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Nick
Nov 16th 2013, 03:57 AM
In some passages drinking wine is almost advocated. At the very least, social drinking isn't viewed as sin yet there are so many people that believe drinking is sin. It's not and I have no idea where they get this idea. I understand that you should't drink while you're with someone that may have had or still does have a drinking problem but complete abstinence? What is everyone's take on this? Is drinking wine biblically advocated for those who don't have a problem with alcohol? Didn't Paul tell Timothy to drink wine for his stomach issues?

adampjr
Nov 16th 2013, 05:17 AM
It comes from nowhere. The closest thing there is is the verse in Ephesians which states that getting drunk leads to debauchery and it is an unwise thing to do.

There is the obvious example of Jesus' first miracle. Some will explain it away, saying that it was grape juice, but this isn't even worth taking seriously. They were at a wedding celebration. They ran out of the wine. Jesus made more. They weren't just drinking for stomach issues.

Francis Drake
Nov 16th 2013, 10:18 AM
It comes from nowhere. The closest thing there is is the verse in Ephesians which states that getting drunk leads to debauchery and it is an unwise thing to do.

There is the obvious example of Jesus' first miracle. Some will explain it away, saying that it was grape juice, but this isn't even worth taking seriously. They were at a wedding celebration. They ran out of the wine. Jesus made more. They weren't just drinking for stomach issues.

Totally agree. It is impossible to keep grape juice without it fermenting into wine of its own accord anyway in that temperature.

LandShark
Nov 16th 2013, 12:05 PM
In some passages drinking wine is almost advocated. At the very least, social drinking isn't viewed as sin yet there are so many people that believe drinking is sin. It's not and I have no idea where they get this idea. I understand that you should't drink while you're with someone that may have had or still does have a drinking problem but complete abstinence? What is everyone's take on this? Is drinking wine biblically advocated for those who don't have a problem with alcohol? Didn't Paul tell Timothy to drink wine for his stomach issues?

Agreed, those that teach the wine was un-fermented are either not familiar with the culture of that day or the language, or both. It is very clear that drinking alcohol is NOT the issue some make it out to be. Drunkenness is the issue. Why would a deacon not be given to much wine (or an aged woman in Titus) if you can't even drink it? And if that is speaking of grape juice, why can't a deacon have much grape juice? The idea is to be sober, not lose your senses, so a glass of wine or a beer, unless it will cause others to stumble, is not an issue.

And I am not just trying to support something I do by the way, I rarely have a drink of any kind.

EarlyCall
Nov 16th 2013, 12:06 PM
Paul said to not get drunk on strong drink. If we reason this statement through logically, we can come to a good understanding of the answer.

Words spoken by Paul were not words that simply rolled off his tongue but rather deliberate and intentional. Paul could have easily said not to drink strong drink, but instead he said not to get drunk on strong drink.

Now some people want and do try to claim that the wine they drank back then was really just grape juice. Nonsense. Were that so, Paul would have been utterly silly to tell people not to get drunk by drinking something which could not possibly make someone drunk.

Paul tells us not to get drunk but he does not tell us not to drink strong drink. Strong drink here is obviously that which can make one drunk, and that is not grape juice.

Boo
Nov 16th 2013, 12:31 PM
All of this is no different than the other "rules" that man has made to tell us "how to be a Christian."

I guess that is the short way to make people look like something that you don't want to take the time to help them become.

the Seeker
Nov 16th 2013, 01:11 PM
I totally agree. I have noticed that the message concerning drinking in the New Testament is about moderation. In reality, I have noticed that life teaches the very same lesson. If a person eats too many vitamins in one shot, they kill their liver and their lives are forfeit at that point. Too much of anything is bad. Spend too much time with the Mrs., an argument is bound to ensue. Spend too much time watching tv or playing video games? Eye sight, visual instincts and obesity will become that person's issue. If you drink too much, the same effect as taking too many vitamins.

ChangedByHim
Nov 16th 2013, 01:59 PM
In some passages drinking wine is almost advocated. At the very least, social drinking isn't viewed as sin yet there are so many people that believe drinking is sin. It's not and I have no idea where they get this idea. I understand that you should't drink while you're with someone that may have had or still does have a drinking problem but complete abstinence? What is everyone's take on this? Is drinking wine biblically advocated for those who don't have a problem with alcohol? Didn't Paul tell Timothy to drink wine for his stomach issues?

Where in Scripture does it say you shouldn't drink around someone with a drinking problem? Here is what the Bible actually says:

It is good neither to eat meat nor drink wine nor do anything by which your brother stumbles or is offended or is made weak. (Romans 14:21 NKJV)

Bnjmn
Nov 16th 2013, 02:11 PM
Were they not drinking wine at the Last Supper?

I never was taught that drinking was a sin, but getting drunk was the sin

Aviyah
Nov 16th 2013, 02:18 PM
The stuff we have today is much stronger than what they had back then, TMU. I don't drink anyway but something I observed.

ChangedByHim
Nov 16th 2013, 04:08 PM
I don't think that the act of drinking alcohol is a sin. However, I don't drink. Mainly because I want to set an example for my children. But, since all have agreed that getting drunk is a sin, how many of you who drink have done so and never got intoxicated?

nzyr
Nov 16th 2013, 04:10 PM
Were they not drinking wine at the Last Supper?



The bible doesn't say. It could have been. Or it may have been pure grape juice.

Bnjmn
Nov 16th 2013, 04:11 PM
The bible doesn't say. It could have been. Or it may have been pure grape juice.

That ia a good point

keck553
Nov 16th 2013, 04:27 PM
In some passages drinking wine is almost advocated. At the very least, social drinking isn't viewed as sin yet there are so many people that believe drinking is sin. It's not and I have no idea where they get this idea. I understand that you should't drink while you're with someone that may have had or still does have a drinking problem but complete abstinence? What is everyone's take on this? Is drinking wine biblically advocated for those who don't have a problem with alcohol? Didn't Paul tell Timothy to drink wine for his stomach issues?

Strong drink is advocated on Sukkot. By God.

divaD
Nov 16th 2013, 04:36 PM
Where in Scripture does it say you shouldn't drink around someone with a drinking problem? Here is what the Bible actually says:

It is good neither to eat meat nor drink wine nor do anything by which your brother stumbles or is offended or is made weak. (Romans 14:21 NKJV)

While I can't say with 100% certainty that I have a full grasp as to what that verse is saying, do you really feel that that verse justifies someone drinking around someone with a drinking problem? Personally I would think it's pretty good advice, if one only drank socially or maybe during a meal, but not to get intoxicated, that they would refrain from doing this around someone they know has a severe drinking problem. It seems like the person doing this, though they themselves may not be doing it to get intoxicated, that they would be sending a mixed message that drinking is ok, since they themselves drink, even though moderately.

ChangedByHim
Nov 16th 2013, 04:48 PM
While I can't say with 100% certainty that I have a full grasp as to what that verse is saying, do you really feel that that verse justifies someone drinking around someone with a drinking problem? Personally I would think it's pretty good advice, if one only drank socially or maybe during a meal, but not to get intoxicated, that they would refrain from doing this around someone they know has a severe drinking problem. It seems like the person doing this, though they themselves may not be doing it to get intoxicated, that they would be sending a mixed message that drinking is ok, since they themselves drink, even though moderately.

No. I'm saying that it is not limited to those with a drinking problem.

Francis Drake
Nov 16th 2013, 05:02 PM
The stuff we have today is much stronger than what they had back then, TMU. I don't drink anyway but something I observed.

Something you observed? Just wondered Aviyah, when you last tasted 2000 year old Chateau Galilee. LOL Just teasing!

I am no expert, but having made home brew plum wine and loads of home brew beer, I want to add some useful facts. If anyone can correct me, then please do so.

Wine today is produced by essentially the same fermentation process as it was back then. Unlike my plum wine, grape is very high in natural sugar and doesn't need any added.
That is why grapes easily ferment of their own accord, and will quickly rot unless turned into wine.

It is that natural fermentation process which causes the sugar in the grape to turn to alcohol. When the strength of the the alcohol reaches a certain level, unless checked by some means, it kills off the yeast.
Thus all wine stops fermenting at approximately the same alcohol strength, so it is wrong to say that wine is stronger today than back them. Sometimes wine today has added alcohol to strengthen it, and sometimes the fermentation process is halted early by the addition of chemicals, so that it has low alcohol and high sweetness.

The abundance of vineyards all over Israel makes no sense if they were all to be turned into juice or eaten fresh. Grapes are short lived and fragile produce, they travel any distance badly, particularly in mediterranean temperatures. Cultivating such a produce would be financially very risky unless they could be converted into something that gets better with age, rather than worse!

The amount of grapes would exceed by many times that which could be consumed locally before they rotted, so export and trading is obviously the reason for so much grape cultivation. Thus even if people insist that the Jews never consumed alcoholic wine, there is no escaping that they made and traded lots of it.

Now we all remember what Jesus said about new wine needing new wineskins. That particular teaching should give the nay sayers a clue that they cannot possibly run and hide from.
As well as alcohol being converted from the sugar in the grapes, the natural fermentation process also produced CO2 gas. The fact that it would burst the wineskins, unless they were also new season lamb skin, is proof that the wine Jesus spoke about was CO2 producing alcoholic wine. It also tends to indicate that the fermentation would be allowed to complete till the maximum and final strength of about 13 to 14%, as it is today, is reached.

Aviyah
Nov 16th 2013, 06:44 PM
I'm not just talking about wine, but any alcoholic beverage.

Nick
Nov 16th 2013, 07:33 PM
Where in Scripture does it say you shouldn't drink around someone with a drinking problem? Here is what the Bible actually says:

It is good neither to eat meat nor drink wine nor do anything by which your brother stumbles or is offended or is made weak. (Romans 14:21 NKJV)

You and i have had this conversation before and I acknowledged this situation in the OP.

Nick
Nov 16th 2013, 07:47 PM
I don't think that the act of drinking alcohol is a sin. However, I don't drink. Mainly because I want to set an example for my children. But, since all have agreed that getting drunk is a sin, how many of you who drink have done so and never got intoxicated?

This I understand. That you're an pastor and a family man. I completely understand your reasons for not drinking. I'm saying there are some church pastors that push abstinence from alcohol on the congregation, which I believe is unbiblical. Daniel chose not to drink too but that was his choice. God didn't demand that of him.

ChangedByHim
Nov 17th 2013, 12:02 AM
This I understand. That you're an pastor and a family man. I completely understand your reasons for not drinking. I'm saying there are some church pastors that push abstinence from alcohol on the congregation, which I believe is unbiblical. Daniel chose not to drink too but that was his choice. God didn't demand that of him.

If drinking wine is a sin then none of us are saved because Jesus drank wine. If He sinned then our salvation is voided.

LandShark
Nov 17th 2013, 02:27 AM
The stuff we have today is much stronger than what they had back then, TMU. I don't drink anyway but something I observed.

Respectfully, this is not true. How can it be? Grapes ferment the same way today they did back then, fermentation is fermentation. There is no biblical or scientific basis for this claim. Again, I say this respectfully, you are by no means the first person I have heard say this. It just isn't true. :)

cindyt
Nov 17th 2013, 03:01 AM
All of this is no different than the other "rules" that man has made to tell us "how to be a Christian."

I guess that is the short way to make people look like something that you don't want to take the time to help them become. Exactly. Don't dance, but there was dancing in the Bible. Don't go to theaters, but what is the sin of watching a family oriented movie like Star Wars or Braveheart or Passion of the Christ? Seriously. It's like the Pharisees and their traditions.

I don't drink because I don't think it's right for me and alcohol addiction runs in my family.

Boo
Nov 17th 2013, 11:53 AM
Exactly. Don't dance, but there was dancing in the Bible. Don't go to theaters, but what is the sin of watching a family oriented movie like Star Wars or Braveheart or Passion of the Christ? Seriously. It's like the Pharisees and their traditions.

I don't drink because I don't think it's right for me and alcohol addiction runs in my family.

It is good that you care to be an example for others and accept the possible physical addiction tendency.

I had the same tendency, and I fell because of it. It caused many painful days for myself and those around me.

Boo
Nov 17th 2013, 11:59 AM
Genesis 19:30 Now Lot went up out of Zoar and lived in the hills with his two daughters, for he was afraid to live in Zoar. So he lived in a cave with his two daughters.
31 And the firstborn said to the younger, "Our father is old, and there is not a man on earth to come in to us after the manner of all the earth.
32 Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve offspring from our father."
33 So they made their father drink wine that night. And the firstborn went in and lay with her father. He did not know when she lay down or when she arose.
34 The next day, the firstborn said to the younger, "Behold, I lay last night with my father. Let us make him drink wine tonight also. Then you go in and lie with him, that we may preserve offspring from our father."
35 So they made their father drink wine that night also. And the younger arose and lay with him, and he did not know when she lay down or when she arose.
36 Thus both the daughters of Lot became pregnant by their father.

The wine was pretty strong.

mailmandan
Nov 17th 2013, 12:40 PM
I've seen many people who fall into one of two extreme categories when it comes to drinking: They either drink too much and have a drinking problem or else they don't drink at all and they have a problem with everyone who drinks at all.

Boo
Nov 17th 2013, 12:45 PM
I've seen many people who fall into one of two extremes: They either drink too much and have a drinking problem or else they don't drink at all and they have a problem with everyone who drinks at all.

Then there are those of us who were lushes who have been given the power to control ourselves.

Thank God.

mailmandan
Nov 17th 2013, 12:48 PM
Then there are those of us who were lushes who have been given the power to control ourselves.

Thank God.

1 Corinthians 10:31 - Therefore, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God. :)

Diggindeeper
Nov 17th 2013, 04:38 PM
Then there are those of us who were lushes who have been given the power to control ourselves.

Thank God.

Personally, I despise 'drinking'. Early in our married life, my husband was a 'social drinker' and I knew it. But I mistakenly thought lots of people drink a little now and then and they're not alcoholics.' As a few years went forward, and babies came along, he was 'socializing' more and more. Hanging out with guys he worked with 'after work. Coming home half out of his mind and stinking and then puking and then had hangovers so bad he couldn't go to work the next day! "Too sick", he'd say.

His 'social drinking' grew to every night. Then, the staying out all night and the womanizing started. His 'social drinking' consumed our life and took my electric bill payments. Our phone service was cut off. It took food from my table and milk and baby food from my babies. I had to walk with 2, then 3, children the almost 2 miles to his workplace on payday or we did not have grocery money! Then, he'd take us home and rant and rave and take too much of 'his money' back! He drank himself out of a job. We were all hurting. Hurting bad!

Although I honestly still loved him, me and my children were barely hanging on. I'm telling the truth, our marriage ALMOST did not survive!

Had it not been for the intervention of Almighty God, we would not have made it! I have my testimony on here, if anyone cares to read it. http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php/211974-Broken-marriage-broken-home-broken-heart?p=2946188#post2946188

I realize my position is due to my own personal experience, but I do sincerely see great danger in 'acceptable' social drinking. The fact is, at least in my life experience....it grows into a despicable monster!

So, I cannot condone 'social drinking'. It was not easy to put my testimony on here. I laid my heart out in it and to this day, it still hurts to talk about it.

By the way, he told me he 'socialized' with some deacons from our church! How do you know who in a bar room could be 'offended' or influenced by your social drinking? Fact...you don't. They could be deacons or elders from a church and THAT seemed to be acceptable? I can't buy that.

Jake
Nov 17th 2013, 07:47 PM
Personally, I despise 'drinking'. Early in our married life, my husband was a 'social drinker' and I knew it. But I mistakenly thought lots of people drink a little now and then and they're not alcoholics.' As a few years went forward, and babies came along, he was 'socializing' more and more. Hanging out with guys he worked with 'after work. Coming home half out of his mind and stinking and then puking and then had hangovers so bad he couldn't go to work the next day! "Too sick", he'd say.

His 'social drinking' grew to every night. Then, the staying out all night and the womanizing started. His 'social drinking' consumed our life and took my electric bill payments. Our phone service was cut off. It took food from my table and milk and baby food from my babies. I had to walk with 2, then 3, children the almost 2 miles to his workplace on payday or we did not have grocery money! Then, he'd take us home and rant and rave and take too much of 'his money' back! He drank himself out of a job. We were all hurting. Hurting bad!

Although I honestly still loved him, me and my children were barely hanging on. I'm telling the truth, our marriage ALMOST did not survive!

Had it not been for the intervention of Almighty God, we would not have made it! I have my testimony on here, if anyone cares to read it. http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php/211974-Broken-marriage-broken-home-broken-heart?p=2946188#post2946188

I realize my position is due to my own personal experience, but I do sincerely see great danger in 'acceptable' social drinking. The fact is, at least in my life experience....it grows into a despicable monster!

So, I cannot condone 'social drinking'. It was not easy to put my testimony on here. I laid my heart out in it and to this day, it still hurts to talk about it.

By the way, he told me he 'socialized' with some deacons from our church! How do you know who in a bar room could be 'offended' or influenced by your social drinking? Fact...you don't. They could be deacons or elders from a church and THAT seemed to be acceptable? I can't buy that.

Hi DD,
I read your testimony at the link you provided, it's encouraging to know there are people who God has healed from alcoholism. Praise God you and your husband were able to reconcile and enjoy your marriage!

My story is my dad was an alcoholic and he used to beat me, so I learned how to lie in order to get out of his beatings. This all began at the age of 3. I have had to overcome alot of my "survival tricks" and it hasn't been easy, I'm still working on it, too. My mom never left him and so that is how I grew up until he died 3 years ago, I'm 19. My mom did finally leave, when I thought it was much better, and after my dad died - go figure, with a guy who also drinks. Through her leaving and still being a minor, I ended up living with one of my brothers who was also an alcoholic, he was abusive, too, he beat me so bad I almost died.

What surprises me in recent times is how strong the temptation is to fall into the partying lifestyle here. All around me this is what people are doing because it's so socially accepted and I find myself on a fence post too often. A person would think my background would be enough to even avoid the temptation. I keep recalling the verse that says when we are tempted God gives us a way out every time, I need this plastered everywhere.

Boo
Nov 17th 2013, 08:04 PM
Well, there are those who fall into adultery, lying, cheating, etc. The difference is that those other things were sin when they people started them.

Drinking, as done by Jesus and all the characters spoken of in the Bible, was never a problem until drunkenness came into play. One can have bad memories from it, but that does not make it a sin.

I caused a lot of damage when I was a drinker as well, but I detest those who preach and teach and lie about what the Bible says. I get to hear them sometimes, and I bite my tongue as there is no profit in correcting them in public. It is too common to try to joust that windmill.

Jake
Nov 17th 2013, 08:08 PM
Well, there are those who fall into adultery, lying, cheating, etc. The difference is that those other things were sin when they people started them.

Drinking, as done by Jesus and all the characters spoken of in the Bible, was never a problem until drunkenness came into play. One can have bad memories from it, but that does not make it a sin.

I caused a lot of damage when I was a drinker as well, but I detest those who preach and teach and lie about what the Bible says. I get to hear them sometimes, and I bite my tongue as there is no profit in correcting them in public. It is too common to try to joust that windmill.

Hi Boo,

I don't know if you were responding in part to my post, drinking is not a sin in and of itself, although for me drinking would be a sin (I have never drank alcohol). I would imagine there are others who would agree, for them, drinking would be a sin.

A sin for one person isn't necessarily a sin for another, depending on what the Lord has convicted of us and alcohol is a good example.

Boo
Nov 17th 2013, 08:12 PM
Hi Boo,

I don't know if you were responding in part to my post, drinking is not a sin in and of itself, although for me drinking would be a sin (I have never drank alcohol). I would imagine there are others who would agree, for them, drinking would be a sin.

A sin for one person isn't necessarily a sin for another, depending on what the Lord has convicted of us and alcohol is a good example.

I was not directing this at your post, and I most definitely understand that we are given wisdom to avoid those things that we are too weak to handle.

It is the same reason I abstain from certain behaviors: I know when my flesh is weaker than it should be.

Francis Drake
Nov 17th 2013, 08:24 PM
Genesis 19:30 Now Lot went up out of Zoar and lived in the hills with his two daughters, for he was afraid to live in Zoar. So he lived in a cave with his two daughters.
31 And the firstborn said to the younger, "Our father is old, and there is not a man on earth to come in to us after the manner of all the earth.
32 Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve offspring from our father."
33 So they made their father drink wine that night. And the firstborn went in and lay with her father. He did not know when she lay down or when she arose.
34 The next day, the firstborn said to the younger, "Behold, I lay last night with my father. Let us make him drink wine tonight also. Then you go in and lie with him, that we may preserve offspring from our father."
35 So they made their father drink wine that night also. And the younger arose and lay with him, and he did not know when she lay down or when she arose.
36 Thus both the daughters of Lot became pregnant by their father.

The wine was pretty strong.

As I have already explained above, historic wines are the same strength as wines today. The wine is not at fault, just the carnality of Lot for choosing to live amongst pagans.

Francis Drake
Nov 17th 2013, 08:42 PM
I am really saddened by those who have suffered through their own alcoholism, or that of family members. However alcoholism is a demonic bondage, and we are supposed to be setting the captives free, not merely teaching them how to co habit with the demonic power that still threatens them.

Which is a greater testimony, a christian living in fear of alcohol all his life and too scared to drink again, or a christian that has driven the demon of addiction out and stands in victory without fear of alcohol?

A close friend who was a roaring, constantly falling down and puking drunk, with a marriage and children almost totally destroyed by it, came to the Lord.
He was healed of his addiction, and he didn't touch any alcohol for several years. He was a journalist which meant that he had to frequent bars a lot and buy lots of drinks, but always bought himself orange juice.
Then one day as he sat at the bar drinking his orange juice, the Lord asked him, "Dave, do you believe that I have healed you?" "Yes Lord" said my friend.
"Then why do you always drink orange juice?"
My friend was shocked and pondered it fearfully for a while. He then agreed with God and bought himself a beer.
He was well and truly healed, and now drinks freely and with moderation.

Why do we not talk about the healing and deliverance that Jesus brings, rather than live our lives in fear of what Satan can do.
If we live in fear, then Satan still rules.

Jake
Nov 17th 2013, 08:51 PM
I am really saddened by those who have suffered through their own alcoholism, or that of family members. However alcoholism is a demonic bondage, and we are supposed to be setting the captives free, not merely teaching them how to co habit with the demonic power that still threatens them.

Which is a greater testimony, a christian living in fear of alcohol all his life and too scared to drink again, or a christian that has driven the demon of addiction out and stands in victory without fear of alcohol?

A close friend who was a roaring, constantly falling down and puking drunk, with a marriage and children almost totally destroyed by it, came to the Lord.
He was healed of his addiction, and he didn't touch any alcohol for several years. He was a journalist which meant that he had to frequent bars a lot and buy lots of drinks, but always bought himself orange juice.
Then one day as he sat at the bar drinking his orange juice, the Lord asked him, "Dave, do you believe that I have healed you?" "Yes Lord" said my friend.
"Then why do you always drink orange juice?"
My friend was shocked and pondered it fearfully for a while. He then agreed with God and bought himself a beer.
He was well and truly healed, and now drinks freely and with moderation.

Why do we not talk about the healing and deliverance that Jesus brings, rather than live our lives in fear of what Satan can do.
If we live in fear, then Satan still rules.

I hear what you're saying Francis and maybe you're right, but let me tell you how I see it, we are dying to self on a daily basis and carrying our cross, we will always be tempted in this life, too, so if drinking is self indulging, just as smoking weed (it's legal here), unhealthy eating, etc., why self indulge in this way?

If we are supposed to be in the world but not behaving like the world, why do so many Christians look like the world because they also have accepted in such a large scale - social drinking. Next it will be smoking weed, seriously, it's legal in this state. Where do we as Christians draw the line?

For me, drinking is a sin, if I drink, then satan wins the round.

Diggindeeper
Nov 17th 2013, 09:24 PM
For me, like I said, its a personal issue.

I hate the smell of beer or whiskey. I hate the smell of a puking drunk. I hate my man, in my bed, smelling like a beer keg. I hate the drunk urine smell. The breath smell. I hate what it leads to, all the other 'sins' it brings on. I hate the money is spent that is much needed elsewhere.

I just personally hate it and cannot understand anyone who deliberately goes out and buys it, knowing it is growing on them. Like someone (I think Jake) already said, "There is always a way of escape.' Its just too easy to give in and go and buy the danged stuff.

Yes, my reasons are VERY personal. but they ARE my reasons! Go through what I did, and maybe you'll understand.

Nick
Nov 17th 2013, 09:39 PM
One of the reasons I started this thread is because people don't feel comfortable drinking around me (Rom 14:21). I'm a problem drinker when I drink. I appreciate the gesture but I am responsible for own sobriety. The other reason for the thread was this self-righteous push by some that all Christians shouldn't drink when that is not what the Bible teaches.

Slug1
Nov 17th 2013, 09:53 PM
The bible doesn't say. It could have been. Or it may have been pure grape juice.


That ia a good pointJesus was accused of being a drunkard for drinking the fruit of the wine at other times... what makes the last supper any different?

The fruit of the vine, is wine.

Slug1
Nov 17th 2013, 09:57 PM
If drinking wine is a sin then none of us are saved because Jesus drank wine. If He sinned then our salvation is voided.Also, with the miracle of crating all that wine, He "enabled" others to sin when they enjoyed all that fine wine. So, "drinking" wine cannot be a sin.

The Bible is clear, being a drunkard is the sin so defining what a drunkard is, is always in need of discussion.

Diggindeeper
Nov 17th 2013, 10:46 PM
Jesus was accused of being a drunkard for drinking the fruit of the wine at other times... what makes the last supper any different?

The fruit of the vine, is wine.

Its also jam and jelly! And raisins! All of which I have made in my time...........LOL

Slug1
Nov 17th 2013, 10:53 PM
Its also jam and jelly! And raisins! All of which I have made in my time...........LOLWell yeahhhh! My time too :P

Obfuscate
Nov 18th 2013, 12:13 AM
Medical uses?

Proverbs 31:4-7 It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine, for rulers to take strong drink, lest they drink and forget what has been decreed and pervert the rights of all the afflicted. Give strong drink to the one who is perishing, and wine to those in bitter distress; let them drink and forget their poverty and remember their misery no more.

the Seeker
Nov 18th 2013, 05:16 PM
I understand that when anyone is discussing social drinking, I believe that Paul said it best. Do not cause your brother or sister to stumble in their walks with God. I did not have to do battle against the demon of Alcoholism. To those who have, you have my sympathy and respect. I would not recommend anyone attempting to alter what these souls are doing to fight and overcome alcoholism.

NickyBlade
Nov 20th 2013, 02:17 PM
I don't allow alcohol in my home and have yet to see any good come from drinking. I think my personal reasoning is the environment that people socially drink in, bars or parties. Years ago I really enjoyed karaoke on Friday evenings with my friends during my husband's first year long deployment. Even though I didn't drink in those situations, I'd be surrounded by people getting drunk, cussing, loud ungodly music, adultery, etc. Bowling alleys, casinos, and restaurants weren't much better and of course many people there are drinking also. I think that the need to defend alcohol consumption speaks volumes. If you replace the word alcohol with coffee, we might read what the coffee haters had to say and giggle to ourselves, but who would feel compelled to defend their coffee drinking?

I'm a smoker. People hate cigarettes more than alcohol, so it's not like I don't understand being on the hated side of the fence. Is smoking a sin? Any more than alcohol? I'd defend my right to smoke... I only smoke a few a day, I go outside where my smoke doesn't bother anyone, my husband and I go outback for a cigarette after dinner and talk about our day, etc. But in reality, I know it's not good for me. I'm simply justifying what my flesh enjoys. I wouldn't need to defend it if I thought it was good for me. Cigarettes might not be bad, but they lead to bad things... cancer, emphysema, smelly clothes, etc. Alcohol might not be bad, but it leads to bad things... adultery, intoxication, liver damage, etc.

Boo
Nov 21st 2013, 10:27 AM
I don't allow alcohol in my home and have yet to see any good come from drinking. I think my personal reasoning is the environment that people socially drink in, bars or parties. Years ago I really enjoyed karaoke on Friday evenings with my friends during my husband's first year long deployment. Even though I didn't drink in those situations, I'd be surrounded by people getting drunk, cussing, loud ungodly music, adultery, etc. Bowling alleys, casinos, and restaurants weren't much better and of course many people there are drinking also. I think that the need to defend alcohol consumption speaks volumes. If you replace the word alcohol with coffee, we might read what the coffee haters had to say and giggle to ourselves, but who would feel compelled to defend their coffee drinking?

I'm a smoker. People hate cigarettes more than alcohol, so it's not like I don't understand being on the hated side of the fence. Is smoking a sin? Any more than alcohol? I'd defend my right to smoke... I only smoke a few a day, I go outside where my smoke doesn't bother anyone, my husband and I go outback for a cigarette after dinner and talk about our day, etc. But in reality, I know it's not good for me. I'm simply justifying what my flesh enjoys. I wouldn't need to defend it if I thought it was good for me. Cigarettes might not be bad, but they lead to bad things... cancer, emphysema, smelly clothes, etc. Alcohol might not be bad, but it leads to bad things... adultery, intoxication, liver damage, etc.

Eating is not bad, but used incorrectly, it can lead to bad things: obesity, diabetes, food poisoning, etc.

Sleeping is not bad, but it can lead to bad things: laziness, time wasted, failure to go to church, etc.

Everything God has given us is to be used by us for our enjoyment and His glory. To do that, we must use those things correctly and with self-control.

Nowhere is smoking called a sin. I do not smoke and never have, and I do not enjoy the smell. However, I can accept that people enjoy it. I also know of people who have lived to be over 80 years old and have smoked over 60 of them without dying from cancer. I know of people who never smoked who have lung cancer. Don't let "science" determine the danger of smoking for you. Let God handle your questions about such things.

My mother is dying from lung cancer now and is 83 - I believe she may not make it till Christmas. She has smoked from the age of 16. Did smoking cause it? We do not know. She may have gotten lung cancer anyway, just like others who have never smoked and died from lung cancer.

My step-Dad died from cancer and he smoked. However, he had liver cancer; not lung cancer.

Ask God. That is what I do. My convictions come from God and prayer. I don't make a bunch of rules for others to follow.

Nick
Nov 24th 2013, 09:17 PM
In Jan every year our industry (capital markets finance) has the Superbowl of all conferences. It's the one healthcare conference each year where the who's who in our industry is there. Companies present during the day and host cocktail parties in the evening. The lenders, investment bankers, private equity funds and law firms spend tons of money throwing these elaborate and flamboyant receptions. If you play it right you can leave that conference with enough business for the entire year. This is the one conference I have had a very difficult time abstaining from alcohol. In fact I stumbled last year at this conference (I haven't had a drink since then). I'd be lying if I said I wasn't a little concerned this time around. I never go with the intention of drinking, but oftentimes that seems to be the outcome. I don't expect my business partners who claim to be Christian (one is Catholic and the other is Presbyterian) to modify their behavior and not drink based on my known issue with alcohol. That I said I would appreciate it if they did but I'm not going to impose that on them. It would make it easier for me if they were to abstain but I don't expect them to.

Francis Drake
Nov 25th 2013, 04:48 PM
Eating is not bad, but used incorrectly, it can lead to bad things: obesity, diabetes, food poisoning, etc.

Sleeping is not bad, but it can lead to bad things: laziness, time wasted, failure to go to church, etc.

Everything God has given us is to be used by us for our enjoyment and His glory. To do that, we must use those things correctly and with self-control.

Nowhere is smoking called a sin. I do not smoke and never have, and I do not enjoy the smell. However, I can accept that people enjoy it. I also know of people who have lived to be over 80 years old and have smoked over 60 of them without dying from cancer. I know of people who never smoked who have lung cancer. Don't let "science" determine the danger of smoking for you. Let God handle your questions about such things.

My mother is dying from lung cancer now and is 83 - I believe she may not make it till Christmas. She has smoked from the age of 16. Did smoking cause it? We do not know. She may have gotten lung cancer anyway, just like others who have never smoked and died from lung cancer.

My step-Dad died from cancer and he smoked. However, he had liver cancer; not lung cancer.

Ask God. That is what I do. My convictions come from God and prayer. I don't make a bunch of rules for others to follow.

Well spoken Boo.
Neither alcohol, nor tobacco are indicated as a sin in the bible. However there are other aspects to look at.

BTW. I enjoy alcohol, but never, since my mid20s, do I take enough that I lose any of my faculties. ie. I don't seek alcoholic thrills, I just enjoy God's wonderful variety of flavours in new world wines and English beer. The latter I home-brew regularly. I have never smoked though.

The problem with either alcohol or tobacco, is whether it has a hold on you. Does it own you? Can you stop and walk away without getting the sweats etc? If you can't stop, then you are in bondage. If you need a regular fix, then you are not a free person, it has taken you captive.

Being in bondage is something that Jesus came to set us free from. To let something, other than Christ, have dominion over us is wrong and needs to be dealt with.

I believe that these addictions are demonic in nature. Being sons of God we should not have to live the rest of our lives in fear of captivity again. Continuous abstention through fear of the "demon drink" taking hold again is not victory, its just continued victimhood and defeat.
Please forgive me if this offends some, but scripture and testimony makes it clear that Jesus can deliver us from such things.

If we would recognise that demonic powers can enter anyone through almost any foolish thing we do, then deliverance from alcohol demons is no bigger deal than other deliverances.
I have had my fair share of deliverance from demonic bondages, so I am not standing in superior judgement over anyone else here.

Oregongrown
Nov 25th 2013, 10:27 PM
In some passages drinking wine is almost advocated. At the very least, social drinking isn't viewed as sin yet there are so many people that believe drinking is sin. It's not and I have no idea where they get this idea. I understand that you should't drink while you're with someone that may have had or still does have a drinking problem but complete abstinence? What is everyone's take on this? Is drinking wine biblically advocated for those who don't have a problem with alcohol? Didn't Paul tell Timothy to drink wine for his stomach issues? Yes, I am in agreement with you Nick. The bible says do not be a drunkard, and I think it also is telling us not to get "high" on wine, but to get high on the Lord. Ephesians 5:18 New King James Version (NKJV) 18 And do not be drunk with wine, in which is dissipation; but be filled with the Spirit, I think that we can do a lot of things, that are not bad for us, but in access they are. Also, we can do things that are not a sin, but "use" them in a bad (wrong) way that turns them into sin. I think there are verses about not drinking or eating certain things if they would make our guests uncomfortable too, let me look: 1 Corinthians 8:13 ESV Therefore, if food makes my brother stumble, I will never eat meat, lest I make my brother stumble. Romans 14:13 ESV Therefore let us not pass judgment on one another any longer, but rather decide never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of a brother. Luke 17:1-4 ESV And he said to his disciples, “Temptations to sin are sure to come, but woe to the one through whom they come! It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck and he were cast into the sea than that he should cause one of these little ones to sin. Pay attention to yourselves! If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him, and if he sins against you seven times in the day, and turns to you seven times, saying, ‘I repent,’ you must forgive him.” I think that last one has been used by people to say drinking is a sin. Oh, what if someone sees you buying wine, or it's served at your dinner-table, if someone sees, then they could stumble. I think this verse is for those that would purposely coax someone into sin, or if they don't drink, coax them to do that. These days, if I have a gathering, I don't serve wine, or alcohol because there are too many folks that do suffer from being tempted, and could stumble. So I don't purposely lead anyone into temptation, never knowingly. But I have to also have on my armor when I am with folks that cuss, because, I used to do that, so I stay away from those that use foul language. So if folks have a drinking problem, or smoking or anything that is bad for them, stay away from slippery places where you might be tempted. I'm sure there are verses for that as well: 1 Corinthians 10:13 ESV No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it. 2 Timothy 2:22 ESV So flee youthful passions and pursue righteousness, faith, love, and peace, along with those who call on the Lord from a pure heart. 1 Corinthians 6:18 ESV Flee from sexual immorality. Every other sin a person commits is outside the body, but the sexually immoral person sins against his own body. I'm sorry my posts aren't coming out as I type them, I mean they are all coming out as one blob of paragraph:(

WITDNM
Dec 27th 2013, 06:41 PM
The people of Bible times did know how to keep grape juice from fermenting. For those interested, I would recommend the book, Bible Wines by William Patton. It is available, free, as a PDF and was easy to find on Google.

This has been hinted at in several posts, if you advocate the use of alcoholic beverages you will cause a weaker brother to stumble. If you do it long enough, you will cause a weaker brother to be distroyed.

Nick
Dec 27th 2013, 07:33 PM
The people of Bible times did know how to keep grape juice from fermenting. For those interested, I would recommend the book, Bible Wines by William Patton. It is available, free, as a PDF and was easy to find on Google.

This has been hinted at in several posts, if you advocate the use of alcoholic beverages you will cause a weaker brother to stumble. If you do it long enough, you will cause a weaker brother to be distroyed.

I can appreciate what it says in Rom 14:21. I'm the drunk that would be the one who stumbles and I take 100% responsibility for each time I fall. Am I influenced by those around me? Sure, but I also willingly put myself in a position to be influenced. I went down to Cabo with 3 other couples. We got a majestic place right on the beach and it was party time for them. I was able to not succumb to the desire to drink for 4 days and fell on 5th day. It was a nasty fall. Next day, I woke up bewildered, shameful, and unclean and repented. Didn't drink for the rest of the trip and for severals months after. Then I went on a business trip to SF for 5 days. I stumbled on day 1 and stayed drunk the entire time. On the 5th day I repented in SFO airport, and haven't had a drink since. That was a year ago. That same business trip is coming up again in less than a couple of weeks, which means no cocktail receptions for me. My wife is also going to ensure I stay sober. I am definitely influenced by the world, but not to the extent I used to be. This is a very longwinded way of saying I am responsible for my own sobriety.

WITDNM
Dec 27th 2013, 07:53 PM
If I contribute to your stumbling, I too, will have to give account.

Laish
Dec 27th 2013, 08:07 PM
If I contribute to your stumbling, I too, will have to give account.

Hello WITDNM
As a recovered drunk I appreciate your concern . Yes we all need to be aware of the weaker fellow . The going about babying the weaker brother or sister after they get on their feet can cause just as much damage as pouring them a shot of Jack . Getting him or her equipped to dealing with the real world is the key . Mentoring is a far better way to help than treating them differently because of their weakness .
Blessings
Bill

Nick
Dec 27th 2013, 08:08 PM
If I contribute to your stumbling, I too, will have to give account.

I prefer to keep my issues with alcohol somewhat private. I used to enjoy boasting about all my crazy drunk-a-log stories in AA meetings, but not anymore. I'll use it if it helps another drunk similar to me relate and hopefully take the steps needed to recover, but outside of that, I don't like sharing it with people who don't have a problem with it. To your point, when I examine the text on Rom 14:21 "It is good not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything that causes your brother to stumble" it brings me back to v.13 "Therefore let us not pass judgment on one another any longer, but rather decide never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of a brother."

The translated meaning of that verse is that anything a believer does—even though Scripture may permit it—that causes another to fall into sin (1 Cor. 8:9). You would have to have full knowledge of my condition in order to contribute to my stumbling. The alcoholic has a tendency to lie, partly because they are self-decieved into thinking that somehow, someway, they will be able to control their drinking. A person who doesn't have a problem with drinking will never fully understand the alcoholic mind. Contributing to someone's fall is relative. The alcoholic is generally very good at manipulation especially when it comes to justifying drinking. Is the social drinker responsible for discerning that? I don't think so.

OneCandle
Dec 28th 2013, 04:50 AM
As I have already explained above, historic wines are the same strength as wines today. The wine is not at fault, just the carnality of Lot for choosing to live amongst pagans.


Fortified wine is an exception to this. Fortified wine is wine with extra grain alcohol added.

Distilled liquor did not exist in Biblical times, so the Bible neither approved nor disapproved of them.

Distilled liquor may have been invented by the Arabs in the 10th century but may not have been known in Europe until the 13th century.

OneCandle
Dec 28th 2013, 05:01 AM
The Old Testament did recognize abstinence from wine as one sign of a holy life for certain individuals who have taken on this task.

Numbers 6

King James Version (KJV)


And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,

2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When either man or woman shall separate themselves to vow a vow of a Nazarite, to separate themselves unto the Lord:

3 He shall separate himself from wine and strong drink, and shall drink no vinegar of wine, or vinegar of strong drink, neither shall he drink any liquor of grapes, nor eat moist grapes, or dried.

4 All the days of his separation shall he eat nothing that is made of the vine tree, from the kernels even to the husk.

Also

20 And the priest shall wave them for a wave offering before the Lord: this is holy for the priest, with the wave breast and heave shoulder: and after that the Nazarite may drink wine.

21 This is the law of the Nazarite who hath vowed, and of his offering unto the Lord for his separation, beside that that his hand shall get: according to the vow which he vowed, so he must do after the law of his separation.

Boo
Dec 28th 2013, 01:00 PM
The truth is the there were drunks in the old testament. The idea that there was no alcohol in wine back then is false.

Our mandate is not to be a drunkard.

We have another mandate to grow in our faith and be more like Christ.

We do not have a mandate to make rules for other people to follow.

shepherdsword
Dec 28th 2013, 01:09 PM
I had a glass of wine at Christmas dinner this year. I did it to prove and show that I was no longer an alcoholic but a new creation in Christ. I could actually only drink half because I just don't have desire for it anymore. I threw the rest out. I was involved in AA many years ago but I have found their definition of me as always being an alcoholic false. I am delivered in Jesus's name from that addiction. I am not slamming AA. There was a time when I needed it and the non-drinking friends the fellowship provided. I worked the program faithfully,did my "90 in 90"(more like 90 in 30) and attended daily meetings for a year. I am thankful for the program but I outgrew it.

Boo
Dec 28th 2013, 01:13 PM
I had a glass of wine at Christmas dinner this year. I did it to prove to myself that I was no longer an alcoholic but a new creation in Christ. I could actually only drink half because I just don't have desire for it anymore. I threw the rest out. I was involved in AA many years ago but I have found their definition of me as always being an alcoholic false. I am delivered in Jesus's name from that addiction. I am not slamming AA. There was a time when I needed it and the non-drinking friends the fellowship provided. I worked the program faithfully,did my "90 in 90"(more like 90 in 30) and attended daily meetings for a year. I am thankful for the program but I outgrew it.

If Amen had fifteen letters, I would say only AMEN.

WITDNM
Dec 28th 2013, 03:30 PM
The truth is the there were drunks in the old testament. The idea that there was no alcohol in wine back then is false.

Our mandate is not to be a drunkard.

We have another mandate to grow in our faith and be more like Christ.

We do not have a mandate to make rules for other people to follow.

Of course some, maybe most, wine mentioned in the Bible had alcohol in it.

Did this wine have alcohol in it?


"Thus saith the Lord, As the new wine is found in the cluster, and one saith, Destroy it not; for a blessing is in it: so will I do for my servants' sakes, that I may not destroy them all." Isaiah 65:8

OneCandle
Dec 29th 2013, 12:12 AM
There is some evidence that alcoholism causes permanent changes in the brain.

I'm not sure Jesus rescues us from that.

I would urge caution.

Nick
Dec 29th 2013, 12:25 AM
I had a glass of wine at Christmas dinner this year. I did it to prove and show that I was no longer an alcoholic but a new creation in Christ. I could actually only drink half because I just don't have desire for it anymore. I threw the rest out. I was involved in AA many years ago but I have found their definition of me as always being an alcoholic false. I am delivered in Jesus's name from that addiction. I am not slamming AA. There was a time when I needed it and the non-drinking friends the fellowship provided. I worked the program faithfully,did my "90 in 90"(more like 90 in 30) and attended daily meetings for a year. I am thankful for the program but I outgrew it.

I respect that, but for me, that would be just playing with fire, new creation or not. Alcohol is extremely seductive and powerful. I don't need to prove I have power over something that has continuously ruined my life and jeopardized everything. It's just not worth it.

Boo
Dec 29th 2013, 12:23 PM
And the Holy Spirit gives us counsel in regards to what we need. For some, it is abstinence. For others, it is moderation. It is never encouragement to drunkenness.

Nick
Dec 29th 2013, 07:02 PM
And the Holy Spirit gives us counsel in regards to what we need. For some, it is abstinence. For others, it is moderation. It is never encouragement to drunkenness.

I know of people that drank alcoholically and after a time of being sober returned to drinking more socially. There is a difference between a heavy drinker and an alcoholic. You could drink everyday to excess and either stop or moderate if there was a good enough reason for it. That's the heavy drinker. The alcoholic doesn't stop or moderate regardless of the consequences even though he wants to more than anything else. He has all the reasons in the world to stop but can't.

WITDNM
Dec 29th 2013, 09:49 PM
And the Holy Spirit gives us counsel in regards to what we need. For some, it is abstinence. For others, it is moderation. It is never encouragement to drunkenness.

envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:21

Slug1
Dec 29th 2013, 10:00 PM
I think it was in this thread or another of this topic... it's always a good foundation to "define" drunkenness based on the scriptures.

For example, should a person drink two beers while BBQing all day, is he/she a drunkard?

Should a person drink enough at a party and is drunk by the end of the party, and that is the only time in a year they were drunk, is he/she a drunkard?

Should a person drink a beer with dinner each night, is he/she a drunkard?

Should a person drink daily, with the purpose to get drunk, is he/she a drunkard?

These are just some examples because in the extreme some may say walking into the liqueur store means you are a drunkard. Or using actual wine during Communion, means the WHOLE church are drunkards... kinda like when Jesus was accused of being a wine bibber... there are STILL people who ARE in the Body of Christ and WILL accuse brothers and sisters in Christ, as Jesus was accused for drinking wine.

Nick
Dec 29th 2013, 11:06 PM
I think it was in this thread or another of this topic... it's always a good foundation to "define" drunkenness based on the scriptures.

For example, should a person drink two beers while BBQing all day, is he/she a drunkard? No

Should a person drink enough at a party and is drunk by the end of the party, and that is the only time in a year they were drunk, is he/she a drunkard? No

Should a person drink a beer with dinner each night, is he/she a drunkard? Sure, if one doesn't lead to another and another.

Should a person drink daily, with the purpose to get drunk, is he/she a drunkard? Depends. Like I said, there is a difference between a heavy drinker and an alcoholic. That said I don't believe it is God's will for His people to get drunk everyday.

These are just some examples because in the extreme some may say walking into the liqueur store means you are a drunkard. Or using actual wine during Communion, means the WHOLE church are drunkards... kinda like when Jesus was accused of being a wine bibber... there are STILL people who ARE in the Body of Christ and WILL accuse brothers and sisters in Christ, as Jesus was accused for drinking wine. I know. My former church started CR. All the church staff and ministry leaders and Church Counselors, a lot of whom are non paid volunteers, have to sign an oath of complete abstinance from alcohol. This applies to interns as well. It is meant to show solidarity with the CR since CR is such large ministry within that church. I think that is way too extreme to impose on people. If you're 'caught' drinking you are fired on the spot or asked to step down from your leadership position.

Answers/opinions above in bold.

Boo
Dec 30th 2013, 12:22 PM
envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:21

Were you showing the proof of what I said or did you not understand what I said?

WITDNM
Dec 30th 2013, 01:05 PM
Were you showing the proof of what I said or did you not understand what I said?

I was pointing out the Bible condemns more than drunkenness. It condemns revelries, which is a lesser use of alcohol than drunkenness. It also condemns, and the like.

Slug1
Dec 30th 2013, 01:23 PM
]

No

NoHooah.


Sure, if one doesn't lead to another and another.

Depends. Like I said, there is a difference between a heavy drinker and an alcoholic. That said I don't believe it is God's will for His people to get drunk everyday. Your two answers between these two questions I asked are in opposition of each other. I asked that should a person drink "a" beer with their dinner, are they a drunkard and you turned it into a whole different situation by "adding" that if it leads to MORE drinking during the night, then the answer is "SURE". Then I asked about a person who PURPOSELY plans to get drunk when they drink and you seem to JUSTIFY their drinking being either a heavy drinker OR an alcoholic. Are you implying that a "heavy drinker" of alcohol is not a drunkard? Then, what about that person who drinks a beer with dinner each night and this leads to the whole 6 pack by the end of the night... are they JUST a heavy drinker and does this mean they are NOT a drunkard?


I know. My former church started CR. All the church staff and ministry leaders and Church Counselors, a lot of whom are non paid volunteers, have to sign an oath of complete abstinance from alcohol. This applies to interns as well. It is meant to show solidarity with the CR since CR is such large ministry within that church. I think that is way too extreme to impose on people. If you're 'caught' drinking you are fired on the spot or asked to step down from your leadership position. Ummm... if a leader chooses to lead in this ministry with such rules then they are under the authority of the leadership over them and make that choice in serving in that ministry.

I do understand what you mean though... a person who is addicted to shopping, are the leaders imposed never to shop? If a person is addicted to the internet, are leaders imposed to never use the internet?

Probably not.

Boo
Dec 30th 2013, 02:24 PM
I was pointing out the Bible condemns more than drunkenness. It condemns revelries, which is a lesser use of alcohol than drunkenness. It also condemns, and the like.

Then Jesus was a sinner?

Surely you cannot mean that. I think you are trying too hard to make the occasional beer and wine to be a sin, but Jesus and Paul would disagree with you.

Slug1
Dec 30th 2013, 03:21 PM
Then Jesus was a sinner?

Surely you cannot mean that. I think you are trying too hard to make the occasional beer and wine to be a sin, but Jesus and Paul would disagree with you.Great question... I've asked it myself in past threads/discussions. Lets see if we can have edifying discussion in determining the defining of both drunkeness and revelries now.

An interesting comment by C.S. Lewis in his Mere Christianity book about the term "temperance"... he goes on to state,
"of course it may be the duty of a particular Christian, or of any Christian, at a particular time, to abstain from strong drink, either because he is the sort of man who cannot drink at all without drinking too much, or because he is with people who are inclined to drunkenness and must not encourage them by drinking himself. But the whole point is that he is abstaining, for good reason, from something which he does not condemn and which he likes to see other people enjoying. One of the marks of a certain type of bad man is that he cannot give up a thing himself without wanting every one else to give it up. That in not the Christian way. An individual Christian may see fit to give up all sorts of things for speacial reasons - marriage, or meat, or beer, or the cinima; but the moment he starts saying things are bad in themselves, or looking down his nose at other people who so use them, he has taken the wrong turning" (pg 78-79, C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity, Harper Collins Publishers, 1952)

WITDNM
Dec 30th 2013, 04:07 PM
Then Jesus was a sinner?

Surely you cannot mean that. I think you are trying too hard to make the occasional beer and wine to be a sin, but Jesus and Paul would disagree with you.

All I did was quote part of scripture.

The people of New Testament times, both Jews and Gentiles knew how to keep grape juice from fermenting. It is not necessary to conclude the wine made by Jesus in John 2 had an alcohol content. The Greek word 'oinos' translated 'wine' in John 2 refers to grape juice in all of its stages, unfermented or fermented.

Even in English 'wine' has not always meant absolutely fermented.

The 1955 Funk & Wagnall’s New Standard Dictionary of the English Language defines “wine” as follows: “1. The fermented juice of the grape: in loose language the juice of the grape whether fermented or not.”

Slug1
Dec 30th 2013, 04:09 PM
All I did was quote part of scripture.

The people of New Testament times, both Jews and Gentiles knew how to keep grape juice from fermenting. It is not necessary to conclude the wine made by Jesus in John 2 had an alcohol content. The Greek word 'oinos' translated 'wine' in John 2 refers to grape juice in all of its stages, unfermented or fermented.

Even in English 'wine' has not always meant absolutely fermented.

The 1955 Funk & Wagnall’s New Standard Dictionary of the English Language defines “wine” as follows: “1. The fermented juice of the grape: in loose language the juice of the grape whether fermented or not.”So was Jesus accused of drinking "juice"? If so... what is wrong or better yet, why is it "negative" to be accused of drinking juice?

Curtis
Dec 30th 2013, 04:43 PM
So was Jesus accused of drinking "juice"? If so... what is wrong or better yet, why is it "negative" to be accused of drinking juice?

Mat 11:19 The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Look at him! A glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified by her deeds."

You can not be accused of being a drunkard unless you did drink fermented wine, not juice.

Slug1
Dec 30th 2013, 04:49 PM
Mat 11:19 The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Look at him! A glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified by her deeds."

You can not be accused of being a drunkard unless you did drink fermented wine, not juice.Amen!

If I ask this question directly to those who avoid the fact that the wine Jesus drank was "fermented" and thus... alcoholic, dicussions can never proceed nor be edifying. So... tossing out questions as I do, generates responces from others as we can discern from the scriptures that what Jesus drank WAS alcoholic.

SO then... when we define the term "revelries" as has been done so far in this thread as a sin... was Jesus a "revelER" due to His consumption of alcohol?

The answer clearly is NO... so is the defining of the term revelries as drinking ANY alcohol, even a little (a glass with a meal), correct?

WITDNM
Dec 30th 2013, 05:36 PM
You can not be accused of being a drunkard unless you did drink fermented wine, not juice.

This is not true. Anyone can be accused of anything. In John 10:19 Jesus was accused of being demon possessed.

Curtis
Dec 30th 2013, 06:16 PM
This is not true. Anyone can be accused of anything. In John 10:19 Jesus was accused of being demon possessed.

Eph 5:18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;

Pro 23:20 Be not among drunkards or among gluttonous eaters of meat,

1Co 5:11 But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler--not even to eat with such a one.

Obviously you can drink enough wine to get drunk. Jesus drank wine, so whats the big deal about that. As long as you don't over do in excess, that is where the problems come in.
Even the Apostle Paul did not forbid the drinking of wine, as long as you don't get to the point of getting drunk.

Eph 5:18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;

Gen 14:18 And Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine. (He was priest of God Most High.)
Gen 14:19 And he blessed him and said, "Blessed be Abram by God Most High, Possessor of heaven and earth;

The Hebrew word in this verse always reefers to fermented wine.

During Jesus day they did not have refrigeration to stop the fermenting process like we have today.

Curtis
Dec 30th 2013, 07:33 PM
I was pointing out the Bible condemns more than drunkenness. It condemns revelries, which is a lesser use of alcohol than drunkenness. It also condemns, and the like.

Revelries is what happens when someone drinks to much. They get loud and obnoxious and do stupid things. Been there, done that.

Curtis
Dec 30th 2013, 07:37 PM
Passover was 6-7 months after the harvest of grapes. There was no way they could stop grapes from fermenting after that long of period of storing either in jars, or wine skins with out refrigeration.

WITDNM
Dec 30th 2013, 07:46 PM
The Hebrew word in this verse always reefers to fermented wine.

During Jesus day they did not have refrigeration to stop the fermenting process like we have today.

There is not a Hebrew word that always refers to fermented wine.

One more time. They knew how to prevent fermentation. It was usually done by heating the juice but was also done by storing it in caves where it was cool.

Boo
Dec 30th 2013, 09:02 PM
We are working real hard to show that the Jews and Jesus were sinners because of their alcohol consumption. Look at the verses listed below. It is blatantly obvious that this wine was alcoholic and not grape juice. Grape juice needs no warnings about consumption, nor does grape juice infuriate the temper, increase the passions, impair the judgment, etc.

Time to be honest, isn't it?

Often spiced to increase its strength, etc. Pr 9:2, 5; 23:30; Song 8:2.

Alcohol was used
a. As a beverage from the earliest age. Gen 9:21; 27:25.
b. At all feasts and entertainments. Est 1:7; 5:6; Isa 5:12; Dan 5:1-4; John 2:3.
c. For drink offerings in the worship of God. Ex 29:40; Num 15:4-10.
d. For drink offerings in idolatrous worship. Deut 32:37, 38.
e. As a medicine. Luke 10:34; 1 Tim 5:23.

In excess
a. Forbidden. Eph 5:18.
b. Infuriates the temper. Pr 20:1
c. Impairs the health. 1 Sam 25:37; Hos 4:11.
d. Impairs the judgment and memory. Pr 31:4, 5; Isa 28:7.
e. Inflames the passions. Isa 5:11.
f. Leads to sorrow and contention. Pr 23:29, 30.
g. Leads to remorse. Pr 23:31, 32.

Forbidden to kings Prov 31:4

Given by Melchizedek to Abraham Gen 14:18

Instances of intoxication from:
Noah Gen 9:21
Lot Gen 19:32
Joseph and his brethren Gen 43:34
Nabal 1 Sam 25:36
Amnon 2 Sam 13:28-29
Ahasuerus Esth 1:10
Kings of Israel Hos 7:5
Falsely charged against the disciples Acts 2:13

Given in abundance to the Jews when obedient. Hos 2:22; Joel 2:19, 24; Zec 9:17.

The Jews frequently deprived of, as a punishment. Isa 24:7, 11; Hos 2:9; Joel 1:10; Hag 1:11; 2:16.

The Jews frequently drank, to excess. Isa 5:11; Joel 3:3; Amos 6:6.

In times of scarcity, was mixed with water. Isa 1:22.

Sometimes mixed with milk as a beverage. Song 5:1.

Characterized as
a. Cheering God and man. Judges 9:13; Zec 9:17.
b. Gladdening the heart. Ps 104:15.
c. Strengthening. 2 Sam 16:2; Song 2:5.
d. Making mirthful. Est 1:10; Eccl 10:19.

Custom of presenting to travelers. Gen 14:18; 1 Sam 25:18.

Custom of giving to persons in pain or suffering, mixed with drugs. Pr 31:6; Mark 15:23.

Forbidden to the priests while engaged in the tabernacle. Lev 10:9.

Forbidden to Nazarites during their separation. Num 6:3.

WITDNM
Dec 30th 2013, 10:01 PM
We are working real hard to show that the Jews and Jesus were sinners because of their alcohol consumption. Look at the verses listed below. It is blatantly obvious that this wine was alcoholic and not grape juice. Grape juice needs no warnings about consumption, nor does grape juice infuriate the temper, increase the passions, impair the judgment, etc.

Time to be honest, isn't it?

.

Why would a Christian want any part of something that would, infuriate the temper, increase the passions, impair the judgment, etc.?

Why would Jesus by His example, encourage people to partake of something that would, infuriate the temper, increase the passions, impair the judgment, etc.?

At best, this places a stumbling block in front of weaker brethren. At worst, it destroys weaker brethren.

It is not necessary to conclude Jesus consumed or produced alcohol.

Would this wine contain alcohol?

Gladness is taken away,
And joy from the plentiful field;
In the vineyards there will be no singing,
Nor will there be shouting;
No treaders will tread out wine in the presses;
I have made their shouting cease. Isaiah 16:10

Slug1
Dec 30th 2013, 11:18 PM
Why would a Christian want any part of something that would, infuriate the temper, increase the passions, impair the judgment, etc.?Some Christians exercise temperance and their temper, passions, judgment is not affected when they enjoy a drink.


Why would Jesus by His example, encourage people to partake of something that would, infuriate the temper, increase the passions, impair the judgment, etc.?Is this question in relation to when Jesus created wine?


At best, this places a stumbling block in front of weaker brethren. At worst, it destroys weaker brethren.AMEN, a Christian who exercises their temperance and abstains from drinking while around those without any temperance is right in abstaining.


It is not necessary to conclude Jesus consumed or produced alcohol.It's about what the Bible teaches, not about how a person wants to accept the Word of God, or not.


Would this wine contain alcohol?

Gladness is taken away,
And joy from the plentiful field;
In the vineyards there will be no singing,
Nor will there be shouting;
No treaders will tread out wine in the presses;
I have made their shouting cease. Isaiah 16:10What is the context of the verse about?

WITDNM
Dec 31st 2013, 12:42 PM
Some Christians exercise temperance and their temper, passions, judgment is not affected when they enjoy a drink.
This is beside the point. Their example creates a stumbling block for a weaker member.


Is this question in relation to when Jesus created wine?

Yes.

Did Jesus make a beverage that would, infuriate the temper, increase the passions, impair the judgment, etc. for a group of people who were already 'well drunk' with a beverage that would, infuriate the temper, increase the passions, impair the judgment, etc.?

Or did Jesus make grape juice for people already 'well drunk' with grape juice?



It's about what the Bible teaches, not about how a person wants to accept the Word of God, or not.

The Bible does not teach Jesus made alcohol. Jesus made 'oinos'. Alcohol is not inherent to the word.


What is the context of the verse about?

The juice that comes out of a wine press has no alcohol in it. I'm not sure how context would change this.

Slug1
Dec 31st 2013, 12:44 PM
This is beside the point. Their example creates a stumbling block for a weaker member.How? By the person excercising temperance, they ARE abstaining in the presense of those who are weak.




Yes.

Did Jesus make a beverage that would, infuriate the temper, increase the passions, impair the judgment, etc. for a group of people who were already 'well drunk' with a beverage that would, infuriate the temper, increase the passions, impair the judgment, etc.?

Or did Jesus make grape juice for people already 'well drunk' with grape juice?He made wine... do a study of the type and you then have a choice to accept the scriptures, or not to accept the scriptures.





The Bible does not teach Jesus made alcohol. Jesus made 'oinos'. Alcohol is not inherent to the word.I agree... he made wine, not alcohol.




The juice that comes out of a wine press has no alcohol in it. I'm not sure how context would change this.So then... what does it all mean?

Boo
Dec 31st 2013, 01:30 PM
Apparently, it was a waste of my time to give the verse references.

God gave man food, but then tells us about the error of gluttony.

God gave man sex, but then tells us how we are to participate and not participate.

God gave man wine, and then tells us how we are to use it.

Just because some are gluttons, adulterers, and drunks is no reason to prohibit food, sex, or wine for Christians. We are to follow His instructions.

Read the verses and see how God gave instructions for drinking. If we cannot comply, we should not participate.

Slug1
Dec 31st 2013, 01:36 PM
Apparently, it was a waste of my time to give the verse references.

God gave man food, but then tells us about the error of gluttony.

God gave man sex, but then tells us how we are to participate and not participate.

God gave man wine, and then tells us how we are to use it.

Just because some are gluttons, adulterers, and drunks is no reason to prohibit food, sex, or wine for Christians. We are to follow His instructions.

Read the verses and see how God gave instructions for drinking. If we cannot comply, we should not participate.Amen !

Nick
Dec 31st 2013, 04:38 PM
Amen !

You should visit a low bottom indignant detox center and say that. Some of those guys know Scripture better than all of us yet there they are (I've been there too) drunk and completely powerless. It's folly to underestimate the power of alcohol. Any study of Solomon's Proverbs would reveal that. I've met all sorts of godly along the people - Priests, rabbis, lots of pastors, etc. all with the same thing in common - complete powerlessness over alcohol.

Slug1
Dec 31st 2013, 04:47 PM
You should visit a low bottom indignant detox center and say that. Some of those guys know Scripture better than all of us yet there they are (I've been there too) drunk and completely powerless. It's folly to underestimate the power of alcohol. Any study of Solomon's Proverbs would reveal that.Their abuse of the gifts that God gives to the world does not change what God has done. The enemy has changed what God has done and what you raise is the proof/evidence of this. But to say what you did as if what God did was wrong... is wrong.

If anyone should understand the scriptures and give an amen as I did, is you... for being IN both places... understanding of scrpture AND also having been under the influence of a gift that is being abused and used sinfully. Those who have been in the depths of addiction, bound in it themselves and freed of those depths in addiction can be used in very mighty ways by God. They KNOW what the addicted person has and IS going through and due to experience, can help them in great(er) ways.

Just don't knock what God has done for the world and what He's given to the world... knock only how satan has caused abuse of and sinful use of God's gifts.

Diggindeeper
Dec 31st 2013, 04:59 PM
Posted by Nick:

You should visit a low bottom indignant detox center and say that. Some of those guys know Scripture better than all of us yet there they are (I've been there too) drunk and completely powerless. It's folly to underestimate the power of alcohol. Any study of Solomon's Proverbs would reveal that. I've met all sorts of godly along the people - Priests, rabbis, lots of pastors, etc. all with the same thing in common - complete powerlessness over alcohol.

To me, that is the real danger in alcohol. I know that my own husband would say, "I can stop anytime I want to." Later that became, "I know how much to drink and when its too much. I stop before its 'too much'. Yet, even while saying that, he would be running over the curbs when turning, had to have at least a quart before bedtime regardless of how much he's already drunk, he'd say those things then turn around and puke his guts out.

His danger was that it grew on him! He was staying in bars and beer joints for longer and longer hours. He got meaner and meaner at home. He had no idea how much money he was wasting and we (his family) was doing without because he spent more and more and more. And sometimes, he'd get real generous at the joints and 'the drinks were on him', while the electric or phone got cut off at home, or we did not have enough to by decent food.

Like Nick said, he became powerless when it came to his drinking. I cannot in good conscience wish that kind of life on my worst enemy.

Nick
Dec 31st 2013, 05:22 PM
An important thing to note about DD's post above is that her husband in all likelihood sincerely meant it when he said he wanted to stop. We all want to stop but the needed power to do so isn't there. We then resort to telling lies to ourselves and to our wives to continue drinking. Some of us get to a point where we actually believe our own lies.

I went down to Cabo was absolutely no intention of drinking. The thought was lingering in my mind but I wasn't planning on acting on it. I listened to the Bible on CDs on the trip down, took a morning quiet time each day and by day 5 it was time to drink. The compulsion came out of nowhere. Regardless of my good intentions I got drunk and it was a total disaster.

Lyndie
Dec 31st 2013, 05:41 PM
You should visit a low bottom indignant detox center and say that. Some of those guys know Scripture better than all of us yet there they are (I've been there too) drunk and completely powerless. It's folly to underestimate the power of alcohol. Any study of Solomon's Proverbs would reveal that. I've met all sorts of godly along the people - Priests, rabbis, lots of pastors, etc. all with the same thing in common - complete powerlessness over alcohol.

Being in Celebrate Recovery, I also see people who are powerless over sex, porn, food, etc. God gave us all things to enjoy (except porn of course). Many of these people also know scripture. Anything can have power over us. Saying Jesus would never had made actual wine because it would be promoting sin is like saying Jesus would be promoting sin at the the miracle of the loaves and fishes because He may have fed someone overweight. He isn't responsible for our sin.

Nick
Dec 31st 2013, 05:49 PM
He is the solution for our sin. Sometimes a person needs to be completely broken in order to truly repent and ask in earnest for deliverance. And unfortunately many never get to that point and either overdose or die an alcoholic death. God is not going to interfere with our self-destruction. At times He does, but many others fall by the wayside. Anyone who has recovered from a seemingly hopeless state of mind and body attributes their recovery to the "Grace" of God. It wasn't mercy; it was grace that healed them from their affliction. When they start taking credit for their sobriety they usually lose it.