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Fenris
Feb 10th 2014, 02:31 PM
There are many instances in the bible where it makes statements not bound by any condition. Do those statements always remain true? Some examples

Genesis 2: And on the seventh day God finished His work which He had made; and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and made it holy; because that in it He rested from all His work which God in creating had made.

Is the seventh day still blessed? Still holy?

Similarly, In Numbers 22 the seer Bilaam desires to curse the Israelites. But God admonishes him, "You must not put a curse on those people, because they are blessed."

Is Israel still blessed?

Walls
Feb 10th 2014, 02:39 PM
There are many instances in the bible where it makes statements not bound by any condition. Do those statements always remain true? Some examples

Genesis 2: And on the seventh day God finished His work which He had made; and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and made it holy; because that in it He rested from all His work which God in creating had made.

Is the seventh day still blessed? Still holy?

Similarly, In Numbers 22 the seer Bilaam desires to curse the Israelites. But God admonishes him, "You must not put a curse on those people, because they are blessed."

Is Israel still blessed?

It is my understanding that the Covenant of the Sabbath with Israel is everlasting. Leviticus 24:8;

"Every Sabbath he shall set it in order before the Lord continually, being taken from the children of Israel by an everlasting covenant."

The issue of Israel being blessed could change. A Covenant is an agreement between two or more parties. If one breaks the covenant penalties occur. Thus, Deuteronomy 28:15-18 onwards overturns the blessings of verses 1-13.
"But it shall come to pass, if you do not obey the voice of the Lord your God, to observe carefully all His commandments and His statutes which I command you today, that all these curses will come upon you and overtake you:
“Cursed shall you be in the city, and cursed shall you be in the country.
“Cursed shall be your basket and your kneading bowl.
“Cursed shall be the fruit of your body and the produce of your land, the increase of your cattle and the offspring of your flocks."
..........

Fenris
Feb 10th 2014, 02:53 PM
Thus, Deuteronomy 28:15-18 onwards overturns the blessings of verses 1-13.
I might be inclined to agree with you that the status was conditional- if Bilaam made the statement right after Sinai. But the episode with Bilaam takes place later, after the episode of the golden calf and the sins of the spies. And yet, they are still "blessed".

Kalahari
Feb 10th 2014, 03:04 PM
There are many instances in the bible where it makes statements not bound by any condition. Do those statements always remain true? Some examples

Genesis 2: And on the seventh day God finished His work which He had made; and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and made it holy; because that in it He rested from all His work which God in creating had made.

Is the seventh day still blessed? Still holy?

Similarly, In Numbers 22 the seer Bilaam desires to curse the Israelites. But God admonishes him, "You must not put a curse on those people, because they are blessed."

Is Israel still blessed?

There are many Sabbath threads over the holiness of the Sabbath. I belief the sabbath is holy in Christ. Mankind came to rest in Christ.

I also belief that Israel is blessed, but again there could be a difference in who Israel is. For me it is the believers and more spesific believers in Christ, Jews and Gentiles. We are certainly blessed in Christ.

Brother Paul
Feb 10th 2014, 03:05 PM
It is my understanding that the Covenant of the Sabbath with Israel is everlasting. Leviticus 24:8;

"Every Sabbath he shall set it in order before the Lord continually, being taken from the children of Israel by an everlasting covenant."

The issue of Israel being blessed could change. A Covenant is an agreement between two or more parties. If one breaks the covenant penalties occur. Thus, Deuteronomy 28:15-18 onwards overturns the blessings of verses 1-13.
"But it shall come to pass, if you do not obey the voice of the Lord your God, to observe carefully all His commandments and His statutes which I command you today, that all these curses will come upon you and overtake you:
“Cursed shall you be in the city, and cursed shall you be in the country.
“Cursed shall be your basket and your kneading bowl.
“Cursed shall be the fruit of your body and the produce of your land, the increase of your cattle and the offspring of your flocks."
..........

Well put Walls...and at the time of Balaam all the faithful of "Israel" is/was/were blessed

Brother Paul
Feb 10th 2014, 03:08 PM
I might be inclined to agree with you that the status was conditional- if Bilaam made the statement right after Sinai. But the episode with Bilaam takes place later, after the episode of the golden calf and the sins of the spies. And yet, they are still "blessed".

However, many were cursed weren't they...that does not equal Israel as a whole were cursed, true Israel is Israel spiritually (the children of faith are always blessed in every covenant)

Brother Paul
Feb 10th 2014, 03:09 PM
There are many Sabbath threads over the holiness of the Sabbath. I belief the sabbath is holy in Christ. Mankind came to rest in Christ.

I also belief that Israel is blessed, but again there could be a difference in who Israel is. For me it is the believers and more spesific believers in Christ, Jews and Gentiles. We are certainly blessed in Christ.

You are right Kal...

Did yo know the word Sabbath does not appear in Genesis at all?

Fenris
Feb 10th 2014, 03:11 PM
There are many Sabbath threads over the holiness of the Sabbath. I belief the sabbath is holy in Christ. Mankind came to rest in Christ.So the seventh day is no longer holy I take it?


I also belief that Israel is blessed, but again there could be a difference in who Israel is. For me it is the believers and more spesific believers in Christ, Jews and Gentiles. We are certainly blessed in Christ.
So the nation of Israel is no longer blessed?

Got it.

Fenris
Feb 10th 2014, 03:12 PM
However, many were cursed weren't they...
God doesn't give Bilaam permission to curse "many of them". He makes a blanket statement "they are blessed".

Walls
Feb 10th 2014, 03:13 PM
I might be inclined to agree with you that the status was conditional- if Bilaam made the statement right after Sinai. But the episode with Bilaam takes place later, after the episode of the golden calf and the sins of the spies. And yet, they are still "blessed".

You have touched on a major point of both Old and New Testament. It is that when God choses and justifies a people, He does not accept the judgment of outsiders on them. Outsiders have to look upon His choice and His justification. Meanwhile, God knows that His people, both Israel and the Church, are full of fallen people and that they need His chastisement. But this is an internal matter between God and His people, Father and son.

So in the case of Balaam, God does not allow an outside force to damage His people. The reason is; "this is My possession and I am the Justifier". But internally God's wrath on a wayward Israel is oft kindled. Again, the same effect touches Moses. Korah and the rebels accuse Moses of (1) being a commoner like them, and (2) marrying a heathen woman. Both are correct, but they touched God's choice - fatally.

In the New Testament this is again seen in the matter of Paul. He is found to be a murderer of Christians, small in stature and words. But he is God's choice, and has been justified by God - so God does not tolerate outside judgement. The section 2nd Corinthians 10:7-18 ends with;

"For not he who commends himself is approved, but whom the Lord commends."

Fenris
Feb 10th 2014, 03:19 PM
You have touched on a major point of both Old and New Testament. It is that when God choses and justifies a people, He does not accept the judgment of outsiders on them. Outsiders have to look upon His choice and His justification.
I think this is an excellent concept. I like it very much! But still, God doesn't tell Bilaam "do not curse them because they are mine". God says "Do not curse them because they are blessed". The exact words that God uses is surely important?

Aviyah
Feb 10th 2014, 03:57 PM
Is Israel still blessed?

"Israel" the descendants of Abraham or "Israel" the country in the middle east which happens to call itself by the same name?

Fenris
Feb 10th 2014, 04:11 PM
"Israel" the descendants of Abraham or "Israel" the country in the middle east which happens to call itself by the same name?
:hmm:They aren't the same?

Aviyah
Feb 10th 2014, 04:14 PM
:hmm:They aren't the same?

If I take a plane to Israel will I be blessed?

Fenris
Feb 10th 2014, 04:19 PM
If I take a plane to Israel will I be blessed?

That's a good question. At the time of Bilaam's attempted curse, there was a "mixed multitude" living with the Israelites whom he also could not curse? :hmm:

Aviyah
Feb 10th 2014, 04:24 PM
That's a good question. At the time of Bilaam's attempted curse, there was a "mixed multitude" living with the Israelites whom he also could not curse? :hmm:

Does that mean the people are blessed or the national entity? Can a descendant of Isaac be blessed without living in the country Israel?

Fenris
Feb 10th 2014, 04:36 PM
Does that mean the people are blessed or the national entity? Or perhaps both?


Can a descendant of Isaac be blessed without living in the country Israel?

Since Bilaams attempted curse took place outside the land of Israel, I would say most certainly yes.

Aviyah
Feb 10th 2014, 04:54 PM
Or perhaps both?

Can anyone name their country Israel and be blessed?

Brother Paul
Feb 10th 2014, 05:05 PM
God doesn't give Bilaam permission to curse "many of them". He makes a blanket statement "they are blessed".

Although I see your attempts to divert (probably unintentional) the OP, my comment came in reference to the time of the worshipping of the Golden Calf...God swallowed up around 3,000 that very day...first they were given a choice. Therefore I NEVER said God gave permission to Balaam to curse many of them...but in History many of the children of Israel been cursed...right at the present time Militant Islam speaks curses against them regularly...but God never curses Israel. He curses the serpent in the garden but as for Israel they were given a choice...do this and this will happen, do that and that will happen...thus the curses on Israel were only the result of themselves and their actions or decisions.

The 7th day remains holy (set apart) but it was never intended to be a day for corp[orate gathering for worship (and was never observed as such until after it was established as a "custom" after the Babylonian Captivity...never was God's command)...however the rest (shabbat) was anti-typed in many ways and fulfilled IN CHRIST and we have entered into Him who is our rest (shabbat)...all we (and the Jewish Israelites) who labored and were heavy laden have come unto HIm and He has given us shabbat...

BrianW
Feb 10th 2014, 05:07 PM
I think in this case it was the "people" not the "place". God made covenant with the people, not the land. He also had them Take land and gave it to them. Different things yeah?

The rest of this is said with my mod hat on. We already have Sabbath Day threads going on. I don't want to see this turned into another one. That was used as an example which is fine. Let's leave it as being used as example and not a debate topic in this this thread.

Fenris
Feb 10th 2014, 05:12 PM
Can anyone name their country Israel and be blessed?

It's like I say, everyone wants to be the Jews but no one wants to be Jewish :lol:

T W Taylor
Feb 10th 2014, 05:14 PM
Can anyone name their country Israel and be blessed?


There are other countries that are Israel, but not called Israel, and they are blessed also.

Sojourner
Feb 10th 2014, 05:15 PM
I think this is an excellent concept. I like it very much! But still, God doesn't tell Bilaam "do not curse them because they are mine". God says "Do not curse them because they are blessed". The exact words that God uses is surely important?

Long before the emergence of the Jewish people through Abraham, we see Noah cursing Hams' son instead of Ham, because God had already bestowed His blessing on him. Man cannot curse what God has blessed, just as man cannot bless what God has cursed.

Fenris
Feb 10th 2014, 05:21 PM
Although I see your attempts to divert (probably unintentional) the OP, my comment came in reference to the time of the worshipping of the Golden Calf...God swallowed up around 3,000 that very day...first they were given a choice. Therefore I NEVER said God gave permission to Balaam to curse many of them...but in History many of the children of Israel been cursed...
So let's speculate together. Were the Israelites not worthy of a curse when Bilaam attempted but they were at other times?

keck553
Feb 10th 2014, 05:22 PM
There are many instances in the bible where it makes statements not bound by any condition. Do those statements always remain true? Some examples

Genesis 2: And on the seventh day God finished His work which He had made; and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and made it holy; because that in it He rested from all His work which God in creating had made.

Is the seventh day still blessed? Still holy?

Similarly, In Numbers 22 the seer Bilaam desires to curse the Israelites. But God admonishes him, "You must not put a curse on those people, because they are blessed."

Is Israel still blessed?

Deuteronomy 33:27: "The eternal God is your refuge, and underneath are the everlasting arms. He will drive out your enemy before you, saying, 'Destroy him!'

Psalm 102:24-27: "So I said: "Do not take me away, O my God, in the midst of my days; your years go on through all generations. In the beginning you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands. They will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment. Like clothing you will change them and they will be discarded. But you remain the same, and your years will never end."

Malachi 3:6: "I the LORD do not change. So you, O descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed."

James 1:17: "Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows."

Fenris
Feb 10th 2014, 05:22 PM
Long before the emergence of the Jewish people through Abraham, we see Noah cursing Hams' son instead of Ham, because God had already bestowed His blessing on him. Man cannot curse what God has blessed, just as man cannot bless what God has cursed.

Hmm I have to think about this one.

keck553
Feb 10th 2014, 05:27 PM
It's like I say, everyone wants to be the Jews but no one wants to be Jewish :lol:

Adam and Eve had an identity. In the olam haba, I personally believe that identity will be restored fully, but until then this is how I identify myself:

26 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.

Of course the will be distinction among us, but those distinctions in role (like being a descendant of Abraham, or woman, etc.) will be something to be celebrated, not smothered. Our God is the master of complex unity.

Aviyah
Feb 10th 2014, 05:28 PM
It's like I say, everyone wants to be the Jews but no one wants to be Jewish :lol:

Well you said that non-Jews living with Jews still could not be cursed, so if the nation is blessed for "being" Israel, what prevents any country from calling itself Israel and being blessed simply because there are Jews in its population?

keck553
Feb 10th 2014, 05:34 PM
Well you said that non-Jews living with Jews still could not be cursed, so if the nation is blessed for "being" Israel, what prevents any country from calling itself Israel and being blessed simply because there are Jews in its population?

One would have to be blind to not see how modern Israel has been blessed and has blessed the world.

Fenris
Feb 10th 2014, 05:35 PM
Well you said that non-Jews living with Jews still could not be cursed, so if the nation is blessed for "being" Israel, what prevents any country from calling itself Israel and being blessed simply because there are Jews in its population?
I think nations that have had Jews living amongst them have been blessed, and when they invariably kicked them out they lost that blessing. Having said that, the current nation of Israel is the first majority Jewish country since the Bar Kochba rebellion, and that is where it would seem the blessing would be.

Aviyah
Feb 10th 2014, 05:35 PM
One would have to be blind to not see how modern Israel has been blessed and has blessed the world.

Is the country blessed because it calls itself "Israel" or because there happen to be a lot of Jews who live there? How does Israel's prosperity differ from that of the United States which was formed by Protestants and Catholics - or even Russia which was grown by the Orthodox?

Side note though, I don't see how the country Israel has "blessed the world."

keck553
Feb 10th 2014, 05:51 PM
Is the country blessed because it calls itself "Israel" or because there happen to be a lot of Jews who live there? How does Israel's prosperity differ from that of the United States which was formed by Protestants and Catholics - or even Russia which was grown by the Orthodox?

Side note though, I don't see how the country Israel has "blessed the world."


Israel, the 100th smallest country, with less than 1/1000th of the world's population, can lay claim to the following:

Israel has the highest ratio of university degrees to the population in the world.

Israel produces more scientific papers per capita than any other nation by a large margin - 109 per 10,000 people - as well as one of the highest per capita rates of patents filed.

In proportion to its population, Israel has the largest number of startup companies in the world. In absolute terms, Israel has the largest number of startup companies than any other country in the world, except the US (3,500 companies mostly in hi-tech).

Israel is ranked #2 in the world for venture capital funds right behind the US.

Outside the United States and Canada, Israel has the largest number of NASDAQ listed companies.

Israel has the highest average living standards in the Middle East. The per capita income in 2000 was over $17,500, exceeding that of the UK.

With an aerial arsenal of over 250 F-16s, Israel has the largest fleet of the aircraft outside of the US.

Israel's $100 billion economy is larger than all of its immediate neighbors combined.

On a per capita basis, Israel has the largest number of biotech start-ups.

Twenty-four percent of Israel's workforce holds university degrees - ranking third in the industrialized world, after the United States and Holland - and 12 percent hold advanced degrees.

Israel is the only liberal democracy in the Middle East.

In 1984 and 1991, Israel airlifted a total of 22,000 Ethiopian Jews at risk in Ethiopia to safety in Israel.

When Golda Meir was elected Prime Minister of Israel in 1969, she became the world's second elected female leader in modern times.

When the U. S. Embassy in Nairobi, Kenya was bombed in 1998, Israeli rescue teams were on the scene within a day - and saved three victims from the rubble.

Israel has the third highest rate of entrepreneurship - and the highest rate among women and among people over 55 - in the world.

Relative to its population, Israel is the largest immigrant-absorbing nation on earth. Immigrants come in search of democracy, religious freedom, and economic opportunity.

Israel was the first nation in the world to adopt the Kimberly process, an international standard that certifies diamonds as "conflict free."

According to industry officials, Israel designed the airline industry's most impenetrable flight security. U. S. officials now look to Israel for advice on how to handle airborne security threats.

In 1991, during the Gulf War, the Israel Philharmonic Orchestra played a concert wearing gas masks as scud missiles fired by Saddam Hussein fell on Tel Aviv.

Israel has the world's second highest per capita of new books.

Israel is the only country in the world that entered the 21st century with a net gain in its number of trees, made more remarkable because this was achieved in an area considered mainly desert.

Israel has more museums per capita than any other country.

Medicine... Israeli scientists developed the first fully computerized,no-radiation, diagnostic instrumentation for breast cancer.

An Israeli company developed a computerized system for ensuring proper

administration of medications, thus removing human error from medical treatment. Every year in U. S. hospitals 7,000 patients die from treatment mistakes.

Israel's Givun imaging developed the first ingestible video camera, so small it fits inside a pill. Used to view the small intestine from the inside, the camera helps doctors diagnose cancer and digestive disorders.

Researchers in Israel developed a new device that directly helps the heart pump blood, an innovation with the potential to save lives among those with heart failure. The new device is synchronized with the heart's mechanical operations through a sophisticated system of sensors.

Technology... With more than 3,000 high-tech companies and start-ups, Israel has the highest concentration of hi-tech companies in the world (apart from the Silicon Valley).

In response to serious water shortages, Israeli engineers and agriculturalists developed a revolutionary drip irrigation system to minimize the amount of water used to grow crops.

Israel has the highest percentage in the world of home computers per capita.

Israel leads the world in the number of scientists and technicians in the workforce, with 145 per 10,000, as opposed to 85 in the U. S., over 70 in Japan, and less than 60 in Germany. With over 25% of its work force employed in technical professions. Israel places first in this category as well.

The cell phone was developed in Israel by Motorola, which has its largest development center in Israel.

Most of the Windows NT operating system was developed by Microsoft-Israel.

The Pentium MMX Chip technology was designed in Israel at Intel.

Voice mail technology was developed in Israel.

Both Microsoft and Cisco built their only R&D facilities outside the US in Israel.

The AOL Instant Messenger was developed in 1996 by four young Israelis.

A new acne treatment developed in Israel, the ClearLight device,produces a high-intensity, ultraviolet-light-free, narrow-band blue light that causes acne bacteria to self-destruct - all without damaging surroundings skin or tissue.

An Israeli company was the first to develop and install a large-scale solar-powered and fully functional electricity generating plant, in southern California's Mojave desert."

All the above while engaged in regular wars with an implacable enemy that seeks its destruction, and an economy continuously under strain by having to spend more per capita on its own protection than any other country on earth. This from a country just 55 years young having started off life on a very frontiers-like basis, whose population had mostly just emerged from the devastating World War II years.

Is this enough for you, or do you demand more?

Aviyah
Feb 10th 2014, 05:56 PM
Is this enough for you, or do you demand more?

You didn't answer my questions, lol but if I care about any of these I guess I'll come back to it. Now that you're done copy-pasting Israel mantra, maybe you can actually read what I said?

I did like this part though, as it basically summarizes the whole list:


right behind the US.

Fenris
Feb 10th 2014, 06:14 PM
Now that you're done copy-pasting Israel mantra
I guess we can put you in the "Israel is no longer blessed" category

Aviyah
Feb 10th 2014, 06:14 PM
I guess we can put you in the "Israel is no longer blessed" category

Israel the people is blessed, Israel the country is just a country. Listing mildly notable accomplishments of a country which depends largely on other countries hardly shows that the country itself is special. Neither is the United States blessed but the Christians who built it. If Israel the country is "blessed" due to achievements then America is more blessed because we became the largest, most influential empire to ever exist - and we're not Jewish. Moreover, Israel exists on the States' bill. If we're going to say the blessing applies to inanimate objects and concepts, then the blessing is pretty meaningless.

Fenris
Feb 10th 2014, 06:18 PM
Israel the people is blessed, Israel the country is just a country.
I don't understand how one can be but not the other

BrianW
Feb 10th 2014, 06:19 PM
I think that Israel the country is blessed because Israel the people are blessed. Yes, even today when they aren't Christians. :)

The two kind of go hand in hand and this can be seen as the continuing fulfillment of prophecy outlined in scripture.

Aviyah
Feb 10th 2014, 06:24 PM
I don't understand how one can be but not the other

Because this implies one can simply call himself Israel and become the Biblical Israel.

The Holy Roman Empire was not holy, roman, nor an empire - yet that's it was called. Names are nothing. Israel is prosperous because Israel has Jews - not because Israel is "Israel." Likewise, the United States has been prosperous because the United States has/had Christians; same goes for Great Britain and Russia. If/when Israel is taken over by Islam, it will not profit from the blessing allotted to Jews.

the rookie
Feb 10th 2014, 06:25 PM
There are many instances in the bible where it makes statements not bound by any condition. Do those statements always remain true? Some examples

Genesis 2: And on the seventh day God finished His work which He had made; and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and made it holy; because that in it He rested from all His work which God in creating had made.

Is the seventh day still blessed? Still holy?

Similarly, In Numbers 22 the seer Bilaam desires to curse the Israelites. But God admonishes him, "You must not put a curse on those people, because they are blessed."

Is Israel still blessed?

Yes .

Fenris
Feb 10th 2014, 06:27 PM
Because this implies one can simply call himself Israel and become the Biblical Israel.

Hmm no that isn't my point at all. If the people Israel are blessed, and you say that they are, how can a country full of them not be blessed?

Fenris
Feb 10th 2014, 06:28 PM
Yes .
Shortest answer for this topic! :)

the rookie
Feb 10th 2014, 06:29 PM
Well you said that non-Jews living with Jews still could not be cursed, so if the nation is blessed for "being" Israel, what prevents any country from calling itself Israel and being blessed simply because there are Jews in its population?

Geographic location.

One can conquer Idaho and rename it "Israel", and even populate it with Israelites.

However, it would not have served as the birthplace of our faith, the homeland of our spiritual patriarchs, and the earthly home of our Lord, who also happens to be eternally and ethnically "of" that land.

Biblically, the people matter, yes, but the Law and the Prophets made a continual point of reminding the people of God that the land matters a whole lot to Him as well. When you disconnect from the land, you disconnect from the storyline :)

the rookie
Feb 10th 2014, 06:30 PM
Shortest answer for this topic! :)

You asked a yes / no question :)

Fenris
Feb 10th 2014, 06:32 PM
You asked a yes / no question :)

Which has spawned (thus far) three pages of discussion! :lol:

Fenris
Feb 10th 2014, 06:34 PM
Geographic location.

Yeah that's true. How could I forget this?

Deuteronomy 11: But the land into which you are about to cross to possess it, a land of hills and valleys, drinks water from the rain of heaven, a land for which the LORD your God cares; the eyes of the LORD your God are always on it, from the beginning even to the end of the year

Aviyah
Feb 10th 2014, 06:36 PM
Geographic location.

How long are/were they supposed to be in the promised land anyway?

the rookie
Feb 10th 2014, 06:43 PM
How long are/were they supposed to be in the promised land anyway?

That wasn't really my point - there's a bigger storyline that runs though the scriptures like a thread - one that is far bigger than the people themselves. Again, the Law and the Prophets continually expressed that the land, ultimately, was Yaweh's - and that He was jealous for it to be and express what He desires it to be. For example, Zechariah 8 expresses the Lord's "zeal for Zion" that transcends the people that lived there. His zeal was for the city to be internationally known as, "the City of Truth".

The "land" is blessed (and therefore, the people are blessed), not because the land or the people are special but because of the Lord - His plans, His desires, and His intention to have the land for Himself as a "resting place" and a "dwelling place" for Himself and His Messiah to rule.


Yeah that's true. How could I forget this?

Deuteronomy 11: But the land into which you are about to cross to possess it, a land of hills and valleys, drinks water from the rain of heaven, a land for which the LORD your God cares; the eyes of the LORD your God are always on it, from the beginning even to the end of the year

Exactly :)

Aviyah
Feb 10th 2014, 06:44 PM
The "land" is blessed (and therefore, the people are blessed), not because the land or the people are special but because of the Lord - His plans, His desires, and His intention to have the land for Himself as a "resting place" and a "dwelling place" for Himself and His Messiah to rule.

Oh okay, so regardless of who lives in the geographical area, they will receive the blessing? Now it seems like the blessing just has to do with fertile ground and rain.

Fenris
Feb 10th 2014, 06:56 PM
Oh okay, so regardless of who lives in the geographical area, they will receive the blessing? Now it seems like the blessing just has to do with fertile ground and rain.

Leviticus 26:34 Then the land will enjoy its sabbath years all the time that it lies desolate and you are in the country of your enemies;

This is what happened. The land was an utterly desolate desert during the Jewish diaspora. Mark Twain visited Israel in 1867 and made some observations-

“We traversed some miles of the desolate country, whose soil is rich enough but is given wholly to weeds, as silent, mournful expanse. A desolation is here that not even imagination can grace with the pomp of life and action. We reached Tavor safely. We never saw a human being on the whole route. We pressed on towards the goal…, renowned Jerusalem. The further we went, the hotter the sun got, the more rocky and bare, repulsive and dreary the landscape became. There was hardly a tree or a shrub anywhere. Even the olive and the cactus, those fast friends of a worthless soil, had almost deserted the country. No landscape exists that is more tiresome to the eye than that which bound the approaches to Jerusalem. Jerusalem is mournful, dreary and lifeless. I would not desire to live there.”

In fact, there are rabbis who on the basis of Leviticus 26:34 alone have stated that when the land of Israel blooms it is a sign of the nearness of the messianic era.

keck553
Feb 10th 2014, 07:02 PM
You didn't answer my questions, lol but if I care about any of these I guess I'll come back to it. Now that you're done copy-pasting Israel mantra, maybe you can actually read what I said?

I did like this part though, as it basically summarizes the whole list:

i don't care about your question because God saw fit to allow Israel to be reborn in the land He gave them. My response was to your side note, and it addressed it perfectly. I also didn't know facts were mantra, but your comment does reveal a bias.

As to the US, if you care to study history in detail, Jews have been blessing us since we were colonies, and we have corporately (until recently) returned the favor. Its only fitting the US would be blessed. But I think its pretty obvious to most that the US will not maintain that status for much longer. There are no Biblical promises for the US, other than the promise God gave to Abraham/Israel.

keck553
Feb 10th 2014, 07:03 PM
I don't understand how one can be but not the other

Didn't God give promises regarding the land?

the rookie
Feb 10th 2014, 07:10 PM
Oh okay, so regardless of who lives in the geographical area, they will receive the blessing? Now it seems like the blessing just has to do with fertile ground and rain.

Isaiah 62 - the people and the land are "married" (as a "Bridegroom and a bride"). In other words, Isaiah speaks of the destinies of land and people as being intertwined and inseparable. That prophecy is the "capstone" to the theme he has been developing throughout his prophetic narrative. Isaiah's main theme was about the future promise and glory of the land, juxtaposed with the present (at that time) sin-filled condition of the people. How would God take a "sin-filled people" and bring them into deep relationship with Him (and the land) in His full glory?

The "micro" point here is that, again, both the land and the people (the children of Abraham) matter to God as it relates to the subjects of blessing and glory.

Aviyah
Feb 10th 2014, 07:54 PM
In fact, there are rabbis who on the basis of Leviticus 26:34 alone have stated that when the land of Israel blooms it is a sign of the nearness of the messianic era.

IOW, the land is important until the "messianic era?"


Isaiah 62 - the people and the land are "married" (as a "Bridegroom and a bride"). In other words, Isaiah speaks of the destinies of land and people as being intertwined and inseparable.

Why is the land so important if the whole Earth is God's? What happens to it after this world is destroyed and the New Earth is created?


i don't care about your question

Then I don't care about your answer.

Fenris
Feb 10th 2014, 07:58 PM
IOW, the land is important until the "messianic era?"

That remark was sort of an aside, not the main point of my post. Leviticus 26:34 was the point, why did you excise it from the quote?

the rookie
Feb 10th 2014, 08:02 PM
Why is the land so important if the whole Earth is God's?

We're physical beings who live in geographic locations. God (as you know) became a Man who also now hangs out in geographic locations. The storyline of the word of God is "land-based" - He comes to His people, He dwells in the land, He rules from the land, etc.


What happens to it after this world is destroyed and the New Earth is created?

Your question is based on a presupposition that I don't happen to agree with :)

mikebr
Feb 10th 2014, 08:13 PM
I've learned that just because something is biblical doesn't mean its Christian. Seems like to me sometimes I'm more Jew than Christian?

mikebr
Feb 10th 2014, 08:15 PM
To this day when Moses is read a veil is placed over their hearts! (paraphrase of course)

T W Taylor
Feb 10th 2014, 09:14 PM
Is the seventh day still blessed? Still holy?

Yes, the seventh day is still Blessed, and still Holy.


Similarly, In Numbers 22 the seer Bilaam desires to curse the Israelites. But God admonishes him, "You must not put a curse on those people, because they are blessed."

Is Israel still blessed?

Yes Israel is still blessed. So far all I have seen in this discussion is the blessing of the country of Israel, the Jewish people, Judah, some of Levi and Benjamin. What about the rest of Israel, are they still blessed too?

All of Israel was Blessed, I think the rest of Israel should be still blessed too.

keck553
Feb 10th 2014, 10:47 PM
Then I don't care about your answer.

In case you didn't notice, I didn't give you an answer to not care about..... :)

keck553
Feb 10th 2014, 10:52 PM
We're physical beings who live in geographic locations. God (as you know) became a Man who also now hangs out in geographic locations. The storyline of the word of God is "land-based" - He comes to His people, He dwells in the land, He rules from the land,

To further your point -

1 He has founded his city on the holy mountain.
2 The Lord loves the gates of Zion
more than all the other dwellings of Jacob.
3 Glorious things are said of you,
city of God:
4 “I will record Rahab and Babylon
among those who acknowledge me—
Philistia too, and Tyre, along with Cush[c]—
and will say, ‘This one was born in Zion.’”
5 Indeed, of Zion it will be said,
“This one and that one were born in her,
and the Most High himself will establish her.”
6 The Lord will write in the register of the peoples:
“This one was born in Zion.”
7 As they make music they will sing,
“All my fountains are in you.”

the rookie
Feb 10th 2014, 10:58 PM
To further your point -

1 He has founded his city on the holy mountain.
2 The Lord loves the gates of Zion
more than all the other dwellings of Jacob.
3 Glorious things are said of you,
city of God:
4 “I will record Rahab and Babylon
among those who acknowledge me—
Philistia too, and Tyre, along with Cush[c]—
and will say, ‘This one was born in Zion.’”
5 Indeed, of Zion it will be said,
“This one and that one were born in her,
and the Most High himself will establish her.”
6 The Lord will write in the register of the peoples:
“This one was born in Zion.”
7 As they make music they will sing,
“All my fountains are in you.”

This is awesome!

I think people forget that our story has never been "We get to God" but has always been, "God comes to us". The story "ends" not with our ascent into heaven, but with heaven's descent to the earth. A geographic location on the earth will be the "resting place" for the soles of His feet and the throne of His Son.

Ceegen
Feb 10th 2014, 11:02 PM
There are many instances in the bible where it makes statements not bound by any condition. Do those statements always remain true? Some examples

Genesis 2: And on the seventh day God finished His work which He had made; and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and made it holy; because that in it He rested from all His work which God in creating had made.

Is the seventh day still blessed? Still holy?

Similarly, In Numbers 22 the seer Bilaam desires to curse the Israelites. But God admonishes him, "You must not put a curse on those people, because they are blessed."

Is Israel still blessed?

They were blessed when sent into captivity to Babylon and beyond, and they were blessed when they were in their own land enjoying the fruits of their labor, and they are blessed to this very day.

Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? Because God will yet still choose Israel, even though we all rebel.