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Aviyah
Nov 26th 2013, 04:08 AM
So there are no more complaints about the direction taken in the other thread, would anyone care to explain what a marriage is and how it is "achieved" Biblically? This is apparently a very obvious answer, and rather than spend a dozen pages asking for clarification, here's an opportunity to explain what marriage actually is at its core to someone who is entirely naive about the subject.

Simply put, what is the bare minimum requirement(s) that a couple must meet for God to consider them married? Scripture reference is a must!

Balabusha
Nov 26th 2013, 04:42 AM
So there are no more complaints about the direction taken in the other thread, would anyone care to explain what a marriage is and how it is "achieved" Biblically? This is apparently a very obvious answer, and rather than spend a dozen pages asking for clarification, here's an opportunity to explain what marriage actually is at its core to someone who is entirely naive about the subject.

Simply put, what is the bare minimum requirement(s) that a couple must meet for God to consider them married? Scripture reference is a must!

I will give an example from Isaac and Rebekah

1.The couple must have an agreement between them, this would be the contract (Kettubah)
Then food was set before him, but he said, “I will not eat until I have told you what I have to say.”
“Then tell us,” Laban said.
-this is the discussion of the terms of the marriage contract, this was usually done by the Father of the bride in order to protect her from being taken advantage of.

2. The couple have to consummate the covenant thru intercourse (Chuppah)
Genesis 24:67
67 Isaac brought her into the tent of his mother Sarah, and he married Rebekah. So she became his wife, and he loved her; and Isaac was comforted after his mother’s death.

The bible does not go into great detail about a marriage ceremony, but there was usually a feast after..this evolved over time.
The contract would be signed and the consummation might not be held for many years, until the groom fulfilled the financial responsibility to the brides father.
The parable of the 10 virgins is about the bride waiting for the marriage to be consummated before being led to the wedding feast.

ewq1938
Nov 26th 2013, 04:52 AM
I will give an example from Isaac and Rebekah

1.The couple must have an agreement between them, this would be the contract (Kettubah)
Then food was set before him, but he said, “I will not eat until I have told you what I have to say.”
“Then tell us,” Laban said.
-this is the discussion of the terms of the marriage contract, this was usually done by the Father of the bride in order to protect her from being taken advantage of.

2. The couple have to consummate the covenant thru intercourse (Chuppah)
Genesis 24:67
67 Isaac brought her into the tent of his mother Sarah, and he married Rebekah. So she became his wife, and he loved her; and Isaac was comforted after his mother’s death.

The bible does not go into great detail about a marriage ceremony, but there was usually a feast after..this evolved over time.
The contract would be signed and the consummation might not be held for many years, until the groom fulfilled the financial responsibility to the brides father.
The parable of the 10 virgins is about the bride waiting for the marriage to be consummated before being led to the wedding feast.

It was what they did in the tent that made them married. It's a physical act that makes two flesh into one for a time.

Balabusha
Nov 26th 2013, 06:10 AM
It was what they did in the tent that made them married. It's a physical act that makes two flesh into one for a time.

It is the physical consummation of a covenant, you cant say that joining to a prostitute is marriage, or the serial monogamy is marriage, or that adultery is marriage...unless you want 2 or more witnesses present HEHE!

Ceegen
Nov 26th 2013, 06:11 AM
A man and a woman who love each other and are sanctified in honor of, by and for the Lord; A piece of paper or golden ring isn't proof of love, it is the endurance of the two over time, and that is what marriage really is.

"Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge." - Hebrews 13:4.

All who marry for love is honored by God, so long as their bed remains undefiled as husband and wife who do not lust after others seeking strange flesh, the marriage is pure.

ewq1938
Nov 26th 2013, 06:14 AM
It is the physical consummation of a covenant, you cant say that joining to a prostitute is marriage, or the serial monogamy is marriage, or that adultery is marriage...unless you want 2 or more witnesses present HEHE!

Obviously it comes down to intent.

67 Isaac brought her into the tent of his mother Sarah, and he married Rebekah. So she became his wife, and he loved her; and Isaac was comforted after his mother’s death.


This wasn't a prostitute. He loved her and wanted her as his wife so he consummated the union physically which is the last part that is needed. A man must love a woman spiritually, emotionally and lastly physically to make a woman his wife.

Balabusha
Nov 26th 2013, 06:26 AM
Obviously it comes down to intent.

67 Isaac brought her into the tent of his mother Sarah, and he married Rebekah. So she became his wife, and he loved her; and Isaac was comforted after his mother’s death.


This wasn't a prostitute. He loved her and wanted her as his wife so he consummated the union physically which is the last part that is needed. A man must love a woman spiritually, emotionally and lastly physically to make a woman his wife.

I think maybe we are not understanding each other? I never said Rebekah was a prostitute, my point is that sex in itself does not constitute a marriage. Some think that if they have slept with someone then they are married to them-this is not the case, they have committed sexual immorality

ewq1938
Nov 26th 2013, 06:37 AM
I never said Rebekah was a prostitute, my point is that sex in itself does not constitute a marriage.

Yes, and I also said, "Obviously it comes down to intent."

Also said, "A man must love a woman spiritually, emotionally and lastly physically to make a woman his wife."

Clearly the act of sex alone does not fit the requirements I have listed.



Some think that if they have slept with someone then they are married to them-this is not the case, they have committed sexual immorality

Sometimes they are married, sometimes they committed sexual immorality. It differs couple to couple based on the above of course.

Balabusha
Nov 26th 2013, 07:31 AM
Yes, and I also said, "Obviously it comes down to intent."

Also said, "A man must love a woman spiritually, emotionally and lastly physically to make a woman his wife."

Clearly the act of sex alone does not fit the requirements I have listed.

I agree, but I think marriage transcends this also, because in a marriage love ebbs and flows with the sands of time, it is a feeling and an emotion, but marriage protects against this with committment





Sometimes they are married, sometimes they committed sexual immorality. It differs couple to couple based on the above of course.

Could you expand on the "sometimes" they are married part?

ewq1938
Nov 26th 2013, 07:36 AM
I agree, but I think marriage transcends this also, because in a marriage love ebbs and flows with the sands of time, it is a feeling and an emotion, but marriage protects against this with committment

How does marriage "transcend" what I said makes up a marriage? I said, "A man must love a woman spiritually, emotionally and lastly physically to make a woman his wife."
What else am I missing??



Could you expand on the "sometimes" they are married part?

Already did in my post. True love of the wholeness of a woman makes a woman a man's wife, same in the opposite for a woman's husband.

Simple, simple truths...

claybevan
Nov 26th 2013, 08:24 AM
Karait posted:

I agree, but I think marriage transcends this also, because in a marriage love ebbs and flows with the sands of time, it is a feeling and an emotion, but marriage protects against this with committment


This post really touched me, marriage is all that others have said, love both emotional and physical but it is that spoken commitment made before God that gets you through (or should) those times when love ebbs.
The conditions and the verbal agreement we promised to keep are so often forgotten and cast aside and when it feels like the heady love and passion that you first felt has gone we 'want out'

Redeemed by Grace
Nov 26th 2013, 02:45 PM
Hebrews 13:4 Marriage is to be held in honor among all, and the marriage bed is to be undefiled; for fornicators and adulterers God will judge.

Vakeros
Nov 26th 2013, 03:10 PM
So there are no more complaints about the direction taken in the other thread, would anyone care to explain what a marriage is and how it is "achieved" Biblically? This is apparently a very obvious answer, and rather than spend a dozen pages asking for clarification, here's an opportunity to explain what marriage actually is at its core to someone who is entirely naive about the subject.

Simply put, what is the bare minimum requirement(s) that a couple must meet for God to consider them married? Scripture reference is a must!
There are lots of meanings of marriage:
1) The social aspect - two people in an exclusive relationship
2) The legal aspect - two people according to law united as one
3) The contractual aspect - two people confirm to remain with one another through thick and thin
4) The cultural aspect - could be more than two...
5) The Biblical aspect - where a man leaves his father and mother and cleaves to his wife

As put above there is the consummation of the marriage through sex. The swapping of rings, joint bank accounts, changing of surnames etc...

However to get back to the real request - Jesus and the Church are the best example of marriage.
We are told to emulate Him.
Some verse in 1 Cor 7:3 & 4, Eph 5:25

Aviyah
Nov 26th 2013, 07:56 PM
1.The couple must have an agreement between them, this would be the contract (Kettubah)
2. The couple have to consummate the covenant thru intercourse (Chuppah)

Would you say that it is not a marriage until consummation? Also, does the agreement have to be mutual? For example,

King Solomon, however, loved many foreign women besides Pharaoh’s daughter .... He had seven hundred wives of royal birth and three hundred concubines, and his wives led him astray. (1 Ki. 11:1,3)

Do you think all 700 women had a say in the matter?

Proverbs 3:5-7
Nov 26th 2013, 08:18 PM
So there are no more complaints about the direction taken in the other thread, would anyone care to explain what a marriage is and how it is "achieved" Biblically? This is apparently a very obvious answer, and rather than spend a dozen pages asking for clarification, here's an opportunity to explain what marriage actually is at its core to someone who is entirely naive about the subject.

Simply put, what is the bare minimum requirement(s) that a couple must meet for God to consider them married? Scripture reference is a must!



from the quoted Words of Christ in Mark 10 {NKJV}

6 But from the beginning of the creation, God ‘made them male and female.’
7 ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife,
8 and the two shall become one flesh’; so then they are no longer two, but one flesh.
9 Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.”

Proverbs 3:5-7
Nov 26th 2013, 08:35 PM
King Solomon, however, loved many foreign women besides Pharaoh’s daughter .... He had seven hundred wives of royal birth and three hundred concubines, and his wives led him astray. (1 Ki. 11:1,3)




King Solomon's regretful consequences point directly back to Deuteronomy 17:17; explaining why God never actually endorsed polygamy in the first place...

Neither shall he multiply wives for himself, lest his heart turn away

Aviyah
Nov 26th 2013, 08:41 PM
King Solomon's regretful consequences point directly back to Deuteronomy 17:17; explaining why God never actually endorsed polygamy in the first place...

Neither shall he multiply wives for himself, lest his heart turn away

Right, but God evidently considered these people married to Solomon, because He uses the word "wives" and distinguishes them from the 300 concubines.

Oregongrown
Nov 26th 2013, 08:53 PM
So there are no more complaints about the direction taken in the other thread, would anyone care to explain what a marriage is and how it is "achieved" Biblically? This is apparently a very obvious answer, and rather than spend a dozen pages asking for clarification, here's an opportunity to explain what marriage actually is at its core to someone who is entirely naive about the subject. Simply put, what is the bare minimum requirement(s) that a couple must meet for God to consider them married? Scripture reference is a must! I didn't read all the posts Aviyah, but I thought I would put in what I think we need to call "marriage" according to the bible. I know there is a verse, let me find it: Romans 13 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. This verse tell me that I need to follow the laws that govern this country. So that is how I would determine marriage, how it is defined here in the U.S. God bless your day, denise, ysic

Vakeros
Nov 26th 2013, 08:58 PM
I didn't read all the posts Aviyah, but I thought I would put in what I think we need to call "marriage" according to the bible. I know there is a verse, let me find it: Romans 13 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. This verse tell me that I need to follow the laws that govern this country. So that is how I would determine marriage, how it is defined here in the U.S. God bless your day, denise, ysic
I would agree with you except, what about when the governing bodies promulgate something contrary to God's Word. We need to know what God considers marriage.

However in answer to Aviyah's post about 700 wives - I posted a number of definitions. These 700 fit within at least one of these. Do this mean that this was God's plan / desire. IOW is this God's marriage? We have Genesis which is quoted by Paul with respect to Jesus and the Church, which is the true marriage. It seems polygamous, yet it is truly for each individual. Solomon NOT being God couldn't truly do what God does.
As a side point I read once that the Song of Solomon was written by Solomon for the woman he really loved and didn't marry - the 1001st woman. Or was it the 1st?

Oregongrown
Nov 26th 2013, 09:29 PM
I would agree with you except, what about when the governing bodies promulgate something contrary to God's Word. We need to know what God considers marriage. However in answer to Aviyah's post about 700 wives - I posted a number of definitions. These 700 fit within at least one of these. Do this mean that this was God's plan / desire. IOW is this God's marriage? We have Genesis which is quoted by Paul with respect to Jesus and the Church, which is the true marriage. It seems polygamous, yet it is truly for each individual. Solomon NOT being God couldn't truly do what God does. As a side point I read once that the Song of Solomon was written by Solomon for the woman he really loved and didn't marry - the 1001st woman. Or was it the 1st? The verse says that those governments can't do anything without God's authority. Could you give me an example of a "what if" and then it might be easier for me to understand what you are getting at.

Proverbs 3:5-7
Nov 26th 2013, 09:32 PM
Quote Originally Posted by Proverbs 3:5-7

King Solomon's regretful consequences point directly back to Deuteronomy 17:17; explaining why God never actually endorsed polygamy in the first place...

Neither shall he multiply wives for himself, lest his heart turn away



Right, but God evidently considered these people married to Solomon, because He uses the word "wives" and distinguishes them from the 300 concubines.


*just trying to clarify* does this response mean that you think that God changed His Mind about multiplying wives/polygamy? :confused & that He actually endorses & approves of it?...

even though King Solomon's regretful consequences (his heart turned away) were precisely as God had forewarned?

Proverbs 3:5-7
Nov 26th 2013, 09:38 PM
from the quoted Words of Christ in Mark 10 {NKJV}

6 But from the beginning of the creation, God ‘made them male and female.’
7 ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife,
8 and the two shall become one flesh’; so then they are no longer two, but one flesh.
9 Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.”


= what God considers marriage
TWO become one...
NOT 10, 50, 100, 500, etc...

Aviyah
Nov 26th 2013, 09:45 PM
*just trying to clarify* does this response mean that you think that God changed His Mind about multiplying wives/polygamy? :confused & that He actually endorses & approves of it?...

even though King Solomon's regretful consequences (his heart turned away) were precisely as God had forewarned?

No, I believe polygamy is inferior to the Edenic union/marriage - but God still considered Solomon married to 700 women because He did call them "wives." So marriage itself is not limited to just one man and one woman. It can be abused.

Balabusha
Nov 26th 2013, 10:25 PM
Would you say that it is not a marriage until consummation? Also, does the agreement have to be mutual? For example,

King Solomon, however, loved many foreign women besides Pharaoh’s daughter .... He had seven hundred wives of royal birth and three hundred concubines, and his wives led him astray. (1 Ki. 11:1,3)

Do you think all 700 women had a say in the matter?

They probably were glad to be in the Kings court, this would have been very prestigious, but the text does not give us this information.
The problem is that even asking this question is not knowing why the Bible included this picture of King solomons life.
The Bible does not brag or condone King solomons actions, it is illustrating the downfall of a unified Israel. Solomons Mother taught him as a young boy to be fauthful to a wife. Solomon relied on his own wisdom, and this led to the downfall of the Kingdom, and eventual exile.
Don't take sexual sin lightly Aviyah, the Bible tells us that this will curse the Land.

Aviyah
Nov 26th 2013, 11:17 PM
They probably were glad to be in the Kings court, this would have been very prestigious, but the text does not give us this information.
The problem is that even asking this question is not knowing why the Bible included this picture of King solomons life.
The Bible does not brag or condone King solomons actions, it is illustrating the downfall of a unified Israel. Solomons Mother taught him as a young boy to be fauthful to a wife. Solomon relied on his own wisdom, and this led to the downfall of the Kingdom, and eventual exile.
Don't take sexual sin lightly Aviyah, the Bible tells us that this will curse the Land.

I know that this was put in the text to show how Solomon had fallen, but what I am saying is that the Bible still says 700 wives - so they were in fact married to Solomon. This means that God recognizes polygamous marriages even though they are inferior to the original intention.

Proverbs 3:5-7
Nov 26th 2013, 11:30 PM
So marriage itself is not limited to just one man and one woman. It can be abused.


INDEED it can (& HAS) been abused; by man's relentless pursuit of self serving, carnal desires...
INSTEAD OF ascribing Wisdom & Authority to God's Will & Purpose for the Biblical Covenant of Marriage

keck553
Nov 26th 2013, 11:53 PM
Since we all profess to be in Christ, these are the requirements for marriage:

22 Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26 to make her holy, cleansing[b] her by the washing with water through the word, 27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28 In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 After all, no one ever hated their own body, but they feed and care for their body, just as Christ does the church— 30 for we are members of his body. 31 “For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.”[c] 32 This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church. 33 However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.

Anything less falls short. And having a state issued a license without striving for the above description of a Godly marriage is just about as useful as marrying an empty suit.

Proverbs 3:5-7
Nov 26th 2013, 11:55 PM
I know that this was put in the text to show how Solomon had fallen, but what I am saying is that the Bible still says 700 wives - so they were in fact married to Solomon. This means that God recognizes polygamous marriages even though they are inferior to the original intention.


& the Bible ALSO says "multiply WIVES" :note: when God specifically FORBID it {in Deuteronomy 17:17} remember?...
so God "recognizing" the issue of men wanting to over indulge themselves, does NOT EQUATE to His approval & endorsement of it

Aviyah
Nov 27th 2013, 12:05 AM
& the Bible ALSO says "multiply WIVES" :note: when God specifically FORBID it {in Deuteronomy 17:17} remember?...
so God "recognizing" the issue of men wanting to over indulge themselves, does NOT EQUATE to His approval & endorsement of it

Again, I'm not suggesting that God prefers polygamy - but He does recognize it legally/morally.

Proverbs 3:5-7
Nov 27th 2013, 12:06 AM
Since we all profess to be in Christ, these are the requirements for marriage:

22 Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord.
23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior.
24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her
26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word,
27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless.
28 In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself.
29 After all, no one ever hated their own body, but they feed and care for their body, just as Christ does the church—
30 for we are members of his body.
31 “For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.”
32 This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church.
33 However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.


:amen: to God's Will for marriage & the mutual responsibilities of both husbands & wives...
for if husbands loved their wives this much; it should be easy for her to willingly submit to him

Aviyah
Nov 27th 2013, 12:06 AM
Since we all profess to be in Christ, these are the requirements for marriage:

I agree, but these verses deal with a couple after they are considered married. My question is what a couple must do to become married and be subject to the Scripture you referenced.

Proverbs 3:5-7
Nov 27th 2013, 12:12 AM
Again, I'm not suggesting that God prefers polygamy - but He does recognize it legally/morally.

the underlined point is what we don't seem to see eye to eye about

ewq1938
Nov 27th 2013, 01:20 AM
God was married to two sisters long ago.

Aviyah
Nov 27th 2013, 02:05 AM
the underlined point is what we don't seem to see eye to eye about

Hmm, well why do you think God chose to call 700 of Solomon's women "wives" if He did not consider them married to him? It seems to me that because this particular title is used for the women, and also because they are distinct from the 300 concubines, that we are to understand that the marital rules applied to all of them despite polygamy being an abuse of the institution.

Balabusha
Nov 27th 2013, 04:04 AM
Again, I'm not suggesting that God prefers polygamy - but He does recognize it legally/morally.

What is happening here is semantics, the Mormons have multiple wives, and we say they have multiple "wives" but this is actually illegal and not recognized by the state
- in your example the Bible would have to state "700 wives but they were not recognized by God" each time they are mentioned. This does not follow grammer in that day, nor in the current day.
The fact that this was Solomons downfall is proof in the pudding.

The only form of polygamy that is endorsed in the bible is a levirite marriage, and that was a form of social security.

ewq1938
Nov 27th 2013, 04:22 AM
God was married to two sisters long ago.


Jer 3:7 And I said after she had done all these things, Turn thou unto me. But she returned not. And her treacherous sister Judah saw it.
Jer 3:8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.
Jer 3:9 And it came to pass through the lightness of her whoredom, that she defiled the land, and committed adultery with stones and with stocks.
Jer 3:10 And yet for all this her treacherous sister Judah hath not turned unto me with her whole heart, but feignedly, saith the LORD.
Jer 3:11 And the LORD said unto me, The backsliding Israel hath justified herself more than treacherous Judah.
Jer 3:12 Go and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, Return, thou backsliding Israel, saith the LORD; and I will not cause mine anger to fall upon you: for I am merciful, saith the LORD, and I will not keep anger for ever.
Jer 3:13 Only acknowledge thine iniquity, that thou hast transgressed against the LORD thy God, and hast scattered thy ways to the strangers under every green tree, and ye have not obeyed my voice, saith the LORD.
Jer 3:14 Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:

percho
Nov 27th 2013, 05:30 AM
It was what they did in the tent that made them married. It's a physical act that makes two flesh into one for a time.

I concur. And I ask why is so much of the word of God of a sexual nature. The idolatry of Israel spoken of adultery. A bill of divorce given by God to the house of Israel for adultery. Even circumcision. Why?
When did trespasses and sin bring death for the ones who would die in the flesh? Why did the Christ have to be born of a virgin?

Just some thoughts that have entered my mind. Could list others but it as if I have taken off my thinking cap.
Thought of another. What did birth pains have to do with Eve? Why is Canaan cursed when it was his father that did something sexually in some manner wrong?

Cap off again.

Ceegen
Nov 27th 2013, 10:17 AM
No, I believe polygamy is inferior to the Edenic union/marriage - but God still considered Solomon married to 700 women because He did call them "wives." So marriage itself is not limited to just one man and one woman. It can be abused.

It isn't so specific as to say that God approved of the marriages, it just says that he married 700 women.

"He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so." - Matthew 19:8.

Jesus said "from the beginning", and we know what that is referring to. That one man and one women marriage model is it, that was the original intent. There is no way one man can have an intimate and foundational relationship with two women, let alone 700 plus the concubines. That's at least "playing the harlot" two a day, every day, for a whole year and not seeing the same one twice. But I guess if you're the king of Israel, it's okay... I mean what else are you supposed to do, sitting around in your palace all the time?

Israel was supposed to be a light to the nations (an example to follow), by following the instructions of God. They kept getting punished for failing to do that.

"For I am the Lord that bringeth you up out of the land of Egypt, to be your God: ye shall therefore be holy, for I am holy." - Leviticus 11:45.

keck553
Nov 27th 2013, 01:36 PM
I agree, but these verses deal with a couple after they are considered married. My question is what a couple must do to become married and be subject to the Scripture you referenced.

That's the commitment part of the requirement. For the social requirement, read John chapter 2. Obviously Jesus approved.

Proverbs 3:5-7
Nov 28th 2013, 11:21 PM
Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah

No, I believe polygamy is inferior to the Edenic union/marriage - but God still considered Solomon married to 700 women because He did call them "wives." So marriage itself is not limited to just one man and one woman. It can be abused.




It isn't so specific as to say that God approved of the marriages, it just says that he married 700 women.

Jesus said "from the beginning", and we know what that is referring to. That one man and one women marriage model is it, that was the original intent. There is no way one man can have an intimate and foundational relationship with two women, let alone 700 plus the concubines.

Israel was supposed to be a light to the nations (an example to follow), by following the instructions of God. They kept getting punished for failing to do that.

"For I am the Lord that bringeth you up out of the land of Egypt, to be your God: ye shall therefore be holy, for I am holy." - Leviticus 11:45.



:agree: Ceegen & appreciate these important points you've contributed

Proverbs 3:5-7
Nov 28th 2013, 11:30 PM
Hmm, well why do you think God chose to call 700 of Solomon's women "wives" if He did not consider them married to him? It seems to me that because this particular title is used for the women, and also because they are distinct from the 300 concubines, that we are to understand that the marital rules applied to all of them despite polygamy being an abuse of the institution.


because God used the EXACT SAME WORD ("wives") when He FORBID multiple "wives" in Deuteronomy's Law

Aviyah
Nov 29th 2013, 12:01 AM
because God used the EXACT SAME WORD ("wives") when He FORBID multiple "wives" in Deuteronomy's Law

Why would He have to forbid having multiple wives if it was not possible to have multiple wives?

Diggindeeper
Nov 29th 2013, 12:52 AM
Would you say that it is not a marriage until consummation? Also, does the agreement have to be mutual? For example,

King Solomon, however, loved many foreign women besides Pharaoh’s daughter .... He had seven hundred wives of royal birth and three hundred concubines, and his wives led him astray. (1 Ki. 11:1,3)

Do you think all 700 women had a say in the matter?

Here is the REST of that story, about Solomon! What does it matter what we think? Here's what God thought!

1 Kings 11:1-6
1 But king Solomon loved many strange women, together with the daughter of Pharaoh, women of the Moabites, Ammonites, Edomites, Zidonians, and Hittites:

2 Of the nations concerning which the LORD said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall not go in to them, neither shall they come in unto you: for surely they will turn away your heart after their gods: Solomon clave unto these in love.

3 And he had seven hundred wives, princesses, and three hundred concubines: and his wives turned away his heart.

4 For it came to pass, when Solomon was old, that his wives turned away his heart after other gods: and his heart was not perfect with the LORD his God, as was the heart of David his father.

5 For Solomon went after Ashtoreth the goddess of the Zidonians, and after Milcom the abomination of the Ammonites.

6 And Solomon did evil in the sight of the LORD, and went not fully after the LORD, as did David his father.

Proverbs 3:5-7
Nov 29th 2013, 01:31 AM
Quote Originally Posted by Proverbs 3:5-7

because God used the EXACT SAME WORD ("wives") when He FORBID multiple "wives" in Deuteronomy's Law



Why would He have to forbid having multiple wives if it was not possible to have multiple wives?


God forbids a variety of sins throughout His Word; yet it (obviously) IS possible for us to commit those sins of our own free will anyway...
in that regard; the ancients are no different than modern humanity... (sadly) they can & do defy the Will of God

Aviyah
Nov 29th 2013, 01:39 AM
God forbids a variety of sins throughout His Word; yet it (obviously) IS possible for us to commit those sins of our own free will anyway...
in that regard; the ancients are no different than modern humanity... (sadly) they can & do defy the Will of God

Right, so if it's possible to sin by having multiple wives, it's only logical to conclude that it is possible to have multiple wives. That means it is possible to marry multiple people - that means the word "marriage" is not limited to two individuals despite polygamy being wrong.

Aviyah
Nov 29th 2013, 01:43 AM
Here is the REST of that story, about Solomon! What does it matter what we think? Here's what God thought!

I'm not disagreeing that polygamy is wrong, but since God still considered all 700 women wives, the requirements for becoming a wife are not even contingent upon God's approval.

Diggindeeper
Nov 29th 2013, 01:54 AM
I see so many of your posts here that show me you are a wise student of scriptures. I just do not get why on earth you have closed your eyes and ears and heart to things like fornication. Why do you hate the idea of marriage so badly? Why do you go on and on condoning 'living together' and PRETENDING to be married?

One of your threads is entitled. "Is Premarital Sex Wrong?" In the very title itself, you CALLED it what it is...PREMARITAL sex!

Why do you hate the idea of marriage so badly?

Aviyah
Nov 29th 2013, 02:13 AM
I see so many of your posts here that show me you are a wise student of scriptures. I just do not get why on earth you have closed your eyes and ears and heart to things like fornication.

I acknowledge that just about anything before marriage is a sin. So naturally, I have to ask what "marriage" is so that I know at what point just about anything is allowed. I don't believe ceremonial definitions are adequate because this would limit marriage to those with a full living family, financially stable under a supportive secular government. I do not believe marriage is defined by society because society's definitions vary even to the point of same-sex unions - and also marriage is not a human creation.


Why do you hate the idea of marriage so badly?

I don't hate the idea of being united with another soul, I hate the conventional process of achieving this unity (church, dress, rings, music, cake, food, parties, pastor, family, friends, government, money, money, money) and the superficial aspects/rituals which only seem to waste time and appease an audience. I'm not saying all these things are wrong - I just want no part of it, and I don't find a Biblical reason for why I cannot be married without any of them

Ceegen
Nov 29th 2013, 03:08 AM
I'm not disagreeing that polygamy is wrong, but since God still considered all 700 women wives, the requirements for becoming a wife are not even contingent upon God's approval.

Where in scripture does it say that God considered them to be valid marriages?

In scripture, especially in the OT, there are lots of things that are stated in a matter-of-fact historical sense. Unless you're seeing "Thus saith the Lord", scriptures are just reporting on the issues as they were. Just because scripture calls them wives, doesn't mean God considered them valid marriages.

The only reason scripture says that they were wives of Solomon was because that was what they were by man's standards, but from the beginning this was not so. (Matthew 19:8).

Aviyah
Nov 29th 2013, 03:21 AM
Where in scripture does it say that God considered them to be valid marriages?

What is a "valid" marriage, and how is it different than an "invalid" marriage Biblically? The reason I believe God considered all 700 marriages "valid" is because:

1) He calls 700 women "wives."

2) He distinguishes the wives from 300 concubines.

3) He prohibits marriage with multiple women in Dt 17. If it was not possible to have multiple wives, God would not have needed to prohibit it because disobedience would be impossible. Such would be like saying "Do not steal from yourself." Stealing means to take from someone else, so this command would be meaningless. Similarly, if God does not consider multiple marriages to be "marriages," then this hypothetical definition of marriage only applying to two individuals exclusively renders an equally meaningless command as with "Do not steal from yourself."

Ceegen
Nov 29th 2013, 04:41 AM
1 Kings 11:1-6 does not say that God considered them valid marriages/wives, it is merely a historical statement of fact that Solomon had 700 wives. I'm sure Solomon probably had ceremonies for each one, a parchment or other legal document proving that he was married to each one, but yeah that's not really an indication that they're marriages which are approved of God.

It'd be like me saying I have a ThD that says I can preach the Word of God, but then go around saying that David and Johnathan were homosexual lovers. I might have a piece of paper that says I can preach the Word of God, but that doesn't mean anything at all. The priests of Baal were still called priests, but that doesn't mean they were good priests. I can even "swear to God" that I'm telling the truth, and still be lying to you.

Does that make sense? Let's try this from a different angle...

"Then said Saul unto his armourbearer, Draw thy sword, and thrust me through therewith; lest these uncircumcised come and thrust me through, and abuse me. But his armourbearer would not; for he was sore afraid. Therefore Saul took a sword, and fell upon it." - 1 Samuel 31:4.

Compare that account to this:

"So I stood upon him [Saul], and slew him, because I was sure that he could not live after that he was fallen: and I took the crown that was upon his head, and the bracelet that was on his arm, and have brought them hither unto my lord." - 2 Samuel 1:10.

Now, just because the Amalekite said that he slew Saul, does that mean he really did kill Saul? Or did he lie? Because what is written in 2 Samuel 1:10 contradicts the account of 1 Samuel 31:4, and yet this is scripture we're talking about? It's not contradictory if we view this as a historical statement of events, in one instance where a man lied about killing Saul, and the truth that Saul committed suicide.

Because Solomon having 700 wives doesn't follow the example of the original model of Adam and Eve, so Solomon was living a lie, not merely just telling a lie.

Aviyah
Nov 29th 2013, 05:41 AM
1 Kings 11:1-6 does not say that God considered them valid marriages/wives, it is merely a historical statement of fact that Solomon had 700 wives. I'm sure Solomon probably had ceremonies for each one, a parchment or other legal document proving that he was married to each one, but yeah that's not really an indication that they're marriages which are approved of God.

It's a historical statement, though, in the Bible. Solomon had wives because the Bible says Solomon had wives.

But my larger point is that God would not forbid something which is impossible to do. He says not to marry multiple women - this means that it is possible to marry multiple women - this means that marrying can be done outside of God's will.


The priests of Baal were still called priests, but that doesn't mean they were good priests.

It's not that I'm saying Solomon's 700 marriages were a good thing, but they fit the definition of marriages. Similarly, the priests of Baal were not good priests, but they still fit the definition of priests. It would be like saying that a priest is only someone who worships Yahweh, and then forbidding people from being priests of Baal ... well, since the definition already excludes being a priest of anyone else, such a prohibition would be meaningless. So it is not the quality of marriages that is being discussed, it is the definitions. And from definitions, it seems that a couple is married when they agree they are married.

Kalahari
Nov 29th 2013, 06:13 AM
Aviyan

According to us Christians there is just one marriage and that is a marriage before God. A lot of people get married and have marriage ceremonies, but it is not before God. A marriage before God is one between a man and woman that make a covenant to each other before God that they will be there for each other in good times and bad. It is a commitment until death do you part. It is an exclusive commitment to your partner that you will have no other. It is a commitment to raise your children, should you be bless to have any, in the ways of the Lord. This you all do under the authority and blessing of the Lord. This is also something that you declare publicly before witnesses to testify that you have made this covenant. The witnesses must be able to testify that you made this covenant to each other, that they are witness to it and that you made it also before God as your witness. Because of this you cannot just declare to your partner that you are now married, it must be before witnesses for we are the body of Christ and are there to help each other. It is also to help you when the enemy comes and attack you to remind you that there are witnesses to your covenant and commitment. So yes, you must agree to your partner that you want to be married to them, but for it to be lawfull it must also be before witnesses. You can decide if you want one or a thousand and if you do want a ceremony or not.

Hope this helped you.

Greetings
Kalahari

Diggindeeper
Nov 29th 2013, 06:14 AM
I acknowledge that just about anything before marriage is a sin. So naturally, I have to ask what "marriage" is so that I know at what point just about anything is allowed. I don't believe ceremonial definitions are adequate because this would limit marriage to those with a full living family, financially stable under a supportive secular government. I do not believe marriage is defined by society because society's definitions vary even to the point of same-sex unions - and also marriage is not a human creation.

I don't hate the idea of being united with another soul, I hate the conventional process of achieving this unity (church, dress, rings, music, cake, food, parties, pastor, family, friends, government, money, money, money) and the superficial aspects/rituals which only seem to waste time and appease an audience. I'm not saying all these things are wrong - I just want no part of it, and I don't find a Biblical reason for why I cannot be married without any of them

Then, just go to a Justice of the Peace or a Judge at the court house....
Or have a minister marry you two at home. Marriage and the church are 2 institutions founded by God Almighty. You are just trying to find a loophole. Sinners or saints who pretend that because they 'claim' to be married, they are. But, they are still having sex outside marriage. Do you introduce your man as "my husband"?

If you hate marriage so much, why do you bother to call him 'my husband'? I just don't get it. There is no biblical reason for NOT getting married if you are going to share a man's bed. We can be certain of one thing....we will each be accountable one day to a Holy God.

Just call me perplexed.... It bothers me that you want to go into a ministry to prostitutes.

ewq1938
Nov 29th 2013, 06:19 AM
Then, just go to a Justice of the Peace or a Judge at the court house....
Or have a minister marry you two at home.

Adam and Eve didn't...clearly getting married doesn't actually involve a Justice of the Peace or a Judge at the court house.

Diggindeeper
Nov 29th 2013, 06:23 AM
Adam and Eve didn't...clearly getting married doesn't actually involve a Justice of the Peace or a Judge at the court house.

So, go ahead and promote sleeping together and BOOM! You're married.

I cannot do that with a clear conscience. Adam and Eve had no witnesses, other than God. WE DO!

Nick
Nov 29th 2013, 06:26 AM
I found this on CBN.com. It was interesting and I thought I'd share it….http://www.cbn.com/spirituallife/CBNTeachingSheets/promises_marriage.aspx

CBN.com -- The wise-cracking Mae West was quoted as saying, "Marriage is a great institution, but I'm not ready for an institution." Sometimes it appears that most people share Mae's cynical view of marriage. Divorce is so common that hardly anyone thinks of it as a tragedy anymore -- except, perhaps, the ones experiencing it. Somewhere along the line the idea of permanence was thrown aside. "Till death do us part" is still part of most wedding ceremonies, but we wonder if the two people take the words seriously.

The Bible has a high view of marriage. It is to be a lifetime plan, not a convenience that can be disposed of in a lawyer's office. The love of husband and wife is, at its best, a hint of the deeper love between a human being and God.

Give honor to marriage, and remain faithful to one another in marriage. God will surely judge people who are immoral and those who commit adultery.

Hebrews 13:4

Drink water from your own well -- share your love only with your wife. Why spill the water of your springs in public, having sex with just anyone? You should reserve it for yourselves. Don't share it with strangers.

Let your wife be a fountain of blessing for you. Rejoice in the wife of your youth. May you always be captivated by her love.

Proverbs 5:15-19

The man who finds a wife finds a treasure and receives favor from the LORD .

Proverbs 18:22

The apostle Paul, who was single, recommended the single life for people like himself, dedicated to God's service. But Paul was realistic enough to know that most people, no matter how deep their faith, were better off married than facing the temptations of the single life:

Because there is so much sexual immorality, each man should have his own wife, and each woman should have her own husband.

The husband should not deprive his wife of sexual intimacy, which is her right as a married woman, nor should the wife deprive her husband. . . I wish everyone could get along without marrying, just as I do. But we are not all the same. God gives some the gift of marriage, and to others he gives the gift of singleness.

Now I say to those who aren't married and to widows -- it's better to stay unmarried, just as I am. But if they can't control themselves, they should go ahead and marry. It's better to marry than to burn with lust.

1 Corinthians 7:2-3, 7-9

Paul also addressed a ticklish situation: What if a Christian's spouse is not a Christian?

Now, I will speak to the rest of you, though I do not have a direct command from the Lord. If a Christian man has a wife who is an unbeliever and she is willing to continue living with him, he must not leave her. And if a Christian woman has a husband who is an unbeliever, and he is willing to continue living with her, she must not leave him. For the Christian wife brings holiness to her marriage, and the Christian husband brings holiness to his marriage. Otherwise, your children would not have a godly influence, but now they are set apart for him. (But if the husband or wife who isn't a Christian insists on leaving, let them go. In such cases the Christian husband or wife is not required to stay with them, for God wants his children to live in peace.) You wives must remember that your husbands might be converted because of you. And you husbands must remember that your wives might be converted because of you.

1 Corinthians 7:12-16

Paul had much to say on the subject of marriage. He has been accused of being "anti-woman" because of his discussion of a wife's "submission." The passage here will show that he did not have in mind an abusive or dominating relationship, but one based on mutual love.

You will submit to one another out of reverence for Christ. You wives will submit to your husbands as you do to the Lord. For a husband is the head of his wife as Christ is the head of his body, the church; he gave his life to be her Savior. As the church submits to Christ, so you wives must submit to your husbands in everything.

And you husbands must love your wives with the same love Christ showed the church. He gave up his life for her to make her holy and clean, washed by baptism and God's word. He did this to present her to himself as a glorious church without a spot or wrinkle or any other blemish. Instead, she will be holy and without fault. In the same way, husbands ought to love their wives as they love their own bodies. For a man is actually loving himself when he loves his wife. No one hates his own body but lovingly cares for it, just as Christ cares for his body, which is the church. And we are his body.

As the Scriptures say, "A man leaves his father and mother and is joined to his wife, and the two are united into one." This is a great mystery, but it is an illustration of the way Christ and the church are one. So again I say, each man must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.

Ephesians 5:21-33

The Book of God's Promises -- Copyright, 1999 by J. Stephen Lang. All rights reserved, used with permission.

Aviyah
Nov 29th 2013, 06:27 AM
Aviyan

According to us Christians there is just one marriage and that is a marriage before God. A lot of people get married and have marriage ceremonies, but it is not before God. A marriage before God is one between a man and woman that make a covenant to each other before God that they will be there for each other in good times and bad. It is a commitment until death do you part. It is an exclusive commitment to your partner that you will have no other. It is a commitment to raise your children, should you be bless to have any, in the ways of the Lord. This you all do under the authority and blessing of the Lord. This is also something that you declare publicly before witnesses to testify that you have made this covenant. The witnesses must be able to testify that you made this covenant to each other, that they are witness to it and that you made it also before God as your witness. Because of this you cannot just declare to your partner that you are now married, it must be before witnesses for we are the body of Christ and are there to help each other. It is also to help you when the enemy comes and attack you to remind you that there are witnesses to your covenant and commitment. So yes, you must agree to your partner that you want to be married to them, but for it to be lawfull it must also be before witnesses. You can decide if you want one or a thousand and if you do want a ceremony or not.

Hope this helped you.

Greetings
Kalahari

I'm willing to accept this definition. :yes:

Aviyah
Nov 29th 2013, 06:33 AM
Then, just go to a Justice of the Peace or a Judge at the court house....
Or have a minister marry you two at home. Marriage and the church are 2 institutions founded by God Almighty. You are just trying to find a loophole.

I just don't find them necessary to initiate a marriage. Not everyone in the world has access to the government or ministers, but I believe everyone in the world has the ability to marry if they wish.


Sinners or saints who pretend that because they 'claim' to be married, they are. But, they are still having sex outside marriage. Do you introduce your man as "my husband"?


For the record, I'm not with anyone. My questions are usually based on my own curiosity and dilemmas I can't resolve. I'm not sure if I'll be getting married let alone conventionally.

ewq1938
Nov 29th 2013, 06:34 AM
So, go ahead and promote sleeping together and BOOM! You're married.

It's more complex than that.



Adam and Eve had no witnesses, other than God. WE DO!

Does the bible require witnesses for a marriage to be valid?

Do you know what the biblical requirements for marriage are?

ewq1938
Nov 29th 2013, 06:38 AM
So, go ahead and promote sleeping together and BOOM! You're married.

I cannot do that with a clear conscience. Adam and Eve had no witnesses, other than God. WE DO!

Also, all couples have God as their witness as Adam and Eve did so if they could be married without a judge or other people then certainly others could be as well.

tkyles1009
Nov 29th 2013, 06:42 AM
So there are no more complaints about the direction taken in the other thread, would anyone care to explain what a marriage is and how it is "achieved" Biblically? This is apparently a very obvious answer, and rather than spend a dozen pages asking for clarification, here's an opportunity to explain what marriage actually is at its core to someone who is entirely naive about the subject.

Simply put, what is the bare minimum requirement(s) that a couple must meet for God to consider them married? Scripture reference is a must!

Hi Aviyah,

I think I'm going to reply to this more with scripture.

Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh. Genesis 2:24

Husbands, likewise, dwell with them with understanding, giving honor to the wife, as to the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life, that your prayers may not be hindered. 1 Peter 3:7

the husband of one wife Titus 1:6

Ephesians 5:33 let the wife see that she respects her husband.

A wife is bound by law as long as her husband lives; 1 Corinthians 7:39

Are you bound to a wife? Do not seek to be loosed. 1 Corinthians 7:27

Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery; Luke 16:18

Let the husband render to his wife the affection due her, and likewise also the wife to her husband. 1 Corinthians 7:3

The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. And likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. 1 Corinthians 7:4

1 Corinthians 7:10 A wife is not to depart from her husband.

You said bare minimums so I'll stop there.

I hope this is helpful to you.
God Bless

psyche643
Nov 29th 2013, 07:05 AM
I just do not get why on earth you have closed your eyes and ears and heart to things like fornication. ...Why do you go on and on condoning 'living together' and PRETENDING to be married?


Okay I just CAN'T help it...Diggindeeper, Aviyah has never condoned premarital sex or fornication...sometimes I feel like you just try to interpret her posts as poorly as possible, so as to paint her in the worst possible light! I'm impressed with how graciously she handles your response. In another thread, you implied she was acting like a dog! Would you consider re-reading her posts? I am certain you will not find anything that states she approves of fornication, like you've accused her of!

psyche643
Nov 29th 2013, 07:15 AM
Hi Aviyah,

I think I'm going to reply to this more with scripture.

Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh. Genesis 2:24

Husbands, likewise, dwell with them with understanding, giving honor to the wife, as to the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life, that your prayers may not be hindered. 1 Peter 3:7

the husband of one wife Titus 1:6

Ephesians 5:33 let the wife see that she respects her husband.

A wife is bound by law as long as her husband lives; 1 Corinthians 7:39

Are you bound to a wife? Do not seek to be loosed. 1 Corinthians 7:27

Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery; Luke 16:18

Let the husband render to his wife the affection due her, and likewise also the wife to her husband. 1 Corinthians 7:3

The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. And likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. 1 Corinthians 7:4

1 Corinthians 7:10 A wife is not to depart from her husband.

You said bare minimums so I'll stop there.

I hope this is helpful to you.
God Bless

These aren't definitions.....are they? LOL sorry, I don't see how this answers the question, though it is a beautiful collection of Scripture for me to ponder in my own marriage!

Balabusha
Nov 29th 2013, 08:33 AM
Hmm, well why do you think God chose to call 700 of Solomon's women "wives" if He did not consider them married to him? It seems to me that because this particular title is used for the women, and also because they are distinct from the 300 concubines, that we are to understand that the marital rules applied to all of them despite polygamy being an abuse of the institution.

Aviyah
Sorry, I made a false statement when I said that God only allowed Polygamy in the form of a Levirite marriage, polygamy was allowed in the Old Testament and the Law of Moses did regulate it,I have to use the Old Testament if you bring up an Old Testament passage.
I guess I have my NT goggles on now...

A wife was a wife because there was a contract, a dowry and consummation, a concubine was a slave girl who was not free, and there was none of the above stipulations, but she had rights under the Law of Moses and was not like a mistress in our understanding. Some passages call the same woman a concubine and in a different passage the same woman a wife. Under the Mosaic Law, the concubine had rights also.

Scooby_Snacks
Nov 29th 2013, 01:46 PM
Would Jesus conversation with the Samaritan Woman at the well help with the question or make the answer further away?

John 4:16-18
Jesus said to her, “Go, call your husband, and come here.”
The woman answered him, “I have no husband.” Jesus said to her, “You are right in saying, ‘I have no husband’; for you have had five husbands, and the one you now have is not your husband. What you have said is true.”

Does he mean that she never legally married anyone, that she legally married five times, divorced five times or that she committed herself in heart, mind, soul, spirit 6 times and 5 of those times were with men not married to others, the 6th time with a man legally married to someone else? Or was she a concubine the 6th time, and not a wife?

Can get a little tricky, for real.
I noticed that in the story of Esther, the King looking for a new Queen (Does that make her his wife?) he brought many virgins to choose from, it was when there was a bond emotionally, mentally, with Esther that he chose her to be Queen over all the other virgins.

Somewhere along the way annulment came along, which does not seem to be expressed anywhere in scripture, but then in the book of Esther, the King demoted Queen Vashti because of her disobedience (They were not of the same mind?) and promoted Esther as Queen.

Oy Vey!

tkyles1009
Nov 29th 2013, 02:02 PM
These aren't definitions.....are they? LOL sorry, I don't see how this answers the question, though it is a beautiful collection of Scripture for me to ponder in my own marriage!

I think they are my friend.

It sums up marriage. Wives are not to depart from their husbands and marry another unless he dies. Each spouse must submit their bodies to the other. Husband need to be affectionate to their wives. Respect for the Husband should be in the household, If a Husband is Married He shouldn't seek to be unmarried or another woman, Each man can only have one wife and each woman one Husband, and you leave your mother and father and establish your own household.

I hope that better answers your question.
Blessings

Aviyah
Nov 29th 2013, 04:36 PM
Genesis 2:24 1 Peter 3:7 Titus 1:6 Ephesians 5:33 1 Corinthians 7:39 1 Corinthians 7:27 Luke 16:18 1 Corinthians 7:3 1 Corinthians 7:4 1 Corinthians 7:10


Thanks tkyles :D

The title may be misleading - if so I apologize. These verses seem to deal with marriage after the fact, and although helpful, they don't answer the question of how to "get" married. Perhaps the verse in Genesis is an exception (is it a requirement to leave your parents?). But most of the Bible when it speaks on marriage talks about how to have a successful marriage rather than what the conditions are to initiate a marriage.

I suppose what I am concerned with is the "marrying" part. Is there a Biblical way to go about this, or is it purely subjective? The lack of verses/passages on the subject seem to indicate the latter.

Aviyah
Nov 29th 2013, 04:43 PM
Would Jesus conversation with the Samaritan Woman at the well help with the question or make the answer further away?

Yeah, this one is tricky since we don't fully understand the situation (I guess we don't have to, because it was meant for her). Since she was apparently with a man who was not her husband, I think this eliminates the possibility that living together = married. So it must have been that she was legally married 5 times?

Ceegen
Nov 29th 2013, 04:53 PM
It's a historical statement, though, in the Bible. Solomon had wives because the Bible says Solomon had wives.

But my larger point is that God would not forbid something which is impossible to do. He says not to marry multiple women - this means that it is possible to marry multiple women - this means that marrying can be done outside of God's will.

God had to forbid something because out of the hardness of our hearts, we redefined marriage to include multiple wives. Humans are clever like that. Instead of changing God's Word, we change the words themselves to mean what we want in redefining words for our selfish benefit.


It's not that I'm saying Solomon's 700 marriages were a good thing, but they fit the definition of marriages. Similarly, the priests of Baal were not good priests, but they still fit the definition of priests. It would be like saying that a priest is only someone who worships Yahweh, and then forbidding people from being priests of Baal ... well, since the definition already excludes being a priest of anyone else, such a prohibition would be meaningless. So it is not the quality of marriages that is being discussed, it is the definitions. And from definitions, it seems that a couple is married when they agree they are married.

I would go so far as to say that priests of Baal aren't really priests, just like some Christians aren't really Christian.

"I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan." - Revelation 2:9.

And we know who they are, regardless of what label they use, by the works they produce in service to what they believe. If what they believe is corrupt, then what they do will be corrupt. Doing works isn't forbidden in the bible, but doing works in order to get into heaven will get you nowhere, and there are lots of religions that are works-based.

"For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit." - Luke 6:43.

Scooby_Snacks
Nov 29th 2013, 05:25 PM
Yeah, this one is tricky since we don't fully understand the situation (I guess we don't have to, because it was meant for her). Since she was apparently with a man who was not her husband, I think this eliminates the possibility that living together = married. So it must have been that she was legally married 5 times?

In speaking with the Woman it seems the largest affront to her own being social outcast was her past and current relationship(s) as this is what Jesus points out. He tells her to sin no more, so apparently something about these things she knew was sin, whatever the cases were, they weighed heavily upon her.

Marriage union does not have this weight, it seems to have the commitment without the weight, where something like casual sex, (without living together) may have absolutely no commitment but still have the weight of conscious sin, living together still has some commitment level as to dwelling...depending on what agreement is made, but the commitment to future marriage could be lacking on both or one parties part.

For me, it is commitment that speaks to marriage, one of body, soul, mind and spirit, especially when both are Christians committed to God and betrothed to Him! But there are laws of the land that if in existence, are to be followed as God calls us to do so.

Since it is nearly Christmas, maybe the Mary and Joseph story will shed some light (or not)

Matthew 1:18-20 *added more verses
Now the birth of Jesus Christ took place in this way. When his mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child from the Holy Spirit.
And her husband Joseph, being a just man and unwilling to put her to shame, resolved to divorce her quietly. But as he considered these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not fear to take Mary as your wife, for that which is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit.

betrothed here is mnesteuo meaning to either woo her and ask her in marriage OR to be promised in marriage, be betrothed.

So not only were they promised, but in fact they call each other husband and Wife and speak of putting away or divorcing!
At the same time the Angel of The Lord tells Joseph not to fear taking Mary as his wife!

Luke 1:26-27
In the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth, to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. And the virgin's name was Mary.to a virgin engaged to a man whose name was Joseph, of the descendants of David ; and the virgin's name was Mary.

Luke 2:4-5
And Joseph also went up from Galilee, from the town of Nazareth, to Judea, to the city of David, which is called Bethlehem, because he was of the house and lineage of David, to be registered with Mary, his betrothed, who was with child.



Joseph and Mary were not "legally" married when she conceived by The Holy Spirit the child Jesus and there was never a "specific" marriage ceremony regarding their "union" that I know of, yet they were committed to or promised to be married (betrothed) and were committed to one another and to God.

The registration process was new, (Luke 2:1-3) and so the reason Joseph traveled to Bethlehem with Mary, to be registered.
They would register as "being one in family", as this was Josephs home town. Mary did not travel to her own town to register (Whatever that town was)
So I find it interesting that it was the law of the land that brought about the direction, which was in fact, God's direction as well!

Scooby_Snacks
Nov 29th 2013, 05:33 PM
Just one more thing, since the angel of The Lord stated do not be afraid to TAKE Mary as his wife, I believe it was the consummation of the promise that was the "taking" thereof.

Proverbs 3:5-7
Nov 29th 2013, 07:24 PM
Quote Originally Posted by Proverbs 3:5-7

God forbids a variety of sins throughout His Word; yet it (obviously) IS possible for us to commit those sins of our own free will anyway...
in that regard; the ancients are no different than modern humanity... (sadly) they can & do defy the Will of God



Right, so if it's possible to sin by having multiple wives, it's only logical to conclude that it is possible to have multiple wives. That means it is possible to marry multiple people - that means the word "marriage" is not limited to two individuals despite polygamy being wrong.


therefore; the concept of "marriage is not limited" would be for those who defy the Will of God

Aviyah
Nov 29th 2013, 07:46 PM
God had to forbid something because out of the hardness of our hearts, we redefined marriage to include multiple wives. Humans are clever like that. Instead of changing God's Word, we change the words themselves to mean what we want in redefining words for our selfish benefit.

I don't think we need to redefine the word to abuse it, because "to marry" is an action. Similarly, you wouldn't have to redefine the word "sex" to include a person who is not your spouse. "Marriage" and "sex" are neutral words regardless of the intentions.

Do not "X" implies that "X" is an action which can be used for disobeying the "do not." Since God says "Do not marry multiple people," that implies that "marry" is an action which can be used for disobeying the "do not."


I would go so far as to say that priests of Baal aren't really priests, just like some Christians aren't really Christian.

But see, it's not the connotations that's the issue, it's the definitions.

Aviyah
Nov 29th 2013, 07:51 PM
Matthew 1:18-20 *added more verses
Now the birth of Jesus Christ took place in this way. When his mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child from the Holy Spirit.
And her husband Joseph, being a just man and unwilling to put her to shame, resolved to divorce her quietly. But as he considered these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not fear to take Mary as your wife, for that which is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit.

betrothed here is mnesteuo meaning to either woo her and ask her in marriage OR to be promised in marriage, be betrothed.

Good thoughts! Maybe there is a difference between legally married and actually married? Since Joseph is called her husband, and divorce only applies to married couples, this seems to be the case.

Proverbs 3:5-7
Nov 29th 2013, 08:55 PM
Quote Originally Posted by Diggindeeper

Here is the REST of that story, about Solomon! What does it matter what we think? Here's what God thought!



I'm not disagreeing that polygamy is wrong, but since God still considered all 700 women wives, the requirements for becoming a wife are not even contingent upon God's approval.


:confused "not even contingent upon God's approval" :confused implying God's Will is not top priority???

Diggindeeper
Nov 29th 2013, 08:56 PM
Okay I just CAN'T help it...Diggindeeper, Aviyah has never condoned premarital sex or fornication...sometimes I feel like you just try to interpret her posts as poorly as possible, so as to paint her in the worst possible light! I'm impressed with how graciously she handles your response. In another thread, you implied she was acting like a dog! Would you consider re-reading her posts? I am certain you will not find anything that states she approves of fornication, like you've accused her of!

HERE is the exact post that you WRONGLY say,

In another thread, you implied she was acting like a dog!


(post 361, page 5)
Re: Premarital Sex: is it a sin or not?

1 Corinthians 6:18
Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication.sinneth against his own body.

Why are we told to 'flee fornication' if there is no reason to.

Friends, we are not dogs! Why act like them?


Now...exactly WHERE did I as much as hint that I was talking to HER? Nowhere! THAT is only your way of being judgmental AGAINST ME. (Not the first time by any means that you show how much you dislike me or what I say anywhere on this board!) And I HAVE read all her posts, just as I have read ALL of yours! I have also read about the many people you report on this board. You report people in threads where you are not even involved.

I still say we are not dogs. Dogs don't comprehend living morally. They go about doing their 'thing', no matter where they are or how many people (including children!) are around. Christians are to live above reproach and we, as humans, have the ability to understand that we are to live moral lives. This post explains it quite well also!

Post #18, page 2, Posted by ChangedByHim
Re: Premarital Sex: is it a sin or not?


Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah
Depends on what sex is defined as, and at what point two people are married.
Ever do a word study on the word concupiscence? That should settle all gray area.

Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: (Colossians 3:5 KJV)

The last book of the Bible talks about these same things!

Revelations 22:12-15
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

The time to do what's morally RIGHT is now, in this lifetime. If we don't, then we could never enter in to the gates of that future city. Our duty is first of all to live according to HIS commandments and also to warn people of the coming judgement. We...not just one certain person, but ALL OF US, have ample reason NOT to act like dogs!

Aviyah
Nov 29th 2013, 09:12 PM
:confused "not even contingent upon God's approval" :confused implying God's Will is not top priority???

You're not reading... I am not implying anything, I am simply examining definitions of words!

Does marriage require God's Will to be defined as a marriage? Apparently not, because Solomon married against God's will 700 times. Therefore, a marital union can be established without acknowledging God.

NO IMPLICATIONS NECESSARY OR INTENDED

Proverbs 3:5-7
Nov 29th 2013, 09:28 PM
I still say we are not dogs. Dogs don't comprehend living morally. They go about doing their 'thing', no matter where they are or how many people (including children!) are around. Christians are to live above reproach and we, as humans, have the ability to understand that we are to live moral lives.
The last book of the Bible talks about these same things!

Revelations 22:12-15
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

The time to do what's morally RIGHT is now, in this lifetime. If we don't, then we could never enter in to the gates of that future city. Our duty is first of all to live according to HIS commandments and also to warn people of the coming judgement. We...not just one certain person, but ALL OF US, have ample reason NOT to act like dogs!

:amen: to this!... may God BLESS YOU; for standing up for HIS MORAL Standards

Proverbs 3:5-7
Nov 29th 2013, 09:43 PM
Quote Originally Posted by Proverbs 3:5-7

"not even contingent upon God's approval" :confused implying God's Will is not top priority???


You're not reading... I am not implying anything, I am simply examining definitions of words!

Does marriage require God's Will to be defined as a marriage? Apparently not, because Solomon married against God's will 700 times. Therefore, a marital union can be established without acknowledging God.

NO IMPLICATIONS NECESSARY OR INTENDED


:huh: WHY would you assert "apparently not" anyway??? :confused

God's Will OBVIOUSLY DOES MATTER IF you're asking the question "what does GOD CONSIDER a marriage?"

:note: the IMPLICATION'S ALREADY THERE in the thread's title question

Aviyah
Nov 29th 2013, 09:46 PM
:note: the IMPLICATION'S ALREADY THERE in the thread's title question[/COLOR][/I][/FONT]

You're not contributing anything. I've asked a question, and if you choose not to answer, then you're wasting both our time.

Aviyah
Nov 29th 2013, 09:50 PM
The time to do what's morally RIGHT is now, in this lifetime. If we don't, then we could never enter in to the gates of that future city. Our duty is first of all to live according to HIS commandments and also to warn people of the coming judgement. We...not just one certain person, but ALL OF US, have ample reason NOT to act like dogs!

Doing what is morally right is why I am asking how to initiate a marriage Biblically.

Proverbs 3:5-7
Nov 29th 2013, 10:34 PM
You're not contributing anything. I've asked a question, and if you choose not to answer, then you're wasting both our time.


it's obvious that you just don't like the answers I've contributed... & now you're trying to save face :blushsad:
but regardless of your obstinate rebuttal :thumbsdn: it's not my fault that you put your foot in your mouth

decrumpit
Nov 29th 2013, 10:39 PM
Aviyah,

I believe that you're looking in the wrong place. I don't think the Bible tells us what marriage is because that isn't the point. Judging by the huge amount of responses you have the Bible is hardly clear about the way we initiate a marriage.

The Bible gives us lots of details about Christian marriage - basically how we are supposed to love in the guidelines of the system.

But at the same time, Paul tells us that the marriage between non-Christians (or between Christians and non-Christians) is moral and valid. The later is sinful, as the Bible is against it, but we must acknowledge that people who marry non-believers are still married. As you have noted, multiple wives are also considered wives. If you acknowledge this, you've opened the door for endless speculation. Not much of it will be fruitful and will only lead to bitterness and accusations (as I have seen in this thread).

God realizes that you are living in a society and all societies have rules for marriage. So while a marriage is more than sex, a piece of paper, a ceremony, a commitment between two partners, etc., it is not less than these things.

I'll hopefully save you a lot of the mental anguish I've gone through by thinking that the Bible must provide a detailed explanation for everything. It can't. So I suggest you embrace your role as a co-ruler of creation with God and understand that he has given you a great intellect to discern this matter for yourself.

Is a marriage two pagan natives in a forest wearing colored headdresses and dancing around the fire to enjoy each other's company that night? Yes, according to the Bible.

Are two Christians that have previously had sex married once they participate in the ceremony? Yes, according to the Bible.

Is a Christian woman who marries a non-believer married? Yes, according to the Bible.

Are a man and his pet rock married if they have the papers? No, according to the Bible.

Are two men married if they have the papers? No according to the Bible.

Proverbs 3:5-7
Nov 29th 2013, 10:52 PM
BETROTHAL {from Nave's Topical Bible}
1.Exempts from military duty (Deuteronomy 20:7)
2.Of Jacob (Genesis 29:18-30)
3.A quasi-marriage (Matthew 1:18; Luke 1:27)
4. FIGURATIVE » See MARRIAGE

* JEWELS » Betrothal presents of (Genesis 24:53)
* MARRIAGE » Betrothal a quasi-marriage (Matthew 1:18; Luke 1:27)
* MARRIAGE » Betrothal made with the spirit (Ezekiel 16:8)
* VIRGIN » Betrothal of, a quasi-marriage (Deuteronomy 22:23,24)

Aviyah
Nov 29th 2013, 11:15 PM
So while a marriage is more than sex, a piece of paper, a ceremony, a commitment between two partners, etc., it is not less than these things.

So would you say the lack of sex, a piece of paper, a ceremony, and/or commitment means it is not a marriage?

Aviyah
Nov 29th 2013, 11:17 PM
it's obvious that you just don't like the answers I've contributed..

Because your answers are not even slightly relevant, and you are projecting a position onto me that I do not hold.

Proverbs 3:5-7
Nov 29th 2013, 11:54 PM
Quote Originally Posted by Proverbs 3:5-7

it's obvious that you just don't like the answers I've contributed..



Because your answers are not even slightly relevant, and you are projecting a position onto me that I do not hold.


the answers ARE DIRECTLY relevant to the thread's topical question... you simply DON'T AGREE with them... as is your prerogative :dunno:

& NOTHING is being "projected onto you" other than the persona you have chosen to display here

psyche643
Nov 29th 2013, 11:58 PM
You report people in threads where you are not even involved.




Yep, because I want to get involved in conversations, and as I'm catching up on the discussion I realize I don't want to jump into a sea of sharks. Since I'm there, I report.

This is my last post on this board, so I will take this opportunity to share my opinion.


WHEN YOU USE CAPITAL LETTERS TO EMPHASIZE YOUR WORDS, IT IS LIKE YOU ARE YELLING (see what I did there?). I have an image of you as a schoolteacher shaking your finger at me. Your words have shown that you are one of the most accusatory people on this board, and it seems like you purposely misunderstand people. None of us are condoning sin, but in your self-righteousness you pretend they are, so you can say "shame on you" and make yourself feel more righteous than them.

Then you hurl random Bible verses at them to show them the error of their ways. The Word of God is a sword, and you shamelessly use it to cut down Christ-followers.

You do not have kind or gentle speech. I have seen people banned for the kind of words you use, yet no one will "demote" you from moderator because of your other strengths.

Our pastor is a fantastic preacher. But when he started mistreating people in the church, they left. He has really great preaching abilities and horrible shepherding skills.

You are a moderator, a leader. You are supposed to be a shepherd. I can no longer place myself under the leadership of a community where one shepherd beats the flock, and the other shepherds look the other way.

Aviyah
Nov 30th 2013, 12:05 AM
the answers ARE DIRECTLY relevant to the thread's topical question...

Um, I asked the question, so I decide if the answer is relevant. If I disagree I have no problem saying so, but nothing you have said thus far has indicated to me that you have even bothered to read my posts. As such, there is nothing to agree or disagree with except my nonexistent position, which is not relevant to answering the question.

Proverbs 3:5-7
Nov 30th 2013, 12:34 AM
Um, I asked the question, so I decide if the answer is relevant.


(in post # 82) you'd asked the question about; "how to initiate a marriage Biblically?"

(in post # 85) I answered verbatim (from Nave's Topical Bible)
about BETROTHAL *** aka engagement... aka initiating marriage
= DIRECTLY RELEVANT to your question

Jake
Nov 30th 2013, 12:37 AM
Aviyah,

Someone actually wrote something in this thread that made a lot of sense, can't remember who said it, but it was along the lines of not finding every single answer to every single life question within the bounds of the Bible, it points us to Christ - who we then follow. You should ask God what marriage looks like for you, don't ask everyone else, you're going to get 100's of different responses, then report back here and we can argue with God about what He told you. :D

Aviyah
Nov 30th 2013, 12:48 AM
Aviyah,

Someone actually wrote something in this thread that made a lot of sense, can't remember who said it, but it was along the lines of not finding every single answer to every single life question within the bounds of the Bible, it points us to Christ - who we then follow. You should ask God what marriage looks like for you, don't ask everyone else, you're going to get 100's of different responses, then report back here and we can argue with God about what He told you. :D

I just don't like basing my decisions on feelings etc... I'd rather have something concrete like text, but I suppose there is no other option in this case.

Proverbs 3:5-7
Nov 30th 2013, 12:52 AM
This is my last post on this board, so I will take this opportunity to share my opinion.



pardon me; for omitting your brow beating ridicule of the mod :dunno:

just hope that someday you'll learn how to recognize zeal & enthusiasm for God... & also realize that there is such a thing as Righteous Indignation, given all the Biblical examples of them... even by The Good Shepherd Himself...

(sadly) it's an all too common misconception; that Jesus was a passive/permissive, complacent Teacher

Jake
Nov 30th 2013, 01:01 AM
I just don't like basing my decisions on feelings etc... I'd rather have something concrete like text, but I suppose there is no other option in this case.

But life doesn't live in the text, the letter of the law kills, the Spirit of the law gives life.

Proverbs 3:5-7
Nov 30th 2013, 01:14 AM
I'd rather have something concrete like text.

if you truly mean this? :confused then why have you consistently disregarded the Biblical texts & links referencing them?

Aviyah
Nov 30th 2013, 01:42 AM
if you truly mean this? :confused then why have you consistently disregarded the Biblical texts & links referencing them?

I haven't.⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣

Proverbs 3:5-7
Nov 30th 2013, 01:55 AM
http://bibleforums.org/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Proverbs 3:5-7 http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=3077735#post3077735) if you truly mean this? :confused then why have you consistently disregarded the Biblical texts & links referencing them?


I haven't.⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣

well; your response to Jake (# 93) seems rather contradictory to that :dunno:

Aviyah
Nov 30th 2013, 02:00 AM
But life doesn't live in the text, the letter of the law kills, the Spirit of the law gives life.

I still think though that Scripture always gives us a general idea of what to do, but I guess marriage is purely societal?

Proverbs 3:5-7
Nov 30th 2013, 02:29 AM
(sadly) modern society seems to be conforming to the anything goes trend on marriage (secular anyway)

decrumpit
Nov 30th 2013, 05:13 PM
So would you say the lack of sex, a piece of paper, a ceremony, and/or commitment means it is not a marriage?

No, because it depends on the society one is in and the commitment between the two partners. But if you are missing one, you might not have a marriage. In other words, they are necessary, but not sufficient, for marriage. Is two people having sex a marriage? No. Is a ceremony only? No. We will have some combination of all of these.

For example, most people didn't get the "certificate" until relatively recently in history. For someone living in a tribal/agrarian society, people just got married in a ceremony and made a commitment. This constitutes a marriage.

But, if you live in a society where "the piece of paper" is required for marriage, it is part of marriage because marriage is a social institution that affects other people.

The Bible doesn't define marriage (as a process/societal institution) because it simply cannot. It can define Christian marriage, but not marriage itself. If man/woman marriage is as old as creation, then it's universal. There isn't a need to put exact parameters on it because it happens in all cultures.