PDA

View Full Version : 1 John 5:16-17



ob_one
Dec 11th 2013, 04:42 PM
Very puzzled?? Which is the sin leading to death and which is the sin not leading to death? I thought the wages of all sin is death? I know Christ spoke of the only unforgivable sin being that against the Holy Spirit but why does John say not to make request for this? Thank you to anyone for their insight.

David Taylor
Dec 11th 2013, 05:16 PM
Very puzzled?? Which is the sin leading to death and which is the sin not leading to death? I thought the wages of all sin is death? I know Christ spoke of the only unforgivable sin being that against the Holy Spirit but why does John say not to make request for this? Thank you to anyone for their insight.

Let's look at a broader excerpt of those verses, to set a better context.

I John 5:12-19
"5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
5:14 And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:
5:15 And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.
5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
5:17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.
5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
5:19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness. "

So John had just taught us in verses 5:12; that 'those who have the Son have life, and those who do not have the Son have not life.'
Then John re-confirms in 5:13 that those who believe in the Son, have eternal life.
Then John re-confirms in 5:14 that we who believe in the Son, have confidence in Him.

Then skipping 16-17, we see from 5:17 that all unrighteousness is sin.
5:18 tells us that whoever is born of God sinneth not; because we are kept by Christ, begotten of God. Satan (the wicked one) cannot touch Him.
5:19 reaffirms that those who are Christs are of God; everyone else is wicked.

So what these tell me, in understanding 16-17, is that if we belong to Christ, any sin can be forgiven if we ask for forgiveness. Only the sin of not asking for forgiveness and not being repentative, (I believe is the unpardonable sin Mark refers to in Mark 3:29, blaspheming the Holy Spirit aka choosing to stay in a state of rejection of the drawing of the Holy Spirit to believe and follow Christ.)

The passage is a bit convoluted, because 5:16 specifies 'his brother' asking for the forgiveness; but ultimately we know that the act of forgiveness doesn't belong to anyone other than the individual, and their positive interaction with the movement of the Holy Spirit in believing and following Christ.

Walls
Dec 11th 2013, 08:00 PM
Very puzzled?? Which is the sin leading to death and which is the sin not leading to death? I thought the wages of all sin is death? I know Christ spoke of the only unforgivable sin being that against the Holy Spirit but why does John say not to make request for this? Thank you to anyone for their insight.

According to Matthew 10:28 there are two deaths known to man. The death of the body, which we are all well acquainted with, and the death of the soul. The death of the body comes by many ways, but the death of the soul only comes in two ways.

The owner of the soul puts his soul to death by denying it. In Matthew 10:39; "He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it" and Matthew 16:25; "For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it", the word "life" is used interchangeably for "soul", and could be correctly rendered "soul-life". This voluntary losing of the "soul" is required of every Christian in order to be a disciple of Jesus. To be a disciple means to enter into the discipline of something. Our Lord lost His soul-life all through His ministry. Isaiah 53:3 say that He was, "a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief". Our Lord lost His soul life completely in Gethsemane (Matt.26:38 etc.).
The owner of the soul preserves it in this life but loses it in the next, which is what Matthew 10:28 threatens. John 12:25; "He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal."

Now, it is clear from both the voluntary act, its timing, and its consequences, that the loss of the "soul-life" now in this age leads to "life" later. And the losing of the "soul-life" is desired by the Lord so it cannot be sin. So this death of the soul is not meant in 1st John 5:16-17.

That leaves only bodily, or physical death. And this death is a result of sin. These two verses say that there are degrees of sin. One is a sin unto death and one is not. So we have to find out if there is a record of Christians who sinned and lived, and if there is a record of Christians who sinned and died physically. And sure enough we have a threefold record of Christians who sinned unto death. They are;

Ananias and Sapphira in Acts Chapter 5
Christians who were taking the Lord's Table unworthily in 1st Corinthians 11:30
Alexander and Hymenaeus in 1st Timothy 1:20

The fourth, the incestuous brother of 1st Corinthians Chapter 5:5, seems to have repented and had a reprieve in 2nd Corinthians, but it was close.

The Law of Moses always commanded that the righteous were to separate themselves from sinners lest they partake of their judgement like Korah and company (Nu.16:21). But the New Testament seeks restoration, for grace and time to reconsider are given. Thus Galatians 6:1;

"Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted."

But there comes a point when all has failed and the next line of action is the stopping of the spread of leaven in the Church. That is, to separate from the sinful brother. Thus 2 Thessalonians 3:6-15;
"6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.
7 For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you;
8 Neither did we eat any man's bread for nought; but wrought with labour and travail night and day, that we might not be chargeable to any of you:
9 Not because we have not power, but to make ourselves an ensample unto you to follow us.
10 For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.
11 For we hear that there are some which walk among you disorderly, working not at all, but are busybodies.
12 Now them that are such we command and exhort by our Lord Jesus Christ, that with quietness they work, and eat their own bread.
13 But ye, brethren, be not weary in well doing.
14 And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.
15 Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother."

And even stronger is 1st Corinthians 5:11-13;
"11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person."

So 1st John 5:16-17 is saying that there are certain sins that could end up in the physical death of a brother. These sins must be dealt with by the sinning brother because the prayers of the other saints will not help. There are sins that can be helped by prayer and there are sins that cannot be helped by prayer. Incest is obviously one of them. According to 1st Corinthians 5:11 above, idolatry must be another. So John ends his discourse in 1st John 5:21;

"Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen." - a sin unto death!

ewq1938
Dec 12th 2013, 04:58 AM
I thought the wages of all sin is death? I know Christ spoke of the only unforgivable sin being that against the Holy Spirit

Jesus never says it's the "only" sin that is unforgivable. He merely only speaks of one that is unforgivable. Big difference.





.

Dani
Dec 12th 2013, 05:11 AM
Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is the only unforgivable sin according to the Bible -
The context shows us that some were thinking and attributing Jesus' great work of casting out demons to the prince of demons, when Jesus was actually casting them out by the power of the Holy Spirit. It is the power of the Spirit that awakes us to faith in Christ, that may be why this sin is so terrible.


Matthew 12:31-32 1 " Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. 32 "Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

dani

ewq1938
Dec 12th 2013, 05:19 AM
Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is the only unforgivable sin according to the Bible -

No it is not. Ever read the end of Revelation?

Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Walls
Dec 12th 2013, 05:41 AM
I think we must make a difference where the bible makes a difference.

The blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is "unforgivable" in this age and the next (the Millennium)
The sin of 1st John 5 leads to death


The "unforgivable sin" of attributing a work of the Holy Spirit to Satan might not lead to death, but the blasphemer cannot be forgiven in this age, nor in the Millennium. As all Christians are resurrected by the beginning of the Millennium, and those of the nations that survive the Great Tribulation are also alive, there will be people ALIVE who are not forgiven.
The "sin that is unto death" is addressed only to the Church. It is a local phenomena like Ananias and Sapphira, and the "sleeping" saints of Corinth. The nations sin these sins all the time and are not killed. Their day comes at either the return of the Lord, or 1'000 years later before the White Throne when the "rest of the dead" rise.

Maybe this will save the thread being derailed by disputing two different things.

ChangedByHim
Dec 12th 2013, 03:39 PM
Jesus never says it's the "only" sin that is unforgivable. He merely only speaks of one that is unforgivable. Big difference.



Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. Matt 12:31

ewq1938
Dec 13th 2013, 02:01 AM
Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. Matt 12:31

Mat 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

In more modern language this would be like saying, "All kinds of sins shall be forgiven but blasphemy of the HS won't be." Which isn't saying there aren't some other unforgivable sins.

Another unforgivable sin is here:

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Hebrews 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Hebrews 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.


He repeats this here:

Heb 10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Heb 10:32 But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions;
Heb 10:33 Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used.
Heb 10:34 For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.
Heb 10:35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.
Heb 10:36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
Heb 10:37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
Heb 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
Heb 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

LookingUp
Dec 13th 2013, 09:01 PM
Very puzzled?? Which is the sin leading to death and which is the sin not leading to death? I thought the wages of all sin is death? I know Christ spoke of the only unforgivable sin being that against the Holy Spirit but why does John say not to make request for this? Thank you to anyone for their insight.
It seems 1 John 5 is speaking of physical death rather than spiritual death (spiritual death is a result of sin and culminates in eternal death). Once man sins, he immediately dies, spiritually speaking (cf. Rom. 7). It's not like man gets to practice sin for a while that "leads" to death. He sins, he dies (spiritually). So, for the Christian, there is a sin "leading" to physical death.

The wages of sin is (spiritual) death (culminating in eternal death). Jesus came to save us from having to experience the results of spiritual death: eternal death. Clearly, Jesus did not save us from having to experience physical death; we all will experience physical death. The sting of (spiritual) death is sin and the power of sin is in the law. Sin loses its power to (spiritually) kill apart from the law. Under the law one (spiritually) dies because of the flesh. Under Christ one is made (spiritually) alive because of the Spirit.

There is no longer condemnation (culminating in eternal death) for those in Christ--we can't spiritually die (again) once we are made spiritually alive (we are apart from the law in Christ). But those in Christ can shorten their physical lives when they sin as we see with Ananias and Sapphira in Acts 5 and with Christians taking the Lord’s Supper in an unworthy manner in 1 Corinthians 11:30.

clarkthompson
Dec 14th 2013, 12:30 AM
John was referring to the sins the dead or lost people live by, living by the flesh in other words.

ob_one
Dec 14th 2013, 02:46 AM
It seems 1 John 5 is speaking of physical death rather than spiritual death (spiritual death is a result of sin and culminates in eternal death). Once man sins, he immediately dies, spiritually speaking (cf. Rom. 7). It's not like man gets to practice sin for a while that "leads" to death. He sins, he dies (spiritually). So, for the Christian, there is a sin "leading" to physical death.

The wages of sin is (spiritual) death (culminating in eternal death). Jesus came to save us from having to experience the results of spiritual death: eternal death. Clearly, Jesus did not save us from having to experience physical death; we all will experience physical death. The sting of (spiritual) death is sin and the power of sin is in the law. Sin loses its power to (spiritually) kill apart from the law. Under the law one (spiritually) dies because of the flesh. Under Christ one is made (spiritually) alive because of the Spirit.

There is no longer condemnation (culminating in eternal death) for those in Christ--we can't spiritually die (again) once we are made spiritually alive (we are apart from the law in Christ). But those in Christ can shorten their physical lives when they sin as we see with Ananias and Sapphira in Acts 5 and with Christians taking the Lord’s Supper in an unworthy manner in 1 Corinthians 11:30.

When I read Acts 5 it comes across to me as a punishment. You say that those in Christ can shorten their lives but here I read that Peter asks Ananias why he lied to the Holy Spirit. Would that not be an unpardonable sin? I guess some are saying certain sins are up to the sinner to ask for forgiveness but which sins are those? As far as 1corinthians 11:27-30, it might as well be in the original text cause that just flew right past me.

ob_one
Dec 14th 2013, 03:00 AM
And even stronger is 1st Corinthians 5:11-13;
"11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person."

So 1st John 5:16-17 is saying that there are certain sins that could end up in the physical death of a brother. These sins must be dealt with by the sinning brother because the prayers of the other saints will not help. There are sins that can be helped by prayer and there are sins that cannot be helped by prayer. Incest is obviously one of them. According to 1st Corinthians 5:11 above, idolatry must be another. So John ends his discourse in 1st John 5:21;

"Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen." - a sin unto death!

I have a close friend who most would call a drunkard and a cousin who is fighting addiction amongst other issues. We aren't supposed to pray for these. Are my prayers for them in vain? :confused

LookingUp
Dec 14th 2013, 03:22 AM
When I read Acts 5 it comes across to me as a punishment.It is a punishment. And a pretty severe one.


You say that those in Christ can shorten their lives but here I read that Peter asks Ananias why he lied to the Holy Spirit. Would that not be an unpardonable sin?Lying is not an unpardonable sin. Denying the works of the Holy Spirit, and, instead, attributing those works to demonic spirits is possibly the unpardonable sin; but certainly, lying is not in view.


I guess some are saying certain sins are up to the sinner to ask for forgiveness but which sins are those? Any sins you are aware you’ve committed qualify for you asking for forgiveness for it.


As far as 1corinthians 11:27-30, it might as well be in the original text cause that just flew right past me.
1 Corinthians 11:27-32:
Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner, shall be guilty of the body and the blood of the Lord. 28 But a man must examine himself, and in so doing he is to eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself if he does not judge the body rightly. 30 For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number sleep. 31 But if we judged ourselves rightly, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are disciplined by the Lord so that we will not be condemned along with the world.

Paul writes that the reason many were weak and sick, and a number sleep (i.e. have died) is because they have not judged themselves rightly (vv. 28-29), and thus they take the Lord’s Supper in an unworthy manner (v. 27). Paul calls these phenomena of Christians being weak, sick and dying, “judgment” (vv. 31-32); and that this judgment comes about, in part, so that the Christian will not be condemned along with the world (v. 32).

ob_one
Dec 14th 2013, 04:17 AM
Any sins you are aware you’ve committed qualify for you asking for forgiveness for it.


(v. 32).

Yes I understand on my behalf but what is John speaking of in verse 16 of not praying for?

LookingUp
Dec 14th 2013, 05:05 AM
Yes I understand on my behalf but what is John speaking of in verse 16 of not praying for?
We're not told. Perhaps those listening to the letter knew, but since it's not specified in the letter, there's no way for us to know. Clearly, taking the Lord's Supper in an unworthy manner led to some dying, and lying to the Holy Spirit led to a couple dying, but other than those, we just don't know for certain. Since we can't be certain, pray for all sins.

Walls
Dec 14th 2013, 06:10 AM
I have a close friend who most would call a drunkard and a cousin who is fighting addiction amongst other issues. We aren't supposed to pray for these. Are my prayers for them in vain? :confused

I do not see bondage as a sin NOT to pray for. When our Lord Jesus came down from the Mount of Transfiguration He found that 9 of His 12 disciples could not release a man in bondage. He said that this type could only be released by PRAYER and fasting (Matt.17:21; Mk.9:29).

Remember too, that we could make an exhaustive study on which are "sins unto death", but only God knows the true inner condition of a man or woman. That is why, I believe, John did not make a list. We must, as individuals, approach God in our spirits for the "go" or "stop" in prayer for anything. This is the flavor of the New Testament. The Law is over for Christians. It is now;

"For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God." (Romans 8:14)

"But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law." (Galatians 5:18)

ob_one
Dec 14th 2013, 05:04 PM
L.U. and Walls,
That makes more sense. Thanks for your time.

LookingUp
Dec 14th 2013, 05:54 PM
L.U. and Walls,
That makes more sense. Thanks for your time.You're welcome. :-)

Walls
Dec 14th 2013, 07:29 PM
L.U. and Walls,
That makes more sense. Thanks for your time.

Glad I could help.