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View Full Version : Discussion Just Some Thoughts on Yesterday's Anniversary of Martin Luther's Excommunication



Thomas Forward
Jan 5th 2014, 01:20 AM
Just some musings here and maybe there will be grace that gives pause to my brothers and sisters here to take a look for themselves at the root of what I'm musing here. My prayer is that there will be some light shed and true knowledge will be gained and cherished. I go into this with the expectation that some readers will not accept what I've stated as historic truth. That's fine but the burden of proof lies on those who disagree historically with my musings if you seek to prove something different. And here we go.

On January 3, 1521, Martin Luther was excommunicated from the Catholic Church and from what I've learned about him and the background historic context of what his protests were about, his goals and so forth, there seems to be much untold.

- Luther never ever wanted to be anything but a devout Roman Catholic, especially throughout the entire time of his protestations to the Church. The last thing he wanted was to alienate himself from the Church he loved. Perhaps a year after his excommunication he wrote to the Pope saying that "to leave Rome was the worst of all things" and Luther never wanted a schism with the Church. I can't help but wonder what he would say of the 25-30 thousand protestant denominations now present, all claiming superior sola scriptura interpretation and claiming as absolutely correct opposite doctrinal positions on nearly all facets of what we call the essentials. Is the protest more valid now than what Martin Luther protested in his day back in 1521.... now that it's split into 25000-30000 different versions?

- He had a patron saint, Saint Anna (the mother of the Virgin Mary), whom he prayed to for her prayers of intercession to the Father on his behalf along with praying for Mary's intercessory prayer.

- He very much believed in Purgatory; one of his specific theses was on the abuse of indulgences by some bishops in that by the additional offering given to the Church could decrease a passed souls time in Purgatory. He didn't protest the use of indulgences but rather the abuse of indulgences.

- He sacrificed two legs of the three-legged stool of the church. From the time before Moses, the Jews had three bases of authority: the teaching authority of Moses, the scripture, and oral tradition. These find their place in the Church as the teaching authority of the Church, the scripture, and tradition. When Martin Luther was excommunicated, he completely lost two of the legs: teaching authority and oral/written tradition. All he had left was the Sacred Scripture and this is also when he claimed sola scriptura.

- He claimed sola scriptura to be the only pillar of interpretive authority. Sola scriptura. Scripture alone, but whose scripture exactly? I was surprised to find that Martin Luther himself removed several books from the Old Testament, the canon of which included all those books in what has been the Old Testament and established since the 4th century and had been used from the 4th century up until Luther's time and still is used in the Catholic faith. He removed the last two chapters from the book of Daniel (Jerome's commentary on Tertullian's commentary on the book of Daniel cover those missing two chapters and was written at the end of the 4th century), pushed to remove from the New Testament the books of James, Hebrews, 2 Pet, Jude and Revelation and others.

- He said "there will come a time when we will have to go back to the councils of the Churches to make sense of this".


Discussion welcome and blessings to you, dear readers.

Diggindeeper
Jan 5th 2014, 03:03 AM
Thomas, your post needs to be edited and darkened print put in. Its too light to be readable.

Thomas Forward
Jan 5th 2014, 03:39 AM
Thomas, your post needs to be edited and darkened print put in. Its too light to be readable.


Oh thanks! I wondered if it might look odd. I had auto color font set and I couldn't read it on my own screen so I set it to a light color. When I just tried to edit, the auto color still looked light. So, I set it to black.

How's that look?

Protective Angel
Jan 5th 2014, 04:41 AM
Hello Thomas.

Have been doing well?

I didn't realize these things, but I'm not familiar with Bible history. I do see in one book of the Bible, that it should not be tampered with.

I'm not Catholic, but what Martin Luther did was removed God inspired words.

Thomas Forward
Jan 7th 2014, 09:57 PM
Hello Thomas.

Have been doing well?

I didn't realize these things, but I'm not familiar with Bible history. I do see in one book of the Bible, that it should not be tampered with.

I'm not Catholic, but what Martin Luther did was removed God inspired words.



I've been doing well... just kind of out of pocket, I guess. Needed some time away from this and other boards. Thanks for asking.

I'm not Catholic either but I have sort of been dropped into learning about the faith by God. I've been surprised by all the truth I've found in it so far. Really surprised. As a child I grew up with many many enemies of the Catholic faith, so that's really the only example I've ever had.

Pleasantly surprised that all that I ever heard, so far is just wrong.


Blessings, my friend.

Boo
Jan 11th 2014, 12:15 PM
Churches have changed over time. There is very little today that resembles the church that is recorded in the book of Acts. Of course, the book of Acts shows churches that did not have a New Testament.

(However, what goes around comes around. Now, there are many house churches being established because people are driven away from doctrines that they do not see as valid.)

It comes down to a few assumptions.

We assume that all of the New Testament books belong there and that God wants us to have them.

We assume that we can learn about Jesus and "all that he commanded" and live by those teachings to be faithful followers.

(How are we doing, so far?)

We split among the denominations at this point -

Now, the application of the words written in the epistles and Revelations drive people in different directions. Even with those different directions, the words of Jesus still stand.

Thomas Forward
Jan 14th 2014, 10:13 PM
Churches have changed over time. There is very little today that resembles the church that is recorded in the book of Acts. Of course, the book of Acts shows churches that did not have a New Testament.

(However, what goes around comes around. Now, there are many house churches being established because people are driven away from doctrines that they do not see as valid.)

It comes down to a few assumptions.

We assume that all of the New Testament books belong there and that God wants us to have them.

We assume that we can learn about Jesus and "all that he commanded" and live by those teachings to be faithful followers.

(How are we doing, so far?)

We split among the denominations at this point -

Now, the application of the words written in the epistles and Revelations drive people in different directions. Even with those different directions, the words of Jesus still stand.



Boo, do you think it's prudent for folks going in all different directions. Remember each believes their version of is unimpeachable truth and follow that man's tradition. "That man" being Martin Luther, John Calvin, John Nelson Darby, John and Charles Wesley, etc., etc., etc. ad infinitum.

The assumption of what New Testament books belongs belong there and which books don't: where does that assumption come from?


Blessings to you.

keck553
Jan 14th 2014, 11:49 PM
God doesn't appear to have a problem with diversity, yet all who are called sons of God are unified in Christ.

It's man that want to make rubber stamps out of everyone. That's called "religion."