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TBM 11
Nov 7th 2013, 12:22 PM
A BORN AGAIN CHRISTIAN IS,

1. Saved By Grace Through Faith:
Eph. 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Romans 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Romans 4:4-5 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

2. Not Under The Law:
Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
Romans 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

IF WE ARE NOT SAVED BY OUR WORKS, DO THEY KEEP US SAVED AFTER WE ARE SAVED? IF WE ARE NOT SAVED BY OUR OBEDIENCE, DOES KEEPING THE LAW KEEP US SAVED? NO, WHEN WE ARE SAVED, IT IS FOR ETERNITY, WHICH STARTS AT THE MOMENT OF SALVATION!!!

1. Romans 8:38-39
2. John 10:27-28
3. John 6:37-40
4. John 14:16
5. John 5:24
5. John 11:25-27
6. John 6:27-29
7. 1Peter 3:18
8. Psalm 37:23-25
9. Eph. 4:30
10. Eph. 1:13


God can't lie. He doesn't contradict himself. The verses that lead people to think salvation can be lost for any other reason than to reject what has saved them in the first place, which is faith in the sacrifice of Jesus for our sins, are misinterpreted scriptures that they have heard all their lives because of "religion" being passed around like a beach ball.

When we come across scripture that seems to teach one can lose salvation, we have to remember all of the clear verses such as the ones I have presented above override a vague verse that is easily interpreted in different ways.

To know that the bible teaches we can't lose salvation doesn't give us license to sin. There is a price that is paid in this physical realm (relationships, money, jail). Also in the spiritual realm (rewards, 1Cor. 3:10-15)

To know that our salvation is secure, but to walk around afraid that we could lose it has to grieve God. He sent His son to pay the price so we could be saved, and have the joy that comes from the assurances He has given us, now we don't want to claim it?

Love and blessings to all.

SavedByGraceByFait
Nov 7th 2013, 12:31 PM
A BORN AGAIN CHRISTIAN IS,

1. Saved By Grace Through Faith:
Eph. 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Romans 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Romans 4:4-5 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

2. Not Under The Law:
Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
Romans 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

IF WE ARE NOT SAVED BY OUR WORKS, DO THEY KEEP US SAVED AFTER WE ARE SAVED? IF WE ARE NOT SAVED BY OUR OBEDIENCE, DOES KEEPING THE LAW KEEP US SAVED? NO, WHEN WE ARE SAVED, IT IS FOR ETERNITY, WHICH STARTS AT THE MOMENT OF SALVATION!!!

1. Romans 8:38-39
2. John 10:27-28
3. John 6:37-40
4. John 14:16
5. John 5:24
5. John 11:25-27
6. John 6:27-29
7. 1Peter 3:18
8. Psalm 37:23-25
9. Eph. 4:30
10. Eph. 1:13


God can't lie. He doesn't contradict himself. The verses that lead people to think salvation can be lost for any other reason than to reject what has saved them in the first place, which is faith in the sacrifice of Jesus for our sins, are misinterpreted scriptures that they have heard all their lives because of "religion" being passed around like a beach ball.

When we come across scripture that seems to teach one can lose salvation, we have to remember all of the clear verses such as the ones I have presented above override a vague verse that is easily interpreted in different ways.

To know that the bible teaches we can't lose salvation doesn't give us license to sin. There is a price that is paid in this physical realm (relationships, money, jail). Also in the spiritual realm (rewards, 1Cor. 3:10-15)

To know that our salvation is secure, but to walk around afraid that we could lose it has to grieve God. He sent His son to pay the price so we could be saved, and have the joy that comes from the assurances He has given us, now we don't want to claim it?

Love and blessings to all.

Amen.

Praise to God our Father and to our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ!

ewq1938
Nov 9th 2013, 05:29 AM
God can't lie. He doesn't contradict himself. The verses that lead people to think salvation can be lost for [B]any other reason than to reject what has saved them in the first place, which is faith in the sacrifice of Jesus for our sins, are misinterpreted scriptures that they have heard all their lives because of "religion" being passed around like a beach ball.


Even your own words prove salvation can be lost under certain circumstances. The highlighted is one way to lose salvation but it is not the only one.

sooninzion
Nov 9th 2013, 06:14 AM
Consider a few things while making your salvation and election sure and certain.

2 Peter 1:10 Therefore my brothers and sisters; MAKE EVERY EFFORT to confirm your CALLING and ELECTION. For if you do these two things you will never stumble.

Jude 1:15 Though you already know all these; I want to remind you that the LORD at one time delivered his people out of Egypt and then destroyed those who did not BELIEVE.

Now don't tell me that If the Lord has actually destroyed someone in his anger; according to some malicious teachings of a few religious scholars; that REBEL still stands a chance to remain saved bcos he had once been delivered. HIGHLY UNLIKELY.

The Lord employs extreme punishments for his children but does not destroy the righteous and the obedient. All that qualifies within the ambit of punishments are still tenable while SALVATION is intact. However ELECTION is a far superior gift than mere SALVATION when compared.

Salvation precedes OBEDIENCE. Obedience succeeds salvation. Salvation is a momentary gift. It comes in a moment of BELIEF. However OBEDIENCE is a way of LIFE. That is why EFFORT is required to hold fast. Salvation itself is a gift and reward within. You can keep the Gift or throw it away... depends how you have valued it. God does not take it away.

REWARDS are only for OBEDIENCE. GREATER is he who has heard all the GOSPEL and OBEYED all of them. REWARDS vary according to our obedience. If one believer wants to stop his walk where he was saved; that is his choice. He has refused to grow further. Because he had other priorities in his worldly life.

In my opinion, Both arguments; FOR and AGAINST permanent salvation, are misleading. It will never produce any good fruit while favouring or opposing. Beware of losing even what you have!

thank you

SavedByGraceByFait
Nov 9th 2013, 01:09 PM
Even your own words prove salvation can be lost under certain circumstances. The highlighted is one way to lose salvation but it is not the only one.

For once saved only saved to apply, a person has to have been saved at one time.

There are 2 types of people who deny OSAS.

There are some who never have been saved. Since they believe in a works based or merit based salvation they are not yet saved. Their faith does not count.

Romans 4:5
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

The other type of person who denies OSAS is saved but had been beguiled into believing a different gospel since their salvation. Of course they are still saved forever. Paul warned about this.

2 Corinthians 11:1-4
1 Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me.
2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

Vakeros
Nov 9th 2013, 01:24 PM
I think the point missed here is that we are saved by faith, but must also live by faith.
We enter the narrow gate, but also walk the narrow path. Entering the gate alone is insufficient.
As has already been posted, if we reject the very thing that saved us then we lose our salvation.
Hebrews 6:4-6 paints a very clear picture of this. If we accept that Jesus saved us, but then fail to continue to live by faith we no longer have that sacrifice and our faith is no longer in Him, but in a teaching. The RCC have a similar problem in confusing the church with living by faith.

Another passage highlights the fact that if we disown God, then He will disown us. Also we have 1 John 4:19 - 21. This teaches clearly we must love our brother, yet this process won't even start until we repent, so it is an ongoing process and not a one off in the past event.
There is no Once Saved Always Saved, but there is LbF - Live by Faith.

episkopos
Nov 9th 2013, 01:42 PM
...saved from which other verses of the bible?

SavedByGraceByFait
Nov 9th 2013, 01:59 PM
...saved from which other verses of the bible?

Obviously the saved are saved and the unsaved are not saved.

episkopos
Nov 9th 2013, 02:01 PM
Obviously the saved are saved and the unsaved are not saved.


And just who decides that again? The overconfident claim to be saved and the underconfident claim to be unprofitable servants. But this is about what people THINK.... not the truth.

Citing verses and claiming a legalistic salvation from them simply reveals the overconfident nature of the sinner.

SavedByGraceByFait
Nov 9th 2013, 03:15 PM
And just who decides that again? The overconfident claim to be saved and the underconfident claim to be unprofitable servants. But this is about what people THINK.... not the truth.

Citing verses and claiming a legalistic salvation from them simply reveals the overconfident nature of the sinner.

Jesus Christ already declared who is saved. Those that forsake their own merit and trust in the shed blood of Jesus Christ as pyament for their sins. Confidence in Jesus Christ, who He is, what He did and what He promised is everlasting life, Confidence in your own self is not.

John 6:47
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

episkopos
Nov 9th 2013, 04:04 PM
Obviously the saved are saved and the unsaved are not saved.

But the saved saved saved saved saved saved saved. Are you salivating yet? If you took out the word "saved" I think most churches would be empty.

BTW the proper pronunciation is "sigh-ee-ve-dah." Think reverend Lovejoy on the Simpsons... ;)

episkopos
Nov 9th 2013, 04:10 PM
Jesus Christ already declared who is saved.


Do you access to the book of life? Could you copy paste the page where you are written in? Of course your real name will remain confidential....but it would be interesting to many here to see even a copy of the real book of life. The Smithsonian institute would pay you for it. :)



Those that forsake their own merit and trust in the shed blood of Jesus Christ as pyament for their sins. Confidence in Jesus Christ, who He is, what He did and what He promised is everlasting life, Confidence in your own self is not.

I like your accent in pyament...just like "sigh-ee-ve-dah". You're getting it!

Anybody can claim Jesus died instead of them. The prisons are full of "sigh-eeve-dah" people! Isn't America saved?


John 6:47
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

Sounds simple enough. God must have got tired of His own commandments. Maybe He just wants to have fun like us?

SavedByGraceByFait
Nov 9th 2013, 04:37 PM
Do you access to the book of life? Could you copy paste the page where you are written in? Of course your real name will remain confidential....but it would be interesting to many here to see even a copy of the real book of life. The Smithsonian institute would pay you for it. :)




I like your accent in pyament...just like "sigh-ee-ve-dah". You're getting it!

Anybody can claim Jesus died instead of them. The prisons are full of "sigh-eeve-dah" people! Isn't America saved?


Sounds simple enough. God must have got tired of His own commandments. Maybe He just wants to have fun like us?

There are some who just believe God and some who do not.

John 6:47
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

episkopos
Nov 9th 2013, 04:45 PM
There are some who just believe God and some who do not.

John 6:47
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

There are some who delude themselves and other who do not.

SavedByGraceByFait
Nov 9th 2013, 06:03 PM
There are some who delude themselves and other who do not.

There are some who delude themselves. On that we are in agreement.

I am already saved though.

John 3:14-18
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Neanias
Nov 9th 2013, 06:31 PM
We are no longer under the old law, that is, the old covenant. No longer do we need priests, animal sacrifices, and the like, because we have a better priest and a better covenant. This is what is spoken of by the writers of the New Testament, however men twist this to say they need not obey God's commands. But John says that if we love him, we obey him.

We are saved by grace through faith. That is, through faith we have access to his grace, his power and life, so that we can walk as he walked and obey him. The true gospel, if we enter what it speaks of, allows us to obey the commandments, do the works of the Father, and please Him.

Many have twisted the gospel to attribute to themselves the justification and reward of such a walk, while remaining in their carnal lives. Men have come to love their lives more than the truth, and so they have loved fables.

But the Kingdom is in power, not in word. We are called to be translated in the Kingdom and walk by the life available there.

Vakeros
Nov 9th 2013, 06:33 PM
There are some who just believe God and some who do not.
John 6:47
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
I think this is a useful verse - but I want you to note something. This action of believing is NOT a once in a lifetime action. It is a continuous action. He who believes - this is something started in the past and continues into the present. We are called to live in a state of believing. For OSAS to be true then the verse should read:
"He that believed in me has everlasting life."
However Jesus didn't say that. It is a present tense as a state of being. As soon as you recognise that, then you see this occurring in all the verses, then you realise the truth is to LbF.

episkopos
Nov 9th 2013, 06:34 PM
We are no longer under the old law, that is, the old covenant. No longer do we need priests, animal sacrifices, and the like, because we have a better priest and a better covenant. This is what is spoken of by the writers of the New Testament, however men twist this to say they need not obey God's commands. But John says that if we love him, we obey him.

We are saved by grace through faith. That is, through faith we have access to his grace, his power and life, so that we can walk as he walked and obey him. The true gospel, if we enter what it speaks of, allows us to obey the commandments, do the works of the Father, and please Him.

Many have twisted the gospel to attribute to themselves the justification and reward of such a walk, while remaining in their carnal lives. Men have come to love their lives more than the truth, and so they have loved fables.

But the Kingdom is in power, not in word. We are called to be translated in the Kingdom and walk by the life available there.

Amen...by grace through faith!!!

SavedByGraceByFait
Nov 9th 2013, 06:55 PM
Amen...by grace through faith!!!

Now you are talking. There is no other.

"By grace are ye saved through faith"

episkopos
Nov 9th 2013, 06:58 PM
Now you are talking. There is no other.

"By grace are ye saved through faith"

Amen! We are being saved by abiding in Christ and walking in victory over all sin as Jesus did!

wpm
Nov 9th 2013, 07:01 PM
I think this is a useful verse - but I want you to note something. This action of believing is NOT a once in a lifetime action. It is a continuous action. He who believes - this is something started in the past and continues into the present. We are called to live in a state of believing. For OSAS to be true then the verse should read:
"He that believed in me has everlasting life."
However Jesus didn't say that. It is a present tense as a state of being. As soon as you recognise that, then you see this occurring in all the verses, then you realise the truth is to LbF.

Actually no. That is your opinion. The true believer will persevere to the end. The faith they received was a gift that they then exercised, do exercise and will exercise. It is ongoing.

Neanias
Nov 9th 2013, 07:04 PM
Amen...by grace through faith!!!

Yes! 'By grace through faith' we are first saved from the present battle, empowered to overcome sin and walk as he walked. if we abide in his grace, continuing to walk therein by faith, we will be granted a plentiful entrance into the kingdom on the last day also.

This is why we die daily and work out our salvation with fear and trembling, that we may know him, the fellowship of his sufferings, the power of his resurrection, that we may attain the resurrection of the dead.

Whoever has this hope purifies himself as He is pure! :)

Vakeros
Nov 9th 2013, 07:12 PM
Actually no. That is your opinion. The true believer will persevere to the end. The faith they received was a gift that they then exercised, do exercise and will exercise. It is ongoing.
What are you saying no to? I have just stated in what you quoted that believing is NOT a once in a lifetime action. It is to be lived through to the end. Unless you are stating that someone who once received the word by faith, but then walks away WAS not a true believer. The Bible doesn't give us that option. It shows there are some who did believe, but then to their eternal shame rejected it due to the trials and cares of this world. They aren't in the present tense a believer because they have stopped living by faith. They need to repent and start living by faith again.

wpm
Nov 9th 2013, 07:17 PM
What are you saying no to? I have just stated in what you quoted that believing is NOT a once in a lifetime action. It is to be lived through to the end. Unless you are stating that someone who once received the word by faith, but then walks away WAS not a true believer. The Bible doesn't give us that option. It shows there are some who did believe, but then to their eternal shame rejected it due to the trials and cares of this world. They aren't in the present tense a believer because they have stopped living by faith. They need to repent and start living by faith again.

The true child of God is sealed with the Holy Ghost to the day of redemption. If you disagree with that you are fighting with Scripture. The phony professor may turn from his profession.

Ephesians 4:30 says, “And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.”

Ephesians 1:11-14 declares, “In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest (or our pledge in advance) of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.”

episkopos
Nov 9th 2013, 07:19 PM
I think this is a useful verse - but I want you to note something. This action of believing is NOT a once in a lifetime action. It is a continuous action. He who believes - this is something started in the past and continues into the present. We are called to live in a state of believing. For OSAS to be true then the verse should read:
"He that believed in me has everlasting life."
However Jesus didn't say that. It is a present tense as a state of being. As soon as you recognise that, then you see this occurring in all the verses, then you realise the truth is to LbF.

Very good! You have a sound mind and are demonstrating the proof of NOT being indoctrinated. Very refreshing! :)

Vakeros
Nov 9th 2013, 08:33 PM
The true child of God is sealed with the Holy Ghost to the day of redemption. If you disagree with that you are fighting with Scripture. The phony professor may turn from his profession.

Ephesians 4:30 says, “And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.”

Ephesians 1:11-14 declares, “In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest (or our pledge in advance) of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.”
Nothing I have written is contrary to your two verses.If I have a pledge, then for it to be of value I must redeem the pledge. Yet if I refuse to redeem it as I no longer live by faith then the pledge is worthless. In fact it is worse than useless because I had received it and now reject it. This is why we need proper teaching in the church regarding living by faith. Jesus explained it well in the parable of the sower in Matthew 13. Notice that the seed grows both in rocky places and amongst weeds, but in both cases the crop never comes to fruition. Another picture given is John 15 with the Vine. If we don't remain in the Vine then we are thrown into the fire.
We obtain salvation by faith, but we need to run the good race to its end.
Jesus again spoke of a man who goes to war first calculates what is required in order to win or else he seeks peace. We need to preach exactly the same.

wpm
Nov 9th 2013, 08:47 PM
Nothing I have written is contrary to your two verses.If I have a pledge, then for it to be of value I must redeem the pledge. Yet if I refuse to redeem it as I no longer live by faith then the pledge is worthless. In fact it is worse than useless because I had received it and now reject it. This is why we need proper teaching in the church regarding living by faith. Jesus explained it well in the parable of the sower in Matthew 13. Notice that the seed grows both in rocky places and amongst weeds, but in both cases the crop never comes to fruition. Another picture given is John 15 with the Vine. If we don't remain in the Vine then we are thrown into the fire.
We obtain salvation by faith, but we need to run the good race to its end.
Jesus again spoke of a man who goes to war first calculates what is required in order to win or else he seeks peace. We need to preach exactly the same.

I take God at His Word. I have proved that He is trustworthy.

Vakeros
Nov 9th 2013, 08:54 PM
I take God at His Word. I have proved that He is trustworthy.
And you should continue doing so. I also prove God to be true to His word. He is indeed trustworthy. Matthew 10:33 tells us about those who once professed Christ, but then stop doing so.
2 Timothy 2:12 & 13 says the same thing. Titus 1:16 concurs. Jude 1:4 also holds this same point. We aren't just saved by faith, but we also live by faith. When we stop living by faith then we are in danger of denying that faith. When we deny Him then He will deny us. Paul makes this clear to Timothy. We can be faithless and He is still faithful, but when we deny Him then He denies us. Peter denied Jesus and had to be restored. LbF!

SavedByGraceByFait
Nov 9th 2013, 08:56 PM
And you should continue doing so. I also prove God to be true to His word. He is indeed trustworthy. Matthew 10:33 tells us about those who once professed Christ, but then stop doing so.
2 Timothy 2:12 & 13 says the same thing. Titus 1:16 concurs. Jude 1:4 also holds this same point. We aren't just saved by faith, but we also live by faith. When we stop living by faith then we are in danger of denying that faith. When we deny Him then He will deny us. Paul makes this clear to Timothy. We can be faithless and He is still faithful, but when we deny Him then He denies us. Peter denied Jesus and had to be restored. LbF!

Those that do not believe they are saved forever are denying Him.

wpm
Nov 9th 2013, 09:01 PM
And you should continue doing so. I also prove God to be true to His word. He is indeed trustworthy. Matthew 10:33 tells us about those who once professed Christ, but then stop doing so.


Where does it say they were believers and then not???


2 Timothy 2:12 & 13 says the same thing. Titus 1:16 concurs. Jude 1:4 also holds this same point. We aren't just saved by faith, but we also live by faith. When we stop living by faith then we are in danger of denying that faith. When we deny Him then He will deny us. Paul makes this clear to Timothy. We can be faithless and He is still faithful, but when we deny Him then He denies us. Peter denied Jesus and had to be restored. LbF!

Please prove your case instead of throwing a list of references that don't say what you are saying.

episkopos
Nov 9th 2013, 09:15 PM
Those that do not believe they are saved forever are denying Him.

LOL That is backwards again. Those who don't continue in faithfulness AFTER an encounter with Christ are denying Him.

Neanias
Nov 9th 2013, 09:28 PM
Titus 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

wpm
Nov 9th 2013, 09:41 PM
Titus 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

This is not speaking of a believer. This is a mere professor. Believers are not justified by good works, they are the fruit of obedience and will determine our reward.

Vakeros
Nov 9th 2013, 09:43 PM
Those that do not believe they are saved forever are denying Him.
No, those who stop living by faith deny Him. As long as you continue to live by faith then you don't deny Him.

Vakeros
Nov 9th 2013, 10:18 PM
Where does it say they were believers and then not???
It says that those who acknowledge Him, He will acknowledge and then in comparison those who disown Him, He will disown. This within the context from within the whole chapter of believers facing persecution. 10:22 "but he who stands firm to the end will be saved." The direct opposite of this is that the one who doesn't stand firm is therefore not saved. He continues telling the believers (the disciples) not to be afraid of them. In verse 28 He states "do not be afraid of those who can destroy the body, but cannot kill the soul. Rather be afraid of the one who can destroy both soul and body in hell." This is all teaching to believers, not unbelievers. This leads to verses 32 and 33 and within this context if we disown Him, He will disown us. It continues in context in verse 39 that whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.
The whole passage is about standing firm in Christ and NOT denying Him, for if you do He will deny you.


Please prove your case instead of throwing a list of references that don't say what you are saying.
2 Tim 2 in context is Paul writing to Timothy and reminding Timothy to be strong in the grace that is in Jesus. In verse 3 he writes to "endure hardship" this continues with the example of Jesus in verse 8 and that we can be assured of salvation, and we are given the example of Paul himself, who then states the following trustworthy saying "If we have died with him, we will also live with him; if we endure, we will also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us; if we are faithless, he remains faithful-- for he cannot deny himself."
He continues one this vein highlighting those whose teaching is like gangrene in verse 17 & 18. Specifically that they claim the resurrection has already occurred. Many Amills hold this same position contrary to what Paul writes here. Verse 19 continues that the Lord both "knows those who are His" AND that those who "confess the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness." You can't be one without the other. This continues on through Chapter 3 and into 4 where he writes about fighting the good fight and finishing the race (4:7)
Paul writes something similar to Titus. Now here Paul highlights those who claim to be in Christ, yet there actions show otherwise. Yet Paul doesn't say they didn't receive Christ, only that by their actions they deny Him, thus showing that they are detestable and unfit for doing anything good. Chapter 2 continues with 2:11 stating that "the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. It teaches us to say No to ungodliness etc. Verse 15 ends with the requirement ot both encourage and rebuke. Chapter 3 becomes yet more explicit as verse 5 puts "He saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Saviour, so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life."
Notice how Paul states we might "become", not we "are." He continues in verse 8 onwards that those who have trusted in God may be careful to continue so, this leads into verse 11 where there are people who are warped and sinful and self-condemned - yet this is from those who have at some point in time trusted themselves to God, yet do not continue devoting themselves.
Jude also makes the same point that there are those who change the grace of God into a licence for immorality. These are people who preach OSAS. They say, Jesus died for you and has saved you, now you can do what you want. They deny Jesus. the example Jude then gives is given in verse 5. The Lord delivered His people out of Egypt. Everyone who was delivered was one of His people. They were ALL saved, but then later destroyed those who did not believe. They believed to come out, but didn't continue in belief. Jude is basically a letter stating that OSAS is from the Devil. Instead he writes that we need to continue as we started.
But maybe those aren't enough for you. How about Ezekiel 33:12 - 20. Especially note verse 18 and apply it to a man of faith. If a righteous man turns from his righteousness and does evil he will die for it. God is very clear - Matthew 7:13 & 14 again states the same thing. Small is the gate - that is our entry by faith; narrow the road - that is our living by faith; and few find it. Some like to say I have gone through the gate so I don't need to go along the narrow road. Jesus says otherwise.
Matthew 13 we have plants growing, which are those who receive the word, but only one brings forth fruit.
If you need more then read the parable of the one who received the one talent in Matt 25:14 - 30. What was his fate? Did he enter and share with His master's happiness? Or did he get thrown into the darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth? Was the one who received the talent a servant of the master? Yes he was. Was he therefore guaranteed the place? No, for he forfeited it by not living by faith.
There are so many teachings by Jesus and the apostles that we must LbF. We must start the journey by faith, but we must then continue by faith.

Vakeros
Nov 9th 2013, 10:23 PM
This is not speaking of a believer. This is a mere professor. Believers are not justified by good works, they are the fruit of obedience and will determine our reward.
It is indeed a professor. Hebrews 4:14-16 states "Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need."
A believer is one who professes Christ and confesses the need for Him continually. I agree that believers aren't justified by good works. However they deny Christ through abominable works. If you don't have the good works then you aren't living by faith. The fruit of living by faith is good works. The fruit of OSAS is not fruit of obedience.
So yes Titus 1:16 is speaking of people who professed Him, but then decided that was enough, they are now saved and can now do their own thing.

SavedByGraceByFait
Nov 9th 2013, 10:35 PM
It is indeed a professor. Hebrews 4:14-16 states "Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need."
A believer is one who professes Christ and confesses the need for Him continually. I agree that believers aren't justified by good works. However they deny Christ through abominable works. If you don't have the good works then you aren't living by faith. The fruit of living by faith is good works. The fruit of OSAS is not fruit of obedience.
So yes Titus 1:16 is speaking of people who professed Him, but then decided that was enough, they are now saved and can now do their own thing.

They profess to know Jesus Christ, but because they count on works for salvation, they deny His sacrifice on the cross. So they are not saved. Not believing the gospel of salvation just by faith is "being abominable, and disobedient" and because they are not saved they can do no good works.

Titus 1:16
They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

ewq1938
Nov 9th 2013, 10:44 PM
There is a third person who denies OSAS. That would be a biblically literal person who knows OSAS is a man made doctrine not supported by scripture.




For once saved only saved to apply, a person has to have been saved at one time.

There are 2 types of people who deny OSAS.

There are some who never have been saved. Since they believe in a works based or merit based salvation they are not yet saved. Their faith does not count.

Romans 4:5
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

The other type of person who denies OSAS is saved but had been beguiled into believing a different gospel since their salvation. Of course they are still saved forever. Paul warned about this.

2 Corinthians 11:1-4
1 Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me.
2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

episkopos
Nov 9th 2013, 10:48 PM
They profess to know Jesus Christ, but because they count on works for salvation, they deny His sacrifice on the cross. So they are not saved. Not believing the gospel of salvation just by faith is "being abominable, and disobedient" and because they are not saved they can do no good works.

Titus 1:16
They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

You are lucky that someone can't be thrown off the forum for saying things like that. The sheer opposite is the truth. Those that are BEING saved walk in the works of God. Those who walk in the past are reprobate.

Very clever to ape a verse like that....but you are condemning us for exactly what you are doing. You call doing good works....salvation by works. You say they are not required. The blindness being exhibited is total.


So then you profess to know God and claim a saved status for yourselves...but deny the requirement of works...

Vakeros
Nov 9th 2013, 11:02 PM
They profess to know Jesus Christ, but because they count on works for salvation, they deny His sacrifice on the cross. So they are not saved. Not believing the gospel of salvation just by faith is "being abominable, and disobedient" and because they are not saved they can do no good works.
Titus 1:16
They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
Actually those mentioned here would NOT be those who count on works for salvation. It is clear that these are people who acknowledge His sacrifice, but then claim that Christ has said "it is finished" so we don't need to live by faith. Thus their works deny their supposed faith. Can you tell the difference between good works by a believer who lives by faith, and good works by someone who believes good works are required in order to enter heaven. In fact it is likely that the good works of the one who doesn't live by faith will seem more godly than the other person's. People sometimes mention the zeal of JW's and Muslims who are serious (as opposed to terrorists). Paul is highlighting those who are rebellious, who don't rely on good works, but rather flout the grace that was given.

Vakeros
Nov 9th 2013, 11:09 PM
James hits the nail on the head in James 2:14-26. Especially verses 20-24.
"Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness"--and he was called a friend of God. You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone."
Those who hold to OSAS are called foolish by James. It is a requirement to have faith and NOT works ALONE. The same is true in reverse that it is a requirement to have works and NOT faith alone. It starts with faith and continues with faith. We live by faith. Yet faith needs works in order to be complete.
It is like a person trying to clap with one hand. You can't do it. So too with faith. It requires a life lived out for Him. This is the works He has for us. LbF!

wpm
Nov 9th 2013, 11:22 PM
It says that those who acknowledge Him, He will acknowledge and then in comparison those who disown Him, He will disown. This within the context from within the whole chapter of believers facing persecution. 10:22 "but he who stands firm to the end will be saved." The direct opposite of this is that the one who doesn't stand firm is therefore not saved. He continues telling the believers (the disciples) not to be afraid of them. In verse 28 He states "do not be afraid of those who can destroy the body, but cannot kill the soul. Rather be afraid of the one who can destroy both soul and body in hell." This is all teaching to believers, not unbelievers. This leads to verses 32 and 33 and within this context if we disown Him, He will disown us. It continues in context in verse 39 that whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.
.

This is the opposite what you were originally alleging.

wpm
Nov 9th 2013, 11:25 PM
Those who hold to OSAS are called foolish by James.

This is always a sure sign a man has lost the argument.

episkopos
Nov 9th 2013, 11:33 PM
This is always a sure sign a man has lost the argument.

By citing James???

Vakeros
Nov 9th 2013, 11:59 PM
This is the opposite what you were originally alleging.
No it isn't. I have consistently stated that we need to live by faith even if that leads to our death.

Vakeros
Nov 10th 2013, 12:02 AM
This is always a sure sign a man has lost the argument.
James sums up the OSAS position and calls those who hold it foolish. You need to show how the OSAS position is different to what James has said. I agree that we are saved by faith, but what OSAS denies is that we must also live by faith. That living by faith involves works. OSAS says you can't lose your salvation regardless of how you live your life AFTER confessing Jesus as Lord and repenting of your sins.

Curtis
Nov 10th 2013, 12:41 AM
James sums up the OSAS position and calls those who hold it foolish. You need to show how the OSAS position is different to what James has said. I agree that we are saved by faith, but what OSAS denies is that we must also live by faith. That living by faith involves works. OSAS says you can't lose your salvation regardless of how you live your life AFTER confessing Jesus as Lord and repenting of your sins.

The problem with thinking that our works are going to somehow save us is not good. We don't do anything on own on. It is God him self who does the works through us. As Jesus said, "without me you can do nothing."(John 15:5) Even Jesus said that he could do nothing on his own....

Joh 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

Jesus always said that it was his Father in him that was doing the works, not himself. Faith without works is dead, and faith works by love. God is love, and only God can do the works of faith through his Church. The mind set that we are doing these works is giving Glory to self and not God. The only works we are suppose to do is to believe the word.....

Joh 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

SavedByGraceByFait
Nov 10th 2013, 02:56 AM
James sums up the OSAS position and calls those who hold it foolish. You need to show how the OSAS position is different to what James has said. I agree that we are saved by faith, but what OSAS denies is that we must also live by faith. That living by faith involves works. OSAS says you can't lose your salvation regardless of how you live your life AFTER confessing Jesus as Lord and repenting of your sins.

Salvation by works is a false doctrine
Also note the saved are saved not potentially saved
Once saved always saved is the truth

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

episkopos
Nov 10th 2013, 02:58 AM
James sums up the OSAS position and calls those who hold it foolish. You need to show how the OSAS position is different to what James has said. I agree that we are saved by faith, but what OSAS denies is that we must also live by faith. That living by faith involves works. OSAS says you can't lose your salvation regardless of how you live your life AFTER confessing Jesus as Lord and repenting of your sins.

Very good! A sound judgment!

SavedByGraceByFait
Nov 10th 2013, 03:04 AM
Very good! A sound judgment!

And entirely wrong

episkopos
Nov 10th 2013, 03:11 AM
And entirely wrong
:help:................

Neanias
Nov 10th 2013, 03:34 AM
The saved status, that is, the belief that men are eternally saved because of what happened in one instant no matter what things follow this is an enemy of the truth.

The more one believes himself justified in this way, while still carnal, the less he fears God. To believe in such a doctrine, one is forced to also believe, whether he is willing to use the following words or not, that he is a favorite and God is partial. Though others should for their sins fear God, and are judged of this man, he believes himself to be immune to the consequences of his sin, present, past and future.

This man then upholds a double-standard: he looks at the whole world and condemns it for his sin, but he himself though he remain disobedient claims that he will receive immunity.

The people who believe this will soon contradict the above by saying they are obedient because they believe. But to all who read, do not be fooled: such statements are doublespeak. On the one hand, they constantly claim to need only believe, and not obey any commandments, on the other, they claim that they obey because believing is the beginning and end of all commandments (this is what they say, which is not true). This doublespeak is necessary because their statements only work with some parts of the word, so they must flip between one and the other.

Anyone who has sought for himself can see that we are required to do more than just believe, but to do the actions that follow believing, and continue to do them, as we are exhorted, lest we also be cut off!

Neanias
Nov 10th 2013, 03:42 AM
To give oneself carte-blanche because of ones beliefs only promotes to be a servant of ones own lusts and will, and not serve God. It only promotes to leave the old man of the cross, and let his lusts run free. But we are to put to death the flesh and it's deeds!

Only some would believe that such a crucifying of the old man would be works that we should not do, even though Paul himself commands it.

What a sad state of affairs!

Neanias
Nov 10th 2013, 03:51 AM
The problem with thinking that our works are going to somehow save us is not good. We don't do anything on own on. It is God him self who does the works through us. As Jesus said, "without me you can do nothing."(John 15:5) Even Jesus said that he could do nothing on his own....

Joh 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

Jesus always said that it was his Father in him that was doing the works, not himself. Faith without works is dead, and faith works by love. God is love, and only God can do the works of faith through his Church. The mind set that we are doing these works is giving Glory to self and not God. The only works we are suppose to do is to believe the word.....

Joh 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

So you're saying we are not saved by works, but we are saved by a work: believing?

Curtis
Nov 10th 2013, 04:23 AM
So you're saying we are not saved by works, but we are saved by a work: believing?

No, works, that is believing what the Word says that God has done. Faith is not believing in what God is going to do, but in what he has already done.Your salvation was not the results of what you believed God is going to do for you, but in what Jesus did for you (past tense) on the cross. The works part is what God does through us. If I ever say or think in my mind it was because of my own actions that I am saved, that would be glorifying my self and not the one who only deserves the Glory.

2Co 10:17 But, "The one who brags should brag about what the Lord has done." (Jeremiah 9:24)
2Co 10:18 Those who praise themselves are not accepted. Those the Lord praises are accepted. (NIrV)

Curtis
Nov 10th 2013, 04:40 AM
The saved status, that is, the belief that men are eternally saved because of what happened in one instant no matter what things follow this is an enemy of the truth.

The more one believes himself justified in this way, while still carnal, the less he fears God. To believe in such a doctrine, one is forced to also believe, whether he is willing to use the following words or not, that he is a favorite and God is partial. Though others should for their sins fear God, and are judged of this man, he believes himself to be immune to the consequences of his sin, present, past and future.

This man then upholds a double-standard: he looks at the whole world and condemns it for his sin, but he himself though he remain disobedient claims that he will receive immunity.

The people who believe this will soon contradict the above by saying they are obedient because they believe. But to all who read, do not be fooled: such statements are doublespeak. On the one hand, they constantly claim to need only believe, and not obey any commandments, on the other, they claim that they obey because believing is the beginning and end of all commandments (this is what they say, which is not true). This doublespeak is necessary because their statements only work with some parts of the word, so they must flip between one and the other.

Anyone who has sought for himself can see that we are required to do more than just believe, but to do the actions that follow believing, and continue to do them, as we are exhorted, lest we also be cut off!

If Jesus, the Son of God, said John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: And he also said that without me you can do nothing, but you say I can do something on my own, who would you believe? I surely would not believe you. Are you stronger in understanding than God, Do you have something that he Jesus did not have? If Jesus could not do it, than how is it you can? Is your own strength sufficient to such a task with out the need of God him self? You are completly missing the Gospel of peace. It has nothing to do with you, it is only about what Jesus Christ has done and what he is still doing through his body by the Holy Spirit.

Neanias
Nov 10th 2013, 05:19 AM
If Jesus, the Son of God, said John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: And he also said that without me you can do nothing, but you say I can do something on my own, who would you believe? I surely would not believe you. Are you stronger in understanding than God, Do you have something that he Jesus did not have? If Jesus could not do it, than how is it you can? Is your own strength sufficient to such a task with out the need of God him self? You are completly missing the Gospel of peace. It has nothing to do with you, it is only about what Jesus Christ has done and what he is still doing through his body by the Holy Spirit.

You are completely ignoring the fact that any relationship takes two, unless it's abusive, that includes God and man. 'Can two walk together unless they agree?'

We can do nothing of our own strength, yes, in the same manner that the ground cannot on it's own grow a tree. The ground is powerless to bring forth a tree or fruit unless the seed is given to it. In the same way, we can do nothing without God. But we must make the ground suitable to grow what God plants in it. That is our part.

Is it God who presents our bodies as living sacrifices to God? Or do we do that? Does God carry our cross daily for us? Or do we?

You are denying this aspect. We have no power to do anything of our own. But God does not empower us and make us do things against our will. We must co-operate and do the things he tells us to do. If we are willing, He gives us the power to carry them out. To use this to deny we must choose to do it, and can choose not to is not in accord with the rest of scripture.

The type of belief that many here promote is not what we are called to. When Paul says 'continue in his goodness, lest you also be cut off' is he also promoting we do something that is impossible? In your doctrine, either it is impossible for us to be cut off, or impossible for us not to continue in his goodness. Either way, it makes the words of Paul vain, and exhortations unnecessary.

Curtis
Nov 10th 2013, 05:21 AM
To give oneself carte-blanche because of ones beliefs only promotes to be a servant of ones own lusts and will, and not serve God. It only promotes to leave the old man of the cross, and let his lusts run free. But we are to put to death the flesh and it's deeds!

Only some would believe that such a crucifying of the old man would be works that we should not do, even though Paul himself commands it.

What a sad state of affairs!

I wonder how we are suppose to crucify the flesh? Is it some kind of super human strength we have of our own self's? .I want to see you do this with out the Spirit of God, and if it is by the Spirit of God why are you supposing that it is you doing it?

Rom 8:13 If you live under the control of your sinful nature, you will die. But by the power of the Holy Spirit you can put to death the sins your body commits. Then you will live.
Rom 8:14 Those who are led by the Spirit of God are children of God.

Like I said before it has nothing to do with you because with out Jesus you can no do anything!!!! It is God who does the works.

Joh 14:10 "Don't you believe that I am in the Father? Don't you believe that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. The Father lives in me. He is the One who is doing his work.

Neanias
Nov 10th 2013, 05:28 AM
When the word is spoken, in the same word is the seed and life and power we need to carry out what we must do. If we are willing and believe, we receive that seed. So we cannot do it of our own, but only if we receive the seed (life). But we also know that not all who receive the seed bear the fruit they should.

Hosea 10:12 Sow to yourselves in righteousness, reap in mercy; break up your fallow ground: for it is time to seek the Lord, till he come and rain righteousness upon you.

Hebrews 10:7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: 8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

We have our part to play. We are to break up the fallow ground, that the seed would bring forth the fruit it is meant to bring forth.

Curtis
Nov 10th 2013, 05:34 AM
You are completely ignoring the fact that any relationship takes two, unless it's abusive, that includes God and man. 'Can two walk together unless they agree?'

We can do nothing of our own strength, yes, in the same manner that the ground cannot on it's own grow a tree. The ground is powerless to bring forth a tree or fruit unless the seed is given to it. In the same way, we can do nothing without God. But we must make the ground suitable to grow what God plants in it. That is our part.

Is it God who presents our bodies as living sacrifices to God? Or do we do that? Does God carry our cross daily for us? Or do we?

You are denying this aspect. We have no power to do anything of our own. But God does not empower us and make us do things against our will. We must co-operate and do the things he tells us to do. If we are willing, He gives us the power to carry them out. To use this to deny we must choose to do it, and can choose not to is not in accord with the rest of scripture.

The type of belief that many here promote is not what we are called to. When Paul says 'continue in his goodness, lest you also be cut off' is he also promoting we do something that is impossible? In your doctrine, either it is impossible for us to be cut off, or impossible for us not to continue in his goodness. Either way, it makes the words of Paul vain, and exhortations unnecessary.

What I am trying to show you is that yes we do works, but the works we do is not from our self's. We are children the of God, and he has given Jesus all power and authority who is our head, and we are his body in which this power and authority flows to. We are his workmanship created in Christ Jesus unto good works which he has prepared for us to walk in. But the work we have to do can not be done from our own strength. It has to flow only from him alone, so our thinking must only be on what the Lord is doing through us, and not our self,s. He alone is worthy to receive all the Glory and praise.

Neanias
Nov 10th 2013, 05:35 AM
I wonder how we are suppose to crucify the flesh? Is it some kind of super human strength we have of our own self's? .I want to see you do this with out the Spirit of God, and if it is by the Spirit of God why are you supposing that it is you doing it?

Rom 8:13 If you live under the control of your sinful nature, you will die. But by the power of the Holy Spirit you can put to death the sins your body commits. Then you will live.
Rom 8:14 Those who are led by the Spirit of God are children of God.

Like I said before it has nothing to do with you because with out Jesus you can no do anything!!!! It is God who does the works.

Joh 14:10 "Don't you believe that I am in the Father? Don't you believe that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. The Father lives in me. He is the One who is doing his work.

Why do you disagree when I am speaking of obedience through the Spirit? If we believe and obey, according to spiritual revelation that is given us, would you call that works by our own strength? We can do nothing spiritual without receiving of the Spirit. But we must carry out what we are commanded with what we have received.

1 Peter 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

We obey the truth through the spirit. We are not converted as mindless bots controlled by the Spirit, were we do nothing, but as men willing to follow the Spirit.

Neanias
Nov 10th 2013, 05:42 AM
What I am trying to show you is that yes we do works, but the works we do is not from our self's. We are children the of God, and he has given Jesus all power and authority who is our head, and we are his body in which this power and authority flows to. We are his workmanship created in Christ Jesus unto good works which he has prepared for us to walk in. But the work we have to do can not be done from our own strength. It has to flow only from him alone, so our thinking must only be on what the Lord is doing through us, and not our self,s. He alone is worthy to receive all the Glory and praise.

That's fair then. You must of misunderstood the meaning of my first post. Here's what you responded to when you first tried to prove your point:


The saved status, that is, the belief that men are eternally saved because of what happened in one instant no matter what things follow this is an enemy of the truth.

The more one believes himself justified in this way, while still carnal, the less he fears God. To believe in such a doctrine, one is forced to also believe, whether he is willing to use the following words or not, that he is a favorite and God is partial. Though others should for their sins fear God, and are judged of this man, he believes himself to be immune to the consequences of his sin, present, past and future.

This man then upholds a double-standard: he looks at the whole world and condemns it for his sin, but he himself though he remain disobedient claims that he will receive immunity.

The people who believe this will soon contradict the above by saying they are obedient because they believe. But to all who read, do not be fooled: such statements are doublespeak. On the one hand, they constantly claim to need only believe, and not obey any commandments, on the other, they claim that they obey because believing is the beginning and end of all commandments (this is what they say, which is not true). This doublespeak is necessary because their statements only work with some parts of the word, so they must flip between one and the other.

Anyone who has sought for himself can see that we are required to do more than just believe, but to do the actions that follow believing, and continue to do them, as we are exhorted, lest we also be cut off!

I am speaking of people that preach salvation apart from obeying. Why did you come so quickly to the conclusion that I am speaking of obedience according to our own strength?

A reading of other posts I have made recently would quickly show you that I believe in a supernatural walk in Christ Jesus, supernatural meaning it is by his power. We are simply willing partners and vessels, and his power works through us.

Is your issue with the fact that I did say we need to obey and continue to be saved?

Curtis
Nov 10th 2013, 05:44 AM
Why do you disagree when I am speaking of obedience through the Spirit? If we believe and obey, according to spiritual revelation that is given us, would you call that works by our own strength? We can do nothing spiritual without receiving of the Spirit. But we must carry out what we are commanded with what we have received.

1 Peter 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

We obey the truth through the spirit. We are not converted as mindless bots controlled by the Spirit, were we do nothing, but as men willing to follow the Spirit.

Exactly, it is only through the Spirit that we can do anything. There is a big difference between saying look at what I am doing, to look at what the Lord is doing through us.

1Co 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me was not in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God that is with me.

Neanias
Nov 10th 2013, 05:46 AM
Exactly, it is only through the Spirit that we can do anything. There is a big difference between saying look at what I am doing, to look at what the Lord is doing through us.

1Co 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me was not in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God that is with me.

I am speaking of people that preach salvation apart from obeying. Why did you come so quickly to the conclusion that I am speaking of obedience according to our own strength?

A reading of other posts I have made recently would quickly show you that I believe in a supernatural walk in Christ Jesus, supernatural meaning it is by his power. We are simply willing partners and vessels, and his power works through us.

Is your issue with the fact that I did say we need to obey and continue to be saved?

Curtis
Nov 10th 2013, 05:58 AM
That's fair then. You must of misunderstood the meaning of my first post. Here's what you responded to when you first tried to prove your point:



I am speaking of people that preach salvation apart from obeying. Why did you come so quickly to the conclusion that I am speaking of obedience according to our own strength?

A reading of other posts I have made recently would quickly show you that I believe in a supernatural walk in Christ Jesus, supernatural meaning it is by his power. We are simply willing partners and vessels, and his power works through us.

Is your issue with the fact that I did say we need to obey and continue to be saved?


You look at salvation as something that will be future. The truth is salvation is a thing of the past. The Lord already knew your every actions before he created this planet earth. He knew all the works you would do, and all the choices you will make. Based on that information he choose you to be in Christ before the foundations of the world. There is no guess work in salvation/ We are who we are because of his mercy, and grace. The only requirement for us is to believe the Word, and then the Lord moves us by His Spirit to do his bidding. We simply rejoice in this because we know it is not us doing the work but God.

Neanias
Nov 10th 2013, 06:08 AM
[/I][/B]

You look at salvation as something that will be future. The truth is salvation is a thing of the past. The Lord already knew your every actions before he created this planet earth. He knew all the works you would do, and all the choices you will make. Based on that information he choose you to be in Christ before the foundations of the world. There is no guess work in salvation/ We are who we are because of his mercy, and grace. The only requirement for us is to believe the Word, and then the Lord moves us by His Spirit to do his bidding. We simply rejoice in this because we know it is not us doing the work but God.

If this leads to selflessness, and saying 'I do not know the end of the matter, but God does' and causes you to selflessly obey God, whether heaven or hell, glory or dishonor, then the doctrine does good for you.

To say that God knows in advance because he is all knowing is one thing. Many here subscribe to the idea that they know too, and are saved, and glorified already for all eternity. That is another.

The bible speaks of those who bear good fruit, and those who do not, those who continue to the end, and those who fall away. We wouldn't be wise to judge anything before it's time, including ourselves. Rather we should continue to obey in humility and the fear of God. That's how we work out our salvation.

Limiting salvation to one thing, that happens one time and lasts for eternity isn't what the word does. We receive salvation today if we abide in him, because we have power to walk as he walked and are saved from our current condition. We received salvation when God turned us around, because we had no hope, and now we do.

To add error onto error, many who subscribe to this idea of one time salvation also subscribe to it being apart from salvation, only a meaningless believing which produces no obedience and doing.

TheDivineWatermark
Nov 10th 2013, 06:28 AM
"Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit." 1 John 4:13


"Christ in you the [sure] hope of glory"

(at least 7 verses say Christ is IN the believer: John 14:20, Romans 8:10, 2 Corinthians 4:10, 11, 13:5, Galatians 2:20, Colossians 1:27)

"[the God of peace...] Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing [same word as in 2 Cor 5:9 "accepted" of Him] in his sight, through [by means of] Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen." Hebrews 13:21

shepherdsword
Nov 10th 2013, 06:37 AM
"Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit." 1 John 4:13


"Christ in you the [sure] hope of glory"

(at least 7 verses say Christ is IN the believer: John 14:20, Romans 8:10, 2 Corinthians 4:10, 11, 13:5, Galatians 2:20, Colossians 1:27)

"[the God of peace...] Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing [same word as in 2 Cor 5:9 "accepted" of Him] in his sight, through [by means of] Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen." Hebrews 13:21

Amen brother,Christ dwells in us:

You left out this verse,which also speaks of Christ dwelling in us:

2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

TheDivineWatermark
Nov 10th 2013, 06:44 AM
Amen brother,Christ dwells in us:

You left out this verse,which also speaks of Christ dwelling in us:

2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

Amen, I agree that He is indeed! :thumbsup: (In another thread I posted just a few of the "IN Christ" verses. We are in Christ. Both are true.)

I remember now... many people misinterpret the verse (and its context) quoted above. But I agree that "Jesus Christ is in you" pertains to the saved. Amen.

shepherdsword
Nov 10th 2013, 06:46 AM
Amen, I agree that He is indeed! In another thread I posted just a few of the "IN Christ" verses. :thumbsup:

In the John 14:20 verse I posted above, it says (Jesus said), "... I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you."

This is why it is important to examine ourselves to be sure that the faith we claim to have is authentic. Is there any other way to judge faith except by what it produces?

TheDivineWatermark
Nov 10th 2013, 06:55 AM
I changed my post and added the following:


I remember now... many people misinterpret the verse (and its context) quoted above. But I agree that "Jesus Christ is in you" pertains to the saved. Amen.

In answer to your question, yes... I posted that in the previous post:


Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit." 1 John 4:13

Sometimes we may quench or grieve the Spirit (who indwells and has sealed the believer), and in those moments we are not simultaneously evidencing our faith... though we be "in the faith," that body of truth revealed in the NT ("Jesus Christ is in you"). Yet He abideth faithful. He has promised never to leave us or forsake us. In this is we find assurance.

shepherdsword
Nov 10th 2013, 07:05 AM
I changed my post and added the following:



In answer to your question, yes... I posted that in the previous post:



Sometimes we may quench or grieve the Spirit, and in those moments we are not simultaneously evidencing our faith... though we be "in the faith," that body of truth revealed in the NT ("Jesus Christ in you").

Amen...we all have moments of weakness and fail. The blood of Jesus has to be applied,sin confessed and repentance demonstrated. I am sorry to say I have grieved the Spirit many times. If anyone is honest I think they would make the same confession. However,I fear going on continually grieving Him. It would be an arrogant presumption on my part to think that I could do so without consequence.

2Co 5:11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men...

A healthy fear of God is a wise thing to have. There are some that have seemed to cast such fear off.

Dani
Nov 10th 2013, 07:46 AM
What I am trying to show you is that yes we do works, but the works we do is not from our self's. We are children the of God, and he has given Jesus all power and authority who is our head, and we are his body in which this power and authority flows to. We are his workmanship created in Christ Jesus unto good works which he has prepared for us to walk in. But the work we have to do can not be done from our own strength. It has to flow only from him alone, so our thinking must only be on what the Lord is doing through us, and not our self,s. He alone is worthy to receive all the Glory and praise.

:)

May God continue to bless
Dani

shepherdsword
Nov 10th 2013, 07:56 AM
What I am trying to show you is that yes we do works, but the works we do is not from our self's. We are children the of God, and he has given Jesus all power and authority who is our head, and we are his body in which this power and authority flows to. We are his workmanship created in Christ Jesus unto good works which he has prepared for us to walk in. But the work we have to do can not be done from our own strength. It has to flow only from him alone, so our thinking must only be on what the Lord is doing through us, and not our self,s. He alone is worthy to receive all the Glory and praise.

Where has anyone said that we are justified by works rooted in self? Can you present a single post saying so? You are presenting a strawman that no one is defending. We all agree that any work that is approved by God has to be rooted in His power. What some disagree on is that any work is manifested at all. I see a great contradiction in the attitude of a few that hold this position. They chide others because they judge them as not acting like Christ. If faith doesn't produce a real change in character why expect anyone to conduct themselves as Jesus would do?

Is the righteousness that God imputes to us something that only He can see? If only He can see it why are we instructed that we will know false teachers by their fruit? Shouldn't real faith produce a character that everyone can see? If not why are we told to let our lights shine before men?

SavedByGraceByFait
Nov 10th 2013, 12:38 PM
Where has anyone said that we are justified by works rooted in self? Can you present a single post saying so? You are presenting a strawman that no one is defending. We all agree that any work that is approved by God has to be rooted in His power. What some disagree on is that any work is manifested at all. I see a great contradiction in the attitude of a few that hold this position. They chide others because they judge them as not acting like Christ. If faith doesn't produce a real change in character why expect anyone to conduct themselves as Jesus would do?

Is the righteousness that God imputes to us something that only He can see? If only He can see it why are we instructed that we will know false teachers by their fruit? Shouldn't real faith produce a character that everyone can see? If not why are we told to let our lights shine before men?

Of course there is no works needed for salvation or to maintain salvation. In verse 8, it says "are ye saved" which matches the thread's name "we are saved."

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

episkopos
Nov 10th 2013, 01:06 PM
Of course there is no works needed for salvation or to maintain salvation. In verse 8, it says "are ye saved" which matches the thread's name "we are saved."

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

we are BEING saved.... IF we are walking in His grace by faith.

SavedByGraceByFait
Nov 10th 2013, 01:24 PM
we are BEING saved.... IF we are walking in His grace by faith.

In verse 8, it says "are ye saved" which matches the thread's name "we are saved." The word "being" is not in that passage at all. You even capitalized a word that is not in the passage. It says "are ye saved," a declaration of God that never changes.

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

It also says "are saved" is the following.

Ephesians 2:5
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

episkopos
Nov 10th 2013, 01:26 PM
In verse 8, it says "are ye saved" which matches the thread's name "we are saved." The word "being" is not in that passage at all. You even capitalized a word that is not in the passage. It says "are ye saved," a declaration of God that never changes.

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

It also says "are saved" is the following.

Ephesians 2:5
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

I know what some translations say. If you studied the bible as much as you grandstanded on a faulty understanding you would see the error yourself.

SavedByGraceByFait
Nov 10th 2013, 01:31 PM
I know what some translations say. If you studied the bible as much as you grandstanded on a faulty understanding you would see the error yourself.

I do not know of any that say other than "are saved" and "are ye saved". But if you do find any, the majority agrees with the "are saved" declaration.

As to how much I have studied the Holy Bible, how can you possibly know how much I have studied. Sounds like surmising.

In verse 8, it says "are ye saved" which matches the thread's name "we are saved." The word "being" is not in that passage at all. You even capitalized a word that is not in the passage. It says "are ye saved," a declaration of God that never changes.

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

It also says "are saved" is the following.

Ephesians 2:5
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

episkopos
Nov 10th 2013, 01:51 PM
I do not know of any that say other than "are saved" and "are ye saved". But if you do find any, the majority agrees with the "are saved" declaration.

As to how much I have studied the Holy Bible, how can you possibly know how much I have studied. Sounds like surmising.

In verse 8, it says "are ye saved" which matches the thread's name "we are saved." The word "being" is not in that passage at all. You even capitalized a word that is not in the passage. It says "are ye saved," a declaration of God that never changes.

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

It also says "are saved" is the following.

Ephesians 2:5
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

Only indoctrinated people are afraid to look more closely at the tenses in Greek. It seems a delusion once accepted is hard to forsake.

http://www.e-sword.net/

SavedByGraceByFait
Nov 10th 2013, 01:58 PM
Only indoctrinated people are afraid to look more closely at the tenses in Greek. It seems a delusion once accepted is hard to forsake.

http://www.e-sword.net/

Only indoctrinated people try to change the words of God to fit their theory. The word of God is alrerady been translated into English. I am sure they knew what they were doing. Why not write your own English translation if you know that much.

Jesus Christ said:

Matthew 24:35
Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

Mark 13:31
Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

Luke 21:33
Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

John 6:47
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

episkopos
Nov 10th 2013, 02:02 PM
Only indoctrinated people try to change the words of God to fit their theory. The word of God is alrerady been translated into English. I am sure they knew what they were doing. Why not write your own English translation if you know that much.

Jesus Christ said:

Matthew 24:35
Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

Mark 13:31
Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

Luke 21:33
Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

John 6:47
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

The concordance doesn't give you the tense in the Greek. But you can see that the tense qualifier in English has been added to the text. So then part of our seeking for truth must also include looking into the Greek. Shepherdsword is knowledgeable in Greek. Check with him...

SavedByGraceByFait
Nov 10th 2013, 03:01 PM
The concordance doesn't give you the tense in the Greek. But you can see that the tense qualifier in English has been added to the text. So then part of our seeking for truth must also include looking into the Greek. Shepherdsword is knowledgeable in Greek. Check with him...

I understand what you are saying.

But the word of God is already in English.

And Jesus Christ said:

Matthew 24:35
Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

Jesus Christ also said:

John 11:25-27
25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.

episkopos
Nov 10th 2013, 03:10 PM
I understand what you are saying.

But the word of God is already in English.


Agreed! But if you look at the more recent translation you will see that tenses have finally been corrected. The problem before was that people were used to the KJV...a translation that dates so far back that some sentences were basically unintelligible to modern English speakers.

For example...conversation actually means...conduct. (From the KJV)


Unfortunately many denominations were created simply over a reaction to a certain translation.

So with all the opinions and sects this has produced it behooves a serious seeker of the truth to investigate these things carefully. Any unlearned person can set up a denomination based on a faulty understanding. But as the flock checks the truth for themselves....then that flock will hopefully diminish leaving only the hard-core ignorers of truth.


So I invite you into the deeper studies...and take a unbiased look at some of the new translations that shed light on a former inaccuracy is the translating into a more modern understandable English.



And Jesus Christ said:

Matthew 24:35
Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.


But Jesus never spoke in English. even the KJV is just a translation...

SavedByGraceByFait
Nov 10th 2013, 03:25 PM
Agreed! But if you look at the more recent translation you will see that tenses have finally been corrected. The problem before was that people were used to the KJV...a translation that dates so far back that some sentences were basically unintelligible to modern English speakers.

For example...conversation actually means...conduct. (From the KJV)


Unfortunately many denominations were created simply over a reaction to a certain translation.

So with all the opinions and sects this has produced it behooves a serious seeker of the truth to investigate these things carefully. Any unlearned person can set up a denomination based on a faulty understanding. But as the flock checks the truth for themselves....then that flock will hopefully diminish leaving only the hard-core ignorers of truth.


So I invite you into the deeper studies...and take a unbiased look at some of the new translations that shed light on a former inaccuracy is the translating into a more modern understandable English.




But Jesus never spoke in English. even the KJV is just a translation...

While there has been some changes in the English language since the King James, they are easy to account for.

Obviously spelling changes, many of which were updated in the late 1700s.
The use of thee, thou, thy, thine are considered archaic, but do carry the information in the original language.


However, the King James is allowed to be used or are you trying to turn this into a debate on bible versions?

You quote whatever version you desire. I use the King James Bible.

Neanias
Nov 10th 2013, 07:21 PM
Where has anyone said that we are justified by works rooted in self? Can you present a single post saying so? You are presenting a strawman that no one is defending. We all agree that any work that is approved by God has to be rooted in His power. What some disagree on is that any work is manifested at all. I see a great contradiction in the attitude of a few that hold this position. They chide others because they judge them as not acting like Christ. If faith doesn't produce a real change in character why expect anyone to conduct themselves as Jesus would do?

Is the righteousness that God imputes to us something that only He can see? If only He can see it why are we instructed that we will know false teachers by their fruit? Shouldn't real faith produce a character that everyone can see? If not why are we told to let our lights shine before men?

Exactly! Thank you for saying that...

There has become in the doctrine of many a sort of allergic reaction to the word and idea of works. Paul spoke against works of the old law and works of the flesh because they are not what we are called to, and what we should be striving to do.

But Paul also said to maintain good works (Titus 3) and that God gave us grace to have a peculiar people, zealous of good works (Titus 2). Paul did not speak against obedience in general, he spoke against obedience to the traditions of men and for obedience to the Spirit. The true problem is that many, like the Pharisees have created their own carnal standard of obedience, and this is the very thing that blinds them from obedience to the Spirit. Why follow the Spirit if we already consider ourselves to have acted out all the obedience that is necessary? This is why the Pharisees would not receive Jesus, and what the Spirit did.

In the same way, OSAS is a defense of our own carnal standard of obedience which falls short of the biblical standard of believing. We see in the Bible what this kind of believing produces, and the necessity for this to be maintained and continued in. But to accommodate their own lusts, men have brought this believing down to something meaningless. This allows them to, as the Pharisees, consider themselves to have fulfilled all the obedience that is necessary, and as the Pharisees also, makes them immune to the call of the Spirit when it comes.

This does not produce sons of God, men who are led by the Spirit. It creates religious men who hold a skewed view of salvation, in which they can fit themselves into the highest position and everyone else into the lowest.

episkopos
Nov 10th 2013, 07:29 PM
While there has been some changes in the English language since the King James, they are easy to account for.

Obviously spelling changes, many of which were updated in the late 1700s.
The use of thee, thou, thy, thine are considered archaic, but do carry the information in the original language.


However, the King James is allowed to be used or are you trying to turn this into a debate on bible versions?

You quote whatever version you desire. I use the King James Bible.

I knoweth! ............

episkopos
Nov 10th 2013, 07:31 PM
Exactly! Thank you for saying that...

There has become in the doctrine of many a sort of allergic reaction to the word and idea of works. Paul spoke against works of the old law and works of the flesh because they are not what we are called to, and what we should be striving to do.

But Paul also said to maintain good works (Titus 3) and that God gave us grace to have a peculiar people, zealous of good works (Titus 2). Paul did not speak against obedience in general, he spoke against obedience to the traditions of men and for obedience to the Spirit. The true problem is that many, like the Pharisees have created their own carnal standard of obedience, and this is the very thing that blinds them from obedience to the Spirit. Why follow the Spirit if we already consider ourselves to have acted out all the obedience that is necessary? This is why the Pharisees would not receive Jesus, and what the Spirit did.

In the same way, OSAS is a defense of our own carnal standard of obedience which falls short of the biblical standard of believing. We see in the Bible what this kind of believing produces, and the necessity for this to be maintained and continued in. But to accommodate their own lusts, men have brought this believing down to something meaningless. This allows them to, as the Pharisees, consider themselves to have fulfilled all the obedience that is necessary, and as the Pharisees also, makes them immune to the call of the Spirit when it comes.

This does not produce sons of God, men who are led by the Spirit. It creates religious men who hold a skewed view of salvation, in which they can fit themselves into the highest position and everyone else into the lowest.

Well said!...............

Neanias
Nov 10th 2013, 07:32 PM
It is misled to try and reconcile the modern evangelicalism idea of 'no works at all' with the truth of new life in Christ Jesus. Those who say we should do nothing at all, including obedience, and who practice such a walk only reveal they do not understand the power and nature of the new creation in Christ. If we have a walk of obedience, we should not speak so (Yes, I am thinking of you Curtis. Your testimony is good, but your doctrine is the same that many lawless men hold). We are called to new life, and to walk in salvation, not to experience only a one time salvation. The error is the same again, to think of all this as a one time salvation: this idea completely ignore obedience and all the warnings. We were saved, are being saved, and will be saved... If we continue to the end.

The only way to defend OSAS while defending obedience and walking by faith is to somewhere believe either we are favorites of God and should do this, but will not be judged on it, or that we become mindless bots upon conversion, entirely controlled by another Spirit. The reality is we retain free will. God wants a people that chooses to submit itself to Him and co-operate with him. And there are consequences to not choosing obedience in the face of the fact we have received all things pertaining to godliness.

SavedByGraceByFait
Nov 10th 2013, 09:43 PM
It is misled to try and reconcile the modern evangelicalism idea of 'no works at all' with the truth of new life in Christ Jesus. Those who say we should do nothing at all, including obedience, and who practice such a walk only reveal they do not understand the power and nature of the new creation in Christ. If we have a walk of obedience, we should not speak so (Yes, I am thinking of you Curtis. Your testimony is good, but your doctrine is the same that many lawless men hold). We are called to new life, and to walk in salvation, not to experience only a one time salvation. The error is the same again, to think of all this as a one time salvation: this idea completely ignore obedience and all the warnings. We were saved, are being saved, and will be saved... If we continue to the end.

The only way to defend OSAS while defending obedience and walking by faith is to somewhere believe either we are favorites of God and should do this, but will not be judged on it, or that we become mindless bots upon conversion, entirely controlled by another Spirit. The reality is we retain free will. God wants a people that chooses to submit itself to Him and co-operate with him. And there are consequences to not choosing obedience in the face of the fact we have received all things pertaining to godliness.

You are constructing a straw man argument. That shows a weak position from a scriptural basis.

You seem to be promoting a works based salvation which denies the blood of Jesus Christ as our only basis for salvation. And that can't be right.

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Romans 11:6
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Romans 4:5
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

We are saved just by faith alone in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Acts 16:30-31
30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

John 6:47
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

Vakeros
Nov 10th 2013, 09:55 PM
You are constructing a straw man argument. That shows a weak position from a scriptural basis.
You seem to be promoting a works based salvation which denies the blood of Jesus Christ as our only basis for salvation. And that can't be right.
No he isn't. You are. Nowhere has he posted that we are saved by works. However scripture teaches that we know someone by their fruit. The fruit is their works. James states the same, faith without works is DEAD. You CANNOT have faith without works.


Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
It is grace through faith that leads to us being saved. What we are highlighting is that faith isn't a once off occurrence but a continual living by faith. The past tense of saved is in accordance with faith which is based on His grace afforded to us through the cross. God's Riches At Christ's Expense. Hence the past tense is used. It has nothing to do with us making a decision once to live by faith and then no longer doing so.


Romans 11:6
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
This again doesn't removed the need to live by faith. God's work is salvation, our works are those He has prepared for us, which we cannot do without living by faith. However in the same manner, to NOT do the works He has for us is to deny Him.


Romans 4:5
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
We are saved just by faith alone in the Lord Jesus Christ.
We are saved because He has saved us. That was His work. He not only saves us, but justifies us and sanctifies us and glorifies us. That is ALL His work. Our simple response is to continue as we started, living by faith. You seem to see living by faith as somehow negating faith.


Acts 16:30-31
30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Note that the believeing is to be continued. You believe AND continue believing.


Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
John 6:47
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
Indeed, all of us who believe receive the power of God and His Spirit in us. Christ in us. Yet we must continue in faith.

Curtis
Nov 10th 2013, 10:46 PM
No he isn't. You are. Nowhere has he posted that we are saved by works. However scripture teaches that we know someone by their fruit. The fruit is their works. James states the same, faith without works is DEAD. You CANNOT have faith without works.


It is grace through faith that leads to us being saved. What we are highlighting is that faith isn't a once off occurrence but a continual living by faith. The past tense of saved is in accordance with faith which is based on His grace afforded to us through the cross. God's Riches At Christ's Expense. Hence the past tense is used. It has nothing to do with us making a decision once to live by faith and then no longer doing so.


This again doesn't removed the need to live by faith. God's work is salvation, our works are those He has prepared for us, which we cannot do without living by faith. However in the same manner, to NOT do the works He has for us is to deny Him.


We are saved because He has saved us. That was His work. He not only saves us, but justifies us and sanctifies us and glorifies us. That is ALL His work. Our simple response is to continue as we started, living by faith. You seem to see living by faith as somehow negating faith.


Note that the believeing is to be continued. You believe AND continue believing.

Indeed, all of us who believe receive the power of God and His Spirit in us. Christ in us. Yet we must continue in faith.

Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
Heb 10:13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Was Christs sacrifice on the cross good enough to save us for all time? Or are we suppose to do more to make up for what Jesus forgot to do?

Neanias
Nov 11th 2013, 01:54 AM
Christ has finished his work. He has made what was impossible for us possible. He has sacrificed his own self for the sins of all, so that all have the opportunity to enter the new covenant. By his sacrifice, he has made it possible for us to enter into grace where his power is enough to make us as he is.

What remains is for us to enter such a life and abide in it. We fool ourselves if use the fact that Christ has accomplished it all and completed it to say we do not need enter that reality.

Col. 1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled 22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: 23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; 24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:

Was Paul here wrong for saying we will be presented holy and unblameable IF we continue in the faith? Is Paul also a heretic?

What was missing for the sufferings of Christ? Did he not finish it all?

What is lacking is our participation in the same sufferings and thus the same life. Christ made available a life we could not make available for ourselves, he made available power to overcome that we could never have without him. That power is available now, but we will not be counted to walk in it for eternity if we now choose to walk away from it.

Neanias
Nov 11th 2013, 02:02 AM
You are constructing a straw man argument. That shows a weak position from a scriptural basis.

You seem to be promoting a works based salvation which denies the blood of Jesus Christ as our only basis for salvation. And that can't be right.

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Romans 11:6
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Romans 4:5
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

We are saved just by faith alone in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Acts 16:30-31
30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

John 6:47
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

You teach that we are given immunity from the consequence of sin while we are here still dead in our sins. You teach forgiveness apart from an opportunity to enter new life, justification apart from true repentance ('Let all who name the name of the Lord depart from iniquity').

You use many of the same words, but take all the power out of the gospel. On the one hand, the gospel is a call to a new source of life in Christ Jesus, that we would no longer follow the pattern of sin and death, but of Spirit and life, having the Spirit give life to our mortal bodies, on the other hand, you call men to an assurance of salvation while we remain in our sins.

Your gospel is a false gospel which leads many to perdition, because when the truth is presented them, they are already indoctrinated into their 'saved status', and are now unable to receive new life in Christ Jesus, thus receiving power to be conformed to him and pleasing to the Father.

SavedByGraceByFait
Nov 11th 2013, 02:06 AM
You teach that we are given immunity from the consequence of sin while we are here still dead in our sins. You teach forgiveness apart from an opportunity to enter new life, justification apart from true repentance ('Let all who name the name of the Lord depart from iniquity').

You use many of the same words, but take all the power out of the gospel. On the one hand, the gospel is a call to a new source of life in Christ Jesus, that we would no longer follow the pattern of sin and death, but of Spirit and life, having the Spirit give life to our mortal bodies, on the other hand, you call men to an assurance of salvation while we remain in our sins.

Your gospel is a false gospel which leads many to perdition, because when the truth is presented them, they are already indoctrinated into their 'saved status', and are now unable to receive new life in Christ Jesus, thus receiving power to be conformed to him and pleasing to the Father.

The gospel I have presented is the true gospel of salvation and the only one which saves.

episkopos
Nov 11th 2013, 02:09 AM
The gospel I have presented is the true gospel of salvation and the only one which saves.......

....a person according to his own opinion.

SavedByGraceByFait
Nov 11th 2013, 02:18 AM
....a person according to his own opinion.

Not by my opinion

But by the word of God Almighty

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Neanias
Nov 11th 2013, 02:47 AM
The gospel I have presented is the true gospel of salvation and the only one which saves.

You present a gospel in which we claim salvation today but never enter the power thereof... How much more then are your claims to salvation at the end of the age empty, and your presumed assurance empty.

You have a gospel where we are supposed to claim salvation today without walking in it, and salvation in eternity without walking in it today.

You speak many words, but no power, much presumption, but no fruit.

SavedByGraceByFait
Nov 11th 2013, 02:51 AM
You present a gospel in which we claim salvation today but never enter the power thereof... How much more then are your claims to salvation at the end of the age empty, and your presumed assurance empty.

You have a gospel where we are supposed to claim salvation today without walking in it, and salvation in eternity without walking in it today.

You speak many words, but no power, much presumption, but no fruit.

You must disagree with Jesus Christ then

John 6:47
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

Your post is just a straw man argument
That shows your position is weak

Neanias
Nov 11th 2013, 03:03 AM
You must disagree with Jesus Christ then

John 6:47
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

Your post is just a straw man argument
That shows your position is weak

Much to the opposite. I agree with him: if we believe with the kind of faith that moves mountains, we have everlasting life that empower us to be as he is.

Jesus said 'He who believes in me has everlasting life'.

Jesus said 'He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him' (John 14)

Jesus commanded 'Be ye perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect'.

Do you believe the first words that Jesus says, but not believe the rest?

Now there are two possibilities. Either Jesus is contradicting himself and saying on one occasion that we receive eternal salvation according to believing with our heads apart from obeying him, or he speaks of the same thing in every instance.

The scriptures here are in harmony. The kind of believing Jesus speaks of gives us everlasting life, that is, the power of endless life (Hebrews) which Jesus walks in, which now walking in this same life, we are capable of actually obeying him, and pleasing the Father. This everlasting life empowers us to follow the command: 'be ye perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect'.

Your gospel takes the first verse and completely ignores the other two.

SavedByGraceByFait
Nov 11th 2013, 03:12 AM
Much to the opposite. I agree with him: if we believe with the kind of faith that moves mountains, we have everlasting life that empower us to be as he is.

Jesus said 'He who believes in me has everlasting life'.

Jesus said 'He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him' (John 14)

Jesus commanded 'Be ye perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect'.

Do you believe the first words that Jesus says, but not believe the rest?

Now there are two possibilities. Either Jesus is contradicting himself and saying on one occasion that we receive eternal salvation according to believing with our heads apart from obeying him, or he speaks of the same thing in every instance.

The scriptures here are in harmony. The kind of believing Jesus speaks of gives us everlasting life, that is, the power of endless life (Hebrews) which Jesus walks in, which now walking in this same life, we are capable of actually obeying him, and pleasing the Father. This everlasting life empowers us to follow the command: 'be ye perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect'.

Your gospel takes the first verse and completely ignores the other two.

Are you perfect?
Do you always keep all of God's commandments perfectly?

Neanias
Nov 11th 2013, 03:33 AM
Are you perfect?
Do you always keep all of God's commandments perfectly?

I have not yet entered the perfection that is in Christ. :) Until then I seek Him, and to be found in Him, and to obey in whatever measure he has empowered me to obey.

I do not however put the fault for my falling short upon God, but upon myself. If I am not able to fully enter his provision today, it must be that I hold something back. So I pray God that he would unite my heart to fear Him, that I would learn to seek with all my heart, not just a part of it. Through the blood of the lamb we can overcome, so I do not put my lack of overcoming on the power that is available in Christ, but on my own lack of apprehending what I have been myself apprehended for.

Neanias
Nov 11th 2013, 03:35 AM
I have not yet entered the perfection that is in Christ. :) Until then I seek Him, and to be found in Him, and to obey in whatever measure he has empowered me to obey.

I do not however put the fault for my falling short upon God, but upon myself. If I am not able to fully enter his provision today, it must be that I hold something back. So I pray God that he would unite my heart to fear Him, that I would learn to seek with all my heart, not just a part of it. Through the blood of the lamb we can overcome, so I do not put my lack of overcoming on the power that is available in Christ, but on my own lack of apprehending what I have been myself apprehended for.

Paul explains what I mean more perfectly and in depth.

Phil. 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: 10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; 11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. 12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. 13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, 14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. 15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you. 16 Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.

Neanias
Nov 11th 2013, 03:37 AM
Paul explains what I mean more perfectly and in depth.

Phil. 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: 10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; 11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. 12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. 13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, 14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. 15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you. 16 Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.

So to the level I have already attained, I walk. At the same time, I strive forward to the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

SavedByGraceByFait
Nov 11th 2013, 11:34 AM
I have not yet entered the perfection that is in Christ. :) Until then I seek Him, and to be found in Him, and to obey in whatever measure he has empowered me to obey.

I do not however put the fault for my falling short upon God, but upon myself. If I am not able to fully enter his provision today, it must be that I hold something back. So I pray God that he would unite my heart to fear Him, that I would learn to seek with all my heart, not just a part of it. Through the blood of the lamb we can overcome, so I do not put my lack of overcoming on the power that is available in Christ, but on my own lack of apprehending what I have been myself apprehended for.

But then you are not doing what Jesus Christ commanded
'Be ye perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect'.

Why don't you believe Him?

But if you are not perfect as He commanded then salvation is not by that path.

It is just by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and His shed blood.

episkopos
Nov 11th 2013, 02:09 PM
But then you are not doing what Jesus Christ commanded
'Be ye perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect'.

Why don't you believe Him?

But if you are not perfect as He commanded then salvation is not by that path.

It is just by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and His shed blood.

Salvation is IN Christ. There is no other path that leaves out being EXACTLY as He is. No hypocrite (actor) who claims faith in Jesus for salvation will escape damnation.

Vakeros
Nov 11th 2013, 05:21 PM
It is just by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and His shed blood.
You are a very confused person.
It is indeed ONLY by faith - but what you say is you rely on your faith of the past, but have no faith in the present. If your faith is in the present, then you are living by faith and contradict your own arguments.
Note also that you keep raising the strawman argument about salvation. We are saved by faith, but we remain saved in the same way, by faith.
Where you additionally deny the gospel is that you don't accept that we must remain in the vine. Jesus stated as John recorded in John 15 that those who don't remain in Him are worthless and will be cast in to the fire. You teach that having once been in Him is enough. It isn't. It is a call to live in Him for the rest of your life.

Again you confuse the fact that ONLY those who live by faith, do the works that He would have us do. These works don't gain us salvation, they are simply the outworking of that salvation in us everyday.

SavedByGraceByFait
Nov 12th 2013, 12:00 AM
You are a very confused person.
It is indeed ONLY by faith - but what you say is you rely on your faith of the past, but have no faith in the present. If your faith is in the present, then you are living by faith and contradict your own arguments.
Note also that you keep raising the strawman argument about salvation. We are saved by faith, but we remain saved in the same way, by faith.
Where you additionally deny the gospel is that you don't accept that we must remain in the vine. Jesus stated as John recorded in John 15 that those who don't remain in Him are worthless and will be cast in to the fire. You teach that having once been in Him is enough. It isn't. It is a call to live in Him for the rest of your life.

Again you confuse the fact that ONLY those who live by faith, do the works that He would have us do. These works don't gain us salvation, they are simply the outworking of that salvation in us everyday.

You are just using a straw man argument. That means you have a weak position.

I do not say "you rely on your faith of the past" Please argue your on side and not mine.


The terms of salvation are crystal clear. Salvation is just by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and His shed blood. Once saved always saved.

It is God that declared it true. It is God that promised it and will be faithful to that promise. And it is the power of God that makes sure it will happen.

John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Vakeros
Nov 12th 2013, 12:13 AM
You are just using a straw man argument. That means you have a weak position.
I do not say "you rely on your faith of the past" Please argue your on side and not mine.
This isn't a strawman argument, but the very heart of the point. Are you living (at this present time) by faith? If you are and you recognise that this is how God demands you live your life then you are arguing against your own understanding.


The terms of salvation are crystal clear. Salvation is just by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and His shed blood. Once saved always saved.
It is God that declared it true. It is God that promised it and will be faithful to that promise. And it is the power of God that makes sure it will happen.
The terms of salvation are crystal clear. It is just through repentance and trusting the Lord Jesus Christ and His shed blood. Yet it is NOT once saved always saved. God declares that we need to repent. Jesus himself taught that. Have you repented? If so then you changed your direction and your mind to follow Him. Are you following Him? If not then you aren't saved. If you are then you are.


John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
I completely agree with this passage. You quoting makes zero difference because it says exactly what I am saying. Where you have a problem is in understanding that we believe (believeth) in (on) Him and as we do so we have assurance that we will not come into condemnation. We pass from death to life. Your trouble is that you don't understand the English Language and read an archaic form which you understand even less. The verb is in the present tense. We are called to live in the present by faith. We are NOT saved by our faith of yesterday. We are saved by His actions of yesteryear. He did it all in the past, so that we might have a future with Him.
The righteous shall live by faith.

SavedByGraceByFait
Nov 12th 2013, 01:08 AM
This isn't a strawman argument, but the very heart of the point. Are you living (at this present time) by faith? If you are and you recognise that this is how God demands you live your life then you are arguing against your own understanding.


The terms of salvation are crystal clear. It is just through repentance and trusting the Lord Jesus Christ and His shed blood. Yet it is NOT once saved always saved. God declares that we need to repent. Jesus himself taught that. Have you repented? If so then you changed your direction and your mind to follow Him. Are you following Him? If not then you aren't saved. If you are then you are.


I completely agree with this passage. You quoting makes zero difference because it says exactly what I am saying. Where you have a problem is in understanding that we believe (believeth) in (on) Him and as we do so we have assurance that we will not come into condemnation. We pass from death to life. Your trouble is that you don't understand the English Language and read an archaic form which you understand even less. The verb is in the present tense. We are called to live in the present by faith. We are NOT saved by our faith of yesterday. We are saved by His actions of yesteryear. He did it all in the past, so that we might have a future with Him.
The righteous shall live by faith.

It is indeed a straw man argument that you are presenting
Find any place where I said believing in the past
You straw man proves you have no position to stand on

The saved are saved forever by faith in Jesus Christ

Curtis
Nov 12th 2013, 03:13 AM
You are a very confused person.
It is indeed ONLY by faith - but what you say is you rely on your faith of the past, but have no faith in the present. If your faith is in the present, then you are living by faith and contradict your own arguments.
Note also that you keep raising the strawman argument about salvation. We are saved by faith, but we remain saved in the same way, by faith.
Where you additionally deny the gospel is that you don't accept that we must remain in the vine. Jesus stated as John recorded in John 15 that those who don't remain in Him are worthless and will be cast in to the fire. You teach that having once been in Him is enough. It isn't. It is a call to live in Him for the rest of your life.

Again you confuse the fact that ONLY those who live by faith, do the works that He would have us do. These works don't gain us salvation, they are simply the outworking of that salvation in us everyday.

What happens to me if I decide to go make me a peanut butter and jelly sandwich in my kitchen and while I am not continuously having faith because I am making my sand which, I die of a heart attack then what happens to me? Or what happens to me if while I am sleeping at night, and while I am sleeping I am not continuously having faith, and I die in my sleep. What happens then? Do I go to hell? If continuous faith was true then we need to change the scripture that says.....

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever continues to believe in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Slug1
Nov 12th 2013, 03:29 AM
There are some who just believe God and some who do not.

John 6:47
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.Believeth is a term of continued action. "Believes"... not believed.

Many accept Christ and fall away, they stop believing due to the reasons given to us in the Bible. We are even warned of a great apostasy where many will fall away from the faith.

A person who was never in the faith cannot fall away. ONLY those in faith can do what apostasy is all about. Those who are lost, those who are fake (tares) cannot fall away from the faith because they were never "in" the faith. They may have been present "with" those in the faith but they were not of the faith because they do not "ABIDE" in Christ. All they do is abide in a system of belief (religion) but the fact is clear, these tares cannot fall into apostasy by falling from "faith" in God, they were never in faith with God. Only those IN actual faith with God can fall away into apostasy.

When the great apostasy happens, there will be many falling away from faith. For those out in the world seeing what's going on... it's beginning too.

Vakeros
Nov 12th 2013, 10:33 AM
What happens to me if I decide to go make me a peanut butter and jelly sandwich in my kitchen and while I am not continuously having faith because I am making my sand which, I die of a heart attack then what happens to me? Or what happens to me if while I am sleeping at night, and while I am sleeping I am not continuously having faith, and I die in my sleep. What happens then? Do I go to hell? If continuous faith was true then we need to change the scripture that says.....

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever continues to believe in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Do you understand what it means to live by faith? Is making a sandwich causing you to lose faith? No living by faith is putting your trust in Him and then living that way day by day. You stop living by faith not when you make a sandwich or go to sleep, but when you stop trusting Him and instead deny Him. You start living by faith when you repent and accept Him as Lord and Saviour. You don't lose this faith unless you chose to deny Him. Just as choosing Him is your choice, so is denying Him.
We are told that He holds us in His hand. We remain there unless we decide to leave. We are told that even when we are faithless, He remains faithful for He can't deny Himself. It is ONLY when we deny Him that we stop living by faith. You don't deny Him because you make a sandwich or because you sleep. You sleep knowing that He is yours and you are His. If not then confess your sin, for He is faithful and just to forgive you your sin.
Now this does bring up the trickier question of whether you lose your faith when you sin. After all sin is a form of denying Christ. I think it is this very question which leads people to prefer a simple OSAS. Yet we are reminded daily to take up our cross. I don't believe sinning itself causes us to lose our salvation, but rather it is our attitude towards sin and thus towards God which can lose us our salvation. As it is written:
Rom 10:8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim);
Rom 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.

Therefore if your heart continues to believe and does not change from that belief, and you have made confession with your mouth, then you are saved.
OSAS teaches that once this has happened once, then what your mouth does no longer matters. It also teaches that what the heart believes no longer matters. Making a sandwich or sleeping doesn't change your heart. Therefore whatever state you were in BEFORE will remain the same. It is that we need our hearts to believe yesterday, today and tomorrow.

SavedByGraceByFait
Nov 12th 2013, 11:38 AM
Do you understand what it means to live by faith? Is making a sandwich causing you to lose faith? No living by faith is putting your trust in Him and then living that way day by day. You stop living by faith not when you make a sandwich or go to sleep, but when you stop trusting Him and instead deny Him. You start living by faith when you repent and accept Him as Lord and Saviour. You don't lose this faith unless you chose to deny Him. Just as choosing Him is your choice, so is denying Him.
We are told that He holds us in His hand. We remain there unless we decide to leave. We are told that even when we are faithless, He remains faithful for He can't deny Himself. It is ONLY when we deny Him that we stop living by faith. You don't deny Him because you make a sandwich or because you sleep. You sleep knowing that He is yours and you are His. If not then confess your sin, for He is faithful and just to forgive you your sin.
Now this does bring up the trickier question of whether you lose your faith when you sin. After all sin is a form of denying Christ. I think it is this very question which leads people to prefer a simple OSAS. Yet we are reminded daily to take up our cross. I don't believe sinning itself causes us to lose our salvation, but rather it is our attitude towards sin and thus towards God which can lose us our salvation. As it is written:
Rom 10:8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim);
Rom 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.

Therefore if your heart continues to believe and does not change from that belief, and you have made confession with your mouth, then you are saved.
OSAS teaches that once this has happened once, then what your mouth does no longer matters. It also teaches that what the heart believes no longer matters. Making a sandwich or sleeping doesn't change your heart. Therefore whatever state you were in BEFORE will remain the same. It is that we need our hearts to believe yesterday, today and tomorrow.

You have a false gospel of self effort. The scripture is quite clear that we are saved forever just by faith and not of ourselves.

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

BrianW
Nov 12th 2013, 01:01 PM
Thread closed. Please continue the discussion in this thread.

http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php/251586-What-does-it-mean-to-believe-on-the-Lord-Jesus-Christ?p=3070600#post3070600