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Nick
Nov 10th 2013, 08:26 PM
Was Melchizedek the preincarnate, temporary appearance of the Son of God? Why was he without father or mother? What does that suggest? Then it goes on to say he had neither beginning of days nor end of life, implying that he is eternal. It also says his priesthood continues forever. Was this a foreshadowing of Christ or something else?

The Priestly Order of Melchizedek

7:1 "For this Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest of the Most High God, met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings and blessed him, 2 and to him Abraham apportioned a tenth part of everything. He is first, by translation of his name, king of righteousness, and then he is also king of Salem, that is, king of peace.3 He is without father or mother or genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but resembling the Son of God he continues a priest forever.


4 See how great this man was to whom Abraham the patriarch gave a tenth of the spoils! 5 And those descendants of Levi who receive the priestly office have a commandment in the law to take tithes from the people, that is, from their brothers, though these also are descended from Abraham. 6 But this man who does not have his descent from them received tithes from Abraham and blessed him who had the promises.7 It is beyond dispute that the inferior is blessed by the superior. 8 In the one case tithes are received by mortal men, but in the other case, by one of whom it is testified that he lives. 9 One might even say that Levi himself, who receives tithes, paid tithes through Abraham, 10 for he was still in the loins of his ancestor when Melchizedek met him."

Abram Blessed by Melchizedek

After his return from the defeat of Chedorlaomer and the kings who were with him, the king of Sodom went out to meet him at the Valley of Shaveh (that is, the King's Valley). And Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine. (He was priest of God Most High.) And he blessed him and said,
“Blessed be Abram by God Most High,
Possessor of heaven and earth;
and blessed be God Most High,
who has delivered your enemies into your hand!”
And Abram gave him a tenth of everything. (Genesis 14:17-20, ESV)

jayne
Nov 10th 2013, 08:53 PM
I think you will get different answers. This is helpful as it gives all the scripture where he is mentioned.


Question: "Who was Melchizedek (Melchisedek)?"

Answer: Melchizedek, whose name means “king of righteousness,” was a king of Salem (Jerusalem) and priest of the Most High God (Genesis 14:18-20; Psalm 110:4; Hebrews 5:6-11; 6:20-7:28). Melchizedek's sudden appearance and disappearance in the book of Genesis is somewhat mysterious. Melchizedek and Abraham first met after Abraham's defeat of Chedorlaomer and his three allies. Melchizedek presented bread and wine to Abraham and his weary men, demonstrating friendship. He bestowed a blessing on Abraham in the name of El Elyon (“God Most High”) and praised God for giving Abraham a victory in battle (Genesis 14:18-20).

Abraham presented Melchizedek with a tithe (a tenth) of all the items he had gathered. By this act Abraham indicated that he recognized Melchizedek as a fellow-worshiper of the one true God as well as a priest who ranked higher spiritually than himself. Melchizedek's existence shows that there were people other than Abraham and his family who served the one true God.

In Psalm 110, a messianic psalm written by David (Matthew 22:43), Melchizedek is seen as a type of Christ. This theme is repeated in the book of Hebrews, where both Melchizedek and Christ are considered kings of righteousness and peace. By citing Melchizedek and his unique priesthood as a type, the writer shows that Christ's new priesthood is superior to the old levitical order and the priesthood of Aaron (Hebrews 7:1-10).

Some propose that Melchizedek was actually a pre-incarnate appearance of Jesus Christ. While possible, this view is unlikely. Melchizedek was the king of Salem. Would Jesus Christ have come to earth and ruled as an earthly king over a city? Melchizedek is similar to Christ in that they are both priests and kings; therefore, Melchizedek could be called a “type” of Christ, but they are not the same person.

Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/Melchizedek.html#ixzz2kHJ3Q11H

Nick
Nov 10th 2013, 08:58 PM
Thanks jayne. What this shows is Melchizedek was/is greater than Abraham, yet he was a man, not an angel. The answer, while helpful, leads to more questions about his origin and who he was.

jayne
Nov 10th 2013, 09:11 PM
Thanks jayne. What this shows is Melchizedek was/is greater than Abraham, yet he was a man, not an angel. The answer, while helpful, leads to more questions about his origin and who he was.

...and there many not be a definitive answer. I know people have hashed this back and forth for many years.

Nick
Nov 10th 2013, 09:23 PM
...and there many not be a definitive answer. I know people have hashed this back and forth for many years.

I'm just looking for a more general understanding, mainly his priesthood. The text indicates that his priesthood continues to this day and forever.

boangry
Nov 10th 2013, 10:17 PM
I'm just looking for a more general understanding, mainly his priesthood. The text indicates that his priesthood continues to this day and forever.

It seems to me his priesthood was a continual priesthood, except it ran into problems when the officiator no longer functioned correctly. We can see Abraham rebuking Melchizedek even though Abraham was reverent to his role...


"And the king of Sodom said unto Abram, Give me the persons, and take the goods to thyself." why was he after the people?, not the tithe. In fact this priest Melchizedek was wanting the people so much he tried to bribe Abraham with the rest of the spoils.

Anyway Abraham remained faithful and said "I have lift up mine hand unto the LORD, the most high God, the possessor of heaven and earth, That I will not take from a thread even to a shoelatchet, and that I will not take any thing that is thine, lest thou shouldest say, I have made Abram rich" gen 14:23

Another reason God had to create the levitical priesthood unto another could come and refill the position and officiate/mediate in the manner of Melchizedek.

Vakeros
Nov 10th 2013, 10:27 PM
It seems to me his priesthood was a continual priesthood, except it ran into problems when the officiator no longer functioned correctly. We can see Abraham rebuking Melchizedek even though Abraham was reverent to his role...


"And the king of Sodom said unto Abram, Give me the persons, and take the goods to thyself." why was he after the people?, not the tithe. In fact this priest Melchizedek was wanting the people so much he tried to bribe Abraham with the rest of the spoils.

Anyway Abraham remained faithful and said "I have lift up mine hand unto the LORD, the most high God, the possessor of heaven and earth, That I will not take from a thread even to a shoelatchet, and that I will not take any thing that is thine, lest thou shouldest say, I have made Abram rich" gen 14:23

Another reason God had to create the levitical priesthood unto another could come and refill the position and officiate/mediate in the manner of Melchizedek.

I think boangry you just confused the King of Salem - Melchizedek with the King of Sodom - Bera. Not good. Gen 14:20 is Melchizedek, but 21 is Bera.

jayne
Nov 10th 2013, 10:56 PM
It seems to me his priesthood was a continual priesthood, except it ran into problems when the officiator no longer functioned correctly. We can see Abraham rebuking Melchizedek even though Abraham was reverent to his role...


"And the king of Sodom said unto Abram, Give me the persons, and take the goods to thyself." why was he after the people?, not the tithe. In fact this priest Melchizedek was wanting the people so much he tried to bribe Abraham with the rest of the spoils.

OOPS!!!............

boangry
Nov 10th 2013, 11:02 PM
Thanks Vakeros yep I did confuse them.

cindyt
Nov 10th 2013, 11:08 PM
...and there many not be a definitive answer. I know people have hashed this back and forth for many years. I don't think there is. During my study of Genesis a few months ago this very question was posed and I've been reading about Abraham, Aaron, and Melchizedek, and the High Priesthood of Jesus Christ in Hebrews. I wouldn't say he was or he wasn't. I guess it's another of those mysteries that will be revealed after the Second Coming.

Old man
Nov 10th 2013, 11:34 PM
I've read some references that say that he may have been Shem (Noah's son) who according to the calculations of the life spans in Gen was still alive when Abraham lived. Just another possibility but not enough info to say that it is more than just that.

Nick
Nov 11th 2013, 02:12 AM
I thought Shem and Abraham were several generations apart?

carboy
Nov 11th 2013, 02:57 AM
It seems there are good arguments on both sides about him being a Christophany or not but what's more important is understanding in the Arronic priesthood a priest could not be a king and a king not a priest. Jesus however is both a king and a priest in the order of Melchizedek. He first came as a priest and made atonement for the people and then received His crown. As we are to follow by picking up our cross in this life before we are raised to glory and receive our crown.

In short this is my understanding of Melchizedek. I happen to believe it was a Christophany but haven't found a good reason to argue it one way or another.

jayne
Nov 11th 2013, 03:50 AM
I've read some references that say that he may have been Shem (Noah's son) who according to the calculations of the life spans in Gen was still alive when Abraham lived. Just another possibility but not enough info to say that it is more than just that.

I have to admit, I thought that was ludicrous when I read it, but I checked it out and did the math and your are right. Shem was alive when Abraham was alive and in fact, outlived him.

Feel free to check my math anybody.


Genesis 11
These are the family records of Shem.
Shem lived 100 years and fathered Arpachshad two years after the flood. After he fathered Arpachshad, Shem lived 500 years and fathered other sons and daughters.
Arpachshad lived 35 years and fathered Shelah. After he fathered Shelah, Arpachshad lived 403 years and fathered other sons and daughters. Shelah lived 30 years and fathered Eber. After he fathered Eber, Shelah lived 403 years and fathered other sons and daughters. Eber lived 34 years and fathered Peleg. After he fathered Peleg, Eber lived 430 years and fathered other sons and daughters. Peleg lived 30 years and fathered Reu. After he fathered Reu, Peleg lived 209 years and fathered other sons and daughters. Reu lived 32 years and fathered Serug. After he fathered Serug, Reu lived 207 years and fathered other sons and daughters. Serug lived 30 years and fathered Nahor. After he fathered Nahor, Serug lived 200 years and fathered other sons and daughters. Nahor lived 29 years and fathered Terah. After he fathered Terah, Nahor lived 119 years and fathered other sons and daughters. Terah lived 70 years and fathered Abram, Nahor, and Haran.

So, if we call the year of the Flood year “1” – for argument’s sake, then Shem had his son, Arpachshad in year “3” and lived until year “500”.

Arpachshad fathered Shelah in year 38.
Shelah fathered Eber in year 68.
Eber fathered Peleg in year 102.
Peleg fathered Reu in year 132.
Reu fathered Serug in year 164.
Serug father Nahor in year 194.
Nahor fathered Terah in 223.
Terah fathered Abra(ham), Nahor, and Haran beginning in year 293.
Abraham lived 175 years making him die in year 468.



Making Shem outliving his 6th great-grandson, Abraham by 32 or so years?!?!?

I haven't looked into Shem being Melchizedek, but I'll do that later.

LandShark
Nov 11th 2013, 04:15 AM
I don't believe Shem was Mel, but I do want to be a second witness to Shem having been alive when Abraham was.

Shem - born in the year 1558 (from creation not the flood) and died in 2158 Gen 11:10-11
Abraham - born in the year 1948 (how ironic is THAT?) and died in 2123 Gen 11:26 & DSS 4 Q252 Plate 5

Old man
Nov 11th 2013, 06:12 AM
I don't believe Shem was Mel, but I do want to be a second witness to Shem having been alive when Abraham was.

Shem - born in the year 1558 (from creation not the flood) and died in 2158 Gen 11:10-11
Abraham - born in the year 1948 (how ironic is THAT?) and died in 2123 Gen 11:26 & DSS 4 Q252 Plate 5

Well there are a lot of questions raising doubts about this idea but this is from the Gill commentary in e-sword:

"Both the Targums of Jonathan and Jerusalem say, this is Shem the son of Noah, and which is the sense of the Jewish writers in general, and of many Christian ones; ..."

I would assume it's more of folklore or based on tradition rather than having actual proof. Still all that Shem saw concerning God (i.e. living in the world prior to the flood, experiencing the flood, being part of God's re-population plan etc.) He and his brother Japheth both had an insight into God that very few if any still alive had (including Abraham). I can see why he would be a priest to the Most High and his longevity could account for the "image" of being without father and mother. But this is all just and will only be pure speculation.

Old man
Nov 11th 2013, 06:15 AM
I have to admit, I thought that was ludicrous when I read it,

Yea ..... I get that alot. :D

percho
Nov 12th 2013, 04:36 AM
I have to admit, I thought that was ludicrous when I read it, but I checked it out and did the math and your are right. Shem was alive when Abraham was alive and in fact, outlived him.

Feel free to check my math anybody.



So, if we call the year of the Flood year “1” – for argument’s sake, then Shem had his son, Arpachshad in year “3” and lived until year “500”.

Arpachshad fathered Shelah in year 38.
Shelah fathered Eber in year 68.
Eber fathered Peleg in year 102.
Peleg fathered Reu in year 132.
Reu fathered Serug in year 164.
Serug father Nahor in year 194.
Nahor fathered Terah in 223.
Terah fathered Abra(ham), Nahor, and Haran beginning in year 293.
Abraham lived 175 years making him die in year 468.



Making Shem outliving his 6th great-grandson, Abraham by 32 or so years?!?!?

I haven't looked into Shem being Melchizedek, but I'll do that later.

I have thought Noah was alive when Abraham was born.

LandShark
Nov 12th 2013, 05:13 AM
Well there are a lot of questions raising doubts about this idea but this is from the Gill commentary in e-sword:

"Both the Targums of Jonathan and Jerusalem say, this is Shem the son of Noah, and which is the sense of the Jewish writers in general, and of many Christian ones; ..."

I would assume it's more of folklore or based on tradition rather than having actual proof. Still all that Shem saw concerning God (i.e. living in the world prior to the flood, experiencing the flood, being part of God's re-population plan etc.) He and his brother Japheth both had an insight into God that very few if any still alive had (including Abraham). I can see why he would be a priest to the Most High and his longevity could account for the "image" of being without father and mother. But this is all just and will only be pure speculation.

Brother, I am not saying Shem is not Mel, I am saying I don't personally believe he is. I could be wrong, wouldn't be the first time. :) By the way, I have the Targums in English in eSword... incredible resources they are! Blessings.

Old man
Nov 12th 2013, 06:52 AM
Brother, I am not saying Shem is not Mel, I am saying I don't personally believe he is.

Oh I understood what you were saying. Actually this topic (will the real Mel please stand up) is just one of those fun, ambiguous, speculative ones that may be fun to look into but doesn't really change what Christ did on the cross and afterwards did to the power of the grave and death.


By the way, I have the Targums in English in eSword... incredible resources they are! Blessings.
Are they on the e-sword site or one of the third party sites that have extra e-sword modules? I'll have to look into getting them.

shepherdsword
Nov 12th 2013, 10:22 AM
I have to admit, I thought that was ludicrous when I read it, but I checked it out and did the math and your are right. Shem was alive when Abraham was alive and in fact, outlived him.

Feel free to check my math anybody.



Not only Shem but Noah was still alive when God called Abraham..:)

I have always considered Melchizedek's lack of genealogy as simply something that was left out to make an analogy. The levitical priesthood had detailed records of their genealogies. I viewed Melchizedek's lack of one as a contrast to that. In the same idiomatic way we could say that from a Hebrew perspective none of us have "father or mother" because there is no recorded proof. However,this is just my opinion based on my own scriptural paradigm. I am open to discussion on it.I struggle with him being a pre-incarnation of Jesus. If he was Shem then we do have his genealogy.It's right in Genesis. I don't see how he could fit. And about the priesthood Nick? The only thing I am sure concerning that is written in the book of Hebrews and I am sure you have already read that.

Blessings

luigi
Nov 12th 2013, 11:32 AM
As Abraham would become the father of many nations (mostly in regards to the faithful in God), I then wonder if Melchizedeks not having parents is in regards to there not having been someone with Melchizedeks special characteristics prior to him.

eyes2c
Nov 12th 2013, 01:00 PM
Melchizedek could not possibly be Shem as his lineage is traceable having Father and mother.
Melchizedek was without Father or mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days or end of life. Hebrews 7:3
Melchizedek received tithes from Abraham whom it was witnessed [G3140] that "he lives." Hebrews 7:8

[G3140]martureō witnessed
From G3144; to be a witness, that is, testify (literally or figuratively): - charge, give [evidence], bear record, have (obtain, of) good (honest) report, be well reported of, testify, give (have) testimony, (be, bear, give, obtain) witness.

Why does there need to be a witness that "he lives" if "he" is just a man? :hmm:

Abraham gave a tithe to the priest of God "Most High" prior to the law being established under the levitical priesthood. We know that Jesus did not come from the line of Levi but Judah of whom Moses spoke nothing concerning the priesthood.


6 but he whose genealogy is not derived from them received tithes from Abraham and blessed him who had the promises.

What was the promises?

Galatians 3
13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”), 14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,” meaning one person, who is Christ. 17 What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise. 18 For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on the promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise.
21 Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. 22 But Scripture has locked up everything under the control of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.


The order of Melchizedek is an eternal priesthood.

Hebrews 7
23 Also there were many priests, because they were prevented by death from continuing. 24 But He, because He continues forever, has an unchangeable priesthood. 25 Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.

Could anyone else fit the criteria of "priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek?"

I do not think that I have even touched the sides on this one...

Be Blessed :kiss:

LandShark
Nov 13th 2013, 01:17 PM
Oh I understood what you were saying. Actually this topic (will the real Mel please stand up) is just one of those fun, ambiguous, speculative ones that may be fun to look into but doesn't really change what Christ did on the cross and afterwards did to the power of the grave and death.


Are they on the e-sword site or one of the third party sites that have extra e-sword modules? I'll have to look into getting them.

I love the topic, there are some really neat pictures of Mel that align not just to the work of Messiah, but also (I believe) of our work in the Millennial Kingdom.

The modules came from a 3rd party that no longer exists. Send me a PM when you get a chance, I can work something out in getting them, and some other really neat modules, to you if you like.

Blessings.

percho
Nov 13th 2013, 01:49 PM
Melchizedek could not possibly be Shem as his lineage is traceable having Father and mother.
Melchizedek was without Father or mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days or end of life. Hebrews 7:3
Melchizedek received tithes from Abraham whom it was witnessed [G3140] that "he lives." Hebrews 7:8

[G3140]martureō witnessed
From G3144; to be a witness, that is, testify (literally or figuratively): - charge, give [evidence], bear record, have (obtain, of) good (honest) report, be well reported of, testify, give (have) testimony, (be, bear, give, obtain) witness.

Why does there need to be a witness that "he lives" if "he" is just a man? :hmm:

Abraham gave a tithe to the priest of God "Most High" prior to the law being established under the levitical priesthood. We know that Jesus did not come from the line of Levi but Judah of whom Moses spoke nothing concerning the priesthood.



What was the promises?

Galatians 3
13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”), 14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,” meaning one person, who is Christ. 17 What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise. 18 For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on the promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise.
21 Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. 22 But Scripture has locked up everything under the control of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.


The order of Melchizedek is an eternal priesthood.

Hebrews 7
23 Also there were many priests, because they were prevented by death from continuing. 24 But He, because He continues forever, has an unchangeable priesthood. 25 Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.

Could anyone else fit the criteria of "priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek?"

I do not think that I have even touched the sides on this one...

Be Blessed :kiss:

Now consider this.

Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee. As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec. Heb 5:5,6,9,10

What endless life is being spoken of?

Schnepp51
Jun 7th 2015, 12:57 AM
Just for consideration:
Psa 110:4 The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek. KJV
Psa 110:4 YHVH has sworn and will not relent, "You are a priest forever after the manner of Melchizedek by My decree. JPS

The translation of dibrah (H1697) as 'order' gives the impression that there was an order of priesthood of which Melchizedek was a part of but by translating it as the JPS does it speaks of the manner in which Melchizedek was made a priest of the Most High God which was by a decree (order) from HaShem Himself.

This is true of Yeshua (Jesus) too. It is by HaShem's decree that Yeshua is our Kohen Gadol (High Priest) and not by an Aaronic lineage. Because Yeshua was resurrected to eternal life he will live forever and there by remain our Kohen Gadol forever.