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Nick
Nov 28th 2013, 10:45 PM
If we got what we deserved we'd all be externally separated from God. That aside, this brings to mind the Parable of Talents. Is it fair for the one that doubled the 10 talents to get the extra one the sluggard was too afraid to invest? Why him and not the one who doubled the 5 talents? Seems to me God rewards people that lay it all on the line and go BIG while relying on Him to deliver. This concept applied to a career or making money can be very rewarding, financially. I believe God wants us to take BIG risks and rely on Him to deliver the results.

The Parable of the Talents

14 “For it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+25%3A14-30&version=ESV#fen-ESV-24019a)] and entrusted to them his property.15 To one he gave five talents,[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+25%3A14-30&version=ESV#fen-ESV-24020b)] to another two, to another one, to each according to his ability. Then he went away. 16 He who had received the five talents went at once and traded with them, and he made five talents more. 17 So also he who had the two talents made two talents more. 18 But he who had received the one talent went and dug in the ground and hid his master's money. 19 Now after a long time the master of those servants came and settled accounts with them. 20 And he who had received the five talents came forward, bringing five talents more, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me five talents; here I have made five talents more.’ 21 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant.[c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+25%3A14-30&version=ESV#fen-ESV-24026c)] You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’ 22 And he also who had the two talents came forward, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me two talents; here I have made two talents more.’ 23 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’24 He also who had received the one talent came forward, saying, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reapingwhere you did not sow, and gathering where you scattered no seed, 25 so I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here you have what is yours.’ 26 But his master answered him, ‘You wicked and slothful servant! You knew that I reap where I have not sown and gather where I scattered no seed? 27 Then you ought to have invested my money with the bankers, and at my coming I should have received what was my own with interest. 28 So take the talent from him and give it to him who has the ten talents. 29 For to everyone who has will more be given, and he will have an abundance. But from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. 30 And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

Oregongrown
Nov 28th 2013, 10:58 PM
If we got what we deserved we'd all be externally separated from God. That aside, this brings to mind the Parable of Talents. Is it fair for the one that doubled the 10 talents to get the extra one the sluggard was too afraid to invest? Why him and not the one who doubled the 5 talents? Seems to me God rewards people that lay it all on the line and go BIG while relying on Him to deliver. This concept applied to a career or making money can be very rewarding, financially. I believe God wants us to take BIG risks and rely on Him to deliver the results.

The Parable of the Talents

14 “For it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+25%3A14-30&version=ESV#fen-ESV-24019a)] and entrusted to them his property.15 To one he gave five talents,[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+25%3A14-30&version=ESV#fen-ESV-24020b)] to another two, to another one, to each according to his ability. Then he went away. 16 He who had received the five talents went at once and traded with them, and he made five talents more. 17 So also he who had the two talents made two talents more. 18 But he who had received the one talent went and dug in the ground and hid his master's money. 19 Now after a long time the master of those servants came and settled accounts with them. 20 And he who had received the five talents came forward, bringing five talents more, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me five talents; here I have made five talents more.’ 21 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant.[c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+25%3A14-30&version=ESV#fen-ESV-24026c)] You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’ 22 And he also who had the two talents came forward, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me two talents; here I have made two talents more.’ 23 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’24 He also who had received the one talent came forward, saying, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reapingwhere you did not sow, and gathering where you scattered no seed, 25 so I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here you have what is yours.’ 26 But his master answered him, ‘You wicked and slothful servant! You knew that I reap where I have not sown and gather where I scattered no seed? 27 Then you ought to have invested my money with the bankers, and at my coming I should have received what was my own with interest. 28 So take the talent from him and give it to him who has the ten talents. 29 For to everyone who has will more be given, and he will have an abundance. But from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. 30 And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

I agree Nick, also, I believe that God wants us be bold in what we ask Him for, like not just a job (as an example for me personally) but a good job, one that pays well (according to my skills) and benefits etc.

I think it's about not hoarding what we have as well, the talents parable, in fear of losing it. I think it is true that the more we give, the more we get. Not financially necessarily, like the prosperity doctrine that seems popular nowadays, but like that lady in the bible that gave her last pennies? But I have heard over and over you can not out-give God. So for myself, I understand it as when God gives me something, I am supposed to share it, even give it away.

This was a good reminder for me, the parable of the talents:) God bless, denise, ysic

Oregongrown
Nov 28th 2013, 11:02 PM
I'm sorry I didn't address the fairness part, but what I am finding is that God doesn't always seem fair to me, but I find out that there is a good, purpose to the way He does things. Some things I am still in the dark about, but I am learning;) denise, ysic

Aviyah
Nov 28th 2013, 11:54 PM
I agree Nick, also, I believe that God wants us be bold in what we ask Him for, like not just a job (as an example for me personally) but a good job, one that pays well (according to my skills) and benefits etc.

I have a tough time asking "big" because the things most desired are often the things refused.

Oregongrown
Nov 29th 2013, 12:25 AM
I have a tough time asking "big" because the things most desired are often the things refused.

My understanding of God is that He wants to give us good things, but if I pray for something I want materially, or say, for someone to be saved, I don't think He is refusing me always if I don't see any results. Sometimes I believe it is in His timing He might give me a "yes" on my prayer. Or He may be telling me He is going to wait. He also might not see that what I am praying for is beneficial, or in His will.

Everyone knows the verse John 14:13 And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

I think it is widely misunderstood, only my take on it (opinion) but I agree with the opinion of Dave Guzik of Calvary Chapel in his commentary:

c. Whatever you ask in My name, that I will do: In My name is not an Aladdin’s lamp of prayer; it signifies both an endorsement (like a check) and a limitation (requests must be in accordance with the character of the name). We are coming to God in Jesus’ name, not in our own.

Where it says in the character of the name, the name of Jesus makes such wonderful sense to me. Would Jesus pray for a million dollars for example? Well, I don't think that is His character.

I do believe God says no to some prayers, for the reasons I already mentioned above, but that doesn't mean to stop asking for them, if you believe it is something God would see fit to give us. I was unbiblically divorced 18 years ago, and I started out praying to be married again. God has said no. And then I learned the Truth of the Word, and I see why He said no. I don't want to live my life outside of God's will.

But again, if we pray for things we know He would smile upon, don't give up on praying, and if you're not sure it's what He would want for you, keep praying, He will let you know, that's my experience anyway:) hugs, ysic, denise

jayne
Nov 29th 2013, 12:49 AM
If we got what we deserved we'd all be externally separated from God. That aside, this brings to mind the Parable of Talents. Is it fair for the one that doubled the 10 talents to get the extra one the sluggard was too afraid to invest? Why him and not the one who doubled the 5 talents? Seems to me God rewards people that lay it all on the line and go BIG while relying on Him to deliver. This concept applied to a career or making money can be very rewarding, financially. I believe God wants us to take BIG risks and rely on Him to deliver the results.

You're right about getting what we deserve. If God were fair, we'd all be in hell. Thank the LORD, that He is just and merciful.

I'm kind of seeing this extra talent that the first guy received wasn't going in his own pocket. It was given to him to do with as he did the first five. Make it grow for the master.

The master in the parable said that it was all his and that these guys were just stewards and managers of his (the master's money). So, I think the reward came in being trusted with more - not personally given more.

I think the last guy condemns his own self with his words. He doesn't trust the master - he's scared of him and he is also lazy. "Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you scattered no seed, so I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here you have what is yours."

The master tells him that the very least he could do was to let a banker have it and turn a profit.

I think God knows and Jesus knows that life is NOT fair for the majority of people. Some are born with so resources untold - (many things, abilities, gifts, talents, capabilities) and some with little. It's what we do with these things - FOR the Lord, for His gain. If someone can write or teach or encourage or minister to the downtrodden or financially support or pray or fight spiritual battles or lead others or be peacemakers ..... or ANYTHING that God endows them with interests and abilities to do so and they do not .... that person is lazy and wicked. Just like the last servant.

It doesn't matter what we are born into or given - it's what we do with it. And when we use these things to further God's kingdom, He entrusts us with more to do.

My grandmother was born into nothing, lived with nothing, and died with nothing. All she had was a Godly attitude and a inclination to take care of her own children and other pitiful children - some her own nieces and nephews who had sorry parents. Once, in the 1970's a car came pulling into her driveway and a young man jumped out and pulled out his girlfriend who was having a reaction to illegal drugs. He asked my grandmother for help. She knew who they were and knew their parents. She assessed that the girl didn't need medical attention, just needed to dry out and she gladly took them in. She put the girl in her bed and fed her toast and tea and water. Partly to make her throw up and partly to ease her stomach. I know these people and I can tell you that I don't know of anyone back in those days in that tiny hillbilly town who would have done that.

That girl is now in her 60's, is a Christian, and has never forgotten that night. Scores of people who had known hard times, mental illness, family crises, and more told me at my grandmother's funeral of her and my grandfather's kindness, encouragement, love, and support when they could find it no where else. I was shocked. I had an inkling of some of these things, but to the degree that their arms reached in the community - I had no clue. One prominent preacher in the community told me that when he was a young man that he was very, very rebellious and sinful. When he was saved, he felt the call of God to preach and entered seminary. NO one, he said, not even his own family encouraged him or believed in him or support him financially. But my grandfather believed in him and sent him $50 a month for the entire time he was in seminary in the 1970's. I don't know where my grandfather got a spare $50 a month back then. Literally.

My grandparents gave to people all that they had - help, support, encouragement, and love. They had no money, no material things. But they took what God had given them and multiplied it 1000 fold. And God gave them, in return, more people to reach out to. I think this is the main point of the parable of the talents.

Nick
Nov 29th 2013, 01:45 AM
Inspiring story Jayne and thanks for sharing it. There is something to be said for the common saying "life isn't fair". It's not. I didn't do anything to 'deserve' the blessed life I have. In fact one of my biggest challenges is staying grateful for all the good things in my life.

Aviyah
Nov 29th 2013, 01:48 AM
Sometimes I believe it is in His timing He might give me a "yes" on my prayer. Or He may be telling me He is going to wait. He also might not see that what I am praying for is beneficial, or in His will.

How have you learned to differentiate between "wait" and "no?"

ewq1938
Nov 29th 2013, 01:56 AM
There is no "big risk" in the story. The man who doubled his money did it wisely through trading, not gambling or risking anything. If you know what you are doing, there is no risk.



If we got what we deserved we'd all be externally separated from God. That aside, this brings to mind the Parable of Talents. Is it fair for the one that doubled the 10 talents to get the extra one the sluggard was too afraid to invest? Why him and not the one who doubled the 5 talents? Seems to me God rewards people that lay it all on the line and go BIG while relying on Him to deliver. This concept applied to a career or making money can be very rewarding, financially. I believe God wants us to take BIG risks and rely on Him to deliver the results.

The Parable of the Talents

14 “For it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+25%3A14-30&version=ESV#fen-ESV-24019a)] and entrusted to them his property.15 To one he gave five talents,[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+25%3A14-30&version=ESV#fen-ESV-24020b)] to another two, to another one, to each according to his ability. Then he went away. 16 He who had received the five talents went at once and traded with them, and he made five talents more. 17 So also he who had the two talents made two talents more. 18 But he who had received the one talent went and dug in the ground and hid his master's money. 19 Now after a long time the master of those servants came and settled accounts with them. 20 And he who had received the five talents came forward, bringing five talents more, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me five talents; here I have made five talents more.’ 21 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant.[c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+25%3A14-30&version=ESV#fen-ESV-24026c)] You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’ 22 And he also who had the two talents came forward, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me two talents; here I have made two talents more.’ 23 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’24 He also who had received the one talent came forward, saying, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reapingwhere you did not sow, and gathering where you scattered no seed, 25 so I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here you have what is yours.’ 26 But his master answered him, ‘You wicked and slothful servant! You knew that I reap where I have not sown and gather where I scattered no seed? 27 Then you ought to have invested my money with the bankers, and at my coming I should have received what was my own with interest. 28 So take the talent from him and give it to him who has the ten talents. 29 For to everyone who has will more be given, and he will have an abundance. But from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. 30 And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

Nick
Nov 29th 2013, 03:10 AM
There is no "big risk" in the story. The man who doubled his money did it wisely through trading, not gambling or risking anything. If you know what you are doing, there is no risk.

LOL! There is always risk in trading and investing. It's about seizing the opportunity and it doesn't always work out. The parable of the talents illustrates the tragedy of wasted opportunity. The man who goes on the journey represents Christ, and the slaves represent professing believers given different levels of responsibility. Faithfulness is what he demands of them, but the parable suggests that all who are faithful will be fruitful to some degree. The fruitless person is unmasked as a hypocrite and utterly destroyed (v. 30). The first and second servants acted industriously and earned a return on their entrusted amounts, probably by setting up some kind of business.

The difference between a millionaire and a billionaire is usually luck and timing but if you're not in the game you stand no chance. When George Soros took down the Bank of England he bet the farm and it paid off in spades. If IBM thought there was huge profit in software they would have negotiated a much different deal with Bill Gates and he probably wouldn't be the mega billionaire he is today. And you think Warren Buffet didn't take risk to obtain his fortunes? If Yahoo saw any value in Google they would have accepted Sergey and Larry's offer for $1 Million.

ewq1938
Nov 29th 2013, 03:20 AM
There is always risk in trading and investing.

The story doesn't speak of anyone participating in risky investing. Trading has no risk if you know what you are doing. You buy a flask of wine for 10 and it's worth 20, no "big" risk. The story speaks of using money to make more money in wise ways.




The parable of the talents illustrates the tragedy of wasted opportunity.

Yes, but it doesn't show God expecting anyone to take "big risks" as you said in the OP.

Nick
Nov 29th 2013, 03:31 AM
The story doesn't speak of anyone participating in risky investing. Trading has no risk if you know what you are doing. You buy a flask of wine for 10 and it's worth 20, no "big" risk. The story speaks of using money to make more money in wise ways.

How do you know what did they did to earn the money? The text doesn't say now does it? We can add or subtract content if we want or we can stick to the written word.


Yes, but it doesn't show God expecting anyone to take "big risks" as you said in the OP.

Being a follower of Christ is a "big" risk, especially in certain parts of the world. You have the count the cost and operate on complete faith. Going into business for yourself is a big risk. You can win big or lose big. That is how I chose to interpret its meaning. I would rather swing for the bleachers and have complete faith. The sluggard was obviously too scared to do anything with the talent. If the risk of losing it didn't exist he would have done something with it.

ewq1938
Nov 29th 2013, 03:48 AM
How do you know what did they did to earn the money? The text doesn't say now does it? We can add or subtract content if we want or we can stick to the written word.

First of all, you are adding to the story that God wants us to take "big risks" and that is NOT in the story so take your own advice about adding or subtracting from the content!

Second, it does tell us how the first doubled up, trading:


He who had received the five talents went at once and traded with them, and he made five talents more.






Being a follower of Christ is a "big" risk, especially in certain parts of the world.

So? Has nothing to do with this story.

Reynolds357
Nov 29th 2013, 03:55 AM
If we got what we deserved we'd all be externally separated from God. That aside, this brings to mind the Parable of Talents. Is it fair for the one that doubled the 10 talents to get the extra one the sluggard was too afraid to invest? Why him and not the one who doubled the 5 talents? Seems to me God rewards people that lay it all on the line and go BIG while relying on Him to deliver. This concept applied to a career or making money can be very rewarding, financially. I believe God wants us to take BIG risks and rely on Him to deliver the results.

The Parable of the Talents

14 “For it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+25%3A14-30&version=ESV#fen-ESV-24019a)] and entrusted to them his property.15 To one he gave five talents,[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+25%3A14-30&version=ESV#fen-ESV-24020b)] to another two, to another one, to each according to his ability. Then he went away. 16 He who had received the five talents went at once and traded with them, and he made five talents more. 17 So also he who had the two talents made two talents more. 18 But he who had received the one talent went and dug in the ground and hid his master's money. 19 Now after a long time the master of those servants came and settled accounts with them. 20 And he who had received the five talents came forward, bringing five talents more, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me five talents; here I have made five talents more.’ 21 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant.[c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+25%3A14-30&version=ESV#fen-ESV-24026c)] You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’ 22 And he also who had the two talents came forward, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me two talents; here I have made two talents more.’ 23 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’24 He also who had received the one talent came forward, saying, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reapingwhere you did not sow, and gathering where you scattered no seed, 25 so I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here you have what is yours.’ 26 But his master answered him, ‘You wicked and slothful servant! You knew that I reap where I have not sown and gather where I scattered no seed? 27 Then you ought to have invested my money with the bankers, and at my coming I should have received what was my own with interest. 28 So take the talent from him and give it to him who has the ten talents. 29 For to everyone who has will more be given, and he will have an abundance. But from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. 30 And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

Maybe, maybe not. Soloman seemed to advise the "balanced portfolio" approach.

Slug1
Nov 29th 2013, 03:55 AM
If we got what we deserved we'd all be externally separated from God. That aside, this brings to mind the Parable of Talents. Is it fair for the one that doubled the 10 talents to get the extra one the sluggard was too afraid to invest? Why him and not the one who doubled the 5 talents? Seems to me God rewards people that lay it all on the line and go BIG while relying on Him to deliver. This concept applied to a career or making money can be very rewarding, financially. I believe God wants us to take BIG risks and rely on Him to deliver the results.

Nick... have you considered that the point isn't about the gain or about the "reward" the servants had in their hands... it's about the faithfulness of those who did work to bear more fruit? Those who took the talents and did something that resulted in more, were exercising stewardship over what they were given. It's not about taking risks, it's about taking what God has given you and doing all you can with it and in faith(fulness) God multiplies to those who "do". God gives us "opportunities" and when we "do", God will give MORE to do. The reward isn't about money, the reward is to be given more "work" by God.

Nick
Nov 29th 2013, 04:17 AM
Nick... have you considered that the point isn't about the gain or about the "reward" the servants had in their hands... it's about the faithfulness of those who did work to bear more fruit? Those who took the talents and did something that resulted in more, were exercising stewardship over what they were given. It's not about taking risks, it's about taking what God has given you and doing all you can with it and in faith(fulness) God multiplies to those who "do". God gives us "opportunities" and when we "do", God will give MORE to do. The reward isn't about money, the reward is to be given more "work" by God.

That makes sense. What's wrong with the concept of using what God has given us and "betting" on ourselves. I'm not talking about Vegas style gambling. I'm talking about having a dream and going for it. Most people are vocationally unhappy or downright miserable. They can't stand their job. I don't believe that is God's will for us. Starting your own business - investing in yourself involves risk. I believe the Parable is telling us to use what God has given us to prosper financially. This Parable happens to be about earning a financial return, which means investing, trading and taking risk. Many Soloman's proverbs are about financial prosperity and how to obtain it.

Nick
Nov 29th 2013, 04:19 AM
Maybe, maybe not. Soloman seemed to advise the "balanced portfolio" approach.

Retirement assets (portfolio diversification) and starting a business are two entirely different categories of risk.

Nick
Nov 29th 2013, 04:25 AM
First of all, you are adding to the story that God wants us to take "big risks" and that is NOT in the story so take your own advice about adding or subtracting from the content!

Second, it does tell us how the first doubled up, trading:

Trading what? You added wine. It doesn't say that. You are implying trading always = profit. You're wrong and you obviously have never been on the wrong side of a trade.


So? Has nothing to do with this story.

It has plenty to do with it that would take far too much time to explain, and I'm not wiling to invest that time.

ewq1938
Nov 29th 2013, 04:53 AM
Trading what? You added wine. It doesn't say that.

That was an example of trading. I never said what he traded in order to double his talents. It says he traded.



You are implying trading always = profit. You're wrong and you obviously have never been on the wrong side of a trade.

If you know what you are doing, you do not lose. The only times I have lost in trading is exactly when I over reached myself and got into something I didn't understand well enough. In the things I do know, I never lose.

Nick
Nov 29th 2013, 05:18 AM
If you know what you are doing, you do not lose. The only times I have lost in trading is exactly when I over reached myself and got into something I didn't understand well enough. In the things I do know, I never lose.

Uh huh. Ok then. Your comment "I never lose" is dripping in humility.

ewq1938
Nov 29th 2013, 05:22 AM
Uh huh. Ok then. Your comment "I never lose" is dripping in humility.


Humility has nothing to do with this issue Nick. Don't stoop to petty insults. Your Op is simply and obviously wrong.

Nick
Nov 29th 2013, 05:52 AM
Humility has nothing to do with this issue Nick. Don't stoop to petty insults. Your Op is simply and obviously wrong.

And how fortunate I am to have you here to reprove me every step of the way. Do you think your comment was humble…"I never lose"? Good for you. I really wish you wouldn't come crash every one of my threads with negative tangents. jayne had a beautifully inspiring story followed by your usual rhetoric. The bible says we are to love our neighbor, but we certainly don't have to like him. I don't need to boast about my financial successes. I've been blessed financially and I give all credit to God for that.

ewq1938
Nov 29th 2013, 06:25 AM
Is it fair for the one that doubled the 10 talents to get the extra one the sluggard was too afraid to invest?

Yes.



Why him and not the one who doubled the 5 talents?

Because he had no "fruit".




Seems to me God rewards people that lay it all on the line and go BIG while relying on Him to deliver.

You are wrong IMO. Otherwise you could prove this using the scriptures you posted.

Nick
Nov 29th 2013, 06:38 AM
You are wrong IMO. Otherwise you could prove this using the scriptures you posted.

It is proven within the the verses in the OP. What was God’s decision with regard to the unfaithful servant who was entrusted with one talent? Matt 25:28 and 29 state, "So take the talent from him and give it to him who has the ten talents. 29 For to everyone who has will more be given, and he will have an abundance. But from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away." (emphasis added).

The recipients of divine grace inherit immeasurable blessings in addition to eternal life and the favor of God (cf. Rom. 8:32). But those who despise the riches of God’s goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering (Rom. 2:4), burying them in the ground and clinging instead to the paltry and transient goods of this world, will ultimately lose everything they have (cf. Matt. 6:19; John 12:25).

It’s important to understand what this verse means. The words "for everyone who has will be given more" mean that everyone who has been a biblical and faithful steward, God will entrust with more. On the other hand, those have been unfaithful in their stewardship to God will lose even what they have been entrusted with. The servants who were entrusted with five talents and two talents demonstrated faithfulness to God, and thus God entrusted them with more. However, the third servant was not faithful, and therefore even that one talent was taken away from him.

ewq1938
Nov 29th 2013, 06:42 AM
It is proven within the the verses in the OP.

Please quote or provide which verse says God thinks we have to take big risks.

Nick
Nov 29th 2013, 06:49 AM
Please quote or provide which verse says God thinks we have to take big risks.

Good night. I may pick this up tomorrow but most likely not. Again, it's not worth the investment of my time. All you want to do is argue with your point. I was sharing what I got out of it. If you disagree, that's just fine by me. Since you "never lose" the chances of you seeing someone else's point of view, or even remotely interested in trying to understand it is nil.

ewq1938
Nov 29th 2013, 06:55 AM
Good night. I may pick this up tomorrow but most likely not. Again, it's not worth the investment of my time. All you want to do is argue with your point. I was sharing what I got out of it. If you disagree, that's just fine by me. Since you "never lose" the chances of you seeing someone else's point of view, or even remotely interested in trying to understand it is nil.

Ok, and just so you know I can hold my breath a very long time. It's a weird talent.

If anyone else thinks God wants us to take a "big risk" according to those scriptures I would like to see evidence of it, thanks.

Slug1
Nov 29th 2013, 01:56 PM
That makes sense. What's wrong with the concept of using what God has given us and "betting" on ourselves. I'm not talking about Vegas style gambling. I'm talking about having a dream and going for it. Most people are vocationally unhappy or downright miserable. They can't stand their job. I don't believe that is God's will for us. Starting your own business - investing in yourself involves risk. I believe the Parable is telling us to use what God has given us to prosper financially. This Parable happens to be about earning a financial return, which means investing, trading and taking risk. Many Soloman's proverbs are about financial prosperity and how to obtain it.Hmmm, if this is what the parable is about then the parable is counter to many other scriptures concerning the problems with money and being rich financially.

God provides, I have no doubt about that based on the provision He's provided me over the years and sustained me for almost 2 years when I was without a job and He told me to go back to college during those 2 years.

Oregongrown
Nov 29th 2013, 04:55 PM
Nick... have you considered that the point isn't about the gain or about the "reward" the servants had in their hands... it's about the faithfulness of those who did work to bear more fruit? Those who took the talents and did something that resulted in more, were exercising stewardship over what they were given. It's not about taking risks, it's about taking what God has given you and doing all you can with it and in faith(fulness) God multiplies to those who "do". God gives us "opportunities" and when we "do", God will give MORE to do. The reward isn't about money, the reward is to be given more "work" by God.

I agree, this is what I see with Jesus parable, I think too many times I make things more difficult then they are, it is about using what God blesses me, with for His Kingdom. If I don't use what God blesses me with, it's like putting my candle under a basket. So I guess now, my final answer has to be that in my "natural" eyes I may see God as unfair, but through the Holy Spirit's eyes, I see that God is teaching me, and maturing me.

Oregongrown
Nov 29th 2013, 05:05 PM
Ok, and just so you know I can hold my breath a very long time. It's a weird talent.

If anyone else thinks God wants us to take a "big risk" according to those scriptures I would like to see evidence of it, thanks.

I think if we are looking at our own strength, it can seem like God is asking us to take a risk. I have often felt that way, even with say, a tithe at church etc., or giving some bucks to a homeless person. But when we see through the Holy Spirit's eyes, we see it is not so scarey, and we can depend on God to continue to provide our needs. Those parables are about that, trusting God and using our gifts, not storing them away where they are useless.

So if a brother or sister in Christ asks a question, or brings up a topic, I think we can discuss it, share verses etc., with truth and grace. But it depends on who we are relying on, our own "smarts" or Christ in us.

Nick
Nov 29th 2013, 05:28 PM
Hmmm, if this is what the parable is about then the parable is counter to many other scriptures concerning the problems with money and being rich financially.

God provides, I have no doubt about that based on the provision He's provided me over the years and sustained me for almost 2 years when I was without a job and He told me to go back to college during those 2 years.

A parable can have multiple meanings and usually does. Just because Jesus was born poor doesn't mean making money is a bad thing. It's the love of money that is sin. What if the motive is to make lots of money to do good? I know that's my motive. I want to have a greater impact, and like it or not, that takes money. Bigger impact = larger sums of money. And that's the way the world works. What good is it to have church planters and missionaries without people like me to support them? Evangelism relies on money. The Gospel relies on money. The church relies on money. Money does make the world go round. If my motive is to do good with the fortunes I plan to make then I believe God will bless my business.

Oregongrown
Nov 29th 2013, 05:51 PM
A parable can have multiple meanings and usually does. Just because Jesus was born poor doesn't mean making money is a bad thing. It's the love of money that is sin. What if the motive is to make lots of money to do good? I know that's my motive. I want to have a greater impact, and like it or not, that takes money. Bigger impact = larger sums of money. And that's the way the world works. What good is it to have church planters and missionaries without people like me to support them? Evangelism relies on money. The Gospel relies on money. The church relies on money. Money does make the world go round. If my motive is to do good with the fortunes I plan to make then I believe God will bless my business.

Morning Nick:) I think your desire to serve the Lord sounds wonderful (and your plans), and God can use us, and our gifts to further His Kingdom. If this is your calling (and God does look at our hearts) then He will make provision. For me I have to remember that His plan may be different then mine, and know that His ways are higher then mine. So then I am less disappointed if the plan doesn't work out like I thought it should.

I also am looking at the parable, and I see it as Slug does as well, and you do too I see when you say it has multiple meanings for us. I do think it has one purpose, to show us that what God gives us, we are to use, not waste, or cling to in fear. You are right about the money being needed, and it is the "love" of money that is the sin, putting anything before our love for God is idolatry, which you know I am sure. God knows your heart (your motives) and I see Him using you, and I see Him using me, He will use all His kids when we are willing to hear and obey;)

Funny I just thought of Jonah in the belly of the fish, contemplating how he was being convinced that God had called him to do a job, and he was getting "very" willing to do it:) I figure he was chosen to do the job in Ninevah, because God chooses different people for different jobs (and enables them to do that job). So again, I see that if I don't use what God gives me to serve, then I may get swallowed by a fish;) You are using your gifts so not much chance of you going Jonah's route;)

ysic, Denise

Slug1
Nov 29th 2013, 06:36 PM
A parable can have multiple meanings and usually does. Just because Jesus was born poor doesn't mean making money is a bad thing. It's the love of money that is sin. What if the motive is to make lots of money to do good? I know that's my motive. I want to have a greater impact, and like it or not, that takes money. Bigger impact = larger sums of money. And that's the way the world works. What good is it to have church planters and missionaries without people like me to support them? Evangelism relies on money. The Gospel relies on money. The church relies on money. Money does make the world go round. If my motive is to do good with the fortunes I plan to make then I believe God will bless my business.I've always viewed parables spiritually and to me, the parable has nothing to do with worldly riches but what is needed to store up "treasure" in heaven. This is done only through the good works that God will have us do and fruit is what is multiplied on earth while treasure is stored in heaven.

While all the examples you mention do rely on provision, when something is specific to God's will, do you think He give no provision for any specific task?

Nick
Nov 29th 2013, 07:14 PM
I've always viewed parables spiritually and to me, the parable has nothing to do with worldly riches but what is needed to store up "treasure" in heaven. This is done only through the good works that God will have us do and fruit is what is multiplied on earth while treasure is stored in heaven.

While all the examples you mention do rely on provision, when something is specific to God's will, do you think He give no provision for any specific task?

All throughout Proverbs, Solomon admonishes the sluggard. Why do you think that is? If God was speaking through Solomon as he penned those sayings one can easily conclude that God has great disdain for laziness. In fact, one could reasonably conclude that God lays out the path to financial prosperity through Proverbs and ECCL. I believe God wants us to use our gifts and talents to monetize on them so we can do good with the money we make. And I also believe that is one thing to take away from the Parable of the Talents. If you don't, fine. I do.

On a separate but parallel note, I personally think pastors are grossly underpaid for what they do. Pastors who do a good job and don't pay themselves a decent and respectable salary for fear of what people think are not obeying the bible. They're on call 24/7 for the most part. The bigger the church, the more issues the pastor has to deal with. The bible tells us pastors and teachers are worthy of double honor - "Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching." (1 Tim 5:17). The usage of the words 'double honor' refers to monetary compensation and it means they should be generously remunerated. A pastor who has influence over many people can literally save souls by being God's mouthpiece. You can't assign a price to that because it's priceless for a believer. Yes, they should be well rewarded here on earth for what they do. At least that's how I see it and my view seems to harmonize with Scripture on that point.

Slug1
Nov 29th 2013, 08:04 PM
All throughout Proverbs, Solomon admonishes the sluggard. Why do you think that is? If God was speaking through Solomon as he penned those sayings one can easily conclude that God has great disdain for laziness. In fact, one could reasonably conclude that God lays out the path to financial prosperity through Proverbs and ECCL. I believe God wants us to use our gifts and talents to monetize on them so we can do good with the money we make. And I also believe that is one thing to take away from the Parable of the Talents. If you don't, fine. I do.

On a separate but parallel note, I personally think pastors are grossly underpaid for what they do. Pastors who do a good job and don't pay themselves a decent and respectable salary for fear of what people think are not obeying the bible. They're on call 24/7 for the most part. The bigger the church, the more issues the pastor has to deal with. The bible tells us pastors and teachers are worthy of double honor - "Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching." (1 Tim 5:17). The usage of the words 'double honor' refers to monetary compensation and it means they should be generously remunerated. A pastor who has influence over many people can literally save souls by being God's mouthpiece. You can't assign a price to that because it's priceless for a believer. Yes, they should be well rewarded here on earth for what they do. At least that's how I see it and my view seems to harmonize with Scripture on that point.Doing what the Lord want's done isn't about laziness. God has good works for those who have and will (someday) accept Him. That parable shows us what happens when a person does (obedience) and also shows us what happens when a person doesn't (disobedience). While we may be thinking (good intentions) as the one who was disobedient was thinking (just hold was was given)... thinking and doing anything the way "we" may think is best... is NOT.

It's not about money Nick. The parable is about obedience and the fruit grown and disobedience, no fruit and thus, consequence for not being obedient to God.



The usage of the words 'double honor' refers to monetary compensation and it means they should be generously remunerated. es, they should be well rewarded here on earth for what they do. At least that's how I see it and my view seems to harmonize with Scripture on that point.Money compensation? Are you sure? Where does the Bible ever say our "reward" is here on earth?

Nick
Nov 29th 2013, 09:45 PM
Doing what the Lord want's done isn't about laziness. God has good works for those who have and will (someday) accept Him. That parable shows us what happens when a person does (obedience) and also shows us what happens when a person doesn't (disobedience). While we may be thinking (good intentions) as the one who was disobedient was thinking (just hold was was given)... thinking and doing anything the way "we" may think is best... is NOT.

It's not about money Nick. The parable is about obedience and the fruit grown and disobedience, no fruit and thus, consequence for not being obedient to God.

It's not only about money, but money was the outcome/reward of obedience in this parable, and applied more broadly…obedience = prosperity (financial). There's a reason money was used in that parable. There's a reason money was one of Christ's main topics. In fact, 16 out of the 38 parables deal with money.


Money compensation? Are you sure? Where does the Bible ever say our "reward" is here on earth?

Yes, money compensation, as in greenbacks for a pastoral job done well. That is the spirit of 1 Tim 5:17. We're rewarded here on earth for obedience AND in the hereafter. You know this. Sometimes you ask questions that you already know the answer to. Why do you do that?

Slug1
Nov 30th 2013, 02:32 AM
It's not only about money, but money was the outcome/reward of obedience in this parable, and applied more broadly…obedience = prosperity (financial). There's a reason money was used in that parable. There's a reason money was one of Christ's main topics. In fact, 16 out of the 38 parables deal with money.



Yes, money compensation, as in greenbacks for a pastoral job done well. That is the spirit of 1 Tim 5:17. We're rewarded here on earth for obedience AND in the hereafter. You know this. Sometimes you ask questions that you already know the answer to. Why do you do that?I understand that pastors are to be paid, but this provision is "from" those they care for... not from God as you are saying. What God gives to such faithful pastors is MORE sheep, MORE missions, MORE tasks, greater responsibility... this is the meaning of reward from God.

Nick
Nov 30th 2013, 02:46 AM
I understand that pastors are to be paid, but this provision is "from" those they care for... not from God as you are saying. What God gives to such faithful pastors is MORE sheep, MORE missions, MORE tasks... this is the meaning of reward from God.

Paul is specifically addressing monetary compensation for Pastors in that verse. Why can't you engage the verse for what it actually says? And if all Scripture is breathed out by God then God commands that pastors are to be paid generously by the believers that attend his church (the sheep in your example). The absolute worse thing to do is take advantage of a churches many resources and not give back financially if you are able to. I know people that make pretty decent money and give absolutely nothing back to support the church they regularly attend because they are 'struggling' with the concept of tithing.

Slug1
Nov 30th 2013, 03:09 AM
Paul is specifically addressing monetary compensation for Pastors in that verse. Why can't you engage the verse for what it actually says? And if all Scripture is breathed out by God then God commands that pastors are to be paid generously by the believers that attend his church (the sheep in your example). The absolute worse thing to do is take advantage of a churches many resources and not give back financially if you are able to. I know people that make pretty decent money and give absolutely nothing back to support the church they regularly attend because they are 'struggling' with the concept of tithing.I did... that verse is about paying (an element of honor) those who labor. Here is my statement again:


I understand that pastors are to be paid, but this provision is "from" those they care for... not from God as you are saying.

So, now that I have engaged the verse and even agree that laborer's are to BE PAID, this still is not about the reward that the Parable of the Talents is about.

Let me add this... Matthew 25:29 is divided with Luke 12:48 and Mark 4:25-26.

Nick
Nov 30th 2013, 06:02 AM
I did... that verse is about paying (an element of honor) those who labor. Here is my statement again:


So, now that I have engaged the verse and even agree that laborer's are to BE PAID, this still is not about the reward that the Parable of the Talents is about.

Let me add this... Matthew 25:29 is divided with Luke 12:48 and Mark 4:25-26.

I think it ties. Pastors have a gift, much like the rest of believers have at least one gift. Not everyone should be a pastor/teacher as James says, but those who have the gift and develop it should be rewarded. The parable of talents is about rewarding faithfulness and obedience. A pastor's life involves extreme self-sacrifice and long hours. Gifted pastors who realize their gift and choose to develop it are being faithful and obedient just like the 2 servants that doubled the Master's money, and were rewarded for it.

Slug1
Nov 30th 2013, 09:21 AM
I think it ties. Pastors have a gift, much like the rest of believers have at least one gift. Not everyone should be a pastor/teacher as James says, but those who have the gift and develop it should be rewarded. The parable of talents is about rewarding faithfulness and obedience. A pastor's life involves extreme self-sacrifice and long hours. Gifted pastors who realize their gift and choose to develop it are being faithful and obedient just like the 2 servants that doubled the Master's money, and were rewarded for it.Well Nick... based on the verses, I can't agree with you totally between this post and the others you posted.

While I do agree that laborers are to be paid BY those they are responsible for, the One in the Parables is NOT those the laborers ARE responsible for. Your 1 Tim 5:17 shows us that those who the laborers are responsible for, ARE the ones who ARE ALSO responsible for paying the laborer. The Parables show a whole different situation where the One that the laborers are responsible TOO... GIVES them MORE responsibility after completing (multiplying what they were given) WHAT they are responsible for. The ones who don't follow through with their responsibility, are eternally punished in the end.

So... those in Christ (because only those who accept Christ are given responsibility by God = One) and offered responsibility, need to be obedient and do what they are to do because when they don't, not only is the responsibility given to others, but the one not in obedience to God, is permanently removed due to their lack of obedience.

Nick
Nov 30th 2013, 07:35 PM
Well Nick... based on the verses, I can't agree with you totally between this post and the others you posted.

While I do agree that laborers are to be paid BY those they are responsible for, the One in the Parables is NOT those the laborers ARE responsible for. Your 1 Tim 5:17 shows us that those who the laborers are responsible for, ARE the ones who ARE ALSO responsible for paying the laborer. The Parables show a whole different situation where the One that the laborers are responsible TOO... GIVES them MORE responsibility after completing (multiplying what they were given) WHAT they are responsible for. The ones who don't follow through with their responsibility, are eternally punished in the end.

So... those in Christ (because only those who accept Christ are given responsibility by God = One) and offered responsibility, need to be obedient and do what they are to do because when they don't, not only is the responsibility given to others, but the one not in obedience to God, is permanently removed due to their lack of obedience.

Where is there disagreement now? I don't see it. Unless I'm missing something we are aligned in our thinking. Perhaps you can shed some light on where the gap in understanding exists.

Slug1
Nov 30th 2013, 07:39 PM
Where is there disagreement now? I don't see it. Unless I'm missing something we are aligned in our thinking. Perhaps you can shed some light on where the gap in understanding exists.The Parable of the Talents isn't solely about monetary provision.

Nick
Nov 30th 2013, 07:58 PM
The Parable of the Talents isn't solely about monetary provision.

That has never been my view. Obedience + faith = financial reward. The was one of the things I took from it.

Slug1
Nov 30th 2013, 08:03 PM
That has never been my view. Obedience + faith = financial reward. The was one of the things I took from it.I don't agree based on the parable. God provides and a means that He ensures laborers are provided for is to MAKE it the responsibility of the sheep to GIVE, so the laborer is financially secure(d).

Reward is only what is stored up in heaven.

Nick
Nov 30th 2013, 08:23 PM
I don't agree based on the parable. God provides and a means that He ensures laborers are provided for is to MAKE it the responsibility of the sheep to GIVE, so the laborer is financially secure(d).

Reward is only what is stored up in heaven.

The servants were rewarded here on earth. The metaphor was the result of obedience and faith in the afterlife, but they received the reward while they were alive on earth. I think that's our main difference of opinion. I believe we are richly rewarded for the things we do while we're still alive as well as in the afterlife. I also believe the parable, as well as many of the proverbs having to do with financial prosperity, speaks to both scenarios.

Slug1
Nov 30th 2013, 08:37 PM
The servants were rewarded here on earth. The metaphor was the result of obedience and faith in the afterlife, but they received the reward while they were alive on earth. I think that's our main difference of opinion. I believe we are richly rewarded for the things we do while we're still alive as well as in the afterlife. I also believe the parable, as well as many of the proverbs having to do with financial prosperity, speaks to both scenarios.This is where we have to define prosperity then.

If my bills are paid and I have some extra to go out to dinner a couple times a month... I am being prospered beyond my needs.

Nick
Nov 30th 2013, 09:33 PM
This is where we have to define prosperity then.

If my bills are paid and I have some extra to go out to dinner a couple times a month... I am being prospered beyond my needs.

Everyone's definition is different, but yes, anything over and beyond satisfying one's basic needs could and probably should be considered prosperous. That is certainly not the case for the majority of people living on this planet.

Slug1
Nov 30th 2013, 09:37 PM
Everyone's definition is different, but yes, anything over and beyond satisfying one's basic needs could and probably should be considered prosperous. That is certainly not the case for the majority of people living on this planet.Hooah and this is where I was gonna hope this goes. Based on your post just now... are you prospered beyond your needs and thus, no need to wonder whether or not God will prosper you in greater ways?

Nick
Nov 30th 2013, 09:45 PM
Hooah and this is where I was gonna hope this goes. Based on your post just now... are you prospered beyond your needs and thus, no need to wonder whether or not God will prosper you in greater ways?

God has put me in an unique position where I can double or triple my income without much additional effort on my part. With additional effort (say 50-60hrs/week) that number could be 4-5x what I currently make. I already do well financially, so the question is whether putting in that additional effort, which would require more travel, less family time and I'd have to cut back on my church commitments is worth it. The motive now is to use the additional $ for good but that motive could change the more involved in the world I become.

Slug1
Nov 30th 2013, 10:05 PM
God has put me in an unique position where I can double or triple my income without much additional effort on my part. With additional effort (say 50-60hrs/week) that number could be 4-5x what I currently make. I already do well financially, so the question is whether putting in that additional effort, which would require more travel, less family time and I'd have to cut back on my church commitments is worth it. The motive now is to use the additional $ for good but that motive could change the more involved in the world I become.Dude... the parable is about doing the Lord's work and laboring. Not worldly employment.

The enemy will "entice' with money to lead people away from the good works of the Lord. I KNOW this to be true because he's (satan) has attempted to do this twice in my walk with God. The enemies purpose was to take me away from the direction the Lord was showing me. First time was when I was approached for a job position that would be a raise of about $17,000 just in the first year of work. The second time, about 2 years later after remaining in the job I had, was when God was actually leading me to STOP working and go back to college. Once again, a job opportunity walked in the office and they told me that they knew I was leaving my job and that they wanted me to take a team leader position for a security force on a local Army post.

Turned them both down because each would take me away from my labor I did in the church God has me serving. Even while without a job for 22 months, I was well provided for as all bills were paid and we managed to eat out a few times a month.

Nick... I've read what you wrote a few times and I'm honest when I say this... I don't see God in anything you just testified about. God is first and if a person has family, then that family is always the first ministry God gave to the people... both of which will suffer based on all your said.

Nick
Nov 30th 2013, 11:46 PM
Nick... I've read what you wrote a few times and I'm honest when I say this... I don't see God in anything you just testified about. God is first and if a person has family, then that family is always the first ministry God gave to the people... both of which will suffer based on all your said.

If you actually read what I wrote you would have noticed that I coined it as an opportunity to make more along with the risks associated with it, not something I acted on. Apparently you glossed over that part. And I don't see God in your healing testimonies, but you do. I see God's hand all over my business because I choose to, just like you choose to believe God heals people through you.

If you knew anything about what I do, where I do it from and how much I actually work in a given week you would have a completely different view of everything I said. I currently work from home (virtual office), I travel maybe once a quarter, and work maybe 20 hrs/wk. I see my family everyday and I'm very involved in their lives. I have plenty of time for family and other church activities and I fill my schedule accordingly.

Slug1
Dec 1st 2013, 12:09 AM
If you actually read what I wrote you would have noticed that I coined it as an opportunity to make more along with the risks associated with it, not something I acted on. Apparently you glossed over that part. And I don't see God in your healing testimonies, but you do. I see God's hand all over my business because I choose to, just like you choose to believe God heals people through you.

If you knew anything about what I do, where I do it from and how much I actually work in a given week you would have a completely different view of everything I said. I currently work from home (virtual office), I travel maybe once a quarter, and work maybe 20 hrs/wk. I see my family everyday and I'm very involved in their lives. I have plenty of time for family and other church activities and I fill my schedule accordingly.Well Nick, what you stated in your other post is that your family time will be less, your time are church will be less if you "compromise"... here are your words:


less family time and I'd have to cut back on my church commitments is worth it.God doesn't "take" time away from what He's committed you to. If God is to increase, then your time to commit to HIS work will increase, not the opposite as you stated.

If you agree that the parable is about responsibility so the good work can be multiplied, that means MORE time more responsibility will be PUT INTO ministry.

I didn't gloss over anything... I read quite clear that the enemy is attempting to lure you away. I know the tactics... he's attempted them twice on me over the past 4 years.

When it comes to doing the Lord's work... there ARE no risks as you describe and there is no accepting reasonable risk that takes away from family (as you stated) nor time away from ministry (as you stated).

What is your concept of "pruning" concerning the John 15 verses?

Question... do you feel that "I" possess the ability to heal/deliver people of demons and if not and since you say you don't see God in the testimony... how does the healing happen?

Nick
Dec 1st 2013, 12:36 AM
Well Nick, what you stated in your other post is that your family time will be less, your time are church will be less if you "compromise"... here are your words:

God doesn't "take" time away from what He's committed you to. If God is to increase, then your time to commit to HIS work will increase, not the opposite as you stated.

If you agree that the parable is about responsibility so the good work can be multiplied, that means MORE time more responsibility will be PUT INTO ministry.

I didn't gloss over anything... I read quite clear that the enemy is attempting to lure you away. I know the tactics... he's attempted them twice on me over the past 4 years.

When it comes to doing the Lord's work... there ARE no risks as you describe and there is no accepting reasonable risk that takes away from family (as you stated) nor time away from ministry (as you stated).

What is your concept of "pruning" concerning the John 15 verses?

Question... do you feel that "I" possess the ability to heal/deliver people of demons and if not and since you say you don't see God in the testimony... how does the healing happen?

I'll answer your last question first. I don't believe in faith healing. No offense to you personally; I just don't believe in it. I believe, as we've discussed before, faith healing was prominent during the Apostolic Age to validate Christ's ministry. Faith healing was to demonstrate the power of Christ. The actual healing part was a secondary concern. Every one that was healed, including those raised from the dead, all eventually died except of course Christ.

The vine in John 15 is a grape vine. Grape vines benefit from regular pruning. The process of cutting off the excess material is known as "pruning" then and now. Jesus is telling us that God deals with us the same way that gardeners deal with grape vines. The extra stuff that doesn't advance the kingdom or the Gospel is removed by God. I don't view extra income that could be used to support the Gospel as something that needs to be removed. You'll have to do a better job making that connection.

Slug1
Dec 1st 2013, 12:50 AM
I'll answer your last question first. I don't believe in faith healing. No offense to you personally; I just don't believe in it. I believe, as we've discussed before, faith healing was prominent during the Apostolic Age to validate Christ's ministry. Faith healing was to demonstrate the power of Christ. The actual healing part was a secondary concern. Every one that was healed, including those raised from the dead, all eventually died except of course Christ. So who is the source of healing and the authority in casting out demons today?


The vine in John 15 is a grape vine. Grape vines benefit from regular pruning. The process of cutting off the excess material is known as "pruning" then and now. Jesus is telling us that God deals with us the same way that gardeners deal with grape vines. The extra stuff that doesn't advance the kingdom or the Gospel is removed by God. I don't view extra income that could be used to support the Gospel as something that needs to be removed. You'll have to do a better job making that connection.Nick... the verses are not about "stuff" that doesn't advance the Kingdom. The verses are specific, those who bear fruit (advancing the Kingdom) are pruned so they can bear MORE fruit of the Kingdom.

You don't understand this concerning the verses?

I'll post the one I raised to make this point:

v2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;[a] and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.

What you raised is the branch that does NOTHING (no stuff advancing the Kingdom)... just LIKE the one in the parable that buried the talent and did nothing with it. What Jesus teaches through His teaching helps us understand that specific parable as we can SEE what is happening in the parable.

So... a "person" who IS bearing fruit is pruned (the stuff isn't pruned), the verse says "IT" (the person or branch on the vine) is pruned... not the "stuff" as you raised. You said the one (or stuff) not bearing fruit is pruned, NO... they (the branch) is removed entirely based on what Jesus is teaching. Those bearing fruit ARE advancing the Kingdom and God prunes them so they can bear more. They will then be trusted or given the ability/responsibility to further the Kingdom even MORE than before. While those who are in Christ but do nothing, JUST LIKE that third one in the parable, are removed.

The enemy will deceive Christians into become UNproductive or LESS productive and in the deceit, make them believe they ARE bearing fruit.

Nick
Dec 1st 2013, 04:33 AM
So who is the source of healing and the authority in casting out demons today?

Nick... the verses are not about "stuff" that doesn't advance the Kingdom. The verses are specific, those who bear fruit (advancing the Kingdom) are pruned so they can bear MORE fruit of the Kingdom.

You don't understand this concerning the verses?

I'll post the one I raised to make this point:

v2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;[a] and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.

What you raised is the branch that does NOTHING (no stuff advancing the Kingdom)... just LIKE the one in the parable that buried the talent and did nothing with it. What Jesus teaches through His teaching helps us understand that specific parable as we can SEE what is happening in the parable.

So... a "person" who IS bearing fruit is pruned (the stuff isn't pruned), the verse says "IT" (the person or branch on the vine) is pruned... not the "stuff" as you raised. You said the one (or stuff) not bearing fruit is pruned, NO... they (the branch) is removed entirely based on what Jesus is teaching. Those bearing fruit ARE advancing the Kingdom and God prunes them so they can bear more. They will then be trusted or given the ability/responsibility to further the Kingdom even MORE than before. While those who are in Christ but do nothing, JUST LIKE that third one in the parable, are removed.

The enemy will deceive Christians into become UNproductive or LESS productive and in the deceit, make them believe they ARE bearing fruit.

I don't understand the versus in John 15? That's unfortunate because I've spent a lot of time studying and discussing it with others. Back to pruning. God prunes us through His word. He does this by convicting us of our sin and then comforting us with His forgiveness like He did with David. And this isn't just on the outside as the grape vine illustration would indicate; God mostly prunes us on the inside. Let's call it an inner cleansing. And again, He does this through His word. Like Jesus said in John 15:3 "Already you are clean because of the word that I have spoken to you." We're already pruned if you want get technical. In Heb 4;12-13 it says, "For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13 And no creature is hidden from his sight, but all are naked and exposed to the eyes of him to whom we must give account." The enemy can't deceive the elect but he'll try…"For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect."

ewq1938
Dec 1st 2013, 04:49 AM
The enemy can't deceive the elect but he'll try…"For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect."

I don't believe the verse is saying it's impossible. Only that he will try to see if it is possible to do so. Paul warns about what would happen to an elect if one were to turn away from Christ so scripture speaks of it as if it is possible. Seems unlikely but maybe someone will have a weakness and be turned. Only time will tell.

Nick
Dec 1st 2013, 05:26 AM
I don't believe the verse is saying it's impossible. Only that he will try to see if it is possible to do so. Paul warns about what would happen to an elect if one were to turn away from Christ so scripture speaks of it as if it is possible. Seems unlikely but maybe someone will have a weakness and be turned. Only time will tell.

If it could happen to God's archangel (I believe Lucifer was the highest ranking angel but I could be wrong) then it could happen to one of God's elect.

ewq1938
Dec 1st 2013, 05:38 AM
If it could happen to God's archangel (I believe Lucifer was the highest ranking angel but I could be wrong) then it could happen to one of God's elect.

I agree .

Slug1
Dec 1st 2013, 12:53 PM
I don't understand the versus in John 15? That's unfortunate because I've spent a lot of time studying and discussing it with others. Back to pruning. God prunes us through His word. He does this by convicting us of our sin and then comforting us with His forgiveness like He did with David. And this isn't just on the outside as the grape vine illustration would indicate; God mostly prunes us on the inside. Let's call it an inner cleansing. And again, He does this through His word. Like Jesus said in John 15:3 "Already you are clean because of the word that I have spoken to you." We're already pruned if you want get technical. In Heb 4;12-13 it says, "For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13 And no creature is hidden from his sight, but all are naked and exposed to the eyes of him to whom we must give account." The enemy can't deceive the elect but he'll try…"For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect." The reason I asked what I did was because you exhorted that the "work" was pruned... not the person.

Anyway... as we see in the teaching through the John 15 verses, God is enabling a PERSON to multiply the work of the Kingdom. He is not teaching that the person is gaining more prosperity. It just seems you are pushing for something in the Word that the parable is about a person having more money and the parable has nothing to do with that.

Nick
Dec 1st 2013, 06:50 PM
The reason I asked what I did was because you exhorted that the "work" was pruned... not the person.

Anyway... as we see in the teaching through the John 15 verses, God is enabling a PERSON to multiply the work of the Kingdom. He is not teaching that the person is gaining more prosperity. It just seems you are pushing for something in the Word that the parable is about a person having more money and the parable has nothing to do with that.

Again, money was a very important topic to Jesus. So many of his parables are money related. Jesus knew the power money has over one's life, and that the love of it causes all kinds of evil. I've always had a strong drive to make money. My ambition is the same but my motives are different. You keep saying he is not teaching that the person is gaining more prosperity by being obedient and faithful. How do you arrive at that conclusion? The reward is clear and the master's motive was clear too. He wanted his servants to make a return on the money he gave them. The master is also viewed to be corrupt so what do you make of that? Why would Jesus use a corrupt master and money to teach obedience and faith? You insist my understanding of this parable is flawed. Why don't you give me your understanding and we'll take it from there.

Oregongrown
Dec 1st 2013, 07:55 PM
Again, money was a very important topic to Jesus. So many of his parables are money related. Jesus knew the power money has over one's life, and that the love of it causes all kinds of evil. I've always had a strong drive to make money. My ambition is the same but my motives are different. You keep saying he is not teaching that the person is gaining more prosperity by being obedient and faithful. How do you arrive at that conclusion? The reward is clear and the master's motive was clear too. He wanted his servants to make a return on the money he gave them. The master is also viewed to be corrupt so what do you make of that? Why would Jesus use a corrupt master and money to teach obedience and faith? You insist my understanding of this parable is flawed. Why don't you give me your understanding and we'll take it from there.

Jesus used many parables. Parable means: par·a·ble
noun \ˈpa-rə-bəl\

: a short story that teaches a moral or spiritual lesson; especially : one of the stories told by Jesus Christ and recorded in the Bible

Ok, so again, the bible is a spiritual book, written by the Holy Spirit, not of "natural man". So you have to read and understand it through the Spirit of God (Holy Spirit). There is a spiritual meaning behind all Jesus' parables. That is what God wants us to get, and yes, we have to have the spiritual meaning interpreted to us by the Holy Spirit. This verse helps me remember that:

(I Corinthians 2:14-16): 14) “But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

This tells me I cannot understand the bible unless I allow the Holy Spirit to show me through His eyes, spiritually. I hope this makes sense.

Scooby_Snacks
Dec 1st 2013, 08:54 PM
I do not believe The Master giving the one talent that was not used to the servant with Ten talents was being unfair, because to ALL who are responsible over what was given, more will eventually be added.

I believe it shows the emphasis is on the wicked servant, rather than the one with ten talents.

Slug1
Dec 1st 2013, 09:30 PM
Again, money was a very important topic to Jesus. So many of his parables are money related. Jesus knew the power money has over one's life, and that the love of it causes all kinds of evil. I've always had a strong drive to make money. My ambition is the same but my motives are different. You keep saying he is not teaching that the person is gaining more prosperity by being obedient and faithful. How do you arrive at that conclusion? The reward is clear and the master's motive was clear too. He wanted his servants to make a return on the money he gave them. The master is also viewed to be corrupt so what do you make of that? Why would Jesus use a corrupt master and money to teach obedience and faith? You insist my understanding of this parable is flawed. Why don't you give me your understanding and we'll take it from there.Read Oregongrown's response Nick. The message is spiritual in nature and not about worldly money. It is about multiplying the WORK of the Kingdom. When you apply the teachings from John 15 to that parable, the spiritual meaning is revealed. Open your spiritual eyes because your drive for money, has you blinded.

Nick
Dec 2nd 2013, 12:38 AM
Read Oregongrown's response Nick. The message is spiritual in nature and not about worldly money. It is about multiplying the WORK of the Kingdom. When you apply the teachings from John 15 to that parable, the spiritual meaning is revealed. Open your spiritual eyes because your drive for money, has you blinded.

I did apply it and it showed you how I was able to contract the following formula: obedience + faith = abundance. How did we know this? Well, Jesus said it "But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well." What do think Jesus is referring to when he says "all these things"? The versus before give you a clue.

Slug1
Dec 2nd 2013, 12:59 AM
I did apply it and it showed you how I was able to contract the following formula: obedience + faith = abundance. How did we know this? Well, Jesus said it "But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well." What do think Jesus is referring to when he says "all these things"? The versus before give you a clue.It's about the needs of the person... food, clothing, shelter, etc.

Nick... do you NEED more money than what is needed for all your needs?

God says that we have to "first" seek the Kingdom and His righteousness... is a job that will take away from doing this, putting God first? Is a job that will take away time with family, actually a move on your part that can be called, righteous?

When you do FIRST seek the Kingdom, this will not result in something that lessens time for the Kingdom and you explained would happen.

Nick, the second part of that scripture is God telling us that He will provide food, clothes, shelter... nothing that is an over abundance.

Nick
Dec 2nd 2013, 01:42 AM
It's about the needs of the person... food, clothing, shelter, etc.

Nick... do you NEED more money than what is needed for all your needs?

God says that we have to "first" seek the Kingdom and His righteousness... is a job that will take away from doing this, putting God first? Is a job that will take away time with family, actually a move on your part that can be called, righteous?

When you do FIRST seek the Kingdom, this will not result in something that lessens time for the Kingdom and you explained would happen.

Nick, the second part of that scripture is God telling us that He will provide food, clothes, shelter... nothing that is an over abundance.

It really all depends on the persons's motive. I'm way past the stage where I care anything about keeping up with the Joneses. I used to chase after that stuff ($200k cars, boat, house on the hill, etc.) but not anymore, and ironically, I'm making more now than I did before. Gross pretty = net. I don't need to have that fancy Class A office space that was running $20k/month either. My home office works just fine yet I "needed" it before. I drive a nice Lexus that I wouldn't mind trading in for a Kia that gets better gas mileage. The grip of materialism broke when I took the Crown Financial series on biblical stewardship. You may have heard of it?

Slug1
Dec 2nd 2013, 01:45 AM
It really all depends on the persons's motive. I'm way past the stage where I care anything about keeping up with the Joneses. I used to chase after that stuff ($200k cars, boat, house on the hill, etc.) but not anymore and I'm making more now than I did before. Gross pretty = net. I don't need to have that fancy Class A office space that was running $20k/month either. My home office works just fine yet I "needed" it before. I drive a nice Lexus that I wouldn't mind trading in for a Kia that got better gas mileage. The grip of materialism broke when I took the Crown Financial series on biblical stewardship. You may have heard of it?Cool!

Is pursuing anything that will lessen time for the Kingdom evidence of first seeking the Kingdom?

Nick
Dec 2nd 2013, 01:47 AM
Cool!

Is pursuing anything that will lessen time for the Kingdom evidence of first seeking the Kingdom?

It could be turned into an opportunity to witness. My business associates are used to the flamboyant Nick. Undoubtedly some of them are curious why there's been such a radical change in lifestyle.

Curtis
Dec 2nd 2013, 01:59 AM
God is totally fair in every way in his dealings with his children. "unto much is given much is required", The more we know of the Word the more we are required to do what it says. The good part of that is it is God doing his works through us and not our self's. It is the seed of the Word of God that produces everything we need and do. Mat 13:12 "For to the one who has, more will be given, and he will have an abundance, but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away." The more we have the more we get. The reason why some get more than others is because they want it!!! They have lifted up their voice for it and earnestly crave for it more than anything else in this world. The Lord repays us for our labors in this life as long as we keep his Word in us. Pro 11:31 " Behold, the righteous shall be recompensed in the earth: much more the wicked and the sinner."

Nick
Dec 2nd 2013, 02:03 AM
God is totally fair in every way in his dealings with his children. "unto much is given much is required", The more we know of the Word the more we are required to do what it says. The good part of that is it is God doing his works through us and not our self's. It is the seed of the Word of God that produces everything we need and do. Mat 13:12 "For to the one who has, more will be given, and he will have an abundance, but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away." The more we have the more we get. The reason why some get more than others is because they want it!!! They have lifted up their voice for it and earnestly crave for it more than anything else in this world. The Lord repays us for our labors in this life as long as we keep his Word in us. Pro 11:31 " Behold, the righteous shall be recompensed in the earth: much more the wicked and the sinner."

The parts in bolds is what concerns me. It may be my own paranoia, but sometimes I think these business successes could be a test. Either way, compared to the rest of the world I live in abundance as do most of us. The Bible is very clear that God owns everything, including us.

Slug1
Dec 2nd 2013, 02:04 AM
It could be turned into an opportunity to witness. My business associates are used to the flamboyant Nick. Undoubtedly some of them are curious why there's been such a radical change in lifestyle.Is God leading you to do this?

Then your reply wouldn't be a "could be" response.

Nick, all you've been saying so far, people will see you working harder in the world, to make more money. How is this a radical lifestyle change that shines Christ that would make people curious about God?

Nick
Dec 2nd 2013, 02:08 AM
Is God leading you to do this?

Then your reply wouldn't be a "could be" response.

Nick, all you've been saying so far, people will see you working harder in the world, to make more money. How is this a radical lifestyle change that shines Christ that would make people curious about God?

Not sure yet, which is why I haven't acted on it. A mini expansion to the business wouldn't require much more additional time since there would be more people shouldering the work. The larger expansion would and it's a lot riskier. The old saying "it takes money to make money" would apply to the larger expansion. This may seem odd to you but I float a lot of ideas here first before seeking the advice of others. It helps me frame it better when it's time to address it in person.

Slug1
Dec 2nd 2013, 02:15 AM
Not sure yet, which is why I haven't acted on it. A mini expansion to the business wouldn't require much more additional time since there would be more people shouldering the work. The larger expansion would and it's a lot riskier. The old saying "it takes money to make money" would apply to the larger expansion. This may seem odd to you but I float a lot of ideas here first before seeking the advice of others. It helps me frame it better when it's time to address it in person.The Bible does say to seek wise counsel but this is reliant on God, non the less. Do you have a prayer group you pray with?

Curtis
Dec 2nd 2013, 02:20 AM
How you conduct your work ethic is a very powerful voice that speaks volumes to whom you work with. The two people that were the most influence to me to become a Christian where two guys I never said two words to, but I knew they were Christians by the light that shined out of them, and how they worked at their job. They were preaching the Word of God to me through their lives. Thank God for those who live the life.

Nick
Dec 2nd 2013, 02:24 AM
The Bible does say to seek wise counsel but this is reliant on God, non the less. Do you have a prayer group you pray with?

Yes, a few of them. I'm involved in 3 couples groups and 1 men's group. I still like to come here first with major decisions or issues, then bring it to the group. The people here are more apt to give very candid feedback because they are not invested in the outcome like a prayer group would be. I can also be more transparent here. I've done this quite a few times and it works. For example, I would still be at Saddleback if I didn't come here. There's nothing wrong with Saddleback but people brought some things to my attention that guided me in a different direction. We (my family) is extremely happy about the switch too. Everyone in the family, including my 3yr old, is in the word. Before it was just me.

Nick
Dec 2nd 2013, 02:26 AM
How you conduct your work ethic is a very powerful voice that speaks volumes to whom you work with. The two people that were the most influence to me to become a Christian where two guys I never said two words to, but I knew they were Christians by the light that shined out of them, and how they worked at their job. They were preaching the Word of God to me through their lives. Thank God for those who live the life.

This is a huge area of testing for me. Not dropping "F" bombs over the phone or in person with business colleagues has been a major adjustment and an area where I still continue to stumble. I want to be the same person in the workplace as I am at home and at church, but that can be very challenging in my industry.

Curtis
Dec 2nd 2013, 02:31 AM
I know what you mean. Sometimes it is a lot easier to lie and stay in comfort than it is to speak the truth and have some discomfort for a season. We are all tripped up sometimes in this area, and need to repent and start over hoping the next time we will get it right. Every day is a new day with a new beginning. Maybe today we will get it right! :)

Dani
Dec 2nd 2013, 02:58 AM
Good thread.:) lots of honest, reasonable discussion, it's just good. :)

This is the type thread I can learn from, as I actually have the ability to read past the first two pages. :thumbsup:

It allows me to 'see' all points of view. A debate is good when clarity and peace abounds.

Thank you all.

Blessings
Dani :OFFT:

Nick
Dec 2nd 2013, 04:25 AM
I know what you mean. Sometimes it is a lot easier to lie and stay in comfort than it is to speak the truth and have some discomfort for a season. We are all tripped up sometimes in this area, and need to repent and start over hoping the next time we will get it right. Every day is a new day with a new beginning. Maybe today we will get it right! :)

When it happens, and it happens often, I shoot an arrow prayer to God acknowledging my sin. I hate that hypocritical part of my life. Proverbs is rich with advice that is aimed at who you choose to associate with and what affect that can and does have on you. I can be influenced in the wrong way fairly easily when I'm outside my comfort zone (i.e. business trips to conferences in Vegas, SF, NY, etc.) and in party atmosphere. In my industry the concept is work hard and play hard. The average life expectancy of an investment banker is in the mid 50s. Go figure.