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itsafreegift
Nov 25th 2004, 05:29 PM
Saturday??? Sunday??? What???

Watchman
Nov 25th 2004, 05:43 PM
For Christians, it truly must be every day.

There are many 'religions' made from traditions. Very few use any common sense at all. The key is to know that Jesus is our Sabbath. That is, the word 'sabbath' means "rest". Can you see that if one is not 'resting' in Yashua always, using Him to giude each hour, we are heading to trouble. We as Christians are not supposed to just 'rest' in Him a few hours a week.

As far as setting aside a particular day of the week to 'follow' what we believe as religions do, there is much to consider. We may feel smug because we take time out of our precious week to 'go to church'. Some religions 'worship' on fridays, some saturdays and some sundays.

It has been said that nowadays, what we know as Saturday is the 7th day. Churches have built complete denominations on that belief.

Follow the link below which will demonstrate that any particular day of the week cannot be determined using any know methods. Here is an Excerpt from that link

>>>The reform was first adopted by Pope Gregory XIII, who decreed that the day after October 4, 1582 would be October 15, 1582. This decree was followed by the Catholic countries of France, Spain, Portugal, and Italy. Various Catholic German countries (Germany was not yet unified), Belgium, the Netherlands, and Switzerland followed suit within a year or two, and Hungary followed in 1587. Because of the Pope's decree, the reform of the Julian calendar came to be known as the Gregorian calendar. The rest of Europe did not follow suit for more than a century. The Protestant German countries adopted the Gregorian reform in 1700. By this time, the calendar trailed the seasons by twelve days. England finally followed suit in 1752, declaring that Wednesday, September 2, 1752 was immediately followed by Thursday, September 14, 1752 as shown in the below calendar. The English calendar was also used in America. >>>
Calendars (http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/astronomy/Calendar.html)

So you can see that Father has 'confused' the days, probably so some would realize what He meant in :
Isa 1:10-16
10 Hear the word of the LORD, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah.
11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.
12 When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?
13 Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.
14 Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.
15 And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.
16 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil; (KJV)

Here it plainly says, God was weary of the feast days, appointed feasts, and all 'daily traditions', as well as "men's sabbaths'. We are washed clean in Father's eyes by our acceptance of His Son, the only way to please the Father.

When Christ was on this earth, He said:

Matt 5:17-18
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. (KJV)

Thus, for me, our Sabbath, or rest, is in the Savior, continually. Dont let some man or religious "tradition" rob you of your rest.

In summary, we are to gather together, for sure. However, not where there is contention. If you don't see eye to eye with others, thats just fine. Just be certain in your heart where your "rest" is. If you cannot find Father's rest at a particular, or any, "church", that is OK too. Keep looking. You are the one responsible for your own rest. Don't judge, nor let some man or 'religion' judge you. All have the same fate, be judged by the just Judge.

qbee
Nov 26th 2004, 12:17 AM
I never thought of it that way but it makes sense
also we are now the temple and christ is in us
so every day is Sabbath...:)

Colossians 2

13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh,
hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which
was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in
respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Joe D
Nov 26th 2004, 12:29 AM
The Sabbath day is Saturday.

It's a day the Jews celebrate being set free from bondage in Egypt.

I don't know why that everytime someone asks when is the Sabbath someone always has to get defensive and tell why Christians don't keep the Sabbath.

It actually sounds like excuses for something where there's no explanation needed.

The question wasn't what day we celebrate and why. All that was asked is what day is the Sabbath

qbee
Nov 26th 2004, 12:51 AM
OH OK _ Well Im not Jewish _I'm a gentile_The Sabbath day is Sunday..:)

itsafreegift
Nov 26th 2004, 01:13 AM
If the Sabbath day is Saturday, can someone tell me why so many people recognize it as Sunday? How did this concept come about?

Kahtar
Nov 26th 2004, 01:18 AM
I don't know why that everytime someone asks when is the Sabbath someone always has to get defensive and tell why Christians don't keep the Sabbath.
It actually sounds like excuses for something where there's no explanation needed.
The question wasn't what day we celebrate and why. All that was asked is what day is the SabbathI did not notice anyone being defensive, or making excuses. Just several people explaining their views, as you have done, to which I am sure most agree. Nevertheless, the TRUE Sabboth is Christ, in Whom we find our rest. Do you disagree with this?

BHS
Nov 26th 2004, 01:23 AM
Watchman, I am surprised by your use of Isaiah 1:10-16 in the context of the Sabbath. Isn’t the context of this passage really found in verse 13 “... I cannot endure iniquity AND the solemn assembly.”??

Was their evil following what God Himself had subscribed, or was it that doing the things God subscribed became a stench because it was done by those who had really turned away from God as verse 4 says, “Alas, sinful nation, people weighed down with iniquity, offspring of evildoers, sons who act corruptly! They have abandoned the Lord, They have despised the Holy One of Israel, They have turned away from Him.”??

Isaiah Chapter 1:10-16 is followed by Chapter 58:13-14:

NAU Isaiah 58:13-14 “If because of the sabbath, you turn your foot from doing your own pleasure on My holy day, and call the sabbath a delight, the holy day of the Lord honorable, And honor it, desisting from your own ways, From seeking your own pleasure And speaking your own word, Then you will take delight in the Lord, And I will make you ride on the heights of the earth; And I will feed you with the heritage of Jacob your father, For the mouth of the Lord has spoken.”

Quite a contrast!

The Sabbath is the "seventh day" according to the scriptures. I am not familiar with calendar changes, but what I do believe is that God honors our desire to worship and serve Him in the best way we know how -- with a pure heart.

The change of assembling on Sunday vs. Saturday is best explained in Dr. Samuele Bacchiochi's book "From Sabbath to Sunday".

Blessings,

BHS

Joe D
Nov 26th 2004, 02:07 AM
If the Sabbath day is Saturday, can someone tell me why so many people recognize it as Sunday? How did this concept come about?
I don't reconize Sunday as the Sabbath day.

As the Jews celebrate their freedom from the bondage in Egypt on the Sabbath (Saturday) I celebrate my freedom from the bondage of sin through Jesus Christ on Sunday

That doesn't make my Sunday the Sabbath, I can't change the bible.

qbee
Nov 26th 2004, 03:32 AM
I don't reconize Sunday as the Sabbath day.

As the Jews celebrate their freedom from the bondage in Egypt on the Sabbath (Saturday) I celebrate my freedom from the bondage of sin through Jesus Christ on Sunday

That doesn't make my Sunday the Sabbath, I can't change the bible.
I see what your saying now_ does this mean christians dont have sabbath
only the Jewish..

The Way
Nov 26th 2004, 03:49 AM
The seventh day was instituted by God at creation as the sabbath:

Genesis 2
1***Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
2***And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
3***And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

qbee
Nov 26th 2004, 03:53 AM
If the Sabbath day is Saturday, can someone tell me why so many people recognize it as Sunday? How did this concept come about?
Yes when did everyone stop celebrating sabbath on saturday..
and WHY??

The Way
Nov 26th 2004, 04:10 AM
qbee,
thats the million dollar question now isn't it......some say the apostles, some their disciples, and others the Roman Catholic Church.

Watchman
Nov 26th 2004, 04:53 AM
The seventh day was instituted by God at creation as the sabbath:

Genesis 2
1***Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
2***And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
3***And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

You are correct, the Way.

However, if you and others will look at the first question in this thread, the question asked is:

"what day is Sabbath? Saturday??? Sunday??? What???"

My answer, the second post in this thread, was to show by calendar history that we have absolutely no way of knowing which particular day is indeed the seventh day of the week.

The calendars are a product of man, not God. For those who think a bit, it is easy to determine that a period of time we call a "week". ie 7 days, is not evenly divisible into any other unit of time we have. month, year or otherwise. It is not measurable by any astronomical signal God has given for signs, such as the sun, moon or stars.

It is lost in history.

Joe D
Nov 26th 2004, 10:56 AM
I see what your saying now_ does this mean christians dont have sabbath
only the Jewish
It was said in somewhere in this thread already, Christ is a Christians sabbath.

Some Christians put aside a certain day, some use every day, It's not my place to say if either is right or wrong, Let each be convinced they are right, it's between them and God how they worship.

All this doesn't change what day God told the Jews to use as the Sabbath, it was clearly the 7th day for them. (Saturday)

I hope we realize that the Jews were meticulous in their record keeping, I'm sure God let them know for certian what day was the 7th day and they kept excellent records throughout their generations.

Qara
Nov 26th 2004, 12:30 PM
Sabbath is the seventh day, the only day our G-d set aside and blessed as a rest day. He never changed His mind, He never decided upon a different day.
The original calendar, created by Him, has seven days in the week, and all had merely numbers for names, except the Sabbath, which was named. This should help us to see its importance.

Our L-rd observed Sabbath, faithfully keeping it according to Torah which taught its observance. His disciples also kept Sabbath, just as He did, because He told all His followers to do as He did.

Even Paul, who some say did away with Sabbath, also kept Sabbath. He was a careful follower of Torah, with the blessings of the elders of the first century congregation, who were concerned that some of that time also thought that Paul was teaching Gentiles not to follow Torah. Not so, and they decided upon a way for him to prove it publicly, so that all such accusations would be squelched. Paul publicly attended both the Temple and the synagogues, using his Sabbaths teaching both Jews and Gentiles.

qbee
Nov 26th 2004, 12:58 PM
Well I can see there is much confusion and calendars
have been changed over the centuries _ Knowing Jesus,
I think he will be pleased that we still worship and honor
the Father everday_ and whatever day we chose to gather
together in his presence will be blessed by the Lord...

To me it would seem...
The fact that the Jews honor saturday as sabbath brings
no joy to the Lord as they have rejected his son and are
not truly honoring him on this day....

The Lord will ALWAYS look at our hearts ...
He no longer condenms us under the law..



Can you hear the conversation between the saducis and Jesus

But we honor the true Sabbath from the father on saturday and
these gentiles who follow you honor sunday as the sabbath...

What would Jesus say ......:)

something very profound I think...

.
.
.

The Way
Nov 26th 2004, 01:18 PM
You are correct, the Way.

However, if you and others will look at the first question in this thread, the question asked is:

"what day is Sabbath? Saturday??? Sunday??? What???"

My answer, the second post in this thread, was to show by calendar history that we have absolutely no way of knowing which particular day is indeed the seventh day of the week.

The calendars are a product of man, not God. For those who think a bit, it is easy to determine that a period of time we call a "week". ie 7 days, is not evenly divisible into any other unit of time we have. month, year or otherwise. It is not measurable by any astronomical signal God has given for signs, such as the sun, moon or stars.

It is lost in history.

Hey Watchman,
I have heard that theory before, I don't buy it for a second. I doubt that man ever forgot what day it was to the point that the whole human race lost track. Funny, I have never heard this arguement in favor of abolishing Sunday worship.

The Way
Nov 26th 2004, 01:28 PM
Daniel 7:25
And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Kahtar
Nov 26th 2004, 02:25 PM
Rom 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day [alike]. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

Debra R
Nov 26th 2004, 02:26 PM
I refer you all back to Romans 14. :)

If in our heart we are observing a day, any day, to our Lord it is accepted by Him. Which, every day already belongs to our Lord. For the Lord Jesus is Lord of all!



God bless.



(NASB) Romans 14:
5) One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind.

6) He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God.

7) For not one of us lives for himself, and not one dies for himself;

8) for if we live, we live for the Lord, or if we die, we die for the Lord; therefore whether we live or die, we are the Lord's.

9) For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.

Watchman
Nov 26th 2004, 04:10 PM
Hey Watchman,
I have heard that theory before, I don't buy it for a second. I doubt that man ever forgot what day it was to the point that the whole human race lost track. Funny, I have never heard this arguement in favor of abolishing Sunday worship.

There is no argument, The Way. At least on my part. I certainly have no reason to abolish any thing, merely to state the answer to the original question.

The days of the week did not have "names" until Roman times.
"Sunday" is the day devoted to the ancient sun-god. "Saturday" is Satyr's day. Do a little bit of search and you will see.

Matter of fact, it was the RCC which legislated Sunday worship for Christians.

Here is a bit of history, in case you are interested.

.....Sunday Legislation..... from Here (http://www.roboam.com/predici/firstdayoftheweek.htm)

In the course of Constantine's wars with his rivals to establish himself on the throne, on October 27, 312 A.D., on the eve of the battle of Milvain Bridge just outside of Rome, he is reported to have seen in the sky a vision of the cross with the words: "In this Sign Conquer."

He had painted on his men's shields a figure that was, perhaps, intended to be Christ's monogram (although he may have had Christ confused with the Sun in his manifestation as Summa Divinitas ["the highest divinity"]. He won the battle and declared himself a Christian, establishing a turning point in the history of Christianity.14

Whether this was a true conversion or a politically advantageous rationalization is a matter of scholastic dispute. 15 Like his father, he had originally been a votary of the Sun and had gone to worship at the Grand Temple of the Sun in the Vosges Mountains in Gaul, where he had his first vision - a pagan one.

This may well have been simply a pragmatic attempt to unify the empire. He was faced with a diverse population following numerous forms of pagan sun worship. The Syrian solar cults of Sol Invictus (the unconquerable sun) and Jupiter Dolichenus had played an important role under previous rulers. The Persian cult of the ancient Iranian god of light, Mithra, had also spread throughout the empire. There developed a syncretism that tended toward a "solar monotheism" to fuse into a single supreme god all of the pagan divinities, especially the solar gods Sol, Helios, Sarapis, and Mithra .

[This was the same type of pagan pragmatism that Mohammed later exploited in syncretizing the 360 idols of Ka'aba into the worship of Al-Ilah in Islam.]

And another key demographic factor was emerging: by the end of the Imperial Persecutions (313 A.D.), Christians, then an illegal sect, numbered about half of the population of the Roman Empire. The embracing of this growing underground movement could simply have been an extremely clever stratagem for consolidating power.16

Emperor Constantine served from 306 - 337 A.D. He ultimately abolished slavery, gladiatorial fights, the killing of unwelcome children, and crucifixion as a form of execution. Frustrated with the paganism clung to by the aristocracy in Rome, he relocated the capital of the world to Byzantium, renaming it the "New Rome," Constantinople (now Istanbul).

This, too, may have been motivated by its strategic and economic importance, with its proximity to the Danube and Euphrates frontiers and the straits of Bosphorus and the eastern commercial routes.

The Edict of Toleration, 313 A.D : By this edict, Constantine granted to "Christians and to all others full liberty of following that religion which each may choose." This was the first edict of its kind in history. (This has been superseded in America by Darwinism and the God of Chance, a paganism which is now enforced in schools and public places.)

On March 7, 321, Constantine introduced the first civil legislation concerning Sunday: "Let all the judges and town people, and the occupation of all trades rest on the venerable day of the sun."17 In 325 A.D., Constantine issued a general exhortation to all his subjects to embrace Christianity. He ordered 50 Bibles to be prepared under the direction of Eusebius, on the finest vellum and by skillful artists. 18

In his zeal to institute a universal creed, he presided over the Council of Nicaea in 325. He personally was not actually baptized until his deathbed in 337.

It was a later successor, Emperor Theodosius (347-395 A.D.), who made Christianity the state religion of the Roman Empire. His legislation in 380 affirmed the dogmas of the Council of Nicaea and made church membership compulsory (the worst calamity that has ever befallen the church).

Theodosius undertook the forcible suppression of all other religions, and in 392 he prohibited paganism.19 Thus began the great apostasy as the church began its pursuit of temporal power. 20 (It was through this fusing of extant paganism with the new Christianity that the December 25 of Sol Invictus became the Christmas of the Christians, etc.)

If our perceptions of Revelation 13, 17, and 18 are correct, the current "Ecumenical Movement" will ultimately lead to a reprise of global ecclesiastical tyranny and the Darkest Ages of all...and another "Holocaust" to come. 21 Hegel was right: "History teaches that man learns nothing from history."

There remain a number of views regarding the replacement of the Seventh Day with the first day of the week:.... "

Watchman
Nov 26th 2004, 04:16 PM
Hey Watchman,
I have heard that theory before, I don't buy it for a second. I doubt that man ever forgot what day it was to the point that the whole human race lost track. Funny, I have never heard this arguement in favor of abolishing Sunday worship.

There is no argument, The Way. At least on my part. I certainly have no reason to abolish any thing, merely to state the answer to the original question.

The days of the week did not have "names" until Roman times.
"Sunday" is the day devoted to the ancient sun-god. "Saturday" is Satyr's day. Do a little bit of search and you will see.

As a matter of fact, it was the RCC which legislated Sunday worship for Christians. So, as you can see, it was not that people forgot what day it was, it was legislation from their king and 'pope' that gave it sanction.



Here is a bit of history, in case you are interested.

.....Sunday Legislation..... from Here (http://www.roboam.com/predici/firstdayoftheweek.htm)

In the course of Constantine's wars with his rivals to establish himself on the throne, on October 27, 312 A.D., on the eve of the battle of Milvain Bridge just outside of Rome, he is reported to have seen in the sky a vision of the cross with the words: "In this Sign Conquer."

He had painted on his men's shields a figure that was, perhaps, intended to be Christ's monogram (although he may have had Christ confused with the Sun in his manifestation as Summa Divinitas ["the highest divinity"]. He won the battle and declared himself a Christian, establishing a turning point in the history of Christianity.14

Whether this was a true conversion or a politically advantageous rationalization is a matter of scholastic dispute. 15 Like his father, he had originally been a votary of the Sun and had gone to worship at the Grand Temple of the Sun in the Vosges Mountains in Gaul, where he had his first vision - a pagan one.

This may well have been simply a pragmatic attempt to unify the empire. He was faced with a diverse population following numerous forms of pagan sun worship. The Syrian solar cults of Sol Invictus (the unconquerable sun) and Jupiter Dolichenus had played an important role under previous rulers. The Persian cult of the ancient Iranian god of light, Mithra, had also spread throughout the empire. There developed a syncretism that tended toward a "solar monotheism" to fuse into a single supreme god all of the pagan divinities, especially the solar gods Sol, Helios, Sarapis, and Mithra .

[This was the same type of pagan pragmatism that Mohammed later exploited in syncretizing the 360 idols of Ka'aba into the worship of Al-Ilah in Islam.]

And another key demographic factor was emerging: by the end of the Imperial Persecutions (313 A.D.), Christians, then an illegal sect, numbered about half of the population of the Roman Empire. The embracing of this growing underground movement could simply have been an extremely clever stratagem for consolidating power.16

Emperor Constantine served from 306 - 337 A.D. He ultimately abolished slavery, gladiatorial fights, the killing of unwelcome children, and crucifixion as a form of execution. Frustrated with the paganism clung to by the aristocracy in Rome, he relocated the capital of the world to Byzantium, renaming it the "New Rome," Constantinople (now Istanbul).

This, too, may have been motivated by its strategic and economic importance, with its proximity to the Danube and Euphrates frontiers and the straits of Bosphorus and the eastern commercial routes.

The Edict of Toleration, 313 A.D : By this edict, Constantine granted to "Christians and to all others full liberty of following that religion which each may choose." This was the first edict of its kind in history. (This has been superseded in America by Darwinism and the God of Chance, a paganism which is now enforced in schools and public places.)

On March 7, 321, Constantine introduced the first civil legislation concerning Sunday: "Let all the judges and town people, and the occupation of all trades rest on the venerable day of the sun."17 In 325 A.D., Constantine issued a general exhortation to all his subjects to embrace Christianity. He ordered 50 Bibles to be prepared under the direction of Eusebius, on the finest vellum and by skillful artists. 18

In his zeal to institute a universal creed, he presided over the Council of Nicaea in 325. He personally was not actually baptized until his deathbed in 337.

It was a later successor, Emperor Theodosius (347-395 A.D.), who made Christianity the state religion of the Roman Empire. His legislation in 380 affirmed the dogmas of the Council of Nicaea and made church membership compulsory (the worst calamity that has ever befallen the church).

Theodosius undertook the forcible suppression of all other religions, and in 392 he prohibited paganism.19 Thus began the great apostasy as the church began its pursuit of temporal power. 20 (It was through this fusing of extant paganism with the new Christianity that the December 25 of Sol Invictus became the Christmas of the Christians, etc.)

If our perceptions of Revelation 13, 17, and 18 are correct, the current "Ecumenical Movement" will ultimately lead to a reprise of global ecclesiastical tyranny and the Darkest Ages of all...and another "Holocaust" to come. 21 Hegel was right: "History teaches that man learns nothing from history."

There remain a number of views regarding the replacement of the Seventh Day with the first day of the week:.... "

Teke
Nov 26th 2004, 10:56 PM
There is a study in Shorashim on sabbath, as well as new moon.

The conclusion was no one really knows for sure. We just say this is that and accept it.

Times been changed so much, no one knows for sure anymore. That is the facts.

Phish
Nov 26th 2004, 11:13 PM
I think I would have to agree with The Way. I do believe the lord is our rest and any debate doesn't really matter, However, In the interest of a friendly debate I would say the Jews never lost sight of the true or original day of rest. Since the Law was given Jews have held tight to it and part of the law is the Sabbath. Before our calender came about they still observed the sabbath until this day. It just happens to be on Saturday. I know this is no real proof but do you really think they would have forgotten what actual day they were observing. Just my thoughts.

Teke
Nov 27th 2004, 12:07 AM
I think I would have to agree with The Way. I do believe the lord is our rest and any debate doesn't really matter, However, In the interest of a friendly debate I would say the Jews never lost sight of the true or original day of rest. Since the Law was given Jews have held tight to it and part of the law is the Sabbath. Before our calender came about they still observed the sabbath until this day. It just happens to be on Saturday. I know this is no real proof but do you really think they would have forgotten what actual day they were observing. Just my thoughts.


I agree the Lord is our rest.

As to them forgetting or messing up, here is what the Master says.

Mat 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.


Mat 23:16 Woe unto you, [ye] blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!

He calls them blind two more times in this chapter. Can the blind lead us?

Phish
Nov 27th 2004, 12:26 AM
I agree the Lord is our rest.

As to them forgetting or messing up, here is what the Master says.

Mat 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.


Mat 23:16 Woe unto you, [ye] blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!

He calls them blind two more times in this chapter. Can the blind lead us?
I believe those sriptures refer to the fact they didn't recieve Jesus. They had phrophecy to tell them he would come but because they follow they law for their salvation, they are blind. Like if i told you yu have to goto church to be saved I would be blind to salvation but still know church is on Sunday. Likewise they never lost sight of the sabbath but what the sabbath meant.

Teke
Nov 27th 2004, 12:33 AM
I believe those sriptures refer to the fact they didn't recieve Jesus. They had phrophecy to tell them he would come but because they follow they law for their salvation, they are blind. Like if i told you yu have to goto church to be saved I would be blind to salvation but still know church is on Sunday. Likewise they never lost sight of the sabbath but what the sabbath meant.


I've done the study, they changed days, added feasts and named the months after the Babylon captivity to names from Babylon. All just as prophesied by Daniel.

Teke
Nov 27th 2004, 12:35 AM
Also, the sabbath was kept before there was Israel, by the laws of Khummarabi/Babylon. Think it was the same day?

Joe D
Nov 27th 2004, 03:08 AM
I just have three questions.

1. Did Jesus acknowledge the seventh day as the Sabbath day?

2. Is the seventh day during the time of Christ the same as our Saturday now?

3. Did Jesus know what day it was?

The Way
Nov 27th 2004, 03:34 AM
1. yes
2. yes
3. yes

That is not the part I really have trouble with though.

American
Nov 27th 2004, 04:41 AM
The answer to the three questions obviously to be Yes.

qbee
Nov 27th 2004, 05:22 AM
If all those yes'es are tried and true

that seals the deal for me. Sabbath is Saturday.
the same day Jesus recognized...

If it was not, Im sure he would have brought
that to the sadducies attention_
He like doing things like that to them...:lol:

Phish
Nov 28th 2004, 04:15 AM
I've done the study, they changed days, added feasts and named the months after the Babylon captivity to names from Babylon. All just as prophesied by Daniel.
Will you pm the study or where to look for it?

Qara
Nov 29th 2004, 07:40 AM
Has anyone here studied Hebrews 4:1 - 11? I mean really studied it? Using the Greek translations, without just using commentaries?

qbee
Nov 29th 2004, 07:50 AM
Hey but if we believe Saturday is sabbath..

How do we know Saturday today is really Saturday if the
calendars were somehow changed.. Saturday could really
be any day.. So we wouldn't be celebrating Sabbath on
the correct day any way... Wow I confused myself..:lol:

Qara
Nov 29th 2004, 08:15 AM
Hey, my friend, Qbee --

Our G-d knows, and always did know, exactly what we had to work with. He knew that these arguments would come up and is not surprised by them. We work with what we have, in our desire to please Him. He never told us that we had to have things we cannot have in order to please Him -- that was something some of the Pharisees specialized in, not Him.

So He says, "Keep My Sabbaths," and working with what we have, we do it, with delight. We do not need to question the All-Knowing about what we have -- we just do it.

One thing that puzzles me is why people fight Sabbath-keeping so hard, though. The only answer I can think of is that they have not tried it, so they think it is hard work, an inconvenience, a cross to bear, etc. No, as both David and Isaiah wrote, it is a delight.

The Way
Nov 29th 2004, 08:59 PM
I just can not buy the theory that man lost track of what day of the week it is. I know mankind is extremely stupid but if we can't count to seven then God help us cause we're definately all doomed. That theory is the weakest one I've heard for the reason that followers of Jesus should not keep the sabbath. The more I hear stuff like that the more it makes me want to become a sabbath keeper.

Teke
Nov 29th 2004, 09:32 PM
I just can not buy the theory that man lost track of what day of the week it is. I know mankind is extremely stupid but if we can't count to seven then God help us cause we're definately all doomed. That theory is the weakest one I've heard for the reason that followers of Jesus should not keep the sabbath. The more I hear stuff like that the more it makes me want to become a sabbath keeper.


Maybe you need to think about this some more. Like, when did they start counting, what month, and when did that month begin.

Or did they start with the sabbath keeping that was already in effect before Israel became a nation?

Although scripture teaches that the month begins with the new moon, there is debate as to whether it was the dark moon (unseen) or full moon (seen).

The Romans changed their calendar three times before deciding on the one presently used. They formed the calendar to attend to work days, not sabbaths.

Also, if you have a continuous count of days, ie. every seven, then it is not always the same day, like every Sat. or Sun. Days of the week had no names. If the count started on the new moon, that means it started in the middle of the month.

There are many variables to consider. History shows this was no easy task using the number seven.

Joe D
Nov 29th 2004, 11:28 PM
For a Christian to do a study on the Sabbath may not have the best results.

We can sit here and say this could have happened and that may have changed a day and if we're wrong with our assumptions? It's no big deal, we're still saved by the grace of God because we accepted Christ.

Now go ask a group of Jews to do the study, A people who live by the laws. to whom it's essential to keep the Sabbath.

A people who believes their only chance to get to Heaven is obeying the laws.

Now go and tell them...oops, I think you may have missed a day here or there.

I don't think so, The names of days may have been changed from numbers to words but there was always seven days either way, The amonut of days in a particular month may have changed but not the number of the the day itself.

They may have miscalucated how many days are in a year and had to add or subtract days in a year to adjust back, but they never said, well lets change this from Monday to Thursday and lets skip Wednesday, they changed the amount of days in a year to coinside with keeping up with the earths rotation

Next time we do a study we should get some Jews involved in it and ask them where it's possible that they may have misplaced some days.

The Way
Dec 2nd 2004, 02:15 AM
Here is a link to a Jewish website about Shabbat, it is pretty clear to me that it is kept on the seventh day of the week which we have labeled Saturday. From sundown friday to sundown saturday.....I don't really see where all the confusion is coming from.

1+1+1+1+1+1+shabbat +1+1+1+1+1+1+shabbat

I don't see why we are making this so difficult.....work six days then rest one, work six days then rest one, then do it all over again.

http://www.jewfaq.org/shabbat.htm

Teke
Dec 2nd 2004, 01:35 PM
work six days then rest one, work six days then rest one, then do it all over again.

And that is the jest of it, The Way.

I didn't need to read one bit of Judaism to come to that conclusion, just scripture.

Gen 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou [art], and unto dust shalt thou return. Man is to work/labor.


Exd 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

Exd 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

Exd 20:10 But the seventh day [is] the sabbath of the LORD thy God: [in it] thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that [is] within thy gates:

Exd 20:11 For [in] six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them [is], and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.



Ecc 5:12 The sleep of a labouring man [is] sweet, whether he eat little or much: but the abundance of the rich will not suffer him to sleep.

The Way
Dec 2nd 2004, 01:57 PM
Teke,
Its frustrating because I just don't see where all the confusion comes into the equation. I just can't believe that we got off a day somewhere and that the first day of seven is no longer the first etc.

There are many hints in scripture that point to the sabbath being kept prior to the time of Moses giving the law. I personally believe that Adam was taught by God to keep the sabbath and he taught his descendents up through Abraham and Abraham instructed his children and so forth. Jesus said that the sabbath was made for man, not the jew.

It does seem that some of Pauls letters excuse the Christian from Sabbath keeping and this seems contratictory to what Jesus taught. This is where I find the most trouble in my search for truth on this subject. These passages are interpreted differently by sabbath keeping christians and non sabbath keeping christians. It seems to me that everything but Paul points to sabbath keeping.

Teke
Dec 2nd 2004, 02:56 PM
Teke,
Its frustrating because I just don't see where all the confusion comes into the equation. I just can't believe that we got off a day somewhere and that the first day of seven is no longer the first etc.

There are many hints in scripture that point to the sabbath being kept prior to the time of Moses giving the law. I personally believe that Adam was taught by God to keep the sabbath and he taught his descendents up through Abraham and Abraham instructed his children and so forth. Jesus said that the sabbath was made for man, not the jew.

It does seem that some of Pauls letters excuse the Christian from Sabbath keeping and this seems contratictory to what Jesus taught. This is where I find the most trouble in my search for truth on this subject. These passages are interpreted differently by sabbath keeping christians and non sabbath keeping christians. It seems to me that everything but Paul points to sabbath keeping.


It SEEMS like that, the Way, but Paul does speak of sabbath keeping in the NT, he just also says not to let anyone judge you in it.

A study of 1 Tim. and the original word meanings will show that Paul is speaking of the commandments from #4 to 10 in verses 9 and 10 of chapter 1.

There are the use of four specific english words in the english translations of the NT that are of a mysterious origin and often mistranslated from the Greek texts. The four words we are looking for are 'godly' when translated from 'eusebos'; 'ungodly' from 'asebos'; 'godliness' from 'eusebia'; and 'ungodliness' from 'asebia'.

The concept of Sabbath keeping was not a part of the Greek culture. There was never a Greek concept of Sabbath observance.Greeks transliterated the word 'Sabbath' as 'sabbaton' or any of several other variant spellings, each with their own grammatical distinctions.

The Hebrew word /concept was rendered into a Greek near sound-alike word, not a translation into an existing Greek word:No such word ever existed.

If your interested pm me and I'll direct you to a study on this truth. Which also agrees with my Sabbath thread I did in Shorashim on which days also. (a chart)

The Way
Dec 4th 2004, 02:14 PM
Thanks Teke,
I would love to take a look at that study :hug: There are just so many questions still in my mind on this subject. For example:

Mark 2
23***And it came to pass, that he went through the corn fields on the sabbath day; and his disciples began, as they went, to pluck the ears of corn.
24***And the Pharisees said unto him, Behold, why do they on the sabbath day that which is not lawful?
25***And he said unto them, Have ye never read what David did, when he had need, and was an hungred, he, and they that were with him?
26***How he went into the house of God in the days of Abiathar the high priest, and did eat the shewbread, which is not lawful to eat but for the priests, and gave also to them which were with him?
27***And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:
28***Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

Jesus did not say that the sabbath was made for the Jew but for man. So the idea that the sabbath was only for the Jew and not the Greek I can not accept.

Watchman
Dec 4th 2004, 02:50 PM
Thanks Teke,
I would love to take a look at that study :hug: There are just so many questions still in my mind on this subject. For example:

Mark 2
23***And it came to pass, that he went through the corn fields on the sabbath day; and his disciples began, as they went, to pluck the ears of corn.
24***And the Pharisees said unto him, Behold, why do they on the sabbath day that which is not lawful?
25***And he said unto them, Have ye never read what David did, when he had need, and was an hungred, he, and they that were with him?
26***How he went into the house of God in the days of Abiathar the high priest, and did eat the shewbread, which is not lawful to eat but for the priests, and gave also to them which were with him?
27***And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:
28***Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

Jesus did not say that the sabbath was made for the Jew but for man. So the idea that the sabbath was only for the Jew and not the Greek I can not accept.

This question appears to have been resolved in Acts with the early Church. There were only 4 things required of gentile converts. Keeping the Sabbath was not one of them.

Had this been so important, we should believe it would have been stressed.

The necessity for keeping the prevalent Jewish customs had become such an issue that they had to have a meeting about it.

Act 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
Act 15:6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
Act 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
Act 15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
Act 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
Act 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

These Pharisees were saying look, if these gentiles are going to share with us, then they must keep the law, they must keep the circumcision, they must keep all the commandments, they must have the whole lot. We’ve got the whole lot, and so must they. Don’t forget that these gentiles were pagan converts to whom the whole of the OT was completely unknown. They come into this Jewish lot, who had this background of types and shadows to show them the way to God, so what are they going to do about it?

Act 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

They face the question, and this is what they say at the end:

Act 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;

We should stress this abundantly, because this is not just what they thought, it wasn’t just James & Peter and the rest of them, it seemed good to the Holy Spirit.

Act 15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well, Fare ye well.

There it is, v29, and it is easy to miss. Four points of the law, and that is what we are going to ask the gentile believer to keep. Only four points, and it seemed good to the Holy Spirit that that should be so. So look at it. Friends, the Sabbath day isn’t there, and thus, the gentile believers were not asked to keep the Sabbath day.

Now, when you come to Paul’s first epistle, he has some very strong things to say about days. Don’t forget, at the back, was this great opposition to his ministry, opposition to teaching faith apart from law, and apart from works, and all with this great attempt to bring over this law keeping into the gospel. There is a place for law keeping, lets make this clear, but, not - in - connection - with - the - gospel. Not in connection with the forgiveness of sins, not in connection with salvation. You see, they said, without circumcision you cannot be saved, that’s their point, you cannot be saved unless you combine it with law keeping.

So he says in verse nine:

Gal 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

Don’t you see, you just can’t get salvation and forgiveness that way, you just can’t do it by going back and putting the chains on again.

Gal 4:10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.
Gal 4:11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labor in vain.

He says he is afraid of them. Did you catch that? No amount of keeping the day will justify you. He calls it “weak and beggarly”. This word beggarly is just the word “poor”, its translated in the NT about 39 times “poor”. Romans 8 tells us why it was weak; it was weak on account of the flesh. The sinful part of man, makes it impossible. It is weak on account of the flesh.

Gal 4:12 Brethren, I beseech you, be as I am; for I am as ye are: ye have not injured me at all.
Gal 4:13 Ye know how through infirmity of the flesh I preached the gospel unto you at the first.
Gal 4:14 And my temptation which was in my flesh ye despised not, nor rejected; but received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus.
Gal 4:15 Where is then the blessedness ye spake of? for I bear you record, that, if it had been possible, ye would have plucked out your own eyes, and have given them to me.
Gal 4:16 Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?

To the Romans (gentiles) Paul writes:

Rom 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

Well, who are they? One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeht every day alike. Who are they that do this? Well, it is easy to see that the day in reference is the Sabbath day. The gentile convert has never had the Sabbath, as we have seen.

Rom 14:6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it.

Now, if the Sabbath day was obligatory here, Paul never could have written those words. He would never say, well, you have a good conscience towards that day, so there is no reason for you not to keep it, no. He would have said, this day is obligatory, and you must keep it. But instead, he says, you gentiles, you’ve never had it, you’ve never kept the Sabbath day. You should be persuaded in your own minds.

There is nothing here reinforcing the keeping of the Sabbath day.
Some might say, the seventh day is past, and now it’s the first day, which is Sunday. Well, I can’t find any scripture to support that. All I can say is, that our Sunday, which is the first day of the week is always called that. The first day of the week. The Christian, evidently, were in the habit of meeting on the first day of the week, and they never called it the Sabbath, they called it the first day of the week.


It is important that all throughout the Bible, it’s only the seventh day that’s called the Sabbath.

I think most people miss the impact of this next verse which says that man was not made for the Sabbath day, but just the opposite:

Mark 2:27 And he said unto them, The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:

Heb 4:4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.

God rested, not man.

Psa 95:
7 For he is our God; and we are the people of his pasture, and the sheep of his hand. Today if ye will hear his voice,
8 Harden not your heart, as in the provocation, and as in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my work.
10 Forty years long was I grieved with this generation, and said, It is a people that do err in their heart, and they have not known my ways:
11 Unto whom I swore in my wrath that they should not enter into my rest.

So the burden remained.

Heb 3:7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, Today if ye will hear his voice,
Heb 3:8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
Heb 3:9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
Heb 3:10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do always err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
Heb 3:11 So I swore in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)
Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

We have every reason, explained in every way, to enter into His rest, a perpetual rest from the works of the law

Teke
Dec 4th 2004, 04:08 PM
We have every reason, explained in every way, to enter into His rest, a perpetual rest from the works of the law

I agree with this. Christ is our rest from the law. But it is the law pertaining to the flesh else we would have no rest at all.

Yet if one does not consider this provision made by God for man, then a man could work himself to death. Or man might consider he is in Gods rest all the time and therefore at liberty to accumulate great gain which is also not what God intended.

See you can't say God provides a rest, and then say it pertains only to man spiritually. All the ten commandments pertain to man spiritually. To corrupt one is to corrupt them all. And we know from scripture it all starts with the spiritual.

Example, man is to work/labor as God told him to do. Grant it God meant to plant food and gather it, but man does other work also cause he has extra time now in this day and age. He even has time to commit adultery, or murder someone and then if he is a christian he can try to justify himself by saying he is in Gods rest and also has been given salvation which justifys him and all he does. God is mans salvation, does He justify unrighteousness. No.

Just as salvation is a command, since God commanded there is no other way to salvation but by Him.

I don't think it is about the exact day, but that there is a day that man stops to rest and smell the roses, so to speak. When God rested He saw all His work and was pleased. Man could stand to stop and SEE all his work and decide if he is pleased. But then maybe he don't want to look at his mess and see he is not pleased.

God also wants this rest to think on Gods ways and not mans.

All of the ten commandments are taught throughout the NT in many ways. Having liberty in Christ should not be confused with nullifying the commandments. As they pertain to the spiritual building of the individual and not the flesh. Although if the flesh is brought into submission of those commands, it builds the individual spiritually, because they are obedient to the Lord in those commands.

Watchman
Dec 5th 2004, 04:33 PM
I agree with this. Christ is our rest from the law. But it is the law pertaining to the flesh else we would have no rest at all.

Yet if one does not consider this provision made by God for man, then a man could work himself to death. Or man might consider he is in Gods rest all the time and therefore at liberty to accumulate great gain which is also not what God intended.

I don't think it is about the exact day, but that there is a day that man stops to rest and smell the roses, so to speak. When God rested He saw all His work and was pleased. Man could stand to stop and SEE all his work and decide if he is pleased. But then maybe he don't want to look at his mess and see he is not pleased.

God also wants this rest to think on Gods ways and not mans.

And I agree, Teke. Biologically, man as well as all nature needs its physical rest. This was given by God and verified in the cycles of seven, for all nature, the land included.

A main point of further agreement appears to be the lack of the decree for for man's idea of 'Sabbath' in the religious sense, for we as Christians have always rest in Christ, not limited to a 'day'.

BHS
Dec 5th 2004, 09:32 PM
Verse 10 is a clue that what was being spoken of here may have been more than just the “law” – the religious leaders had already added traditions to what Moses had spoken.

Acts 15:10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear?

Verse 10 does not accurately portray the instruction of the Lord given to Moses as seen in the following Deuteronomy passage.

LXE Deuteronomy 30:11 For this command which I give thee this day is not grievous, neither is it far from thee. 12 It is not in heaven above, as if there were one saying, Who shall go up for us into heaven, and shall take it for us, and we will hear and do it? 13 Neither is it beyond the sea, saying, Who will go over for us to the other side of the sea, and take it for us, and make it audible to us, and we will do it? 14 The word is very near thee, in thy mouth, and in thine heart, and in thine hands to do it.

Regarding the Sabbath --

Dr. Bacchiochi in doing his research for his dissertation "From Sabbath to Sunday" found an early quote among the Vatican archives that Christians were still meeting on the Sabbath 300 years after Yeshua's appearance on earth.

Blessings,

BHS

Steve M
Dec 5th 2004, 09:42 PM
Verse 10 is a clue that what was being spoken of here may have been more than just the “law” – the religious leaders had already added traditions to what Moses had spoken.

Acts 15:10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear?

Verse 10 does not accurately portray the instruction of the Lord given to Moses as seen in the following Deuteronomy passage.

LXE Deuteronomy 30:11 For this command which I give thee this day is not grievous, neither is it far from thee. 12 It is not in heaven above, as if there were one saying, Who shall go up for us into heaven, and shall take it for us, and we will hear and do it? 13 Neither is it beyond the sea, saying, Who will go over for us to the other side of the sea, and take it for us, and make it audible to us, and we will do it? 14 The word is very near thee, in thy mouth, and in thine heart, and in thine hands to do it.

Regarding the Sabbath --

Dr. Bacchiochi in doing his research for his dissertation "From Sabbath to Sunday" found an early quote among the Vatican archives that Christians were still meeting on the Sabbath 300 years after Yeshua's appearance on earth.

Blessings,

BHS
But the context is clear that the command of these teachers was to be circumcised.

So do you believe in circumcision?

BHS
Dec 5th 2004, 10:43 PM
Steve,

By saying they must be circumcised, they were really saying they must become Jews. I do not believe it is necessary for Gentiles to become "Jews". Jew and Gentile are to become one new man.

Gentiles may become circumcised if they so choose. Circumcision is not an indication of salvation to me.

Blessings,

BHS

CiY127
Dec 6th 2004, 08:18 AM
I find this thread interesting and overall find my agreement with Watchman's original answer, for the Christian everyday is our rest in the Lord.

I find it interesting that "we" as a society have actually taken the best of both worlds and now have a weekend of rest, where the majority rest both Saturday and Sunday;)

I also agree that "strict obeservance" of a Sabbath was done away with by Paul, and the coucil of elders in Acts. One must keep in mind that the Gospels are the fulfillment of the OT and that all that Jesus Christ said and did must be understood in light of the OT. However, from Acts to Jude in the NT is addressed to "the Church of God" which was revealed to no one in "time past" in the "ages or generations" including Christ at the time he was on earth.

I have only two other comments

Watchman said "It is important that all throughout the Bible, it’s only the seventh day that’s called the Sabbath."

If by this you meant that no other day of the week had a name then you are correct. If you meant that the 7th day of the week was the only day called a sabbath, you are incorrect as the first and last days of many of the feasts were also to be a sabbath.

Joe D said: "The Sabbath day is Saturday. It's a day the Jews celebrate being set free from bondage in Egypt."

Yes the Jews celebrate Saturday (Friday sunset to Saturday sunset) as the Sabbath, but not every Saturday is a celebration of the Jews being set free from bondage in Egypt, that is Passover and the Feast of Unleavened bread.

CiY127

Joe D
Dec 6th 2004, 12:08 PM
Joe D said: "The Sabbath day is Saturday. It's a day the Jews celebrate being set free from bondage in Egypt."

Yes the Jews celebrate Saturday (Friday sunset to Saturday sunset) as the Sabbath, but not every Saturday is a celebration of the Jews being set free from bondage in Egypt, that is Passover and the Feast of Unleavened bread.
Duh:hmm: What was I thinking when I wrote that line.:blush:

Teke
Dec 6th 2004, 02:59 PM
And I agree, Teke. Biologically, man as well as all nature needs its physical rest. This was given by God and verified in the cycles of seven, for all nature, the land included.

A main point of further agreement appears to be the lack of the decree for for man's idea of 'Sabbath' in the religious sense, for we as Christians have always rest in Christ, not limited to a 'day'.

It is not that I contend with anyone on this subject, it's just that every time it comes up the flesh wants to address part of it and not the whole of it. The whole of it addresses both spirit and body.

1Cr 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

Observing a sabbath by a literal flesh rest is also a witness and also glorifys God.


Luk 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

Luk 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Luk 17:22 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see [it].

Luk 17:23 And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after [them], nor follow [them].

Luk 17:24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one [part] under heaven, shineth unto the other [part] under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.

And so we understand that the kingdom within us does not come by observing a day. ie. day of the Lord (sabbath, feast etc.) But instead the observance of a day is the outward witness to others.

To the whole world christians are known as sabbath keepers. And this begins their story to those who do not know God IMO. :)

Watchman
Dec 6th 2004, 03:01 PM
Watchman said "It is important that all throughout the Bible, it’s only the seventh day that’s called the Sabbath."

If by this you meant that no other day of the week had a name then you are correct. If you meant that the 7th day of the week was the only day called a sabbath, you are incorrect as the first and last days of many of the feasts were also to be a sabbath.

I should have been more precise in what I meant. Yes, first and last days of feasts were also 'sabbaths'. However, because of the way the Hebrews determined the starting point of their year, by which the feasts for that year were determined, we can find that the first and last day sabbaths never fell on the seventh day of the week.

That is, "the day of the week" was not 'reset' each Nisan 1, as was the counting for the determination of the feast days for that year.

I find this point interesting.

CiY127
Dec 6th 2004, 07:46 PM
I should have been more precise in what I meant. Yes, first and last days of feasts were also 'sabbaths'. However, because of the way the Hebrews determined the starting point of their year, by which the feasts for that year were determined, we can find that the first and last day sabbaths never fell on the seventh day of the week.

That is, "the day of the week" was not 'reset' each Nisan 1, as was the counting for the determination of the feast days for that year.

I find this point interesting.
Where can I learn about this?

CiY

Watchman
Dec 6th 2004, 09:40 PM
Where can I learn about this?

CiY

Calendars (http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/astronomy/Calendar.html)

Here is a snippet from there.

{quote}The Jewish calendar is based on both the lunar and the solar cycles and is used for computing Jewish holidays. Hebrew days begin at sunset when three stars are visible. An ordinary year has 12 months, and a leap year has 13 months. Every month starts approximately on the day of a new moon. There are three year lengths for ordinary years and three for leap years.


Year type Ordinary Year Leap Year
deficient 353 383
regular 354 384
complete 355 385

In a regular year, months alternate between 29 and 30 days.

The Jewish New Year starts on 1 Tishri, called Rosh Hashana, which celebrates the creation of the world (assumed to be 3761 BC). There is a rather complicated set of 5 rules for determining the date of Rosh Hashana. A formula for computing Rosh Hashana is given by Berlekamp et al. (1982), and a Lisp program for computing the Jewish calendar by Reingold and Dershowitz (1989). {end quote}

Actually, if you think about it, the sun has a yearly cycle of 365.2422
days, while the time between new moons is 29.53059 days. Neither of these are rational numbers, nor are divisible by 7.

and, another quote from Hebrew Calendar (http://www.thewatchman.net/calendar.html) Because the solar year exceeds 12 lunar months by about 11 days, a 13th month of 30 days is intercalated, or inserted, seven times in each 19-year cycle. Other adjustments to the calendar are required periodically to make sure that the festival of Passover follows the first day of Spring.

The problem with strictly lunar calendars is that there are approximately 12.4 lunar months in every solar year, so a 12-month lunar calendar loses about 11 days every year and a 13-month lunar gains about 19 days every year. The months on such a calendar "drift" relative to the solar year. On a 12 month calendar, the month of Nisan, which is supposed to occur in the Spring, occurs 11 days earlier each year, eventually occurring in the Winter, the Fall, the Summer, and then the Spring again. To compensate for this drift, an extra month was added, or intercalated: a second month of Adar. The intercalated Adar II, is added seven out of nineteen years. The month of Nissan would occur 11 days earlier for two or three years, and then would jump forward 29 or 30 days, balancing out the drift.

The Biblical year harmonizes the solar and lunar cycle, using the 19-year cycle of Meton (c. 432 B.C.E.) Meton discovered that after nineteen years the years reckoned using the sun and the moon get back into synch (almost.) It corrects so that certain dates should not fall on certain days for religious convenience. The Jewish year has six possible lengths: 353, 354, 355, 383, 384, 385 days, according to the day and time of the new year lunation, and position in the Metonic cycle. Time figures from 6 p.m. the previous night. The lunation of year 1 is calculated to be on a Monday (our Sunday night) at 11:11:20 p.m. The world began with a hypothetical year 0, corresponding to 3762 B.C.E. Calculations for the calendar are figured in the ancient Babylonian unit of halaqim "parts" of the hour = 1/1080 hour.



Also, I read somewhere else (i'll try to find the reference) where there were only four days of the week that was a possible day for passover preparation to begin. I'll try to find it.

CiY127
Dec 9th 2004, 11:06 PM
Also, I read somewhere else (i'll try to find the reference) where there were only four days of the week that was a possible day for passover preparation to begin. I'll try to find it.
Would love to know that as well. What are the 4 days?

CiY

DansingWall
Dec 20th 2004, 03:44 PM
Hi,
Hello to all
Did ya find those 4 days. Kinda interested.

Watchman
Dec 21st 2004, 02:23 PM
Hi,
Hello to all
Did ya find those 4 days. Kinda interested.

This is the reference I had read some time ago when I was looking for the possible Crucifixion days/dates. When I found it again and reread it, I realize that the date range in it was limited to certain years, and thus it was wrong to think it applied to all years. It means I made a wrong assumption when I read it.

Doigs New Testament Chronology (http://www.doig.net/NTCIV.htm)

Here is a snippet.

-----The day of the crucifixion of Jesus was a Wednesday, Thursday or a Friday. That day on the Jewish calendar was Nisan 14 or Nisan 15, depending on whether the day was reckoned from sunrise or sunset. There are six possible combinations leading to four possible dates of the crucifixion. These dates are Thursday, April 6, 30 CE, Friday, April 7, 30 CE, Wednesday, March 28, 31 CE and Friday, April 3, 33 CE. On which day was Jesus nailed1 to the cross?

The above possible days and dates for the crucifixion are discussed in the chapter, "Astronomical Determination of the New Moon." The surrounding years are there eliminated as possible for His crucifixion. ------



Sorry for the wrong implication. I guess we still don't know

DansingWall
Dec 21st 2004, 06:58 PM
Thanks Watchman

When all the scriptures are studied the only day Christ could have been crucified on would be a wednesday.

Marty O
Aug 29th 2007, 04:03 AM
Hi! Anyone still out there? It looks like this one has been idle for over 2 1/2 years but I think this is where I might be able to have a discussion on the day itself. I tried on another thread but I think this one is more suitable for this question.

Scripture is clear that God does not change. When he rested from His work on the 7th day it didn't mean that he changed because he only "worked" up to that point. When certain laws were given to Israel on Sinai it doesn't mean that he changed because he never gave those laws to them before.

Having said that, I am interested to look at John 20. backing up we know that when God created the earth the day order is clear - evening, then morning. In keeping with that, the sabbath was from sundown to sundown. What I find interesting in John 20 is that the day order appears to be reversed at Christ's resurrection. The wording in John 20 seems to indicate as well that the writer wants to draw special attention to the "that day". Please read John 20 and pay special attention to the order of events and their time of day.

In your responses, please try to deal with the issue at hand using scripture as the basis for supporting or opposing views.

Thanks,

Marty O

VerticalReality
Aug 29th 2007, 12:23 PM
Well I'll be . . .

We have all just witnessed a miracle! This thread has been raised from the dead!:pp

Steve M
Aug 29th 2007, 12:33 PM
Well I'll be . . .

We have all just witnessed a miracle! This thread has been raised from the dead!:pp
It's really fun for me; I was on this thread the first time through, and as I look over the posters I can see who's left... who's still here, and kicking... and who hasn't changed a bit... who's done a 180 in the subject...

Fun stuff.