PDA

View Full Version : Discussion Did Jesus command everyone to obey whatever a Pharisee tells us to do?



ewq1938
Nov 11th 2013, 01:43 AM
I recently read a post by someone who claims Jesus said that everyone must obey whatever a Pharisee tells them to do, and believe.

Matthew 23:3 was cited as evidence.

Is this true? If you vote, please explain why you voted as you did and cite your evidence, thanks!



Mat 23:1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
Mat 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
Mat 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
Mat 23:4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
Mat 23:5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,
Mat 23:6 And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,
Mat 23:7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.
Mat 23:8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
Mat 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
Mat 23:10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.
Mat 23:11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.
Mat 23:12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.
Mat 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
Mat 23:14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
Mat 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
Mat 23:16 Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!
Mat 23:17 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?
Mat 23:18 And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty.
Mat 23:19 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift?
Mat 23:20 Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon.
Mat 23:21 And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein.
Mat 23:22 And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon.
Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
Mat 23:24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.
Mat 23:25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
Mat 23:26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
Mat 23:27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
Mat 23:28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.
Mat 23:29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
Mat 23:30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
Mat 23:31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
Mat 23:32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
Mat 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
Mat 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
Mat 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
Mat 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
Mat 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
Mat 23:39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Thomas Forward
Nov 11th 2013, 03:09 AM
I think there's an issue with the way you present the choices. First, the pharisees don't command "us" to do anything because He wasn't speaking of "everyone" in the concept of some universal command applicable to all of His followers.

He was pointing out to His followers the disparity between what the pharisees taught and what they did. Basically saying that they did not practice what they preached. The pharisees were given a position of authority as teachers Israel, so the people were expected to follow their teaching. In this case, Jesus wasn't so much attacking their teaching as much as their hypocrisy.

Blessings to you.

ewq1938
Nov 11th 2013, 05:16 AM
Fine, but this is how it was presented to me so I am curious what others say about it.



I think there's an issue with the way you present the choices. First, the pharisees don't command "us" to do anything because He wasn't speaking of "everyone" in the concept of some universal command applicable to all of His followers.

He was pointing out to His followers the disparity between what the pharisees taught and what they did. Basically saying that they did not practice what they preached. The pharisees were given a position of authority as teachers Israel, so the people were expected to follow their teaching. In this case, Jesus wasn't so much attacking their teaching as much as their hypocrisy.

Blessings to you.

Boo
Nov 11th 2013, 10:06 AM
Matthew was written as a history of the walk of Jesus on earth and tells us what He said and did. When He spoke these words, He also lived under the law and was speaking to those under the law.

He was not telling "everyone" (meaning us today) to obey the Pharisees. In that time, the Pharisees were expected to know the law. The people under the law should obey it; therefore, they needed to obey the Pharisee. Just as we are told to obey our authorities, there is a limit to that obedience. When God's instruction conflict with the law of the authorities, the law of the authorities becomes nil.

keck553
Nov 12th 2013, 04:10 AM
Matthew was written as a history of the walk of Jesus on earth and tells us what He said and did. When He spoke these words, He also lived under the law and was speaking to those under the law.

He was not telling "everyone" (meaning us today) to obey the Pharisees. In that time, the Pharisees were expected to know the law. The people under the law should obey it; therefore, they needed to obey the Pharisee. Just as we are told to obey our authorities, there is a limit to that obedience. When God's instruction conflict with the law of the authorities, the law of the authorities becomes nil.

^^^^^^ this ^^^^^^

ewq1938
Nov 12th 2013, 04:27 AM
This is what I believe as well and is what all or at least Christians would believe. It is what Christ was saying as opposed to the ridiculous theory that we should obey and believe the teachings of people Christ described and condemned as being so wicked.
Matthew was written as a history of the walk of Jesus on earth and tells us what He said and did. When He spoke these words, He also lived under the law and was speaking to those under the law. He was not telling "everyone" (meaning us today) to obey the Pharisees. In that time, the Pharisees were expected to know the law. The people under the law should obey it; therefore, they needed to obey the Pharisee. Just as we are told to obey our authorities, there is a limit to that obedience. When God's instruction conflict with the law of the authorities, the law of the authorities becomes nil.

RockSolid
Nov 13th 2013, 09:12 PM
The Law was still in effect when Jesus spoke this. We are no longer under the Old Covenant like those people to whom Jesus was speaking. The Old Covenant leaders and priesthood no longer wield any power.

Thomas Forward
Nov 14th 2013, 06:01 AM
Fine, but this is how it was presented to me so I am curious what others say about it.


Ah, there is the implied inclusion that we should submit to and follow the leadership of the Church, though.


Blessings!

ewq1938
Nov 14th 2013, 06:04 AM
It was a Jewish person who claims the verse says we have to submit to what the Pharisees teach and command. I naturally disagreed.





Ah, there is the implied inclusion that we should submit to and follow the leadership of the Church, though.


Blessings!

Thomas Forward
Nov 14th 2013, 06:11 AM
This is what I believe as well and is what all or at least Christians would believe. It is what Christ was saying as opposed to the ridiculous theory that we should obey and believe the teachings of people Christ described and condemned as being so wicked.


Agreed. The same holds today, as someone else mentioned on obeying authorities, we are to follow even things we often disagree with as long as those things don't cause us to sin. Not just "the world" but in the Church as well. That was part of Christ's point on doing what the pharisees said: they were in positions of authority.

Blessings.

Boo
Nov 14th 2013, 10:30 AM
Agreed. The same holds today, as someone else mentioned on obeying authorities, we are to follow even things we often disagree with as long as those things don't cause us to sin. Not just "the world" but in the Church as well. That was part of Christ's point on doing what the pharisees said: they were in positions of authority.

Blessings.

I can follow what you are saying well enough.

Please understand, though, that "the church" holds different meanings to people.

"The church" is the body of believers and the authority is Christ Jesus.

It is not a man.

If I join a local group of believers, they have a covenant or by laws. My joining them - becoming part of their organized non-profit union - then I have accepted a certain authority. Until I cannot comply, I will. When I cannot comply, I leave.

No man hold the authority over me as God does.

Thomas Forward
Nov 15th 2013, 10:57 PM
I can follow what you are saying well enough.

Please understand, though, that "the church" holds different meanings to people.

"The church" is the body of believers and the authority is Christ Jesus.

It is not a man.

If I join a local group of believers, they have a covenant or by laws. My joining them - becoming part of their organized non-profit union - then I have accepted a certain authority. Until I cannot comply, I will. When I cannot comply, I leave.

No man hold the authority over me as God does.



Amen, Boo!

Blessings!!

ewq1938
Nov 17th 2013, 04:51 AM
Fenris:





Yes, Jesus commands everyone to obey whatever a Pharisee tells us to do.
1 12.50%

Fenris


Welcome to the thread, glad you saw it.

So, no one has agreed with your theory about obeying Pharisees so can you explain why you think the Christian scriptures state we are to obey the Pharisee when multiple Christians have stated that is certainly not what Christ was saying?

ewq1938
Nov 18th 2013, 02:18 AM
Ceegen:

Care to explain why you would vote this way?



Yes, Jesus commands everyone to obey whatever a Pharisee tells us to do.
2 22.22%

Ceegen,
Fenris