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Nick
Nov 9th 2013, 05:58 AM
This is the clearest passage that suggests God created Christ. The Septuagint translation of 8:22 was read to them to mean, "the Lord created me". Wisdom in Proverbs 8 seems to be a personality (Christ) by which God made the world.

“The Lord possessed[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Prov%208&version=ESV#fen-ESV-16625b)] me at the beginning of his work,[c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Prov%208&version=ESV#fen-ESV-16625c)]
the first of his acts of old.
23 Ages ago I was set up,
at the first, before the beginning of the earth.
24 When there were no depths I was brought forth,
when there were no springs abounding with water.
25 Before the mountains had been shaped,
before the hills, I was brought forth,
26 before he had made the earth with its fields,
or the first of the dust of the world.
27 When he established the heavens, I was there;
when he drew a circle on the face of the deep,
28 when he made firm the skies above,
when he established[d (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Prov%208&version=ESV#fen-ESV-16631d)] the fountains of the deep,
29 when he assigned to the sea its limit,
so that the waters might not transgress his command,
when he marked out the foundations of the earth,
30 then I was beside him, like a master workman,
and I was daily his[e (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Prov%208&version=ESV#fen-ESV-16633e)] delight,
rejoicing before him always,
31 rejoicing in his inhabited world
and delighting in the children of man.

exitludos
Nov 9th 2013, 06:02 AM
God's wisdom is being personified, as a figure of speech. She is also a she; Jesus is a he. If you read all of Proverbs, this personification figure of speech is easy to recognize. Especially when we read about Wisdom's opposite, Folly, who is personified as well, as a woman who brings death.

See Proverbs 3.13-20, where the author tells how 'She is a tree of life', and how God created the world 'by Wisdom', that is, 'by his knowledge'.

Jesus also distinguishes himself from Lady Wisdom in Matthew 11.19.

Nick
Nov 9th 2013, 06:25 AM
God's wisdom is being personified, as a figure of speech. She is also a she; Jesus is a he. If you read all of Proverbs, this personification figure of speech is easy to recognize. Especially when we read about Wisdom's opposite, Folly, who is personified as well, as a woman who brings death.

See Proverbs 3.13-20, where the author tells how 'She is a tree of life', and how God created the world 'by Wisdom', that is, 'by his knowledge'.

That's what I'm doing - one Prov per day for each day of the month since there are 31 Proverbs. Today being the 8th corresponded to a study of Prov 8 where this nugget was uncovered. Proverbs 8 seems to have played a role the NT writings such as Col 1:17 "And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together."

The Tree of life is an expression of a metaphor referring to temporal and spiritual renewal and refreshment.

Here's the ESV note:

Prov. 3:18 The tree of life first appears in Genesis (Gen. 2:9; 3:22, 24) and is referred to as if it had the effect of confirming a person in his moral state (see esp. Gen. 3:22). Through obedience, Adam and Eve would have had continued access to the tree and would have been confirmed in an unblemished state, but upon disobedience they were mercifully removed from the garden to keep from being confirmed in a state of guilt. This helps explain the image in Proverbs: the things that are called a “tree of life” are pictured as means by which the righteous continue on and are further confirmed in the way that is blessed in the end (cf. Prov. 11:30; 13:12; 15:4). The tree appears again in Revelation with a similar function of confirming in holiness those who conquer (see Rev. 2:7; 22:2, 14, 19).

ewq1938
Nov 9th 2013, 07:27 AM
Christ was not created, he is God and is eternal just as his Father is.


Gen 17:1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

Joh 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
Joh 8:57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Jesus appeared to Abraham long before he was born into flesh. He had his own form, his own body.


1Ti 6:14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
1Ti 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Jeses has immortality!


Revelation 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.


evermore
165

165 aion {ahee-ohn'}

from the same as 104; TDNT - 1:197,31; n m

AV - ever 71, world 38, never + 3364 + 1519 + 3588 6, evermore 4,
age 2, eternal 2, misc 5; 128

1) for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
2) the worlds, universe
3) period of time, age


1 John 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.


eternal
166

166 aionios {ahee-o'-nee-os}

from 165; TDNT - 1:208,31; adj

AV - eternal 42, everlasting 25, the world began + 5550 2,
since the world began + 5550 1, for ever 1; 71

1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and
always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting

For Synonyms see entry 5801




This eternal life is in the Son...The difference here is while this is given to us, it is stated that it is in the Son. I do not believe it was given to him but that he had always possessed it based on the various things we are discussing.





Rev 2:8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;


Jesus himself said he is the first and the last...that is eternal. This is applied also to the Father because he also is eternal. Not only that but they both together make the same type of statement in the OT. If one is eternal, so must be the Son.






1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.



2 Timothy 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,



Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.


John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
John 8:57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.



John 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
John 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
John 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.


ever
165

165 aion {ahee-ohn'}

from the same as 104; TDNT - 1:197,31; n m

AV - ever 71, world 38, never + 3364 + 1519 + 3588 6, evermore 4,
age 2, eternal 2, misc 5; 128

1) for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
2) the worlds, universe
3) period of time, age



Hebrews 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Hebrews 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Hebrews 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
Hebrews 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
Hebrews 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
Hebrews 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
Hebrews 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
Hebrews 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.


Paul teaches that the Father identified the Son as God.


1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.


Matthew 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.


Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.


John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
John 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.


When I am face to face with Christ, I shall also declare him to be my Lord and God.


Luke 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:


So is the Son eternal? Of course Is the Son also God? Of course.

Curtis
Nov 9th 2013, 07:49 AM
Jesus is not a created being, he was and has always been with his Father. There has never been a time when Wisdom (Jesus) to have ever been apart from each other. The Word dwells in the Father and the Father dwells in the Word...As it is written....

Col 2:8 See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ.
Col 2:9 For in him (Jesus) the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily,

When God created the world and every thing in it, the first thing he did was to bring forth Wisdom. Jesus is the Wisdom of God, and it was through Wisdom he created all things, visible and invisible. All things were made by him and for him, and without him nothing was made that was made. This is why it tells us in Proverbs that the most important thing in your life above every thing is to get Wisdom. There is nothing you can compare Wisdom to. It is the principle thing. The most valuable thing God can give to any man or woman is Wisdom. There will nothing in this life or the next that can be greater than this. What ever you do in life seek Wisdom and get understanding. Lift your voice for it, cry for it, make it the number one thing in your life.

ewq1938
Nov 9th 2013, 08:08 AM
Jesus is not a created being, he was and has always been with his Father.

Amen. We will see a lot of that same sentiment.

Noeb
Nov 9th 2013, 05:11 PM
This is the clearest passage that suggests God created Christ. The Septuagint translation of 8:22 was read to them to mean, "the Lord created me". Wisdom in Proverbs 8 seems to be a personality (Christ) by which God made the world.no nO NO!!!!!
1Co 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

1Co 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
1Co 1:24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1Co 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified....................v24 .....the wisdom of God.
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1Co 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

1Co 2:6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

episkopos
Nov 9th 2013, 05:17 PM
God's wisdom is being personified, as a figure of speech. She is also a she; Jesus is a he. If you read all of Proverbs, this personification figure of speech is easy to recognize. Especially when we read about Wisdom's opposite, Folly, who is personified as well, as a woman who brings death.

See Proverbs 3.13-20, where the author tells how 'She is a tree of life', and how God created the world 'by Wisdom', that is, 'by his knowledge'.

Jesus also distinguishes himself from Lady Wisdom in Matthew 11.19.

ummm...truth is a she as well. That's because Hebrew has everything in gender form...like French or Italian. A table in French is feminine..... as in...une table. In Hebrew it is...HaHochmah hiy... the wisdom she is...

Noeb
Nov 9th 2013, 05:22 PM
Interestingly enough, that was taken right out of the introduction to Proverbs in the ESV study bible under the section "Christ and Wisdom".
what was? I've googled and haven't a clue what you are talking about.

Nick
Nov 9th 2013, 05:28 PM
what was? I've googled and haven't a clue what you are talking about.

It's in introduction to Proverbs in the ESV study bible

episkopos
Nov 9th 2013, 05:34 PM
This is the clearest passage that suggests God created Christ. The Septuagint translation of 8:22 was read to them to mean, "the Lord created me". Wisdom in Proverbs 8 seems to be a personality (Christ) by which God made the world.

You go too far...God creating wisdom and Jesus personifying wisdom to us does not mean that God created Christ. God the Father also personifies wisdom to us. But He did not create Himself.

Nick
Nov 9th 2013, 05:40 PM
You go too far...God creating wisdom and Jesus personifying wisdom to us does not mean that God created Christ. God the Father also personifies wisdom to us. But He did not create Himself.

Perhaps not. That's how I read it and the Septuagint translation mentioned in the introduction "the Lord created me" threw me off. Yours and other people's responses, with the exception of one, helped course correct that misunderstanding.

Noeb
Nov 9th 2013, 06:17 PM
It's in introduction to Proverbs in the ESV study bible*what* is? quote it please.

BrianW
Nov 9th 2013, 06:18 PM
Nick,

Are you now saying that you were wrong and misunderstood? God is Christ and Christ is God. Always has been and always will be. Jesus was before creation just as the Holy Spirit was.

Do you understand this?

BrianW
Nov 9th 2013, 06:23 PM
Mod note: I've deleted some posts that were unnecessary and unedifying. Got a problem with it? Start a chat to mod thread addressed to me and I'll be happy to elaborate. I would suggest a quick read through of Bible Forums code of conduct before you do though. :)

Nick
Nov 9th 2013, 06:35 PM
Nick,

Are you now saying that you were wrong and misunderstood? God is Christ and Christ is God. Always has been and always will be. Jesus was before creation just as the Holy Spirit was.

Do you understand this?

Yes and I mentioned what threw me off. v.23 is equally confusing.

"Ages ago I was set up, at the first, before the beginning of the earth."

The writer is saying (I believe) that Christ was "set up" or "before" to be the instrument by which God made the world. What was "set up" and by whom?

exitludos
Nov 9th 2013, 07:09 PM
We need to be careful not to read a systematic theology where the authors did not intend us to. Wisdom in Proverbs is a woman (again, Jesus is male, so author not writing about Jesus), and is set opposite to another personification, Folly. If created Lady Wisdom, who created Lady Folly? Did God? Did she simply manifest from nothing? This problem is what happens when you push a figure of speech too far and try to systematize it. Neither is intended to be read as a literal, living person. Lady Wisdom personifies God's wisdom; she is his 'understanding' and 'knowledge'. (I do think Lady Wisdom in Proverbs helps us understand Genesis 2-3, but that beside point here.)

The application of wisdom personifications by New Testament authors (John 1, Colossians 1, and Hebrews 1) to Jesus does not require the reader to make a one-to-one equivocation between Jesus and Lady Wisdom, because that kind of systematic reading was not intended by the authors. (No more than God has wings, or is a bear, in other figures of speech.) What the authors were doing was taking recognizable images and using them to describe who Jesus is.

Nick
Nov 9th 2013, 07:17 PM
Is it not true that in the first few Christian centuries it was widely accepted that Christ was the incarnation of Wisdom (personified as a noble lady in Proverbs)?

episkopos
Nov 9th 2013, 07:38 PM
Is it not true that in the first few Christian centuries it was widely accepted that Christ was the incarnation of Wisdom (personified as a noble lady in Proverbs)?

If that is so then why did the infant Jesus display a lack of wisdom?


Luke 2:40

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

40 The Child continued to grow and become strong, increasing in wisdom; and the grace of God was upon Him

exitludos
Nov 10th 2013, 06:21 AM
Is it not true that in the first few Christian centuries it was widely accepted that Christ was the incarnation of Wisdom (personified as a noble lady in Proverbs)?
It is possible that they did. I have not read much of the post-apostolic literature. But we should focus primarily on the biblical authors, not the post-apostolic authors.


The question is whether the authors of the books in the bible intended for us to make a systematic equivocation between Jesus and Lady Wisdom.

Do the biblical authors apply Lady Wisdom tropes to Jesus? Absolutely. This is undeniable. Hebrews 1.3 clearly borrows from Wisdom 7.25-26 (http://bible.com/416/wis.7.24-30.gnbdc). They do this to help define who Jesus is.

But this application of Lady Wisdom tropes to Jesus, does not mean he is being equated with Lady Wisdom in the one-to-one sense of 'Proverbs 8.22-36 is about Jesus'.

It would be absurd if we read Proverbs 1.20ff and claimed we were being told Lady Wisdom-Jesus literally walked the streets of a marketplace (during the days of the author), shouting proverbs at passersby. It is just as much a mistake to read Proverbs 8.22-36 as saying Lady Wisdom-Jesus was created by God. Proverbs 8.22-36, where Lady Wisdom is 'with' God and participates in creating the world, is a parabolic illustration 3.19-20: God created the earth with wisdom, understanding, and knowledge. Her persona in the book of Proverbs, all of her speech and actions, is metaphor. Wisdom being created, her participation in the act of creation, her individuality as a whole, is strictly a poetic device by the author.

shepherdsword
Nov 10th 2013, 07:13 AM
Is it not true that in the first few Christian centuries it was widely accepted that Christ was the incarnation of Wisdom (personified as a noble lady in Proverbs)?


I do know that there were certain schools of "gnostics" that worshiped "sophia" as deity. I get a little confused here myself with the concept of 'wisdom" ever having a beginning. Isn't it something that an omniscient God would of always had? I tend to look at the statement more as a sort of metaphorical typology rather than a literal beginning to a quality that an all knowing,all powerful God would of always had to posses in order to be God.

Nick
Nov 10th 2013, 06:05 PM
I do know that there were certain schools of "gnostics" that worshiped "sophia" as deity. I get a little confused here myself with the concept of 'wisdom" ever having a beginning. Isn't it something that an omniscient God would of always had? I tend to look at the statement more as a sort of metaphorical typology rather than a literal beginning to a quality that an all knowing,all powerful God would of always had to posses in order to be God.

I wasn't referring to the gnostics. One the things I like about the ESV study Bible is the introduction and background to each book. Here's the part on "Personified Wisdom and Christ":

Proverbs commends pursuing “wisdom,” portraying it as a virtue. In four poems in chapters 1–9, wisdom is also personified as a noble lady whom one should pursue: 1:20–33; 3:13–20; 8:1–36; 9:1–18 (contrasted with Lady Folly). The poem of chapter 8 seems to go beyond personification to describing a personality, which has led to discussions of whether Christians should relate this description to Christ.

In the first few Christian centuries it was widely accepted that Christ was the incarnation of Wisdom in chapter 8. The Septuagint translation of 8:22 was read to mean, “the Lord created me” (see esv footnote; the Gk. might not be that specific), and thus the Arians (who denied the deity of Christ) found here a proof that the Logos (the “Word” of John 1:1) was a creature, and not God. But Athanasius, defending the deity of Christ, took the text to refer to Christ’s incarnation, and not to his preexistence. The esv renders the Hebrew verb qanah as “possessed,” which is a more accurate translation. The verse means that wisdom is the character of God by which he created (cf. 3:19), and therefore should not be taken as his creature; this is the wisdom he gives to those who will learn from Proverbs. In this light, neither side of those who based their discussion on the Septuagint had the correct understanding of the original Hebrew text.

It would appear, however, that Proverbs 8 played a role in the way NT authors described Christ. Paul’s “before all things” (Col. 1:17) seems to draw on Proverbs 8:23–26, with its repeated “before.” Wisdom in Proverbs 8 seems to be a personality—indeed, it seems to be what rationality would be if it were a person—by which God made the world. This is like Psalm 33:6, “By the word of the Lord the heavens were made.” The NT authors further expand this idea in texts such as John 1:1–3; Colossians 1:16–17; and Hebrews 1:3, 10–12, all of which insist that Jesus Christ is the incarnation of that divine person through whom God made the world.

adampjr
Nov 12th 2013, 03:14 AM
Is it not true that in the first few Christian centuries it was widely accepted that Christ was the incarnation of Wisdom (personified as a noble lady in Proverbs)?

It was and is accepted by many, but that has nothing to do with Christ being a creature. The Incarnation was the incarnation of the Word of God, the Wisdom of God (and many other ways you could say this).
The line of argument about Christ being the incarnate wisdom of God was expressly against the Arian heresy. Can you image God was ever without His wisdom? Is wisdom a creation or is in inherent to God?

shepherdsword
Nov 12th 2013, 10:35 AM
I wasn't referring to the gnostics. One the things I like about the ESV study Bible is the introduction and background to each book. Here's the part on "Personified Wisdom and Christ":

Proverbs commends pursuing “wisdom,” portraying it as a virtue. In four poems in chapters 1–9, wisdom is also personified as a noble lady whom one should pursue: 1:20–33; 3:13–20; 8:1–36; 9:1–18 (contrasted with Lady Folly). The poem of chapter 8 seems to go beyond personification to describing a personality, which has led to discussions of whether Christians should relate this description to Christ.

In the first few Christian centuries it was widely accepted that Christ was the incarnation of Wisdom in chapter 8. The Septuagint translation of 8:22 was read to mean, “the Lord created me” (see esv footnote; the Gk. might not be that specific), and thus the Arians (who denied the deity of Christ) found here a proof that the Logos (the “Word” of John 1:1) was a creature, and not God. But Athanasius, defending the deity of Christ, took the text to refer to Christ’s incarnation, and not to his preexistence. The esv renders the Hebrew verb qanah as “possessed,” which is a more accurate translation. The verse means that wisdom is the character of God by which he created (cf. 3:19), and therefore should not be taken as his creature; this is the wisdom he gives to those who will learn from Proverbs. In this light, neither side of those who based their discussion on the Septuagint had the correct understanding of the original Hebrew text.

It would appear, however, that Proverbs 8 played a role in the way NT authors described Christ. Paul’s “before all things” (Col. 1:17) seems to draw on Proverbs 8:23–26, with its repeated “before.” Wisdom in Proverbs 8 seems to be a personality—indeed, it seems to be what rationality would be if it were a person—by which God made the world. This is like Psalm 33:6, “By the word of the Lord the heavens were made.” The NT authors further expand this idea in texts such as John 1:1–3; Colossians 1:16–17; and Hebrews 1:3, 10–12, all of which insist that Jesus Christ is the incarnation of that divine person through whom God made the world.

What did God have as far as knowledge and wisdom before is was "incarnated"? Was He foolish? That is the main point I was making.I only mentioned the Gnostics because they read these passages in a literal way. Wisdom is feminine here and if we want to assign a literal reading to the text we can't ignore that.