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ChangedByHim
Nov 28th 2013, 03:27 PM
Matthew 18:21 Then Peter came to Him and said, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?” 22 Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.

What's your practice on forgiveness? I try to be quick to ask forgiveness and also quick to forgive. But I have noticed in real life as well as on this board, that some Christians are neither.

Since, we can all relate to scenarios on this board, let's use that for an example. When someone crosses the line and posts something unlike Christ (which I have done), does this person admit their fault and ask forgiveness or do they dig in their position deeper? When someone does ask forgiveness, do you respond and forgive or do you ignore it and choose not to forgive?

In real life, I see the same dynamic and PRIDE is the root of this problem. God has been teaching me for some time now to admit my faults and also to walk in total forgiveness. I am trying to teach my church the same.

When I admit my faults you may think less of me, but God thinks more of me. That's all that matters to me.

If there is anyone in your life who you have not forgiven, please do so today. It's been said that unforgiveness is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to get sick. It only hurts yourself.

Matthew 6:15 But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

the Seeker
Nov 28th 2013, 04:50 PM
Forgiveness is the easiest concept that is the most difficult to practice. To say, I forgive you, is easy, when we talk or write about it. Saying, "I am sorry" is just as easy. How often is it practiced in reality? That's a different story altogether. Jesus tells us that we are to forgive one another of our sins, but when our feelings get hurt, or we are actually wronged, we, as humans, naturally gravitate towards revenge. It is as natural as waking up, because most of us feel a sense of justice. When we are wronged, we do not wish to see that person forgiven. What feelings bubble up when someone mentions the name, Jim Jones. It's cool, I feel the same way Anger, a wish to go back in time to... do unChristian things to that man.

God knows that this feeling is inside of us, and yet, He tells us that our righteousness must exceed that of the Pharisees. We, as humans, can not exceed the righteousness of the Pharisees since we are slaves to sin. However, with the Lord, all things are possible. Forgiveness is one o them. Jesus by making the 70x7 commandment because God also knows that we ALL make mistakes, and we have to fight a corruption that has been around since the Garden of Eden. So, how many times do we need to ask for forgiveness? The answer is that we need to be forgiven as many times as necessary in order to fulfil our task of exceeding the righteousness of the Pharisees. Knowing this, God gave us this command, to forgive each other as many times as necessary. I don't know about everyone else, but I reached the 490 mark a LONG TIME AGO.

So, I agree with you, and add that the 490 times is not enough to actually forgive someone of his or her sins. I sin daily. I wish I didn't. I am not strong enough to overcome my sinful nature sometimes. When that happens, I go to the Lord for forgiveness. How can I expect forgiveness of my sins when I do not forgive others? Jesus has it right. Forgive, so we can be forgiven.

Aviyah
Nov 28th 2013, 07:48 PM
I actually find it hard to hold grudges, and it sometimes bothers me that I can't stay mad at someone for more than a few days.

Nick
Nov 28th 2013, 10:14 PM
I remember reading somewhere that the number 490 has some other spiritual significance to it. At first, I thought it was the years in captivity but that was 430, not 490.

Brother Paul
Nov 29th 2013, 04:55 AM
Remember, Jesus repeats it three times, He says "If He repents..."

Francis Drake
Nov 29th 2013, 02:16 PM
Matthew 18:21 Then Peter came to Him and said, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?” 22 Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.

What's your practice on forgiveness? I try to be quick to ask forgiveness and also quick to forgive. But I have noticed in real life as well as on this board, that some Christians are neither.

Since, we can all relate to scenarios on this board, let's use that for an example. When someone crosses the line and posts something unlike Christ (which I have done), does this person admit their fault and ask forgiveness or do they dig in their position deeper? When someone does ask forgiveness, do you respond and forgive or do you ignore it and choose not to forgive?

In real life, I see the same dynamic and PRIDE is the root of this problem. God has been teaching me for some time now to admit my faults and also to walk in total forgiveness. I am trying to teach my church the same.

When I admit my faults you may think less of me, but God thinks more of me. That's all that matters to me.

If there is anyone in your life who you have not forgiven, please do so today. It's been said that unforgiveness is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to get sick. It only hurts yourself.

Matthew 6:15 But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Walking in forgiveness is absolutely essential if we really are serious about walking with the Lord.

I always try to forgive quickly and admit my error quickly, it pays dividends.

I believe one of the problems we have with forgiveness as believers is a completely false comprehension of what the word means in scripture.

In general English usage, the word forgive or forgiveness has emotional connotations. ie. If someone offends us, we may take weeks, even years, even a life time, to forgive either the person, or even the event which caused the pain. The speed of our decision is generally determined by the extent of the pain we still feel. Forgiveness has to wait until the time we are sufficiently ok about our pain.

In English, too much feeling is associated to the word, which is not there in the original Greek of the scripture.

The most used Greek word for forgiveness is "Aphiemi", or derivatives of it. It will come as a shock to most people to see what the word actually means.

Aphiemi is all these and more. -
Send away,
release,
let go,
permit.
divorce,
etc.
There is no hint of feelings attached to any of it.

The range of verses where aphiemi is used, but not translated as forgive will help understanding of the word.

Paul on divorce.
1Cor7v12But to the rest I say, not the Lord, that if any brother has a wife who is an unbeliever, and she consents to live with him, he must not divorce her. (or let him not forgive her?)

The woman at the well.
John4v28. So the woman left (forgave) her waterpot, and went into the city and said to the men,

The crucifixion.
Matt27v50. And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up (forgave) His spirit.


Scripture is full of samples like these. I did a concordance search many years ago, and it opened my eyes.
Aphiemi would in my view be far better translated as, "let go", "forego", or "release". The word forgive is too tied up with our emotions.

I always forgive people because of "enlightened self interest". I don't forgive people or events because I wish to show any superior spirituality. I forgive for my own sake rather than theirs! I seriously value the amazing freedom that walking a life of constant forgiveness can give me.
I think it was Joyce Meyer who rightly said, "Unforgiveness, is like drinking poison, and waiting for the other person to die!" An amazing truth to deeply consider.

Unforgiveness is like a rope which binds a person to someone else, or to some past event. It is as if we are still waiting for recompense, which most likely will never come.
If we have lost a childhood because of abuse, we might still be deeply hurting angry about it. We have not forgiven, as in "Let Go Of It" because we still feel immense pain inside.
Unfortunately that pain is likely to continue because we are still chained spiritually to that event and person. Even if that person is long dead, this still holds true. Satan will still occupy and abuse that part of you, which still has that chain attached. Only you can disconnect that chain.

So, do not wait till you feel better about things before you forgive. Forgive first and foremost, and start to feel better immediately. And as your thoughts might return back to the hurt, speak out loud again to the Lord, that you forgive again.
Keep speaking it as a balm to your spirit!
It is your healing, because God cannot touch that part of you which you have kept assigned and chained to some historic happening.

ChangedByHim
Nov 29th 2013, 03:31 PM
Y
Remember, Jesus repeats it three times, He says "If He repents..."

But if he does it 490 times, I bet that in your mind he didn't repent. Right?


And pardon my ignorance BP, but what exact verses in Matthew 18, in this passage, did Jesus say, "If he repents?"

Scooby_Snacks
Nov 29th 2013, 04:05 PM
Matthew 18:21 Then Peter came to Him and said, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?” 22 Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.

What's your practice on forgiveness? I try to be quick to ask forgiveness and also quick to forgive. But I have noticed in real life as well as on this board, that some Christians are neither.

Since, we can all relate to scenarios on this board, let's use that for an example. When someone crosses the line and posts something unlike Christ (which I have done), does this person admit their fault and ask forgiveness or do they dig in their position deeper? When someone does ask forgiveness, do you respond and forgive or do you ignore it and choose not to forgive?

In real life, I see the same dynamic and PRIDE is the root of this problem. God has been teaching me for some time now to admit my faults and also to walk in total forgiveness. I am trying to teach my church the same.

When I admit my faults you may think less of me, but God thinks more of me. That's all that matters to me.

If there is anyone in your life who you have not forgiven, please do so today. It's been said that unforgiveness is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to get sick. It only hurts yourself.

Matthew 6:15 But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

I am wondering too ChangedbyHim if Matthew 18:15-17 verses just before those quoted have anything to do with the subject--as far as admitting ones faults..sort of along the lines of repenting.

“If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone.
If he listens to you, you have gained your brother.
But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses.
If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church.
And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.



In these days what would a "Gentile or Tax Collector" be equated to?

It seems perhaps a person one wishes to purposely avoid or not have close relationship with? Like if one was a Jew a gentile was not someone they closely associated themselves with--- A tax collector was perhaps seen as someone who was merciless at times, and perhaps very dishonest?

So the goal to forgive others remains, but to associate with someone who is not repentant is ill advised.

In that case what do the next verses mean in connection, these verses falling just before the forgiveness 70X7 verses ?

Matthew 18:18-20
Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. 20 For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them.”

ChangedByHim
Nov 29th 2013, 04:22 PM
The passage that you quoted is what led Peter to ask Jesus about how many times to forgive.

Scooby_Snacks
Nov 29th 2013, 04:39 PM
The passage that you quoted is what led Peter to ask Jesus about how many times to forgive.

And Jesus was telling them something before Peter asked too right?
What was He telling them?

I am not wanting to go off on a tangent, but because you brought up admitting your own faults, it seemed to be pertinent to the discussion?

If someone tells me I did something offensive against them, and I won't admit it even when two three and more tell me I did, how can they have a close relationship with me anymore? I am in pride, and the removal of relationship may either further cement it, or loosen it's ties upon me depending?

When the person confronted did not admit their wrong, the relationship of the "close brother" was then to change to a "non-brother" status?

ChangedByHim
Nov 29th 2013, 05:02 PM
And Jesus was telling them something before Peter asked too right?

Yes... that's what I meant.



What was He telling them?

I am not wanting to go off on a tangent, but because you brought up admitting your own faults, it seemed to be pertinent to the discussion?

If someone tells me I did something offensive against them, and I won't admit it even when two three and more tell me I did, how can they have a close relationship with me anymore? I am in pride, and the removal of relationship may either further cement it, or loosen it's ties upon me depending?

When the person confronted did not admit their wrong, the relationship of the "close brother" was then to change to a "non-brother" status?

It all comes down to PRIDE, IMO. We so want to defend our position that we won't hear a brother. We justify ourselves in the defense of our position. A person can go to hell and have all of their doctrines right.

Scooby_Snacks
Nov 29th 2013, 06:55 PM
Yes... that's what I meant.



It all comes down to PRIDE, IMO. We so want to defend our position that we won't hear a brother. We justify ourselves in the defense of our position. A person can go to hell and have all of their doctrines right.

I am wondering if by not hearing another do you mean not hearing that they themselves have committed an offense or?

My thoughts:
If debating positions on doctrine is the main factor or a catalyst/excuse for me to sin against/commit an offense against another, then it is I who am in the wrong in committing an offense regardless if my position in doctrine is right or wrong. :idea: And perhaps, I need to do something other than debate, especially if it is in regard to non-essentials.

I have heard many times that if a person is offended, it is because they choose to be, and so, when a person commits an actual offense (wrong doing) and they say " I am sorry if you are offended" to a person who confronts the offense, suddenly it is the one who the actual offense was committed against that is wrong in "supposedly feeling offended" because they are confronting an offense.
Seems backwards to me, quite honestly. The English language often needs clarification.(like the word definitions for offense are split into several different definitions)

1.
a. The act of causing anger, resentment, displeasure, or affront.
b. The state of being offended.
2.
a. A violation or infraction of a moral or social code; a transgression or sin.
b. A transgression of law; a crime.

3. Something that outrages moral sensibilities: Genocide is an offense to all civilized humans.
4. (fns) The act of attacking or assaulting.
5. (fns) Sports
a. The means or tactics used in attempting to score.
b. A team in possession of the ball or puck, or those players whose primary duty is to attempt to score.
c. Scoring ability or potential.

Oregongrown
Nov 29th 2013, 07:33 PM
the bible says "forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us". God takes it further in saying that:

King James Bible Hebrews 8:12
For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

How many times have any of us heard "well, I do forgive them, but I won't forget". I don't know that in the flesh we are ever "able" to forget, but if that "I won't forget" is just a contradiction to saying they forgive a person, then God also says:

Matthew 6:14

(NKJV)

14 “For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.

moonglow
Nov 29th 2013, 07:51 PM
the bible says "forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us". God takes it further in saying that:

King James Bible Hebrews 8:12
For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

How many times have any of us heard "well, I do forgive them, but I won't forget". I don't know that in the flesh we are ever "able" to forget, but if that "I won't forget" is just a contradiction to saying they forgive a person, then God also says:

Matthew 6:14

(NKJV)

14 “For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.

I think especially in certain cases, a person does need to remember...especially in abusive relationships, someone taking advantage of them, stealing from them, etc. Forgetting what they have done and acting like it never happened, leaves a person open to having them being abused, stolen from, etc all over again. Lets say Joe had a really good friend, or at least he thought so until one day he caught his friend stealing one of his CD's. Over the years other small things had gone missing but Joe just thought he misplaced them. Never dreaming they had been stolen and certainly not by his friend. Joe is completely hurt, very angry and outraged over what his friend did. Eventually he forgives him...but should he forget? And be friends again with someone that clearly hasn't changed and will continue stealing from him? Should he just allow that person to keep stealing from him and him continuing to forgive and forget?

I don't see the bible telling us to be doormats and just allowing a person to continue to mistreat us. Forgiving them, yes, but to forget to the point we allow it to continue to happen? Jesus was constantly being badgered by the religious teachers of that time. He confronted them and their tricks, stood up for Himself and dealt with them each time it happened. Finally as we read in Matthew 23 He lays judgment on them. Which considering who He was, was pretty frightening!

God bless

Jake
Nov 29th 2013, 08:05 PM
I was of thinking of something similar moonglow, except we know if a person continues to steal from us, this could be our own fault because after forgiveness, we've let our guard down. Maybe exceptions of unforgiveness in cases of terrible offenses (much worse than stealing) is protection against the offender. If our guard is down, they will see us as vulnerable and attempt it again.

moonglow
Nov 29th 2013, 08:14 PM
I was of thinking of something similar moonglow, except we know if a person continues to steal from us, this could be our own fault because after forgiveness, we've let our guard down. Maybe exceptions of unforgiveness in cases of terrible offenses (much worse than stealing) is protection against the offender. If our guard is down, they will see us as vulnerable and attempt it again.

I think if "I won't forget" is said in spite that person hasn't forgiven fully like I think Oregongrown meant..at least that is how I took her post. I don't think its humanly impossible to forget what someone has done to us, with the exception of time. Meaning over time ..as years pass people's memories fade and they forget...depending on what it was. If it was something very horrible they won't ever forget. :(

And they certainly can't forget if they continue allowing that person in their life that has hurt them to stay in their life and keep doing it over and over again. That is what keeps a woman in abusive relationships from getting out. He beats her, then asks for forgiveness, she forgives...then a week or month later, he does it again. He beats her, then asks for forgiveness, she forgives...then they do it all over again. Not saying she shouldn't forgive...but she should realize it WILL continue and she must get out. In this case she shouldn't forget! (not that any woman or man beaten by a loved one would ever be able to forget as its such a horrible betrayal of trust...its wounding on many levels for sure).

God bless

Lyndie
Nov 29th 2013, 08:26 PM
I have to say that I forgive pretty easily, but I don't forget as easily, especially if it's continued unrepentant sin. I believe repentance HAS to be part of it. We are not forgiven by God unless we repent, so I have a hard time believing God wants us to keep forgiving if someone is unrepentant. Also, there is a big difference between being sorry you did it, and sorry you got caught. Being sorry you got caught isn't true repentance. I do believe in 'letting go' of an offense for our sake so we don't get bitter, but forgiveness is supposed to be for restoration, and with continued sin there is no restoration.

Jake
Nov 29th 2013, 08:36 PM
I think if "I won't forget" is said in spite that person hasn't forgiven fully like I think Oregongrown meant..at least that is how I took her post. I don't think its humanly impossible to forget what someone has done to us, with the exception of time. Meaning over time ..as years pass people's memories fade and they forget...depending on what it was. If it was something very horrible they won't ever forget. :(

And they certainly can't forget if they continue allowing that person in their life that has hurt them to stay in their life and keep doing it over and over again. That is what keeps a woman in abusive relationships from getting out. He beats her, then asks for forgiveness, she forgives...then a week or month later, he does it again. He beats her, then asks for forgiveness, she forgives...then they do it all over again. Not saying she shouldn't forgive...but she should realize it WILL continue and she must get out. In this case she shouldn't forget! (not that any woman or man beaten by a loved one would ever be able to forget as its such a horrible betrayal of trust...its wounding on many levels for sure).

God bless
I understand what you're saying about a person not being able to forget and maybe over time the details of the offense will diminish.

I don't know how wise it is for the abused wife to be so quick to forgive her husband for continuing to beat her, how can she? The unforgiveness can give her something that forgiveness doesn't and that would be empowerment and motivation to change her situation. If a person beat you and you know they are capable of doing it again and very well might do it again, priorities would include preparation to protect yourself from future attack, not forgiveness. That's how I see it anyway.

It seems like the OP maybe wanted to discuss smaller offenses, like being disrespectful to people on the forum or in more personal relationships, those I can easily forgive and forget.

awestruckchild
Nov 29th 2013, 09:15 PM
I think we have something wrong here.
To say to someone who has sinned against us or wronged us that we forgive them but want no relationship with them so that we don't set ourselves up to be abused by them again isn't true forgiveness, is it...?
We have the example of true sacrifice and forgiveness.
It doesn't look or sound like our reasoned out form of forgiveness here.
The reason for true forgiveness is so that relationship can be restored - not for any of the reasons we have given here.
I don't know....I just think we've got something wrong....
If you said you forgave your brother but then you protected yourself from the chance of him abusing you again by not having dealings with him, you would not be forgiving him 70x7 times because you would not leave yourself in a situation when he would ever NEED your forgiveness again...
If relationship is not restored and you do not take the risk of being hurt again, have you really forgiven?
I think it is far wiser to say, Lord, I can't, than to think we fool Him by saying we do when we don't.

Jake
Nov 29th 2013, 09:19 PM
I think we have something wrong here.
To say to someone who has sinned against us or wronged us that we forgive them but want no relationship with them so that we don't set ourselves up to be abused by them again isn't true forgiveness, is it...?
We have the example of true sacrifice and forgiveness.
It doesn't look or sound like our reasoned out form of forgiveness here.
The reason for true forgiveness is so that relationship can be restored - not for any of the reasons we have given here.
I don't know....I just think we've got something wrong....
If you said you forgave your brother but then you protected yourself from the chance of him abusing you again by not having dealings with him, you would not be forgiving him 70x7 times because you would not leave yourself in a situation when he would ever NEED your forgiveness again...
If relationship is not restored and you do not take the risk of being hurt again, have you really forgiven?
I think it is far wiser to say, Lord, I can't, than to think we fool Him by saying we do when we don't.

No, you haven't forgiven - that is the protection part.

If someone wants to kill you, you forgive them, but they still want to kill you, how are you going to have a relationship with that person? Would you seriously put yourself, on purpose, in harms way? Remember, that person may not be a believer, then what?

I don't think forgiveness is always about a restored relationship, what about the people who have died? Forgiveness is to release the debt they might owe you, to let it go. The other person doesn't even need to know you forgave them, God knows and that is enough in many cases.

grams
Nov 29th 2013, 09:23 PM
I cant and wont forgive the Catholic Church !

I keep wondering about my parents and my brother and sister !

See they all died before I became saved. And I did not get saved till our children got saved and spoke to us !

I think if they were saved the would have talked to me ?
But never did.

Yes I know it is different now at the church. But what about all those souls that are now gone ?

eternity ! is so hard for me think of they may all be in hell ? And its to late to pray for them ........

Works............... cry................... no bible............. cry............ no hope.................. ?

awestruckchild
Nov 29th 2013, 09:49 PM
No, you haven't forgiven - that is the protection part.

If someone wants to kill you, you forgive them, but they still want to kill you, how are you going to have a relationship with that person? Would you seriously put yourself, on purpose, in harms way? Remember, that person may not be a believer, then what?

I don't think forgiveness is always about a restored relationship, what about the people who have died? Forgiveness is to release the debt they might owe you, to let it go. The other person doesn't even need to know you forgave them, God knows and that is enough in many cases.

Hi Jake! I haven't seen you in forever! Hope your TG day was good!
Your second paragraph has just cattle prodded me!
Read the first sentence of your 2nd paragraph and replace "you" with "Jesus".
I think it is the forgiveness that is the key to it all....

moonglow
Nov 29th 2013, 10:12 PM
I cant and wont forgive the Catholic Church !

I keep wondering about my parents and my brother and sister !

See they all died before I became saved. And I did not get saved till our children got saved and spoke to us !

I think if they were saved the would have talked to me ?
But never did.

Yes I know it is different now at the church. But what about all those souls that are now gone ?

eternity ! is so hard for me think of they may all be in hell ? And its to late to pray for them ........

Works............... cry................... no bible............. cry............ no hope.................. ?

I am SO sorry grams..I really am. I do believe there are true believers in the Catholic church...you know what your relatives believed and didn't believe. I don't think Jesus taught to forgive false teaching...or an institution. He was talking about people to people only.

I would like to reply to some of the other comments on here and look at more scripture on forgiveness. Some are about forgiveness that our God gives us and some about those in the church body. A brother or sister in Christ:

Scooby_Snacks posted a very important passage here:
Matthew 18:15-17

“If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone.
If he listens to you, you have gained your brother.
But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses.
If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church.
And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.

Obviously restoration doesn't happen here if they haven't repented. I don't think that means a person shouldn't still forgive them, but no relationship can continue.

I have to run some errands though...more later.

God bless

awestruckchild
Nov 29th 2013, 10:28 PM
Very good MG!
It's as you say - obviously, restoration can't happen without repentance.
That's the Gospel.
But restoration could not even begin without the forgiveness first.
This is very hard to wrap my mind around....
I look forward to hearing what you find.
I can see we have some of it wrong, but I can't work it all out in my head.

Francis Drake
Nov 29th 2013, 11:27 PM
I cant and wont forgive the Catholic Church !

I keep wondering about my parents and my brother and sister !

See they all died before I became saved. And I did not get saved till our children got saved and spoke to us !

I think if they were saved the would have talked to me ?
But never did.

Yes I know it is different now at the church. But what about all those souls that are now gone ?

eternity ! is so hard for me think of they may all be in hell ? And its to late to pray for them ........

Works............... cry................... no bible............. cry............ no hope.................. ?

I am sorry about your family grams, but if you refuse to forgive the Catholic Church, then you will certainly remain spiritually bound to it. Read my earlier post (No6) to understand this.

Forgiveness means to let it go, to release it. It does not mean to feel happy about it.

By unforgiveness, we can remain bound to people, or organisations, or events, etc. anything that has damaged us in the past.

Lyndie
Nov 29th 2013, 11:35 PM
I think we have something wrong here.
To say to someone who has sinned against us or wronged us that we forgive them but want no relationship with them so that we don't set ourselves up to be abused by them again isn't true forgiveness, is it...?
We have the example of true sacrifice and forgiveness.
It doesn't look or sound like our reasoned out form of forgiveness here.
The reason for true forgiveness is so that relationship can be restored - not for any of the reasons we have given here.
I don't know....I just think we've got something wrong....
If you said you forgave your brother but then you protected yourself from the chance of him abusing you again by not having dealings with him, you would not be forgiving him 70x7 times because you would not leave yourself in a situation when he would ever NEED your forgiveness again...
If relationship is not restored and you do not take the risk of being hurt again, have you really forgiven?
I think it is far wiser to say, Lord, I can't, than to think we fool Him by saying we do when we don't.

Would you let someone who molested your kids be alone with them if they repented?

Jake
Nov 29th 2013, 11:50 PM
By unforgiveness, we can remain bound to people, or organisations, or events, etc. anything that has damaged us in the past.

Or it could be a person staying alert and on guard, for protection, especially if the person is not repentant. Otherwise, forgiveness, at the wrong time, could leave a person weak and vulnerable in certain circumstances.

ChangedByHim
Nov 30th 2013, 12:00 AM
Or it could be a person staying alert and on guard, for protection, especially if the person is not repentant. Otherwise, forgiveness, at the wrong time, could leave a person weak and vulnerable in certain circumstances.
Forgiveness is not reconciliation. The latter requires repentance; the former does not. How could carrying a grudge be protection from a Biblical world view?

Further, forgiveness is not a feeling. It is a choice.



"Father forgive them for they do not know what they do."
~ Jesus Christ

Theostides Praxese
Nov 30th 2013, 12:04 AM
There is a single thread throughout the Bible, it starts in Genesis, and runs through to Revelations. That thread is forgiveness. The entirety of Bible, God forgives us over and over again, that we might find salvation. Repentance from our sins, (forgiving of ourselves,) and not holding vengeance, (forgiving others.) "If your enemies are hungry, feed them. If they are thirsty, give them something to drink, and they will be ashamed of what they have done to you." Romans 12:20 "Judge not, that you not be judged." Mathew 7:1 What does this mean? it means judge none, including yourself for sinfulness. Instead, REPENT from sinfulness. Notice when you sin, ask God for His mercy, and don't do that again. Forgiveness leads to repentance. Judgment, including of the self, leads to damnation. God, alone, is worthy of judgment. Forgive yourself, repent, and move forward. Forgive others, pray that they repent too, and move forward.

Jake
Nov 30th 2013, 12:06 AM
Forgiveness is not reconciliation. The latter requires repentance; the former does not. How could carrying a grudge be protection from a Biblical world view?

Further, forgiveness is not a feeling. It is a choice.



"Father forgive them for they do not know what they do."
~ Jesus Christ

Eventually, we have to forgive all, but I don't think it's wise to forgive someone when they are still a threat. When a person forgives, they can be weak and vulnerable, to someone who wishes them ill will. I don't see how that is a good thing.

Seriously, am I missing something here? How can a person forgive someone if the offense continues to happen again and again? I don't think it's possible, especially if the person is not sorry.

Jake
Nov 30th 2013, 12:28 AM
Hi Jake! I haven't seen you in forever! Hope your TG day was good!
Your second paragraph has just cattle prodded me!
Read the first sentence of your 2nd paragraph and replace "you" with "Jesus".
I think it is the forgiveness that is the key to it all....

Sorry awe, I didn't see this before. It's good to see you, too, it has been awhile.

I'm sure Jesus had a constant flow of forgiveness permeating from His every being, He was perfect, we are not. He did protect Himself from those who tried stoning and killing Him, by leaving the vicinity. He didn't stick around to see what was going to happen - or He knew what would happen.

I think it's easy to say that we would forgive every single offense, no matter how terrifying and horrible, but until horrible, terrifying acts happen, does anyone know how they would really react? Can you say for certain if someone tried snuffing out your life, that you would immediately forgive them?

Francis Drake
Nov 30th 2013, 12:35 AM
Or it could be a person staying alert and on guard, for protection, especially if the person is not repentant. Otherwise, forgiveness, at the wrong time, could leave a person weak and vulnerable in certain circumstances.

Jake, you are taking what I said completely out of context.
Of course I agree with what you say here, but what has that to do with forgiveness? You don't have to remain unforgiving to stay alert and on guard do you?

Forgiveness is all about you, not the other person. He might not give a damn about being forgiven, but unforgiveness is seriously damaging to you! Its unforgiveness that will leave you weak and vulnerable because unforgiveness leaves you wide open to be abused by Satan.

To forgive means to let go, that's all. If we refuse to let go, then as I said we are spiritually bound back to that event or person. Do you understand this?

If we want to be free to walk with Jesus, then we have to let go of the chains that hold us to past events. That's what forgiveness means. The Greek word just means to let go or release, that's all.

awestruckchild
Nov 30th 2013, 12:37 AM
Would you let someone who molested your kids be alone with them if they repented?

If I had children, no, I would not, of course.
But then, that is protecting a child.
But if the person repented, and I could forgive them with Gods' help, that would be good.
But if I could not forgive them, as I said in my post, it would be far wiser to tell Him the truth of my unforgiveness and to plainly admit to Him, Lord, I can't, than to say I had forgiven when I hadn't.
He desires truth in the inward parts.
The truth is that I have been forgiven of worse and of more than your theoretical molester and I would hope if your theoretical situation became a reality in my life, that I would not forget this, because when I forget how much mercy and forgiveness I have received, I tend to refuse forgiveness to others and begin to see them as unforgiveable.
But if I had to guess, I think it would be one of the instances where I would have to tell Him, Lord, I can't.

Jake
Nov 30th 2013, 12:55 AM
Jake, you are taking what I said completely out of context. I didn't know I took anything out of context, sorry, didn't mean to.



Of course I agree with what you say here, but what has that to do with forgiveness? You don't have to remain unforgiving to stay alert and on guard do you?

Forgiveness is all about you, not the other person. He might not give a damn about being forgiven, but unforgiveness is seriously damaging to you! Its unforgiveness that will leave you weak and vulnerable because unforgiveness leaves you wide open to be abused by Satan. It seems once you forgive, then it's all behind you, you let your guard down, start trusting again and then it happens again. Otherwise, you're just on alert and guarding against something that will probably happen again.


To forgive means to let go, that's all. If we refuse to let go, then as I said we are spiritually bound back to that event or person. Do you understand this?

If we want to be free to walk with Jesus, then we have to let go of the chains that hold us to past events. That's what forgiveness means. The Greek word just means to let go or release, that's all. If there is a known threat lingering, it's not being completely free anyway, so you can't really 'let it go' if it's still there.

Scooby_Snacks
Nov 30th 2013, 12:59 AM
Honesty with God is probably the most important thing.
Dealing with my own feelings when other people could care less how I feel evidenced because they are unloving or incapable of being loving themselves--
It may be because they do not feel loved at all. It could be because they are sociopaths. :P


There is something to be said of being through Christ able to turn the other cheek immediately forgiving a person who mistreats you.
This is by the power of the Spirit--
As far as believers go, to be in unity and close trusting relationship, the actual act of confrontation and then the other parties admittance of wrong and Godly sorrow over sin is necessary for character growth.
(If my actions hurt someone I want to feel sorry for hurting them, not angry for being called out on it. And if my actions hurt someone and I don't know, and no one cares enough to tell me, then how am I going to grow?)

ChangedByHim
Nov 30th 2013, 01:02 AM
Eventually, we have to forgive all, but I don't think it's wise to forgive someone when they are still a threat. When a person forgives, they can be weak and vulnerable, to someone who wishes them ill will. I don't see how that is a good thing.

Seriously, am I missing something here? How can a person forgive someone if the offense continues to happen again and again? I don't think it's possible, especially if the person is not sorry.

To forgive does not mean you lose wisdom and act recklessly. You wouldn't do that if the person had never harmed you the first time. Again, reconciliation goes beyond forgiveness. When Jesus prayed for the Father to forgive those who crucified Him, did that mean He knew they wouldn't do it again? Did it mean they were reconciled with the Father?

You need to get a better Biblical definition of forgiveness than the one you are operating with. God forgives but he also gives out discipline in many cases, after forgiveness (e.g., the sword never departing from David's house). Under your definition of forgiveness, God would not be allowed to discipline.

awestruckchild
Nov 30th 2013, 01:17 AM
Sorry awe, I didn't see this before. It's good to see you, too, it has been awhile.

I'm sure Jesus had a constant flow of forgiveness permeating from His every being, He was perfect, we are not. He did protect Himself from those who tried stoning and killing Him, by leaving the vicinity. He didn't stick around to see what was going to happen - or He knew what would happen.

I think it's easy to say that we would forgive every single offense, no matter how terrifying and horrible, but until horrible, terrifying acts happen, does anyone know how they would really react? Can you say for certain if someone tried snuffing out your life, that you would immediately forgive them?

You are right Jake.
It is easy to talk big about what we would do, just like the disciples did who vowed they would go and die with Jesus.
And you are right that He was perfect and we are not.
This is why being extremely truthful with Him is so important.
When we plainly tell Him the truth of what is inside our hearts and that we CAN'T forgive someone, we are admitting our weakness and when we are weak, He is strong.
It seems impossible to us that He can perfect us and make us more and more like Himself, but if we keep being honest, He will keep working towards finishing the good work He began in us.
You and grams have been brutally honest. That is good. He desires truth in the inward parts.
For you ( and me, and grams), it seems impossible, and it IS impossible in our own strength.
With men, it is impossible. But with God, ALL things are possible.

Jake
Nov 30th 2013, 03:14 AM
To forgive does not mean you lose wisdom and act recklessly. You wouldn't do that if the person had never harmed you the first time. Again, reconciliation goes beyond forgiveness. When Jesus prayed for the Father to forgive those who crucified Him, did that mean He knew they wouldn't do it again? Did it mean they were reconciled with the Father?

You need to get a better Biblical definition of forgiveness than the one you are operating with. God forgives but he also gives out discipline in many cases, after forgiveness (e.g., the sword never departing from David's house). Under your definition of forgiveness, God would not be allowed to discipline.
I don't think we lose wisdom, I just think it's wise not to be quick to forgive in some offenses, it's like the Bible says, 'be wise as serpents'.

Why would not forgiving a person prevent God from disciplining the offender?

moonglow
Nov 30th 2013, 03:17 AM
Walking in forgiveness is absolutely essential if we really are serious about walking with the Lord.

I always try to forgive quickly and admit my error quickly, it pays dividends.

I believe one of the problems we have with forgiveness as believers is a completely false comprehension of what the word means in scripture.

In general English usage, the word forgive or forgiveness has emotional connotations. ie. If someone offends us, we may take weeks, even years, even a life time, to forgive either the person, or even the event which caused the pain. The speed of our decision is generally determined by the extent of the pain we still feel. Forgiveness has to wait until the time we are sufficiently ok about our pain.

In English, too much feeling is associated to the word, which is not there in the original Greek of the scripture.

The most used Greek word for forgiveness is "Aphiemi", or derivatives of it. It will come as a shock to most people to see what the word actually means.

Aphiemi is all these and more. -
Send away,
release,
let go,
permit.
divorce,
etc.
There is no hint of feelings attached to any of it.

The range of verses where aphiemi is used, but not translated as forgive will help understanding of the word.

Paul on divorce.
1Cor7v12But to the rest I say, not the Lord, that if any brother has a wife who is an unbeliever, and she consents to live with him, he must not divorce her. (or let him not forgive her?)

The woman at the well.
John4v28. So the woman left (forgave) her waterpot, and went into the city and said to the men,

The crucifixion.
Matt27v50. And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up (forgave) His spirit.


Scripture is full of samples like these. I did a concordance search many years ago, and it opened my eyes.
Aphiemi would in my view be far better translated as, "let go", "forego", or "release". The word forgive is too tied up with our emotions.

I always forgive people because of "enlightened self interest". I don't forgive people or events because I wish to show any superior spirituality. I forgive for my own sake rather than theirs! I seriously value the amazing freedom that walking a life of constant forgiveness can give me.
I think it was Joyce Meyer who rightly said, "Unforgiveness, is like drinking poison, and waiting for the other person to die!" An amazing truth to deeply consider.

Unforgiveness is like a rope which binds a person to someone else, or to some past event. It is as if we are still waiting for recompense, which most likely will never come.
If we have lost a childhood because of abuse, we might still be deeply hurting angry about it. We have not forgiven, as in "Let Go Of It" because we still feel immense pain inside.
Unfortunately that pain is likely to continue because we are still chained spiritually to that event and person. Even if that person is long dead, this still holds true. Satan will still occupy and abuse that part of you, which still has that chain attached. Only you can disconnect that chain.

So, do not wait till you feel better about things before you forgive. Forgive first and foremost, and start to feel better immediately. And as your thoughts might return back to the hurt, speak out loud again to the Lord, that you forgive again.
Keep speaking it as a balm to your spirit!
It is your healing, because God cannot touch that part of you which you have kept assigned and chained to some historic happening.

Somehow I missed this post until you mentioned it again so I went back and looked. This part:


The most used Greek word for forgiveness is "Aphiemi", or derivatives of it. It will come as a shock to most people to see what the word actually means.

Aphiemi is all these and more. -
Send away,
release,
let go,
permit.
divorce,
etc.
There is no hint of feelings attached to any of it.

The range of verses where aphiemi is used, but not translated as forgive will help understanding of the word.

Paul on divorce.
1Cor7v12But to the rest I say, not the Lord, that if any brother has a wife who is an unbeliever, and she consents to live with him, he must not divorce her. (or let him not forgive her?)

The woman at the well.
John4v28. So the woman left (forgave) her waterpot, and went into the city and said to the men,

The crucifixion.
Matt27v50. And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up (forgave) His spirit.


Scripture is full of samples like these. I did a concordance search many years ago, and it opened my eyes.
Aphiemi would in my view be far better translated as, "let go", "forego", or "release". The word forgive is too tied up with our emotions.

That isn't what I am coming up with on a Lexicon. Like the word, love, in the bible, depending on which one is used, it has different meanings.

This is what the Strong's (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/gwview.cgi?n=5483) says: charízomai

Thayer's Definition

1. to do something pleasant or agreeable (to one), to do a favour to, gratify
a. to show one's self gracious, kind, benevolent
b. to grant forgiveness, to pardon
c. to give graciously, give freely, bestow
1. to forgive
2.graciously to restore one to another
3. to preserve for one a person in peril

Like our English words, not every definition fits.

A scripture example of this word being used in the definition of probably b and c:
New American Standard

Ephesians 4:32
Be kind to one another tender-hearted, forgiving each other just as God in Christ also has forgiven you.


There was another word that meant the definition you gave of course. Its not the word you are using doesn't mean that in every instance of forgetting. The original language is tricky that way. I don't agree it shouldn't be emotional either actually. God forgives us our sins, which are a direct rebellion against Him...He is able to still love us inspite of that! And part of that loving us is forgiving and forgetting our sins. Its Divine forgiveness of sins, something we cannot do.

Mark 2:1-12

New International Version (NIV)
Jesus Forgives and Heals a Paralyzed Man

2 A few days later, when Jesus again entered Capernaum, the people heard that he had come home. 2 They gathered in such large numbers that there was no room left, not even outside the door, and he preached the word to them. 3 Some men came, bringing to him a paralyzed man, carried by four of them. 4 Since they could not get him to Jesus because of the crowd, they made an opening in the roof above Jesus by digging through it and then lowered the mat the man was lying on. 5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralyzed man, “Son, your sins are forgiven.”

6 Now some teachers of the law were sitting there, thinking to themselves, 7 “Why does this fellow talk like that? He’s blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?”

8 Immediately Jesus knew in his spirit that this was what they were thinking in their hearts, and he said to them, “Why are you thinking these things? 9 Which is easier: to say to this paralyzed man, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up, take your mat and walk’? 10 But I want you to know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins.” So he said to the man, 11 “I tell you, get up, take your mat and go home.” 12 He got up, took his mat and walked out in full view of them all. This amazed everyone and they praised God, saying, “We have never seen anything like this!”

We can't forgive all the sins of one person let alone every human being that has ever lived or will live but can only forgive those who owe us a debt, trespassed against us, or sinned against us. Though sometimes people have to forgive someone that hurt someone they love. For instance I have heard of parents forgiving a person that murdered their adult child...they were of course sinned against too. It takes some real moving of the Holy Spirit, I think for that to happen.

God bless

awestruckchild
Nov 30th 2013, 03:36 AM
This was a big help for us MG. Thank you!

moonglow
Nov 30th 2013, 04:17 AM
People are talking about a possible repented child molester....that is a really tough one! I think what someone said..I think Changedbyhim, about being as wise as a serpent and gentle as a dove would apply here for sure. I will tell you a true story that happened in another city not far from here. A lady with children, was dating a convicted child molester...he had served his time, and after so many years they are taking off the sex offenders list so they can be around children again. She believed him that he had changed (I realize that even in the secular world people can repent of their crimes and change). When the story first broke that he was suspected of molesting one of her daughters she did not believe the daughter. Said she trusted this man but never left him alone with the kids. (first that didn't make sense, if you truly trust someone why would you be on guard?) Other things she said in the interview which aired on the news didn't make sense. Her daughter had alot of behavior problems...lied alot...the mom said, which was another reason she didn't believe her. :hmm: It was the grandmother this girl told and the grandmother took her to the police station.

Within a day or two they had the evidence they needed, he was arrested. :( He had not changed and the mom finally admitted she did leave the kids alone with him. While in this case the mother didn't have anything to forgive the man for to start with...she still put her children in a dangerous situation. She believed the man had repented of his sins. (crimes). And took a terrible chance that the daughter paid for. :cry: I can't remember for sure but I think the mother was arrested too. More and more they are arrested the mother for allowing a know abuse to go on, or putting their children in danger knowing a person is a risk...whether its this, or they drink too much, or use drugs or whatever. She leaves her children alone with them. :( Frankly I am glad they are cracking down on the mom's that put their children in these dangerous situations to start with. Makes me furious that this keeps coming up on the news over and over again...its like WHY can't these mothers learn??? :B

And so many, like this lady, refused to believe her daughter over this man. :( This happens far too many times! And its usually the woman wanting to hang onto the man...no matter what. Even if he really isn't even interested in her! Just her kids! Its sickening. How a person untangles this mess, I don't know. :hmm:

As Christians we tend to give others the benefit of the doubt and are usually quick to forgive. I still do not see scripture saying that means to BELIEVE the person has truly repented. And allow ourselves or our kids, to be harmed because we are just following what the bible says. :hmm: Don't do that. I learned the hard way, that forgiving doesn't equal trusting that person again...especially if they keep doing it over and over again. Its better to remove ourselves from that person who is sinning by hurting us in some way, having time to heal, and forgiving.

moonglow
Nov 30th 2013, 04:24 AM
This was a big help for us MG. Thank you!

Keep reading...:lol: I am tired! I cut out part of my last post to put on here so that one wouldn't be so long..

The different passages on forgiving also are for different situation. Like the verse about confronting brother that sinned against us...a brother in the bible usually means a brother in Christ...(or sister in Christ) and in this context likely is about someone attending the same place of worship with you..its not about a nonbeliever:

Matthew 18
Dealing with a Sinning Brother

15 “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ 17 And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.

David Guzik's Commentary on the Bible (http://www.studylight.org/com/guz/view.cgi?bk=39&ch=18)

2. (Matthew 18:16-18) If one among the church is adamantly unrepentant, they are to be removed from fellowship.

“But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector. Assuredly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

a. If he will not hear, take with you one or two more: The circle of people in the situation only becomes wider as the offending party refuses to listen. If the stubborn, unrepentant attitude remains they are to be refused fellowship (let him be to you like a heathen).

i. This sense of being refused full standing and participation in the body of Christ is what Paul meant when he said to deliver such a one to Satan (1 Corinthians 5:1-8). There is a sense in which the unrepentant one is chastened by their being placed outside of the “protection” of fellowship.

b. Like a heathen and a tax collector: Even so, the unrepentant one must be treated just as we should treat a heathen and a tax collector - with great love, with the goal of bringing about a full repentance and reconciliation.

c. Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven: If this process is done humbly and according to the Word, this is quite binding in the eyes of God, even if the unrepentant ones just go to another church.

3. (Matthew 18:19-20) The power and blessing in fellowship that is denied the unrepentant.

This was asked about:

Matthew 5:39
But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.

I think this commentary explains it well:

David Guzik's Commentary on the Bible (http://www.studylight.org/com/guz/view.cgi?bk=39&ch=5)
b. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also: Here, Jesus presents the fullness of the eye for an eye law, and how its idea of limiting revenge extends into the principle of accepting certain evil against one’s self.

i. When a person insults us (slaps you on the right cheek) we want to give them back what they gave to us, plus more. Jesus says we should patiently bear such insults and offences, and not resist an evil person who insults us this way. Instead, we trust God to defend us.

ii. It is wrong to think Jesus means evil should never be resisted. Jesus demonstrated with His life that evil should and must be resisted, such as when He turned tables in the temple.

iii. It is wrong to think that Jesus means a physical attack cannot be resisted or defended against. When Jesus speaks of a slap on your right cheek, that was culturally understood as a deep insult, not a physical attack. Jesus does not mean that if someone hits across the right side of our head with a baseball bat, we should allow them to then hit the left side.

iv. It is also wrong to think Jesus means that there is no place for punishment or retribution in society. Jesus here speaks to personal relationships, and not to the proper functions of government in restraining evil (Romans 13:1-4). I must turn my cheek when I am personally insulted, but the government has a responsibility to restrain the evil man from physical assault.

v. Jesus also displayed the principle behind the law in His trials before the Sanhedrin and Pilate. He showed that we are to let God defend our case, not ourselves.

While he explains things well on certain verses, I don't agree with him on everything. Just so you know.

At any rate so this means a woman or man, or child that is being physically beaten, pushed, shoved, punched, cut, whatever by a 'friend' or spouse or whatever, (or even a complete stranger), it doesn't mean they have to just take it and forgive that person after each blow...:rolleyes: Also if this was literal no Christians would own guns for self defense. ;)

Did any of you ever watch the Princess Bride? One of the things they do when they want to duel someone is slapped them with a glove. The right hand was always used, not the left. Even if they were left handed. Its a culture thing.

awestruckchild
Nov 30th 2013, 04:38 PM
I don't agree with him on all of it either.
One thing struck me as a little odd in what you said.
You said if the verse was literal, then no christians would own guns.
It seems backwards to determine what a verse means because of what men do.
What if the men are not obeying in something He told them?
I can't wrap my mind around not beginning with a literal understanding.
If we are faithful and listen to and do what He says in earthly things, we will be given more understanding for our inside, and our spirit and in more depth.
But if we can't accept and obey when He tells us about earthly things, like money, or being slapped by someone, can we hope to understand in a deeper way or in spirit?
I struggle with this all.
I see a conforming to the world and what it says we are allowed and then an attempt to make the verses fit with that rather than an understanding that the Kingdom does not work or fit in with the world.
Having said that, I find that I often will not defend myself and will rely on Him to defend me, but that I WILL defend others. If someone offends me, I am getting better about just letting it go - maybe because I don't think they owe me any respect because I know what I am and can't pretend I am owed respect - but I am not able to keep as silent when it is someone else being offended. In my eyes, they do deserve respect and to be treated kindly and without harshness. I don't know why that is.

I also have thought about what I might do if I found out I had cancer. I think I would refuse treatment/chemotherapy. But when I see someone make that decision for someone else other than themself, such as their child, I do not think it is right. I think you can only make decisions for yourself but not for others. My problem is that I sometimes anger people for my own decisions. They don't anger me for theirs, but I tend to anger them for mine or for talking about what I perceive Jesus to have meant for ME. They get pretty angry and start bringing up theoretical questions about if I would defend someone else and my answer is always yes.
I don't know if I am a hypocrite that I would not defend myself but would defend someone else.
I struggle with it all.
Especially when they get angry at my choices or my understanding of what Jesus tells me for myself. I can't quite figure out what exactly it is that gets them so angry with me....

Oregongrown
Nov 30th 2013, 04:58 PM
I didn't read all replies so someone may have already hit on this. I believe forgiveness is more for the forgiver. Maybe I shouldn't say "more for" but it is important in my experience. If I do not forgive someone, and I don't care if they ask or repent or not, my unforgiveness festers. It gives me pain, and no rest, no peace. When Jesus was on the cross, and asked the Father to "forgive them for they know not what they do" many of those people were "still" laughing, spitting, and scoffing (hardly repenting or asking Jesus to forgive them).

So Christ being the only One I desire to follow, tells me to do the same. Does anyone know of a verse that tells us that holding a grudge (unforgiveness of another) actually keeps them in the bondage of their sin? I may have read that elsewhere, so I am not saying there is such a verse. But those better read may know of one. God bless, denise, ysic

moonglow
Nov 30th 2013, 08:29 PM
[QUOTE=awestruckchild;3077922]I don't agree with him on all of it either.
One thing struck me as a little odd in what you said.
You said if the verse was literal, then no christians would own guns.
It seems backwards to determine what a verse means because of what men do.

Understanding the culture at that time in history is extremely important to fully understanding what Jesus was saying. He used many 'expressions' that those people in that time in history understood. I am a very literal person also, but no Christian believes its literal to cut off our hand if we use it to sin, or to pluck out and eye, if its used in sin. Jesus says that though!

Matthew 5
27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.’ 28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to desire her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away! It is better to lose one of your members than to have your whole body thrown into hell. 30 If your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away! It is better to lose one of your members than to have your whole body go into hell.

Matthew five is the sermon on the mount. He is correcting many things that the religious leaders taught wrongly from the OT, or takes them to a new level..like what I just quoted about adultery. In God's eyes, its not just the act that is adultery, but even looking at a person with lust in our hearts is also considered adultery. That is a pretty high standard there! In this day and age, even more so with porn so rampant on the internet. The point of not resisting the evil person is to not take revenge. If God thought we should not defend ourselves in any given situation why would He write this:

Romans 13:1-4

New King James Version (NKJV)
Submit to Government

13 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. 4 For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.

Lets say someone beats you up and you call the police...which you should, not just let them get away with it to go on to beat someone else up. They get arrested and go to trial. The government, the authorities, appointed by God will see that the person either serves time or is fined, or both. In other words, yes God is the avenger of the person that practices evil. Not us. There are groups of Christians like the Mennonites that do take that verse literally to the point they will do nothing to defend themselves or their families from an attacker. They also won't join the miltary. They believe even defending their country is wrong, allowing God to be our defense. Yet in the OT God leads armies of men to fight against their enemies. God alone didn't fight those human armies (in most cases).


What if the men are not obeying in something He told them?

I don't know what you mean..?


I can't wrap my mind around not beginning with a literal understanding.
Well like I said, no one take it literally in that same chapter that they should cut off body parts to avoid sinning. Jesus uses expression for that time in history that they understood...like we use expressions to explain things. If I say its raining cats and dogs out, you wouldn't take that literally...you would realize I meant its raining really hard out.


If we are faithful and listen to and do what He says in earthly things, we will be given more understanding for our inside, and our spirit and in more depth.
But if we can't accept and obey when He tells us about earthly things, like money, or being slapped by someone, can we hope to understand in a deeper way or in spirit?
I struggle with this all.
I see a conforming to the world and what it says we are allowed and then an attempt to make the verses fit with that rather than an understanding that the Kingdom does not work or fit in with the world.

You are right! Because so many try to read and apply everything to 'our time' it won't always make sense. Which is why its important to understand the culture back then. Jesus talks about old wine skins verses new wine skins...how do we apply that to our time and our culture when no one carries wine skins and no one has ever seen one? People in third world countries have a better grasp on what He was saying many times then we do because they still live like they did in Jesus' time. Which is why we struggle with some of these things.

I think some others on here would be able to explain better on the self dense and the striking on the cheek then I can. Slug, who has been in the military and has more knowledge in this area then I do, would be a good person to explain this all to you...where do we draw the line between allowing a slap on the cheek (who even does that anymore?) to them just beating us...do we allow that with no defense? or not.


Having said that, I find that I often will not defend myself and will rely on Him to defend me, but that I WILL defend others. If someone offends me, I am getting better about just letting it go - maybe because I don't think they owe me any respect because I know what I am and can't pretend I am owed respect - but I am not able to keep as silent when it is someone else being offended. In my eyes, they do deserve respect and to be treated kindly and without harshness. I don't know why that is.

I think its actually easier to defend others then it is ourselves.


I also have thought about what I might do if I found out I had cancer. I think I would refuse treatment/chemotherapy. But when I see someone make that decision for someone else other than themself, such as their child, I do not think it is right. I think you can only make decisions for yourself but not for others.

A child is not able to make that decision though. Legally, a parent has too and those that have refused cancer treatment for their child, usually get charged with child endangerment. Especially if the child could live if treated. Legally a child cannot make that choice for themselves.



My problem is that I sometimes anger people for my own decisions. They don't anger me for theirs, but I tend to anger them for mine or for talking about what I perceive Jesus to have meant for ME. They get pretty angry and start bringing up theoretical questions about if I would defend someone else and my answer is always yes.
I don't know if I am a hypocrite that I would not defend myself but would defend someone else.
I struggle with it all.
Especially when they get angry at my choices or my understanding of what Jesus tells me for myself. I can't quite figure out what exactly it is that gets them so angry with me....

I have experienced that myself too. It also puzzles me. Maybe them hearing your ideas, makes them realize they might be wrong in theirs? I don't know...

God bless

moonglow
Nov 30th 2013, 08:54 PM
I didn't read all replies so someone may have already hit on this. I believe forgiveness is more for the forgiver. Maybe I shouldn't say "more for" but it is important in my experience. If I do not forgive someone, and I don't care if they ask or repent or not, my unforgiveness festers. It gives me pain, and no rest, no peace. When Jesus was on the cross, and asked the Father to "forgive them for they know not what they do" many of those people were "still" laughing, spitting, and scoffing (hardly repenting or asking Jesus to forgive them).

So Christ being the only One I desire to follow, tells me to do the same. Does anyone know of a verse that tells us that holding a grudge (unforgiveness of another) actually keeps them in the bondage of their sin? I may have read that elsewhere, so I am not saying there is such a verse. But those better read may know of one. God bless, denise, ysic

You are right in the forgiveness is really for us, other wise we may stay bitter and even hold hatred in our hearts towards a person. I have never heard of unforgiviness causing a person to be held in bondage, let alone held in bondage to the sin the other person did. Maybe I wasn't understanding that right either. If a person is unforgiving, I suppose it could cause them to dwell on the offense the other person did, or dwell on them...and become all consuming with that person.

Don't laugh but sometimes I watch Dr. Phil. I watch because of the situations presented on the show. There was a husband and wife on their one time where the husband was convinced his wife had an affair while he had taken their son on a camping trip. She hadn't, but he was literally consumed with the idea! It was like yeast that has spread through every part of their relationship. He was constantly checking her emails, her text messages, following her, etc, looking for evidence of this affair. He hounded her almost constantly to confess. They were arguing all the time about this affecting their son. If I was her I think I would be tempted to 'confess' just to shut him up...:rolleyes: Now in this case she really hadn't done anything wrong, there was nothing for him to forgive ...he was just convinced there was. He would have been a great example of someone consumed by unforgiviness and how it can effect someone. He had other deeper problems going on as you can image. :cool:

Anyway I found this:

Unforgiveness also robs us of the full life God intends for us. Rather than promote justice, our unforgiveness festers into bitterness. Hebrews 12:14-15 warns, “Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord. See to it that no one falls short of the grace of God and that no bitter root rises up to cause trouble and defile many.” Similarly, 2 Corinthians 2:5-11 warns that unforgiveness can be an opening for Satan to derail us.

We also know that those who have sinned against us – whom we may not want to forgive – are held accountable by God (see Romans 12:19 and Hebrews 10:30). It is important to recognize that to forgive is not to downplay a wrongdoing or necessarily to reconcile. When we choose to forgive, we release a person from his indebtedness to us. We relinquish the right to seek personal revenge. We choose to say we will not hold his wrongdoing against him. However, we do not necessarily allow that person back into our trust or even fully release that person from the consequences of his sin. We are told that “the wages of sin is death” (Romans 6:23). While God’s forgiveness relieves us from eternal death, it does not always release us from the death-like consequences of sin (such as a broken relationship or the penalty provided by the justice system). Forgiveness does not mean we act as if no wrong has been done; it does mean we recognize that grace abundant has been given to us and that we have no right to hold someone else’s wrongdoing over his head.

Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/unforgiveness.html#ixzz2mABZistE

This has been what I have been trying to say. Forgiving doesn't mean just trusting someone again. A person can forgive someone that raped them, but does that mean they should just hang out like old buddies? I don't think so...that is not something I would want to tempt to see if it happened again. :cool::(

Like that first example I gave...Joe's best friend was stealing from him. He caught him. He forgave, whether his friend said sorry or not. The bible doesn't say let his friend back to his home to steal from him again. Doesn't say to trust him. If his friend did confess and did say he was really, really sorry and returned all the stolen items, Joe could try the relationship again. But lets say his friend steals from him again. Joe forgives again, but seriously how many times does it take for someone to keep stealing from Joe, before Joe realizes this friend isn't really a friend and can't be trusted. :hmm: Lets say his friend never steals from him again and in fact has Joe help him with this stealing compulsions and his friend gets better and they go on to have a lasting relationship though the years. That is great and wonderful of course. The best out come possible. But it really, really is going to depend on what was done whether a person wants to also go on to try to reconcile or not.

God bless

Jake
Dec 1st 2013, 12:07 AM
If anyone else hasn't noticed, this thread has been powerful, if people don't mind, I'd like to share what happened after pondering what was written in this thread (this happened after I wished for this thread to disintegrate - haha). J/K

I asked someone forgiveness recently and they forgave me, I have been unforgiving of my brother, my real brother, for something he did to me (it's a long story), anyway God immediately pointed out the story in the Bible of the one who the King forgave, only for the one forgiven to turn around and be unforgiving to the one who owed him a debt. The issue I took with it was magnifying his sin over mine, my sin was nothing compared to his sin and this I spent all day trying to convince God, but He was not persuaded - at all. The direction God took this was not in the sin at all but that my brother is in desperate need of a Savior and all this time I held this huge grudge, I should have been showing him love by praying for him.

Maybe not so earth moving for all of you, but it's a big deal for me. Not sure if I have forgiven all the way, but I did pray for my brother for the first time today.

Oregongrown
Dec 1st 2013, 12:23 AM
If anyone else hasn't noticed, this thread has been powerful, if people don't mind, I'd like to share what happened after pondering what was written in this thread (this happened after I wished for this thread to disintegrate - haha). J/K

I asked someone forgiveness recently and they forgave me, I have been unforgiving of my brother, my real brother, for something he did to me (it's a long story), anyway God immediately pointed out the story in the Bible of the one who the King forgave, only for the one forgiven to turn around and be unforgiving to the one who owed him a debt. The issue I took with it was magnifying his sin over mine, my sin was nothing compared to his sin and this I spent all day trying to convince God, but He was not persuaded - at all. The direction God took this was not in the sin at all but that my brother is in desperate need of a Savior and all this time I held this huge grudge, I should have been showing him love by praying for him.

Maybe not so earth moving for all of you, but it's a big deal for me. Not sure if I have forgiven all the way, but I did pray for my brother for the first time today.

Ah Jake, that is just so awesome, praise God, and thank you for sharing it. Prayer is an amazing blessing, one on one with The One True God12153

Oregongrown
Dec 1st 2013, 12:33 AM
Hi MG, I don't think what I had heard is in the bible, I can't find it. A better way to explain what I "heard" was if I hold a grudge against someone, and they know it, know I am not forgiving them, they may be tempted to sin more. Like with an unforgiving parent lets say. The child has done wrong, but the parent won't "forgive" the child, they hold it over their head. So the child is wounded and keeps acting out, because they want their parents forgiveness, to know they love them. Hope that makes more sense.

I don't have tv so I don't see Dr. Phil but I have heard of him. I certainly wouldn't laugh at you MG, it's not like I have never watched shows on tv others disagree with watching;) I think at least one, deeper problem yes, no God-confidence;) or God-security instead of insecurity;) I don't even believe in self-confidence anymore, my confidence has to come from Christ or it's useless imo;) I love the verses you found as well. God is all about teaching us to live (even survive) in this fallen world. He gives us all the tools, we just have to accept them, believe, trust, obey, His Word, ysic, God bless your evening MG, denise

Jake
Dec 1st 2013, 12:54 AM
Ah Jake, that is just so awesome, praise God, and thank you for sharing it. Prayer is an amazing blessing, one on one with The One True God12153

Thanks oregongrown, I should have mentioned there was more that happened and more God revealed, but the other is sort of personal.

I love the Lord, He is good!

Dimaline
Dec 1st 2013, 01:11 AM
I try to forgive right away, it's not always easy but whenever I get mad at someone God reminds me that if I forgive I will be forgiven. I don't think I've ever had anyone do something so bad to me that I couldn't forgive them in a decent amount of time after the incident. I know that if I'm going to be saved I'm going to need forgiveness for the Sins I still struggle with so I want to forgive people who wrong me. It does take some effort but when I realize that I could die at anytime I'm going to need forgiveness so I must forgive others.

moonglow
Dec 1st 2013, 04:19 AM
If anyone else hasn't noticed, this thread has been powerful, if people don't mind, I'd like to share what happened after pondering what was written in this thread (this happened after I wished for this thread to disintegrate - haha). J/K

I asked someone forgiveness recently and they forgave me, I have been unforgiving of my brother, my real brother, for something he did to me (it's a long story), anyway God immediately pointed out the story in the Bible of the one who the King forgave, only for the one forgiven to turn around and be unforgiving to the one who owed him a debt. The issue I took with it was magnifying his sin over mine, my sin was nothing compared to his sin and this I spent all day trying to convince God, but He was not persuaded - at all. The direction God took this was not in the sin at all but that my brother is in desperate need of a Savior and all this time I held this huge grudge, I should have been showing him love by praying for him.

Maybe not so earth moving for all of you, but it's a big deal for me. Not sure if I have forgiven all the way, but I did pray for my brother for the first time today.

That is awesome jake...glad this thread was bugging you so much...;):lol: I hope it does move you to being able to fully forgive your brother and being able to tell him that, in time. This is why I said I don't agree that this isn't an emotional issue. Its very emotional! And its something people can really struggle with. In Matthew chapter five, Jesus was basically re-teaching things that the Jews had come to believe...to not forgive, to hate our enemies, to get revenge, and literally an eye for an eye thing...eww. So right off the bat He undermined and corrected what the Jewish religious leaders had been teaching the people. His ideas seemed backwards...and they were the complete opposite as to how these people had been raised. He was radical. He made alot of enemies right off the bat! Its not easy being a Christian sometimes. Its easier to hold grudges, stay mad, try to get even with others, or just cut them out of our lives. Sometimes for our own safety (and sanity) though that has to be done. Doesn't mean we shouldn't continue to pray for them though.


Oregongrown


Hi MG, I don't think what I had heard is in the bible, I can't find it. A better way to explain what I "heard" was if I hold a grudge against someone, and they know it, know I am not forgiving them, they may be tempted to sin more. Like with an unforgiving parent lets say. The child has done wrong, but the parent won't "forgive" the child, they hold it over their head. So the child is wounded and keeps acting out, because they want their parents forgiveness, to know they love them. Hope that makes more sense.

I don't have tv so I don't see Dr. Phil but I have heard of him. I certainly wouldn't laugh at you MG, it's not like I have never watched shows on tv others disagree with watching I think at least one, deeper problem yes, no God-confidence or God-security instead of insecurity I don't even believe in self-confidence anymore, my confidence has to come from Christ or it's useless imo I love the verses you found as well. God is all about teaching us to live (even survive) in this fallen world. He gives us all the tools, we just have to accept them, believe, trust, obey, His Word, ysic, God bless your evening MG, denise

Oh I see! Well that makes sense when its a parent child thing going on (teenager, young adult). I would have to think on that one and see if I can think of any bible verses that would show that. :hmm:

You can always find Dr. Phil (I am sure) on youtube! :lol::lol: Some people on here (including my son) don't care for Dr. Phil very much. Which is why I said that. :rolleyes: A while back they were doing shows on abusive relationships. While we know there are cases of women/girlfriends or wives abusing men, they only cover women in abusive relationship with a boy friend or husband. (I didn't see them all so they might have covered the first I mentioned.) His wife made a website especially for teenagers to download an app to if they are in an abusive relationship that covers things they need to do if they find themselves in a dangerous situation. The app does not look like what it is though. Its like a hidden app, so even if their boyfriends get ahold of their phones they don't know what it is and can't do anything with it. They were trying very hard to help people not only realize they are in an abusive relationship but how to get out of it. I commend them for that.

Thank you for your kind words! You have a peaceful and wonderful sleep tonight dear. :)

God bless

moonglow
Dec 1st 2013, 04:21 AM
I try to forgive right away, it's not always easy but whenever I get mad at someone God reminds me that if I forgive I will be forgiven. I don't think I've ever had anyone do something so bad to me that I couldn't forgive them in a decent amount of time after the incident. I know that if I'm going to be saved I'm going to need forgiveness for the Sins I still struggle with so I want to forgive people who wrong me. It does take some effort but when I realize that I could die at anytime I'm going to need forgiveness so I must forgive others.

That is a very good habit to have for anyone, because none of us knows when its time to go home.

God bless