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Aviyah
Dec 9th 2013, 02:19 AM
Matthew 10:28

And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul.
Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell. (ESV)

Option 1:
The word "destroy" more closely resembles the word "kill".

Option 2:
The word "destroy" more closely resembles the word "torment".

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exitludos
Dec 9th 2013, 06:28 AM
The nearest synonym is 'kill'.

Because that is the word Luke 12.4-5 uses in his parallel to Matthew 10.28:

Matthew 10.28:
A. And do not fear those who kill the body
B. but cannot kill the soul.
C. Rather fear him who
D. can destroy both soul and body
E. in the valley of Hinnom.

Luke 12.4-5:
A. But I tell you, my friends, do not fear those who kill the body,
B. and after that have nothing more that they can do.
C. But I will warn you whom to fear. Fear him who,
D. after he has killed,
E. has authority to cast into the valley of Hinnom.

Walls
Dec 9th 2013, 07:13 AM
I voted "Torment"

The word "destroy" in the bible does not mean to annihilate, or to cause to cease. It means "lack of well-being". The sense of the Greek word is that of a ship which has sunk. It is still a ship, but it has become useless for the intended task. Instead of sailing above the water, it is imprisoned beneath it. God constructed man with a top priority of experiencing "well-being". God puts man in a Garden of Pleasure (the meaning of Eden) and when the Lord sets up His Millennial Kingdom it is;

"for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit" (Romans 14:17).

The verses used to indicate "kill" in Matthew 10 and Luke 12 above, mean "to take away the 'life' of soul. We can see this terrible situation in Gethsemane when our Lord, though very much alive, says in Matthew 26:38;

"Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me."

See also Mark 14:34.

ewq1938
Dec 9th 2013, 08:06 AM
I voted "Torment"

The word "destroy" in the bible does not mean to annihilate, or to cause to cease. It means "lack of well-being".

Any reason why you did not include evidence of this statement? Perhaps you are making that up?


Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

destroy

apollumi
ap-ol'-loo-mee
From G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

Where do you see "lack of well-being" in this definition?

Walls
Dec 9th 2013, 08:12 AM
Any reason why you did not include evidence of this statement? Perhaps you are making that up?


Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

destroy

apollumi
ap-ol'-loo-mee
From G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

Where do you see "lack of well-being" in this definition?

Absolutely... You have a right to the documentation. Here is a verbatim copy and paste from Vine.

Destroy
Part Of Speech: Verb
Strong's Number: <G622>
Original Word: ἀπόλλυμι, apollymi
Usage Notes: a strengthened form of ollumi, signifies "to destroy utterly;" in Middle Voice, "to perish." The idea is not extinction but ruin, loss, not of being, but of well-being. This is clear from its use, as, e.g., of the marring of wine skins, Luke 5:37;
(Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old Testament and New Testament Words)

ewq1938
Dec 9th 2013, 08:17 AM
Absolutely... You have a right to the documentation. Here is a verbatim copy and paste from Vine.

Destroy
Part Of Speech: Verb
Strong's Number: <G622>
Original Word: ἀπόλλυμι, apollymi
Usage Notes: a strengthened form of ollumi, signifies "to destroy utterly;" in Middle Voice, "to perish." The idea is not extinction but ruin, loss, not of being, but of well-being. This is clear from its use, as, e.g., of the marring of wine skins, Luke 5:37;
(Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old Testament and New Testament Words)

That is commentary, not part of the actual definition. And it's clear to see whoever wrote that commentary is contradicting the words meaning, "to destroy utterly".

The definition: "to destroy utterly"
You: "in the bible does not mean to annihilate"

Walls
Dec 9th 2013, 09:06 AM
That is commentary, not part of the actual definition. And it's clear to see whoever wrote that commentary is contradicting the words meaning, "to destroy utterly".

The definition: "to destroy utterly"
You: "in the bible does not mean to annihilate"

You can't use "destroy" in your argument because that is what we are defining, or arguing about. Its meaning is the subject of discussion.

I think Vine is an accepted authority. But even so,

if "apollymi" means "annihilate" then you will have to come to terms with the fact that the "perdition" (same word in the Greek) is eternal - a contradiction. How can annihilation continue for eternity? If however, "apollymi" means "lack of well-being", then there is no contradiction.
you will have to explain why the wine skins of Luke 5:37 are "annihilated" by new wine but still remain as wine skins, only that they are "burst". Ever popped a balloon? What is it after you popped it? A popped balloon or annihilated?


I think Vine is correct.

Boo
Dec 9th 2013, 09:09 AM
Actually, in the Matthew reference, it uses the word kill and destroy separately. However, referring back to Strongs, it appears that destroy is even more aggressive than kill.

Some reference books do reflect a person's personal theology; hence the commentary tacked onto the end of definitions in reference books.

ewq1938
Dec 9th 2013, 09:25 AM
You can't use "destroy" in your argument because that is what we are defining, or arguing about. Its meaning is the subject of discussion.

I can because it is the official definition of the word, a word of a fixed language.



I think Vine is an accepted authority. But even so,
[LIST=1]
if "apollymi" means "annihilate" then you will have to come to terms with the fact that the "perdition" (same word in the Greek) is eternal - a contradiction. How can annihilation continue for eternity?

There is no contradiction. When something is destroyed, it is destroyed forever. When annihilated, its annihilated forever.





you will have to explain why the wine skins of Luke 5:37 are "annihilated" by new wine but still remain as wine skins, only that they are "burst".

In this context, when a bottle is broken to the extent that it cannot be used for that same purpose ever again, it is destroyed. Like dropping a glass wine bottle, it shatters and is destroyed. When we are talking about things burned away in a consuming fire, it is gone with no trace left.



I think Vine is correct.

Would you bet your soul on it?

Curtis
Dec 9th 2013, 11:59 AM
G622 "Destroy" From the "Complete Word Study"

ἀπόλλυμι
apóllumi or apolúō; fut. apolésō, 2d aor. apōlómēn, perf. apolṓleka, 2d perf. apólōla, mid. fut. apoloúmai, from apó (G575) an intens., the mid. óllumi (n.f.), to destroy. The force of apó here is away or wholly; therefore, the verb is stronger than the simple óllumi. To destroy, mid. be destroyed, perish. Also from óllumi (n.f.): ólethros (G3639), rain, destruction.
(I) Act. form:
(A) To destroy, cause to perish, trans.: (1) Spoken of things figuratively (1Co_1:19, meaning to bring to naught, render void the wisdom of the wise, quoted from Isa_29:14). (2) Of persons, to destroy, put to death, cause to perish. (a) Spoken of physical death (Mat_2:13; Mat_12:14; Mat_21:41; Mat_22:7; Mar_3:6; Mar_9:22; Mar_11:18; Mar_12:9; Luk_6:9 [TR]; Luk_17:27, Luk_17:29; Luk_19:47; Luk_20:16; Joh_10:10; Jud_1:5; Sept.: Gen_20:4; Deu_11:4; Est_4:9; Est_9:16); in a judicial sense to sentence to death (Mat_27:20; Jas_4:12). (b) Spoken of eternal death, i.e., future punishment, exclusion from the Messiah's kingdom. In this sense it has the same meaning as apothnḗskō (G599), to die (Mat_10:28; Mar_1:24; Luk_4:34; Luk_9:56). This eternal death is called the second death (Rev_20:14). In Luk_9:25, to "destroy himself" (a.t.) means to subject himself to eternal death, which is the opposite of eternal life (Joh_6:50-51, Joh_6:58). Physical and eternal death are to be distinguished (Joh_8:21, Joh_8:24; Joh_11:25-26; Rom_7:10; Rom_8:13).
(B) To lose, be deprived of, trans. of such things as reward (Mar_9:41); a sheep (Luk_15:4); a drachma or coin (Luk_15:8-9). See Joh_6:39; 2Jn_1:8; Sept.: Pro_29:3. To lose one's life or soul (Mat_10:39; Mat_16:25; Mar_8:35; Luk_9:24; Luk_17:33; Joh_12:25).
(II) Mid. and pass. forms as also 2d perf. apólōla.
(A) To be destroyed, perish, intrans. Spoken of: (1) Things (Mat_5:29-30; Mat_9:17; Mar_2:22; Luk_5:37; Joh_6:27; Jas_1:11; 1Pe_1:7). In all these instances the verb must not be thought of as indicating extinction, but only change from one state of being to another. Nothing actually becomes extinct, but everything changes. In Heb_1:11, "even these heavens will perish" (a.t.) quoted from Psa_102:27; Jer_9:11; Jer_48:8; Eze_29:8; Eze_35:7, means that these present heavens will be qualitatively changed as well as the earth (Rev_21:1). The new, redeemed creation and physically redeemed creatures, especially the presently redeemed men with their redeemed bodies, will have a congruous environment in which to live (Rom_8:19-23). (2) Persons, to be put to death, to die, perish, relating to physical death (Mat_8:25; Mat_26:52; Mar_4:38; Luk_8:24; Luk_11:51; Luk_13:33; Luk_15:17; Joh_18:14; Act_5:37; 1Co_10:9-10; 2Co_4:9; 2Pe_3:6; Jud_1:11; Sept.: Lev_23:30; Est_9:12). Relating to eternal death (see I, A, 2, b), to perish eternally, i.e., to be deprived of eternal life (Luk_13:3, Luk_13:5; Joh_3:15-16; Joh_10:28; Joh_17:12; Rom_2:12; 1Co_15:18; 2Pe_3:9). Those who perish (hoi apolluménoi, who are perishing) means those who are exposed to eternal death (1Co_1:18; 2Co_2:15; 2Co_4:3; 2Th_2:10).
(B) To be lost to the owner, such as hair (Luk_21:18), anything (Joh_6:12). Spoken of those who wander away and are lost, e.g., the prodigal son (Luk_15:24); sheep straying in the desert (Luk_15:4, Luk_15:6). Metaphorically (Mat_10:6; Mat_15:24; Sept.: Psa_119:176; Jer_50:6; Eze_34:4).
Deriv.: Apollúōn (G623), destroyer; apṓleia (G684), destruction; sunapóllumi (G4881), to destroy with.
Syn.: katargéō (G2673), abolish; kathairéō (G2507), to cast down; lúō (G3089), to loose; katalúō (G2647), to destroy utterly; olothreúō (G2645), to destroy; exolothreúō (G1842), to destroy utterly; phtheírō (G5351), to corrupt; porthéō (G4199), to ruin by laying waste, to make havoc; thnḗskō (G2348), to die; apothnḗskō (G599), to die off or out; teleutáō (G5053), to end, to die; apogínomai (G581), to die, to become something else.
Ant.: auxánō (G837), to increase; záō (G2198), to live; zōogonéō (G2225), to become alive, quicken; kerdaínō (G2770), to gain; ōpheléō (G5623), to profit; prokóptō (G4298), to advance.

Curtis
Dec 9th 2013, 12:10 PM
I can because it is the official definition of the word, a word of a fixed language.

There is no contradiction. When something is destroyed, it is destroyed forever. When annihilated, its annihilated forever.






In this context, when a bottle is broken to the extent that it cannot be used for that same purpose ever again, it is destroyed. Like dropping a glass wine bottle, it shatters and is destroyed. When we are talking about things burned away in a consuming fire, it is gone with no trace left.

Would you bet your soul on it?

Nothing that exits can be completely destroyed it only changes from one state into another. That is a scientific fact.

ewq1938
Dec 9th 2013, 12:20 PM
That is a scientific fact.

Human science right? There isn't one that is higher right?

Curtis
Dec 9th 2013, 12:24 PM
Human science right? There isn't one that is higher right?

The science we have today was created by God. It is because of him our science works.
Without him nothing was made that was made.

Walls
Dec 9th 2013, 03:09 PM
......

In this context, when a bottle is broken to the extent that it cannot be used for that same purpose ever again, it is destroyed. Like dropping a glass wine bottle, it shatters and is destroyed.




Is this not what I said in my first posting? Quote;


Walls, Quote
..... The sense of the Greek word is that of a ship which has sunk. It is still a ship, but it has become useless for the intended task. Instead of sailing above the water, it is imprisoned beneath it. God constructed man with a top priority of experiencing "well-being". God puts man in a Garden of Pleasure (the meaning of Eden) and when the Lord sets up His Millennial Kingdom it is;


When we are talking about things burned away in a consuming fire, it is gone with no trace left.

But "burned away" never came into the discussion, and never appears in scripture in connection with "apollymi". But if you want to bring in the fire part of perdition, Isaiah 66:24 says;

"And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh."

In Revelation 14:10-11 it is;
"10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."

It is not the "smoke of their burned souls, or bodies", BUT "the smoke of their TORMENT... for ever and ever." So too in Revelation 20:10;

"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

Again it is "they shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever". Torment is extreme "lack of well being". I think "burned away" is your invention. I'll stick with Vine.

Curtis
Dec 9th 2013, 03:39 PM
If it was just in a flash that these people were gone, then there would be no need for the lake of fire to burn forever. Seems like a pretty big waste of energy to me, unless there was going to be some late comers. :)

BrianW
Dec 9th 2013, 03:40 PM
Mod Note: This isn't happening here because obviously people can't just give a definition without elaborating or clarifying. Thread closed..