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Christinme
Dec 8th 2013, 10:33 AM
I've heard some say that the following say that this means Jesus loved/s the apostle John more than the other apostles.

John 13:23 There was reclining on Jesus’ bosom one of His disciples, whom Jesus loved.

John 21:20 Peter, turning around, *saw the disciple whom Jesus loved following them; the one who also had leaned back on His bosom at the supper and said, “Lord, who is the one who betrays You?” (NASB)

I don't see it that way. These were written in the Gospel of John and I think that is just how John referred to himself along with referring to himself as the "Beloved Disciple" in a number of other verses. If anything as far as comparison it would say to me that John was the only one Jesus loved not that Jesus loved him most. But I don't think it was meant as any type of comparison I think that it was only how John referred to himself.

cindyt
Dec 8th 2013, 10:57 AM
I agree with you. For there is no respect of persons with God. Romans 2:11.

Walls
Dec 8th 2013, 12:24 PM
I've heard some say that the following say that this means Jesus loved/s the apostle John more than the other apostles.

John 13:23 There was reclining on Jesus’ bosom one of His disciples, whom Jesus loved.

John 21:20 Peter, turning around, *saw the disciple whom Jesus loved following them; the one who also had leaned back on His bosom at the supper and said, “Lord, who is the one who betrays You?” (NASB)

I don't see it that way. These were written in the Gospel of John and I think that is just how John referred to himself along with referring to himself as the "Beloved Disciple" in a number of other verses. If anything as far as comparison it would say to me that John was the only one Jesus loved not that Jesus loved him most. But I don't think it was meant as any type of comparison I think that it was only how John referred to himself.

I think that God can have favorites. He treats all equally before Law, that is, He is no respecter of persons in matters judicial. But He might favor one above the other in affection. He loved Israel more than the other nations and He loved Jacob but hated Esau. But the issue in the matter of the five-times mention of "the disicple whom Jesus loved" is that the disciple that Jesus loved outperformed the others every time.

In;

John 13:22-25; "Then the disciples looked one on another, doubting of whom he spake. Now there was leaning on Jesus' bosom one of his disciples, whom Jesus loved. Simon Peter therefore beckoned to him, that he should ask who it should be of whom he spake. He then lying on Jesus' breast saith unto him, Lord, who is it?" Here, Peter must ask a disciple, but the disciple whom Jesus loved may ask the Lord directly.
John 19:26; "When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son!" Here, John is chosen above the others to care for His mother, a woman without a male in the house - a dire situation in the old culture.
John 20:2-4; "Then she runneth, and cometh to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple, whom Jesus loved, and saith unto them, They have taken away the Lord out of the sepulchre, and we know not where they have laid him. Peter therefore went forth, and that other disciple, and came to the sepulchre. So they ran both together: and the other disciple did outrun Peter, and came first to the sepulchre." Here, Peter starts before John but John got there first.
John 21:7; "Therefore that disciple whom Jesus loved saith unto Peter, It is the Lord. Now when Simon Peter heard that it was the Lord, he girt his fisher's coat unto him, (for he was naked,) and did cast himself into the sea." Here, John is first to recognize the Lord.
John 21:20-23; "Then Peter, turning about, seeth the disciple whom Jesus loved following; which also leaned on his breast at supper, and said, Lord, which is he that betrayeth thee? Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do? Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me. Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?" Here, John is allowed to live longer than Peter and write more of scripture.

I doubt if this is coincidence. The Holy Spirit never wastes words. The profit I get out of it is that it is better to depend on Christ's love for you, rather than your love for Him.

Christinme
Dec 8th 2013, 12:42 PM
I think that God can have favorites. He treats all equally before Law, that is, He is no respecter of persons in matters judicial. But He might favor one above the other in affection. He loved Israel more than the other nations and He loved Jacob but hated Esau.I don't think Romans 2:11 (quoted in post 2) is referring just to the law. And I see as far as Israel and Jacob is concerned that it is that God has a specific purpose for them that He doesn't have for the others, not that they were "favorite".



But the issue in the matter of the five-times mention of "the disicple whom Jesus loved" is that the disciple that Jesus loved outperformed the others every time.

In;

John 13:22-25; "Then the disciples looked one on another, doubting of whom he spake. Now there was leaning on Jesus' bosom one of his disciples, whom Jesus loved. Simon Peter therefore beckoned to him, that he should ask who it should be of whom he spake. He then lying on Jesus' breast saith unto him, Lord, who is it?" Here, Peter must ask a disciple, but the disciple whom Jesus loved may ask the Lord directly.
John 19:26; "When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son!" Here, John is chosen above the others to care for His mother, a woman without a male in the house - a dire situation in the old culture.
John 20:2-4; "Then she runneth, and cometh to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple, whom Jesus loved, and saith unto them, They have taken away the Lord out of the sepulchre, and we know not where they have laid him. Peter therefore went forth, and that other disciple, and came to the sepulchre. So they ran both together: and the other disciple did outrun Peter, and came first to the sepulchre." Here, Peter starts before John but John got there first.
John 21:7; "Therefore that disciple whom Jesus loved saith unto Peter, It is the Lord. Now when Simon Peter heard that it was the Lord, he girt his fisher's coat unto him, (for he was naked,) and did cast himself into the sea." Here, John is first to recognize the Lord.
John 21:20-23; "Then Peter, turning about, seeth the disciple whom Jesus loved following; which also leaned on his breast at supper, and said, Lord, which is he that betrayeth thee? Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do? Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me. Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?" Here, John is allowed to live longer than Peter and write more of scripture.

I doubt if this is coincidence. The Holy Spirit never wastes words. The profit I get out of it is that it is better to depend on Christ's love for you, rather than your love for Him.Yes God's love is DEPENDABLE. I'm still not sure if you are saying then that this is saying John was Jesus's favorite.

cuban
Dec 8th 2013, 02:31 PM
Who was the only apostle that did not flee at Christ's crucifixion? The apostle of Love.

Christinme
Dec 8th 2013, 03:02 PM
Who was the only apostle that did not flee at Christ's crucifixion? The apostle of Love.I could see that it might be that John was the apostle who loved Jesus most, just not the other way around.

Curtis
Dec 8th 2013, 03:07 PM
Jesus loves us by revealing himself to us. Revelation of Jesus is directly proportional to how much we think about him. Think little see little, think a lot, see a lot. This thinking on Jesus is called "repentance", changing our mind and setting our hearts on the things above. Jesus revealed himself unto John because he John loved Jesus, and Jesus loved him back. God always keeps his favorite things in a very special place, in Christ.

Walls
Dec 8th 2013, 07:52 PM
I don't think Romans 2:11 (quoted in post 2) is referring just to the law. And I see as far as Israel and Jacob is concerned that it is that God has a specific purpose for them that He doesn't have for the others, not that they were "favorite".


Yes God's love is DEPENDABLE. I'm still not sure if you are saying then that this is saying John was Jesus's favorite.

I think you have changed your question. Love is an emotion. "Purpose" is a function of the will. I will stick to what the Word says. Deuteronomy 7 says that the reason God chose Israel was that He loved them. The implication is that although God loves all men, He found a love for Israel that made Him choose. And if one is loved and the other is hated by God, and the language is plain, I go with that too.

But I grant you that the love of The Lord Jesus for Peter and John cannot be differentiated by scripture.

TrustGzus
Dec 8th 2013, 08:08 PM
I don't think Jesus loved John more than the others. I was at a pastors' conference several years ago and Chuck Smith proposed while teaching a main session on the first evening that he thought perhaps each of the apostles felt that they were the special one because of how Jesus would treat them when interacting with them.

TheDivineWatermark
Dec 8th 2013, 08:13 PM
I've heard some say that the following say that this means Jesus loved/s the apostle John more than the other apostles.

John 13:23 There was reclining on Jesus’ bosom one of His disciples, whom Jesus loved.

John 21:20 Peter, turning around, *saw the disciple whom Jesus loved following them; the one who also had leaned back on His bosom at the supper and said, “Lord, who is the one who betrays You?” (NASB)

I don't see it that way. These were written in the Gospel of John and I think that is just how John referred to himself along with referring to himself as the "Beloved Disciple" in a number of other verses. If anything as far as comparison it would say to me that John was the only one Jesus loved not that Jesus loved him most. But I don't think it was meant as any type of comparison I think that it was only how John referred to himself.


Originally Posted by Walls

I think that God can have favorites. He treats all equally before Law, that is, He is no respecter of persons in matters judicial. But He might favor one above the other in affection. He loved Israel more than the other nations and He loved Jacob but hated Esau. But the issue in the matter of the five-times mention of "the disicple whom Jesus loved" is that the disciple that Jesus loved outperformed the others every time.

In;
1.John 13:22-25; "Then the disciples looked one on another, doubting of whom he spake. Now there was leaning on Jesus' bosom one of his disciples, whom Jesus loved. Simon Peter therefore beckoned to him, that he should ask who it should be of whom he spake. He then lying on Jesus' breast saith unto him, Lord, who is it?" Here, Peter must ask a disciple, but the disciple whom Jesus loved may ask the Lord directly.
2.John 19:26; "When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son!" Here, John is chosen above the others to care for His mother, a woman without a male in the house - a dire situation in the old culture.
3.John 20:2-4; "Then she runneth, and cometh to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple, whom Jesus loved, and saith unto them, They have taken away the Lord out of the sepulchre, and we know not where they have laid him. Peter therefore went forth, and that other disciple, and came to the sepulchre. So they ran both together: and the other disciple did outrun Peter, and came first to the sepulchre." Here, Peter starts before John but John got there first.
4.John 21:7; "Therefore that disciple whom Jesus loved saith unto Peter, It is the Lord. Now when Simon Peter heard that it was the Lord, he girt his fisher's coat unto him, (for he was naked,) and did cast himself into the sea." Here, John is first to recognize the Lord.
5.John 21:20-23; "Then Peter, turning about, seeth the disciple whom Jesus loved following; which also leaned on his breast at supper, and said, Lord, which is he that betrayeth thee? Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do? Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me. Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?" Here, John is allowed to live longer than Peter and write more of scripture.

I doubt if this is coincidence. The Holy Spirit never wastes words. The profit I get out of it is that it is better to depend on Christ's love for you, rather than your love for Him.


I quoted Walls' post also because I'm grateful he brings scripture to bear on the subject.

I do believe that this one was "the disciple whom Jesus loved," but I don't believe that person was "John." I realize that is the popular understanding (and I am aware of the usual objections... but I'm not interested in going into that kind of debate here), I just thought I would point out his excellent use of scripture, as those are the passages I would also point out (...noting that in no place does the scripture identify "the disciple whom Jesus loved" [etc] as John). There are also some things in typology which make the study that much more interesting (not that we start there, of course).

Just my two cents. :) And those passages (and some of the general ideas) presented by Walls are appreciated! :thumbsup:

Nick
Dec 8th 2013, 09:40 PM
John was undoubtedly Jesus's favorite. John escaped severe persecution and was exiled to an Island. Tradition has it that they tried to poison him but it didn't work. God had other plans for John and it wasn't his time. Jesus also chose to give John the Book of Revelation, which I'm sure had to do with his deep affection for John. When Peter asked how John was to die Jesus rebuked him, sort of in a protecting manner. Yes, John was, in my opinion, Jesus's favorite disciple. And God has favored certain people all throughout history.

Christinme
Dec 13th 2013, 12:12 PM
John was undoubtedly Jesus's favorite. John escaped severe persecution and was exiled to an Island. Tradition has it that they tried to poison him but it didn't work. God had other plans for John and it wasn't his time. Jesus also chose to give John the Book of Revelation, which I'm sure had to do with his deep affection for John. When Peter asked how John was to die Jesus rebuked him, sort of in a protecting manner. Yes, John was, in my opinion, Jesus's favorite disciple. And God has favored certain people all throughout history.God has given certain people certain responsibilities throughout history and that included in many cases "extra" understanding. However ...

Luke 12:48 ... From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more.

Aviyah
Dec 13th 2013, 03:17 PM
Doesn't it say somewhere that it's a sin to have favorite children? Maybe this was just conjecture from my pastor when I was little on the subject of Jacob and Joseph.

jayne
Dec 13th 2013, 03:31 PM
Doesn't it say somewhere that it's a sin to have favorite children? Maybe this was just conjecture from my pastor when I was little on the subject of Jacob and Joseph.

I can't find a particular scripture on favoritism towards children, but here a link with lots of scripture explicitly stating that favoritism in general is a sin.

Is favoritism a sin? (http://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-favoritism.html)

cuban
Dec 15th 2013, 04:33 AM
John was undoubtedly Jesus's favorite. John escaped severe persecution and was exiled to an Island. Tradition has it that they tried to poison him but it didn't work. God had other plans for John and it wasn't his time. Jesus also chose to give John the Book of Revelation, which I'm sure had to do with his deep affection for John. When Peter asked how John was to die Jesus rebuked him, sort of in a protecting manner. Yes, John was, in my opinion, Jesus's favorite disciple. And God has favored certain people all throughout history.

I believe your final statement is the key, brother Nick. One need not be the favorite, in order to be favored.



I could see that it might be that John was the apostle who loved Jesus most, just not the other way around.

I agree, and I only intended to show the deep adoration of the apostle who laid his head upon Christ's bosom. The one who was so privileged to pen the last pages of Scripture.

John = Jehovah is a gracious giver

H3076

John, Joannes, Jochanan
יהוחנן
yehôchânân
yeh-ho-khaw-nawn'

From H3068 and H2603; Jehovah-favored; Jehochanan, the name of eight Israelites: - Jehohanan, Johanan. Compare H3110.

H2603
חנן
chânan
khaw-nan'
A primitive root (compare H2583); properly to bend or stoop in kindness to an inferior; to favor, bestow; causatively to implore (that is, move to favor by petition): - beseech, X fair, (be, find, shew) favour (-able), be (deal, give, grant (gracious (-ly), intreat, (be) merciful, have (shew) mercy (on, upon), have pity upon, pray, make supplication, X very.


Love to you.

Nick
Dec 15th 2013, 06:41 AM
Doesn't it say somewhere that it's a sin to have favorite children? Maybe this was just conjecture from my pastor when I was little on the subject of Jacob and Joseph.

How could it be a sin to have favorite children? It was almost encouraged with the birthright and blessing for the firstborn. Look at all the issues it created, starting with Isaac and Ishmael. You could even go back to Cain and Abel and see how Abel was favored and what happened as a result of favoring Abel. I bought my 11 year old a phone tonight and my 6 year old felt we were favoring the older son. He's been moping all night claiming no one loves him.

Is showing favoritism a sin? That's the bigger question. James in particular rebukes those that show favoritism using the rich and the poor as the example. The title of James chapter 2 is "The sin of Partiality", and elsewhere it says at least a couple times, maybe more, that God is impartial and shows no favoritism. In James 2:1-13, one can infer that showing partiality of any kind towards anyone is considered a serious sin. If you think about it, favoritism is the antithesis of love and a transgression of God's law. The Royal Law James is referring to in verse 8 is the Royal Law of Love.

Favoritism also breaks the OT command to treat the poor equitably and Lev 19:18 "You shall not take vengeance or bear a grudge against the sons of your own people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the Lord." I don't see how showing favoritism to anyone doesn't violate the "love your neighbor" law in the OT and NT. God doesn't have to obey His laws. He can and certainly has shown favoritism boards certain individuals at the micro level and nations at the macro level, in my opinion. He showed favoritism towards Noah, Abraham, Moses, Joshua, David, Daniel and on through the list. If Jesus is Yahweh of the OT then he is the same God that favored Abraham and the apostle John.

Christinme
Dec 15th 2013, 08:57 AM
God doesn't have to obey His laws.I don't agree with this at all. I don't see God as one who says "Do what I say not what I do."

Christinme
Dec 15th 2013, 09:04 AM
God has given certain people certain responsibilities throughout history and that included in many cases "extra" understanding. However ...

Luke 12:48 ... From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more.I want to expand on this more. God may have "favored" some in the way of giving them certain responsibilities above other's, however this does not mean God loved them more than others.

Nick
Dec 16th 2013, 02:49 AM
I don't agree with this at all. I don't see God as one who says "Do what I say not what I do."

What does God say about vengeance? And what does He tell us to do with vengeance? What about wrath? God intensely hates and responds with anger to all sin and rebellion. God hates every threat to what He loves. Are we to do the same? God should be greatly feared. Unbelievers should fear His judgment and turn to Christ for salvation. Believers should fear God’s fatherly discipline. The God who loves us is also the holy God who hates sin. Should believers and unbelievers fear us? As I may have mentioned before, a study on God's attributes might be beneficial for you. In the meantime, here are some verses to ponder. God destroys His enemies yet we are to love them.

ESV Bible:



“Then the kings of the earth and the great ones and the generals and the rich and the powerful, and everyone, slave and free, hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains, calling to the mountains and rocks, ‘Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb’” (Rev. 6:15–16; cf. Ex. 34:7; Rom. 1:18; 2:4; 2 Cor. 5:10; 2 Thess. 1:5; 2 Pet. 3:9).

Christinme
Dec 16th 2013, 07:12 AM
God doesn't have to obey His laws.

I don't agree with this at all. I don't see God as one who says "Do what I say not what I do."

What does God say about vengeance? And what does He tell us to do with vengeance? What about wrath? God intensely hates and responds with anger to all sin and rebellion. God hates every threat to what He loves. Are we to do the same? God should be greatly feared. Unbelievers should fear His judgment and turn to Christ for salvation. Believers should fear God’s fatherly discipline. The God who loves us is also the holy God who hates sin. Should believers and unbelievers fear us? As I may have mentioned before, a study on God's attributes might be beneficial for you. In the meantime, here are some verses to ponder. God destroys His enemies yet we are to love them.

ESV Bible:



“Then the kings of the earth and the great ones and the generals and the rich and the powerful, and everyone, slave and free, hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains, calling to the mountains and rocks, ‘Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb’” (Rev. 6:15–16; cf. Ex. 34:7; Rom. 1:18; 2:4; 2 Cor. 5:10; 2 Thess. 1:5; 2 Pet. 3:9).

God is not breaking His law there, and yes agreed that vengence is His (something we in general are not to do), however God does put rulers and soldiers (some of who are Christian) in place whose job it is to take vengence, it's just not the job of an everyday Christian. So I don't find that an adequate example of God breaking His own law.

There is more concerning His wrath that we can learn.

Jonah 3:2-3 “Arise, go to Nineveh the great city and proclaim to it the proclamation which I am going to tell you.” So Jonah arose and went to Nineveh according to the word of the Lord. Now Nineveh was an exceedingly great city, a three days’ walk. Then Jonah began to go through the city one day’s walk; and he cried out and said, “Yet forty days and Nineveh will be overthrown.”

Jonah 3:10 When God saw their deeds, that they turned from their wicked way, then God relented concerning the calamity which He had declared He would [e]bring upon them. And He did not do it.

Jonah 4:2 ... for I knew that You are a gracious and compassionate God, slow to anger and abundant in lovingkindness, and one who relents concerning calamity. (NASB)

God repented of His wrath even though He said He was going to do it. BECAUSE he is "a gracious and compassionate God, slow to anger and abundant in lovingkindness, and one who relents concerning calamity." So when I study God's attributes I see His lovingkindness TRUMPING (outranking) His wrath, although I realize that some somehow see His Love and Wrath to be on equal ground.

Nick
Dec 17th 2013, 02:32 AM
God's law for us is to love our enemies. He doesn't obey that law. Period. There's really no debating that. He set the laws and we are to follow them. He is above the law. Are we to judge our brother or sister or love them? We don't share all of God's attributes. Does He command Himself to love Himself with all His heart and with all His soul and with all His mind?? Think about how silly that sounds.

Christinme
Dec 17th 2013, 07:40 AM
God's law for us is to love our enemies. He doesn't obey that law. Period. There's really no debating that. He set the laws and we are to follow them. He is above the law. Are we to judge our brother or sister or love them? We don't share all of God's attributes. Does He command Himself to love Himself with all His heart and with all His soul and with all His mind?? Think about how silly that sounds.Well I do believe That God loves his enemies, where else can our love for them come from but from Him, I can't generate in myself love. And I think you are going to the silly ends of this conversation :P, lol. And yes agreed we are not judges doesn't mean God breaks His own laws, some just aren't relative to Him.

TheDivineWatermark
Dec 18th 2013, 01:29 AM
Just thought I would bring one (of a number) of scriptural witnesses which seem to speak fairly clearly AGAINST the idea that "John" was "the disciple whom Jesus loved" (keeping in mind that Scripture never says that it was John... and never calls "the disciple whom Jesus loved" an apostle, for that matter)... again, not wanting to get into a debate over it, simply wanting to point out one (of a number) of incidents that seem to rule out the "John" idea, for anyone who might be interested.


Just as food for thought, consider the following two passages:


John 20:1-9 (early in the day of His resurrection)

1 The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.
2 Then she runneth, and cometh to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple, whom Jesus loved, and saith unto them, They have taken away the Lord out of the sepulchre, and we know not where they have laid him.
3 Peter therefore went forth, and that other disciple, and came to the sepulchre.
4 So they ran both together: and the other disciple did outrun Peter, and came first to the sepulchre.
5 And he stooping down, and looking in, saw the linen clothes lying; yet went he not in.
6 Then cometh Simon Peter following him, and went into the sepulchre, and seeth the linen clothes lie,
7 And the napkin, that was about his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together in a place by itself.
8 Then went in also that other disciple, which came first to the sepulchre, and he saw, and believed.
9 For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead



--the passage makes specific note of the fact that "the other disciple, whom Jesus loved" "saw [the linen clothes], and believed"
Why?




Mark 16:9-14 (later in the day, verse 14 after the events of verse 13)

9 Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.
10 And she went and told them that had been with him, as they mourned and wept.
11 And they, when they had heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, believed not.
12 After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.
13 And they went and told it unto the residue: neither believed they them.
14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.



Now (considering the "John" notion), how could "the disciple whom Jesus loved" (if John) who "saw [the linen clothes], and believed" (early in the day) be the same person (later in the day) sitting at meat as one of "the eleven" [Judas no longer in the picture, of course] whom He "upbraided... with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen Him after He was risen"?


Again, there are a number of other biblical incidents (not sure I could remember or present them all meticulously) which seem to give evidence that John could not have been "the disciple whom Jesus loved." :hmm:

Love Fountain
Dec 18th 2013, 04:03 AM
I've heard some say that the following say that this means Jesus loved/s the apostle John more than the other apostles.

John 13:23 There was reclining on Jesus’ bosom one of His disciples, whom Jesus loved.

John 21:20 Peter, turning around, *saw the disciple whom Jesus loved following them; the one who also had leaned back on His bosom at the supper and said, “Lord, who is the one who betrays You?” (NASB)

I don't see it that way. These were written in the Gospel of John and I think that is just how John referred to himself along with referring to himself as the "Beloved Disciple" in a number of other verses. If anything as far as comparison it would say to me that John was the only one Jesus loved not that Jesus loved him most. But I don't think it was meant as any type of comparison I think that it was only how John referred to himself.


Hello Christinme,

Jesus loves his arms and his legs equally.

He doesn't love his fingers more than His toes either.

He may have to wash His fingers a little more often than His toes, giving the appearance of playing favorites, but He definitely doesn't play favorites or that could lead to envy and jealousy just to name a couple things of consequence.

Fingers just seem to need more attention than toes sometimes and for some reason seem to think they are more loved.

If only the fingers could understand that the feet are the foundation of the body, hence why Christ only needed to wash Peter's feet and he was clean all over.

Hope this helps!

Bless you,
Love Fountain

Love Fountain
Dec 18th 2013, 04:21 AM
God destroys His enemies yet we are to love them.





Hello Nick,

God doesn't destroy His enemies, His enemies destroy themselves. God is standing with arms open wide calling for them to return to Him and His love throughout the whole Bible.

God practices what He preaches!

If you are not able to see God's love upon His enemies then please tell me who put's the souls in their children and who feeds them and clothes them? Who gives them houses to live in? It goes on and on what God does for His enemies.

If a person plays favorites with their children and thinks it ok, please consider going back to Jacob and seeing what playing favorites to Joseph did amongst Joseph's brothers.

God doesn't play favorites and create envy or jealousy amongst the children and neither should we!

He loves all His children equally and treats them equally as they have need!

Bless you,
Love Fountain

Love Fountain
Dec 18th 2013, 04:25 AM
Does He command Himself to love Himself with all His heart and with all His soul and with all His mind?? Think about how silly that sounds.


Dear Nick,

Can you command someone to love you and have true love?

He is love, He knows who He is and isn't absent minded.

Bless you,
Love Fountain

Curtis
Dec 18th 2013, 04:38 AM
We should ask our self's how does Jesus love someone? If we knew the answer to this question than maybe we can find out who it is that Jesus loves.

Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Jesus manifests ( manifest, known. To make apparent, cause to be seen, to show; in the pass., to appear, be seen openly) himself to those whom he loves.
Surly Jesus manifested him self unto John even after his resurrection. The Book of Revelations is proof to that. That should cause us ask our self, have we seen Jesus, If not are we really loving him?

TheDivineWatermark
Dec 18th 2013, 05:16 AM
sorry, double post

TheDivineWatermark
Dec 18th 2013, 05:16 AM
We should ask our self's how does Jesus love someone? If we knew the answer to this question than maybe we can find out who it is the Jesus loves.

Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Jesus manifests ( manifest, known. To make apparent, cause to be seen, to show; in the pass., to appear, be seen openly) himself to those whom he loves.
Surly Jesus manifested him self unto John even after his resurrection. The Book of Revelations is proof to that. That should cause us ask our self, have we seen Jesus, If not are we really loving him?

After His resurrection, He manifested Himself to all of His disciples... this, however, gives us no indication that "John" was the one identified (in scripture) as "the disciple whom Jesus loved" (because He appeared unto all of them alike... and even "upbraided [the eleven, including John, together] for their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen Him after He was risen." Scripture only indicates that "the other disciple, whom Jesus loved" ... "saw [the linen clothes], and believed"... well before He even manifested Himself to all "the 11" of the disciples whom He "upbraided" for not believing them which had seen Him after His resurrection.)

The fact that John names himself 5 times in the Book of Revelation also factors against the popular notion that John was being "humble" or "modest" in not naming himself in the Book we know as John... and wouldn't at all explain why Luke, in his account of the scene at the sepulchre, only names Peter (alone) and not "John" at all (why not?) nor "the disciple whom Jesus loved" even though we know he was also present. Surely Luke wasn't being "uber-humble" on behalf of John, by not mentioning his presence/name :D for he has no trouble naming him in other scenes--Luke 5:10, 6:14, 8:51, 9:28, 49, 54, 22:8--(or the fact that he was "the disciple whom Jesus loved" :) ... in fact it's mentioned nowhere outside of the Book we know as John, and there, it only first shows up in chapter 13 [at the Last Supper--why does this label only show up that late in the life of Christ? :hmm: ]).

Nick
Dec 18th 2013, 06:53 AM
Just thought I would bring one (of a number) of scriptural witnesses which seem to speak fairly clearly AGAINST the idea that "John" was "the disciple whom Jesus loved" (keeping in mind that Scripture never says that it was John... and never calls "the disciple whom Jesus loved" an apostle, for that matter)... again, not wanting to get into a debate over it, simply wanting to point out one (of a number) of incidents that seem to rule out the "John" idea, for anyone who might be interested.


Just as food for thought, consider the following two passages:


John 20:1-9 (early in the day of His resurrection)

1 The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.
2 Then she runneth, and cometh to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple, whom Jesus loved, and saith unto them, They have taken away the Lord out of the sepulchre, and we know not where they have laid him.
3 Peter therefore went forth, and that other disciple, and came to the sepulchre.
4 So they ran both together: and the other disciple did outrun Peter, and came first to the sepulchre.
5 And he stooping down, and looking in, saw the linen clothes lying; yet went he not in.
6 Then cometh Simon Peter following him, and went into the sepulchre, and seeth the linen clothes lie,
7 And the napkin, that was about his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together in a place by itself.
8 Then went in also that other disciple, which came first to the sepulchre, and he saw, and believed.
9 For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead



--the passage makes specific note of the fact that "the other disciple, whom Jesus loved" "saw [the linen clothes], and believed"
Why?




Mark 16:9-14 (later in the day, verse 14 after the events of verse 13)

9 Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.
10 And she went and told them that had been with him, as they mourned and wept.
11 And they, when they had heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, believed not.
12 After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.
13 And they went and told it unto the residue: neither believed they them.
14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.



Now (considering the "John" notion), how could "the disciple whom Jesus loved" (if John) who "saw [the linen clothes], and believed" (early in the day) be the same person (later in the day) sitting at meat as one of "the eleven" [Judas no longer in the picture, of course] whom He "upbraided... with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen Him after He was risen"?


Again, there are a number of other biblical incidents (not sure I could remember or present them all meticulously) which seem to give evidence that John could not have been "the disciple whom Jesus loved." :hmm:

Who then do you propose was the other disciple that Jesus loved, if not John? They all were in a state of disbelief of the resurrection until they physically saw him. Peter went back to fishing. He thought Jesus was a done deal until he saw him on the shore. I read your post above and wasn't able to put together how you concluded it wasn't John.

Nick
Dec 18th 2013, 06:55 AM
Hello Nick,

God doesn't destroy His enemies, His enemies destroy themselves. God is standing with arms open wide calling for them to return to Him and His love throughout the whole Bible.

God practices what He preaches!

If you are not able to see God's love upon His enemies then please tell me who put's the souls in their children and who feeds them and clothes them? Who gives them houses to live in? It goes on and on what God does for His enemies.

If a person plays favorites with their children and thinks it ok, please consider going back to Jacob and seeing what playing favorites to Joseph did amongst Joseph's brothers.

God doesn't play favorites and create envy or jealousy amongst the children and neither should we!

He loves all His children equally and treats them equally as they have need!

Bless you,
Love Fountain

No, God destroys them and it's very clear how He goes about doing it. I'm reading Obadiah now. Check out the first chapter. After that read through Amos. After that, I don't know, you can start with Isaiah and move through Lamentations. Hosea is another good book of action packed God delivered wrath and it's a quick read. Lamentations would be my suggestion if you really think God doesn't destroy evildoers in a very graphic and detailed manner. He doesn't stop there; He destroys entire blood lines including pregnant women where He rips their bellies open and kills infants. The rosy colored picture of God being love and love only is FALSE. God is just, but wrath is very much part of the consequences people faced for being disobedient. How many times did God hand over the Isrealities to their enemies? He (God) hand delivered them on a silver platter to the Babylonians.

Christinme
Dec 18th 2013, 08:17 AM
I agree that there is not agreement on who actually wrote the Gospel of John. That being said my point in the OP is that God does not play favorites and loves all.

Curtis
Dec 18th 2013, 01:54 PM
After His resurrection, He manifested Himself to all of His disciples... this, however, gives us no indication that "John" was the one identified (in scripture) as "the disciple whom Jesus loved" (because He appeared unto all of them alike... and even "upbraided [the eleven, including John, together] for their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen Him after He was risen." Scripture only indicates that "the other disciple, whom Jesus loved" ... "saw [the linen clothes], and believed"... well before He even manifested Himself to all "the 11" of the disciples whom He "upbraided" for not believing them which had seen Him after His resurrection.)

The fact that John names himself 5 times in the Book of Revelation also factors against the popular notion that John was being "humble" or "modest" in not naming himself in the Book we know as John... and wouldn't at all explain why Luke, in his account of the scene at the sepulchre, only names Peter (alone) and not "John" at all (why not?) nor "the disciple whom Jesus loved" even though we know he was also present. Surely Luke wasn't being "uber-humble" on behalf of John, by not mentioning his presence/name :D for he has no trouble naming him in other scenes--Luke 5:10, 6:14, 8:51, 9:28, 49, 54, 22:8--(or the fact that he was "the disciple whom Jesus loved" :) ... in fact it's mentioned nowhere outside of the Book we know as John, and there, it only first shows up in chapter 13 [at the Last Supper--why does this label only show up that late in the life of Christ? :hmm: ]).

All you said is true, Seeing someone does not guarantee that you know that person well. Only after that person has revealed their heart to another dose true knowing come into play. No one knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of man that is in him, even so no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. When we are filled with the Spirit of God we are actually filled with the thoughts of God. Find a man who loves God, and God loves him you will find a man with much Wisdom and understanding concerning the Lord's ways. John just happens to fit that description.

Nick
Dec 19th 2013, 02:28 AM
I agree that there is not agreement on who actually wrote the Gospel of John. That being said my point in the OP is that God does not play favorites and loves all.

There is not 100% agreement on who wrote any of the Gospels or which one came first; some believe Mark while others believe Matthew. It would be extremely difficult for one to argue that John came first though .