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episkopos
Nov 13th 2013, 05:36 PM
1Pe_1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.


What we hear so much these days is a claim to an eternal salvation as if that is a guarantee that cannot be broken no matter what.

But the final salvation unto eternity is like a retirement package for the faithful. Our initial salvation is becoming qualified to run the race of faith...or like getting hired in a big company.

To focus so much on a future salvation is like a new employee always talking about being retired. But this doesn't help the employee to see it through to the end.


Does every employee make it to retirement?


In order to ensure our final retirement we need to work competently for the company. So then walking in the salvation provision today goes a long way to helping us finish well. But if we are only focused on something later for ourselves we should be careful not to get fired for day dreaming too much...We need to focus on the job at hand rather than look too far into the future.

So then many Christians confuse faith with hope. Hope is about what comes after this life. But we are to walk by faith in the day to day struggles and battles.

The just do not walk by hope...but by faith. We enter into the spiritual provision of grace now by faith. We advance in the kingdom by faith. We overcome the world by faith.

What is our present status? Servants of God. We should then see to it that we are profitable in our service.

If we endure to the end...then we will be saved just as an employee who remains for the requisite time with a good service can retire with benefits.

ChangedByHim
Nov 13th 2013, 05:54 PM
So we are saved (initially) by grace through faith, but only reach the final salvation by works?

Aviyah
Nov 13th 2013, 05:55 PM
And he said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.” (Lk. 7:50)

Do you think the woman was actually saved or did she still need salvation after "going in peace?" Also, what's the difference between "initial salvation" and "final salvation?" Can one only be half-saved from hell?

TBM 11
Nov 13th 2013, 05:56 PM
1Pe_1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.


What we hear so much these days is a claim to an eternal salvation as if that is a guarantee that cannot be broken no matter what.

But the final salvation unto eternity is like a retirement package for the faithful. Our initial salvation is becoming qualified to run the race of faith...or like getting hired in a big company.

To focus so much on a future salvation is like a new employee always talking about being retired. But this doesn't help the employee to see it through to the end.


Does every employee make it to retirement?


In order to ensure our final retirement we need to work competently for the company. So then walking in the salvation provision today goes a long way to helping us finish well. But if we are only focused on something later for ourselves we should be careful not to get fired for day dreaming too much...We need to focus on the job at hand rather than look too far into the future.

So then many Christians confuse faith with hope. Hope is about what comes after this life. But we are to walk by faith in the day to day struggles and battles.

The just do not walk by hope...but by faith. We enter into the spiritual provision of grace now by faith. We advance in the kingdom by faith. We overcome the world by faith.

What is our present status? Servants of God. We should then see to it that we are profitable in our service.

If we endure to the end...then we will be saved just as an employee who remains for the requisite time with a good service can retire with benefits.

So according to you, we have no way of knowing if we are saved or not. That may be fine for you, but I will take Gods word for it. If you are saved (born again) Jesus will never tell you, "I never knew you."

Francis Drake
Nov 13th 2013, 06:38 PM
1Pe_1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.


What we hear so much these days is a claim to an eternal salvation as if that is a guarantee that cannot be broken no matter what.

But the final salvation unto eternity is like a retirement package for the faithful. Our initial salvation is becoming qualified to run the race of faith...or like getting hired in a big company.

To focus so much on a future salvation is like a new employee always talking about being retired. But this doesn't help the employee to see it through to the end.


Does every employee make it to retirement?


In order to ensure our final retirement we need to work competently for the company. So then walking in the salvation provision today goes a long way to helping us finish well. But if we are only focused on something later for ourselves we should be careful not to get fired for day dreaming too much...We need to focus on the job at hand rather than look too far into the future.

So then many Christians confuse faith with hope. Hope is about what comes after this life. But we are to walk by faith in the day to day struggles and battles.

The just do not walk by hope...but by faith. We enter into the spiritual provision of grace now by faith. We advance in the kingdom by faith. We overcome the world by faith.

What is our present status? Servants of God. We should then see to it that we are profitable in our service.

If we endure to the end...then we will be saved just as an employee who remains for the requisite time with a good service can retire with benefits.

Finally, after all the tirade of abuse you have leveled against various people on other threads, we can see your works based salvation clearly spelt out. In fact I have repeated it slightly larger just to make sure that everyone knows what your religion says.

In order to ensure our final retirement we need to work competently for the company.

Everything you have said elsewhere, and here, tells me that you, episkopos, are saved by your own efforts, by your own superior ability to do the right thing.

Well, as an incompetent fool, who in 60 odd years has never measured up to the demands of the Pharisees, I clearly fail your demands.

Failed, failed, failed. Woe is me, for I am undone!

Thus I shall continue trusting in Christ's mercy and grace alone for my eternal state.

TBM 11
Nov 13th 2013, 07:44 PM
I have seen proponents and opponents of OSAS doctrine throw quotes from the Bible at each other for a long time. I am not even going there.

The way I see Christianity, Bible this whole system of belief is all about freedom of choice. Chose God or not. How is it that one must loose that freedom once he becomes a Christian? God sets us free, He does not enslave us.

Amen Sedoy. God does set us free and if we understand that, we are enabled through His word to rest in that salvation and have peace in our lives. It makes it easier for us to have fellowship with Him in our lives if we don't feel separated from Him because of our disobedience. I find it much easier to be obedient since I realized that I was secure in my salvation. That's the ONLY reason I try so hard to help others understand. I sure don't do it to exalt myself. I have no need to be exalted before men. Not if I understand the bible tells me that I am the righteousness of God through faith in Him! :bounce:

episkopos
Nov 13th 2013, 08:01 PM
So we are saved (initially) by grace through faith, but only reach the final salvation by works?

By works of faith....done by grace. No servant is rewarded for doing nothing...

episkopos
Nov 13th 2013, 08:04 PM
And he said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.” (Lk. 7:50)

Do you think the woman was actually saved or did she still need salvation after "going in peace?" Also, what's the difference between "initial salvation" and "final salvation?" Can one only be half-saved from hell?

We live in time...where there is a beginning middle and end to things. A play on a stage has different acts with these characteristics.

So we begin by being cleansed from all sin....so that we can put on holiness and walk like Jesus and do the works that are from above, Then at the end we receive our reward.... a reward for what we have done in these bodies. Those who walked in Christ will have done God's will exactly. Then it will be good for these at judgment.

episkopos
Nov 13th 2013, 08:09 PM
Finally, after all the tirade of abuse you have leveled against various people on other threads, we can see your works based salvation clearly spelt out. In fact I have repeated it slightly larger just to make sure that everyone knows what your religion says.

In order to ensure our final retirement we need to work competently for the company.

Everything you have said elsewhere, and here, tells me that you, episkopos, are saved by your own efforts, by your own superior ability to do the right thing.

Well, as an incompetent fool, who in 60 odd years has never measured up to the demands of the Pharisees, I clearly fail your demands.

Failed, failed, failed. Woe is me, for I am undone!

Thus I shall continue trusting in Christ's mercy and grace alone for my eternal state.

We succeed and indeed overcome by abiding in Christ. His strength is made perfect in our weakness. So it is by HIS strength that we overcome. We partake in the righteousness and glory of Christ by walking in the same power as He did on earth.

As He is, so are we in this world.

Christianity is not a salvation scheme for do-nothings. It is a WAY to walk in a manner that pleases a holy God. So if we are alive in the Spirit let us also walk in the Spirit.


We must run lawfully (competently) for the Lord. We must fulfill the righteous requirements of the law. God is not lawless. But many who claim to follow Christ are just following a lawless agenda that brings shame to the gospel.

episkopos
Nov 13th 2013, 08:12 PM
Amen Sedoy. God does set us free and if we understand that, we are enabled through His word to rest in that salvation and have peace in our lives. It makes it easier for us to have fellowship with Him in our lives if we don't feel separated from Him because of our disobedience. I find it much easier to be obedient since I realized that I was secure in my salvation.

This is not about how we feel...it is about the righteousness and holiness of God. What impresses men so much is abomination to God. God did not give up on His law. The universe is held together by His law. In Christ we fulfill the law by putting on Christ.



That's the ONLY reason I try so hard to help others understand. I sure don't do it to exalt myself. I have no need to be exalted before men. Not if I understand the bible tells me that I am the righteousness of God through faith in Him! :bounce:

We only become the righteousness of Christ when we walk at the same level of abiding in the presence of God as Jesus walked in. Nobody has the righteousness of God placed on Him without actually entering in to and living from God's immediate presence.

episkopos
Nov 13th 2013, 08:16 PM
So according to you, we have no way of knowing if we are saved or not. That may be fine for you, but I will take Gods word for it. If you are saved (born again) Jesus will never tell you, "I never knew you."

We know we are walking in His salvation provision when we are in His presence. If we take it farther than that then we are justifying a walk that is in our own strength. We can always have hope...but faith is only proved by our present walk.

TBM 11
Nov 13th 2013, 08:20 PM
We know we are walking in His salvation provision when we are in His presence. If we take it farther than that then we are justifying a walk that is in our own strength. We can always have hope...but faith is only proved by our present walk.

So you are telling people that their faith is only proven by how they walk? You are living in the flesh, and walking in the flesh. There will never EVER be ANYTHING RIGHTEOUS about you that doesn't come from faith in CHRIST!

episkopos
Nov 13th 2013, 08:25 PM
So you are telling people that their faith is only proven by how they walk?

Of course! Other than that there is only fantasies and fables. Do you say...I know I'm obnoxious but positionally I'm just like Jesus!?? :)

The gospel is not a pep rally for the flesh so you can feel good about yourself a do a little better since you feel accepted in your fleshly walk. THAT is a gospel of human works.

God loves us AWAY from our fleshly futility NOT IN IT.



You are living in the flesh, and walking in the flesh. There will never EVER be ANYTHING RIGHTEOUS about you that doesn't come from faith in CHRIST!

You are showing that you are walking ACCORDING to the flesh...where there is nothing fully righteous.


But the bible testifies to a walk IN Christ according to the Spirit...not the flesh. We have this treasure in earthen vessels.

TBM 11
Nov 13th 2013, 08:50 PM
This is not about how we feel...it is about the righteousness and holiness of God. What impresses men so much is abomination to God. God did not give up on His law. The universe is held together by His law. In Christ we fulfill the law by putting on Christ.

Correct, it is about the righteousness and holiness of GOD! Not ours!


We only become the righteousness of Christ when we walk at the same level of abiding in the presence of God as Jesus walked in. Nobody has the righteousness of God placed on Him without actually entering in to and living from God's immediate presence.

Philippians 3:9 and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith;

2 Corinthians 5:21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

Isaiah 53:11 He shall see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied.
By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many,
For He shall bear their iniquities.

Galatians 2:16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

Romans 1:17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.”

1 Corinthians 1:30 And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption,

SHALL I GO ON???

episkopos
Nov 13th 2013, 08:52 PM
Philippians 3:9 and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith;

2 Corinthians 5:21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

Isaiah 53:11 He shall see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied.
By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many,
For He shall bear their iniquities.

Galatians 2:16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

Romans 1:17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.”

1 Corinthians 1:30 And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption,

SHALL I GO ON???

The verses are backing up what I am telling you. But you don't understand the depth of the bible teaching.

Aviyah
Nov 13th 2013, 08:56 PM
We live in time...where there is a beginning middle and end to things. A play on a stage has different acts with these characteristics.

I agree that we live in time, but salvation is not a progression. It is always spoken of as a free gift and something accomplished by Christ at the cross. We live in time in that we are at one point unsaved, then we become saved. The woman in Luke was saved when Jesus said she was saved, not after a long process of growing. This makes it seem as if salvation can be earned.


So we begin by being cleansed from all sin....so that we can put on holiness and walk like Jesus and do the works that are from above, Then at the end we receive our reward.... a reward for what we have done in these bodies. Those who walked in Christ will have done God's will exactly. Then it will be good for these at judgment.

The woman Jesus said was saved did not walk like Jesus or do any of these things prior to becoming saved. She simply had faith and believed - this is what saved her (past tense).

TBM 11
Nov 13th 2013, 09:02 PM
I agree that we live in time, but salvation is not a progression. It is always spoken of as a free gift and something accomplished by Christ at the cross. We live in time in that we are at one point unsaved, then we become saved. The woman in Luke was saved when Jesus said she was saved, not after a long process of growing. This makes it seem as if salvation can be earned.



The woman Jesus said was saved did not walk like Jesus or do any of these things prior to becoming saved. She simply had faith and believed - this is what saved her (past tense).

AMEN!!!

Luke 7:50
Then He said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you. Go in peace.”

episkopos
Nov 13th 2013, 09:34 PM
I agree that we live in time, but salvation is not a progression. It is always spoken of as a free gift and something accomplished by Christ at the cross. We live in time in that we are at one point unsaved, then we become saved. The woman in Luke was saved when Jesus said she was saved, not after a long process of growing. This makes it seem as if salvation can be earned.

Then you have adopted the modern notion of what salvation is about....and not the biblical form. Salvation is always in the moment...never an eternal guarantee. It is a preservation.....a deliverance from immediate danger. So then if I'm about to fall off a cliff and grab hold of a rope suddenly...then I am saved! My salvation was brought about by the presence of the rope. But to think that this one time rope salvation makes me immune from the power of gravity forever is as silly as the notion that modern people have towards being religiously "saved" as a permanent status that is respected in heaven.




The woman Jesus said was saved did not walk like Jesus or do any of these things prior to becoming saved. She simply had faith and believed - this is what saved her (past tense).

She loved mush so she was forgiven much. Jesus justified her for her courage. But this was not a guarantee of an eternal immunity from subsequent sin.

episkopos
Nov 13th 2013, 09:36 PM
AMEN!!!

Luke 7:50
Then He said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you. Go in peace.”



Her faith preserved her...she was forgiven by the demonstration in action of her faith. She showed love and courage...

Aviyah
Nov 13th 2013, 09:39 PM
She loved mush so she was forgiven much. Jesus justified her for her courage. But this was not a guarantee of an eternal immunity from subsequent sin.

Basically I only have to respond to this. If Jesus said quote:

"Your faith has saved you."

How can this mean anything else except that she has salvation? He didn't say "Your faith will save you," or "Your faith can save you;" he said, "has saved" which is past tense. If she was not saved at that point, or if she was still in danger of not being saved, then Jesus lied. If hell is still a possibility, then we haven't truly been saved from it and Christ didn't fully pay the price for it.

Neanias
Nov 13th 2013, 09:46 PM
Your swimming ability has saved you from drowning. Does that mean one can never drown anymore, even if he chooses no longer to use his swimming abilities?

It is a modern evangelical notion that 'has saved' means eternal and forever, not a rule of the English language.

episkopos
Nov 13th 2013, 09:47 PM
Basically I only have to respond to this. If Jesus said quote:

"Your faith has saved you."

How can this mean anything else except that she has salvation? He didn't say "Your faith will save you," or "Your faith can save you;" he said, "has saved" which is past tense. If she was not saved at that point, or if she was still in danger of not being saved, then Jesus lied. If hell is still a possibility, then we haven't truly been saved from it and Christ didn't fully pay the price for it.

Actually you have it backwards. Jesus did not say..your faith will save you (as in a future judgment)....He said...her faith has delivered her in her temporal situation.

Salvation is almost always about the particular predicament a person is in at the present time.

Luk_18:42 And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee.


Was the man saved for all eternity...or was his sight restored? Don't go all religious on me now! ;)

TBM 11
Nov 13th 2013, 09:49 PM
Your swimming ability has saved you from drowning. Does that mean one can never drown anymore, even if he chooses no longer to use his swimming abilities?

It is a modern evangelical notion that 'has saved' means eternal and forever, not a rule of the English language.

If you have been saved, can Jesus say to you one day "I never knew you?"

Neanias
Nov 13th 2013, 10:07 PM
Our current salvation is that we are able, by the sacrifice of Christ, to become partakers of the divine nature. By this divine nature, we are to overcome the world and it's lusts, and be conformed to Christ. This is salvation for us today, and what the power of his life in and on us is for today.

The final salvation is spoken of many times in the New Testament, in somewhat varying terms:

2 Peter 1: 10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: 11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

The final salvation is to be received into the everlasting kingdom at the end of the age, when the time of judgment has come. How do we attain to this? Peter exhorts us to diligently add to our faith. For this, we are to be faithful and fruitful with what has been given us of the Lord. In short, don't bury or waste your talent. If we truly have received in Christ all things pertaining to godliness as the scriptures say, there is no reason to be unfruitful. The only thing that could be in the way is ourselves, our lusts, and the world which takes advantage of these.

So by grace (His power and life in us) which we enter through by faith we walk in salvation today, working out this salvation with fear and trembling to make our calling and election sure that we might attain to our hope, the end of our faith: a permanent entrance into the kingdom at the end of the age.

episkopos
Nov 13th 2013, 10:10 PM
Our current salvation is that we are able, by the sacrifice of Christ, to become partakers of the divine nature. By this divine nature, we are to overcome the world and it's lusts, and be conformed to Christ. This is salvation for us today, and what the power of his life in and on us is for today.

The final salvation is spoken of many times in the New Testament, in somewhat varying terms:

2 Peter 1: 10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: 11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

The final salvation is to be received into the everlasting kingdom at the end of the age, when the time of judgment has come. How do we attain to this? Peter exhorts us to diligently add to our faith. For this, we are to be faithful and fruitful with what has been given us of the Lord. In short, don't bury or waste your talent. If we truly have received in Christ all things pertaining to godliness as the scriptures say, there is no reason to be unfruitful. The only thing that could be in the way is ourselves, our lusts, and the world which takes advantage of these.

So by grace (His power and life in us) which we enter through by faith we walk in salvation today, working out this salvation with fear and trembling to make our calling and election sure that we might attain to our hope, the end of our faith: a permanent entrance into the kingdom at the end of the age.

Not so hard to understand! Or is it?

Neanias
Nov 13th 2013, 10:17 PM
If you have been saved, can Jesus say to you one day "I never knew you?"

Luke 17:12 And as he entered into a certain village, there met him ten men that were lepers, which stood afar off: 13 And they lifted up their voices, and said, Jesus, Master, have mercy on us. 14 And when he saw them, he said unto them, Go shew yourselves unto the priests. And it came to pass, that, as they went, they were cleansed. 15 And one of them, when he saw that he was healed, turned back, and with a loud voice glorified God, 16 And fell down on his face at his feet, giving him thanks: and he was a Samaritan. 17 And Jesus answering said, Were there not ten cleansed? but where are the nine? 18 There are not found that returned to give glory to God, save this stranger. 19 And he said unto him, Arise, go thy way: thy faith hath made thee whole.

Did Jesus ever really know the other 9 lepers? 10 were healed, but nine never came to know and love the Master. So today many go to God for a benefit that they want to add to their own life, but they never know the Master and become known of him. Their hearts and lives remain their own, and they never forsake their own life to receive his. When we become partakers of the divine nature, it is an opportunity, a new beginning, not a guarantee of things to come. If we cling to the Master and pour our lives out to be with Him, we will have truly come to know him.

Otherwise we knew him only as a passerby, of whom we saw something we wanted, took, and left. So He will say to many such men 'I never knew you', and the reality is they never truly knew him either, not for who he really is, only for what advantage they could take of Him, and his love.

Neanias
Nov 13th 2013, 10:25 PM
Paul had been saved many times, first when converted, his life was turned around, and then through all sorts of persecutions and sufferings, saved, preserved. He had been received the life of God in his inner man, renewed in his mind, put on Christ... he had experienced so great a salvation in Christ. And yet he says:

Phil. 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: 10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

He did not rest on his laurels, nor count himself to have attained, but sought further to be found in Christ, to share in his power of life, and the fellowship of his sufferings.

The truth is Paul understood the coming judgement, and that those who received new life, but were unfruitful, would be cut off.

Heb 6:

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. 7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: 8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

The fact that he had been 'saved', that is enlightened, made a partaker of the Holy Ghost, did not make Paul smug. He did not approach the coming judgment with presumption and pride, but with humility. The secret is this: he knew that when the Master returned, he would reward every man according to his work. He understood the purpose of new life in him: that he would be fruitful and pleasing unto God, not so that he would be a 'saved' carnal man.

episkopos
Nov 13th 2013, 10:29 PM
Paul had been saved many times, first when converted, his life was turned around, and then through all sorts of persecutions and sufferings, saved, preserved. He had been received the life of God in his inner man, renewed in his mind, put on Christ... he had experienced so great a salvation in Christ. And yet he says:

Phil. 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: 10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

He did not rest on his laurels, nor count himself to have attained, but sought further to be found in Christ, to share in his power of life, and the fellowship of his sufferings.

The truth is Paul understood the coming judgement, and that those who received new life, but were unfruitful, would be cut off.

Heb 6:

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. 7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: 8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

The fact that he had been 'saved', that is enlightened, made a partaker of the Holy Ghost, did not make Paul smug. He did not approach the coming judgment with presumption and pride, but with humility. The secret is this: he knew that when the Master returned, he would reward every man according to his work. He understood the purpose of new life in him: that he would be fruitful and pleasing unto God, not so that he would be a 'saved' carnal man.

Act 27:31 Paul said to the centurion and to the soldiers, Except these abide in the ship, ye cannot be saved.

Neanias
Nov 13th 2013, 10:30 PM
Not so hard to understand! Or is it?

:)

It is difficult for the man who has been indoctrinated to believe that his smugness and pride before God and in the face of his coming judgement is the very thing that confirms he is saved. This is why this indoctrination is so dangerous: those who believe it think they must hold on to this 'saved status' because that very thing is their salvation. They have been indoctrinated into believing that humility and not claiming anything more than the level of walk you are experiencing is a terrible thing, when this humility preserves our lives.

So they have been convinced that the very poison that will kill them is their salvation. How do you save such a man from the grips of the enemy?

TBM 11
Nov 13th 2013, 10:36 PM
Luke 17:12 And as he entered into a certain village, there met him ten men that were lepers, which stood afar off: 13 And they lifted up their voices, and said, Jesus, Master, have mercy on us. 14 And when he saw them, he said unto them, Go shew yourselves unto the priests. And it came to pass, that, as they went, they were cleansed. 15 And one of them, when he saw that he was healed, turned back, and with a loud voice glorified God, 16 And fell down on his face at his feet, giving him thanks: and he was a Samaritan. 17 And Jesus answering said, Were there not ten cleansed? but where are the nine? 18 There are not found that returned to give glory to God, save this stranger. 19 And he said unto him, Arise, go thy way: thy faith hath made thee whole.

Did Jesus ever really know the other 9 lepers? 10 were healed, but nine never came to know and love the Master. So today many go to God for a benefit that they want to add to their own life, but they never know the Master and become known of him. Their hearts and lives remain their own, and they never forsake their own life to receive his. When we become partakers of the divine nature, it is an opportunity, a new beginning, not a guarantee of things to come. If we cling to the Master and pour our lives out to be with Him, we will have truly come to know him.

Otherwise we knew him only as a passerby, of whom we saw something we wanted, took, and left. So He will say to many such men 'I never knew you', and the reality is they never truly knew him either, not for who he really is, only for what advantage they could take of Him, and his love.

Right, but if they never knew him they weren't saved. It has been said here that one can lose salvation. I am saying that can't be, otherwise Jesus could never say "I NEVER knew you." You are either saved forever, or not saved at all!

episkopos
Nov 13th 2013, 10:40 PM
Right, but if they never knew him they weren't saved. It has been said here that one can lose salvation. I am saying that can't be, otherwise Jesus could never say "I NEVER knew you." You are either saved forever, or not saved at all!

Very faulty reasoning....You can't take what Jesus says to one person or group of people and then apply to whomever you wish. Don't judge lest you be judged.

Neanias
Nov 13th 2013, 10:47 PM
Right, but if they never knew him they weren't saved. It has been said here that one can lose salvation. I am saying that can't be, otherwise Jesus could never say "I NEVER knew you." You are either saved forever, or not saved at all!

Try telling the Israelites that were saved from Egypt by God but fell in the wilderness and were rejected by God that you are either 'saved forever, or not saved at all!' They might have a few questions!

By the way, Paul also says they were an example to us, lest we come to God and be cleansed by the blood, but be like those who forget they were cleansed, and are unfruitful, twice dead. We would be wise to consider this, and humble ourselves before God, instead of using God as a means of puffing ourselves up and becoming smug.

TBM 11
Nov 13th 2013, 10:50 PM
Very faulty reasoning....You can't take what Jesus says to one person or group of people and then apply to whomever you wish. Don't judge lest you be judged.

You are stumped. You know you can not explain this so you twist the words. I SAID IF A PERSON IS SAVED HE WOULD NOT HEAR THESE WORDS!!! I DID NOT JUDGE ANYONE!!!


Try telling the Israelites that were saved from Egypt by God but fell in the wilderness and were rejected by God that you are either 'saved forever, or not saved at all!' They might have a few questions!

By the way, Paul also says they were an example to us, lest we come to God and be cleansed by the blood, but be like those who forget they were cleansed, and are unfruitful, twice dead. We would be wise to consider this, and humble ourselves before God, instead of using God as a means of puffing ourselves up and becoming smug.

Wrong covenant sir! We are under grace. No comparison!

ChangedByHim
Nov 13th 2013, 11:05 PM
Paul had been saved many times

You have a very complicated gospel.

Neanias
Nov 13th 2013, 11:09 PM
Interestingly enough, the New Testament, more specifically Hebrews (which is all about the new covenant) compares this like I did. I provide here reference since, as has been pointed out, you are not very well versed in the Bible! ;) Those who are did not need this to know what I was talking about.

Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. 13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; 15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation. 16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses. 17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? 19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

Those are the very people who came out of Egypt. The kind of believing required here is the kind that would have believed they could take the Land, and have obeyed the Lord, since it points out they had sinned.

Did you know that when Paul says 'my righteous shall live by faith', it actually comes from Habakkuk?

The Israelites had to walk by faith also. Do you not know that when they drank the water in the wilderness, it is Christ that they were partaking of?

1 Cor. 10 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. 5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness. 6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted. 7 Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play. 8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand. 9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents. 10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer. 11 Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. 12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

You claim to be under grace, but it is not the grace spoken of in the NT, only an imaginary grace created by evangelicalism. The grace of the new covenant has power to transform men into his image and conform them unto him.

Neanias
Nov 13th 2013, 11:11 PM
You have a very complicated gospel.

Men a skewed meaning of 'saved', I would say.

10 But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience, 11 Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me.

Being delivered in the body is not being saved? Paul was saved from death many times, and God began saving him from his own ways by throwing him off his high horse. That was not the end of the matter! ;)

ChangedByHim
Nov 13th 2013, 11:24 PM
Why don't we exchange the term "salvation" with the "new birth"? Does a man strive to be born again and hold on to the new birth? Will I have to wait until the judgment before I know if I am born again?

This is "another gospel" as Paul warned against in Galatians 1.

ewq1938
Nov 14th 2013, 06:34 AM
By works of faith....done by grace. No servant is rewarded for doing nothing...


A little aid:

2Co_5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.


Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

We are judged according to our works.

Bad works? Hell.

Good works? Eternity/Heaven.

We are saved by grace, but do not think our works aren't looked closely at! We are judged according to our works!

:)

Aviyah
Nov 14th 2013, 07:11 AM
So are you saying we earn salvation?

WITDNM
Nov 14th 2013, 01:34 PM
So are you saying we earn salvation?

One of the themes of James is,

"But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves." James 1:22

James also says,

"Therefore, to him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin." James 4:17

Works do not save us from sin. Works save us from sinning.

When we fail to do what we know is right, we sin. We need to be saved from that sin. Repentance, confession, and prayer are our part. God forgives (saves) us.

When we do that which is contrary to God's will, we sin. We need to be saved from that sin. Repentance, confession and prayer are our part. God forgives (saves) us.

ChangedByHim
Nov 14th 2013, 01:39 PM
One of the themes of James is,

"But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves." James 1:22

James also says,

"Therefore, to him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin." James 4:17

Works do not save us from sin. Works save us from sinning.

When we fail to do what we know is right, we sin. We need to be saved from that sin. Repentance, confession, and prayer are our part. God forgives (saves) us.

When we do that which is contrary to God's will, we sin. We need to be saved from that sin. Repentance, confession and prayer are our part. God forgives (saves) us.

So every time we sin, repent and are forgiven we are SAVED AGAIN?

episkopos
Nov 14th 2013, 02:24 PM
So every time we sin, repent and are forgiven we are SAVED AGAIN?

Every overcoming is a salvation, preservation, deliverance...that is the meaning of a salvation from God.

When we pray ....Deliver us from evil...deliver means to save.

episkopos
Nov 14th 2013, 02:27 PM
Why don't we exchange the term "salvation" with the "new birth"? Does a man strive to be born again and hold on to the new birth? Will I have to wait until the judgment before I know if I am born again?

This is "another gospel" as Paul warned against in Galatians 1.

The new birth is the initial salvation and qualifies us to run the race of faith in the grace of God. From there we are striving to walk in Christ by forsaking the world and it's pull. We strive to remain in God's presence and live a holy life. But not everyone who is born again remains in the race. Some quit...and some are disqualified.

Paul warned the Gentiles (us) to fear lest we also be cut off as the original runners were...

ChangedByHim
Nov 14th 2013, 02:55 PM
The new birth is the initial salvation and qualifies us to run the race of faith in the grace of God.

I completely reject this.


Every overcoming is a salvation, preservation, deliverance...that is the meaning of a salvation from God.

When we pray ....Deliver us from evil...deliver means to save.

I am aware of CONTEXT.

Slug1
Nov 14th 2013, 03:10 PM
Every overcoming is a salvation, preservation, deliverance...that is the meaning of a salvation from God.

When we pray ....Deliver us from evil...deliver means to save.Seems you are saying that a person must go back to the starting line and start over.

In context with scripture, this is not how it happens... the race begins upon accepting Christ and ends when the person dies. If they are still running when it is over, they finished the race. However, during the race, they don't restart as if back at the start... if a Christian falls, stumbles, backslides, rebels, (or whatever Christianese word you want to use), they can repent and CONTINUE running the race, they don't start over as it seems you are saying.

Also... what about "restoring" a person who has trespassed? Nothing in the Bible teaches that a person goes back to the beginning and is a babe in Christ again, or is born-again again. They are restored in relationship and continue IN the salvation they are running in, to have it become permanent at the finishing of the race.

Galatians 6:1 Brethren, if a man is overtaken in any trespass, you who are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness, considering yourself lest you also be tempted.

TheDivineWatermark
Nov 14th 2013, 03:10 PM
1 Peter 1:5 "Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto [the] salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."

Kind of like how the word is used in Acts 13:47nasb :

"For so the Lord has commanded us, 'I HAVE PLACED YOU AS A LIGHT FOR THE GENTILES, THAT YOU MAY BRING [B]SALVATION TO THE END OF THE EARTH.'"


As I see it, it is not "your [personal] salvation" (possessive) that you, supposedly, finally obtain.

Redeemed by Grace
Nov 14th 2013, 03:19 PM
1Pe_1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.


What we hear so much these days is a claim to an eternal salvation as if that is a guarantee that cannot be broken no matter what.

But the final salvation unto eternity is like a retirement package for the faithful. Our initial salvation is becoming qualified to run the race of faith...or like getting hired in a big company.

To focus so much on a future salvation is like a new employee always talking about being retired. But this doesn't help the employee to see it through to the end.


Does every employee make it to retirement?


In order to ensure our final retirement we need to work competently for the company. So then walking in the salvation provision today goes a long way to helping us finish well. But if we are only focused on something later for ourselves we should be careful not to get fired for day dreaming too much...We need to focus on the job at hand rather than look too far into the future.

So then many Christians confuse faith with hope. Hope is about what comes after this life. But we are to walk by faith in the day to day struggles and battles.

The just do not walk by hope...but by faith. We enter into the spiritual provision of grace now by faith. We advance in the kingdom by faith. We overcome the world by faith.

What is our present status? Servants of God. We should then see to it that we are profitable in our service.

If we endure to the end...then we will be saved just as an employee who remains for the requisite time with a good service can retire with benefits.

In simple context, this is not why Peter was stating at all:

1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 6 In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials, 7 so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ; 8 and though you have not seen Him, you love Him, and though you do not see Him now, but believe in Him, you greatly rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.

10 As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries, 11 seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow. 12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves, but you, in these things which now have been announced to you through those who preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven—things into which angels long to look.

TheDivineWatermark
Nov 14th 2013, 03:27 PM
10 As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries, 11 seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow. 12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves, but you, in these things which now have been announced to you through those who preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven—things into which angels long to look.

Yes....... :thumbsup:

Jake
Nov 14th 2013, 03:29 PM
So are you saying we earn salvation?

Yep, that's what they teach.

Christ, in us, is not enough.

percho
Nov 14th 2013, 05:52 PM
I believe

That because of by grace through the faith, the works of God the Father through his Son born of woman;

God calls one and gives that one the Holy Spirit which is the power of God unto salvation. ---- the called are kept by God not by what they do or do not do.

Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. Ecc 12:13--- the whole of man.

Jesus the Son of God gave his life and God his Father raised Jesus his Son born of woman from the dead, the Father then gave Jesus the promise of the Holy Spirit and then and only then could the Spirit be given through the Son to indwell man.

Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. John 16:7
This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. Acts 2:32,33


For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise. Gal 3:18

Neanias
Nov 14th 2013, 07:44 PM
Yep, that's what they teach.

Christ, in us, is not enough.

Christ in us is enough... to actually overcome.

For all who disagree: is the ground that received the seed (word) and does not bear good fruit spoken well off? Is it considered acceptable to God?

Christ in us is the hope of glory, not the guarantee. We have received through him all things pertaining to godliness, we must now add to our faith and work out our salvation with fear and trembling.

Those who receive a talent are not guaranteed a city. In the same way, receiving the word is not what pleases God, it is obeying (doing) and thus being fruitful.

Neanias
Nov 14th 2013, 07:53 PM
Why don't we exchange the term "salvation" with the "new birth"? Does a man strive to be born again and hold on to the new birth? Will I have to wait until the judgment before I know if I am born again?

This is "another gospel" as Paul warned against in Galatians 1.

Why do I need to not use the word 'salvation' or 'saved'? So people can hold on to their skewed idea of it?

The problem with what you suggest is that the Bible itself used the word this way. The authors of the Bible did not have an imbalanced view of salvation that is spread by modern evangelicalism.

teddyv
Nov 14th 2013, 08:05 PM
For all who disagree: is the ground that received the seed (word) and does not bear good fruit spoken well off? Is it considered acceptable to God?

I'm not sure if this would be considered semantics, but that seed bore no fruit whatsoever, neither good nor bad. Only the seed that fell on good soil produced fruit.

Pbminimum
Nov 14th 2013, 08:08 PM
Christ in us is enough... to actually overcome.

For all who disagree: is the ground that received the seed (word) and does not bear good fruit spoken well off? Is it considered acceptable to God?

Christ in us is the hope of glory, not the guarantee. We have received through him all things pertaining to godliness, we must now add to our faith and work out our salvation with fear and trembling.

Those who receive a talent are not guaranteed a city. In the same way, receiving the word is not what pleases God, it is obeying (doing) and thus being fruitful.

So close to being correct. But not. The parable of the soils in Mathew 13 tell us of those who heard the Gospel (seed) and responded correctly or incorrectly....Only one of the four are saved.
That being said, a saved person produces fruit. The fruit does not produce salvation, however. A saved person does the will of the Father (Mathew 7). All of these things are fruits of the Spirit, produced by the Spirit that lives within the saved. And yes, the Spirit that lives in the believer is a guarantee of salvation.
This is such a simple thing for so many to struggle with it.

ChangedByHim
Nov 14th 2013, 08:25 PM
Why do I need to not use the word 'salvation' or 'saved'? So people can hold on to their skewed idea of it?

The problem with what you suggest is that the Bible itself used the word this way. The authors of the Bible did not have an imbalanced view of salvation that is spread by modern evangelicalism.

Yes, modern evangelism is in the ditch, off the side of the road, but your opposite view of scripture is simply in the ditch on the other side of the road. Your works based salvation is no better than the greasy grace that is preached from modern pulpits. They are both another gospel.

Neanias
Nov 14th 2013, 08:37 PM
Did Paul fall on that side of the ditch when he said things like 'fear lest you also be cut off'?

Men hate the idea they should 'work out their salvation with fear and trembling'. On the other hand, they do not want to believe we are called to so great a salvation where we can be as he is. Anything to justify staying in our current condition and justify ourselves in it!

Neanias
Nov 14th 2013, 08:42 PM
So close to being correct. But not. The parable of the soils in Mathew 13 tell us of those who heard the Gospel (seed) and responded correctly or incorrectly....Only one of the four are saved.
That being said, a saved person produces fruit. The fruit does not produce salvation, however. A saved person does the will of the Father (Mathew 7). All of these things are fruits of the Spirit, produced by the Spirit that lives within the saved. And yes, the Spirit that lives in the believer is a guarantee of salvation.
This is such a simple thing for so many to struggle with it.

Men love to read this and find a way of making themselves out to be the good ground.

The biblical testimony is that we know who's who by their fruit. The evangelical testimony is that we know who's who by whoever has experienced initial salvation. There is a great difference between the two, the first calls to run the race set before us and be fruitful, the second calls to rest on our laurels of one experience with God.

Choose wisely!

ChangedByHim
Nov 14th 2013, 08:48 PM
Did Paul fall on that side of the ditch when he said things like 'fear lest you also be cut off'?

Men hate the idea they should 'work out their salvation with fear and trembling'. On the other hand, they do not want to believe we are called to so great a salvation where we can be as he is. Anything to justify staying in our current condition and justify ourselves in it!

What does backsliding have to do with your system of works? Of course men may backslide and forfeit their salvation. But it is nothing like the "working for a retirement plan" nonsense that you and epi subscribe to.

Pbminimum
Nov 14th 2013, 09:04 PM
Men love to read this and find a way of making themselves out to be the good ground.

The biblical testimony is that we know who's who by their fruit. The evangelical testimony is that we know who's who by whoever has experienced initial salvation. There is a great difference between the two, the first calls to run the race set before us and be fruitful, the second calls to rest on our laurels of one experience with God.

Choose wisely!

I have chosen wisely. I know that I am saved because the Spirit lives within me and produces fruit through me. Not vice-versa. And you are correct.....Those who claim a "God experience" but have no fruit are lost. And they always were. They did not recieve the Spirit because most times there was no repentence in their decision.
There is however a huge difference in the theology of OSAS and the Fall Away doctrine. I've said it a million times. Those who believe in temporary salvation look to those who believe in eternal security as if they are liberal, uber-grace, zeolots who have no grasp of biblical doctrine. It could not be farther from the truth. In the end the temporary salvation folks and the OSAS people agree that those who have no fruit are lost. Pretty simple really, and in the end we actually agree on what really matters.

The big difference is this ....Those who believe in works based salavation, or temporary salvation, have no confidence that the God who gave His only Son, loves us enough to keep us even when we are imperfect (which is always). But through free gift (Eph. 2 vs 8) of grace we have been set free, if we truly surrender to Christ.

Again , this doesn't mean one can walk in the world, or not produce fruit and claim salvation. But just how good is good enough ?

Slug1
Nov 14th 2013, 09:04 PM
So close to being correct. But not. The parable of the soils in Mathew 13 tell us of those who heard the Gospel (seed) and responded correctly or incorrectly....Only one of the four are saved.
P, this reply isn't specific to you, I just want to stay with the "sower" parable concerning what I'm gonna post:

Some thoughts and questions. Group one never accepted Christ. Group 2 began to endure and failed to endure to the end. Group 3 began to be fruitful but became unfruitful. Group 4, endured and are fruitful to the end.

For group # 2 and 3... they endure for awhile and they bear fruit for awhile. Can this be done without first accepting Christ?

So the term "saved", in the Bible, the scriptures all say, "will be saved" and never say, "are saved"... so why do the scritpures say that we "will be" saved and don't say, "are saved"?

Were those in groups #2 and 3, "saved" but since they didn't endure to the end and since they didn't bear fruit to the end they fell away?

For those who will say that they were never saved... then HOW did they begin to endure and HOW did they begin to be fruitful, only to fall away from enduring and/or become UNfruitful?

In eerything I read in the Bible... a person who has not accepted Christ, has NEVER begun to endure and can't bear any fruit. So Group # 2 and 3 HAD to once been "in" Christ. But the parable teaches that they stopped and even teaches the REASONS WHY they stopped enduring and stopped bearing fruit.

To me, the parable of the sower is clear and many other parables support in their context. For example: the parable of the 10 virgins is a great one about enduring to the end and the parable of the talents is the great one about bearing fruit to the end. Some BEGAN to endure (10 virgins given lamps with oil but only 5 endured to the end with oil in the lamps) and some BEGAN to be given a chance to bear more (3 given talents, only 2 mulitiplied) and in both these parables, not ALL who began, ended with salvation. We have 5 who began to endure but didn't endure to the end. We have 3 given fruit to bear more but one was unfruitful.

"Will be" saved... "Are" saved :hmm:

Neanias
Nov 14th 2013, 09:08 PM
What does backsliding have to do with your system of works? Of course men may backslide and forfeit their salvation. But it is nothing like the "working for a retirement plan" nonsense that you and epi subscribe to.

We are called to be faithful to the end, run the race, work out our salvation with fear and trembling... The image of the retirement is just that: we must be faithful to receive the reward. Men read this from the Word and barely notice it, but if anyone else says the above words of Paul, they accuse him of teaching works.

Men have forsaken teaching obedience for fear of being teachers of works. This reveals our modern misunderstanding of Paul when he speaks against works of the old ceremonial law.

Would Jesus be accused of teaching works also for saying 'if you were the sons of Abraham, you would do the works of Abraham'?

Pbminimum
Nov 14th 2013, 09:14 PM
Good point Mr. Slug, and one I've often studied about. Sometimes the appearance of salvation and true salvation can be hard to identify in people, though it isn't our job to be fruit inspectors. One scripture comes to mind....When Paul spoke of those who preached the Gospel ,and even had the appearance of fruit, but yet did it for their own personal gain. Paul even went so far as to say that the Gospel was being preached non the less and most likely their was fruit from their self centered disobedient hearts. From the outside looking in they APPEARED to have fruit I would assume, and Paul even seems to hint at it.

But it is those who persevere to the end who are saved ....I believe that those who never persevere to the end are indeed lost. But were they ever saved ? I don't believe so. They had the appearance of it though.

Neanias
Nov 14th 2013, 09:15 PM
I have chosen wisely. I know that I am saved because the Spirit lives within me and produces fruit through me. Not vice-versa. And you are correct.....Those who claim a "God experience" but have no fruit are lost. And they always were. They did not recieve the Spirit because most times there was no repentence in their decision.
There is however a huge difference in the theology of OSAS and the Fall Away doctrine. I've said it a million times. Those who believe in temporary salvation look to those who believe in eternal security as if they are liberal, uber-grace, zeolots who have no grasp of biblical doctrine. It could not be farther from the truth. In the end the temporary salvation folks and the OSAS people agree that those who have no fruit are lost. Pretty simple really, and in the end we actually agree on what really matters.

The big difference is this ....Those who believe in works based salavation, or temporary salvation, have no confidence that the God who gave His only Son, loves us enough to keep us even when we are imperfect (which is always). But through free gift (Eph. 2 vs 8) of grace we have been set free, if we truly surrender to Christ.

Again , this doesn't mean one can walk in the world, or not produce fruit and claim salvation. But just how good is good enough ?

Therein lies the problem. We do not judge what is good enough, God does, so we do not judge ourselves already eternally save, having attained.

God loves the lost sinner too, yet he does not promise salvation apart from repentance. Are we more loved of God, so that the sinner has to repent, but we do not have to be faithful?

This is exactly the dangerous attitude of modern evangelicalism: we are more special and more loved, and need to do less than others to be saved. But pride leads to a fall.

Neanias
Nov 14th 2013, 09:17 PM
P, this reply isn't specific to you, I just want to stay with the "sower" parable concerning what I'm gonna post:

Some thoughts and questions. Group one never accepted Christ. Group 2 began to endure and failed to endure to the end. Group 3 began to be fruitful but became unfruitful. Group 4, endured and are fruitful to the end.

For group # 2 and 3... they endure for awhile and they bear fruit for awhile. Can this be done without first accepting Christ?

So the term "saved", in the Bible, the scriptures all say, "will be saved" and never say, "are saved"... so why do the scritpures say that we "will be" saved and don't say, "are saved"?

Were those in groups #2 and 3, "saved" but since they didn't endure to the end and since they didn't bear fruit to the end they fell away?

For those who will say that they were never saved... then HOW did they begin to endure and HOW did they begin to be fruitful, only to fall away from enduring and/or become UNfruitful?

In eerything I read in the Bible... a person who has not accepted Christ, has NEVER begun to endure and can't bear any fruit. So Group # 2 and 3 HAD to once been "in" Christ. But the parable teaches that they stopped and even teaches the REASONS WHY they stopped enduring and stopped bearing fruit.

To me, the parable of the sower is clear and many other parables support in their context. For example: the parable of the 10 virgins is a great one about enduring to the end and the parable of the talents is the great one about bearing fruit to the end. Some BEGAN to endure (10 virgins given lamps with oil but only 5 endured to the end with oil in the lamps) and some BEGAN to be given a chance to bear more (3 given talents, only 2 mulitiplied) and in both these parables, not ALL who began, ended with salvation. We have 5 who began to endure but didn't endure to the end. We have 3 given fruit to bear more but one was unfruitful.

"Will be" saved... "Are" saved :hmm:

Amen! :) Spot on...

ChangedByHim
Nov 14th 2013, 09:18 PM
We are called to be faithful to the end, run the race, work out our salvation with fear and trembling... The image of the retirement is just that: we must be faithful to receive the reward. Men read this from the Word and barely notice it, but if anyone else says the above words of Paul, they accuse him of teaching works.

Men have forsaken teaching obedience for fear of being teachers of works. This reveals our modern misunderstanding of Paul when he speaks against works of the old ceremonial law.

Would Jesus be accused of teaching works also for saying 'if you were the sons of Abraham, you would do the works of Abraham'?

The difference between me and you is that I don't have to wait until the judgment to know if I'm saved. The judgment that testifies of my salvation is the one that occurred on the Cross, not the one for my works.

You can preach to us who have been living it for 30-40 years after you've done so.

Slug1
Nov 14th 2013, 09:25 PM
Good point Mr. Slug, and one I've often studied about. Sometimes the appearance of salvation and true salvation can be hard to identify in people, though it isn't our job to be fruit inspectors. One scripture comes to mind....When Paul spoke of those who preached the Gospel ,and even had the appearance of fruit, but yet did it for their own personal gain. Paul even went so far as to say that the Gospel was being preached non the less and most likely their was fruit from their self centered disobedient hearts. From the outside looking in they APPEARED to have fruit I would assume, and Paul even seems to hint at it.

But it is those who persevere to the end who are saved ....I believe that those who never persevere to the end are indeed lost. But were they ever saved ? I don't believe so. They had the appearance of it though.I understand what you are saying and I can also say I agree AND disagree.

This is why I disagree... in the parables by Jesus, He is clear, people are GIVEN the chance to endure and bear fruit. This is clear in that He is not speaking about lost. Because no lost person (as you speak about) can endure at all, not can they be fruitful at all. So Jesus is speaking about those who are NOT lost. Except group 1, they never endure, nor are fruitful in any ways what-so-ever. So, those who began to endure are not "the lost". Those who began to be fruitful are not "the lost". Those two groups are people given the chance and only those who accept Christ have ANY chance while any who are lost and remain lost, NEVER have any chance.

10 virgins given lamps with oil... so 10 have a chance to be saved.

3 people given talents.... so 3 have a chance to be saved.

5 virgins with lamps and oil didn't get saved in the end. 1 person with a talent didn't get saved in the end.

But to say they were ALWAYS lost? That don't align with the lessons given to us by Jesus as He taught through parables.

Pbminimum
Nov 14th 2013, 09:30 PM
Therein lies the problem. We do not judge what is good enough, God does, so we do not judge ourselves already eternally save, having attained.

God loves the lost sinner too, yet he does not promise salvation apart from repentance. Are we more loved of God, so that the sinner has to repent, but we do not have to be faithful?

This is exactly the dangerous attitude of modern evangelicalism: we are more special and more loved, and need to do less than others to be saved. But pride leads to a fall.

Right and wrong again. Your right in the fact that we are not the judge, but the word of God is . 1 John 5 / 13 tells us "These things are written that you may KNOW you have eternal life". Not guess. Not hope. Not wonder. BUT KNOW. A believer who isn't confident in their salvation are seldom fruitfull, never confident, and always worried about working hard enough to earn something they could never earn to start with .

Neanias
Nov 14th 2013, 09:37 PM
The difference between me and you is that I don't have to wait until the judgment to know if I'm saved. The judgment that testifies of my salvation is the one that occurred on the Cross, not the one for my works.

You can preach to us who have been living it for 30-40 years after you've done so.

:)

You can slam what I say based on my age. That's fine.

What about Peter saying to 'make your calling and election sure' by diligently adding to your faith, so that then you can receive a plentiful entrance into the Kingdom?

This is a classic case of using the fact that we are first freely received into his life apart from works to claim we are received into the kingdom at the end of the age apart from works. Yet we have verses for both which say that today we can freely be received into his life, so that we become a peculiar people zealous of good works (Titus), a standard by which we will be judged (with sole mercy, if we are humble) since we have access to every spiritual blessing in Christ so that we can be fruitful and pleasing to God.

Had you happened to disagree with Timothy, would you also have used his young age against him? I don't expect an answer to this, it's food for thought. :)

Neanias
Nov 14th 2013, 09:42 PM
Right and wrong again. Your right in the fact that we are not the judge, but the word of God is . 1 John 5 / 13 tells us "These things are written that you may KNOW you have eternal life". Not guess. Not hope. Not wonder. BUT KNOW. A believer who isn't confident in their salvation are seldom fruitfull, never confident, and always worried about working hard enough to earn something they could never earn to start with .

This only makes sense because you have exchanged the life that the word speaks of, which we enter by faith, for a concept of guaranteed eternal salvation at the end of the age.

Paul says the same thing in different words: 'examine yourselves whether you be in the faith'. Being in the faith today is not a guarantee of remaining there as you suggest. Narrow is the gate AND the way. We must enter AND remain.

Pbminimum
Nov 14th 2013, 09:42 PM
Good stuff Slug. But in vs 22 talks of " hearing the word, and the cares of this world, and the decietfullness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.".....
Does this mean he WAS fruitful. It could be easy to assume that. But could it mean he never became fruitful ?

I haven't researched it really deeply, but the scripture never says he bore fruit. It says be became unfruitful. When your saved you produce fruit.

I'm open to explanation on this one. If you can show me in the original Greek or Hebrew something that says HE ABSOLUTELY BORE FRUIT before being unfruitful I'll listen to ya brother .

Pbminimum
Nov 14th 2013, 09:45 PM
This only makes sense because you have exchanged the life that the word speaks of, which we enter by faith, for a concept of guaranteed eternal salvation at the end of the age.

Paul says the same thing in different words: 'examine yourselves whether you be in the faith'. Being in the faith today is not a guarantee of remaining there as you suggest. Narrow is the gate AND the way. We must enter AND remain.

And what do we examine our lives by ? The word of God. Which also says "THESE THINGS ARE WRITTEN THAT YOU MAY KNOW YOU HAVE ETERNAL LIFE."

Have you ever lost your salvation ? If so, how did you get it back ?

Neanias
Nov 14th 2013, 09:55 PM
Eternal life is a type of life, we are to see whether we are in this life, and yes by comparing ourselves to the biblical witness we can see by our fruit whether we have this life in us.

This is worlds apart from claiming we have a guarantee to be received at the end of the age regardless of our faithfulness. Knowing we are on the right path does not mean know we will arrive to our destination. We just know that if we continue on the path, we will arrive.

Otherwise we put the words of John against Paul who would not even judge himself and said we can be cut off, or Peter who said we need to diligently add to our faith, that we might be received into the kingdom, or James who said that AFTER we have endures the trials we receive the crown of life.

ChangedByHim
Nov 14th 2013, 10:01 PM
:)

You can slam what I say based on my age. That's fine.

What about Peter saying to 'make your calling and election sure' by diligently adding to your faith, so that then you can receive a plentiful entrance into the Kingdom?

This is a classic case of using the fact that we are first freely received into his life apart from works to claim we are received into the kingdom at the end of the age apart from works. Yet we have verses for both which say that today we can freely be received into his life, so that we become a peculiar people zealous of good works (Titus), a standard by which we will be judged (with sole mercy, if we are humble) since we have access to every spiritual blessing in Christ so that we can be fruitful and pleasing to God.

Had you happened to disagree with Timothy, would you also have used his young age against him? I don't expect an answer to this, it's food for thought. :)

Age has nothing to do with it but inexperience does. Your position assumes that if one does not buy your works system that he must therefore have no good works. It's a position of superiority based on your works. The book of Galatians condemns this gospel.

Pbminimum
Nov 14th 2013, 10:02 PM
I know of no one here that is saying we can live however we wish and claim salvation. You have disregarded what many have said about fruit being a byproduct of true salvation, and have instead, gotten it in reverse. At least I've gotten that from the posts you've put up.

Again, have you ever lost your salvation ?

ChangedByHim
Nov 14th 2013, 10:10 PM
I know of no one here that is saying we can live however we wish and claim salvation. You have disregarded what many have said about fruit being a byproduct of true salvation, and have instead, gotten it in reverse. At least I've gotten that from the posts you've put up.

Again, have you ever lost your salvation ?
You nailed it.....

Neanias
Nov 14th 2013, 10:37 PM
Age has nothing to do with it but inexperience does. Your position assumes that if one does not buy your works system that he must therefore have no good works. It's a position of superiority based on your works. The book of Galatians condemns this gospel.

I do not teach superiority by works, nor justifying oneself by works, I teach the necessity of obeying and producing fruit, and then letting God judge.

The danger of teaching an eternal guaranteed is salvation is not just for yourself, but for others also. Even if you believe this in humility, remain faithful and produce fruit, it teaches those who do not have the life in them or are not faithful that they need not remain humble and be fruitful.

To boot, it does not add up with the verses which say he will reward everyone according to his deeds.

So what I teach is that we must humbly obey God through the Spirit and approach the judgment in humility, not considering ourselves justified either by our works or our beliefs.

I am sorry and saddened that you cannot distinguish between this and those who teach to justify ourselves by carnal works.

I teach humble obedience by the Spirit apart from self justification. This is.opposed to both justifying ourselves by our beliefs or by our works, and for the humble obedience of a servant who serves through the Spirit assuming nothing for himself.

Neanias
Nov 14th 2013, 10:44 PM
I know of no one here that is saying we can live however we wish and claim salvation. You have disregarded what many have said about fruit being a byproduct of true salvation, and have instead, gotten it in reverse. At least I've gotten that from the posts you've put up.

Again, have you ever lost your salvation ?

Thinking of salvation as a commodity that is ours is part of the problem.

We have mistaken the one talent we received for an eternal guarantee of salvation. But unless we work out our salvation with fear and trembling, the talent (which is not ours, but the Master's) will be taken away, and our fate will be the same as that of the servant who was tied hand and foot and thrown out.

Aviyah
Nov 14th 2013, 11:02 PM
We have mistaken the one talent we received for an eternal guarantee of salvation.

You've assumed that the talents in that parable was salvation? How does one have 7 salvations?? How does one make more salvations???

Also:


I do not teach superiority by works, nor justifying oneself by works, I teach the necessity of obeying and producing fruit, and then letting God judge.

"And then letting God judge..." what? Our works, right? So how is that different than works-based salvation? How can your interpretation of salvation not be synonymous with 'superiority by works' if the requirement for salvation is doing good works?

Pbminimum
Nov 14th 2013, 11:06 PM
Thinking of salvation as a commodity that is ours is part of the problem.

We have mistaken the one talent we received for an eternal guarantee of salvation. But unless we work out our salvation with fear and trembling, the talent (which is not ours, but the Master's) will be taken away, and our fate will be the same as that of the servant who was tied hand and foot and thrown out.

And no one on here has indicated that salvation is a commodity. It is a free gift , than cannot be earned and isn't deserved (Eph 2 / 8).
And none here have indicated that we are going to approach the Lord of all creation with anything but humility.
Again, we agree on more than we disagree on. But, what is more prideful ? Knowing I'm saved because my life lines up with what God's word says a saved person looks like,and having condfidence that Jesus atoned my sins by giving His very life for mine ? Or, thinking my works will somehow make me more likely to approach the judgement with more favor from God?

Brother, my confidence doesn't come from only the knowledge that I'm saved. It comes from what Jesus did and the gift of eternal life He GAVE me.

ChangedByHim
Nov 14th 2013, 11:13 PM
I am sorry and saddened that you cannot distinguish between this and those who teach to justify ourselves by carnal works.


More condescension.

I'm sorry to have saddened you.

Slug1
Nov 14th 2013, 11:39 PM
Good stuff Slug. But in vs 22 talks of " hearing the word, and the cares of this world, and the decietfullness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.".....
Does this mean he WAS fruitful. It could be easy to assume that. But could it mean he never became fruitful ?

I haven't researched it really deeply, but the scripture never says he bore fruit. It says be became unfruitful. When your saved you produce fruit.

I'm open to explanation on this one. If you can show me in the original Greek or Hebrew something that says HE ABSOLUTELY BORE FRUIT before being unfruitful I'll listen to ya brother .Well, to follow your thought, the scripture would be more about not becoming unfruitful but instead Jesus would have to mean/say, "you remain(ed) unfruitful". However, the person became unfruitful... the person did not remain unfruitful.

So standby... getting the Greek on:

Edit:


http://biblesuite.com/helps5.gif (http://helpsbible.com)1096 gínomai – properly, to emerge, become, transitioning from one point (realm, condition) to another. 1096 (http://biblesuite.com/greek/1096.htm) (gínomai) fundamentally means "become" (becoming, became) so it is not an exact equivalent to the ordinary equative verb "to be" (is, was, will be) as with 1510 (http://biblesuite.com/greek/1510.htm) /eimí (1511 (http://biblesuite.com/greek/1511.htm) /eínai, 2258 (http://biblesuite.com/greek/2258.htm) /ēn).
1096 (ginomai) means "to become, and signifies a change of condition, state or place" (Vine, Unger, White, NT, 109).
M. Vincent, "1096 (http://biblesuite.com/greek/1096.htm) (gínomai) means to come into being/manifestation implying motion, movement, or growth" (at 2 Pet 1:4). Thus it is used for God's actions as emerging from eternity and becoming (showing themselves) in time (physical space).



http://biblesuite.com/helps5a.gif (http://helpsbible.com) copyright © 1987, 2011 by Helps Ministries, Inc.
For complete text and additional resources visit:
HelpsBible.com (http://helpsbible.com)



So the Greek term for "become/became" means about transitioning from one condition to another.

So what does that mean to you? Was the person ALWAYS unfruitful? If so... other than being fruitful, what condition did the person transition from?

Jake
Nov 15th 2013, 01:17 AM
Christ in us is enough... to actually overcome.

For all who disagree: is the ground that received the seed (word) and does not bear good fruit spoken well off? Is it considered acceptable to God?

Christ in us is the hope of glory, not the guarantee. We have received through him all things pertaining to godliness, we must now add to our faith and work out our salvation with fear and trembling.

Those who receive a talent are not guaranteed a city. In the same way, receiving the word is not what pleases God, it is obeying (doing) and thus being fruitful.

Why are you bringing up an OSAS vs NOSAS argument? I'm not a subscriber to OSAS and am very well aware people can forfeit their salvation.

What I don't subscribe to is yours and epi's 'earning salvation' theology. We do not earn our salvation, it's a free gift and nowhere does it say we earn it - otherwise we could all boast about all the works we do, right? However, salvation is a free gift so that no one can boast and say, "look at me! I've earned my salvation" - said not one Christian - ever.

shepherdsword
Nov 15th 2013, 09:18 AM
I have a different question for both sides of the argument.

1) When we approach God in brokenness and humility and He applies the blood to our life are we as Holy as we will ever be or is there something we can do that will add to the finished work of Jesus Christ?

to the other side:

2) If we die in known unrepentant sin can we be assured of entering into God's Kingdom?

I am interested in hearing a response from both sides.

Blessings :)

ewq1938
Nov 15th 2013, 09:26 AM
2) If we die in known unrepentant sin can we be assured of entering into God's Kingdom?




Does God/Christ have the authority to forgive the sins of the dead? Yes? No? He doesn't care?

What is your answer?

shepherdsword
Nov 15th 2013, 09:33 AM
Does God/Christ have the authority to forgive the sins of the dead? Yes? No? He doesn't care?

What is your answer?


I look at it from this perspective:

1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

I guess the term "were" is the key.

Boo
Nov 15th 2013, 10:39 AM
If we never have to fear out subsequent behavior after determining to follow Christ Jesus, then there was no need to inform us that we must endure to the end to be saved. I would suppose that some people felt like following Jesus meant that we are to follow Him all the way.

James seemed to think that following Him meant that we would do the things that Jesus did and what He taught his disciples to do.

Jesus may have had "finished work." Until we leave this planet, our work is never finished.

Today, I am saved. I will ensure and endure so that, on my final day, I am still saved. I can do that because I follow Jesus.

1 Corinthians chapter 3 addresses those who fail to build in their lives as they should.

mailmandan
Nov 15th 2013, 12:32 PM
Good stuff Slug. But in vs 22 talks of " hearing the word, and the cares of this world, and the decietfullness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.".....
Does this mean he WAS fruitful. It could be easy to assume that. But could it mean he never became fruitful ?

I haven't researched it really deeply, but the scripture never says he bore fruit. It says be became unfruitful. When your saved you produce fruit.

I'm open to explanation on this one. If you can show me in the original Greek or Hebrew something that says HE ABSOLUTELY BORE FRUIT before being unfruitful I'll listen to ya brother .

Here is how I understand it. The original words used still do not change the fact that the word was choked out before reaching it's desired goal. (ginomai) making it [unfruitful]" - it/he becomes [unfruitful, barren]. The subject is usually regarded as ton logon, "the word", so the word is choked and therefore does not produce a renewed spiritual life in the person; "the anxieties of the age and the pleasures of wealth chokes the message and it becomes unfruitful", TNT. The worries of life and the delusions of wealth have the effect of stifling the word/gospel, such that the person does not bear the fruit of salvation; "he becomes unfruitful", Rieu.

If the change of condition is going from fruitful to unfruitful, then why no mention of bearing fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixty and some a hundered, then AFTERWARD it became unfruitful? If the original word meaning really means was fruitful but later became unfruitful, then why do so many translations specify otherwise?

Mark 4:7 ASV
American Standard Version

And other fell among the thorns, and the thorns grew up, and choked it, and it yielded no fruit.

Mark 4:7 BBE
Bible in Basic English

And some went among the thorns, and the thorns came up, and it had no room for growth and gave no fruit.

Mark 4:7 CEB
Common English Bible

Other seed fell among thorny plants. The thorny plants grew and choked the seeds, and they produced nothing.

Mark 4:7 CJB
Complete Jewish Bible

Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked it; so that it yielded no grain.

Mark 4:7 RHE
Douay-Rheims

And some fell among thorns; and the thorns grew up, and choked it, and it yielded no fruit.

Mark 4:7 ESV
English Standard Version

Other seed fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up and choked it, and it yielded no grain.

Mark 4:7 GW
GOD'S WORD Translation

Other seeds were planted among thornbushes. The thornbushes grew up and choked them, and they didn't produce anything.

Mark 4:7 GNT
Good News Translation

Some of the seed fell among thorn bushes, which grew up and choked the plants, and they didn't bear grain.

Mark 4:7 HNV
Hebrew Names Version

Others fell among the thorns, and the thorns grew up, and choked it, and it yielded no fruit.

Mark 4:7 CSB
Holman Christian Standard

Other seed fell among thorns, and the thorns came up and choked it, and it didn't produce a crop.

Mark 4:7 KJV
King James Version

And some fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up , and choked it, and it yielded no fruit.

Mark 4:7 NKJV
New King James VersionAnd some seed fell among thorns; and the thorns grew up and choked it, and it yielded no crop.

Mark 4:7 LEB
Lexham English Bible

And other [seed] fell among the thorn plants, and the thorn plants came up and choked it, and it did not produce grain.

Mark 4:7 NAS
New American Standard

"Other seed fell among the thorns, and the thorns came up and choked it, and it yielded no crop.

Mark 4:7 NCV
New Century Version

Some other seed fell among thorny weeds, which grew and choked the good plants. So those plants did not produce a crop.

Mark 4:7 NIV
New International Version

Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants, so that they did not bear grain.

Put a stop to the growth of the word and it gives no fruit (Bible in Basic English) is not the same thing as saying, "gives fruit but then later stops producing fruit." The potential to eventually produce fruit was there, but the word was choked out before reaching it's desired goal. It (the seed, the word) became unfruitful (produces nothing, proves unfruitful, does not produce fruit, yields nothing), because the growth of the word was choked, not because it was previously fruitful. In the Complete Jewish Bible we read, Now the seed sown among thorns stands for someone who hears the message, but it is choked by the worries of the world and the deceitful glamor of wealth, so that it produces nothing. Nothing amounts to nothing and nothing was mentioned about it ever producing something.

A.T. Robertson comments - Who has not seen the promise of fair flower and fruit choked into yellow withered stalk without fruit "as they go on their way" (poreuomenoi). Bring no fruit to perfection (outelesporousin). In contrast, we read in Matthew 13:23 - "And the one on whom seed was sown on the good soil, this is the man who hears the word and understands it; who INDEED BEARS FRUIT and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty." If the seed that fell on the thorny ground produced fruit, where is it? Only the 4th soil produced crops of any size. I suppose the question still remains, "can this forth soil eventually become fruitless?" Only the 4th soil was referred to as "good ground" and produced a crop (fruit) and there is NO MENTION OF CHOKING OR WITHERING THEREAFTER.

I see the change of condition going from not being choked out to being choked out. There was motion, movement and growth, but it was choked out before reaching it's desired goal as the 4th soil did reach it's goal. Just like the seed that fell on the rocky soil, where it did not have much earth; and immediately it sprang up because it had no depth of earth (it sprang up but no crop sprang up) and and because it had no root it withered away. (Mark 4:6) There was motion, movement and growth, unlike the seed that fell by the wayside, yet the condition changed from sprang up (although it did not yet reach it's desired goal) to withered away.

175 /ákarpos ("unfruitful") refers to any thought (action) not originated and empowered by the Lord, i.e. not born of faith (birthed and empowered by God). By definition, all decisions that are not born "of faith are sin" (Ro 14:23) – which automatically renders them eternally fruitless ("a waste"). Such was the case with the stony ground hearer and the thorny ground hearer. :2cents:

episkopos
Nov 15th 2013, 12:45 PM
Here is how I understand it. The original words used still do not change the fact that the word was choked out before reaching it's desired goal. (ginomai) making it [unfruitful]" - it/he becomes [unfruitful, barren]. The subject is usually regarded as ton logon, "the word", so the word is choked and therefore does not produce a renewed spiritual life in the person; "the anxieties of the age and the pleasures of wealth chokes the message and it becomes unfruitful", TNT. The worries of life and the delusions of wealth have the effect of stifling the word/gospel, such that the person does not bear the fruit of salvation; "he becomes unfruitful", Rieu.

If the change of condition is going from fruitful to unfruitful, then why no mention of bearing fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixty and some a hundered, then AFTERWARD it became unfruitful? If the original word meaning really means was fruitful but later became unfruitful, then why do so many translations specify otherwise?

Mark 4:7 ASV
American Standard Version

And other fell among the thorns, and the thorns grew up, and choked it, and it yielded no fruit.

Mark 4:7 BBE
Bible in Basic English

And some went among the thorns, and the thorns came up, and it had no room for growth and gave no fruit.

Mark 4:7 CEB
Common English Bible

Other seed fell among thorny plants. The thorny plants grew and choked the seeds, and they produced nothing.

Mark 4:7 CJB
Complete Jewish Bible

Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked it; so that it yielded no grain.

Mark 4:7 RHE
Douay-Rheims

And some fell among thorns; and the thorns grew up, and choked it, and it yielded no fruit.

Mark 4:7 ESV
English Standard Version

Other seed fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up and choked it, and it yielded no grain.

Mark 4:7 GW
GOD'S WORD Translation

Other seeds were planted among thornbushes. The thornbushes grew up and choked them, and they didn't produce anything.

Mark 4:7 GNT
Good News Translation

Some of the seed fell among thorn bushes, which grew up and choked the plants, and they didn't bear grain.

Mark 4:7 HNV
Hebrew Names Version

Others fell among the thorns, and the thorns grew up, and choked it, and it yielded no fruit.

Mark 4:7 CSB
Holman Christian Standard

Other seed fell among thorns, and the thorns came up and choked it, and it didn't produce a crop.

Mark 4:7 KJV
King James Version

And some fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up , and choked it, and it yielded no fruit.

Mark 4:7 LEB
Lexham English Bible

And other [seed] fell among the thorn plants, and the thorn plants came up and choked it, and it did not produce grain.

Mark 4:7 NAS
New American Standard

"Other seed fell among the thorns, and the thorns came up and choked it, and it yielded no crop.

Mark 4:7 NCV
New Century Version

Some other seed fell among thorny weeds, which grew and choked the good plants. So those plants did not produce a crop.

Mark 4:7 NIV
New International Version

Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants, so that they did not bear grain.

Put a stop to the growth of the word and it gives no fruit (Bible in Basic English) is not the same thing as saying, "gives fruit but then later stops producing fruit." The potential to eventually produce fruit was there, but the word was choked out before reaching it's desired goal. It (the seed, the word) became unfruitful (produces nothing, proves unfruitful, does not produce fruit, yields nothing), because the growth of the word was choked, not because it was previously fruitful. In the Complete Jewish Bible we read, Now the seed sown among thorns stands for someone who hears the message, but it is choked by the worries of the world and the deceitful glamor of wealth, so that it produces nothing. Nothing amounts to nothing and nothing was mentioned about it ever producing something.

A.T. Robertson comments - Who has not seen the promise of fair flower and fruit choked into yellow withered stalk without fruit "as they go on their way" (poreuomenoi). Bring no fruit to perfection (outelesporousin). In contrast, we read in Matthew 13:23 - "And the one on whom seed was sown on the good soil, this is the man who hears the word and understands it; who INDEED BEARS FRUIT and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty." If the seed that fell on the thorny ground produced fruit, where is it? Only the 4th soil produced crops of any size. I suppose the question still remains, "can this forth soil eventually become fruitless?" Only the 4th soil was referred to as "good ground" and produced a crop (fruit) and there is NO MENTION OF CHOKING OR WITHERING THEREAFTER.

175 /ákarpos ("unfruitful") refers to any thought (action) not originated and empowered by the Lord, i.e. not born of faith (birthed and empowered by God). By definition, all decisions that are not born "of faith are sin" (Ro 14:23) – which automatically renders them eternally fruitless ("a waste"). Such was the case with the stony ground hearer and the thorny ground hearer. :2cents:

Who is deciding what the fruit is? Who is deciding what bearing the various amounts of fruit consists of?

We know that the ones who bear fruit in a way that is pleasing to God will receive eternal life and even a reward. But our attitude towards the reading of these verses SHOWS God and others whether the fruit is there or not. A humble man (who is bearing the fruit of humility) will NOT put himself automatically in the winner's circle.


It is the very lack of humility in how we see ourselves against the biblical standard that shows we are DEFINITELY in some way lacking the kind of fruit that God is looking for. We know this by taking the WHOLE counsel of God very seriously. I find that the many disagreements rise up because there is not enough fear and humility among many posters.

An actual relationship to God will cause one to see himself more and more as a failure (unless that one is overcoming at a very high level) rather than more and more sure of his salvation and abundant entrance into eternity. This is where it becomes easy to detect an indoctrination in a make believe relationship to God. No one fears a pretend God. The pretend God just gives you more and more assurance...


1Pe_5:5 Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.


The ones who harp continually on grace should be the most humble....just sayin'

Redeemed by Grace
Nov 15th 2013, 12:55 PM
If we never have to fear out subsequent behavior after determining to follow Christ Jesus, then there was no need to inform us that we must endure to the end to be saved. I would suppose that some people felt like following Jesus meant that we are to follow Him all the way.

James seemed to think that following Him meant that we would do the things that Jesus did and what He taught his disciples to do.

Jesus may have had "finished work." Until we leave this planet, our work is never finished.

Today, I am saved. I will ensure and endure so that, on my final day, I am still saved. I can do that because I follow Jesus.

1 Corinthians chapter 3 addresses those who fail to build in their lives as they should.

Hi Boo. Have you ever considered the phrases like "enduring 'till the end" to be in context of the very last days?

For example, there is a fire hose and maybe an axe mounted on the hall way of the building you work in, and there are instructions written above that deal with how to use within a fire. Now both are placed there now, both have a purpose for now, as in preparation, but the actual use comes into play only when there is a fire in the building.

When I read phrases that tell a Christian to endure to the end, more times than not it is surrounded by text that points to the time of fire, the last days. To the generation that is alive at the time the 'last week' [70th week - Danial -12; Matthew 24] begins, is when endurance will be required, thus the instructions above the fire hose and axe become real now! Not to say that the instructions have no value before a fire happens, this would be preparation - just in case "be ready and prepared", for the application of endurance during these times are somewhat like God's encouraging words to the runner of the race to stay focused.

1 Corinthians 3, the 'work part', is not about losing salvation, for vs 14 confirms that if any man's work is burned up, he still will be saved. If salvation were up to man to keep, then no man would be able to keep himself justified. Our work is faith, and Ephesians 2:10 declares that we [Christians] are HIS workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.


Just something to consider.

Slug1
Nov 15th 2013, 01:06 PM
Hi Boo. Have you ever considered the phrases like "enduring 'till the end" to be in context of the very last days?

That means we have to take the context of other scriptures to be of the last days. Since the topic of that parable is about sowing... the sowing began when Jesus taught the disciples and they began to be sent out into the harvest fields over 2000 years ago. So, if the context is about the last days... then what about the sowing done since the 12, then the 70 and then the WHOLE Body of Christ were sent out to sow and taught the Body, TO ENDURE?

There are scriptures that do have the context of meaning about the end of days... but many of the eduring scritpures are about once you begin your relationship in Christ, then run in that relationship to the very end of a their life, not the last of days.

Pbminimum
Nov 15th 2013, 01:09 PM
Well, to follow your thought, the scripture would be more about not becoming unfruitful but instead Jesus would have to mean/say, "you remain(ed) unfruitful". However, the person became unfruitful... the person did not remain unfruitful.

So standby... getting the Greek on:

Edit:



So the Greek term for "become/became" means about transitioning from one condition to another.

So what does that mean to you? Was the person ALWAYS unfruitful? If so... other than being fruitful, what condition did the person transition from?

Mailman, who is much smarter and studied than I explained in his post what I believe the scripture means pretty well. The transition is from ignorance of the Gospel, to hearing the Gospel, to not responding to the Gospel. That is my interpretation of the scripture.

Pbminimum
Nov 15th 2013, 01:11 PM
I have a different question for both sides of the argument.

1) When we approach God in brokenness and humility and He applies the blood to our life are we as Holy as we will ever be or is there something we can do that will add to the finished work of Jesus Christ?

to the other side:

2) If we die in known unrepentant sin can we be assured of entering into God's Kingdom?

I am interested in hearing a response from both sides.

Blessings :)

Good questions.
1. No
2. Yes. But lets not confuse this with walking in the world.

Aviyah
Nov 15th 2013, 01:23 PM
1) When we approach God in brokenness and humility and He applies the blood to our life are we as Holy as we will ever be or is there something we can do that will add to the finished work of Jesus Christ?

We can't add to what Christ did. After being saved, it's our nature to want to follow Him but our flesh is still fallen.


2) If we die in known unrepentant sin can we be assured of entering into God's Kingdom?

If you are saved, you are guaranteed, John 10:39.

Slug1
Nov 15th 2013, 01:28 PM
Mailman, who is much smarter and studied than I explained in his post what I believe the scripture means pretty well. The transition is from ignorance of the Gospel, to hearing the Gospel, to not responding to the Gospel. That is my interpretation of the scripture.There is no transition if a person hears the Gospel but never responded. Group one is an example of this. No transition at all lost while hearing and remained lost. The other 3 groups however are different. Groups 2 and 3 heard and changed. One began to endure for awhile and then endured no more, so a clear transitioning example. Now, since the transition for group 3 isn't spelled out but we understood they "became" unfruitful... then we have to take scripture into context and determain from ALL of the scriptures, what does this mean.

All we can do here is present the Word of God. But the word/term (became) is clear and the meaning is clear that a tranistion of conditions happens and the end result based on that scripture is that they "became" unfruitful. So as I asked earlier, if this tranistion of becoming unfruitful does not mean they "WERE" fruitful, then what does "became unfruitful" mean?

Besides, when I read Mailmadan's post, the understanding I get in what he's interpreting is that the Gospel was not fruitful in the lives of the people because it was choked out before the person reached a point of accepting Christ, and this lack of the Gospel's bearing of fruit is his defining of the meaning, became unfruitful.

This is changing the meaning of the parable. The parable is about the transitioning of the person after they heard the Gospel, not the transition of the Gospel in the life of a person. The Gospel never changes. People do.

Pbminimum
Nov 15th 2013, 02:07 PM
Slug, you make good points all around. But, the transition you seek in the scriptures wasn't a spiritual one, with the reception of the Holy Spirit, but a mental one, or a false conversion. This is the way I interpret it.
This is also what I see in the world

Redeemed by Grace
Nov 15th 2013, 02:17 PM
That means we have to take the context of other scriptures to be of the last days. Since the topic of that parable is about sowing... the sowing began when Jesus taught the disciples and they began to be sent out into the harvest fields over 2000 years ago. So, if the context is about the last days... then what about the sowing done since the 12, then the 70 and then the WHOLE Body of Christ were sent out to sow and taught the Body, TO ENDURE?

There are scriptures that do have the context of meaning about the end of days... but many of the eduring scritpures are about once you begin your relationship in Christ, then run in that relationship to the very end of a their life, not the last of days.


Have you not also read?

Matthew 10:19 "But when they hand you over, do not worry about how or what you are to say; for it will be given you in that hour what you are to say.
20 "For it is not you who speak, but it is the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you.
21 "Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death.
22 "You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved.
23 "But whenever they persecute you in one city, flee to the next; for truly I say to you, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes.

Matthew 24:10 "At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another.
11 "Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many.
12 "Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold.
13 "But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.
14 "This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.

Mark 13:13 "You will be hated by all because of My name, but the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.
14 "But when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION standing where it should not be (let the reader understand), then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains.

Luke 21:19 "By your endurance you will gain your lives.
20 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near.
21 "Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city;
22 because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled.

The premise of the OP that there is a final salvation - is false, and not biblical, for what God has deemed - stands. If one is saved, it is the work of God [Psalm 20:6], and is now through eternity, not just now, and then maybe not tomorrow, and then maybe on again next week, and then maybe at the last breath - I'll then know... for that's a false understanding of the personal relationship we have with Christ.

Look what Jesus said to Zaccheus

Luke 19:9 And Jesus said to him, "Today salvation has come to this house, because he, too, is a son of Abraham.

Not tomorrow. Not conditional if he endures. Today.

ChangedByHim
Nov 15th 2013, 02:29 PM
The following verses have much to say about this subject:

In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. (Ephesians 1:13, 14 NKJV)

Slug1
Nov 15th 2013, 02:35 PM
Slug, you make good points all around. But, the transition you seek in the scriptures wasn't a spiritual one, with the reception of the Holy Spirit, but a mental one, or a false conversion. This is the way I interpret it.
This is also what I see in the worldI see this in the world also. However, I do not agree with your thughts here. This is why... when a person makes a "mental" reception of the Gospel and thus there is no change of heart, then they are not enduring at all. They may "think" they are. The parable is clear in that those in group 2 ARE enduring and then, due to the reasons given, endure no more. If they began to endure, the conversion IS spiritual (real) because if it is not (mental as you reasoned out), then they would not ever have begun to endure at all. This also means that they cannot transition from enduring to enduring no more.

Aviyah
Nov 15th 2013, 02:38 PM
you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise

Love this part.

Seal (v.):
- To affix a seal to in order to prove authenticity or attest to accuracy, legal weight, quality, or another standard.
- To assure, confirm, or bind with or as if with a seal.
- To establish or determine irrevocably.

shepherdsword
Nov 15th 2013, 03:13 PM
Good questions.
1. No
2. Yes. But lets not confuse this with walking in the world.

So despite the numerous warnings to the contrary you believe that one can practice sin and still enter in God's Kingdom?


Love this part.

Seal (v.):
- To affix a seal to in order to prove authenticity or attest to accuracy, legal weight, quality, or another standard.
- To assure, confirm, or bind with or as if with a seal.
- To establish or determine irrevocably.

That's the problem...people pick out the part they like and ignore the rest.


The "guarantee" is a translation of the greek word "arrabon"




Vine's online dictionary:
<1,,728,arrabon>
originally, "earnest-money" deposited by the purchaser and forfeited if the purchase was not complete, was probably a Phoenician word, introduced into Greece. In general usage it came to denote "a pledge" or "earnest" of any sort; in the NT it is used only of that which is assured by God to believers; it is said of the Holy Spirit as the Divine "pledge" of all their future blessedness, 2 Cor. 1:22; 5:5; in Eph. 1:14, particularly of their eternal inheritance. In the Sept., Gen. 38:17,18,20. In modern Greek arrabona is an "engagement ring."

Vine is absolutley correct in his description. It is used all through Attic literature as a payment that could be taken back if the contract was not fulfilled...just like an engagement ring.

Redeemed by Grace
Nov 15th 2013, 03:14 PM
I see this in the world also. However, I do not agree with your thughts here. This is why... when a person makes a "mental" reception of the Gospel and thus there is no change of heart, then they are not enduring at all.

Somewhat stated backwards, but is close enough to give a half/amen. As Andy wrote his name on Woodie's shoes of Toy Story, the Lord writes His name through His Spirit on our hearts. So... mental assertion without the Holy Spirit is just mental assertion.




They may "think" they are. The parable is clear in that those in group 2 ARE enduring and then, due to the reasons given, endure no more. If they began to endure, the conversion IS spiritual (real) because if it is not (mental as you reasoned out), then they would not ever have begun to endure at all. This also means that they cannot transition from enduring to enduring no more.

Can't use logic here though Slug, for what about the Tares? What if they endure to the end? It's not or never is endurance that saves a man, it is Christ alone. What God has deemed saved, is saved. And He has written that upon the heart. We are His possession. Praise God!

Aviyah
Nov 15th 2013, 03:27 PM
That's the problem...people pick out the part they like and ignore the rest.

So guarantee doesn't really mean guarantee.

"Yea hath God said..."

Slug1
Nov 15th 2013, 04:07 PM
Somewhat stated backwards, but is close enough to give a half/amen. As Andy wrote his name on Woodie's shoes of Toy Story, the Lord writes His name through His Spirit on our hearts. So... mental assertion without the Holy Spirit is just mental assertion.




Can't use logic here though Slug, for what about the Tares? What if they endure to the end? It's not or never is endurance that saves a man, it is Christ alone. What God has deemed saved, is saved. And He has written that upon the heart. We are His possession. Praise God!Tares are not enduring... period. They are lost people who are deceived. They are not who Jesus is speaking about in the parable of the sower.

Let's also take the parable of the 10 virgins. "All" 10 are with a lamp and oil but only 5 endure to the end. A Tare would not have ANY lamp and NEVER have any oil either. So even with that parable, tares are not what is being taught about. The parable dealing with the wheat and the tares is clear, just as the other two parables are clear and they are not ALL teaching about the same thing. However, for the parable of the wheat and tares... if OSAS was correct, then rip those tares out because the wheat will not be affected... but the parable teaches that the wheat CAN be lost when the tares are ripped out and this refutes the OSAS doctrine. Again, if OSAS is accurate, none of these examples in the parables make any sense.

episkopos
Nov 15th 2013, 04:08 PM
Can't use logic here though Slug, for what about the Tares? What if they endure to the end? It's not or never is endurance that saves a man, it is Christ alone.

A sinner endures to the end in sin. Then he is judged as a sinner. But we are talking about enduring to the end in Christ's righteousness above sin or at least in faithful doing what we were commanded to do. If you endure in THAT then you receive the reward due to those who endure in that.


In Christ alone we endure in Christ alone. But if we slacken and continue in sin...simply professing our salvation but not walking in it....then we have not endured.

So we must endure in faithfulness.



What God has deemed saved, is saved. And He has written that upon the heart. We are His possession. Praise God!

His law is written on our hearts. If we turn from that then we have betrayed Christ as well as our own calling in Christ.


Christianity is not a carte blanche and an immunity to sin.

ChangedByHim
Nov 15th 2013, 04:25 PM
Epi, do us all a favor and quote ONE POST from any member here who disagrees with your doctrine that says one may continue to live in sin after professing salvation. I'm only asking for one. Just one post. To repeat, please quote one post where a member here claims that one may continue to live in sin after professing salvation.

episkopos
Nov 15th 2013, 04:34 PM
Epi, do us all a favor and quote ONE POST from any member here who disagrees with your doctrine that says one may continue to live in sin after professing salvation. I'm only asking for one. Just one post. To repeat, please quote one post where a member here claims that one may continue to live in sin after professing salvation.

Show me just one post that professes a victory over sin...


This is the ambiguity of the "saved" status doctrine. The standard is just...whatever!

It is actually rare to find the kind of honesty that exposes the "saved status" doctrine for what it really is. People normally just agree to not bring light to the matter...it's in our common interest, right? If we all stick together in the union then will that bring pressure on the company? If we don't talk about it then it's not a issue?


But there is a greater loyalty to the One who has called us from darkness into the light.

We all know that people sin. But what is not known is that we stop sinning when we abide in Christ. It is NOT known by most Christians. Why? Look at your reasoning.

episkopos
Nov 15th 2013, 04:44 PM
Just what are we being saved FROM?

ChangedByHim
Nov 15th 2013, 04:56 PM
I didn't think you could do it.

As for your request: I am living in victory over sin through Him who lives in me.

episkopos
Nov 15th 2013, 05:00 PM
I didn't think you could do it.

As for your request: I am living in victory over sin through Him who lives in me.

Very good! But you are in the minority. Maybe you assume that others walk as Jesus did because they claim to be saved.

TrustGzus
Nov 15th 2013, 05:07 PM
I didn't think you could do it.

As for your request: I am living in victory over sin through Him who lives in me.

To be clear, could Epi please provide a definition of what "victory over sin" means and or CBH provide a definition so we know whether you agree what meaning is poured into that phrase?

Redeemed by Grace
Nov 15th 2013, 05:12 PM
Tares are not enduring... period. They are lost people who are deceived.

Does a tare know he is a tare? I don't think so.... They behave just like a Christian, they know, they walk and even talk like a Christian. So back to your point of wanting enduring to the end, a tare would also endure as you profess, thinking they are saved....? Matthew 7 would bare that out. [/quote]Your mention of Mt 7 supports whta I've been pointing out about the parables, not your points. Those people (tares) who were/are deceived, weren't even known to God... they WERE not even enduring at all.

edit... RBG... I am so sorry... I hit edit instead of "quote" and replied, which effectively removed about 95% of your post :(

ChangedByHim
Nov 15th 2013, 05:24 PM
To be clear, could Epi please provide a definition of what "victory over sin" means and or CBH provide a definition so we know whether you agree what meaning is poured into that phrase?

Sin, either in general or in particular, does not have mastery over me. I walk in the Spirit and do not live in sin. When I do sin, I immediately receive cleansing by the blood. All of which, I believe, is the New Testament experience.

I have no idea what epi means by "victory over sin."


Very good! But you are in the minority. Maybe you assume that others walk as Jesus did because they claim to be saved.

Maybe you assume that they don't...

TrustGzus
Nov 15th 2013, 05:37 PM
Sin, either in general or in particular, does not have mastery over me. I walk in the Spirit and do not live in sin. When I do sin, I immediately receive cleansing by the blood. All of which, I believe, is the New Testament experience.

I have no idea what epi means by "victory over sin."

Thank you. I share that same experience.

the Seeker
Nov 15th 2013, 06:02 PM
I see the OP as an attempt to validate James 2:15-17. If I call myself a believer, and say I have faith, how is anyone else going to know that? Are they to trust the words coming out of our mouths? Not at all. In truth, Christianity is not a religion; it's a lifestyle. You show your faith by your actions. Remember that James wrote that faith without works is dead.

I also think that the OP is including Paul's version the walk of faith that he has called a race in several epistles. Combining them means that we must continue to walk by faith everyday, winning the war against sin, finishing the race and gaining the prize, salvation. It is not a works based doctrine. It is every bit of salvation by enabling due to the Grace of God. We can not be forgiven of sin save for one thing, we ask Him for it. We can not be faithful unless we do one thing, trust the Lord our God wholeheartedly, which is the act of using faith to believe in God's Words. Again, this is a decision that we have to make for ourselves. It is continual, as the Lord is constantly teaching us how to be a "perfect" human in the eyes of God. He perfects us by our obedience to His Voice, again that act takes faith to accomplish.

The point of salvation? It is the goal at the end of the race. It is not a status like so many infer it to be. It is a trophy, a lasting gift that the Lord will hand us at either the end of our times here on earth, or at His coming. We must continue to develop ourselves by the guidance of our loving and merciful God, showing the evidence of our faith, which are the things that we do from day to day. We can't work to gain salvation, since we do not know how. God does, however, and has provided us the means by which He can personally train each and every one of us to do exactly what we are all born to do. He is in everything that we do, teaching us lessons using some of the things you would never expect, showing us that He is not what we think He was, but He is MUCH MORE than what we could possibly hope for, and the level of His mercy is MINDBOGGLING! Let me assure you, anyone who attempts to unite Paul's view of the day to day race for salvation with James' method of showing your faith by what you do and how you do whatever you do is not telling anyone that we need to earn our salvation. I can not speak for the OP, but personally, I view works-based salvation to be impossible. It is like looking for the gate of heaven with a candle.

shepherdsword
Nov 15th 2013, 06:50 PM
So guarantee doesn't really mean guarantee.

"Yea hath God said..."

No...do you find that word in the greek text? You find "arrabon"


it was the snake that said: "You shall not surely die"

Aviyah
Nov 15th 2013, 07:40 PM
it was the snake that said: "You shall not surely die"

And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. (Eph. 4:30) - Does "sealed" REALLY mean "sealed?"

For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Ro. 8:38-39) - Does death, life, angels, rulers, things, powers, height, depth, and creation REALLY mean death, life, angels, rulers, things, powers, height, depth, and creation?

You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ (John 3:7) - Did He REALLY mean to say "born again" or should he have used something with less permanent connotations?

ChangedByHim
Nov 15th 2013, 08:13 PM
No...do you find that word in the greek text? You find "arrabon"


I appreciate the Greek text and always do word studies as part of my daily study. In fact, I have done my own translations from the Greek text in years past.

Having said that, I have also developed a greater appreciation for the translators over the years. I think that we often try to make something say something different that what the translation says by throwing around a couple of definitions.

The following Greek scholars agreed that the word should be translated "guarantee":

Dr. Arthur L. Farstad. Chairman. New Testament Editor. Dallas, Texas.
Dr. Robert L. Hughes. President, Pensacola Baptist Seminary, Pensacola, Florida.
Dr. Alfred Martin. Professor of Bible, Dallas Bible College, Dallas, Texas.
Rev. William H. McDowell. Professor of Philosophy and Religion, Florida Southern College, Orlando, Florida.
Dr. Robert L. Reymond. Professor of Systematic Theology and Apologetics, Covenant Theological Seminary, St. Louis, Missouri.
Dr. Harry A. Sturz. Professor Emeritus of Greek, Biola College, La Mirada, California.
Dr. William Curtis Vaughan. Professor of New Testament, Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, Fort Worth, Texas.
Dr. Boyce Blackwelder. Anderson College, Anderson, Indiana.
Dr. E. M. Blaiklock. Professor Emeritus of Classics, University of Auckland, Titirangi, Auckland, New Zealand.
Dr. James L. Boyer. Professor Emeritus of New Testament and Greek, Grace Theological Seminary Winona Lake, Indiana.
Dr. John A. Burns. Academic Dean, Luther Rice Seminary, Jacksonville, Florida.
William J. Cameron. Principal Emeritus, Free Church of Scotland College, Edinburgh, Scotland.
Dr. A. Glenn Campbell. Professor Emeritus of New Testament, Greek, and Theology, Montana Institute of the Bible, Ottawa, Kansas.
Dr. Gary C. Cohen. Lecturer, Miami Christian College, Miami, Florida.
Dr. Huber L. Drumwright. Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, Fort Worth, Texas.
Dr. William K. Eichhorst. President of Academic Affairs, Winnipeg Bible College and Theological Seminary, Otterburne, Manitoba, Canada.
Dr. Virtus E. Gideon. Professor of New Testament and Greek, Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, Fort Worth, Texas.
Dr. Robert L. Hendren. Minister, Donelson Church of Christ, Nashville, Tennessee.
Dr. Robert G. Hoerber. Professor of Exegetical Theology, Concordia Seminary, St. Louis, Missouri.
Dr. Ronald Jones. Associate Professor, Victory Tabernacle Baptist Church, Norfolk, Virginia.
Dr. Charles R. Smith. Professor of Christian Theology and Greek, Grace Theological Seminary, Winona Lake, Indiana.
Dr. John A. Sproule. Associate Professor of New Testament and Greek, Grace Theological Seminary, Winona Lake, Indiana.
Dr. Joseph S. Wang. Professor of New Testament, Asbury Theological Seminary, Wilmore, Kentucky.
Dr. Phillip R. Williams. Registrar, Professor of New Testament, Northwest Baptist Seminary, Tacoma, Washington.
Dr. A. Skevington Wood. Principal, Cliff College, Calver, Sheffield, England.
Dr. Lewis A. Foster. Professor of New Testament, Cincinnati Seminary, Cincinnati, Ohio.
Dr. James D. Price. Chairman, Old Testament Translation Committee
Dr. William H. McDowell. English Editor.
Dr. James Borland. Professor of Theology and Bible, Liberty Baptist Seminary.
Dr. D. David Garland. Professor of Old Testament, Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary.
Dr. Paul R. Gilchrist. Professor of Biblical Studies, Covenant College.
Dr R. K. Harrison. Emeritus Professor of Old Testament, Wycliffe College, University of Toronto.
Prof. Zane C. Hodges. Professor of New Testament Literature and Exegesis, Dallas Theological Seminary.
Dr G. Herbert Livingston. Chairman, Division of Biblical Studies, Asbury Theological Seminary.


IMO, that carries a little bit of weight.

percho
Nov 15th 2013, 08:20 PM
Just what are we being saved FROM?

The gates of Hades shall not prevail against her.

Though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death.

She shall indeed walk through the gates, but they shall not be able to hold her therein.

episkopos
Nov 15th 2013, 09:11 PM
To be clear, could Epi please provide a definition of what "victory over sin" means and or CBH provide a definition so we know whether you agree what meaning is poured into that phrase?

I believe victory over sin is the same as overcoming...and it means to have found your way to the bosom of Christ. The way is narrow and it takes a lot of surrender to get there....but there is a keeping power of God so that we walk in His fire where no sin can penetrate. That is what it means to "walk in the light" and to be perfect as the Father is perfect. Only when we abide in His fire are we kept from sin. Jesus walked like this. And where He is we can now be. We can "put on" this new man after we have "put off" the old with his tendency to sin.

That is the proper understanding at the proper depth of what the NT message is all about. In that place we are dead to sin.

episkopos
Nov 15th 2013, 09:15 PM
I see the OP as an attempt to validate James 2:15-17. If I call myself a believer, and say I have faith, how is anyone else going to know that? Are they to trust the words coming out of our mouths? Not at all. In truth, Christianity is not a religion; it's a lifestyle. You show your faith by your actions. Remember that James wrote that faith without works is dead.

I also think that the OP is including Paul's version the walk of faith that he has called a race in several epistles. Combining them means that we must continue to walk by faith everyday, winning the war against sin, finishing the race and gaining the prize, salvation. It is not a works based doctrine. It is every bit of salvation by enabling due to the Grace of God. We can not be forgiven of sin save for one thing, we ask Him for it. We can not be faithful unless we do one thing, trust the Lord our God wholeheartedly, which is the act of using faith to believe in God's Words. Again, this is a decision that we have to make for ourselves. It is continual, as the Lord is constantly teaching us how to be a "perfect" human in the eyes of God. He perfects us by our obedience to His Voice, again that act takes faith to accomplish.

The point of salvation? It is the goal at the end of the race. It is not a status like so many infer it to be. It is a trophy, a lasting gift that the Lord will hand us at either the end of our times here on earth, or at His coming. We must continue to develop ourselves by the guidance of our loving and merciful God, showing the evidence of our faith, which are the things that we do from day to day. We can't work to gain salvation, since we do not know how. God does, however, and has provided us the means by which He can personally train each and every one of us to do exactly what we are all born to do. He is in everything that we do, teaching us lessons using some of the things you would never expect, showing us that He is not what we think He was, but He is MUCH MORE than what we could possibly hope for, and the level of His mercy is MINDBOGGLING! Let me assure you, anyone who attempts to unite Paul's view of the day to day race for salvation with James' method of showing your faith by what you do and how you do whatever you do is not telling anyone that we need to earn our salvation. I can not speak for the OP, but personally, I view works-based salvation to be impossible. It is like looking for the gate of heaven with a candle.

Amen! A biblical perspective! :)

ChangedByHim
Nov 15th 2013, 09:16 PM
I believe victory over sin is the same as overcoming...and it means to have found your way to the bosom of Christ. The way is narrow and it takes a lot of surrender to get there....but there is a keeping power of God so that we walk in His fire where no sin can penetrate. That is what it means to "walk in the light" and to be perfect as the Father is perfect. Only when we abide in His fire are we kept from sin. Jesus walked like this. And where He is we can now be. We can "put on" this new man after we have "put off" the old with his tendency to sin.

That is the proper understanding at the proper depth of what the NT message is all about. In that place we are dead to sin.
Your responses are always absent of practical application. I guess that's just the mystic in you.

TrustGzus
Nov 15th 2013, 09:36 PM
I believe victory over sin is the same as overcoming...and it means to have found your way to the bosom of Christ. The way is narrow and it takes a lot of surrender to get there....but there is a keeping power of God so that we walk in His fire where no sin can penetrate. That is what it means to "walk in the light" and to be perfect as the Father is perfect. Only when we abide in His fire are we kept from sin. Jesus walked like this. And where He is we can now be. We can "put on" this new man after we have "put off" the old with his tendency to sin.

That is the proper understanding at the proper depth of what the NT message is all about. In that place we are dead to sin.

CBH, Epi says Jesus walked like this. There is a keeping power where we walk in his power where no sin penetrates. Be perfect as the Father is perfect.

I could be wrong, but cutting through Epi's language, it sounds like you guys use the phrase "victory over sin" differently. Yours sounds like progressive growth. Epi's sounds like sinless perfection.

If I am misunderstanding then either of you can tell me that I don't understand your view.

Redeemed by Grace
Nov 15th 2013, 09:40 PM
Does a tare know he is a tare? I don't think so.... They behave just like a Christian, they know, they walk and even talk like a Christian. So back to your point of wanting enduring to the end, a tare would also endure as you profess, thinking they are saved....? Matthew 7 would bare that out. Your mention of Mt 7 supports whta I've been pointing out about the parables, not your points. Those people (tares) who were/are deceived, weren't even known to God... they WERE not even enduring at all.

edit... RBG... I am so sorry... I hit edit instead of "quote" and replied, which effectively removed about 95% of your post :(

Well now, isn't that special? ;)

Just remember that with enduring, it is something that is thrust upon some one and preparing is the getting ready for. You write that they are equal and they are not. So when the bible states endure to the end, it is a condition that is thrust upon those who will be going through the last days. And the preparation is everyone who believes reasonable service to be ready, willing, and able -- if and/or when called. BUT NEITHER, repeating, but neither - action, whether external [endure] or internal [prepare] are actions of saving ones self, for whom the Lord Saves, the Lord secures. Obedience is an outcome not a condition of being saved. But you will argue against that, as you always do.

Neanias
Nov 15th 2013, 10:09 PM
Your responses are always absent of practical application. I guess that's just the mystic in you.

The practical application is there: by faith we enter into Christ and partake of the very same life. There is no technique or formula, only that it requires a full surrender to God and faith the size of a mustard seed, and then abiding there.

Is the above the cynic in you? ;)

ChangedByHim
Nov 15th 2013, 10:14 PM
The practical application is there: by faith we enter into Christ and partake of the very same life. There is no technique or formula, only that it requires a full surrender to God and faith the size of a mustard seed, and then abiding there.

Is the above the cynic in you? ;)
Yes it is the cynic in me. The Word tells me to "prove all things and hold fast to that which is good." Saying that "sin cannot penetrate me" is not practical in anyway. Does that mean that he is not capable of sinning?

If I was a new believer, how would I apply "sin cannot penetrate me?"

Do you sin? Have you sinned? Are you in Christ or out of Christ at the moment?

Neanias
Nov 15th 2013, 10:16 PM
You've assumed that the talents in that parable was salvation? How does one have 7 salvations?? How does one make more salvations???

Also:



"And then letting God judge..." what? Our works, right? So how is that different than works-based salvation? How can your interpretation of salvation not be synonymous with 'superiority by works' if the requirement for salvation is doing good works?

I haven't assumed that the talents are salvation. I have said the exact opposite: people assuming receiving one thing from God is eternal salvation. I'm here telling you we don't have an 'eternal guaranteed salvation', we have a provision of new life which is salvation for us today, in our daily battle, and a promise of salvation for those who are fruitful with this provision which is given them.

Does it bother that God, as the Word says, will judge the church and give everyone according to his works?

The one who loves the light comes to the light because his works are done in God. (This is basically a direct quotation from John) People hate this because they are scared to be judged by what they have done. God is merciful, that is true, but he also commands us to do things. Our obedience reveals whether we have a living faith. Is God not just for judging us according to this?

This is not preaching the superiority of works, but the call to obedience, and to do the works of the Father like Jesus did. It is not a 'requirement of salvation'. Salvation at the end of the age is not something we calculate or measure, God will accept whom he wills and reject whom he wills, we are to be obedient.

ChangedByHim
Nov 15th 2013, 10:17 PM
CBH, Epi says Jesus walked like this. There is a keeping power where we walk in his power where no sin penetrates. Be perfect as the Father is perfect.

I could be wrong, but cutting through Epi's language, it sounds like you guys use the phrase "victory over sin" differently. Yours sounds like progressive growth. Epi's sounds like sinless perfection.

If I am misunderstanding then either of you can tell me that I don't understand your view.

Yes. I would agree that we do not mean the same thing.

Neanias
Nov 15th 2013, 10:27 PM
Yes it is the cynic in me. The Word tells me to "prove all things and hold fast to that which is good." Saying that "sin cannot penetrate me" is not practical in anyway. Does that mean that he is not capable of sinning?

If I was a new believer, how would I apply "sin cannot penetrate me?"

Do you sin? Have you sinned? Are you in Christ or out of Christ at the moment?

1 John 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. 6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. 7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

The reality is that there is a provision in Christ to be as he is. If we are filled with him to overflowing, how can there be sin in us? If we are perfectly one with him, sin would have to be in him also for it to be in us, since we are now one.

I have sin, I have sinned. I am not in Christ. Not like this. I have had but a small taste of this life and power. So now I count all things as loss that I may know him, and be found in him. He has finished his work and made this perfect provision, it remains for me to enter it. So this is the first and most important quest of my life. As a matter of fact, all others become meaningless in the face of this: being one with him, knowing him, the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of his sufferings. :)

The Biblical witness tells me that in him is no sin, and he is not a minister of sin, and a student can become like his Master, and one with him. So I move towards this.

ChangedByHim
Nov 15th 2013, 10:37 PM
Thanks for the openness. And as you previously expressed sadness for me, I am truly sorry that you feel that you are not in Christ. God bless you brother.

episkopos
Nov 15th 2013, 11:00 PM
Your responses are always absent of practical application. I guess that's just the mystic in you.

I see the biblical standard akin to having the major leagues as in baseball but rather in the Christian life. The gulf between just playing with friends on the weekend with a house league ...to triple A and on to the majors....expresses what Paul was after. He strove to win Christ the way an athlete runs for gold or a young ball player strives to get in the big leagues. I'm afraid that there are not too many Christians even seeking this in our time.

What I see that a lack of this striving indicates a spiritual slumber....or worse...a spiritual apostasy.

episkopos
Nov 15th 2013, 11:05 PM
CBH, Epi says Jesus walked like this. There is a keeping power where we walk in his power where no sin penetrates. Be perfect as the Father is perfect.

I could be wrong, but cutting through Epi's language, it sounds like you guys use the phrase "victory over sin" differently. Yours sounds like progressive growth. Epi's sounds like sinless perfection.

If I am misunderstanding then either of you can tell me that I don't understand your view.




I don't restrict the Christian walk to just walking in the fulness of Christ. There are also many "orbits" around Christ as we seek to devote ourselves as much as we can. There is much merit in this as well. But we must never call that the finish and the same as abiding INSIDE Jesus....we are to keep persevering and striving for the full walk as Jesus walked. It keeps you humble! :)

Without the holy standard of God we tend to lower the witness of Christ to what men can do in their own strength. That is not wise.

Aviyah
Nov 15th 2013, 11:14 PM
I'm here telling you we don't have an 'eternal guaranteed salvation', we have a provision of new life which is salvation for us today, in our daily battle, and a promise of salvation for those who are fruitful with this provision which is given them.

How many good works do I need to do to be saved? Or to use your wording, how many good fruits do I need to bear to be saved? Can someone be saved on their deathbed?


Salvation at the end of the age

Salvation doesn't happen at the end, it happens before the end. That's why Jesus told the woman "You faith has saved you." That's not future tense.

episkopos
Nov 15th 2013, 11:29 PM
How many good works do I need to do to be saved? Or to use your wording, how many good fruits do I need to bear to be saved?



Salvation doesn't happen at the end, it happens before the end. That's why Jesus told the woman "You faith has saved you." That's not future tense.


Your reasoning doesn't correspond to the biblical witness because the bible holds no "saved" status. From the eternal perspective God sees who will run and win. But don't have that kind of sight. That is why it must be by faith. We are all "in play" and are running a race of attainment to live as Jesus did. By faith we run in the determination to win...and in order to do that we must seek to be clothed in Christ and the power of God.

Aviyah
Nov 16th 2013, 12:04 AM
Your reasoning doesn't correspond to the biblical witness because the bible holds no "saved" status.

He told her, "Your faith has saved you." Therefore there was a point at which she was not saved, and there was a point at which she became saved. "Saved" is past tense. He did not say "will save you," He said "has saved you" - which means she was saved (obvious?). I really don't understand why this is an argument. Either you are saved or you are not saved. The woman was saved when she had faith, not when she went out and did good works.



From the eternal perspective God sees who will run and win.

Again, how many good works do I need to do to get saved / how many "good fruits" do I need to bear to get saved? One? Two? A thousand? At least one more than the evil deeds I've done?

Slug1
Nov 16th 2013, 03:26 AM
Well now, isn't that special? ;)Hooah, thank you. I think we've been through this before in the past.


Just remember that with enduring, it is something that is thrust upon some one and preparing is the getting ready for. You write that they are equal and they are not. So when the bible states endure to the end, it is a condition that is thrust upon those who will be going through the last days. And the preparation is everyone who believes reasonable service to be ready, willing, and able -- if and/or when called. BUT NEITHER, repeating, but neither - action, whether external [endure] or internal [prepare] are actions of saving ones self, for whom the Lord Saves, the Lord secures. While I understand the "end of days" context of enduring... there is also a context concerning the endurance of running the full length of time one is in relationship with God. This begins when a person chooses to accept Christ and should they persevere/endure to the end of their life still in a relationship with God, then they "endured" to the end.


Obedience is an outcome not a condition of being saved. But you will argue against that, as you always do.Argue? Not necessarily... obedience is the fruit of the condition of ones heart. If a person is NOT obedient to God, be they Christian or not, then where is their heart at? Not aligned with God based on bearing the fruit of disobedience. Disobedience is quick... Moses was told to speak to the rock and he was disobedient... what was the condition of Moses' heart at that moment? What is the condition of your heart, or my heart when you or I are disobedient to the Lord? So, YES... obedience is evidence of a heart that is in Christ but based on the obedience, the condition of the heart can be discerned.

ewq1938
Nov 16th 2013, 03:28 AM
And no one on here has indicated that salvation is a commodity. It is a free gift , than cannot be earned and isn't deserved (Eph 2 / 8).

That isn't true. You are misunderstanding that verse. It means we cannot save ourselves but we can accept Christ, repent and receive this gift. The gift is only given to someone who has demonstrated that they deserve it. If the gift was truly unearned it would be given to non-Christians.

Name the last time you approached a complete stranger and gave them a gift, especially one of such high value. "I bought you a brand new iPad! Enjoy it whoever you are!"

We don't do that. We give gifts for certain reasons and to those that have done something deserving of a gift. We give gifts to those that love us, for their birthdays, for special events, because they gave us a gift for our birthday or holiday etc. A gift is always earned in some way.

God does not give salvation to unbelievers. Unbelievers must believe in Christ and become believers and follow the moral laws of scripture and then they receive the promise of this gift!

Aviyah
Nov 16th 2013, 03:31 AM
If the gift was truly unearned it would be given to non-Christians.

So to become Christian, one must already be Christian?

ewq1938
Nov 16th 2013, 03:53 AM
How does that answer my question?


I look at it from this perspective:

1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

I guess the term "were" is the key.

shepherdsword
Nov 16th 2013, 08:58 AM
How does that answer my question?

Apologies....I thought the meaning was clear. While I agree with your suggestion that in the final analysis God is the judge and can overlook whatever He wants, I think dying in known unrepentant sin is a dangerous place to be.

ewq1938
Nov 16th 2013, 09:04 AM
Apologies....I thought the meaning was clear. While I agree with your suggestion that in the final analysis God is the judge and can overlook whatever He wants, I think dying in known unrepentant sin is a dangerous place to be.

I will ask again: Can God forgive sins after death?

shepherdsword
Nov 16th 2013, 09:12 AM
I appreciate the Greek text and always do word studies as part of my daily study. In fact, I have done my own translations from the Greek text in years past.


Having said that, I have also developed a greater appreciation for the translators over the years. I think that we often try to make something say something different that what the translation says by throwing around a couple of definitions.


The following Greek scholars agreed that the word should be translated "guarantee":


Dr. Arthur L. Farstad. Chairman. New Testament Editor. Dallas, Texas.
Dr. Robert L. Hughes. President, Pensacola Baptist Seminary, Pensacola, Florida.
Dr. Alfred Martin. Professor of Bible, Dallas Bible College, Dallas, Texas.
Rev. William H. McDowell. Professor of Philosophy and Religion, Florida Southern College, Orlando, Florida.
Dr. Robert L. Reymond. Professor of Systematic Theology and Apologetics, Covenant Theological Seminary, St. Louis, Missouri.
Dr. Harry A. Sturz. Professor Emeritus of Greek, Biola College, La Mirada, California.
Dr. William Curtis Vaughan. Professor of New Testament, Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, Fort Worth, Texas.
Dr. Boyce Blackwelder. Anderson College, Anderson, Indiana.
Dr. E. M. Blaiklock. Professor Emeritus of Classics, University of Auckland, Titirangi, Auckland, New Zealand.
Dr. James L. Boyer. Professor Emeritus of New Testament and Greek, Grace Theological Seminary Winona Lake, Indiana.
Dr. John A. Burns. Academic Dean, Luther Rice Seminary, Jacksonville, Florida.
William J. Cameron. Principal Emeritus, Free Church of Scotland College, Edinburgh, Scotland.
Dr. A. Glenn Campbell. Professor Emeritus of New Testament, Greek, and Theology, Montana Institute of the Bible, Ottawa, Kansas.
Dr. Gary C. Cohen. Lecturer, Miami Christian College, Miami, Florida.
Dr. Huber L. Drumwright. Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, Fort Worth, Texas.
Dr. William K. Eichhorst. President of Academic Affairs, Winnipeg Bible College and Theological Seminary, Otterburne, Manitoba, Canada.
Dr. Virtus E. Gideon. Professor of New Testament and Greek, Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, Fort Worth, Texas.
Dr. Robert L. Hendren. Minister, Donelson Church of Christ, Nashville, Tennessee.
Dr. Robert G. Hoerber. Professor of Exegetical Theology, Concordia Seminary, St. Louis, Missouri.
Dr. Ronald Jones. Associate Professor, Victory Tabernacle Baptist Church, Norfolk, Virginia.
Dr. Charles R. Smith. Professor of Christian Theology and Greek, Grace Theological Seminary, Winona Lake, Indiana.
Dr. John A. Sproule. Associate Professor of New Testament and Greek, Grace Theological Seminary, Winona Lake, Indiana.
Dr. Joseph S. Wang. Professor of New Testament, Asbury Theological Seminary, Wilmore, Kentucky.
Dr. Phillip R. Williams. Registrar, Professor of New Testament, Northwest Baptist Seminary, Tacoma, Washington.
Dr. A. Skevington Wood. Principal, Cliff College, Calver, Sheffield, England.
Dr. Lewis A. Foster. Professor of New Testament, Cincinnati Seminary, Cincinnati, Ohio.
Dr. James D. Price. Chairman, Old Testament Translation Committee
Dr. William H. McDowell. English Editor.
Dr. James Borland. Professor of Theology and Bible, Liberty Baptist Seminary.
Dr. D. David Garland. Professor of Old Testament, Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary.
Dr. Paul R. Gilchrist. Professor of Biblical Studies, Covenant College.
Dr R. K. Harrison. Emeritus Professor of Old Testament, Wycliffe College, University of Toronto.
Prof. Zane C. Hodges. Professor of New Testament Literature and Exegesis, Dallas Theological Seminary.
Dr G. Herbert Livingston. Chairman, Division of Biblical Studies, Asbury Theological Seminary.




IMO, that carries a little bit of weight.


It carries zero weight and plenty of bias. It's like a commentary on tongues by MacArthur. Which one of the scholars you presented translated the verse? Fortunately we have access to not only the Kione Greek NT texts but the numerous Attic Classical literature that use this word in it's historical context as well.




I will ask again: Can God forgive sins after death?

I will ask you again. If you die in known unrepentant sin can you be assured of entering into God's Kingdom?

ewq1938
Nov 16th 2013, 09:14 AM
I will ask you again. If you die in known unrepentant sin can you be assured of entering into God's Kingdom?

I asked you first, I will answer when you do.

shepherdsword
Nov 16th 2013, 09:19 AM
I asked you first, I will answer when you do.

This is getting childish. Let me know when you willing to answer the question..which I asked first. You responded with this question.:rolleyes:




Eze 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.



I am going to add a bit more here. I think if we die in unrepentant "sin unto death" then our fate is sealed. Will God overlook certain sins? I am sure He will. I am just not willing to gamble eternity on which ones. I get no pleasure from the result of judgement that many will face. I actually hope the "OSAS" group is correct. Heck,I even hope the "universal reconciliation" group is correct. It's just I don't see any of those two positions in the scriptures. For me to do that I would have to disregard the numerous warnings in both Testaments that clearly state otherwise. I have a simple position. I keep my eyes on Jesus the author and finisher of my faith and lay aside the burdens and the sins that so easily confound me.

ewq1938
Nov 16th 2013, 09:42 AM
2) If we die in known unrepentant sin can we be assured of entering into God's Kingdom?

Apologies, you did ask first.

I will answer then I hope you will.

On judgement day, if we have unrepented sins then I assume we will not be saved.

Now I ask you: Can God forgive sins after death?

mailmandan
Nov 16th 2013, 12:00 PM
Sin, either in general or in particular, does not have mastery over me. I walk in the Spirit and do not live in sin. When I do sin, I immediately receive cleansing by the blood. All of which, I believe, is the New Testament experience.

Amen! "Walk in the Spirit and do not live in sin" does not mean that we will never sin at all (sinless perfection). There is certainly a difference between live in sin "practice" sin (no repentance just bring it on) and commit an act of sin but pursue repentance. 1 John 1:8-10 - If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

1 John 2:1 - My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.


I have no idea what epi means by "victory over sin."

I believe he means in a practical sense (sinless perfection) that is accomplished "IN Christ."


Maybe you assume that they don't...

How many of us claim to walk EXACTLY as Jesus walked CONTINUOUSLY, sinless (without fault or defect, flawlessly?) I've heard claims as long as three years straight but I'm yet to hear anyone claim to have arrived at entire sanctification and walk EXACTLY as Jesus walked on a CONTINUOUS basis without fail. You said, "I am living in victory over sin through Him who lives in me." Amen! I am as well. Praise the Lord! You also mentioned, "when I do sin," so you are not claiming sinless perfection. Neither am I.

Boo
Nov 16th 2013, 12:36 PM
Apologies, you did ask first.

I will answer then I hope you will.

On judgement day, if we have unrepented sins then I assume we will not be saved.

Now I ask you: Can God forgive sins after death?

Then I guess that 1 Corinthians 3 does not apply from your point of view?

9 For we are God's fellow workers. You are God's field, God's building.
10 According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and someone else is building upon it. Let each one take care how he builds upon it.
11 For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw---
13 each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done.
14 If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward.
15 If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

Redeemed by Grace
Nov 16th 2013, 01:57 PM
Hooah, thank you. I think we've been through this before in the past.

While I understand the "end of days" context of enduring... there is also a context concerning the endurance of running the full length of time one is in relationship with God. This begins when a person chooses to accept Christ and should they persevere/endure to the end of their life still in a relationship with God, then they "endured" to the end.

I can appreciate your desire to make life something to endure, but really that's not what the christian walk is all about. As you should remember before you erased my previous post, endurance is something outside of our control that one is thrusted upon. The folks who survived the Tsunomi, they endured - went through it. When Christ enters your heart, you are a new creation, for again as Jesus told Zaccheus....

Luke 19:9 And Jesus said to him, "Today salvation has come to this house, because he, too, is a son of Abraham.



Argue? Not necessarily... obedience is the fruit of the condition of ones heart. If a person is NOT obedient to God, be they Christian or not, then where is their heart at? Not aligned with God based on bearing the fruit of disobedience. Disobedience is quick... Moses was told to speak to the rock and he was disobedient... what was the condition of Moses' heart at that moment? What is the condition of your heart, or my heart when you or I are disobedient to the Lord? So, YES... obedience is evidence of a heart that is in Christ but based on the obedience, the condition of the heart can be discerned.

Where is the Holy Spirit then within the heart of a believer?

TrustGzus
Nov 16th 2013, 02:07 PM
I don't restrict the Christian walk to just walking in the fulness of Christ.

So "victory over sin" and "walking in the fullness of Christ" are different? "Victory over sin" is sinless and "walking in the fullness of Christ" involves sin in ones life still, maybe? Explain the difference as you see it and please, please use Scripture otherwise it's just member episkopos and what episkopos or TrustGzus thinks doesn't really matter.


There are also many "orbits" around Christ as we seek to devote ourselves as much as we can. There is much merit in this as well.

Great. Show me the orbits in Scripture. Again, otherwise it's just episkopos and it can be disregarded.


Without the holy standard of God we tend to lower the witness of Christ to what men can do in their own strength. That is not wise.

Episkopos, who is throwing out the holy standard of God? Which of our members are doing that? Can you paste some quotes from members with links so I can read their posts in their original context? Without some links, it's just episkopos talking again. I don't want to beat the air. If someone is saying this, I'd like to talk directly with them myself and ask them about some passages of Scripture.

Thank you kindly,

Joe

TrustGzus
Nov 16th 2013, 02:53 PM
It carries zero weight and plenty of bias. It's like a commentary on tongues by MacArthur. Which one of the scholars you presented translated the verse? Fortunately we have access to not only the Kione Greek NT texts but the numerous Attic Classical literature that use this word in it's historical context as well.

Shephersword, I haven't tracked back where the discussion on guarantee started and how it's being used. I've gone back two pages to track it down a little. But I'd ask you step back and think about what you said here.

CBH just listed for you every Greek scholar involved in the translating of the New Testament of the NKJV. These are men who are educated more than most, if not every, member of the forum on the language. They come from a variety of theological backgrounds (so there is diversity and cross-examination for doctrinal bias) and I give the benefit of the doubt that most or all of them are Spirit-filled born again believers.

You just stated that all of their thoughts on this word carry zero weight and plenty of bias. Do you really want to claim that? Do you want to take all of them and toss them out by a single comparison to John MacArthur and his view on tongues.

Even then, and I speak as a man who spent 18 years in charismatic churches, MacArthur's view is one in which he exposits texts carefully and in context. One may disagree with him, but can we just cast off any defender of tongues if they speak in tongues as biased because they speak in tongues in the same of just discarding MacArthur? Can we just cast off Chuck Smith's about tongues because Chuck claimed to speak in tongues? But that's talking about discarding one individual, I don't think we cast off what all these scholars did with ἀρραβων.

Would you say the same of those who translated ἀρραβων as guarantee in the ESV? The word is used three times in the NT and both the NKJV and ESV translators used guarantee all three times. Not all reputable translations use that word. NASB, for example, uses pledge. The KJV uses earnest.

I'm not saying this settles the theological debate of the issue you were talking about. I'm just asking if you really mean to say that.

CBH said those names carry a little weight. I find it hard to believe you really mean they carry zero weight. What weight and bias do you and I carry?

Grace & peace to you, my friend.

Joe

ChangedByHim
Nov 16th 2013, 03:49 PM
It carries zero weight and plenty of bias. It's like a commentary on tongues by MacArthur. Which one of the scholars you presented translated the verse? Fortunately we have access to not only the Kione Greek NT texts but the numerous Attic Classical literature that use this word in it's historical context as well.





I will ask you again. If you die in known unrepentant sin can you be assured of entering into God's Kingdom?

The translators of the New King James Bible are like a commentary by MacArthur on tongues? I really can't believe you said that. If that was the case I would throw out my Bible today. I can't trust my Bible but should trust a post on an Internet forum?

I was not even being specific to that one word, but just making a point in general.

episkopos
Nov 16th 2013, 03:59 PM
He told her, "Your faith has saved you." Therefore there was a point at which she was not saved, and there was a point at which she became saved. "Saved" is past tense. He did not say "will save you," He said "has saved you" - which means she was saved (obvious?). I really don't understand why this is an argument. Either you are saved or you are not saved. The woman was saved when she had faith, not when she went out and did good works.

A person with a broken leg who is healed by faith was now healed in the past. No amount of good works can heal a broken leg. But getting healed and being saved in the moment of an injury(to walk again) does not ensure a future glory in heaven.





Again, how many good works do I need to do to get saved / how many "good fruits" do I need to bear to get saved? One? Two? A thousand? At least one more than the evil deeds I've done?


You are still only seeing saved as a guarantee of future bliss in heaven. That is an indoctrination that does that. Don't you ever get a splinter?

episkopos
Nov 16th 2013, 04:12 PM
So "victory over sin" and "walking in the fullness of Christ" are different?

Quite the opposite.



"Victory over sin" is sinless and "walking in the fullness of Christ" involves sin in ones life still, maybe?


No...he who sins is a slave to sin...



Explain the difference as you see it and please, please use Scripture otherwise it's just member episkopos and what episkopos or TrustGzus thinks doesn't really matter.



If I use scripture (which never convince anyone ever to change their view) the indoctrination kicks in and we just go in circles. One needs to open the mind a little and look at an alternate INTERPRETATION and see if THAT is supported by the word or not.

The bible ONLY speaks of a full victory over sin in he that abides in Christ. The sin comes in as we are led away from a FULL trust in Christ to take the very next breath.

John says....IF we sin we have an advocate (1 John 1) ....That same "if" is ignored equally when speaking of the conditional nature of salvation which is IN Christ.

The normal standard for one who is in Christ is to be DEAD to sin . (Romans 6)





Great. Show me the orbits in Scripture. Again, otherwise it's just episkopos and it can be disregarded.


There were the 12 disciples...there were the 70...the 120 and then there was the 3,000 and 5,000.


There is the 30 fold, 60 and 100 fold.... There is the least and greatest in the kingdom....etc...




Episkopos, who is throwing out the holy standard of God?


The same way we need to acknowledge Christ is the same way we need to understand at what depth of a walk we are called to. Naming a name without knowing the game is to invent a standard of our own. In this way we make our own Jesus. But to know Him means to know Him according to who He is and what He stands for.



Which of our members are doing that? Can you paste some quotes from members with links so I can read their posts in their original context? Without some links, it's just episkopos talking again. I don't want to beat the air. If someone is saying this, I'd like to talk directly with them myself and ask them about some passages of Scripture.

Thank you kindly,

I prefer a non-accusatory exhortation.

Which are not striving for the fulness in Christ as Paul did? I leave that for each member to decide for himself/herself. I am sending a blanket encouragement to seek this to all...including myself.

ChangedByHim
Nov 16th 2013, 04:51 PM
I prefer a non-accusatory exhortation.



TRANSLATION: There are none.

We all know because we've looked and the posts don't exist.

Noeb
Nov 16th 2013, 05:06 PM
The bible ONLY speaks of a full victory over sin in he that abides in Christ. I've said it a 100x and will say it again......You have it backwards.
Those in Christ are growing in the knowledge of Christ by Grace.

shepherdsword
Nov 16th 2013, 05:55 PM
The translators of the New King James Bible are like a commentary by MacArthur on tongues? I really can't believe you said that. If that was the case I would throw out my Bible today. I can't trust my Bible but should trust a post on an Internet forum?

I was not even being specific to that one word, but just making a point in general.


Bias is bias not matter what the subject. Personally I don't trust dispensationists from Dallas Theological seminary to give me an unbiased translation of a key word in the eternal security doctrine. Just like I wouldn't trust MacArthur on the subject of gifts of the Spirit.

episkopos
Nov 16th 2013, 06:19 PM
I've said it a 100x and will say it again......You have it backwards.
Those in Christ are growing in the knowledge of Christ by Grace.

And Paul sought to win Christ with all his might. But Paul must have been very far behind us modern Christians who just leave everything for Jesus to do on His own....

episkopos
Nov 16th 2013, 06:21 PM
TRANSLATION: There are none.

We all know because we've looked and the posts don't exist.

I could point out that you claim a victory over sin but without actually having victory over sin.... but what would that do?

ChangedByHim
Nov 16th 2013, 06:22 PM
Bias is bias not matter what the subject. Personally I don't trust dispensationists from Dallas Theological seminary to give me an unbiased translation of a key word in the eternal security doctrine. Just like I wouldn't trust MacArthur on the subject of gifts of the Spirit.

Well I'm not OSAS, but I also don't have a problem with the word guarantee. If I purchase a product with a guarantee but intentionally damage it, the guarantee is voided.

Have you investigated all of the backgrounds of the editors at helpsbible to make sure they don't have bias?

ChangedByHim
Nov 16th 2013, 06:24 PM
I could point out that you claim a victory over sin but without actually having victory over sin.... but what would that do?

Did you actually just proclaim that I don't have victory over sin? SMH.

episkopos
Nov 16th 2013, 06:27 PM
Did you actually just proclaim that I don't have victory over sin? SMH.

I gave you the biblical standard of being perfect as the Father is perfect....and you freely admitted that you did not live to that standard. But I'm not pushing this...I was asked to show who was NOT holding to the perfect standard. You said that no one contradicted me on this...will you now do so to prove my point?

ChangedByHim
Nov 16th 2013, 06:29 PM
I gave you the biblical standard of being perfect as the Father is perfect....and you freely admitted that you did not live to that standard. But I'm not pushing this...I was asked to show who was NOT holding to the perfect standard. You said that no one contradicted me on this...will you now do so to prove my point?

You display your imperfection in just about every post you make.

That's not what you were asked. You were asked to quote anyone who said that a holy standard was not required. No one but you and your personal disciples make claims of perfection.

episkopos
Nov 16th 2013, 06:36 PM
You display your imperfection in just about every post you make.

That's not what you were asked. You were asked to quote anyone who said that a holy standard was not required. No one but you and your personal disciples make claims of perfection.

Make claims of what Jesus Christ has said...

Why be defensive?

Only pride could see the words of Christ as a personal affront. All you would have to say is...I have not yet attained to the walk the Lord speaks of...as Paul did. Then we could have agreement. It's that easy.

ChangedByHim
Nov 16th 2013, 06:42 PM
Make claims of what Jesus Christ has said...

Why be defensive?

Only pride could see the words of Christ as a personal affront. All you would have to say is...I have not yet attained to the walk the Lord speaks of...as Paul did. Then we could have agreement. It's that easy.

Your words are not the words of Christ. None of us have attained, as you said, including Paul, and including you. The difference is that I know that I am still in Christ and your doctrine teaches that one goes in and out of Christ in these temporary forms of salvation.

episkopos
Nov 16th 2013, 06:56 PM
Your words are not the words of Christ. None of us have attained, as you said, including Paul, and including you. The difference is that I know that I am still in Christ and your doctrine teaches that one goes in and out of Christ in these temporary forms of salvation.

Is this what the bible teaches? Was Paul not actually trying to attain what you consider impossible. Does a man seek for what is unattainable?

Salvation is something to walk in...not just hold as a status based on a past belief. The race of faith implies a certain point where we cross a line into victory.


Those who do not run to win...Paul stated as beating the air...

So what motivates us? Do we think we are really doing well thus inviting pride? Or do we see the standard of a full stature in Christ and are humbled by it?

Aviyah
Nov 16th 2013, 06:58 PM
A person with a broken leg who is healed by faith was now healed in the past. No amount of good works can heal a broken leg. But getting healed and being saved in the moment of an injury(to walk again) does not ensure a future glory in heaven.

I don't understand why Jesus said she was saved then if she wasn't saved. I also don't know why He bothered to forgive sins for people if their later sins would void His forgiveness. This also implies the Cross was only for people from that time period and before, and cannot possibly apply to any future sin.


You are still only seeing saved as a guarantee of future bliss in heaven.

So it's not at all possible to know if you are going to heaven? How many good works do I need to do per day/hour to ensure I'm "still" going to heaven? How many sins am I allowed before my salvation is revoked and how can I know that it has been revoked/restored?

Also, I have seen very little Scripture being posted within the last few pages. That would help.

episkopos
Nov 16th 2013, 06:59 PM
The Pharisees were doing very well according to the standard they had set for themselves. Of course if you presented them with a standard of perfection as God is perfect they would laugh you to scorn. They preferred the feeling that comes from knowing that they are doing so much better than those they see around them.

ChangedByHim
Nov 16th 2013, 07:04 PM
Is this what the bible teaches? Was Paul not actually trying to attain what you consider impossible. Does a man seek for what is unattainable?

Salvation is something to walk in...not just hold as a status based on a past belief. The race of faith implies a certain point where we cross a line into victory.


Those who do not run to win...Paul stated as beating the air...

So what motivates us? Do we think we are really doing well thus inviting pride? Or do we see the standard of a full stature in Christ and are humbled by it?
I have no idea what motivates you. My motivation every day is to love The Lord my God with all my heart, soul, mind and strength and to show His love to others.

At this point, you are simply repeating yourself. Have a good weekend.

episkopos
Nov 16th 2013, 07:05 PM
I don't understand why Jesus said she was saved then if she wasn't saved.

She was indeed saved...but not in an eternal guarantee sort of way that you are imposing on the text. You are interpretation salvation in a different way than Jesus was conveying it. She was forgiven her many sins because of the love she displayed towards our Lord. But what happened after that?


So it's not at all possible to know if you are going to heaven?


You are talking about the future...but are you walking in the kingdom of heaven right now?

Let the future be revealed as we partake of Christ today. Live by faith now...in hope of a better resurrection later.



How many good works do I need to do per day/hour to ensure I'm "still" going to heaven?


You want a soothsayer...?? someone to guarantee a certain finish? Do you presently gamble on sports events? Do you want a sure way of knowing a certain team will win?

It is not right to concern yourself over much about how you will be seen on judgment day. Rather work that out right now by holding nothing back from a full consecration to the Lord knowing that God sees all things.


How many sins am I allowed before my salvation is revoked and how can I know that it has been revoked/restored?

Fussing over the outcome of a race before it is over is neurotic. Just run to win....and trust God for the results.

episkopos
Nov 16th 2013, 07:09 PM
I have no idea what motivates you. My motivation every day is to love The Lord my God with all my heart, soul, mind and strength and to show His love to others.

At this point, you are simply repeating yourself. Have a good weekend.



That is a good motivation indeed! But we need to conform to the gospel standard in order to guard against the greater sins of pride and presumption. It would be a shame indeed to have overcome the sins of the flesh but then to fall into a greater condemnation from pride...so we need to watch over this...in each other.


Have a great week-end...it's Indian summer here..

Aviyah
Nov 16th 2013, 07:14 PM
She was indeed saved...but not in an eternal guarantee sort of way that you are imposing on the text.

If she was saved from hell, then any later chance of her being condemned to hell renders the promise Jesus gave to her completely false.


You are talking about the future...but are you walking in the kingdom of heaven right now?

If this is your standard, how much do I need to walk in the kingdom to ensure my salvation? How much can I deviate until I lose my salvation? How many sins until I can no longer be considered "walking in the kingdom?" One or more?


Do you presently gamble on sports events?

No, and God is not gambling with souls. When God makes a promise, you act like expecting that promise to happen is having ears tickled - as if we have to be constantly afraid that we MIGHT not make it into heaven. That's not a Biblical attitude. God said that if I have faith in Christ that He is God and was crucified and resurrected, that I am saved. I don't need to be discouraged or doubt this promise to have the motivation to do something as second-nature as helping the lost.


It is not right to concern yourself over much about how you will be seen on judgment day.

What???? I can't be concerned about going to hell because I committed one too many sins and if I had done just one more good work, I could have been saved? That's ridiculous.


Just run to win....and trust God for the results.

How can I run when you haven't explained the rules and there is no goal?

How many good works do I need to do per day/hour to ensure my salvation??? If this is your theory, then shouldn't you be able to answer this and back it up with Scripture???

episkopos
Nov 16th 2013, 07:25 PM
If she was saved from hell, then any later chance of her being condemned to hell renders the promise Jesus gave to her completely false.

What she did subsequently remains unknown...she was delivered from her sins and direction in life up until then......but afterwards we will have to wait to find out.


If this is your standard, how much do I need to walk in the kingdom to ensure my salvation? How much can I deviate until I lose my salvation? How many sins until I can no longer be considered "walking in the kingdom?" One or more?

Why do you care so much for your own life? Why are you looking for a standard that is below His? God is merciful....but he/she who seeks to save their life will lose it. The way to be pleasing to God in an eternal way is to forsake all for Him. Then we can have a living hope that we will be well received. But let not he/she hope for the same outcome who holds things back as forsakes them.




No, and God is not gambling with souls. When God makes a promise, you act like expecting that promise to happen is having ears tickled - as if we have to be constantly afraid that we MIGHT not make it into heaven. That's not a Biblical attitude.

The fear of the Lord is indeed very biblical. Paul was afraid of not making the grade (1 Cor. 9). It is healthy to not know our destiny...otherwise we fall asleep or we become prideful. We are just human after all! :) God has formulated the gospel in a way to help us make the journey to Him as successful as possible while still remaining a non respecter of persons.


What???? I can't be concerned about going to hell because I committed one too many sins and if I had done just one more good work, I could have been saved? That's ridiculous.



Live in such a way that God would be sorry to lose you... ;) Live to please your King.


How can I run when you haven't explained the rules and there is no goal?


The goal right now is to walk in as close a proximity to God as your present faith will allow. If you do this then your faith will increase...from faith to faith. Draw near to Him and He will draw near to you.


How many good works do I need to do per day/hour to ensure my salvation??? If this is your theory, then shouldn't you be able to answer this and back it up with Scripture???

God looks on your heart and your attitude. It is not about how many good deeds you do...but how you did what you did..


Imagine a prize for the humblest person on earth....would the contestants really care who won?

Neanias
Nov 16th 2013, 07:29 PM
Thanks for the openness. And as you previously expressed sadness for me, I am truly sorry that you feel that you are not in Christ. God bless you brother.

Seeing my own state for what it truly is and understanding the height of the high calling in Christ Jesus is necessary.

If the tone of one of my previous posts was condescending, I am sorry, it was not the right attitude.

Nonetheless, the standard is to truly be in him, walking as he walked, and this is what I am after. We can consider ourselves in Him all day long, but if it so it must align with the biblical witness: he who says he is in Him ought to walk as he walked.

Aviyah
Nov 16th 2013, 08:04 PM
Why do you care so much for your own life?

I don't want to go to hell... especially not for a dumb reason.


Live in such a way that God would be sorry to lose you... ;)

This right here is why your interpretation is in error. You are under the impression that we can earn favor from God. God loved us while we were still sinners (Ro. 5:8), I don't think you can earn more love than that.


It is not about how many good deeds you do...but how you did what you did..

Okay, so if I do a REALLY REALLY good deed, how many sins does that make up for?

Noeb
Nov 16th 2013, 08:33 PM
And Paul sought to win Christ with all his might. But Paul must have been very far behind us modern Christians who just leave everything for Jesus to do on His own....The word is 'gain'.....gain Christ. I'd say Paul had Christ the hope of glory in him, wouldn't you? He knew Him did he not? He shared in His sufferings, did he not? He physically died daily, did he not?

ESV - Php 3:8 Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith-- that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death,

JFB - win — Translate, to accord with the translation, Phi_3:7, “gain Christ.” A man cannot make other things his “gain” or chief confidence, and at the same time “gain Christ.” He who loses all things, and even himself, on account of Christ, gains Christ: Christ is His, and He is Christ’s (Son_2:16; Son_6:3; Luk_9:23, Luk_9:24; 1Co_3:23).

episkopos
Nov 16th 2013, 08:47 PM
I don't want to go to hell... especially not for a dumb reason.

Agreed! My people perish for lack of knowledge!


This right here is why your interpretation is in error. You are under the impression that we can earn favor from God. God loved us while we were still sinners (Ro. 5:8), I don't think you can earn more love than that.


We can indeed earn favour....although God has no favourites. That is why we earn it...




Okay, so if I do a REALLY REALLY good deed, how many sins does that make up for?


Only God knows....

Jake
Nov 16th 2013, 09:22 PM
Seeing my own state for what it truly is and understanding the height of the high calling in Christ Jesus is necessary.

If the tone of one of my previous posts was condescending, I am sorry, it was not the right attitude.

Nonetheless, the standard is to truly be in him, walking as he walked, and this is what I am after. We can consider ourselves in Him all day long, but if it so it must align with the biblical witness: he who says he is in Him ought to walk as he walked.

There also comes a point in time when we look outside of ourselves and do what He calls us to do instead of obsessing about 'perfection' and obsessing about self. We are His Body and He has works prepared for us to do, that is where real transformation occurs, when we are working alongside with the rest of His Body, fitted in and working together as one.

It's pretty difficult to conform to Him to do any work in us, if all we're doing is worrying about how we save ourselves, perfect ourselves and self all together. As much as you, epi and dot want it, it is impossible for you to transform yourselves. Ever heard of the expression 'let go and let God'?

Noeb
Nov 16th 2013, 09:37 PM
There also comes a point in time when we look outside of ourselves and do what He calls us to do instead of obsessing about 'perfection' and obsessing about self. We are His Body and He has works prepared for us to do, that is where real transformation occurs, when we are working alongside with the rest of His Body, fitted in and working together as one.

It's pretty difficult to conform to Him to do any work in us, if all we're doing is worrying about how we save ourselves, perfect ourselves and self all together. As much as you, epi and dot want it, it is impossible for you to transform yourselves. Ever heard of the expression 'let go and let God'?It's an easy trap, turning Christianity into being about 'self', instead of others. It only takes a few verses out of context.

Jake
Nov 16th 2013, 09:45 PM
It's an easy trap, turning Christianity into being about 'self', instead of others. It only takes a few verses out of context.

No doubt.

The repetition is deafening.

Aviyah
Nov 16th 2013, 11:07 PM
We can indeed earn favour....

Okay, I'll need Scripture for this.


Only God knows....

Only God can know if we are saved?

Slug1
Nov 16th 2013, 11:19 PM
Where is the Holy Spirit then within the heart of a believer?Well, I will say, actively in control when the person submits and is obedient to all promptings that the Holy Spirit gives to the person (to include empowerment when needed). But when the person will not submit, then the Holy Spirit waits and doesn't say anything to them or doesn't do anything with the person, when a person will not be obedient.

episkopos
Nov 17th 2013, 01:07 AM
Okay, I'll need Scripture for this.


Luk_1:30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
Act_7:46 Who found favour before God, and desired to find a tabernacle for the God of Jacob.

Gen_18:3 And said, My Lord, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant:

Num_11:11 And Moses said unto the LORD, Wherefore hast thou afflicted thy servant? and wherefore have I not found favour in thy sight, that thou layest the burden of all this people upon me?


Only God can know if we are saved?

Only God knows if we will be saved in the way we think of what salvation is.

ewq1938
Nov 17th 2013, 01:18 AM
Of course it applies.

Now answer my question!


Can God forgive sins after death?





Then I guess that 1 Corinthians 3 does not apply from your point of view?

9 For we are God's fellow workers. You are God's field, God's building.
10 According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and someone else is building upon it. Let each one take care how he builds upon it.
11 For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw---
13 each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done.
14 If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward.
15 If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

Aviyah
Nov 17th 2013, 01:43 AM
Luk_1:30 Act_7:46 Gen_18:3 Num_11:11

So if favor is to be taken the way you say it should be, then the only logical conclusion is that there are some who are most favorable (favorites).


Only God knows if we will be saved in the way we think of what salvation is.

I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. (1 John 5:13)

episkopos
Nov 17th 2013, 01:46 AM
So if favor is to be taken the way you say it should be, then the only logical conclusion is that there are some who are most favorable (favorites).

Not favourites according to a prejudice or taste...but according to humility and brokenness.


I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. (1 John 5:13)

We know the life of Christ is an eternal one as we experience that life. It is timeless.

Aviyah
Nov 17th 2013, 02:42 AM
Not favourites according to a prejudice or taste...but according to humility and brokenness.

That's still favorites. I wonder who God's least favorite follower is?


We know the life of Christ is an eternal one as we experience that life. It is timeless.

That's not what the verse says though, it says we can know we have eternal life. You said only God knows that.

Neanias
Nov 17th 2013, 04:03 AM
Whenever the standard of a life lived wholly in Christ Jesus is upheld, where there is actually a provision to walk as he walked, people love to say 'stop obsessing about perfection' or 'stop obsessing about yourself'.

This can only stem from a lack of understanding of what is being presented. The walk in Christ requires a complete denial of self, and requires that one would lose his life to be found in Him. This is not about our perfection, rather it is about oneness with the Master who bought us. This is about forsaking all things to be found in Him, walking in newness of life. Perfection is simply the fruit of such a life, perfection meaning to walk as he walked and doing the works of the Father. If our motive is right and we understand the purpose of such a calling right, we do not desire this so we can pump up our perfection, but because we desire to be one with him, and have fellowship with him, in the life of his resurrection and in his sufferings also, and we desire to obey the one who bought us with a price, because it is what we must do, as servants.

I would say this stems from the same spirit which screams 'works, works!' the moment obedience is spoken of as something that is necessary for us to walk in.

Is this an attitude that seeks to better understand what we are called to and lay down our lives to go there? Or is this an attitude which seeks to save it's own life? Does this stem from the heart of a servant who seeks to better serve his Master? Or the heart of a smug son who despises his Father's instruction because he desires to do his own thing? :hmm: Let the reader discern!

If we loved our Master, we would rejoice at the thought that he has provided a way to perfectly please Him, and receive power from Him to fully do what he commands. The fact that we fall short serves to further break us and hopefully bring us to a place of full surrender so we are actually fit vessels to receive such life.

We are called to run the race, and fight the good fight of faith. We are not idle bystanders waiting for God to do his work, but the vessels who present themselves as living sacrifices so God can do his work through them, that is, if we decide to obey. Some try to blur the line between the two to be able to count themselves as those who receive a reward of God, but God cannot be fooled: each will reap what he has sown.

Neanias
Nov 17th 2013, 04:08 AM
Some also love to make this seem as a useless quest, and tell men to stop searching so hard after God, and start serving the people around you with what God has given you. We should always be loving and serving those around us with what we have... But what do we have of eternal value, unless we receive from the Lord?

This is why we first and foremost seek the Kingdom. We seek to receive from God first, and then we go to the world.

Otherwise we are just the blind leading the blind... So first we seek to be in Him, receiving his life, so that we actually have something to share. This is not looking inward, as some suggest, but it is looking upward. We look upward and then share to our fellow man what we have received. We are here to be vessels for God's use, we must be attentive to God first for this to be possible.

Jake
Nov 17th 2013, 04:26 AM
Whenever the standard of a life lived wholly in Christ Jesus, where there is actually a provision to walk as he walked, people love to say 'stop obsessing about perfection' or 'stop obsessing about yourself'.
No, people say it because you are obsessed with self and the concept of perfection.


This can only stem from a lack of understanding of what is being presented.
Once again, no, it stems from the fact that we are saved by grace through faith and you want to make it about you and your perfection, in this case, lack of.


The walk in Christ requires a complete denial of self, and requires that one would lose his life to be found in Him. This is not about our perfection, rather it is about oneness with the Master who bought us. This is about forsaking all things to be found in Him, walking in newness of life. Perfection is simply the fruit of such a life, perfection meaning to walk as he walked and doing the works of the Father. If our motive is right and we understand the purpose of such a calling right, we do not desire this so we can pump up our perfection, but because we desire to be one with him, and have fellowship with him, in the life of his resurrection and in his sufferings also, and we desire to obey the one who bought us with a price, because it is what we must do, as servants.
This is the problem, Neanias, we are already one with Christ. We are already parts of His Body, we are already in the heavenly places. If it weren't so, then we should all toss our Bibles our right now. We were bought with a price, it is no longer I but Christ living in me - why do you insist this is something that will happen in the future? We don't need to be perfect in order to do what God has called us to do - it is the journey that sanctifies us. If you're waiting to be perfect before you do His work, then you're doing it wrong.


I would say this stems from the same spirit which screams 'works, works!' the moment obedience is spoken of as something that is necessary for us to walk in.
No one here has said we don't have any works to do, nor that we should not obey. Far from it! You have been conditioned to believe this about other people, you have been told over and over again that this is what other people believe - and it's wrong. Just as people are indoctrinated, you are, as well, you are indoctrinated.






We are called to run the race, and fight the good fight of faith. We are not idle bystanders waiting for God to do his work, but the vessels who present themselves as living sacrifices so God can do his work through them, that is, if we decide to obey. Some try to blur the line between the two to be able to count themselves as those who receive a reward of God, but God cannot be fooled: each will reap what he has sown. I believe I'm the one who first stated we go and do the works God has prepared for us. We do this by stop focusing on self and self-perfection, or lack of, and just do the work. Which was the purpose of my initial post.

Aviyah
Nov 17th 2013, 04:33 AM
Basically it's a roundabout way of saying if you sin at all, your salvation is revoked. "Salvation is only for people who can stay as perfect as Christ for their entire lives."

Jake
Nov 17th 2013, 04:41 AM
Basically it's a roundabout way of saying if you sin at all, your salvation is revoked. "Salvation is only for people who can stay as perfect as Christ for their entire lives."

Guess so...

I didn't realize perfection is a prerequisite for receiving gifts to do good works either. :(

Noeb
Nov 17th 2013, 04:46 AM
Whenever the standard of a life lived wholly in Christ Jesus is upheld, where there is actually a provision to walk as he walked, people love to say 'stop obsessing about perfection' or 'stop obsessing about yourself'.It was not said because the standard of a holy life in Christ was upheld. Everyone here has held up the standard of a holy life in Christ.



This can only stem from a lack of understanding of what is being presented. The walk in Christ requires a complete denial of self, and requires that one would lose his life to be found in Him. This is not about our perfection, rather it is about oneness with the Master who bought us. This is about forsaking all things to be found in Him, walking in newness of life. Perfection is simply the fruit of such a life, perfection meaning to walk as he walked and doing the works of the Father. If our motive is right and we understand the purpose of such a calling right, we do not desire this so we can pump up our perfection, but because we desire to be one with him, and have fellowship with him, in the life of his resurrection and in his sufferings also, and we desire to obey the one who bought us with a price, because it is what we must do, as servants.Everyone here has expressed the same mind. Maybe if you produce some posts where people do not, we can better understand what it is you think you are fighting.



I would say this stems from the same spirit which screams 'works, works!' the moment obedience is spoken of as something that is necessary for us to walk in.Everyone here expresses the necessity for obedience in our walk.



Is this an attitude that seeks to better understand what we are called to and lay down our lives to go there? Or is this an attitude which seeks to save it's own life?What are you talking about? Again, we need some evidence of this attitude.



Does this stem from the heart of a servant who seeks to better serve his Master? Or the heart of a smug son who despises his Father's instruction because he desires to do his own thing? :hmm: Let the reader discern!The reader needs some evidence there's even a fight to be had. The wise do not beat the air.



If we loved our Master, we would rejoice at the thought that he has provided a way to perfectly please Him, and receive power from Him to fully do what he commands.Everyone here does. I've never seen anyone express displeasure in the cross here, have you?



We are called to run the race, and fight the good fight of faith. We are not idle bystanders waiting for God to do his work, but the vessels who present themselves as living sacrifices so God can do his work through them, that is, if we decide to obey. Some try to blur the line between the two to be able to count themselves as those who receive a reward of God, but God cannot be fooled: each will reap what he has sown.From what I've seen everyone agrees with this as well. What posts make you think otherwise?

parsonsmom
Nov 17th 2013, 04:58 AM
Greetings; The spirit of a born again believer is sealed to redemption; there is only one way it can be broken; that is the blaspheme of the Holy Spirit. The soul is a different subject.

Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest; lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience; For the word of God is living and powerful; and sharper than any two-edged sword; piercing even to the division of soul and spirit; and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts; and intents of the heart; And there is no creature hidden from His sight; but all things are naked; and open; to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account. Respectfully; Parsonsmom.

Noeb
Nov 17th 2013, 05:01 AM
Basically it's a roundabout way of saying if you sin at all, your salvation is revoked. "Salvation is only for people who can stay as perfect as Christ for their entire lives."actually their teaching goes like this.........

you have to be in Christ to not sin (saint), but if you sin you are no longer in Christ.....you're saved/righteous, but you are not a saint

the trick is, how do you get in Christ so you can be a saint?.....that's where work comes in. So you get in Christ and become a saint through works.

mailmandan
Nov 17th 2013, 11:38 AM
actually their teaching goes like this.........

you have to be in Christ to not sin (saint), but if you sin you are no longer in Christ.....you're saved/righteous, but you are not a saint

the trick is, how do you get in Christ so you can be a saint?.....that's where work comes in. So you get in Christ and become a saint through works.

Their very exclusive "sinless perfection" doctrine is works based although it's wrapped it the cloth of "IN Christ". http://mob476.photobucket.com/albums/rr130/luke2337/flag_red.gif?t=1242189429Here are further statements made from that camp:

If we have never stopped sinning then we don't yet know the Lord.

We would still be in our sins because we would be NOT walking as Jesus walked WITHOUT sin.

Salvation is IN Christ. There is no other path that leaves out being EXACTLY as He is.

Abiding in Christ means to be where Jesus is and walk the same way as He did without sin....these are given glory and will rule with Christ.

The righteous are scarcely saved. The saints are abundantly saved.

episkopos
Nov 17th 2013, 02:28 PM
That's still favorites. I wonder who God's least favorite follower is?



The one who behaves the worst.


That's not what the verse says though, it says we can know we have eternal life. You said only God knows that.

Only God knows how we will do at judgment. We can walk in eternal life right now.

episkopos
Nov 17th 2013, 02:33 PM
Basically it's a roundabout way of saying if you sin at all, your salvation is revoked. "Salvation is only for people who can stay as perfect as Christ for their entire lives."

Not even close! We can choose to walk in Christ's salvation or else indulge in what the world has to offer. Do you espouse a "saved" pursuer of sin ? A sinful saint? An obnoxious lover of God?


It is not how we begin the race that counts....but how or if we finish.

The final salvation is based on our performance in Christ AND God's mercy. But He gives grace to the humble...not the arrogant ones who claim so much for themselves.

episkopos
Nov 17th 2013, 02:36 PM
Their very exclusive "sinless perfection" doctrine is works based although it's wrapped it the cloth of "IN Christ". http://mob476.photobucket.com/albums/rr130/luke2337/flag_red.gif?t=1242189429Here are further statements made from that camp:

If we have never stopped sinning then we don't yet know the Lord.

We would still be in our sins because we would be NOT walking as Jesus walked WITHOUT sin.

Salvation is IN Christ. There is no other path that leaves out being EXACTLY as He is.

Abiding in Christ means to be where Jesus is and walk the same way as He did without sin....these are given glory and will rule with Christ.

The righteous are scarcely saved. The saints are abundantly saved.

All of that is true....but you are misunderstanding the conclusion of the matter. A humble man is justified NOT because he walked in victory....but because he realizes that he didn't and esteems others as greater than himself. A humble attitude God will not turn away. I think Christians should learn this.


Humility only seems like hard work to the proud. We are ALL saved by God's mercy. What is our attitude like?

episkopos
Nov 17th 2013, 02:48 PM
I don't think many realize that the whole "saved" status doctrine is Pharisaical in nature. It offers it's adherents all manners of salvation and glory if they will just claim righteousness for themselves. Satan offered Jesus the whole world if He would just bow down to worship him. Jesus refused. You shall obey God!


But many modern Christians do not have this wisdom. They will justify themselves for a song. They will ignore plain commands and warnings for a misreading of other verses that seem to justify them. It would seem that if we are looking for humility we would have to go to a different religion. So the enemy has infiltrated the church by promising the rewards of holiness to carnal men.

Now back to the Pharisees. They believed the scriptures justified them by their adherence to the law and because they were descendants of Abraham. If you dared to question that they hated you. Such was their arrogance. They claimed to see when they were actually blind...so condemnation was on them.

The modern Pharisees operate the same way but have just exchanged the law for belief and Abraham for Jesus. But Jesus warned the Pharisees that Abraham himself would rise up and condemn them.


Now have we ever read Jesus doing the same to those who called Him Lord?


Our righteousness must exceed that of the Pharisees. In other words we must operate in MORE humility than they did. We must admit we are blind...unless we are walking in the very light of God. THEN and only then can we make the claims that carnal men enjoy making so much.

Neanias
Nov 18th 2013, 07:05 AM
It is interesting to see how the very people who hate the idea of works and the necessity of running the race do so because they say that it leads to pride, and the bringing up of self, and yet they are the most smug people as to their status with God. Nothing will convince such men that they are not headed for glory, and assured of if - that is, if they don't believe they are already glorified - and yet they quickly point to any who call to obey and enter the new life in Christ that such a man is making this all about his obedience and self. This man is pointing to God, and the necessity of obeying him, and the power available in him to do so. He gives glory to God, because he has made a way, but men despise the way, and do not want to walk in it.

I would like to dispel this notion: it is not by doing nothing that we are humble. Rather, by doing nothing and considering ourselves to have done everything we need, we consider ourselves to have attained, which leads many to a great spiritual pride. The Pharisees read the scriptures, figured out what seemed to their blind eyes to be what needed to be done, did it, and then justified themselves in it. In this they had great pride: with such ease they had obeyed the commands and forced God to receive them. So Christians today have read the New Testament, figured out what they thought was the standard, mentally believing, and now consider that they are accepted. With such ease they have done this, and now, none can condemn them. But an honest man sees the spiritual pride that stems from this.

Here is how the servant of the most high is humbled: Jesus tells him, for example, 'Come out of the boat', and the disciple does so in faith. He walks on water, not by his power, but God's. But soon he starts to sink, and the disciple is humbled by his own failure. To know that we do not have to do anything does not make a man humble, to be called to do something however and fail because of one's own lack does. So the humility of the Christian is not rooted in his doing nothing, but in his attempt to obey.

Further he learns through his failure that he can do nothing. What that means is that absolutely nothing of his own power can make him float on water, there is no power or life in him to obey that comes from himself. But why does he obey nonetheless? Because he is called to, and when his faith and his humility look to God in this, God enables the man to do what by his own power he cannot. Once this man is so humbled, knows (1) there is nothing good in himself and he can do nothing and (2) that he can do all things commanded him of God through Christ who strengthens him, he is ready to obey and walk in the power and life of the resurrected Christ. He has acquired the humility necessary to maintain such a walk, and faith necessary to enter it.

Neanias
Nov 18th 2013, 07:16 AM
The confusion is simple. God commands 'Do not walk by your own power', and men stop at 'Do not walk'. But the gospel is not a calling to idleness, but to the power of a new life which we enter in by faith. 'Do not walk by your own power, but enter my rest and walk by my power'. This is the burden that is light: it is not our strength; all we must do is say 'Yes, Lord', and he enables and empowers us. But this 'Yes' must be wholehearted and rooted in faith, let your yes be yes. To do so is to yield completely and unequivocally to the Lord and his call to obey him and be one with him. This is how by faith we have access to grace, which is the power to do the works of God, and so through this we have salvation today from the old life, and can walk in the new. Peter walking on water is a perfect image of 'by grace through faith': by the grace (power) of God, Peter walked on water, a grace which he entered through his faith. His faith meant obedience, even in things impossible.

We have created a faith that is nothing more than mental assent to a doctrine. A far cry from the faith of the apostles who believed God could do all things, including conforming them to His Son.

Men have used the fact that we cannot do it in our strength to say we must not do it at all. But this destroys the very purpose of the gospel: that we would by faith enter his strength, and thus by faith be obedient.

1 Corinthians 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

Is the grace or perceived grace of God that you have received in vain? Has it brought no eternal fruit? Or do you like Paul labour, that is, allow Jesus to be Lord (ruler) in your life and his grace to be used for you to do the works of the Father?

It is a question we will all have to answer, and we will all have to answer for the grace given us. To whom more is given... More is required! May we be worthy of our calling!

Longsufferer
Nov 18th 2013, 07:36 AM
For though he was crucified through weakness, yet he liveth by the power of God. For we also are weak in him, but we shall live with him by the power of God toward you. Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
(2 Corinthians 13:4-5)
Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them, Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
(Luke 13:23-24)
For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
(Matthew 16:27)

Lest we forget, to strive is a work, it is a very hard effort. But if we were to say we must do nothing, then we make Him a liar! The Lord Jesus Christ is telling us this plain and clear that we must "strive" to enter, or else we cannot, its that simple. As for us, we ought to stop thinking that we can speak over Him looking for a reason to do nothing; in the end he has the final Word, not us.

Neanias
Nov 18th 2013, 08:00 AM
For though he was crucified through weakness, yet he liveth by the power of God. For we also are weak in him, but we shall live with him by the power of God toward you. Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
(2 Corinthians 13:4-5)
Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them, Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
(Luke 13:23-24)
For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
(Matthew 16:27)

Lest we forget, to strive is a work, it is a very hard effort. But if we were to say we must do nothing, then we make Him a liar! The Lord Jesus Christ is telling us this plain and clear that we must "strive" to enter, or else we cannot, its that simple. As for us, we ought to stop thinking that we can speak over Him looking for a reason to do nothing; in the end he has the final Word, not us.

Amen! :) Very well said!

We have been apprehended for a purpose: the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. We must now strive to apprehend that for which we have been apprehended.

God pursues man for the very purpose that man would pursue God. Men see God's loving pursuit of man, and think that God's love makes him weak, and they can take advantage of him, doing their own deeds but still receiving his love. This is what the modern doctrine of easy believism is based on. Do not be fooled! God so loved the world that he sent his only son, so that whoever believes could share in his life. Through him we have access to this, but those who despise the sacrifice of God, and do not return love for his love, and pursuit of Him for his pursuit of ourselves do not freely receive the reward of such a life. The life is available to us, if we chose not to share in it so that we may remain in our sins, our lips can confess his name all day long, but we are trampling his blood and counting it as a small thing.

mailmandan
Nov 18th 2013, 11:36 AM
The final salvation is based on our performance in Christ AND God's mercy.

Salvation is based on "our performance"? What standard of performance must we accomplish and add to Christ's finished work of redemption in order to help Him save us? Even wrapped in the cloth of in Christ it's still "our performance" (works). Titus 3:5 - not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit.

The final salvation is not based on our performance/works of righteousness which we have done (it's based on our faith in Christ) and it is according to His mercy He saved us. From beginning to end, salvation is by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8,9 1 Peter 1:9) and is not according to works. But according to Jesus --- His sufficient and complete sacrifice. Sufficient and complete. Nothing more to be added to what Jesus did.

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen (Hebrews 11:1). Faith is not simply defined as works of righteousness/works of obedience. Works are the FRUIT of faith, not the essence of faith.

episkopos
Nov 18th 2013, 01:38 PM
Salvation is based on "our performance"? What standard of performance must we accomplish and add to Christ's finished work of redemption in order to help Him save us? Even wrapped in the cloth of in Christ it's still "our performance" (works). Titus 3:5 - not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit.


We are first saved by the sheer mercy of God who cleanses us from all sin. But after that we do not go into a cryogenic state that preserves us until judgment. Rather He sees what will do....if we will continue in obedience, The purpose is to expand the kingdom of God and work WITH God to change the world. And this for HIS glory.

We are saved to work for the Lord as His servants. He gives us His strength to do so.

We will ALL be judged by our performance (deeds, works).






The final salvation is not based on our performance/works of righteousness which we have done (it's based on our faith in Christ) and it is according to His mercy He saved us.

Faith without a faithful performance afterwards is dead.


From beginning to end, salvation is by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8,9 1 Peter 1:9) and is not according to works. But according to Jesus --- His sufficient and complete sacrifice. Sufficient and complete. Nothing more to be added to what Jesus did.


It is not by a past faith and a past grace....




Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen (Hebrews 11:1). Faith is not simply defined as works of righteousness/works of obedience. Works are the FRUIT of faith, not the essence of faith.

We do well to continue in faith steadfast till the end.

ewq1938
Nov 19th 2013, 12:56 AM
No one commented on these, not surprisingly so I will repost:


2Co_5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.


Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

We are judged according to our works.

Bad works? Hell.

Good works? Eternity/Heaven.

We are saved by grace, but do not think our works aren't looked closely at! We are judged according to our works!

Bro Berryl
Nov 19th 2013, 01:05 AM
We are judged according to our works.

Bad works? Hell.

Good works? Eternity/Heaven.

We are saved by grace, but do not think our works aren't looked closely at! We are judged according to our works!

I apologize, I don't have time to read all of the posts on this subject but perhaps if someone has been following it they could tell me if 1 Corinthians 3:12-15 has been discussed in relationship to our works?

ewq1938
Nov 19th 2013, 01:37 AM
I apologize, I don't have time to read all of the posts on this subject but perhaps if someone has been following it they could tell me if 1 Corinthians 3:12-15 has been discussed in relationship to our works?

I don't recall but let's start with the verses I posted then we can move to the one you mention.

divaD
Nov 19th 2013, 02:04 AM
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

We are judged according to our works.

Bad works? Hell.

Good works? Eternity/Heaven.

We are saved by grace, but do not think our works aren't looked closely at! We are judged according to our works!

As far as the above judgment goes, the chronology shows according to other Scriptures, the following. The dead in Christ rise first, then we which are alive and remain, meet them in the air, and that happens in a twinkling of an eye. Which then means one is physically immortal from that point on, never to be dead or considered dead again. The above passage, Rev 20:12, it clearly says that John saw the dead, not the living as well. And besides, speaking again chronologically, when Jesus returns He then has to deal with the beast and it's armies in Rev 19, and the fact the just saints would already be immortal at this point, and that logically, the GWT judgment can't take place before the beast and it's armies are dealt with first, then the GWT judgment is not the same judgment as is the one where we all must stand at the judgment seat of Christ. That is a different judgment that has to do with rewards and such in regards to the saints.

ewq1938
Nov 19th 2013, 02:08 AM
As far as the above judgment goes, the chronology shows according to other Scriptures, the following. The dead in Christ rise first, then we which are alive and remain, meet them in the air, and that happens in a twinkling of an eye. Which then means one is physically immortal from that point on, never to be dead or considered dead again. The above passage, Rev 20:12, it clearly says that John saw the dead, not the living as well. And besides, speaking again chronologically, when Jesus returns He then has to deal with the beast and it's armies in Rev 19, and the fact the just saints would already be immortal at this point, and that logically, the GWT judgment can't take place before the beast and it's armies are dealt with first, then the GWT judgment is not the same judgment as is the one where we all must stand at the judgment seat of Christ. That is a different judgment that has to do with rewards and such in regards to the saints.

I don't agree. Rev 20 shows all being judged, even those written in the book of life which would be those who have salvation. I believe there is a judgement when Christ returns but it is not the time when salvation or death is determined.

divaD
Nov 19th 2013, 02:24 AM
I don't agree. Rev 20 shows all being judged, even those written in the book of life which would be those who have salvation. I believe there is a judgement when Christ returns but it is not the time when salvation or death is determined.


You don't agree? Who would have ever guessed it? :)

Do you then feel physically immortal and dead mean the same thing? It would have to be meaning the same thing if physically immortal saints are at the GWT judgment in Rev 20.

Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

This passage DOES NOT SAY...And I saw the dead AND PHYSICALLY IMMORTAL SAINTS, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead AND PHYSICALLY IMMORTAL SAINTS were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead AND PHYSICALLY IMMORTAL SAINTS which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead AND PHYSICALLY IMMORTAL SAINTS which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

That renders the passage as nothing but total nonsense when understood like that. Physically immortal folks are not of the dead, they are of the living. John sees the dead, not the living. The only way you could be correct is to show how the GWT judgment occurs before Christ returns. Because it would have to in order for saints to be there, since it would have to be before they become physically immortal, since John is seeing nothing but the dead here.

ewq1938
Nov 19th 2013, 02:27 AM
You aren't dealing with the part of the verse that disproves you:

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Here all are referred to as the dead.

No one is "physically immortal" until after this last judgment.



You don't agree? Who would have ever guessed it? :)

Do you then feel physically immortal and dead mean the same thing? It would have to be meaning the same thing if physically immortal saints are at the GWT judgment in Rev 20.

Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

This passage DOES NOT SAY...And I saw the dead AND PHYSICALLY IMMORTAL SAINTS, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead AND PHYSICALLY IMMORTAL SAINTS were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead AND PHYSICALLY IMMORTAL SAINTS which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead AND PHYSICALLY IMMORTAL SAINTS which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

That renders the passage as nothing but total nonsense when understood like that. Physically immortal folks are not of the dead, they are of the living. John sees the dead, not the living. The only way you could be correct is to show how the GWT judgment occurs before Christ returns. Because it would have to in order for saints to be there, since it would have to be before they become physically immortal, since John is seeing nothing but the dead here.

divaD
Nov 19th 2013, 02:41 AM
You aren't dealing with the part of the verse that disproves you:

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Here all are referred to as the dead.

No one is "physically immortal" until after this last judgment.

And you aren't dealing with Revelation chapter 19 which disproves you. And as far as the book of life at this judgment, it could simply be a book that has all names recorded in it that have eternal life, and that these here, their names are not found written within.

ewq1938
Nov 19th 2013, 03:40 AM
And as far as the book of life at this judgment, it could simply be a book that has all names recorded in it that have eternal life, and that these here, their names are not found written within.

"and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works"

This proves people written in the book of life are ALSO BEING JUDGED at this time.

Nothing in Rev 19 contradicts this.


Here is the whole chapter, please show us where it says people in the book of life aren't being judged the same day the wicked are:


Rev 19:1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
Rev 19:2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.
Rev 19:3 And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.
Rev 19:4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.
Rev 19:5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.
Rev 19:6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
Rev 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
Rev 19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
Rev 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
Rev 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
Rev 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Rev 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

ewq1938
Nov 19th 2013, 03:43 AM
Eternal life only comes in the next world, not this one. What we have NOW is the PROMISE.


Titus 3:6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
Titus 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

They did NOT have eternal life at the time of this writing! They were HEIRS, WAITING WITH HOPE to inherit eternal life which is received in the WORLD TO COME which means not this world, not this life but the next...the future!

ewq1938
Nov 19th 2013, 03:50 AM
More that ALL are judged in REV 20 not just the wicked:

1 Peter 1:17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:


Here Peter also addresses that time when the Father judges "according to every man's work"...that's the great white throne judgement day, the last day. Not it says, every man, not just the bad ones.

Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Here Jesus is distinct from the other one called "God the Judge of all".

Boo
Nov 19th 2013, 10:43 AM
I apologize, I don't have time to read all of the posts on this subject but perhaps if someone has been following it they could tell me if 1 Corinthians 3:12-15 has been discussed in relationship to our works?

No, the conversation flew right past it. Perhaps it was because of who brought it up?

mailmandan
Nov 19th 2013, 12:08 PM
We are first saved by the sheer mercy of God who cleanses us from all sin.

So only at first? Initially according to His mercy (Titus 3:5), but in the end according to something else? For by grace we have been saved through faith "initially" but ultimately it's the end of our "performance - did it measure up and get a passing grade" (not our faith) the salvation of our souls? (1 Peter 1:9)


But after that we do not go into a cryogenic state that preserves us until judgment.

We are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time (1 Peter 1:5). To those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ (Jude 1:1). Our faith, His preserving. For the Lord loves justice, And does not forsake His saints; They are preserved forever, But the descendants of the wicked shall be cut off (Psalm 37:28).


Rather He sees what will do....if we will continue in obedience

If we continue in faith. Obedience is a manifestation of our faith.


The purpose is to expand the kingdom of God and work WITH God to change the world. And this for HIS glory. We are saved to work for the Lord as His servants. He gives us His strength to do so.

This is what we are saved FOR not by (Ephesians 2:10). We could never work hard enough for the Lord as His servants to earn our salvation.


We will ALL be judged by our performance (deeds, works).

To determine what for believers? Salvation or rewards? (1 Corinthians 3:13-15) Is it the good performance (deeds, works) that actually save us or the bad performance (deeds, works) that actually condemn us or does the type of performance (deeds, works) expose whether our heart WAS saved, or NOT?


Faith without a faithful performance afterwards is dead.

No faithful performance at all is a dead faith. Faith without works is dead (James 2:14-20). A living faith manifests itself in a faithful performance, yet not all believers are equally fruitful.


It is not by a past faith and a past grace....

Who said this faith and grace are merely in the past and no longer exist at the end?


We do well to continue in faith steadfast till the end.

Saving faith is a faith that continues to the end and is not some shallow temporary faith that has no root and produces no fruit.

episkopos
Nov 19th 2013, 02:12 PM
So only at first? Initially according to His mercy (Titus 3:5), but in the end according to something else? For by grace we have been saved through faith "initially" but ultimately it's the end of our "performance - did it measure up and get a passing grade" (not our faith) the salvation of our souls? (1 Peter 1:9)

We are not just being saved in order to be saved. Do you hire a worker so you can say you hired someone? Or do you hire someone for a PURPOSE. Do you know what that purpose is?





If we continue in faith. Obedience is a manifestation of our faith.

Obedience is a manifestation of our faithfulness.


This is what we are saved FOR not by (Ephesians 2:10). We could never work hard enough for the Lord as His servants to earn our salvation.

Semantics. The purpose is very important. It is the purpose.




To determine what for believers? Salvation or rewards? (1 Corinthians 3:13-15) Is it the good performance (deeds, works) that actually save us or the bad performance (deeds, works) that actually condemn us or does the type of performance (deeds, works) expose whether our heart WAS saved, or NOT?



A person can run on a leg that was previously broken. Why is what happened in the past so important to you?


No faithful performance at all is a dead faith. Faith without works is dead (James 2:14-20). A living faith manifests itself in a faithful performance, yet not all believers are equally fruitful.

Are you arguing my case? ;)


Who said this faith and grace are merely in the past and no longer exist at the end?


I claim an ongoing faithfulness completes what God began in us....Faith and grace that are past are in the past. Why is the past so important?




Saving faith is a faith that continues to the end and is not some shallow temporary faith that has no root and produces no fruit.

Exactly!


Jas 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

episkopos
Nov 19th 2013, 02:14 PM
Eternal life only comes in the next world, not this one. What we have NOW is the PROMISE.


Titus 3:6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
Titus 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

They did NOT have eternal life at the time of this writing! They were HEIRS, WAITING WITH HOPE to inherit eternal life which is received in the WORLD TO COME which means not this world, not this life but the next...the future!

Exactly! :)............

ewq1938
Nov 20th 2013, 01:12 AM
Exactly! :)............

The "salvation now" is closely related to the "Once saved always saved". Neither taught in scripture.

mailmandan
Nov 20th 2013, 11:54 AM
The "salvation now" is closely related to the "Once saved always saved". Neither taught in scripture.

John 5:24 - Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. Ephesians 2:8 - For by grace you have been saved through faith.. If we don't have salvation now, then how can we lose something that we don't yet have?


Eternal life only comes in the next world, not this one. What we have NOW is the PROMISE.

So what did John mean by has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life?


Titus 3:6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
Titus 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

They did NOT have eternal life at the time of this writing! They were HEIRS, WAITING WITH HOPE to inherit eternal life which is received in the WORLD TO COME which means not this world, not this life but the next...the future!

So how do you harmonize John 5:24 with Titus 3:7? What kind of life do we have NOW? (has everlasting life, has passed from death into life) and what kind of life are we waiting to inherit in the FUTURE? (waiting with hope to inherit eternal life)

The way to understand Titus 3:7 is to recognize that in Scripture, "hope" is not the same thing that we think of as "hope." The Greek word for "hope" (Greek: elpis) is a certain or confident expectation, not a "I wish and dream it might possibly come true."

episkopos
Nov 20th 2013, 02:13 PM
John 5:24 - Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. Ephesians 2:8 - For by grace you have been saved through faith.. If we don't have salvation now, then how can we lose something that we don't yet have?



The grace of God is a spiritual faculty to overcome sin now. So the eternal life is a kind of life.


So what did John mean by has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life?

That means he will not be condemned with the world. He will be judged by Christ Himself. A person who enters INTO Christ walks as Jesus walked...because that one is living from Life Himself. Jesus IS the life. So the verse is about Jesus not about the person getting a carte blanche.


So how do you harmonize John 5:24 with Titus 3:7? What kind of life do we have NOW? (has everlasting life, has passed from death into life) and what kind of life are we waiting to inherit in the FUTURE? (waiting with hope to inherit eternal life)



Faithfulness must be maintained to continue to receive life. The eternal life is ALWAYS in the present. But one cannot know what the future holds....that is why we hope...




The way to understand Titus 3:7 is to recognize that in Scripture, "hope" is not the same thing that we think of as "hope." The Greek word for "hope" (Greek: elpis) is a certain or confident expectation, not a "I wish and dream it might possibly come true."


We know of what we are hoping for. Yet, we cannot be certain... One should not boast who is running the race (OR HAS YET TO RUN) as he who is finishing the race.

Pbminimum
Nov 20th 2013, 02:30 PM
EPI, mailman gave you rock solid scripture to back up the fact that you can be saved and know it. All I see in response is your opinion.

divaD
Nov 20th 2013, 05:00 PM
"and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works"

This proves people written in the book of life are ALSO BEING JUDGED at this time.

Nothing in Rev 19 contradicts this.


Here is the whole chapter, please show us where it says people in the book of life aren't being judged the same day the wicked are:


Rev 19:1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
Rev 19:2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.
Rev 19:3 And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.
Rev 19:4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.
Rev 19:5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.
Rev 19:6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
Rev 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
Rev 19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
Rev 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
Rev 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
Rev 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Rev 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

If chronology means very little to you, then I would simply be wasting my time proving my point, since the way I tend to look at things, chronology shows what is logical, and what is not logical. Without chronology of some kind, one can simply say Jesus was physically resurrected before He even died. Or that the 2nd coming happens before the first coming..so on and so on. And since no one would dare do that with the above, then why don't they continue using chronology to determine the truth about other Scriptures as well?

ewq1938
Nov 21st 2013, 01:39 AM
It's just a figure of speech. Being that so many other scriptures speak of eternal life coming in the next world and that we are waiting for it, then you are simply misunderstanding John 5:24. It's the same as being given a raise, yet you don't actually get that extra money until payday.



John 5:24 - Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. Ephesians 2:8 - For by grace you have been saved through faith.. If we don't have salvation now, then how can we lose something that we don't yet have?



So what did John mean by has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life?



So how do you harmonize John 5:24 with Titus 3:7? What kind of life do we have NOW? (has everlasting life, has passed from death into life) and what kind of life are we waiting to inherit in the FUTURE? (waiting with hope to inherit eternal life)

The way to understand Titus 3:7 is to recognize that in Scripture, "hope" is not the same thing that we think of as "hope." The Greek word for "hope" (Greek: elpis) is a certain or confident expectation, not a "I wish and dream it might possibly come true."

episkopos
Nov 21st 2013, 03:41 AM
EPI, mailman gave you rock solid scripture to back up the fact that you can be saved and know it. All I see in response is your opinion.

Of course you can know you are saved ....in the moment. When you walk in the power of God and His miraculous life you KNOW you are walking in an abundant salvation. But we are still changeable and time reveals many things about us...

ewq1938
Nov 21st 2013, 04:06 AM
Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.


People walking on the path towards life ARE ON THEIR WAY but haven't arrived there yet! The salvation NOW concept is based on misunderstanding a couple scriptures and ignoring all the others which show salvation is something we strive towards to receive.

Pbminimum
Nov 21st 2013, 12:50 PM
Of course you can know you are saved ....in the moment. When you walk in the power of God and His miraculous life you KNOW you are walking in an abundant salvation. But we are still changeable and time reveals many things about us...
If God is in the house , you know it. Also, if He used to be in the house, then left, you'd know that too. A Christian can be confident in his salvation because of what Jesus did, not what they have done.

Slug1
Nov 21st 2013, 01:07 PM
Of course you can know you are saved ....in the moment. When you walk in the power of God and His miraculous life you KNOW you are walking in an abundant salvation. But we are still changeable and time reveals many things about us...What you just described is like those periods of time when a person is placed in the desert or in a struggle. Epi... if you were alive during the time of Job, I truly feel you'd be one of the 3 or even that 4th person against Job the whole time he was struggling.

shepherdsword
Nov 21st 2013, 01:21 PM
If chronology means very little to you, then I would simply be wasting my time proving my point, since the way I tend to look at things, chronology shows what is logical, and what is not logical. Without chronology of some kind, one can simply say Jesus was physically resurrected before He even died. Or that the 2nd coming happens before the first coming..so on and so on. And since no one would dare do that with the above, then why don't they continue using chronology to determine the truth about other Scriptures as well?

I think chronology is important but there are several chapters in revelation( an in other prophetic books) that punctuate the timing and are parenthetical. When we try to mix in these special chapters into the chronology then we run into trouble. I am not speaking of Rev 19 in particular but just making a general statement of how we can get the timing mixed up if we try to mix in verses or chapters that are stepping outside the chronology.

Blessings

divaD
Nov 21st 2013, 01:42 PM
I think chronology is important but there are several chapters in revelation( an in other prophetic books) that punctuate the timing and are parenthetical. When we try to mix in these special chapters into the chronology then we run into trouble. I am not speaking of Rev 19 in particular but just making a general statement of how we can get the timing mixed up if we try to mix in verses or chapters that are stepping outside the chronology.

Blessings

I of course agree and am not suggesting everything in the book of Revelation is chronological. I'm thinking more along the lines like the following.

The Lord descends from heaven with a shout. The dead in Christ rise first. Then those who are alive and remain, they are caught up in the air to meet them. The Lord and His armies now confront the beast and their armies. Sometime after those above events, which is debatable as to when, the GWT judgment then occurs. Thus, the dead in Christ who rise first, and those who are alive and remain, they can't be at this judgment since they would already be physically immortal, and that John is only seeing the dead at that judgment. And this was why I was saying chronology determines what is logical and what isn't. According to the chronology, it is not logical that the GWT judgment occurs before the first resurrection. There is more than one judgment and at different times, and IMO some are confusing them and making them all the GWT judgment.

Redeemed by Grace
Nov 21st 2013, 01:54 PM
I think chronology is important but there are several chapters in revelation( an in other prophetic books) that punctuate the timing and are parenthetical. When we try to mix in these special chapters into the chronology then we run into trouble. I am not speaking of Rev 19 in particular but just making a general statement of how we can get the timing mixed up if we try to mix in verses or chapters that are stepping outside the chronology.

Blessings

Amen... as people, we write as we think, and sometimes we get ahead of ourselves or go back in remembrance, then get distracted, then come back to focus then a squirrel* distracts us, then we come back and continue. The Gospel of Luke has a good chronology, seeing that Luke was a good interviewer, but he also leaves out parts that the other Gospels include. And then the Gospel of Matthew was not written very chronologically and jumps around, and is more thematic than timeline.

And as you noted the parenthetical chapters of Revelation, John pauses and goes back to go forward from about 12-14, so it really takes seeking all the Scriptures and patience to build an accurate timeline in exegetical studies to find that one meaning of scripture.





* Referencing the talking dog of the Movie UP

Eyelog
Nov 21st 2013, 02:05 PM
Epi... if you were alive during the time of Job, I truly feel you'd be one of the 3 or even that 4th person against Job the whole time he was struggling.

What? You don't think he would play Satan?

I think of Epi more like Elihu on this forum.

In reality, don't we all live like Job, when it's just we, our suffering and God? ...

Slug1
Nov 21st 2013, 02:22 PM
What? You don't think he would play Satan?

I think of Epi more like Elihu on this forum.

In reality, don't we all live like Job, when it's just we, our suffering and God? ...Hooah... I've been in the dumps, usually of my own cause, but God sure seemed to pull back. Sometimes when a Christian is said to be "backslidden", are they really just in a period of time where God pulled back and they are really fighting forward, not falling back? We always take the term backslidden to mean a person is falling away but when you hear the testimonies of many Christians, they ALL seem to have a period of their relationship where they were "back" in the world, OR the world was just all against them like it seemed with Job. I was at my worse position once and this was one of the first times a Christian called me a "pastor"... I wanted to punch the person because I was all BUT in any position of even being welcomed in a church. At least that was how I felt due to the struggle going on...

Anyway, salvation isn't always about walking in the abundant/miraculous life in God, it's about continuing to walk when there seems to be NO abundance at all.

Eyelog
Nov 21st 2013, 02:26 PM
Anyway, salvation isn't always about walking in the abundant/miraculous life in God, it's about continuing to walk when there seems to be NO abundance at all.

Amen, brother. Thanks for your testimony. I, too, stand by the perserverance of the Saints. I have this saying: You don't start to endure until you endure. You don't start to persevere until you can't endure. And those who persevere will endure.

Pbminimum
Nov 21st 2013, 02:30 PM
Hooah... I've been in the dumps, usually of my own cause, but God sure seemed to pull back. Sometimes when a Christian is said to be "backslidden", are they really just in a period of time where God pulled back and they are really fighting forward, not falling back? We always take the term backslidden to mean a person is falling away but when you hear the testimonies of many Christians, they ALL seem to have a period of their relationship where they were "back" in the world, OR the world was just all against them like it seemed with Job. I was at my worse position once and this was one of the first times a Christian called me a "pastor"... I wanted to punch the person because I was all BUT in any position of even being welcomed in a church. At least that was how I felt due to the struggle going on...

Anyway, salvation isn't always about walking in the abundant/miraculous life in God, it's about continuing to walk when there seems to be NO abundance at all.

I love this.....Thanks for an awesome word.

TrustGzus
Nov 22nd 2013, 02:16 AM
Bias is bias not matter what the subject. Personally I don't trust dispensationists from Dallas Theological seminary to give me an unbiased translation of a key word in the eternal security doctrine. Just like I wouldn't trust MacArthur on the subject of gifts of the Spirit.

Shepherdsword, as I read this, I wonder how you suggest studying a subject. Can I only trust the translation of a key word by those who agree with my doctrine? How can I grow? What if my view is wrong? Putting the shoe on the other foot, what would you say to person who holds eternal security and says they wouldn't trust a person who rejects eternal security to give them an unbiased translation of a word in a verse in discussion on the subject?

Same with cessationism. Does it do any good for a person to say they won't trust Chuck Smith on the subject of the gifts of the Spirit because they hold a different view than Chuck?

How does one study a subject unless one listens to all sides? And does holding a view then make it a bias against any evidence?

episkopos
Nov 22nd 2013, 01:11 PM
What you just described is like those periods of time when a person is placed in the desert or in a struggle. Epi... if you were alive during the time of Job, I truly feel you'd be one of the 3 or even that 4th person against Job the whole time he was struggling.

I hope not! Those friends of Job were looking on his outward condition and judging his inward condition from that. But even Paul had his thorn in the flesh and was no respected in his person (Paul means small) because of his weak appearance and preaching.

No, God chooses what is not esteemed by men. He chooses the foolish things according to this world's standard.

But what I see in the churches so much is the kind of misplaced enthusiasm so like the people who want to invite the aliens in sci-fi disaster movies by holding up signs of greeting...only to be destroyed at the coming of those aliens (as in Independence day). Of course I am not comparing the intent of the "invaders" but rather the misplaced zeal for the "happy pill" that will solve everything.

If the government decreed moon dwelling the new religion and a tax-exempt status for moon dwellers...we would see a lot of marginal self-interest groups come out of the woodwork. We would have those who argued a "positional" moon citizenship based on dubious paperwork obtained from various purveyors of space legitimacy seeking to exploit the rush to save, save, save. (pun intended)

There would be those who flouted weightlessness laws by either becoming grossly overweight or underweight (and these 2 sects would argue over who was interpreting weightlessness correctly).


But to live on the moon also adds in the danger of operating outside without a sealed suit containing oxygen. That consideration would just be ignored the same way that one who abides in Christ does NOT partake in any sin.


Do the churches discern the difference of the claimants to be abiding in Christ? Or is everyone who claims anything to be believed?

So wherever we see an advantage to self among men....we should be wary...

Jesus showed us that there is NO self-interest allowed into His kingdom. We are to give up our lives for His sake and for others. THAT looks a lot different from the crowds who seem to be pressing in for their own gain...the ones with the signs that welcome the coming of the Lord as if this was not a terrible day of wrath for mankind.

Pbminimum
Nov 22nd 2013, 02:11 PM
I'm sort of having a hard time understanding exactly what your saying with your comparison. But a couple things stood out to me.
Are you saying that someone who abides in Christ doesn't sin ?

episkopos
Nov 22nd 2013, 02:24 PM
I'm sort of having a hard time understanding exactly what your saying with your comparison. But a couple things stood out to me.
Are you saying that someone who abides in Christ doesn't sin ?

Yes! But I also agree that we will go through desert times...times of trial and testing...

As Slug said...


Anyway, salvation isn't always about walking in the abundant/miraculous life in God, it's about continuing to walk when there seems to be NO abundance at all.

Christianity is not an either or...but a both ..and...

We are to strive to enter into Christ at all times....but we will also be tested for character's sake. The Christian walk is not just about holiness....but also righteousness. So then our behaviour and attitude must still reflect a high level of righteousness even out of the immediate presence of God.

But the Christian walk is not a endless walk in the desert without God's presence either...

Eyelog
Nov 22nd 2013, 03:30 PM
Yes! But I also agree that we will go through desert times...times of trial and testing...

As Slug said...



Christianity is not an either or...but a both ..and...

We are to strive to enter into Christ at all times....but we will also be tested for character's sake. The Christian walk is not just about holiness....but also righteousness. So then our behaviour and attitude must still reflect a high level of righteousness even out of the immediate presence of God.

But the Christian walk is not a endless walk in the desert without God's presence either...

Episkopos, Excellent Moonwalk extended simile/analogy, made me laugh.

Anyhow, please explain the difference you describe between sinlessness, holiness and righteousness.

Pbminimum
Nov 22nd 2013, 03:45 PM
Episkopos, Excellent Moonwalk extended simile/analogy, made me laugh.

Anyhow, please explain the difference you describe between sinlessness, holiness and righteousness.

And how it relates to salvation as well...

episkopos
Nov 22nd 2013, 03:47 PM
Episkopos, Excellent Moonwalk extended simile/analogy, made me laugh.

Anyhow, please explain the difference you describe between sinlessness, holiness and righteousness.

Holiness (the walk in Christ according to the new covenant) is without sin. It is to walk EXACTLY as Jesus walked.

Righteousness is about doing what is right with what we have. This can be at any level.

Eyelog
Nov 22nd 2013, 05:08 PM
Holiness (the walk in Christ according to the new covenant) is without sin. It is to walk EXACTLY as Jesus walked.

I appreciate your clarification. Not at all to be facetious, how often are you walking exactly as Jesus walked, ... and can i watch? -- okay, that last part was a little facetious. But I am curious HOW one gets to walk that way.

episkopos
Nov 22nd 2013, 05:15 PM
I appreciate your clarification. Not at all to be facetious, how often are you walking exactly as Jesus walked, ... and can i watch? -- okay, that last part was a little facetious. But I am curious HOW one gets to walk that way.

Well the conditions must be right...as in....we must be dead to ourselves....AND God has to be willing to let us in. What also helps is to live among brethren who are also seeking to walk in holiness.

The longest I walked that way was a few years .... we were living in a community style fellowship where we met every day. The shortest was about three days...at the beginning....when I was overwhelmed by the experience. I had never heard of anybody testifying to the experience of the New Covenant in power. It is truly the best kept secret in all the world.

Pbminimum
Nov 22nd 2013, 10:26 PM
Are you implying that you walked EXACTLY as Jesus walked for several years ?

mailmandan
Nov 22nd 2013, 10:46 PM
Are you implying that you walked EXACTLY as Jesus walked for several years?

How many of us can say that we have walked EXACTLY as Jesus walked (sinless, without fault or defect, flawless) for several years?

Pbminimum
Nov 22nd 2013, 10:54 PM
How many of us can say that we have walked EXACTLY as Jesus walked (sinless, without fault or defect, flawless) for several years?

That's the first time I've ever heard anyone say that.

I personally wouldn't trust the best 15 minutes of my life to get me to heaven.

episkopos
Nov 22nd 2013, 11:32 PM
How many of us can say that we have walked EXACTLY as Jesus walked (sinless, without fault or defect, flawless) for several years?

Why are you surprised at this? I sense that you consider Christianity as no different in power than any other religion.

But look more closely at the biblical testimony and realize that the word of God is far beyond the religion of men.

1Jn 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.


How many Christians would agree with John?

mailmandan
Nov 23rd 2013, 12:10 AM
Why are you surprised at this? I sense that you consider Christianity as no different in power than any other religion.

I never said that Christianity is no different in power than any other religion. The problem with failing to walk EXACTLY as Jesus walked (sinless, without fault or defect, flawless) for several years continuously does not lie with the power of God. It's lies with us. We are not sinless and flawless.


But look more closely at the biblical testimony and realize that the word of God is far beyond the religion of men. 1Jn 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked. How many Christians would agree with John?

Yes, we ought to walk as Jesus walked, that is the goal, but how many of us can claim to have walked EXACTLY as Jesus walked (sinless, without fault of defect, flawless) continuously for several years? You are the first person that I (and Pbminimum) have ever heard make the claim to have walked EXACTLY as Jesus walked (sinless, without fault or defect, flawless) for years. Can anyone else make this claim?

Do you agree with John? - 1 John 1:8-10 - If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us. 1 John 2:1 - My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.