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ChangedByHim
Nov 16th 2013, 08:16 PM
For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. (Ephesians 6:12 NKJV)

Which is greater in rank? Are wicked spirits in heavenly places and rulers of darkness over principalities and powers or the other way around?

episkopos
Nov 16th 2013, 08:54 PM
For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. (Ephesians 6:12 NKJV)

Which is greater in rank? Are wicked spirits in heavenly places and rulers of darkness over principalities and powers or the other way around?

They are the same but have different ranks. There are principalities over parts of cities, entire cities, states and countries...so the rank comes with the wider influence. The political divisions we have in governments represent what the principalities in darkness hold sway over.

In our city there are 10 or so districts...but all under the sway of the mayor. So it is with the governing squatters in the heavenly places. We need to take a city one district at a time...by bringing down the presence of God. We are to occupy the place of the principalities until the Lord returns or persecution puts an end to the rule of the saints.

Diggindeeper
Nov 16th 2013, 09:06 PM
i really don't mean to sound mean or hateful, but I'm wondering what difference does it make at all, ChangedByHim?

We have all the weapons and armour that we need to combat and defeat them either way. Honestly, I could care less about what kind of 'govenment' and the way it's run by ranks from the enemy.

Jake
Nov 16th 2013, 09:12 PM
It's important because if the enemy knows you better than you know your enemy, then you're in a bad spot. ;) An army going to war not knowing their enemy or the territory, would end in disaster for the pursuing army.

In regards to the OP, the wickedness in heavenly places is probably where the so called 'white house' would be and in that sense would hold the highest ranks of demons. Fortunately as DD has pointed out, we do have the armor of God to put on and do battle.

Francis Drake
Nov 16th 2013, 09:23 PM
i really don't mean to sound mean or hateful, but I'm wondering what difference does it make at all, ChangedByHim?

We have all the weapons and armour that we need to combat and defeat them either way. Honestly, I could care less about what kind of 'govenment' and the way it's run by ranks from the enemy.

Just wondering how much of the enemy have you defeated, and how much territory have you taken from him? Care to enlighten us about your battle campaign?

Aviyah
Nov 16th 2013, 09:54 PM
Just wondering how much of the enemy have you defeated, and how much territory have you taken from him? Care to enlighten us about your battle campaign?

Fought against minor battalions of demons today, and took down an officer trying to escape. Thought I was done for but received reinforcements from a captain in Michael's 45th. Gained multiple territories in Tampa Bay and assigned some angelic regiments to the area. Don't expect a reactionary force for some time. Thanks for asking!

2Lt. Aviyah B. Carter
DPA/STF-501
1993-Present

Diggindeeper
Nov 16th 2013, 09:59 PM
Just wondering how much of the enemy have you defeated, and how much territory have you taken from him? Care to enlighten us about your battle campaign?

You mean, you don't believe that Christ has already defeated the enemy? The only way he can truly harm us is if we fall for his deceit or his lies. We have the power of the name of Jesus and the same power that raised Christ from the dead that dwells in us. I don't claim to have any great 'deliverance ministry' or any such great accomplishment. I never desired to make a name for myself.

What I do know is that I see things I can (and have done) for years and years that others may not even know about. For example, I have 4 children, all wonderful Christians and so are their husbands/wives and all active in their churches and the work fo the Kingdom. All my 7 grandchildren are saved and 2 of them are in the ministry! The ONLY ones in our family who are not Christians are my 3 little great-grandchildren, the oldest being barely six years old. They are not old enough yet to become a Christian. But they will. We've all already been praying for them and they have living, breathing, walking, talking examples in their parents and grandparents who understand putting on the whole armour of God.

Also, if you look in the articles section, I have some true stories there about people the Lord sent to cross our path. Our home, even with a large family, was often about as busy with people under our roof as animals at an animal shelter.

Now, your turn to tall me about your battle campaign.................

ChangedByHim
Nov 16th 2013, 10:27 PM
It's important because if the enemy knows you better than you know your enemy, then you're in a bad spot. ;) An army going to war not knowing their enemy or the territory, would end in disaster for the pursuing army.

In regards to the OP, the wickedness in heavenly places is probably where the so called 'white house' would be and in that sense would hold the highest ranks of demons. Fortunately as DD has pointed out, we do have the armor of God to put on and do battle.

I've always operated under the same belief re the ranking, but I read a book recently that said Principalities and Powers were the highest rank. It just made me take a second look and was wondering what others thought.

Aviyah
Nov 16th 2013, 10:29 PM
I've always operated under the same belief re the ranking, but I read a book recently that said Principalities and Powers were the highest rank. It just made me take a second look and was wondering what others thought.

I think Satan promised his followers authority in the rebellion, and when they lost, he just gave them that same authority in "his kingdom". Whatever archangels fell with Satan are probably the chiefs under him. But it doesn't seem to matter to God because their leader can be defeated simply by knowing Scripture.

But yeah, I'd say there is a ranking system on both sides. Angels seem to have been created with that idea "programmed" into them. Or maybe angels such as Michael earned their ranks, I don't know, but it's definitely something they operate on.

The difference is, I think Satan wants us to know more about his army than God's. None of the loyal angels seem concerned with whether or not humans are aware of their ranks. I don't think they ever address themselves by rank, only by other angels (ex. the unnamed angel in Daniel addresses Michael as "one of the chief princes" but I'm not aware of Michael saying this about himself.)

Jake
Nov 16th 2013, 10:36 PM
I've always operated under the same belief re the ranking, but I read a book recently that said Principalities and Powers were the highest rank. It just made me take a second look and was wondering what others thought.

Are principalities ruled over even if they are rulers themselves? They control a smaller region, right?

Do you think principalities might be more powerful because of their greater influence? They would be closer and more directly involved?

Nick
Nov 16th 2013, 10:41 PM
i really don't mean to sound mean or hateful, but I'm wondering what difference does it make at all, ChangedByHim?

We have all the weapons and armour that we need to combat and defeat them either way. Honestly, I could care less about what kind of 'govenment' and the way it's run by ranks from the enemy.

The difference it makes is that we're dealing with an enemy that is the god of this world. Below is a Q&A on the question.

http://www.gotquestions.org/Satan-god-world.html

Question: "How is Satan god of this world (2 Corinthians 4:4)?"

Answer: The phrase “god of this world” (or “god of this age”) indicates that Satan is the major influence on the ideals, opinions, goals, hopes and views of the majority of people. His influence also encompasses the world’s philosophies, education, and commerce. The thoughts, ideas, speculations and false religions of the world are under his control and have sprung from his lies and deceptions.

Satan is also called the "prince of the power of the air" in Ephesians 2:2. He is the "ruler of this world" in John 12:31. These titles and many more signify Satan’s capabilities. To say, for example, that Satan is the "prince of the power of the air" is to signify that in some way he rules over the world and the people in it.

This is not to say that he rules the world completely; God is still sovereign. But it does mean that God, in His infinite wisdom, has allowed Satan to operate in this world within the boundaries God has set for him. When the Bible says Satan has power over the world, we must remember that God has given him domain over unbelievers only. Believers are no longer under the rule of Satan (Colossians 1:13). Unbelievers, on the other hand, are caught "in the snare of the devil" (2 Timothy 2:26), lie in the "power of the evil one" (1 John 5:19), and are in bondage to Satan (Ephesians 2:2).

So, when the Bible says that Satan is the "god of this world," it is not saying that he has ultimate authority. It is conveying the idea that Satan rules over the unbelieving world in a specific way. In 2 Corinthians 4:4, the unbeliever follows Satan's agenda: "The god of this world has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ." Satan's scheme includes promoting false philosophies in the world—philosophies that blind the unbeliever to the truth of the Gospel. Satan’s philosophies are the fortresses in which people are imprisoned, and they must be set free by Christ.

An example of one such false philosophy is the belief that man can earn God's favor by a certain act or acts. In almost every false religion, meriting God’s favor or earning eternal life is a predominant theme. Earning salvation by works, however, is contrary to biblical revelation. Man cannot work to earn God's favor; eternal life is a free gift (see Ephesians 2:8-9). And that free gift is available through Jesus Christ and Him alone (John 3:16; 14:6). You may ask why mankind does not simply receive the free gift of salvation (John 1:12). The answer is that Satan—the god of this world—has tempted mankind to follow his pride instead. Satan sets the agenda, the unbelieving world follows, and mankind continues to be deceived. It is no wonder that Scripture calls Satan a liar (John 8:44).

Old man
Nov 16th 2013, 11:31 PM
You mean, you don't believe that Christ has already defeated the enemy? The only way he can truly harm us is if we fall for his deceit or his lies. We have the power of the name of Jesus and the same power that raised Christ from the dead that dwells in us. I don't claim to have any great 'deliverance ministry' or any such great accomplishment. I never desired to make a name for myself.

What I do know is that I see things I can (and have done) for years and years that others may not even know about. For example, I have 4 children, all wonderful Christians and so are their husbands/wives and all active in their churches and the work fo the Kingdom. All my 7 grandchildren are saved and 2 of them are in the ministry! The ONLY ones in our family who are not Christians are my 3 little great-grandchildren, the oldest being barely six years old. They are not old enough yet to become a Christian. But they will. We've all already been praying for them and they have living, breathing, walking, talking examples in their parents and grandparents who understand putting on the whole armour of God.

Also, if you look in the articles section, I have some true stories there about people the Lord sent to cross our path. Our home, even with a large family, was often about as busy with people under our roof as animals at an animal shelter.

Now, your turn to tall me about your battle campaign.................

Hi Diggin. I agree with you. Scripture doesn't record that Jesus was that much concerned about their ranks He just dealt with the ones that crossed His path regardless. Nor did He go seeking them out on a demon hunt of some kind. Just the same with us we only need to be concerned with what the Lord allows our path to cross knowing that He has given us what we need for every situation if we look to Him as our source and not use His name as a formula as the seven sons of Sceva did (Acts 19:13-16).

BTW; I am glad to see you post again. Been praying for you. I hope you are well. :hug:

ChangedByHim
Nov 17th 2013, 12:04 AM
Hi Diggin. I agree with you. Scripture doesn't record that Jesus was that much concerned about their ranks He just dealt with the ones that crossed His path regardless. Nor did He go seeking them out on a demon hunt of some kind. Just the same with us we only need to be concerned with what the Lord allows our path to cross knowing that He has given us what we need for every situation if we look to Him as our source and not use His name as a formula as the seven sons of Sceva did (Acts 19:13-16).

BTW; I am glad to see you post again. Been praying for you. I hope you are well. :hug:

I'm not on a demon hunt. But the Holy Spirit thought it was important enough to inspire Paul to record the different levels. As good students, shouldn't we seek understanding of all of God's Word?

Diggindeeper
Nov 17th 2013, 01:26 AM
Hi Diggin. I agree with you. Scripture doesn't record that Jesus was that much concerned about their ranks He just dealt with the ones that crossed His path regardless. Nor did He go seeking them out on a demon hunt of some kind. Just the same with us we only need to be concerned with what the Lord allows our path to cross knowing that He has given us what we need for every situation if we look to Him as our source and not use His name as a formula as the seven sons of Sceva did (Acts 19:13-16).

BTW; I am glad to see you post again. Been praying for you. I hope you are well. :hug:

Thank you, friend. I have a bad back from a near fatal wreck I was in back in 2001. I had 3 broken vertebrae in my back and wore a body brace for a LONG TIME..Then still had back surgery again back in 2003 or 2004. The middle of Sept, I hurt my back again really bad. I tend to 'pet' my back and haven't had any problems since at least 2004. But I was having a colonscopy the middle of Sept. and started throwing up violently from the laxative prep the evening before. I know when it did a number on my back.

But, day by day, it got worse. I also was staying very nauseated. Couldn't keep down food or anything to drink. I ended up in the hospital from dehydration and my Potassium had dropped dangerously low. They were filling me with fluids, potassium, nausea meds and pain meds.

The surgeon, in trying to avoid surgery again, had me go to the hospital last Tuesday for an injection into 2 nerves in my back. This is something new, not like i'd had in epidurals in the past. But it has helped. I'm not hurting through to my stomach and down my leg to my knee any more, and I'm NOT nauseated any more, thank God. I was just too sick to be on here and so WEAK. I've worn my children out, by them coming here so much doing everything for me. So I am really glad to be able to concentrate and be back on here. FINALLY.

Thank you again for noticing my absence, friend. It means a lot to me.

Old man
Nov 17th 2013, 04:13 AM
I'm not on a demon hunt.
My apologies; I didn't mean it that way. Poor wording on my part. I just meant that Jesus didn't go out of His looking for them nor did it seem to matter to Him whether a demon had a particular level of authority and perhaps neither should we.


But the Holy Spirit thought it was important enough to inspire Paul to record the different levels.
Do you know he is talking about different levels or are you assuming that what he is talking about because that is what you have been taught to believe? Perhaps Paul recording what we think as being different levels actually could be different descriptions of the same thing for example in Rev. 20:2 "And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;" four different titles or names but all describing the same person. Could those "levels" simply be Paul giving various descriptions of the same things? Is there anything in what Paul says that would argue against this idea?

Or they could be the same levels but different departments of the enemy’s ranks. Such as when he describes the things that would try to separate us from the love of God in Christ (Rom. 8). Different things but the same effort to separate us or make us believe that is the result.

Regardless of which level or description (etc.) the solution is the same Eph. 6:11 “Put on the full armor of God, so that you will be able to stand firm against the schemes of the devil.”

True that in Daniel there are mention of "Princes" but he only mentions princes not any of the princes subordinates (except for the human people; would the people be the subordinates?). It may be logical to assume they have different ranks (I would be surprised if they didn't) but as far as what Paul is saying in his description it doesn’t give specific indication that it is about levels. Only about how we stand against and resist the devil and stand firm.


As good students, shouldn't we seek understanding of all of God's Word?
That depends; what is the context? What was Paul’s intent for including the information and what is your understanding of the intent and main purpose of that section of scripture? Do we concentrate on knowing the details of the enemy or do we focus on the intent of the passage and learn to defeat it regardless of how it comes to us. Is Paul wanting us to know the details of the enemy or the specifics about how all of them are defeated regardless of their level or rank? There is far more about how to defeat the enemy than about the enemy himself in that section. If you believe the passage is really about the ranking of the demon world then by all means study it that way but if you believe Paul’s purpose of including it is to focused more about how to defeat it (regardless of what "rank" it is) then focus on that.

Aviyah
Nov 17th 2013, 04:58 AM
I just meant that Jesus didn't go out of His looking for them nor did it seem to matter to Him whether a demon had a particular level of authority and perhaps neither should we.

I'm inclined to disagree based on His encounter with "Legion."

They came to the other side of the sea, to the country of the Gerasenes. And when Jesus had stepped out of the boat, immediately there met him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit. He lived among the tombs. And no one could bind him anymore, not even with a chain, for he had often been bound with shackles and chains, but he wrenched the chains apart, and he broke the shackles in pieces. No one had the strength to subdue him. Night and day among the tombs and on the mountains he was always crying out and cutting himself with stones. And when he saw Jesus from afar, he ran and fell down before him. And crying out with a loud voice, he said, “What have you to do with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I adjure you by God, do not torment me.” For he was saying to him, “Come out of the man, you unclean spirit!” And Jesus asked him, “What is your name?” He replied, “My name is Legion, for we are many.” And he begged him earnestly not to send them out of the country. (Mk. 5:1-10)

I wonder why Jesus was concerned with the demon's name? It seemed to play an important role in how He handled the situation. Legion and Satan are the only demons named in the Bible if we don't count Gog and Baal which might represent demons. If not, that means there are two angels mentioned for both sides (Michael and Gabriel vs. Legion and Satan).

Nick
Nov 17th 2013, 05:51 AM
Thank you, friend. I have a bad back from a near fatal wreck I was in back in 2001. I had 3 broken vertebrae in my back and wore a body brace for a LONG TIME..Then still had back surgery again back in 2003 or 2004. The middle of Sept, I hurt my back again really bad. I tend to 'pet' my back and haven't had any problems since at least 2004. But I was having a colonscopy the middle of Sept. and started throwing up violently from the laxative prep the evening before. I know when it did a number on my back.

But, day by day, it got worse. I also was staying very nauseated. Couldn't keep down food or anything to drink. I ended up in the hospital from dehydration and my Potassium had dropped dangerously low. They were filling me with fluids, potassium, nausea meds and pain meds.

The surgeon, in trying to avoid surgery again, had me go to the hospital last Tuesday for an injection into 2 nerves in my back. This is something new, not like i'd had in epidurals in the past. But it has helped. I'm not hurting through to my stomach and down my leg to my knee any more, and I'm NOT nauseated any more, thank God. I was just too sick to be on here and so WEAK. I've worn my children out, by them coming here so much doing everything for me. So I am really glad to be able to concentrate and be back on here. FINALLY.

Thank you again for noticing my absence, friend. It means a lot to me.

Really sorry to hear this Diggin. Sounds like a living nightmare. My prayers go out to you as well.

Old man
Nov 17th 2013, 05:51 AM
I wonder why Jesus was concerned with the demon's name? It seemed to play an important role in how He handled the situation.
They (for there were multiple demons) were still going to be cast out regardless of what the name was. The reason “he” was called legion was because of the multiple demons present.

Could it be that this was a field trip for the disciples to see the power and authority of Christ? The situation of having a multitude of demons (enough to fill an entire herd of individual pigs) all in one spot and answerable to Christ. His disciples seeing the authority of Christ when He cast out so many demons at one time might be more to the main issue here than the importance of its name (that name only revealing that there was a large quantity of demons).

I am not trying to downplay the importance in the life that was delivered but Christ did not allow that man to follow Him but instead sent him back to his own people who had just rejected Him. There is good reason to believe that this man was a gentile and Jesus was sent to the Jews and only on rare occasions ministered to gentiles. So the main focus might be what the disciples (and we) should be learning here about Christ.

I have not looked into this but could the “name” in this case be more representative of the condition than that of the actual identity of a specific demon since the “name” Legion was because there were many of them there?


Legion and Satan are the only demons named in the Bible if we don't count Gog and Baal which might represent demons. If not, that means there are two angels mentioned for both sides (Michael and Gabriel vs. Legion and Satan).

Many believe Apollyon of Rev 9:11 is a demon. (Just adding another possible named demon to your list)


Rev 9:11 “They have as king over them, the angel of the abyss; his name in Hebrew is Abaddon, and in the Greek he has the name Apollyon.”

ChangedByHim
Nov 17th 2013, 12:20 PM
Thank you again for noticing my absence, friend. It means a lot to me.

You were missed. I'm very sorry to hear about all of the back problems. Hopefully those injections continue to work.

Francis Drake
Nov 17th 2013, 03:02 PM
I think Satan promised his followers authority in the rebellion, and when they lost, he just gave them that same authority in "his kingdom". Whatever archangels fell with Satan are probably the chiefs under him. But it doesn't seem to matter to God because their leader can be defeated simply by knowing Scripture.

But yeah, I'd say there is a ranking system on both sides. Angels seem to have been created with that idea "programmed" into them. Or maybe angels such as Michael earned their ranks, I don't know, but it's definitely something they operate on.

The difference is, I think Satan wants us to know more about his army than God's. None of the loyal angels seem concerned with whether or not humans are aware of their ranks. I don't think they ever address themselves by rank, only by other angels (ex. the unnamed angel in Daniel addresses Michael as "one of the chief princes" but I'm not aware of Michael saying this about himself.)

Yes, I believe that it is very useful to have an understanding of the way the demonic realm operates. However when it comes to an actual conflict against a particular demonic power, what is far more significant is to know the status of who exactly is on our side!
I therefore don't get too worried about what rank the enemy has, I trust that God is at my side in the battle.

Jesus makes that clear when, expressly as a man, (ie. son of man) he cast out demons. "If I cast out demons by the spirit of God, then has the kingdom of God come upon you."
Thus Jesus entirely as a man, cast demons out not by his own eternal power, but by Holy Spirit power. Should we do any different, when warfare and deliverance what we are commanded to do?

Also it is far more needful to know what rank we have in the scheme of things.
Eph2v4. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5. even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6. and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,…

God has placed us, the saints of God, on the throne with Jesus. That puts us higher than Satan and all his ranks.
It is from this position alone that we can go to war, not because the leadership has appointed us to the ministry team!

Francis Drake
Nov 17th 2013, 03:12 PM
I've always operated under the same belief re the ranking, but I read a book recently that said Principalities and Powers were the highest rank. It just made me take a second look and was wondering what others thought.

It is good to understand these things, but if you have an enemy in your gun sights, are you going to worry about his high rank before pull the trigger?

There are many times when doing deliverance when I have just resorted to the description of the issue. ie. You demonic power that is doing this, this and this, I command you.
Don't give a damn about its status when driving it out. It flees anyway.

Same is true when dealing with powers over an institution. I just describe it by function before I issue orders. The rank is his problem not mine.

ChangedByHim
Nov 17th 2013, 03:25 PM
It is good to understand these things, but if you have an enemy in your gun sights, are you going to worry about his high rank before pull the trigger?

There are many times when doing deliverance when I have just resorted to the description of the issue. ie. You demonic power that is doing this, this and this, I command you.
Don't give a damn about its status when driving it out. It flees anyway.

Same is true when dealing with powers over an institution. I just describe it by function before I issue orders. The rank is his problem not mine.

My question is not deliverance related. I realize that it may have no practical application. However, this is a passage that I teach on frequently and I strive to be accurate. So far, I really haven't got much input regarding this specific question.

Francis Drake
Nov 17th 2013, 04:26 PM
You mean, you don't believe that Christ has already defeated the enemy? The only way he can truly harm us is if we fall for his deceit or his lies. We have the power of the name of Jesus and the same power that raised Christ from the dead that dwells in us. I don't claim to have any great 'deliverance ministry' or any such great accomplishment. I never desired to make a name for myself.
.....................
..........................
Now, your turn to tall me about your battle campaign.................

Having been involved in spiritual warfare for over 30 years, I am well aware that Christ has already defeated Satan. I am also aware that we are still at war, or at least we should be. Instead, most christians are fast asleep at their posts.

The sad fact is that Satan controls the majority of christians for the reason you state above, falling for his deceit and lies. The majority of the church are taught that Satan cannot touch them as christians, thus they have no defense against him and just attribute his attacks to psychological or physical problems that a doctor can deal with. Thus Satan continues to reign over the sons of God.

If we are not into the deliverance ministry, then we are into defeat. If we are not driving the enemy out, then as when Israel entered the land, the inhabitants remained and became thorns in their sides, and they ended up serving their gods. There is no excuse for a christian not casting demons out, as the normal way of life.
There was no place for conscientious objectors in the army of Israel. Sadly the army of God today is filled with christians using every excuse under the sun not to go to war against the demonic realm right by their back doorstep or in their own living room.

As to my own campaign. I have not ceased to war for the last 30 years, and it is increasing as we grow and God gives further understanding of the wiles of Satan. That has involved countless personal deliverances, plus many stages of national spiritual warfare. I have witnessed the effect at many levels and I know that correct warfare breaks through when years of other activity has brought no change.

Just to give context. The following is not meant to be a boast, but just relating facts as they actually happened.
In the mid 80s, Britain was in the grip of massive union problems. The communist union leader, who shall remain nameless, was an evil man. He declared that with his own army, the union, he would bring down the legitimate government of the land. His tyrannical ranting at the podium looked and sounded just like Hitler, and he mesmerised the workers in the same way. He brought massive violence and even death in the wake of his words.

The church I was in had regular prayer meetings for the nation, but it was quite frustrating because they tended to be handwringing and whining pleas for peace, rather than acting in spiritual authority.
In the middle of one of these meetings, under the anointing of the Holy Spirit, I stood up and simply proclaimed, "I command a spirit of division to enter the xxxxx union headquarters, and that it becomes split it from top to bottom, that there be no more unity in its midst, and that xxxxxxx becomes a nobody from this time onwards."

I was immediately shouted down by the leaders, 'You can't do that, its witchcraft.....etc." They were very angry with me. However, I knew in my spirit that it was of the Lord, as I had read what Micah had said about God sending a lying spirit to lure Aab to his death.

Within 2 days of that commend, it was all over the national news. The union headquarters had been hit by a massive split. One of his assistant leaders had walked out and formed another union. He had taken a huge chunk of membership with him.

The strike collapsed and the national leader effectively went into obscurity.
The interesting thing is that the rebellious union leader was a Christian!

This is no more than what we are supposed to be doing, when the church wakes up!

Francis Drake
Nov 17th 2013, 05:09 PM
My question is not deliverance related. I realize that it may have no practical application. However, this is a passage that I teach on frequently and I strive to be accurate. So far, I really haven't got much input regarding this specific question.

I understand. looking through Strongs is all I can do.

Rulers-------Arche
746 arxḗ – properly, from the beginning (temporal sense), i.e. "the initial (starting) point"; (figuratively) what comes first and therefore is chief (foremost), i.e. has the priority because ahead of the rest ("preeminent").

Authorities----exousia
1849 eksousía (from 1537 /ek, "out from," which intensifies 1510 /eimí, "to be, being as a right or privilege") – authority, conferred power; delegated empowerment ("authorization"), operating in a designated jurisdiction.

Cosmic powers, world rulers.---kosmokratoras
2888 kosmokrátōr (from 2889 /kósmos, "world" and 2902 /kratéō, "to rule") – properly, world-ruler, referring to Satan (demons) influencing the lives of worldly people (used only in Eph 6:12).

Spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly realms-------epouraniois
2032 epouránios (an adjective, derived from 1909 /epí, "on, fitting," which intensifies 3772 /ouranós, "heaven") – properly, heavenly, referring to the impact of heaven's influence on the particular situation or person.

This list seems to be in ascending order. This is more evident in the last two. World rulers followed by heavenly rulers.
Although cosmos, ( ie. as in cosmonaut) can be used for the universe, it is usually referring to the order of this world.

I would therefore see it as spreading from local operations, all the way up to heavenly operations.

This is a cheating cut and paste job. I am sure that better men than me can improve on it.

Diggindeeper
Nov 17th 2013, 05:35 PM
I remember the time when my oldest son was young and got involved in 'socializing' with co-workers and came home drunk ONE TIME. My husband and I put him to bed (after he puked all over himself) and decided not to try to say anything that night. We then went to bed, but didn't sleep much. Instead, we prayed way into the night.

The next day, after his hangover was relieved somewhat, we had a talk with him. We told him that being past the age of 21 (the legal age then!), we could no longer control his actions. BUT, we made it clear that one more time like the previous night....he would be asked to move out and live on his own, with his own decisions. But we also made it clear that we were not just going to 'hand him over' to the devil. That we realized we were in a battle for his soul and we could not just walk away.

We both knew that 'drinking' had almost destroyed our marriage when our son was yet a boy and we knew where he was headed. Then, my husband began to pray. Not just pray, but also INFORM satan that he was trespassing on our children and we would not stand for that. Using the name of Jesus and the power of his blood, we commanded the enemy to turn him loose and we proceeded to thank God that he could (and would) deliver our son from the clutches of the enemy.

We prayed that every day for a while. Maybe two weeks or three. Our son finally repented (at a church service!) and never, ever drank again.

This taught us to pray daily for our children and to remind the enemy OUT LOUD every day that he had no right to trespass in our home and not allowed to take our children captive.

We saw no reason to take him or the other 3 children to a 'deliverance' ministry. We simply had strong confidence that God was still as able as when the 3 Hebrew boys were thrown into that fiery furnace! They told that Old king..."Our God is able to deliver us, BUT...even if He does not...still, we will serve Him! God was able way back then, and he's still able to this very day!

luigi
Nov 17th 2013, 05:37 PM
I also see it as an ascending order in hierarchy, with the first lesser authorities having their strings pulled by the latter higher authorities.

Aviyah
Nov 17th 2013, 07:00 PM
They (for there were multiple demons) were still going to be cast out regardless of what the name was. The reason “he” was called legion was because of the multiple demons present.

It's tricky because the demon(s) addresses itself in the singular and plural. It says, "My name is Legion, for we are many." Perhaps this is the leader speaking as a representative. But yes, he/they would have been cast out regardless of the name - I just think it is curious why Jesus asked this particular demon's name and not any other time recorded.


I have not looked into this but could the “name” in this case be more representative of the condition than that of the actual identity of a specific demon since the “name” Legion was because there were many of them there?

I'd say it was a specific demon only because it says "My name" and not "Our name." Perhaps the one who spoke gave himself this name because of his following. Anyway it's a trivial issue because like you said, he gets cast out anyway!


Many believe Apollyon of Rev 9:11 is a demon.

Oh yeah, I forgot about that one. Perhaps it is a demon since John had already established that he knew who Satan was and wouldn't have any reason to call him something else IMO.

Aviyah
Nov 17th 2013, 08:54 PM
The war between angels and demons is actually a subject I've been really intrigued about for a long time (even before being a Christian, but now that I am in Christ, I can study with Biblical lenses). Hopefully this post won't cause too much controversy, but I actually think there are a lot of demons named in Scripture, but it is subtle. But first, read this so you know I'm not just pulling this out of thin air and imagination. Here Paul talks about idolatry and explicitly associates paganism to demon worship:

For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth—as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”— yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist … What do I imply then? That food offered to idols is anything, or that an idol is anything? No, I imply that what pagans sacrifice they offer to demons and not to God. I do not want you to be participants with demons. You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons. You cannot partake of the table of the Lord and the table of demons. (1 Cor. 8:5-6, 10:19-21)

I'm inclined to take Paul literally here because he basically repeats the statement in different ways for emphasis. Based on this, there may be more demons mentioned in addition to Satan and Legion (if not simply synonyms for Satan, which I doubt). Here are some of the names of false pagan gods who received sacrifices and idol worship:

- Belial (probably Satan)
- Baal, -perith, -Peor, and -zebub
- Ishtar the Queen of Heaven
- Tammuz
- Chemosh
- Molech
- Succoth-Benoth
- Nergal
- Ashima
- Dagon
- Nibhaz & Tartak
- Adrammelech & Anammelech
- (Zeus/Jupiter and Artemis in NT)

Just something to consider. Perhaps they were indeed the names of demons, or demons simply associated themselves with the idea of these false-gods to recieve worship by "proxy." Angels loyal to God will not allow themselves to be worshipped by men - I believe this really shows that the danger of idolatry is greater than most people realized at that time and even today.

Vakeros
Nov 17th 2013, 09:29 PM
Just something to consider. Perhaps they were indeed the names of demons, or demons simply associated themselves with the idea of these false-gods to recieve worship by "proxy." Angels loyal to God will not allow themselves to be worshipped by men - I believe this really shows that the danger of idolatry is greater than most people realized at that time and even today.
Your final point is very important. Note also some others you missed which tie into what CBH had to say was in regards to Daniel where Gabriel is supported by Michael (I think) who fought against the Persian principality.
I think along the lines of Old Man that there isn't much in the way of heirarchy, but rather the list is descriptions of types. Like we have cherubim and seraphim which I don't think denote rank, but rather role.

Aviyah
Nov 17th 2013, 09:36 PM
Your final point is very important. Note also some others you missed which tie into what CBH had to say was in regards to Daniel where Gabriel is supported by Michael (I think) who fought against the Persian principality.
I think along the lines of Old Man that there isn't much in the way of heirarchy, but rather the list is descriptions of types. Like we have cherubim and seraphim which I don't think denote rank, but rather role.

I think there must be some rank involved just based on Revelation 12:7 "Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon." Michael seems to be the leader of the angels in this war.

And you're right, most people assume the Prince of Persia was Satan, but it may have simply been a title for a different demon in charge of Persia. I didn't list this one though since it's not really a name and I'm not sure if it was a pagan god.

luigi
Nov 18th 2013, 12:14 PM
I would like to provide an example of this hierarchy.
An article in last Sundays New York Times quoting an article from the Wall Street Journal: "10 Things Billionaires Won't Tell You".
The super rich represent less than 0.0001 per cent of the worlds population, yet they own approximately 40% of all wealth.
Over the last year their net wealth has increased by 17%.
Unless my math is wrong, this means that the worlds remaining inhabitants had approximately 7.5% less wealth than the previous year.
While this redistribution of wealth to the super rich may be OK under good economic times, it appears to me to be suicidal policy when considering the world is in the grips of an economic recession or economic depression, depending in which country you reside.
Assuming therefore, the super rich are neither suicidal nor idiots, the only explanation I see for their actions, is their masters (the upper hierarchy of powers of darkness) pulling the strings of the super rich (their servants), through their love of mammon (greed).

While this may appear counter intuitive that the forces of darkness would willingly destroy their own systems throughout the world, this may be in preparation to usher in the new system of the beast, which could only come about if the worlds current systems were to collapse.

Vakeros
Nov 19th 2013, 02:29 PM
I think there must be some rank involved just based on Revelation 12:7 "Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon." Michael seems to be the leader of the angels in this war.

And you're right, most people assume the Prince of Persia was Satan, but it may have simply been a title for a different demon in charge of Persia. I didn't list this one though since it's not really a name and I'm not sure if it was a pagan god.
There is indeed a ranking given in the Bible, but it is of only two levels. Archangels like Michael and Satan and their angels. That is it. No other levels. Note also that no other Archangels are specified in the Bible though Apollyon may have been as he seems to be the leader of the angels who were placed in the pit - that group doesn't include Satan or his angels.