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episkopos
Nov 9th 2013, 03:19 PM
We are seeing a spate of same-sounding threads that purports to push salvation as a status...a permanent status for any who have believed even just once...or have been delivered even once. This POV is taken from a few verses in the bible that speak of the spiritual realm and how that realm is now available to men as a place of salvation from the pull of the world. The teaching in question is referred to as OSAS. This could mean either...once saved always saved...or once a sinner always a sinner. ;)


Is this practice new? Or did the Pharisees of old do the exact same thing with the law of Moses?

Are men now immune from the error of legalism since Jesus came to earth? Or has a new legalism reared it's head...one that is based on a new set of laws that claim to erase all previous laws. Have men changed their ways? Has God changed His mind?


But where is the law of God in all this? Does God now tolerate disobedience and lawlessness in favour of a new legalism that seems to favour it's adherents even over the original people of God? Are we raising up a new super-Pharisee that can look down on the legalities of old as childish...what... follow laws?.... in favour of a new improved legality based on even better promises? And this without law...a lawless stance fabricated from a misunderstanding of the nature of the kingdom of God? Is there a lawless holiness?

Is not legalism the claiming of biblical verses for oneself....and the justifying effect that certain verses have over those who claim they are justified by them?

History repeats itself and those who don't pay attention to history are doomed to repeat it.

So we see that the new legalism is based on the claiming of verses for justification for they that hold to the legality of the verses (to themselves) that speak of the law of Christ. They claim...I am saved!!!! They claim the legal entitlement to the rewards that they have read about in the bible. They claim that a simple claiming through a belief that they are qualified....in fact qualifies them. Their opinion on the matter is seen by them as all the proof that is required. One need ask only...are you saved? And the answer to the positive is the proof of salvation...since this is by a personal belief.



So what is legalism?

luigi
Nov 9th 2013, 03:37 PM
We are seeing a spate of same-sounding threads that purports to push salvation as a status...a permanent status for any who have believed even just once...or have been delivered even once. This POV is taken from a few verses in the bible that speak of the spiritual realm and how that realm is now available to men as a place of salvation from the pull of the world. The teaching in question is referred to as OSAS. This could mean either...once saved always saved...or once a sinner always a sinner. ;)


Is this practice new? Or did the Pharisees of old do the exact same thing with the law of Moses?

Are men now immune from the error of legalism since Jesus came to earth? Or has a new legalism reared it's head...one that is based on a new set of laws that claim to erase all previous laws. Have men changed their ways?


But where is the law of God in all this? Does God now tolerate disobedience and lawlessness in favour of a new legalism that seems to favour it's adherents even over the original people of God? Are we raising up a new super-Pharisee that can look down on the legalities of old as childish...what... follow laws?.... in favour of a new improved legality based on even better promises? And this without law...a lawless stance fabricated from a misunderstanding of the nature of the kingdom of God? Is there a lawless holiness?

Is not legalism the claiming of biblical verses for oneself....and the justifying effect that certain verses have over those who claim they are justified by them?

History repeats itself and those who don't pay attention to history are doomed to repeat it.

So we see that the new legalism is based on the claiming of verses for justification for they that hold to the legality of the verses (to themselves) that speak of the law of Christ. They claim...I am saved!!!! They claim the legal entitlement to the rewards that they have read about in the bible. They claim that a simple claiming through a belief that they are qualified....in fact qualifies them. Their opinion on the matter is seen by them as all the proof that is required. One need ask only...are you saved? And the answer to the positive is the proof of salvation...since this is by a personal belief.



So what is legalism?
Hello Epi,
I've looked at many comments on the OSAS' position, and the main thing I've noticed is that no matter how much scripture you present contradicting this erroneous perspective, they simply disregard it. I think this may due to many OSAS' desire to simply not have to conform to the Way Jesus led by example.
This denying of Gods Word, also holds true for pre tribbers, who despite an overwhelming amount of evidence to the contrary, they simply disregard those scriptures so that they can be comfortable in believing that they will not have to experience any Great tribulation.

Walls
Nov 9th 2013, 03:39 PM
You could have a point here, OR, it could be that the young Christians, and/or those who have never been taught correctly, are, at the same time, sinning like all of us do, and are starting to question the solidity of the efficacy of Christ's work under the barrage of the "Anti-OSAS" contingent on this Forum.

There's nothing like a new-born Christian coming onto this Forum and seeing men of biblical knowledge convincing them that if you slip you're "GONE, FINISHED, LOST - so pack it up. Christ's work is easily undone!"

episkopos
Nov 9th 2013, 03:57 PM
You could have a point here, OR, it could be that the young Christians, and/or those who have never been taught correctly, are, at the same time, sinning like all of us do, and are starting to question the solidity of the efficacy of Christ's work under the barrage of the "Anti-OSAS" contingent on this Forum.

There's nothing like a new-born Christian coming onto this Forum and seeing men of biblical knowledge convincing them that if you slip you're "GONE, FINISHED, LOST - so pack it up. Christ's work is easily undone!"

One extreme does not necessarily lead to the other. If God has no favourites that doesn't take away the love He has for all....without partiality.

But there are some who claim that if they are not favoured then they are not interested in just being like everyone else.

There is a problem with the "divine love affair" idea that so many Christians see themselves in with God. The only concept of love that they understand is a selfish love of being "special" in the eyes of the beloved. In fact, when the specialness of this love is gone...they will abandon the beloved and no longer be interested in something that doesn't make them "feel special" about themselves.


So then the truth about love is lost among those who maintain a carnal understanding about love.

But the specialness of love with God is to be shared with ALL OF HUMANITY. A selfish person cannot stand for that. And what kind of believers are being "recruited" if not the self seekers seeking to preserve their own lives? How many people would fill the pews if one preached that God is looking for those who give their lives away?

Eyelog
Nov 9th 2013, 04:04 PM
You could have a point here, OR, it could be that the young Christians, and/or those who have never been taught correctly, are, at the same time, sinning like all of us do, and are starting to question the solidity of the efficacy of Christ's work under the barrage of the "Anti-OSAS" contingent on this Forum.

There's nothing like a new-born Christian coming onto this Forum and seeing men of biblical knowledge convincing them that if you slip you're "GONE, FINISHED, LOST - so pack it up. Christ's work is easily undone!"

Your point is well taken in that many OSAS proponents don't believe they are free to be licentious. But Episkopos is taking it to another level, too. He is, at least in part, saying there is a second danger beyond licentiousness, a missing of the purpose of the Gospel itself.

Elsewhere He's quoted several important verses about the purpose for which we are saved. He does a good job on that. I would add this:

The reason Jesus went to the Cross was so we would not only be saved, but that we would be freed to obey. Why? Because God’s goal is to make us into beings who love Him and are zealous to obey Him by doing good. Paul writes:


11For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,
12instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to
live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age, 13looking
for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great
God and Savior, Christ Jesus, 14who gave Himself for us to
redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a
people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds. Titus
2:11-14.

We can see God’s dual purpose in sending Jesus to die, and why Jesus “gave Himself":

(1) That we would be cleansed of our sins and counted as righteous, justified and
redeemed before God, and

(2) That, being purified, we would follow His example for how to obey God, becoming
“zealous for good deeds.”

The conditional nature of the promises of God as to our receiving the Kingdom indicate God’s expectation that we would live up to what we have attained in Christ. Indeed, Christ has not only freed and enabled us, but God has given us the example of how Jesus obeyed, as well as the means to become like Jesus so we can obey the way He did - through faith.
Even in the face of our mortal weakness and our seemingly unending hypocrisy, we should be encouraged. Jesus showed us how a merely human being can obey in the most difficult of things, even without the power of the Spirit.

But it’s not as if we don’t have the Spirit. We do. More than that, we can be encouraged because it is not as if Christ was born knowing how to obey in all things, able to endure the Cross in obedience. Rather, He progressively learned increasingly difficult things to obey. He learned obedience through His Father’s training in righteousness. Hebrews 5:8.

CarrieO
Nov 9th 2013, 04:07 PM
I can see these same things happening, but I believe it is more sinister than that. There is a push toward legalism and Hebrew roots seems to be the end result for many. I think it is part of the great falling away that is prophesied. For some reason, people cannot see that they don't have to be Jewish. I guess this makes logical sense to some due to the old testament, but it could not be further from the truth. People forget that the Jews didn't get it right in the first place (though those of us who know the bible understand the reason for this-so not an attack on anyone) and sadly, most are walking in darkness. Mix the legalism with Talmudic teachings, that have infiltrated most if not all of Judaism at this point, and people are really unequally yoking themselves.

Eyelog
Nov 9th 2013, 04:10 PM
One extreme does not necessarily lead to the other. If God has no favourites that doesn't take away the love He has for all....without partiality.

But there are some who claim that if they are not favoured then they are not interested in just being like everyone else.

There is a problem with the "divine love affair" idea that so many Christians see themselves in with God. The only concept of love that they understand is a selfish love of being "special" in the eyes of the beloved. In fact, when the specialness of this love is gone...they will abandon the beloved and no longer be interested in something that doesn't make them "feel special" about themselves.


So then the truth about love is lost among those who maintain a carnal understanding about love.

But the specialness of love with God is to be shared with ALL OF HUMANITY. A selfish person cannot stand for that. And what kind of believers are being "recruited" if not the self seekers seeking to preserve their own lives? How many people would fill the pews if one preached that God is looking for those who give their lives away?

Indeed, the love of God is to obey His commands.

John 14:15
“If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

John 14:21
He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him.”

John 14:23
Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him.

John 14:24
He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father’s who sent Me.

John 15:10
If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.

1 John 2:5
but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him:

1 John 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.

Jude 1:20-22
20 But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, 21 keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life. 22 And have mercy on some, who are doubting;

episkopos
Nov 9th 2013, 04:19 PM
I can see these same things happening, but I believe it is more sinister than that. There is a push toward legalism and Hebrew roots seems to be the end result for many. I think it is part of the great falling away that is prophesied. For some reason, people cannot see that they don't have to be Jewish. I guess this makes logical sense to some due to the old testament, but it could not be further from the truth. People forget that the Jews didn't get it right in the first place (though those of us who know the bible understand the reason for this-so not an attack on anyone) and sadly, most are walking in darkness. Mix the legalism with Talmudic teachings, that have infiltrated most if not all of Judaism at this point, and people are really unequally yoking themselves.

At the beginning of the church age...the devil sought to bring down the saints through a legalism from the OT. But since then he has refined his attack by inventing a new legalism based on the NT. He masks this very well by making one fight against the other...pitting one form of legalism against the other and thereby masking (especially) his new scheme. This new scheme is the great delusion that will deceive many...if possible even the elect.

All that can be shaken will be shaken.

Noeb
Nov 9th 2013, 04:20 PM
I can see these same things happening, but I believe it is more sinister than that. There is a push toward legalism and Hebrew roots seems to be the end result for many. I think it is part of the great falling away that is prophesied. For some reason, people cannot see that they don't have to be Jewish. I guess this makes logical sense to some due to the old testament, but it could not be further from the truth. People forget that the Jews didn't get it right in the first place (though those of us who know the bible understand the reason for this-so not an attack on anyone) and sadly, most are walking in darkness. Mix the legalism with Talmudic teachings, that have infiltrated most if not all of Judaism at this point, and people are really unequally yoking themselves.I wasn't going to post but then you posted this. I'm not OSAS or NOSAS. I'm Bible -keep the faith -love God and neighbor. Usually the young (can be a 30 year 'christian') teaches OSAS and the pharisee NOSAS. The Bible is found in between. Christians do to the law and the prophets and Jesus' words what Jews did to the law and the prophets, and the blind on both sides (OSAS/NOSAS) lead the blind, and sadly baby sheep, into the ditch.

Eyelog
Nov 9th 2013, 04:29 PM
I wasn't going to post but then you posted this. I'm not OSAS or NOSAS. I'm Bible -keep the faith -love God and neighbor. Usually the young (can be a 30 year 'christian') teaches OSAS and the pharisee NOSAS. The Bible is found in between. Christians do to the law and the prophets and Jesus' words what Jews did to the law and the prophets, and the blind on both sides (OSAS/NOSAS) lead the blind, and sadly baby sheep, into the ditch.

Noeb, I agree that the blind lead the blind and the new believer is in dire straights doctrinally. However, Episkopos is correct about the old legalism of trying to earn one's salvation, forcing one's way into the kingdom being pitted against the true Gospel, with the result of what we might call hyper-grace, easy believism, and the teachings of K-Love.

Noeb
Nov 9th 2013, 04:45 PM
Noeb, I agree that the blind lead the blind and the new believer is in dire straights doctrinally. However, Episkopos is correct about the old legalism of trying to earn one's salvation, forcing one's way into the kingdom being pitted against the true Gospel, with the result of what we might call hyper-grace, easy believism, and the teachings of K-Love.I haven't see a lot of hypers lately but I haven't been reading every word in every post in these way too many threads on this one topic. I have asked for proof of this many many times and I get nothing, so I conclude the hypers are not being claimed, since no one can prove it with some simple links. Those I see preaching grace also preach holiness and those preaching holiness also claim grace, so I will ask for proof of the hypers one more time and say.....what's all the fuss about? :D

Walls
Nov 9th 2013, 04:51 PM
Notwithstanding the good intentions of the original poster, and notwithstanding that we are not free to do as we please, I would like to hear of one honest Christian who has not slipped, or failed, or come short in his Christian walk after his/her rebirth. Am I to take it that you have now lost what Christ died for, and what the Father ratified by His resurrection? I can assure you I have failed many times in my 35 year Christian walk. For instance, I have been unreasonably angry with another reckless driver in my time and thought evil thoughts of revenge. Is my love for the Lord proven false? One of the rules of this Forum is that I be a Christian. But according to the "Anti-OSAS" contingent, my salvation is lost and I am an imposter!

You have good reason to ban me this minute and only keep those who have not yet sinned!

BUT..... If sinning is still acknowledged by the "Anti-OSAS" contingent, what is your argument? We are then ALL guilty and ALL removed from Christ's work....! OR... does the "anti-OSAS" contingent teach an elitism that some may sin and remain born again while others are not?

And pray, tell us all, if salvation is by FAITH in the completed works of Christ, show us the scriptures that show that WORKS can undo it? Or do the evil works exclude us from the kingdom, not cause an UNBIRTH - the destruction of God's divine nature in us (2nd Pet.1:4)? Was the prodigal son still a son after his sojourn with the swine? Was he demoted from sonship to servanthood? Was he still a son while sojourning with the unclean?

I ask these questions without emotion. But maybe the trashing of a young Christian's hope in Christ's work is another form of Legalism equally dangerous. What say you gentlemen (and ladies)?

CarrieO
Nov 9th 2013, 04:53 PM
Oh yes! Satan has all kinds of legalism...roman catholicism, islam, this newer legalistic attitude. I am just trying to put this into an end times perspective because that is where we are now...no denying it. It is great to notice these things, but to put it in biblical perspective helps to understand what is happening in our world. There is some kind of strange alliance being formed between the three major monotheistic religions. Take notice if you have not seen it yet. Its happening.

I believe that what it will all boil down to is legalism vs. faith. An outward appearance of salvation vs. an inward salvation. Those who don't show the proper legalistic approach will be despised by those who think this is necessary to serve god...brother vs. brother, etc. The problem is that it is the wrong god. Whoa to the christians who are not mature at that time. Only in maturity does this understanding come.

Of all the forms of legalism, the most devastating, seems to be the Noahide laws. I believe this is Biblically important and it shows us exactly from where our worst threat will come. I, for one, would not want a reformed Jewish Sanhedrin determining whether I am an idol worshiper or not. Oddly, this is the same source that killed our Lord...but it was all part of the plan...salvation is their for all...including the new and old Sanhedrin...but they have a choice to make. And this is in US law, under Bush, Sr. It is supposed to be universal eventually.

http://www.chabad.org/therebbe/article_cdo/aid/62221/jewish/Universal-Morality.htm

episkopos
Nov 9th 2013, 04:59 PM
I was hoping to keep this thread focused on the NEW legalism of claiming salvation for oneself by belief in the bible.

I think the answer to this was spoken by Jesus...

Joh_5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

This means knowing the Lord not just a bunch of verses.

Noeb
Nov 9th 2013, 05:03 PM
I was hoping to keep this thread focused on the NEW legalism of claiming salvation for oneself by belief in the bible.Sometimes we find ourselves hoping for the impossible. No one....I repeat....NO ONE claims "salvation for oneself by belief in the bible". You are still beating the air.....

episkopos
Nov 9th 2013, 05:04 PM
Sometimes we find ourselves hoping for the impossible. No one....I repeat....NO ONE claims "salvation for oneself by belief in the bible". You are still beating the air.....

You don't believe in the bible? I not only believe in the bible, I own several myself.

Eyelog
Nov 9th 2013, 05:12 PM
Notwithstanding the good intentions of the original poster, and notwithstanding that we are not free to do as we please, I would like to hear of one honest Christian who has not slipped, or failed, or come short in his Christian walk after his/her rebirth. Am I to take it that you have now lost what Christ died for, and what the Father ratified by His resurrection? I can assure you I have failed many times in my 35 year Christian walk. For instance, I have been unreasonably angry with another reckless driver in my time and thought evil thoughts of revenge. Is my love for the Lord proven false? One of the rules of this Forum is that I be a Christian. But according to the "Anti-OSAS" contingent, my salvation is lost and I am an imposter!

You have good reason to ban me this minute and only keep those who have not yet sinned!

BUT..... If sinning is still acknowledged by the "Anti-OSAS" contingent, what is your argument? We are then ALL guilty and ALL removed from Christ's work....! OR... does the "anti-OSAS" contingent teach an elitism that some may sin and remain born again while others are not?

And pray, tell us all, if salvation is by FAITH in the completed works of Christ, show us the scriptures that show that WORKS can undo it? Or do the evil works exclude us from the kingdom, not cause an UNBIRTH - the destruction of God's divine nature in us (2nd Pet.1:4)? Was the prodigal son still a son after his sojourn with the swine? Was he demoted from sonship to servanthood? Was he still a son while sojourning with the unclean?

I ask these questions without emotion. But maybe the trashing of a young Christian's hope in Christ's work is another form of Legalism equally dangerous. What say you gentlemen (and ladies)?

There are those who think one sin knocks you out of the box, but I haven't met one on this forum.

However, a person who apostasizes isn't being saved. A person who is not repentant of a pattern or stronghold area of sin can turn to apostasy, and so forth. Most who do those things probably were never saved to begin with. Others, some hold to have lost their hope in eternal life and are doomed.

For me, the issue with this 'new legalism' is that it innoculates would - be born againers from confessing Jesus as Lord, and they end up living unfruitful or significantly less fruitful lives in the Lord thereafter. Are they being saved? Are they ever going to become more like Christ? Are they ever going to manifest the fruit of the Spirit? Or, are they just going to wallow about in an unvictorious life, never growing much? Are they missing out on the abundant life in Christ?

Some here would say they aren't going to make it. Some would say they will be the plebians in the afterlife.

CarrieO
Nov 9th 2013, 05:15 PM
I was hoping to keep this thread focused on the NEW legalism of claiming salvation for oneself by belief in the bible.

I think the answer to this was spoken by Jesus...

Joh_5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

This means knowing the Lord not just a bunch of verses.


Ok...suit yourself. I think part of the problem is we don't see a big picture. I believe that time is short and the big picture is more important, but if you are determined to focus on just a little piece, be my guest. I can't do it. Seeing more, I have to put it in perspective.

Eyelog
Nov 9th 2013, 05:15 PM
Sometimes we find ourselves hoping for the impossible. No one....I repeat....NO ONE claims "salvation for oneself by belief in the bible". You are still beating the air.....

I think Episkopos has charged SBFBG with that very thing -- reducing his belief to an opinion about himself rather than a reality in Christ. -- please correct me and forgive me if I am wrong, Episkopos.

Noeb
Nov 9th 2013, 05:16 PM
You don't believe in the bible?what are you talking about now?

Noeb
Nov 9th 2013, 05:19 PM
I think Episkopos has charged SBFBG with that very thing -- reducing his belief to an opinion about himself rather than a reality in Christ. -- please correct me and forgive me if I am wrong, Episkopos.
and I'm supposed to care what epi thinks about another why? Epi has tried this method of promoting his doctrine with many of us here and he is always out of line so????

episkopos
Nov 9th 2013, 05:21 PM
Ok...suit yourself. I think part of the problem is we don't see a big picture. I believe that time is short and the big picture is more important, but if you are determined to focus on just a little piece, be my guest. I can't do it. Seeing more, I have to put it in perspective.


That's the beauty of a forum with many threads. we can only tackle the subject as presented in the OP. We can speak of the bigger picture...but in relation to the topic at hand. I have stated the bigger picture...that of the devil coming up with a new corruption of the gospel that many claim saves them.

episkopos
Nov 9th 2013, 05:26 PM
and I'm supposed to care what epi thinks about another why? Epi has tried this method of promoting his doctrine with many of us here and he is always out of line so????

I am concerned with doctrinal stances as I don't know everybody personally. There are many people who hold to the hyper grace doctrine. We have a good many members here that hold to this in one form or other.

I think as we learn more about God we all come out of that dangerous doctrine...I myself used to think I was especially saved....and therefore immune from prosecution for sins I did. But the Lord broke me of that.

It is a very seductive doctrine...

wpm
Nov 9th 2013, 05:41 PM
I am concerned with doctrinal stances as I don't know everybody personally. There are many people who hold to the hyper grace doctrine. We have a good many members here that hold to this in one form or other.

I think as we learn more about God we all come out of that dangerous doctrine...I myself used to think I was especially saved....and therefore immune from prosecution for sins I did. But the Lord broke me of that.

It is a very seductive doctrine...

Thank God many of us have moved away from the legalism you preach - of a man-centered salvation. The only positive is, your chip-on-the-shoulder attitude discredits what you espouse. Even if I believed what you believed I would be embarrassed by how you communicate with fellow believers. Your He-loves-me, loves-me-not theology brings death to believers.

CarrieO
Nov 9th 2013, 05:46 PM
That's the beauty of a forum with many threads. we can only tackle the subject as presented in the OP. We can speak of the bigger picture...but in relation to the topic at hand. I have stated the bigger picture...that of the devil coming up with a new corruption of the gospel that many claim saves them.

Its not new. Its the same old story...same story...different day!

episkopos
Nov 9th 2013, 05:46 PM
Thank God many of us have moved away from the legalism you preach - of a man-centered salvation. The only positive is, your chip-on-the-shoulder attitude discredits what you espouse. Even if I believed what you believed I would be embarrassed by how you communicate with fellow believers. Your He-loves-me, loves-me-not theology brings death to believers.


God loves His whole creation. He doesn't have favourites. He judges based on what we do with what we have been given. You can either see that as death and negative. Or else you can see that our old way of seeing is itself death. As we surrender our ways to Christ we come into an actual life that He provides...rather than a life we thought we had.

episkopos
Nov 9th 2013, 05:50 PM
Its not new. Its the same old story...same story...different day!

But is it a deeper lie. It involves belief in what Jesus did. That is the seduction of it. For a belief system to be anti-Christ, it must include Christ in it in some way...as to make the gospel of no effect. Like a serum against a virus has a little of the disease in it....so the anti-Christ teaching has a little truth in it.

But a little truth can be a very dangerous thing.

CarrieO
Nov 9th 2013, 05:52 PM
But is it a deeper lie. It involves belief in what Jesus did. That is the seduction of it. For a belief system to be anti-Christ, it must include Christ in it in some way...as to make the gospel of no effect. Like a serum against a virus has a little of the disease in it....so the anti-Christ teaching has a little truth in it.

But a little truth can be a very dangerous thing.

Kind of like Roman Catholicism?

Like I said...not new.

wpm
Nov 9th 2013, 05:55 PM
But is it a deeper lie. It involves belief in what Jesus did. That is the seduction of it. For a belief system to be anti-Christ, it must include Christ in it in some way...as to make the gospel of no effect. Like a serum against a virus has a little of the disease in it....so the anti-Christ teaching has a little truth in it.

But a little truth can be a very dangerous thing.

This is terrible. This should not be allowed on a Christian board. You are totally tearing apart the foundation of what salvation is and what Christianity is.

episkopos
Nov 9th 2013, 05:57 PM
Kind of like Roman Catholicism?

Like I said...not new.

It is worse than RC ism. The RC faith is very sensual...based on sights, smells and sounds. This appeals to the masses. But very few RC's make great Pharisaical claims about themselves and their own salvation. They put their trust in false mediators. But so do other sects. This is easily seen by disciples who have forsaken all.

What is truly harder to detect is the taking of spiritual verses and applying that to those who accept the verse as truth...without understanding the depth of what is being said. So then a superficial Christianity is spread...even by those who are called of God. This superficiality...more than any blatant error...immunizes the ones who should be seeking the Lord....from seeking.


If possible even the elect would be deceived.

CarrieO
Nov 9th 2013, 06:00 PM
But is it a deeper lie. It involves belief in what Jesus did. That is the seduction of it. For a belief system to be anti-Christ, it must include Christ in it in some way...as to make the gospel of no effect. Like a serum against a virus has a little of the disease in it....so the anti-Christ teaching has a little truth in it.

But a little truth can be a very dangerous thing.


And I disagree with your opinion of "anti-christ"...

1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

Anti-christ teachings can completely deny christ.

episkopos
Nov 9th 2013, 06:05 PM
And I disagree with your opinion of "anti-christ"...

1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

Anti-christ teachings can completely deny christ.

Are you sure you are clear on the bigger picture?

The devil doesn't have a tail and a pitchfork.

The anti-Christ is preaching a gospel of salvation for mankind. Based on Jesus.....but a different Jesus. The real Jesus takes us to death...so people hate Him. The anti-Christ promises only good things for those who believe in him. He promises life for nothing.

But the depth is lacking in the false Jesus.

That is why those who seek to save their lives will lose them....and that is talking about believers!!!!

CarrieO
Nov 9th 2013, 06:05 PM
It is worse than RC ism. The RC faith is very sensual...based on sights, smells and sounds. This appeals to the masses. But very few RC's make great Pharisaical claims about themselves and their own salvation. They put their trust in false mediators. But so do other sects. This is easily seen by disciples who have forsaken all.

What is truly harder to detect is the taking of spiritual verses and applying that to those who accept the verse as truth...without understanding the depth of what is being said. So then a superficial Christianity is spread...even by those who are called of God. This superficiality...more than any blatant error...immunizes the ones who should be seeking the Lord....from seeking.


If possible even the elect would be deceived.

This really is not much different than Roman Catholicism. Under Vatican II, the "church" is trying to re-absorb the schismatics (protestants). Many denominations joined with this and said that they needed to heal the divide between the religions since it can all be called "Christianity". It is all part of the ecumenical movement, but go ahead and focus on your little piece.

I'm off with things to do...

Noeb
Nov 9th 2013, 06:08 PM
There are those who think one sin knocks you out of the box, but I haven't met one on this forumEpi and Gadget :kiss:

Redeemed by Grace
Nov 9th 2013, 06:08 PM
We are seeing a spate of same-sounding threads that purports to push salvation as a status...a permanent status for any who have believed even just once...or have been delivered even once. This POV is taken from a few verses in the bible that speak of the spiritual realm and how that realm is now available to men as a place of salvation from the pull of the world. The teaching in question is referred to as OSAS. This could mean either...once saved always saved...or once a sinner always a sinner. ;)


Is this practice new? Or did the Pharisees of old do the exact same thing with the law of Moses?

Are men now immune from the error of legalism since Jesus came to earth? Or has a new legalism reared it's head...one that is based on a new set of laws that claim to erase all previous laws. Have men changed their ways? Has God changed His mind?


But where is the law of God in all this? Does God now tolerate disobedience and lawlessness in favour of a new legalism that seems to favour it's adherents even over the original people of God? Are we raising up a new super-Pharisee that can look down on the legalities of old as childish...what... follow laws?.... in favour of a new improved legality based on even better promises? And this without law...a lawless stance fabricated from a misunderstanding of the nature of the kingdom of God? Is there a lawless holiness?

Is not legalism the claiming of biblical verses for oneself....and the justifying effect that certain verses have over those who claim they are justified by them?

History repeats itself and those who don't pay attention to history are doomed to repeat it.

So we see that the new legalism is based on the claiming of verses for justification for they that hold to the legality of the verses (to themselves) that speak of the law of Christ. They claim...I am saved!!!! They claim the legal entitlement to the rewards that they have read about in the bible. They claim that a simple claiming through a belief that they are qualified....in fact qualifies them. Their opinion on the matter is seen by them as all the proof that is required. One need ask only...are you saved? And the answer to the positive is the proof of salvation...since this is by a personal belief.



So what is legalism?

One extreme does not necessarily lead to the other. If God has no favourites that doesn't take away the love He has for all....without partiality.

But there are some who claim that if they are not favoured then they are not interested in just being like everyone else.

There is a problem with the "divine love affair" idea that so many Christians see themselves in with God. The only concept of love that they understand is a selfish love of being "special" in the eyes of the beloved. In fact, when the specialness of this love is gone...they will abandon the beloved and no longer be interested in something that doesn't make them "feel special" about themselves.


So then the truth about love is lost among those who maintain a carnal understanding about love.

But the specialness of love with God is to be shared with ALL OF HUMANITY. A selfish person cannot stand for that. And what kind of believers are being "recruited" if not the self seekers seeking to preserve their own lives? How many people would fill the pews if one preached that God is looking for those who give their lives away?


At the beginning of the church age...the devil sought to bring down the saints through a legalism from the OT. But since then he has refined his attack by inventing a new legalism based on the NT. He masks this very well by making one fight against the other...pitting one form of legalism against the other and thereby masking (especially) his new scheme. This new scheme is the great delusion that will deceive many...if possible even the elect.

All that can be shaken will be shaken.


I was hoping to keep this thread focused on the NEW legalism of claiming salvation for oneself by belief in the bible.

I think the answer to this was spoken by Jesus...

Joh_5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

This means knowing the Lord not just a bunch of verses.

Finally after 4 posts some scripture, yet it doesn’t seem to support the OP???? So it must be an opinion and not sound doctrine? So looks like another thread that divides.... Passing...

CarrieO
Nov 9th 2013, 06:09 PM
Are you sure you are clear on the bigger picture?

The devil doesn't have a tail and a pitchfork.

The anti-Christ is preaching a gospel of salvation for mankind. Based on Jesus.....but a different Jesus. The real Jesus takes us to death...so people hate Him. The anti-Christ promises only good things for those who believe in him. He promises life for nothing.

But the depth is lacking in the false Jesus.

That is why those who seek to save their lives will lose them....and that is talking about believers!!!!

That is not what that verse says, is it?

And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

Either we believe the bible or we don't. Anti-christ denies that Jesus has come, but we are also warned of another Jesus.

But go ahead with arrogant accusations of a devil with tail and a pitchfork. I'll choose the truth of the bible.

Noeb
Nov 9th 2013, 06:09 PM
So, I answered your question.No....no you didn't.



So far as the OP, he raises a good point in my view. (I know, ... who cares what my view is... LOL)It has to exist to be good.

episkopos
Nov 9th 2013, 06:11 PM
This really is not much different than Roman Catholicism. Under Vatican II, the "church" is trying to re-absorb the schismatics (protestants). Many denominations joined with this and said that they needed to heal the divide between the religions since it can all be called "Christianity". It is all part of the ecumenical movement, but go ahead and focus on your little piece.

I am talking of the common Catholic. One of the masses. He doesn't involve himself in religion too much...so he is basically just as an unbeliever.

How many Catholics even try to evangelize with the new message?



I'm off with things to do...

Don't work too hard!

episkopos
Nov 9th 2013, 06:13 PM
Finally after 4 posts some scripture, yet it doesn’t seem to support the OP???? So it must be an opinion and not sound doctrine? So looks like another thread that divides.... Passing...



A scripture verse inspector looking for chapter and verse numbers?


Did Jesus EVER use verse numbers? Look it up...

Noeb
Nov 9th 2013, 06:15 PM
I am concerned with doctrinal stances as I don't know everybody personally. There are many people who hold to the hyper grace doctrine. We have a good many members here that hold to this in one form or other. Without links it's just hot air



I think as we learn more about God we all come out of that dangerous doctrine...I myself used to think I was especially saved....and therefore immune from prosecution for sins I did.Sorry to hear that, but almost all do not fall for it. Because of your own personal experience you beat the air and act as if it's common.

episkopos
Nov 9th 2013, 06:23 PM
That is not what that verse says, is it?

And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

How many believers believe that Jesus overcame all sin in the same flesh as they have? Most believers I talk to believe that Jesus was somehow different than us and had a special resistance to sin. So this makes them disbelieve Jesus about being as holy as God is through Him. They just claim that they will always sin because their flesh is more sinful than Jesus' was. And in this way the gospel message is lost.

You wouldn't happen also to dis-believe in the power of Christ keeping us from all sin perchance?



Either we believe the bible or we don't. Anti-christ denies that Jesus has come, but we are also warned of another Jesus.

Has come IN THE FLESH. This means that Jesus had a victory in a body just like ours. Abiding now in Him gives us that same victory over sin.


But go ahead with arrogant accusations of a devil with tail and a pitchfork. I'll choose the truth of the bible.

I didn't say that the devil had such things...I said that he didn't.

episkopos
Nov 9th 2013, 06:24 PM
Without links it's just hot air


Sorry to hear that, but almost all do not fall for it. Because of your own personal experience you beat the air and act as if it's common.

Hey, you're in fine form Noeb! :)

Noeb
Nov 9th 2013, 06:28 PM
Hey, you're in fine form Noeb! :)
I know, that's why I'm still here and you still have no evidence.

episkopos
Nov 9th 2013, 06:35 PM
I know, that's why I'm still here and you still have no evidence.

But I have evidence of you being here! Thanks for your comments. The thread would be very different without them.

Neanias
Nov 9th 2013, 06:38 PM
Many people believe in Jesus the same way the Pharisees believed in Moses: they give mental assent to some of the things he said and do what they believe is obey some part of it, and from there, they justify themselves.

They read the books written by Moses and found a way to justify themselves in it, with the smallest amount of obedience they thought they could get away with. So today men read the New Testament and seek the easiest to claim for themselves salvation. But those are men coming to God in an attempt to save their lives, not lose their lives.

So men twist the words of scripture to make it seem that they obey what is necessary for salvation. They then ignore any verses that even suggest what they have considered an acceptable obedience is not what we are called. They search the scriptures, and use what they can in them to justify themselves.

CarrieO
Nov 9th 2013, 06:39 PM
How many believers believe that Jesus overcame all sin in the same flesh as they have? Most believers I talk to believe that Jesus was somehow different than us and had a special resistance to sin. So this makes them disbelieve Jesus about being as holy as God is through Him. They just claim that they will always sin because their flesh is more sinful than Jesus' was. And in this way the gospel message is lost.

You wouldn't happen also to dis-believe in the power of Christ keeping us from all sin perchance?




Has come IN THE FLESH. This means that Jesus had a victory in a body just like ours. Abiding now in Him gives us that same victory over sin.



I didn't say that the devil had such things...I said that he didn't.

I will work hard. That is in my nature.

You DID ACCUSE me of believing in some kind of cartoon devil. That is what I said because that is what you said. I run into so many who just don't read.

I am hoping that someone who is really searching does not run into someone like you. Your pride and arrogance is a turn off and if being a christian meant I had to be blind to everything except my own little view of the world, I would not want to be one.

Good luck. I'm off!!!

wpm
Nov 9th 2013, 06:54 PM
How many believers believe that Jesus overcame all sin in the same flesh as they have? Most believers I talk to believe that Jesus was somehow different than us and had a special resistance to sin. So this makes them disbelieve Jesus about being as holy as God is through Him. They just claim that they will always sin because their flesh is more sinful than Jesus' was. And in this way the gospel message is lost.

You wouldn't happen also to dis-believe in the power of Christ keeping us from all sin perchance?




Has come IN THE FLESH. This means that Jesus had a victory in a body just like ours. Abiding now in Him gives us that same victory over sin.



I didn't say that the devil had such things...I said that he didn't.

Romans 10:3-4 says, "For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth."

It is amazing how many professing Christians are trying to establish their own holiness/righteousness. The scary thing is: They are missing exactly what a Christian is.

Ephesians 4:24 says, “put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.”

The new man here is Christ.

Galatians 3:27 “put on Christ.”

episkopos
Nov 9th 2013, 07:03 PM
I will work hard. That is in my nature.

You DID ACCUSE me of believing in some kind of cartoon devil. That is what I said because that is what you said. I run into so many who just don't read.

I am hoping that someone who is really searching does not run into someone like you. Your pride and arrogance is a turn off and if being a christian meant I had to be blind to everything except my own little view of the world, I would not want to be one.

Good luck. I'm off!!!

I thank you for showing me the grace you speak of.

episkopos
Nov 9th 2013, 07:04 PM
Romans 10:3-4 says, "For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth."

It is amazing how many professing Christians are trying to establish their own holiness/righteousness. The scary thing is: They are missing exactly what a Christian is.

Ephesians 4:24 says, “put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.”

The new man here is Christ.

Galatians 3:27 “put on Christ.”

Amen! .................

ob_one
Nov 9th 2013, 07:06 PM
Hello everyone,
This thread is exactly what I've been struggling with for some time now. Can you guys explain how I keep the commands of Christ(not sure which ones those are) out of love and not self preservation? I can't seem to distinguish the difference. Excuse my ignorance in advance, I'm just sincerely confused.

wpm
Nov 9th 2013, 07:10 PM
Hello everyone,
This thread is exactly what I've been struggling with for some time now. Can you guys explain how I keep the commands of Christ(not sure which ones those are) out of love and not self preservation? I can't seem to distinguish the difference. Excuse my ignorance in advance, I'm just sincerely confused.

You cannot just say I am going to be holy today. You can’t. It is impossible. Many try it and fail. Many get discouraged and depressed. The reason is: they are trying to produce it in their own strength and for their own purposes.

You need help. Without the enlightenment of the Holy Ghost and the power of the Holy Ghost you cannot please God or produce fruit. Don't depend on self, depend upon God within you.

Others may point you to a man-made self-help Christianity. That is wrong. That is death. You have to listen to the Lord, ask for His strength and obey what He tells you. When you fail, ask for mercy.

Curtis
Nov 9th 2013, 07:14 PM
The truth of OSAS or it's counter part that you can lose your salvation have scriptures on both ends to support their beliefs. The truth only will be found between the two. You first have to reconcile them together before you can be set free to believe the truth. We can not believe one can lose their salvation until we know by revelation why the scriptures say we are saved by faith alone apart from works. On the other hand we can not believe that faith alone is enough to save until we know by revelation that faith without works is dead. The combination and the results of them both reveal the truth. My own beliefs are that man can not lose his salvation, but he can lose his life if he stays in disobedience. I think the odds of that happening are slim as Jesus said....

Mat 7:17 So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit.
Mat 7:18 A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit.
Mat 7:19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

Now the question would be, the tree that does not produce good fruit which is cast into the fire, did it ever produce good fruit?

episkopos
Nov 9th 2013, 07:15 PM
Hello everyone,
This thread is exactly what I've been struggling with for some time now. Can you guys explain how I keep the commands of Christ(not sure which ones those are) out of love and not self preservation? I can't seem to distinguish the difference. Excuse my ignorance in advance, I'm just sincerely confused.

You have to realize that Christianity is a loss before it is a gain. Anybody can add to what they already have. That is the false message being preached today. It is just lip service that pleases no one but the devil who inspired it. But it takes faith to lose all things KNOWING that this is gain...

Php_3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,


Do you love the Lord MORE than anything? Do you seek the kingdom of God above anything in this world? If not keep moving closer to the Lord. Taste and see that He is worthy of all you have and are.

Peace to you

ob_one
Nov 9th 2013, 07:26 PM
There is the problem. I ask all the time, and I get all twisted up on what it is I'm supposed to be doing. I am at the point of desperation and that's the biggest obstacle. I feel that whatever I do is just out of fear as opposed to true obedience. That's why I understand when the word speaks of my deeds as dirty rags. I get that. So where is the tipping point. Do I just keep keeping on(doubt it).

episkopos
Nov 9th 2013, 07:34 PM
There is the problem. I ask all the time, and I get all twisted up on what it is I'm supposed to be doing. I am at the point of desperation and that's the biggest obstacle. I feel that whatever I do is just out of fear as opposed to true obedience. That's why I understand when the word speaks of my deeds as dirty rags. I get that. So where is the tipping point. Do I just keep keeping on(doubt it).

Allow God to draw you in. Don't panic! Ask the Lord for help and then watch for it....but without fear and self-doubt. Remember that David was confident in the goodness and fairness of God. Be like that. Go deeper and trust...just don't go making silly claims on either extreme. Let God show you the way.

ob_one
Nov 9th 2013, 07:52 PM
Self doubt is my middle name. I guess is hard for me to understand how you know your bearing good fruits and walking on the narrow path. It almost becomes a point of hope and I feel there is much more too it.

Noeb
Nov 9th 2013, 07:53 PM
But I have evidence of you being here! Thanks for your comments. The thread would be very different without them.All threads you are in would be very different without me. That's why I am in them.

episkopos
Nov 9th 2013, 07:57 PM
Self doubt is my middle name. I guess is hard for me to understand how you know your bearing good fruits and walking on the narrow path. It almost becomes a point of hope and I feel there is much more too it.

Love doesn't calculate how much one has done for God. Don't be too concerned about this in the short term. It is actually good to realize the insufficiency of what we do.

There does exist a close walk with God where you are doing things through Christ. Then the works are perfect. Strive to abide into Christ. It may take a long time...but what else are you doing with the rest of your life? We must learn to be patient when dealing with God and His eternal things. Just don't undertake things that take away from your pursuit of God. If we will trust Him He will pursue us. Then it becomes a question of what we are looking for in life. Do we really care about God's will and His kingdom He is so lovingly setting up for those who love Him?

ob_one
Nov 9th 2013, 08:01 PM
Once again, "If you love Me, keep my commands". What are those commands that I must keep to show him love?

episkopos
Nov 9th 2013, 08:17 PM
The truth of OSAS or it's counter part that you can lose your salvation have scriptures on both ends to support their beliefs. The truth only will be found between the two. You first have to reconcile them together before you can be set free to believe the truth. We can not believe one can lose their salvation until we know by revelation why the scriptures say we are saved by faith alone apart from works. On the other hand we can not believe that faith alone is enough to save until we know by revelation that faith without works is dead. The combination and the results of them both reveal the truth. My own beliefs are that man can not lose his salvation, but he can lose his life if he stays in disobedience. I think the odds of that happening are slim as Jesus said....

Mat 7:17 So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit.
Mat 7:18 A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit.
Mat 7:19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

Now the question would be, the tree that does not produce good fruit which is cast into the fire, did it ever produce good fruit?

Why not? Why must humans behave in absolutes? Anybody who has lived long enough knows that anyone is capable of anything. So what makes us redeemable also makes us able to fail the grace of God.

episkopos
Nov 9th 2013, 08:19 PM
Once again, "If you love Me, keep my commands". What are those commands that I must keep to show him love?

Start with this...when you enter a room take the lowest place. In other words be humble. God loves humility.

Also when you give something to someone...do it cheerfully! God loves a cheerful giver.

Do things to please the Lord.

Slug1
Nov 9th 2013, 08:24 PM
So what is legalism?Ya reallllllllly want me to answer :lol:

For me, based on experience(s) that I endured for a period of my life, this is how I would "personally" define legalism.

Legalism is... the enforcement of performance measures that people must jump through for their being accepted by a church (or denomination) that ultimately results in undiscipled people who worship the traditions, rituals, and ways of the church. Deviation from this in any way will result in disciplining until the traditions, rituals, and ways of the church, are followed. Following the way of the church is what it is to be... Christian.

episkopos
Nov 9th 2013, 08:27 PM
Ya reallllllllly want me to answer :lol:

For me, based on experience(s) that I endured for a period of my life, this is how I would "personally" define legalism.

Legalism is... the enforcement of performance measures that people must jump through for their being accepted by a church (or denomination) that ultimately results in undiscipled people who worship the traditions, rituals, and ways of the church. Deviation from this in any way will result in disciplining until the traditions, rituals, and ways of the church, are followed. Following the way of the church is what it is to be... Christian.

Can it also be a way of interpreting the scriptures to one's own benefit and defending that benefit using the bible verses one has selected to that purpose?

Curtis
Nov 9th 2013, 08:52 PM
Why not? Why must humans behave in absolutes? Anybody who has lived long enough knows that anyone is capable of anything. So what makes us redeemable also makes us able to fail the grace of God.

The problem is we are not capable of anything on our own. You are either a child of God or a child of the Devil. There is no just you. God is either living in you or the Devil, and they are guiding who ever will let them. If our salvation is not from our self's then how can we keep our self's saved? How can we lose something by works, that we never gained by works.

Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Jud 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
Jud 1:25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

episkopos
Nov 9th 2013, 09:19 PM
The problem is we are not capable of anything on our own. You are either a child of God or a child of the Devil. There is no just you. God is either living in you or the Devil, and they are guiding who ever will let them. If our salvation is not from our self's then how can we keep our self's saved? How can we lose something by works, that we never gained by works.

Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Jud 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
Jud 1:25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.


So you are saying that people can't be either good nor bad?

Neanias
Nov 9th 2013, 09:20 PM
God has given us all things pertaining to godliness through Christ Jesus.

The balance of this is that we are the ones now who must put to work what we have been given.

We can do nothing of our own... But we can do all things through Christ, if we abide in him by faith. If we did not have to co-operate, persevere, and work out our salvation with fear and trembling though, then why the parable of the talents?

In the parable of the talents, 3 men have received something from their master. 2 of them multiplied, bore fruit, 1 of them didn't. We would be deluding ourselves and lying if we said that the 3rd man never really received anything. He did receive something! His fault is not that he didn't receive anything, his fault is that he did nothing with it.

God is the one who gives seed, so we as ground can do nothing without seed, that is true. It is equally true that we are responsible for the ground, it is us who must till the ground to prepare it to receive the seed.

God is the one who is able, and has made this power available to us. To claim irresponsibility in the face of this is folly! Our responsibility is to enter his rest, his life, and abide there.

Curtis
Nov 9th 2013, 09:29 PM
So you are saying that people can't be either good nor bad?

There is no such a thing as a good or bad man on his/her own. You are either being lead by darkness or light, there is no gray area.
We use to be lead by the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now working in the children of disobedience. Now we are now lead by the Holy Spirit, and not ourselves, that is if the Spirit of God is within us.

Slug1
Nov 9th 2013, 09:43 PM
Can it also be a way of interpreting the scriptures to one's own benefit and defending that benefit using the bible verses one has selected to that purpose?To me this is not legalism... this would be simply false teaching, thus those teaching this way are wolves luring sheep away from the truth of God.

episkopos
Nov 9th 2013, 09:59 PM
To me this is not legalism... this would be simply false teaching, thus those teaching this way are wolves luring sheep away from the truth of God.

I definitely agree with this assessment...that's a Hooah! I will have to ponder the legalism aspect some more...

episkopos
Nov 9th 2013, 10:02 PM
There is no such a thing as a good or bad man on his/her own. You are either being lead by darkness or light, there is no gray area.
We use to be lead by the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now working in the children of disobedience. Now we are now lead by the Holy Spirit, and not ourselves, that is if the Spirit of God is within us.



I think the opposite is true. No man can personify good or evil. So men are grey...I actually did a thread called the grey zone. Men are far too inconsistent to be labeled in this way.

shepherdsword
Nov 9th 2013, 10:09 PM
I think the opposite is true. No man can personify good or evil. So men are grey...I actually did a thread called the grey zone. Men are far too inconsistent to be labeled in this way.


"The gray zone" eh? I'll have to look that on up. Although I do admit there are times on here I feel like I am in the twilight zone..:lol:

the Seeker
Nov 9th 2013, 10:12 PM
That's the beauty of a forum with many threads. we can only tackle the subject as presented in the OP. We can speak of the bigger picture...but in relation to the topic at hand. I have stated the bigger picture...that of the devil coming up with a new corruption of the gospel that many claim saves them.

I disagree. Satan does not need to have some special doctrine invade the churches anymore. All he needs to do is give people thoughts that challenge what they believe, and the chaff shows itself. Man have been doing more to disqualify himself from the kingdom than what Satan is doing right now. Take a look at all of the differing viewpoints on just about everything here. When people seek understand apart from the guidance of the Holy Spirit, (here's a hint, it starts with the Bible, it does not end there), folly, false teaching, and flocks to hell usually follow. This is why I stress John 14-15. I say this because there are many who do not know about the Holy Spirit. They heard, but they have not been properly taught on how to wait on the Lord, reading scripture prayerfully, honestly seeking the message it wants to tell them; all of the things that we need to know in order to successfully run the race to salvation.

Understand that salvation is not found in religion, it's found in relationship. Remember the Lord's words. It is infinitely more important to know the Lord personally, with stories of how He has LITERALLY affected your personal life, than it is to know the legal mumble jumbo that some profess to be the truth. The Lord leads today, and I believe that He will lead each and every person that earnestly seeks out the truth to the well of living water.

Honestly, I used to be worried about all of the legalism and nonsense that seems to be flowing in and out of the churches like clouds. The Lord is currently working that out of me. I believe that His power is much greater than all other powers, including the power of mankind to shoot themselves in the foot.

Slug1
Nov 9th 2013, 10:16 PM
I definitely agree with this assessment...that's a Hooah! I will have to ponder the legalism aspect some more...Since I'm presently in college for Pastoral Leadership, majoring in counseling... I've had to purchase a few theological dictionaries.

In the Westminster dictionary, legalism is defined as: A relationship or ethical system that is governed primarily by obedience to prescribed laws or rules (pg159).

luigi
Nov 9th 2013, 10:16 PM
There is the problem. I ask all the time, and I get all twisted up on what it is I'm supposed to be doing. I am at the point of desperation and that's the biggest obstacle. I feel that whatever I do is just out of fear as opposed to true obedience. That's why I understand when the word speaks of my deeds as dirty rags. I get that. So where is the tipping point. Do I just keep keeping on(doubt it).
Hi ob_one,
If you are willing to lose your life (your current sinful nature), by continuing to seek the Lord, you will then ultimately gain your life.
If on the other hand, you find this life's pleasures are what you really want, you will then ultimately lose your life.

Curtis
Nov 9th 2013, 11:01 PM
I think the opposite is true. No man can personify good or evil. So men are grey...I actually did a thread called the grey zone. Men are far too inconsistent to be labeled in this way.

1Jn 3:10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.

There is no other family you can be associated with in the world. No man can be separate on his own. You are either light, or darkness.

episkopos
Nov 9th 2013, 11:08 PM
Since I'm presently in college for Pastoral Leadership, majoring in counseling... I've had to purchase a few theological dictionaries.

In the Westminster dictionary, legalism is defined as: A relationship or ethical system that is governed primarily by obedience to prescribed laws or rules (pg159).


Thanks....

legalism : A relationship or ethical system that is governed primarily by obedience to prescribed laws or rules

Well a system that makes obedience of no import (like OSAS) seems to fall out of the defining of what legalism is. But there is an unwritten rule ( a pseudo legalism?) in the OSAS "handbook" that states that a person must claim salvation for themselves and obstinately defend that position by calling those who seek to correct their error as...unsaved. So then it is a legalistic black and white reading that makes one a part of the "saved club". I did a thread on that topic as well...... :)

episkopos
Nov 9th 2013, 11:11 PM
1Jn 3:10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.

There is no other family you can be associated with in the world. No man can be separate on his own. You are either light, or darkness.



That's an oversimplification don't you think? Can darkness turn to light and light turn to darkness? Or do you advocate the position of Inspector Javert over Jean Valjean? (Les Miserables characters) The inspector believed a man could never change. Jean valjean was a changed man...

Slug1
Nov 9th 2013, 11:13 PM
That's an oversimplification don't you think? Can darkness turn to light and light turn to darkness? Or do you advocate the position of Inspector Javert over Jean Valjean? (Les Miserables characters) The inspector believed a man could never change. Jean valjean was a changed man...I was once a child of darkness.

Here is a question... are ALL who are lost (not in Christ), children of darkness?

Slug1
Nov 9th 2013, 11:14 PM
Thanks....

legalism : A relationship or ethical system that is governed primarily by obedience to prescribed laws or rules

Well a system that makes obedience of no import (like OSAS) seems to fall out of the defining of what legalism is. But there is an unwritten rule ( a pseudo legalism?) in the OSAS "handbook" that states that a person must claim salvation for themselves and obstinately defend that position by calling those who seek to correct their error as...unsaved. So then it is a legalistic black and white reading that makes one a part of the "saved club". I did a thread on that topic as well...... :)I would say that OSAS is an element of legalism, or maybe better yet... a symptom of legalism.

Curtis
Nov 9th 2013, 11:19 PM
That's an oversimplification don't you think? Can darkness turn to light and light turn to darkness? Or do you advocate the position of Inspector Javert over Jean Valjean? (Les Miserables characters) The inspector believed a man could never change. Jean valjean was a changed man...

Yes.

Eph 5:8 for at one time you were darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light

episkopos
Nov 9th 2013, 11:26 PM
I was once a child of darkness.

Here is a question... are ALL who are lost (not in Christ), children of darkness?

I think we move around. Even the darkest person can show a glitter of something that came from the light. But indeed overall those who are not walking in the light are in darkness.

I just don't believe that men are qualified to make such judgments without also condemning themselves.

wpm
Nov 9th 2013, 11:28 PM
I would say that OSAS is an element of legalism, or maybe better yet... a symptom of legalism.

Just because you entertain the thought that you might end up in hell one day doesn't mean the rest of us have to.

Jude 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

Phil 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

2 Timothy 1:12 puts it well: "for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day."

episkopos
Nov 9th 2013, 11:30 PM
Yes.

Eph 5:8 for at one time you were darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light

We are light in the Lord as we walk in His presence. We can be called children of light in general because we walk in this light for the most part. But then I see the inconsistent claiming among those who see themselves as in the light but cannot believe in a walk without sin. Sin is darkness. In Him there is no darkness. So then I am not the one who should be convincing people who dabble in darkness at times on the absolute nature of what light is.


I DO claim that men can walk in perfection in Christ. Most don't believe that. Yet the unbelievers in this holy standard are the ones who claim things are either black and white. Can you discern the false witness in this?

Curtis...check out my thread on "the grey zone"

Slug1
Nov 9th 2013, 11:39 PM
Just because you entertain the thought that you might end up in hell one day doesn't mean the rest of us have to.

Jude 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

Phil 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

2 Timothy 1:12 puts it well: "for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day."The parable of the Sower teaches us that people who have endured and that have been fruitful, became unfruitful or endured NO MORE.

Only a person who is IN Christ CAN endure and only a person who is IN Christ can be fruitful. So when Jesus speaks that parable about people enduring and being fruitful, H is talking about those who are Christian but fell away. ONLY those who can become UNfruitful or those who can endure NO MORE... once did both. The only way to be fruitful/endure is to BE a Christian. Those never in Christ, they CANNOT be fruitful and are thus, NOT those who became unfruitful. Those never in Christ, they cannot begin to endure and are thus, NOT those who endured NO MORE.

Curtis
Nov 9th 2013, 11:39 PM
We are light in the Lord as we walk in His presence. We can be called children of light in general because we walk in this light for the most part. But then I see the inconsistent claiming among those who see themselves as in the light but cannot believe in a walk without sin. Sin is darkness. In Him there is no darkness. So then I am not the one who should be convincing people who dabble in darkness at times on the absolute nature of what light is.


I DO claim that men can walk in perfection in Christ. Most don't believe that. Yet the unbelievers in this holy standard are the ones who claim things are either black and white. Can you discern the false witness in this?
Curtis...check out my thread on "the grey zone"

Well I know what the exact nature of light is because God is light. Unbelievers can't tell the difference between light and darkness, they think darkness is light, and they are right. Darkness is a light, it blinds them from the truth. Even Jesus said that darkness was a light, but the wrong kind of light that only causes death. There are some who think they are filled with the light of God but in reality they are filled with the light darkness.

Luk 11:34 The light of the body is the eye: therefore when thine eye is single, thy whole body also is full of light; but when thine eye is evil, thy body also is full of darkness.
Luk 11:35 Take heed therefore that the light which is in thee be not darkness.

Slug1
Nov 9th 2013, 11:45 PM
Even the darkest person can show a glitter of something that came from the light. I can't agree with this thought of yours. While man may say there is that gray area, the Bible is clear that there is no gray area.

However... hhmmmm, being double-minded, would you consider a Christian who is double-minded living in a "gray" area?

wpm
Nov 10th 2013, 12:16 AM
The parable of the Sower teaches us that people who have endured and that have been fruitful, became unfruitful or endured NO MORE.

Only a person who is IN Christ CAN endure and only a person who is IN Christ can be fruitful. So when Jesus speaks that parable about people enduring and being fruitful, H is talking about those who are Christian but fell away. ONLY those who can become UNfruitful or those who can endure NO MORE... once did both. The only way to be fruitful/endure is to BE a Christian. Those never in Christ, they CANNOT be fruitful and are thus, NOT those who became unfruitful. Those never in Christ, they cannot begin to endure and are thus, NOT those who endured NO MORE.

No it doesn't!

It was just means it never produced what it was meant to produce. It is amazing the lengths you guys go to prove you could possibly end up in hell. What about actually "believing" that you are going to heaven instead of this "fear" theology you preach? The issue is you are looking to self as your hope instead of Christ.

Slug1
Nov 10th 2013, 12:22 AM
No it doesn't!

It was just means it never produced what it was meant to produce. It is amazing the lengths you guys go to prove you could possibly end up in hell. What about actually "believing" that you are going to heaven instead of this "fear" theology you preach? The issue is you are looking to self as your hope instead of Christ.I'm not looking at "self", the parable is clear... a group never accepts Christ. A group does accept Christ, they ARE fruitful for a period of time but stumble away from Christ due to persecution. A group does accept Christ, they endure for a period of time but become unfruitful due to the cares/riches of the world. A group does accept Christ, they endure and they are fruitful.

wpm
Nov 10th 2013, 12:25 AM
I view that doctrine as a dangerous heresy. In no way shape or form am I suggesting that those that hold it are unsaved or lost. However,I think it shows a form of presumptuousness that can cause one to disregard the clear warnings in the NT about self examination to determine if one is in the faith or not. It does have the deceptive elements that Satan used on Eve "thou shall not surely die" There have been many saints that have held it and have spiritually progressed far beyond my current level of maturity but I think it was in spite of this teaching...not because of it. In fact.I have great respect for ChangedByHim and view him as a precious brother and he holds this position. However,I don't see him chanting this position as some mantra in every one of his posts. He doesn't even debate it much and I am sure he sees all of these threads. I think those that are constantly debating it and weaving it in with every post they make as ones that cause concern. I held the OSAS position myself for years and considered anyone who didn't as legalistic deceivers with a gospel that was based on works. I abandoned it by a powerful encounter with the Lord once I delved deeply into the word. The doctrine gives many a false sense of security that can hold dire eternal consequences. This especially hold true when ministering to a backslider. I have ministered to several that didn't see any need for true repentance because they were "saved" and thought they could never lose it. Personally I don't think we lose it every time we sin or even if we trip up for some time in a period of backsliding. I just think that there is a point of no return if we trample on Jesus's blood to the point were God gives us over. when that happens the person has no desire to repent and could care less about his destiny. Of all of the current different doctrinal perspectives we have on the gospel I view this one as the most dangerous. It is as bad as thinking we can be justified by good works that are rooted in self. Epi has made a good point in past threads about how imputed righteousness is something that God grants and not something we impute to ourselves. Doing this is very similar to what the Pharisees did...it is just veiled in the claim that God has done it based on adopting Christianity as a philosophy. It can be rooted as deeply in self as thinking that good works can save. God is looking to remove all possibility for future rebellion against him by eradicating the nature within us all to do so. Any gospel message that ignores this by eliminating obedience has elements of falsehood to it.

I think you need to be careful with the language you are using. We could equally use the same charges for your error. I am disappointed. I thought better of you. I don't want to say "heresy" because that is inflammatory but your theology puts a question mark over the promises of God and makes God a liar.

Ephesians 4:30 says, “And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.”

Ephesians 1:11-14 declares, “In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest (or our pledge in advance) of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.”

Do you believed that you are sealed unto the day of redemption?

Jesus confirms this in John 10:26-29, rebuking the false professors, "ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand."

Do you believe Him?

Jesus said in John 6:39, "And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day."

Do you believe Him?

Hebrews 13:5 says, “I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.”

The original Greek has a double negative in relation to leaving us, and a triple negative in relation to forsaking us. It could be fairly translated “I will never, never leave thee, nor ever, ever, ever forsake thee.”

Do you believe this?

wpm
Nov 10th 2013, 12:28 AM
I'm not looking at "self", the parable is clear... a group never accepts Christ. A group does accept Christ, they ARE fruitful for a period of time but stumble away from Christ due to persecution. A group does accept Christ, they endure for a period of time but become unfruitful due to the cares/riches of the world. A group does accept Christ, they endure and they are fruitful.

You are inserting something into that parable that is not there. There is only 1 fruitful ground. Please reread. The seed (the Word) went into the ground (the heart) but worldly pleasures stopped it from producing.

LandShark
Nov 10th 2013, 12:30 AM
So what is legalism?

Legalism is using man made or even God's Laws to allow or deny membership, fellowship, or acceptance as brethren. I know this won't be popular, but even a church that uses it's interpretations alone as that which they will use to allow membership are acting as legalists. Honoring Sabbath (whatever day you do it on) or keeping other commandments is not legalism, using those things to control others is.

Blessings.

shepherdsword
Nov 10th 2013, 12:35 AM
No it doesn't!

It was just means it never produced what it was meant to produce. It is amazing the lengths you guys go to prove you could possibly end up in hell. What about actually "believing" that you are going to heaven instead of this "fear" theology you preach? The issue is you are looking to self as your hope instead of Christ.
On the otherhand I am amazed at the way some peole twist and wrest scripture in an attempt to force it into a false doctrinal paradigm. They teach that a healthy fear of God is some fear based doctrine instead of the beginning of wisdom. ( on yeah,that's old testament so wisdom has totally changed now) Paul himself said he knew the "terror of the Lord"(phobos) and as a result he persuaded others. It seems they take the verse "perfect love casts out all fear" as a license to dismiss this quality as a godly one altogether. The man who the Lord used to write this verse was the same man who fell at the feet of Jesus as dead when he saw Him in his current glorified state. This was a man who knew Jesus face to face too. In fact for centuries Godly men who loved Jesus were complimented as being "God fearing". There is a big difference between coming "boldly" to the throne of grace when in need and presumptuously approaching God's seat of judgment.

Slug1
Nov 10th 2013, 12:37 AM
You are inserting something into that parable that is not there. There is only 1 fruitful ground. Please reread. The seed (the Word) went into the ground (the heart) but worldly pleasures stopped it from producing.There is a group that becomes UNfruitful, which means they were once fruitful. A person cannot become UNfruitful, if they were never fruitful. I'm not inserting anything... look and read the verses yourself>>

Mt 13:22 Now he who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful.

Mk 4:19 and the cares of this world, the deceitfulness of riches, and the desires for other things entering in choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful.

Luke 8:14 Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity.

I'm not adding anything, all I am doing is accepting what the scriptures teach to Christians.

Banislam
Nov 10th 2013, 12:39 AM
WPM said,


I think you need to be careful with the language you are using. We could equally use the same charges for your error. I am disappointed. I thought better of you. I don't want to say "heresy" because that is inflammatory but your theology puts a question mark over the promises of God and makes God a liar.

It's very disturbing to me when I see people in disagreement accuse others of calling God a liar for their beliefs. NOBODY'S BELIEFS MAKE GOD A LIAR...AND NOBODY IS CALLING GOD A LIAR.

I've had people tell me on other forums that if I disagreed with them then I disagree with God and therefore am calling God a liar.
I agree 100% with shepherdsword on this one and I too consider once saved always saved heresy. It's a terrible teaching that needs to be abolished in the minds of Christians.
Here's a good page for people who believe in eternal security.

http://www.bible.ca/cal-P-refutation.htm

Curtis
Nov 10th 2013, 12:46 AM
You are inserting something into that parable that is not there. There is only 1 fruitful ground. Please reread. The seed (the Word) went into the ground (the heart) but worldly pleasures stopped it from producing.

I totally agree. The only ground that produced any fruit at all was the one who heard the Word and understood it. All the others never produced anything.

wpm
Nov 10th 2013, 12:52 AM
There is a group that becomes UNfruitful, which means they were once fruitful. A person cannot become UNfruitful, if they were never fruitful. I'm not inserting anything... look and read the verses yourself>>

Mt 13:22 Now he who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful.

Mk 4:19 and the cares of this world, the deceitfulness of riches, and the desires for other things entering in choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful.

Luke 8:14 Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity.

I'm not adding anything, all I am doing is accepting what the scriptures teach to Christians.

The ground is overwhelmed by weeds as the seed goes in. You need to note what it is saying instead of what you want it to say. Jesus said in Matt 13:22: “He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.”

The ground didn't become thorny after being unfruitful. It was already like that before the seed could develop. The Greek word interpreted choke here is sympnigō (sümp-nē'-gō), which literally means suffocate.

The actual of the ground was not conducive to fruit-bearing. It is impossible for fruit to be produced in an unweeded heart.

wpm
Nov 10th 2013, 12:59 AM
WPM said,



It's very disturbing to me when I see people in disagreement accuse others of calling God a liar for their beliefs. NOBODY'S BELIEFS MAKE GOD A LIAR...AND NOBODY IS CALLING GOD A LIAR.

I've had people tell me on other forums that if I disagreed with them then I disagree with God and therefore am calling God a liar.
I agree 100% with shepherdsword on this one and I too consider once saved always saved heresy. It's a terrible teaching that needs to be abolished in the minds of Christians.
Here's a good page for people who believe in eternal security.

http://www.bible.ca/cal-P-refutation.htm

So is it ok for someone on your side of the discussion to charge OSAS with holding to "dangerous heresy"? I see that you conveniently overlook that! That is what got the response.

This is what shepherdsword (http://bibleforums.org/member.php/33250-shepherdsword?tab=activitystream#activitystream) said at 5.57pm:


I view that doctrine as a dangerous heresy.

Vakeros (http://bibleforums.org/member.php/54509-Vakeros) at 6.02pm said:


James sums up the OSAS position and calls those who hold it foolish.

What do you think of these preceding comments?

shepherdsword
Nov 10th 2013, 01:12 AM
I think you need to be careful with the language you are using. We could equally use the same charges for your error. I am disappointed. I thought better of you. I don't want to say "heresy" because that is inflammatory but your theology puts a question mark over the promises of God and makes God a liar.

It doesn't make God a liar. He has never promised eternal life without any conditions.


Ephesians 4:30 says, “And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.”


Earnest is the greek word "arrabon" and means a down payment that can be forfeited if the conditions for the agreement are not met. It is not a blanket to be used as a false sense of security.


Ephesians 1:11-14 declares, “In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest (or our pledge in advance) of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.”Predestined in this context means that anyone who believes is predestined to obtain an inheritance. In no way does it imply that God has predestined some to heaven and the rest to hell. This is a great slam on God's nature and His justice.
Do you believed that you are sealed unto the day of redemption?

Do you understand what the use of Arrabon is relation to this means?


Jesus confirms this in John 10:26-29, rebuking the false professors, "ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand."

Do you believe Him?

The conditions for not be able to be plucked from the Father's hand are clear.

1) His sheep hear his voice(do we hear his voice?)
2) Jesus knows them...He has intimacy with Him. This word "know" is the exact same word used in the Septuagint for "Adam knew his wife Eve and they conceived a son" ( Does Jesus know us to the point of birthing within us a new creation?)
3) And they follow him( Do we take up our cross,deny ourselves and walk as He walked?)

The conditions are clear and taking the promise out of the context in which it was spoken is a misrepresentation of the gospel


Jesus said in John 6:39, "And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day."

Do you believe Him?

I believe Him. I don't believe in a false interpretation that presents a half message that places all responsibility on God. I don't believe a message that paints God as some unjust tyrant that predestines some to heaven and all of the rest to Hell.


Hebrews 13:5 says,
“I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.”



The original Greek has a double negative in relation to leaving us, and a triple negative in relation to forsaking us. It could be fairly translated “I will never, never leave thee, nor ever, ever, ever forsake thee.” Do you believe this?

In am in full agreement that God will never forsake any that come to him with humility and brokenness over sin and their lack of ability. This does not apply to those that forsake him and assume that their past sinner's prayer experience gives them some fire insurance that gives him license to do so. What kind of message does your doctrine give to those that type of person? Why do you take verses out of context and add to the word of God? Why do you ignore the conditions that God has laid out? This is why I think this doctrine is so dangerous. The arrogance of it is amazing. It appears that even you are being condescending with constant questions of "Do you believe" because the obvious errors of the OSAS position are presented. Therefore I am using the exact language and terms that I think apply to this false doctrine. I view it as a dangerous heresy. It gives a false sense of assurance and has probably cause more to enter eternal damnation that all of the different Gnostic heresies combined. I have also clearly qualified my position that holding this position in itself does not disqualify one from eternal life. As long as we walk on it faith with our eyes on Jesus and relying on Him alone for salvation we are fine. It becomes dangerous in a certain context. That being when this position is extended to those who are not walking on. This gives them a false assurance that could have dire consequences.

wpm
Nov 10th 2013, 01:20 AM
In am in full agreement that God will never forsake any that come to him with humility and brokenness over sin and their lack of ability. This does not apply to those that forsake him and assume that their past experience gives them some fire insurance that gives him license to do so. What kind of message does your doctrine give to those that type of person? This is why I think this doctrine is so dangerous. The arrogance of it is amazing. It appears that even you are being condescending with constant questions of " Do you believe" because the obvious errors of the OSAS position are presented. Therefore I am using the exact language and terms that I think apply to this false doctrine. I view it as a dangerous heresy. It gives a false sense of assurance and has probably cause more to enter eternal damnation that all of the different Gnostic heresies combined. I have also clearly qualified my position that holding this position in itself does not disqualify one from eternal life. As long as we walk on it faith with our eyes on Jesus and relying on Him alone for salvation we are fine. It becomes dangerous in a certain context. That being when this position is extended to those who are not walking on. This gives them a false assurance that could have dire consequences.

I think you need to calm down.

Slug1
Nov 10th 2013, 01:30 AM
The ground is overwhelmed by weeds as the seed goes in. You need to note what it is saying instead of what you want it to say. Jesus said in Matt 13:22: “He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.”

The ground didn't become thorny after being unfruitful. It was already like that before the seed could develop. The Greek word interpreted choke here is sympnigō (sümp-nē'-gō), which literally means suffocate.

The actual of the ground was not conducive to fruit-bearing. It is impossible for fruit to be produced in an unweeded heart.Well... the Bible has context and Jesus goes on to explain more. When you read the next parable so we can have context, tares WILL grow with the wheat but cannot be removed because other WHEAT WILL ALSO be removed... so what does this "wheat will ALSO be removed" mean to you?

Mt 13: 29 But he said, ‘No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.”’

If OSAS is accurate, how can those who are wheat ALSO be uprooted? Think about this before you answer.

In one parable Jesus speaks about what causes some to be unrooted and get uprooted. In the next parable, Jesus warns that the wheat (those of God) can ALSO be uprooted!!!!!!!

So, in context of what the Word of God is saying in these two parables (and I can go on with this with others also)... we have examples of HOW uprooting happens and a warning that those in EVEN the GOOD SOIL can ALSO be uprooted.

Parables are clear... it is a matter of accepting the lesson and message of God in these parables.

Balabusha
Nov 10th 2013, 01:34 AM
Why not let it go guys-salvation is all about Jesus Christ-not us. I don't think people in the first century were walking around saying "I am a 5 point Calvinist" or "I am not" of course I know that this could not be the case as Calvin was not alive, but they were just happy to be saved. All of you have good points, and some parts of Calvinism make sense, but can be taken to its illogical conclusion, or taken the wrong way.
Out of respect for God, I will not tackle this subject,as this has nothing to do with me, I am His and that is good enough for me.
Are you guys sure that you want to argue over salvation?

Curtis
Nov 10th 2013, 01:39 AM
It doesn't make God a liar. He has never promised eternal life without any conditions.



Earnest is the greek word "arrabon" and means a down payment that can be forfeited if the conditions for the agreement are not met. It is not a blanket to be used as a false sense of security.

Predestined in this context means that anyone who believes is predestined to obtain an inheritance. In no way does it imply that God has predestined some to heaven and the rest to hell. This is a great slam on God's nature and His justice.

Do you understand what the use of Arrabon is relation to this means?



The conditions for not be able to be plucked from the Father's hand are clear.

1) His sheep hear his voice(do we hear his voice?)
2) Jesus knows them...He has intimacy with Him. This word "know" is the exact same word used in the Septuagint for "Adam knew his wife Eve and they conceived a son" ( Does Jesus know us to the point of birthing within us a new creation?)
3) And they follow him( Do we take up our cross,deny ourselves and walk as He walked?)

The conditions are clear and taking the promise out of the context in which it was spoken is a misrepresentation of the gospel



I believe Him. I don't believe in a false interpretation that presents a half message that places all responsibility on God. I don't believe a message that paints God as some unjust tyrant that predestines some to heaven and all of the rest to Hell.



In am in full agreement that God will never forsake any that come to him with humility and brokenness over sin and their lack of ability. This does not apply to those that forsake him and assume that their past sinner's prayer experience gives them some fire insurance that gives him license to do so. What kind of message does your doctrine give to those that type of person? Why do you take verses out of context and add to the word of God? Why do you ignore the conditions that God has laid out? This is why I think this doctrine is so dangerous. The arrogance of it is amazing. It appears that even you are being condescending with constant questions of "Do you believe" because the obvious errors of the OSAS position are presented. Therefore I am using the exact language and terms that I think apply to this false doctrine. I view it as a dangerous heresy. It gives a false sense of assurance and has probably cause more to enter eternal damnation that all of the different Gnostic heresies combined. I have also clearly qualified my position that holding this position in itself does not disqualify one from eternal life. As long as we walk on it faith with our eyes on Jesus and relying on Him alone for salvation we are fine. It becomes dangerous in a certain context. That being when this position is extended to those who are not walking on. This gives them a false assurance that could have dire consequences.

I am sure you already know that the word, "arrabon" which means "Earnest money, a pledge, something which stands for part of the price and paid beforehand to confirm the transaction. The modern day translation of this same word which is, "Arrabona" which means an engagement ring"
The Holy Spirit is our engagement ring from the Lord. We are his bride already. As you probably also know that in a Jewish wedding once the price has been paid it was binding, and legal even though the ceremony has not yet happened. Later the ceremony will be held, but for now it is to late to call it off as we are his forever. The price has been paid by Christ, we are his.

Slug1
Nov 10th 2013, 01:47 AM
Why not let it go guys-salvation is all about Jesus Christ-not us. I don't think people in the first century were walking around saying "I am a 5 point Calvinist" or "I am not" of course I know that this could not be the case as Calvin was not alive, but they were just happy to be saved. All of you have good points, and some parts of Calvinism make sense, but can be taken to its illogical conclusion, or taken the wrong way.
Out of respect for God, I will not tackle this subject,as this has nothing to do with me, I am His and that is good enough for me.
Are you guys sure that you want to argue over salvation?It's not about arguing concerning salvation. It's about exposing false teaching compared to what the Word of God teaches. Many in the world believe the OSAS doctrine... they live a life that is not abiding in Christ because they are taught, once they accept Christ, they are saved forever more from the starting line of the race.

They will still be at the starting line when they die and never endured to the end.

There are many who believe the OSAS doctrine and FULLY endure and fully abide in Christ. Both however, believe what they believe and this is the problem with that doctrine.

Also... many how believe the NOSAS doctrine also sit at the starting line, while others endure and abide.

In the end, either belief system... those who accept Christ and don't endure to the end, will not be saved.

wpm
Nov 10th 2013, 01:50 AM
Well... the Bible has context and Jesus goes on to explain more. When you read the next parable so we can have context, tares WILL grow with the wheat but cannot be removed because other WHEAT WILL ALSO be removed... so what does this "wheat will ALSO be removed" mean to you?

Mt 13: 29 But he said, ‘No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.”’

If OSAS is accurate, how can those who are wheat ALSO be uprooted? Think about this before you answer.

In one parable Jesus speaks about what causes some to be unrooted and get uprooted. In the next parable, Jesus warns that the wheat (those of God) can ALSO be uprooted!!!!!!!

So, in context of what the Word of God is saying in these two parables (and I can go on with this with others also)... we have examples of HOW uprooting happens and a warning that those in EVEN the GOOD SOIL can ALSO be uprooted.

Parables are clear... it is a matter of accepting the lesson and message of God in these parables.

Jesus only outlines one lot of fruitful ground in Matt 13:8: "But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold."

As Curtis said: "The only ground that produced any fruit at all was the one who heard the Word and understood it. All the others never produced anything."

wpm
Nov 10th 2013, 01:52 AM
In the end, either belief system... those who accept Christ and don't endure to the end, will not be saved.

I agree totally!!!

Banislam
Nov 10th 2013, 01:56 AM
So is it ok for someone on your side of the discussion to charge OSAS with holding to "dangerous heresy"? I see that you conveniently overlook that! That is what got the response.

This is what shepherdsword (http://bibleforums.org/member.php/33250-shepherdsword?tab=activitystream#activitystream) said at 5.57pm:



Vakeros (http://bibleforums.org/member.php/54509-Vakeros) at 6.02pm said:



What do you think of these preceding comments?

I think that both of those comments are true.
For you to say that they are calling God a liar because they disagree with you is an abomination.

Aviyah
Nov 10th 2013, 01:58 AM
those who accept Christ and don't endure to the end, will not be saved.

I've never read anything about enduring to the end being a requirement for salvation. You are saved when you start the race, not when you finish it. Salvation cannot be earned, and overlooking this fundamental fact is necessary to oppose OSAS.

Curtis
Nov 10th 2013, 02:00 AM
I agree totally!!!

I know it's cool and all to think that some day we will get some eternal life from the Lord. If that is what we believe then that is exactly what you are going to get, some day.
One small problem with this thinking.....

1Jn 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

We already have eternal life now!!!! Why are we waiting for something that we already have?

Slug1
Nov 10th 2013, 02:10 AM
I've never read anything about enduring to the end being a requirement for salvation. You are saved when you start the race, not when you finish it. Salvation cannot be earned, and overlooking this fundamental fact is necessary to oppose OSAS.Paul is the clearest in teaching this. While Jesus taught about abiding, most of His teaching is hidden in parables. But in some lessons that He gives about abiding, He's crystal clear that becoming unfruitful is a symptom of having stopped abiding and it is clear in both His lessons and in the parables that those who endure not more, or become unfruitful... will not be saved in the end. A person cannot bear ANY fruit if they have never begun to abide. So those who become unfruitful, MUST at one time, been in Christ. In some lessons He is straight up and says that only those who endure to the end, will be saved.

Those who accepted Christ "will be" saved... the Bible does not say they "are saved".

Perseverance, endurance, running the race (to the finish) are all taught concerning the meaning of "will be" saved.

Has nothing to do with works of man, but the good works of God through man.

Slug1
Nov 10th 2013, 02:12 AM
Jesus only outlines one lot of fruitful ground in Matt 13:8: "But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold."

As Curtis said: "The only ground that produced any fruit at all was the one who heard the Word and understood it. All the others never produced anything."But the next parable teaches that uprooting the tares will also uproot the wheat. How is that possible if the OSAS doctrine is correct?

episkopos
Nov 10th 2013, 02:13 AM
I know it's cool and all to think that some day we will get some eternal life from the Lord. If that is what we believe then that is exactly what you are going to get, some day.
One small problem with this thinking.....

1Jn 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

We already have eternal life now!!!! Why are we waiting for something that we already have?

We have access to Christ and enter into His life of perfect holiness when we enter into Him. We can reflect Christ and His light like the moon does in an orbit around Christ (the Sun).

But the race is not over till it's done.

episkopos
Nov 10th 2013, 02:15 AM
I've never read anything about enduring to the end being a requirement for salvation. You are saved when you start the race, not when you finish it. Salvation cannot be earned, and overlooking this fundamental fact is necessary to oppose OSAS.



Jesus says this...


Mat_10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Slug1
Nov 10th 2013, 02:15 AM
I agree totally!!!Then that means you can't follow the OSAS doctrine :P

shepherdsword
Nov 10th 2013, 02:17 AM
I am sure you already know that the word, "arrabon" which means "Earnest money, a pledge, something which stands for part of the price and paid beforehand to confirm the transaction. The modern day translation of this same word which is, "Arrabona" which means an engagement ring"
The Holy Spirit is our engagement ring from the Lord. We are his bride already. As you probably also know that in a Jewish wedding once the price has been paid it was binding, and legal even though the ceremony has not yet happened. Later the ceremony will be held, but for now it is to late to call it off as we are his forever. The price has been paid by Christ, we are his.

Arrabon is a greek word with Phoenician roots that has a rich history in Attic greek(classical) It is a down payment that can be forfeited. Even your engagement ring analogy confirms this...if the wedding is called off the ring goes back to the groom.

If someone has the OSAS doctrine I wish they would teach it as Calvin taught it. He would turn over in his grave if he knew the way it was being watered down and applied to anyone who said a sinner's prayer. I mean,we even present the gospel in a way the Apostles didn't. Peter didn't ask Cornelius to say a prayer and "ask Jesus into his heart". Don't get me wrong I think a person can get saved like this. That's how I made my start. It's just when this is presented as some assembly line method that I struggle with it. I want to reiterate that my position on this doctrine is not a personal slam on anyone that holds it...I just want you to consider the signal it gives when applied to a backslider. You may say that such a person never had truth faith to begin with but that's not the point. The point is how the backslider himself perceives it.He thinks he is saved and has never been taught to look for the fruit that qualifies his faith. If salvation comes by simple human belief how do we test it?Didn't James say the devils also believed and trembled? How do we know it is authentic? Didn't the Lord say by their fruits we will know them?

Banislam
Nov 10th 2013, 02:19 AM
I've never read anything about enduring to the end being a requirement for salvation. You are saved when you start the race, not when you finish it. Salvation cannot be earned, and overlooking this fundamental fact is necessary to oppose OSAS.

Enduring to the end isn't a requirement for salvation. It's a condition to maintain your salvation.

The word endure means to stand, remain, endure, take one's stand.

If enduring to the end was unnecessary to maintain your salvation, then why did Jesus say,

Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Mark 4:15-17. And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.
And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness;
And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended.

If Satan is the one who comes to take away the word...and we fail to endure...to the end...Then where do you think one goes who lets Satan take away the Word?

2 Thessalonians 1:4-5 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

2 Timothy 2:10-13
Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

Slug1
Nov 10th 2013, 02:20 AM
Enduring to the end isn't a requirement for salvation. It's a condition to maintain your salvation.And when this condition isn't met until the end... what happens, are they saved or not?

Jesus is clear and He also stresses this truth through Paul... endure to the end and you will be saved.

Slug1
Nov 10th 2013, 02:25 AM
I am not angry. I am not the one sending personal insults and disparaging remarks via PM.That would be you. I am attacking a false concept. You have attacked me personally...a big difference.When a person follows a doctrine and then another person points out the error of that doctrine, the person following the doctrine will take it personal, as if you are saying "they" are in error. Thus the clear symptom of a person bound by doctrine. Due to being bound in doctrine, they can't retaliate against the Word of God in return, so they attack the person instead.

episkopos
Nov 10th 2013, 02:28 AM
I can't agree with this thought of yours. While man may say there is that gray area, the Bible is clear that there is no gray area.

However... hhmmmm, being double-minded, would you consider a Christian who is double-minded living in a "gray" area?

I have a thread on the "grey zone". I think it is important that we don't judge others based on an extreme view of black and white. I met this African evangelist once who kept saying...no man is so far removed into sin that the light can't reach him.


God is pure and perfect and when we are actually abiding INSIDE Him we are as perfect as He is. But otherwise we have grey in us so that we have NOTHING perfect in us.


In me dwelleth NO good thing....meaning nothing is perfect without the taint of a selfishness of some kind. WE are grey. But WE are also light in the Lord. It's about where we are....and what we are seeking.

Balabusha
Nov 10th 2013, 02:35 AM
It's not about arguing concerning salvation. It's about exposing false teaching compared to what the Word of God teaches. Many in the world believe the OSAS doctrine... they live a life that is not abiding in Christ because they are taught, once they accept Christ, they are saved forever more from the starting line of the race.

They will still be at the starting line when they die and never endured to the end.

There are many who believe the OSAS doctrine and FULLY endure and fully abide in Christ. Both however, believe what they believe and this is the problem with that doctrine.

Also... many how believe the NOSAS doctrine also sit at the starting line, while others endure and abide.

In the end, either belief system... those who accept Christ and don't endure to the end, will not be saved.

Maybe we are all saying the same thing, we have to be very careful because going away from the basic foundation of salvation and God's grace can line up with Roman Catholicism and we have not finished the race if we do this or don't do that.

wpm
Nov 10th 2013, 02:35 AM
Then that means you can't follow the OSAS doctrine :P

Sorry? I don't think you are understanding me. Those who are chosen will persevere to the end! He saves, and PTL, He keeps.

Slug1
Nov 10th 2013, 02:39 AM
I have a thread on the "grey zone". I think it is important that we don't judge others based on an extreme view of black and white. I met this African evangelist once who kept saying...no man is so far removed into sin that the light can't reach him.


God is pure and perfect and when we are actually abiding INSIDE Him we are as perfect as He is. But otherwise we have grey in us so that we have NOTHING perfect in us.


In me dwelleth NO good thing....meaning nothing is perfect without the taint of a selfishness of some kind. WE are grey. But WE are also light in the Lord. It's about where we are....and what we are seeking.Question then... what is the purpose of sanctification which never ends while a person is still alive? All Christians fail and thus dwell in what you call the "gray zone". While being sanctified by God, while the re-newing of the mind is being actually experienced, while ALL Christians are IN Victory, some still sin... KNOWING God will forgive them. Thus a symptom of being undiscipled and not yet being renewed in the mind, meaning, not fully Christ like.

Double-mindedness covers those who will do a sin willfully with a thought... it's OK because God will forgive me later when I seek forgiveness. Also, the term "luke warm" is pretty much all about this as well.

So is being luke-warm the "gray zone"???

shepherdsword
Nov 10th 2013, 02:40 AM
I know it's cool and all to think that some day we will get some eternal life from the Lord. If that is what we believe then that is exactly what you are going to get, some day.
One small problem with this thinking.....

1Jn 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

You don't understand the NOSAS position and are misrepresenting it. In every place where the word "believe" is used it has a continuous present tense aspect. Faith allows us to participate in a life that is in the Son.

1Jn 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.




We already have eternal life now!!!! Why are we waiting for something that we already have?


If we have the Son we have the life. So we do have eternal life now.If we do not have the Son we do not have the life. Where is the life?

1Jn 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.



We continually participate in the Son's life by a continuous action of an active faith. Not some past belief. We never see the aorist aspect used when believe is used in conjunction with salvation. This is because faith is to be an ongoing dynamic connection to Jesus. The truth is I don't have a problem with someone who is a true believer and loving Jesus with their entire being and claims eternal security. In a certain sense I think they are right. It's when this message is extrapolated to a backslider or someone who has no fruits of repentance at all that I think it becomes dangerous.it gives these people a false sense of security and causes them to disregard the numerous warning all through the New Testament. So it's a what I call a "contexual" heresy. Truth for those who are abiding and walking but a heresy for those who are not. It's all about the context.

episkopos
Nov 10th 2013, 02:47 AM
Question then... what is the purpose of sanctification which never ends while a person is still alive? All Christians fail and thus dwell in what you call the "gray zone". While being sanctified by God, while the re-newing of the mind is being actually experienced, while ALL Christians are IN Victory, some still sin... KNOWING God will forgive them. Thus a symptom of being undiscipled and not yet being renewed in the mind, meaning, not fully Christ like.


The purpose of sanctification is one of a maturity of character that knows how to keep his vessel with honour. It is not becoming sinless within ourselves. We will never overcome sin through our character alone. We are just a vessel that needs the presence of God to remain pure as He is pure.

So there is a big difference between purity and maturity. But the mature remain in the purity and are not deviated by winds of doctrine and temptations. They remain steady under trials and continue to abide in His holiness come hell or high water.




Double-mindedness covers those who will do a sin willfully with a thought... it's OK because God will forgive me later when I seek forgiveness. Also, the term "luke warm" is pretty much all about this as well.

So is being luke-warm the "gray zone"???



No. The grey zone is our lot until we reach a full maturity in the full stature of Christ. We are mixed until the fires of trials and sufferings boils away the superficialities in us. Even the very hot for God are still mixed until dealt with.

The lukewarm are displeasing to God in every way...calling grey as the light and calling light darkness... knowing nothing but claiming much. These offend holiness and will be cut off unless they turn from their wickedness.

Slug1
Nov 10th 2013, 02:47 AM
Maybe we are all saying the same thing, we have to be very careful because going away from the basic foundation of salvation and God's grace can line up with Roman Catholicism and we have not finished the race if we do this or don't do that.No... Catholisim is all about religion and a checklist of works that have to be accomplished. The Bible however teaches us in how this is all false teaching because works (of the flesh) mean nothing in the end. You are not running ANY race by jumping though the performance measures that Catholicism says a person must jump through to be saved and accepted by Christ.

It's about relationship, about enduring, about persevering, and about God's good works done through a Christian (works of faith), not the works a Christian does by themselves (works of the flesh) which are NOT works of faith... even though a religion says it is.

When the word/term "works" gets tossed into any discussion, it really seems that people have NO clue and jump immediately to "works of the flesh". The Bible clearly teaches that ALL Christians WILL DO works, if they don't, their faith is dead because there are NO works bearing evidence of faith.

Slug1
Nov 10th 2013, 02:49 AM
The purpose of sanctification is one of a maturity of character that knows how to keep his vessel with honour. It is not becoming sinless within ourselves. We will never overcome sin through our character alone. We are just a vessel that needs the presence of God to remain pure as He is pure.

So there is a big difference between purity and maturity. But the mature remain in the purity and are not deviated by winds of doctrine and temptations. They remain steady under trials ans continue to abide in His holiness.







No. The grey zone is our lot until we reach a full maturity in the full stature of Christ.

The lukewarm are displeasing to God in every way...calling grey as the light and calling light darkness... knowing nothing but claiming much. These offend holiness and will be cut off unless they turn from their wickedness.hmmmm... so when a babe in Christ (not yet reached maturity) is killed in war and has not advanced according to your thoughts in this post, if they are in the gray-zone, what happens to them eternally?

episkopos
Nov 10th 2013, 02:54 AM
hmmmm... so when a babe in Christ (not yet reached maturity) is killed in war and has not advanced according to your thoughts in this post, if they are in the gray-zone, what happens to them eternally?

All men will be judged for what they have done with what they have been given. So a person with a short time in the Lord will not be expected to bear as much fruit as someone with a lot of time in the Lord. But only God can judge a man. Only He knows what is expected of him and how to grade a man by his deeds.

I expect that God is merciful. But He will not strive with men indefinitely. We best just fear the Lord and move forward with all we have....:)

Balabusha
Nov 10th 2013, 03:05 AM
WPM
Could you explain to me the concept of assurance? What are the requirements for finishing the race?

wpm
Nov 10th 2013, 03:16 AM
WPM
Could you explain to me the concept of assurance? What are the requirements for finishing the race?

Those who are real - genuinely born of the Spirit - will persevere. They are sealed until the day of redemption. They possess a nature that hates sin and loves righteousness. This causes them to persevere. When they rebel conviction and chastisement kick in. God will do whatever it takes - and He does - to bring His wayward child back.

A phony loves their sin and don't experience conviction and chastisement. The reason being there is no Holy Spirit inside and no Father correcting His child.

Slug1
Nov 10th 2013, 03:20 AM
Those who are real - genuinely born of the Spirit - will persevere. They are sealed until the day of redemption. They possess a nature that hates sin and loves righteousness. This causes them to persevere. When they rebel conviction and chastisement kick in. God will do whatever it takes - and He does - to bring His wayward child back.

A phony loves their sin and don't experience conviction and chastisement. The reason being there is no Holy Spirit inside and no Father correcting His child.Wpm... in the Bible, God speaks of chastening His children. If what you said is 100% accurate, there is no need for God to chasten His children when they are doing wrong. You are saying a person who has accepted Christ CAN'T do wrong and you do not know how wrong you are in saying that. What you are saying means that God has NO need to chasten His children at all... yet, He says He not only WILL when they are sinning, but He does!!

wpm
Nov 10th 2013, 03:33 AM
Wpm... in the Bible, God speaks of chastening His children. If what you said is 100% accurate, there is no need for God to chasten His children when they are doing wrong. You are saying a person who has accepted Christ CAN'T do wrong and you do not know how wrong you are in saying that. What you are saying means that God has NO need to chasten His children at all... yet, He says He not only WILL when they are sinning, but He does!!

Please reread. I am saying the opposite.

Slug1
Nov 10th 2013, 03:36 AM
Please reread. I am saying the opposite.Ah... you are right, I'm reading to many posts in different threads and jumping back and replying before reengaging the brain. Things are blending. I just told my wife I was gonna read (class work)... I think it's really time to do that now :)

God bless ya!

Balabusha
Nov 10th 2013, 03:37 AM
No... Catholisim is all about religion and a checklist of works that have to be accomplished. The Bible however teaches us in how this is all false teaching because works (of the flesh) mean nothing in the end. You are not running ANY race by jumping though the performance measures that Catholicism says a person must jump through to be saved and accepted by Christ.

It's about relationship, about enduring, about persevering, and about God's good works done through a Christian (works of faith), not the works a Christian does by themselves (works of the flesh) which are NOT works of faith... even though a religion says it is.

When the word/term "works" gets tossed into any discussion, it really seems that people have NO clue and jump immediately to "works of the flesh". The Bible clearly teaches that ALL Christians WILL DO works, if they don't, their faith is dead because there are NO works bearing evidence of faith.

Actually you are wrong on the Catholic position, they also believe that salvation is a free gift from God, it is sin after converting in which we differ. They use different terminology there is a Catholic who comes out with us in the morning to the gym and coffee later, and wwe have discussed this.


No... Catholisim is all about religion and a checklist of works that have to be accomplished. The Bible however teaches us in how this is all false teaching because works (of the flesh) mean nothing in the end. You are not running ANY race by jumping though the performance measures that Catholicism says a person must jump through to be saved and accepted by Christ.

It's about relationship, about enduring, about persevering, and about God's good works done through a Christian (works of faith), not the works a Christian does by themselves (works of the flesh) which are NOT works of faith... even though a religion says it is.

When the word/term "works" gets tossed into any discussion, it really seems that people have NO clue and jump immediately to "works of the flesh". The Bible clearly teaches that ALL Christians WILL DO works, if they don't, their faith is dead because there are NO works bearing evidence of faith.

Actually you are wrong on the Catholic position, they also believe that salvation is a free gift from God, it is sin after converting in which we differ. They use different terminology there is a Catholic who comes out with us in the morning to the gym and coffee later, and wwe have discussed this.

episkopos
Nov 10th 2013, 03:40 AM
Those who are real - genuinely born of the Spirit - will persevere. They are sealed until the day of redemption. They possess a nature that hates sin and loves righteousness. This causes them to persevere. When they rebel conviction and chastisement kick in. God will do whatever it takes - and He does - to bring His wayward child back.

A phony loves their sin and don't experience conviction and chastisement. The reason being there is no Holy Spirit inside and no Father correcting His child.

You are making this about the genuineness of people and disregarding the genuineness of the seed that is the truth of the gospel. Many people get really implanted with the word...but the truth doesn't win out over other considerations. This is a performance of men issue...what you call works. So you are arguing in circles. Not everyone who receives the divine seed of salvation bears fruit.

Slug1
Nov 10th 2013, 03:45 AM
Actually you are wrong on the Catholic position, they also believe that salvation is a free gift from God, it is sin after converting in which we differ. They use different terminology there is a Catholic who comes out with us in the morning to the gym and coffee later, and wwe have discussed this.
I was a practicing Catholic for 15 years. I had to attend a "class" called Rite of Christian Indoctrination (RCIA) just to be accepted into that religion. The class has nothing to do with Christianity and only taught the rituals of that religion and all that I had to "do" (as works) to be a Catholic.

I agree with you, Catholics DO believe salvation is a free gift from God but only through the performance standards (the many sacraments throughout and person's lifetime, praying specific prayers, using the dead as mediators between themselves and God, to name some, which are just works) that they set and if any are missed, then you aren't gonna be saved in the end based on their belief "system".

I left that religion... do you know what that means for me according to the Catholic system of religion and belief?

Edit:

Since I want to go read some of my class assignment, I'll answer this. Leaving that religion means the same as it does when a person leaves the JW, or the Mormons, or Islam for that matter. Catholicism teaches that if you leave that religion, you are eternally a sinner for "leaving" THE FAITH (just like those others). ALL false religions SHARE common ground and when I was taught that to leave the Catholic religion meant I'd be eternally a sinner, unless I repented BY returning to the religion... this was confirmation to me that Catholicism is a false religion, JUST like all the others that teach the same thing about leaving those other false religions.

Ask your friend about that and if she doesn't think of me as a sinner for leaving the Catholic faith... then she is an unlearned Catholic. Or, if she doesn't agree with that teaching of Catholicism, use it as a door to help her OUT of that religion because that is only one of MANY false teachings.

shepherdsword
Nov 10th 2013, 03:59 AM
I was a practicing Catholic for 15 years. I had to attend a "class" called Rite of Christian Indoctrination (RCIA) just to be accepted into that religion. The class has nothing to do with Christianity and only taught the rituals of that religion and all that I had to "do" (as works) to be a Catholic.

I agree with you, Catholics DO believe salvation is a free gift from God but only through the performance standards (the many sacraments throughout and person's lifetime, praying specific prayers, using the dead as mediators between themselves and God, to name some, which are just works) that they set and if any are missed, then you aren't gonna be saved in the end based on their belief "system".

I left that religion... do you know what that means for me according to the Catholic system of religion and belief?

I sure do...it means the same thing it does for me. Of course they may not have believed me a true catholic anyway. I was born out of wedlock. My father's was still married to his first wife(in the RCC) when I was born to my mother. He later divorced her and married my mother. For this reason I wasn't baptized until I was 6. I think it cost my grandfather a bundle of cash to get this done. :lol:

Curtis
Nov 10th 2013, 04:08 AM
We have access to Christ and enter into His life of perfect holiness when we enter into Him. We can reflect Christ and His light like the moon does in an orbit around Christ (the Sun).

But the race is not over till it's done.

We have already entered into Christ before the foundation of the world. God hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, (2 Tim 1:9) We are not waiting to see whats going to happen because it has already happened. We are in Christ, and we are where he is right now. Stop thinking someday stuff....Just believe what God has already done.

Banislam
Nov 10th 2013, 04:21 AM
Actually you are wrong on the Catholic position, they also believe that salvation is a free gift from God, it is sin after converting in which we differ. They use different terminology there is a Catholic who comes out with us in the morning to the gym and coffee later, and we have discussed this.

I'm a Catholic (but a Christian first) and will never ever call myself a Protestant even though I go to both Catholic and Protestant churches. Protestants have become way to judgmental and offensive in many ways. Especially the fundamentalist Baptist. There's so much anti-Catholic junk out there that most Protestants have a lop sidded view of us. I think that many Protestant's are still prejudice against Catholics.

Balabusha
Nov 10th 2013, 04:38 AM
I brought up the Catholics because they at least have no grey zones-you would have taken the class and it would have been allout in the open-the JW's slowly sneak the info in.
The problem:who is the authority to how far a person can go before a person cuts themselves off from God? A speeding ticket? Or like the Catholics, is suicide a damnable offense because that person can't repent for doing it?
How about doubting every now and then?

Balabusha
Nov 10th 2013, 05:05 AM
I'm a Catholic (but a Christian first) and will never ever call myself a Protestant even though I go to both Catholic and Protestant churches. Protestants have become way to judgmental and offensive in many ways. Especially the fundamentalist Baptist. There's so much anti-Catholic junk out there that most Protestants have a lop sidded view of us. I think that many Protestant's are still prejudice against Catholics.

I think you are right, lots of Protestants believe that you are the beast and that you are going to kill them one day, I encountered the same thing with traditional SDA's, because they think we all are Babylon, it was hard to talk to them because they think that I will be part of a conspiracy to kill them for worshiping on sunday.
Just people drunk on end times wine.
That being said, I think your church is in desperate need of reform,but this is quite a pickle because then they contradict the Popes before them-what a situation! We do see gradual change-money usually causes change.
Your church has been on the right side of many heresies in the past- and is a Christian organization.
I think its view on sexuality hits the target with the Bible-not a bulls eye as they go a little to far. Modern protestants don't even hit the target on this topic.
I wish that the extra biblical dogma would drop from the Vatican and that it would go back to its roots.

Aviyah
Nov 10th 2013, 12:14 PM
I'm a Catholic (but a Christian first) and will never ever call myself a Protestant even though I go to both Catholic and Protestant churches. Protestants have become way to judgmental and offensive in many ways. Especially the fundamentalist Baptist. There's so much anti-Catholic junk out there that most Protestants have a lop sidded view of us. I think that many Protestant's are still prejudice against Catholics.

To be fair, the institution is responsible for the deaths of millions not limited to just Christians. But this is also true for Protestantism (although there is no 'Protestant church'). My major problem with Catholicism isn't the theological issues despite them being serious also, but the genocides and horrendous atrocities the RCC is guilty of. This isn't to say I blame modern-day followers for mediaeval crimes (I still love Christian Catholics), but the dark ages are not something to be forgotten out of politeness.

episkopos
Nov 10th 2013, 01:00 PM
We have already entered into Christ before the foundation of the world. God hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, (2 Tim 1:9) We are not waiting to see whats going to happen because it has already happened. We are in Christ, and we are where he is right now. Stop thinking someday stuff....Just believe what God has already done.

You are mixing in 2 different streams of thought. What God is going to do...God will do. What people will do...people will do. What we are an example of...can be known in part today...but the end of ourselves we don't know. We can have a lively HOPE...but we should remain humble and fearful.

TrustGzus
Nov 10th 2013, 02:32 PM
Thanks....

legalism : A relationship or ethical system that is governed primarily by obedience to prescribed laws or rules

Well a system that makes obedience of no import (like OSAS) seems to fall out of the defining of what legalism is. But there is an unwritten rule ( a pseudo legalism?) in the OSAS "handbook" that states that a person must claim salvation for themselves and obstinately defend that position by calling those who seek to correct their error as...unsaved. So then it is a legalistic black and white reading that makes one a part of the "saved club". I did a thread on that topic as well...... :)

This is an example that can be used in a logic textbook for an example of a strawman. This is one of the worst butcherings of what OSAS teaches that I have ever read. As others have said too, no links nor quotes for examples. And even if one could be found, because I am sure there are nuts that teach that extreme of an idea, it doesn't mean this is what most teach.

episkopos
Nov 10th 2013, 02:46 PM
This is an example that can be used in a logic textbook for an example of a strawman. This is one of the worst butcherings of what OSAS teaches that I have ever read. As others have said too, no links nor quotes for examples. And even if one could be found, because I am sure there are nuts that teach that extreme of an idea, it doesn't mean this is what most teach.

I'm sorry for the butchery. Can you please offer a better rendition?

Eyelog
Nov 10th 2013, 03:40 PM
Quote Originally Posted by wpm View Post
Those who are real - genuinely born of the Spirit - will persevere. They are sealed until the day of redemption. They possess a nature that hates sin and loves righteousness. This causes them to persevere. When they rebel conviction and chastisement kick in. God will do whatever it takes - and He does - to bring His wayward child back.

A phony loves their sin and don't experience conviction and chastisement. The reason being there is no Holy Spirit inside and no Father correcting His child.


You are making this about the genuineness of people and disregarding the genuineness of the seed that is the truth of the gospel. Many people get really implanted with the word...but the truth doesn't win out over other considerations. This is a performance of men issue...what you call works. So you are arguing in circles. Not everyone who receives the divine seed of salvation bears fruit.

We talk about 'being saved' and 'will be saved' for reasons like this. A backward looking view is the only way to know what was inevitable. Yet, those who abide in Him in fellowship and obedience have 'true' assurance of salvation.

Curtis
Nov 10th 2013, 03:40 PM
You are mixing in 2 different streams of thought. What God is going to do...God will do. What people will do...people will do. What we are an example of...can be known in part today...but the end of ourselves we don't know. We can have a lively HOPE...but we should remain humble and fearful.

We already know what the ends of things are because God has shown it unto us by his Spirit....

1Co 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

I guess some are not seeing these things yet...

Balabusha
Nov 10th 2013, 04:44 PM
To be fair, the institution is responsible for the deaths of millions not limited to just Christians. But this is also true for Protestantism (although there is no 'Protestant church'). My major problem with Catholicism isn't the theological issues despite them being serious also, but the genocides and horrendous atrocities the RCC is guilty of. This isn't to say I blame modern-day followers for mediaeval crimes (I still love Christian Catholics), but the dark ages are not something to be forgotten out of politeness.

-If you do some careful research Aviyah, you will find these stats very misguided. Even one death in the name of God is blasphemy, we did some research on this a year ago.
We should use facts and the Bible to counter problematic teaching.

TrustGzus
Nov 10th 2013, 04:45 PM
I'm sorry for the butchery. Can you please offer a better rendition?

You stated that a system of OSAS makes obedience of no import. Perhaps you were part of a group that claimed this. I simply have never been part of a group that said this.

Noeb has repeated asked you for quotes from sources. John MacArthur is a big proponent of OSAS. He wouldn't probably call it that. He calls it eternal security. That being said, he writes . . .


The gospel Jesus proclaimed was a call to discipleship, a call to follow him in submissive obedience, not just a plea to make a decision or pray a prayer.

MacArthur, J. F., Jr. (2000). The Gospel according to Jesus: what does Jesus mean when he says “follow me”. Grand Rapids, MI: Academic and Professional Books, Zondervan Pub. House.

A call to follow him in submissive obedience.

He further writes . . .


Clearly no past experience—not even prophesying, casting out demons, or doing signs and wonders—can be viewed as evidence of salvation apart from a life of obedience.

MacArthur, J. F., Jr. (2000). The Gospel according to Jesus: what does Jesus mean when he says “follow me”. Grand Rapids, MI: Academic and Professional Books, Zondervan Pub. House.

Now you might see a different purpose in obedience. MacArthur states in that sentence that past miraculous signs cannot be view as evidence of salvation apart from a life of obedience. So he sees obedience as very important. It is evidence that God really is working in a person's life.

No obedience = no evidence.

So obedience isn't of no import. It's very important!

I could give dozens of examples from him. But we should look at others.

Zane Hodges was one of the people MacArthur spent a lot of time countering in the book I quoted from. He would call Zane Hodges one who teaches "easy believism." Your comment might reflect those of the "easy believism" camp. However, Hodges writes such statements as . . .


But what does it mean to “love one another”? The answer: This is love, that we walk in obedience to His commands. As he had also done in 1 John 5:2–3a, John defined Christian love in terms of obedience to God. A Christian who truly seeks God’s best for his brothers and sisters can only do so by obeying what God has commanded him to do. Love undirected by God’s revealed will may easily degenerate into unwise, sentimental activity. Believers who are “walking in the truth” (2 John 4), that is, living in response to what God has revealed, love each other. Brotherly love is part of the truth God has revealed and commanded.

Hodges, Z. C. (1985). 2 John. (J. F. Walvoord & R. B. Zuck, Eds.)The Bible Knowledge Commentary: An Exposition of the Scriptures. Wheaton, IL: Victor Books.

"John defined Christian love in terms of obedience to God." Sounds like obedience is important with Hodges too.

So it seems to me that those who teach OSAS (at least knowledgeable men who have solid theological training - not just anybody who can post a sentence on the internet) think that obedience is important. The fact that they think once a person is saved that they are eternal secure does not imply that obedience is not important. What they conclude or think about why the obedience is important might be different than your thoughts on it, but it is important to them nonetheless.

TrustGzus
Nov 10th 2013, 04:53 PM
Charles Ryrie is another "easy believism" Christian that MacArthur was countering. Ryrie, like MacArthur and Hodges believes in eternal security. He writes . . .


Becoming a Christian does not exempt one from sinning or free him from obedience to the law of Christ. To say it does is to fall into one or both of the common errors concerning the Christian and sin. The one is a false perfectionism and the other antinomianism.

Ryrie, Charles Caldwell. (1999). Basic Theology: A Popular Systematic Guide to Understanding Biblical Truth (p. 264). Chicago, IL: Moody Press.

So there are three authors from one end of the eternal security spectrum to the other. None of them think obedience is of no import.

Oregongrown
Nov 10th 2013, 05:04 PM
Hello Epi,
I've looked at many comments on the OSAS' position, and the main thing I've noticed is that no matter how much scripture you present contradicting this erroneous perspective, they simply disregard it. I think this may due to many OSAS' desire to simply not have to conform to the Way Jesus led by example.
This denying of Gods Word, also holds true for pre tribbers, who despite an overwhelming amount of evidence to the contrary, they simply disregard those scriptures so that they can be comfortable in believing that they will not have to experience any Great tribulation.

Maybe you guys could start a bible forum and you could call it "The Bible, Our Way of Seeing It is the Only Way of Seeing It" Then folks would know that they will need to agree with you on everything to be saved? Of course, Google finds it hard on their search engines when you have long site URL's, maybe you can shorten it up to "I know it all" no spaces?

Oregongrown
Nov 10th 2013, 05:14 PM
We already know what the ends of things are because God has shown it unto us by his Spirit....

1Co 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

I guess some are not seeing these things yet...

Hi Curtis, as I read the bible, the Holy Spirit does show me Truth, as I go. He hasn't shown me all things, either because I am not "tuned" in enough (thinking about other things) or maybe God will reveal things when He is ready. That's why I sometimes try to not use commentaries, although I think they can help me. I agree with what you are saying here, just that I haven't read the whole bible, so I don't know all His Word and what He will reveal to me. But, it is there for all to have if they want to know Truth, so good post for me!

Curtis
Nov 10th 2013, 05:44 PM
Hi Curtis, as I read the bible, the Holy Spirit does show me Truth, as I go. He hasn't shown me all things, either because I am not "tuned" in enough (thinking about other things) or maybe God will reveal things when He is ready. That's why I sometimes try to not use commentaries, although I think they can help me. I agree with what you are saying here, just that I haven't read the whole bible, so I don't know all His Word and what He will reveal to me. But, it is there for all to have if they want to know Truth, so good post for me!

Good morning Oregongrown, I think once we find out what scripture tells us, then we can to expect these things to become a reality in our lives. If I did not know this verse I would have never seen the things the Lord has prepared for me. Knowing is everything, but knowing is only the beginning to understanding which the Lord gives us that causes us to live in it's reality. The end of understanding is faith. It is easy to have faith when you have understanding. It is when we do not understand that we fall short of acquiring the fulfillment of God's Word in our lives.

God Bless your adventures in his Kingdom.

Oregongrown
Nov 10th 2013, 05:51 PM
Good morning Oregongrown, I think once we find out what scripture tells us, then we can to expect these things to become a reality in our lives. If I did not know this verse I would have never seen the things the Lord has prepared for me. Knowing is everything, but knowing is only the beginning to understanding which the Lord gives us that causes us to live in it's reality. The end of understanding is faith. It is easy to have faith when you have understanding. It is when we do not understand that we fall short of acquiring the fulfillment of God's Word in our lives.

God Bless your adventures in his Kingdom. I didn't understand anything other than I needed to have faith in something real, something I think that was drawing me, that something turned out to be the God of the bible. My understanding is growing, but it never came first for me anyway.

episkopos
Nov 10th 2013, 06:35 PM
You stated that a system of OSAS makes obedience of no import. Perhaps you were part of a group that claimed this. I simply have never been part of a group that said this.

If one is against "works for salvation"...is how they put it, then obedience takes away from belief alone. They claim that obedience is unto rewards....since their salvation is already guaranteed in a "done deal" moment in the past.


Noeb has repeated asked you for quotes from sources.

Noeb has his own ideas and issues :)



John MacArthur is a big proponent of OSAS. He wouldn't probably call it that. He calls it eternal security. That being said, he writes . . .

I see a big difference between OSAS and eternal security. Eternal security means we can trust the Lord to do as He said...OSAS says we can CLAIM the promises for ourselves.


A call to follow him in submissive obedience.

That is NOT OSAS. Any call to obedience is seen as works...it is claimed that faith alone...apart from works saves us.






Now you might see a different purpose in obedience. MacArthur states in that sentence that past miraculous signs cannot be view as evidence of salvation apart from a life of obedience. So he sees obedience as very important. It is evidence that God really is working in a person's life.

No obedience = no evidence.

I agree!


So obedience isn't of no import. It's very important!

Yes...it is the actual tipping point...faith without obedience is nothing...



Zane Hodges was one of the people MacArthur spent a lot of time countering in the book I quoted from. He would call Zane Hodges one who teaches "easy believism." Your comment might reflect those of the "easy believism" camp. However, Hodges writes such statements as . . .

OSAS IS easy believism...


"John defined Christian love in terms of obedience to God." Sounds like obedience is important with Hodges too.

So did Jesus...


So it seems to me that those who teach OSAS (at least knowledgeable men who have solid theological training - not just anybody who can post a sentence on the internet) think that obedience is important.

Please get involved on the many OSAS threads...and help those who are stuck in a bad teaching.



The fact that they think once a person is saved that they are eternal secure does not imply that obedience is not important.

You wouldn't think so....but that is the difference between OSAS and eternal security.


What they conclude or think about why the obedience is important might be different than your thoughts on it, but it is important to them nonetheless.

They believe that obedience IS JUST believing...do you see the scheme?

Eyelog
Nov 10th 2013, 07:06 PM
They believe that obedience IS JUST believing...do you see the scheme?

Do OSAS believe Jesus will obey for them, as a by-product of their saving faith?

episkopos
Nov 10th 2013, 07:13 PM
Do OSAS believe Jesus will obey for them, as a by-product of their saving faith?

They believe that whatever they do they are not held responsible for beyond losing their "bonus". They remain positionally pure even while they indulge in the dirt....


Jesus did it all already! What can you add to that?

Neanias
Nov 10th 2013, 07:42 PM
Do OSAS believe Jesus will obey for them, as a by-product of their saving faith?

Better yet, they believe Jesus has already obeyed for them. It's all done. When Jesus finished his race... He finished theirs!

But the truth is we each have a race to run... By his grace, we can actually enter that race, and by his grace we can run, but we are the ones who run.

An engine cannot run without fuel, but when an engine is filled with fuel and running, do we say that the fuel is running, or the engine?

So God has given us a new nature (engine), and his Spirit and grace upon us (fuel) is what allows our new nature to function and produce the fruit. It is not of ourselves, because we have created neither the new nature, nor are we the source of this grace, he is. But we are responsible for taking what is given us, and going to the throne of grace to receive the fuel that is necessary to make it run.

That is how by faith we receive grace, so that we can actually run, and do his works. Is it nothing of ourselves? Nothing of our power, or our gift, or our strength. That is all from him. But it does not function without our submission and co-operation. That part is actually up to us.

To whom more is given more is expected.

episkopos
Nov 10th 2013, 07:46 PM
Better yet, they believe Jesus has already obeyed for them. It's all done. When Jesus finished his race... He finished theirs!

But the truth is we each have a race to run... By his grace, we can actually enter that race, and by his grace we can run, but we are the ones who run.

An engine cannot run without fuel, but when an engine is filled with fuel and running, do we say that the fuel is running, or the engine?

So God has given us a new nature (engine), and his Spirit and grace upon us (fuel) is what allows our new nature to function and produce the fruit. It is not of ourselves, because we have created neither the new nature, nor are we the source of this grace, he is. But we are responsible for taking what is given us, and going to the throne of grace to receive the fuel that is necessary to make it run.

That is how by faith we receive grace, so that we can actually run, and do his works. Is it nothing of ourselves? Nothing of our power, or our gift, or our strength. That is all from him. But it does not function without our submission and co-operation. That part is actually up to us.

To whom more is given more is expected.


Could your engine and fuel illustration be compared to having a lamp and also some oil for it?

(I know what you think but I'm writing this for those who maybe would not make the connection) ;)

Aviyah
Nov 10th 2013, 07:55 PM
-If you do some careful research Aviyah, you will find these stats very misguided. Even one death in the name of God is blasphemy, we did some research on this a year ago. We should use facts and the Bible to counter problematic teaching.

Well I have done a lot of research on it, which is actually what opened my eyes to what was going on back then. The organization has a dark and bloody past. I feel that to ignore this important era of history disgraces the millions of true Christians in the time period who did not conform and were persecuted often to the point of a brutal execution. We have access to God's Word because courageous men and women stood against the Roman church. I don't think it is foolish to be wary of that institution.

Noeb
Nov 10th 2013, 08:05 PM
If one is against "works for salvation"...is how they put it, then obedience takes away from belief alone. They claim that obedience is unto rewards....since their salvation is already guaranteed in a "done deal" moment in the past.No. Obedience is a result of faith.



Noeb has his own ideas and issues :)No. TrustGzus has taken the time to do what I should have and has put the final nail in the coffin, per say, of your misguided perceptions on the subject.



I see a big difference between OSAS and eternal security.I do too.



Eternal security means we can trust the Lord to do as He said...as long as we keep the faith.....



OSAS says we can CLAIM the promises for ourselves.It's much more than just that. There's no claim without faith, which is evidence.



That is NOT OSAS. Any call to obedience is seen as worksNot true. Obedience is a result of faith.



...it is claimed that faith alone...apart from works saves us.Sure. That's Bible 101!



They believe that obedience IS JUST believing...do you see the scheme?He who believes obeys, yes.

Noeb
Nov 10th 2013, 08:07 PM
They believe that whatever they do they are not held responsible for beyond losing their "bonus". They remain positionally pure even while they indulge in the dirt....That's Gnosticism not OSAS :B

Neanias
Nov 10th 2013, 08:07 PM
Could your engine and fuel illustration be compared to having a lamp and also some oil for it?

(I know what you think but I'm writing this for those who maybe would not make the connection) ;)

;) (I will answer, although you know what I think, for the same reason)

Yes, indeed! :) It would be hard to make sense of the idea that the foolish virgins 'stopped believing in Jesus as savior', since they knock at the door and He says 'I never knew you'. The same he said to the lawless that called him 'Lord, Lord'.

If we have a lamp, let us buy oil. If we are alive in the Spirit, let also walk in the Spirit.

episkopos
Nov 10th 2013, 08:08 PM
No. Obedience is a result of faith.


No. TrustGzus has taken the time to do what I should have and has put the final nail in the coffin, per say, of your misguided perceptions on the subject.


I do too.


as long as we keep the faith.....


It's much more than just that. There's no claim without faith, which is evidence.


Not true. Obedience is a result of faith.


Sure. That's Bible 101!


He who believes obeys, yes.


Thanks for your replies Noeb!

Neanias
Nov 10th 2013, 08:08 PM
That's Gnosticism not OSAS :B


Same difference unless you can show otherwise. The connections have been made very strongly.

Noeb
Nov 10th 2013, 08:15 PM
Same difference unless you can show otherwise. The connections have been made very strongly.Really? No. While Gnostics are OSAS not all OSAS are Gnostic. Just a fact.

episkopos
Nov 10th 2013, 08:18 PM
Really? No. While Gnostics are OSAS not all OSAS are Gnostic. Just a fact.

It's all wrong anyway. Are we here to split hairs?

Eyelog
Nov 10th 2013, 08:35 PM
Are we here to split hairs?

Some of us can afford to do that more than others of us.

Eyelog
Nov 10th 2013, 08:37 PM
No. Obedience is a result of faith.

You mean, obedience is the action component of living faith, rooted in hope. Otherwise, you are wrong.

---edited point---

Actually, the Word loosely speaks of faith in the heart, which is the correlate of hope in the heart.

Noeb
Nov 10th 2013, 11:13 PM
You mean, obedience is the action component of living faith, rooted in hope. Otherwise, you are wrong.

---edited point---

Actually, the Word loosely speaks of faith in the heart, which is the correlate of hope in the heart.You quoted me but have episkopos' name on it. My statement stands, according to scripture. You can't find living faith in scripture.

Noeb
Nov 10th 2013, 11:15 PM
It's all wrong anyway. Are we here to split hairs?the king of splitting hairs asks.....

Eyelog
Nov 10th 2013, 11:34 PM
You can't find living faith in scripture.

26 For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead. James 2.

If faith has works, then it is what? Undead?

TrustGzus
Nov 10th 2013, 11:46 PM
If one is against "works for salvation"...is how they put it, then obedience takes away from belief alone. They claim that obedience is unto rewards....since their salvation is already guaranteed in a "done deal" moment in the past.

So are you saying works save and that we are not saved by grace alone through faith alone?



I see a big difference between OSAS and eternal security. Eternal security means we can trust the Lord to do as He said...OSAS says we can CLAIM the promises for ourselves.

Well, this can lead to a lot of confusion if you see these terms as being different. Lots of people use these terms interchangeably. I am one. I believe in eternal security. And if it's true that I am eternal secure, then that's not really different than saying once I am saved, I am always saved. Dr. R.C. Sproul, who definitely doesn't believe in easy believism recognizes the term OSAS as referring to his view though he probably isn't fond of the phrase OSAS. He states . . .


The P of TULIP stands for perseverance, the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints. Like other terms represented by the acrostic TULIP, perseverance is somewhat misleading. It suggests that the continuity of faith and obedience is accomplished by the believer alone. Indeed the believer does persevere in faith and godliness, but this is due to the gracious work of God in his behalf. More accurate than perseverance is preservation. We persevere because we are preserved by God. If left to our own strength, none of us would persevere. Only because we are preserved by grace are we able to persevere at all.
A simple way to remember the essence of the doctrine of perseverance is to learn this ditty: “If we have it, we never lose it. If we lose it, we never had it.” This is a “cute” way of affirming that full and final apostasy is never the lot of the Christian. Another shorthand expression of this doctrine is the aphorism “Once saved, always saved.” This is sometimes called eternal security, since it calls attention to the enduring power of the salvation wrought for us and in us by the work of Christ.

Sproul, R. C. (2000). Grace unknown: the heart of reformed theology (pp. 197–198). Grand Rapids: Baker Books.

Bolding by TrustGzus

Same with Dr. Norman Geisler . . .


The primary terms that relate to the certainty of salvation are assurance and security. However, there are other words or phrases often used, such as the perseverance of the saints; eternal security; once saved, always saved; and the assurance of the believers.

Geisler, N. L. (2004). Systematic theology, volume three: sin, salvation (p. 300). Minneapolis, MN: Bethany House Publishers.

Back to your thoughts . . .


That is NOT OSAS. Any call to obedience is seen as works...it is claimed that faith alone...apart from works saves us.

We are saved apart from works. But the faith that saves results in works.

J.I. Packer writes . . .


The truth is that, though we are justified by faith alone, the faith that justifies is never alone. It produces moral fruit; it expresses itself “through love” (Gal. 5:6); it transforms one’s way of living; it begets virtue. This is not only because holiness is commanded, but also because the regenerate heart, of which fiducia is the expression, desires holiness and can find full contentment only in seeking it.

Packer, J. I. (1993). Concise theology: a guide to historic Christian beliefs. Wheaton, IL: Tyndale House.


Yes...it is the actual tipping point...faith without obedience is nothing...

It's interesting that John MacArthur, who claims to adhere to OSAS says almost what you just said. I'll quote two quotes of his from the same book . . .


The issue of eternal security, or “once saved, always saved,” has been hotly debated throughout much of church history. Everyone agrees that the truth or falsehood of that doctrine is of immense importance. But it is also crucial to the believer to recognize the evidence that he actually has that real salvation. Once security is established as a fact of salvation, then assurance must be maintained in the heart of the Christian subjectively.

MacArthur, J. F., Jr. (1991). Romans (p. 270). Chicago: Moody Press.

Earlier in the same book . . .


The heart of Jesus’ teaching in the Sermon on the Mount is that faith without obedience is not saving faith, but is certain evidence that a person is following the wide and delusive road of the world that leads to destruction, rather than the narrow road of God that leads to eternal life (Matt. 7:13–14).

MacArthur, J. F., Jr. (1991). Romans (p. 25). Chicago: Moody Press.

Yet you write . . .


OSAS IS easy believism...

But as you can see from the quotes from the same book above from MacArthur, and in my previous posts, authors who claim the "title" OSAS for their view teach the importance of obedience.

So, I guess I'm encouraging you to use caution and not use such a broad brush.

As I read, my main concern is what is your view of works? Are they merely evidence or are they meritorious?

episkopos
Nov 10th 2013, 11:53 PM
So are you saying works save and that we are not saved by grace alone through faith alone?



Well, this can lead to a lot of confusion if you see these terms as being different. Lots of people use these terms interchangeably. I am one. I believe in eternal security. And if it's true that I am eternal secure, then that's not really different than saying once I am saved, I am always saved. Dr. R.C. Sproul, who definitely doesn't believe in easy believism recognizes the term OSAS as referring to his view though he probably isn't fond of the phrase OSAS. He states . . .



Same with Dr. Norman Geisler . . .



Back to your thoughts . . .



We are saved apart from works. But the faith that saves results in works.

J.I. Packer writes . . .





It's interesting that John MacArthur, who claims to adhere to OSAS says almost what you just said. I'll quote two quotes of his from the same book . . .



Earlier in the same book . . .



Yet you write . . .



But as you can see from the quotes from the same book above from MacArthur, and in my previous posts, authors who claim the "title" OSAS for their view teach the importance of obedience.

So, I guess I'm encouraging you to use caution and not use such a broad brush.

As I read, my main concern is what is your view of works? Are they merely evidence or are they meritorious?

I think it is a vain religion that tries to make a formula about something as deep as spiritual life. All formulas are dead.

People knock works without understanding the issue from the reality of a spiritual walk.


Doing good is always good. When is doing good not good? When is it wrong to do the right thing?

Anything a person does in order to justify himself is wrong...even believe.

Noeb
Nov 11th 2013, 12:58 AM
26 For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead. James 2.

If faith has works, then it is what? Undead?No. Doing a faith means one does the faith.

Faith here is Christianity. You ask someone....what is your faith? Christianity, Judaism, Muslim...etc
Jas 2:1 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.

Jas 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
Jas 2:9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
Jas 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

This is not talking about some confession, ability to believe, or power as some wrongfully say. This is about claiming to follow a system/law, a faith, and either doing or not doing the system/law one claims to follow. The system/law is not dead or alive. It just is....the system/law. If someone claims to follow the system/law but does not do the system/law, they don't really follow the system/law, now do they?

Neanias
Nov 11th 2013, 02:52 AM
I think it is a vain religion that tries to make a formula about something as deep as spiritual life. All formulas are dead.

People knock works without understanding the issue from the reality of a spiritual walk.


Doing good is always good. When is doing good not good? When is it wrong to do the right thing?

Anything a person does in order to justify himself is wrong...even believe.

The Lord said 'they will call good evil and evil good'.

And I don't think he meant that's a good thing... ;)

Balabusha
Nov 11th 2013, 04:19 AM
Well I have done a lot of research on it, which is actually what opened my eyes to what was going on back then. The organization has a dark and bloody past. I feel that to ignore this important era of history disgraces the millions of true Christians in the time period who did not conform and were persecuted often to the point of a brutal execution. We have access to God's Word because courageous men and women stood against the Roman church. I don't think it is foolish to be wary of that institution.

I don't think it is foolish to be wary of any institution. The problem is that you want to make for sure that your research is grounded on accurate sources.
If you do the research you should find a very inept organization having their own sovereign state. They were always at the mercy of more powerful countries around them, they were in exile for a number of years in france.
In most instances there were religious fanaticism going on were local nobility waged religious strife. Like the protestant and catholic problems in Ireland. It would be like blaming protestants in New York for African animist Christians using child soldiers to terrorize villiages in guerrila warfare.
I think it was Calvin had a heretic burned at the stake in Geneva-this was not a Protestant directive. It was a localized event.
Martin Luther was fine because the local rulers were not persecuting him
This is not to say they were squeeky clean-this is not the point-it is just that your millions does not add up
I will take the Pepsi challenge on this any day because our church (Protestant)did extensive research.

wpm
Nov 11th 2013, 06:02 AM
Well I have done a lot of research on it, which is actually what opened my eyes to what was going on back then. The organization has a dark and bloody past. I feel that to ignore this important era of history disgraces the millions of true Christians in the time period who did not conform and were persecuted often to the point of a brutal execution. We have access to God's Word because courageous men and women stood against the Roman church. I don't think it is foolish to be wary of that institution.

Totally correct. It has not changed its character just its PR. Where do you start when it comes to error and idolatry with that system? If keeping to the Bible makes a Church Christian I cannot accept the Catholic Church as Christian. It is apostate. Christ didn't embrace the Pharisees He separated from them.

wpm
Nov 11th 2013, 06:04 AM
I don't think it is foolish to be wary of any institution. The problem is that you want to make for sure that your research is grounded on accurate sources.
If you do the research you should find a very inept organization having their own sovereign state. They were always at the mercy of more powerful countries around them, they were in exile for a number of years in france.
In most instances there were religious fanaticism going on were local nobility waged religious strife. Like the protestant and catholic problems in Ireland. It would be like blaming protestants in New York for African animist Christians using child soldiers to terrorize villiages in guerrila warfare.
I think it was Calvin had a heretic burned at the stake in Geneva-this was not a Protestant directive. It was a localized event.
Martin Luther was fine because the local rulers were not persecuting him
This is not to say they were squeeky clean-this is not the point-it is just that your millions does not add up
I will take the Pepsi challenge on this any day because our church (Protestant)did extensive research.

I have studied the Scottish Reformers and Scottish Covenanters. I have led many tours round the martyr sites. One grave in Edinburgh alone hold 18,000 martyrs killed because of their stance for truth.

TheDivineWatermark
Nov 11th 2013, 06:41 AM
No. Doing a faith means one does the faith.

Faith here is Christianity. You ask someone....what is your faith? Christianity, Judaism, Muslim...etc
Jas 2:1 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.


[^ underlining mine]

I agree that most of the "faith" verses in James 2 (including verse 26) are "the faith"... that body of truth which makes up the NT... or as you could call it (which you did), "Christianity." This is what we possess ("have"), and are "in" (by means of Jesus Christ). Other verses in the NT refer to "faith" [minus the definite article] in the sense of "our belief/trust."

Eyelog
Nov 11th 2013, 10:25 AM
The system/law is not dead or alive. It just is....the system/law. If someone claims to follow the system/law but does not do the system/law, they don't really follow the system/law, now do they?

Interpreting the term, faith, to indicate a faith system does not change James words, nor intent. He said it was "dead" and implied thereby that if one does what they hold to in faith that is a living faith.

This is linguistically like how we speak of live and dead languages. Languages used for colloquial purposes by a people are alive, and those that are no longer used in that way are dead.

But this does not change the meaning of a living faith vs. a dead faith. Works in keeping with the faith or hope one holds in their heart complete or perfect the faith into a living faith.


Inner hope/faith without works is dead.

Works without that inner hope/faith are dead as well.

Balabusha
Nov 11th 2013, 11:14 AM
I have studied the Scottish Reformers and Scottish Covenanters. I have led many tours round the martyr sites. One grave in Edinburgh alone hold 18,000 martyrs killed because of their stance for truth.

I actually have no fight in this quarrel, just to search the truth. If I was to be honest, both Protestants and Catholics have really done a number on my ancestors, both groups sat in their pews while the ashes of relatives wafted over their combined steeples, but to be fair both Catholics and Protestants alike did loose their lives trying to hide us or fight for us also.
Let take a look at Luther's words of kindness towards us...
. . . Let their houses also be shattered and destroyed . . . Let their prayer books and Talmuds be taken from them, and their whole Bible too; let their rabbis be forbidden, on pain of death, to teach henceforth any more. Let the streets and highways be closed against them. Let them be forbidden to practice usury, and let all their money, and all their treasures of silver and gold be taken from them and put away in safety. And if all this be not enough, let them be driven like mad dogs out of the land.

What you mentioned was a civil war which also went both ways-it just depended on who had more power at any given time. If a person who was in office practiced Catholicism under Elizabeth they would have been hanged and quartered. It later went thru the whole country and practicing Catholicism was treason.
The same action went against Protestants by Mary.The Jesuit's were persecuted in England by Protestants-it just goes back and forth...
The Huguenots massacre in France started small and then went out of control, the Huguenot controlled area of France did the same horrid things to Catholics. It was civil unrest.
Just so I don't get a swelled head, when the Jews were in power-they tried to wipe out the Christian church.

I think we should stick to the Bible-the history on both sides stinks, but our research has shown that that the numbers are inflated due to prejudice.

Eyelog
Nov 11th 2013, 11:50 AM
I think it is a vain religion that tries to make a formula about something as deep as spiritual life. All formulas are dead.

People knock works without understanding the issue from the reality of a spiritual walk.


Doing good is always good. When is doing good not good? When is it wrong to do the right thing?

Anything a person does in order to justify himself is wrong...even believe.

The Gospel is a formula, brother. The question is whether it will be followed like a formula or in Spirit and in truth.

shepherdsword
Nov 11th 2013, 11:58 AM
The Gospel is a formula, brother. The question is whether it will be followed like a formula or in Spirit and in truth.


A technique or method which has a stated result. If the result is not forthcoming should we not examine the technique to see where we failed?

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.


If I build a radio or some other device using the instructions and it fails to power on when I try to use it,what do I do? Do I just set it on the shelf talk about it being in the right "position" or do I need to go back and re-read the instructions to see why it failed to work? Likewise,if our faith is not leading us into the works that God has pre-ordained for us to walk in then I suggest we reexamine our concept of faith and grace. They have a stated result that cannot be ignored.

episkopos
Nov 11th 2013, 02:04 PM
The Gospel is a formula, brother. The question is whether it will be followed like a formula or in Spirit and in truth.

It's not a formula....it isn't scientific. God is a real person. If two people do exactly the same thing, God can justify the one and condemn the other based on their attitude. God sees the hearts of men. Men do not see themselves so then it is the height of foolishness to stumble blindly along in the things of God. God sees!!!!

Many of these threads on the forum are so foolish and grieving to God yet the writers don't realize what mockery they are bringing to the gospel.

shepherdsword
Nov 11th 2013, 02:13 PM
It's not a formula....it isn't scientific. God is a real person. If two people do exactly the same thing, God can justify the one and condemn the other based on their attitude. God sees the hearts of men. Men do not see themselves so then it is the height of foolishness to stumble blindly along in the things of God. God sees!!!!

Many of these threads on the forum are so foolish and grieving to God yet the writers don't realize what mockery they are bringing to the gospel.

I truly do not claim to see. I am blind in so many areas. However,I have had enough experience to know what doesn't cut it in the Lord's eyes. I fully understand that giving lip service that springs from an indoctrinated tradition is what cause the fall of the Pharisees. They were so blinded by what they thought they understood that they rejected the truth even though,as a living person,it stood right before their face. How can we,with our limited understanding,present a half message with a double mind and expect salvation?

episkopos
Nov 11th 2013, 02:21 PM
I truly do not claim to see. I am blind in so many areas. However,I have had enough experience to know what doesn't cut it in the Lord's eyes. I fully understand that giving lip service that springs from an indoctrinated tradition is what cause the fall of the Pharisees. They were so blinded by what they thought they understood that they rejected the truth even though,as a living person,it stood right before their face. How can we,with our limited understanding,present a half message with a double mind and expect salvation?

Amen Shep! ......................

Eyelog
Nov 11th 2013, 02:22 PM
It's not a formula.... If two people do exactly the same thing, God can justify the one and condemn the other based on their attitude. God sees the hearts of men.

Brother, you just demonstrated my point. Two people follow the same formula, one does so in Spirit and in truth, the other does not. The first enters in; the second does not.

episkopos
Nov 11th 2013, 02:26 PM
The gospel was never meant to produce a people who justified themselves by their beliefs. That is a man subverted deviation from the purpose of the gospel.

Rather the gospel is the announcing of a new access that we have to walk in God's very presence through abiding in Christ. The proof of this is the power of a life lived in the same power that strengthened Jesus Christ when He walked the earth.

By faith we enter into the spiritual reality where we are given power over sin, demons, and death itself. Even just a few people that walk in that power will change the world around them.

Eyelog
Nov 11th 2013, 02:31 PM
The gospel was never meant to produce a people who justified themselves by their beliefs. That is a man subverted deviation from the purpose of the gospel.

Rather the gospel is the announcing of a new access that we have to walk in God's very presence through abiding in Christ. The proof of this is the power of a life lived in the same power that strengthened Jesus Christ when He walked the earth.

By faith we enter into the spiritual reality where we are given power over sin, demons, and death itself. Even just a few people that walk in that power will change the world around them.

Amen. This time I am arguing about words, because they have to be used. Methods, formulas and how-to's are not only essential to help the uninitiated, but they are the reality. We do this, then that, then this, then that -- to put us in a place of seeking and receiving. Once we receive, we may well not be able to predict our steps. I agree with that, too.

As much as the idea of a formula may convey the wrong message, the idea of no formula may convey the wrong message.

episkopos
Nov 11th 2013, 02:38 PM
Amen. This time I am arguing about words, because they have to be used. Methods, formulas and how-to's are not only essential to help the uninitiated, but they are the reality. We do this, then that, then this, then that -- to put us in a place of seeking and receiving. Once we receive, we may well not be able to predict our steps. I agree with that, too.

As much as the idea of a formula may convey the wrong message, the idea of no formula may convey the wrong message.



The formula is a living person. Jesus is the way. the truth and the life. There are no other words that can break this down into smaller pieces. The truth is a whole or else it is only a partial truth.

Noeb
Nov 11th 2013, 02:43 PM
[^ underlining mine]

I agree that most of the "faith" verses in James 2 (including verse 26) are "the faith"... that body of truth which makes up the NT... or as you could call it (which you did), "Christianity." This is what we possess ("have"), and are "in" (by means of Jesus Christ). Other verses in the NT refer to "faith" [minus the definite article] in the sense of "our belief/trust."I agree, and verses here are about our belief/trust, but it's not a spirit or power that is alive or dead. Claiming the faith in vain means you don't have it. Claiming belief/trust in the faith in vain means you don't believe/trust. It is not a force that is either alive or dead. The language is used to make a point not to make a new doctrine.

Noeb
Nov 11th 2013, 02:51 PM
The gospel was never meant to produce a people who justified themselves by their beliefs.If I'm not justified because I am a doer of what I believe and not just a hearer, how then?

episkopos
Nov 11th 2013, 03:10 PM
If I'm not justified because I am a doer of what I believe and not just a hearer, how then?

If you wish to justify yourself for a belief then you are self-justifying....if you choose to improve on that and justify yourself for not only believing but ALSO DOING what you believe...then you are still self-justifying...


You can't get around it. ANYTHING we claim that justifies us is the same self-justification effort taking place.

Eyelog
Nov 11th 2013, 03:48 PM
The formula is a living person. Jesus is the way. the truth and the life. There are no other words that can break this down into smaller pieces. The truth is a whole or else it is only a partial truth.

I can live with that formulation. : )

episkopos
Nov 11th 2013, 04:31 PM
I can live with that formulation. : )

;)....................

Noeb
Nov 11th 2013, 05:42 PM
If you wish to justify yourself for a belief then you are self-justifying....if you choose to improve on that and justify yourself for not only believing but ALSO DOING what you believe...then you are still self-justifying...


You can't get around it. ANYTHING we claim that justifies us is the same self-justification effort taking place.oh come on, any claim of justification is based on scripture. It is not like anyone is making it up.

James 2:21-24 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

episkopos
Nov 18th 2013, 02:55 PM
oh come on, any claim of justification is based on scripture. It is not like anyone is making it up.

James 2:21-24 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

The only people that justified themselves in the bible were the Pharisees.

Noeb
Nov 18th 2013, 04:10 PM
And if their behavior had been just they would have been right ;) but that's not even the point. No one here is justifying themselves.