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ChangedByHim
Mar 5th 2014, 03:34 PM
I'm excited! Are you?

Rev 21:1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

17 Then he measured its wall: one hundred and forty-four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of an angel.

Converted, that's 1,500 miles long, 1,500 miles wide and 1,500 miles high! I found this picture that illustrates the size. The city will be so high that a sky scraper could go 600,000 floors! At 5,000 miles away, the city would appear more than 130 times larger than the moon.

It is so large that it can contain every person who has been born, plus additional billions of people.

2 Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

http://tourofheaven.com/images/new-jerusalem/PC140549.jpg

Aviyah
Mar 5th 2014, 04:12 PM
One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.” And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God. (Rev. 21:9-10)

Jesus is going to marry a giant cube in the sky?

http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/urkel.gif

ChangedByHim
Mar 5th 2014, 04:13 PM
One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.” And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God. (Rev. 21:9-10)

Jesus is going to marry a giant cube in the sky?

http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/urkel.gif

The citizens are His bride, but we live in the city.

Smartiepants!

Aviyah
Mar 7th 2014, 06:03 PM
The citizens are His bride, but we live in the city. Smartiepants!

But the text you quoted says it is the actual architecture which is the bride - "I saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband" - and then later an angel says he will show John the bride - “Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.” And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God." Following that is an entire chapter describing the city, not the inhabitants, as beautifully decorated with rare gems and precious metals. That seems bizzare if the inhabitants (plural) are the bride (singular).

Maybe the city is symbolic of the saved? It is after all the book of Revelation. That would explain why on the foundation of the city is written the 12 apostles, and on the gates are written the 12 tribes of Israel. The inhabitants aren't mentioned even once. :hmm:

:note: More comparions in Post #77 (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php/254133-New-Jerusalem?p=3106784#post3106784).

keck553
Mar 7th 2014, 06:19 PM
I'm excited! Are you?

Rev 21:1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

17 Then he measured its wall: one hundred and forty-four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of an angel.

Converted, that's 1,500 miles long, 1,500 miles wide and 1,500 miles high! I found this picture that illustrates the size. The city will be so high that a sky scraper could go 600,000 floors! At 5,000 miles away, the city would appear more than 130 times larger than the moon.

It is so large that it can contain every person who has been born, plus additional billions of people.

2 Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

http://tourofheaven.com/images/new-jerusalem/PC140549.jpg

Is this the world wearing a phylactery?

divaD
Mar 7th 2014, 09:02 PM
But the text you quoted says it is the actual architecture which is the bride - "I saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband" - and then later an angel says he will show John the bride - “Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.” And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God." Following that is an entire chapter describing the city, not the inhabitants, as beautifully decorated with rare gems and precious metals. That seems bizzare if the inhabitants (plural) are the bride (singular).

Maybe the city is symbolic of the saved? It is after all the book of Revelation. That would explain why on the foundation of the city is written the 12 apostles, and on the gates are written the 12 tribes of Israel. The inhabitants aren't mentioned even once. :hmm:

:2cents:

By the way, you are the second person to call smartypants today. LOL (actually this was a day earlier).

What about what this text says then?

Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.


Jesus is the speaker, correct? The one that overcometh would be part of the church, correct? To try and illustrate something here in order to make the point clearer, let's personify this overcomer and make it you. The text would then read such as the following...


To Aviyah that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and She shall go no more out: and I will write upon Aviyah the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon Aviyah my new name.

If the name of the city is written on you, how then are you that city? According to this passage there are 3 things written upon you...1)the name of my God...2)the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem..3)my new name. As to the other two things written on you, you wouldn't say those are you, right? and if no, why then conclude the new Jerusalem is you?

But I do have a theory though.

Revelation 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.


What usually makes up a bride? The bride herself and the wedding gown. with that in mind, the wedding gown is new Jerusalem with the church being what's inside
of the wedding gown, thus both together comprise the bride, yet neither are each other any more than a bride and her wedding gown are each other. Where did I come up with all of this? You got me..all I know is, these are the kinds of things that sort of enter into my mind out of nowhere at times. Is there anything to it then? Not really sure, but I do see it being a logical deduction.

Aviyah
Mar 7th 2014, 09:38 PM
If the name of the city is written on you, how then are you that city?

I am not the city, and you are not the city. All of us collectively are called "New Jerusalem." That's the name God has chosen for His people, both saved Jew and saved Gentile combined into one entity. The names we have written on us (not literal tattoos IMO) represent our identity. Our origin is God, we are a part of His people, and we are individuals. Think ID, seal, or passport.

YHVH-NJ-Aviyah2.0

But again I regard this as highly symbolic imagery, and not that we will have actual serial numbers imprinted on our foreheads.


What usually makes up a bride? The bride herself and the wedding gown. with that in mind, the wedding gown is new Jerusalem with the church being what's inside of the wedding gown, thus both together comprise the bride,

That's a good analogy, and I agree that there could be "wedding gown" imagery, but the text does not say that the city is the gown. In fact, it says that the holy city is the subject being prepared as the bride - so the gemstones, glass, and metals would be representative of a wedding gown to use your illustration. Revelation doesn't even mention inhabitants, and the city itself is called the bride twice.

Curtis
Mar 7th 2014, 09:39 PM
I'm excited! Are you?

Rev 21:1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

17 Then he measured its wall: one hundred and forty-four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of an angel.

Converted, that's 1,500 miles long, 1,500 miles wide and 1,500 miles high! I found this picture that illustrates the size. The city will be so high that a sky scraper could go 600,000 floors! At 5,000 miles away, the city would appear more than 130 times larger than the moon.

It is so large that it can contain every person who has been born, plus additional billions of people.

2 Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

http://tourofheaven.com/images/new-jerusalem/PC140549.jpg

John could have just said, "Wow, this city is really big" but that would not give unto us the comprehension needed to understand its size. It had to be measured first to be understood fully. I believe the "measure of faith" is a tool given unto the Church so that we to can measure the height, depth, length, and the breadth of the Love of God that passes all understanding, so we might be filled with all the fullness of God. Until we measure we will never really understand.

Aviyah
Mar 7th 2014, 09:59 PM
Until we measure we will never really understand.

I'd say His love measures out to about the distance from one wrist to the other.

clarkthompson
Mar 7th 2014, 11:47 PM
I believe the best part of it is going to be Jesus.

ChangedByHim
Mar 8th 2014, 12:36 PM
But the text you quoted says it is the actual architecture which is the bride - "I saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband" - and then later an angel says he will show John the bride - “Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.” And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God." Following that is an entire chapter describing the city, not the inhabitants, as beautifully decorated with rare gems and precious metals. That seems bizzare if the inhabitants (plural) are the bride (singular).

Maybe the city is symbolic of the saved? It is after all the book of Revelation. That would explain why on the foundation of the city is written the 12 apostles, and on the gates are written the 12 tribes of Israel. The inhabitants aren't mentioned even once. :hmm:

:2cents:

By the way, you are the second person to call smartypants today. LOL (actually this was a day earlier).

It doesn't say that the architecture is His bride.

Aviyah
Mar 8th 2014, 04:58 PM
It doesn't say that the architecture is His bride.

If the city is not the bride, why would an entire chapter be dedicated to describing it as the bride... especially when earlier John said it looked like a bride adorned for her husband? Why do you assume this is a literal city and not representative of the saints?

Then came one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues and spoke to me, saying, “Come, I will show you the Bride, the wife of the Lamb.” And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great, high mountain, and showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God, having the glory of God, its radiance like a most rare jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal. It had a great, high wall, with twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and on the gates the names of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel were inscribed— on the east three gates, on the north three gates, on the south three gates, and on the west three gates. And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

And the one who spoke with me had a measuring rod of gold to measure the city and its gates and walls. The city lies foursquare, its length the same as its width. And he measured the city with his rod, 12,000 stadia. Its length and width and height are equal. He also measured its wall, 144 cubits by human measurement, which is also an angel's measurement. The wall was built of jasper, while the city was pure gold, like clear glass. The foundations of the wall of the city were adorned with every kind of jewel. The first was jasper, the second sapphire, the third agate, the fourth emerald, the fifth onyx, the sixth carnelian, the seventh chrysolite, the eighth beryl, the ninth topaz, the tenth chrysoprase, the eleventh jacinth, the twelfth amethyst. And the twelve gates were twelve pearls, each of the gates made of a single pearl, and the street of the city was pure gold, like transparent glass.

And I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb. And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and its lamp is the Lamb. By its light will the nations walk, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it and its gates will never be shut by day—and there will be no night there. They will bring into it the glory and the honor of the nations. But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life. (Rev. 21:9-27)

Old man
Mar 8th 2014, 05:26 PM
I'm excited! Are you?

Rev 21:1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

17 Then he measured its wall: one hundred and forty-four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of an angel.

Converted, that's 1,500 miles long, 1,500 miles wide and 1,500 miles high! I found this picture that illustrates the size. The city will be so high that a sky scraper could go 600,000 floors! At 5,000 miles away, the city would appear more than 130 times larger than the moon.

It is so large that it can contain every person who has been born, plus additional billions of people.

2 Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

http://tourofheaven.com/images/new-jerusalem/PC140549.jpg

I always thought it would be more pyramid shaped with each side being 1500 mile and the pinnacle 1500 miles high.

divaD
Mar 8th 2014, 05:36 PM
Why do you assume this is a literal city and not representative of the saints?


With that in mind consider the following.

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

If the city represents the saints does this verse then mean this? Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates OF THEMSELVES. How does that make sense?

Brother Paul
Mar 8th 2014, 05:52 PM
Consider Isaiah 65 and 66 insights to the New Earth

ChangedByHim
Mar 8th 2014, 07:39 PM
If the city is not the bride, why would an entire chapter be dedicated to describing it as the bride... especially when earlier John said it looked like a bride adorned for her husband? Why do you assume this is a literal city and not representative of the saints?

Then came one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues and spoke to me, saying, “Come, I will show you the Bride, the wife of the Lamb.” And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great, high mountain, and showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God, having the glory of God, its radiance like a most rare jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal. It had a great, high wall, with twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and on the gates the names of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel were inscribed— on the east three gates, on the north three gates, on the south three gates, and on the west three gates. And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

And the one who spoke with me had a measuring rod of gold to measure the city and its gates and walls. The city lies foursquare, its length the same as its width. And he measured the city with his rod, 12,000 stadia. Its length and width and height are equal. He also measured its wall, 144 cubits by human measurement, which is also an angel's measurement. The wall was built of jasper, while the city was pure gold, like clear glass. The foundations of the wall of the city were adorned with every kind of jewel. The first was jasper, the second sapphire, the third agate, the fourth emerald, the fifth onyx, the sixth carnelian, the seventh chrysolite, the eighth beryl, the ninth topaz, the tenth chrysoprase, the eleventh jacinth, the twelfth amethyst. And the twelve gates were twelve pearls, each of the gates made of a single pearl, and the street of the city was pure gold, like transparent glass.

And I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb. And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and its lamp is the Lamb. By its light will the nations walk, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it and its gates will never be shut by day—and there will be no night there. They will bring into it the glory and the honor of the nations. But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life. (Rev. 21:9-27)

We are His bride. We live in the city New Jerusalem. Therefore, New Jerusalem is His bride.

Sometimes the trees are blocking the forrest.

ChangedByHim
Mar 8th 2014, 07:41 PM
With that in mind consider the following.

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

If the city represents the saints does this verse then mean this? Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates OF THEMSELVES. How does that make sense?

We could just turn the whole Bible into symbolism if we wanted... What if Adam really just represented mankind and there wasn't really an Adam.... go through the whole Bible from there...

Aviyah
Mar 8th 2014, 08:17 PM
We are His bride. We live in the city New Jerusalem.

Why you assume the city is literal and not a symbol as with the rest of Revelation, was my question..

divaD
Mar 8th 2014, 08:20 PM
What if Adam really just represented mankind and there wasn't really an Adam.... go through the whole Bible from there...

The fact you mention that, and if I'm not mistaken, there are some on this board that have done exactly that. Don't recall any names at the moment, but I'm fairly certain I've witnessed this before.

divaD
Mar 8th 2014, 08:23 PM
Why you assume the city is literal and not a symbol as the rest of Revelation is filled with, was my question..

Using that logic, when the book of Revelation mentions Jesus Christ, such as it does in the first chapter, why would anyone then want to assume Jesus Christ is a literal person and not a symbol as the rest of Revelation is filled with?

Aviyah
Mar 8th 2014, 08:24 PM
Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates OF THEMSELVES. How does that make sense?

It doesn't, because that's not what I said.


Using that logic, when the book of Revelation mentions Jesus Christ, such as it does in the first chapter, why would anyone then want to assume Jesus Christ is a literal person and not a symbol as the rest of Revelation is filled with?

Because Jesus Christ is a literal person elsewhere in the Bible.

Do you think Jesus is a sheep with horns and seven eyes? Revelation says Jesus is a sheep with horns and seven eyes.

ChangedByHim
Mar 8th 2014, 08:25 PM
Why you assume the city is literal and not a symbol as with the rest of Revelation, was my question..

Who said that the rest of Revelation was a symbol? Not me. Not the Word.

Aviyah
Mar 8th 2014, 08:29 PM
Who said that the rest of Revelation was a symbol? Not me. Not the Word.

Do you think Jesus is a sheep with horns and seven eyes? If so, I guess this thread makes more sense.

divaD
Mar 8th 2014, 08:38 PM
Do you think Jesus is a sheep with horns?

Ummm...no. But I also don't think the new Jerusalem is a symbol for something else, the fact it's origins are in heaven, and that it is then seen descending from there.

Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

3 things happen to the overcomer. 1..I will write upon him the name of my God...2...and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God..3..and I will write upon him my new name.

Let's look at 2...which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God. When Jesus says my God in that passage, it is then obvious to me anyway that He is meaning the Father. That then means verse 12 is being understood like such...Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my FATHER, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my FATHER, and the name of the city of my FATHER, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my FATHER. Clearly then, the Father is the sole owner of this city, and that it solely originates from Him. Where does the Father dwell? In heaven. Where does verse 12 say the city comes from? which cometh down out of heaven from my God. How then do you make the city being representative of us, rather than this being where we will reside?

Aviyah
Mar 8th 2014, 08:44 PM
Ummm...no. But I also don't think the new Jerusalem is a symbol for something else, the fact it's origins are in heaven, and that it is then seen descending from there.

The Lamb with seven horns and seven eyes is in heaven, so why is it a symbol yet NJ is not?


Clearly then, the Father is the sole owner of this city, and that it solely originates from Him.

Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him. - 1 John 5:1


How then do you make the city being representative of us, rather than this being where we will reside?

Because the city itself is called the bride twice and the dimensions are absurd.

divaD
Mar 8th 2014, 08:49 PM
It doesn't, because that's not what I said.



.

What are you saying then? Whatever you think this city represents, it has to represent it in this verse as well. Here's what the verse says..

Revelation 22:14 Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. city.

Now fill in the following verse with what the city means to you, then see if the verse is still making sense.

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the BLANK.

Now fill in the blank. Keeping this in mind, the way I'm reading it, those that do His commandments, they're not the same entity as this city, because they get to enter into this city, and not that they are this city.

Aviyah
Mar 8th 2014, 08:59 PM
Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

"Those that follow God's commandments will be blessed, because they will have access to immortality by becoming one of His people."

Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates. Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood. (Rev. 22:14-15)

"The lost will not have access to immortality by becoming one of His people, because they sinned and did not repent."

brakelite
Mar 8th 2014, 09:17 PM
Has anyone considered the possibility that the church is not the bride, and the New Jerusalem, the true bride, a literal city representative of the kingdom? Consider the parable of the ten virgins. They are most certainly representative of the church, yet they are not the bride. They are guests. By the time the Bridegroom comes, He is already married, and it is the marriage supper that the five missed out on. It is the marriage supper (not the wedding ceremony itself) that throughout scripture is presented as being that event to which the church is invited. (See Luke 14, and Revel. 19:9) Also we could consider John 14:1-3.
Not making a hard and fast statement here, just offering more food for thought.

ChangedByHim
Mar 8th 2014, 09:55 PM
Do you think Jesus is a sheep with horns and seven eyes? If so, I guess this thread makes more sense.

You ask very illogical questions.

Aviyah
Mar 9th 2014, 12:05 AM
You ask very illogical questions.

Revelation says there is a mortally wounded Lamb in heaven with seven eyes and seven horns which is the only one capable of opening the seals of judgment (5:6). So do you think there is a literal lamb in heaven with seven eyes and seven horns, or do you realize this is symbolic for Jesus as the text itself says (5:5)? If the latter, why do you assume New Jerusalem is a literal cube in the sky (21:10) when the text itself says it is the bride of Christ (21:9)?

ChangedByHim
Mar 9th 2014, 12:10 AM
Revelation says there is a mortally wounded Lamb in heaven with seven eyes and seven horns which is the only one capable of opening the seals of judgment. So do you think there is a literal lamb in heaven with seven eyes and seven horns, or that this is symbolic for Jesus? If the latter, why do you assume New Jerusalem is a literal cube in the sky?
So if Jesus doesn't have horns then New Jerulsalem isn't a real city? If that's the way you interpret scripture so be it.

Aviyah
Mar 9th 2014, 12:16 AM
So if Jesus doesn't have horns then New Jerulsalem isn't a real city? If that's the way you interpret scripture so be it.

Now you're just being silly. Either you realize you're wrong and don't want to admit it, or you're not reading my posts at all.

Aviyah
Mar 9th 2014, 12:21 AM
Has anyone considered the possibility that the church is not the bride, and the New Jerusalem, the true bride, a literal city representative of the kingdom?

I doubt it, because Ephesians 5 compares human husbands & wives to Christ & the church:

Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands. Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. In the same way husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ does the church, because we are members of his body. “Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” This mystery is profound, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church. However, let each one of you love his wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband. (v22-33)

So I find it unlikely that "The Holy City," being called the bride twice and thoroughly described as being built upon the names of the 12 apostles, is anything other than a symbol of God's people (at the very least, it cannot be a literal city unless God plans to marry an inanimate object). God only describes Himself in a relationship with His people. Why this would suddenly change in a book of often self-explained symbols confuses me...

ChangedByHim
Mar 9th 2014, 12:48 AM
Now you're just being silly. Either you realize you're wrong and don't want to admit it, or you're not reading my posts at all.

Lol. I'm wrong that Jesus doesn't have 7 horns but the city in heaven is real? You are way beyond silly on this one.

Aviyah
Mar 9th 2014, 01:30 AM
Lol. I'm wrong that Jesus doesn't have 7 horns but the city in heaven is real?

I didn't say the city isn't real, I said the city isn't literal and instead represents the church because:

1) Revelation is filled with obvious symbolism, and when symbols appear in visions throughout the Bible, they are usually explained.
2) The angel does explain what the city is/represents (the bride of Christ), and this is repeated for emphasis.
3) The angel does not say (nor does John say) that anything other the city is the bride.
4) Ephesians 5 among some of Jesus's parables illustrate the church, not a city, as His bride.
5) An entire chapter is dedicated to describing the city, and it is shown to be built on foundations of the 12 apostles.
6) 22:14-15 says that the sinners are outside of it, and those that wash their robes are within and have access to the tree of life.
7) I do not believe God plans to marry an inanimate object with absurd dimensions.

What are your reasons for interpreting the city as literal, other than presupposition?

ChangedByHim
Mar 9th 2014, 02:09 PM
Aviyah, what's your definition of a "real" city that is not "literal?"

divaD
Mar 9th 2014, 05:01 PM
Aviyah, what's your definition of a "real" city that is not "literal?"

That's an excellent question IMO. To me it would be like saying satan is a real dragon that is not literal, instead of correctly saying satan is not a real dragon and is not literal. Maybe it's just me, but if something is real, yet not literal, isn't that like a contradiction or something? It's still early in the day, but off the top of my head I can't think of anything that would be real but not literal.

Balabusha
Mar 9th 2014, 05:11 PM
That's an excellent question IMO. To me it would be like saying satan is a real dragon that is not literal, instead of correctly saying satan is not a real dragon and is not literal. Maybe it's just me, but if something is real, yet not literal, isn't that like a contradiction or something? It's still early in the day, but off the top of my head I can't think of anything that would be real but not literal. Not at all, Satan is described as a snake, and a dragon, and this imagery is to describe what Satan IS like and not what Satan LOOKS like. Jesus with the 7 eyes is not used to describe that Jesus has 7 eyes, but that Jesus is all seeing

Aviyah
Mar 9th 2014, 06:34 PM
Aviyah, what's your definition of a "real" city that is not "literal?"

What the vision represents is real, but the symbol itself is not real.

In Nebuchadnezzar's dream, the statue composed of different metals was not literal - but the empires which the metals represented were/are real.

In Daniel's vision of the four beasts, the beasts were not literal - but the entities which the beasts represented were/are real.

In Jesus's parable, the farmer and seeds were not literal - but God and His Word which the farmer and seeds represent is real.

In Revelation, the Lamb with seven horns and seven eyes is not literal - but Jesus Christ whom the lamb represents is real.

In John's vision, the Holy City is not literal - but the Bride of Christ, God's people, whom the City represents is real.

divaD
Mar 9th 2014, 07:33 PM
Not at all, Satan is described as a snake, and a dragon, and this imagery is to describe what Satan IS like and not what Satan LOOKS like. Jesus with the 7 eyes is not used to describe that Jesus has 7 eyes, but that Jesus is all seeing

I agree with this, yet I fail to see how this makes the new Jerusalem not a literal city.

ChangedByHim
Mar 9th 2014, 08:30 PM
What the vision represents is real, but the symbol itself is not real.

In Nebuchadnezzar's dream, the statue composed of different metals was not literal - but the empires which the metals represented were/are real.

In Daniel's vision of the four beasts, the beasts were not literal - but the entities which the beasts represented were/are real.

In Jesus's parable, the farmer and seeds were not literal - but God and His Word which the farmer and seeds represent is real.

In Revelation, the Lamb with seven horns and seven eyes is not literal - but Jesus Christ whom the lamb represents is real.

In John's vision, the Holy City is not literal - but the Bride of Christ, God's people, whom the City represents is real.

What exactly about the description of the city makes you think it's not literal? The walls? The river? The streets? The throne? The precious jewels? Which one doesn't pass the test to be considered literal?

Where will we be, if not there?

Aviyah
Mar 9th 2014, 09:07 PM
What exactly about the description of the city makes you think it's not literal?

Well, I have given you 7 reasons already; but the fact that it is called the bride of Christ twice (and nothing else is), takes up a whole chapter to describe, and is built on the foundations of the 12 apostles are the most convincing that it represents the church/God's people.

You still haven't given me a reason why you think the city is literal, though.


Where will we be, if not there?

Are you saying we need to be contained somewhere, rather than able to live freely on the Earth as originally intended? This seems contradictory to God's plan in Genesis for humans to "fill the Earth and subdue it," and it also conflicts with His motives in forcing us to spread out from the city of Babel by creating multiple languages. IMO, we will be exploring Earth and building cities not kept in one city forever.

Aviyah
Mar 9th 2014, 09:29 PM
I agree with this, yet I fail to see how this makes the new Jerusalem not a literal city.

The city John saw in a vision is called the bride of Christ, twice. The New Testament (ie: Eph. 5) indicates that the bride is the church. How much more evidence do you need?

ChangedByHim
Mar 9th 2014, 09:43 PM
Well, I have given you 7 reasons already; but the fact that it is called the bride of Christ twice (and nothing else is), takes up a whole chapter to describe, and is built on the foundations of the 12 apostles are the most convincing that it represents the church/God's people.

You still haven't given me a reason why you think the city is literal, though.



Are you saying we need to be contained somewhere, rather than able to live freely on the Earth as originally intended? This seems contradictory to God's plan in Genesis for humans to "fill the Earth and subdue it," and it also conflicts with His motives in forcing us to spread out from the city of Babel by creating multiple languages. IMO, we will be exploring Earth and building cities not kept in one city forever.
A reason? How about the literal description including measurements? Is that reason enough?

I hardly think of living in New Jerusalem as being contained lol.


You are simply looking for reasons to change, to spiritualize,what has been written. And I am not. I believe what I do because it is plainly written. To compare this with Jesus having 7 horns is not rightly dividing the Word IMO.

Aviyah
Mar 9th 2014, 09:57 PM
A reason? How about the literal description including measurements? Is that reason enough?

No, because descriptions of vision do not prove the vision is of something literal. The Lamb in heaven is given descriptions of seven eyes and seven horns, so therefore the Lamb is literal? Neb's statue is given descriptions of the types of metal composing it, so therefore the statue is literal? Daniel's vision includes descriptions of real life animals, so therefore the beasts are literal? A symbol, allegory, or parable needs a description to BE a symbol, allegory, or parable. Ex:

And Joseph said unto him, This is the interpretation of it: The three branches are three days: (Gen. 40:12)
And Joseph answered and said, This is the interpretation thereof: The three baskets are three days: (Gen. 40:18)
The seven good cows are seven years, and the seven good heads of grain are seven years; it is one and the same dream. (Gen. 41:26)
The two-horned ram that you saw represents the kings of Media and Persia. (Dan. 8:20)


I hardly think of living in New Jerusalem as being contained lol.

If we spend eternity in a walled city separating us from the rest of creation, we will be contained by definition.


You are simply looking for reasons to change, to spiritualize,what has been written.

I'm not looking for anything. Interpreting the city as the bride is not an inference, it is exactly what the text says (twice even). All 7 of my reasons are based on the Bible, aside from the 7th which is an appeal to common sense.

1) Revelation is filled with obvious symbolism, and when symbols appear in visions throughout the Bible, they are usually explained.
2) The angel does explain what the city is/represents (the bride of Christ), and this is repeated for emphasis.
3) The angel does not say (nor does John say) that anything other the city is the bride.
4) Ephesians 5 among some of Jesus's parables illustrate the church, not a city, as His bride.
5) An entire chapter is dedicated to describing the city, and it is shown to be built on foundations of the 12 apostles.
6) 22:14-15 says that the sinners are outside of it, and those that wash their robes are within and have access to the tree of life.
7) I do not believe God plans to marry an inanimate object with absurd dimensions.


To compare this with Jesus having 7 horns is not rightly dividing the Word IMO.

I use the Lamb in heaven as an example of God using self-explanatory figurative language/symbolism to make a point or illustrate a concept. Revelation may not always explain its symbols, but both the Lamb and the City are explained... so there is absolutely no excuse to take either literally; certainly not when the main reason for doing so is pure conjecture.

It sounds like you and others assume the city is literal because you've already decided it is literal, not because you take the text into account.

uric3
Mar 9th 2014, 10:18 PM
A reason? How about the literal description including measurements? Is that reason enough?

I hardly think of living in New Jerusalem as being contained lol.


You are simply looking for reasons to change, to spiritualize,what has been written. And I am not. I believe what I do because it is plainly written. To compare this with Jesus having 7 horns is not rightly dividing the Word IMO.

I have to agree that it isn't a literal city... all of Revelation is symbolic... myself I have always thought of it like this. John is seeing a spiritual place and things that he can't possibly describe, so he uses symbols to show us the various things he saw. At the start Revelation he lets us know that... by telling us what the seven candlesticks represent, what the seven stars represent etc. Others are not called out so easily in the text.

To me when I read about the city of New Jersualm I see John describing it using terms we understand. Thus I don't think its literal streets of gold, or walls made of various gems but, that its was so beautiful and he was in such awe about it that he uses terms we can understand by what we consider precious and beautiful to describe it. Thus the city which we will inherit is something we can't truly comprehend but in human terms we can understand how beautiful and grand it will be.

As for the dimensions I think its to let us know that there is plenty of room for all. I think the gates and walls are there to let us know that God will protect us.

Maybe I'm wrong but I think John was trying his best to describe this wonderful place using terms we could understand... I image it to be more grand than described because John was limited with the words to truly describe something of a spiritual nature.

divaD
Mar 9th 2014, 10:27 PM
I have to agree that it isn't a literal city... all of Revelation is symbolic... myself I have always thought of it like this. John is seeing a spiritual place and things that he can't possibly describe, so he uses symbols to show us the various things he saw. At the start Revelation he lets us know that... by telling us what the seven candlesticks represent, what the seven stars represent etc. Others are not called out so easily in the text.

To me when I read about the city of New Jersualm I see John describing it using terms we understand. Thus I don't think its literal streets of gold, or walls made of various gems but, that its was so beautiful and he was in such awe about it that he uses terms we can understand by what we consider precious and beautiful to describe it. Thus the city is which we will inherit is something we can't truly comprehend but in human terms we understand how beautiful and grand it will be.

As for the dimensions I think its to let us know that there is plenty of room for all. I think the gates and walls are there to let us know that God will protect us.

Maybe I'm wrong but I think John was trying his best to describe this wonderful place using terms we could understand... I image it to be more grand than described because John was limited with the words to truly describe something of a spiritual nature.

First you say it is not a literal city, then you say you think John was trying his best to describe this wonderful place using terms we could understand..the keyword being 'place'. A place is where someone dwells, a place is not what someone is. So if this place is not a literal city, what is this place then, the fact it's seen descending out of heaven from God, which logically has to mean it's destination is earth, since that's where man has been dwelling since the beginning of creation, or should I say, since the 6th day of creation?

ChangedByHim
Mar 9th 2014, 10:50 PM
I have to agree that it isn't a literal city... all of Revelation is symbolic... myself I have always thought of it like this. John is seeing a spiritual place and things that he can't possibly describe, so he uses symbols to show us the various things he saw. At the start Revelation he lets us know that... by telling us what the seven candlesticks represent, what the seven stars represent etc. Others are not called out so easily in the text.

To me when I read about the city of New Jersualm I see John describing it using terms we understand. Thus I don't think its literal streets of gold, or walls made of various gems but, that its was so beautiful and he was in such awe about it that he uses terms we can understand by what we consider precious and beautiful to describe it. Thus the city which we will inherit is something we can't truly comprehend but in human terms we can understand how beautiful and grand it will be.

As for the dimensions I think its to let us know that there is plenty of room for all. I think the gates and walls are there to let us know that God will protect us.

Maybe I'm wrong but I think John was trying his best to describe this wonderful place using terms we could understand... I image it to be more grand than described because John was limited with the words to truly describe something of a spiritual nature.

If all of revelation is symbolic then Jesus isn't coming back. That's a sad theology.

ChangedByHim
Mar 9th 2014, 10:54 PM
It sounds like you and others assume the city is literal because you've already decided it is literal, not because you take the text into account.

Well if I'm not mistaken, you believe that the torments of hell are not literal either. So I think that reveals a little something about how you choose to view these things.

I choose to believe the Bible literally, where it can be taken literally and symbolically when it is obviously symbolic.

Do you believe that Jesus is physically coming back to the earth?

divaD
Mar 9th 2014, 10:55 PM
The city John saw in a vision is called the bride of Christ, twice. The New Testament (ie: Eph. 5) indicates that the bride is the church. How much more evidence do you need?

It's not that that I'm arguing against. It's that Revelation 21 and 22 is describing the new Jerusalem as a place, and not as a person or persons. For example..the following still referring to new Jerusalem.

Revelation 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:

IOW...In the midst of the street of NEW JERUSALEM, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in NEW JERUSALEM; and his servants shall serve him:

Did you notice the last part? but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in NEW JERUSALEM; and his servants shall serve him. Where does his servants serve Him? Apparently in New Jerusalem since that's where the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be.

Then we have things like the following.

Revelation 21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.


IOW...And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of NEW JERUSALEM: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into NEW JERUSALEM.
And the gates of NEW JERUSALEM shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night IN NEW JERUSALEM.
And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into NEW JERUSALEM.

Clearly a place. And anyone should know people and places aren't the same thing, and that places are where people dwell.

Aviyah
Mar 9th 2014, 11:04 PM
Examples of self-explained symbols in Revelation

1:19-20 Write therefore the things that you have seen, those that are and those that are to take place after this. As for the mystery of the seven stars that you saw in my right hand, and the seven golden lampstands, the seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches.

4:5 From the throne came flashes of lightning, and rumblings and peals of thunder, and before the throne were burning seven torches of fire, which are the seven spirits of God.

5:5-6 And one of the elders said to me, “Weep no more; behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has conquered, so that he can open the scroll and its seven seals.” And between the throne and the four living creatures and among the elders I saw a Lamb standing, as though it had been slain, with seven horns and with seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth.

5:8 And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

6:8 And I looked, and behold, a pale horse! And its rider's name was Death, and Hades followed him. And they were given authority over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by wild beasts of the earth.

7:13-14 Then one of the elders addressed me, saying, “Who are these, clothed in white robes, and from where have they come?” I said to him, “Sir, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

11:3-4 And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.” These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth.

11:8 And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city that symbolically is called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was crucified.

12:3, 9 And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads seven diadems.... And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

12:17 Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

13:18 This calls for wisdom: let the one who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man, and his number is 666.

14:3-5 No one could learn that song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. It is these who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are virgins. It is these who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. These have been redeemed from mankind as firstfruits for God and the Lamb, and in their mouth no lie was found, for they are blameless.

14:19 So the angel swung his sickle across the earth and gathered the grape harvest of the earth and threw it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

16:1 Then I heard a loud voice from the temple telling the seven angels, “Go and pour out on the earth the seven bowls of the wrath of God.”

16:13-14 And I saw, coming out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits like frogs. For they are demonic spirits, performing signs, who go abroad to the kings of the whole world, to assemble them for battle on the great day of God the Almighty.

17:5-6 And on her forehead was written a name of mystery: “Babylon the great, mother of prostitutes and of earth's abominations.” And I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of the martyrs of Jesus.

17:9-10 This calls for a mind with wisdom: the seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman is seated; they are also seven kings, five of whom have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come, and when he does come he must remain only a little while.

17:12 And the ten horns that you saw are ten kings who have not yet received royal power, but they are to receive authority as kings for one hour, together with the beast.

17:15 And the angel said to me, “The waters that you saw, where the prostitute is seated, are peoples and multitudes and nations and languages.

17:18 And the woman that you saw is the great city that has dominion over the kings of the earth.”

18:21 Then a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone and threw it into the sea, saying, “So will Babylon the great city be thrown down with violence, and will be found no more;"

19:7-8 Let us rejoice and exult and give him the glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and his Bride has made herself ready; it was granted her to clothe herself with fine linen, bright and pure” — for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints.

(If the Bride is clothed with the righteous deeds of the saints, then the Bride is the saints).

20:2 And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years,

20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

21:3, 9-10 And I saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.... Then came one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues and spoke to me, saying, “Come, I will show you the Bride, the wife of the Lamb.” And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great, high mountain, and showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God,"



Summary



7 stars = The angels of the 7 churches
7 lampstands = The 7 churches
7 torches of fire = The 7 spirits of God
The Lamb = The Root of David (Jesus)
7 horns and 7 eyes of the Lamb = The 7 spirits of God sent out
Golden bowls of incense = The prayers of the saints
The Rider & Pale Horse = Death & Hades
The ones in white robes = Those coming out of tribulation
2 olive trees and 2 lampstands = The 2 witnesses
Sodom & Egypt = Where God was crucified
The red dragon = Satan
The offspring of the Woman = Christians
666 = The number of the beast = The number of a man
The 144,000 = Those who follow Christ
The Great Winepress = The Wrath of God
The 7 Bowls = The Wrath of God
Frogs = Demons
The woman riding the beast = "Babylon" the city which rules the Earth
7 Heads = 7 mountains & 7 kings
10 Horns = 10 kings
The waters = Humanity
The millstone in the sea = Babylon destroyed
The Bride of the Lamb = The Saints
Fine linen and clothing = Righteous deeds of the saints
The lake of fire = the second death
New Jerusalem / The Holy City = The Bride of the Lamb = The Saints

ChangedByHim
Mar 9th 2014, 11:10 PM
The bride is the inhabitants of the city, not the walls and streets. This does not take away from the literalness of the actual city. As is stated, some verses have obvious symbolism. That's why we RIGHTLY DIVIDE the Word... So we can know the difference.

divaD
Mar 9th 2014, 11:17 PM
Let's take this verse for instance.

Revelation 21:25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.


The keyword I want to focus on is 'there'..the word at the end of the verse.

This same Greek word is used in the following verse and is rendered 'place'.

Matthew 17:20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place(same Greek word used for 'there' in Revelation 21:25) ; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

divaD
Mar 9th 2014, 11:24 PM
[CENTER]

21:3, 9-10 And I saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.... Then came one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues and spoke to me, saying, “Come, I will show you the Bride, the wife of the Lamb.” And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great, high mountain, and showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God,"


IMO, this last part can be explained in Revelation 19.

Revelation 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.


When the city arrives it already contains the bride.

So when John says the following in chapter 21...Revelation 21:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife...it's because the bride is already in the city according to Revelation 19 before it touches down, which I personally tend to think can be explained by meeting the Lord in the air at the last trump..

Aviyah
Mar 9th 2014, 11:25 PM
The bride is the inhabitants of the city,

Show me that in the text. I've looked at all the major translations for 21:2, 9-11 and there is no indication that the bride refers to anything but the city.

And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. (ESV)
And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. (NASB)
And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. (KJV)
I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. (NIV)
And I John saw the holy city new Jerusalem come down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride trimmed for her husband. (GNV 1599)

Then came one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues and spoke to me, saying, “Come, I will show you the Bride, the wife of the Lamb.” And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great, high mountain, and showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God, having the glory of God, its radiance like a most rare jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal. (ESV)

Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and spoke with me, saying, “Come here, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.” And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, having the glory of God. Her brilliance was like a very costly stone, as a stone of crystal-clear jasper. (NASB)

And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal; (KJV)

One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.” And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God. It shone with the glory of God, and its brilliance was like that of a very precious jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal. (NIV)

And there came unto me one of the seven Angels, which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come: I will show thee the bride the Lamb’s wife. And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and an high mountain, and he showed me that great city, that holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, having the glory of God, and her shining was like unto a stone most precious, as a jasper stone clear as crystal, (GNV 1599)


When the city arrives it already contains the bride.

Show me where God or the angel says the bride is inside the city, and is not itself the bride.

divaD
Mar 9th 2014, 11:34 PM
Show me that in the text.

And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. (21:2)



Show me where God or the angel says the bride is inside the city, and is not itself the bride.

How about instead, you logically show how a place is a person or persons. Show how 'there' at the end of Revelation 21:25 is describing people and not a place. IMO you're the one that has some explaining to do since I don't see your conclusions being logical.

Aviyah
Mar 9th 2014, 11:51 PM
How about instead, you logically show how a place is a person or persons.

How is a branch a day? How is a cow a year? How is a piece of metal an empire? How is Jesus a small animal? How is death a horse? How are demons frogs? How are horns kings? How is God a farmer? How is a torch a spirit? How is a different woman a place (Babylon)?

If God wants to illustrate the Bride as a city, that is His prerogative. Symbolism works that way, and I've already shown why it represents God's people - not only because that's what the text explicitly says, but because the church is alluded to as a bride throughout the NT, and it is founded on the 12 apostles.

Now show me where God or the angel says the Bride is inside the city rather her being the city itself per 21:2 and 21:9-10. All you have to do is cite the Bible and my position will change - that's how I go about Biblical interpretations (especially regarding the most symbolic book in the whole collection).

jeffweeder
Mar 10th 2014, 12:20 AM
Where, in the verses that follow, are we shown the Bride?

Rev 21 :9
Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and spoke with me, saying, “Come here, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.”

10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, 11 having the glory of God. Her brilliance was like a very costly stone, as a stone of crystal-clear jasper. ..........

In Christ is the place to be and the place prepared.
From our innermost being will flow living water, bearing all manner of good fruit.

ChangedByHim
Mar 10th 2014, 12:47 AM
Show me that in the text. I've looked at all the major translations for 21:2, 9-11 and there is no indication that the bride refers to anything but the city.


Tell me... was Jesus talking about the architecture of Jerusalem here?

“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! (Matthew 23:37 NKJV)

Aviyah
Mar 10th 2014, 12:48 AM
Tell me... was Jesus talking about the architecture of Jerusalem here?

“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! (Matthew 23:37 NKJV)

Lol, doesn't this prove that Jerusalem and cities do not always mean the literal cities? This is yet another example of personification, which is exactly what I am saying Revelation employs in 21:2 and 21:9-10. How does this prove your case that the holy city is literal?

jeffweeder
Mar 10th 2014, 01:04 AM
I have to agree that it isn't a literal city... all of Revelation is symbolic... myself I have always thought of it like this. John is seeing a spiritual place and things that he can't possibly describe, so he uses symbols to show us the various things he saw. At the start Revelation he lets us know that... by telling us what the seven candlesticks represent, what the seven stars represent etc. Others are not called out so easily in the text.

To me when I read about the city of New Jersualm I see John describing it using terms we understand. Thus I don't think its literal streets of gold, or walls made of various gems but, that its was so beautiful and he was in such awe about it that he uses terms we can understand by what we consider precious and beautiful to describe it. Thus the city which we will inherit is something we can't truly comprehend but in human terms we can understand how beautiful and grand it will be.

As for the dimensions I think its to let us know that there is plenty of room for all. I think the gates and walls are there to let us know that God will protect us.

Maybe I'm wrong but I think John was trying his best to describe this wonderful place using terms we could understand... I image it to be more grand than described because John was limited with the words to truly describe something of a spiritual nature.

I see it this way also....well put.

Jesus is the living cornrstone, and we are living stones being built up into a Spiritual house / city.:)

ChangedByHim
Mar 10th 2014, 01:05 AM
Lol, doesn't this prove that Jerusalem and cities do not always mean the literal cities? This is yet another example of personification, which is exactly what I am saying Revelation employs in 21:2 and 21:9-10. How does this prove your case that the holy city is literal?
Lol. Was Jerusalem real??? Yet when her referred to Jerusalem, He was talking about the people. You refuse to believe in a literal heaven and hell.

I really don't feel the need to type out long rebuttals because I'm not sure I've ever seen anyone change their position about anything on this board, in spite of long and countless rebuttals. If it makes you happy, then believe it :)

Aviyah
Mar 10th 2014, 01:07 AM
Lol. Was Jerusalem real??? Yet when her referred to Jerusalem, He was talking about the people.

So.... why does the New Jerusalem not represent the people (The Bride)... even when it says so?

ChangedByHim
Mar 10th 2014, 02:17 AM
So.... why does the New Jerusalem not represent the people (The Bride)... even when it says so?

Seems like we're talking in circles... We are the bride. We live in New Jerusalem. God's throne is among us.

Do you believe that the new heaven and new earth are also symbolic?

Aviyah
Mar 10th 2014, 02:30 AM
We are the bride. We live in New Jerusalem.

Where does the text say the bride is inside New Jerusalem? That's all I am asking.

If you can't show where it says this, why do you believe it?


Do you believe that the new heaven and new earth are also symbolic?

No because it does not say the new heaven and new earth represent anything, and they are mentioned elsewhere as literal in the Bible (ie: Isaiah 66) - whereas it does say New Jerusalem represents the Bride.

ChangedByHim
Mar 10th 2014, 02:31 AM
Where does the text say the bride is inside New Jerusalem?



No because it does not say the new heaven and new earth represent anything, and they are mentioned elsewhere as literal in the Bible (ie: Isaiah 66) - whereas it does say New Jerusalem represents the Bride.
Where does the text say that the description is symbolic? I know that the bride is the church because the NT says so. It's called allowing scripture to interpret scripture.

Aviyah
Mar 10th 2014, 02:54 AM
Where does the text say that the description is symbolic?

19:7-8 Let us rejoice and exult and give him the glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and his Bride has made herself ready; it was granted her to clothe herself with fine linen, bright and pure” — for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints.

21:3, 9-10 And I saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.... Then came one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues and spoke to me, saying, “Come, I will show you the Bride, the wife of the Lamb.” And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great, high mountain, and showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God,"


It's called allowing scripture to interpret scripture.

Good idea.

Where does Scripture say the Bride is inside the city?

ChangedByHim
Mar 10th 2014, 04:33 AM
19:7-8 Let us rejoice and exult and give him the glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and his Bride has made herself ready; it was granted her to clothe herself with fine linen, bright and pure” — for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints.

21:3, 9-10 And I saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.... Then came one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues and spoke to me, saying, “Come, I will show you the Bride, the wife of the Lamb.” And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great, high mountain, and showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God,"



Good idea.

Where does Scripture say the Bride is inside the city?

Your verses simply confirm my position.

Well I don't know where you're planning to go but I'm going to heaven. Then after the millennial reign (a literal 1000 years), heaven's city, New Jerusalem, is coming down from God out of heaven. That is where I will dwell.

Aviyah
Mar 10th 2014, 04:52 AM
Your verses simply confirm my position.

Well I don't know where you're planning to go but I'm going to heaven. Then after the millennial reign (a literal 1000 years), heaven's city, New Jerusalem, is coming down from God out of heaven. That is where I will dwell.

Lol, OK.⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣

ChangedByHim
Mar 10th 2014, 04:35 PM
Lol, OK.⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣

Exactly................

Curtis
Mar 10th 2014, 04:42 PM
Quote Originally Posted by ChangedByHim View Post
Your verses simply confirm my position.

Well I don't know where you're planning to go but I'm going to heaven. Then after the millennial reign (a literal 1000 years), heaven's city, New Jerusalem, is coming down from God out of heaven. That is where I will dwell.

CBH, I will meet you at the front gate, and show you all my favorite hot spots.

Heb 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering,
Heb 12:23 and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,
Heb 12:24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

John 8:32
Mar 10th 2014, 04:55 PM
Consider Isaiah 65 and 66 insights to the New Earth

The Millenium prior to New Jerusalem coming to the earth.

John 8:32
Mar 10th 2014, 05:00 PM
The city John saw in a vision is called the bride of Christ, twice. The New Testament (ie: Eph. 5) indicates that the bride is the church. How much more evidence do you need?

We speak of New York and any other town or city when talking about the inhabitants. Christ spoke of Jerusalem in the same manner...

Mat 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!

Was it the buildings and streets that killed the inhabitants? Or was it the people dwelling there? Yet Jerusalem is a literal city.

John 8:32
Mar 10th 2014, 05:04 PM
How about instead, you logically show how a place is a person or persons. Show how 'there' at the end of Revelation 21:25 is describing people and not a place. IMO you're the one that has some explaining to do since I don't see your conclusions being logical.

Describing both. The city and the inhabitants.

Vakeros
Mar 10th 2014, 05:51 PM
Let's take this verse for instance.
Revelation 21:25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
The keyword I want to focus on is 'there'..the word at the end of the verse.
This same Greek word is used in the following verse and is rendered 'place'.
Matthew 17:20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place(same Greek word used for 'there' in Revelation 21:25) ; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.
Let me give you a couple of verses to help you see things logically:
2Co 3:17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.
The word "there" is the same word as found in Rev 21 and Matt 17.
Is this word speaking of a physical place, a spiritual place, or a metaphorical place?

Heb 7:8 And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.
Heb 7:8 In the one case tithes are received by mortal men, but in the other case, by one of whom it is testified that he lives.
Again we have the word "there" - so is it a physical, spiritual or metaphorical place?

Now I used to think that New Jerusalem was a physical city. I then thought that maybe New Jerusalem is the adornment of the Bride. I tied it into the place that Jesus prepares for us.
But one thing that I realised I need to be consistent about is this:
A symbol speaks of a reality, but the symbol isn't the reality.
So when Rev speaks of Satan as the dragon - it doesn't speak of a real (that is physical) dragon, but rather that it is a picture of what Satan is like. The symbol shows a truth that maybe won't be comprehended without the picture.
We see this throughout scripture (and not just Apocalyptic scripture either).

Can the Bride of Christ be described as a building? Well yes it is - multiple times. Is that then a place, well yes it is. But is it a physical place or something else.
We collectively are the place where He is in the midst of us (Matt 18:20)
We collectively are His temple (1 Cor 3:16 & 17)
Better yet are words that speak of a similar picture:
2Co 6:16 What agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; as God said, "I will make my dwelling among them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people."
Here Paul clearly writes that God will dwell among us. In exactly the same way that we are the Temple of God, so too are we the New Jerusalem. Notice the similarity of words that Pual writes and John:
Rev 21:3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God.
Do you see the same picture?
In England we have the story of Dick Whittington who thought the streets of London were paved with gold. He found out it wasn't true, but simply a metaphor.

What we should consider are what the aspects of the New Jerusalem teaches us -
Rev 21:11 having the glory of God, its radiance like a most rare jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal.
Rev 21:12 It had a great, high wall, with twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and on the gates the names of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel were inscribed—
Rev 21:13 on the east three gates, on the north three gates, on the south three gates, and on the west three gates.
Rev 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

Here we see the way of entering the promised land is through a son of Israel, and the foundations of the city being the apostles. Again we have that exact same teaching:
Eph 2:19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,
Eph 2:20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone,
Eph 2:21 in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord.

Notice again it is an edifice being built with the foundation of the apostles and prophets with Jesus being the cornerstone!

We are told that we have the glory of God, like jasper clear as crystal - I am sure you are capable of finding the relevant scripture that fits this description.
Rev 21:19 The foundations of the wall of the city were adorned with every kind of jewel. The first was jasper, the second sapphire, the third agate, the fourth emerald,
Rev 21:20 the fifth onyx, the sixth carnelian, the seventh chrysolite, the eighth beryl, the ninth topaz, the tenth chrysoprase, the eleventh jacinth, the twelfth amethyst.
Notice the precious stones - this tells us of two things:
1) The priesthood - read the following
Exo 28:17 You shall set in it four rows of stones. A row of sardius, topaz, and carbuncle shall be the first row;
Exo 28:18 and the second row an emerald, a sapphire, and a diamond;
Exo 28:19 and the third row a jacinth, an agate, and an amethyst;
Exo 28:20 and the fourth row a beryl, an onyx, and a jasper. They shall be set in gold filigree.
Again note that these are set in gold.
2) What do we know about these precious stones? They are on the breastplate, these precious stones are the ones on which He inscribes our names.

What about the living stream?
Well we know that this is to flow from out of us. We are to bring His healing to the nations.

So as we read this, we are being told that God is actually NOT building a mansion of brick and mortar, or even out of gold, but actually it is what He is doing in and through us.
We will reach our fulfilment upon the defeat of the final enemy (Death).

He is coming again, and we shall be glorified and we shall dwell with Him (or Him with us) for eternity.

Aviyah
Mar 10th 2014, 06:31 PM
The Millenium prior to New Jerusalem coming to the earth.

Isaiah 66 is a description of Hell-Gehenna.


Describing both. The city and the inhabitants.

Nope. The city is being described. You want it to describe "the inhabitants" because you have already decided the city is literal, which has resulted in a logically fallacious position claiming that the city is simultaneously literal and not literal.

And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Then came one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues and spoke to me, saying, “Come, I will show you the Bride, the wife of the Lamb.” And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great, high mountain, and showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God, having the glory of God, its [The Holy City] radiance like a most rare jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal. It [The Holy City] had a great, high wall, with twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and on the gates the names of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel were inscribed— on the east three gates, on the north three gates, on the south three gates, and on the west three gates. And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

And the one who spoke with me had a measuring rod of gold to measure the city and its [The Holy City] gates and walls. The city lies foursquare, its [The Holy City] length the same as its width. And he measured the city with his rod, 12,000 stadia. Its [The Holy City] length and width and height are equal. He also measured its [The Holy City] wall, 144 cubits by human measurement, which is also an angel's measurement. The wall was built of jasper, while the city was pure gold, like clear glass. The foundations of the wall of the city were adorned with every kind of jewel. The first was jasper, the second sapphire, the third agate, the fourth emerald, the fifth onyx, the sixth carnelian, the seventh chrysolite, the eighth beryl, the ninth topaz, the tenth chrysoprase, the eleventh jacinth, the twelfth amethyst. And the twelve gates were twelve pearls, each of the gates made of a single pearl, and the street of the city was pure gold, like transparent glass.

Obviously the city itself is the bride adorned for the husband (hence the rare gems, precious metals, glass, and lengthy description), and therefore it is NOT LITERAL unless Jesus is going to marry an inanimate object.

Aviyah
Mar 10th 2014, 07:56 PM
New Jerusalem Parallels with The Church (God's People)



Both are illustrated as "the Bride of the Lamb" prepared for marriage.

The Church:
Then I heard what seemed to be the voice of a great multitude, like the roar of many waters and like the sound of mighty peals of thunder, crying out, “Hallelujah! For the Lord our God the Almighty reigns. Let us rejoice and exult and give him the glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and his Bride has made herself ready; it was granted her to clothe herself with fine linen, bright and pure”— for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints. (Rev. 19:6-8, also see Ephesians 5)

New Jerusalem:
And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband.... Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and spoke with me, saying, “Come here, I will show you the Bride, the wife of the Lamb.” And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, having the glory of God. Her brilliance was like a very costly stone, as a stone of crystal-clear jasper. (Rev. 21:2, 9-11)

Both are built on foundations of the apostles.

The Church:
So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. (Eph. 2:19-21)

New Jerusalem:
And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. (Rev. 21:14)

Both are the dwelling place of God.

The Church:
In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit. (Eph. 2:22)

New Jerusalem:
And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. (Rev. 21:3)

Both always walk in the light.

The Church:
This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. If we claim to have fellowship with him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live out the truth. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin. (1 John 1:5-7)

New Jerusalem:
And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and its lamp is the Lamb. By its light will the nations walk, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it, and its gates will never be shut by day—and there will be no night there. (Rev. 21:23-25)

Both always walk in purity.

The Church:
But the path of the righteous is like the light of dawn, which shines brighter and brighter until full day. (Pv. 4:18)

New Jerusalem:
...and the street of the city was pure gold, like transparent glass. (Rev. 21:21)

Both posses the Holy Spirit within.

The Church:
Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.” By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified. (John 7:38-39)

New Jerusalem:
Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, bright as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb (Rev. 22:1)

Both posses eternal life and produce fruit.

The Church:
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life. (1 John 5:13)
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. (Gal 5:22-24)

New Jerusalem:
Also, on either side of the river, the tree of life with its twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit each month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. (Rev. 22:2)

Both are built on precious stones.

The Church:
As you come to him, a living stone rejected by men but in the sight of God chosen and precious, you yourselves like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. (1 Pt. 2:4-5)

New Jerusalem:
The foundations of the city walls were decorated with every kind of precious stone. The first foundation was jasper, the second sapphire, the third agate, the fourth emerald, the fifth onyx, the sixth ruby, the seventh chrysolite, the eighth beryl, the ninth topaz, the tenth turquoise, the eleventh jacinth, and the twelfth amethyst. (Rev. 21:19-20)

Both have a dimension of 144,000.

The Church:
No one could learn that song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. It is these who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are virgins. It is these who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. These have been redeemed from mankind as first-fruits for God and the Lamb, and in their mouth no lie was found, for they are blameless. (Rev. 14:2-5)

New Jerusalem:
And the one who spoke with me had a measuring rod of gold to measure the city and its gates and walls. The city lies foursquare, its length the same as its width. And he measured the city with his rod, 12,000 stadia. (Rev. 21:16) [The area is 144,000]


There are a few other similarities I can find, but I'd rather not post them until I've found Scripture which states it plainly as with the above 9.

ChangedByHim
Mar 10th 2014, 08:19 PM
Many places in the Word there are both spiritual AND literal fulfillment of prophecy. You are simply choosing one to the exclusion of the other. I am embracing both.

The streets will really be gold. There will really be a river. There will really be a tree of life.

Aviyah
Mar 10th 2014, 08:25 PM
Many places in the Word there are both spiritual AND literal fulfillment of prophecy.

If Revelation 21 is simultaneously literal and figurative, then God will literally marry an inanimate object. On what basis have you decided that New Jerusalem is literal? I am trying to give you an opportunity to make your best case so that I and anyone reading can make an informed decision.

Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so. (Acts 17:11)

ChangedByHim
Mar 10th 2014, 08:53 PM
If Revelation 21 is simultaneously literal and figurative, then God will literally marry an inanimate object. On what basis have you decided that New Jerusalem is literal? I am trying to give you an opportunity to make your best case so that I and anyone reading can make an informed decision.

Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so. (Acts 17:11)
No....... you simply refuse to give credence to anyone posting in here that doesn't arrive at your view.

In your world, you have zero idea of what heaven will be like... in mine, I know what is waiting on me...

Aviyah
Mar 10th 2014, 09:01 PM
No....... you simply refuse to give credence to anyone posting in here that doesn't arrive at your view.

I've repeatedly asked you to defend your interpretation as I am required per 1 Thess. 5 and 1 John 4. Unfortunately, your responses indicate that you have not seriously considered your own position - so of course I do not find it credible. You're not obligated to show the Scriptural backing for it... but I had hoped you would given that you believe it is true. I've done my part to prove my interpretation that the city is figurative by using the Bible.

Vakeros
Mar 10th 2014, 09:01 PM
No....... you simply refuse to give credence to anyone posting in here that doesn't arrive at your view.

In your world, you have zero idea of what heaven will be like... in mine, I know what is waiting on me...
You state that, but don't seem able to support your view - you denounce anyone who questions your viewpoint, whilst failing to give support for your view. Aviyah just gave you a golden opportunity to show why New Jerusalem is BOTH literal AND symbolic, and you don't give a single reason - all you do is denounce the view given.
Do you actually have a SINGLE supporting scripture which shows that New Jerusalem IS a literal city made of gold? Do you have anything which deals with the points she made? She gave 9 comparisons directly from scripture which shows that this is symbolic language and all you can say is the above....:hmm:

I used to think it was speaking of the place where the Bride lives, until I read this thread today. I hadn't worked through any of these points or questions, but as soon as I did I can logically see her point of view and have yet to read anything other than divaD's points that cause you to think why it could be literal. I answered his points though from scripture, so I would like to read Biblical, sound reasons why New Jerusalem is a physical city and NOT a symbol of the church, just like the picture of the church as a temple given in Ephesians 2.

ChangedByHim
Mar 10th 2014, 09:08 PM
You state that, but don't seem able to support your view - you denounce anyone who questions your viewpoint, whilst failing to give support for your view. Aviyah just gave you a golden opportunity to show why New Jerusalem is BOTH literal AND symbolic, and you don't give a single reason - all you do is denounce the view given.
Do you actually have a SINGLE supporting scripture which shows that New Jerusalem IS a literal city made of gold? Do you have anything which deals with the points she made? She gave 9 comparisons directly from scripture which shows that this is symbolic language and all you can say is the above....:hmm:

I used to think it was speaking of the place where the Bride lives, until I read this thread today. I hadn't worked through any of these points or questions, but as soon as I did I can logically see her point of view and have yet to read anything other than divaD's points that cause you to think why it could be literal. I answered his points though from scripture, so I would like to read Biblical, sound reasons why New Jerusalem is a physical city and NOT a symbol of the church, just like the picture of the church as a temple given in Ephesians 2.

THE TEXT ITSELF SUPPORTS MY VIEW! What you mean is that I feel no need to convince her or you... and that would be correct sir.

ChangedByHim
Mar 10th 2014, 09:11 PM
I've repeatedly asked you to defend your interpretation as I am required per 1 Thess. 5 and 1 John 4. Unfortunately, your responses indicate that you have not seriously considered your own position - so of course I do not find it credible. You're not obligated to show the Scriptural backing for it... but I had hoped you would given that you believe it is true. I've done my part to prove my interpretation that the city is figurative by using the Bible.
I have seriously considered my positions with over 30 years of study every day. It's not something I copied off a web page from a google search. I appreciate all that you have posted, but none of it brings me to your conclusion -that of changing the text from what is plainly written.

This site should be called Bible Interpretation Forum... I will just stick with the plain text and not try to make it say something it doesn't.

Aviyah
Mar 10th 2014, 09:18 PM
I have seriously considered my positions with over 30 years of study every day. It's not something I copied off a web page from a google search.

Actually, Post #77 is the result of my own study. I simply went through chapter 21 & 22 verse by verse and looked for parallels in the New Testament if one did not immediately come to mind. But since you have been studying these subjects for 30 years, it should not be difficult to prove your own interpretation and show why my findings are inappropriate comparisons.

ChangedByHim
Mar 10th 2014, 09:22 PM
I am really waiting for you to define what eternity will be like aviyah... I know, because I read it in the Word... where do you get your idea from on the matter?


Actually, Post #77 is the result of my own study. I simply went through chapter 21 & 22 verse by verse and looked for parallels in the New Testament if one did not immediately come to mind. But since you have been studying these subjects for 30 years, it should not be difficult to prove your own interpretation and show why my findings are inappropriate comparisons.

I was making no reference to those verses. Just responding to your silly notion that I haven't even considered my own views.

Your findings are fine. As I stated, you have chosen the spiritual in exclusion of the literal, while I maintain both :).

Aviyah
Mar 10th 2014, 09:37 PM
I am really waiting for you to define what eternity will be like aviyah...

I don't see why it would differ greatly from creation as it was originally intended. This is mainly because of these verses:

For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. (Ro. 8:20-21) and...

Repent therefore, and turn back, that your sins may be blotted out, that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that he may send the Christ appointed for you, Jesus, whom heaven must receive until the time for restoring all the things about which God spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets long ago. (Acts 3:19-21)

Also, I have not found anything which states that our physical bodies will differ from our present bodies other than being free from the corruption of sin (ie: death, weakness, dishonor - 1 Cor. 15). I certainly have not found evidence that we will live in a golden box for eternity, no matter how beautifully decorated. Humans were created to fill the Earth and subdue it. Evidently God's original plan was for us to expand, explore, build, and discover - our productivity and creations being testaments to the glory of God (art, music, technology, education, industry, commerce, and ultimately families). Since we do not become angels or a different species, I do not see why this would greatly change.

(Deleted the rant part, I'll probably make it a separate topic).

divaD
Mar 10th 2014, 09:46 PM
Let me give you a couple of verses to help you see things logically:
2Co 3:17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.
The word "there" is the same word as found in Rev 21 and Matt 17.
Is this word speaking of a physical place, a spiritual place, or a metaphorical place?

Having some health issues at the moment, so, hard for me to focus on everything you mentioned.

To me that wouldn't even be the point. Because where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom,Since that verse says...and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom...what would be the opposite of that? and where the Spirit of the Lord is NOT, there is NOT freedom. Even though the Spirit of the Lord is there, There where He is, THERE is not literally Him, but that He is a part of being 'THERE..



Heb 7:8 And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.
Heb 7:8 In the one case tithes are received by mortal men, but in the other case, by one of whom it is testified that he lives.
Again we have the word "there" - so is it a physical, spiritual or metaphorical place?

It's still not a person or persons when describing 'there'..that would be my point.

The church is made up of persons. New Jerusalem is a place where people will dwell...huge difference IMO.

Vakeros
Mar 11th 2014, 09:43 AM
Having some health issues at the moment, so, hard for me to focus on everything you mentioned.

To me that wouldn't even be the point. Because where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom,Since that verse says...and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom...what would be the opposite of that? and where the Spirit of the Lord is NOT, there is NOT freedom. Even though the Spirit of the Lord is there, There where He is, THERE is not literally Him, but that He is a part of being 'THERE..

It's still not a person or persons when describing 'there'..that would be my point.

The church is made up of persons. New Jerusalem is a place where people will dwell...huge difference IMO.
The Church is indeed made up of PERSONS. We are in 100% agreement.
Sorry about your health problems, prayed for you.
The point made is that the word "there" which you emphasized speaks of a physical place, is used NOT for describing a physical "there", rather describing being amongst people. Where is He, He is in my heart? Is that a physical place or speaking as a relational place?
Actually is New Jerusalem describe as a place where people will dwell or where God dwells? Furthermore, when you speak of the church, do you think of the building or the people?
When I say I am going to church - do I mean I am going to a building, or to be with Believers? It can be either or even BOTH.
The question therefore to decide about New Jerusalem is:
Does it speak of the physical building or does it speak of the spiritual building or both?

The Spirit of the Lord isn't located in a building, but in His people. There is freedom in His people. The freedom isn't in the building.
Every aspect of the New Jerusalem is seen as being about God dwelling amongst us. This then is speaking about a relational place and not a physical place. Again when New Jerusalem is described as the Bride of Christ, this isn't speaking of a physical building marrying God but about the people of God being His Bride.
Rev 21:2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God.

In verse 2 then this holy city, New Jerusalem is NOT speaking about a physical building. We could argue that the phrase like a bride isn't speaking about the church and Christ, but rather simply that it is beautified. That is a fair thought except this is then stated:
Rev 21:9 Then came one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues and spoke to me, saying, "Come, I will show you the Bride, the wife of the Lamb."
Rev 21:10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great, high mountain, and showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God,
This confirms that NJ (not New Jersey but New Jerusalem) is indeed the Bride. This is no way therefore speaks of a physical building any more than we are the temple of God speaks of a physical building.

This is further confirmed with the next verse:
Rev 21:11 having the glory of God, its radiance like a most rare jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal.

Can a building HAVE the glory of God? We will be glorified and be like Him, we will be radiant, a building can hide the Glory of God, but then we are told there will no longer be a temple:
Rev 21:22 And I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb.
Rev 21:23 And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and its lamp is the Lamb.
Rev 21:24 By its light will the nations walk, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it,
Rev 21:25 and its gates will never be shut by day—and there will be no night there.

In fact verse 24 to the end are the strongest verses to think of it as a physical place, yet we already know that we are the light of the world even as He is the light. The difference will be that the sinner will be in the LoF and thus will never enter in. They are outside as we are inside.

Vakeros
Mar 11th 2014, 09:47 AM
THE TEXT ITSELF SUPPORTS MY VIEW! What you mean is that I feel no need to convince her or you... and that would be correct sir.
You may have no need to convince her or me, which is fine. However rather than stating that you said something else entirely, you denounced the view with out supporting why you denounce it.
The TEXT itself doesn't support your view. If it did then Aviyah wouldn't be making these points which show that the text doesn't support such a view. I agree a superficial reading, without considering what the TEXT actually says initially gives the impression of a physical city. So is God going to marry a physical city? No, of course NOT! Which then means the text doesn't support your view, and you need to show from the TEXT and other scripture that what you say is in fact logical and makes sense. You prefer to attack the messenger and not deal with the message.

Vakeros
Mar 11th 2014, 09:50 AM
I am really waiting for you to define what eternity will be like aviyah... I know, because I read it in the Word... where do you get your idea from on the matter?
I was making no reference to those verses. Just responding to your silly notion that I haven't even considered my own views.
Your findings are fine. As I stated, you have chosen the spiritual in exclusion of the literal, while I maintain both :).
I don't think Aviyah suggested you haven't considered your own views, but she was challenging you to consider hers.
Now as you state that her findings are fine, can you present why you believe that the New Jerusalem is literal - IOW what in the text and from other scripture supports your notion that NJ is a real physical place?

John 8:32
Mar 11th 2014, 11:24 AM
Isaiah 66 is a description of Hell-Gehenna.

????We certainly do not agree here...

Isa 66:10 Rejoice ye with Jerusalem, and be glad with her, all ye that love her: rejoice for joy with her, all ye that mourn for her:
Isa 66:11 That ye may suck, and be satisfied with the breasts of her consolations; that ye may milk out, and be delighted with the abundance of her glory.
Isa 66:12 For thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will extend peace to her like a river, and the glory of the Gentiles like a flowing stream: then shall ye suck, ye shall be borne upon her sides, and be dandled upon her knees.
Isa 66:13 As one whom his mother comforteth, so will I comfort you; and ye shall be comforted in Jerusalem.
Isa 66:14 And when ye see this, your heart shall rejoice, and your bones shall flourish like an herb: and the hand of the LORD shall be known toward his servants, and his indignation toward his enemies.


Here is a picture of the Trumpet plagues to bring mankind to repentance prior to the Millenium...

Isa 66:15 For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.
Isa 66:16 For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.
Isa 66:17 They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD.
Isa 66:18 For I know their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory.
Isa 66:19 And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles.

On into the Millenium...

Isa 66:20 And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the LORD out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the LORD, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD.
Isa 66:21 And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith the LORD.
Isa 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
Isa 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

Aviyah
Mar 11th 2014, 03:34 PM
????We certainly do not agree here...

I should say it includes a description of hell-gehenna and therefore cannot be your millennium.

“For as the new heavens and the new earth that I make shall remain before me, says the Lord, so shall your offspring and your name remain. From new moon to new moon, and from Sabbath to Sabbath, all flesh shall come to worship before me, declares the Lord. “And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.” (Is. 66:22-24)

And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell (Gehenna), ‘where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.’ (Mk. 9:47-48)

Apparently Jesus understood Isaiah 66 as speaking of the end.

John 8:32
Mar 11th 2014, 03:42 PM
I should say it includes a description of hell-gehenna and therefore cannot be your millennium.

“For as the new heavens and the new earth that I make shall remain before me, says the Lord, so shall your offspring and your name remain. From new moon to new moon, and from Sabbath to Sabbath, all flesh shall come to worship before me, declares the Lord. “And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.” (Is. 66:22-24)

And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell (Gehenna), ‘where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.’ (Mk. 9:47-48)

Apparently Jesus understood Isaiah 66 as speaking of the end.

Hmmm, read rightover the part that says...

Isa 66:10 Rejoice ye with Jerusalem, and be glad with her, all ye that love her: rejoice for joy with her, all ye that mourn for her:
Isa 66:11 That ye may suck, and be satisfied with the breasts of her consolations; that ye may milk out, and be delighted with the abundance of her glory.
Isa 66:12 For thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will extend peace to her like a river, and the glory of the Gentiles like a flowing stream: then shall ye suck, ye shall be borne upon her sides, and be dandled upon her knees.
Isa 66:13 As one whom his mother comforteth, so will I comfort you; and ye shall be comforted in Jerusalem.
Isa 66:14 And when ye see this, your heart shall rejoice, and your bones shall flourish like an herb: and the hand of the LORD shall be known toward his servants, and his indignation toward his enemies.

And this is Hell?

Isa 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
Isa 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

The reference here is to people worshipping God and seeing those who would not in Gehenna.

Aviyah
Mar 11th 2014, 03:52 PM
The reference here is to people worshipping God and seeing those who would not in Gehenna.

Yes.... what's your point? If Gehenna is present then this does not take place in the millennium, which you claim 66 is about. Anyway the thread isn't about pre-mil, so we shouldn't derail it.

Vakeros
Mar 11th 2014, 04:06 PM
Yes.... what's your point? If Gehenna is present then this does not take place in the millennium, which you claim 66 is about. Anyway the thread isn't about pre-mil, so we shouldn't derail it.
Aviyah,
Could you highlight for me which verses in Isaiah 65 or 66 speak to you of Gehenna/Hell/LoF?
Is it the verses you highlighted in your post #93?
For me when someone is cast into the LoF, you won't go out and look on a dead body. I think we agree that these verses speak of dead bodies. Thus it isn't speaking of Gehenna, but rather Jesus used this picture from Isaiah 66 to help us understand what Gehenna would be like. You won't have bodies lying around in Rev 21 and 22. So it is a different picture to Isaiah 65 & 66. The one physical helps us to grasp the other. The Millennium being a foretaste of the Eternal.
But then as I think you still think that NOW is the Millennium then we will obviously have a difference of opinion. I think we BOTH agree that Rev 21 is POST Millennial.

John 8:32
Mar 11th 2014, 04:44 PM
Aviyah,
Could you highlight for me which verses in Isaiah 65 or 66 speak to you of Gehenna/Hell/LoF?
Is it the verses you highlighted in your post #93?
For me when someone is cast into the LoF, you won't go out and look on a dead body. I think we agree that these verses speak of dead bodies. Thus it isn't speaking of Gehenna, but rather Jesus used this picture from Isaiah 66 to help us understand what Gehenna would be like. You won't have bodies lying around in Rev 21 and 22. So it is a different picture to Isaiah 65 & 66. The one physical helps us to grasp the other. The Millennium being a foretaste of the Eternal.
But then as I think you still think that NOW is the Millennium then we will obviously have a difference of opinion. I think we BOTH agree that Rev 21 is POST Millennial.

Here is the result of the Lake of Fire...

Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
Mal 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
Mal 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

jeffweeder
Mar 12th 2014, 07:00 AM
I have seriously considered my positions with over 30 years of study every day. It's not something I copied off a web page from a google search. I appreciate all that you have posted, but none of it brings me to your conclusion -that of changing the text from what is plainly written.

This site should be called Bible Interpretation Forum... I will just stick with the plain text and not try to make it say something it doesn't.

Bible chat forum is cool.
Was not Ezekiel speaking of the place where God would would dwell with his people forever?....where he saw a river and trees bearing fruit that dont wither?. It appears to me that both Ezekiel and John are explaining the same thing...that is then Spiritual in nature.