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View Full Version : How Much of Jesus' Divine Power Did He Shed in Coming as a Man?



Eyelog
Nov 8th 2013, 05:00 PM
Jesus could not be an example to us for us to follow in His footsteps if He was walking around as God, in God’s obvious inherent power and authority. Nor could He simply disguise Himself as a man and be fitting as an example to us. Though He retained His identity as God
and could take up His divine power and authority at any moment (“at My disposal more than twelve legions of angels ” Matthew 26:53), He took the form of an actual human, and as a man He showed us how we mere humans are supposed to operate in faith. The fact that He bothered
to make Himself a human demonstrates that He really was leaving us an example, that we regenerate-types would walk in His footsteps. John 13:15; 1 Corinthians 11:1.

As such, Jesus operated out of His good character, His human willpower, His knowledge of God and the Scriptures, His faith in what the Father was promising Him, and at times out of the power of the Spirit. But He did many things without the help of the Spirit, most notably, going to the Cross.

What are your views on this?

episkopos
Nov 8th 2013, 05:12 PM
Jesus could not be an example to us for us to follow in His footsteps if He was walking around as God, in God’s obvious inherent power and authority. Nor could He simply disguise Himself as a man and be fitting as an example to us. Though He retained His identity as God


Jesus Christ forsook His identity as God in order to be permanently joined to His own creation. He abdicated so to speak. He gave up His position...





and could take up His divine power and authority at any moment (“at My disposal more than twelve legions of angels ” Matthew 26:53),


If He wished He could have returned to His former identity by cancelling ..or abdicating....what He had previously abdicated from. But then all the benefits to His creation would have been lost.


He took the form of an actual human, and as a man He showed us how we mere humans are supposed to operate in faith. The fact that He bothered
to make Himself a human demonstrates that He really was leaving us an example, that we regenerate-types would walk in His footsteps. John 13:15; 1 Corinthians 11:1.


Exactly!



As such, Jesus operated out of His good character, His human willpower, His knowledge of God and the Scriptures, His faith in what the Father was promising Him, and at times out of the power of the Spirit. But He did many things without the help of the Spirit, most notably, going to the Cross.

Here you go too far. Jesus came precisely because men can't do anything without being spiritually strengthened through Christ. Jesus did not come to prove the flesh has the ability to overcome. He proved that through HIM we can overcome while still in this flesh. He brings to men the divine nature and the anointing to do as He did. But it is done in the Spirit....not according to the flesh.

Francis Drake
Nov 8th 2013, 05:12 PM
Jesus could not be an example to us for us to follow in His footsteps if He was walking around as God, in God’s obvious inherent power and authority. Nor could He simply disguise Himself as a man and be fitting as an example to us. Though He retained His identity as God
and could take up His divine power and authority at any moment (“at My disposal more than twelve legions of angels ” Matthew 26:53), He took the form of an actual human, and as a man He showed us how we mere humans are supposed to operate in faith. The fact that He bothered
to make Himself a human demonstrates that He really was leaving us an example, that we regenerate-types would walk in His footsteps. John 13:15; 1 Corinthians 11:1.

As such, Jesus operated out of His good character, His human willpower, His knowledge of God and the Scriptures, His faith in what the Father was promising Him, and at times out of the power of the Spirit. But He did many things without the help of the Spirit, most notably, going to the Cross.

What are your views on this?

Yes, amen.
The only miracle power that Jesus used was that which he got when the Holy Spirit was poured out on him. Like you have said, if Jesus walked in his God head power, then he could not be our example.

He said, "greater than this shall you do."
Sadly theologians have been working furiously ever since the death of the apostles to prove that we cannot do these things that Jesus promised.
Be it unto us according to our faith, or lack of it.

Bnjmn
Nov 8th 2013, 05:22 PM
As such, Jesus operated out of His good character, His human willpower, His knowledge of God and the Scriptures, His faith in what the Father was promising Him, and at times out of the power of the Spirit. But He did many things without the help of the Spirit, most notably, going to the Cross.

What are your views on this?

Christ did many miracles while on earth. He did not do those without using his Heavenly powers, or without the strength of God. Going to the cross, was done because it was what God wanted him to do. He could have easily taken himself out of that position if it was HIS decision. He begged God to take that from him, because he did not want to go through with what he knew was coming. God gave him the strength to do what needed to be done.

sooninzion
Nov 8th 2013, 05:32 PM
Jesus could not be an example to us for us to follow in His footsteps if He was walking around as God, in God’s obvious inherent power and authority.

What are your views on this?


He grew up before HIM like a tender shoot, like a root out of dry ground.

He had no beauty or majesty that attracted us to him; nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.

He was despised and rejected by mankind; a man of sorrows full of suffering and pain

... and we held him in LOW ESTEEM!

I think he carried it out in his own wisdom, desiring to keep the heavenly secrets precious and revealing those secrets only to whom his Father is pleased with.

We can endlessly argue on anything we call 'BIBLICAL' I still maintain that the KEYS to the REVELATIONARY KNOWLEDGE of the SECRETS of the KINGDOM of GOD is still in his hands and is very safe. Not one who has an iota of disbelief finds it.

Who will not believe if God walks with them in HIS OWN HEAVENLY SPLENDOUR?!!!

Curtis
Nov 8th 2013, 06:06 PM
Jesus could not be an example to us for us to follow in His footsteps if He was walking around as God, in God’s obvious inherent power and authority. Nor could He simply disguise Himself as a man and be fitting as an example to us. Though He retained His identity as God
and could take up His divine power and authority at any moment (“at My disposal more than twelve legions of angels ” Matthew 26:53), He took the form of an actual human, and as a man He showed us how we mere humans are supposed to operate in faith. The fact that He bothered
to make Himself a human demonstrates that He really was leaving us an example, that we regenerate-types would walk in His footsteps. John 13:15; 1 Corinthians 11:1.

As such, Jesus operated out of His good character, His human willpower, His knowledge of God and the Scriptures, His faith in what the Father was promising Him, and at times out of the power of the Spirit. But He did many things without the help of the Spirit, most notably, going to the Cross.

What are your views on this?

Jesus never moved with out the Father guiding him by his Spirit. Jesus emptying himself by becoming a man is in the fact he never used his power to comfort himself in his mission or he could not have been a faithful High Priest. He did comfort others but not himself. To say Jesus sometimes did not walk in the power of the Spirit is not smart.

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Aviyah
Nov 8th 2013, 06:35 PM
Do you think that I cannot appeal to my Father, and he will at once send me more than twelve legions of angels? (Mt. 26:53)

Eyelog
Nov 8th 2013, 06:59 PM
Jesus did not come to prove the flesh has the ability to overcome. He proved that through HIM we can overcome while still in this flesh. He brings to men the divine nature and the anointing to do as He did. But it is done in the Spirit....not according to the flesh.

Episkopos, let's say by flesh you mean sarx, the sin nature. And by body, you mean soma, the physical body.

Are you saying Jesus didn't come to prove the sarx has the ability to overcome, or the soma has the ability to overcome?

episkopos
Nov 8th 2013, 07:12 PM
Episkopos, let's say by flesh you mean sarx, the sin nature. And by body, you mean soma, the physical body.

Are you saying Jesus didn't come to prove the sarx has the ability to overcome, or the soma has the ability to overcome?

Who was the law written to? How many were made perfect through the law?

Neither sarx nor soma can overcome...otherwise the law would have sufficed. We can only overcome by abiding in Christ.

Most people think that no overcoming is possible even in Christ while we live in this flesh. This shows that few know anything at all about actually abiding in Christ. But the testimony remains...he who abides in Christ triumphs over all sin. The rest is details...

Eyelog
Nov 8th 2013, 07:24 PM
Who was the law written to? How many were made perfect through the law?

Neither sarx nor soma can overcome...otherwise the law would have sufficed. We can only overcome by abiding in Christ.

Most people think that no overcoming is possible even in Christ while we live in this flesh. This shows that few know anything at all about actually abiding in Christ. But the testimony remains...he who abides in Christ triumphs over all sin. The rest is details...

Although Christ’s first purpose in coming to earth and shedding His deific qualities and powers was to pay the sin penalty on the Cross for us, His second purpose in becoming one of us was for the specific purpose of showing us how to live this life in human obedience to the Father.

As Jesus hung on the Cross, the Spirit of the Father departed from Him. He cried out in Aramaic with a loud voice, “'ELOI, ELOI, LAMA SABACHTHANI?' which is
translated, ‘MY GOD, MY GOD, WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME?’” Mark 15:34. This exclamation proves Jesus did not obey the Father on the Cross through the power of the Holy Spirit, or even through the fellowship of the Spirit. These departed from Him. Indeed, He did not raise Himself, but the Father had to raise Him, because Jesus really died a human death. Acts 5:30; Romans 6:4; 1 Corinthians 6:14; Ephesians 1:19-21; Galatians 1:1.

Nor did Jesus obey His Father to endure the Cross unto death by the power of His innate deity or the fact that by identity He was God. As Paul says, “although He existed in the form of God, "[He] emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.” Philippians 2:6-7. Why? In part to be the right kind of sacrifice for the sins of the world. Hebrews 2:9-18. But the overarching purpose of Jesus becoming a mortal human was so He could leave us an example, “that you should follow in his steps.” 1 Peter 2:21.

What kept Jesus hanging up there on the Cross was not love for the world, but obedient love for the Father, coupled with faith in His Father. As an eye witness, Peter, reports, “while suffering, He uttered no threats, but kept entrusting Himself to Him who judges righteously.” 1 Peter 2:23. As the Hebrews writer put it, “He offered up both prayers and supplications with loud crying and tears to the One able to save Him from death, and He was heard because of His piety.” Hebrews 5:7.

Jesus obeyed the Father by faith while He was on the Cross, not by His divine power, nor by the power of the Spirit.

Curtis
Nov 8th 2013, 07:46 PM
Although Christ’s first purpose in coming to earth and shedding His deific qualities and powers was to pay the sin penalty on the Cross for us, His second purpose in becoming one of us was for the specific purpose of showing us how to live this life in human obedience to the Father.

As Jesus hung on the Cross, the Spirit of the Father departed from Him. He cried out in Aramaic with a loud voice, “'ELOI, ELOI, LAMA SABACHTHANI?' which is
translated, ‘MY GOD, MY GOD, WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME?’” Mark 15:34. This exclamation proves Jesus did not obey the Father on the Cross through the power of the Holy Spirit, or even through the fellowship of the Spirit. These departed from Him. Indeed, He did not raise Himself, but the Father had to raise Him, because Jesus really died a human death. Acts 5:30; Romans 6:4; 1 Corinthians 6:14; Ephesians 1:19-21; Galatians 1:1.

Nor did Jesus obey His Father to endure the Cross unto death by the power of His innate deity or the fact that by identity He was God. As Paul says, “although He existed in the form of God, "[He] emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.” Philippians 2:6-7. Why? In part to be the right kind of sacrifice for the sins of the world. Hebrews 2:9-18. But the overarching purpose of Jesus becoming a mortal human was so He could leave us an example, “that you should follow in his steps.” 1 Peter 2:21.

What kept Jesus hanging up there on the Cross was not love for the world, but obedient love for the Father, coupled with faith in His Father. As an eye witness, Peter, reports, “while suffering, He uttered no threats, but kept entrusting Himself to Him who judges righteously.” 1 Peter 2:23. As the Hebrews writer put it, “He offered up both prayers and supplications with loud crying and tears to the One able to save Him from death, and He was heard because of His piety.” Hebrews 5:7

Jesus obeyed the Father by faith while He was on the Cross, not by His divine power, nor by the power of the Spirit.

Jesus offered himself through the eternal Spirit on the cross. His ability to overcome the pain and shame of being crucified was by the fact he kept his eyes on the joy that was set before him.
His joy was us, his Church that were living in him. He did it for us. In excatly the same way we overcome by keeping our eyes fixed on Jesus who is our joy.


Heb 9:14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God.

Heb 12:1 Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,
Heb 12:2 looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.

Eyelog
Nov 8th 2013, 07:54 PM
Jesus offered himself through the eternal Spirit on the cross. His ability to overcome the pain and shame of being crucified was by the fact he kept his eyes on the joy that was set before him.
His joy was us, his Church that were living in him. He did it for us. In excatly the same way we overcome by keeping our eyes fixed on Jesus who is our joy.


Heb 9:14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God.

Heb 12:1 Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,
Heb 12:2 looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.

Excellent citations, Curtis. I wonder what that means, though, as to "through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish". The emphasis there seems to be on being able to be without sin due to the eternal Spirit. You agree?

Eyelog
Nov 8th 2013, 08:02 PM
His ability to overcome the pain and shame of being crucified was by the fact he kept his eyes on the joy that was set before him.
His joy was us, his Church that were living in him. He did it for us. In excatly the same way we overcome by keeping our eyes fixed on Jesus who is our joy...

Heb 12:2 looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.

Through the desire and expectation of what God was Promising Him, Jesus was hoping in the Father, and He found His exultation, His joy, His gladness of Heart in praising His Father for it, even as He anticipated His suffering. He may have praised Him that way even as He endured it. It was this kind of joy and peace in reliance on the Promise of His Father, in the face of the world going to Hell in a hand basket, that demonstrated the greatest faith of Jesus. That was Jesus Walking by Faith in the Promises of God.

Eyelog
Nov 8th 2013, 08:04 PM
His joy was us, his Church that were living in him. He did it for us.

Do you have Scripture, Curtis, that says Jesus went to the Cross for us, His church, or out of His love for us?

I tentatively believe His joy in the face of His trial and testing was what the Father promised Him, i.e., the Kingdom, not His love for people.

Curtis
Nov 8th 2013, 08:25 PM
Do you have Scripture, Curtis, that says Jesus went to the Cross for us, His church, or out of His love for us?

I tentatively believe His joy in the face of His trial and testing was what the Father promised Him, i.e., the Kingdom, not His love for people.

It was his desire to do the Fathers will for sure, I don't think he was jumping up and down because of it though. The thing he wanted was his Church, and it was residing on the inside of him. That was his real joy that caused him to endure the cross. Jesus did not look at what was happening to him, but what would be the consequence of his death in bringing us unto the Father.

Isa 53:10 Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for guilt, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
Isa 53:11 Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied; by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their iniquities. (ESV)

Eyelog
Nov 8th 2013, 08:29 PM
It was his desire to do the Fathers will for sure, I don't think he was jumping up and down because of it though. The thing he wanted was his Church, and it was residing on the inside of him. That was his real joy that caused him to endure the cross. Jesus did not look at what was happening to him, but what would be the consequence of his death in bringing us unto the Father.

Isa 53:10 Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for guilt, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
Isa 53:11 Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied; by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their iniquities. (ESV)

See, it's tough to find Scripture that Jesus went to the Cross out of the love for the World. Jn 3:16 was the Father's big idea. When we encounter Christ at Gethsemane, He isn't talking about His beloved church. He is talking about letting the cup pass Him by if at all possible. He did not want to suffer and die.

Curtis
Nov 8th 2013, 08:36 PM
See, it's tough to find Scripture that Jesus went to the Cross out of the love for the World. Jn 3:16 was the Father's big idea. When we encounter Christ at Gethsemane, He isn't talking about His beloved church. He is talking about letting the cup pass Him by if at all possible. He did not want to suffer and die.

I agree, He knew the pain, and shame it was going to bring. It was from his human nature that really brought home the reality of what was about to happen to him. If he was walking in the flesh who knows what would have happened. The astounding part was Jesus did not use any of his divine power to soften the effects of his suffering. Now he knows what we go through...

Bnjmn
Nov 8th 2013, 08:53 PM
Who was the law written to? How many were made perfect through the law?

Neither sarx nor soma can overcome...otherwise the law would have sufficed. We can only overcome by abiding in Christ.

Most people think that no overcoming is possible even in Christ while we live in this flesh. This shows that few know anything at all about actually abiding in Christ. But the testimony remains...he who abides in Christ triumphs over all sin. The rest is details...


No one was made perfect. There are no perfect people but Christ.

episkopos
Nov 8th 2013, 09:14 PM
No one was made perfect. There are no perfect people but Christ.

You are testifying to a powerless transformation from sin to sin. But this is not found in the bible.

Heb_12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Bnjmn
Nov 8th 2013, 09:37 PM
You are testifying to a powerless transformation from sin to sin. But this is not found in the bible.

Heb_12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God
Psalm 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray from birth, speaking lies.


Man (Adam) was made perfect. Then he fell. He and Eve sinned. All are born sinners. Born with the sinful seed of Adam.

We were all made perfect, in the sense that we have been formed exactly how God wanted us.

Neanias
Nov 8th 2013, 10:22 PM
To say that all have sinned is true. To say that all continue all their lives sinning is not. We see both of these realities one after another in John's letter, which people often confuse.

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. 6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. 7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

It does not take great wisdom or spiritual insight to see the fallen nature of man, that we have all sinned. Anyone honestly comparing himself to the witness of the Bible, looking in the mirror so to speak, can perceive it. But it requires faith to believe and enter the new life in Christ where there is power to overcome and be as he his.

Neanias
Nov 8th 2013, 10:34 PM
Hebrews 2: 10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. 11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

Christ was made perfect through sufferings.

1 Peter 2: 21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: 22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:

We are called to the fellowship of his sufferings, to suffer as he did.

1 Peter 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; 2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

When we share his sufferings, as suffer as he did, we follow the same pattern and are perfected in Him. This is what we are called to. He was just as human as we are. If we follow the same pattern, we also, by the life of the Spirit in us, bear the same fruit, yet not us, Christ in us.

episkopos
Nov 8th 2013, 11:08 PM
Romans 3:23 For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God
Psalm 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray from birth, speaking lies.


Man (Adam) was made perfect. Then he fell. He and Eve sinned. All are born sinners. Born with the sinful seed of Adam.

We were all made perfect, in the sense that we have been formed exactly how God wanted us.

...then Jesus came and restored man to fellowship with God again through a new creation that is without sin.

Eyelog
Nov 8th 2013, 11:11 PM
To say that all have sinned is true. To say that all continue all their lives sinning is not. ... 6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: ... enter the new life in Christ where there is power to overcome and be as he his.

Excellent exposition, brother.

However, I have gotten into it with Episkopos regarding his definition of Abiding in Christ as only walking in the Spirit, what he calls walking in Zion.

I acknowledge we can do this, but it is a moment to moment phenomenon and does not cause complete consistency, for that reason.

Moreover, we truly can abide and stop sinning using our human bodies and faculties, by setting the mind on the things of Spirit, walking by faith in His promises and walking in the Spirit, all of which are means Jesus used to obey the Father.

Bnjmn
Nov 8th 2013, 11:11 PM
...then Jesus came and restored man to fellowship with God again through a new creation that is without sin.

Jesus came so that we could be forgiven. Not for us to be perfect. No one lives a perfect life but Christ.

episkopos
Nov 8th 2013, 11:14 PM
Jesus came so that we could be forgiven. Not for us to be perfect. No one lives a perfect life but Christ.

Christianity is not a granting of immunity to sin. The devil has a version of Christianity that has become very popular with those who believe only in a powerlessness to sin. Where is the faith of Christ?

Bnjmn
Nov 9th 2013, 01:07 AM
Christianity is not a granting of immunity to sin. The devil has a version of Christianity that has become very popular with those who believe only in a powerlessness to sin. Where is the faith of Christ?

We are all powerless to sin. We all depend on the strength of God to over come our sinful desires and lives, and the forgiveness of Christ for when we do sin.

ewq1938
Nov 9th 2013, 01:36 AM
How Much of Jesus' Divine Power Did He Shed in Coming as a Man?

God does not discuss this in scripture. Answers would be speculative for the most part.

The only limitation I can recall scripture providing is that Christ did not know when his second return would be. I assume he knows it now.

Watchman
Nov 9th 2013, 02:10 AM
Jesus sacrificed all His divinity to become man. The power He had was given Him from our Father, just as were the words He spoke and the deeds He did. He lived a life of total dependence upon our Father...just as we are called to do.

blessings,

Watchman

chad
Nov 9th 2013, 02:18 AM
We know Jesus had:

Authority over demons,
Authority to heal the sick and raise the dead
Authority to perform miracles:- Walk on water, turn water to wine, calm storms, Break bread and fish and multiply them to feed thousands.
Authority to forgive sins
Authority to Teach
The authority to lay down his life for us and to live a sin free life, so that he could pay the price for our sins on the cross.


Athough he gave up some of his power to become flesh and speak to us and lay down his life for us as a teacher/servant, he still had authority over many things.



Jesus could not be an example to us for us to follow in His footsteps if He was walking around as God, in God’s obvious inherent power and authority. Nor could He simply disguise Himself as a man and be fitting as an example to us. Though He retained His identity as God
and could take up His divine power and authority at any moment (“at My disposal more than twelve legions of angels ” Matthew 26:53), He took the form of an actual human, and as a man He showed us how we mere humans are supposed to operate in faith. The fact that He bothered
to make Himself a human demonstrates that He really was leaving us an example, that we regenerate-types would walk in His footsteps. John 13:15; 1 Corinthians 11:1.

As such, Jesus operated out of His good character, His human willpower, His knowledge of God and the Scriptures, His faith in what the Father was promising Him, and at times out of the power of the Spirit. But He did many things without the help of the Spirit, most notably, going to the Cross.

What are your views on this?

Protective Angel
Nov 9th 2013, 03:00 AM
Jesus could not be an example to us for us to follow in His footsteps if He was walking around as God, in God’s obvious inherent power and authority. Nor could He simply disguise Himself as a man and be fitting as an example to us. Though He retained His identity as God
and could take up His divine power and authority at any moment (“at My disposal more than twelve legions of angels ” Matthew 26:53), He took the form of an actual human, and as a man He showed us how we mere humans are supposed to operate in faith. The fact that He bothered
to make Himself a human demonstrates that He really was leaving us an example, that we regenerate-types would walk in His footsteps. John 13:15; 1 Corinthians 11:1.

As such, Jesus operated out of His good character, His human willpower, His knowledge of God and the Scriptures, His faith in what the Father was promising Him, and at times out of the power of the Spirit. But He did many things without the help of the Spirit, most notably, going to the Cross.

What are your views on this?

Jesus is God.

What would indicate that Jesus never had the same power as God?

Who did he tell, that if they had enough faith they could command the mountain to move and it would? Could Jesus have moved a mountain?

Peter had enough faith to walk on water, til he took his eyes off Jesus.

Jesus is the example. He did not use all his power available for a reason. To be human. He could have brought angels to help him, but he didn't.

He prayed to his father that we would be all one with him.



The more I learn about the Bible, the more I realize that we are to be like Jesus. The example is him. Some say he sacrificed himself, but really he gave himself freely, just as we are supposed to do. Give our lives up, to do Gods work. It's his will be done, not ours.

ewq1938
Nov 9th 2013, 03:01 AM
Jesus sacrificed all His divinity to become man. The power He had was given Him from our Father, just as were the words He spoke and the deeds He did.

That doesn't mean Jesus sacrificed all his Divinity to become man especially given that he claimed to be God and others called him God. He sacrificed none of his Divinity to become a man.

episkopos
Nov 9th 2013, 12:48 PM
We are all powerless to sin. We all depend on the strength of God to over come our sinful desires and lives, and the forgiveness of Christ for when we do sin.

1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Eyelog
Nov 9th 2013, 12:55 PM
1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

The regenerate human is now alive to the things of God, and they are no longer foolishness to him.

Such a one can obey God through ordinary human obedience because he is conscious of God, because he is aware of the commands of Christ, because he has immersed himself in the mind of Christ (the things of the Spirit), because he hopes in the promises of his God (desires the payoff and expects to receive it), and if he utilizes his human faculties while walking in the Spirit in order to obey every lead, every whisper, every nudge and every step of the Holy Spirit.

Human faculties are necessary to obey God, no matter how you describe the strengthening and leading process.

The challenge is to put off what belongs to the old man so one can take up what belongs to the new man. The faculties of man have been freed to do so, and to operate in and as the new man.

episkopos
Nov 9th 2013, 01:50 PM
The regenerate human is now alive to the things of God, and they are no longer foolishness to him.

Such a one can obey God through ordinary human obedience because he is conscious of God, because he is aware of the commands of Christ, because he has immersed himself in the mind of Christ (the things of the Spirit), because he hopes in the promises of his God (desires the payoff and expects to receive it), and if he utilizes his human faculties while walking in the Spirit in order to obey every lead, every whisper, every nudge and every step of the Holy Spirit.

A person who walks in his own strength and who seeks to be obedient to the commands of the Lord is justified IF he doesn't make foolish claims about how saved he is for doing good.


Human faculties are necessary to obey God, no matter how you describe the strengthening and leading process.

What is the origin of the prompting. If I had a dime for every believer who tried getting me to just DO something for God...from a scheme they dreamed up.


The challenge is to put off what belongs to the old man so one can take up what belongs to the new man. The faculties of man have been freed to do so, and to operate in and as the new man.

We are not the new man...I think you mean the new creation...and that is only possible if we abide in (under) the new Man who is created already in holiness.


So we have the Christ in us...which isn't us. Then we have a covering fashioned in the likeness of Jesus...which is not us. Then there is the feeble us. Wisdom dictates that we need both the inner light and the outer anointing in order to walk as Jesus walked. That is our calling....to abide in Christ and bear fruit for God.

Eyelog
Nov 9th 2013, 01:55 PM
A person who walks in his own strength and who seeks to be obedient to the commands of the Lord is justified IF he doesn't make foolish claims about how saved he is for doing good.



What is the origin of the prompting. If I had a dime for every believer who tried getting me to just DO something for God...from a scheme they dreamed up.


We are not the new man...I think you mean the new creation...and that is only possible if we abide in (under) the new Man who is created already in holiness.


So we have the Christ in us...which isn't us. Then we have a covering fashioned in the likeness of Jesus...which is not us. Then there is the feeble us. Wisdom dictates that we need both the inner light and the outer anointing in order to walk as Jesus walked. That is our calling....to abide in Christ and bear fruit for God.

Say it that way, and I agree with you. Start claiming the born again operate only out of "corruptible flesh" or the "natural man", and I will disagree. The same human faculties are in play, but they are enlivened by the regeneration, and they do partake of the things of God now. Moreover, we use them to overcome what in our heart still belongs to the old self. Are we to become the new anthropos in our character? Absolutely. You yourself do not consistently walk in the Spirit, but to the extent you have developed the character of the new self, of Christ Himself, you more consistently walk in the Spirit.

episkopos
Nov 9th 2013, 02:15 PM
Say it that way, and I agree with you. Start claiming the born again operate only out of "corruptible flesh" or the "natural man", and I will disagree. The same human faculties are in play, but they are enlivened by the regeneration, and they do partake of the things of God now. Moreover, we use them to overcome what in our heart still belongs to the old self. Are we to become the new anthropos in our character? Absolutely. You yourself do not consistently walk in the Spirit, but to the extent you have developed the character of the new self, of Christ Himself, you more consistently walk in the Spirit.

Not in the Spirit but AFTER the Spirit. A person can walk IN the Spirit at any stage of the Christian walk. But as you said, we are not necessarily always filled with the Spirit (although we can be ). It is the impression this divine walk has on us in our characters that contributes to our growth into the likeness of Christ. Maturity is seen in the humility and fear of the Lord of the person who knows he is absent (temporarily) from the presence of God (if that is the case). Immaturity is seen in the smugness and the foolishness of taking a legalistic approach to things of the Spirit.

There is a difference between purity and maturity.

Eyelog
Nov 9th 2013, 02:53 PM
Not in the Spirit but AFTER the Spirit. A person can walk IN the Spirit at any stage of the Christian walk. But as you said, we are not necessarily always filled with the Spirit (although we can be ). It is the impression this divine walk has on us in our characters that contributes to our growth into the likeness of Christ. Maturity is seen in the humility and fear of the Lord of the person who knows he is absent (temporarily) from the presence of God (if that is the case). Immaturity is seen in the smugness and the foolishness of taking a legalistic approach to things of the Spirit.

There is a difference between purity and maturity.

I again agree if you say it that way, except that we can grow in character to a large degree by setting our Minds on the things of the Spirit with full immersion. We can grow in character as we overcome sin, temptation, loss and affliction by walking in faith on His promises. We can also undergo a thoroughgoing repentance process and grow immensely in our character, but I agree that to some extent we must also grow through walking in the Spirit.

Is this coming off as smug?

episkopos
Nov 9th 2013, 02:59 PM
I again agree if you say it that way, except that we can grow in character to a large degree by setting our Minds on the things of the Spirit with full immersion. We can grow in character as we overcome sin, temptation, loss and affliction by walking in faith on His promises. We can also undergo a thoroughgoing repentance process and grow immensely in our character, but I agree that to some extent we must also grow through walking in the Spirit.

Is this coming off as smug?

God is the judge of that, not I. We should seek after the walk in the Spirit. It is the provision of God that causes us to make war with the present state of the world. We are to be a kingdom people. Otherwise we are to be humble and God fearing.

episkopos
Nov 9th 2013, 03:38 PM
The provision of God makes us war with the present state of the world.

Please explain why you said that.

So far as being kingdom people, you don't believe many believers are, do you.

Very very few believers understand the nature of the kingdom of God. Most have been brought into a relationship with the church...but not a direct connection to God. We are seeing an improvement concerning this but the gospel message is still misunderstood as a message of personal salvation into a "saved" status for those who claim Jesus as their personal Savior. But how much of what people think about what Christianity is know anything about the kingdom of God?

episkopos
Nov 9th 2013, 04:00 PM
Please, brother, extol it here and now. I think it is highly relevant to the OP. ... what's not? LOL

Whenever I have posted about the kingdom and the community of the saints in the Spirit...the thread dies due to a lack of interest.

Eyelog
Nov 10th 2013, 08:19 PM
Whenever I have posted about the kingdom and the community of the saints in the Spirit...the thread dies due to a lack of interest.

I think your view on this is as follows:


#287 Imputed Righteousness thread: There are greatest and least in the kingdom. Not everybody that sits in a pew on sunday will be in the bride of Christ. Many will cease to be faithful, and many will be rejected. Many are called but few are elected.