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shepherdsword
Nov 10th 2013, 06:21 AM
2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.


When we stand before Jesus on what basis will He judge us?

exitludos
Nov 10th 2013, 06:22 AM
According to what we have done.

TheDivineWatermark
Nov 10th 2013, 06:37 AM
"If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward." 1 Corinthians 3:14

"Work" will be judged (for reward), not our salvation (only believers are present at this judgment).

shepherdsword
Nov 10th 2013, 06:40 AM
"If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward." 1 Corinthians 3:14

"Work" will be judged (for reward), not our salvation (only believers are present at this judgment).

Joh_12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

The word will judge all...even those that reject him.

Joh 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

There will be some that stand before him and hear this:

Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

TheDivineWatermark
Nov 10th 2013, 07:10 AM
Joh_12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

The word will judge all...even those that reject him.

Joh 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

There will be some that stand before him and hear this:

Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


I agree, but that will not take place at the judgment seat of Christ (where only believers will be present, and only "work" will be judged and rewarded [or burned up if it was not of eternal value]).

shepherdsword
Nov 10th 2013, 07:15 AM
I agree, but that will not take place at the judgment seat of Christ (where only believers will be present, and only "work" will be judged and rewarded [or burned up if it was not of eternal value]).

From what seat is Jesus telling those that work iniquity to depart from him?

Why did Paul associate terror with this judgment seat?

2Co 5:11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord...

TheDivineWatermark
Nov 10th 2013, 07:28 AM
From what seat is Jesus telling those that work iniquity to depart from him?

I believe it will be from "the [earthly] throne of His glory" (Matthew 25:31-33, 41) where it says, "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels" and which takes place "at the last day" (just prior to the earthly Millennial Kingdom), as I understand it.


Why did Paul associate terror with this judgment seat?

2Co 5:11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord...

"... we persuade men." <--- That is part of our "work"... witnessing to men of the gospel of the finished work of Christ, whereby they must be saved, (2 Corinthians 5:20). Building on the right foundation... and taking heed how we build thereupon.

"Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest... "

shepherdsword
Nov 10th 2013, 07:46 AM
I believe it will be from "the [earthly] throne of His glory" (Matthew 25:31-33, 41) where it says, "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels" and which takes place "at the last day" (just prior to the earthly Millennial Kingdom), as I understand it.

So you are seeing two different judgment seats of Christ? One where only believers are judged and another where others are judged based on what they did and did not do? Isn't the typology concerning the criteria for judgement the same in both places...deeds?




"... we persuade men." <--- That is part of our "work"... witnessing to men of the gospel of the finished work of Christ, whereby they must be saved.

We persuade men because of the fear involved in standing before Jesus as judge. Do we agree on that?



Building on the right foundation... and taking heed how we build thereupon.

"Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest... "

Where do you see a judgement seat mentioned in these passages? I see a "day declaring the work" and a "testing by fire"
There will come a day of testing to every man's work through fiery trails and situations. What I don't see is a judgement seat of Christ begin mentioned. It looks like two totally different situations to me. The only possible justification for it being an eternal judgment is the statement "he himself will be saved" but it goes on to say "so as by fire" Isn't the fire of trails how our faith is perfected? Where is the justification for assigning another definition for fire in this instance?

Walls
Nov 10th 2013, 09:51 AM
There are three judgements in which our Lord Jesus is presiding Judge. The Judgment of the "house of God" - the Church, the judgment of the living nations at Christ's return, and the judgment of the dead after the first 1'000 years of Christ's reign on earth.

1st Peter 4:17 says; "For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?"

This is the judgement of Christians in Romans 14:10 and 2nd Corinthians 5:10. The judgment SEAT is called a BEMA in the Greek. It was the traveling throne that Caesar, or one of his emissaries took with when he visited his vast empire and judged matters on the spot. In the case of the Church it is a BEMA because Christ judges us between heaven and earth, in the air, after our rapture. He is "traveling" between heaven and earth. The judgment is based on our works AFTER REBIRTH - whether we were obedient or not. Thus, in Matthew 7 we see Christians who did mighty and supernatural works, but were doing these works without orders. Thus, the Christians, endued with the power to do these works, did them without orders and were judged "workers of iniquity!" (Matt.7:23). The reward for these works is to be co-kings with Christ and to enter the wedding Feast of the Lamb for 1'000 years. The punishment for disobedience is to be excluded from both these PLUS be "hurt of the Second Death", that is, have an intense sense of "lack of well-being" for 1'000 years.

John 5:22 says; "For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:"
And 2nd Timothy 4:1 says; "I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;"

From this we see two things. Christ is judge of the living (at His coming) and the dead (sometime later but within the bounds of His kingdom). The throne in this case is not "Bema" but THRONOS in the Greek, and it is set up on earth after His Second Coming. "THRONOS" is the throne of dominion at the seat of power. In Caesar's case this was Rome, and in our Lord's case it will be Jerusalem.

Two peoples are judged at the THRONOS. The nation of Israel, and the nations (Dan.12;1-2. Matt.25:31-46), and because "the rest of the dead" do not live until the first 1'000 years of Christ's Kingdom are over (Rev.20:5), but all Jews are resurrected at Christ's Second Coming, the Judgement of the THRONOS is divided into two sittings. One at Christ's Coming and one at the White THRONOS in Revelation Chapter 20 when the "rest of the dead" of the nations are resurrected.

At the Judgment of the THRONOS men will be judges according to their works by two criteria. They are;
All men have eaten from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, so men know what is good and what is evil
All men have a conscience, and this conscience can either be followed or cauterized (Rom.2:15)

Those who survive the Great Tribulation are alive at Christ's Coming and are judged on whether they helped a Jew or Christian during the Great Tribulation - "the least of the Lord;s brethren" (Matt.25:31-46). Those who did, may enter the 1'000 year reign as subjects and reap its benefits. Those who did not, will be plunged into "perdition", or "destruction" (the same word in the Greek). The Greek word means, "lack of well-being". The Lake of Fire, which is used interchangeably with destruction or perdition, is a state of the body and soul that produces terrible, unquenchable, unending "lack of well-being" (Isa.66:24; Matt.10:28).

Notice one crucial difference between Christians and the nations. The Christian who is punished at the BEMA has his/her punishment ended after 1'000 years. The Jew and the nations who suffer loss have "unending" pain. It is "everlasting contempt" for the Jew and " everlasting fire" for the nations. That is why Revelation 21:4 says concerning "His people" after the 1'000 years, "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away." Because of the efficacy of the work of Christ, no Christian can go to eternal perdition. It is limited to 1'000 years - BUT that in itself should spur the Christian to a holy and obedient life! This is what is meant by 1 Corinthians 3:15; "If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire."



Hope this helps.

mailmandan
Nov 10th 2013, 01:06 PM
2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

When we stand before Jesus on what basis will He judge us?

According to what we have done, but what will works determine for believers at the Judgment and what will works determine for unbelievers at the Judgment?

episkopos
Nov 10th 2013, 01:13 PM
"If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward." 1 Corinthians 3:14

"Work" will be judged (for reward), not our salvation (only believers are present at this judgment).

NO! Do you know what loss means and getting cut-off? Have you heard of the Laodiceans? Do you know what dishonour is?

episkopos
Nov 10th 2013, 01:14 PM
According to what we have done, but what will works determine for believers at the Judgment and what will works determine for unbelievers at the Judgment?

You are missing the point here...


You like to compare to unbelievers since this makes you feel justified. But that's not going to help at judgment.

TheDivineWatermark
Nov 10th 2013, 01:19 PM
NO! Do you know what loss means and getting cut-off? Have you heard of the Laodiceans? Do you know what dishonour is?

"If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire." 1 Corinthians 3:15

I mentioned the lukewarm Laodiceans in another thread. "Lukewarm" means they were not at all connected to the Source (they were not saved). "Hot" or "cold" are both positives from God's perspective.


Good post by Walls, I agree with very much of it. I was also going to mention the "great white throne" (which occurs after the 1000 year Millennial Kingdom, and is for the unsaved only).

Gotta run... :D

episkopos
Nov 10th 2013, 01:20 PM
I am constantly amazed by the lack of honesty among those who claim a saved status. But this is par for the course.


The bema judgment is not just about getting more or less sauce on your sundae as the dishonest readers imply. There will be both gains for some and incredible LOSS for others. Being bound hand and foot and getting tossed out of the city is NOT just a loss of rewards...it is the loss of all honour and dignity.

In a great house there are both vessels of honour AND dishonour.

mailmandan
Nov 10th 2013, 01:32 PM
You are missing the point here...You like to compare to unbelievers since this makes you feel justified. But that's not going to help at judgment.

It was a simple question. Please answer it. What will works determine for believers at the Judgment and what will works determine for unbelievers at the Judgment?


There will be both gains for some and incredible LOSS for others. Being bound hand and foot and getting tossed out of the city is NOT just a loss of rewards...it is the loss of all honour and dignity.

Will believers or unbelievers get bound hand and foot and tossed out of the city?

In Matthew 22:13, we read - Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. What is this place a description of?

episkopos
Nov 10th 2013, 01:39 PM
"If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire." 1 Corinthians 3:15

I mentioned the lukewarm Laodiceans in another thread. "Lukewarm" means they were not at all connected to the Source (they were not saved). "Hot" or "cold" are both positives from God's perspective.


Good post by Walls, I agree with very much of it. I was also going to mention the "great white throne" (which occurs after the 1000 year Millennial Kingdom, and is for the unsaved only).

Gotta run... :D

Not at all. Cold is not a positive from God. Jesus said that prostitutes would enter in the kingdom before the hypocrites. Does that make the prostitutes favourable to God? Jesus said the Sodom would fare better than Capernaum....etc

episkopos
Nov 10th 2013, 01:43 PM
It was a simple question. Please answer it. What will works determine for believers at the Judgment and what will works determine for unbelievers at the Judgment?

Your indoctrination will not accept this...But there are unbelievers who will fare better at judgment than many Christians.

Why?

Because of hypocrisy. Prostitutes are more honest than many Christians who read the word dishonestly and attribute many great things to themselves.

Can you be honest for a moment? Who did Jesus say would fare worse at judgment? Unbelievers or false believers?

Jesus promised this....


Will believers or unbelievers get bound hand and foot and tossed out of the city?


Believers of course. Unbelievers are not given any talent to invest.




In Matthew 22:13, we read - Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. What is this place a description of?

A place for the hypocrites and the claimers who obfuscated the truth. Those who led themselves and others astray.

Fear the Lord.

mailmandan
Nov 10th 2013, 02:30 PM
Your indoctrination will not accept this...But there are unbelievers who will fare better at judgment than many Christians.

What indoctrination? Unbelievers (he who does not believe is condemned already) will fare better than many Christians (he who believes in Him is not condemned) at the judgment? What is your definition of an unbeliever and what is your definition of a Christian?


Because of hypocrisy. Prostitutes are more honest than many Christians who read the word dishonestly and attribute many great things to themselves.

Matthew 21:32 - For John came to you in the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him. Prostitutes who repented and believed him are now Christians like all other believers. Unbelievers are not Christians. Attribute many great things to themselves? Like sinless perfection?


Can you be honest for a moment? Who did Jesus say would fare worse at judgment? Unbelievers or false believers?

Matthew 23:14 - Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you devour widows' houses, and for a pretense make long prayers. Therefore you will receive greater condemnation. Were they false believers?


Believers of course. Unbelievers are not given any talent to invest.

Genuine believers invest in Christ and don't bury their money in the ground.


A place for the hypocrites and the claimers who obfuscated the truth. Those who led themselves and others astray. Fear the Lord.

You see no irony here?

ChangedByHim
Nov 10th 2013, 02:32 PM
For all the things we say to each other on this forum.

ChangedByHim
Nov 10th 2013, 02:35 PM
Your indoctrination will not accept this...But there are unbelievers who will fare better at judgment than many Christians.

Why?

Because of hypocrisy. Prostitutes are more honest than many Christians who read the word dishonestly and attribute many great things to themselves.

Can you be honest for a moment? Who did Jesus say would fare worse at judgment? Unbelievers or false believers?

Jesus promised this....




So am I to understand that your attribute the term "Christians" to false believers??? You are using them interchangeably.

episkopos
Nov 10th 2013, 02:37 PM
What indoctrination? Unbelievers (he who does not believe is condemned already) will fare better than many Christians (he who believes in Him is not condemned) at the judgment? What is your definition of an unbeliever and what is your definition of a Christian?

What indoctrination? Have you compared what you believe to the words of Jesus lately?

I know your definition of an unbeliever...someone who will fare far worse than me! ;)


Matthew 21:32 - For John came to you in the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him. Prostitutes who repented and believed him are now Christians like all other believers. Unbelievers are not Christians. Attribute many great things to themselves? Like sinless perfection?

God is holy...the attribute goes to Him alone.


Matthew 23:14 - Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you devour widows' houses, and for a pretense make long prayers. Therefore you will receive greater condemnation. Were they false believers?

They were the religious leaders of the day. They were the religious teachers of the day. The Pharisees were indeed believers.

Do you really understand what this life is about?


Genuine believers invest in Christ and don't bury their money in the ground.

Well that will be determined at the Bema seat judgment.


You see no irony here?

The fear of the Lord is the BEGINNING of wisdom. What scheme has led so many to become unfearful of God and His judgments?

episkopos
Nov 10th 2013, 02:41 PM
So am I to understand that your attribute the term "Christians" to false believers??? You are using them interchangeably.

Actually anyone today can use the moniker "Christian". Calling oneself a Christian does not override a reality check.

The gospel attracts many types of people...like a net catches fish. And the angels will sort them. Then there are the wheat and the tares. But do the tares not call themselves wheat also? Or does every deceived person know he is deceived?

Boo
Nov 10th 2013, 02:42 PM
Many do not want to consider their place in the LORD daily and seek to please Him because of their love for Him.

I guess we'd rather just think "Whew, I made it!"

Personally, I am still stuck on working our my salvation with fear and trembling; watching that I do not sin throughout the day and hoping to see an opportunity to please He who gave me a second birth.

I never tell anyone that his or her seat in Heaven is guaranteed, because I see nowhere in the Bible that says it is. I see only that God will not abandon us. Maybe it is because I believe that we still have free will.

episkopos
Nov 10th 2013, 02:44 PM
Many do not want to consider their place in the LORD daily and seek to please Him because of their love for Him.

I guess we'd rather just think "Whew, I made it!"

Personally, I am still stuck on working our my salvation with fear and trembling; watching that I do not sin throughout the day and hoping to see an opportunity to please He who gave me a second birth.

I never tell anyone that his or her seat in Heaven is guaranteed, because I see nowhere in the Bible that says it is. I see only that God will not abandon us. Maybe it is because I believe that we still have free will.

Amen! It is wise to fear the Lord.

mailmandan
Nov 10th 2013, 02:58 PM
They were the religious leaders of the day. They were the religious teachers of the day. The Pharisees were indeed believers.

The Pharisees in Matthew 23:14 may have believed that there is "one God," just as the demons "believe" (James 2:19) but they did not believe/entrust their spiritual well being to Christ; have faith/reliance upon Christ for salvation. He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already.. Greater condemnation is NOT for believers, but for unbelievers. These Pharisees were NOT believers.

ChangedByHim
Nov 10th 2013, 03:06 PM
Actually anyone today can use the moniker "Christian". Calling oneself a Christian does not override a reality check.

The gospel attracts many types of people...like a net catches fish. And the angels will sort them. Then there are the wheat and the tares. But do the tares not call themselves wheat also? Or does every deceived person know he is deceived?
Anyone can call himself a saint, a believer, a Christian, etc. I'm not talking about pretenders.

episkopos
Nov 10th 2013, 03:17 PM
The Pharisees in Matthew 23:14 may have believed that there is "one God," just as the demons "believe" (James 2:19) but they did not believe/entrust their spiritual well being to Christ; have faith/reliance upon Christ for salvation. He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already.. Greater condemnation is NOT for believers, but for unbelievers. These Pharisees were NOT believers.


Paul was a Pharisee....and continued to claim that all his life. A Pharisee was indeed a believer. Jesus even said to do as they say...just not as they do. Now can ANY Christians have the same said of them?




To whom much is given more is required.

episkopos
Nov 10th 2013, 03:18 PM
Anyone can call himself a saint, a believer, a Christian, etc. I'm not talking about pretenders.

But most pretenders will only be unmasked at the Bema seat judgment. Those pretenders are still filling the churches as both leaders and pew warmers...

Curtis
Nov 10th 2013, 03:29 PM
Paul was a Pharisee....and continued to claim that all his life. A Pharisee was indeed a believer. Jesus even said to do as they say...just not as they do. Now can ANY Christians have the same said of them?


To whom much is given more is required.

If the Pharisee's were believers Jesus sure got it wrong when he said.....

Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

divaD
Nov 10th 2013, 03:38 PM
From what seat is Jesus telling those that work iniquity to depart from him?

Why did Paul associate terror with this judgment seat?

2Co 5:11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord...


I tend to think it's meaning the sheep and goats judgment in Matthew 25, with the goats being the ones He says He never knew them. IOW, the goats are the unprofitable servant mentioned prior in that same chapter. But I don't feel this is the same as the GWT judgment in Revelation 20, though I realize many conclude they are one and the same.

Curtis
Nov 10th 2013, 04:07 PM
2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

When we stand before Jesus on what basis will He judge us?

2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad. (NIV)

We are being judged now for what we are doing while living in the body.
When you received Jesus this is what happened when you where translated into his Kingdom.....

Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

1Pe 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

The words "I come" are NEVER translated in the future tense. Just in case we did get what Jesus was saying he added the word "quickly" which means "without delay"
Men put delay in Jesus judgement but Jesus sure did not.
How are your rewards coming along these days? Getting any cool stuff lately?

cuban
Nov 10th 2013, 05:36 PM
2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.


When we stand before Jesus on what basis will He judge us?


Grace to you shepherdsword!

Our judgement will be the near climax of the grand mystery of Christ and His Body. Our works are to be judged, rewarded, and we will be merged together with Christ as One, symbolic of marriage. FOREVER! :inlove:
Judged on what basis? According to the gifts we have been given for the purpose of building upon the foundation.
On the basis of the quality and purity of the seeds we have planted, the water we have poured, and the tending of what God increases.
According to the degree in which we allowed Christ in us, to operate through us.

1 Cor. 3:6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God made to grow.
1 Cor. 3:7 So as neither he planting is anything, nor he watering, but God making to grow.
1 Cor. 3:8 So he planting and he watering are one, and each one will receive his own reward according to his own labor.

1 Cor. 3:9 For of God we are fellow-workers, a field of God, and you are a building of God.
1 Cor. 3:10 According to God's grace given to me, as a wise master builder, I laid a foundation, but another builds on it. But let each one be careful how he builds.

1 Cor. 3:11 For no one is able to lay any other foundation beside the One having been laid, who is Jesus Christ.
1 Cor. 3:12 And if anyone builds on this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, grass, straw,
1 Cor. 3:13 the work of each will be revealed; for the Day will make it known, because it is revealed in fire; and the fire will prove the work of each, what sort it is.

1 Cor. 3:14 If the work of anyone which he built remains, he will receive a reward.
1 Cor. 3:15 If the work of anyone shall be consumed, he shall suffer loss; but he will be saved, but so as through fire.

God is a consuming fire, and so ALL that is manifested before Him is tried by fire. Only that which is pure and holy will not be consumed. (Heb. 12:28-29)
Our works will be tried by the measure of our love, reverence, awe, and fear of the LORD. God discerns the heart, and so the motives of every seed planted and the placement of each brick will be exposed to His Light.
There will be rewards of everlasting joy, and losses of temporary pain.


Revelation 22:11 The one acting unjustly, let him still act unjustly; and the filthy, let him still be filthy; and the righteous, let him still do righteousness; and the holy, let him still be holy.
Revelation 22:12 And, behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to each as his work is.

Love to you.

episkopos
Nov 10th 2013, 07:10 PM
2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad. (NIV)

We are being judged now for what we are doing while living in the body.
When you received Jesus this is what happened when you where translated into his Kingdom.....

Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

1Pe 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

The words "I come" are NEVER translated in the future tense. Just in case we did get what Jesus was saying he added the word "quickly" which means "without delay"
Men put delay in Jesus judgement but Jesus sure did not.
How are your rewards coming along these days? Getting any cool stuff lately?


We are seeing a lot of this tense confusion on the forum. Claiming that we are already glorified or that new Covenant has always been in effect...etc... and all this from imposing a meaning on the bible that was not intended by the Author.

cuban
Nov 10th 2013, 10:25 PM
For some reason, I omitted the following while editing my post.

Matthew 20:15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?
Matthew 20:16 So the last shall be first, and the first last; for many are called, but few chosen.

I also simply wanted to make the important distinction, that the Housemaster recompenses as He sees fit.

God bless you shepherdsword.

Curtis
Nov 10th 2013, 10:36 PM
We are seeing a lot of this tense confusion on the forum. Claiming that we are already glorified or that new Covenant has always been in effect...etc... and all this from imposing a meaning on the bible that was not intended by the Author.

I don't see any confusion anywhere. To what are you referring? Are you talking about "we" or "you"?

1Co 11:31 But if we examined ourselves, we would not be judged.
1Co 11:32 But when we are judged by the Lord, we are disciplined so that we may not be condemned with the world.

Rom 8:30 And those he predestined, he also called; and those he called, he also justified; and those he justified, he also glorified.

Neanias
Nov 11th 2013, 03:20 AM
When the Bible speaks of final judgment, it says we are judged according to our works. When it speaks of entering the grace and life of God today, it testifies that this is not according to our works. The principle is simple: today is the day of salvation, and today remains time to repent. So God is willing to offer us life and power to become like him and forget what we did in the past, so that we be different. When the judgment comes, it is too late, there is no more time for repentance. Now those who never turned are judged for what they did, and those who turned to him are also judged for what they did with the grace given them. To whom more is given, more is expected. Who then should walk by a higher standard?

Those who do not believe in being received into the power of a new life today had to do something with the verses of being received freely, so they conveniently placed them at the time of the last judgment, to claim that they will be in the last day received into the kingdom not according to what they have done, but according to one belief they subscribed to.

Men do this because they love their current life, and are not willing to give it up to enter the power of new life available now, and because they hate the judgment of sin that God proclaims. They have just found a way of making this love of their current life and hate of the judgments of God... godly... to their own eyes.

Neanias
Nov 11th 2013, 03:26 AM
Those who love the truth either walk in it, or if not yet able to do so, believe it and admit to their falling short, humbly looking to God for grace and mercy. Christ came to destroy sin, not just it's consequences.

Redemption does not mean 'once we sinned, and were going to be punished for it, now we sin, but will no longer be punished. It means 'once we sinned, and were going to be punished for it, but God in his mercy redeemed us and made a better way, now we serve him by the power of the life he has given us.'

We are called to be no longer servants of our lusts, but servants of God, for the rest of our time in the flesh. (1 Peter 4)

Eyelog
Nov 11th 2013, 10:44 AM
Those who do not believe in being received into the power of a new life today had to do something with the verses of being received freely, so they conveniently placed them at the time of the last judgment, to claim that they will be in the last day received into the kingdom not according to what they have done, but according to one belief they subscribed to.

Men do this because they love their current life, and are not willing to give it up to enter the power of new life available now, and because they hate the judgment of sin that God proclaims. They have just found a way of making this love of their current life and hate of the judgments of God... godly... to their own eyes.

Great passion in your posts, brother. I appreciate what you are saying.

I am wondering to what extent the love of their current life is deceiving those who do not "enter the power of new life available now." Rather than a willful, conscious decision to embrace the world, could it be out of enslavement and deception, a veil, that some folk are in that position?

If so, we not only proclaim the truth, but we pray specifically for that person. Indeed, the solution is the same whether they be willfully self-deceived, or ignorantly deceived.

Blessings to you brother.

shepherdsword
Nov 11th 2013, 11:13 AM
There have been some good posts on this thread. I don't know about about one else but this event causes me to tremble. I don't think I am hiding any secret sin or practice but the Lord is the judge. I remember I had gotten into a fight one day(years and years ago) and it was quite an affair. The police where called and we both ended up in the hospital(and then to jail). I remember sitting in the courtroom shaking with fear about standing before the judge. I wasn't used to being in that position and while I was assured by others that my charge wasn't serious I was still shaking with fear. This man had the power to release or free me. I ended up with a slap on the wrist so it worked out ok. However,it strengthened my resolve to never be put in that position again. I often think back on that time. There were all kinds of petty laws I had broken in the past but the judge was only aware of the charge for which I was standing before him. In thinking back on this I understood that I will one day stand before a judge who knows all and will deal with every idle word and presumptuous violation of His will. This prospect fills me with terror and even tears when I consider it. Will my thin veneer of belief cause him to justify me? Can He truly and justly say to me "Well done my good and faithful servant"?

Luk 12:5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

mailmandan
Nov 11th 2013, 11:41 AM
I don't see any confusion anywhere. Rom 8:30 And those he predestined, he also called; and those he called, he also justified; and those he justified, he also glorified.

Here Paul sees the future event of glorification as such certainty in God's settled purpose that he can speak of it as if it were already accomplished, even though those He justified are not yet glorified.

mailmandan
Nov 11th 2013, 12:20 PM
Paul was a Pharisee....and continued to claim that all his life.

Philippians 3:5-8 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Did Paul remain a Pharisee after his conversion just as he was before his conversion?


A Pharisee was indeed a believer. Jesus even said to do as they say...just not as they do. Now can ANY Christians have the same said of them?

What exactly did the Pharisees believe that made them believers? Do you still believe that these Pharisees in Matthew 23:14 who will receive greater condemnation were believers? If yes, how does that fit John 3:18? Did they believe IN HIM and were not condemned? Just because the Pharisees quoted the Bible does not mean they were believers in Jesus Christ. They tell you to do things, but they don't do those things themselves. Matthew 23:1-5 - Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples, saying: "The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do. For they bind heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. But all their works they do to be seen by men.

Curtis
Nov 11th 2013, 12:42 PM
Here Paul sees the future event of glorification as such certainty in God's settled purpose that he can speak of it as if it were already accomplished, even though we are not glorified yet.

This is for sure one the mysteries of the Kingdom of God in which we are now partakers of, in which God has enabled us to participate in. Walking in the Light and being able to have fellowship with the saints is a reality today, if we truly know, understand and believe it. We are sitting in Heavenly places in Christ now and we have already been presented before our Heavenly Father in his sight, which gives us great joy as long as we continue in the faith and be not moved away from the hope of the Gospel. As a born again Christian we are truly living in two different worlds at the same time, and we are conscience of them both if as we keep our hearts set on the things above. It is not an easy thing to convince people of this truth unless they are willing to do the works of just believing the truth, with out considering their own bodies senses and look only at the things that are not unseen. Paul, John, and Peter understood this in their lives and wrote about them. The Apostle John wrote in 1 John......

1Jn 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched--this we proclaim concerning the Word of life.
1Jn 1:2 The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us.
1Jn 1:3 We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ.
1Jn 1:4 We write this to make our joy complete.

1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another,

What we have through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ staggers the human mind and that is what it was designed to do, so that no flesh will stand in his presence.

Eph 3:16 I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being,
Eph 3:17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love,
Eph 3:18 may have power, together with all the Lord's holy people, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ,
Eph 3:19 and to know this love that surpasses knowledge--that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God.
Eph 3:20 Now to him who is able to do immeasurably more than all we ask or imagine, according to his power that is at work within us,
Eph 3:21 to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever and ever! Amen.

episkopos
Nov 11th 2013, 01:59 PM
Philippians 3:5-8 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Did Paul remain a Pharisee after his conversion just as he was before his conversion?



What exactly did the Pharisees believe that made them believers? Do you still believe that these Pharisees in Matthew 23:14 who will receive greater condemnation were believers? If yes, how does that fit John 3:18? Did they believe IN HIM and were not condemned? Just because the Pharisees quoted the Bible does not mean they were believers in Jesus Christ. They tell you to do things, but they don't do those things themselves. Matthew 23:1-5 - Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples, saying: "The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do. For they bind heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. But all their works they do to be seen by men.

To understand the bible one needs the Author to explain it to him. We need the Holy Spirit to understand spiritual things. Otherwise the unlearned and unstable will foolishly try to apply the biblical sayings to themselves and to others. Usually this entails justifying oneself and condemning others. A person who tries interpreting the bible WITHOUT the Spirit and the requisite fear of the Lord is simply storing up more wrath for himself. Hence we warn men about the terror of the Lord.

Walls
Nov 11th 2013, 02:09 PM
There have been some good posts on this thread. I don't know about about one else but this event causes me to tremble. I don't think I am hiding any secret sin or practice but the Lord is the judge. I remember I had gotten into a fight one day(years and years ago) and it was quite an affair. The police where called and we both ended up in the hospital(and then to jail). I remember sitting in the courtroom shaking with fear about standing before the judge. I wasn't used to being in that position and while I was assured by others that my charge wasn't serious I was still shaking with fear. This man had the power to release or free me. I ended up with a slap on the wrist so it worked out ok. However,it strengthened my resolve to never be put in that position again. I often think back on that time. There were all kinds of petty laws I had broken in the past but the judge was only aware of the charge for which I was standing before him. In thinking back on this I understood that I will one day stand before a judge who knows all and will deal with every idle word and presumptuous violation of His will. This prospect fills me with terror and even tears when I consider it. Will my thin veneer of belief cause him to justify me? Can He truly and justly say to me "Well done my good and faithful servant"?

Luk 12:5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

I too stand in awe of this day. So much is at stake. The various issues are;

Will I be found worthy to enter the Kingdom (parables of the talents and the pounds)
Will I be found to be "known" by the Lord (Matt.7.22-23)
Will I be found having been obedient
Will I be found to have oil in my vessel (Matt.25)
Will I be found to have lost my (soul-)life in order to gain it
Will I be found to have taken up my cross daily
Will I be found to have treated my brothers in the Lord fairly (Matt.24:45-51)
Will none of the things mentioned in Galatians 5:19-21 and Ephesians 5:3-5 be found with me
Will I be found exempt of the warning to the 7 Churches of Revelation

The list goes on.... What a holy and given life we must live, and then be crazy lovers of our Lord Jesus on top of that. Well has scripture said in context of the coming Millennial Kingdom; "And they that heard it said, Who then can be saved?" (Luke 18:18-29)

Sobering.

mailmandan
Nov 11th 2013, 05:44 PM
To understand the bible one needs the Author to explain it to him. We need the Holy Spirit to understand spiritual things. Otherwise the unlearned and unstable will foolishly try to apply the biblical sayings to themselves and to others. Usually this entails justifying oneself and condemning others. A person who tries interpreting the bible WITHOUT the Spirit and the requisite fear of the Lord is simply storing up more wrath for himself. Hence we warn men about the terror of the Lord.

I was absolutely amazed at how the Bible came to life and made so much more sense to me when I read it after my conversion when I received the Holy Spirit. Praise God! :pp

I already understand that we need the Holy Spirit to understand spiritual things.

1 Corinthians 2:11-14 - For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Now you may answer my questions:

Did Paul remain a Pharisee after his conversion just as he was before his conversion?

What exactly did the Pharisees "believe" that made them believers?

Do you still believe that these Pharisees in Matthew 23:14 who will receive greater condemnation were believers?

If yes, how does that fit John 3:18? Did they believe IN HIM and were not condemned or were they condemned for NOT believing in Him?

shepherdsword
Nov 17th 2013, 11:23 PM
2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad. (NIV)

We are being judged now for what we are doing while living in the body.
When you received Jesus this is what happened when you where translated into his Kingdom.....

Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

1Pe 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

The words "I come" are NEVER translated in the future tense. Just in case we did get what Jesus was saying he added the word "quickly" which means "without delay"
Men put delay in Jesus judgement but Jesus sure did not.
How are your rewards coming along these days? Getting any cool stuff lately?

I expect to receive my rewards at the future judgement that we will all one day face. If we have hope in this life only we are of all men most miserable.

ewq1938
Nov 21st 2013, 04:35 AM
So you are seeing two different judgment seats of Christ? One where only believers are judged and another where others are judged based on what they did and did not do? Isn't the typology concerning the criteria for judgement the same in both places...deeds?

Not sure if you mean this, but if you wonder if Jesus judged on the last day, he does not. The Father judges on that day.

ewq1938
Nov 21st 2013, 04:40 AM
Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Here God is clearly the Father not Jesus since Jesus is mentioned in verse 24.

Just establishing that Jesus is not the judge on the last day where ALL are judged by God the Father.

shepherdsword
Nov 21st 2013, 11:31 AM
Here God is clearly the Father not Jesus since Jesus is mentioned in verse 24.

Just establishing that Jesus is not the judge on the last day where ALL are judged by God the Father.

if the white throne judgment is by the Father,and I also think that it is,wouldn't you agree that the judgement seat of Christ that we must all stand before is a separate event? However,we disagree that the GWT judgment is for all. Believers have already been judged(in my opinion) and this judgement is for those who did not make the first resurrection. The term "whosover" is in the confines of those who are judged at this event. It is a clear used of a classic "synecdoche".Just my opinion brother. I make no claim to be a teacher. I am just a student until such a time as the Lord calls.


I am really interested in how wpm,Karaite,Diggindeeper and David Taylor would weigh in on this. Our eschatological paradigms are diametrically opposed and I am interested in their view. DT sent me an excellent PM on his view but since it was a private message I will not share it unless he clears it.

divaD
Nov 21st 2013, 04:30 PM
There have been some good posts on this thread. I don't know about about one else but this event causes me to tremble. I don't think I am hiding any secret sin or practice but the Lord is the judge. I remember I had gotten into a fight one day(years and years ago) and it was quite an affair. The police where called and we both ended up in the hospital(and then to jail). I remember sitting in the courtroom shaking with fear about standing before the judge. I wasn't used to being in that position and while I was assured by others that my charge wasn't serious I was still shaking with fear. This man had the power to release or free me. I ended up with a slap on the wrist so it worked out ok. However,it strengthened my resolve to never be put in that position again. I often think back on that time. There were all kinds of petty laws I had broken in the past but the judge was only aware of the charge for which I was standing before him. In thinking back on this I understood that I will one day stand before a judge who knows all and will deal with every idle word and presumptuous violation of His will. This prospect fills me with terror and even tears when I consider it. Will my thin veneer of belief cause him to justify me? Can He truly and justly say to me "Well done my good and faithful servant"?

Luk 12:5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.



I agree with you here, since I tend to pretty much see it the same. What I am wondering then, as fearful as this may be, is this something we're going to remember throughout all eternity, our encounter at this judgment seat? If it is, it seems to contradict the following.

Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.


My point then is, if these things are erased from our memories eventually, then what was the point in being fearful about that day? Which then makes me think that we will remember these things forever then, the way Christ will likely remember for forever how He was crucified and tortured while He walked as a mortal upon the earth.

shepherdsword
Nov 21st 2013, 09:43 PM
I agree with you here, since I tend to pretty much see it the same. What I am wondering then, as fearful as this may be, is this something we're going to remember throughout all eternity, our encounter at this judgment seat? If it is, it seems to contradict the following.

Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.


My point then is, if these things are erased from our memories eventually, then what was the point in being fearful about that day? Which then makes me think that we will remember these things forever then, the way Christ will likely remember for forever how He was crucified and tortured while He walked as a mortal upon the earth.

I think once we get past this destiny determining moment all we be well. We will put the past behind us and go on into an ever increasing revelation of God's power,majesty and glory. :pp

ewq1938
Nov 22nd 2013, 03:59 AM
if the white throne judgment is by the Father,and I also think that it is,wouldn't you agree that the judgement seat of Christ that we must all stand before is a separate event?

Yes, at his second coming.