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divaD
Jan 19th 2014, 05:39 PM
Matthew 21:28 But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard.
29 He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went.
30 And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not.
31 Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.
32 For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.


Here's what I'm wondering. This parable says...the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you. Does this mean they were once harlots but no longer harlots at this point, or does it mean they remain harlots, yet still go into the kingdom of God, nonetheless? It also says the same about publicans. Are publicans no longer publicans at some point? Depending on how one answers that, I would think the same should apply to the harlots as well.

chad
Jan 19th 2014, 07:37 PM
IMO, ...Jesus is talking about entering into the kingdom of God. Entry is through belief in him. Jesus speaks of two sons, one represents people under the law of Moses, the other are those who enter into the kingdom of God when the believe in Jesus, the son of God.

Tax collectors and prostitutes, those who believed in Jesus, repented of their sins were entering into the kingdom of God because they believed in Jesus and repented and were forgiven of their sins(vs 32).


(Mat 21:28 NIV) "What do you think? There was a man who had two sons. He went to the first and said, 'Son, go and work today in the vineyard.'

(Mat 21:29 NIV) "'I will not,' he answered, but later he changed his mind and went.

(Mat 21:30 NIV) "Then the father went to the other son and said the same thing. He answered, 'I will, sir,' but he did not go.

(Mat 21:31 NIV) "Which of the two did what his father wanted?" "The first," they answered. Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you.

(Mat 21:32 NIV) For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him.




Matthew 21:28 But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard.
29 He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went.
30 And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not.
31 Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.
32 For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.


Here's what I'm wondering. This parable says...the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you. Does this mean they were once harlots but no longer harlots at this point, or does it mean they remain harlots, yet still go into the kingdom of God, nonetheless? It also says the same about publicans. Are publicans no longer publicans at some point? Depending on how one answers that, I would think the same should apply to the harlots as well.

divaD
Jan 19th 2014, 07:38 PM
To give a better idea where I'm trying to go with this, consider the following as well.


James 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

It's been awhile since I read of this account in the OT. But is there anything in the OT that showed she was no longer a harlot at some point because of this? And if not, doesn't this verse say she was justified by works, regardless she was a harlot at the time? In the two resurrections to come in the future, the resurrection of the just, and the resurrection of the unjust, which resurrection does one assume she will rise in?

What got me thinking about all of this in the first place is when I read Matthew 21 earlier today, I then started thinking about OSAS vs NOSAS for some reason. Personally I am of the camp that agrees NOSAS is Biblical, thus the reason I now wonder about the harlots Jesus said will go into the kingdom of God before you. The 'you' in context not meaning us of course. But that part is not important, as far as the purpose of this thread. What is important is whether the harlots remained harlots, and still enter the kingdom of God, or did they first denounce harlotry altogether, and then enter the kingdom of God as former harlots? That's what I'm trying to determine, the fact I had never thought about this one way or the other until these things crossed my mind earlier today.

divaD
Jan 19th 2014, 07:52 PM
IMO, ...Jesus is talking about entering into the kingdom of God. Entry is through belief in him. Jesus speaks of two sons, one represents people under the law of Moses, the other are those who enter into the kingdom of God when the believe in Jesus, the son of God.

Tax collectors and prostitutes, those who believed in Jesus, repented of their sins were entering into the kingdom of God because they believed in Jesus and repented and were forgiven of their sins(vs 32).


(Mat 21:28 NIV) "What do you think? There was a man who had two sons. He went to the first and said, 'Son, go and work today in the vineyard.'

(Mat 21:29 NIV) "'I will not,' he answered, but later he changed his mind and went.

(Mat 21:30 NIV) "Then the father went to the other son and said the same thing. He answered, 'I will, sir,' but he did not go.

(Mat 21:31 NIV) "Which of the two did what his father wanted?" "The first," they answered. Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you.

(Mat 21:32 NIV) For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him.

If the harlots repented of being harlots, does this then mean the tax collectors repented of being tax collectors? I see in the text that they repented and believed, but does that then mean neither were tax collectors nor prostitutes anymore? How can prostitutes enter into the kingdom of God if they are no longer prostitutes? Why would they still be called prostitutes if they no longer were?

Curtis
Jan 19th 2014, 10:33 PM
If the harlots repented of being harlots, does this then mean the tax collectors repented of being tax collectors? I see in the text that they repented and believed, but does that then mean neither were tax collectors nor prostitutes anymore? How can prostitutes enter into the kingdom of God if they are no longer prostitutes? Why would they still be called prostitutes if they no longer were?

1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1Co 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
1Co 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

These people repented of their wrong doings, and brought forth fruit unto repentance. The prostitutes and tax collectors both repented of their wrong life style.

Luke 3:12 Tax collectors also came to be baptized and said to him, "Teacher, what shall we do?"
Luke 3:13 And he said to them, "Collect no more than you are authorized to do."

divaD
Jan 20th 2014, 04:27 PM
1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1Co 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
1Co 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

These people repented of their wrong doings, and brought forth fruit unto repentance. The prostitutes and tax collectors both repented of their wrong life style.

Luke 3:12 Tax collectors also came to be baptized and said to him, "Teacher, what shall we do?"
Luke 3:13 And he said to them, "Collect no more than you are authorized to do."



That's what I get for not checking other accounts as well first. But that still doesn't explain Rahab to me though. Still wondering which resurrection she will rise in, the fact she too was a prostitute. None of this is really about prostitutes so much, but was wondering how perfect and how good must one really need to be in order to enter into the kingdom of God to begin with?

And what about a passage like the following?


Matthew 22:9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.


Notice that it says both bad and good, yet both are welcomed as guests of this wedding..

episkopos
Jan 20th 2014, 04:39 PM
Matthew 21:28 But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard. 29 He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went. 30 And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not. 31 Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you. 32 For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him. Here's what I'm wondering. This parable says...the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you. Does this mean they were once harlots but no longer harlots at this point, or does it mean they remain harlots, yet still go into the kingdom of God, nonetheless? It also says the same about publicans. Are publicans no longer publicans at some point? Depending on how one answers that, I would think the same should apply to the harlots as well. There is much to this. We all come to Christ from a previous rebellion. So then we sin by doing less than the will of God...and we KNOW we are doing less. The blindness of the religious ones is that they have added to the will of God by making human doctrines that they think elevates them over others. So they do greater sins and don't realize they are doing so...such has their pride blinded them. So these are much harder to bring into the will of God than those who realize they are not doing right.

Curtis
Jan 21st 2014, 03:26 PM
That's what I get for not checking other accounts as well first. But that still doesn't explain Rahab to me though. Still wondering which resurrection she will rise in, the fact she too was a prostitute. None of this is really about prostitutes so much, but was wondering how perfect and how good must one really need to be in order to enter into the kingdom of God to begin with?


And what about a passage like the following?


Matthew 22:9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.


Notice that it says both bad and good, yet both are welcomed as guests of this wedding..

The Body of Christ is made up of many types of people. Some people before coming to Jesus thought they pretty good until they heard the Gospel which has this ability to reveal sin with in them. The Apostle Paul said, "... I was alive once until the commandment came and sin revived and I died..." Sin lays dormant in those who think they are good, until the Word of God comes and exposes it for what it is.
There is none good, not one. Jesus said, "why do you call me good, there none good except God" We all have gone astray, and need Jesus Christ to save us from our sins.
When we come to Jesus, that same spirit that dwelt in Jesus which over came the world is placed within us, so we too are over comers. His strength is now our strength, his righteousness is our righteousness. How can we ever loose?

Aviyah
Jan 21st 2014, 03:36 PM
I think there is an implied "former" in there. It was intended to illustrate that the people society considers the scum of the Earth will repent and be saved before the religious and self-righteous. Someone who already thinks his life is morally acceptable is less likely to feel the need to be forgiven and change.

divaD
Jan 21st 2014, 03:47 PM
I think there is an implied "former" in there. It was intended to illustrate that the people society considers the scum of the Earth will repent and be saved before the religious and self-righteous. Someone who already thinks his life is morally acceptable is less likely to feel the need to be forgiven and change.

I can see that as far as the prostitutes are concerned, so that is a valid point I guess. But what about the wedding feast, where it is furnished with guests, both good and bad? Clearly two different classes of people. The first question to ask, since I'm assuming this wedding feast has to do with Christ, when does this wedding feast take place, in relation to the 2nd coming? The reason I feel that's important, the bad guests, when do they have time to be considered as the good instead, since they're already seen as the bad, yet are welcomed guests at this wedding feast?

Kalahari
Jan 21st 2014, 03:56 PM
I can see that as far as the prostitutes are concerned, so that is a valid point I guess. But what about the wedding feast, where it is furnished with guests, both good and bad? Clearly two different classes of people. The first question to ask, since I'm assuming this wedding feast has to do with Christ, when does this wedding feast take place, in relation to the 2nd coming? The reason I feel that's important, the bad guests, when do they have time to be considered as the good instead, since they're already seen as the bad, yet are welcomed guests at this wedding feast?

Hi David

This parable taught the Jews that where salvation was just for the Jews and not for all, but for them that keep the law, thus being good. Now it has come that salvation is for all, good and bad, Jew and non-Jew. You still have to wear the garment of faith otherwise you will be taken outside.

Kalahari

Aviyah
Jan 21st 2014, 03:57 PM
I can see that as far as the prostitutes are concerned, so that is a valid point I guess. But what about the wedding feast, where it is furnished with guests, both good and bad? Clearly two different classes of people. The first question to ask, since I'm assuming this wedding feast has to do with Christ, when does this wedding feast take place, in relation to the 2nd coming? The reason I feel that's important, the bad guests, when do they have time to be considered as the good instead, since they're already seen as the bad, yet are welcomed guests at this wedding feast?

And again Jesus spoke to them in parables, saying, “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son and sent his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding feast, but they would not come. Again he sent other servants, saying, ‘Tell those who are invited, “See, I have prepared my dinner, my oxen and my fat calves have been slaughtered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding feast.”’ But they paid no attention and went off, one to his farm, another to his business, while the rest seized his servants, treated them shamefully, and killed them. The king was angry, and he sent his troops and destroyed those murderers and burned their city. Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding feast is ready, but those invited were not worthy. Go therefore to the main roads and invite to the wedding feast as many as you find.’ And those servants went out into the roads and gathered all whom they found, both bad and good. So the wedding hall was filled with guests.

“But when the king came in to look at the guests, he saw there a man who had no wedding garment. And he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you get in here without a wedding garment?’ And he was speechless. Then the king said to the attendants, ‘Bind him hand and foot and cast him into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ For many are called, but few are chosen.” (Mt. 22:1-14)

I see a similarity with this:

Then I heard what seemed to be the voice of a great multitude, like the roar of many waters and like the sound of mighty peals of thunder, crying out,

“Hallelujah! For the Lord our God the Almighty reigns. Let us rejoice and exult and give him the glory,
for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and his Bride has made herself ready; it was granted her to clothe herself with fine linen, bright and pure”— for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints. (Rev. 19:6-8)

BrianW
Jan 21st 2014, 04:17 PM
There is much to this. We all come to Christ from a previous rebellion. So then we sin by doing less than the will of God...and we KNOW we are doing less. The blindness of the religious ones is that they have added to the will of God by making human doctrines that they think elevates them over others. So they do greater sins and don't realize they are doing so...such has their pride blinded them. So these are much harder to bring into the will of God than those who realize they are not doing right.

The simplest and most direct answers are most times the correct ones. Very good post bro. A direct hit to the bullseye I'd say.

divaD
Jan 21st 2014, 05:01 PM
And again Jesus spoke to them in parables, saying, “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son and sent his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding feast, but they would not come. Again he sent other servants, saying, ‘Tell those who are invited, “See, I have prepared my dinner, my oxen and my fat calves have been slaughtered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding feast.”’ But they paid no attention and went off, one to his farm, another to his business, while the rest seized his servants, treated them shamefully, and killed them. The king was angry, and he sent his troops and destroyed those murderers and burned their city. Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding feast is ready, but those invited were not worthy. Go therefore to the main roads and invite to the wedding feast as many as you find.’ And those servants went out into the roads and gathered all whom they found, both bad and good. So the wedding hall was filled with guests.

“But when the king came in to look at the guests, he saw there a man who had no wedding garment. And he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you get in here without a wedding garment?’ And he was speechless. Then the king said to the attendants, ‘Bind him hand and foot and cast him into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ For many are called, but few are chosen.” (Mt. 22:1-14)

I see a similarity with this:

Then I heard what seemed to be the voice of a great multitude, like the roar of many waters and like the sound of mighty peals of thunder, crying out,

“Hallelujah! For the Lord our God the Almighty reigns. Let us rejoice and exult and give him the glory,
for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and his Bride has made herself ready; it was granted her to clothe herself with fine linen, bright and pure”— for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints. (Rev. 19:6-8)


Maybe what's tripping me up about that passage in Matthew 22:10 is the English word 'bad'. In the KJV doing a word search for 'bad', that English word is only used 3 times in the NT.

Matthew 13:48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.

Matthew 22:10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

In the middle one, the Greek word is different from the Greek word used for 'bad' in the other 2. Yet, in all 3 passages, the Greek word for 'good' seems to be the same in all 3. So then, as to Matthew 13:48 and 2 Corinthians 5:10, it should be pretty clear the sense for 'bad'. And speaking of Matthew 13, in that same chapter, the same Greek word that was used for 'bad' in Matthew 22:10 is used for 'wicked' in several verses in that chapter.

4190 // ponhrov // poneros // pon-ay-ros' //

from a derivative of 4192 ; TDNT - 6:546,912; adj

AV - evil 51, wicked 10, wicked one 6, evil things 2, misc 7; 76

1) full of labours, annoyances, hardships
1a) pressed and harassed by labours
1b) bringing toils, annoyances, perils; of a time full of
peril to Christian faith and steadfastness; causing pain and
trouble
2) bad, of a bad nature or condition
2a) in a physical sense: diseased or blind
2b) in an ethical sense: evil wicked, bad

For Synonyms see entry 5908
++++
The word is used in the nominative case in Mt 6:13 . This usually
denotes a title in the Greek. Hence Christ is saying, deliver us
from "The Evil", and is probably referring to Satan.
http://www.apostolic-churches.net/bible/strongs/ref/?stgh=greek&stnm=4190

This is the Greek word used for 'bad' in Matthew 22:10




2556 // kakov // kakos // kak-os' //

apparently a primary word; TDNT - 3:469,391; adj

AV - evil 40, evil things 3, harm 2, that which is evil + 3458 2,
wicked 1, ill 1, bad 1, noisome 1; 51

1) of a bad nature
1a) not such as it ought to be
2) of a mode of thinking, feeling, acting
2a) base, wrong, wicked
3) troublesome, injurious, pernicious, destructive, baneful
http://www.apostolic-churches.net/bible/strongs/ref/?stgh=greek&stnm=2556

This is the Greek word used for 'bad' in Matthew 13:48 and 2 Corinthians 5:10.

So I am still left wondering what 'bad' means in Matthew 22:10, the fact the timing of the wedding feast seems to coincide with the timing of the 2nd coming, and that there are both bad and good guests at this feast, rather than just the good only.

divaD
Jan 21st 2014, 05:03 PM
Hi David

This parable taught the Jews that where salvation was just for the Jews and not for all, but for them that keep the law, thus being good. Now it has come that salvation is for all, good and bad, Jew and non-Jew. You still have to wear the garment of faith otherwise you will be taken outside.

Kalahari

When you say good and bad, are you saying good and bad Jews and good and bad non Jews alike? Or are you saying good equals Jews, bad equals non Jews?

Kalahari
Jan 21st 2014, 05:08 PM
When you say good and bad, are you saying good and bad Jews and good and bad non Jews alike? Or are you saying good equals Jews, bad equals non Jews?

What I am saying is that there is no difference. All people good and bad can be saved. It is not by works but by grace.

episkopos
Jan 21st 2014, 05:56 PM
What I am saying is that there is no difference. All people good and bad can be saved. It is not by works but by grace.

The life of God is far above our own goodness or badness. So we all, whether good or bad...surrender our lives to be lived through Christ so that it is HIS goodness that is made manifest. THAT is Christianity.

Kalahari
Jan 21st 2014, 06:04 PM
The life of God is far above our own goodness or badness. So we all, whether good or bad...surrender our lives to be lived through Christ so that it is HIS goodness that is made manifest. THAT is Christianity.

I agree or in Afrikaans Stem saam.

evil2saved
Jan 22nd 2014, 04:29 AM
There is much to this. We all come to Christ from a previous rebellion. So then we sin by doing less than the will of God...and we KNOW we are doing less. The blindness of the religious ones is that they have added to the will of God by making human doctrines that they think elevates them over others. So they do greater sins and don't realize they are doing so...such has their pride blinded them. So these are much harder to bring into the will of God than those who realize they are not doing right.
Well said!
Personal experience:
Even as a born again Christian, I strayed away and sinned. The entire time, I knew deep down that I was sinning. The Holy Spirit was convicting me of my sins constantly, but I didn't want to acknowledge Him. I searched for scripture that would defend my sins; pretty darn foolish on my part. God is purely just and He also loves us more than we will ever know. Whether or not one is a saved Christian, we KNOW the moment that we sin. Big guilt or little guilt... it's a result of a sin. We cannot escape God's light and we have a choice to make. To be fully saved/forgiven/redeemed/born again, we have to be in 100% with God or it will not work. This does not mean that we won't sin anymore but it does mean that we have to give it all that we have to shake that sin and "suffer"; it's the inner battle that Paul often talks about. It's a step that we MUST take. "Body without the soul is dead as faith without works is dead". Thank God that our salvation is through the grace of God!!!