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jesusfreak
Apr 20th 2003, 03:53 AM
There was a baptism in my church today and it got me thinking, WHat exactly is baptism all about. Is it required, what does it do for us, why should we do it, when should people be baptized.

I was raised catholic, and therefore have been fed views like "Baptism is required for salvation". I don't beleive this, so I have decided to wipe clean the slate in that area and rethink the entire belief.

Obviously baptism is important, after all Jesus asked to be baptized. Thats why I think it is important for me to understand.

So guys please enlighten my somewhat brainwashed mind, while I continue to look around myself.

JOY
Apr 20th 2003, 04:16 AM
You are right baptism does not save us but is very important after we have accepted Jesus as our Savior.

Romans 6:3-5:
Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?

We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his.

recoveringpunker
Apr 20th 2003, 04:38 AM
Jesus did it, so it must be important.

morethansand
Apr 20th 2003, 10:37 PM
Great questions!!

The word baptism ("baptismo" in the greek) actually means immersion. What is it? Baptism is an outward act of faith that demonstrates that we have become Christians and it illustrates our total immersion into Christ (see Romans 6).

In Romans 6 (one of my favourite chapters!! :) ), it talks about how just like someone who dies has their body buried, we who are "dead to sin" have our old natural, sinful self "buried" in the waters of baptism. Christ was resurrected, and we too were "brought into newness of life." This picture in Romans 6 of burial and resurrection [both physically (of Jesus) and spiritually (of Christians) ] totally fits with baptism and someone being buried first under the water and then being raised up from the water again. So is baptism just a symbol of our spiritual rebirth? No. Baptism is an act of faith and obediance- it means putting our trust in and identifying with Christ!

Now what if you've already put your trust in Christ and are a Christian? With me, I put my trust in Christ and became a Christian when I was quite young, but some years later, I renewed my commitment and said, Jesus - take all of me!!! I was baptized because I wanted to be identified with Christ. Publicly, I wanted to identify with Christ, and spiritually - just like it talks about in Gal 3:27 "As many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ"

If you look back in the New Testament, however, I don't think the intent was for conversion to be separated from baptism. For example, when Peter was preaching in Acts 2 and the people said "What shall we do?," He said to repent and be baptised. Baptism was just part of the package! - it was an outward sign that that person was now a Christ-follower!!! See Acts 8: 12-13 "When they believed... they were baptised" Acts 18:8 "believed, and were baptised" After Philip had just finished explaining about Christ to the Etheopian eunech in Acts 8:36, the eunech said "See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptised?" The eunech saw no reason to delay! Believing and baptism went hand in hand over and over again.

Is baptism required for salvation? No. The act of baptism in itself doesn't save us. It's the "believing" part: Christ saves us as we believe in him, like John 3:16 says "...whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish..." If someone has their assurance of salvation in an act of baptism, then their assurance is in the wrong thing. I've talked with some catholic friends who were baptised as an infant and that's what they're trusting in to "get them into heaven."... that's not right. First of all, as an infant, how can one believe in Christ, repent, or recognize they are sinful? Baptism and repentance were not separated for so many of the new converts in the New Testament!

As for what time one should be baptised, I think if someone is too young to repent, then they are too young to be baptised. There's no hard and fast rules on age, etc. -except the bible shows time and time again that baptism happened very soon after the time of conversion. After all, if someone has put their faith in Christ wholeheartedly, they are identifying with Christ and what He did for them! - and that's what baptism is: a public declaration, a signing on the dotted line... it's saying yes to God!!

Well, there's a long post for you! I hope that this gives you some food for thought! In your study of this, you may want to also check out these verses. Matt 28:18-20. Galatians 3:27, Romans 6:3,4, Colossians 2:11,12

jesusfreak
Apr 21st 2003, 12:36 AM
I think I am understanding it now. Baptism isn't what saves us, it's kinda like a symbolic initiation. You decided "hey i am gonna follow Jesus" so you go get yourself baptized. It symbolizes your new life with Christ, having your flesh crucified with Him and being raised up in spirit. It's almost an initiation of sorts, proclaiming "I am with Jesus" and showing the desire for a new life.

I also agree that people should not be baptized until they are old enough to understand baptism and make the choice for themselves. In all the catholiuc baptisms i have seen(and i have seen many) it was always an infant with a sponser speaking for them. They ask "Do you reject satan and all his evil works" and the baby just stares blankly with no clue what is going on, the sponser answers, not the child. I don't agree with this at all.

I think I got it guys, thanks for your help. I am slowly going through the process of questioning everything i have been taught, finding the lies, and finding the truth.

Ta-An
Apr 21st 2003, 07:23 PM
It is wonderfull to see young people useing their heads, opening their hearts to God..... may He that is making you aware of this , plant a yearing in your heart to experience this wonderfull (for lack of a better word: )' event'.... may you be open to His guiding , in this :)

Rekd
May 9th 2003, 04:15 AM
Hey guys,
I'd like to add a new slant to this conversation. Firstly, props to 'morethansand' for a great post, however I would disagree slightly with a few things that were said (sorry!).

Firstly, I agree that baptism involves immersion, rather than a sprinkling etc. Secondly, I agree that it is Christ's sacrifice that enables us to be saved, and that it is the Lord who adds us to the church (Acts 2:47). However, I don't believe that you can be saved without having been baptised. Jesus stated to Nicodemus that you cannot see the kingdom of heaven unless you be born again (of water and of the spirit) (John 3:3-5). Furthermore, 1 Peter 3:21 shows that baptism saves us through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. So you cannot separate baptism from salvation. It is not the SOLE component of the salvation process, but it is necessary to be baptised (immersed) to be a part of the kingdom.

Cheers,
Rick

7thwatch
May 10th 2003, 03:57 AM
this is not something I have not done a really in depth study on. I'll have to do so soon.

This is my (current) opinion (it could be wrong, I just formed it spur of the moment after reading these posts and from former knowledge).

Baptism . . . I'm thinking that it is required only if you have the opportunity to do so. If someone accepts God into their heart but is on their death bed and is unable to be baptized, I don't think that God will turn them away, do you? Jesus told the thief on the cross that he was saved, but we have no record of that thief being baptized . . .

For people who do have the opportunity, I'm still undecided as to whether its required or just highly reccomended. The scripture speaks pretty strongly about it but personally I pefer to seach the topic out more completely from the bible before I come to any conclusions.

7thwatch
May 10th 2003, 04:03 AM
baptism teaches the necessity of dying to sin and rising to a new life in Christ. It is the memorial of Christs death and ressurection.

Romans 6:4 - "We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life."

Also:

Matthew 10:32 - "Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven."

Baptism gives us an oppurtunity to proclaim Jesus before our peers.

JohnO
May 13th 2003, 12:02 AM
heh i myself have just come off a study of this very topic, so i will share what I have come to understand, some of which has been already touched on by people here that I am in agreement with

Christ commanded baptism Matt28:19, and corresponding Mark record. While the Matt28:19 text baptism in .... was tampered with (if you want my sources, ask me) the whole baptise in the father.... is not there. However Christ instructs the disciples to do what they have observed with him. In John 3 and 4, Christ has them baptize people that believe...

So first you have to believe, then you are baptised in water as an outward show of that belief. This can be seen in multiple places. The water baptism is defined for remmission of sins (by John the Baptist). You are called to repent, and it begins with the baptism.

The verses that were brought up in Romans is Paul's way of showing them to repent in their ways, beginning with baptism. You were baptized into Christ, and Christ is dead.. therefore you are also dead, but alive with new life, because you are called to repent, and to stop sinning, be no more a servant to sin... if the gist of the passage.

The baptism is required for salvation (hear me out) to the degree that we are to obey Christ. Granted there are exceptions to this rule( the theif dying on the cross next to Christ), but the exceptions are few and far between. Peter elaborates on this saying.. Baptism now saves us (not the washing away of the filth, but the answer of a good consience toward God).

I liken baptism to circumcision. God told Abraham to be circumcised, him and his household. Abraham did so. Paul reveals to us that circumcision of the flesh does nothing, but it is the circumsicion of the heart that matters. Does that mean that Abraham should not have been circumcised? No, God said do it, and he did. God has told us to be baptized, and to baptize those that believe, but the water isn't magical.. it is the heart that matters.. but does that mean we should not be baptized? No, God said it, so do it.

sadly enough a good brother of Christ who I was studying this topic with, disagrees with me. It is so very simple, and yet he has blown it out of proportion, and trying to redefine it.

MrReed
May 14th 2003, 02:58 PM
This topic is always being discussed ..... and disagreed with.
I tend to be weary of someone who states they "have it right and everyone else is wrong" - haven't seen that here yet - which is good. Thank you.

Here is where I come from - and it differs from most who have replied, although I know many people on BDB who agree.

I am a believer, through study, of covenantal theology. I believe God is a covenant maker and keeper - as we see it throughout the OT and NT. I do not believe the mode is necessary. Nor do I believe baptism is required for salvation, (although we should be baptised).

My children are baptised. Now before anyone says I 'baptise to save' - please note the HUGE differance between 'Baptismal regeneration' as taught by the Catholic church...and covental baptism. I believe baptism to be a sign and seal of the covenant. As circumcision was for the Abrahmic Covenant, and the rainbow to the Noahic covenant - so it baptism to the New Covenent. Some may still agrue however, that children or infants are not included in the covenent because they can not 'confess with their mouths' or 'repent'. I would send back concept that children were included in ALL covenents in the OT - why would the new be any different.

With the exception of household baptisms (which makes no direct command to, or not to baptise babies) all other baptisms did not include infants...this I agree - however, all recorded baptisms in the NT (besides household) are applied to the first converts - of course adults.

I could go on...and I know I will bump heads with some people. I am not claiming to be 100% accurate - but feel this way through study.

Thanks

Matt14
May 16th 2003, 02:11 AM
Hi everyone,

From the scriptures I believe we are to be baptized as part of our conversion. Christ taught that a person that believes and is baptized shall be saved (Mark 16:16). This appears extremely simple. Paul, in Gal. 3:27, said, "For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ." Also, there is no example of conversion after the cross that doesn't involve baptism. Acts 2:38, though, is a very heavy 'pro-baptism' passage. In Acts 2:37, the people asked Peter, "Men and brethern, what shall we do?" Peter, of course, told them to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins. There's lots of other evidence in the scriptures that baptism is necessary to be 'in Christ,' or in the church. However, baptism before one is old enough to understand the word and believe in Christ is ineffectual.

In Christ,

keedy

MrReed
May 16th 2003, 02:27 AM
Hi everyone,

From the scriptures I believe we are to be baptized as part of our conversion. Christ taught that a person that believes and is baptized shall be saved (Mark 16:16). This appears extremely simple. Paul, in Gal. 3:27, said, "For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ." Also, there is no example of conversion after the cross that doesn't involve baptism. Acts 2:38, though, is a very heavy 'pro-baptism' passage. In Acts 2:37, the people asked Peter, "Men and brethern, what shall we do?" Peter, of course, told them to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins. There's lots of other evidence in the scriptures that baptism is necessary to be 'in Christ,' or in the church. However, baptism before one is old enough to understand the word and believe in Christ is ineffectual.


keedy,

Do you believe then, that those not baptised - or baptised as infants do not enter the Kingdom?

Matt14
May 16th 2003, 03:42 AM
Originally posted by HopeTheyDance
keedy,

Do you believe then, that those not baptised - or baptised as infants do not enter the Kingdom?

From what I read in the scriptures, my understanding is that we need to be baptized to be in Christ. Yes, I do believe this is what God wants us to do to receive and be marked with the Holy Spirit.

The Bible tells us it is necessary to have faith in order to become a Christian, so evidently an infant baptism is not the kind God's word talks about. Since baptism is for the remission of sins, infants have no need of baptism anyway, since they are not accountable for their sins until they can hear and understand the word and know that they have sin.

My main feelings are that Jesus tells us to be baptized for the remission of sins, and I want to do all I can to please the Savior and obey his commands. That's why I feel strongly about this subject.

Thanks for your reply! :)

keedy

BadDog
May 23rd 2003, 06:24 PM
FYI, there is a thread on baptism in Bible chat - I can't respond to all of them or I'll not get any work done! If you're interested, you can see my comments & those of jweaks & Doug22 there regarding this issue.

I'll briefly say that baptism is NOT necessary for eternal life. That's a gift. Jesus commanded us to baptize those that we lead to the Lord. Similar to the Lord's supper, these two "ordinances" were commanded by our Lord for us to do. Both, interestingly, are symbolic of, remind us of, the death & resurrection of the Lord.

FYI, if you've ever seen the Jesus Film you'll notice that Jesus "baptized Himself" by submerging Himself & coming back up while John looked on. FYI, that was how baptism was performed in those days. The person being baptized really baptized himself while someone spoke words over them.

I suppose that that may have changed somewhat with Christ & His disciples, but we don't have any historical data on that, that I know of.

BD

Baerly
Jul 4th 2007, 08:20 AM
There was a baptism in my church today and it got me thinking, WHat exactly is baptism all about. Is it required, what does it do for us, why should we do it, when should people be baptized.

I was raised catholic, and therefore have been fed views like "Baptism is required for salvation". I don't beleive this, so I have decided to wipe clean the slate in that area and rethink the entire belief.

Obviously baptism is important, after all Jesus asked to be baptized. Thats why I think it is important for me to understand.

So guys please enlighten my somewhat brainwashed mind, while I continue to look around myself.

PURPOSE: Water baptism is for the forgiveness of sins (Acts 2:38 ; 22:16 ; 10:48),water baptism is a part of the salvation process (Mark 16:15,16), water baptism saves (1Peter 3:21),One must be born again,after being physically born (John 3:5), By rejecting baptism we are rejecting the council of God (Luke 7:30),after water baptism the sinner is made a new creature (2Cor.5:17),water baptism puts us into Christ (Gal.3:27).when the alien sinner is baptized in water God puts the him in Christ (or the church) (Acts 2:47) (1Cor.12:13).
ACTION: Water baptism is a burial with Christ into his death. It is when we contact the blood of Jesus (Rom.6:3-6),water baptism is a burial,a person must go down into the water and come up out of the water.Notice, the Ethiopian only rejoiced after water baptism. He knew his sins were washed away at that point,not before (Acts 8:38) (Mark 1:9,10), John baptized near Aenon because there he found much water (John 3:23).
CANDIDATES : Those taught (Mt.28:19) (Isa.28:9),Believers (Mark 16:16) (Acts 8:37,38), must repent (Acts 2:38),must confess faith (Acts 36-38) (Mt.10:32,33).
INFANTS NOT NEED: (Mt.18:3) (Mark 10:13-15) (Ezekial 18:20) (Rom.14:12).

in love Baerly

Baerly
Jul 4th 2007, 08:50 AM
I think I am understanding it now. Baptism isn't what saves us, it's kinda like a symbolic initiation. You decided "hey i am gonna follow Jesus" so you go get yourself baptized. It symbolizes your new life with Christ, having your flesh crucified with Him and being raised up in spirit. It's almost an initiation of sorts, proclaiming "I am with Jesus" and showing the desire for a new life.

I also agree that people should not be baptized until they are old enough to understand baptism and make the choice for themselves. In all the catholiuc baptisms i have seen(and i have seen many) it was always an infant with a sponser speaking for them. They ask "Do you reject satan and all his evil works" and the baby just stares blankly with no clue what is going on, the sponser answers, not the child. I don't agree with this at all.

I think I got it guys, thanks for your help. I am slowly going through the process of questioning everything i have been taught, finding the lies, and finding the truth.

We all sin and sin separates us from God (Isa.59:1,2).

It is at the point of water baptism that our sins are washed away according to (Col.2:12) (Acts 2:38 ; 22:16).

1, Arise, 2.Be Baptized, 3.Wash away your sins. 4. Calling on the name of the Lord (Acts 22:16). The Ethiopian eunich rejoiced after water baptism (Acts 8:39).

The bible says water baptism saves us,just like water saved Noah (1Peter 3:21). Water baptism puts us into Christ (Gal.3:27).Water baptism puts us into the Lords church (1Cor.12:13).

Can we be saved outside the Lords church (Eph.5:23)?The Lord is the saviour of the body,and the body is the church according to (Eph.1:22,23) (Col. 1:18,24).

If we read these scriptures straight out of the bible,would we conclude that baptism saves? If that is the case,wouldn't we have to be lost spiritually before we were baptized in water to be saved?

Please notice this very important scripture which teaches us that in our day and time there is only one baptism in affect (Eph.4:5).

Let us seek the word of the Lord above all else (Mt.6:33) (Luke 6:46) (Mt.28:18-20) (Isa 8:20) (John 3:21).

May God be true and every man a liar.

in love Baerly

Equipped_4_Love
Jul 4th 2007, 05:14 PM
What about people who are afraid of water?

Is there an alternative method of baptism?

threebigrocks
Jul 4th 2007, 05:45 PM
What about people who are afraid of water?

Is there an alternative method of baptism?

There are different ways to receive water baptism. You don't necessarily have to be submerged. If you can shower, you can be baptized.

Baerly
Jul 5th 2007, 09:15 AM
What about people who are afraid of water?

Is there an alternative method of baptism?

I once studied with a person who was actually afraid of water.I told him what the bible said about the subject and I read him the biblical examples in the word of God. He got over his fear of water long enough to be immersed for the forgiveness of sin.That is called having your priorities in order.It is also called denying yourself and submitting to the Lords word.

in love Baerly

Baerly
Jul 5th 2007, 09:20 AM
There are different ways to receive water baptism. You don't necessarily have to be submerged. If you can shower, you can be baptized.

Can you prove that statement by the word of God ? If so, I will begin teaching that. I want to be in harmony with the word of God.

Don't you?

We are to speak as the oracles of God (1Peter 4:11).

We are to prove all things (1Thess.5:21).


in love Baerly

threebigrocks
Jul 5th 2007, 02:28 PM
Baerly -

If one can they ought to be. My intent was to say that fear of water (we all shower, bathe) shouldn't keep us from becoming baptized. If as you say they can get over it long enough, then that's what ought to be done.

How about if they can't get over the fear, or the handicapped or those that would be very difficult, impossible or impractical for whatever reason to fully submerge them? I do not believe the Lord would scowl on them if they were not.

As to cloudbursts question: There is no alternate to water baptism.

freshstart
Jul 5th 2007, 02:51 PM
Baerly -

If one can they ought to be. My intent was to say that fear of water (we all shower, bathe) shouldn't keep us from becoming baptized. If as you say they can get over it long enough, then that's what ought to be done.

How about if they can't get over the fear, or the handicapped or those that would be very difficult, impossible or impractical for whatever reason to fully submerge them? I do not believe the Lord would scowl on them if they were not.

As to cloudbursts question: There is no alternate to water baptism.

but does it have to be full emmersion????

i know i would be very scared of that...

threebigrocks
Jul 5th 2007, 07:25 PM
but does it have to be full emmersion????

i know i would be very scared of that...

That is something you ought to talk to your pastor on. IMHO, no, it doesn't have to. But it's not a large vast amount of water, it's not that deep, and it only lasts for a moment. Pray on it, okay?

Baerly
Jul 6th 2007, 09:51 AM
but does it have to be full emmersion????

i know i would be very scared of that...

Since it is the word of God that will judge us in the end,it is best to see what the Lord had to say about the subject of water baptism and follow that example (John 12:48) (1Peter 4:11).

When we read about the Ethiopian eunich in (Acts 8:36-38) we learn that they both went down into the water and came up out of the water. This biblical example clearly rules out sprinkling or pouring.

We learn in (Rom.6:1-5) that it must be a burial and it is during this water burial that we come in contact with the death of Jesus (Rom.6:4).

It is at this point we come in contact with the blood of Jesus which cleanses our sins (Col.2:12).

When we rise from that watery grave we rise with Christ to walk in newness of life (Rom.6:4) (2Cor.5:17). This sounds like what the Ethiopian Eunich done (Acts 8:36-38). He was buried (immersed)with water about him. It also explains why the Ethiopian was rejoicing after water baptism (Acts 8:39). He was rejoicing because his sins were washed away according to (Acts 22:16).

We learn that John the baptizer baptized near Aenon because there was much water near that location (John 3:23).

It is always best to study the sum total of what the word of God says on any subject and then make a judgment upon that biblical information.

Let me also address going to Websters Dictionary to learn about water baptism (Acts 8:38). This is a big mistake. Do not go to a worldly book to seek information about a spiritual matter.That is not wise.

It is best to read all examples of people being baptized within the New Testament and if the word of God tells you to sprinkle or pour water over peoples head to biblically baptize some one, do it. But that will not be found in the bible (N.T.Law). On the other hand if the bible examples teach us about a burial,or immersion,let us abide in the apostles doctrine (Acts 2:42) (John 15:6) (Rom.6:4) (Col.2:12).

in love Baerly

Baerly
Jul 6th 2007, 10:04 AM
[quote=threebigrocks;1312539]Baerly - .

How about if they can't get over the fear, or the handicapped or those that would be very difficult, impossible or impractical for whatever reason to fully submerge them? I do not believe the Lord would scowl on them if they were not.

quote]

The Lord tells us to deny ourselves and put his will first above our wants and desires. So there is no excuse for not obeying the words of Jesus (Mark 16:16) (John 9:31) (Heb.5:8,9) (Acts 10:34,35) (1Tim.4:11).

As far as the handicapped,where there is a will there is a way.The benefits of eternity well outweigh any inconvenience it may cause someone to be immersed like the word of God commands (Mt.28:19) (Mark16:16) (Acts 8:38) (Acts 10:48) (Acts 22:16).


in love Baerly

threebigrocks
Jul 6th 2007, 03:54 PM
Submerge someone with Cystic Fibrosis? Or another who cannot hold their breathe for even a second? If you can get a hoist for someone in a wheel chair, or someone who can help them and hold them into a pool we ought to. Take them down to the lake in something that floats. No short cuts if it's possible. I'm not saying take the easy way out. ;)

We must remember that it's faith through grace, not the water, that saves. Obedience is required on many many things but there are times where limitations stop someone from going under water and sometimes even in the water. The vast majority of Christians should have absolutely no qualms about being baptized biblically in the manner that Jesus required it.

Pastor Dennis
Jul 7th 2007, 04:08 PM
I once baptized a woman who couldn't get into the baptism tank filled with water. I obtained a shallow but long and wide kind of plastic container from a plant nursery. It was big enough for someone to kneel in. She knelt in this before the congregation, and I used a jug to pour water over her head.
My justification for this was that the water wasn't what made her baptism efficacious... a true baptism. It was her witness in the manner that was possible for her that was her baptism.

Baerly
Jul 7th 2007, 08:09 PM
Submerge someone with Cystic Fibrosis? Or another who cannot hold their breathe for even a second? If you can get a hoist for someone in a wheel chair, or someone who can help them and hold them into a pool we ought to. Take them down to the lake in something that floats. No short cuts if it's possible. I'm not saying take the easy way out. ;)

We must remember that it's faith through grace, not the water, that saves. Obedience is required on many many things but there are times where limitations stop someone from going under water and sometimes even in the water. The vast majority of Christians should have absolutely no qualms about being baptized biblically in the manner that Jesus required it.

1.Do you contend that we are saved by faith through grace alone? If so, please give me the scripture which teaches this.

If I am not mistaken (1Peter 3:21) teaches us that people in the new testament are saved by water just like Noah was "saved by water".

We are not saved by water alone.

We are not saved by any [one] thing alone.

The bible teaches we are saved by faith,hope,love,obedience,the blood of Jesus,baptism,water,grace,the word and living righteously.

If we looked at Naaman in (2Kings5) he was saved by several things,hearing,believing,obedience,repentance,subm ission to the word of the prophet,the water and dipping seven times in a particular river.
If he had rejected any [one] of those things listed above he would have died a lepor. It is the same way with N.T conversion.

The bible says baptism saves,and your telling me water baptism does not save. Who should I believe you or the bible (1Peter 3:21)?

in love Baerly

Baerly
Jul 7th 2007, 08:25 PM
I once baptized a woman who couldn't get into the baptism tank filled with water. I obtained a shallow but long and wide kind of plastic container from a plant nursery. It was big enough for someone to kneel in. She knelt in this before the congregation, and I used a jug to pour water over her head.
My justification for this was that the water wasn't what made her baptism efficacious... a true baptism. It was her witness in the manner that was possible for her that was her baptism.

Does the example you used above harmonize with what we learn in (Acts 8:38). They both went down into the water and came up out of the water.

Also notice (Rom.6:4) - Therefore we are buried with him...

If my puppy died and I buried him in the back yard,does that mean I poured or sprinkled water over his head? Or did I actually dig a hole and put the puppy completely in the ground and cover him with dirt?

I do not mean to be funny or sarcastic. I am trying to make a point that should be clear to all of us. We are not only talking about baptism,but rather eternity.That is what makes this discussion carry much more weight.

For the most part,it is not about the person who physically cannot be buried in water,rather it is a rejection of able bodied people (Luke 7:30).

in love Baerly

Pastor Dennis
Jul 8th 2007, 04:17 AM
For the most part,it is not about the person who physically cannot be buried in water,rather it is a rejection of able bodied people (Luke 7:30).

in love Baerly
No problem about people who are able to go down into the water. But in real life there will be occasions and people who (physically) absolutely cannot meet the Biblical injunction - as it is observed in most church settings, of a baptismal tank with steps going down into the water. For these, and only for these, some alternative means has to be adopted to enable their desire to witness to their faith in this regard to be met.

disiple56
Jul 8th 2007, 04:54 AM
It is at the point of water baptism that our sins are washed away according to (Col.2:12) (Acts 2:38 ; 22:16).





Matthew 9:2.
Some men brought to him a paralytic, lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, "Take heart, son; your sins are forgiven."



Luke 7:44-50.
Then he turned toward the woman and said to Simon, "Do you see this woman? I came into your house. You did not give me any water for my feet, but she wet my feet with her tears and wiped them with her hair. You did not give me a kiss, but this woman, from the time I entered, has not stopped kissing my feet. You did not put oil on my head, but she has poured perfume on my feet. Therefore, I tell you, her many sins have been forgiven—for she loved much. But he who has been forgiven little loves little."
Then Jesus said to her, "Your sins are forgiven."
The other guests began to say among themselves, "Who is this who even forgives sins?"
Jesus said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."


Luke 23:40-43.
But the other criminal rebuked him. "Don’t you fear God," he said, "since you are under the same sentence? We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong."
Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.’"
Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

Here is clear bibical evidence of people being forgiven without having been baptized. It is when we confess our sins and repent, putting our trust in the blood of Jesus that we are forgiven.

There is one passage in the bible where a man asked Jesus what was necessary to have eternal life and Jesus never even mentioned baptism. If it were essential for salvation don't you think Jesus would have said so?

Luke 10:25-28.
On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
"What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?"
He answered: " ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ "
"You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live."

Tanya~
Jul 8th 2007, 05:15 AM
There was a baptism in my church today and it got me thinking, WHat exactly is baptism all about. Is it required, what does it do for us, why should we do it, when should people be baptized.

Yes, baptism is required. Jesus commanded His disciples to baptize.

Baptism is the Biblically ordained initiation into the Christian faith. It portrays the gospel, and the person's belief in and identification with the gospel -- Jesus died for our sins, was buried, and rose again from the dead. In baptism a person is submerged in the water symbolizing their death with Christ and burial with Him, then taken up again symbolizing their new life and hope of a future resurrection. Read Romans 6, Col 2:12.


I was raised catholic, and therefore have been fed views like "Baptism is required for salvation". I don't beleive this, so I have decided to wipe clean the slate in that area and rethink the entire belief.Catholic baptism is different from Biblical baptism. Biblical baptism is for believers, for people who hear the gospel, believe it, and want to receive Christ. Catholic baptism is to "remove original sin" and the person being baptized is usually a baby.


Obviously baptism is important, after all Jesus asked to be baptized. Thats why I think it is important for me to understand. Yes, His baptism showed something very significant. It portrayed His death and resurrection, but it also connected water baptism with the approval of the Father and the reception of the Holy Spirit. This carries forward in the rest of the NT, for example, see Acts 2:38 and 2 Pet 3:21.


So guys please enlighten my somewhat brainwashed mind, while I continue to look around myself.I would strongly encourage you to use a concordance and look up every appearance in Scripture of baptism (all forms of the word) and the context. If you read about it and prayerfully consider, you will get a Biblical view of the subject. People will tell you all sorts of different things, but they aren't the Bible. Be a Berean and listen to what others have to say, but search the Scriptures to see whether or not it's so.

threebigrocks
Jul 8th 2007, 05:30 PM
Yes, baptism is required. Jesus commanded His disciples to baptize.

Baptism is the Biblically ordained initiation into the Christian faith. It portrays the gospel, and the person's belief in and identification with the gospel -- Jesus died for our sins, was buried, and rose again from the dead. In baptism a person is submerged in the water symbolizing their death with Christ and burial with Him, then taken up again symbolizing their new life and hope of a future resurrection. Read Romans 6, Col 2:12.



Baptism is our first act of obedience as a new believer. Our initiation into the faith happens when we repent and take Christ as our Lord and Savior. We are no less saved, our faith is no less, before baptism. Baptism is a proclaimation of what we already believe, done in obedience to Christ.

We do not start with baptism, but the act of baptism is one that follows being born again. Faith first, then obedience. Any other way and what are we being obedient to?

Tanya~
Jul 8th 2007, 06:05 PM
Baptism is our first act of obedience as a new believer. Our initiation into the faith happens when we repent and take Christ as our Lord and Savior.

My understanding from the Bible, is that new believers were baptized in order to take Christ as our Lord and Savior. "For as many as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ." Today, people do a "sinner's prayer" instead. I don't think this is how God meant it to be -- at any rate, we don't see any examples of this in Scripture.

I don't think Scripture holds up baptism just as an act of obedience, since the Apostles didn't teach it that way as far as I can tell. They didn't present it as an option, and they weren't so careful, as people are today, to make sure everyone knows that baptism doesn't really do anything. They treated it as very important. They presented the gospel, then everyone who believed was immediately baptized. There wasn't a big ceremony or anything the way it's done today, they just did it.


Acts 16:29-34
29 Then he called for a light, ran in, and fell down trembling before Paul and Silas. 30 And he brought them out and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"

31 So they said,"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household." 32 Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. 33 And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their stripes. And immediately he and all his family were baptized. 34 Now when he had brought them into his house, he set food before them; and he rejoiced, having believed in God with all his household.


We are no less saved, our faith is no less, before baptism. Baptism is a proclaimation of what we already believe, done in obedience to Christ.

I agree that baptism proclaims what we believe -- it does more than proclaim. It identifies you with Jesus' death and resurrection through the action of being submerged in water then taken back up. I don't think Scripture portrays baptism as primarily a public proclamation though. It seemed more to be the thing that the believer did before God, as an appeal to God for a clean conscience.


We do not start with baptism, but the act of baptism is one that follows being born again. Faith first, then obedience. Any other way and what are we being obedient to?

According to the Scripture the gospel is preached, the person believes, then they are baptized. I don't think of baptism as more of an act of obedience than a 'sinner's prayer.' It's just the Biblical way of receiving Christ.

threebigrocks
Jul 8th 2007, 06:38 PM
According to the Scripture the gospel is preached, the person believes, then they are baptized. I don't think of baptism as more of an act of obedience than a 'sinner's prayer.' It's just the Biblical way of receiving Christ.

The person believes and then are baptized. To me, truly believing is receiving Christ, being reborn through faith. If we receieve Christ, we accept the One who sent HIm. If we accept the One who sent Him, we are in Him and He in us - the Spirit.

Luke 10


16"The one who listens to you listens to Me, and the one who rejects you rejects Me; and he who rejects Me rejects the One who sent Me."


Galatians 2



19"For through the Law I died to the Law, so that I might live to God. 20"I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.



Matthew 3


10"The axe is already laid at the root of the trees; therefore every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
11"As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. 12"His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."



And, here we are told that the chaff will be burnt up but the wheat will be spared. Obedience in correlation with baptism of the Spirit, symbolized by water baptism because of believing through faith in Christ.

Baerly
Jul 11th 2007, 01:14 AM
No problem about people who are able to go down into the water. But in real life there will be occasions and people who (physically) absolutely cannot meet the Biblical injunction - as it is observed in most church settings, of a baptismal tank with steps going down into the water. For these, and only for these, some alternative means has to be adopted to enable their desire to witness to their faith in this regard to be met.

It matters a great deal [who] commands an alternative way of baptizing people. Jesus is given all authority (Mt.28:18-20). If anyone is going to give us [an alternative] way of baptizing someone we best allow our Lord to do it,beyond that a person is going on assumption (1Peter 4:11) (1Cor.4:6) (Deut.4:2) (Rev,22:18,19).

Assumption got Nadab and Abihu in trouble in (Lev.10:1-3),it also got Uzzah killed even though he [thought] he was doing something good when he tried to steady the ark (2Sam.6:7). Our Lords thoughts are not ours and his ways are not our ways (Isa 55:8,9). It seems people who did not respect the word of God died at times.This worries me,how about you?.

I know this,where there is a will there is a way. Is it that it is impossible to baptize some or is it that some are not willing to go through the trouble to do it. God gives us examples in the bible for a reason (Acts 8:38,38) (Rom.15:4) (1Cor.10:11).

in love Baerly

threebigrocks
Jul 11th 2007, 01:47 AM
I think we can all agree that baptism is biblical, as a symbolic and necessary part of being renewed in Christ through grace. It is indeed a command by Christ for the apostles to go out and baptize in His name.

The fact we disagree on other points does not change those facts. Baerly, we are not saying that everyone gets to pick and choose because they don't want to get wet or it's too much trouble to bother. What we are saying is why turn away people because they just cannot recieve a baptism like everyone else? There are ways to make it so with special effort on OUR part to see that everyone has the ability to be obedient and follow through with water baptism. Everyone can recieve.

Baerly
Jul 11th 2007, 01:49 AM
Matthew 9:2.
Some men brought to him a paralytic, lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, "Take heart, son; your sins are forgiven."



Luke 7:44-50.
Then he turned toward the woman and said to Simon, "Do you see this woman? I came into your house. You did not give me any water for my feet, but she wet my feet with her tears and wiped them with her hair. You did not give me a kiss, but this woman, from the time I entered, has not stopped kissing my feet. You did not put oil on my head, but she has poured perfume on my feet. Therefore, I tell you, her many sins have been forgiven—for she loved much. But he who has been forgiven little loves little."
Then Jesus said to her, "Your sins are forgiven."
The other guests began to say among themselves, "Who is this who even forgives sins?"
Jesus said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."


Luke 23:40-43.
But the other criminal rebuked him. "Don’t you fear God," he said, "since you are under the same sentence? We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong."
Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.’"
Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

Here is clear bibical evidence of people being forgiven without having been baptized. It is when we confess our sins and repent, putting our trust in the blood of Jesus that we are forgiven.

There is one passage in the bible where a man asked Jesus what was necessary to have eternal life and Jesus never even mentioned baptism. If it were essential for salvation don't you think Jesus would have said so?

Luke 10:25-28.
On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
"What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?"
He answered: " ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ "
"You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live."

It is always good to go to the scriptures,but it is very important to keep them in context. Would you go to the N.T.Law to find out how to sacrifice a bull? No.

Here is my point, In each of the text you listed, please notice Jesus was speaking to someone. This means he (Jesus) had not died upon the cross and the O.T Law was still in affect.

We must understand this important point. The N.T. Law did not go into affect until Jesus actually died upon the cross (Heb.9:15-17)
As long as a person is living they can give away their possesions to anyone they wish. That is what Jesus done with the people you listed above. But when Jesus died,his N.T Law went into affect (Heb.8:6-13 ; 9:15-17).After his death he commands everyone to be baptized for the forgiveness of sins (Acts 2:38 ; 8:38,39 ; 10:48 ; 16:33 ; 22:16) (Mark 16:16) (Mt.28:19-20).

Even the thief on the cross lived under the O.T. Law. And that was just a few minutes before the death of Jesus,but as long as Jesus was living he could give away his posessions any way he wished.

Here is a good biblical lesson on the thief on the cross.

http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/2321

in love Baerly

Brotherken
Jul 11th 2007, 01:57 AM
I Just had to post here and Confess...

I want to Be Baptized SOOO Bad


I need to Find a Church and a Pastor that will do it for me
I want to invite my wife and my family and friends any anyone else that will come.

The Lord has really Lay-ed it on my heart the past few days!

And I really Really want to!

Please Pray for me!!

threebigrocks
Jul 11th 2007, 01:59 AM
I Just had to post here and Confess...

I want to Be Baptized SOOO Bad


I need to Find a Church and a Pastor that will do it for me
I want to invite my wife and my family and friends any anyone else that will come.

The Lord has really Lay-ed it on my heart the past few days!

And I really Really want to!

Please Pray for me!!

That's wonderful! :pp Visit a few churches, find time to talk to the pastor about your wishes and their beliefs and be baptized my friend!

Baerly
Jul 11th 2007, 02:43 AM
I think we can all agree that baptism is biblical, as a symbolic and necessary part of being renewed in Christ through grace. It is indeed a command by Christ for the apostles to go out and baptize in His name.

The fact we disagree on other points does not change those facts. Baerly, we are not saying that everyone gets to pick and choose because they don't want to get wet or it's too much trouble to bother. What we are saying is why turn away people because they just cannot recieve a baptism like everyone else? There are ways to make it so with special effort on OUR part to see that everyone has the ability to be obedient and follow through with water baptism. Everyone can recieve.

The problem is that people are picking and choosing. They are choosing [how] they want to be baptized, [why] they want to be baptized,and [who] gets baptized. God did not leave those choices to us. God said a person must believe and repent and confess before they are a candidate to be baptized in water for the forgiveness of their sins (John 8:24) (Luke 13:3) (Rom.10:9). That would leave out babies and very young children because they would not be able to understand these things (Luke 1:4) (John 8:32 ; 17:17).

The reason we would not baptize any other way than the biblical example is because of the respect for Gods word and a healthy fear of our Lord who killed many because of disobedience (Rom.11:22) (1Cor.10) (1Peter 4:11) (1Thess.4:1-3) (1John 3:7) (Psa.119:172).

We are not talking only about what some call, an optional matter, but eternity for some. It is very possible the way we baptize people will affect where they spend eternity (Acts 8:38,39).

Do you think Nadab and Abihu were thinking at the time they got fire from another location that God would burn them to death for doing such a thing? (Lev.10:1-3). Most likely not,but God burned them to death in front of the people for a warning to the congregation. It is also a lesson for us to learn (Rom.15:4) (1Cor.10:11).

in love Baerly

threebigrocks
Jul 11th 2007, 03:27 AM
The problem is that people are picking and choosing. They are choosing [how] they want to be baptized, [why] they want to be baptized,and [who] gets baptized. God did not leave those choices to us. God said a person must believe and repent and confess before they are a candidate to be baptized in water for the forgiveness of their sins (John 8:24) (Luke 13:3) (Rom.10:9). That would leave out babies and very young children because they would not be able to understand these things (Luke 1:4) (John 8:32 ; 17:17).

The reason we would not baptize any other way than the biblical example is because of the respect for Gods word and a healthy fear of our Lord who killed many because of disobedience (Rom.11:22) (1Cor.10) (1Peter 4:11) (1Thess.4:1-3) (1John 3:7) (Psa.119:172).

We are not talking only about what some call, an optional matter, but eternity for some. It is very possible the way we baptize people will affect where they spend eternity (Acts 8:38,39).

Do you think Nadab and Abihu were thinking at the time they got fire from another location that God would burn them to death for doing such a thing? (Lev.10:1-3). Most likely not,but God burned them to death in front of the people for a warning to the congregation. It is also a lesson for us to learn (Rom.15:4) (1Cor.10:11).

in love Baerly

And, the church nowadays in many places does not follow biblical baptism, or much of anything biblical. But we cannot become so legalistic with things of grace that we remove the grace.

So, how would we present the case for baptism to someone who wanted to know "What's the point?" How can we present it so that it is biblical and understood? What is the purpose, what is the effect?

If that post above was presented the way you wrote it, I am not certian that they would understand. So, to answer the OP question, how can we present baptism to explain it clearly?

Baerly
Jul 11th 2007, 09:40 PM
And, the church nowadays in many places does not follow biblical baptism, or much of anything biblical. But we cannot become so legalistic with things of grace that we remove the grace.

So, how would we present the case for baptism to someone who wanted to know "What's the point?" How can we present it so that it is biblical and understood? What is the purpose, what is the effect?

If that post above was presented the way you wrote it, I am not certian that they would understand. So, to answer the OP question, how can we present baptism to explain it clearly?

The good and honest heart will seek and find (Mt.6:33) (Luke 8:15) (Luke 6:46).

Here are a few good biblical lessons on the subject of water baptism.

"Essentials of Baptism" - http://www.gospelpreceptor.com/ClarkeB1.htm

"Bible Baptism vs Baptist Baptism" - http://www.gospelpreceptor.com/CoxFL001.htm

"Water In Gods Plan Of Salvation" - http://www.gospelpreceptor.com/Ruffnr32.htm

"Salvation Without Baptism" - http://www.gospelpreceptor.com/Ruffnr10.htm

in love Baerly

Baerly
Jul 11th 2007, 11:26 PM
And, the church nowadays in many places does not follow biblical baptism, or much of anything biblical. But we cannot become so legalistic with things of grace that we remove the grace.

So, how would we present the case for baptism to someone who wanted to know "What's the point?" How can we present it so that it is biblical and understood? What is the purpose, what is the effect?

If that post above was presented the way you wrote it, I am not certian that they would understand. So, to answer the OP question, how can we present baptism to explain it clearly?

Here is a response to a person who thought the apostle Paul became a Christian on the road to Demascus without water baptism (Acts 9:5).
Jesus is a heavenly vessel,we are taught the gospel through or by only earthly vessels according to (2Cor.4:7).

Baerly writes :- Are you telling me that the way the Lord accepts his people when their sins are forgiven is that he BLINDS THEM? That is what happen when Saul met the Lord.And your right,a person cannot have part with God unless he has his sins forgiven (Isaiah 59:1,2).

The Lord did not tell Saul what to do to have his sins remitted either,the Lord told Saul to go listen to a preacher. Ananius told Saul the solution to the sin problem. He said BE BAPTIZED AND WASH YOUR SINS AWAY.When we obey the Lord we are calling on the name of the Lord according to (Acts 22:16). Here the words baptized and washing, together in the same sentence helps us to understand how (Titus 3:5) has a bearing on the plan of salvation.

Let me deal with the baptizing and washing your sins away being two separate things happening.Your correct in the sense that as man is baptized in the water, it is God who washes our sins away (Eph.1:7) (Rom.6:18). Can you see two different things happening there? This is all explained in (Col.2:12). When were 1. buried with him in baptism....we have faith that 2.God is washing our sins away like he promised to do in (Acts 2:38) (Heb.8:12) (Acts 22:16).

Now let me deal with (1John 1:9). This verse has NOTHING to do with those outside of Christ (non-christians). The book of (1John ) was wrote to Christians. In other words, they were already Christians,This message was wrote to Christians telling them God has a SECOND LAW OF PARDON,but a person first must be a christian to participate in this second law of pardon. We see both Laws of pardon found within (Acts 8).

To become a Christian one follows (Acts 8:5,12) & (Acts 8:35-39). After becoming a Christian Simon tried to buy the gift to do miracles (vs.19). Peter loving Simon told him the truth,He would perish because of what he had done.Then Peter told Simon the second Law of pardon. He said, REPENT AND PRAY to be forgiven. (vs.24) Simon done what any person would do who has a good and honest heart (Luke 8:15), he asks Peter to pray for him. There we have the two laws of pardon. One to become a christian (Acts 8:35-39) and the other we find in (1John 1:9) and (Acts 8:22) which is for Christians to be forgiven when we sin. This is why Christians do not need to be baptized every time we sin and leave the church and then come back after being away from the church for a long time (Heb.10:25,26).

Please notice (Rom.6:17,18) tells us that when you OBEYED that form of DOCTRINE you were THEN MADE FREE FROM SIN . When did they obey ? It tells us in the first part of (ROM.6:3-6), when they were baptized in water. So when we are baptized in water were made free from SIN. That is what the bible says PLAINLY, NOT ME.

Here is a good lesson on legalism - http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/2265

in love Baerly

Matt14
Jul 12th 2007, 02:56 PM
And, the church nowadays in many places does not follow biblical baptism, or much of anything biblical. But we cannot become so legalistic with things of grace that we remove the grace.

So, how would we present the case for baptism to someone who wanted to know "What's the point?" How can we present it so that it is biblical and understood? What is the purpose, what is the effect?

If that post above was presented the way you wrote it, I am not certian that they would understand. So, to answer the OP question, how can we present baptism to explain it clearly?
Did someone say "baptism?" :D

It's sorta like the "Bat signal" for Matt14! :lol:

How can we explain baptism so people can understand it? Simply put, just like the Bible does!

Paul says in Galatians 3:26-29:

Gal 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

It is because of faith in Christ that we are sons (and daughters, of course) of God. But what all does faith entail?

Gal 3:27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

It entails putting on Christ in obedience, for one, which includes baptism. It involves being "clothed" with Christ, so that God sees the righteousness of Christ when He looks at us (Col. 3:1-3)!

What does it mean to be "in Christ?" Well, imagine a coat laying on your bed. If you are not wearing it, you are not "covered" by it. But put it on, and you are "in" it, and covered by it. In the same way, a believer who is baptized for the remission of sins is "in" Christ and covered by Him, so that God sees Him, not us. But there's more.

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Christians are all bound together by entering into this New Covenant in the blood of Christ. And...

Gal 3:29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

If you have been baptized into Christ, and have put Him on, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs to the promise.

If you haven't been baptized into Christ, then you are not Abraham's seed, or an heir.

If this does not speak of the necessity of the baptism of a believer, I don't know what else to say. The scriptures speak it plainly.

When Peter said, "Repent and be baptized," I think that was pretty simple and easy to understand.

God bless!

-

Brotherken
Jul 12th 2007, 11:21 PM
Im Going to Be Baptized ASAP
Not Because I think it will save me, But Out of Obedience
Because I believe that I am Saved.

Jesus Told the Thief on the Cross next to Him that He would be in Paradise with Him.

Was that thief Babtized?


42 He said to Jesus, "Lord, remember me when you come into your Kingdom."

43 Jesus said to him, "Assuredly I tell you, today you will be with me in Paradise."

Matt14
Jul 12th 2007, 11:50 PM
Im Going to Be Baptized ASAP
Not Because I think it will save me, But Out of Obedience
Because I believe that I am Saved.

Jesus Told the Thief on the Cross next to Him that He would be in Paradise with Him.

Was that thief Babtized?


42 He said to Jesus, "Lord, remember me when you come into your Kingdom."

43 Jesus said to him, "Assuredly I tell you, today you will be with me in Paradise."
The thief lived under a differnet covenant, Ken. :) Hebrews proves this:

Heb 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
Heb 9:16 For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
Heb 9:17 For a testament is in force after men are dead, since it has no power at all while the testator lives.

While Jesus lived on earth, He dispensed forgiveness however He chose. But now that His covenant is in effect, all men are bound by it. That covenant includes baptism for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38), and Jesus then personally adds the baptized believer to the saved (the church, Acts 2:47).

Since baptism is for the remission of sins, and adds one to the church, and adds one to the seed promise (Gal. 3:26-29), one cannot be saved without it.

God bless you!

-

Ninna
Jul 12th 2007, 11:55 PM
Did someone say "baptism?"

It's sorta like the "Bat signal" for Matt14!

I must say I wondered where you were in this thread....thought maybe the "signal" got weak!:lol:

Sorry for the interruption - back to topic.....

Brotherken
Jul 14th 2007, 02:44 AM
Ok Matt,

Well what about this, "We are Saved By Faith and not Works" Right?

Wouldn't being Babtized Be a "Work"?

I do remember reading that, All one must do to be saved is,
Believe and Confess that Jesus is Lord

What about that?

Tanya~
Jul 14th 2007, 03:58 AM
In what way is baptism a work? How is confessing not a work but being baptized a work?

Brotherken
Jul 14th 2007, 04:15 PM
In what way is baptism a work? How is confessing not a work but being baptized a work?

I was wondering that as I was typing that post....

Tanya, You Know what?..
I was just Repeating what I had heard from a radio bible teacher.
I don't know Nuttin

One thing I do Know is...

Im gonna get myself Babtized ASAP

threebigrocks
Jul 14th 2007, 06:40 PM
I was wondering that as I was typing that post....

Tanya, You Know what?..
I was just Repeating what I had heard from a radio bible teacher.
I don't know Nuttin

One thing I do Know is...

Im gonna get myself Babtized ASAP

For the sake of discussion, what would you tell someone about your drive to become baptized? Why are you so driven? :)

Brotherken
Jul 14th 2007, 07:14 PM
For the sake of discussion, what would you tell someone about your drive to become baptized? Why are you so driven? :)

That Is a really good Question.

Hmmm...
I took a while to think bout that......

I really Don't know...I assume it is The Lord putting it on my heart
That is really all I can think of..

You May or May not know, But.
About 7 or 8 weeks ago, I decided To Finally stop Running from God


I think I have been a Christian since I was 8 or 9 years old,
That's when I 1st said the "sinners prayer"
Anyway I when I was a teen I was aware of God and aware that he was watching me.
But I went my own way, Trying to live by the Golden Rule, and Often Praying to god
But for some reason, I wanted to do Drugs and drink and Have sex.
(the Sins of my youth maybe?)
I told Myself(and God) That I wasn't hurting anyone...

When ever the drugs or drinking got out of hand, I would pray for deliverance and God would come though in one way or another.
The last time was 8 years ago and I haven't touched drugs since. I still thank god for that. Cause I was hooked and could not have stopped without Gods help..


Recently My wife told me(more than once now that I think bout it)
She told me, that I say Hurtful things to people sometimes...and I should think before I speak.
And When I said I didn't realize that...and that I thought I was a fairly "nice person" She laughed! and said "no your not!"
That was it! I needed God to help me Become a Better person
I Don't want to hurt People
I Have always Had Compassion for people...I don't wanna hurt them..
I believe he Has been Patiently waiting for me to come back to him and Now,
I am Finally Ready to Be Obedient

Something Inside Me Longs to Be closer than ever to the lord.
And something tells me I need to be Babtized.

Wow...That turned out to be kinda like a Testamony....

Thats not the whole thing...But I can't sit here and Tell my Life stroy...lol
Right now anyway...lol
I do belive he is calling me back to him...and I love the Lord with all my heart...
I love him for loving me
I want to please him...

Matt14
Jul 14th 2007, 08:08 PM
Ok Matt,

Well what about this, "We are Saved By Faith and not Works" Right?

Wouldn't being Babtized Be a "Work"?

I do remember reading that, All one must do to be saved is,
Believe and Confess that Jesus is Lord

What about that?
Obeying a command of God is not a work. :) If it was, then repentance would be a "work" also.

There are different kinds of works, anyway. Some are commanded by God. Some are no longer required, such as obedience to the Law of Moses. When Paul talks about not being saved by works, he was referring specifically to the works of the Law of Moses. Check the context of the passage in Romans, and see what you think.

What he was getting at is that man cannot be saved outside of God's plan to save him. Specifically, God has chosen to save men through the sacrificial death of His Son, Jesus Christ. Since the sacrifice has been made, those who were still trying to be declared righteous by the Law were disregarding that sacrifice, and trying to be saved by their own righteousness.

Now, if I declared that a man has to jump up and down three times reciting the national anthem in order to be saved, I would be trying to declare that one can be saved by works. Paul is talking about works that God requires, but rather ones God either no longer requires, or that man tries to do to save himself.

Hope this explains a little. God bless!

txchvs
Jul 14th 2007, 09:56 PM
Im Going to Be Baptized ASAP
Not Because I think it will save me, But Out of Obedience
Because I believe that I am Saved.

Jesus Told the Thief on the Cross next to Him that He would be in Paradise with Him.

Was that thief Babtized?


42 He said to Jesus, "Lord, remember me when you come into your Kingdom."

43 Jesus said to him, "Assuredly I tell you, today you will be with me in Paradise."

Your exactly right, the thief on the cross was mocking Jesus just like everyone else. After a while he changed his attitude (the literal meaning of repent) and asked Christ to remember him. There are different kinds of baptism in Scripture, the Flood is described as a baptism, the passing through the Red Sea was a kind of baptism, the ceremonial washings of the Levetical priesthood were a kind of baptism and of course there was the Baptism of John. Salvation is by faith and the baptism into Christ is mark by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Saying someone is not saved because they are not baptized is like saying someone is not dead because they are not buried.

Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. (Romans 6:3-6)

Baptism is not a salvation issue for me personally.

Grace and peace,
Mark

Baerly
Jul 15th 2007, 04:42 AM
Ok Matt,

Well what about this, "We are Saved By Faith and not Works" Right?

Wouldn't being Babtized Be a "Work"?

I do remember reading that, All one must do to be saved is,
Believe and Confess that Jesus is Lord

What about that?

If I may ask,do you think belief is a work? And must we believe to be saved?

My reason for asking this is that I find in my bible that belief is a work (John 6:29)

May I ask for the scripture which tells us [all we must do] is believe and confess Jesus is Lord to be saved?

in love Baerly

Baerly
Jul 15th 2007, 05:01 AM
Your exactly right, the thief on the cross was mocking Jesus just like everyone else. After a while he changed his attitude (the literal meaning of repent) and asked Christ to remember him. There are different kinds of baptism in Scripture, the Flood is described as a baptism, the passing through the Red Sea was a kind of baptism, the ceremonial washings of the Levetical priesthood were a kind of baptism and of course there was the Baptism of John. Salvation is by faith and the baptism into Christ is mark by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Saying someone is not saved because they are not baptized is like saying someone is not dead because they are not buried.

Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. (Romans 6:3-6)

Baptism is not a salvation issue for me personally.

Grace and peace,
Mark

If the bible said that baptism saves, would you have a problem with that (1Peter 3:21)? Surely we would not want to oppose the word of God.

And to nail it down the word of God ties water saving Noah and his family with the baptism that saves in the N.T.Law (1Peter 3:20).

Now this could not be refering to any other kind of baptism because the book of Ephesians says there is no only one baptism (Eph.4:5)? Surely you would agree it is water baptism. If not, how would one get around (Eph.4:5)? (1Peter 4:11)

in love Baerly

Brotherken
Jul 15th 2007, 05:01 AM
If I may ask,do you think belief is a work? And must we believe to be saved?

My reason for asking this is that I find in my bible that belief is a work (John 6:29)

May I ask for the scripture which tells us [all we must do] is believe and confess Jesus is Lord to be saved?

in love Baerly


Romans 10;9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

John 6:29 Jesus answered them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent."

That seems to be the work of God to me

No Sir, I think that Belief is a Gift from God

Brotherken
Jul 15th 2007, 05:13 AM
You Know, Im not a theologian...Im about a preschooler..

And Im Not Real sure If baptism saves a person or not...

Im gonna check into getting baptized cause I don't wanna take any chances with my salvation:D

But I truly Believe its all a Gift...and A Gift Means I don't have to earn it

Tanya~
Jul 15th 2007, 05:39 AM
Hi Brother Ken,


Romans 10;9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

This passage isn't talking about a one-time thing that people do to get saved. Paul is contrasting the "righteousness of faith" with the righteousness that is by the law. The Jews were trying to attain to the righteousness of God through keeping the law, but they were not able to attain to it because they were seeking righteousness by the works of the law. Those who are saved, seek the righteousness of God through faith, which looks like verse 10 -- confession of the Lord Jesus and belief that God has raised Him from the dead. We don't confess and believe then move on to the next thing, it is an ongoing confession and belief, just as keeping the law for the Jews was always an ongoing thing. They lived by the law. We live by faith. Baptism is a one-time thing that a person does when they first believe the gospel and want to receive Christ. Consider this from the book of Hebrews:

Heb 10:22-23
22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful.
Having a heart sprinkled from an evil conscience speaks of God cleansing our hearts. Having our bodies washed with pure water speaks of baptism. Compare this with what Peter wrote when he said that baptism is not the washing of dirt from the body, but "the answer of a good conscience toward God."

I think your desire for baptism reveals a conscience that has been sprinkled, so now you need to get your body washed with pure water in baptism, as your answer to God from a clean conscience. From there, you hold fast the confession of your hope in Christ without wavering, trusting in His faithfulness.

May the Lord bless you richly as you grow in Him, that you may bear much fruit! :)

Lars777
Jul 15th 2007, 06:23 AM
If the bible said that baptism saves, would you have a problem with that (1Peter 3:21)? Surely we would not want to oppose the word of God.

And to nail it down the word of God ties water saving Noah and his family with the baptism that saves in the N.T.Law (1Peter 3:20).

Now this could not be refering to any other kind of baptism because the book of Ephesians says there is no only one baptism (Eph.4:5)? Surely you would agree it is water baptism. If not, how would one get around (Eph.4:5)? (1Peter 4:11)

in love Baerly



Ah the one baptism, and here there is much apparent disunity. The Baptists say, "Ah, this is water baptism, baptism by immersion only." (The latest sign to appear in Baptist churches now says, "Put a tither in your tank!") The Presbyterians say, "No, you're all wet, sprinkling is the only way."

There are other groups that say babies ought to be baptized, while others say, "No, it is only for adults." There seems to be such disunity on this question of baptism.

But the amazing thing is, despite this difference over the symbol (and, after all, water baptism, in whatever form, is recognizably and demonstrably a symbol for something else), there is one baptism everywhere agreed upon by the church.

It is the baptism of the Spirit, the real baptism of which water baptism is always a symbol. That baptism is linked here to Jesus Christ because it is baptism into his body.

As we read in First Corinthians 12, "For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body" (1 Corinthians 12:13), the body of Christ. Or, as Romans 6 puts it, we were "baptized into his death," (Romans 6:3).

We have been made one with him, united with him in all the value of his death and his resurrection. Now that is the one baptism of the church and it is everywhere confessed.

Soj
Jul 15th 2007, 07:08 AM
We had three baptisms in our church today, these were three children who had previously received Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour, believing that He died on the cross, was buried, and rose again the third day for their salvation.

Some of their unsaved family members were there watching them being baptised, and as my pastor pulled each one down under the water he said out loud "buried with Him in the likeness of His death" and as he brought each one up out of the water he said "and risen with Him in the likeness of His resurrection". Then everyone watching sung the chorus to the old hymn "Christ Arose" and praised God.

These baptisms were a clear public testimony of what had already taken place privately in the hearts of those three Christians. They weren't being saved, they were proclaiming to the world that they had already been saved!

The ordinance of water baptism is something God expects every believer to follow, as it is a outward proclaimation of an inward faith in Christ that both glorifies God and strengthens the believer's testimony in the sight of the church and their friends and family.

threebigrocks
Jul 15th 2007, 03:54 PM
The ordinance of water baptism is something God expects every believer to follow, as it is a outward proclaimation of an inward faith in Christ that both glorifies God and strengthens the believer's testimony in the sight of the church and their friends and family.


It brings into the light what previously may have been lurking. It shows that "Hey, I'm real here, serious about my faith!" It opens up that person, making that statement in front of the congregation, to an expectation - to produce fruit, walk the walk and to accountability. It's an open profession of what is indeed in the heart.

Baerly
Jul 15th 2007, 09:23 PM
Romans 10;9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

John 6:29 Jesus answered them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent."

That seems to be the work of God to me

No Sir, I think that Belief is a Gift from God

We must make sure we do not start reading in the middle of a book (Romans) and miss out on what the Lord is trying to teach us through the written word of God (Eph.3:3,4) (Luke 1:4) (2Tim.3:14-17).

Let us look at the book of Romans for just a moment.Those in Rome obeyed (past tense) a form of doctrine in (Romans 6:3-6) and it made them free from sin (Romans 6:16-18).

We are taught what they (those in Rome) obeyed was a burial in water just like the Ethiopian eunich in (Acts 8:38). This all happened long before (Rom.10:9,10),so those who obeyed that form of doctrine in (Rom.6) were already Christians by the time we read (Rom.10:9,10). They were already free from sin according to (Rom.6:17,18).

This teaches us that by the time we read (Romans 10:9,10) those in Rome had already become Christians (Rom.6:3-6,16-18).

Then we learn that we rise to walk in newness of life [after] water baptism (2Cor.5:17).

Notice what (Rom.6:4) teaches us,we rise to walk in newness of life after a water burial. It is then that our (NEW) life begins according to (Rom.6:4) and (2Cor.5:17). We came in contact with the death of Jesus in this water burial.It is at this point the blood of Jesus cleanses us of our sins (Eph.1:7) (Acts 2:38 ; 8:13,38 ; 10:48 ; 22:16) (Col.2:12) (Titus 3:5).

If we add to the above the scripture which teaches us that baptism saves (1Peter 3:31),it is a powerful testimony from the word of God .

Oh,and your verse did not say [all] a person had to do is confess and believe (Rom.10:9,10).

Do you believe a person must repent to be saved? (Rom.10:9,10) says nothing about repentance.So this proves (Rom.10:9,10) is a part of the plan of salvation but not [all] of the plan is found in (Rom.10:9,10).


So if you believe God is the one doing the work (believing) in (John 6:29),man needs to do nothing to be saved. Is that your position?

in love Baerly

Baerly
Jul 15th 2007, 09:54 PM
Ah the one baptism, and here there is much apparent disunity. The Baptists say, "Ah, this is water baptism, baptism by immersion only." (The latest sign to appear in Baptist churches now says, "Put a tither in your tank!") The Presbyterians say, "No, you're all wet, sprinkling is the only way."

There are other groups that say babies ought to be baptized, while others say, "No, it is only for adults." There seems to be such disunity on this question of baptism.

But the amazing thing is, despite this difference over the symbol (and, after all, water baptism, in whatever form, is recognizably and demonstrably a symbol for something else), there is one baptism everywhere agreed upon by the church.

It is the baptism of the Spirit, the real baptism of which water baptism is always a symbol. That baptism is linked here to Jesus Christ because it is baptism into his body.

As we read in First Corinthians 12, "For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body" (1 Corinthians 12:13), the body of Christ. Or, as Romans 6 puts it, we were "baptized into his death," (Romans 6:3).

We have been made one with him, united with him in all the value of his death and his resurrection. Now that is the one baptism of the church and it is everywhere confessed.

Are you saying it is the baptism of the Holy Spirit which is for the New Testament today? And not water baptism found in (Rom.6:3-6) (Acts 2:38 ; 8:13,38 ; 10:48 ; 19:1-5 ; 22:16). The baptism of the Holy Spirit was only for the apostles alone (Luke 24:49) (Acts 1:5,8 ; 2:1-4).

The bible says there is only one baptism (Eph.4:5). It is used all through the New Testamment. That one baptism is water baptism in many instances for all believers.

It does no good for people today to agree to teach a particular doctrine if it opposes the word of God (1Peter 4:11) (1Cor.1:10) (Phil.3:16). (1Thess.4:1-3).

We must harmonize with the word of God (N.T Law).

God has used water as the line of demarkation long before New Testament times. All we need to do is look to Noah and the ark (Gen.7),or Israel coming out of the land of Egypt (Ex.14), or Naaman being cleansed of leprosy in (2Kings 5) to see that God uses water to separate the good and the evil or the saved and the lost.

The Lord is using water baptism as the line of demarkation between those who obey him and those who do not (Heb.5:8,9) (Acts 10:34,35) (John 9:31) (Acts 2:38 ; 22:16).

in love Baerly

Brotherken
Jul 15th 2007, 11:32 PM
:giveup:





Oh,and your verse did not say [all] a person had to do is confess and believe (Rom.10:9,10).

Your right baerly, I did notice that when I was posting it:blush:




Do you believe a person must repent to be saved?

Yeah, I think I do



So if you believe God is the one doing the work (believing) in (John 6:29),man needs to do nothing to be saved. Is that your position?



I dunno Baerly,

I know I can't do anything good, apart from Him

I can't save myself


AND I Know, that I don't know enough, to be discussing this stuff on here...:giveup:

But Thanks for your help with this:D

Baerly
Jul 16th 2007, 12:41 AM
:giveup:


Your right baerly, I did notice that when I was posting it:blush:




Yeah, I think I do





I dunno Baerly,

I know I can't do anything good, apart from Him

I can't save myself


AND I Know, that I don't know enough, to be discussing this stuff on here...:giveup:

But Thanks for your help with this:D

I highly respect anyone who is concerned about the scriptures and the souls of others. I also highly respect the honesty of some.

I think you would fall into both categories.

I hope we can study the scriptures and learn more together.

in love Baerly

txchvs
Jul 16th 2007, 04:44 AM
If the bible said that baptism saves, would you have a problem with that (1Peter 3:21)? Surely we would not want to oppose the word of God.

No of course I wouldn't have a problem with it, in fact let's take another look at it:

"For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him." (1Peter 3:18-21)

That is the just for the unjust put to death in the flesh but 'quickened by the spirit'. This is the new birth Peter is talking about which is the baptism into Christ. He starts this section with the cross and concludes it with the resurrection and ascension of Christ.

Think about it, Noah and eight souls in all were saved by 'dia' (literally through) water. Obviously the water that saved Noah and his family was not their salvation, their salvation was by hearing and heading God's warning and building that ark. They were saved by faith, surely you have no problem with that:

"And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead. To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word." (Acts 10:42-44)

This is the New Testament witness, hearing the Gospel you believe and are saved. You are marked with a seal, the Holy Spirit of promise and you are dead to sin in the flesh but washed, renewed and regenerated by the Holy Spirit. This is the clear teaching of the Scriptures, this is life and that more abundantly, this is the kingdom of God.


And to nail it down the word of God ties water saving Noah and his family with the baptism that saves in the N.T.Law (1Peter 3:20).

What it says is the water that is the figure of the baptism that now saves us. The baptism is the baptism into Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit. Remember the disciples of John in Ephesus? They were baptized in water unto repentance but had not received the Spirit.


Now this could not be refering to any other kind of baptism because the book of Ephesians says there is no only one baptism (Eph.4:5)? Surely you would agree it is water baptism. If not, how would one get around (Eph.4:5)? (1Peter 4:11)

in love Baerly

First of all Ephesians 1-3 is the doctrinal portion where the principles of salvation are laid out in no uncertain terms, the theme being 'in Christ'. Chapter 4 begins with the exhortation to make every effort to maintain the unity of the body of Christ and to walk in a manner worthy of your calling.

"And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins. Use hospitality one to another without grudging. As every man hath received the gift, even so minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God. If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. " (1Peter 4:8-11)

Peter here is talking about the gift of grace that is manifest along with fruit of the spirit which is 'charity' or the agape love of God. These passages are proclaiming the same message with grace and the new birth at the heart of the emphasis. It is by grace through faith through the Gospel of peace, having believed you were marked with a seal, the Holy Spirit of promise.

"In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. (Eph. 1:12,13)

Do you notice a recurrent theme here?

Grace and peace,
Mark

Tanya~
Jul 16th 2007, 05:39 AM
Hi Mark,



"In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. (Eph. 1:12,13)This passage isn't an argument against Christian baptism in water though. All of the Ephesians were baptized with water, and the first group of Ephesians whom Paul encountered, who had only had John's baptism and didn't know about the Holy Spirit, were baptized again. (Acts 19) Clearly, the situation with the Ephesians shows the Apostle's view of the importance of baptism. When he saw that they didn't have the Holy Spirit, the first thing he asked them about was their baptism. The Bible shows a very clear connection between the baptism that is done with water by believers leading a person to Christ, and the baptism that is done with the Holy Spirit by Christ.

txchvs
Jul 16th 2007, 10:30 PM
Hi Mark,

This passage isn't an argument against Christian baptism in water though.

I wouldn't dream of arguing against water baptism, that was not the point.


All of the Ephesians were baptized with water, and the first group of Ephesians whom Paul encountered, who had only had John's baptism and didn't know about the Holy Spirit, were baptized again. (Acts 19) Clearly, the situation with the Ephesians shows the Apostle's view of the importance of baptism. When he saw that they didn't have the Holy Spirit, the first thing he asked them about was their baptism. The Bible shows a very clear connection between the baptism that is done with water by believers leading a person to Christ, and the baptism that is done with the Holy Spirit by Christ.

The rite of baptism is performed in very close proximity to conversion in the New Testament, that is very true. The disciples of John at Ephesus were baptized again in the name of Christ because it is the name of Christ by which we are saved. The mark of salvation is the coming of the Holy Spirit and upon hearing the Gospel the Gentiles believed and received the Holy Spirit. Afterwards they were baptized but they we already saved before they were baptized. I know that because they were marked with the Holy Spirit of Promise.

"To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word." (Acts 10:43-44)

Grace and peace,
Mark

Baerly
Jul 17th 2007, 02:11 AM
No of course I wouldn't have a problem with it, in fact let's take another look at it:



Think about it, Noah and eight souls in all were saved by 'dia' (literally through) water. Obviously the water that saved Noah and his family was not their salvation, their salvation was by hearing and heading God's warning and building that ark. They were saved by faith, surely you have no problem with that:

"And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead. To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word." (Acts 10:42-44)

This is the New Testament witness, hearing the Gospel you believe and are saved. You are marked with a seal, the Holy Spirit of promise and you are dead to sin in the flesh but washed, renewed and regenerated by the Holy Spirit. This is the clear teaching of the Scriptures, this is life and that more abundantly, this is the kingdom of God.
[/b]


What it says is the water that is the figure of the baptism that now saves us. The baptism is the baptism into Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit. Remember the disciples of John in Ephesus? They were baptized in water unto repentance but had not received the Spirit.
[/b]



Grace and peace,
Mark


Baerly Writting-- Thank you for responding.

It seems clear enough to me that that which saved Noah and his family [water] is being refered to in (1Peter 3:21). [Water baptism] is not just a washing away of dirt. No doubt about it, the scripture is refering to water baptism,water is that which washes away dirt.

While you say "Obviously the water that saved Noah and his family was [not] their salvation...

I would ask you to read what the word of God said about this. Notice - wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water (1Peter 3:20). Who am I to believe you or the Lord? You see, the Lord did not count them saved till the water rose around them.They (Noah and his family) were delivered from the world of sin,by the very water which killed the disobedient. Remember (Ex.14) where we learn about how the water saved the Israelites but killed the Egyptians? Once again the Lord used water as the line of demarkation between the lost and the saved [physically and spiritually]. So I do have a problem with your position. Sorry

You say - " hearing the Gospel you believe and are saved".

I would point you to (Mark 16:15,16) which opposes what your teaching. Notice -Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved. Please help me understand If, I am saved at the point of believing,why should I be baptized to be saved?Also why is the word [and] in this verse?

The apostle Paul believed and confessed on the road to Damascus,but instead of blessing Paul the Lord struck him blind (Acts 9:3-9). Is this how the Lord blesses his people when they obey him? The Lord told Paul He wanted him to do something else, He wanted Paul to go to a preacher who would tell him how to wash his sins away (Acts 22:16).

Paul was obedient to the words of the gospel preached to him and 1.Arose, 2. Was baptized , 3.Washed away his sins, 4. Calling on the name of the Lord. Paul was not saved by believing or confessing alone. We are no better than the apostle Paul. If we are going to be saved we will have to do what he did,be obedient to the Lord (Heb.5:8,9) (John 9:31) (Mt.7:21) (1Peter 3:12).

Also those on the day of Pentecost were told to repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of sins and they would receive the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38).They already believed, why wasn't there sins forgiven before repenting and being baptized? It seems your theory does not harmonize with the bible.This concerns me greatly.

Notice what (Acts 5:32) teaches us, Only those who obey the Lord will receive the Holy Spirit (Acts 5:32).

Thanks for teaching me about the book of Ephesians,and 1Peter, but did you notice that the bible says there is now [one baptism]. I am going to go out on a limb and say the church you attend practices at least two baptism and maybe more. How can that be if we are all guided by the same word of the Lord?

(Phil.3:16) teaches us to walk by the same rule. If we are going to please our Lord we best walk in acccordance to his N.T.Law (1Thess.4:1-3).

Did you notice something in the above scriptures?

in love Baerly

CFJ
Jul 17th 2007, 10:07 AM
From what I read in the scriptures, my understanding is that we need to be baptized to be in Christ. Yes, I do believe this is what God wants us to do to receive and be marked with the Holy Spirit.



Hi Matt,

To be IN Christ, how do one end-up, being IN Christ... through water or through the Holy Ghost?


For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
(1Co 12:13)

I believe it is for this very reason, 1 Co 12:13, that Paul says,


For Christ sent me not to baptize (with water), but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
(1Co 1:17)

Baerly
Jul 17th 2007, 06:23 PM
Many people have been taught we're are saved by one thing alone. Some claim it is faith alone,some claim it is by works alone,some claim it is having the Holy Spirit alone,some claim it is by grace alone,or by the blood of Jesus alone. But please notice the following simple lesson.

http://www.gospelpreceptor.com/OlerG002.htm (http://www.gospelpreceptor.com/OlerG002.htm)

in love Baerly

Sold Out
Jul 17th 2007, 06:47 PM
Ah the one baptism, and here there is much apparent disunity. The Baptists say, "Ah, this is water baptism, baptism by immersion only." (The latest sign to appear in Baptist churches now says, "Put a tither in your tank!") The Presbyterians say, "No, you're all wet, sprinkling is the only way."

There are other groups that say babies ought to be baptized, while others say, "No, it is only for adults." There seems to be such disunity on this question of baptism.

But the amazing thing is, despite this difference over the symbol (and, after all, water baptism, in whatever form, is recognizably and demonstrably a symbol for something else), there is one baptism everywhere agreed upon by the church.

It is the baptism of the Spirit, the real baptism of which water baptism is always a symbol. That baptism is linked here to Jesus Christ because it is baptism into his body.

As we read in First Corinthians 12, "For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body" (1 Corinthians 12:13), the body of Christ. Or, as Romans 6 puts it, we were "baptized into his death," (Romans 6:3).

We have been made one with him, united with him in all the value of his death and his resurrection. Now that is the one baptism of the church and it is everywhere confessed.

AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

CFJ
Jul 17th 2007, 07:52 PM
Many people have been taught we're are saved by one thing alone. Some claim it is faith alone,some claim it is by works alone,some claim it is having the Holy Spirit alone,some claim it is by grace alone,or by the blood of Jesus alone. But please notice the following simple lesson.

http://www.gospelpreceptor.com/OlerG002.htm (http://www.gospelpreceptor.com/OlerG002.htm)

in love Baerly

Baerly,

With regards to the link you gave, I do believe that 1Pet 3:20-21 is not water baptism, but baptism into the body of Christ... a baptism done by the Holy Ghost when you are born again. It is not the same as baptism with the Holy Spirit. I truly believe that the following passages, also refers to baptism into the body of Christ... and not water baptism.


By one Spirit we were all baptized into one body. Whether we are Jewish or Greek, slave or free, God gave all of us one Spirit to drink.
(1Co 12:13)

Don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? When we were baptized into his death, we were placed into the tomb with him. As Christ was brought back from death to life by the glorious power of the Father, so we, too, should live a new kind of life.
(Rom 6:3-4)

For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
(Gal 3:27)

In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
(Col 2:11-13)

They are like those who disobeyed long ago in the days of Noah when God waited patiently while Noah built the ship. In this ship a few people-eight in all-were saved by water. Baptism, which is like that water, now saves you. Baptism doesn't save by removing dirt from the body. Rather, baptism is a request to God for a clear conscience. It saves you through Jesus Christ, who came back from death to life.
(1Pe 3:20-21)

In 1Peter 3:20-21, I see it that we need to be in Christ, as Noah was in the ark, to be saved. When you are baptized into the body of Christ, it is the moment you accept Christ Jesus, the moment you kneel at the cross, the moment your heart is circumcised, the moment you are born again. For me personally, that is the only reason why this baptism can save us.

threebigrocks
Jul 18th 2007, 01:00 AM
How can we make sense of some very good points of view that many have put forth here, and they all give us reasoning behind the purpose of baptism.

How about the effects more specifically? What are the effects in ones life of baptism, whether through water in the name of the Father, Son and Spirit or that which brings us into the church through the Spirit?

Seems we can agree that those are indeed two different, yet important, pieces of understand the early stages of faith. ;)

Baerly
Jul 18th 2007, 01:47 AM
Baerly,

With regards to the link you gave, I do believe that 1Pet 3:20-21 is not water baptism, but baptism into the body of Christ... a baptism done by the Holy Ghost when you are born again. It is not the same as baptism with the Holy Spirit. I truly believe that the following passages, also refers to baptism into the body of Christ... and not water baptism.


By one Spirit we were all baptized into one body. Whether we are Jewish or Greek, slave or free, God gave all of us one Spirit to drink.
(1Co 12:13)

Don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? When we were baptized into his death, we were placed into the tomb with him. As Christ was brought back from death to life by the glorious power of the Father, so we, too, should live a new kind of life.
(Rom 6:3-4)

For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
(Gal 3:27)

In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
(Col 2:11-13)

They are like those who disobeyed long ago in the days of Noah when God waited patiently while Noah built the ship. In this ship a few people-eight in all-were saved by water. Baptism, which is like that water, now saves you. Baptism doesn't save by removing dirt from the body. Rather, baptism is a request to God for a clear conscience. It saves you through Jesus Christ, who came back from death to life.
(1Pe 3:20-21)


In 1Peter 3:20-21, I see it that we need to be in Christ, as Noah was in the ark, to be saved. When you are baptized into the body of Christ, it is the moment you accept Christ Jesus, the moment you kneel at the cross, the moment your heart is circumcised, the moment you are born again. For me personally, that is the only reason why this baptism can save us.


Baerly Writting - I would agree with you wholeheartedly [if] the word of God agreed with you,but it does not. Let me try to explain,we are to live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God. This means what ever we teach,it must harmonize with all the words of God. That is very important and there are ways of testing people to see if they are teaching truth or error (1John 4:1-6),we just need to ask a few questions.

My question to you is,why wasn't the apostle Pauls sins washed away when he believed and confessed on the road to Damascus? (Acts 9:3-9)

Instead the Lord told Paul to go see a preacher (Ananias) and he shall tell you what you MUST do (Acts 9:6). Paul was asking the same question as those on the day of Pentecost was asking (Acts 2:37). They wanted to know what they needed to do about the sin of killing Jesus. Here paul was asking what he needed to do about his sin of persecuting the Lord and his church (Acts 9:4,5).

The Lord did not tell Paul what to do because the Lord is a Heavenly vessel. The scriptures declare,we have this treasure (the gospel) in earthly vessels (2Cor.4:7).

Man is meant to preach to man according to (2Tim.2;2). A heavenly being [never] tells an earthly being how to be saved directly in the N.T times. The Lord always uses the medium of the word (New Testament) to teach man how to be saved today (2Tim.3:14-17) (Rom.1:16) (John 8:31,32). Man is drawn and taught by the word of God (John 6:44,45).

If what your teaching above is truth,then it should harmonize with the word of God in the account of the apostle Pauls conversion. Washing away of sins are not mentioned in the conversion of Paul until after water baptism,some three days after meeting Christ (Acts 22:16). The Ethiopian eunich rejoiced after being baptized in water because he realized his sins were forgiven at the point of water baptism (Acts 8:39). The Lord added to the church those that had been baptized in water for the forgiveness of their sins (Acts 2:38-47).

Paul being struck blind by the Lord was a metaphor for his sinful condition. This tells us that Paul was not in good standing with God till he had his sins forgiven. The Lord can have no part with sinful man until his sins are forgiven (Isa.59:1,2).

Paul walked around for three days blind and with a penitent attitude,and that was after he believed and confessed Christ. Surely the Lord would not strike a person blind as a way of blessing him for his obedience.

One other thing is that the Ethiopian eunich was taught about Jesus (Acts 8:35). Notice what he says in the very next verse,"here is water,what doth hinder me to be baptiized? The eunich realized that the baptism Philip spoke of was actually water baptism. Not only that but he seen an urgent need to be baptized in water. It is very important to notice the eunich did not rejoice till after water baptism (Acts 8:39).

Just a few things to think about.

in love Baerly

CFJ
Jul 19th 2007, 06:56 AM
Baerly,

I'm not against baptism with water in any way, I'm against the notion of replacing baptism into the body of Christ with water. All those passages in my previous post, refers to a baptism that raise one from the dead. You can decide yourself whether this is baptism in water or baptism into the body of Christ. I've seen way too many people that have been baptized in water (believers baptism), without bearing fruit for the Lord. Both infant baptism and believers baptism from my own experience, means nothing if you are not baptized into the body of Christ!

This is about Christ, not water or rituals. Abraham could not be justified with rituals... How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
(Rom 4:10-11)

Today, we receive the exact same seal (righteousness of faith), before being even baptized into water...


Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
(2Co 1:22)

In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
(Eph 1:13)

If this is true for circumcision, why should it be diffirent for baptism as shown in the above passages? Both are signs for the covenant, in fact for the same covenant. Both is only a sign of the true seal, which is before or without the ritual. There is enough evidence that being baptized in water is not essential for salvation. When Paul in 1Cor 1:17 says, "For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect."... What happened on the cross with the murderer being saved there, is not a coincidence... there is a lot more to read in baptism as a means for salvation, when looking at that man's destiny and how it was done. Was the murderer sealed in righteousness of faith or in baptism with water?

Baerly
Jul 19th 2007, 08:46 PM
Baerly,

I'm not against baptism with water in any way, I'm against the notion of replacing baptism into the body of Christ with water. All those passages in my previous post, refers to a baptism that raise one from the dead. You can decide yourself whether this is baptism in water or baptism into the body of Christ. I've seen way too many people that have been baptized in water (believers baptism), without bearing fruit for the Lord. Both infant baptism and believers baptism from my own experience, means nothing if you are not baptized into the body of Christ!

This is about Christ, not water or rituals. Abraham could not be justified with rituals... How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
(Rom 4:10-11)

Today, we receive the exact same seal (righteousness of faith), before being even baptized into water...


Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
(2Co 1:22)
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
(Eph 1:13)If this is true for circumcision, why should it be diffirent for baptism as shown in the above passages? Both are signs for the covenant, in fact for the same covenant. Both is only a sign of the true seal, which is before or without the ritual. There is enough evidence that being baptized in water is not essential for salvation. When Paul in 1Cor 1:17 says, "For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect."... What happened on the cross with the murderer being saved there, is not a coincidence... there is a lot more to read in baptism as a means for salvation, when looking at that man's destiny and how it was done. Was the murderer sealed in righteousness of faith or in baptism with water?

Hello my friend, You are against water baptism for the remission of sins. Please don't say "I'm not against baptism with water in any way" When what your teaching opposes what you say.

I am trying to get people to understand that water baptism [is the door into the body] (John 10:1,2) (Gal.3:27) (1Peter 3:21).

I realize many have been taught a person is saved at one point spiritually (by faith only or by grace only) and then at another point in time. I hope I can use the word of God to show people that that is not the case.That is not found in the word of God nowhere. It has been said and taught so long it has become the norm to many.

If we took the first gospel sermon preached on the day of Pentecost,those who responded to the heart pricked preaching of Peter said What shall we do (Acts 2:36-47)? Peter did not tell them just to just to believe,they already believed. Peter [did not] tell them to believe and repent and you shall be saved, Peter knew they already believed. Peter also knew the Lord commanded them to do more to be saved (Acts 2:40).

The people (Jews) accepted the message that they murdered Jesus on the cross (Acts 2:36). ,And asked what shall we do? They were speaking about there sin of killing Jesus. At this point they believed and confessed their sins.Were they saved at this point? If so, their sins should have been forgiven,but notice what Peater tells the Jews who asked the question- What shall we do? (Acts 2:36). Peter did not tell them they were saved and did not have to do anything else to have their sins forgiven.

Instead Peter tells them to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins.. (Acts 2:38). They were encouraged to save themselves in (Acts 2:40). Why would Peter tell them to repent and be baptized to have their sins remitted,if in fact their sins were remitted already by believing and confessing? The fact is their sins were still upon them and Peter was still in the process of explaining to the people how to have their sins remitted (Acts 2:38). The people still had to repent and be baptized to have their sins remitted according to Peter [ not me].

Some there that day gladly responded to the message and received it as the word of God(1Thess.2:13) (Acts 2:41). Those that were baptized in water were added to the church by the Lord (Acts 2:47).

God is the only one who can add a person to the church.There is nothing in the bible about voting people into the church. Man does not have that right. It seems to be a prideful act to me to think any man can say if any particular person is fit to be in the church or not. Let God be the Judge of that.

Now, How do we know that the baptism on the day of Pentecost was actually water baptism? Let us let the bible define baptism. In (Acts 8:38,39) The Ethiopian eunich and Philip went down into the water and come up out of the water. That is the bible definition of the baptism that is administered today.

How do I know That it is only water baptism? By reading (Eph.4:5). which says there are as many baptisms as there are Lords. There is one Lord therefore today there must only be one kind of baprtism for people today. Most every church that I know about agrees to submit to [B]water baptism,and rightly so. When they go beyond that and say there is another baptism also,they are contradicting the word of God. At that point, they are not walking in the light of the Lord (Eph.5:8) (Isa.8:20).

Look at how God used water in (Ex.14) (2Kings 5). That is parellel to how God is using water in the N.T.

Water Baptism saves (1Peter 3:21).

You say "This is about Christ, not water or rituals."

My friend, being a Christian is about doing the commandments of the Lord as best we can(1Cor.14:37) (John 15:10,14) (1John 2:3-6 ; 5:2,3). And when the Lord commands baptism we best do it,the way He said,and for the reason He said.. - It is about following the word of God (John 12:48). Remember when Moses struck the rock instead of speaking to it (Num. 20). Or how about Saul in (1Sam.15:3-27). Or Uzzah in (2Sam.6) (Rom.15:4) (1Cor.10:11).

Please don't tell me it is not about doing the commandments of the Lord [or rituals] as you call them. We are told to obey the Lords commands (Acts 2:42 ; 5:32 ; 10:34,35) (Rom.1:5 ; 2:8,11 ; 11:22 ; 14:12 ; 16:26 ) (1Cor.14:37) (2Cor.5:10)(Heb.5:8,9) (Rev. 14:13).

Next you talk about Abraham. Abraham was counted righteous [before circumcision] because he obey the lord a long time [before] the (O.T Law) was delivered at Mt.Sinai. Please check it out.

Abraham was counted righteous just in the same maner Noah was counted righteous. How was Noah counted righteous? Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord (Gen.6:8). But we're told how Noah gained that grace in (Gen. 6:22). Thus did Noah according to all the Lord commanded,so did he (Gen.6:22) (Rom.15:4) (1Cor.10:11).

in love Baerly

Baerly
Jul 19th 2007, 10:50 PM
This is my reply to CFJ

CFJ Writes

-In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
(Eph 1:13)
If this is true for circumcision, why should it be diffirent for baptism as shown in the above passages? Both are signs for the covenant, in fact for the same covenant. Both is only a sign of the true seal, which is before or without the ritual. There is enough evidence that being baptized in water is not essential for salvation. When Paul in 1Cor 1:17 says, "For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect."... What happened on the cross with the murderer being saved there, is not a coincidence... there is a lot more to read in baptism as a means for salvation, when looking at that man's destiny and how it was done. Was the murderer sealed in righteousness of faith or in baptism with water?
__________________


Baerly writes - At this point I want to thank you for using bible scriptures.Way to many people state there opinion and think it is on the same plane as the word of God. I hope they learn soon it is not, nor will it never will be.

We must understand the the word of God uses something called a synechdoche. This means that we might use a word to represent the whole of something. I might say, I am glad to see your [face}. What I actually mean is, that I am glad to see your whole body,not just your face alone. I might say I like your wheels,but I am actually telling youI really like your whole car,not just the wheels on your car Alone.

This lesson is very important when studying the word of God. It is nothing new. The bible uses the word faith in (Jude 3) to mean the complete system of faith.

So, Somtimes when the bible says the word , it is refering to the whole complete plan of salvation.

That complete plan of salvation would be Hearing the gospel (John 8:24),responding to the gospel with Belief (Rom.10:14,17),responding to the gospel with Repenting (luke 13:3), responding to the gospel with confessing (Rom.10:9),responding to the gospel by being baptized in water for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38 ; 8:38 ; 22:16) (2Thess.2:14),and responding to the gospel call by living according to the N.T Will of God (Titus 2:12),till we die (Rev.2:10).

Next you go to (1Cor.1:17) to try and prove baptism is not essential to salvation. May I please point out that many have butchered this verse.It does not say Christ sent me not to preach baptism . It says Christ sent me not to do the baptizing. Others could do the actual baptizing in water while Paul kept on preaching to others.

Notice please (1Cor.1;14),here Paul says He had already baptized Crispus and Gaius. Did the Holy Spirit lead Paul in error?

The Lord and Paul recognized that there was a problem with Paul baptizing people. They were begining to gather in groups according to who baptized them. This was wrong. It also was the begining of denominationalism. (1Cor,.1) teaches us it is wrong.

Then you go to the thief on the cross,which lived under the O.T.. You might as well ask Abraham to be baptized in water,it would be about the same.

They both lived and died under the O.T.Law

Water baptism for the forgiveness of sins was not commanded till the New Testament times (Mt 28:19) (Acts 10:48) (Mark 16:16) (Acts 2:38). Jesus could forgive anyone he wished while he was on earth,but after his death his will went into affect (Heb.9:15-17).

The N.T Law did not affect the thief on the cross because he lived and died under the O.T Law.

[B]We live under the New Testament Law and everyone who has lived on this side of the death, burial and ress. of Christ has also lived under the N.T Law.

It is called the last days in (Acts 2:17).

Please notice (2Cor.3) (Eph.2:13-16) (Col.2:14-16) (Heb.8:6-13) (Jer.31:31-34) (Isa 2:2-5) (Dan.2:44) (Joel 2:28)

in love Baerly

CFJ
Jul 22nd 2007, 01:13 PM
Baerly,

I would love to respond in more detail later, but for now just the following. We both claim having a relationship with the Lord (important to say that I do agree that you serve the same Lord, than myself), in baptism there is much to learn, but I cannot agree with you, unfortunately this is not what the Lord have shown me. Would you say that we serve diffirent Lords then?

In Hebrews, we read about the doctrine of baptisms, maybe this is a perspective some ignore. Give that some thought... Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
(Heb 6:2)

threebigrocks
Jul 22nd 2007, 06:24 PM
Alrighty, this is headed to Bible Chat. For the record, here in A&E we discuss how to take Christianity to others and how to defend our faith with questions or rebuke against us.

To discuss doctrine as this is going, BC is the place.

Tanya~
Jul 22nd 2007, 11:34 PM
Hi CFJ,



In Hebrews, we read about the doctrine of baptisms, maybe this is a perspective some ignore. Give that some thought... Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
(Heb 6:2)

I found recently that the word used in Hebrews isn't the same as that used in reference to Christian baptism.

Hebrews is talking about washings, Jewish ritual ablutions, that sort of thing. It is found only in Mark 7:4,8; and in Heb 6:2,10.

The other words that are translated in relation to baptism refer to submersion, immersion, i.e., being fully covered or overwhelmed (as with water or with the Holy Spirit).

I think there are some Greek tools available online you could use to verify this. :)

CFJ
Jul 23rd 2007, 09:35 AM
Hi CFJ,



I found recently that the word used in Hebrews isn't the same as that used in reference to Christian baptism.

Hebrews is talking about washings, Jewish ritual ablutions, that sort of thing. It is found only in Mark 7:4,8; and in Heb 6:2,10.

The other words that are translated in relation to baptism refer to submersion, immersion, i.e., being fully covered or overwhelmed (as with water or with the Holy Spirit).

I think there are some Greek tools available online you could use to verify this. :)

Thanks Tanya. The question is, is context part of the interpretation or is the word in Greek for example, the only means to determine the meaning of a specific Greek word. I will use this passage to illustrate my question...


I indeed baptize (baptizo, Strongs 907) you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize (baptizo, Strongs 907) you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
(Mat 3:11)
The word baptize in Matthew 3:11, is exactly the same Greek word used for baptism with water and baptism with the Holy Ghost and also baptism with fire. There are 3 diffirent baptisms in that passage, are they all related to water only, just because they are same word in Greek? Should'nt one look at context, when trying to determine what the word really means?

When looking at Hebrews 6:2, the word baptisms, is used with the following in mind, as I see it. We should try and move on in our walk with God. We cannot focus on the first principles of becoming a Christian only. They are the doctrine of baptisms, the laying on of hands etc.


Because of this, having left the discourse of the beginning of Christ, let us be borne on to full growth, not laying down again a foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, of baptisms, of doctrine, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of dead ones, and of eternal judgment.
(Heb 6:1-2)

Baerly
Jul 23rd 2007, 10:29 AM
Baerly,

I would love to respond in more detail later, but for now just the following. We both claim having a relationship with the Lord (important to say that I do agree that you serve the same Lord, than myself), in baptism there is much to learn, but I cannot agree with you, unfortunately this is not what the Lord have shown me. Would you say that we serve diffirent Lords then?

In Hebrews, we read about the doctrine of baptisms, maybe this is a perspective some ignore. Give that some thought... Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
(Heb 6:2)

Hello CFJ, I think that our efforts could be described and found within the scriptures we read about in (Mt.7:16-27).

I do not wish for you to agree with me on anything.I would hope you would line up with the word of God,in doing that,we would be one (John 17:20,21).

I think you would agree (Heb.6:2) is talking of leaving things which were once done and moving on to others. And leaving those things would mean to stop practicing them and teaching people to observe them. This would have been during the first century.This would include baptisms (plural).

The word of God is very clear on how many baptisms there are today (Eph,4:5). There is only one baptism.

How many baptisms does the church teach where you attend?

On another note,Do you know someone who claims to raise the dead?

in love Baerly

Baerly
Jul 23rd 2007, 10:39 AM
Hi CFJ,



I found recently that the word used in Hebrews isn't the same as that used in reference to Christian baptism.

Hebrews is talking about washings, Jewish ritual ablutions, that sort of thing. It is found only in Mark 7:4,8; and in Heb 6:2,10.

The other words that are translated in relation to baptism refer to submersion, immersion, i.e., being fully covered or overwhelmed (as with water or with the Holy Spirit).

I think there are some Greek tools available online you could use to verify this. :)

Your pretty sharp. Thanks you just gave me some more notes for my bible.

in love Baerly

CFJ
Jul 23rd 2007, 10:56 AM
Hello CFJ, I think that our efforts could be described and found within the scriptures we read about in (Mt.7:16-27).

I do not wish for you to agree with me on anything.I would hope you would line up with the word of God,in doing that,we would be one (John 17:20,21).

I think you would agree (Heb.6:2) is talking of leaving things which were once done and moving on to others. And leaving those things would mean to stop practicing them and teaching people to observe them. This would have been during the first century.This would include baptisms (plural).

The word of God is very clear on how many baptisms there are today (Eph,4:5). There is only one baptism.

How many baptisms does the church teach where you attend?

On another note,Do you know someone who claims to raise the dead?

in love Baerly

Baerly,

I believe there is only one baptism that saves, one that will be applicable to every single person ever saved. There can only be one, baptism into the body of Christ. The murderer on the cross, is the one example we cannot negate...

Also, look at Zacchaeus, what did Jesus told him, did He tell him he must first be baptized before he is saved, or was he already baptized?


And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.
(Luk 19:9)

Baerly
Jul 23rd 2007, 11:13 AM
Baerly,

I believe there is only one baptism that saves, one that will be applicable to every single person ever saved. There can only be one, baptism into the body of Christ. The murderer on the cross, is the one example we cannot negate...

Also, look at Zacchaeus, what did Jesus told him, did he tell him he must first be baptized before he is saved?



And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.


(Luk 19:9)

1. And which baptism is it that saves and puts a person into the body?


2. Anyone who lived before the death of Jesus upon the cross was not commanded to be baptized for the remission of sins.That would include the Thief on the cross and Zachaeus. You may as well be asking for Abraham to be baptized. They all lived under the O.T Law.


I posted a lesson about that subject a few post ago. I hope to be able to discuss this with you sometime.

in love Baerly

Tanya~
Jul 23rd 2007, 04:59 PM
Hi CFJ,


The question is, is context part of the interpretation or is the word in Greek for example, the only means to determine the meaning of a specific Greek word. I will use this passage to illustrate my question...


I indeed baptize (baptizo, Strongs 907) you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize (baptizo, Strongs 907) you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
(Mat 3:11)
The word baptize in Matthew 3:11, is exactly the same Greek word used for baptism with water and baptism with the Holy Ghost and also baptism with fire. There are 3 diffirent baptisms in that passage, are they all related to water only, just because they are same word in Greek? Should'nt one look at context, when trying to determine what the word really means?

Yes, one should consider context. This verse in each case is talking about an immersion, whether in water, in the Holy Spirit, or in fire. And it is talking about two different persons who do the baptizing: John baptized with water, Jesus baptizes with the Holy Spirit and with fire.


When looking at Hebrews 6:2, the word baptisms, is used with the following in mind, as I see it. We should try and move on in our walk with God. We cannot focus on the first principles of becoming a Christian only.

Yes, and we will move on to perfection if God permits. :) However, if one doesn't even have these elementary principles correct, how can they move on to perfection? Hebrews is written to Jews of the 1st Century who had an understanding of the various washings that were necessary for ritual purification. This included immersions (cf. the Mikvah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikvah)). The Jews transitioned smoothly from the Jewish ritual washings and the immersion of proselytes, to John's baptism, and finally to the baptism into Christian discipleship as commanded by Jesus. These were all immersions in water. Jesus is the one who baptizes with the Holy Spirit. To move on to perfection doesn't mean we are now to dispense with the whole idea of water baptism, but rather, that we are to continue to grow after having understanding of these basic principles. The fact that the church keeps arguing about it might indicate that we haven't gotten past it yet and aren't able to move on to perfection.

graffitiwarrior
Jul 25th 2007, 02:11 PM
I don't know if this post is in the right place. I've got this idea in my mind that a baptism should be carried out in flowing or running water. Where I got this idea I know not, could anyone enlighten me on this.

God Bless,
Graffiti

Theophilus
Jul 25th 2007, 03:15 PM
...

2. Anyone who lived before the death of Jesus upon the cross was not commanded to be baptized for the remission of sins.That would include the Thief on the cross and Zachaeus. You may as well be asking for Abraham to be baptized. They all lived under the O.T Law.

...

From John chapter 19, verses 30-34:


30When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

Jesus was dead.

31The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.

The legs were broken so that they could no longer support themselves, hastening their death.

32Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him.

The two thieves were still alive...but no doubt died soon after their legs were broken.

33But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs:

Again, Jesus was not alive.

34But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.

Thus, the thief on the cross was alive after Christ's death...just for your consideration.:)

John146
Jul 25th 2007, 07:56 PM
1. And which baptism is it that saves and puts a person into the body?

The baptism of the Holy Spirit, as 1 Corinthians 12:13 makes abundantly clear.



2. Anyone who lived before the death of Jesus upon the cross was not commanded to be baptized for the remission of sins.That would include the Thief on the cross and Zachaeus. You may as well be asking for Abraham to be baptized. They all lived under the O.T Law.

That is incorrect. John's baptism was already being practiced before Christ's death on the cross and it was for the remission of sins as the following verse makes clear:

John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. - Mark 1:4

Brotherken
Jul 25th 2007, 11:12 PM
That is incorrect. John's baptism was already being practiced before Christ's death on the cross and it was for the remission of sins as the following verse makes clear:

John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. - Mark 1:4


Very good point!

Baerly
Jul 26th 2007, 01:28 AM
From John chapter 19, verses 30-34:


30When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

Jesus was dead.

31The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.

The legs were broken so that they could no longer support themselves, hastening their death.

32Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him.

The two thieves were still alive...but no doubt died soon after their legs were broken.

33But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs:

Again, Jesus was not alive.

34But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.

Thus, the thief on the cross was alive after Christ's death...just for your consideration.:)

While appreciate your posting scripture (many do not) your assuming the thief was still alive after Jesus died.

The bible says no such thing anywhere. I challenge you to find it. Show me where the bible says the thief lived longer than Jesus. The breaking of the legs were just a cautionary measure.

Baerly

Tanya~
Jul 26th 2007, 01:31 AM
Regardless of when the thief on the cross died, Christian baptism wasn't instituted by Jesus until after His resurrection.

Baerly
Jul 26th 2007, 01:40 AM
The baptism of the Holy Spirit, as 1 Corinthians 12:13 makes abundantly clear.



That is incorrect. John's baptism was already being practiced before Christ's death on the cross and it was for the remission of sins as the following verse makes clear:

John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. - Mark 1:4

Hello, So you teach there are two baptisms for today instead of one like (Eph.4;5) teaches.

I mispoke ealier, I apologize, I meant to say,

All people (Jew / Gentile) were not commanded to be baptized for the remission of sins to receive the Holy Spirit before Jesus died on the cross. Johns baptism was only for the Jews. (Acts 13:46) bears this out.

Baerly

CFJ
Jul 26th 2007, 10:02 AM
While appreciate your posting scripture (many do not) your assuming the thief was still alive after Jesus died.

The bible says no such thing anywhere. I challenge you to find it. Show me where the bible says the thief lived longer than Jesus. The breaking of the legs were just a cautionary measure.

Baerly

Baerly,

Have Christ died for the murderer on the cross too?

My guess is that remission of sins is worthless without the true meaning of the cross. Not also the meaning of the cross itself, but what happened there as an example for all to see and remember. One was on His left, the other on His right... think about it...

Theophilus
Jul 26th 2007, 12:49 PM
While appreciate your posting scripture (many do not) your assuming the thief was still alive after Jesus died.

The bible says no such thing anywhere. I challenge you to find it. Show me where the bible says the thief lived longer than Jesus. The breaking of the legs were just a cautionary measure.

Baerly
I thought I just did...and that's the only place scripturally you'll find the order of events stated as clearly. So, if you don't buy that scripture, I've got nothing else.

As for assumption, you're making one, too...that Christ died first. The context of this scripture would indicate otherwise. They didn't break Jesus' legs because He was already dead...the inference is that they broke the thieves' leg because they were still alive, and therefore needed breaking to hasten their deaths.

Let's look at that scripture again:


30When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

31The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.

The Jews were in a hurry to get the bodies down. So, they asked Pilate if they could hurry things along. If the three men were dead, they could move on to preparation for the sabbath.

So, to speed things up, they started breaking legs...Why break the legs of a dead man? No need...and with Jesus, they didn't, because He was already dead. The thieves, however, did have their legs broken...so a logical progression of thought would indicate that both thieves died after Jesus did.

32Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him.
33But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs:

I posted this not to be confrontational, but because "iron sharpens iron"...and if you are going to support your stance, you need to deal with this scripture. If I thought of this scripture, someone else will, too...and saying I'm making an assumption is not much of a defense of your position.

As an aside, I did some research on crucifixion, and all of the articles that spoke about breaking legs said it was to hasten death...not once was it mentioned as a precautionary measure. Besides, one soldier showed a measure they could take to insure someone crucified was dead...they could stick a spear in your side a lot quicker than break your legs.

You don't need to challenge me to find any other scripture...you need to explain why they didn't break Jesus' legs, and did break the thieves' legs. Saying it was a "precautionary" message seems a little shaky to me. :)

CFJ
Jul 26th 2007, 01:17 PM
Theophilus,

One have to agree with you here, the most obvious outcome in that passage, is that Jesus died before the other two. The cross is at the end of it all, the event that gives meaning to Christianity or better stated, becoming part of the Israel of God. It is sad to think that our relationship in Christ, should be measured with other events, that is secondary to what it really is all about. I do believe, that it really is all about what happened at the cross. At the cross, a man was saved and baptized for remission of sins. At the cross, another man was rejecting Christ, showing the direct consequences of dying next to or with Christ and not being with Him in paradise that very day.

Every single soul that is saved, should be baptized into the body of Christ, whether OT or NT. This passage makes it clear... For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
(1Co 12:13)

Also consider the corresponding meanings in the following verses...


But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!
(Luk 12:50)

When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
(Joh 19:30)

Tanya~
Jul 26th 2007, 05:18 PM
the most obvious outcome in that passage, is that Jesus died before the other two.

Crucifixion is a long, slow, painful death. The whole reason they went to break the legs is because they knew that they wouldn't be dead yet. Notice Pilate's reaction when Joseph went to him to ask for Jesus' body:
Mark 15:42-45
Now when evening had come, because it was the Preparation Day, that is, the day before the Sabbath, 43 Joseph of Arimathea, a prominent council member, who was himself waiting for the kingdom of God, coming and taking courage, went in to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus. 44 Pilate marveled that He was already dead; and summoning the centurion, he asked him if He had been dead for some time. 45 So when he found out from the centurion, he granted the body to Joseph.
Jesus died earlier because He was not killed by the crucifixion in the natural way, as the others. He died when He gave up His own Spirit.
John 10:17-18
"Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. 18 No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father."

John 19:30
30 So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, "It is finished!" And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.
The thieves did not have this power -- to lay down their own lives. They were still alive, and that is why their legs were broken. This stopped them from being able to hold themselves up to get air. Once the legs are broken, the victim suffocates.
Ultimately, the mechanism of death in crucifixion was suffocation. To breathe, the victim was forced to push up on his feet to allow for inflation of the lungs. As the body weakened and pain in the feet and legs became unbearable, the victim was forced to trade breathing for pain and exhaustion. Eventually, the victim would succumb in this way, becoming utterly exhausted or lapsing into unconsciousness so that he could no longer lift his body off the stipes and inflate his lungs.
From http://www.allaboutjesuschrist.org/crucifixion.htm


The cross is at the end of it all, the event that gives meaning to ChristianityI agree about the importance of the crucifixion because it is Jesus' death that provides atonement for our sins. However, if it were not for the resurrection, we would still be in our sins. It is His resurrection that achieved the victory over death. This is why Paul lays so much emphasis on the resurrection of Jesus. For example:
Rom 10:9
if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
Notice he doesn't say that if you believe in your heart that Jesus died on the cross... Of course the cross did come before the resurrection so to believe the resurrection is also to believe the cross.
1 Cor 15:14-17
And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty. 15 Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ, whom He did not raise up — if in fact the dead do not rise. 16 For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen. 17 And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins!
Baptism signifies one's faith in Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection.
Col 2:12-14
12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

Every single soul that is saved, should be baptized into the body of Christ, whether OT or NT. This passage makes it clear... For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
(1Co 12:13)
Baptism with the Holy Spirit is what Jesus does. Baptism with water is what man does, in obedience to Jesus' command. Jesus commanded the disciples to baptize with water. Baptism in water signifies the person's belief in the gospel, and baptism in the Holy Spirit is God's acceptance of the person. A person can be baptized in water yet not baptized in the Holy Spirit, because if they do not believe, their baptism isn't valid. But if one repents and believes, and is baptized, then they can rely on the promise that they will receive the Holy Spirit. Can God give the Spirit apart from baptism? Yes, He can and has done so. But the promise of the Spirit is connected with water baptism. So if anyone isn't sure that he has received the Holy Spirit when he believed, then he should consider what baptism he received, and be baptized according to the teaching of the Apostles which they received from Jesus.
Acts 19:1-6

And it happened, while Apollos was at Corinth, that Paul, having passed through the upper regions, came to Ephesus. And finding some disciples 2 he said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed ?"

So they said to him,"We have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit."

3 And he said to them, "Into what then were you baptized?"

So they said,"Into John's baptism."

4 Then Paul said,"John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus."

5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied.

Acts 2:37-39

37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?"

38 Then Peter said to them,"Repent , and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call."

Baerly
Jul 27th 2007, 01:20 AM
Baerly,

Have Christ died for the murderer on the cross too?

My guess is that remission of sins is worthless without the true meaning of the cross. Not also the meaning of the cross itself, but what happened there as an example for all to see and remember. One was on His left, the other on His right... think about it...

Hello, If I have studied my bible correctly,Christ died to save those who obey him (Heb.5:8,9) (Titus 2:11,12) (John 9:31) (Acts 10:34,35).

The sin a man commits does not matter (Paul was a murderer,as were those in Acts 2:36).

What matters is HOW the sinner responds to the word of God according to the verses above.

in love Baerly

Baerly
Jul 27th 2007, 01:34 AM
Once again it is also possible that the thief had been baptized in water under Johns baptism (Mark 1:4).

It is possible he was a disciple at one time.

Some did leave Christ and walk with him no more (John 6:66).

He could have repented on the cross. In that case it would be according to (2Chron.7:14). All the follower of the Lord under the O.T LAW had to do is repent and pray. That is what the thief done.

in love Baerly

Matt14
Jul 28th 2007, 06:28 PM
It really does not matter whether Jesus died before the thief, or not. The fact is, Jesus, while He was still alive, told the thief he would be with Him in paradise.

Jesus saved him at that moment. The deal was done, and it was done under a different covenant.

After Jesus died, there is no reason to think the salvation Jesus personally gave the thief would be rescinded.

In essence, the quibble over whether the thief died before or after Jesus died is irrelavent.

The terms of the New Covenant in Christ's blood are belief in Jesus as the Messiah, open confession of Christ as Lord and Savior, repentance, a baptism for the remission of sins. This is what is relevant for man following Jesus' death, burial and resurrection. Let us make sure WE are right with God!

Brotherken
Jul 29th 2007, 06:47 AM
OK
How bout this..
What if a Person lives somewhere where there is no water to speak of..
Like the Desert Or antarctica?
That person Can Not Be Saved until they can find water to be Submerged in?

:hmm:

And I Read somewhere that the water should Be Running(living)water Like a river...Does this make a Difference?
:confused
Thanks for any replys:)

:hug:

Brotherken
Jul 29th 2007, 06:55 AM
oh One more thing
Can a person Baptize them self?
After all we no longer need a priest between us and God...Right?
I think Jesus took care of that...


Years ago When I was a Surfer in so cal..
I use to ask the lord to baptize me when I was "duck Diving" waves

( I googled "Duck Dive") if you need to know;)
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4DMUS_enUS205US205&q=duck+dive

Tanya~
Jul 29th 2007, 04:25 PM
OK
How bout this..
What if a Person lives somewhere where there is no water to speak of..
Like the Desert Or antarctica?
That person Can Not Be Saved until they can find water to be Submerged in?

Hi Brotherken,

Of course they can be saved! :) But the overwhelming majority of people aren't in that kind of situation. What I don't understand is why people argue against baptism as if it's some kind of horrible, difficult, or potentially dangerous thing. Really, it's just a simple matter of doing it God's way -- on God's terms. It's about following the directions, about simply believing what the Lord said. If Jesus says to make disciples by baptizing them and teaching them to observe everything Jesus commanded them, why don't people just do that? I really don't get why it has to be so complicated or controversial. It was the command of Jesus and the practice of the Apostles from the very beginning.

I don't get it! :confused

Brotherken
Jul 29th 2007, 04:41 PM
:) I don't get it either
This thread is How many pages long with folks dissusing this?

I guess we are talking bout The Word of God...
So , Thats a Good Thing:)