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Curtis
Dec 8th 2013, 08:27 AM
Luk 12:51 Do you think that I have come to give peace on earth? No, I tell you, but rather division.
Luk 12:52 For from now on in one house there will be five divided, three against two and two against three.
Luk 12:53 They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against her daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law."

Mat 10:34 "Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword.

Jesus being the most anointed preacher / teacher the world has ever known, yet he caused a lot of controversy among the religious leaders of his day. Even the people whom he taught would believe him one day, and then the next day they would not believe. Jesus even had a meeting in a synagogue at Capernaum, and all his followers were there to hear him teach. What he taught them they did not like or understand, and were offended so they all took off and never came back. The scripture says, " After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him. (John 6:59:68) There is something about the Word of God that causes divisions amongst people, and that is exactly what it is designed to do. It's purpose is to separate the sheep from the goats, the believers from the unbelievers, not join them together. Jesus was always brutally honest with every one, he never sugar coated anything. He told people where they are so they knew where they stood with God. Most of the time people do not want to hear the truth, they just want you to make them feel good. I know the secret it takes to grow a very large Church. All you have to do is preach / teach the tradition of men and they will come in droves. Example: (tradition)

1Co 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

How many times have you heard this taught? Every body understands this and will agree with the pastor, yes you are right, who knows what God has for us. Everyone can relate to this type of message because they do not have a clue to what the Lord has for them in his Kingdom. Now here is the Gospel.

1Co 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

People do not want to hear this message because they are not experiencing this in there lives, they can not relate to it. Since they can not relate to it they think there is something wrong with the preacher / teacher, so they leave and find another place that is more to their liking.This is what Jesus experienced in his ministry. How big of a Church would Jesus have if he was here right now proclaiming the Gospel? 1000 members, 500 members, maybe only 5 members.The Church in Sardis was large, and they had made a name for them self's, and was also considered very lively., yet Jesus told them they were dead. But then he tells them that there were a few who had not soiled their garments, and they would walk with him in light. A handful of true believers in the mist of many dead ones. I can just see now Jesus being asked to come and to be a guest speaker at this Church. How many people do you think would be left after his sermon? Most likely only the few that had not soiled their garments :)

Pro 9:8 Reprove not a scorner, lest he hate thee: rebuke a wise man, and he will love thee.

Maybe there are some pastors or teachers that come to this forum and wonder why there Church has not grown to where they think it should be. Maybe it is where it is suppose to be. Preaching / teaching the truth separates the sheep from the goats just like it is suppose to.

What do you think?

TheDivineWatermark
Dec 8th 2013, 08:36 AM
1Co 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.


:thumbsup: These are among my favorite verses... I just posted them the other day (at least, I think that was here. :D ) I, too, have noticed that many folks quote the first verse, while ignoring what the rest has to say.

stlcardinals5
Dec 8th 2013, 08:38 AM
Whoever is of this world will hate the Light.That is far from unity.

In the Gospel of John...Christ did not pray for the world...he prayed for his sheep..that is very telling!
Now he did pray that the world would come to him.. but that is a big difference than praying for the world like he did his sheep.

Boo
Dec 8th 2013, 12:02 PM
The Word of God brings unity to those who accept it. It brings division in the world as that acceptance happens.

Our problem among believers is that we let our ideology and doctrine divide us constantly rather than bringing unity.

Curtis
Dec 8th 2013, 04:21 PM
Whoever is of this world will hate the Light.That is far from unity.

In the Gospel of John...Christ did not pray for the world...he prayed for his sheep..that is very telling!
Now he did pray that the world would come to him.. but that is a big difference than praying for the world like he did his sheep.

I think maybe the problem is are we really preaching / teaching the light of the Gospel or are we just teaching the doctrines of men that would cause us all to just hold hands and sing a couple verses of kumbya. :)

Boo
Dec 8th 2013, 08:59 PM
I think maybe the problem is are we really preaching / teaching the light of the Gospel or are we just teaching the doctrines of men that would cause us all to just hold hands and sing a couple verses of kumbya. :)

Lots of kumbaya going around.

Scooby_Snacks
Dec 8th 2013, 10:06 PM
Lots of kumbaya going around.

Kum ba yah, my lord, Kum ba yah!
Kum ba yah, my lord, Kum ba yah!
Kum ba yah, my lord, Kum ba yah.
O Lord, Kum ba yah

Someone's crying, Lord, Kum ba yah!
Someone's crying, Lord, Kum ba yah!
Someone's crying, Lord, Kum ba yah!
O Lord, Kum ba yah

Someone's singing, Lord, Kum ba yah!
Someone's singing, Lord, Kum ba yah!
Someone's singing, Lord, Kum ba yah!
O Lord, Kum ba yah

Someone's praying, Lord, Kum ba yah!
Someone's praying, Lord, Kum ba yah!
Someone's praying, Lord, Kum ba yah!
O Lord, Kum ba yah

:applause:

Curtis
Dec 8th 2013, 10:09 PM
All together now...

Francis Drake
Dec 12th 2013, 08:43 PM
Kum ba yah, my lord, Kum ba yah!
Kum ba yah, my lord, Kum ba yah!
Kum ba yah, my lord, Kum ba yah.
O Lord, Kum ba yah

Someone's crying, Lord, Kum ba yah!
Someone's crying, Lord, Kum ba yah!
Someone's crying, Lord, Kum ba yah!
O Lord, Kum ba yah

Someone's singing, Lord, Kum ba yah!
Someone's singing, Lord, Kum ba yah!
Someone's singing, Lord, Kum ba yah!
O Lord, Kum ba yah

Someone's praying, Lord, Kum ba yah!
Someone's praying, Lord, Kum ba yah!
Someone's praying, Lord, Kum ba yah!
O Lord, Kum ba yah

:applause:

Kumbayah? No, not more singing in tongues! Can anyone interpret? LOL

episkopos
Dec 12th 2013, 11:14 PM
The word of God divides men the way no two accusers of Jesus could agree on what He said. So the disagreement comes from a human understanding of who Jesus is. True unity comes from actually knowing the Lord experientially.

LandShark
Dec 12th 2013, 11:32 PM
Maybe there are some pastors or teachers that come to this forum and wonder why there Church has not grown to where they think it should be. Maybe it is where it is suppose to be. Preaching / teaching the truth separates the sheep from the goats just like it is suppose to.

What do you think?

Personally, I think the Word is "supposed to" bring unity among BRETHREN and division between God's people and the world.

Tomb Escapee
Dec 12th 2013, 11:39 PM
As long as man is incarnated in the flesh and has not been perfected, the Word can do nothing but divide. While this could be considered man's own "fault" for being carnal and shorsighted, the age of Christianity has actually been a divinely appointed period of division and conflict - not only between the Church and the world, but within the church itself. While God's sovereignty remains a constant and he intervenes minimally in the affairs of man, he has actually (in a manner of speaking) just "sat back" and allowed man to have his own way in the world. And of course, this is has not been fairing so well for man, and we await a paradigm shift to ultimately bring about the New Heavens and New Earth.

So, the idea of whether the Word unites or divides is actually a paradox, which by the way, the Bible itself is full of!

Scooby_Snacks
Dec 13th 2013, 12:03 AM
Personally, I think the Word is "supposed to" bring unity among BRETHREN and division between God's people and the world.

Excellent point LandShark-

Another thing that comes to mind for me-

What does the Word of God do?

Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, so that no one may fall by the same sort of disobedience.
For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. And no creature is hidden from his sight, but all are naked and exposed to the eyes of him to whom we must give account. Hebrews 4:11-13

This living Word works on each of us. It works on those perishing, it works on those soon to be adopted by Him.

I DO believe The Word of God is meant to bring unity to The Body of Christ, as it whittles away the flesh and cuts through the denial of works that are of the self rather than of God.

David Taylor
Dec 13th 2013, 03:32 AM
The bible calls for unity among the brethren, and division from the rudiments of the world.

Curtis
Dec 13th 2013, 12:39 PM
The Word of God's purpose is to separate the believers from the unbelievers not unite them together. If the Word is preached using the traditions of man and not God then that makes the Word ineffective in it ability to separate the wheat from the chaff. Those who are his rejoice in what the Word says, those who are not his leave, and never come back, and that is what it is suppose to do.

Pro 9:8 Reprove not a scorner, lest he hate thee: rebuke a wise man, and he will love thee.


What has happened today is pastors are so afraid of letting another person (anointed of God) to teach the Word in their Church, because they do not want someone to disturb the sheep. If they real sheep than whatever a anointed servant of God says they will rejoice in it and not run off. Only the goats will hate them and never return. That is not bad but a good thing. but the wise will love him.

Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

1Co 5:6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
1Co 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

episkopos
Dec 13th 2013, 02:29 PM
Those who have chosen love as a way of life will naturally gravitate towards each other. The ones who refuse the unity in love are those who have chosen a way other than love.

Aviyah
Dec 13th 2013, 03:12 PM
I would say it inherently divides.

For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. (Heb. 4:12)

Reading the Bible SHOULD make us uncomfortable. So there will always be people who want to interpret it in ways that they feel better about, because the truth is difficult to swallow. In fact, I would be afraid if we completely agreed about all of Scripture because that would seem to suggest it had been watered down. The Sword cannot be dulled.

Tomb Escapee
Dec 13th 2013, 05:03 PM
I would say it inherently divides.

For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. (Heb. 4:12)

Reading the Bible SHOULD make us uncomfortable. So there will always be people who want to interpret it in ways that they feel better about, because the truth is difficult to swallow. In fact, I would be afraid if we completely agreed about all of Scripture because that would seem to suggest it had been watered down. The Sword cannot be dulled.

But the question is - is it any better that the Body of Christ is now fractured into thousands of denominations made up of groups of people who all seem to be seeing different and conflicting things in one singular book? This is all the more interesting to ponder when seeing what the Lord Himself says in John 17:

22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— 23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

With all of the disagreements and clashing theological viewpoints amongst Christians, and taking into consideration the above passages, is it worth considering that perhaps a lack of complete agreement about the Word amongst all believers may be very problematic in terms of the rest of the world coming to belief?

TheDivineWatermark
Dec 13th 2013, 07:03 PM
I would say it inherently divides.

For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. (Heb. 4:12)

Reading the Bible SHOULD make us uncomfortable. So there will always be people who want to interpret it in ways that they feel better about, because the truth is difficult to swallow. In fact, I would be afraid if we completely agreed about all of Scripture because that would seem to suggest it had been watered down. The Sword cannot be dulled.

It's interesting that Paul wrote (in Romans 16:17), "Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them." This is the same writer who wrote about "unity" and the primacy of "love" (which, of course, is truth also).

dan
Dec 13th 2013, 08:27 PM
Personally, I think the Word is "supposed to" bring unity among BRETHREN and division between God's people and the world.

Precisely!

Adherence to God's Word will bring us into conflict with all the evil on the earth, and all the evil to come.

Tomb Escapee
Dec 13th 2013, 08:48 PM
Precisely!

Adherence to God's Word will bring us into conflict with all the evil on the earth, and all the evil to come.

But what about all the conflict within the Church itself amongst those who zealously adhere to the Word? What about two devout theologians who have spent decades studying the Word but hold theological positions that directly oppose one another? What about the neverending OSAS/NOSAS debate? What about 20,000+ Christian denominations? Should the Church not contemplate these internal matters and how they relate to John 17:23 before condemning "unbelievers?"

Aviyah
Dec 13th 2013, 10:26 PM
But the question is - is it any better that the Body of Christ is now fractured into thousands of denominations made up of groups of people who all seem to be seeing different and conflicting things in one singular book? This is all the more interesting to ponder when seeing what the Lord Himself says in John 17:

22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— 23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

If you notice though, this "denomination" phenomena is basically confined to the United States. Christians who are being persecuted don't have the luxury of debating philosophy, they stick to the fundamentals because that is what keeps them alive.

Scooby_Snacks
Dec 13th 2013, 10:26 PM
It's interesting that Paul wrote (in Romans 16:17), "Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them." This is the same writer who wrote about "unity" and the primacy of "love" (which, of course, is truth also).

Yes. I was wondering about the scripture, and looked at a few different translations, so I have it worked out now. ;)

Curtis
Dec 14th 2013, 01:47 AM
But what about all the conflict within the Church itself amongst those who zealously adhere to the Word? What about two devout theologians who have spent decades studying the Word but hold theological positions that directly oppose one another? What about the neverending OSAS/NOSAS debate? What about 20,000+ Christian denominations? Should the Church not contemplate these internal matters and how they relate to John 17:23 before condemning "unbelievers?"

The main purpose of the Word of God is to separate the believers from the unbelievers, but like you mentioned we see a lot of division between the believers. Why is this? I will not say I have the answer to that question, but I can give my observations as to why I think it is. We all know that scripture interprets scripture as the Word tell us.....

1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

The problem is not in our understanding of scripture but in our inability to compare what is true with other truth. The OSOS crowd have hundreds of scriptures that speaks what they believe as truth, and they are right. The other side NOSAS also have hundreds of scripture that prove their side to, and they are also right, but both sides are unwilling to consider the other side. The failure is in being not able to reconcile them both together. The truth will only be found between the two after we have reconcile them. This were I believe the divisions in the Church are today, they all have the truth, but truth can only be found after we have compared spiritual things to spiritual as the Holy Ghost teaches.

ewq1938
Dec 14th 2013, 03:54 AM
The OSOS crowd have hundreds of scriptures that speaks what they believe as truth, and they are right. The other side NOSAS also have hundreds of scripture that prove their side to, and they are also right, but both sides are unwilling to consider the other side.

At least both sides are right though, huh?

Boo
Dec 14th 2013, 10:45 AM
At least both sides are right though, huh?

No, both sides have seen a method that God uses to claim children for Himself. Both sides are wrong in that they refuse to see that God does not work in always the same manner. All people whom I have come to understand in their theology admit that God does not change. Knowing that, they seem to also believe that God is stuck in a methodical rut.

If God draws one man by knocking him of his horse and blinding him, should he not do that to everyone?

If God decides to reveal to a person that He knows about her secret sins and how she is living in sin today in order to amaze her and show her that He is God, should He not also do that to everyone else?

If God, however, allows 3000 souls (out of many more who were present?) during one sermon who feel convicted to submit to Jesus and baptism on the same day, should he do that all the time?

Our problem is not the bible. Our problem is ourselves. We refuse to see things the same way. We want the truth to always be one way or the other. We want our traditional beliefs to be "the truth."

I guess we need to tell God to make up His mind, huh?

ewq1938
Dec 14th 2013, 11:01 AM
No, both sides have seen a method that God uses to claim children for Himself.

You misunderstood why I posted that.

Curtis
Dec 14th 2013, 11:57 AM
At least both sides are right though, huh?

They are right based on the scriptures they use to prove their case, but they are wrong if they discount the other scriptures that say other wise.

dan
Dec 15th 2013, 06:00 AM
But what about all the conflict within the Church itself amongst those who zealously adhere to the Word? What about two devout theologians who have spent decades studying the Word but hold theological positions that directly oppose one another? What about the neverending OSAS/NOSAS debate? What about 20,000+ Christian denominations? Should the Church not contemplate these internal matters and how they relate to John 17:23 before condemning "unbelievers?"

I think it depends on the specifics.

OSAS or the opposing view, probably will not affect one's Salvation, as long as one doesn't stray, IMO.

The denominations, generally magnify aspects of the Faith they deem most important. I don't believe that is a problem, unless you disregard something important.

Theologians that oppose one another might be a problem-for one side of them, but, I believe that God has protected His Word in the KJV.

Boo
Dec 15th 2013, 01:39 PM
I think it depends on the specifics.

OSAS or the opposing view, probably will not affect one's Salvation, as long as one doesn't stray, IMO.

The denominations, generally magnify aspects of the Faith they deem most important. I don't believe that is a problem, unless you disregard something important.

Theologians that oppose one another might be a problem-for one side of them, but, I believe that God has protected His Word in the KJV.

I believe that God has protected His Word - period. I also believe that God gave us Godly men to ensure that the most illiterate among us can read God's Word. Therefore, they have translations that they can understand.

tim_from_pa
Dec 15th 2013, 02:09 PM
And since we're all on this subject of unity or division, how many of us know what the gospel is?

I bet many think it's about us being sinners, Christ died for us, then accept him and end up in heaven, and if not, one missed the boat.

While some of that is true, that's not the gospel, but another gospel. It's about the Kingdom of God, a new governement on this earth, in which the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David in which the government shall be upon his shoulder. The church are the few called out ones now destined to rule and reign with Christ, which is why it's more blessed to be part of the first resurrection. The rest of the world are raised later, not necessarily to condemnation, as I believe a great many will also eventually be saved. But the church is the biblical concept (depicted in the feasts) of "firstfruits". Firstfruits is just that. Not all the fruits, but the first, the specifically chosen ones to carry this out, thus, many are called, but few are chosen. This short paragraph does not do the whole scheme of things justice, but it's a start.

Curtis
Dec 16th 2013, 01:38 AM
And since we're all on this subject of unity or division, how many of us know what the gospel is?

I bet many think it's about us being sinners, Christ died for us, then accept him and end up in heaven, and if not, one missed the boat.

While some of that is true, that's not the gospel, but another gospel. It's about the Kingdom of God, a new governement on this earth, in which the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David in which the government shall be upon his shoulder. The church are the few called out ones now destined to rule and reign with Christ, which is why it's more blessed to be part of the first resurrection. The rest of the world are raised later, not necessarily to condemnation, as I believe a great many will also eventually be saved. But the church is the biblical concept (depicted in the feasts) of "firstfruits". Firstfruits is just that. Not all the fruits, but the first, the specifically chosen ones to carry this out, thus, many are called, but few are chosen. This short paragraph does not do the whole scheme of things justice, but it's a start.

The ability to speak about the things of the Kingdom of God, which is the gospel is really dependent on the condition of the Church at this time. Jesus said...

Joh 3:12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things?

The Gospel of the Kingdom can not be understood by those who are babies in the Lord, it requires spiritual understanding of the mature in Christ. We the Church are not ready to eat from the meat of the truth until we come to a place were we are not debating certain things that we should have learned along time ago....

Heb 6:1 THEREFORE LET us go on and get past the elementary stage in the teachings and doctrine of Christ (the Messiah), advancing steadily toward the completeness and perfection that belong to spiritual maturity. Let us not again be laying the foundation of repentance and abandonment of dead works (dead formalism) and of the faith [by which you turned] to God,
Heb 6:2 With teachings about purifying, the laying on of hands, the resurrection from the dead, and eternal judgment and punishment. [These are all matters of which you should have been fully aware long, long ago.]
Heb 6:3 If indeed God permits, we will [now] proceed [to advanced teaching]. (AMP)

This is what we have been discussing every day over and over again. The Church is the one that determines what God can give us to learn. We need to get past the elementary teachings first, then we can go on unto perfection. Like Jesus said, "if I have told you of earthly things and we don't believe, how will we believe him if he teaches us of heavenly things?" Every congregation in every Church determines what the pastor/teacher can teach based on their spiritual age.

Tomb Escapee
Dec 16th 2013, 01:56 PM
If you notice though, this "denomination" phenomena is basically confined to the United States. Christians who are being persecuted don't have the luxury of debating philosophy, they stick to the fundamentals because that is what keeps them alive.

I would say this is mostly correct except I would more broadly specify denominationalism as being a trait of the "West." (See the fierce divide between Catholics and Protestants in Ireland, for example.) Yes, oppressed Christians in third world type of environments are certainly more concerned with survival than doctrinal correctness, but I would say they fall under the category of those who have been given little, and do not have much required of them (Luke 12). The same cannot be said for those in places (like the U.S.) where the Word is freely taught and shared without serious concerns of persecution.

Tomb Escapee
Dec 16th 2013, 02:09 PM
The main purpose of the Word of God is to separate the believers from the unbelievers, but like you mentioned we see a lot of division between the believers. Why is this? I will not say I have the answer to that question, but I can give my observations as to why I think it is. We all know that scripture interprets scripture as the Word tell us.....

1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

The problem is not in our understanding of scripture but in our inability to compare what is true with other truth. The OSOS crowd have hundreds of scriptures that speaks what they believe as truth, and they are right. The other side NOSAS also have hundreds of scripture that prove their side to, and they are also right, but both sides are unwilling to consider the other side. The failure is in being not able to reconcile them both together. The truth will only be found between the two after we have reconcile them. This were I believe the divisions in the Church are today, they all have the truth, but truth can only be found after we have compared spiritual things to spiritual as the Holy Ghost teaches.

Interesting points. And yes, it is somewhat baffling that each side of the OSAS/NOSAS dispute has dozens upon dozens of seemingly conflicting scriptures to support their cases.

I would ask how all of these disagreements and doctrinal differences in the Church might relate to the Lord's words spoken in John 9:

4 As long as it is day, we must do the works of him who sent me. Night is coming, when no one can work. 5 While I am in the world, I am the light of the world.”

Is it worth considering that perhaps, after Christ left the world, the Church that He had first established has been cast into a 2,000 year state of darkness, where no one has been able to see the truth clearly? This is a radical concept, but worth considering, especially when taking into account different parables of Jesus that imply that some sort of awakening must take place prior to the coming of His kingdom. (The parable of the Wheat and Tares in Matthew 13 and the parable of the Ten Virgins in Matthew 25 are two great examples of places where Jesus Himself implies a "sleeping" state of the Church that it must awaken from before His return.)

Tomb Escapee
Dec 16th 2013, 02:15 PM
I think it depends on the specifics.

OSAS or the opposing view, probably will not affect one's Salvation, as long as one doesn't stray, IMO.

But the key words here are "probably" and "IMO." Many feel that same way, but what if not holding the correct doctrine in the OSAS/NOSAS debate does have an effect on salvation? Where does that leave all of the participants?


The denominations, generally magnify aspects of the Faith they deem most important. I don't believe that is a problem, unless you disregard something important.

Theologians that oppose one another might be a problem-for one side of them, but, I believe that God has protected His Word in the KJV.

Again, words such as "important" are subjective, are they not? There is another thread currectly going in Bible Chat that asks about what the "essentials" of belief are, and many differing opinions are being presented. Can it at least be said that the Christian Church does not have a harmonious voice on many issues, including salvation issues?

Curtis
Dec 16th 2013, 06:36 PM
Interesting points. And yes, it is somewhat baffling that each side of the OSAS/NOSAS dispute has dozens upon dozens of seemingly conflicting scriptures to support their cases.

I would ask how all of these disagreements and doctrinal differences in the Church might relate to the Lord's words spoken in John 9:

4 As long as it is day, we must do the works of him who sent me. Night is coming, when no one can work. 5 While I am in the world, I am the light of the world.”

Is it worth considering that perhaps, after Christ left the world, the Church that He had first established has been cast into a 2,000 year state of darkness, where no one has been able to see the truth clearly? This is a radical concept, but worth considering, especially when taking into account different parables of Jesus that imply that some sort of awakening must take place prior to the coming of His kingdom. (The parable of the Wheat and Tares in Matthew 13 and the parable of the Ten Virgins in Matthew 25 are two great examples of places where Jesus Himself implies a "sleeping" state of the Church that it must awaken from before His return.)

I totally agree. In proverbs it tells us that spiritual groweth is like the morning as the sun arises and we can not see very good, until the sun fully arises. It is liken unto a man who is being awaken out of his slumber.

Pro 4:18 But the path of the righteous is like the light of dawn, which shines brighter and brighter until full day.

sa 60:1 Arise, shine, for your light has come, and the glory of the LORD has risen upon you.
Isa 60:2 For behold, darkness shall cover the earth, and thick darkness the peoples; but the LORD will arise upon you, and his glory will be seen upon you.

Rom 13:11 Besides this you know what [a critical] hour this is, how it is high time now for you to wake up out of your sleep (rouse to reality). For salvation (final deliverance) is nearer to us now than when we first believed (adhered to, trusted in, and relied on Christ, the Messiah). (AMP)

1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
1Th 5:7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they now be drunken are drunken in the night.

Eph_5:14 Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.

Since we are raised with Christ and are sitting in Heavenly in places in Him, this reality can not be fully experienced until we the Church awakens from our sleep.
We can posses something without ever experiencing it's reality until we know, and believe what we have.

Tomb Escapee
Dec 16th 2013, 07:15 PM
I totally agree. In proverbs it tells us that spiritual groweth is like the morning as the sun arises and we can not see very good, until the sun fully arises. It is liken unto a man who is being awaken out of his slumber.

Pro 4:18 But the path of the righteous is like the light of dawn, which shines brighter and brighter until full day.

sa 60:1 Arise, shine, for your light has come, and the glory of the LORD has risen upon you.
Isa 60:2 For behold, darkness shall cover the earth, and thick darkness the peoples; but the LORD will arise upon you, and his glory will be seen upon you.

Rom 13:11 Besides this you know what [a critical] hour this is, how it is high time now for you to wake up out of your sleep (rouse to reality). For salvation (final deliverance) is nearer to us now than when we first believed (adhered to, trusted in, and relied on Christ, the Messiah). (AMP)

1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
1Th 5:7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they now be drunken are drunken in the night.

Eph_5:14 Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.

Since we are raised with Christ and are sitting in Heavenly in places in Him, this reality can not be fully experienced until we the Church awakens from our sleep.
We can posses something without ever experiencing it's reality until we know, and believe what we have.

Yes, I agree that possessing something without experiencing the reality of it is all but pointless, and that has to do directly with the idea of the Church needing to awaken from its slumber.

Getting back to that idea of the Church being in a sleeping state, how important might it be for a mass-awakening to occur within Christianity before Christ's return? Here is an interesting warning from the Lord that He gave to His own disciples of His time, while also saying that it applies to everyone:

Mark 13
35 “Therefore keep watch because you do not know when the owner of the house will come back—whether in the evening, or at midnight, or when the rooster crows, or at dawn. 36 If he comes suddenly, do not let him find you sleeping. 37 What I say to you, I say to everyone: ‘Watch!’”

The Parable of the Ten Virgins also relays the importance of being awake and prepared for His coming; and we can see that those not prepared for His return (whether a part of the Church or outside of it) will not have a place in His Kingdom.

To add even more to this, we know that Paul labeled the Church as "The Body of Christ," and the Christian Church has used this term thoughout its history to refer to itself. To examine something interesting involving this, we see what is written in Acts:

Acts 2
24 But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him.

31 His soul was not left in Hades, nor did his body see decay.

Now, if we look at the Scriptures as living prophecies, we can "connect prophetic dots" dealing with the 2,000 years of darkness that have consumed the world (and the Church) since Christ ascended to heaven, by taking into account the fact that "the body of Christ" physically slept in a dark tomb (or hades).

How long has it been since He left the world in darkness? 2,000 years, of course!

What does the Bible say about a period of 1,000 years?

2 Peter 3
8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.

On what day did He physically "awaken" from His sleep in the tomb?

Luke 9
22 And he said, “The Son of Man must suffer many things and be re-jected by the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.”

I hope the picture is coming together here. We are now very close to the dawn of the "third day" since He left the world. If Christ's body slept in darkness for two days, and if His Church Body (which is now completely overrun by division and confusion) has actually been asleep for 2,000 years, what does that say about what must now happen with the Church? And, how exactly might a much-needed mass awakening come about?

Curtis
Dec 16th 2013, 08:31 PM
Yes, I agree that possessing something without experiencing the reality of it is all but pointless, and that has to do directly with the idea of the Church needing to awaken from its slumber.

Getting back to that idea of the Church being in a sleeping state, how important might it be for a mass-awakening to occur within Christianity before Christ's return? Here is an interesting warning from the Lord that He gave to His own disciples of His time, while also saying that it applies to everyone:

Mark 13
35 “Therefore keep watch because you do not know when the owner of the house will come back—whether in the evening, or at midnight, or when the rooster crows, or at dawn. 36 If he comes suddenly, do not let him find you sleeping. 37 What I say to you, I say to everyone: ‘Watch!’”

The Parable of the Ten Virgins also relays the importance of being awake and prepared for His coming; and we can see that those not prepared for His return (whether a part of the Church or outside of it) will not have a place in His Kingdom.

To add even more to this, we know that Paul labeled the Church as "The Body of Christ," and the Christian Church has used this term thoughout its history to refer to itself. To examine something interesting involving this, we see what is written in Acts:

Acts 2
24 But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him.

31 His soul was not left in Hades, nor did his body see decay.

Now, if we look at the Scriptures as living prophecies, we can "connect prophetic dots" dealing with the 2,000 years of darkness that have consumed the world (and the Church) since Christ ascended to heaven, by taking into account the fact that "the body of Christ" physically slept in a dark tomb (or hades).

How long has it been since He left the world in darkness? 2,000 years, of course!

What does the Bible say about a period of 1,000 years?

2 Peter 3
8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.

On what day did He physically "awaken" from His sleep in the tomb?

Luke 9
22 And he said, “The Son of Man must suffer many things and be re-jected by the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.”

I hope the picture is coming together here. We are now very close to the dawn of the "third day" since He left the world. If Christ's body slept in darkness for two days, and if His Church Body (which is now completely overrun by division and confusion) has actually been asleep for 2,000 years, what does that say about what must now happen with the Church? And, how exactly might a much-needed mass awakening come about?

Very cool scripture there. Another interesting point....

1Th 5:2 For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3 While people are saying, "There is peace and security," then sudden destruction will come upon them as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.
1Th 5:4 But you are not in darkness, brothers, for that day to surprise you like a thief.
1Th 5:5 For you are all children of light, children of the day. We are not of the night or of the darkness.
1Th 5:6 So then let us not sleep, as others do, but let us keep awake and be sober.

The day of the Lord will come as a thief, but those who are wide awake in Christ, that day will not come as a surprise to them because we are not the children of darkness but of light. There is a lot work to be done, and are very few workers willing to proclaim the truth as it really is to those who are still sleeping. You seem to awake to me, thank God!! I am troubled in my heart that maybe it might not be until the next generation that will fully come into this understanding, and not those here today. Just like when God took Israel and lead them into the wilderness until they died and then there children went in to posses the promise land.

Heb 3:16 For who were those who heard and yet rebelled? Was it not all those who left Egypt led by Moses?
Heb 3:17 And with whom was he provoked for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness?
Heb 3:18 And to whom did he swear that they would not enter his rest, but to those who were disobedient?
Heb 3:19 So we see that they were unable to enter because of unbelief.

Heb 4:1 Therefore, while the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us fear lest any of you should seem to have failed to reach it.
Heb 4:2 For good news came to us just as to them, but the message they heard did not benefit them, because they were not united by faith with those who listened.
Heb 4:3 For we who have believed enter that rest, as he has said, "As I swore in my wrath, 'They shall not enter my rest,'" although his works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Heb 4:6 Since therefore it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly received the good news failed to enter because of disobedience,
Heb 4:7 again he appoints a certain day, "Today," saying through David so long afterward, in the words already quoted, "Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts."
Heb 4:8 For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken of another day later on.
Heb 4:9 So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God,
Heb 4:10 for whoever has entered God's rest has also rested from his works as God did from his.
Heb 4:11 Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, so that no one may fall by the same sort of disobedience.

Tomb Escapee
Dec 16th 2013, 10:04 PM
Very cool scripture there. Another interesting point....

1Th 5:2 For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3 While people are saying, "There is peace and security," then sudden destruction will come upon them as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.
1Th 5:4 But you are not in darkness, brothers, for that day to surprise you like a thief.
1Th 5:5 For you are all children of light, children of the day. We are not of the night or of the darkness.
1Th 5:6 So then let us not sleep, as others do, but let us keep awake and be sober.

The day of the Lord will come as a thief, but those who are wide awake in Christ, that day will not come as a surprise to them because we are not the children of darkness but of light. There is a lot work to be done, and are very few workers willing to proclaim the truth as it really is to those who are still sleeping. You seem to awake to me, thank God!! I am troubled in my heart that maybe it might not be until the next generation that will fully come into this understanding, and not those here today. Just like when God took Israel and lead them into the wilderness until they died and then there children went in to posses the promise land.

Heb 3:16 For who were those who heard and yet rebelled? Was it not all those who left Egypt led by Moses?
Heb 3:17 And with whom was he provoked for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness?
Heb 3:18 And to whom did he swear that they would not enter his rest, but to those who were disobedient?
Heb 3:19 So we see that they were unable to enter because of unbelief.

Heb 4:1 Therefore, while the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us fear lest any of you should seem to have failed to reach it.
Heb 4:2 For good news came to us just as to them, but the message they heard did not benefit them, because they were not united by faith with those who listened.
Heb 4:3 For we who have believed enter that rest, as he has said, "As I swore in my wrath, 'They shall not enter my rest,'" although his works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Heb 4:6 Since therefore it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly received the good news failed to enter because of disobedience,
Heb 4:7 again he appoints a certain day, "Today," saying through David so long afterward, in the words already quoted, "Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts."
Heb 4:8 For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken of another day later on.
Heb 4:9 So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God,
Heb 4:10 for whoever has entered God's rest has also rested from his works as God did from his.
Heb 4:11 Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, so that no one may fall by the same sort of disobedience.

Thanks, I hope I am awake as I can be!

Yes, it's fitting that you bring up the wilderness journey of the Israelites, because I see that as a living prophecy of the Church Age. Of course, Christ's sacrifice 2,000 years ago was for the purpose of setting men free from various bondages, and often times when people become a Christian, they do find themselves set free from different things that had been holding them captive - just as the Israelites were set free from bondage by the sacrifice of the passover.

But it is important to remember that right after that, they were cast into a wilderness journey, and the vast majority of them died in the wilderness without entering the Promised Land alive (Paul discussed this in 1 Corinthians 10). So, if we liken the original Passover with the sacrifice of the true Passover Lamb 2,000 years ago, we can see that the vast majority of Christians have died "in the wilderness" of the Church Age, and it will only be a special and esteemed group of end-time elect (the Bride) who will have the honor of defeating death and "entering the Promisd Land alive" when Christ returns.

Curtis
Dec 17th 2013, 03:31 AM
Thanks, I hope I am awake as I can be!

Yes, it's fitting that you bring up the wilderness journey of the Israelites, because I see that as a living prophecy of the Church Age. Of course, Christ's sacrifice 2,000 years ago was for the purpose of setting men free from various bondages, and often times when people become a Christian, they do find themselves set free from different things that had been holding them captive - just as the Israelites were set free from bondage by the sacrifice of the passover.

But it is important to remember that right after that, they were cast into a wilderness journey, and the vast majority of them died in the wilderness without entering the Promised Land alive (Paul discussed this in 1 Corinthians 10). So, if we liken the original Passover with the sacrifice of the true Passover Lamb 2,000 years ago, we can see that the vast majority of Christians have died "in the wilderness" of the Church Age, and it will only be a special and esteemed group of end-time elect (the Bride) who will have the honor of defeating death and "entering the Promisd Land alive" when Christ returns.

Question, can we today enter that promise land, and if we can what can we experience while we are there?

Tomb Escapee
Dec 17th 2013, 01:49 PM
Question, can we today enter that promise land, and if we can what can we experience while we are there?

If by today, you mean while still in the flesh, I would say no. The journey is not complete until we have been perfected and are experiencing the fullness of that perfected state, which will be a born-from-above spiritual existence that is not subject to the flesh. This is a future event that is yet to happen, when the dead in Christ will be resurrected and those who live will be transformed alive:

1 Corinthians 15
50 I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

John 3
5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no man can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ 8The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

Curtis
Dec 17th 2013, 03:15 PM
If by today, you mean while still in the flesh, I would say no. The journey is not complete until we have been perfected and are experiencing the fullness of that perfected state, which will be a born-from-above spiritual existence that is not subject to the flesh. This is a future event that is yet to happen, when the dead in Christ will be resurrected and those who live will be transformed alive:

1 Corinthians 15
50 I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

John 3
5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no man can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ 8The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

Good reply, I guess I should have asked about our rebirth human spirit that according to scripture says...

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

What are some of your thoughts concerning the scripture that tell us that our citizenship is in Heaven, and it is from there we are awaiting the appearing of the Lord Jesus.
Can we sense and or experience this Kingdom in which we have been translated into while still living in our physical bodies?

Tomb Escapee
Dec 17th 2013, 03:41 PM
Good reply, I guess I should have asked about our rebirth human spirit that according to scripture says...

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

What are some of your thoughts concerning the scripture that tell us that our citizenship is in Heaven, and it is from there we are awaiting the appearing of the Lord Jesus.
Can we sense and or experience this Kingdom in which we have been translated into while still living in our physical bodies?

I would say minimally, like a buried seed, but not really. The only thing that matters to us in that regard is the actual experience. We are not experiencing a heavenly existence while still in the flesh. We are still subject to the contrasts of duality (good and evil, pleasure and pain, life and death, etc).

Those passages from Ephesians seem to be speaking from a viewpoint that lies outside of time; a perspective that we don't have access to now, as we are still in an existence that is subject to time; so whether or not we have been seated in the heavenlies from outside of time doesn't really matter to us until we get to experience it.

As I'm sure you would probably agree, not everyone who assumes Ephesians 2:6 applies to them will actually experience it, as the Lord has taught in the Gospels that many will be surprised to find out that they will be kept from the Kingdom. So again, it is only when we fully experience a new imperishable existence that we can know for sure that such passages do apply to us. As of now, we are still in the darkness and awaiting the revelation of the true Light returning to the world.

John 9
4 As long as it is day, we must do the works of him who sent me. Night is coming, when no one can work. 5 While I am in the world, I am the light of the world.”

TheDivineWatermark
Dec 17th 2013, 10:39 PM
Question, can we today enter that promise land, and if we can what can we experience while we are there?

My understanding is that "the promised land" (for those who are "the Church which is His body," i.e. us) is not a type of "heaven," but of "possessing our possessions" in the here and now (all that it is possible to possess at present [everything that came with that "salvation package"]... though "glorification," for example, is yet future). Of course, we don't grasp it all at once, the moment we are saved.

As I see it, "the promised land" is also a type of the Millennial Kingdom (for "Israel" and "the nations" who will, at that future time, enter the kingdom) which will commence at the time of His Second Coming to the earth ("there remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God," Hebrews 4:9... and I believe the MK will be that "7th day" rest [i.e. 7th millennium], during the reign of Christ on earth).

JMHO :D

Tomb Escapee
Dec 17th 2013, 11:26 PM
My understanding is that "the promised land" (for those who are "the Church which is His body," i.e. us) is not a type of "heaven," but of "possessing our possessions" in the here and now (all that it is possible to possess at present [everything that came with that "salvation package"]... though "glorification," for example, is yet future). Of course, we don't grasp it all at once, the moment we are saved.

As I see it, "the promised land" is also a type of the Millennial Kingdom (for "Israel" and "the nations" who will, at that future time, enter the kingdom) which will commence at the time of His Second Coming to the earth ("there remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God," Hebrews 4:9... and I believe the MK will be that "7th day" rest [i.e. 7th millennium], during the reign of Christ on earth).

JMHO :D

I partially agree with what you said, particularly about the Millenial Kingdom. 2,000 years ago, the Passover Lamb offered the sacrifice that enabled men to be set free from various types of bondage. Since then, however, Christians throughout the Church Age have not realized that they have been in the wilderness, sleeping in the darkness of the tomb, unable to see the Truth clearly. Hence, the massive division and disagreement that has overrun the Christian Church, with everyone seeing and believing different things with each being convinced that he is right. The time is now arriving for a mass-awakening within the Church, which must happen before the coming of Christ in His Kingdom (the Millennial Kingdom, where those who will reign will be translated into a glorified state - the Promised Land at the end of the wilderness journey). Those who refuse to accept that they have been blind and asleep (those who refuse to awaken) will miss out on the Kingdom!

All of this is alluded to throughout the Gospels by the Lord Himself:

Mark 13
35 “Therefore keep watch because you do not know when the owner of the house will come back—whether in the evening, or at midnight, or when the rooster crows, or at dawn. 36 If he comes suddenly, do not let him find you sleeping. 37 What I say to you, I say to everyone: ‘Watch!’”

John 9
4 As long as it is day, we must do the works of him who sent me. Night is coming, when no one can work. 5 While I am in the world, I am the light of the world.”

He has been absent from the world for 2,000 years, and it has been "night." The Christian Church has not been able to do the necessary "work" to bring about the revelation of the true Kingdom. The Church must humble itself and awaken to this fact.

Again, it should be clear to Christians that an awakening must take place prior to His coming:

Matthew 25
1 At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom.

5 The bridegroom was a long time in coming, and they all became drowsy and fell asleep.

6 “At midnight [the end of the Church Age] the cry rang out: ‘Here’s the bridegroom! Come out [come out of the darkened TOMB!] to meet him!’ 7 “Then all the virgins woke up and trimmed their lamps.


Matthew 13
24 Jesus told them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. [This is the original Church that Christ established before leaving the world in darkness.] 25 But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. [When Christ departed, darkness set in, and everyone has been asleep.]

TheDivineWatermark
Dec 18th 2013, 12:23 AM
I partially agree with what you said, particularly about the Millenial Kingdom. 2,000 years ago, the Passover Lamb offered the sacrifice that enabled men to be set free from various types of bondage. Since then, however, Christians throughout the Church Age have not realized that they have been in the wilderness, sleeping in the darkness of the tomb, unable to see the Truth clearly. Hence, the massive division and disagreement that has overrun the Christian Church, with everyone seeing and believing different things with each being convinced that he is right. The time is now arriving for a mass-awakening within the Church, which must happen before the coming of Christ in His Kingdom (the Millennial Kingdom, where those who will reign will be translated into a glorified state - the Promised Land at the end of the wilderness journey). Those who refuse to accept that they have been blind and asleep (those who refuse to awaken) will miss out on the Kingdom!

All of this is alluded to throughout the Gospels by the Lord Himself:

Mark 13
35 “Therefore keep watch because you do not know when the owner of the house will come back—whether in the evening, or at midnight, or when the rooster crows, or at dawn. 36 If he comes suddenly, do not let him find you sleeping. 37 What I say to you, I say to everyone: ‘Watch!’”

John 9
4 As long as it is day, we must do the works of him who sent me. Night is coming, when no one can work. 5 While I am in the world, I am the light of the world.”

He has been absent from the world for 2,000 years, and it has been "night." The Christian Church has not been able to do the necessary "work" to bring about the revelation of the true Kingdom. The Church must humble itself and awaken to this fact.

Again, it should be clear to Christians that an awakening must take place prior to His coming:

Matthew 25
1 At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom.

5 The bridegroom was a long time in coming, and they all became drowsy and fell asleep.

6 “At midnight [the end of the Church Age] the cry rang out: ‘Here’s the bridegroom! Come out [come out of the darkened TOMB!] to meet him!’ 7 “Then all the virgins woke up and trimmed their lamps.


Matthew 13
24 Jesus told them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. [This is the original Church that Christ established before leaving the world in darkness.] 25 But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. [When Christ departed, darkness set in, and everyone has been asleep.]

Well, then I guess we would disagree here on a few points: I believe most of these passages refer to the time of His Second Coming to the earth (but at that time, "the Church which is His body" [all those who have trusted in His finished work alone for salvation, from Pentecost to the rapture] will already have been given glorified bodies and will be coming back WITH HIM)... all of Mark 13 is about the (future) tribulation period in the years immediately preceding His Second Coming to the earth ("the Church which is His body" will not be here during that time period), Matthew 25:1-13nasb is not about "the bride/wife [singular]" (and the "wedding"), but about "the 10 bridesmaids" (and "the wedding supper/feast") and the bridegroom (Jesus) is not coming to marry 10 bridesmaids, or even 5 (so also is not about "the Church"), and Matthew 13:24-30 ("the kingdom of [the] heaven[s]") is not about "the Church" but about "the kingdom" of which "the field is the world"... if it were about "the Church" then it would not have been said, "let both grow together until the harvest" (i.e. refrain from judging) because if it were a question of "the Church," as such, discipline would be obligatory: "Do ye not judge them that are within [the church]? But those who are outside, God judges. REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES." 1 Corinthians 5:12-13nasb).

So, as I see it, those passages are about His Second Coming to the earth, but "the Church which is His body" will, by that time, have already been "caught up" and "changed" (glorified) and will be returning WITH HIM. The Church is ONE body (ONE bride), no part of it will be left out. "Christendom," on the other hand... (all those who have not trusted in Christ's finished work alone, for salvation, who come in His name and "profess" but do not "possess His LIFE" and thus are not vitally connected with Him, WILL be... to go through the tribulation period on the earth). Of course, we (the Church) are told, "let us not sleep as do others: but let us watch and be sober... [and] putting on... for an helmet, 'the hope of salvation' [that is, an eschatological salvation, aka the rapture]." 1 Thessalonians 5:6, 8. This is what "we" are to understand, know, and anticipate.

dan
Dec 18th 2013, 01:54 AM
I believe that God has protected His Word - period. I also believe that God gave us Godly men to ensure that the most illiterate among us can read God's Word. Therefore, they have translations that they can understand.

Yes, and if you ever develop a different angle on that please let me know. Our last discussion didn't convince me.

While we're at it:

God Of Abraham, if either Boo or myself is mistaken, may we be visited with a dream or vision to bring us together. In Jesus' Name we pray, amen.

dan
Dec 18th 2013, 02:14 AM
But the key words here are "probably" and "IMO." Many feel that same way, but what if not holding the correct doctrine in the OSAS/NOSAS debate does have an effect on salvation? Where does that leave all of the participants?

If it's possible to screw something up, man is capable, so 'always' and 'never' are not good bets, IMO.

The Bible says after you have been saved do not sin, for there are no more sacrifices. In another part of the NT it claims that bringing others to Christ covers a multitude of sins.

What argument troubles you. Perhaps I can show you a scripture.


Again, words such as "important" are subjective, are they not? There is another thread currectly going in Bible Chat that asks about what the "essentials" of belief are, and many differing opinions are being presented. Can it at least be said that the Christian Church does not have a harmonious voice on many issues, including salvation issues?

Subjective? Yes.

If the denominations agreed there would still only be the Catholic Church. So, yes, we are not harmonious, and going against the Bible will get some denominations into trouble with Christ, I'm sure:

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. (Matt 7:21)

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? (Matt 7:22)

And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. (Matt 7:23)

Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: (Matt 7:24)

Curtis
Dec 18th 2013, 03:33 AM
My understanding is that "the promised land" (for those who are "the Church which is His body," i.e. us) is not a type of "heaven," but of "possessing our possessions" in the here and now (all that it is possible to possess at present [everything that came with that "salvation package"]... though "glorification," for example, is yet future). Of course, we don't grasp it all at once, the moment we are saved.

As I see it, "the promised land" is also a type of the Millennial Kingdom (for "Israel" and "the nations" who will, at that future time, enter the kingdom) which will commence at the time of His Second Coming to the earth ("there remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God," Hebrews 4:9... and I believe the MK will be that "7th day" rest [i.e. 7th millennium], during the reign of Christ on earth).

JMHO :D,

I myself believe when we became born again we were translated into that promised land by God's Glory. The only reason most if not all Christians are not experiencing this Kingdom is because they are asleep. The reason they are asleep is because they do not believe scriptures that tell us so. No body can experience any thing in God's Kingdom beyond their faith. What each of us are experiencing today is exactly according to what we know and believe. Just think about this, If we are in Christ, then were ever Jesus is so are we, and were ever we are Jesus is with us. We have no choice, and he has no choice. This is reality. How can this be? It is because of the Glory Jesus gave to us. "The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
What makes God one?

Joh 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
Joh 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
Joh 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
Joh 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

God's Glory is what makes God one, and that Glory was given unto us so we would one with God. Not only does that Glory make us one with God, but it also causes us to be were he is no matter what happens, we can never be separate from his presence in His Kingdom. If we do not believe this we will never experience it in this life.
Jesus, during his earthly ministry was never separated from his Father even while he walked on earth. He said, ....

Joh_3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Jesus claimed out of his own mouth that not only was he on earth doing the will of his Father, but he was also still in heaven with his Father in him.
The Father was not only in Heaven sitting on his throne but he was also in Christ reconciling the world unto himself. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit operating in two different places at the same time. This was only possible by His Glory that is not subject to any time, space, age or physical place. For as he is so are we in this world. We also live in two different places at the same time, in the physical and the spiritual. We are told to come boldly to the throne room of grace, and that throne room is not in this world. Being able to have fellowship with the saints in light requires faith, not hope. No faith is required to believe Jesus is coming back someday for his Church.That is all hope based. Anything that deals with the future is hope. Faith deals only with the here and now, or what God has already given to us from the beginning. The Church has no problems with hope, what it has problems with is faith. We think hope is faith, but they are not the same. Hope has to do with future events, and faith has to do with what has already happened. I find it very hard to get other believers to see the difference. The Lord has already given unto all things that pertain unto life and godliness, he has already blessed us all spiritual blessings in Christ, he has already raised us up into his spiritual Kingdom. We should only be waiting for the resurrection of the dead, so we might know the redemption our our bodies. Jesus is not coming back to take us somewhere because we are already were he is. The resurrection of the DEAD is referred to our physical bodies not spirit. , The word, "dead" means. "corpse" Jesus is coming back to get bodies so they can be changed like unto his body.

Gadgeteer
Dec 18th 2013, 05:24 AM
The Word of God brings unity to those who accept it. It brings division in the world as that acceptance happens.

Our problem among believers is that we let our ideology and doctrine divide us constantly rather than bringing unity.

But what do we do when two people read the same passage, and have two opposite understandings?

Most everyone here begins with the presumption that 2Tim3:16 applies to the New Testament --- "All Scripture is inspired by God (God-breathed) and suitable for reproof, correction, equipping and training in righteousness".

One person thinks waterbaptism is part of salvation (there is no receiving of the Spirit without dipping).
Another person thinks all the verses aligning "water" with "salvation", really assert calling on JESUS does it.
(And that the "one baptism" in Eph4:5 has nothing to do with water; the first insists it does.)

One person perceives a truly saved person can become unsaved --- another person perceives REAL salvation cannot fail.

One person perceives GOD makes the choice of who is saved and who is condemned, before Creation even began; another person perceives that God makes it possible for EVERYONE to be saved and overcomes sinfulness enough that He can therefore judge each on his/her decision.


But each of these persons persists in his or her perception which existed before the conversation.

Most believe God is "not a God of confusion" (1Cor14:33); so how do we justify conflicting views? Are there topics which CANNOT be brought to resolution, Scripture is vague/confusing/interpretable?


Boo, I agree with you that we "should not be divided" --- in threads sometimes people get angry with each other, and the world judges JESUS by our actions. There is a time to agree, and a time to disagree; would it not be a desirable skill to disagree with kindness and love, to give brothers and sisters the "right to be wrong" even as they give US the same right?

One hundred percent of people here would agree that none of us can live in fornication, drunkenness, carousing, thieving, murdering, or any other numerous sins and expect to waltz through the Pearly Gates. What then is the balance between "earnestly contending for the faith", and "holding fast the faithful word which is in accordance with the teaching, so that he will be able both to exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict" (Jude3, Titus1:8) --- and embodying LOVE between brothers without which we CERTAINLY will never see Jesus (1Jn4:20)?

May we all strive for that balance!

Boo
Dec 18th 2013, 11:07 AM
But what do we do when two people read the same passage, and have two opposite understandings?

Most everyone here begins with the presumption that 2Tim3:16 applies to the New Testament --- "All Scripture is inspired by God (God-breathed) and suitable for reproof, correction, equipping and training in righteousness".

One person thinks waterbaptism is part of salvation (there is no receiving of the Spirit without dipping).
Another person thinks all the verses aligning "water" with "salvation", really assert calling on JESUS does it.
(And that the "one baptism" in Eph4:5 has nothing to do with water; the first insists it does.)

One person perceives a truly saved person can become unsaved --- another person perceives REAL salvation cannot fail.

One person perceives GOD makes the choice of who is saved and who is condemned, before Creation even began; another person perceives that God makes it possible for EVERYONE to be saved and overcomes sinfulness enough that He can therefore judge each on his/her decision.


But each of these persons persists in his or her perception which existed before the conversation.

Most believe God is "not a God of confusion" (1Cor14:33); so how do we justify conflicting views? Are there topics which CANNOT be brought to resolution, Scripture is vague/confusing/interpretable?


Boo, I agree with you that we "should not be divided" --- in threads sometimes people get angry with each other, and the world judges JESUS by our actions. There is a time to agree, and a time to disagree; would it not be a desirable skill to disagree with kindness and love, to give brothers and sisters the "right to be wrong" even as they give US the same right?

One hundred percent of people here would agree that none of us can live in fornication, drunkenness, carousing, thieving, murdering, or any other numerous sins and expect to waltz through the Pearly Gates. What then is the balance between "earnestly contending for the faith", and "holding fast the faithful word which is in accordance with the teaching, so that he will be able both to exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict" (Jude3, Titus1:8) --- and embodying LOVE between brothers without which we CERTAINLY will never see Jesus (1Jn4:20)?

May we all strive for that balance!

Most people believe what they have been taught. It is that teaching that blinds eyes to truth.

And yet, all of those who may disagree on the details and mechanics of the spiritual work of God are still brothers and sisters. When the debates all fade away, do we all still follow Christ and live the life that He wants us to live? Do I still love my brother, and can we all still work for God's Kingdom and Glory?

Disagreements don't have to bring division. Only arrogance and pride do that. When I believe that I alone have the truth and that anyone not seeing things my way is less spiritual than I am; then I bring division. Lord, may it never be so.

One thing that we should all learn from this is that the Holy Spirit regenerates us and brings us into the Kingdom. If we are there, we don't really need to wonder at the details of how God made that happen and how He established the timing. I can continue to see truth as it appears to me, and so can everyone else. When it comes to the true gospel, I dare say that we have no conflict. We need only to be thankful for our adoption and our family. When we finish with our thanks, we should then strive to go about our Master's work.

Tomb Escapee
Dec 18th 2013, 02:35 PM
Well, then I guess we would disagree here on a few points: I believe most of these passages refer to the time of His Second Coming to the earth (but at that time, "the Church which is His body" [all those who have trusted in His finished work alone for salvation, from Pentecost to the rapture] will already have been given glorified bodies and will be coming back WITH HIM)... all of Mark 13 is about the (future) tribulation period in the years immediately preceding His Second Coming to the earth ("the Church which is His body" will not be here during that time period), Matthew 25:1-13nasb is not about "the bride/wife [singular]" (and the "wedding"), but about "the 10 bridesmaids" (and "the wedding supper/feast") and the bridegroom (Jesus) is not coming to marry 10 bridesmaids, or even 5 (so also is not about "the Church"), and Matthew 13:24-30 ("the kingdom of [the] heaven[s]") is not about "the Church" but about "the kingdom" of which "the field is the world"... if it were about "the Church" then it would not have been said, "let both grow together until the harvest" (i.e. refrain from judging) because if it were a question of "the Church," as such, discipline would be obligatory: "Do ye not judge them that are within [the church]? But those who are outside, God judges. REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES." 1 Corinthians 5:12-13nasb).

So, as I see it, those passages are about His Second Coming to the earth, but "the Church which is His body" will, by that time, have already been "caught up" and "changed" (glorified) and will be returning WITH HIM. The Church is ONE body (ONE bride), no part of it will be left out. "Christendom," on the other hand... (all those who have not trusted in Christ's finished work alone, for salvation, who come in His name and "profess" but do not "possess His LIFE" and thus are not vitally connected with Him, WILL be... to go through the tribulation period on the earth). Of course, we (the Church) are told, "let us not sleep as do others: but let us watch and be sober... [and] putting on... for an helmet, 'the hope of salvation' [that is, an eschatological salvation, aka the rapture]." 1 Thessalonians 5:6, 8. This is what "we" are to understand, know, and anticipate.

What you say here, however, contributes to the overall point I’m making and even the question that is asked by topic’s title. You and many others believe that the Church will be raptured away before the end-time tribulation. But millions of other Christians who are just as devout do not believe in a “pre-trib” rapture. And of course there are other positions held by other Christians on the same topic. How can you “prove” that you are any more correct than them, or vice versa?

All of Christianity basically uses the same book as its source for Truth, but within Christianity there are multitudes of contradicting views – with everyone convinced that their particular views are correct. Shouldn’t this be a reason for contemplation?

Again, Christ – the King – said that darkness would set in when He left, and that true light only shines in the world when He is present in it. Can’t we see how this relates to the state of Israel after Joshua (Jesus = Joshua) had left them, and there was no King?

Judges 17
6 In those days Israel had no king; everyone did what was right in his own eyes.

Does Christianity not match this description precisely? Everyone within it believes they are correct with their theological beliefs, even though they conflict with one another.

Not sure if you saw one of my earlier posts that compared the time that Jesus’ body slept in the dark tomb with the Body of Christ being entombed in darkness since He left the world. 2,000 years later, we are nearing the dawn of the “third day,” which should be an awakening (or a resurrection) of the Church. BUT – this awakening cannot happen until the masses within the Church realize and confess that they have been unquestionably, 100% blind while the King has been away. This requires true humility and the willingness to forsake all previously held doctrines and beliefs if necessary, but the Lord Himself says that it is necessary to begin to truly see (awaken):

John 9
39 For judgment I have come into the world so that the blind will see, and those who see will become blind.

Tomb Escapee
Dec 18th 2013, 02:37 PM
If it's possible to screw something up, man is capable, so 'always' and 'never' are not good bets, IMO.

The Bible says after you have been saved do not sin, for there are no more sacrifices. In another part of the NT it claims that bringing others to Christ covers a multitude of sins.

What argument troubles you. Perhaps I can show you a scripture.

It’s not any particular argument or theological position that is troubling. What I find worthy of concern is that Christians do not seem to take any time to contemplate the fact that they all use the same book (albeit different translations of it) but hold various contradicting doctrines and theological positions, and yet they all consider themselves united as “The Body of Christ.”


Subjective? Yes.

If the denominations agreed there would still only be the Catholic Church. So, yes, we are not harmonious, and going against the Bible will get some denominations into trouble with Christ, I'm sure:

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. (Matt 7:21)

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? (Matt 7:22)

And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. (Matt 7:23)

Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: (Matt 7:24)

There’s no doubt that many who had felt secure will be surprised that they will not be a part of the Kingdom, but I want to point out the phrase that you used – “going against the Bible.” The fact is, anyone with a theological position that does not agree with another believes the other one is “going against the Bible.” Isn’t that the case? Pre-tribbers think post-tribbers are going against the Bible, and vice versa. Those who believe water baptism is necessary for salvation think those who disagree are going against the Bible and vice versa. The OSAS believers think the NOSAS believers are going against the Bible and vice versa. And etc, etc etc…

This all relates to what I said in my previous post – Christianity is like Israel in the days when there was no king. Everyone is simply believing what he considers right in his own eyes. Because of that, the Body of Christ is fractured and divided and this looks foolish to the unbelieving world, and it is the primary reason why the world remains in a state of unbelief (John 17:23). So, there is a mass repentance that is much needed within the Church.

Gadgeteer
Dec 18th 2013, 04:27 PM
Most people believe what they have been taught. It is that teaching that blinds eyes to truth. And yet, it's common to read on debates statements like, "I used to believe as you do, until I ____" (matured/was-taught-by-the-Spirit/learned-more/etcetera). So it's not necessarily distant past teaching.

What's wrong with us, that our current teaching does not have the power to convict?


And yet, all of those who may disagree on the details and mechanics of the spiritual work of God are still brothers and sisters. When the debates all fade away, do we all still follow Christ and live the life that He wants us to live? Do I still love my brother, and can we all still work for God's Kingdom and Glory?Here is where I have some "radical ideas" --- I see salvation as a black-n-white issue; either we belong to Jesus completely, or not at all. I don't see such a thing as "carnal Christian". So if one of us is not following Christ and living the life He wants, if we do not love brothers and sisters, then we're not saved. Period.


Disagreements don't have to bring division.Strongly agree.


Only arrogance and pride do that.Hadn't thought in terms of "pride/arrogance"; true that each of us hold specific doctrines, but is it pride that prevents us from seeing Scriptures which conflict what we hold?

Perhaps you're right.


When I believe that I alone have the truth and that anyone not seeing things my way is less spiritual than I am; then I bring division. Lord, may it never be so.Amen. In "giving others the right to be wrong", even as THEY give US the right to be "wrong", we all admit that what each individual believes is between himself/herself and God. We are not commanded to make anyone believe anything; only to love people, and tell them about Jesus --- and to encourage each other not to "become hardened by the deceitfulness of sin to falling away from God" (Heb3:8-14).


One thing that we should all learn from this is that the Holy Spirit regenerates us and brings us into the Kingdom. If we are there, we don't really need to wonder at the details of how God made that happen and how He established the timing. I can continue to see truth as it appears to me, and so can everyone else. When it comes to the true gospel, I dare say that we have no conflict.Sometimes we do (have conflict). I perceive "regeneration" is not a done deal, per verses like Eph4:22-24; do we not have to abide in regeneration, even as we abide in Jesus? Have you ever heard anyone say "backslidden-but-saved"? Sorry, "backslidden" by definition is walking in sin --- 1Jn3:7-8 is clear.

He who walks in sin, does not walk in Jesus/salvation.


We need only to be thankful for our adoption and our family. When we finish with our thanks, we should then strive to go about our Master's work.

Amen again. We encourage one another, admonishing towards repentance without condemning; encouraging towards abiding without provoking. Loving without causing strife. In all of these, we glorify Him whom we serve.

Can we achieve all that, embodying 1Jn4:20 sufficient that the world --- who sits in judgment of us, judging JESUS by us --- will see enough of Him in us to want what we have?

I believe with all my heart the answer is an emphatic "yes"!

:-)

luigi
Dec 18th 2013, 06:49 PM
All of Christianity basically uses the same book as its source for Truth, but within Christianity there are multitudes of contradicting views – with everyone convinced that their particular views are correct. Shouldn’t this be a reason for contemplation?
John 9

Tomb Escapee,
Along with the Holy Spirit providing Christians illumination on the Word, there is also the devil who masquerades as an angel of light, providing Christians false illumination on the Word; thus the countless interpretations on the meaning of scriptures.

Scooby_Snacks
Dec 18th 2013, 07:08 PM
Tomb Escapee,
Along with the Holy Spirit providing Christians illumination on the Word, there is also the devil who masquerades as an angel of light, providing Christians false illumination on the Word; thus the countless interpretations on the meaning of scriptures.

Hmm does that mean that Christians lead by the Spirit of God can be influenced to read His Word by Satan?
Or if that is the case, which views are influenced by Satan? (we are talking about doctrines that are continually argued/not agreed upon)

That is how I read the statement luigi, so perhaps you could clarify this view with scripture. :)

(I might add that I do not believe Satan has to work very hard to influence us directly. The Holy Spirit does not betray us, but our flesh does)

luigi
Dec 18th 2013, 07:14 PM
Hmm does that mean that Christians lead by the Spirit of God can be influenced to read His Word by Satan?
Or if that is the case, which views are influenced by Satan? (we are talking about doctrines that are continually argued/not agreed upon)

That is how I read the statement luigi, so perhaps you could clarify this view with scripture. :)

(I might add that I do not believe Satan has to work very hard to influence us directly. The Holy Spirit does not betray us, but our flesh does)
What I'm saying Scooby Snacks is that the voice many assume is the Holy Spirit, sometimes is the foe instead, masquerading as the illuminator.

Need to leave now, back in a few hours.

Scooby_Snacks
Dec 18th 2013, 07:58 PM
What I'm saying Scooby Snacks is that the voice many assume is the Holy Spirit, sometimes is the foe instead, masquerading as the illuminator.

Need to leave now, back in a few hours.

I'm not even sure this is the thread to hear out your explanation of how a Spirit Lead Christian is deceived by Satan. :hmm:

Tomb Escapee
Dec 18th 2013, 08:27 PM
Tomb Escapee,
Along with the Holy Spirit providing Christians illumination on the Word, there is also the devil who masquerades as an angel of light, providing Christians false illumination on the Word; thus the countless interpretations on the meaning of scriptures.


This is an excellent and important point! It provides a chance to draw further comparisons between the Israelites’ wilderness experience and the Church Age of Christianity. Although I’m honestly not sure how many are still following along with this reasoning.

Hebrews 2
14 Since the children have flesh and blood, He shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of the one holding the power of death—that is, the devil

Many Christians feel that the devil was fully defeated by Christ’s work 2,000 years ago, but an honest analysis shows that this is surely not the case. He is roaming the earth and doing what he does as well as he ever has – deceiving men and taking them to their graves. This is because he also holds the power of physical death – which is an enemy that corrupts the Kingdom of God and that must be defeated.

1 Corinthians 15
26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

What happened to the Israelites in the wilderness? The same thing that has happened to all Christians throughout the Church Age – they have all died without seeing the coming of the Kingdom (entering the Promised Land).

John 6
49 Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, yet they died.

What was it that was lifted up, or exalted, in the wilderness?

John 3
14 Just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up

While Christ has been absent from the world, it is the devil, the serpent, that has ruled over the Church (even as he afflicted Job during Job’s “wilderness” experience) during the wilderness Church Age, and taken all Christians to the grave. The Church must awaken to this fact and repent so that death can finally be defeated and we can now enter the Promised Land without being defeated by the enemy and ultimately perishing into the dust.

Scooby_Snacks
Dec 18th 2013, 08:34 PM
This is an excellent and important point! It provides a chance to draw further comparisons between the Israelites’ wilderness experience and the Church Age of Christianity. Although I’m honestly not sure how many are still following along with this reasoning.

Hebrews 2
14 Since the children have flesh and blood, He shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of the one holding the power of death—that is, the devil

Many Christians feel that the devil was fully defeated by Christ’s work 2,000 years ago, but an honest analysis shows that this is surely not the case. He is roaming the earth and doing what he does as well as he ever has – deceiving men and taking them to their graves. This is because he also holds the power of physical death – which is an enemy that corrupts the Kingdom of God and that must be defeated.

1 Corinthians 15
26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

What happened to the Israelites in the wilderness? The same thing that has happened to all Christians throughout the Church Age – they have all died without seeing the coming of the Kingdom (entering the Promised Land).

John 6
49 Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, yet they died.

What was it that was lifted up, or exalted, in the wilderness?

John 3
14 Just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up

While Christ has been absent from the world, it is the devil, the serpent, that has ruled over the Church (even as he afflicted Job during Job’s “wilderness” experience) during the wilderness Church Age, and taken all Christians to the grave. The Church must awaken to this fact and repent so that death can finally be defeated and we can now enter the Promised Land without being defeated by the enemy and ultimately perishing into the dust.

Christ is absent from the World?
The Devil has or is currently ruling over the Church and taken all Christians to the grave?
Clarify through scripture please.

Tomb Escapee
Dec 18th 2013, 09:16 PM
Christ is absent from the World?
The Devil has or is currently ruling over the Church and taken all Christians to the grave?
Clarify through scripture please.

There can be no doubt that when Christ ascended to heaven, He left the world in darkness. And this is by way of His own words:

John 9
4 As long as it is day, we must do the works of him who sent me. Night is coming, when no one can work. 5While I am in the world, I am the light of the world.”

The King Himself has said that true light only exists in the world when He is present. Since the King has gone away, Christians have been stumbling around in the darkness, not realizing that they have been blind. With countless denominations and clashing theological positions, the Church Age has been a repeat of the state of Israel in the days when it had no King:

Judges 17
6 In those days there was no king in Israel; every man did what was right in his own eyes.

It really isn’t necessary to verify with scripture the fact that satan has taken all Christians to the grave – all Christians have obviously died! None have defeated death and entered the Promised Land alive, which can only happen after a mass-awakening/resurrection of the Church.

Just as Christ’s body slept in a dark tomb before resurrecting, so has the Body of Christ been sleeping in the darkness for 2,000 years without realizing it. All have been blind while having the false idea of being able to see. This should be most obvious just by the fact all Christians are convinced they are correct in their various theological positions, even though they all clash with one another.

TheDivineWatermark
Dec 18th 2013, 10:05 PM
There can be no doubt that when Christ ascended to heaven, He left the world in darkness. And this is by way of His own words:

John 9
4 As long as it is day, we must do the works of him who sent me. Night is coming, when no one can work. 5While I am in the world, I am the light of the world.”

The King Himself has said that true light only exists in the world when He is present. Since the King has gone away, Christians have been stumbling around in the darkness, not realizing that they have been blind. With countless denominations and clashing theological positions, the Church Age has been a repeat of the state of Israel in the days when it had no King:

Judges 17
6 In those days there was no king in Israel; every man did what was right in his own eyes.

It really isn’t necessary to verify with scripture the fact that satan has taken all Christians to the grave – all Christians have obviously died! None have defeated death and entered the Promised Land alive, which can only happen after a mass-awakening/resurrection of the Church.

Just as Christ’s body slept in a dark tomb before resurrecting, so has the Body of Christ been sleeping in the darkness for 2,000 years without realizing it. All have been blind while having the false idea of being able to see. This should be most obvious just by the fact all Christians are convinced they are correct in their various theological positions, even though they all clash with one another.

It doesn't seem to me that when Christ ascended, He left us in complete darkness. Consider the following verses:

"[The risen Christ's "job description" for Paul] To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me." Acts 26:18

"That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles." Acts 26:23




"The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light." Romans 13:12

"For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ." 2 Corinthians 4:6

"For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light" Ephesians 5:8

"Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness." 1 Thessalonians 5:5

"But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light" 1 Peter 2:9

"We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts" 2 Peter 1:19

"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." 1 John 1:7

"Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth." 1 John 2:8

"He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him. But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes." 1 John 2:10-11


[and, interestingly...]

"That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world" Philippians 2:15

Tomb Escapee
Dec 18th 2013, 10:22 PM
It doesn't seem to me that when Christ ascended, He left us in complete darkness. Consider the following verses:

"[The risen Christ's "job description" for Paul] To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me." Acts 26:18

"That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles." Acts 26:23




"The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light." Romans 13:12

"For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ." 2 Corinthians 4:6

"For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light" Ephesians 5:8

"Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness." 1 Thessalonians 5:5

"But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light" 1 Peter 2:9

"We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts" 2 Peter 1:19

"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." 1 John 1:7

"Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth." 1 John 2:8

"He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him. But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes." 1 John 2:10-11

You make mention of some viable passages here, that seem to create a bit of conundrum in "light" of Jesus' words about the coming night. First, I'd like to point out that many of those are from the epistles that the apostles had written after Christ had left the world. So, just as with the entire span of the Church Age and all Christians, those very apostles were not aware that they were already in darkness and were unable to see clearly.

If one might object to that notion, I suggest that it becomes most clear that the writers of the NT epistles were blinded to what was happening in the bigger picture by the sheer fact that nearly all of them were convinced that Christ would be establishing His Kingdom in their lifetimes - which was 2,000 years ago. See:

1 Corinthians 10:11
1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
Hebrews 1:1-2
Hebrews 9:26
1 Peter 4:7
James 5:3
1 John 2:28

These passages all imply that those writers were blind to what was happening on the larger scale, and that there had to be a time of darkness, followed by a mass resurrection, before the coming of the Kingdom.

I think it is highly important to hold fast to the words of the Lord and King Himself, who said that the world - including the Church - would fall into darkness after His departure.

TheDivineWatermark
Dec 18th 2013, 10:48 PM
You make mention of some viable passages here, that seem to create a bit of conundrum in "light" of Jesus' words about the coming night. First, I'd like to point out that many of those are from the epistles that the apostles had written after Christ had left the world. So, just as with the entire span of the Church Age and all Christians, those very apostles were not aware that they were already in darkness and were unable to see clearly.

If one might object to that notion, I suggest that it becomes most clear that the writers of the NT epistles were blinded to what was happening in the bigger picture by the sheer fact that nearly all of them were convinced that Christ would be establishing His Kingdom in their lifetimes - which was 2,000 years ago. See:

1 Corinthians 10:11
1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
Hebrews 1:1-2
Hebrews 9:26
1 Peter 4:7
James 5:3
1 John 2:28

These passages all imply that those writers were blind to what was happening on the larger scale, and that there had to be a time of darkness, followed by a mass resurrection, before the coming of the Kingdom.

I think it is highly important to hold fast to the words of the Lord and King Himself, who said that the world - including the Church - would fall into darkness after His departure.

It seems to me that Paul had a fairly good grasp of the fact that "the day of the Lord [trib]" would come on the earth (which "day of the Lord" includes the [future] 7-year trib, His Second Coming to the earth, and the earthly Millennial Kingdom... which "day" starts "the evening before" i.e. at sundown[dark]. "Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light." Amos 5:18.) It's also clear that Paul tells the Thessalonians that we (the Church, "children of light, and children of the day") will have no part in the starting point of "the day of the Lord [the trib]," which he takes two letters to explain.

However, I agree that 1 Timothy 4:1 says, "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith [that body of truth], giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils..." and "that in the last days perilous times shall come..." 2 Timothy 3:1-9, with some "having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof, from such turn away."



Oh, and I added to my last post after you quoted it :D :


[and, interestingly...]

"That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world" Philippians 2:15

Tomb Escapee
Dec 18th 2013, 11:22 PM
It seems to me that Paul had a fairly good grasp of the fact that "the day of the Lord [trib]" would come on the earth (which "day of the Lord" includes the [future] 7-year trib, His Second Coming to the earth, and the earthly Millennial Kingdom... which "day" starts "the evening before" i.e. at sundown[dark]. "Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light." Amos 5:18.) It's also clear that Paul tells the Thessalonians that we (the Church, "children of light, and children of the day") will have no part in the starting point of "the day of the Lord [the trib]," which he takes two letters to explain.

However, I agree that 1 Timothy 4:1 says, "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith [that body of truth], giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils..." and "that in the last days perilous times shall come..." 2 Timothy 3:1-9, with some "having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof, from such turn away."

As with all scriptural things, there are varying passages that give seemingly contradicing implications. I didn't have time a bit ago to actually post all of those epistle passages, but I think the following make it pretty clear that at least for a time, the apostles were under the impression that they would not taste death before Christ's coming:

1 Corinthians 10
11 These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the culmination of the ages has come.

1 Thessalonians 4
15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

Hebrews 1
1 In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things

Hebrews 9
26Otherwise Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages

1 Peter 4
7 The end of all things is near.

1 John 2
28 And now, dear children, continue in him, so that when he appears we may be confident and unashamed before him at his coming.

I really don't want to get into a "this passage vs. that passage" situation, because that will just result in a never ending debate. But I do think the above verses undoubtedly show that the NT epistle writers certainly did NOT anticipate that 2,000 years later, the world would still be awaiting the coming of the Lord. If you can accept that, then it shouldn't be much of a stretch to accept that they were, in fact, in darkness when they authored their epistles.

In fact, in all my years of studying various theological viewpoints and scriptural analysis, I have never come across an interpretation of John 9:4 that is more sufficient than what the is the simplest and most obvious interpretation - the world has been in darkness since Christ left the world, and no one has been able to work - just as He said.

While that may be uncomfortable to accept, when that IS accepted, many things start becoming clear, such as, how can so many Christians have so many contradicting theological viewpoints while all being convinced they are correct and that God has "shown them the truth?" The answer becomes obvious if one is willing to accept that we have been in a time of darkness when no one can truly see or work.

Scooby_Snacks
Dec 18th 2013, 11:23 PM
There can be no doubt that when Christ ascended to heaven, He left the world in darkness. And this is by way of His own words:

John 9
4 As long as it is day, we must do the works of him who sent me. Night is coming, when no one can work. 5While I am in the world, I am the light of the world.”

The King Himself has said that true light only exists in the world when He is present. Since the King has gone away, Christians have been stumbling around in the darkness, not realizing that they have been blind. With countless denominations and clashing theological positions, the Church Age has been a repeat of the state of Israel in the days when it had no King:

Matthew 18:19
“Again, truly I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything they ask for, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven.
For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them.”

Jesus is not telling them this only works while He is with them. :idea:

Your interpretation of this scripture paraphrased (correct me if I am wrong) is that when Jesus was crucified, buried and risen, He left the earth and nothing else happened through The Holy Spirit from that day forward.

Do you believe Jesus is completely separate from the Father and The Holy Spirit?

By your interpretation: The Holy Spirit never entered into those who believe in Him and so His works are no longer done here.
Why or how would anyone obey God, desire to be or do good, to pray or preach the Gospel without being born again through Him?
(because the way you are interpreting it is night NOW and there are no longer God works in progress through His Spirit and his children here.)





Judges 17
6 In those days there was no king in Israel; every man did what was right in his own eyes.

It really isn’t necessary to verify with scripture the fact that satan has taken all Christians to the grave – all Christians have obviously died! None have defeated death and entered the Promised Land alive, which can only happen after a mass-awakening/resurrection of the Church.

Yes there is. Satan has not taken all Christians to the grave. All Christians have not obviously died.
All true Christians were dead in sin before they were born again.
When I came to Faith I died and came alive in Him (spiritually) I was born again, not born dead but ALIVE.
I was already dead in my sin before that-- been there done that.

You can choose not to answer my questions, but that does not mean I won't keep asking them.

Satan has those in the world held captive, but those who are not of this world do not enter into the equation.





Just as Christ’s body slept in a dark tomb before resurrecting, so has the Body of Christ been sleeping in the darkness for 2,000 years without realizing it. All have been blind while having the false idea of being able to see. This should be most obvious just by the fact all Christians are convinced they are correct in their various theological positions, even though they all clash with one another.

If the church is blind and dead, and you are a part of His Body, that would mean you are also blind and dead, so how can a blind dead man have revelation from God of scripture, since it can only be spiritually discerned?

Much of the division is because we see through a glass dimly, is this somehow interprets to giving people the right to unjustly judge others because they follow a different "doctrine".

The essentials in doctrine are however in existence and agreed upon by those who are in His Body.

We are not re-living the O.T.

Tomb Escapee
Dec 18th 2013, 11:44 PM
Matthew 18:19
“Again, truly I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything they ask for, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven.
For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them.”

Jesus is not telling them this only works while He is with them. :idea:

Your interpretation of this scripture paraphrased (correct me if I am wrong) is that when Jesus was crucified, buried and risen, He left the earth and nothing else happened through The Holy Spirit from that day forward.

Do you believe Jesus is completely separate from the Father and The Holy Spirit?

By your interpretation: The Holy Spirit never entered into those who believe in Him and so His works are no longer done here.
Why or how would anyone obey God, desire to be or do good, to pray or preach the Gospel without being born again through Him?
(because the way you are interpreting it is night NOW and there are no longer God works in progress through His Spirit and his children here.)

I'm glad you brought this up. I do believe the Holy Spirit went to work at Pentecost, after Christ had left the world, just as Acts tells us. But Acts also tells us something else:

Acts 4
32 All the believers were one in heart and mind.

We see here that after the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, all the believers were united in everything, which is obviously not the situation in the Church today. So, what can we point toward that shows us when darkness was about to begin its 2,000 year reign?

Acts 8
1 And Saul approved of their killing him (Stephen). On that day a great persecution broke out against the church in Jerusalem, and all except the apostles were scattered throughout Judea and Samaria.

Do you want to know when division first began in the Church? It was right then, at Stephen's stoning, with Saul's/Paul's approval.



Yes there is. Satan has not taken all Christians to the grave. All Christians have not obviously died.
All true Christians were dead in sin before they were born again.
When I came to Faith I died and came alive in Him (spiritually) I was born again, not born dead but ALIVE.
I was already dead in my sin before that-- been there done that.

You can choose not to answer my questions, but that does not mean I won't keep asking them.

I speak of physical death. Satan has brought all Christians down to the dust in death, in spite of the Lord saying that those who truly know Him would not physically die:

John 6
48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, yet they [PHYSICALLY] died. 50 But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which anyone may eat and not [PHYSICALLY] die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever.

Christians have become far too complacent in accepting physical death, in spite of the fact that many Bible passages present it as something that is completely undesirable.


If the church is blind and dead, and you are a part of His Body, that would mean you are also blind and dead, so how can a blind dead man have revelation from God of scripture, since it can only be spiritually discerned?

Because we are now at the time of the resurrection, when the eyes of some awakening ones are beginning to be opened to the fact that the Body of Christ has been entombed and asleep. It has been approximately 2,000 years since the Church was cast into darkness, meaning we are now close to the dawn of the "third day" - which must become a mass awakening/resurrection of the Church! Any who remain sleeping upon His return will not be in the Kingdom, as He has said.



Much of the division is because we see through a glass dimly, is this somehow interprets to giving people the right to unjustly judge others because they follow a different "doctrine".

The essentials in doctrine are however in existence and agreed upon by those who are in His Body.

We are not re-living the O.T.

There is actually a thread going on this forum now about the essentials, and when reading through it, it becomes clear that their is not a consistent thread of unity and agreement about the essentials amongst those in the Body. This again comes down to whether or not one wishes to accept having been entombed in darkness, and if they will want to flee the tomb!

Scooby_Snacks
Dec 19th 2013, 12:38 AM
I'm glad you brought this up. I do believe the Holy Spirit went to work at Pentecost, after Christ had left the world, just as Acts tells us. But Acts also tells us something else:

Acts 4
32 All the believers were one in heart and mind.

We see here that after the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, all the believers were united in everything, which is obviously not the situation in the Church today.
So, what can we point toward that shows us when darkness was about to begin its 2,000 year reign?

I have to admit I'm not sure what 2,000 years has to do with anything I am not studied in end times stuff.
I just know Christ 2nd coming has not occurred yet. Now as far as some being asleep-- probably so, and I pray about this for myself encourage others to remain steadfast as well.


Acts 8
1 And Saul approved of their killing him (Stephen). On that day a great persecution broke out against the church in Jerusalem, and all except the apostles were scattered throughout Judea and Samaria.

Do you want to know when division first began in the Church? It was right then, at Stephen's stoning, with Saul's/Paul's approval.

If at the moment in Acts 4 they were in agreement, it was a great moment! It shows the unity of the Body through The Holy Spirit is possible!
The flesh brings division. (Satan just watches and giggles)
Division could have started anytime, I do not see the importance of this--but this scripture quoted is not concrete to your idea IMO.




I speak of physical death. Satan has brought all Christians down to the dust in death, in spite of the Lord saying that those who truly know Him would not physically die:

John 6
48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, yet they [PHYSICALLY] died. 50 But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which anyone may eat and not [PHYSICALLY] die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever.

Christians have become far too complacent in accepting physical death, in spite of the fact that many Bible passages present it as something that is completely undesirable.

And if I believe this O.T. scripture is speaking of spiritual death (not physical) because they lacked the Faith to enter into the Promised Land, and that physical death is either from the fall or just the way it is..and what the scripture speaks of is eternal life after we shed this natural body--what then?





Because we are now at the time of the resurrection, when the eyes of some awakening ones are beginning to be opened to the fact that the Body of Christ has been entombed and asleep. It has been approximately 2,000 years since the Church was cast into darkness, meaning we are now close to the dawn of the "third day" - which must become a mass awakening/resurrection of the Church! Any who remain sleeping upon His return will not be in the Kingdom, as He has said.

But this does not answer how are people still coming to Faith if the church is asleep?
Who will hear the Gospel if someone does not preach? What did He give us gifts to build each other up if we are unable to use them?
I believe the Holy Spirit is still at work in His Body here on the earth. If you have not experienced this, I do pray that you do.





There is actually a thread going on this forum now about the essentials, and when reading through it, it becomes clear that their is not a consistent thread of unity and agreement about the essentials amongst those in the Body. This again comes down to whether or not one wishes to accept having been entombed in darkness, and if they will want to flee the tomb!

Yeah, I started the thread, but not many want to discuss what we agree on.
Mostly what we do here on the forum is discuss things and debate.

I rep'd Boo's post(s) because I think he really has a great grasp of the subject of this thread.

Not everyone agrees on certain essentials either, but there are enough that all will agree on to say if this not agreed with, it is impossible for you to be in the Body.
The thread started because I was concerned about what is to be taught as absolute doctrine, and what should be not be taught from the pulpit. False teaching must be distinguished from the truth or the yet unknown in some way consistent with scripture.
I am all for unity, and so getting off the beaten trail here disagreeing with you in this thread and someone else in another is just the way it is for me today I guess.

luigi
Dec 19th 2013, 12:49 AM
I'm not even sure this is the thread to hear out your explanation of how a Spirit Lead Christian is deceived by Satan. :hmm:
How do you explain different people with different opinions on what scriptures relate, stating that the Holy Spirit revealed the meaning to them?
Would not one or more have been deceived by Satan disguising himself as an angel of light, providing false illumination to those he deceives?

luigi
Dec 19th 2013, 01:13 AM
It really isn’t necessary to verify with scripture the fact that satan has taken all Christians to the grave – all Christians have obviously died! None have defeated death and entered the Promised Land alive, which can only happen after a mass-awakening/resurrection of the Church.
I see this mass awakening/resurrection of the Church in our future correlating with Rev 12:9-11, when Satan, the deceiver of the whole world is cast down from heaven and is then unable to accuse the brethren before God, thereby indicating Satans influence and deception of the brethren at that point gone.
This would also mean that the brethren at that time would be of like mind on what all scriptures mean.
Such would also represent the mystery of God being finished and completely known by the brethren when the seventh angel is about to sound in Rev 10:7.

Scooby_Snacks
Dec 19th 2013, 03:14 AM
How do you explain different people with different opinions on what scriptures relate, stating that the Holy Spirit revealed the meaning to them?
Would not one or more have been deceived by Satan disguising himself as an angel of light, providing false illumination to those he deceives?

False teachers (looking like the light) and Christians disagreeing on (what is perhaps) non-essential doctrine are two different things to me.
That's why I always ask people if what they believe (doctrine) helps them and how? Testimony would reveal it's usefulness to their walk.

I believe if a person thinks The Holy Spirit (and nothing other than that) revealed something to them in scripture, they will ask God to confirm it and it will be confirmed.
It will point to Jesus and His Glory.
I will ask for Him to confirm something that I thought came from Him concerning an area of scripture a while back today since it has been on my mind, and I will let you know what happens.

Satan doesn't want us to get along. You are one of the most peaceful individuals on this site, and I have said something like that before.
I don't always agree with you, but that much I can say is true.
Satan is deceptive, but I think he gets too much credit (and a foot in with connection to sin) and that The Holy Spirit and His Word help discern light from darkness.
We erect idols and don't even know it sometimes. Idols of knowledge perhaps are an issue that cause pride and wanting to protect them from falling shattering our hope in them.

I believe God intends to bring us into unity.

Scooby_Snacks
Dec 19th 2013, 01:56 PM
Tomb Escapee stated:
This again comes down to whether or not one wishes to accept having been entombed in darkness, and if they will want to flee the tomb!

Not sure if the conversation has ended or if you are busy-- I did find one scripture I believe supports the church not being in darkness, but in the light, but the warning is there, awaken any who sleep!
Be sober. Be diligent. Don't stop believing even if the mountains are falling and evil is all around. Build one another up.
May He purify our hearts, entailing every thing that means to desire it, that our deeds may be pure, our hands cleansed of sin. That we might know and be Your love.


1 Thessalonians: 5:1-11
Now concerning the times and the seasons, brothers, you have no need to have anything written to you.
For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.

While people are saying, “There is peace and security,” then sudden destruction will come upon them as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

But you are not in darkness, brothers, for that day to surprise you like a thief.
For you are all children of light, children of the day. We are not of the night or of the darkness.
So then let us not sleep, as others do, but let us keep awake and be sober.

For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, are drunk at night.
But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and for a helmet the hope of salvation.
For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us so that whether we are awake or asleep we might live with him.
Therefore encourage one another and build one another up, just as you are doing.

Anyone can have a tendency to be critical.
The scripture that came to mind for me last night the most throughout conversations on this site was this:

Psalm 18: pasted here verses 25-30

With the merciful you show yourself merciful;
with the blameless man you show yourself blameless;
with the purified you show yourself pure;
and with the crooked you make yourself seem tortuous.

For you save a humble people,
but the haughty eyes you bring down.
For it is you who light my lamp;
the Lord my God lightens my darkness.

For by you I can run against a troop,
and by my God I can leap over a wall.
This God—his way is perfect;
the word of the Lord proves true;
He is a shield for all those who take refuge in him.

I still believe the church has Watchmen assigned to them. Are they always doing their job? Some probably are, some probably are not. Will God in all His loving mercy and sovereignty do everything He chooses to awaken all of the members of His Body currently and graft in those still missing, bringing all into unity?
I believe He will. There cannot be a Body without a functioning liver, or without fingernails to protect and guard the tenderness of the fingertips and be complete.

Some may disagree. As far as falling away, there is no reason not to ask Him to keep you every way possible.
I might believe I am eternally secure but that doesn't mean I haven't talked to Him about it as I have been lead to and listened for His warnings taking heed.
This is very much a part of my eternal security, and I am meant to take what He says to heart and to Him that I might persevere.
He knows my heart, what I will and will not do. He sees it is all finished. I get to walk it in faith.
He is my hope, even if at times I cannot see two inches in from of my eyes.

Now I have encompassed an area of division within the church with my solution to it's polarity.
Because the terms of our written language sometimes do not allow for the whole of any matter, believing in good to prevail as it already has in His eyes in my today keeps me afloat in this hope.

Tomb Escapee
Dec 19th 2013, 02:04 PM
No, the conversation hasn't ended! :) I'll reply to this and the previous posts throughout the next few hours.

TrustGzus
Dec 19th 2013, 02:32 PM
Ignorance of the Word of God I can see bringing division among believers. Being informed by the Word of God could increase division with the world but becoming more informed in the Word should increase unity in the church.

luigi
Dec 19th 2013, 03:30 PM
False teachers (looking like the light) and Christians disagreeing on (what is perhaps) non-essential doctrine are two different things to me.
That's why I always ask people if what they believe (doctrine) helps them and how? Testimony would reveal it's usefulness to their walk.

I believe if a person thinks The Holy Spirit (and nothing other than that) revealed something to them in scripture, they will ask God to confirm it and it will be confirmed.
It will point to Jesus and His Glory.
I will ask for Him to confirm something that I thought came from Him concerning an area of scripture a while back today since it has been on my mind, and I will let you know what happens.

Satan doesn't want us to get along. You are one of the most peaceful individuals on this site, and I have said something like that before.
I don't always agree with you, but that much I can say is true.
Satan is deceptive, but I think he gets too much credit (and a foot in with connection to sin) and that The Holy Spirit and His Word help discern light from darkness.
We erect idols and don't even know it sometimes. Idols of knowledge perhaps are an issue that cause pride and wanting to protect them from falling shattering our hope in them.

I believe God intends to bring us into unity.
And where would false teachers looking like the light derive their false teaching? From themselves?

And if Christians disagree on doctrine (whether you classify it as essential or not), would this not mean that the Holy Spirit did not provide enlightening to at least one of these Christians, and that his or her erroneous view of doctrine would then have been influenced by the false enlightener (Satan)? Unless, of course you are one of those who believe erroneous interpretations of scriptures derives from ones own deductions, without Satan having played any part in deceiving those individuals.

You are correct that we erect idols and don't even know it sometimes.
According to Websters dictionary, an idol can represent: "any person or thing on which we strongly set our affections; that to which we are excessively, often improperly, attached."
By this definition, any of the works of our hands (i.e., money, cars, homes, clothing, etc.) to which we set our affections (love) on, would constitute idolatry.

I too believe God will bring together the brethren in unity after the great shake out, described in Hebrews 12:26, at which time those who fall away from the faith on earth will have great enmity towards those who do not fall away (Luke 21:16), while in heaven, the devil and his angels will be cast/shaken out (Rev 12:9).

Tomb Escapee
Dec 19th 2013, 04:08 PM
I have to admit I'm not sure what 2,000 years has to do with anything I am not studied in end times stuff.
I just know Christ 2nd coming has not occurred yet. Now as far as some being asleep-- probably so, and I pray about this for myself encourage others to remain steadfast as well.

The primary thing that anyone needs to know about the 2,000 years is what the Bible tells us about the span of 1,000 years:

Psalm 90
4 A thousand years in your sight are like a day that has just gone by, or like a watch in the night.

2 Peter 3
8But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.

Not once, but twice, the Bible tells us this, so we should understand that this is an important calculation. However, the importance of it has never been truly revealed until now. As Christ left the world in darkness 2,000 years ago, the Body of Christ has been “in the tomb” for 2 days. When did the physical body of Christ exit the tomb? Of course, it was early in the third day, which is the time that we are very near to right now!

The physical entombment and resurrection of Jesus’ body was a living prophecy of what has happened, and what must now happen, with His Church Body – it must awaken and exit the tomb of darkness that it has been in!



If at the moment in Acts 4 they were in agreement, it was a great moment! It shows the unity of the Body through The Holy Spirit is possible!
The flesh brings division. (Satan just watches and giggles)
Division could have started anytime, I do not see the importance of this--but this scripture quoted is not concrete to your idea IMO.

Technically, at that time, the believers were not the “Body of Christ.” Remember, that is a term that was introduced by Paul after his repentance, and when the believers were united like that, he was still known as Saul and persecuting them.

But I do agree that the flesh brings division, and the fact that the Body of Christ is divided into literally thousands of denominations shows that, as a whole, it is ruled and driven by the flesh. But here is the problem– those in the Body of Christ refuse to admit that they are divided, even though they ARE. Denominationalism IS division. This is one of the aspects of entombment that the Church must awaken to and repent of.


And if I believe this O.T. scripture is speaking of spiritual death (not physical) because they lacked the Faith to enter into the Promised Land, and that physical death is either from the fall or just the way it is..and what the scripture speaks of is eternal life after we shed this natural body--what then?

Point taken, but the fact is only two people who had escaped Egypt survived to enter the Promised Land. The other 99.99 percent of those who escaped physically died in the wilderness. So when the Lord referenced them dying in the wilderness, it is by no means crazy to accept that He is talking about physical death. And if He is talking about physical death in verse 49, it is only logical that He is contrasting that in verse 50 by talking about OVERCOMING physical death and ascending alive:

John 6
48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, yet they died. 50 But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which anyone may eat and not die.

Remember, “manna” means “what is it?” During this 2,000 year wilderness journey of the Church, Christians have been eating the bread of life without truly knowing Him. If they truly knew Him, we would not see all of the division and disagreement that exits. They have been eating the “what is it?” And they have all died. The Church must now awaken and come to truly know Christ so those within it can defeat death by exiting the wilderness and entering the Promised Land.


But this does not answer how are people still coming to Faith if the church is asleep?
Who will hear the Gospel if someone does not preach? What did He give us gifts to build each other up if we are unable to use them?
I believe the Holy Spirit is still at work in His Body here on the earth. If you have not experienced this, I do pray that you do.

In a previous post, I mentioned that coming to faith, or becoming a Christian by accepting the sacrifice of Christ (the Passover Lamb), is only the first step on the journey towards salvation. Do you believe that accepting Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross can set someone free from bondage – sin, addiction, etc? Of course, many have become Christians and seen their lives change for the better and have been set free from bondage. But guess what – the Israelites were also set free from their bondage by the death of their Passover lamb, BUT did they enter the Promised Land immediately? No! They first had to go through a wilderness journey.

Not only is this the case for individuals, but the Church as a whole. 2,000 years ago, the Passover Lamb physically died to set men free and physically rose again. Then shortly after, He left the world in darkness, disappearing from sight even as he disappeared from sight when He was put in the tomb. Now, from a larger perspective, He can only resurrect through His Church awakening and fleeing the tomb that has held it captive. Is this all starting to come together for you? His physical body slept in darkness, and His Church Body has been sleeping in darkness. His physical body resurrected, and now His Church Body must resurrect.


Yeah, I started the thread, but not many want to discuss what we agree on.
Mostly what we do here on the forum is discuss things and debate.

I rep'd Boo's post(s) because I think he really has a great grasp of the subject of this thread.

Not everyone agrees on certain essentials either, but there are enough that all will agree on to say if this not agreed with, it is impossible for you to be in the Body.
The thread started because I was concerned about what is to be taught as absolute doctrine, and what should be not be taught from the pulpit. False teaching must be distinguished from the truth or the yet unknown in some way consistent with scripture.
I am all for unity, and so getting off the beaten trail here disagreeing with you in this thread and someone else in another is just the way it is for me today I guess.

But do you see, if we were not trapped in darkness, there would be no need to start such a thread to get everyone’s opinions on the essentials, because they would be obvious! And again, if two people disagree on certain essentials, each one will insist that the other is not truly a part of the Body. Both will be convinced that they are the one who is right, and there is no way to prove who is right and who is wrong. Why? Because the King is not here and everyone is simply doing what is right in his own eyes.

Judges 17
6 In those days there was no king in Israel; everyone did what was right in his own eyes.

Tomb Escapee
Dec 19th 2013, 04:11 PM
I see this mass awakening/resurrection of the Church in our future correlating with Rev 12:9-11, when Satan, the deceiver of the whole world is cast down from heaven and is then unable to accuse the brethren before God, thereby indicating Satans influence and deception of the brethren at that point gone.
This would also mean that the brethren at that time would be of like mind on what all scriptures mean.
Such would also represent the mystery of God being finished and completely known by the brethren when the seventh angel is about to sound in Rev 10:7.

Good insights, this could very well be the case! Of course Revelation is highly difficult and I won’t pretend to have a firm grasp on much of it. I try to only talk of things I’m certain about, and that is mainly that the Church has been in darkness and led by carnality and there must be an awakening and repentance, which will actually pave the way for Christ to return in His Kingdom. It is up to the Church itself to bring about His “resurrection” from His absence from the world.

Tomb Escapee
Dec 19th 2013, 04:13 PM
Not sure if the conversation has ended or if you are busy-- I did find one scripture I believe supports the church not being in darkness, but in the light, but the warning is there, awaken any who sleep!
Be sober. Be diligent. Don't stop believing even if the mountains are falling and evil is all around. Build one another up.
May He purify our hearts, entailing every thing that means to desire it, that our deeds may be pure, our hands cleansed of sin. That we might know and be Your love.


1 Thessalonians: 5:1-11
Now concerning the times and the seasons, brothers, you have no need to have anything written to you.
For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.

While people are saying, “There is peace and security,” then sudden destruction will come upon them as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

But you are not in darkness, brothers, for that day to surprise you like a thief.
For you are all children of light, children of the day. We are not of the night or of the darkness.
So then let us not sleep, as others do, but let us keep awake and be sober.

For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, are drunk at night.
But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and for a helmet the hope of salvation.
For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us so that whether we are awake or asleep we might live with him.
Therefore encourage one another and build one another up, just as you are doing.

Anyone can have a tendency to be critical.
The scripture that came to mind for me last night the most throughout conversations on this site was this:

Psalm 18: pasted here verses 25-30

With the merciful you show yourself merciful;
with the blameless man you show yourself blameless;
with the purified you show yourself pure;
and with the crooked you make yourself seem tortuous.

For you save a humble people,
but the haughty eyes you bring down.
For it is you who light my lamp;
the Lord my God lightens my darkness.

For by you I can run against a troop,
and by my God I can leap over a wall.
This God—his way is perfect;
the word of the Lord proves true;
He is a shield for all those who take refuge in him.

I still believe the church has Watchmen assigned to them. Are they always doing their job? Some probably are, some probably are not. Will God in all His loving mercy and sovereignty do everything He chooses to awaken all of the members of His Body currently and graft in those still missing, bringing all into unity?
I believe He will. There cannot be a Body without a functioning liver, or without fingernails to protect and guard the tenderness of the fingertips and be complete.

Some may disagree. As far as falling away, there is no reason not to ask Him to keep you every way possible.
I might believe I am eternally secure but that doesn't mean I haven't talked to Him about it as I have been lead to and listened for His warnings taking heed.
This is very much a part of my eternal security, and I am meant to take what He says to heart and to Him that I might persevere.
He knows my heart, what I will and will not do. He sees it is all finished. I get to walk it in faith.
He is my hope, even if at times I cannot see two inches in from of my eyes.

Now I have encompassed an area of division within the church with my solution to it's polarity.
Because the terms of our written language sometimes do not allow for the whole of any matter, believing in good to prevail as it already has in His eyes in my today keeps me afloat in this hope.

In reference to the passages from 1 Thessalonians, I must again point out (as I did in a post on the previous page of this topic) that the writers of the NT epistles were already in the darkness that had set in after Christ left the world. This is undeniable by the fact that they were all convinced that they were in the “last times” and that Christ would be returning in the their lifetimes. They were oblivious to what was being worked out on the larger scale. They were oblivious to the fact that the Body of Christ was to be entombed in darkness for 2,000 years before awakening on the third day, even as Christ’s body was entombed in darkness and rose on the third day. Their misunderstanding of the death and resurrection of the Body of Christ over 2,000 years is represented by the fact that Jesus’ own disciples did not understand what He was talking about when He prophesied about His own death and resurrection:

Luke 18
31 Jesus took the Twelve aside and told them, “We are going up to Jerusalem, and everything that is written by the prophets about the Son of Man will be fulfilled. 32 He will be delivered over to the Gentiles. They will mock him, insult him and spit on him; 33 they will flog him and kill him. On the third day he will rise again.”

34 The disciples did not understand any of this. Its meaning was hidden from them, and they did not know what he was talking about.

It is important to know that the historical events recorded in the Bible are also living prophecies.

So, while the NT writers may have been trying to encourage their audience by telling them they were not in darkness, it was because those writers did not realize they already WERE in darkness. It is the same with the Church today – the Body of Christ believes it is not in darkness and can see clearly, but if this were truly the case, there would not exist the division and contradictions throughout the Church that exits. One can not awaken until he realizes he has been asleep, and one cannot truly see until he realizes he has been blind.

John 9
39Jesus said, “For judgment I have come into this world, so that the blind will see and those who see will become blind.”

luigi
Dec 19th 2013, 04:20 PM
Good insights, this could very well be the case! Of course Revelation is highly difficult and I won’t pretend to have a firm grasp on much of it. I try to only talk of things I’m certain about, and that is mainly that the Church has been in darkness and led by carnality and there must be an awakening and repentance, which will actually pave the way for Christ to return in His Kingdom. It is up to the Church itself to bring about His “resurrection” from His absence from the world.
As long as you keep studying the Word, you will continue to find correlations with other scriptures.
Much of what appears in Revelation, also appears in the book of Daniel, as well as other books of the bible.
And yes, the Church has been in a downward spiral of darkness ever since the Lord left.
Nevertheless, it now appears that awareness of this truth among the brethren does seem to be bringing the Light about again.

Obfuscate
Dec 19th 2013, 04:28 PM
Everyone wants to be their own Pope. They trust that the Holy Spirit works through them individually while denying it has worked through the church collectively for 2,000 years, despite the promises Christ made to the church and his statements about the Holy Spirit leading to truth. That's why most Protestants do not teach and preach the same things as the early church and why we have 40,000+ denominations. The reformation started to correct certain clear abuses in the western church and tried to do it from within, until Luther and his followers were excommunicated, therefore leading them to essentially excommunicate Rome. It was never to create a new form of do it yourself Christianity where no one can agree on anything, this board being a perfect example.

1 Corinthians 1:10 - I appeal to you, brothers and sisters, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another in what you say and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly united in mind and thought.

John 17:23 - I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

bunnymuldare
Dec 19th 2013, 04:53 PM
Curtis,
Quote:
Luk 12:51 Do you think that I have come to give peace on earth? No, I tell you, but rather division.
Luk 12:52 For from now on in one house there will be five divided, three against two and two against three.
Luk 12:53 They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against her daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law."


Back up just one tiny verse and it is the key to the whole chapter.
Luke 12:50 But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!
If a preacher, teacher doesn't have that, they have no business teaching. If they miss that one step, pastoring becomes nothing more than crowd control. They need to sit under the Master until it be accomplished.

Now look at the first verse of the chapter. It confirms what I am saying.
In the mean time, when there were gathered together an innumerable multitude of people, insomuch that they trode one upon another, he began to say unto his disciples first of all, Beware ye of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy. 2 For there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; neither hid, that shall not be known. 3 Therefore whatsoever ye have spoken in darkness shall be heard in the light; and that which ye have spoken in the ear in closets shall be proclaimed upon the housetops.
So where is unity found? It is between the baptized born again sanctified, justified sinner, living in gratitude for what God has done and who is basking in God's good, loving, and holy presence. They are the ones begging to be used, begging to be sent, begging to be taught -- not the Pharisee who lives under the law and imposes that law on others, and whose rabbinical garments stretch themselves from one side of the sidewalk to the other so that people in passing have no choice but to bow and turn to the side to allow him to pass by.

This is what sanctified sinners hear in this chapter:
12:23 The life is more than meat, and the body is more than raiment. 24 Consider the ravens: for they neither sow nor reap; which neither have storehouse nor barn; and God feedeth them: how much more are ye better than the fowls? 25 And which of you with taking thought can add to his stature one cubit?..
27 Consider the lilies how they grow: they toil not, they spin not; and yet I say unto you, that Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. 28 If then God so clothe the grass, which is to-day in the field, and to-morrow is cast into the oven; how much more will he clothe you, O ye of little faith?
29 And seek not ye what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink, neither be ye of doubtful mind. For all these things do the nations of the world seek after: and your Father knoweth that ye have need of these things.
31BUT RATHER seek ye the kingdom of God; and all these things shall be added unto you.
32
fear
not,
little
flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.

When it comes from God no one can take it away from them. Little wonder then that it took so long for the Bible to be put into print so that every man could read it for themselves. Jesus wants to love us all the time.

bunnymuldare
Dec 19th 2013, 04:59 PM
Obfuscate

John 17:23 - I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

Good word.

Tomb Escapee
Dec 19th 2013, 06:52 PM
As long as you keep studying the Word, you will continue to find correlations with other scriptures.
Much of what appears in Revelation, also appears in the book of Daniel, as well as other books of the bible.
And yes, the Church has been in a downward spiral of darkness ever since the Lord left.
Nevertheless, it now appears that awareness of this truth among the brethren does seem to be bringing the Light about again.

Yes, as you say, scripture tends to interpret itself by looking at scripture elsewhere; and also through the historical events being looked at as living prophecy.

For example, not only did Christ's body sleep in a dark tomb, just as His Church Body has been doing, but He was also blindfolded and told to prophesy while blinded; this is exactly what the Body of Christ has done! Attempted to prophesy while in a state of blindness.

And the crown of thorns on His head - what does Jesus Himself say thorns represent?

Mark 4
18 Still others, like seed sown among thorns, hear the word; 19 but the worries of this life, the deceitfulness of wealth and the desires for other things come in and choke the word, making it unfruitful.

Just as Jesus wore the crown of thorns, so is the Body of Christ ruled by a carnal mindset that is more preoccupied with the worries of this life and the "desires for other things" to become truly spiritually fruitful. That is why everyone in the Body of Christ, over 2,000 years, has perished into the dust without entering the Promised Land alive - they have worn the crown of thorns, just like He did.

Everything that happened to Christ during His afflictions has been happening to His Church Body. That is why it is so important that those within the Body wake up and realize they have been entombed so that they can escape the tomb and ascend, just as He did. Those who choose not to wake up and flee will unfortunately be left in the tomb where they have chosen to stay - and miss out on the Millennial Kingdom. We can turn back to Revelation to see this fact:

Revelation 20
4They [the first resurrection] came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

Curtis
Dec 19th 2013, 06:53 PM
Curtis,
Quote:
Luk 12:51 Do you think that I have come to give peace on earth? No, I tell you, but rather division.
Luk 12:52 For from now on in one house there will be five divided, three against two and two against three.
Luk 12:53 They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against her daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law."


Back up just one tiny verse and it is the key to the whole chapter.
Luke 12:50 But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!
If a preacher, teacher doesn't have that, they have no business teaching. If they miss that one step, pastoring becomes nothing more than crowd control. They need to sit under the Master until it be accomplished.

Now look at the first verse of the chapter. It confirms what I am saying.
In the mean time, when there were gathered together an innumerable multitude of people, insomuch that they trode one upon another, he began to say unto his disciples first of all, Beware ye of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy. 2 For there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; neither hid, that shall not be known. 3 Therefore whatsoever ye have spoken in darkness shall be heard in the light; and that which ye have spoken in the ear in closets shall be proclaimed upon the housetops.
So where is unity found? It is between the baptized born again sanctified, justified sinner, living in gratitude for what God has done and who is basking in God's good, loving, and holy presence. They are the ones begging to be used, begging to be sent, begging to be taught -- not the Pharisee who lives under the law and imposes that law on others, and whose rabbinical garments stretch themselves from one side of the sidewalk to the other so that people in passing have no choice but to bow and turn to the side to allow him to pass by.

This is what sanctified sinners hear in this chapter:
12:23 The life is more than meat, and the body is more than raiment. 24 Consider the ravens: for they neither sow nor reap; which neither have storehouse nor barn; and God feedeth them: how much more are ye better than the fowls? 25 And which of you with taking thought can add to his stature one cubit?..
27 Consider the lilies how they grow: they toil not, they spin not; and yet I say unto you, that Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. 28 If then God so clothe the grass, which is to-day in the field, and to-morrow is cast into the oven; how much more will he clothe you, O ye of little faith?
29 And seek not ye what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink, neither be ye of doubtful mind. For all these things do the nations of the world seek after: and your Father knoweth that ye have need of these things.
31BUT RATHER seek ye the kingdom of God; and all these things shall be added unto you.
32
fear
not,
little
flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.

When it comes from God no one can take it away from them. Little wonder then that it took so long for the Bible to be put into print so that every man could read it for themselves. Jesus wants to love us all the time.

There is no doubt that the Word of God is double edged. It brings unity to those who hear it and accept it into their hearts, which brings peace with God. Yet, at the same time it separates the believers from the unbelievers. You will find in every Church believers and unbelievers sitting right next to each other. If the Gospel is really being proclaimed like it suppose to be the only people in the Church would be just the believers. Jesus proclaimed the Gospel that did just that, and he was the most anointed teacher the world has ever known. Jesus had a baptism into which means to immerse fully. His mission was something that was constant in his mind and heart to accomplish.
He was fully immersed in completing it no matter what the cost. That should be the same type of commitment that those who are called in to the ministry to have.

bunnymuldare
Dec 19th 2013, 07:56 PM
Luk 12:51 Do you think that I have come to give peace on earth? No, I tell you, but rather division.
Luk 12:52 For from now on in one house there will be five divided, three against two and two against three.
Luk 12:53 They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against her daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law."

Mat 10:34 "Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword.

Jesus being the most anointed preacher / teacher the world has ever known, yet he caused a lot of controversy among the religious leaders of his day. Even the people whom he taught would believe him one day, and then the next day they would not believe. Jesus even had a meeting in a synagogue at Capernaum, and all his followers were there to hear him teach. What he taught them they did not like or understand, and were offended so they all took off and never came back. The scripture says, " After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him. (John 6:59:68) There is something about the Word of God that causes divisions amongst people, and that is exactly what it is designed to do. It's purpose is to separate the sheep from the goats, the believers from the unbelievers, not join them together. Jesus was always brutally honest with every one, he never sugar coated anything. He told people where they are so they knew where they stood with God. Most of the time people do not want to hear the truth, they just want you to make them feel good. I know the secret it takes to grow a very large Church. All you have to do is preach / teach the tradition of men and they will come in droves. Example: (tradition)

1Co 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

How many times have you heard this taught? Every body understands this and will agree with the pastor, yes you are right, who knows what God has for us. Everyone can relate to this type of message because they do not have a clue to what the Lord has for them in his Kingdom. Now here is the Gospel.

1Co 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

People do not want to hear this message because they are not experiencing this in there lives, they can not relate to it. Since they can not relate to it they think there is something wrong with the preacher / teacher, so they leave and find another place that is more to their liking.This is what Jesus experienced in his ministry. How big of a Church would Jesus have if he was here right now proclaiming the Gospel? 1000 members, 500 members, maybe only 5 members.The Church in Sardis was large, and they had made a name for them self's, and was also considered very lively., yet Jesus told them they were dead. But then he tells them that there were a few who had not soiled their garments, and they would walk with him in light. A handful of true believers in the mist of many dead ones. I can just see now Jesus being asked to come and to be a guest speaker at this Church. How many people do you think would be left after his sermon? Most likely only the few that had not soiled their garments :)

Pro 9:8 Reprove not a scorner, lest he hate thee: rebuke a wise man, and he will love thee.

Maybe there are some pastors or teachers that come to this forum and wonder why there Church has not grown to where they think it should be. Maybe it is where it is suppose to be. Preaching / teaching the truth separates the sheep from the goats just like it is suppose to.

What do you think?


I think you are too quick to condemn, thinking you are doing God a favor, too worried about presenting a spotless bride, instead of letting Jesus do the work.

This is what I read in I Cor.2:10 God has revealed them to us.
All those good things in verse 9, the wonderful things which God hath prepared for them that simply love him because h first loved us, we don't need to see them with our own eyes, because God has revealed them to our spirits.
Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death...8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

As that becomes the message, the Spirit draws them because it is the correct message. Then it is just a matter of asking, who wants this? and then letting Jesus do the rest...that is if the teacher has been immersed in his love first. If not, pray for it and keep on knocking till you get it, or you'll bring yourself and them back under the law again.

Curtis
Dec 19th 2013, 08:37 PM
I think you are too quick to condemn, thinking you are doing God a favor, too worried about presenting a spotless bride, instead of letting Jesus do the work.

This is what I read in I Cor.2:10 God has revealed them to us.
All those good things in verse 9, the wonderful things which God hath prepared for them that simply love him because h first loved us, we don't need to see them with our own eyes, because God has revealed them to our spirits.
Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death...8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

As that becomes the message, the Spirit draws them because it is the correct message. Then it is just a matter of asking, who wants this? and then letting Jesus do the rest...that is if the teacher has been immersed in his love first. If not, pray for it and keep on knocking till you get it, or you'll bring yourself and them back under the law again.

You seem to be misunderstanding the gospel and how it works. It has nothing to do with me or you, it is the Word that works through the Church and not us. Jesus said that it was his Father that was inside him that was doing the works, and not himself. As Jesus once said, "without me you can do nothing" If you want to go out and do what you want to do on your own that will not be God's will being performed, but only what you want. Many people are doing great things for the Lord today on their own, yet Jesus said I will say to them I never knew you even though they did things Godly. We can chose to do cool things on our own, but that will make the Word of God ineffective in its power to do what it was designed to do. The entire Work of God is letting the Lord do his work through his body. The only thing we do is simply believe the truth, that is our work, believing the Word. We are only earthen vessels that contain the power of God in which God works from. If you do not understand this you will only be working through the flesh which causes both believers and unbelievers to bind themselves together. Every thing Jesus spoke about to the seven Church's in Revelations was to separate the believers from the unbelievers that had infiltrated the Church.

2Co 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
2Co 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

luigi
Dec 19th 2013, 10:59 PM
Yes, as you say, scripture tends to interpret itself by looking at scripture elsewhere; and also through the historical events being looked at as living prophecy.

For example, not only did Christ's body sleep in a dark tomb, just as His Church Body has been doing, but He was also blindfolded and told to prophesy while blinded; this is exactly what the Body of Christ has done! Attempted to prophesy while in a state of blindness.

And the crown of thorns on His head - what does Jesus Himself say thorns represent?

Mark 4
18 Still others, like seed sown among thorns, hear the word; 19 but the worries of this life, the deceitfulness of wealth and the desires for other things come in and choke the word, making it unfruitful.

Just as Jesus wore the crown of thorns, so is the Body of Christ ruled by a carnal mindset that is more preoccupied with the worries of this life and the "desires for other things" to become truly spiritually fruitful. That is why everyone in the Body of Christ, over 2,000 years, has perished into the dust without entering the Promised Land alive - they have worn the crown of thorns, just like He did.

Everything that happened to Christ during His afflictions has been happening to His Church Body. That is why it is so important that those within the Body wake up and realize they have been entombed so that they can escape the tomb and ascend, just as He did. Those who choose not to wake up and flee will unfortunately be left in the tomb where they have chosen to stay - and miss out on the Millennial Kingdom. We can turn back to Revelation to see this fact:

Revelation 20
4They [the first resurrection] came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.
Tomb Escapee,
I see correlation between the first resurrection who come to life and reign with Christ for a thousand years, with the resurrection to everlasting life in DN 12:2.

Tomb Escapee
Dec 19th 2013, 11:23 PM
Tomb Escapee,
I see correlation between the first resurrection who come to life and reign with Christ for a thousand years, with the resurrection to everlasting life in DN 12:2.

Well, I believe Daniel 12:2 also relates to Jesus' words in John:

John 5
28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

But before the time that all come out of their graves, it appears the first resurrection will be for the purpose of reigning in the Millennial Kingdom. At that time, only those destined to reign will resurrect from the dust. That is also when those who are alive and remaining will be transformed alive - those who have resurrected from the tomb of the Church Age.

Then, as Revelation 20:5 tells us, the rest of the dead will be raised to face their judgment; this will be the judgment spoken of in Daniel 12:2 and John 5:28-29. Now, just because some will miss out on the Millennial Reign does not necessarily mean they will be eternally lost. But they will be kept from the Kingdom until the thousand years are over, and then judged.

Revelation 20
7 When the thousand years are over ...

11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

luigi
Dec 20th 2013, 12:05 AM
Well, I believe Daniel 12:2 also relates to Jesus' words in John:

John 5
28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

But before the time that all come out of their graves, it appears the first resurrection will be for the purpose of reigning in the Millennial Kingdom. At that time, only those destined to reign will resurrect from the dust. That is also when those who are alive and remaining will be transformed alive - those who have resurrected from the tomb of the Church Age.

Then, as Revelation 20:5 tells us, the rest of the dead will be raised to face their judgment; this will be the judgment spoken of in Daniel 12:2 and John 5:28-29. Now, just because some will miss out on the Millennial Reign does not necessarily mean they will be eternally lost. But they will be kept from the Kingdom until the thousand years are over, and then judged.

Revelation 20
7 When the thousand years are over ...

11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

I agree that John 5:28-29 corresponds with DN 12:2 where the resurrection of both the just and unjust occurs.
I also agree that as scriptures states that only those who are resurrected in the first resurrection are immune from the second death.
What I do not agree with is that this immunity from the second death includes all who are resurrected during the first resurrection when all they who hear His voice are woken, seeing how some of these during the first resurrection are destined to everlasting contempt (DN 12:2).
In which case, those who hear the voice of the Lord during the first resurrection who are destined to everlasting contempt, represent those who thought they had done the works the Lord wanted, but instead are those of whom the Lord will state He never knew.
The vast majority of all others I believe are those who disregarded the truth in favor of a materialistic lifestyle, who do not hear the voice of the Lord upon the first resurrection, and so do not awaken until the millennium is over.

Scooby_Snacks
Dec 20th 2013, 12:59 AM
In reference to the passages from 1 Thessalonians, I must again point out (as I did in a post on the previous page of this topic) that the writers of the NT epistles were already in the darkness that had set in after Christ left the world. This is undeniable by the fact that they were all convinced that they were in the “last times” and that Christ would be returning in the their lifetimes. They were oblivious to what was being worked out on the larger scale. They were oblivious to the fact that the Body of Christ was to be entombed in darkness for 2,000 years before awakening on the third day, even as Christ’s body was entombed in darkness and rose on the third day. Their misunderstanding of the death and resurrection of the Body of Christ over 2,000 years is represented by the fact that Jesus’ own disciples did not understand what He was talking about when He prophesied about His own death and resurrection:

Luke 18
31 Jesus took the Twelve aside and told them, “We are going up to Jerusalem, and everything that is written by the prophets about the Son of Man will be fulfilled. 32 He will be delivered over to the Gentiles. They will mock him, insult him and spit on him; 33 they will flog him and kill him. On the third day he will rise again.”

34 The disciples did not understand any of this. Its meaning was hidden from them, and they did not know what he was talking about.

It is important to know that the historical events recorded in the Bible are also living prophecies.

So, while the NT writers may have been trying to encourage their audience by telling them they were not in darkness, it was because those writers did not realize they already WERE in darkness. It is the same with the Church today – the Body of Christ believes it is not in darkness and can see clearly, but if this were truly the case, there would not exist the division and contradictions throughout the Church that exits. One can not awaken until he realizes he has been asleep, and one cannot truly see until he realizes he has been blind.

John 9
39Jesus said, “For judgment I have come into this world, so that the blind will see and those who see will become blind.”

It appears your only argument to scripture presented opposite of your view is to say the writers of the N.T. were in denial and didn't know they were writing a lie.
Kind of hard to build God's household on a foundation of lies, isn't it?
But if scripture is only inerrant in the areas you desire, anything is possible.

Ephesians 2:20-22
So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God's household, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone, in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord, In Him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit.

dan
Dec 20th 2013, 08:34 AM
It’s not any particular argument or theological position that is troubling. What I find worthy of concern is that Christians do not seem to take any time to contemplate the fact that they all use the same book (albeit different translations of it) but hold various contradicting doctrines and theological positions, and yet they all consider themselves united as “The Body of Christ.”

Perhaps.

Once, in Toledo, Ohio, a priest was arrested for ambushing and murdering a nun. He actually sacrificed her to satan at the site where he ambushed her, pentagram, ceremony and the whole nine yards-on the grounds of the convent where she was assigned.

After that episode, I was determined to not accept at face value, other people's views about scripture. Especially, without scripture to back it up.

Then, I check the scripture.

Test all things? Yup.


There’s no doubt that many who had felt secure will be surprised that they will not be a part of the Kingdom, but I want to point out the phrase that you used – “going against the Bible.” The fact is, anyone with a theological position that does not agree with another believes the other one is “going against the Bible.” Isn’t that the case? Pre-tribbers think post-tribbers are going against the Bible, and vice versa. Those who believe water baptism is necessary for salvation think those who disagree are going against the Bible and vice versa. The OSAS believers think the NOSAS believers are going against the Bible and vice versa. And etc, etc etc…

Post Trib/Pre Trib almost certainly won't affect your salvation, disappoint maybe and I've never heard a OSAS/NOSAS argument that would either.

Not knowing the failures of a translation is more dangerous than choosing the wrong one.


This all relates to what I said in my previous post – Christianity is like Israel in the days when there was no king. Everyone is simply believing what he considers right in his own eyes. Because of that, the Body of Christ is fractured and divided and this looks foolish to the unbelieving world, and it is the primary reason why the world remains in a state of unbelief (John 17:23). So, there is a mass repentance that is much needed within the Church.

Know God and you will realize when you are in Christ.

But, don't be surprised if others don't see it in you.

Tomb Escapee
Dec 20th 2013, 01:43 PM
I agree that John 5:28-29 corresponds with DN 12:2 where the resurrection of both the just and unjust occurs.
I also agree that as scriptures states that only those who are resurrected in the first resurrection are immune from the second death.
What I do not agree with is that this immunity from the second death includes all who are resurrected during the first resurrection when all they who hear His voice are woken, seeing how some of these during the first resurrection are destined to everlasting contempt (DN 12:2).
In which case, those who hear the voice of the Lord during the first resurrection who are destined to everlasting contempt, represent those who thought they had done the works the Lord wanted, but instead are those of whom the Lord will state He never knew.
The vast majority of all others I believe are those who disregarded the truth in favor of a materialistic lifestyle, who do not hear the voice of the Lord upon the first resurrection, and so do not awaken until the millennium is over.

Okay, so you're saying that the first resurrection will be made up of those who will reign, along with what some consider "Carnal Christians," if I'm understanding. Then after the 1,000 years, the next resurrection will consist of all who had lived their lives as complete unbelievers.

There are multiple reasons why I believe that many will be put through a "purifying fire" during the Millennial Reign and take their places in the Kingdom when the thousand years are over. They will actually not experience a physical death during that whole time, because the one holding the power of death - the devil - will be locked in the abyss. These will be the ones who will remain alive to see the coming of Christ, but who did not heed the call to come out of Babylon (Babylon means confusion, and with upwards of 20 or 30 thousand differing denominations, there is no doubt that the Christian Church is in a state of confusion). These are the ones who did not spiritually awaken from the spiritual tomb of the Christian Church Age.

Here is an OT Scripture that I believe prophesies directly concerning this:

Zechariah 13
8 In the whole land,” declares the LORD, “two-thirds will be struck down and perish; yet one-third will be left in it. 9 This third I will put into the fire; I will refine them like silver and test them like gold. They will call on my name and I will answer them; I will say, ‘They are my people,’ and they will say, ‘The LORD is our God.’”

For 2,000 years, God's people (Christians) have perished into the dust through physical death. When Christ returns, those among His people who have not made themselves ready for His coming will not experience physical death, but will be purified during the 1,000 year Millennial Reign (this third I will put into the fire).

In other words, those who truly knew Christ, the wheat, will reign over the tares who were not spiritually genuine but believed they followed Christ. Those who reign will serve as kings and priests to help purify those who are kept out of the Millennial Kingdom.

Tomb Escapee
Dec 20th 2013, 02:19 PM
It appears your only argument to scripture presented opposite of your view is to say the writers of the N.T. were in denial and didn't know they were writing a lie.
Kind of hard to build God's household on a foundation of lies, isn't it?
But if scripture is only inerrant in the areas you desire, anything is possible.

Ephesians 2:20-22
So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God's household, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone, in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord, In Him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit.



Not so! If one belives in God's complete sovereignty, one must also believe in the paradox of inerrant errancy. Or perfect imperfections - like Adam sinning "going against God" but still being a part of the divine master plan.

If you believe that everything the epistle writers recorded was literally "inerrant," then are you not forced to devise strange and dishonest interpretations of passages such as these?

1 Corinthians 10
11 These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the culmination of the ages has come.

What exactly did Paul mean by the "culmination of the ages" coming upon those people of his time, who all died 2,000 years ago while the same fallen world keeps turning at this present time? Or, was he perhaps mistaken?

1 John 2
28 And now, dear children, continue in him, so that when he appears we may be confident and unashamed before him at his coming.

When John wrote this, did it appear he knew that the world would still be waiting for Christ to return 2,000 years later, or did he seem confident that He would return within his lifetime and the lifetime of his audience? Can you answer that honestly, or must the clear meaning of that passage be twisted and reshapen somehow to avoid admitting that John was in the dark concerning the timing of what was taking place on the grand scale?

1 Peter 4
7 The end of all things is near.

Was this an inerrant statement by Peter? Or is there some bizarre interpretation of this passage that can somehow justify the fact that 20 centuries later, "the end of all things" still hasn't happened?

I'm not trying to be combative or mean. I'm just trying to get people to THINK a little more deeply than what they have been indoctrinated into believing about what the "inerrancy" of the Bible entails.

Tomb Escapee
Dec 20th 2013, 02:24 PM
Perhaps.

Once, in Toledo, Ohio, a priest was arrested for ambushing and murdering a nun. He actually sacrificed her to satan at the site where he ambushed her, pentagram, ceremony and the whole nine yards-on the grounds of the convent where she was assigned.

After that episode, I was determined to not accept at face value, other people's views about scripture. Especially, without scripture to back it up.

Then, I check the scripture.

Test all things? Yup.

Yes, but what happens when someone else tests things with Scripture and comes to different conclusions than you? Why does that happen?


Post Trib/Pre Trib almost certainly won't affect your salvation, disappoint maybe and I've never heard a OSAS/NOSAS argument that would either.

Not knowing the failures of a translation is more dangerous than choosing the wrong one.

But, the term "almost certainly" implies a lack of complete assuredness, does it not? If we were not currently trapped in darkness, wouldn't we know for sure? In fact, there wouldn't even be a pre-trib/post-trib or osas/nosas debate, because we would know the Truth in the Light!




Know God and you will realize when you are in Christ.

But, don't be surprised if others don't see it in you.

But how does this relate to the fact that Jesus Himself said that if His followers were completely united in all things, the world would come to belief? Ultimately, who is more accountable for the world's unbelief - the world itself, or Christ's divided Church Body?

luigi
Dec 20th 2013, 03:37 PM
Okay, so you're saying that the first resurrection will be made up of those who will reign, along with what some consider "Carnal Christians," if I'm understanding. Then after the 1,000 years, the next resurrection will consist of all who had lived their lives as complete unbelievers.

There are multiple reasons why I believe that many will be put through a "purifying fire" during the Millennial Reign and take their places in the Kingdom when the thousand years are over. They will actually not experience a physical death during that whole time, because the one holding the power of death - the devil - will be locked in the abyss. These will be the ones who will remain alive to see the coming of Christ, but who did not heed the call to come out of Babylon (Babylon means confusion, and with upwards of 20 or 30 thousand differing denominations, there is no doubt that the Christian Church is in a state of confusion). These are the ones who did not spiritually awaken from the spiritual tomb of the Christian Church Age.

Here is an OT Scripture that I believe prophesies directly concerning this:

Zechariah 13
8 In the whole land,” declares the LORD, “two-thirds will be struck down and perish; yet one-third will be left in it. 9 This third I will put into the fire; I will refine them like silver and test them like gold. They will call on my name and I will answer them; I will say, ‘They are my people,’ and they will say, ‘The LORD is our God.’”

For 2,000 years, God's people (Christians) have perished into the dust through physical death. When Christ returns, those among His people who have not made themselves ready for His coming will not experience physical death, but will be purified during the 1,000 year Millennial Reign (this third I will put into the fire).

In other words, those who truly knew Christ, the wheat, will reign over the tares who were not spiritually genuine but believed they followed Christ. Those who reign will serve as kings and priests to help purify those who are kept out of the Millennial Kingdom.
Tomb Escapee, it is no wonder that there are over 20 or 30 thousand Christian denominations when everyone seems to have different views on different scriptures.
I believe these different perceptions (including I'm sure some of my own) are due to Satan deceiving us (through his false illumination) into believing what we believe to be correct.

Satan's power over us is that most Christians (if not all Christians today) walk carnally, and therefore we each follow Mammon to varying degrees.
By caparison we can see that the disciples who walked as Christ did, placing all their faith in God for supplying their physical needs, were also immune from the devils influence touching them (1 John 5:18). The disciples therefore had the Word of God correct, without the devils influence/touching, providing them false illumination.

Whether I am correct or wrong in regards to the resurrection in Daniel 12:2, which in context with chapter 12 appears to occur at the end of the great tribulation, I cannot be certain as I like everyone today, am currently influenced/deceived/touched by the deceiver as well.
Nevertheless, one does have to take into account that during the first resurrection in Daniel 12:2, many of those who rise, do so to shame and everlasting contempt.
Taking into consideration that this group who rise to shame and everlasting contempt do so upon hearing the Lords voice, I then assume that these individuals represent those who knew what the Word of God said, but instead did contrariwise.
If this is not the case, one would then need to explain why some destined to Hell, rise in the first resurrection, while all others destined to Hell don't until the end of the millennium.

I also believe the purifying fire you mention represents the 1,260 day great tribulation period of the faithful which will culminate with a blessing on day 1,335 (DN 12:12), where Satan will no longer be able to touch/influence them.
This occurs after all false Christians on earth are shaken out, along with Satan and his angels from heaven (Hebrews 12:26; Rev 12:9), during and up to the end of the great tribulation.
We, the saints then who are totally dependent upon God for all their needs, "that tarrieth not for man, nor waiteth for the sons of men" (Micah 5:7), shall have the Lord commencing to reign through us (Micah 5:3; Rev 12:10).

This is not the end, however, as Satan when he cast down to the earth at this time, sees his time remaining (his reign on earth) is short, initiates a dire agenda that culminates in woe for the inhabitants of both earth and sea (Rev 12:12). He initiates his agenda of woe against the inhabitants of the earth and sea by standing on the sandy seashore and giving power to the beast (Rev 13:4).
I believe this power to represent Satan allowing the beast to attain fusion energy, that will allow the beasts system to produce unlimited amounts of material goods, and therefore mankind will worship the dragon who will have given this power to the beast, and will also worship the beast who will provide them with a wonderful materialistic lifestyle. Thus mankind (those living in darkness who will worship the hedonistic lifestyle of the beast), will declare "who is able to make war with the beast?", meaning: what other government can provide a better lifestyle than that of the beasts system?
The dragon and beasts, and the second beasts hedonistic government continues until the culmination of the seven vials of Gods wrath have been poured out upon the earth in retribution for the murder of the saints (Rev chapters 15 and 16).

The saints (those who have forsaken all to follow Christ and walk as He did) shall reign with Him over the sheep, not reign over the tares (goats) who shall be cast out and seperate.

Tomb Escapee
Dec 20th 2013, 06:31 PM
Tomb Escapee, it is no wonder that there are over 20 or 30 thousand Christian denominations when everyone seems to have different views on different scriptures.
I believe these different perceptions (including I'm sure some of my own) are due to Satan deceiving us (through his false illumination) into believing what we believe to be correct.

Satan's power over us is that most Christians (if not all Christians today) walk carnally, and therefore we each follow Mammon to varying degrees.
By caparison we can see that the disciples who walked as Christ did, placing all their faith in God for supplying their physical needs, were also immune from the devils influence touching them (1 John 5:18). The disciples therefore had the Word of God correct, without the devils influence/touching, providing them false illumination.

Thanks for this in-depth reply.

Yes, I'm not sure if you had seen some of my earlier posts about satan, the serpent, actually having dominion over the Church since Christ left the world. This was foreshadowed by Moses exalting the serpent in the wilderness (just as the Christian Church has been deceived by satan during the 2,000 year wilderness).

It was also foreshadowed when Yahweh was instructing Moses about how to convince the Israelites to follow him. One of the signs was that Moses staff (the staff or rod represents authority) was transformed into a serpent before changing back into the stiff rod. This again represents Christ leaving the world and satan being in charge until He returns to rule with a rod of iron. It also represents the fact that the Church has been impotent (the serpent is flaccid) at bringing forth the true fruits of the Kingdom, and these can only be brought forth when Christ returns with His stiff rod.

These are uncomfortable truths that Christians are not very eager to accept or consider (as we obviously see when they are presented with them even on these message boards) but that must begin to be accepted so that the Church can awaken on a mass scale. (I am an optomist and have hope that the entire Church will resurrect and all will be spared of being surprised and devastated when Christ returns.)

And you are correct again with the idea that Christians are walking carnally and overtaken by mundane and fleeting concerns. This again is the crown of thorns that the Body of Christ wears.

Another living prophecy about the condition of the Body of Christ can be found by comparing the Harlot of Babylon (confusion) to Christ during His afflictions:

Revelation 17
3 Then the angel carried me away in the Spirit into a desert [wilderness]. There I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was covered with blas-phemous names and had seven heads and ten horns. 4 The woman was dressed in purple and scarlet

What did Christ during His afflictions have in common with this harlot dressed in purple and scarlet?

Matthew 27
28 They stripped him and put a scarlet robe on him, 29 and then twisted together a crown of thorns and set it on his head.

Mark 15
17 They put a purple robe on him, then twisted together a crown of thorns and set it on him.

As the Body of Christ has been in a wilderness, and as He was dressed in a scarlet and/or purple robe during His afflictions, so is the harlot of Babylon in the wilderness described as being dressed in purple and scarlet.

So many scriptural riddles can be solved and prophetic dots connected if and when one is willing to directly face the truth of the condition of the Body of Christ not only now, but throughout the Church Age. When accepting that the last 2,000 years has been a time of blindness and darkness, many revelations begin to be seen. So it is needless to say that coming out of the tomb is the equivalent of coming out of Babylon to avoid being judged with it (Revelation 18:4-5).


Whether I am correct or wrong in regards to the resurrection in Daniel 12:2, which in context with chapter 12 appears to occur at the end of the great tribulation, I cannot be certain as I like everyone today, am currently influenced/deceived/touched by the deceiver as well.
Nevertheless, one does have to take into account that during the first resurrection in Daniel 12:2, many of those who rise, do so to shame and everlasting contempt.
Taking into consideration that this group who rise to shame and everlasting contempt do so upon hearing the Lords voice, I then assume that these individuals represent those who knew what the Word of God said, but instead did contrariwise.
If this is not the case, one would then need to explain why some destined to Hell, rise in the first resurrection, while all others destined to Hell don't until the end of the millennium.

I also believe the purifying fire you mention represents the 1,260 day great tribulation period of the faithful which will culminate with a blessing on day 1,335 (DN 12:12), where Satan will no longer be able to touch/influence them.
This occurs after all false Christians on earth are shaken out, along with Satan and his angels from heaven (Hebrews 12:26; Rev 12:9), during and up to the end of the great tribulation.
We, the saints then who are totally dependent upon God for all their needs, "that tarrieth not for man, nor waiteth for the sons of men" (Micah 5:7), shall have the Lord commencing to reign through us (Micah 5:3; Rev 12:10).

This is not the end, however, as Satan when he cast down to the earth at this time, sees his time remaining (his reign on earth) is short, initiates a dire agenda that culminates in woe for the inhabitants of both earth and sea (Rev 12:12). He initiates his agenda of woe against the inhabitants of the earth and sea by standing on the sandy seashore and giving power to the beast (Rev 13:4).
I believe this power to represent Satan allowing the beast to attain fusion energy, that will allow the beasts system to produce unlimited amounts of material goods, and therefore mankind will worship the dragon who will have given this power to the beast, and will also worship the beast who will provide them with a wonderful materialistic lifestyle. Thus mankind (those living in darkness who will worship the hedonistic lifestyle the beast), will declare "who is able to make war with the beast?", meaning: what government can provide an better lifestyle than that of the beasts system?
The dragon and beasts, and the second beasts hedonistic government continues until the culmination of the seven vials of Gods wrath have been poured out upon the earth in retribution for the murder of the saints (Rev chapters 15 and 16).

The saints (those who have forsaken all to follow Christ and walk as He did) shall reign with Him over the sheep, not reign over the tares (goats) who shall be cast out and seperate.

Even though I speak confidently about what I am convinced of, I am like you in always accepting the possibility that I could be wrong about everything. This again goes hand in hand with accepting the fact that we are still confined to a time of enbombment - a Matrix or womb from which we must break free. This again is what the vast majority of Christians do not want to accept or face. Many would rather go on believing they can truly see while all of the divided sheep continue to go on doing what is right in their own eyes while the King is away.

While I don't believe that any destined for damnation will be raised in the first resurrection (only those destined to reign), I will say that all of these long term prophecies that we are dealing with in Revelation, Daniel, etc are almost impossible to conceive of in terms of how they will specifically play out. We have many centuries worth of future events that are basically wrapped up into a few Biblical paragraphs. So there is no way that there can be anything other than confusion when dealing with them. The problem is that many are insistent that they have got everything figured out and are secure in their positions, while few are willing to face that we are still in a time of darkness where the crafty serpent is more than able to deceive truth seekers. A true and honest desire to escape the Matrix is the primary hope for actually escaping it - but first it must be accepted that we are trapped in a Matrix/tomb and have a vital need to get out of it, lest no flesh be saved alive if these days are not cut short. (I am of the belief that the Great Tribulation has been occurring throuhgout the Church Age, with men not even realizing it and looking forward to a future tribulation. But that is a whoooole nother topic!)

luigi
Dec 20th 2013, 07:57 PM
I will say that all of these long term prophecies that we are dealing with in Revelation, Daniel, etc are almost impossible to conceive of in terms of how they will specifically play out.
I agree that it is almost impossible to conceive how many of the prophesies in Revelation, and Daniel, and other apocrypha, will specifically play out.
Nevertheless, the angel did inform Daniel that the prophesies he received regarding the future were meant to be understood by the brethren in the end period (DN 12:9-10).
If we are therefore in the end period, Daniels prophesies, and I will include those in Revelation along with all other biblical apocrypha, are now meant to commence being understood.

Tomb Escapee
Dec 20th 2013, 08:19 PM
I agree that it is almost impossible to conceive how many of the prophesies in Revelation, and Daniel, and other apocrypha, will specifically play out.
Nevertheless, the angel did inform Daniel that the prophesies he received regarding the future were meant to be understood by the brethren in the end period (DN 12:9-10).
If we are therefore in the end period, Daniels prophesies, and I will include those in Revelation along with all other biblical apocrypha, are now meant to commence being understood.

Good point! The end of the wilderness journey, the end of the "night," as the stone is beginning to roll away from the mouth of the tomb.

TheDivineWatermark
Dec 21st 2013, 12:58 AM
Not so! If one belives in God's complete sovereignty, one must also believe in the paradox of inerrant errancy. Or perfect imperfections - like Adam sinning "going against God" but still being a part of the divine master plan.

If you believe that everything the epistle writers recorded was literally "inerrant," then are you not forced to devise strange and dishonest interpretations of passages such as these?

1 Corinthians 10
11 These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the culmination of the ages has come.

What exactly did Paul mean by the "culmination of the ages" coming upon those people of his time, who all died 2,000 years ago while the same fallen world keeps turning at this present time? Or, was he perhaps mistaken?

[...]

I'm not trying to be combative or mean. I'm just trying to get people to THINK a little more deeply than what they have been indoctrinated into believing about what the "inerrancy" of the Bible entails.

While I think the writers may not have understood everything completely, I do believe the Holy Spirit had them write exactly what He wanted written (for our [the readers'] benefit). In the various passages you posted earlier (which I did look up at the time, but haven't had time to respond like I'd like), including the verse I quote above, I believe these are in the "plural" for a specific reason: i.e. "for our admonition, upon whom the ENDS [plural] of the AGES [plural] are come." This is not the same as the phrase "the END of the AGE"--Matthew 13:39-40, 49, 24:3--(which I believe refers specifically to the time of His Second Coming to the earth [to judge and to reign], for the start of the promised earthly Millennial Kingdom [the kingdom age]), so whether or not Paul understood that there would be a 2000-year period does not mean the words he wrote, inspired by the Holy Spirit, were not precisely accurate. I believe they were (are).

Plural where He intended plural, singular where He intended singular... each meaning their own very precise thing.

Scooby_Snacks
Dec 21st 2013, 02:04 AM
Not so! If one belives in God's complete sovereignty, one must also believe in the paradox of inerrant errancy. Or perfect imperfections - like Adam sinning "going against God" but still being a part of the divine master plan.

If you believe that everything the epistle writers recorded was literally "inerrant," then are you not forced to devise strange and dishonest interpretations of passages such as these?

1 Corinthians 10
11 These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the culmination of the ages has come.

Not at all. The passage makes sense to me as it stands not having any of your teaching about ages or the culmination thereof. The Body of Christ as a whole generation (first time I ever thought of it as this but going with it) is the (for us) not just those present at the time because scripture is written for all.


What exactly did Paul mean by the "culmination of the ages" coming upon those people of his time, who all died 2,000 years ago while the same fallen world keeps turning at this present time? Or, was he perhaps mistaken?

Like I said, I don't study end times like some do, which is fine, I am only lead there ever so often. I am more today based.


1 John 2
28 And now, dear children, continue in him, so that when he appears we may be confident and unashamed before him at his coming.

When John wrote this, did it appear he knew that the world would still be waiting for Christ to return 2,000 years later, or did he seem confident that He would return within his lifetime and the lifetime of his audience? Can you answer that honestly, or must the clear meaning of that passage be twisted and reshapen somehow to avoid admitting that John was in the dark concerning the timing of what was taking place on the grand scale?

Same answer given. This is not just scripture to those in the time it was written. The Holy Spirit is speaking through the writers to every time, not just the one they were physically alive in. If all scripture where to those just in that specific time, why would we read any of it and take it into our heart as relevant to us, if it is written to other people?

Even in 1 Corinthians 10 this is reflected to those it was written at that time and to our time--in that we are to learn from scriptural history what to do and what not to do.



1 Peter 4
7 The end of all things is near.

Was this an inerrant statement by Peter? Or is there some bizarre interpretation of this passage that can somehow justify the fact that 20 centuries later, "the end of all things" still hasn't happened?

Again, same answer. God's timeline is not the same as ours because He sees the complete picture, while we see pieces as our time here on earth passes away. He knows what will benefit and build His Body and has used those who wrote scripture to perform His will through The Holy Spirit that does not lie to all people from the time it was written, until the time that will never end, because His Word will never pass away. It is eternal as He is.



I'm not trying to be combative or mean. I'm just trying to get people to THINK a little more deeply than what they have been indoctrinated into believing about what the "inerrancy" of the Bible entails.

I don't need to think more deeply because God is deeper than any of my thoughts.
I believe scripture is fully alive as He is alive through the eyes of The Holy Spirit it effects every part of my being for good.

TheDivineWatermark
Dec 21st 2013, 07:32 AM
Originally Posted by TheDivineWatermark

Well, then I guess we would disagree here on a few points: I believe most of these passages refer to the time of His Second Coming to the earth (but at that time, "the Church which is His body" [all those who have trusted in His finished work alone for salvation, from Pentecost to the rapture] will already have been given glorified bodies and will be coming back WITH HIM)... all of Mark 13 is about the (future) tribulation period in the years immediately preceding His Second Coming to the earth ("the Church which is His body" will not be here during that time period), Matthew 25:1-13nasb is not about "the bride/wife [singular]" (and the "wedding"), but about "the 10 bridesmaids" (and "the wedding supper/feast") and the bridegroom (Jesus) is not coming to marry 10 bridesmaids, or even 5 (so also is not about "the Church"), and Matthew 13:24-30 ("the kingdom of [the] heaven[s]") is not about "the Church" but about "the kingdom" of which "the field is the world"... if it were about "the Church" then it would not have been said, "let both grow together until the harvest" (i.e. refrain from judging) because if it were a question of "the Church," as such, discipline would be obligatory: "Do ye not judge them that are within [the church]? But those who are outside, God judges. REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES." 1 Corinthians 5:12-13nasb).

So, as I see it, those passages are about His Second Coming to the earth, but "the Church which is His body" will, by that time, have already been "caught up" and "changed" (glorified) and will be returning WITH HIM. The Church is ONE body (ONE bride), no part of it will be left out. "Christendom," on the other hand... (all those who have not trusted in Christ's finished work alone, for salvation, who come in His name and "profess" but do not "possess His LIFE" and thus are not vitally connected with Him, WILL be... to go through the tribulation period on the earth). Of course, we (the Church) are told, "let us not sleep as do others: but let us watch and be sober... [and] putting on... for an helmet, 'the hope of salvation' [that is, an eschatological salvation, aka the rapture]." 1 Thessalonians 5:6, 8. This is what "we" are to understand, know, and anticipate.

What you say here, however, contributes to the overall point I’m making and even the question that is asked by topic’s title. You and many others believe that the Church will be raptured away before the end-time tribulation. But millions of other Christians who are just as devout do not believe in a “pre-trib” rapture. And of course there are other positions held by other Christians on the same topic. How can you “prove” that you are any more correct than them, or vice versa?

All of Christianity basically uses the same book as its source for Truth, but within Christianity there are multitudes of contradicting views – with everyone convinced that their particular views are correct. Shouldn’t this be a reason for contemplation?

Again, Christ – the King – said that darkness would set in when He left, and that true light only shines in the world when He is present in it. Can’t we see how this relates to the state of Israel after Joshua (Jesus = Joshua) had left them, and there was no King?

Judges 17
6 In those days Israel had no king; everyone did what was right in his own eyes.

Does Christianity not match this description precisely? Everyone within it believes they are correct with their theological beliefs, even though they conflict with one another.

Not sure if you saw one of my earlier posts that compared the time that Jesus’ body slept in the dark tomb with the Body of Christ being entombed in darkness since He left the world. 2,000 years later, we are nearing the dawn of the “third day,” which should be an awakening (or a resurrection) of the Church. BUT – this awakening cannot happen until the masses within the Church realize and confess that they have been unquestionably, 100% blind while the King has been away. This requires true humility and the willingness to forsake all previously held doctrines and beliefs if necessary, but the Lord Himself says that it is necessary to begin to truly see (awaken):

John 9
39 For judgment I have come into the world so that the blind will see, and those who see will become blind.

Just a few thoughts on this, perhaps not very well written, but here they are anyway (I'm really, really tired, so work with me here :D ):


--He relates to "Israel" (and "the nations") primarily as "King," and He relates to "the Church [which is His body]" primarily as "Head" (see passages below)

--He will come at His Second Coming to the earth, as "King" (we, "the Church which is His body" will be coming WITH HIM at that time... to reign with Him on the earth)

--At present, His role is "Priest"

--When He ascended, He "gave gifts to men"... "He gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors-teachers. For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith [that body of truth], and of the [full-]knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into Him in all things, which is the Head, even Christ." (Ephesians 4:10-15)

--I would suggest, for the most part, if anyone (during this Church age/dispensation) is "confused" (etc), it is because they are "not holding the Head" (Colossians 2:19)

--"the Church which is His body" was "raised with" and He "seated us with, in the heavenlies IN CHRIST" (that is, "positionally")... and if this "grave idea" pictures anything, it is that we, His body, have been existing (in our "state") with "the body of this death" (the SIN principle) which we carry around like a dead corpse (but which likes to bother us still). "Who shall DELIVER me from 'the body of this death'? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Romans 7:24-25; Romans 8 answers to this--see especially vv.1-13, v.11 "shall also quicken your mortal bodies [the ones we still live in] by [means of] His Spirit that dwelleth in you"). Later (whenever it happens), at the time of the resurrection/rapture of "the Church which is His body" (ONE body/all), we will be forever rid of "the SIN principle," the sin nature, and will be forever perfected. But this (and the timing of this) will be His doing, not ours (and my personal belief is that that time is already "fixed"... in other words, it does not depend on us)

--I would suggest that one thing which is "in the tomb/darkness" for 2000 years is (not "the Church," necessarily, but) "the kingdom" (which Israel is presently blinded to her King and Messiah, and of which "the Church which is His body" is not yet to be reigning, with Christ, over... but will be in the future, when He "comes"). Hosea 5:15-6:3 shows this, as I see it: "After two days will He revive us [Israel]: in the third day He will raise us [Israel] up, and we [Israel] shall live in His sight." "What shall the receiving of them [Israel] be, but life from the dead." Romans 11:15b



"KING" passages: (I think they're all there :) )

Matthew 2:2 "King of the Jews"
5:35 "Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King"
21:5 "Tell ye the daughter of Zion, 'Behold, thy King cometh unto thee'"
25:34, [v.40] [context 2nd Coming to the earth] "then shall the King say" ["before him shall be gathered all nations"]
27:11 "Art thou King of the Jews?" "Thou sayest."
27:29 "Hail, King of the Jews!"
27:37 "his accusation written, 'THIS IS JESUS THE KING OF THE JEWS.'"
27:42 "If He be King of Israel"

Mark 15:2 "Art thou King of the Jews?" "Thou sayest."
15:9 "Will ye that I release unto you the King of the Jews?"
15:12 "whom ye call the King of the Jews?"
15:18 "Hail, King of the Jews!"
15:26 "his accusation was written over, 'THE KING OF THE JEWS.'"
15:32 "Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross"

Luke 19:38 "Saying, 'Blessed be the King that cometh in the name of the Lord'"
23:2 "saying that He Himself is Christ a King."
23:3 "Art thou King of the Jews?" "Thou sayest."
23:37 "if thou be the king of the Jews, save thyself."
23:38 "written over Him... 'THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS'"

John 1:49 "Thou art the Son of God, Thou art the King of Israel."
6:15 "When Jesus perceived that they... take Him by force and make Him a king"
12:13 "'Blessed is the King of Israel that cometh in the name of the Lord.'"
12:15 "Fear not, daughter of Sion, behold, thy King cometh, sitting on an ass's colt."
18:33 "Art thou the King of the Jews?"
18:37 "Art thou a king then?" "Jesus answered, 'Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth.'"
18:39 "will ye therefore that I release unto you the King of the Jews?"
19:3 "Hail, King of the Jews!"
19:14 "and he saith unto the Jews, 'Behold your King!'"
19:15 "Pilate saith unto them, 'Shall I crucify your King?'"
19:19 "And the writing was, 'JESUS OF NAZARETH THE KING OF THE JEWS'"
19:21 "Write not 'The King of the Jews'; but that he said, 'I am King of the Jews'"

Acts 17:7ylt "whom Jason hath received; and these all do contrary to the decrees of Caesar, saying 'another [B]to be king -- Jesus.'"

Revelation 17:14 "and King of kings"
19:16 "a name written, 'KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.'"

Psalm 89:18 "the Holy One of Israel is our king."
149:2 "Let Israel rejoice in Him that made him: let the children of Zion be joyful in their King."

Isaiah 41:21 "Produce your cause, saith the LORD; bring forth your strong reasons, saith the King of Jacob."
43:15 "I am the LORD, your Holy One, the creator of Israel, your King."
44:6 "Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God."

Jeremiah 23:5 "Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth."

Zephaniah 3:14-15 "the King of Israel, even the Lord."



[and]

Jeremiah 10:7 "Who would not fear Thee, O King of nations?" (see also v.6/context)

Revelation 15:3 [possibly] "[them that had gotten the victory over the beast (trib period)] And they sing the song of Moses... and the song of the Lamb, saying, '... just and true are Thy ways, Thou King of nations [G1484].'" [some versions say "King of saints [G40]"]



--The only mention of "King" in the epistles (to, for, and about "the Church") is:

1 Timothy 1:17 "Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God..."

1 Timothy 6:15 "which in His times He shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings [the ones reigning], and Lord of lords [the ones ruling]."



"HEAD" passages:

Ephesians 1:22-23 "And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, which is His body"

4:15 "[For the edifying of the body of Christ...] But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ"

5:23 "For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body."

Colossians 1:18 "And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence."

2:10 "And ye [the Church which is His body] are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power"

2:19 "And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God."



I apologize for the length of this post. :D

(Summary: I don't entirely disagree with your idea, I just don't entirely agree with it either :) ... based on the above [and more].)

bunnymuldare
Dec 22nd 2013, 04:57 PM
Well now...
After 4 pages of arguing over the Word, I guess the question has been answered.

We need Jesus. All of us. Now! Anybody got any ideas how to do that? :giveup:

Scooby_Snacks
Dec 23rd 2013, 02:17 AM
Well now...
After 4 pages of arguing over the Word, I guess the question has been answered.

We need Jesus. All of us. Now! Anybody got any ideas how to do that? :giveup:

With men it is impossible. But with God all things are possible!!

Zechariah 4:6
Then he said to me, “This is the word of the LORD to Zerubbabel: Not by might, nor by power, but by my Spirit, says the LORD of hosts.

dan
Dec 23rd 2013, 10:55 AM
Yes, but what happens when someone else tests things with Scripture and comes to different conclusions than you? Why does that happen?

I believe it happens because of one's misconceptions about what is literal in Scripture. Although, sometimes it is because of what is taught by a certain denomination's clergy, or, even, that denominations version of the Bible.

There have been days when I was doubtful about several things in the Bible. I believe those days are at an end, but, I try to listen, just in case I missed something and I read the Bible to keep my convictions strong.


But, the term "almost certainly" implies a lack of complete assuredness, does it not? If we were not currently trapped in darkness, wouldn't we know for sure? In fact, there wouldn't even be a pre-trib/post-trib or osas/nosas debate, because we would know the Truth in the Light!

If some of these topics hadn't been brought up, I would have no doubts, and, to paraphrase one of the Apostles, if I hadn't read the Law I wouldn't know how much sin there was to commit. Still, to believe things that are not clear in the Bible, and not stated in scripture, seems a futile, and unnecessarily distracting exercise.


But how does this relate to the fact that Jesus Himself said that if His followers were completely united in all things, the world would come to belief? Ultimately, who is more accountable for the world's unbelief - the world itself, or Christ's divided Church Body?

Disunity in the Churches is the fault of the Adversary, and no one else. To the extent that some willingly and knowingly propagate falsehoods in doctrine is definitely detrimental to their salvation. Of course, if any are taken in by incorrect teachings, their salvation could be in jeopardy:

"Those that lead into captivity, shall go into captivity..."-Rev 13:10

Tomb Escapee
Dec 23rd 2013, 01:33 PM
Sorry, I wasn't able to log on over the weekend, so I've got a lot of catching up to do on everyone's replies, which I will do throughout the day. :)

Tomb Escapee
Dec 23rd 2013, 07:01 PM
While I think the writers may not have understood everything completely, I do believe the Holy Spirit had them write exactly what He wanted written (for our [the readers'] benefit). In the various passages you posted earlier (which I did look up at the time, but haven't had time to respond like I'd like), including the verse I quote above, I believe these are in the "plural" for a specific reason: i.e. "for our admonition, upon whom the ENDS [plural] of the AGES [plural] are come." This is not the same as the phrase "the END of the AGE"--Matthew 13:39-40, 49, 24:3--(which I believe refers specifically to the time of His Second Coming to the earth [to judge and to reign], for the start of the promised earthly Millennial Kingdom [the kingdom age]), so whether or not Paul understood that there would be a 2000-year period does not mean the words he wrote, inspired by the Holy Spirit, were not precisely accurate. I believe they were (are).

Plural where He intended plural, singular where He intended singular... each meaning their own very precise thing.

Your point is well taken concerning the idea of the culmination of the ages being different than the actual end of the age or the ages, but with an honest overall analysis of the Epistles, I don’t think there can be any doubt about the fact that the writers were more than partially convinced that Christ was returning in their lifetimes.

So yes, while God’s sovereignty has ultimately prompted what was written in the Epistles, I must again say that does not necessitate that everything recorded in them was what we should consider to be 100% “accurate.” Just as God’s sovereignty foresaw the fall of man, even though they “weren’t supposed to” eat from the tree of knowledge; and just as his sovereignty foresaw the wickedness of man before the flood that caused him to wipe out mankind that he himself created. While these could be considered “mistakes,” they were nonetheless a part of the grand plan that could have been pre-emptively stopped by God if desired.

The same is true with the shortsightedness of the Epistle writers. The sheer fact alone that the writers penned their works in a way that implied the coming of Christ in their lifetimes is enough to show that they wrote them in a time of darkness, is it not? Just as Christ prophesied in John 9:4-5.

Tomb Escapee
Dec 23rd 2013, 07:10 PM
Not at all. The passage makes sense to me as it stands not having any of your teaching about ages or the culmination thereof. The Body of Christ as a whole generation (first time I ever thought of it as this but going with it) is the (for us) not just those present at the time because scripture is written for all.



Like I said, I don't study end times like some do, which is fine, I am only lead there ever so often. I am more today based.



Same answer given. This is not just scripture to those in the time it was written. The Holy Spirit is speaking through the writers to every time, not just the one they were physically alive in. If all scripture where to those just in that specific time, why would we read any of it and take it into our heart as relevant to us, if it is written to other people?

Even in 1 Corinthians 10 this is reflected to those it was written at that time and to our time--in that we are to learn from scriptural history what to do and what not to do.

I agree that the Word is living and active and has applications that stretch across time, but from the perspective of the readers of those epistles 2,000 years ago, were not the epistle writers writing to them as if expecting the coming of the Kingdom in that time? The only thing that matters here is whether or not one can confess that the epistle writers were ignorant to the timing of Christ’s coming, and had written in such a way that they expected that coming in their lifetimes.



Again, same answer. God's timeline is not the same as ours because He sees the complete picture, while we see pieces as our time here on earth passes away. He knows what will benefit and build His Body and has used those who wrote scripture to perform His will through The Holy Spirit that does not lie to all people from the time it was written, until the time that will never end, because His Word will never pass away. It is eternal as He is.

Again, however, to say something is “inerrant” when statements made about Christ’s return were written as though He would be coming back at that time is not logical – unless we completely redefine the meaning of the word “inerrant.” If I type on these forums that Christ will be coming back in our lifetimes and we are in the end times and should be prepared, and 1,000 years from now, He still hasn’t returned and someone pulls up my posts from the archives, would they look at my declarations as erroneous or as inerrant? Of course, erroneous. What then would be the only difference between my erroneous statement and those of the epistle writers? The fact that theirs are “in the Bible” would of course be the answer of most Christians. So, it is only blind indoctrination that causes one to call something “inerrant” that clearly is erroneous.



I don't need to think more deeply because God is deeper than any of my thoughts.
I believe scripture is fully alive as He is alive through the eyes of The Holy Spirit it effects every part of my being for good.

A lack of desire to think more deeply is a lack of desire to attain true knowledge (Jesus defines eternal life as knowledge - GNOSIS - in the Gospel of John). To refuse knowledge means one is without knowledge, which is defined by the term agnostic - and this is an idea that Christians generally condemn, is it not?

Do you “not need to think more deeply” because there are uncomfortable elements that come along with doing so? Is it easier to go on insisting on being able to see while blind than it is to confess being blind so that more heavenly knowledge can be gained? Is it easier to remain among the 99 sheep who get left in the wilderness (the tomb of the Church Age) than it is to become the lost sheep that is taken home to a joyful celebration?

Luke 15
4 “Suppose one of you has a hundred sheep and loses one of them. Doesn’t he leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness and go after the lost sheep until he finds it? 5 And when he finds it, he joyfully puts it on his shoulders 6and goes home. [He does not go back for the other 99 sheep.] Then he calls his friends and neighbors together and says, ‘Rejoice with me; I have found my lost sheep.’ 7 I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine right-eous persons who do not need to repent.

Is it easier to feel no need to repent because you are already a Christian than it is to face the implications of having to awaken and escape the tomb that the divided and carnal Body of Christ has been slumbering in?

Tomb Escapee
Dec 23rd 2013, 07:15 PM
Just a few thoughts on this, perhaps not very well written, but here they are anyway (I'm really, really tired, so work with me here :D ):


--He relates to "Israel" (and "the nations") primarily as "King," and He relates to "the Church [which is His body]" primarily as "Head" (see passages below)

--He will come at His Second Coming to the earth, as "King" (we, "the Church which is His body" will be coming WITH HIM at that time... to reign with Him on the earth)

--At present, His role is "Priest"

--When He ascended, He "gave gifts to men"... "He gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors-teachers. For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith [that body of truth], and of the [full-]knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into Him in all things, which is the Head, even Christ." (Ephesians 4:10-15)

--I would suggest, for the most part, if anyone (during this Church age/dispensation) is "confused" (etc), it is because they are "not holding the Head" (Colossians 2:19)

--"the Church which is His body" was "raised with" and He "seated us with, in the heavenlies IN CHRIST" (that is, "positionally")... and if this "grave idea" pictures anything, it is that we, His body, have been existing (in our "state") with "the body of this death" (the SIN principle) which we carry around like a dead corpse (but which likes to bother us still). "Who shall DELIVER me from 'the body of this death'? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Romans 7:24-25; Romans 8 answers to this--see especially vv.1-13, v.11 "shall also quicken your mortal bodies [the ones we still live in] by [means of] His Spirit that dwelleth in you"). Later (whenever it happens), at the time of the resurrection/rapture of "the Church which is His body" (ONE body/all), we will be forever rid of "the SIN principle," the sin nature, and will be forever perfected. But this (and the timing of this) will be His doing, not ours (and my personal belief is that that time is already "fixed"... in other words, it does not depend on us)

--I would suggest that one thing which is "in the tomb/darkness" for 2000 years is (not "the Church," necessarily, but) "the kingdom" (which Israel is presently blinded to her King and Messiah, and of which "the Church which is His body" is not yet to be reigning, with Christ, over... but will be in the future, when He "comes"). Hosea 5:15-6:3 shows this, as I see it: "After two days will He revive us [Israel]: in the third day He will raise us [Israel] up, and we [Israel] shall live in His sight." "What shall the receiving of them [Israel] be, but life from the dead." Romans 11:15b


The problem I keep seeing though is that everyone wants to place scriptural applications they are not comfortable with on “someone else” – and NOT on the Christian Church itself. Unbelievers, heathens, Israel, the devil, etc. Everyone tries to avoid addressing the divided state of the Body of Christ and would rather coast by while choosing to not believe that any consequences could come about.

Again, (and again and again), the afflictions that happened to Christ during His suffering were living prophecies of what would be the state of His Church Body. His true image is unrecognizable to the world (Isaiah 52:14) because of the division (Paul says that division is a result of carnality) of His own people, who wear the carnal crown of the cares of this world (Luke 8:14) while blindfolded and in a state of Babylonian confusion. Moreso, just as He was dressed in purple and scarlet during His time of troubles (Mat 27:28 and Mark 15:17), so is the Babylonian harlot of Revelation 17 dressed in purple and scarlet. It’s ALL there in the scripture as living prophecy but most are too uncomfortable to face the implications. (This is not personally addressed to any particular individuals. It’s an overall problem.)





"KING" passages: (I think they're all there :) )

Matthew 2:2 "King of the Jews"
5:35 "Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King"
21:5 "Tell ye the daughter of Zion, 'Behold, thy King cometh unto thee'"
25:34, [v.40] [context 2nd Coming to the earth] "then shall the King say" ["before him shall be gathered all nations"]
27:11 "Art thou King of the Jews?" "Thou sayest."
27:29 "Hail, King of the Jews!"
27:37 "his accusation written, 'THIS IS JESUS THE KING OF THE JEWS.'"
27:42 "If He be King of Israel"

Mark 15:2 "Art thou King of the Jews?" "Thou sayest."
15:9 "Will ye that I release unto you the King of the Jews?"
15:12 "whom ye call the King of the Jews?"
15:18 "Hail, King of the Jews!"
15:26 "his accusation was written over, 'THE KING OF THE JEWS.'"
15:32 "Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross"

Luke 19:38 "Saying, 'Blessed be the King that cometh in the name of the Lord'"
23:2 "saying that He Himself is Christ a King."
23:3 "Art thou King of the Jews?" "Thou sayest."
23:37 "if thou be the king of the Jews, save thyself."
23:38 "written over Him... 'THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS'"

John 1:49 "Thou art the Son of God, Thou art the King of Israel."
6:15 "When Jesus perceived that they... take Him by force and make Him a king"
12:13 "'Blessed is the King of Israel that cometh in the name of the Lord.'"
12:15 "Fear not, daughter of Sion, behold, thy King cometh, sitting on an ass's colt."
18:33 "Art thou the King of the Jews?"
18:37 "Art thou a king then?" "Jesus answered, 'Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth.'"
18:39 "will ye therefore that I release unto you the King of the Jews?"
19:3 "Hail, King of the Jews!"
19:14 "and he saith unto the Jews, 'Behold your King!'"
19:15 "Pilate saith unto them, 'Shall I crucify your King?'"
19:19 "And the writing was, 'JESUS OF NAZARETH THE KING OF THE JEWS'"
19:21 "Write not 'The King of the Jews'; but that he said, 'I am King of the Jews'"

Acts 17:7ylt "whom Jason hath received; and these all do contrary to the decrees of Caesar, saying 'another [B]to be king -- Jesus.'"

Revelation 17:14 "and King of kings"
19:16 "a name written, 'KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.'"

Psalm 89:18 "the Holy One of Israel is our king."
149:2 "Let Israel rejoice in Him that made him: let the children of Zion be joyful in their King."

Isaiah 41:21 "Produce your cause, saith the LORD; bring forth your strong reasons, saith the King of Jacob."
43:15 "I am the LORD, your Holy One, the creator of Israel, your King."
44:6 "Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God."

Jeremiah 23:5 "Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth."

Zephaniah 3:14-15 "the King of Israel, even the Lord."



[and]

Jeremiah 10:7 "Who would not fear Thee, O King of nations?" (see also v.6/context)

Revelation 15:3 [possibly] "[them that had gotten the victory over the beast (trib period)] And they sing the song of Moses... and the song of the Lamb, saying, '... just and true are Thy ways, Thou King of nations [G1484].'" [some versions say "King of saints [G40]"]



--The only mention of "King" in the epistles (to, for, and about "the Church") is:

1 Timothy 1:17 "Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God..."

1 Timothy 6:15 "which in His times He shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings [the ones reigning], and Lord of lords [the ones ruling]."



"HEAD" passages:

Ephesians 1:22-23 "And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, which is His body"

4:15 "[For the edifying of the body of Christ...] But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ"

5:23 "For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body."

Colossians 1:18 "And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence."

2:10 "And ye [the Church which is His body] are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power"

2:19 "And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God."



I apologize for the length of this post. :D

(Summary: I don't entirely disagree with your idea, I just don't entirely agree with it either :) ... based on the above [and more].)

Again, I appreciate all the effort and research you have put in here! No need to apologize at all! The question is – just because He is the King of Israel, does this preclude Him from being the King of all? For instance, if He is the King of kings, and we who hope to reign are the kings, is He not our King? Are we not striving to enter the Kingdom? And if so, who then is the King of that Kingdom?

And I’m not totally sure what the emphasis is on the differences between the King and the Head. You seem to be implying that His Kingship doesn’t apply to the Church itself? And yes, He is supposed to be the Head of the Church, but as I have shown, the Church has not upheld Him as the head due to its carnal division. The Church’s head is wearing the crown of thorns, just as all who are in the Church wear that crown. When the Church awakens and realizes the need to flee the tomb, it will then replace its carnal head with the true Head – Immanuel, and He will return in glory!

Tomb Escapee
Dec 23rd 2013, 07:18 PM
I believe it happens because of one's misconceptions about what is literal in Scripture. Although, sometimes it is because of what is taught by a certain denomination's clergy, or, even, that denominations version of the Bible.

There have been days when I was doubtful about several things in the Bible. I believe those days are at an end, but, I try to listen, just in case I missed something and I read the Bible to keep my convictions strong.

If some of these topics hadn't been brought up, I would have no doubts, and, to paraphrase one of the Apostles, if I hadn't read the Law I wouldn't know how much sin there was to commit. Still, to believe things that are not clear in the Bible, and not stated in scripture, seems a futile, and unnecessarily distracting exercise.


The problem is, there are mass disagreements over what is actually “clear in the Bible” and “stated in scripture.” Two devout Christians can look at the same passage and have contrasting interpretations of it. This is a problem, no?



Disunity in the Churches is the fault of the Adversary, and no one else. To the extent that some willingly and knowingly propagate falsehoods in doctrine is definitely detrimental to their salvation. Of course, if any are taken in by incorrect teachings, their salvation could be in jeopardy:

"Those that lead into captivity, shall go into captivity..."-Rev 13:10

Again, those in the Church seem to desire to hold no self-accountability whatsoever, and always have something or someone else to blame for its less than perfect state. (“The devil made me do it.”) It very much reminds me of the state of the Laodecian Church:

Revelation 3
17 You say, ‘I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.’ But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked.

dan
Dec 24th 2013, 08:14 AM
The problem is, there are mass disagreements over what is actually “clear in the Bible” and “stated in scripture.” Two devout Christians can look at the same passage and have contrasting interpretations of it. This is a problem, no?

Yes, it is a problem.

Does the Bible say that many would come to lead us astray? Yes it does.

Does the Bible say that believers should talk about scripture and show others where the truth lay?

Yes, it does.

Should a person that can't accept what is in the Bible be forced to submit to the will of the forum administrators?

Probably not, he should be convinced through evidence by his brethren. (And while he's being convinced, the arguments are there for all to see and benefit.)

Will someone that is purposefully misrepresenting the Bible confess to such? I don't think so.


Again, those in the Church seem to desire to hold no self-accountability whatsoever, and always have something or someone else to blame for its less than perfect state. (“The devil made me do it.”) It very much reminds me of the state of the Laodecian Church:

Revelation 3
17 You say, ‘I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.’ But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked.

The Bible says to search diligently for God, it does not say it will always be easy to find Him.

I declare that scripture, "Prophecy Fulfilled."

bunnymuldare
Dec 24th 2013, 08:01 PM
Dan,

To me reading the Bible without the Holy Spirit is like reading a contract without ever meeting the person involved.
It would be like setting up a picture of a woman you never met in your office and calling her your wife. It would be awkward if anybody asked what she was like. The best you could do is show them the marriage certificate and say, See, it says right here for better or worse, she will never leave me.

I'm going to pray everyone here is going to get the baptism.

Romans 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

How will you know? As your mother used to say, When real love comes along you'll know it. Amen?

bunnymuldare
Dec 24th 2013, 08:06 PM
With men it is impossible. But with God all things are possible!!

Zechariah 4:6
Then he said to me, “This is the word of the LORD to Zerubbabel: Not by might, nor by power, but by my Spirit, says the LORD of hosts.

Well said, Mr. Scooby Snacks.

Scooby_Snacks
Dec 25th 2013, 03:30 AM
I agree that the Word is living and active and has applications that stretch across time, but from the perspective of the readers of those epistles 2,000 years ago, were not the epistle writers writing to them as if expecting the coming of the Kingdom in that time? The only thing that matters here is whether or not one can confess that the epistle writers were ignorant to the timing of Christ’s coming, and had written in such a way that they expected that coming in their lifetimes.

I believe there is much more that matters here.



Again, however, to say something is “inerrant” when statements made about Christ’s return were written as though He would be coming back at that time is not logical – unless we completely redefine the meaning of the word “inerrant.” If I type on these forums that Christ will be coming back in our lifetimes and we are in the end times and should be prepared, and 1,000 years from now, He still hasn’t returned and someone pulls up my posts from the archives, would they look at my declarations as erroneous or as inerrant? Of course, erroneous. What then would be the only difference between my erroneous statement and those of the epistle writers? The fact that theirs are “in the Bible” would of course be the answer of most Christians. So, it is only blind indoctrination that causes one to call something “inerrant” that clearly is erroneous.

I only use the word inerrant because from my experience and testimony of my life, all of scripture is God Breathed, and the term is easily understood by others, a term I never used until recently.

What is illogical to me, is to believe that only parts of scripture could be absolute God Breathed Truth, (alive) while others are not due to human imperfections marring their Divine authenticity. (not alive)
It has to be one or the other, because if it is both, all interpretation can only be of human ascent, and not spiritually discerned.

Apostles speaking of the time coming near coupled with the description of 1000 years (ours) are like 1 day (to God) it makes perfect sense.
Everything is near to God who is eternal than compared to temporal humans.
But those who are born again are no longer just temporal.
The Holy Spirit speaks through Peter the time is near. The Holy Spirit speaks to our spirit.
Eternal years are nothing compared to our temporal human years on earth.
I do believe my spirit lives eternally, and that part of me yearns for my eternal home, knowing that time is drawing near...but I am currently here for the time being as God gives me opportunity to live a human experience and to have joy during it through Him.
It sometimes seems a very long time of waiting, but holds no comparison to living eternally in joy when it is time with no more tears.



A lack of desire to think more deeply is a lack of desire to attain true knowledge (Jesus defines eternal life as knowledge - GNOSIS - in the Gospel of John). To refuse knowledge means one is without knowledge, which is defined by the term agnostic - and this is an idea that Christians generally condemn, is it not?

Having knowledge without wisdom is like having teeth without gums to hold their power in place.


Do you “not need to think more deeply” because there are uncomfortable elements that come along with doing so? Is it easier to go on insisting on being able to see while blind than it is to confess being blind so that more heavenly knowledge can be gained? Is it easier to remain among the 99 sheep who get left in the wilderness (the tomb of the Church Age) than it is to become the lost sheep that is taken home to a joyful celebration?

I will clarify that I did not need to think more deeply about the interpretations of scripture you proposed because when weighted/tested against scripture they did not stand the test IMO.
Also, your interpretations have brought with them an unjust judgment of me.
If you were showing works of faith from God they would not be absent of love for others, but that love would be the compelling force.




Is it easier to feel no need to repent because you are already a Christian than it is to face the implications of having to awaken and escape the tomb that the divided and carnal Body of Christ has been slumbering in?

Again, your own interpretations have caused unrighteous judgment to come from you toward me, and that tells me quite a bit.

Tomb Escapee
Dec 26th 2013, 02:19 PM
I believe there is much more that matters here.


I only use the word inerrant because from my experience and testimony of my life, all of scripture is God Breathed, and the term is easily understood by others, a term I never used until recently.

What is illogical to me, is to believe that only parts of scripture could be absolute God Breathed Truth, (alive) while others are not due to human imperfections marring their Divine authenticity. (not alive)
It has to be one or the other, because if it is both, all interpretation can only be of human ascent, and not spiritually discerned.

Perhaps you remember some of my earlier replies, when I upheld the notion of unquestionable Divine Sovereignty over the Bible while also acknowledging that there are elements about it that could not be considered fully and literally inerrant. I assume you know that there have been hundreds, if not thousands, of alterations and corrections to the King James Bible over the years, since it was first produced. Does this not unequivocally show that the Bible has been subjected to, as you say, “human imperfections marring the Divine authenticity” of the Scriptures? And if God has allowed (or caused) such imperfections to infiltrate the Word in such ways, how can it be ruled out that divinely orchestrated imperfections have not been Biblically incorporated in other ways? (That is, through a mixture of Truth and error in the Epistles.)

Also, is it not evident and obvious that the Church Body interprets scripture through human ascent (as you have described it) by way of the many differing theological perspectives within it? More than anything, what has me convinced that the Body of Christ is entombed and asleep is the fact that those within it continue to insist that they are being led by the Holy Spirit – when there are countless clashing and contradicting views within Christianity. This is the ultimate verification that eyes are being willingly kept shut to reality by those within the Church.


Apostles speaking of the time coming near coupled with the description of 1000 years (ours) are like 1 day (to God) it makes perfect sense.
Everything is near to God who is eternal than compared to temporal humans.
But those who are born again are no longer just temporal.
The Holy Spirit speaks through Peter the time is near. The Holy Spirit speaks to our spirit.
Eternal years are nothing compared to our temporal human years on earth.

You present a worthy objection by way of the 1,000 years = 1 day comparison, but that does not account for the fact that the Epistle writers often wrote in such a way that specifically implies that the readers of the Epistles would be alive to see the return of Christ. This is, by and large, the impression that they were under; and it was erroneous.


I do believe my spirit lives eternally, and that part of me yearns for my eternal home, knowing that time is drawing near...but I am currently here for the time being as God gives me opportunity to live a human experience and to have joy during it through Him.
It sometimes seems a very long time of waiting, but holds no comparison to living eternally in joy when it is time with no more tears.

This is all well and good, but the key (for all in the Church) is to awaken and realize that this “human experience” of a flesh existence is actually an imprisoning matrix from which we must be set free. Until this is realized on a mass scale, Christ will not come in His Kingdom and men will continue going down to the dust in death. As it stands now, those in the Church have no desire for Christ to return, for if they did, He would have done so by now. Men, whether they realize it or not, would rather slumber and keep their attachments to this temporal existence than release their ego and welcome Immanuel. This necessitates a mass repentance and awakening.



Having knowledge without wisdom is like having teeth without gums to hold their power in place.

Yes, and credit is given for a savvy reply, but this does not really address relevant themes here.


I will clarify that I did not need to think more deeply about the interpretations of scripture you proposed because when weighted/tested against scripture they did not stand the test IMO.
Also, your interpretations have brought with them an unjust judgment of me.
If you were showing works of faith from God they would not be absent of love for others, but that love would be the compelling force.

Again, your own interpretations have caused unrighteous judgment to come from you toward me, and that tells me quite a bit.

It is unfortunate that you feel this way, but I believe if you look at the larger perspective with a fair analysis, there have been no judgments on you or anyone else. I stand in judgment of no one. I am merely an optimist who must first hold the place of a realist in order to bring about a beneficial change of direction for all mankind. Because I ask questions that intend to cause one to explore unfamiliar places within, ultimately for the purpose of awakening, does not imply individual judgment. We are all in the same boat – or tomb, I should say. We are all trapped in the darkened Matrix under the dominion of the adversary. Awakening the brethren to this uncomfortable truth is my primary goal, so that we can all put off the flesh and take our places in the Kingdom!

Diggindeeper
Dec 26th 2013, 06:12 PM
MEDIATOR NOTE: Thread is being closed for Mod review.

amazzin
Dec 26th 2013, 06:17 PM
Thread has been reviewed and it goes against our rules about "Getting out of the Church".

It will not be re-opened

TheDivineWatermark
Dec 26th 2013, 06:48 PM
Originally Posted by TheDivineWatermark

While I think the writers may not have understood everything completely, I do believe the Holy Spirit had them write exactly what He wanted written (for our [the readers'] benefit). In the various passages you posted earlier (which I did look up at the time, but haven't had time to respond like I'd like), including the verse I quote above, I believe these are in the "plural" for a specific reason: i.e. "for our admonition, upon whom the ENDS [plural] of the AGES [plural] are come." This is not the same as the phrase "the END of the AGE" --Matthew 13:39-40, 49, 24:3--(which I believe refers specifically to the time of His Second Coming to the earth [to judge and to reign], for the start of the promised earthly Millennial Kingdom [the kingdom age]), so whether or not Paul understood that there would be a 2000-year period does not mean the words he wrote, inspired by the Holy Spirit, were not precisely accurate. I believe they were (are).

Plural where He intended plural, singular where He intended singular... each meaning their own very precise thing.


Your point is well taken concerning the idea of the culmination of the ages being different than the actual end of the age or the ages, but with an honest overall analysis of the Epistles, I don’t think there can be any doubt about the fact that the writers were more than partially convinced that Christ was returning in their lifetimes.

So yes, while God’s sovereignty has ultimately prompted what was written in the Epistles, I must again say that does not necessitate that everything recorded in them was what we should consider to be 100% “accurate.” Just as God’s sovereignty foresaw the fall of man, even though they “weren’t supposed to” eat from the tree of knowledge; and just as his sovereignty foresaw the wickedness of man before the flood that caused him to wipe out mankind that he himself created. While these could be considered “mistakes,” they were nonetheless a part of the grand plan that could have been pre-emptively stopped by God if desired.

The same is true with the shortsightedness of the Epistle writers. The sheer fact alone that the writers penned their works in a way that implied the coming of Christ in their lifetimes is enough to show that they wrote them in a time of darkness, is it not? Just as Christ prophesied in John 9:4-5.

Jesus, Light of the world, said (while STILL IN the world, and BEFORE going to His own darkened grave):

Matthew 23:39 "[To Jerusalem] For I say unto YOU, YE shall not see Me henceforth, till YE say, Blessed is He that cometh in the name of the Lord."


--That will not happen until His Second Coming (which hasn't happened yet), yet Jesus makes it sound like it will happen in their lifetime. Was He "in the dark" (while still in the world) or deliberately deceiving? OR was He "speaking prophetically" of that future time? I believe He was speaking prophetically.



7x in verses 4-14 (describing the first half of the future [to us] tribulation period, when "the beginning of birth pangs" [which match with the first seals of Revelation 6] take place ["all these are"]):

Matthew 24:4 "Take YE heed that no man deceive YOU."
24:6 "And YE shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that YE be not troubled"
24:9 "THEN shall they deliver YOU up to be afflicted, and shall kill YOU: and YE shall be hated of all nations for My name's sake."



16x in verses 15-44 (describing the second half of the future [to us] tribulation period, when "THEN shall be GREAT tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor shall ever be" will occur):

Matthew 24:15 "When YE therefore shall see the abomination of desolation..."
24:20 "But pray YE that YOUR flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day"
24:23 "THEN if any man shall say unto YOU, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not."
24:25 "Behold, I have told YOU before[hand]."
24:26 "Wherefore if they shall say unto YOU, Behold, He is in the desert; go YE not forth: behold, He is in the secret chambers; believe YE it not."
24:33 "So likewise YE, when YE shall see all these things, know that it [His Second Coming to the earth] is near, even at the doors."
24:34 "Verily I say unto YOU, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."
24:42 "Watch YE therefore: for YE know not what hour YOUR Lord doth come."
24:44 "Therefore be YE also ready: for in such and hour as YE think not the Son of man cometh ["the Son of man cometh" phrases ALL refer to His Second Coming to the earth]."


--Now, if Jesus could speak prophetically of that future time period (all the while using the words "YE" and "YOU" and "YOUR," and with not an iota of "darkness" nor "deceiving or being deceived"), then I believe it is perfectly understandable/reasonable/sensible that Paul (for example) was also "speaking/writing prophetically" (specifically of "THE [corporate] CHURCH WHICH IS HIS BODY") when he said, "For this we say unto YOU BY [means of] THE WORD OF THE LORD that WE which are alive and remain unto the parousia of the Lord shall not precede them which are asleep."

--It makes no difference whether Paul "knew" or "did not know" that there would be "2000 years" intervening. He DID know (accurately and because he was given to know these truths regarding "the body of Christ" by the risen and ASCENDED Christ), and spoke/wrote prophetically, that "the Church which is His body" will be "caught up" together with them (the "dead IN Christ") "in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air"... This will not be the case with those who will experience the tribulation period on the earth (because they weren't saved yet), and will be awaiting His Second Coming to the earth, when He "comes" as KING, to judge and to reign (and we, "the Church" come WITH HIM at that time).

--The epistle writers were given just exactly what the Holy Spirit (and the ascended Christ) wanted the Word to say ... we just need to understand when they were given to "speak/write prophetically," in the same way that Jesus spoke to "his disciples" prophetically, even when He was in the world as Light of the world, and was not in darkness (though He Himself admitted that, at the time He spoke it [in the time of His more self-limited humanity], He Himself did not "know the day nor the hour" of His Second Coming to the earth. I believe He KNEW perfectly after His resurrection/ascension!)



Originally Posted by Tomb Escapee

You present a worthy objection by way of the 1,000 years = 1 day comparison, but that does not account for the fact that the Epistle writers often wrote in such a way that specifically implies that the readers of the Epistles would be alive to see the return of Christ. This is, by and large, the impression that they were under; and it was erroneous.


Totally disagree. Ephesians 4 says He (the ascended Christ) "gave gifts to men" so that we wouldn't be in the dark as to His plans!

amazzin
Dec 26th 2013, 06:49 PM
Re-post.........


Thread has been reviewed and it goes against our rules about "Getting out of the Church".

It will not be re-opened