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ob_one
Nov 26th 2013, 09:28 PM
10And his disciples asked Him saying "Why then do the scribes say Elijah must come first?"11And He answered and said Elijah is coming and will restore all things12but I say to you that Elijah already came, and they did not recognize him, but did to him whatever they wished. So also the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands.13Then the disciples understood that He was speaking to them about John the Baptist.

So here I can read it two ways. Jesus said Elijah is coming as in future and already came as past. Is this passage speaking of the same event or does the "Elijah is coming" mean he will come again? And what things is Elijah to restore?

Also:

John 1:21

And they asked him, What then? are you Elijah? and he said "I am not"

So Jesus says he's Elijah, but John says he's not.

I thank any and all responses in advance.

jeffweeder
Nov 27th 2013, 12:34 AM
Elijah was to come and prepare the way for the Lord (Jesus).
John the baptist came in the spirit of Elijah to prepare the way. He already came.
He prepared the way for the Lord to restore all things.

see also Matt 11:14.

ob_one
Nov 27th 2013, 01:25 AM
but why does he say he is coming and will restore all things? Future

jeffweeder
Nov 27th 2013, 01:44 AM
but why does he say he is coming and will restore all things? Future

I believe he was just answering their question....(yes the scribes are correct in saying that Elijah must come first...BUT he already came and you missed it.) Through John the baptists Gospel of repentance, he prepared the way for the Lord to fully restore us all.

scripture of interest..,
Act 3
But the things which God announced beforehand by the mouth of all the prophets, that His Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled. 19 Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; 20 and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you, 21 whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time.

jayne
Nov 27th 2013, 02:25 AM
but why does he say he is coming and will restore all things? Future

Lots of people believe Elijah will be one of the witnesses in Revelation 11.

Brother Paul
Nov 27th 2013, 02:46 AM
[QUOTE=ob_one;3076536]but why does he say he is coming and will restore all things? Future[/QUOTE

Did you ever hear of the principle of Historic recapitulation? When History repeats itself? In the Bible, it is like type and anti-type only not simply similar to the epitome (as in types), but actual...

The Bible says "from Egypt I shall call forth my son" and in every case the one called out IS called by God His son...same here...Elijah has come, came in spirit in John, appeared on the Mount of Transfiguration in glory, and he will come again right before the Parousia (when He comes again) as one of the two witnesses...now think of Messiah? Christ? He was born in Bethlehem right...now read Micah 5:2...His comings forth have been from everlasting and yet He came as the son of man/son of God as Jesus and will return as the awaited scion of David who will destroy the enemies of God and judge the nations (at the Parousia)...always truly Him not a mere type like Joseph or Moses or David...historical recapitulation...

In His love

Brother Paul

ewq1938
Nov 27th 2013, 04:11 AM
Someone can come twice....Jesus shall. So could Elijah.

RockSolid
Nov 27th 2013, 11:38 AM
10And his disciples asked Him saying "Why then do the scribes say Elijah must come first?"11And He answered and said Elijah is coming and will restore all things12but I say to you that Elijah already came, and they did not recognize him, but did to him whatever they wished. So also the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands.13Then the disciples understood that He was speaking to them about John the Baptist.

Also:

John 1:21

And they asked him, What then? are you Elijah? and he said "I am not"

So Jesus says he's Elijah, but John says he's not.

I thank any and all responses in advance.

Elijah was taken in a chariot of fire. Some of the Jews assumed that he never died so they were expecting Elijah to physically return. If he did die, they were expecting him to be raised. Either way, they were expecting physical Elijah from the Old Testament. John was not the physical Elijah who got taken in a chariot from the Old Testament, so he told them "no" because that's who they presumed him to be.
Jesus, on the other hand, said he was Elijah. But Jesus understood the context of Malachi wasn't speaking of the literal, physical Elijah.

Luke 1:16 And he will turn many of the children of Israel to the Lord their God,
Luke 1:17 and he will go before him in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just, to make ready for the Lord a people prepared.”

John came "in the spirit and power of Elijah".


So here I can read it two ways. Jesus said Elijah is coming as in future and already came as past. Is this passage speaking of the same event or does the "Elijah is coming" mean he will come again? And what things is Elijah to restore?

So in light of that...(parenthesis mine)

Matt 17:10 And the disciples asked him, “Then why do the scribes say that first Elijah must come?”
(The scribes were expecting the real Elijah from the Old Testament)

Matt 17:11 He answered, “Elijah does come, and he will restore all things.
(Jesus explains that according to the Scriptures, Elijah does come and the scribes are correct about Elijah coming but....)

Matt 17:12 But I tell you that Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but did to him whatever they pleased...”
("Elijah" was John the Baptist and they missed it)

ob_one
Nov 27th 2013, 01:40 PM
Jayne, I'm beginning to agree with those people. I was always taught that the witnesses were just a metaphor for the New and old testament, but when I read Malachi 4:5 Behold, I am going to send you Elijah the prophet before the great and terrible day of the Lord.

This is why I think Jesus was talking past and present. I may be wrong but, Malachi says" the great and terrible day" that has to only mean the second coming (right)?

ob_one
Nov 27th 2013, 01:43 PM
Rock solid,
Your translation helps me see your interpretation, "Elijah does come", but what about Malachi?

jayne
Nov 27th 2013, 06:16 PM
Jayne, I'm beginning to agree with those people. I was always taught that the witnesses were just a metaphor for the New and old testament, but when I read Malachi 4:5 Behold, I am going to send you Elijah the prophet before the great and terrible day of the Lord.

This is why I think Jesus was talking past and present. I may be wrong but, Malachi says" the great and terrible day" that has to only mean the second coming (right)?

I believe the Malachi prophecy to be talking about John the Baptist AND one of the witnesses in the future.

Here's a link to what David Guzik has to say. I don't agree with him about all he says, but I think he's on track here.

http://www.enduringword.com/commentaries/3904.htm

RockSolid
Nov 27th 2013, 07:17 PM
Rock solid,
Your translation helps me see your interpretation, "Elijah does come", but what about Malachi?

The coming of "Elijah" (John the Baptist) was a sign, a herald of the "day of the Lord" in Malachi. John himself conveys the urgency of it.

The Pharisees and Sadducees of John's day were warned. The "wrath" was going to come upon them.
Matt 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

It was close.
Matt 3:10 Even now the axe is laid to the root of the trees. Every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

Real close.
Matt 3:12 His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor and gather his wheat into the barn, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire.”

So close that they better repent or risk being caught up in it.

Jesus' words are unmistakeable. John the Baptist was the "Elijah" of Malachi, which means that Malachi's "Day of the Lord" was about to happen.
Luke 7:27 This is he of whom it is written, “‘Behold, I send my messenger before your face, who will prepare your way before you.’
Luke 7:28 I tell you, among those born of women none is greater than John...”

Mal 3:1 “Behold, I send my messenger, and he will prepare the way before me. And the Lord whom you seek will suddenly come to his temple; and the messenger of the covenant in whom you delight, behold, he is coming, says the Lord of hosts.
Mal 3:2 But who can endure the day of his coming, and who can stand when he appears? For he is like a refiner's fire and like fullers' soap.
Mal 3:3 He will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and he will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, and they will bring offerings in righteousness to the Lord.
Mal 3:4 Then the offering of Judah and Jerusalem will be pleasing to the Lord as in the days of old and as in former years.
Mal 3:5 “Then I will draw near to you for judgment. I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, against the adulterers, against those who swear falsely, against those who oppress the hired worker in his wages, the widow and the fatherless, against those who thrust aside the sojourner, and do not fear me, says the Lord of hosts.

So either,
1.the judgment on Israel in AD70, in John's generation, was Malachi's "Day of the Lord", or
2. there is a 2000+ year gap between Malachi 3:1 and Malachi 3:2-5, because Jesus specifically says that John the Baptist, not a future "Elijah", was the fulfillment of Malachi 3:1 (Luke 7:27).

ob_one
Nov 28th 2013, 02:21 PM
So in the bible "the day of the Lord" is not always attributed to his second coming?

In the words of Jerry Seinfeld: "Your bending my mind into a pretzel!"

M_Wm_Ferguson_MTh
Dec 3rd 2013, 09:41 PM
As to Matt. 17:10-13: Jesus pointed out here that Elijah (now reincarnated as John the Baptizer?) had no power given to him from the tribal-national God of ancient Israel (YHVH-JeHoVaH) to defend himself from those who beheaded him. It's likely that power was withheld from Elijah/John due to spiritual violence (Matt. 11:12). Nevertheless, Elijah was prophesied to return to "restore all things," but failed (cp. Mal. 4:5-6 with Matt. 17:11). This passage is similarly recorded in Mark 9:11-13.

As to John 1:21: this proof text is found within a spurious passage of scripture (John 1:19-34, a purported testimony of John the Baptizer), so I'll withhold comment on it here.

Diggindeeper
Dec 3rd 2013, 10:10 PM
As to Matt. 17:10-13: Jesus pointed out here that Elijah (now reincarnated as John the Baptizer?) had no power given to him from the tribal-national God of ancient Israel (YHVH-JeHoVaH) to defend himself from those who beheaded him. It's likely that power was withheld from Elijah/John due to spiritual violence (Matt. 11:12). Nevertheless, Elijah was prophesied to return to "restore all things," but failed (cp. Mal. 4:5-6 with Matt. 17:11). This passage is similarly recorded in Mark 9:11-13.

As to John 1:21: this proof text is found within a spurious passage of scripture (John 1:19-34, a purported testimony of John the Baptizer), so I'll withhold comment on it here.

This entire post, in my opinion, can be discarded and not considered due to the fact that you said this:


Jesus pointed out here that Elijah (now reincarnated as John the Baptizer?)

The holy scriptures do not teach 'reincarnation' in any shape, form or fashion. That was a tool of the devil, first brought out in the Garden of Eden, when that old serpent said, 'YOU SHALL NOT SURELY DIE!" It was a lie then. Its a lie to this day.

Hebrews 9:27
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

There are no second chances. Once we meet death, our time is up. There will be no more chances, even as another person or as an animal or even as our great grandpappy!

M_Wm_Ferguson_MTh
Dec 4th 2013, 04:22 PM
The holy scriptures do not teach 'reincarnation' in any shape, form or fashion. That was a tool of the devil, first brought out in the Garden of Eden, when that old serpent said, 'YOU SHALL NOT SURELY DIE!" It was a lie then. Its a lie to this day.....I suggest:
1: you re-read what I wrote as the rhetorical interrogatory it was intended to be (or have you not been informed of what is, or how to identify, a rhetorical question?)
2: spare me the Judaism-influenced rhetoric propagated by your preferred Judeo-Christian worship organization, in which I am well versed and need neither you nor the pro-Orthodox Bible teachers of your choice to further instruct me.


Let's once more examine that controversial passage:

And his disciples, questioning him, said, Why then do the scribes say that Elijah has to come first?
And in answer he said, Elijah truly has to come ...:
But I say to you that Elijah has come,...
Then the disciples understood that he was talking to them of John the Baptist. ~Matt. 17:10-13 BBE KJV
This passage clearly alludes to the possibility of reincarnation. Disagree? Then perhaps you should further discuss this possibility with:
a) your preferred Bible teachers;
b) the One to whom the words are attributed, or
c) the Orthodox Judeo-Christian redactors of the Matthew Gospel.

shepherdsword
Dec 4th 2013, 06:08 PM
I suggest:
1: you re-read what I wrote as the rhetorical interrogatory it was intended to be (or have you not been informed of what is, or how to identify, a rhetorical question?)
2: spare me the Judaism-influenced rhetoric propagated by your preferred Judeo-Christian worship organization, in which I am well versed and need neither you nor the pro-Orthodox Bible teachers of your choice to further instruct me.


Let's once more examine that controversial passage:

This passage clearly alludes to the possibility of reincarnation. Disagree? Then perhaps you should further discuss this possibility with:
a) your preferred Bible teachers;
b) the One to whom the words are attributed, or
c) the Orthodox Judeo-Christian redactors of the Matthew Gospel.




The scripture declares that it it appointed to man once to die and after this the judgement. There is no reincarnation.

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

jayne
Dec 4th 2013, 06:16 PM
It is very clear that when the angel Gabriel came to John the Baptist's father to tell of his birth (Luke 1) that John the Baptist would go before Jesus in the "spirit and power" of Elijah.

The same Godly power purpose and Godly spirit of purpose that God put upon Elijah, He also anointed John the Baptist with. No reincarnation.

M_Wm_Ferguson_MTh
Dec 4th 2013, 07:33 PM
The scripture declares ... [t]here is no reincarnation.Of course it does. What else would you expect the Judaism-influenced, canonized, anti-infidel, official religious dogma of the pro-Orthodox, Judeo-Christian churches to say?

Besides, how do you know, with any degree of certainty, that it's impossible for the spirit of a human being, after their death, to be physically re-embodied (re-incarnated) as another incarnate human being--and perhaps many times over? Your tone implies you're as certain of that as you seem to be certain that spiritual judgment, heaven, and hell are realities (as faith-full Christians are repeatedly insured).

Now, I've shown how the Bible at Matthew 17:11-12 alludes (makes a Jesus-style disguised reference) to the possibility of reincarnation (cp. Mal. 4:5-6b; Matt. 11:13-15; Mark 9:11-12a, 13; Luke 7:26-27). So, please proffer your exo-biblical evidence that possibility does NOT exist?

Diggindeeper
Dec 4th 2013, 07:45 PM
Thread closed until Mods can review the whole thread.

BrianW
Dec 4th 2013, 08:34 PM
Mod Note: Quite simply Bible Chat ( And the majority of Bible Forums) is a place to discuss scripture and accepted Protestant doctrine and theology. Keep the reincarnation and other heresy ( in THIS case an opinion or doctrine contrary to Protestant doctrine and theology and or tenets ) in the proper place for it. Areopagus http://bibleforums.org/forumdisplay.php/46-Areopagus

BrianW
Dec 4th 2013, 08:43 PM
M_Wm_Ferguson_MTh,

Start a thread in the Chat To Moderators section addressed to BrianW. Failure to do so in a timely manner can and will result in your posting privileges being restricted.

The C2M forum can be found here: http://bibleforums.org/forumdisplay.php/84-Chat-to-the-moderators