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Bro Berryl
Nov 16th 2013, 02:15 PM
We have had some great discussion in this forum concerning what a person must do to be saved, stay saved, and enjoy heaven. I came across Matthew 15:13 and wondered how that would fit in with our salvation today.

When Jesus spoke those words he was being confronted by the scribes and Pharisees concerning the washing of hands before a person eats, a tradition of men and not a commandment from God.
Jesus rebuked them for their hypocrisy and then declared unto them that every plant, (or to put it more plainly every teaching that is not from God) shall be rooted up.

The next verse (v.14) Jesus tells his disciples to leave them alone, they are blind leaders leading blind folks.

That's my take on what Jesus means what's yours and how do we take that teaching and apply it to our Christian churches today.

the Seeker
Nov 16th 2013, 03:01 PM
In order to understand what the Lord is saying here in this passage, we have to take a look at the Biblical definition of the word "fool". If you google Bible online, you can find some places that actually have differing translations of the Bible available to you. I can not just type out what fool is in Bible terms because about 9/10th of the book of Proverbs define a fool, and there are many differing definition that Solomon covers. One of them is the scheming and things that fools do. Jesus is making a reference to Proverbs, and with that reference, tells us that what Solomon wrote concerning the fool is indeed true.

More to the point, have you ever had a blind person show you around a place? It's difficult for them when their eyes fail them. So, usually, a blind person would require assistance from someone or something (in the case of seeing-eye dog) that has eyes. When the blind lead the blind down a road, who's going to see the part of the road that has fell victim to a sinkhole? If everyone walking there was blind, then I would have to conclude that no one will see it, and all of the blind will fall into a ditch.

I do not remember where I read this, but a wise saying is, "let fool be a fool". In Proverbs, the fool is listed, among many other things, as a person who fails to listen to wise instruction, In their arrogance, they believe that they know everything, and no one can teach them anything. So, when someone wants to be a fool, and you have given them wise counsel and they reject it, let them do as they do, since you can lead a horse to a well, but no one can force that horse to drink from it.

SirToady
Nov 21st 2013, 01:42 AM
We have had some great discussion in this forum concerning what a person must do to be saved, stay saved, and enjoy heaven. I came across Matthew 15:13 and wondered how that would fit in with our salvation today.

When Jesus spoke those words he was being confronted by the scribes and Pharisees concerning the washing of hands before a person eats, a tradition of men and not a commandment from God.
Jesus rebuked them for their hypocrisy and then declared unto them that every plant, (or to put it more plainly every teaching that is not from God) shall be rooted up.

The next verse (v.14) Jesus tells his disciples to leave them alone, they are blind leaders leading blind folks.

That's my take on what Jesus means what's yours and how do we take that teaching and apply it to our Christian churches today.

We have the answer if I understand your question correctly:

Matthew 15:
15 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Declare unto us this parable.
16 And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding?
17 Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?
18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
20 These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

Bro Berryl
Nov 25th 2013, 02:16 PM
We have the answer if I understand your question correctly:

Matthew 15:
15 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Declare unto us this parable.
16 And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding?
17 Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?
18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
20 These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

My question has more to do with our views of salvation than with washing hands. The Pharisee's were teaching their traditions over the commandments of God, that's what was coming out of them that was defiling them. Jesus makes it clear that keeping tradition over the commandments of God will cause a person to lose their reward.

Question: what traditions do we see in the religious world today that men put over the commandments of God?

SirToady
Nov 25th 2013, 05:45 PM
My question has more to do with our views of salvation than with washing hands. The Pharisee's were teaching their traditions over the commandments of God, that's what was coming out of them that was defiling them. Jesus makes it clear that keeping tradition over the commandments of God will cause a person to lose their reward.

Question: what traditions do we see in the religious world today that men put over the commandments of God?

Without trying to start a Holy War, isn't Sunday worship tradition an affront to the Ten Commandments since Saturday is the Sabbath (Day of Rest)?

Bro Berryl
Nov 26th 2013, 01:16 PM
Without trying to start a Holy War, isn't Sunday worship tradition an affront to the Ten Commandments since Saturday is the Sabbath (Day of Rest)?

I don't see Sunday worship as a tradition I understand it to be done because of the example of the early church, let me explain.

The early church that Jesus founded followed the teaching of the apostles;

Acts 2:42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

Four ways they observed worship are given right here, they followed the teaching of the apostles, they enjoyed fellowship by giving of the time, treasure, and talents. They broke bread in communion and they prayed.

Another example that confirms this is in Acts 20

Acts 20:7 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

Although it doesn't specifically say they prayed I can assume they did since I read of the other four observances. You might notice this was done on the first day of the week which is Sunday.

ewq1938
Nov 28th 2013, 04:22 AM
Without trying to start a Holy War, isn't Sunday worship tradition an affront to the Ten Commandments since Saturday is the Sabbath (Day of Rest)?

No, and working on a Saturday is no affront to God any longer. The Sabbath has matured into something far greater than a day you rested on and couldn't kindle a fire etc.

M_Wm_Ferguson_MTh
Dec 3rd 2013, 08:21 PM
After he healed some people who were "diseased" (Matt. 14:34-36), Jesus, in Matt. 15:1-20:
1: corrected the Pharisee's idea of ritual cleanliness, and
2: rebuked them for dishonoring their parents.

When Jesus responded to the complaint of some Pharisees about his disciples eating with unwashed hands, Jesus also pointed out that the Pharisees selfishly ignored their personal responsibilities to their parents, as if they owed them nothing for their youthful nourishing and nurturing, in violation of Moses' Law. Jesus reminded them that it was their God (YHVH/JeHoVaH) who commanded the people of Israel: "You must honor your father and your mother. The LORD your God has commanded you to do this" (Deut. 5:16 ERV; cp. Matt. 15:3, 6).

This incident was only one of several times that Jesus pointed out to the Jewish people and their religious leaders that their God (YHVH/JeHoVaH) was neither connected with, nor related to, either him (Jesus) or his spiritual "Father in heaven".

eyes2c
Dec 4th 2013, 05:58 PM
Hey Bro Berryl,

Jesus rebuked them for their hypocrisy and then declared unto them that every plant, (or to put it more plainly every teaching that is not from God) shall be rooted up.
Some great thoughts here but I am not sure that "plant" necessarily equates to teaching in this instance. Further down the same chapter we have the parable of the Wheat and the Tares.

24 Another parable He put forth to them, saying: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field; 25 but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way. 26 But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared. 27 So the servants of the owner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’ 28 He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ The servants said to him, ‘Do you want us then to go and gather them up?’ 29 But he said, ‘No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.”’”


For there are some who have a form of Godliness but lack the power thereof...2 Timothy 3

3 But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: 2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, 4 traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away! 6 For of this sort are those who creep into households and make captives of gullible women loaded down with sins, led away by various lusts, 7 always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. 8 Now as Jannes and Jambres resisted Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, disapproved concerning the faith; 9 but they will progress no further, for their folly will be manifest to all, as theirs also was].

Bless you!