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SirToady
Nov 20th 2013, 08:33 PM
If December 5 B.C. is Christís incarnate birth things must have happened fairly quickly before the family went into hiding in Egypt. Herod dies in March/April 4 B.C. Depending on how far from the east the magi came from it could have began months earlier in order to arrive in time to provide Joseph and Mary with the means to make such a journey unto Egypt. Surely Herod would have had the magi followed to learn of the new born Kingís location.

Luke 2:
21. And when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising (Leviticus 12:3) of the child, his name was called Jesus, which was so named of the angel before he was conceived in the womb.
22. And when the days of her purification (Leviticus 12:4) according to the law of Moses were accomplished, they brought him to Jerusalem, to present him to the Lord;
23. (As it is written in the law of the Lord, Every male that openeth the womb shall be called holy to the Lord;)
24. And to offer a sacrifice according to that which is said in the law of the Lord, A pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons (Leviticus 12:6-8).
39. And when they had performed all things according to the law of the Lord, they returned into Galilee, to their own city Nazareth.

Christ would have been circumcised on his 9th day, but Mary would not have been allowed within the Temple grounds until after her purification 33 days later (January / February) when they both brought Christ to the Temple to present him to the Lord and to offer sacrifice. It may be that Luke 2:39 is referring to when Joseph and Mary returned to Nazareth from Egypt instead of after the offer of sacrifice in Jerusalem. Bethlehem is only about 5 miles from Jerusalem where Nazareth is about 50 miles. It seems that Herod the Great narrowly missed his chance at slaying the Christ child.

keck553
Nov 20th 2013, 08:42 PM
What makes you think His circumcision was done at the Temple?

SirToady
Nov 20th 2013, 08:55 PM
What makes you think His circumcision was done at the Temple?

That is a logical assumption on my part considering their close proximity to the Temple, however you are correct, the scripture does not specify where it happened, only that it did happen.

Aviyah
Nov 20th 2013, 09:10 PM
If December 5 B.C. is Christ’s incarnate birth

Why would Rome call a census in winter?

SirToady
Nov 20th 2013, 09:16 PM
Why would Rome call a census in winter?

That is why I include "If". Personally, I believe it would have been on the first day of the jewish year (March/April 5 B.C.), same day as when the Passover begins. I could go on about this but that is off topic on this post.

Vakeros
Nov 20th 2013, 10:18 PM
Just to respond to the thread, one key point is that they went to the temple after the circumcision and presented the child and the Anna and Simeon prayed etc. WHere the circumcision occurred isn't stated, but is irrelevant for the timeline.
I personally don't believe Jesus was born in 5 BC, this in part because Herod didn't die in 4 BC. There are reasons for concluding 4 BC, but also reasons for 1 BC which are based around what Josephus wrote. 1 BC also ties into Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy, where as 4 BC doesn't. 1 BC matches with 34 AD for the crucifixion and also with the age Jesus was meant to be when He started His ministry and as that ties into the various rulers at that time. So Jesus was born probably around September 2 BC.

SirToady
Nov 21st 2013, 12:18 AM
Just to respond to the thread, one key point is that they went to the temple after the circumcision and presented the child and the Anna and Simeon prayed etc. WHere the circumcision occurred isn't stated, but is irrelevant for the timeline.
I personally don't believe Jesus was born in 5 BC, this in part because Herod didn't die in 4 BC. There are reasons for concluding 4 BC, but also reasons for 1 BC which are based around what Josephus wrote. 1 BC also ties into Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy, where as 4 BC doesn't. 1 BC matches with 34 AD for the crucifixion and also with the age Jesus was meant to be when He started His ministry and as that ties into the various rulers at that time. So Jesus was born probably around September 2 BC.

I have heard the argument for 2 BC - 1 BC, but I tend to side with the 4 BC of the Jews (The day of his death was marked in the Jewish calendar as a festival). Im not sure why Herod's death needs to tie into any prophecy. In regards to 34 AD I am not so sure that date corresponds with the astronomical data / jewish festivals as good as 31 AD.

Notice the Bibliography
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/7598-herod-i

decrumpit
Nov 21st 2013, 12:54 AM
Bethlehem is only about 5 miles from Jerusalem where Nazareth is about 50 miles. It seems that Herod the Great narrowly missed his chance at slaying the Christ child.

As has been mentioned, why does Jesus have to be circumcised at the Temple?


It may be that Luke 2:39 is referring to when Joseph and Mary returned to Nazareth from Egypt instead of after the offer of sacrifice in Jerusalem.

Most scholars would agree with you. The progression was:

1. Born in Bethlehem
2. Fled to Egypt.
3. Returned to Nazareth.


Why would Rome call a census in winter?

The census was likely not a Roman census, but a provincial one that respected the traditions of the Jews (i.e. allowing them to register in ancestral cities). Funny, I was just reading about this exact thing. Time for some Christian apologetics!

http://www.etsjets.org/files/JETS-PDFs/27/27-1/27-1-pp043-052_JETS.pdf

SirToady
Nov 21st 2013, 01:13 AM
As has been mentioned, why does Jesus have to be circumcised at the Temple?



Most scholars would agree with you. The progression was:

1. Born in Bethlehem
2. Fled to Egypt.
3. Returned to Nazareth.



The census was likely not a Roman census, but a provincial one that respected the traditions of the Jews (i.e. allowing them to register in ancestral cities). Funny, I was just reading about this exact thing. Time for some Christian apologetics!

http://www.etsjets.org/files/JETS-PDFs/27/27-1/27-1-pp043-052_JETS.pdf

Ok, here we are going off topic LOL so let me submit this in regards to the "Census"
As of yet - to my knowledge - there is no record found that documents a decree by Caesar Augustus that all the world should be taxed when Cyrenius was governor of Syria. The census, which was its official name in Rome, was originally held every five years. *Cyrenius (P. Sulpicius Quirinius) may have been in Syria as early as 10 B.C. on a military campaign and established his seat of government as well as his headquarters in Syria between 10 and 7 B.C. He carried out a census as governor of Syria in 6 A.D.* If 6 A.D. was consistent with the Roman 5-year census period we can go back 10 years to 5 B.C. which is the latest that Christ’s birth could occur in December.
* The Bible as History by Werner Keller

Vakeros
Nov 21st 2013, 07:56 PM
I have heard the argument for 2 BC - 1 BC, but I tend to side with the 4 BC of the Jews (The day of his death was marked in the Jewish calendar as a festival). Im not sure why Herod's death needs to tie into any prophecy. In regards to 34 AD I am not so sure that date corresponds with the astronomical data / jewish festivals as good as 31 AD.

Notice the Bibliography
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/7598-herod-i
It isn't Herod's death that is prophesied but the Messiah's coming. In addition the dates we have for when John and Jesus started their respective ministries are given with dates. Finally 31 AD isn't I believe possible with a Thursday crucifixion. 34 AD is possible.

SirToady
Nov 21st 2013, 08:08 PM
It isn't Herod's death that is prophesied but the Messiah's coming. In addition the dates we have for when John and Jesus started their respective ministries are given with dates. Finally 31 AD isn't I believe possible with a Thursday crucifixion. 34 AD is possible.

You have dates for when John and Jesus started their ministries? Please share that with me.

Vakeros
Nov 22nd 2013, 12:28 AM
You have dates for when John and Jesus started their ministries? Please share that with me.
Those dates are based around Luke 3 - 15th year of Tiberius Caesar is 29 or 30 AD as his reign started on 18th September 14 AD. There are other connections with the others mentioned and when Pontius Pilate was in power. This ties into the start of John's ministry and Jesus started we presume about 6 months later, so easily in 30 or 31 AD.

SirToady
Nov 22nd 2013, 01:57 AM
Those dates are based around Luke 3 - 15th year of Tiberius Caesar is 29 or 30 AD as his reign started on 18th September 14 AD. There are other connections with the others mentioned and when Pontius Pilate was in power. This ties into the start of John's ministry and Jesus started we presume about 6 months later, so easily in 30 or 31 AD.

I think I already have that from my Crucified in 34 AD Thread. I found this date "Based on the date of Jesusí birth provided by Clement of Alexandria (ca. 200 AD), Jesus would have been born on May 14, 6 BC (Faulstich 1998:109-112)." Now how in the world Clement came up with this I have no clue but it also is possible.

SirToady
Nov 22nd 2013, 03:21 AM
This ties into the start of John's ministry and Jesus started we presume about 6 months later, so easily in 30 or 31 AD.

Ok, I once again checked the data and apparently 34 AD is the best candidate. I apparently was hung up on the 1st of Nisan instead of Passover (14th Nisan). Again, I am assuming the astronomical data is accurate. While this 34AD is nice and neat for a Herod death of 2BC, 1 BC Im afraid it is still 4BC.

Vakeros
Nov 22nd 2013, 09:38 AM
Ok, I once again checked the data and apparently 34 AD is the best candidate. I apparently was hung up on the 1st of Nisan instead of Passover (14th Nisan). Again, I am assuming the astronomical data is accurate. While this 34AD is nice and neat for a Herod death of 2BC, 1 BC Im afraid it is still 4BC.
Why do you get hung up on 4 BC - what is there that proves that date to you? I find far less evidence for 4 BC than 1 BC.

SirToady
Nov 22nd 2013, 01:47 PM
Why do you get hung up on 4 BC - what is there that proves that date to you? I find far less evidence for 4 BC than 1 BC.

Josephus (file:///Users/robertbrotherton/cathen/08522a.htm) tells us (Antiquities, XVII, viii, 1), that Herod (file:///Users/robertbrotherton/cathen/07289c.htm) died "having reigned 34 years de facto since the death of Antigonus, and 37 years de jure since the Roman decree (file:///Users/robertbrotherton/cathen/04670a.htm) declaring him king". We know (file:///Users/robertbrotherton/cathen/08673a.htm) also that he began to reign in the consulship of Domitius Calvinus and Asinius Pollio, 40 B.C., in the 184thOlympiad (Ant., xiv, 5); and that he became king de facto in the consulship of Marcus Agrippa and Canidius Ballus, in the 185th Olympiad (Ant., XIV, xvi, 4). These calculations do not make it sure whether Herod (file:///Users/robertbrotherton/cathen/07289c.htm) died in the year 3, 4, or 5 B. C., but it is most probable that it was in the year 4 B.C.That date is corroborated by an eclipse of the moon which occurred (Ant., XVII, vi, 4) on the very night that Herod (file:///Users/robertbrotherton/cathen/07289c.htm) burnt Matthias alive, a few days before his own death; for there was an eclipse of the moon from 12 March to 13 March, 4 B.C. All this points to the fact that Herod (file:///Users/robertbrotherton/cathen/07289c.htm) died in the year 4 B. C., and that so Our Saviour (file:///Users/robertbrotherton/cathen/08374c.htm) must have been born before that date (file:///Users/robertbrotherton/cathen/04636c.htm).

Source Catholic Encyclopedia

Vakeros
Nov 22nd 2013, 04:07 PM
Josephus (file:///Users/robertbrotherton/cathen/08522a.htm) tells us (Antiquities, XVII, viii, 1), that Herod (file:///Users/robertbrotherton/cathen/07289c.htm) died "having reigned 34 years de facto since the death of Antigonus, and 37 years de jure since the Roman decree (file:///Users/robertbrotherton/cathen/04670a.htm) declaring him king". We know (file:///Users/robertbrotherton/cathen/08673a.htm) also that he began to reign in the consulship of Domitius Calvinus and Asinius Pollio, 40 B.C., in the 184thOlympiad (Ant., xiv, 5); and that he became king de facto in the consulship of Marcus Agrippa and Canidius Ballus, in the 185th Olympiad (Ant., XIV, xvi, 4). These calculations do not make it sure whether Herod (file:///Users/robertbrotherton/cathen/07289c.htm) died in the year 3, 4, or 5 B. C., but it is most probable that it was in the year 4 B.C.That date is corroborated by an eclipse of the moon which occurred (Ant., XVII, vi, 4) on the very night that Herod (file:///Users/robertbrotherton/cathen/07289c.htm) burnt Matthias alive, a few days before his own death; for there was an eclipse of the moon from 12 March to 13 March, 4 B.C. All this points to the fact that Herod (file:///Users/robertbrotherton/cathen/07289c.htm) died in the year 4 B. C., and that so Our Saviour (file:///Users/robertbrotherton/cathen/08374c.htm) must have been born before that date (file:///Users/robertbrotherton/cathen/04636c.htm).

Source Catholic Encyclopedia
Let's assume for a moment that Herod became King in 40 BC - 37 years later then would be 3 BC. However:
Josephus gave an impossible date (one that did not exist) for Herod's appointment as king.
He said it was in the 184th Olympiad, which ended in midyear 40 B.C. and that it was in the consulship of Calvinus and Pollio, which began in late 40 and extended into 39.
Those can't both be right, but one of them could be. Which?
The evidence points to 39 B.C., because we have another source on this: The Roman historians Appian and Dio Cassius.
Appian wrote a history of the Roman civil wars in which he discusses the appointment of Herod in the midst of other events.
There is another clue though which is when was Jerusalem captured by Herod. This was either in 37 BC or 36 BC.
By adding these clues together we get a date of the earliest of 3 BC, but possibly 2 BC.
However there is another factor which we need to add into the mix. Did Josephus count whole years of reign or only partial ones? The above dates assume a partial count. That is in the 37th year, in the 34th year. However the way Josephus writes points to actually more than 37 and 34 but not 38 and 35. This would thus point to a date of either 2 or 1 BC.
There is one final bit of information we have to pinpoint the date of Herod's death. This is that Herod died between a lunar eclipse and Passover.
While there was a partial lunar eclipsed before Passover in 4 B.C. there was a total lunar eclipse before Passover in 1 B.C.
Since 4 B.C. is outside the range indicated above, and since the 1 B.C. lunar eclipse fits the situation better, that lets us decide between 2 B.C. and 1 B.C. in favour of the latter.
This then leads to Jesus being born either in 3 or 2 BC.

SirToady
Nov 22nd 2013, 06:52 PM
Let's assume for a moment that Herod became King in 40 BC - 37 years later then would be 3 BC. However:
Josephus gave an impossible date (one that did not exist) for Herod's appointment as king.
He said it was in the 184th Olympiad, which ended in midyear 40 B.C. and that it was in the consulship of Calvinus and Pollio, which began in late 40 and extended into 39.
Those can't both be right, but one of them could be. Which?
The evidence points to 39 B.C., because we have another source on this: The Roman historians Appian and Dio Cassius.
Appian wrote a history of the Roman civil wars in which he discusses the appointment of Herod in the midst of other events.
There is another clue though which is when was Jerusalem captured by Herod. This was either in 37 BC or 36 BC.
By adding these clues together we get a date of the earliest of 3 BC, but possibly 2 BC.
However there is another factor which we need to add into the mix. Did Josephus count whole years of reign or only partial ones? The above dates assume a partial count. That is in the 37th year, in the 34th year. However the way Josephus writes points to actually more than 37 and 34 but not 38 and 35. This would thus point to a date of either 2 or 1 BC.
There is one final bit of information we have to pinpoint the date of Herod's death. This is that Herod died between a lunar eclipse and Passover.
While there was a partial lunar eclipsed before Passover in 4 B.C. there was a total lunar eclipse before Passover in 1 B.C.
Since 4 B.C. is outside the range indicated above, and since the 1 B.C. lunar eclipse fits the situation better, that lets us decide between 2 B.C. and 1 B.C. in favour of the latter.
This then leads to Jesus being born either in 3 or 2 BC.

http://archive.org/stream/historyofjew02grae/historyofjew02grae_djvu.txt

A sidebar:
A legend of later date tells how Herod was not satisfied with
shedding the blood of his own children, but how, in a passion,
he ordered all children under two years of age in Bethlehem
and the surrounding country to be massacred, because he
had heard that the Messiah of the House of David had been
born in that place ! But Herod, criminal as he
was, was innocent of this crime.

Herod's last thoughts dwelt, however, upon
bloodshed. He insisted upon the most respected
men of Judaea being brought to Jericho, and im-
prisoned in the great public arena, where they were
closely guarded ; he then left orders with his sister
Salome and her husband that directly after his
death had taken place they should be all mas-
sacred by his body-guard, so that the entire nation
might be mourning their loved ones, and no one
would have the heart to rejoice over his demise.
Murder filled his thoughts from the first moment of
his public life until he drew his last breath. He
died five days after the execution of Antipater, in
the sixty-ninth year of his life and the thirty-seventh
of his reign, in the spring of the year 4 b. c. His
flatterers called him " Herod the Great," but the
nation only knew him as " the Hasmonsean slave."
Whilst his body was being taken in all pomp to its
resting-place in Herodium, under the escort of the
Thracian, German and Gallic body-guard, the
nation joyfully celebrated the day as a semi-festival.

SirToady
Nov 22nd 2013, 07:25 PM
Just to respond to the thread, one key point is that they went to the temple after the circumcision and presented the child and the Anna and Simeon prayed etc. WHere the circumcision occurred isn't stated, but is irrelevant for the timeline.

Getting back on this thread topic, The child would not be presented by both parents until 40 days after his/her birth because of the purification law. Another opinion suggests that since a lamb wasn't offered as a sacrifice (which would have been offered since they had the means due to the magi) that the magi had not yet met with Joseph and Mary until after the ceremony. Some theologians even suggest there was no decree whatsoever and that the slaughter of the innocent was merely legend. I guess what I am pointing out is that the decree -if it occurred (I believe it did) - was not within days of Christ's birth, but weeks later. Nothing profound or insightful here, just curiosity. Furthermore, if it was weeks later the magi may have deliberately led Herod's spies on a merry wild goose chase to give the family time to disappear unto Egypt.

Vakeros
Nov 23rd 2013, 12:18 PM
He
died five days after the execution of Antipater, in
the sixty-ninth year of his life and the thirty-seventh
of his reign, in the spring of the year 4 b. c.
Josephus didn't write that date - that has been added by whoever abridged it. Josephus' information points to a 1 BC death.

SirToady
Nov 24th 2013, 12:32 AM
Josephus didn't write that date - that has been added by whoever abridged it. Josephus' information points to a 1 BC death.

This is the source I referenced. Granted, just because somebody posts something that don't mean its true or accurate.
http://archive.org/stream/historyofjew02grae/historyofjew02grae_djvu.txt

Vakeros
Nov 25th 2013, 05:45 PM
This is the source I referenced. Granted, just because somebody posts something that don't mean its true or accurate.
http://archive.org/stream/historyofjew02grae/historyofjew02grae_djvu.txt
I saw that. The person who abridged it (edited it) added the dates. This is where cross-referencing information that Josephus gives us, with details known from elsewhere helps to confirm what the date was.