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Bro Berryl
Nov 22nd 2013, 12:51 PM
What is actually meant by the phrase "fullness of the Gentiles" as found in Romans 11:25 and what impact does it have on our salvation today is what this thread is about.

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.

We have seen the word mystery thrown around in this forum and have had it applied to various things found in scripture but what actually does Paul mean by the word "mystery" in this context?

He's been discussing how the unbelieving Jews were cut off making it possible for believing Gentiles to partake of the grace of God ever since chapter 9 of Romans. He is near to his conclusion when he makes this statement;

Romans 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

This way of defining the "mystery" is further supported by Paul's words in Ephesians 3;

Ephesians 3:4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
Ephesians 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
Ephesians 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Now that we know what the mystery is why does Paul say "until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in"?

We must consider verse 26 of Romans 11 to properly determine this question;

Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

The question to be asked is saved from what? Judgement of course. The unbelieving Jews made it possible for Gentiles to be grafted in. Because Gentiles were being added to the church it provoked them to jealousy and some turned to Jesus. All Israel refers to true Israel which was made up of the faithful remnant of Jews, believing Gentiles, and believing Jews who turned to Christ because of seeing Gentiles coming into the church.

Blindness in part happened to Israel until the Gentiles were able to hear the truth and enter the grace of God, the "until" does not relate to some future time when Jews will be reunited in some Millennial kingdom but rather relates to judgement.

We see the hardening of Pharaoh's heart ended when the last plague was given to Egypt, when judgment was executed, so it will be for Israel. The hardening of their hearts partially ended for them as a nation in 70 AD, we still have Jews with hard hearts today who refuse to come to Jesus, they will individually be judged as well as we Gentiles.

Sorry for making this so long, hope it helps a little.

episkopos
Nov 22nd 2013, 01:27 PM
What is actually meant by the phrase "fullness of the Gentiles" as found in Romans 11:25 and what impact does it have on our salvation today is what this thread is about.

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.

We have seen the word mystery thrown around in this forum and have had it applied to various things found in scripture but what actually does Paul mean by the word "mystery" in this context?

He's been discussing how the unbelieving Jews were cut off making it possible for believing Gentiles to partake of the grace of God ever since chapter 9 of Romans. He is near to his conclusion when he makes this statement;

Romans 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

This way of defining the "mystery" is further supported by Paul's words in Ephesians 3;

Ephesians 3:4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
Ephesians 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
Ephesians 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Now that we know what the mystery is why does Paul say "until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in"?

We must consider verse 26 of Romans 11 to properly determine this question;

Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

The question to be asked is saved from what? Judgement of course. The unbelieving Jews made it possible for Gentiles to be grafted in. Because Gentiles were being added to the church it provoked them to jealousy and some turned to Jesus. All Israel refers to true Israel which was made up of the faithful remnant of Jews, believing Gentiles, and believing Jews who turned to Christ because of seeing Gentiles coming into the church.

Blindness in part happened to Israel until the Gentiles were able to hear the truth and enter the grace of God, the "until" does not relate to some future time when Jews will be reunited in some Millennial kingdom but rather relates to judgement.

We see the hardening of Pharaoh's heart ended when the last plague was given to Egypt, when judgment was executed, so it will be for Israel. The hardening of their hearts partially ended for them as a nation in 70 AD, we still have Jews with hard hearts today who refuse to come to Jesus, they will individually be judged as well as we Gentiles.

Sorry for making this so long, hope it helps a little.

Paul was making reference to the prophecy of Israel (Jacob) over Ephraim.

Gen 48:17 And when Joseph saw that his father laid his right hand upon the head of Ephraim, it displeased him: and he held up his father's hand, to remove it from Ephraim's head unto Manasseh's head.
Gen 48:18 And Joseph said unto his father, Not so, my father: for this is the firstborn; put thy right hand upon his head.
Gen 48:19 And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations.


In Hebrew "melo haGoyim" means a fulness of Gentiles (nations).


God is looking to gather people from every tribe and tongue....and when that number is filled then Israel will be complete and the end will come.

LandShark
Nov 22nd 2013, 01:39 PM
Epi is correct, it is prophetically the time Israel is in the nations. A time I believe, is very near an end. There are other signs that go with it and in my view a far better indicator of where we are prophetically then trying to count days in Daniel. :) Blessings.

Bro Berryl
Nov 22nd 2013, 02:05 PM
I am aware of how many people interpret the fullness of Gentiles, my question to them is how does Israel being restored to their homeland fit in with the context of what Paul is writing about. Explain it to me using scripture.

episkopos
Nov 22nd 2013, 02:29 PM
I am aware of how many people interpret the fullness of Gentiles, my question to them is how does Israel being restored to their homeland fit in with the context of what Paul is writing about. Explain it to me using scripture.

It doesn't. Paul is not talking about a geo-political entity....but a spiritual reality. Scripture is to be spiritually discerned. The homeland of Israel is Jesus Christ.

Bro Berryl
Nov 22nd 2013, 02:34 PM
It doesn't. Paul is not talking about a geo-political entity....but a spiritual reality. Scripture is to be spiritually discerned. The homeland of Israel is Jesus Christ.


If you believe the scripture to be spiritually discerned then please share with us the scriptures that explain your view as I did mine

episkopos
Nov 22nd 2013, 02:58 PM
If you believe the scripture to be spiritually discerned then please share with us the scriptures that explain your view as I did mine

I did that. Where does it say that the land called Judea would be become a people from every tribe and tongue? Israel is a people not a place...the same way a church is a people not a building.

LandShark
Nov 22nd 2013, 03:53 PM
I am aware of how many people interpret the fullness of Gentiles, my question to them is how does Israel being restored to their homeland fit in with the context of what Paul is writing about. Explain it to me using scripture.

It isn't just to a homeland, it is "as a people." God said He would drive them into the nations but would one day call them back (Deut. 30:1-6). He said in Hosea, "You are not my people and I will not be your God." But then He said, "In the place where it was said, you are not my people, there it shall be said to you, You are sons of the Living God." So when you factor in Jesus' words like, "I have not been sent but to the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel," we are talking about being called back "as a people" first, the land return which I do think factors in, is really a Millennial Kingdom or just prior to it event. Jesus come to rule over a united people, which we see prophesied here:

Hosea 1:11 Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel.

He is that head that is appointed over them, an event which is yet to occur. Blessings.

Bro Berryl
Nov 22nd 2013, 04:13 PM
Paul was making reference to the prophecy of Israel (Jacob) over Ephraim.

Gen 48:17 And when Joseph saw that his father laid his right hand upon the head of Ephraim, it displeased him: and he held up his father's hand, to remove it from Ephraim's head unto Manasseh's head.
Gen 48:18 And Joseph said unto his father, Not so, my father: for this is the firstborn; put thy right hand upon his head.
Gen 48:19 And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations.


In Hebrew "melo haGoyim" means a fulness of Gentiles (nations).


God is looking to gather people from every tribe and tongue....and when that number is filled then Israel will be complete and the end will come.

My apology, I didn't realize this passage was what you meant when I asked how does Israel's future glorification in the Millennial kingdom relate to what Paul was talking about in Romans 11. I just don't see the connection if Paul is talking about Israel's hardheartedness and grafting in of the Gentiles how that ties in with the Millennium. Could you be a little clearer?

episkopos
Nov 22nd 2013, 04:31 PM
My apology, I didn't realize this passage was what you meant when I asked how does Israel's future glorification in the Millennial kingdom relate to what Paul was talking about in Romans 11. I just don't see the connection if Paul is talking about Israel's hardheartedness and grafting in of the Gentiles how that ties in with the Millennium. Could you be a little clearer?


God is looking for a specific kind of person. These are found in every tribe and tongue since no race produces exclusively the right kind of person. Every race and tribe has it's humble people and it's proud. So God doesn't look at one tribe over the other. It is by heart attitude.

Israel (Jacob) was a man who was innocent of evil (tamim) AND was a seeker of God (shalem). Israel combines both holiness AND righteousness. So it takes God equipping the right kind of person....and making these Israel.....the Israel of God.

keck553
Nov 22nd 2013, 04:45 PM
I'm a gentile and I ate too much meat loaf last night.

Bro Berryl
Nov 22nd 2013, 04:58 PM
I did that. Where does it say that the land called Judea would be become a people from every tribe and tongue? Israel is a people not a place...the same way a church is a people not a building.

I believe we disagree on if the land refers to the literal land in the Middle East or if the land is a spiritual country whose builder and maker is God. Many people equate what the prophets said concerning the land and people from every nation inhabiting it to mean the literal land in the Middle East, I for one believe it to be spiritually discerned.

episkopos
Nov 22nd 2013, 05:01 PM
I believe we disagree on if the land refers to the literal land in the Middle East or if the land is a spiritual country whose builder and maker is God. Many people equate what the prophets said concerning the land and people from every nation inhabiting it to mean the literal land in the Middle East, I for one believe it to be spiritually discerned.

Agreed! God is looking into eternal matters....and what He establishes is for all time.

percho
Nov 22nd 2013, 05:54 PM
I am aware of how many people interpret the fullness of Gentiles, my question to them is how does Israel being restored to their homeland fit in with the context of what Paul is writing about. Explain it to me using scripture.

I believe Ephraim representative of the ten tribes scattered become the fullness of the Gentiles. I believe we are presently in a time of God taking from among the Gentiles a people for his name, a time called the time of the firstfruits of the Spirit, the feast of firstfruits. These are the people as seen in Jer. 3:14 that God is taking from among the Gentiles of the house of Israel of whom he had given a bill of divorce V8. "and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:" Zion being the church. God began this in choosing some from Judah. The Jews and the Gentiles Acts 15:14. All others of Israel both the house of Judah and the house of Israel have been blinded until the taking of the firstfruits. After the taking of the first fruits God will return and set up the tabernacle of David which is fallen down Acts 15:16. This is the restoring of all Israel the house of Judah and the house of Israel see Ez 37 and all Israel shall be saved of Romans 11 and also the first seven days of the feast of tabernacles.

Then Acts 15:17 The residue of men. John 7:37 that last day the great of the feast Jesus said, "If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink." The whosoever will, may come, time of Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

You only have I known of all the families of the earth: therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities.

I believe all this can be seen here.

According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

percho
Nov 22nd 2013, 05:59 PM
It isn't just to a homeland, it is "as a people." God said He would drive them into the nations but would one day call them back (Deut. 30:1-6). He said in Hosea, "You are not my people and I will not be your God." But then He said, "In the place where it was said, you are not my people, there it shall be said to you, You are sons of the Living God." So when you factor in Jesus' words like, "I have not been sent but to the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel," we are talking about being called back "as a people" first, the land return which I do think factors in, is really a Millennial Kingdom or just prior to it event. Jesus come to rule over a united people, which we see prophesied here:

Hosea 1:11 Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel.

He is that head that is appointed over them, an event which is yet to occur. Blessings.


I agree with you. Compare with my other post and let me know what you think.

BTW I do not have all my thoughts concerning this chiseled in stone.

SirToady
Nov 23rd 2013, 02:14 AM
This is the best explanation I have found:

• Luke 21:24 - The times of the Gentiles fulfilled.

• Romans 11:25 - The fullness of the Gentiles.

Both of these statements are referring to the time of the end. As God told Abraham in Genesis 15:16, Israel could not take the Promised Land until the iniquity of the Amorites was full. In other words, God gave the Canaanite nations 400 years to turn from iniquity, but instead they went deeper and deeper into immorality in all its forms -- Leviticus 18. Now, God could, in all fairness, bring judgment upon the Canaanites in the form of giving their land to the Children of Israel. So also today, the Gentile world is filling the cup of iniquity with the same immoral acts, leading them to the final seven years of God's Wrath and Judgment.

Running concurrently is the Body of Christ, which also is being brought to the full. When it is, God takes it out and brings in the Wrath of God, culminating with Christ’s return and the opening of Israel's spiritual eyes. Everything in the world today is telling us that both are nearing the full mark. Western Europe, every day, is doing things that remind us of the Ancient Roman Empire. The Middle East is a disaster waiting to happen.

Into that scenario will step the Anti-Christ bringing a seemingly permanent peace. Even allowing Israel to rebuild a temple of sorts and restore the ancient temple worship. At the same time, God is calling out people and placing them in the Body of Christ. Even our small outreach is bringing in so many. One day soon, sooner than most realize, the Body will be complete and we will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air - I Thess. 4:13-18.

ross3421
Nov 23rd 2013, 08:07 AM
Paul was making reference to the prophecy of Israel (Jacob) over Ephraim.

Gen 48:17 And when Joseph saw that his father laid his right hand upon the head of Ephraim, it displeased him: and he held up his father's hand, to remove it from Ephraim's head unto Manasseh's head.
Gen 48:18 And Joseph said unto his father, Not so, my father: for this is the firstborn; put thy right hand upon his head.
Gen 48:19 And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations.


In Hebrew "melo haGoyim" means a fulness of Gentiles (nations).


God is looking to gather people from every tribe and tongue....and when that number is filled then Israel will be complete and the end will come.

I think it was a reference to this.......


Luke 21:24
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Here we see when this is completed. During a future 1260 day period.

2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

episkopos
Nov 23rd 2013, 03:23 PM
I think it was a reference to this.......


Luke 21:24
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Here we see when this is completed. During a future 1260 day period.

2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

Are you interpreting this spiritually?

ChangedByHim
Nov 23rd 2013, 03:31 PM
I'm a gentile and I ate too much meat loaf last night.

I'm the church and I wish I had some meatloaf.

Bro Berryl
Nov 23rd 2013, 03:57 PM
I think it was a reference to this.......


Luke 21:24
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Here we see when this is completed. During a future 1260 day period.

2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

I have a different view of the passage in Luke 21 and how it relates to the Gentiles in Revelation 11 that I would like to share. As you probably already know I feel the fullness of the Gentiles has to do with the time given by God that allows unbelieving Israel (whose jealousy over the fact that Gentiles were offered the grace of God) to turn from hardening their hearts and accept the grace of God. This was done that all Israel might be saved.

The time given for the fullness of the Gentiles would extend until judgement would come on that nation first and subsequently to individual Jews at the final judgement.

When I read Luke's passage I understand that to be God's judgement toward the nation of Israel in 70 AD. Why would Jesus say "until the the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled? Because judgment is what ended the hardness of Israel's heart just as judgement ended the hardness of Pharaoh's heart in Exodus.

I'll have to get to Revelation another time, gotta go

ross3421
Nov 23rd 2013, 10:37 PM
Are you interpreting this spiritually?

Nope...............Just aligning scriptures

episkopos
Nov 23rd 2013, 10:58 PM
Nope...............Just aligning scriptures

But one must not just look for words to lump together. The time of the Gentiles and the fulness of the Gentiles are two completely different ideas. The time of the Gentiles is about a temporal ravishing of Jerusalem by the heathen...which is a bad thing. The fulness of the Gentiles is about the gathering together of the people of God from the entire world....and that is a good thing.

ross3421
Nov 24th 2013, 06:18 AM
But one must not just look for words to lump together. The time of the Gentiles and the fulness of the Gentiles are two completely different ideas. The time of the Gentiles is about a temporal ravishing of Jerusalem by the heathen...which is a bad thing. The fulness of the Gentiles is about the gathering together of the people of God from the entire world....and that is a good thing.

The fullness can not happen until the times are complete.....during these 1260 days many gentiles will be part of the fulness and the fulness is completed after the time of the gentiles.

Bro Berryl
Nov 24th 2013, 01:28 PM
The fullness can not happen until the times are complete.....during these 1260 days many gentiles will be part of the fulness and the fulness is completed after the time of the gentiles.

Rev 11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
Rev 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

I can see the reasoning that most of you have regarding the temple, correct me if I am wrong but I believe most of you have the temple as a physical structure in the physical city of Jerusalem.

I understand it to be a spiritual temple ans here is why;

Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
Eph 2:21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
Eph 2:22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Christians make up the temple of God, well if Christians are the temple then what does John mean by the holy city and what represents the court that the Gentiles are in?

I believe the holy city is physical Jerusalem representing the nation of Israel, I believe the court represents those that are in denominations. They are called Christians but they never actually obeyed the truth hence they are close but not truly saved.

According to Hebrews 12 there were things to be shaken and removed that things that were made without hands may remain. The ending of the nation, the covenant, and Mt Sinai were things to be shaken and removed while new Jerusalem, the new covenant and Mt Zion would remain.

The trampling of the physical city is the Lord shaking and removing these things that the spiritual things may remain.

keck553
Nov 24th 2013, 04:53 PM
I'm the church and I wish I had some meatloaf.

Well I am NOT of the "lost" ten tribes of Israel, so according to some, only meatloaf can fulfill me.