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View Full Version : Hosea 9:16 is a tough verse



Nick
Dec 12th 2013, 07:55 AM
Ephraim is stricken;
their root is dried up;
they shall bear no fruit.
Even though they give birth,
I will put their beloved children to death.

Notes:

Hos. 9:16Ė17 their root is dried up; they shall bear no fruit. Again (see note on v. 14), this punishment is the opposite of what they sought in worshiping the Baals. wanderers among the nations. That is, they will be exiles. they have not listened to him. Godís people put themselves at risk when they abandon dependency on the Lord and obedience to him.

LandShark
Dec 12th 2013, 01:05 PM
Brother... Hosea is not written in chronological order. Earlier in the book it reveals that Ephraim/Israel will be returned, brought back into the fold so to speak.

Hosea 1:10 Yet the number of the sons of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which is not measured nor numbered. And it shall be, in the place where it is said to them, You are not My people, it shall be said to them, Sons of the Living God.

Even the names of his family (which must be defined in Hebrew) tell the story from start to finish. Hosea then goes into detail, that's all. "Ephraim" is the somewhat poetic term for Israel in the nations, as all of the Northern Kingdom's kings came from Ephraim. Even Wiki states:

"Ephraim is often seen as the tribe that embodies the entire Northern Kingdom and the royal house resided in the tribe's territory (just as Judah is the tribe that embodies the Kingdom of Judah and provided its royal family)."

So when it speaks of Ephraim in Hosea, it is a reference to all of the Northern Kingdom, Israel, who whored around on God and ultimately was sent into the nations and scattered as punishment for their sins. They were however, promised to also be called back to the fold.

episkopos
Dec 12th 2013, 02:00 PM
Ephraim is stricken;
their root is dried up;
they shall bear no fruit.
Even though they give birth,
I will put their beloved children to death.

Notes:

Hos. 9:16–17 their root is dried up; they shall bear no fruit. Again (see note on v. 14), this punishment is the opposite of what they sought in worshiping the Baals. wanderers among the nations. That is, they will be exiles. they have not listened to him. God’s people put themselves at risk when they abandon dependency on the Lord and obedience to him.


Prophetically Ephraim (double fruit) is the church. Those that are in Christ are meant to bring forth double fruit...in both righteousness and holiness. Of course to whom much has been given (grace) more is required. God has upped the ante, so to speak, to get the attention of the nations. Of course many of the nations will take notice and many will begin well owing to this outpouring of grace. Ephraim will bring forth many sons....but just as Israel according to the flesh...many will come up short of the expectations of God. Many are called but few are chosen. This is a sobering word for today.

LandShark
Dec 12th 2013, 02:36 PM
I agree with Epi, I too believe Ephraim is found in the church or at least within Christianity. I don't want to come off sounding as if supporting an institution or suggesting that the institution is Ephraim, the PEOPLE are. Anyway, I do not agree completely in one sense Epi. While I am not suggesting that "everyone makes it," I don't think "many are called and few are chosen" means what we teach it as. The word remnant does NOT mean small, it means, "Whatever is left." If you open a 100 yard roll of fabric, take off 1 yard, the remainder is the remnant. That is how the word (in Greek) was understand in those days of old. Anyway.... the number of the seed can't be counted, the land it says, won't even be able to hold all that are coming. It may ultimately only be the amount of a tithe (10% and their is scripture that suggests this) but that would mean 700,000,000 make it of those alive today, plus the resurrection. So the numbers are actually staggering and truly, no man can count them. I submit then that the "many are called" is to do a WORK, but since so few will hear the voice of the Shepherd and answer, "few are chosen." And this is why we have FAR more laymen than we do teachers and preachers. Just a thought, don't crucify me over it!

episkopos
Dec 12th 2013, 02:51 PM
I agree with Epi, I too believe Ephraim is found in the church or at least within Christianity. I don't want to come off sounding as if supporting an institution or suggesting that the institution is Ephraim, the PEOPLE are. Anyway, I do not agree completely in one sense Epi. While I am not suggesting that "everyone makes it," I don't think "many are called and few are chosen" means what we teach it as. The word remnant does NOT mean small, it means, "Whatever is left." If you open a 100 yard roll of fabric, take off 1 yard, the remainder is the remnant. That is how the word (in Greek) was understand in those days of old. Anyway.... the number of the seed can't be counted, the land it says, won't even be able to hold all that are coming. It may ultimately only be the amount of a tithe (10% and their is scripture that suggests this) but that would mean 700,000,000 make it of those alive today, plus the resurrection. So the numbers are actually staggering and truly, no man can count them. I submit then that the "many are called" is to do a WORK, but since so few will hear the voice of the Shepherd and answer, "few are chosen." And this is why we have FAR more laymen than we do teachers and preachers. Just a thought, don't crucify me over it!

Yes, we are dealing with large numbers. But the experience of the few in any one time and place remains the same. There is an image of the remnant in the OT where it says that "a child can count them". Let me look that up..


And the rest of the trees of his forest shall be few, that a child may write them. Is. 10:19

But I don't think the the few or many have to do with salvation/survival. I believe that God is choosing a bride for His Son. That is what overcomers aspire to. So to be chosen is to be placed in the bride. We could say...many are saved but few are the bride.

The whole purpose of God is to bring sons into His kingdom. Those who rule with Christ will rule over the many saved ones. Will all rule with Christ? Few indeed.

Tomb Escapee
Dec 12th 2013, 05:20 PM
We could say...many are saved but few are the bride.

The whole purpose of God is to bring sons into His kingdom. Those who rule with Christ will rule over the many saved ones. Will all rule with Christ? Few indeed.

I tend to agree with these insights. It seems that most in Christianity are so focused on the "either heaven or hell" perspective that not much contemplation goes into the deeper aspects of the Kingdom. Scripture certainly seems to indicate that the Bride will be a special congregation of esteemed souls, and not simply a mass assembly of anyone and everyone who has "accepted Jesus" and become a Christian.

TheDivineWatermark
Dec 12th 2013, 06:22 PM
Just offering my quick two cents on the "many are called, but few are chosen" phrase.

In one passage where this is found (Matthew 22:2-14nasb, v.14), the context refers to those being invited to the wedding feast ("guests [plural]"), but "the bride [singular]" is not being talked about in the passage. So I believe that the "many are called , but few are chosen" refers particularly to "guests [plural]" with regard to "the kingdom of [the] heaven[s]" (verse 2) which is on earth, and will be manifest in the earthly Millennial Kingdom at the time of His Second Coming to the earth. That is, the Millennial Kingdom is equated, I believe, with "the marriage supper/feast" (Revelation 19:9 "BLESSED are they [plural] which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb." The "bride/wife [singular]" IS mentioned, but as "already married" at that point, in that passage [Revelation 19:7]). Those "invited/called guests [plural]" must have on the proper wedding garment (for "the wedding supper/feast"), or else this: "bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth" Matthew 22:13. Again, "the bride [singular]" is not being addressed nor spoken of, in the passage... and a "bride/wife" is not "invited/called" to her own "wedding supper/feast," she's simply present there with her bridegroom ([I]already wed).

(The other passage where the "many be called, but few chosen" is found IN ONLY SOME VERSIONS [Matthew 20:1-16, v.16], is likewise set in the context of "the kingdom of [the] heaven[s]," which is on the earth.)

My view is that the phrase does not apply to "the bride [singular]," but to the "invited guests [plural]" who will be present to enter and be "blessed" in "the kingdom of [the] heaven[s]" (i.e. the earthly Millennial Kingdom; to which "many" will be "called"). "The bride/wife [singular]" (us, as I understand it [2 Corinthians 11:2--"a chaste virgin [singular]"]) will already be married at that (future) point in time (Revelation 19:7, 9), and no part of "the bride/wife [singular]" is left out (as in, not chosen).

Nick
Dec 12th 2013, 08:58 PM
Brother... Hosea is not written in chronological order. Earlier in the book it reveals that Ephraim/Israel will be returned, brought back into the fold so to speak.

Hosea 1:10 Yet the number of the sons of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which is not measured nor numbered. And it shall be, in the place where it is said to them, You are not My people, it shall be said to them, Sons of the Living God.

Even the names of his family (which must be defined in Hebrew) tell the story from start to finish. Hosea then goes into detail, that's all. "Ephraim" is the somewhat poetic term for Israel in the nations, as all of the Northern Kingdom's kings came from Ephraim. Even Wiki states:

"Ephraim is often seen as the tribe that embodies the entire Northern Kingdom and the royal house resided in the tribe's territory (just as Judah is the tribe that embodies the Kingdom of Judah and provided its royal family)."

So when it speaks of Ephraim in Hosea, it is a reference to all of the Northern Kingdom, Israel, who whored around on God and ultimately was sent into the nations and scattered as punishment for their sins. They were however, promised to also be called back to the fold.

I read about Ephraim again last night. My current daily Bible reading is Hosea and Revelation. I read chapters 9-11 last night (the verse in the OP was in that reading). I realize it is not written in chronological order. Hosea 9:1-17 was written during a time when Israel's leaders vacillated between alliances why Egypt and Assyria, which were both an abomination to the Lord - perhaps that is why we have such harsh language in 9:16.

This was also during a time when no one listened to the Prophets. The people either did not hear or didn't care about God's many warnings. In v.9 it shows the moral depravity of the people. They demanded to have homosexual sex with the man so he offered up his concubine instead, and they raped and abused her all night, then left her for dead in the morning. This is also recorded in Jug 19:14-30. The Israelites became as corrupt as the gods they worshipped. The prayer Hosea prayed in 9:14 was the same one recorded in 2 Kings 17:7-23. At Gilgal in 9:15 idols and kings were substituted for God. This is ironically where Saul was crowned (1 Sam 11:15). By Hosea's time Baal worship was widespread amongst the Israelites. That said why punish the children and put them to death. I've always struggled with that concept. The only answer given was to purge evil from the entire family line.

episkopos
Dec 12th 2013, 11:03 PM
I tend to agree with these insights. It seems that most in Christianity are so focused on the "either heaven or hell" perspective that not much contemplation goes into the deeper aspects of the Kingdom. Scripture certainly seems to indicate that the Bride will be a special congregation of esteemed souls, and not simply a mass assembly of anyone and everyone who has "accepted Jesus" and become a Christian. Welcome to the forum! :)

LandShark
Dec 12th 2013, 11:29 PM
Just offering my quick two cents on the "many are called, but few are chosen" phrase.

In one passage where this is found (Matthew 22:2-14nasb, v.14), the context refers to those being invited to the wedding feast ("guests [plural]"), but "the bride [singular]" is not being talked about in the passage. So I believe that the "many are called , but few are chosen" refers particularly to "guests [plural]" with regard to "the kingdom of [the] heaven[s]" (verse 2) which is on earth, and will be manifest in the earthly Millennial Kingdom at the time of His Second Coming to the earth. That is, the Millennial Kingdom is equated, I believe, with "the marriage supper/feast" (Revelation 19:9 "BLESSED are they [plural] which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb." The "bride/wife [singular]" IS mentioned, but as "already married" at that point, in that passage [Revelation 19:7]). Those "invited/called guests [plural]" must have on the proper wedding garment (for "the wedding supper/feast"), or else this: "bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth" Matthew 22:13. Again, "the bride [singular]" is not being addressed nor spoken of, in the passage... and a "bride/wife" is not "invited/called" to her own "wedding supper/feast," she's simply present there with her bridegroom ([I]already wed).

(The other passage where the "many be called, but few chosen" is found IN ONLY SOME VERSIONS [Matthew 20:1-16, v.16], is likewise set in the context of "the kingdom of [the] heaven[s]," which is on the earth.)

My view is that the phrase does not apply to "the bride [singular]," but to the "invited guests [plural]" who will be present to enter and be "blessed" in "the kingdom of [the] heaven[s]" (i.e. the earthly Millennial Kingdom; to which "many" will be "called"). "The bride/wife [singular]" (us, as I understand it [2 Corinthians 11:2--"a chaste virgin [singular]"]) will already be married at that (future) point in time (Revelation 19:7, 9), and no part of "the bride/wife [singular]" is left out (as in, not chosen).

Just tossing this in because....

There are "guests" at the wedding supper. I have come to the conclusion that the guests are the nations, those alive but not perfected at that time. Guests go home when the wedding is over (or the wine is gone :D ).

TheDivineWatermark
Dec 13th 2013, 01:04 AM
Just tossing this in because....

There are "guests" at the wedding supper. I have come to the conclusion that the guests are the nations, those alive but not perfected at that time.

Thanks for your thoughts on this! :) I think I agree with what I think it is you're saying. :D (I would add that Matthew 25:31-34 pictures this... at the time of His Second Coming to the earth.)



Guests go home when the wedding is over (or the wine is gone :D ).

As I understand it, "guests" were not invited to the "wedding" itself (as in our culture today), but only to the "wedding supper/feast" (which some say took place "7 days" after the wedding itself, in that culture and day. I'm not 100% sure of that, myself [meaning, the "7 days" apart thing], but I do know the "wedding supper/feast" took place AFTER the "wedding." :) )

And speaking of "wine," it's interesting to note that it was the bridegroom's responsibility to provide the wine at his own wedding supper/feast (John 2:9-10). This is why Jesus said to His mother, at the wedding [feast] in Cana, "mine hour is not yet come" (the hour to provide the wine at His own wedding supper/feast... is yet future). And at the Last Supper, Jesus said to the disciples, "But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of the fruit of the vine, until THAT DAY when I drink it NEW with you in My Father's kingdom" Matthew 26:29. (I believe that future kingdom is on the earth, i.e. the MK.)

I believe the future earthly Millennial Kingdom is the wedding supper/feast (or at least is timed at the beginning of that Millennial Kingdom, and their entrance into it). "The Sheep [of the nations (same word as "Gentiles")]" will be told to "inherit the kingdom..." (Matthew 25:31-34), and I believe the "10 Bridesmaids" are to serve at the wedding supper/feast (Matthew 25:1,10nasb "THEN shall the kingdom of [the] heaven[s] be likened unto..."), as well as "the servants" (Luke 12:36-37 and context to v.48), but there it says "he will gird himself... and serve them [at a meal]." These, I personally don't believe are of "the nations," as in Matthew 25:31 and context, but are referring to the same time period and to the same "event," as I see it (as well as Matthew 22:8-14nasb [which would be the "many" invited/called unto the wedding supper/feast] and Revelation 19:9 [these are "blessed," just like the ones in Matthew 25:31-34 "blessed"... as well as the ones in Daniel 12:12 "blessed" (following the last 3.5yrs of the trib)], all following the time of His Second Coming to the earth).

Thanks again for your comments! :)


Now back to your regularly scheduled OP topic. :D

Nick
Dec 13th 2013, 06:25 AM
Hosea 13:16 "Samaria shall bear her guilt,
because she has rebelled against her God;
they shall fall by the sword;
their little ones shall be dashed in pieces,
and their pregnant women ripped open."

There's punishment and then there's this.

Notes:

Hos. 13:16 The shocking atrocities mentioned were in keeping with brutalities characteristic of the Assyrians (cf. 2 Kings 17:5; Isa. 13:6; Amos 1:13; Nah. 3:10)…

Nick: I guess the takeaway here is God will punish heinous crimes with vengeance on the same level. Since God created the world through Christ, this is Christ speaking through Hosea. Can you picture Christ saying or doing the things mentioned in Hos 13:16? The concept of loving your enemy musty of been solely NT teaching. I searched and couldn't find anything related to loving your enemy in the OT.

Noeb
Dec 14th 2013, 03:38 PM
As I understand it, "guests" were not invited to the "wedding" itself (as in our culture today), but only to the "wedding supper/feast"Right, like virgins don't marry the groom but are companions of the bride -Matt 25:1, Psa 45:14.

TheDivineWatermark
Dec 14th 2013, 04:08 PM
Right, like virgins don't marry the groom but are companions of the bride -Matt 25:1, Psa 45:14.

Agreed. :thumbsup: The bridegroom (Jesus) is not coming to marry 10 virgins (bridesmaids/attendants)... or even 5. :D

And as I understand it, He will already be "married" (to ONE [wife]) at that point (before the time of the "wedding supper/feast" of Matthew 25:1,10nasb).




Sorry, Nick. :uncomfortableness: I don't have anything to add regarding Hosea 9 or 13. :D