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divaD
Nov 1st 2013, 03:19 AM
This thread was inspired by a member's signature that I noticed, namely meaning Oregongrown. But not that I haven't read these Scriptures more times than I can recall, but to try and get to the main point of what Paul was saying in that passage. I thought we could try taking a closer look at it from a different angle, since the greatest majority of the time when this passage is discussed, it's usually centered around verse 1 mainly, in regards to the tongues of angels..


1 Corinthians 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

The questions are, what does it literally mean to be nothing, and that it profiteth me nothing, even if I were to do all the things mentioned above, except not have charity when I do them? Does this equate to one losing their salvation then? Speaking in general, I mean, can I be nothing and that it profiteth me nothing, and still end up saved when it is over?

exitludos
Nov 1st 2013, 03:55 AM
To clarify, the Greek word for 'charity' is αγαπην... agape love. So Paul is not talking about charity, as in giving money or what-have-you... he is talking about love.


If you do not have love, then it does not matter if you can speak in other languages, it does not matter if you can prophesy, it does not matter how right you are in a debate, it does not matter how perfect your theology is, it does not matter if you honestly believe you can make a mountain topple just by telling it to, it does not matter if you give away all your possessions to pay for a soup kitchen, it does not matter if you get beat up for your beliefs...

If you do not have love, none of it matters. Why?

Because

Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love. (1 John 4.8)

Whoever does not love abides in death. (1 John 3.14)

TBM 11
Nov 1st 2013, 04:15 AM
Jesus commands us to love others as He hath loved us (John 13:34). It is a goal for us to strive for, and we get better at it as we are led by the Spirit after being saved. I believe these passages are telling us people can have talents and gifts, but if they don't use them from a heart of love that only comes from God, it means nothing to God. People can be fake and pretend to care through their deeds and maybe fool some folks, but God knows the heart of men, and these things done without a spirit of love mean nothing to Him. Though it may impress man, God sees the heart and the intention of it. A person such as this is not saved to begin with so they can't lose what they don't already have.

divaD
Nov 1st 2013, 04:23 AM
To clarify, the Greek word for 'charity' is αγαπην... agape love. So Paul is not talking about charity, as in giving money or what-have-you... he is talking about love.

I do understand that and fully agree. That is what I understand charity to mean there as well.





Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love. (1 John 4.8)

Whoever does not love abides in death. (1 John 3.14)

Hmmm...very interesting the way you connected all the dots like that and answered one of my questions. I guess that's what usually happens when one uses Scripture to interpret Scripture. :)

divaD
Nov 1st 2013, 04:34 AM
Jesus commands us to love others as He hath loved us (John 13:34). It is a goal for us to strive for, and we get better at it as we are led by the Spirit after being saved. I believe these passages are telling us people can have talents and gifts, but if they don't use them from a heart of love that only comes from God, it means nothing to God. People can be fake and pretend to care through their deeds and maybe fool some folks, but God knows the heart of men, and these things done without a spirit of love mean nothing to Him. Though it may impress man, God sees the heart and the intention of it. A person such as this is not saved to begin with so they can't lose what they don't already have.

If they're not saved to begin with, and since at least 3 or 4 spiritual gifts are listed in that passage mentioned, plus having mountain moving faith, how did they acquire any of that without ever being saved? Would God actually give these gifts to unsaved folks? And since I don't believe OSAS is Biblical, I can then see them being saved but losing their salvation based on lacking any form of real love for anyone when doing any of these things. Take giving for example. One might do that to simply get a tax write off, which has nothing much to do with giving to someone because of your genuine love for them.

TBM 11
Nov 1st 2013, 04:35 AM
Jesus commands us to love others as He hath loved us (John 13:34). It is a goal for us to strive for, and we get better at it as we are led by the Spirit after being saved. I believe these passages are telling us people can have talents and gifts, but if they don't use them from a heart of love that only comes from God, it means nothing to God. People can be fake and pretend to care through their deeds and maybe fool some folks, but God knows the heart of men, and these things done without a spirit of love mean nothing to Him. Though it may impress man, God sees the heart and the intention of it. A person such as this is not saved to begin with so they can't lose what they don't already have.

After further study and thought, it may be that he is describing a person that is saved (look back to the end of chapter 12), but showing us just how imperfect our love is. We think we are doing things out of love but the perfect kind of love is described further in the chapter.

TBM 11
Nov 1st 2013, 04:41 AM
If they're not saved to begin with, and since at least 3 or 4 spiritual gifts are listed in that passage mentioned, plus having mountain moving faith, how did they acquire any of that without ever being saved? Would God actually give these gifts to unsaved folks? And since I don't believe OSAS is Biblical, I can then see them being saved but losing their salvation based on lacking any form of real love for anyone when doing any of these things. Take giving for example. One might do that to simply get a tax write off, which has nothing much to do with giving to someone because of your genuine love for them.


I think you are correct. They are saved, but Paul is showing us how immature our love is. And how much more important that is to achieve than the gifts. It is an interesting study, thanks for the post!

divaD
Nov 1st 2013, 04:42 AM
After further study and thought, it may be that he is describing a person that is saved (look back to the end of chapter 12), but showing us just how imperfect our love is. We think we are doing things out of love but the perfect kind of love is described further in the chapter.

That makes sense, now that you mention it. But what if one never gets to that point?

Curtis
Nov 1st 2013, 06:40 AM
1Co 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not God, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
1Co 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not God, I am nothing.
1Co 13:3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not God, it profiteth me nothing.

I changed every place where it said Charity (Love) to say God, because God is Love.(1 John 4:8)

though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not God. You can not speak with the tongues of men or of angels unless you first have God (Love). It is the Holy Spirit that gives us utterance.(Acts 2:4)

though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; You can not prophecy or understand any mysteries or knowledge without first having God (Love) (Prov 2:6) (1 Cor 12:9)

though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not God (Love) You can not have faith unless you first have God (Love) Faith is a gift from God (Love) Faith works by Love (Gal 5:6)

though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not God (Love) None of these things can a man do unless he see's something much better than what he has now. (Heb 11:13)

All of these can only be true if the person experiencing these things has God (Love). Love is the environment, the context in which these things can happen. The man who says he has these with out having God (love) is a liar!!!

This person that is being referred to here is not a Christian at all. Why?

2Cor 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died;

Everything we do as a true Christian will always be motivated by love. It is what controls us to do the things we do. This is why we are here in this forum so as to share what we know with others!!!! :)

As Jesus said, "......with out me you can do nothing." (John 15:5)

TBM 11
Nov 1st 2013, 01:13 PM
That makes sense, now that you mention it. But what if one never gets to that point?

While it would only be possible through the Holy Spirit, I doubt many, if any have reached that kind of love. If one ever reached it, he would also have to sustain it. I think it is just like our battle with sin. It's been made possible through the Spirit, but we can really just hope to get as close as we can to it. I don't think we could achieve one without first achieving the other.

clarkthompson
Nov 1st 2013, 10:53 PM
Works of faith are done by following the Lord and are always done out of love if there is no love then the work is not done in following God but doing what we see.

chad
Nov 3rd 2013, 01:30 AM
IMO, what Paul is trying to illustrate is that Love is more important than gifts and knowledge. The two most important commandments involve love. The first is to Love the Lord your God with all your soul, mind and strength. The Second is to love you neighbour as yourself (Mark 12:28-31). Love is the fulfilment of the law (Rom 13:9-10).



This thread was inspired by a member's signature that I noticed, namely meaning Oregongrown. But not that I haven't read these Scriptures more times than I can recall, but to try and get to the main point of what Paul was saying in that passage. I thought we could try taking a closer look at it from a different angle, since the greatest majority of the time when this passage is discussed, it's usually centered around verse 1 mainly, in regards to the tongues of angels..


1 Corinthians 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

The questions are, what does it literally mean to be nothing, and that it profiteth me nothing, even if I were to do all the things mentioned above, except not have charity when I do them? Does this equate to one losing their salvation then? Speaking in general, I mean, can I be nothing and that it profiteth me nothing, and still end up saved when it is over?

episkopos
Nov 3rd 2013, 01:45 AM
Jesus commands us to love others as He hath loved us (John 13:34). It is a goal for us to strive for, and we get better at it as we are led by the Spirit after being saved. I believe these passages are telling us people can have talents and gifts, but if they don't use them from a heart of love that only comes from God, it means nothing to God. People can be fake and pretend to care through their deeds and maybe fool some folks, but God knows the heart of men, and these things done without a spirit of love mean nothing to Him. Though it may impress man, God sees the heart and the intention of it. A person such as this is not saved to begin with so they can't lose what they don't already have.

Don't turn this thread into another OSAS thread. Paul was talking of himself...so it means it is very possible to not have enough charity to satisfy the salvation requirement AFTER one becomes a "believer". It is an exhortation to the church not a nose snubbing of non-Christians. Stop obfuscating the truth.

Scooby_Snacks
Nov 3rd 2013, 01:57 AM
Sometimes when I read the Word, I see something that seems impossible, like the evidences of Godly love described in scripture. (It never boasts, it always hopes etc.)

I believe that when I ask God for something from the right state of heart, I receive. That means that if I see something like a command to love, I can ask Him to help me do what He commands, and He will take that request and make a way for it to become a part of my character.

What does the Holy Spirit lead others to pray for? I am curious, because admonishments lead me to ask for Him to help me -- that I might be willing and able to do what He asks.

As far as your question DivaD--- To me an earthly reward (or something that gives me glory) is unprofitable because it will not be a treasure laid up in heaven later.