity has a specific ministry, if we were to really look at it.

God the Father - ministry mostly in the OT, preparing the arrival of the messiah prophecy that was througout the OT

God the Son (Jesus) - taking on human flesh and fulfilled the prophecy of his first coming and correcting what happened in the garden of Eden, dying on the cross for the sins of mankind, reconciling mankind back to God, conquering death, hell, and the grave and sin

God the Holy Spirit - ministry still current but started 10 days after Jesus acension to the Father in Heaven at the day of Pentecost (Acts 2); the promised Comforter that Jesus promised to send in John 14, who currently indwells in the hearts of all born again believers.

I think this is how my old pastor broke it down years ago and I could see how it the Trinity of God works together all over the bible and even today. So, it would be probably unfair to say 2 persons and the Holy Spirit, because the trinity of God is equally important as part of the Godhead.

(I'm hope I'm explaining this right, without it coming off as a multiple personality disorder. I'm sorry if it does)

ChangedByHim
Nov 5th 2013, 01:14 AM
Jade, I believe that your "ministry by dispensation" approach is off the mark. Designating the Father to the Old Testament is an example of this wrong thinking. What did Jesus say in John 14:6?

And to ewq, a person and a man aren't the same thing. When you read the attributes and temperments of the Holy Spirit, He is clearly a person (grieved, quenched, etc.).

ewq1938
Nov 5th 2013, 02:00 AM
Jade, I believe that your "ministry by dispensation" approach is off the mark. Designating the Father to the Old Testament is an example of this wrong thinking. What did Jesus say in John 14:6?

And to ewq, a person and a man aren't the same thing. When you read the attributes and temperments of the Holy Spirit, He is clearly a person (grieved, quenched, etc.).

That's not enough to be a person unfortunately. A person must possess body soul and spirit. Spirit alone is missing 2 out of 3.

A body alone is a body, not a person. A soul alone is a soul, not a person but a person's soul. A spirit alone is just a spirit, not a person but a person's spirit.

Scripture speaks of the Father's body soul and spirit, same for the Son. But the Holy Spirit is never said to have a soul, or a spirit of it's own, and only one brief time a body but of a bird not a person.


Conclusion, the Holy Spirit is a Spirit as written, not a person. It's just a silly mistake that someone 1,000's of year ago which continues to affect doctrine today. It's somewhat of a minor issue at first glance....UNTIL it causes divisions between Christians.

ChangedByHim
Nov 5th 2013, 02:17 AM
That's not enough to be a person unfortunately. A person must possess body soul and spirit. Spirit alone is missing 2 out of 3.


Really? Where in the world do you get that definition? What do you do with John 4:24? I think you are confusing a "human" with a "person."

ewq1938
Nov 5th 2013, 02:27 AM
Really? Where in the world do you get that definition? What do you do with John 4:24? I think you are confusing a "human" with a "person."


All humans are persons, not all persons are human. But you are not a person unless you possess body soul and spirit.

ChangedByHim
Nov 5th 2013, 03:01 AM
All humans are persons, not all persons are human. But you are not a person unless you possess body soul and spirit.

You repeated yourself. Could you discuss my questions? :)

ewq1938
Nov 5th 2013, 03:57 AM
Really?

Yes, really.


Where in the world do you get that definition?

Scripture.



What do you do with John 4:24?

It's speaking of God, the Holy Spirit. It's not speaking of the Son and the Father.



I think you are confusing a "human" with a "person."

I realize that but I disagree. See my earlier response before you insisted I reply to each question. I didn't originally answer the first two because they are silly, the third I should have but I mis-saw it and thought it was a reference to something unrelated, sorry.

Jade99
Nov 5th 2013, 06:45 PM
Jade, I believe that your "ministry by dispensation" approach is off the mark. Designating the Father to the Old Testament is an example of this wrong thinking. What did Jesus say in John 14:6?

And to ewq, a person and a man aren't the same thing. When you read the attributes and temperments of the Holy Spirit, He is clearly a person (grieved, quenched, etc.).

Thanks for the correction. I figure I may have been off. Oh well, that's what we're here to do to fellowship and teach each other.

Thank you Bro :)

Oregongrown
Nov 6th 2013, 04:00 PM
Thanks for the correction. I figure I may have been off. Oh well, that's what we're here to do to fellowship and teach each other.

Thank you Bro :)


If many of you aren't convicted, or at the very least, ashamed of yourselves when you see a post like this, by such a loving, meek, and humble follower of Christ, then there is something wrong. Jade you are beautiful, and shine the Light of Jesus for me, thank you, and thank God you are here, I so needed to see your words this a.m. may God bless you richly, denise, ysic:hug:

PS you cleaned up this thread with your loving kindness, darkness cannot exist in Light


PSS Oh, and for those of you who would like a verse, just so you know that is in the bible:

John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.[a] 2 He was in the beginning with God; 3 all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made. 4 In him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 [B]The light shines in the darkness,[c] and the darkness has not overcome it.

Oregongrown
Nov 6th 2013, 04:38 PM
The Trinity

God is a trinity of persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. The Father is not the same person as the Son; the Son is not the same person as the Holy Spirit; and the Holy Spirit is not the same person as Father. They are not three gods and not three beings. They are three distinct persons; yet, they are all the one God. Each has a will, can speak, can love, etc., and these are demonstrations of personhood. They are in absolute perfect harmony consisting of one substance. They are coeternal, coequal, and copowerful. If any one of the three were removed, there would be no God.

from: The Trinity made Simple (CHRISTIAN APOLOGETICS & RESEARCH MINISTRY)(simple to understand by the way, there is no way God is simple, so just to beat you guys to the punch that would love to take that one and run with it)

here's Trinity for Dummies (http://askpastorscott.blogspot.com/2008/09/trinity-for-dummies.html):

Before you get indignant, Dummies has become a highly respected resource in putting things simply, for those of us that aren't as edgee'cated:lol:

Oregongrown
Nov 6th 2013, 07:18 PM
There will always be heated debate by those who are passionate for truth. Paul and Barnabas disputed so strongly with each other they separated. While it is true we should let our words be seasoned with salt we are also commanded to contend earnestly for the faith.

Jud 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.


We are told why in the next verse:

Jud 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Granted...both sides will see the other as the once deceived but in no place are we commanded to be in unity over touchy feely concepts that are only half true. Eternity may be at stake for some. We need to face the fact that Satan has had 2,000 years to divide us and obfuscate the truth. We need to contend about these matters. However,we need to salt that with:

Eph 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

Learning how to do this is part of growing up. I think someone who takes their marbles and goes home because they don't see everyone singing "kumbaya" needs some maturing themselves. Just my thoughts on it.

There are also "heated" words by people who are not interested in Truth, but to simply prove how smart they are, and they make fools of themselves. I speak from experience. Those that love God, and want only to witness His Word with Love will be persecuted, the bible says christians will have much trouble. I am willing to stake my life on the fact that Paul and Barnabas never sounded like some on these forums. But this is not a christian forum, this is an open forum, anyone can join, and also, anyone can say they are anyone they like. Anyone can quote scripture, even satan.

What you said is good SW, and I agree, but here on these forums, we are not always viewing "christian" debate.

I hope and pray you don't leave Dani, there are so few people that can share biblical Truth with Grace included. I know you and I don't hang out in some of the other threads, maybe we aren't called to, I don't know. I will pray for you, as well as over this forum like I do each day.

ChangedByHim
Nov 6th 2013, 08:55 PM
I saw this exact same diagram on gotquestions.org. Are you sure you created that?

ewq, perhaps you could respond to this?

ewq1938
Nov 6th 2013, 10:43 PM
ewq, perhaps you could respond to this?


I created it on May 29th and posted in a thread that day.12100


This is what I believe the bible describes as the Trinity.

11814


That's the original thread, my original version of what someone else posted.

ChangedByHim
Nov 6th 2013, 11:34 PM
I created it on May 29th and posted in a thread that day.12100




That's the original thread, my original version of what someone else posted.

Cool. Is yours the one in gotquestions.org?

ewq1938
Nov 6th 2013, 11:40 PM
Cool. Is yours the one in gotquestions.org?

I don't know. I did a search but was unable to find it there. I didn't post there so perhaps someone here saved it then posted.

I created this to show my view of the Trinity.

jayne
Nov 7th 2013, 03:57 AM
I created this to show my view of the Trinity.

When you say created ...... what do you mean?

ewq1938
Nov 7th 2013, 04:04 AM
When you say created ...... what do you mean?

I took one I had seen, erased the original text then added my own text, then edited a second time to add the red wording.

I'm posting the original then my Version.1210412105

Does anyone else have any further questions?

jayne
Nov 7th 2013, 04:18 AM
I took one I had seen, erased the original text then added my own text, then edited a second time to add the red wording.

I'm posting the original then my Verzion.1210412105

Does anyone else have any further questions?

LOL!! No .. no more questions. I thought for a moment there that you were claiming to have created the Scutum Fidei. I was going to have to ask you if you were 800 years old. Whew!! ;)

ewq1938
Nov 7th 2013, 04:23 AM
LOL!! No .. no more questions. I thought for a moment there that you were claiming to have created the Scutum Fidei. I was going to have to ask you if you were 800 years old. Whew!! ;)



Ah, no not the diagram concept just the way I worded mine. :)

For all:

I earlier posted the blank version, go ahead and fill it in your own way if you like. Curious how each would complete it.

Nick
Nov 7th 2013, 07:41 AM
I try to keep the Trinity simple in explanation.

Jesus is God
The Father is God
The Holy Spirit is God

All three make up the Godhead. During Jesus's ministry God the Father was greater than God the Son. How do we know? Scripture tells us so.

ewq1938
Nov 7th 2013, 07:53 AM
I try to keep the Trinity simple in explanation.

Jesus is God
The Father is God
The Holy Spirit is God

All three make up the Godhead.

Yes.



During Jesus's ministry God the Father was greater than God the Son. How do we know? Scripture tells us so.

Only certain people highlight this....it's typically used to "shock" Pentecostal types...

Can you explain why this may be important?

Nick
Nov 7th 2013, 08:01 AM
Only certain people highlight this....it's typically used to "shock" Pentecostal types...

Can you explain why this may be important?

Jesus says that a few times. That's why it's important.

ewq1938
Nov 7th 2013, 08:16 AM
Jesus says that a few times. That's why it's important.

I already agree but you aren't answering why Jesus being lower than his Father in authority is important.

ChangedByHim
Nov 7th 2013, 12:16 PM
Jesus was only lower in terms of His humanity (which was voluntary - Phil. 2), not His deity.

ewq1938
Nov 7th 2013, 10:12 PM
Jesus was only lower in terms of His humanity (which was voluntary - Phil. 2), not His deity.

So you think Jesus has the same authority as his Father right now? Not speaking about Deity as they are both God/Divine/Deity, but do they have equal authority or is one higher in authority and does one submit to the will of the other?

Nick
Nov 8th 2013, 06:24 AM
I already agree but you aren't answering why Jesus being lower than his Father in authority is important.

Jesus incarnate is God in human form. Gen 1:26 is why that is important. Humans are the creation, not the Creator. We were spoken into existence. When God (the Word) became flesh He joined the human race (the creation). Apart from that Jesus states "even as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.” Does God the Father serve us or the other way around?

ewq1938
Nov 8th 2013, 06:38 AM
Jesus incarnate is God in human form. Gen 1:26 is why that is important. Humans are the creation, not the Creator. We were spoken into existence. When God (the Word) became flesh He joined the human race (the creation).

Christ was only human temporarily. Christ IS the creator.

Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Nick
Nov 8th 2013, 06:40 AM
Christ was only human temporarily. Christ IS the creator.

Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Then God said, “Let us make man[a] in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”

Explain "us" and "our". Who does "us" and "our" refer to?

ewq1938
Nov 8th 2013, 06:56 AM
Then God said, “Let us make man[a] in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”

Explain "us" and "our". Who does "us" and "our" refer to?

Not sure why this is relevant but it's the Father and the Son of course.

Nick
Nov 8th 2013, 07:00 AM
Not sure why this is relevant but it's the Father and the Son of course.

You and I have a tendency to talk in circles so I'll quit here. Have a a good night.

ewq1938
Nov 8th 2013, 07:03 AM
You and I have a tendency to talk in circles so I'll quit here. Have a a good night.

Not sure about that but you asked me a question and I answered it. What more do you want from me?

Slug1
Apr 1st 2014, 04:04 AM
While reading, this scripture was raised in support of God, 3 in 1.

2 Thess 3:5 Now may the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God and into the patience of Christ.

Brother Mark
Apr 1st 2014, 12:46 PM
It is any accident that we are warned about the love of the world and the things in the world? The lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh and the boastful pride of life? Is it possible that each of these sins can be committed against a person of the trinity?

We see three everywhere. The Godhead is clearly seen by what is in nature. Time is 3 in 1... past, present, and future, all make up time. Space is 3 dimensions yet 1 space. The universe is one (uni) but made up of time, space, and energy/matter.

The Real Milk Man
Apr 3rd 2014, 08:38 PM
Jesus said, "... I ascend to My Father and your Father, to MY GOD and YOUR GOD." -John{20:17, 10:27}

Brother Mark
Apr 3rd 2014, 08:48 PM
Jesus said, "... I ascend to My Father and your Father, to MY GOD and YOUR GOD." -John{20:17, 10:27}

Isa 9:6
6 For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us;
And the government will rest on His shoulders;
And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
NASU

Jesus name is also "Mighty God". Jesus himself said he was "I AM"

John 8:58
58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."
NASU

The Real Milk Man
Apr 3rd 2014, 09:02 PM
Jesus said, "... I ascend to My Father and your Father, to MY GOD and YOUR GOD." -John{20:17, 10:27}

I think most people will agree that all of Jesus' words (Acts 3:22-23) speak the truth. Is it then up to each of us what one does with those words??? --> Matthew 7:24-27 NIV


Peace to all.


:)

Brother Mark
Apr 3rd 2014, 09:11 PM
I think most people will agree that all of Jesus' words (Acts 3:22-23) speak the truth. Is it then up to each of us what one does with those words??? --> Matthew 7:24-27 NIV


Peace to all.


:)

Yep. Including the ones where he said he was "I AM" and where God himself said that Jesus name was "Mighty God".

yogosans
Apr 4th 2014, 12:09 AM
The Bible is full of examples of the Trinity. Paul implied it many times like in 2 Corinthianas 13:14.

To deny the Trinity is to deny the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob. The Jehovahs witnesses and Mormons worship a false Christ.

Bandit
Apr 4th 2014, 12:49 AM
In the Bible we read ...

Also, this one I'll post:

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.

Now... I've heard it said that the Bible does not clearly teach the doctrine of the Trinity :confused

Why do some say this?

I haven't read the replys, but I rather think the problem is that we humans can't fully grasp God, so He to a great extent doesn't bother to try to explain Himself. Just like at the burning bush where God says, "I Am What I Am". God pretty much tells Moses to accept that He is who He is, without explanation. So you want to understand God? Who do you think you are? Are you smarter than Moses? And what kind of answer did he get? Get a grip. God is beyond your understanding.

The Real Milk Man
Apr 8th 2014, 04:24 PM
Does Jesus, Himself, in His spoken words, recognize/acknowledge/designate who His God is????

Brother Mark
Apr 8th 2014, 04:34 PM
Does Jesus, Himself, in His spoken words, recognize/acknowledge/designate who His God is????

Does Jesus, Himself, in His spoke words, recognize/acknowledge/designate who Jesus Himself is?

John 13:13

13 Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am.
KJV

and

John 8:58

58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
KJV

Jesus is "I AM".

The Real Milk Man
Apr 8th 2014, 06:57 PM
Does Jesus, Himself, in His spoke words, recognize/acknowledge/designate who Jesus Himself is?

John 13:13

13 Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am.
KJV

and

John 8:58

58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
KJV

Jesus is "I AM".


Peace to you. :)

Yes, Jesus said I am.



Does Jesus, Himself, in His spoken words, recognize/acknowledge/designate who His God is????

Slug1
Apr 8th 2014, 07:09 PM
Peace to you. :)

Yes, Jesus said I am.



Does Jesus, Himself, in His spoken words, recognize/acknowledge/designate who His God is????If this is a challenge, then Brother Mark already accepted and answered with the Word of God. If you want to counter, then also use the Word of God to show us if your intent is to show us who Jesus' God is.

Jesus "is" God

The Real Milk Man
Apr 8th 2014, 07:17 PM
If this is a challenge, then Brother Mark already accepted and answered with the Word of God. If you want to counter, then also use the Word of God to show us if your intent is to show us who Jesus' God is.

Jesus "is" God



Peace to you. :)

Jesus' own words, in post #144.

Slug1
Apr 8th 2014, 09:24 PM
Peace to you. :)

Jesus' own words, in post #144.The John 20:17 scripture is for us to understand JUST who God is. While Jesus was in the flesh He also called other men "brothers" and we all know, He has no brothers EXCEPT as "mankind" has brothers and sisters in Christ, ONCE a person accepts Christ and is a PART of the Body. Jesus is allowing us to understand that God is our Father and God is our God once we are born into the Body of Christ.

Is this the point you are trying to make?

Also... John 10:27, how does this apply in hearing God?

Curtis
Apr 8th 2014, 09:49 PM
I haven't read the replys, but I rather think the problem is that we humans can't fully grasp God, so He to a great extent doesn't bother to try to explain Himself. Just like at the burning bush where God says, "I Am What I Am". God pretty much tells Moses to accept that He is who He is, without explanation. So you want to understand God? Who do you think you are? Are you smarter than Moses? And what kind of answer did he get? Get a grip. God is beyond your understanding.

I hear this all the time. Would God create man in his own image, and likeness without the ability to know his maker fully?

Eph 3:14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
Eph 3:15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,
Eph 3:16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
Eph 3:17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
Eph 3:18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
Eph 3:19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fullness of God.

Once a man becomes rooted and grounded in love (God) he can understand the breadth, length, depth, and height of the love (God) of Christ that is beyond mere human natural, carnal mind, that is beyond knowledge. He can be filled with all the fullness of God.
Those who do not believe this will never experience it as it takes faith and the Word of God to get it.

The Real Milk Man
Apr 8th 2014, 10:56 PM
The John 20:17 scripture is for us to understand JUST who God is. While Jesus was in the flesh He also called other men "brothers" and we all know, He has no brothers EXCEPT as "mankind" has brothers and sisters in Christ, ONCE a person accepts Christ and is a PART of the Body. Jesus is allowing us to understand that God is our Father and God is our God once we are born into the Body of Christ.

Is this the point you are trying to make?

Also... John 10:27, how does this apply in hearing God?


Peace to you. :)


We're kinda close.






Does Jesus, Himself, in His spoken words, recognize/acknowledge/designate who His God is????

To me, the simplicity of Jesus own words in John 20:17, make it clear to me, that yes Jesus does have one He recognizes/acknowledges/designates as His God.

John 20:17, Jesus said, " ..... I ascend to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.”




Got to go away for awhile.

Bandit
Apr 9th 2014, 08:37 PM
Does Jesus, Himself, in His spoken words, recognize/acknowledge/designate who His God is????

Yep. He is God.


Peace to you. :)

Yes, Jesus said I am.



Does Jesus, Himself, in His spoken words, recognize/acknowledge/designate who His God is????

Yep. I Am is God.

Bandit
Apr 9th 2014, 08:43 PM
I haven't read the replys, but I rather think the problem is that we humans can't fully grasp God, so He to a great extent doesn't bother to try to explain Himself. Just like at the burning bush where God says, "I Am What I Am". God pretty much tells Moses to accept that He is who He is, without explanation. So you want to understand God? Who do you think you are? Are you smarter than Moses? And what kind of answer did he get? Get a grip. God is beyond your understanding.


I hear this all the time. Would God create man in his own image, and likeness without the ability to know his maker fully?

Eph 3:14-19 ...

Once a man becomes rooted and grounded in love (God) he can understand the breadth, length, depth, and height of the love (God) of Christ that is beyond mere human natural, carnal mind, that is beyond knowledge. He can be filled with all the fullness of God.
Those who do not believe this will never experience it as it takes faith and the Word of God to get it.

God is INFINITE, man in finite; therefore man can never fully understand God. So why then did God give up His full glory and come in the form of a man? If we could understand Him in His fullness, then there would be no need for Him to do this.

Curtis
Apr 11th 2014, 03:16 AM
God is INFINITE, man in finite; therefore man can never fully understand God. So why then did God give up His full glory and come in the form of a man? If we could understand Him in His fullness, then there would be no need for Him to do this.

Man became spiritually dead because of sin. Meaning the ability to know God was gone. The Lord had to restore man's spirit to life before he can know God. If the Lord only restored man back to his formal state, as soon as man was restored and then sin again he would be right back were he was started. God had to do something so man could not, should we say "kill himself" Jesus conquered the world, death, and sin. That exact spirit that was in him that did all these things is now living in us. "It is no longer I that liveth, but Christ liveth in me...." Not only do we have the same spirit that was in Jesus in us, but we also have the mind of Christ. Last time I checked Jesus is God, so we have the mind of God in us. How can we not know all there is about him if we have his mind. No man knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of man that is in him, even so no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. We have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is of God so we might knows the thoughts of God.

The Real Milk Man
Apr 11th 2014, 06:17 PM
Acts 3:22-23, For Moses truly said to the fathers, ‘The LORD your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear in all things, whatever He says to you. And it shall be that every soul who will not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.’

Phoenix
Apr 12th 2014, 01:30 PM
Who is the Ancient of Days in Daniel 7:9?

Who is seated on the Throne in Isaiah 6:5?

Has anyone seen God at any time?

Brother Mark
Apr 12th 2014, 01:35 PM
Acts 3:22-23, For Moses truly said to the fathers, ‘The LORD your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear in all things, whatever He says to you. And it shall be that every soul who will not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.’

Isaiah called Jesus "Mighty God", "Eternal Father"

Isa 9:6
6 For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us;
And the government will rest on His shoulders;
And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
NASU

Phoenix
Apr 12th 2014, 07:40 PM
Nehemiah 9:6 “You are the Lord, you alone. You have made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth and all that is on it, the seas and all that is in them; and you preserve all of them; and the host of heaven worships you.

Jesus: Creator of all that is seen and unseen.

Slug1
Apr 18th 2014, 12:52 AM
Man in made up of a "triune" being.

Flesh, soul, spirit but all ONE being.

Slug 1 flesh, Slug1 soul, Slug1 spirit (3)... but only one Slug1 (1).

Are we in any likeness of God... who is 3 in 1?

Slug1
Apr 19th 2014, 01:34 AM
Gen 1:26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”

Let "Us"?