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ElishebaRuth
Nov 25th 2013, 07:59 PM
Jesus' statement that "it is not goes into your mouth but rather that which comes out of your mouth that defile you" is perhaps my favorite quote of all time (although I'll admit that R. Pirsig and R. Heinlein have a few I love!).


The below is "as I understand it":


As I read Matthew 15:1-20 Jesus and his disciples are ignoring the Jewish (I believe referred to as Levitical) laws that prescribe cleansing in the handling and eating of food. Jesus essentially shrugs off their laws, telling the Pharisees that they are meaningless. Jesus ignored these laws on several occasions including his doing 'work' on the Sabbath.


Meanwhile in Matthew 5:17-19 Jesus states that "not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished".


I am trying NOT to read into the bible contradictions that may be due to my misunderstanding of a passage or a translation. I would appreciate if someone can help me reconcile these passages.


Thanks!
Elisheba Ruth

jayne
Nov 25th 2013, 09:37 PM
Hi, Elisheba Ruth –

Not to worry – There is no contradiction between the two passages you are citing.


As I read Matthew 15:1-20 Jesus and his disciples are ignoring the Jewish (I believe referred to as Levitical) laws that prescribe cleansing in the handling and eating of food. Jesus essentially shrugs off their laws, telling the Pharisees that they are meaningless. Jesus ignored these laws on several occasions including his doing 'work' on the Sabbath.

Jesus never broke nor ignored nor shrugged off any of the Levitical law. He was not a law-breaker even though the religious leaders of the day loved to accuse Him of it. He did, however, preach against gross misinterpretation of the law and man-made tradition which wasn’t of God that these men were substituting for God’s law. If Jesus had been a law-breaker – then that would have meant He was a sinner. And His sacrifice would have been in vain.

In Mark 7, Jesus says this to those people who traded in God’s law for their own traditions.


“He replied, 'Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written: ‘These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. They worship me in vain; their teachings are merely human rules.’ You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to human traditions. And he continued, You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions!”

Their interpretations of working on the Sabbath were wrong. The law said to do no work – specifically mentioned in the law was cooking, harvesting, plowing, building fires, and pruning a field of crops. Healing was not unlawful and giving sacrifices was required. Eating grain from a field was not unlawful.

Every time the Pharisees or other religious group accused Jesus of violating the Sabbath, it was a violation – in actuality – of their own strict and ridiculous addition of traditions.

These “laws” about washing hands before eating – that had nothing to do with hygiene, but ceremonial observance - that the Pharisees were complaining that Jesus was breaking weren’t laws at all!

They were religious tradition. Look carefully at the scripture. Those Pharisees even called it “tradition of the elders” and not “law”. Nowhere in the law were Jews commanded to ceremonially wash their hands before eating.

Those Pharisees just slam made it up along with about 600 or so other man-made laws. It was all for pomp and circumstance – to make themselves “look” religious and pious. And they took those man-made traditions very seriously.

That’s why Jesus said back to them after they accused him of breaking religious tradition , “…and why do YOU break the law?” These men who accused Jesus had created a loophole in the law that said “you shall honor your father and mother” and created a way out of financially taking care of their parents in their old age. They dedicated their monetary possessions to God and could say, “well, my money is going to God when I die, so I can’t help you mom and dad”. Then they spent their money on themselves and left small amounts for the Temple when they died. It was a clear violation of the law.

It was the Pharisees and others who were law breakers. Not Jesus.


Meanwhile in Matthew 5:17-19 Jesus states that "not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished".

Jesus says this in Matthew 5 right before He has to start undoing all the mess the religious leaders have made with adding their own twist to the law of God.

He wanted to make sure that the people didn’t misunderstand Him. He was not there to negate the law, but to see that it was fulfilled – obeyed. And obeyed just as God had intended it to be.

Jesus did fulfill the law. He properly interpreted it and ridded it of man-made traditions. He was the Messiah, coming just as the law foreshadowed. He fulfilled the law by meeting the legal obligations FOR fulfillment – He – being completely sinless and lawful - shed His blood to atone for the sin of those who broke it.

LandShark
Nov 25th 2013, 09:45 PM
Jesus' statement that "it is not goes into your mouth but rather that which comes out of your mouth that defile you" is perhaps my favorite quote of all time (although I'll admit that R. Pirsig and R. Heinlein have a few I love!).


The below is "as I understand it":

As I read Matthew 15:1-20 Jesus and his disciples are ignoring the Jewish (I believe referred to as Levitical) laws that prescribe cleansing in the handling and eating of food. Jesus essentially shrugs off their laws, telling the Pharisees that they are meaningless. Jesus ignored these laws on several occasions including his doing 'work' on the Sabbath.


There is a difference between Rabbinic law and Torah or God's Law. I want to say this... whatever conclusion you make this is important... if Jesus sinned we are dead in ours, you understand that, right? Now, in God's law there is a command that NOBODY can add or take from God's law. So, if Jesus worked on the Sabbath in a manner that breaks the command, he sinned, for sin is the breaking of God's law. (1 John 3:4) He never worked on Sabbath, there is no command that says you can't pick an apple and eat it if you are hungry. What it does say is no WORK, which means picking an apple and selling it on Sabbath or picking an apple and storing it to sell later, would be work. But satisfying hunger is not a sin. Otherwise, Jesus broke a command and we are still in need of a Savior.



Meanwhile in Matthew 5:17-19 Jesus states that "not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished".


I am trying NOT to read into the bible contradictions that may be due to my misunderstanding of a passage or a translation. I would appreciate if someone can help me reconcile these passages.


Thanks!
Elisheba Ruth

The reconciliation between these is when he is dealing with hand washings, he was dealing with Rabbinic Halacha, Jewish Law. When he was speaking in Matt 5:17 he is speaking about God's law. Those are two different sets of law.

jayne
Nov 25th 2013, 10:06 PM
The reconciliation between these is when he is dealing with hand washings, he was dealing with Rabbinic Halacha, Jewish Law. When he was speaking in Matt 5:17 he is speaking about God's law. Those are two different sets of law.

Thanks, I couldn't remember the name.

ElishebaRuth
Nov 25th 2013, 10:28 PM
Land Shark and Jayne

Thank you for your thoughtful replies! I am understanding the issue better but I do have follow up questions and hope you understand I mean no disrespect, I am just trying to understand the words, actions and message of the Son of Man!


Isn't Leviticus God's law? If so, is it a sin to wear garments made of two kinds of clothing (and other seemingly silly things)?
How do we know that Jesus was referring to that specific group of laws and not another? I've read Matthew 5 and don't find it. Where does Jesus specify which group of laws will not change or, how is that conclusion drawn?
"I want to say this... whatever conclusion you make this is important... if Jesus sinned we are dead in ours, you understand that, right?" No, I guess I don't. Jesus said that just by being angry with another you would be judged, and I'm pretty sure He was a tiny bit ticked off when He took a whip to a bunch of merchants in the temple. I know He prayed a lot. I know He got tired, disgusted, sad, and many other human emotions because He was in a human body as the Son of Man. I do not understand why it is important that He be perfect. I understood that it was important that He be human!


Thank you for your time and kind replies!
Elisheba Ruth

LandShark
Nov 25th 2013, 10:49 PM
Land Shark and Jayne

Thank you for your thoughtful replies! I am understanding the issue better but I do have follow up questions and hope you understand I mean no disrespect, I am just trying to understand the words, actions and message of the Son of Man!


Isn't Leviticus God's law? If so, is it a sin to wear garments made of two kinds of clothing (and other seemingly silly things)?
How do we know that Jesus was referring to that specific group of laws and not another? I've read Matthew 5 and don't find it. Where does Jesus specify which group of laws will not change or, how is that conclusion drawn?
"I want to say this... whatever conclusion you make this is important... if Jesus sinned we are dead in ours, you understand that, right?" No, I guess I don't. Jesus said that just by being angry with another you would be judged, and I'm pretty sure He was a tiny bit ticked off when He took a whip to a bunch of merchants in the temple. I know He prayed a lot. I know He got tired, disgusted, sad, and many other human emotions because He was in a human body as the Son of Man. I do not understand why it is important that He be perfect. I understood that it was important that He be human!


Thank you for your time and kind replies!
Elisheba Ruth

I have a different take than most Christians. I don't think God's laws are done away with, but I do recognize that there are MANY commands that we simply can't do. In fact, there are somewhere around 613 +/- commands in the Torah (first 5 books) and of them we can only keep about 100-120. Now, some will probably come on this thread and claim I am cherry picking what I want to do or not do, but the truth is... I am not a Levitical priest, so commandments given to Levites don't apply to me and you. There is no Temple, therefore, any command dealing with the Temple we cannot do. We are not in the land, so commands dealing with being in the land we can't do. When you run through the list (commands for the land itself, animals, woman, etc. also don't pertain to me) there are about 100-120 commands or so we can do. Now you and I will agree on most, almost all of them in fact. We won't think of stealing, killing, serving other gods, making idols, etc. Where you and I (or maybe better said, mainstream Christianity and myself) would part ways is generally Christianity has divided The Law into a set of moral and ceremonial laws, two sets, not one. Generally, the moral is accepted the ceremonial is not. (By the way, tithing is ceremonial according to those who see a moral and ceremonial.) Now, I don't see in Scripture where the law is divided into two groups, it just isn't in there. So, in addition to the things I already mentioned, I personally don't eat unclean animals, we rest on the Sabbath, we take part in the Feasts, and we generally don't wear 50/50. :) Now, whatever you do is fine, that is between you and Father... I am just sharing my perspective, what we do. Years ago I looked at Matthew 5 and had the same questions... when I factored in that God called His covenant everlasting (Psalm 105:8-10) I slowly over time began to see it differently.

To answer your other points:

2. How do we know that Jesus was referring to that specific group of laws and not another? I've read Matthew 5 and don't find it. Where does Jesus specify which group of laws will not change or, how is that conclusion drawn?

>> When God's Law was given He called it eternal. The things that Jesus was confronting and speaking down to, are not found in the Torah or God's Law, they are found in Jewish Halacha. The only way to know that is to gain at least some familiarity with at least all 613 commands, that way, you can recognize which ones are NOT God's Law when he confronts them.

3. "I want to say this... whatever conclusion you make this is important... if Jesus sinned we are dead in ours, you understand that, right?" No, I guess I don't. Jesus said that just by being angry with another you would be judged, and I'm pretty sure He was a tiny bit ticked off when He took a whip to a bunch of merchants in the temple. I know He prayed a lot. I know He got tired, disgusted, sad, and many other human emotions because He was in a human body as the Son of Man. I do not understand why it is important that He be perfect. I understood that it was important that He be human!

>> 1 John 3:4 says that breaking or living outside of the commandments or Law is how sin is defined. You are inferring that Jesus sinned by turning over the tables... so, to prove that you must go to the Torah (first 5 books) and you have to show where getting angry with those who treated the Temple not as set apart but as common is a sin. You won't find a verse that says that, so turning over the tables run by people treating the Temple as common is not a sin. You will not, nor will ANY ONE IN THE WORLD, be able to find a place where Jesus sinned. Again...

New International Version
Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness.

New Living Translation
Everyone who sins is breaking God's law, for all sin is contrary to the law of God.

English Standard Version
Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness.

New American Standard Bible
Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.

King James Bible
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Everyone who commits sin also breaks the law; sin is the breaking of law.

International Standard Version
Everyone who keeps living in sin also practices disobedience. In fact, sin is disobedience.

NET Bible
Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; indeed, sin is lawlessness.

Jesus died without sin, that is the only way he defeated death. So if he broke a command, lived outside of the law, he sinned and we are still dead in ours.

Blessings.

Noeb
Nov 26th 2013, 12:20 AM
"I want to say this... whatever conclusion you make this is important... if Jesus sinned we are dead in ours, you understand that, right?" No, I guess I don't. Jesus said that just by being angry with another you would be judged, and I'm pretty sure He was a tiny bit ticked off when He took a whip to a bunch of merchants in the temple. I know He prayed a lot. I know He got tired, disgusted, sad, and many other human emotions because He was in a human body as the Son of Man. I do not understand why it is important that He be perfect. I understood that it was important that He be human!
Thank you for your time and kind replies!
Elisheba RuthNo he didn't

Mat 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

jayne
Nov 26th 2013, 02:12 PM
Isn't Leviticus God's law?

Exodus, Leviticus, and Deuteronomy all contain some of the law. And yes, it was God’s law.

God’s law for whom? For the Israelite nation. God’s law for when? The law was a foreshadowing of Christ, teaching us what sin is, and is not needed anymore because of Christ's death and resurrection. Galatians 3:19-25 "Why, then, was the law given at all? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come.” Romans 10:1-5 “For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. For Moses writes about the righteousness that is based on the law, that the person who does the commandments shall live by them" God’s law for what purpose? The law was written for the nation of Israel to keep them separate from all other nations and to keep them pure and holy and undefiled. These people HAD to be holy and pure because God was going to bring a holy and pure Sacrificial Lamb from that nation and His name was Jesus. Colossians 2 says that the law was just a shadow of good things to come. And that Jesus Christ is the reality and literally the body and the substance of these great things. A shadow only gives a dim view and cannot be the totality of what is real.

If so, is it a sin to wear garments made of two kinds of clothing (and other seemingly silly things)?
The silliness is only superficially seemingly. There was great meaning behind everything God required them to do or not do. It was sinful for those Hebrew people to wear mixed fabrics. But why? There were lots of laws that required them to do unusual things or to unusually abstain from seemingly ordinary things. Keeping things like seeds, fabrics, and livestock separate reminded them that they had to be separate from the world … to the point of a moment by moment literalness.

The law served a great purpose to the Israelites that it was intended for and for Christians who read it today, but who are not obligated to serve it. It showed what sin was and pointed the way to redemption through Christ. For example - Leviticus 14. It is a beautiful portrayal of the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ symbolized in a legal sacrifice of birds.

I love reading the law and watching how God orchestrated those people to behave in such a pure and holy manner. But what about Christians today?

Are there some laws in Leviticus that are still applicable today? Yes. But NOT because they are "in the law". Laws pertaining to things like murder, sexual sins, coveting, immorality, justice, mercy, and others still carry great weight.

Why?

Because LONG before there ever was a nation of Israel and LONG before the law was every born, murder was a sin and it still is. Adultery, lying, cruel treatment of others, homosexuality, and more were sins from the beginning and are still sins today. It was a sin when Cain killed Abel. It was a sin when Rueben has sex with his father's concubine. It was a sin when the residents of Sodom and Gomorrah participated in homosexuality. It was a sin when Abraham and Sarah lied to two different kings and led them to believe that they were not married. It was a sin when Joseph's brothers allowed their anger at their father to torment them to a hatred of their brother. All of this took place centuries BEFORE the law ever existed.

How could they be sins when there was no law?

Because of God's Holy Nature. We are to emulate Him. God does not murder, steal, lie, and covet. He cannot be cruel, unjust, unmerciful, or unloving. He will not turn his back on his people and seek out another people to love. Ergo, we are to be just like Him as close as we can.

To me, the Holy standard of God's Nature runs like a golden thread from out of Himself into the universe before He said "let there be light", into the Creation, the Garden, and it threaded it's way OUT of the Garden, into the nation of Israel, the law, and it threaded it's way OUT of the law and INTO the New Testament and beyond and His Holy Standard still abides today.

We are to avoid sexual sins and sins of mistreating others and disrespecting God NOT because they are written down in the book of Leviticus, but because these sins represent what is opposed to the holy nature of God.

jayne
Nov 26th 2013, 03:00 PM
How do we know that Jesus was referring to that specific group of laws and not another? I've read Matthew 5 and don't find it.

When Jesus gave the Sermon on the Mount in chapter five of Matthew, he kept saying, “You’ve heard it said”….

Who was he talking to? The ordinary man and woman of the day in Israel. Who was doing the “saying” to those people before Jesus came? The religious leaders of the day whose traditions and emphasis was only on the superficial actions and not the heart and mind and spirit which LEADS to the actions.
Go back to Matthew 5. Start in verse 21.

The Pharisees and scribes restricted the law of murder to just the physical act. Jesus told them that it started in the heart. Anger without cause – contempt for a person’s worth and character – calling them raca and fool.

They also restricted sins involving adultery to just the physical act. Those who’ve struggled in this area KNOW it doesn’t begin with the physical act. It begins with the mind, heart, and soul.

They did the opposite thing with divorce. The scribes and Pharisees were quite open to loosen up the laws there to include divorcing their wives for any selfish and ridiculous reasons. Moses had given men permission to divorce but only because they were so cruel to their wives. In Matthew 19 – Jesus has to explain this to the Pharisees who try to trick him about divorce. Jesus told them that “from the beginning” it was never intended for husbands to cruelly treat their wives like this and that divorcing for any reason except for unfaithfulness was not recognized by God. And if people remarried after divorcing frivolously that it was considered adultery. Even Jesus’ own disciples were shocked at this – they, too, had been so ingrained by the scribes and Pharisees teachings that divorce by a husband could be for whatever he wanted it to be.

In loosening up God’s laws – again – they took the law of making oaths too wantonly. They acknowledge the law of “do not take the Name of God in vain”, but would “swear oaths” by anything else (according to Jesus, by heaven, by God’s throne, by Jerusalem….) Jesus said don’t make those kind of oaths at all. Just let your yes be yes and your no be no. Just let your own simple yes and no be good enough and trustworthy enough. You don’t need to say things like “I swear by all that’s holy in heaven that I will get my check in the bank today.” Why? Because if something comes up and you DON'T get to the bank, then you are a liar and your oath is false and all that is in heaven - according to YOUR foolish words - must not be holy."

Then there is the scribes and Pharisees horrible misinterpretation of “an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth”. They had taught this in context of revenge. But Jesus said that was not right. He said that we are to turn the other cheek, hand over our coat, and walk the extra mile with people. And Jesus was right. The actual teaching from the Law was NOT about revenge, but about legal restitution. It was not about the offended party seeking equal abuse, but about the people of God making sure that restitution was made when a person’s life was taken or harmed. It was definitely not about daily and petty events.

Finally, here’s one of the worst abuses that Jesus had to “undo”. The Pharisees and scribes had actually take Leviticus 19:18 where it says to “love thy neighbor” and ADDED “…and hate your enemies”. That was bold and blatant evil. When Jesus started speaking to the crowd about LOVING your enemies and doing good to those who persecute you – that was a shocker! And it was all because the religious elite had added to the law something that actually defied the law.

Noeb
Nov 26th 2013, 03:56 PM
Thanks Jayne! I have a thread called Matthew 5 about whether Jesus was talking about what the law and the prophets said or what the teachers of it said. It is key to understanding not just the sermon but Jesus' teaching overall.

watchinginawe
Nov 26th 2013, 04:00 PM
"I want to say this... whatever conclusion you make this is important... if Jesus sinned we are dead in ours, you understand that, right?" No, I guess I don't. Jesus said that just by being angry with another you would be judged, and I'm pretty sure He was a tiny bit ticked off when He took a whip to a bunch of merchants in the temple. I know He prayed a lot. I know He got tired, disgusted, sad, and many other human emotions because He was in a human body as the Son of Man. I do not understand why it is important that He be perfect. I understood that it was important that He be human!
[/LIST]

Elisheba Ruth, welcome to BibleForums! This is a pretty good place to delve into these kinds of matters.

As far as Jesus and sin, we have the following directly from Scripture. Based on your questions concerning Scripture in the original post, I believe you hold a high regard for the accuracy of what Scripture states, even to the point of understanding that if Scripture was really all twisted, contradictory, or inaccurate it would not prove a very useful tool to the Christian!

The book of Hebrews gives us this concerning Jesus:

Hebrews 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. 15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

So we see that Jesus triumphed over sin, even though He was tempted as we are. And to LandShark's point, the author adds a "therefore" clause because of that very fact; thus the importance of it. Because Jesus the man lived without sin, He accomplished in the flesh what a Levitical high priest could not. The high priest had to offer sacrifice for himself as a transgressor and for the people. Because of that, the sacrifice was made often. In Jesus' case, the offering (in the sense that Jesus Himself performed sacrifice for sin) was perfect and stood for all time; once and for all.

Furthermore, because of this fact, we can have high confidence in our petitions to God through Jesus. That is one of the reasons why we pray and do in Jesus' name. There is a whole lot more here, but that is probably enough to establish the importance and fact of Jesus' sinless ministry on Earth.

One more passage of Scripture from the Apostle Peter to establish the record:

1 Peter 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: 22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: 23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously: 24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. 25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

ElishebaRuth
Nov 26th 2013, 05:12 PM
Thank you to all who have replied! I am being silent only because you have given me so much to think about! I have more questions, but need time to absorb and study before I formulate them for others. Meanwhile, you have all helped to get me past the block that I had previously. I will continue to monitor this thread, pray, and study, and appreciate all of your thoughtful replies!

Elisheba Ruth

jayne
Nov 26th 2013, 07:58 PM
That's what this place is for. There is no question that cannot be asked.

jayne
Nov 26th 2013, 10:30 PM
Really? You'll walk away that quickly? Please don't. You, yourself said it's hard and people judge you. You gave us some information about yourself in your introduction that is controversial, but we've had a wonderful conversation here. I don't know why it has to stop. I'm asking you not to leave. The person who asked you to tread lightly and be considerate of the rules wasn't doing so in anger or hatred. Please consider staying.

LandShark
Nov 26th 2013, 11:07 PM
I agree with Jayne... I don't know what was said and don't care. There are all sorts of folks on here and we try to watch our words so that we don't sound like the world around us. I imagine if an Admin asked you to watch your mouth, you probably said something that doesn't reflect the character of God. If not... perhaps they erred, but if so this isn't the place for language like that anyway. "Walking in the name of God" which we are called to do, means we walk in a manner that reflects His character to the world around us. That's important and sadly one of Christianity's errors... too many don't understand that and think they can have one foot in God's door and the other in a bar. Blessings!

BrianW
Nov 27th 2013, 02:53 AM
Let's get back to the thread's OP folks.

ElishebaRuth,

You are welcome to post and contribute here especially in a thread that you started. It's a good topic.

Brother Paul
Nov 27th 2013, 02:54 AM
Jesus' statement that "it is not goes into your mouth but rather that which comes out of your mouth that defile you" is perhaps my favorite quote of all time (although I'll admit that R. Pirsig and R. Heinlein have a few I love!).


The below is "as I understand it":


As I read Matthew 15:1-20 Jesus and his disciples are ignoring the Jewish (I believe referred to as Levitical) laws that prescribe cleansing in the handling and eating of food. Jesus essentially shrugs off their laws, telling the Pharisees that they are meaningless. Jesus ignored these laws on several occasions including his doing 'work' on the Sabbath.


Meanwhile in Matthew 5:17-19 Jesus states that "not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished".


I am trying NOT to read into the bible contradictions that may be due to my misunderstanding of a passage or a translation. I would appreciate if someone can help me reconcile these passages.


Thanks!
Elisheba Ruth

These were fulfilled by Him...and we are IN HIM...therefore they are fulfilled in us and for us so we are no longer bound by them.

ewq1938
Nov 27th 2013, 04:09 AM
Jesus' statement that "it is not goes into your mouth but rather that which comes out of your mouth that defile you" is perhaps my favorite quote of all time (although I'll admit that R. Pirsig and R. Heinlein have a few I love!).


The below is "as I understand it":


As I read Matthew 15:1-20 Jesus and his disciples are ignoring the Jewish (I believe referred to as Levitical) laws that prescribe cleansing in the handling and eating of food. Jesus essentially shrugs off their laws, telling the Pharisees that they are meaningless. Jesus ignored these laws on several occasions including his doing 'work' on the Sabbath.


Meanwhile in Matthew 5:17-19 Jesus states that "not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished".


I am trying NOT to read into the bible contradictions that may be due to my misunderstanding of a passage or a translation. I would appreciate if someone can help me reconcile these passages.


Thanks!
Elisheba Ruth

The law is directed at man, not God. God obeys moral laws because that is the nature of God already but Jesus was not subject to the law as we are. He said nearly as much here:

Mat 12:6 But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.
Mat 12:7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.
Mat 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

Greater than the temple of God, Lord/Master of the Sabbath itself means he is above these things not subject to them if He sees fit.

Keep this also in mind:

Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

The Father is speaking through Christ, doing works through him.

Dani
Nov 27th 2013, 04:35 AM
I agree with Jayne... I don't know what was said and don't care. There are all sorts of folks on here and we try to watch our words so that we don't sound like the world around us. I imagine if an Admin asked you to watch your mouth, you probably said something that doesn't reflect the character of God. If not... perhaps they erred, but if so this isn't the place for language like that anyway. "Walking in the name of God" which we are called to do, means we walk in a manner that reflects His character to the world around us. That's important and sadly one of Christianity's errors... too many don't understand that and think they can have one foot in God's door and the other in a bar. Blessings!

Elisheba Ruth,


PLEASE read my post to you in introductions, know I meant it .
I think you have some very good questions, that is how we learn. :)

I will pray that God will speak to your heart on the matter of leaving.

May God Continue to bless you
Dani

BrianW
Nov 27th 2013, 12:03 PM
Alright folks, I understand, truly I do, but from this point forward the discussion in this thread will be in relation to the OP or it will be deleted.

moonglow
Nov 27th 2013, 08:20 PM
Jesus' statement that "it is not goes into your mouth but rather that which comes out of your mouth that defile you" is perhaps my favorite quote of all time (although I'll admit that R. Pirsig and R. Heinlein have a few I love!).


The below is "as I understand it":


As I read Matthew 15:1-20 Jesus and his disciples are ignoring the Jewish (I believe referred to as Levitical) laws that prescribe cleansing in the handling and eating of food. Jesus essentially shrugs off their laws, telling the Pharisees that they are meaningless. Jesus ignored these laws on several occasions including his doing 'work' on the Sabbath.


Meanwhile in Matthew 5:17-19 Jesus states that "not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished".


I am trying NOT to read into the bible contradictions that may be due to my misunderstanding of a passage or a translation. I would appreciate if someone can help me reconcile these passages.


Thanks!
Elisheba Ruth

I realize I am probably going to just be repeating what others have said...my eyes are bugging me too much today to read through carefully all the replies. My understanding is Christ fulfilled the laws because everyone else failed! At some point, everyone broke some of the OT laws, making it impossible to fulfilled these strict laws God gave. The reason He gave them was for a number of reasons. First so the people did have something to follow and guide them as they set up their governments, their religion, and even guiding their day to day lives. But also to show them no one could 'work their way to Heaven'. Salvation had to come only through Christ.

And only Jesus was able to follow all these laws and not break them. The first example you gave wasn't Jesus breaking any laws. The religious leaders had twisted God's laws in order to condemn others. They were trying to trap Jesus. Reading it in context also helps explain what was going on:

Matthew 15:1-20

New King James Version (NKJV)
Defilement Comes from Within

15 Then the scribes and Pharisees who were from Jerusalem came to Jesus, saying, 2 “Why do Your disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat bread.”

3 He answered and said to them, “Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? 4 For God commanded, saying, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 5 But you say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is a gift to God”— 6 then he need not honor his father or mother.’ Thus you have made the commandment of God of no effect by your tradition. 7 Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying:

8 ‘These people draw near to Me with their mouth,
And[e] honor Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
9 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’ ”

They had invented traditions which over rode the laws God had given, in order to ignore the laws. :rolleyes:

Matthew 5:17-19

New King James Version (NKJV)
Christ Fulfills the Law

17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

I use bible commentaries many times to help me more fully understand what some passages mean. It doesn't reply study or prayer, but it useful.

Coffman's commentary: (http://www.studylight.org/com/bcc/view.cgi?bk=39&ch=5)
Verse 17
Think not that I came to destroy the law or the prophets: I came not to destroy but to fulfill.

Of course, this touched on the great difficulty. The Jewish nation had long held the Law of Moses in the utmost respect and honor. Any change in the status of their law was sure to be received unfavorably by them. Therefore, Christ quite early in his ministry took pains to spell out for them his true and proper relationship to the Law of Moses. Nevertheless, the difference in "fulfilling" and "destroying" the Law of Moses was about the same as the difference between "paying off" a promissory note and "repudiating" it. In either case, it is effectively removed. Christ took the law out of the way (Colossians 2:14-16); and yet he did so, not by violating it, but by fulfilling it! Christ fulfilled the law (1) by his own unswerving obedience to it, (2) by his exact manifestation as its promised Messiah, and (3) by enlarging and expanding its teachings, lifting them to a higher and purer level, and by bringing all the Old Testament teachings to perfection in the perfect Law of Liberty.

Verse 18
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass away from the law, till all things be accomplished.

Jots ... tittles ... were the minutest markings and characters, forming parts of letters in the Hebrew alphabet. Christ here expressed full confidence in the Old Testament with the strong warning that it should never be disparaged or set at naught. The New Testament teaches that all of the prophecies of the Old Testament shall indeed be fulfilled (Luke 24:44), that its narratives are "written for our example" (1 Corinthians 10:11), and for our admonition and learning (Romans 15:4).

Here is the principle that the New Testament is essentially an extension of the Old, minus its types and shadows, plus an elevation and perfection of all its latent spirituality. However, the changes in Christ are so radically beyond anything ever dreamed of by the Old Testament prophets that the true connection tends to be obscured. The law of sacrifice was fulfilled in Jesus' death. The law of circumcision was replaced by that "circumcision not made with hands" (Colossians 2:11). The Passover gave place to the Lord's Supper and the sabbath day to the Lord's Day.

Jesus' disciples did not break any laws by not washing their hands before eating, they broke a tradition. The religious leaders would pick on Jesus for even the smallest things while engaging in great sins themselves.

As far as breaking the law on not working on the Sabbath, read Matthew 12 ...the whole chapter so you can see it in context: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+12&version=NKJV

Here is a great website to help you with your studies that include free bible commentaries:

http://www.studylight.org/

God bless