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luigi
Mar 21st 2014, 02:08 PM
"Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:" (Rev 3:17)

From my understanding of this verse; to be materially wealthy, means spiritual poverty.

Corroborating this perspective further is: "Let the brother of low degree rejoice in that he is exalted: But the rich, in that he is made low: because as the flower of the grass he shall pass away." (James 1:9-10)

From my understanding of this verse, our brethren who have few material possessions are they who are wealthy in spirit, while our materially rich brethren are the poor in spirit.

Scooby_Snacks
Mar 21st 2014, 02:26 PM
"Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:" (Rev 3:17)

From my understanding of this verse; to be materially wealthy, means spiritual poverty.

Corroborating this perspective further is: "Let the brother of low degree rejoice in that he is exalted: But the rich, in that he is made low: because as the flower of the grass he shall pass away." (James 1:9-10)

From my understanding of this verse, our brethren who have few material possessions are they who are wealthy in spirit, while our materially rich brethren are the poor in spirit.







I do not understand the verse in the same way.

I believe it has to do with issues of the heart, showing contrast between two states:
Relying on material goods that perish/pass away V.S. relying on God who does not.

Having material possessions does not make a person who already relies on God wretched, poor, blind or naked.

But having reliance upon material possessions rather than on God, or believing that having great material possessions “makes a person valuable” is the blind spot because they are unable to see that God is the giver of everything good, including ones own life, abilities/talents.

Believing in God and having material blessing that is directly from Him (either through ones own vocation or heritage) is not a sin. The sin is having reliance upon them rather than God who gives.

Not everyone who is poor materially is rich in faith.
Many are lost, the materially poor and the materially rich.
I just think it is important distinction to make that God made both, and that both must come to the point in their life where they see their need for God. (That they are spiritually poor without Him)

Jake
Mar 21st 2014, 03:02 PM
Good post Scooby! :)

The heart of the matter is self-sufficiency, the point is missed if the focus remains on a formula of wealthy=spiritual poverty and poor=rich in spirit. When God blesses with wealth (and He does), He expects them to be good stewards and help those in need
(for those who have been given much, much is required).

If all Christians, everywhere, are in poverty, not being able to feed the poor or clothe them as James pointed out, God would not have told us to go and take care of those in need.

luigi
Mar 21st 2014, 03:20 PM
I do not understand the verse in the same way.

I believe it has to do with issues of the heart, showing contrast between two states:
Relying on material goods that perish/pass away V.S. relying on God who does not.

It's definitely issues of the heart: "For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also." (Matt 6:21 & Lk 12:34)

And where your treasure and heart are can only be towards one master, Mammon or God (Matt 6:24).

So to me this definitely means; brethren who are materially rich are spiritually poor; and brethren who are materially poor are spiritually rich.

luigi
Mar 21st 2014, 03:50 PM
Good post Scooby! :)

The heart of the matter is self-sufficiency, the point is missed if the focus remains on a formula of wealthy=spiritual poverty and poor=rich in spirit. When God blesses with wealth (and He does), He expects them to be good stewards and help those in need
(for those who have been given much, much is required).

If all Christians, everywhere, are in poverty, not being able to feed the poor or clothe them as James pointed out, God would not have told us to go and take care of those in need.
When Jesus was asked whether taxes should be paid, He asked them to show Him a coin. This indicates Jesus had no purse and did not depend on Mammon.
When Jesus was expected to pay tax, He told Peter to go fishing, and the coin he found to pay the tax for both Himself and Peter; thereby indicating no purse for either.
When Peter was asked for alms (Acts 3:6), he responded that he had neither silver nor gold, thereby indicating he had no purse, and thereby depended on God and not on Mammon.

This examples represent a wealth of faith in God for providing their needs, and not in Mammon.
By comparison, we today have a wealth of faith in Mammon for providing our daily needs, and not in God.

Scooby_Snacks
Mar 21st 2014, 05:45 PM
John 12:4-6
But one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, who was later to betray him, objected, “Why wasn’t this perfume sold and the money given to the poor? It was worth a year’s wages.”
He did not say this because he cared about the poor but because he was a thief; as keeper of the money bag, he used to help himself to what was put into it.

Judas always held the bag of money that from it specific needs were met for Jesus ministry.
That was his job, a treasurer so to speak. Jesus may have not carried money in His pocket, but money was carried to meet the needs of the ministry.

John 13:27-30
So Jesus told him, “What you are about to do, do quickly.” But no one at the meal understood why Jesus said this to him.
Since Judas had charge of the money, some thought Jesus was telling him to buy what was needed for the festival, or to give something to the poor.
As soon as Judas had taken the bread, he went out. And it was night.

Scooby_Snacks
Mar 21st 2014, 05:53 PM
It's definitely issues of the heart: "For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also." (Matt 6:21 & Lk 12:34)

And where your treasure and heart are can only be towards one master, Mammon or God (Matt 6:24).

So to me this definitely means; brethren who are materially rich are spiritually poor; and brethren who are materially poor are spiritually rich.


Just clarifying luigi:

You believe that Christians that are materially rich are spiritually poor?

Because it is the flip side of being materially poor and spiritually rich. I happen to believe that those who are materially poor and rely on God ARE spiritually rich. But I do not believe those who are materially rich and still rely on God have a deficit spiritually.

It is the love of money that is a problem. Money itself is not evil. Possessions are not evil. The LOVE of them is rooted in evil.

Jesus could have said Himself: Do not use that expensive oil to anoint me. But He did not.

In other words: The expensive oil was not evil. This anointing of Jesus glorified Him, and it's symbolism I might be able to discuss at length bringing to light many connections to scripture regarding it.

Jake
Mar 21st 2014, 11:42 PM
When Jesus was asked whether taxes should be paid, He asked them to show Him a coin. This indicates Jesus had no purse and did not depend on Mammon.
When Jesus was expected to pay tax, He told Peter to go fishing, and the coin he found to pay the tax for both Himself and Peter; thereby indicating no purse for either.
When Peter was asked for alms (Acts 3:6), he responded that he had neither silver nor gold, thereby indicating he had no purse, and thereby depended on God and not on Mammon.

This examples represent a wealth of faith in God for providing their needs, and not in Mammon.
By comparison, we today have a wealth of faith in Mammon for providing our daily needs, and not in God.

More often than not, God sends other people (who have something to offer) to those people who are in need - that's what makes a community. If someone has been blessed by God with mammon, then that person can provide another with something they lack - example - food, shelter, clothing, vehicles, etc. The person giving is spiritually rich because of the blessings he receives from God for giving and the person receiving is also blessed because of what has been given.

Again, you can not equate spiritually poor with those who are wealthy with money and those without money can not always be seen as spiritually rich, it's not that simple and it doesn't work like that.

luigi
Mar 22nd 2014, 11:59 AM
John 12:4-6
But one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, who was later to betray him, objected, “Why wasn’t this perfume sold and the money given to the poor? It was worth a year’s wages.”
He did not say this because he cared about the poor but because he was a thief; as keeper of the money bag, he used to help himself to what was put into it.

Judas always held the bag of money that from it specific needs were met for Jesus ministry.
That was his job, a treasurer so to speak. Jesus may have not carried money in His pocket, but money was carried to meet the needs of the ministry.

John 13:27-30
So Jesus told him, “What you are about to do, do quickly.” But no one at the meal understood why Jesus said this to him.
Since Judas had charge of the money, some thought Jesus was telling him to buy what was needed for the festival, or to give something to the poor.
As soon as Judas had taken the bread, he went out. And it was night.
And yet when someone said to Jesus that he would always follow him anywhere He would go, Jesus responded: "...foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of man hath no where to lay His head." (Lk 9:57-58)
So while Judas Iscariot was the treasurer, held the money bag, and was a thief; he also apparently was no where to be found to rent a room, thereby indicating Jesus and his true cohorts having no money on their persons, with their dependence on God and not Mammon.

luigi
Mar 22nd 2014, 12:19 PM
More often than not, God sends other people (who have something to offer) to those people who are in need - that's what makes a community. If someone has been blessed by God with mammon, then that person can provide another with something they lack - example - food, shelter, clothing, vehicles, etc. The person giving is spiritually rich because of the blessings he receives from God for giving and the person receiving is also blessed because of what has been given.

Again, you can not equate spiritually poor with those who are wealthy with money and those without money can not always be seen as spiritually rich, it's not that simple and it doesn't work like that.
I suspect that everyone on this forum knows that God sends people who have mammon, to provide for others who do not have sufficient food, clothing, and other necessities.
I do not, however, agree with your premise that the materially rich individual that gives of his abundance, is also spiritually rich.
That would contradict the scriptures I previously posted, and would therefore be denying Gods Word.

Scooby_Snacks
Mar 22nd 2014, 02:42 PM
And yet when someone said to Jesus that he would always follow him anywhere He would go, Jesus responded: "...foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of man hath no where to lay His head." (Lk 9:57-58)
So while Judas Iscariot was the treasurer, held the money bag, and was a thief; he also apparently was no where to be found to rent a room, thereby indicating Jesus and his true cohorts having no money on their persons, with their dependence on God and not Mammon.

Okay, Jesus did not own a home. The disciples probably did not either.

The question is this: Do you believe we should all then be homeless and relying on the hospitality of others (as Jesus and disciples did) being that they were welcomed into these homes, that those who had these homes came to believe but did not go sell their homes to join them?

Does everyone have the same ministry as Jesus did?

I think not.
God provided through the hospitality of others and those who provided were not wrong for having something to provide.

Of course, if you feel as though God does not accept you where you are, but only will when you are homeless with no possessions, I cannot do anything about that. Everything belongs to God, Our children, mothers, fathers and possessions. Surrendering them to Him (as did those who provided in Jesus ministry) means to me that He may do with them as He wills for His Glory.

Judas was carrying money for the ministry. It does not matter that he did not rent them a room. That was not God's will. It was God's will that Jesus was anointed by Mary.

Scooby_Snacks
Mar 22nd 2014, 02:53 PM
Everyone is spiritually poor, wretched and naked without Jesus. All have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God.
I is the realization of this, from the richest man to the most devout religious self sacrificing man that sinners need what Jesus provided by His love, and that He is worthy of all glory because of it.

luigi
Mar 22nd 2014, 03:07 PM
Okay, Jesus did not own a home. The disciples probably did not either.

The question is this: Do you believe we should all then be homeless and relying on the hospitality of others (as Jesus and disciples did) being that they were welcomed into these homes, that those who had these homes came to believe but did not go sell their homes to join them?

Does everyone have the same ministry as Jesus did?

I think not.
God provided through the hospitality of others and those who provided were not wrong for having something to provide.


To becoming one of the Lords disciples, Jesus said make sure you have enough before you go out to build a tower, or before you go to war with someone; in context to where if you did not hate your life and everything related to it, you could then not be His disciple; because when you were to see yourself homeless and hungry, you would then turn back to your old life.
So to answer whether we should all go and be homeless and rely on the hospitality of others (which would not rely on the hospitably of others, but would represent having a wealth of faith in God providing our needs), the answer is obviously no, seeing very few in my opinion have sufficient wealth/faith in God to do so.

So you are correct that not everyone has the same ministry as Jesus or His disciples, who were rich in Spirit.
And also right in that God does provide for His elect through individuals He/Love manipulates into so doing.

luigi
Mar 22nd 2014, 03:14 PM
Everyone is spiritually poor, wretched and naked without Jesus. All have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God.
I is the realization of this, from the richest man to the most devout religious self sacrificing man that sinners need what Jesus provided by His love, and that He is worthy of all glory because of it.Yes, everyone without Love is spiritually poor, wretched and naked, which include the wealthy materialistically enamored brethren.

Jake
Mar 22nd 2014, 03:21 PM
I suspect that everyone on this forum knows that God sends people who have mammon, to provide for others who do not have sufficient food, clothing, and other necessities.
I do not, however, agree with your premise that the materially rich individual that gives of his abundance, is also spiritually rich.
That would contradict the scriptures I previously posted, and would therefore be denying Gods Word.

It doesn't appear that you understand this concept though - no disrespect intended - when believers, in local communities, have nothing to share with one another because they have no abundance to do so, then we're all looking for someone to give us something and not the other way around.

I can see someone using your point of view as a way to get out of providing for his/her family or themselves for that matter. What does the Bible say about such people?

2 Thess 3:10 For even when we were with you, we gave you this rule: "The one who is unwilling to work shall not eat."

How much is an abundance? Should we as a Church start creating laws for one another to set an amount of money we can or can not make in a given time period? Should we create laws whereby Christians can have only so much money in the bank at one time?

I can find more scripture that supports the prosperity gospel than this one you're trying to show.

Jake
Mar 22nd 2014, 03:24 PM
To becoming one of the Lords disciples, Jesus said make sure you have enough before you go out to build a tower, or before you go to war with someone; in context to where if you did not hate your life and everything related to it, you could then not be His disciple; because when you were to see yourself homeless and hungry, you would then turn back to your old life.
So to answer whether we should all go and be homeless and rely on the hospitality of others (which would not rely on the hospitably of others, but would represent having a wealth of faith in God providing our needs), the answer is obviously no, seeing very few in my opinion have sufficient wealth/faith in God to do so.

So you are correct that not everyone has the same ministry as Jesus or His disciples, who were rich in Spirit.
And also right in that God does provide for His elect through individuals He/Love manipulates into so doing.

You misunderstand the verse that says we must hate our mother and brothers because on the flip side, we're to love everyone. This verse means that we should not put anything above God, to not have idols in our lives. He told the rich ruler to get rid of his possessions and wealth because Jesus knew the ryr loved his possessions and his money MORE than he loved God.

God is not calling us all to a life of poverty - otherwise we would not be able to take care of one another.

luigi
Mar 22nd 2014, 03:44 PM
You misunderstand the verse that says we must hate our mother and brothers because on the flip side, we're to love everyone. This verse means that we should not put anything above God, to not have idols in our lives. He told the rich ruler to get rid of his possessions and wealth because Jesus knew the ryr loved his possessions and his money MORE than he loved God.

God is not calling us all to a life of poverty - otherwise we would not be able to take care of one another.

I am not saying that you have to hate your relatives as if you wanted to kill them. I am saying you would have to hate them as in your relationship with them.
Jake, if you love your life, your mother, your father, your wife, your sister, or your brother, and you were to go out to follow the Lord as He walked; when you would find yourself without a place to sleep, or food to eat, would you not look back to your former life and family? The answer is yes you would look back, and therefore not be worthy for the kingdom of God (Lk 9:62).
This loving our lives includes our possessions, our homes, our cars, TV's, refrigerators, etc., which if we look on as needing, we can then not follow Christ as He walked.

luigi
Mar 22nd 2014, 03:58 PM
It doesn't appear that you understand this concept though - no disrespect intended - when believers, in local communities, have nothing to share with one another because they have no abundance to do so, then we're all looking for someone to give us something and not the other way around.

I can see someone using your point of view as a way to get out of providing for his/her family or themselves for that matter. What does the Bible say about such people?

2 Thess 3:10 For even when we were with you, we gave you this rule: "The one who is unwilling to work shall not eat."

How much is an abundance? Should we as a Church start creating laws for one another to set an amount of money we can or can not make in a given time period? Should we create laws whereby Christians can have only so much money in the bank at one time?

I can find more scripture that supports the prosperity gospel than this one you're trying to show.
You are correct, in that one should work and provide for their family.
This applies to the vast majority of us on this forum, including myself.
There are, however, the very few of us who under whatever their circumstances may be, represent those who leave their lives behind to follow Christ.

I am also not saying that those of us who do not follow Christ as His disciples, are necessarily bereft of spiritual wealth; what I am saying is that if they posses the riches of this world, then according to Rev 3:17, these individuals are wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked, while unaware of their condition.

Scooby_Snacks
Mar 22nd 2014, 05:19 PM
To becoming one of the Lords disciples, Jesus said make sure you have enough before you go out to build a tower, or before you go to war with someone; in context to where if you did not hate your life and everything related to it, you could then not be His disciple; because when you were to see yourself homeless and hungry, you would then turn back to your old life.
I am trying to connect what you are saying in the first sentence.



So to answer whether we should all go and be homeless and rely on the hospitality of others (which would not rely on the hospitably of others, but would represent having a wealth of faith in God providing our needs), the answer is obviously no, seeing very few in my opinion have sufficient wealth/faith in God to do so.


By saying you believe few have sufficient wealth/faith in God to be homeless, you are saying they would be homeless if they had enough faith.


So you are correct that not everyone has the same ministry as Jesus or His disciples, who were rich in Spirit.

All ministry in God's will is from Him, not ourselves, through His Spirit not the flesh.
The foundation of Christ the apostles and prophets was distinct.

But, the same Holy Spirit that each person Born again spiritually has, Jesus had and the disciples had within them after He ascended.
It is wisdom to know what the perfect will of God is.


And also right in that God does provide for His elect through individuals He/Love manipulates into so doing.

Following God's Word or The Holy Spirit's leading does not amount to manipulation.
People chose to do His will as they are lead or their own will.

What about Solomon? He was wealthy, yes? He had wisdom yes? He believed in God, yes? Books of Ecclesiastes and Song of Solomon are both in God's Word. What do you do about him, or King David who obviously was not in want materially?

Scooby_Snacks
Mar 22nd 2014, 05:51 PM
You are correct, in that one should work and provide for their family.
This applies to the vast majority of us on this forum, including myself.
There are, however, the very few of us who under whatever their circumstances may be, represent those who leave their lives behind to follow Christ.

I believe looking at others and judging their spiritual walk, whether they have left their old lives behind and are living as New Creatures without knowing them grieves The Holy Spirit.



I am also not saying that those of us who do not follow Christ as His disciples, are necessarily bereft of spiritual wealth; what I am saying is that if they posses the riches of this world, then according to Rev 3:17, these individuals are wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked, while unaware of their condition.

From this area of scripture, God wishes we were either cold or hot. He wants us to be honest about it. To seek relationship with Him either way.
Those who are lukewarm no longer see a need to grow in Him. Everything is fine to them just where they are.
They believe they are no longer in need, that they must have arrived---but that is a dangerous place to not need God!
But God is bringing light to this situation, and expects to be heard, to repent of complacency.

I DO understand some of the reasoning you are bringing up these scriptures. Every person must examine themselves honestly and see what they have put before relationship with God or His will for their lives. Like Jake said, nothing is to be an idol, and for certain it is easy to fall into that trap, just as many temptations can come to those who have material wealth.

Jake
Mar 22nd 2014, 06:24 PM
I am not saying that you have to hate your relatives as if you wanted to kill them. I am saying you would have to hate them as in your relationship with them.
Jake, if you love your life, your mother, your father, your wife, your sister, or your brother, and you were to go out to follow the Lord as He walked; when you would find yourself without a place to sleep, or food to eat, would you not look back to your former life and family? The answer is yes you would look back, and therefore not be worthy for the kingdom of God (Lk 9:62).
That's simple, if you want to make this personal, no I wouldn't go back seems how there is nothing for me to go back or look back, too.



This loving our lives includes our possessions, our homes, our cars, TV's, refrigerators, etc., which if we look on as needing, we can then not follow Christ as He walked.

Who loves their lives? Personal again - but the only thing I own is my car, not to disappoint you, I'm not really in love with that either.

Maybe you've run into too many people who love their wealth more than God but that is not the case with me. Not saying it doesn't happen, but there are believers out there who God has blessed financially and they are very Christ like.

God did not call of us to be destitute in poverty without money or possessions.

This all reminds me of Catholic Priests btw.

luigi
Mar 22nd 2014, 08:58 PM
I am trying to connect what you are saying in the first sentence.
Make sure you have enough faith, desire, will, to follow the Lord as a disciple. (Lk 14:28-33)

Scooby_Snacks
Mar 22nd 2014, 09:05 PM
Matthew 8:14
And when Jesus entered Peter’s house, he saw his mother-in-law lying sick with a fever.
He touched her hand, and the fever left her, and she rose and began to serve him.
That evening they brought to him many who were oppressed by demons, and he cast out the spirits with a word and healed all who were sick.
This was to fulfill what was spoken by the prophet Isaiah: “He took our illnesses and bore our diseases.”


Is there any proof that Peter (who had a mother-in-law and so was obviously married, along with several other disciples) hated his wife or his mother-in-law? He did not hate them, but loved God and chose to trust Him with the call and command he was given, rather than succumbing to his own desires or that of his family.

I believe it is possible that wives, and mothers and children may all want their father (and/or mother)to be home with them instead of being a missionary. Today, many wives and children are also out with their father who is called to missions. This may have been the case with the disciples as well.

I believe this means hating others desires for our life with them or ones own desire for personal life plans so that the calling of God on ones life would be fulfilled.

Did the Centurian with his soldiers and servants, who had the greatest faith Jesus had ever seen leave his home and vocation and follow Jesus as a missionary?

He was either not called to, or scripture does not make note of it.

So now another question. Do you believe God has called you to missions?

luigi
Mar 22nd 2014, 09:08 PM
By saying you believe few have sufficient wealth/faith in God to be homeless, you are saying they would be homeless if they had enough faith.

That's putting a spin on it. I'm not saying that those with a wealth of faith in God means being homeless.
I'm saying what Luke 14:28-33 is saying. To follow Jesus as He walked requires quite a bit of self sacrifice, along with a certain type of character.

And yes, from the context of the aforementioned scriptures, it would seem to me that to be a disciple of Jesus would likely mean being homeless and hungry at times.

luigi
Mar 22nd 2014, 09:15 PM
Following God's Word or The Holy Spirit's leading does not amount to manipulation.
People chose to do His will as they are lead or their own will.



I too believe that we are all free to choose our own destiny. Those whom Love affects will choose the Way God. Manipulate may have been too strong a term.

Jake
Mar 22nd 2014, 09:15 PM
That's putting a spin on it. I'm not saying that those with a wealth of faith in God means being homeless.
I'm saying what Luke 14:28-33 is saying. To follow Jesus as He walked requires quite a bit of self sacrifice, along with a certain type of character.

And yes, from the context of the aforementioned scriptures, it would seem to me that to be a disciple of Jesus would likely mean being homeless and hungry at times.
He doesn't require "quite a bit of self-sacrifice" - He requires a complete and total surrender of ourselves.

It does not mean, however, that all of us are called to give all we have a way. It means our allegiance is completely to Him and not another or anything else.

If a person is never homeless in his/her lifetime, not satisfying your definition of a disciple, then they are not saved because they never got to check this off?

Do you see how you are creating rules for believers that God never created Himself?

luigi
Mar 22nd 2014, 09:16 PM
What about Solomon? He was wealthy, yes? He had wisdom yes? He believed in God, yes? Books of Ecclesiastes and Song of Solomon are both in God's Word. What do you do about him, or King David who obviously was not in want materially?David and Solomon had very unique roles. It is possible that the Lord will want some materially wealthy disciples, but I find that highly unlikely.

luigi
Mar 22nd 2014, 09:33 PM
I believe looking at others and judging their spiritual walk, whether they have left their old lives behind and are living as New Creatures without knowing them grieves The Holy Spirit.



From this area of scripture, God wishes we were either cold or hot. He wants us to be honest about it. To seek relationship with Him either way.
Those who are lukewarm no longer see a need to grow in Him. Everything is fine to them just where they are.
They believe they are no longer in need, that they must have arrived---but that is a dangerous place to not need God!
But God is bringing light to this situation, and expects to be heard, to repent of complacency.

I DO understand some of the reasoning you are bringing up these scriptures. Every person must examine themselves honestly and see what they have put before relationship with God or His will for their lives. Like Jake said, nothing is to be an idol, and for certain it is easy to fall into that trap, just as many temptations can come to those who have material wealth.
I am not judging anyone's spiritual walk, I am merely giving you my definition of who the spiritually poor are in Rev 3:17; the materially wealthy, who also represent the lukewarm in Rev 3:16. While it is true that most of the lukewarm (materially wealthy) are complacent; some, however, will see their true state of spiritual poverty, and thereby buy of the Lord gold tried in the fire that they may be rich (Rev 3:18).

luigi
Mar 22nd 2014, 09:38 PM
God did not call of us to be destitute in poverty without money or possessions.

You are correct that God did not call most of us to live as Jesus or the apostles without money or possessions. Only very few are chosen for this level of spiritual wealth.

luigi
Mar 22nd 2014, 09:47 PM
Is there any proof that Peter (who had a mother-in-law and so was obviously married, along with several other disciples) hated his wife or his mother-in-law? He did not hate them, but loved God and chose to trust Him with the call and command he was given, rather than succumbing to his own desires or that of his family.
If you look at my earlier post, I said that one would have to hate their life, and that with their relatives in order to follow Christ as He walked.
If Peter loved his life, or that with his wife, I do not believe he would have been able to walk as the Lord did.

luigi
Mar 22nd 2014, 09:50 PM
Did the Centurian with his soldiers and servants, who had the greatest faith Jesus had ever seen leave his home and vocation and follow Jesus as a missionary?

He was either not called to, or scripture does not make note of it.


I believe the Centurion was called, but for a different role than that of a disciple; and so he did not forsake all he had to walk as Jesus did.

cuban
Mar 22nd 2014, 09:51 PM
You are correct that God did not call most of us to live as Jesus or the apostles without money or possessions. Only very few are chosen for this level of spiritual wealth.

I've struggled with this for some time now, brother luigi. I know exactly what you are saying.

The Lord's call on my life is as you say. Forsaking all. There are men of this sort; those who wholeheartedly live by faith.

They support their families fully on what God provides, as they preach the Word in and out of season.
They trust on the Lord and stand on His promises that all that is needed will be provided, as they go about their Father's business.

And God uses these men MIGHTILY, for His glory.

These men are spiritual billionaires and are storing up treasures in heaven beyond our wildest imaginations.

luigi
Mar 22nd 2014, 09:56 PM
So now another question. Do you believe God has called you to missions?
I do believe so, as I also believe no one has a better grasp on biblical apocrypha than I do.

Whole different forum topic, so let's not get into this here.

Scooby_Snacks
Mar 22nd 2014, 09:57 PM
I am not judging anyone's spiritual walk, I am merely giving you my definition of who the spiritually poor are in Rev 3:17; the materially wealthy, who also represent the lukewarm in Rev 3:16. While it is true that most of the lukewarm (materially wealthy) are complacent; some, however, will see their true state of spiritual poverty, and thereby buy of the Lord gold tried in the fire that they may be rich (Rev 3:18).

I guess I just sensed a prejudice, and so I have a tendency to speak out. But having prejudice is one that I held in the past regarding those with more possessions than I believe in my own mind God wants them to have.
I have found though, it just isn't my place to decide, but to know others by the fruit of their life and character whether they are his.

I must be content in my own life, with what I have and the path He has me on. I will never be wealthy, and I sometimes would love to run away from all my responsibilities and be homeless!
If I do ever end up homeless, I know He will provide for me. It will be just another part of the walk of faith.

I have some issues with the wealthy in general, yet even God notes their wisdom is to be observed.

The truth of the matter is that God knows the heart of every believer in Him, and there is also no reason for any of us to shun the warnings in the bible as if they could not pertain to us, ever. Everything pertains. Everything is important.

God loves you luigi. There isn't anything that you could do or not do to change that.
Sacrifice is not preferred over love, ever.

luigi
Mar 22nd 2014, 09:59 PM
He doesn't require "quite a bit of self-sacrifice" - He requires a complete and total surrender of ourselves.
You are correct in that to be a disciple of Jesus one must surrender oneself completely to Him.

Jake
Mar 22nd 2014, 10:02 PM
God uses people who live in homes and have food in their fridge MIGHTILY, too. They are also storing up vast amounts of treasure in heaven beyond anyone's wildest imaginations. Yet, they still own a home, a car and have children. God has given them a job to support their families and in that job they are 'light and salt' to a dark place.

Those of us who do own something also live by faith.

luigi
Mar 22nd 2014, 10:05 PM
It does not mean, however, that all of us are called to give all we have a way. It means our allegiance is completely to Him and not another or anything else.

If a person is never homeless in his/her lifetime, not satisfying your definition of a disciple, then they are not saved because they never got to check this off?

Do you see how you are creating rules for believers that God never created Himself?
You are again correct that God has not called all of us to give away all our material possessions. Only disciples.
We can see the churches whom the disciples visited had material possessions, and families.

I am not creating any rules, other than those that appear in scriptures.

Jake
Mar 22nd 2014, 10:08 PM
You are correct in that to be a disciple of Jesus one must surrender oneself completely to Him.

Sacrificing is what we do everyday as believers, isn't it?

Hanging out on a college campus, we don't do what most do, partying, having pre-marital sex, doing drugs - we keep ourselves pure. The Lord brings to us what needs to be done and we do it, He shows us how to serve Him in ways we would have never thought on our own.

We can do these things now, it's the process of our sanctification. Who waits until they are perfect in order to do what He has called us to do NOW?


You are again correct that God has not called all of us to give away all our material possessions. Only disciples.
We can see the churches whom the disciples visited had material possessions, and families.

I am not creating any rules, other than those that appear in scriptures.

A disciple means to learn from a teacher.

Are you not learning from Christ? Is He not teaching you?

Jake
Mar 22nd 2014, 10:13 PM
I am not creating any rules, other than those that appear in scriptures.

Yes you did.

You have said that a believer in Christ should be homeless at least once and give away their possessions at least once.

These are rules you have created for us, they are not Biblical.

cuban
Mar 22nd 2014, 10:22 PM
God uses people who live in homes and have food in their fridge MIGHTILY, too. They are also storing up vast amounts of treasure in heaven beyond anyone's wildest imaginations. Yet, they still own a home, a car and have children. God has given them a job to support their families and in that job they are 'light and salt' to a dark place.

Those of us who do own something also live by faith.

Amen. I wasn't implying otherwise. :) Only that the crowns of some may be adorned with a few more jewels than others.

But surely you would agree that those who are without are gifted with a greater measure of faith? :)

So you believe that those with a fridge who are used MIGHTILY cannot claim to be disciples of Christ?

luigi
Mar 22nd 2014, 10:28 PM
I've struggled with this for some time now, brother luigi. I know exactly what you are saying.

The Lord's call on my life is as you say. Forsaking all. There are men of this sort; those who wholeheartedly live by faith.

They support their families fully on what God provides, as they preach the Word in and out of season.
They trust on the Lord and stand on His promises that all that is needed will be provided, as they go about their Father's business.

And God uses these men MIGHTILY, for His glory.

These men are spiritual billionaires and are storing up treasures in heaven beyond our wildest imaginations.
I too brother struggled with forsaking all and following Christ as He walked for a very long time, until I realized my role in Christ currently is other than that of a disciple.

Nevertheless, we are also told to seek the greater gifts; and so who knows what additional role, if any I will have in the future.
Another reason I feel I may have an additional role in the future (so long as I continue in the faith), is that I also believe the great tribulation (testing) of the faithful is just around the corner, which will result in many of us being purified; which will then mean many of us becoming disciples with a considerably greater level of faith wealth than we currently possess.
And as the Lord did say that his disciples would do the miracles he did, and even greater miracles, I then see where there will be many miracles performed by the saints following the GT.

Currently, however, as I haven't heard of anyone changing water to wine, walking on water, or raising the dead, I am therefore somewhat skeptical of calling anyone today a disciple of Christ.

Jake
Mar 22nd 2014, 10:30 PM
Amen. I wasn't implying otherwise. :) Only that the crowns of some may be adorned with a few more jewels than others. True, but it's a heart matter, it's not based upon what a person does not own or does own.


But surely you would agree that those who are without are gifted with a greater measure of faith? :) Not always because "those who God has given much, much is required" - this would include possessions and wealth, too. Who do you think fills the food banks? Who else feeds the homeless? Do the ones without fill another's home with what they need?

Ever see a man in poverty hire another man so he can feed his own family?


So you believe that those with a fridge who are used MIGHTILY cannot claim to be disciples of Christ?

Isn't it crazy? Nope, not me, luigi believes this.

luigi
Mar 22nd 2014, 10:35 PM
God uses people who live in homes and have food in their fridge MIGHTILY, too. They are also storing up vast amounts of treasure in heaven beyond anyone's wildest imaginations. Yet, they still own a home, a car and have children. God has given them a job to support their families and in that job they are 'light and salt' to a dark place.

Those of us who do own something also live by faith.
Those of us (like you and myself) who do own some material possessions also live by faith, just not as great faith as that of disciples.

cuban
Mar 22nd 2014, 10:38 PM
Sorry brother Jake, thought I was responding to luigi. Amen, thanks for clarifying this for me.

Jake
Mar 22nd 2014, 10:41 PM
Those of us (like you and myself) who do own some material possessions also live by faith, just not as great faith as that of disciples.

You should speak for yourself and not include others in your group of not being a disciple.

I own a car - if you want it, you can have it.

Jesus is the teacher, He is teaching those who want to learn from Him - we are called His disciples.


Sorry brother Jake, thought I was responding to luigi. Amen, thanks for clarifying this for me.

It's quit alright brother, not a problem.

luigi
Mar 22nd 2014, 10:42 PM
Sacrificing is what we do everyday as believers, isn't it?

Hopefully, sacrificing is what we do everyday as believers. However, we all currently fail now and then.
In comparison, I believe the saints following the GT will be incapable of sin, being of like mind (that of Christ).

luigi
Mar 22nd 2014, 10:48 PM
A disciple means to learn from a teacher.

Are you not learning from Christ? Is He not teaching you?
The basic definition of disciple means to learn from a teacher, but to be a disciple of the Lord additionally requires walking as the Lord walked; criteria of which previously mentioned.

Yes, I am continually learning of Christ from His Word in the bible.

luigi
Mar 22nd 2014, 10:50 PM
Yes you did.

You have said that a believer in Christ should be homeless at least once and give away their possessions at least once.

These are rules you have created for us, they are not Biblical.I did not state that a believer in Christ should be homeless and give away their possessions at least once.
Reread my posts.

Jake
Mar 22nd 2014, 11:00 PM
I did not state that a believer in Christ should be homeless and give away their possessions at least once.
Reread my posts.
This is what you said:


And yes, from the context of the aforementioned scriptures, it would seem to me that to be a disciple of Jesus would likely mean being homeless and hungry at times.

You've created a check list for what a true disciple is or isn't. You've also excluded any mention of a heart completely devoted to Christ, your explanations have only included getting rid of possessions and money in the hopes this would somehow make you a disciple, regardless if you were called to do this or not.

It's not a magic formula we follow - we only are to follow Christ.

luigi
Mar 22nd 2014, 11:02 PM
Amen. I wasn't implying otherwise. :) Only that the crowns of some may be adorned with a few more jewels than others.

But surely you would agree that those who are without are gifted with a greater measure of faith? :)

So you believe that those with a fridge who are used MIGHTILY cannot claim to be disciples of Christ?
The Lord does mightily use individuals who own fridges; but would those individuals who own a fridge not mean they have not forsaken all, and therefore not meet the criteria for being a disciple of Christ?

luigi
Mar 22nd 2014, 11:06 PM
This is what you said:


You've created a check list for what a true disciple is or isn't. You've also excluded any mention of a heart completely devoted to Christ, your explanations have only included getting rid of possessions and money in the hopes this would somehow make you a disciple, regardless if you were called to do this or not.

It's not a magic formula we follow - we only are to follow Christ.You are equating believer with disciple.
I would say that the vast majority on this forum are believers.
But I would also say that I doubt there is one true disciple of Christ on this forum (myself included).

Jake
Mar 22nd 2014, 11:07 PM
The Lord does mightily use individuals who own fridges; but would those individuals who own a fridge not mean they have not forsaken all, and therefore not meet the criteria for being a disciple of Christ?

Bro - seriously, you are not understanding the spiritual context of those verses, no offense intended here - but it's not a matter of giving all away, it's a matter of giving your entire heart to the Lord and doing what He tells you to do and in that conforming to Him.

He wants us to have families, children, pets, homes! If He plants us in a city and tells us to go and spread the good news there, it does not mean we have to live on the street corner in order to do this.

We are to take care of the poor - please answer this - how do we do this if we have nothing to give? Who is God calling to fill food banks? Please tell us.

Jake
Mar 22nd 2014, 11:10 PM
You are equating believer with disciple.
I would say that the vast majority on this forum are believers.
But I would also say that I doubt there is one true disciple of Christ on this forum (myself included).

Go and learn the definition of disciple.

Telling members of a Christian forum that they are not disciples - might not be a wise decision on your part. It seriously is judging those who you do not know. You have no idea where I came from and what God has called me to do or not to do - and you likewise for me, I don't know you.

You are reaching for something that is not there and missing the spiritual meaning of those verses.

luigi
Mar 22nd 2014, 11:17 PM
Bro - seriously, you are not understanding the spiritual context of those verses, no offense intended here - but it's not a matter of giving all away, it's a matter of giving your entire heart to the Lord and doing what He tells you to do and in that conforming to Him.

He wants us to have families, children, pets, homes! If He plants us in a city and tells us to go and spread the good news there, it does not mean we have to live on the street corner in order to do this.

We are to take care of the poor - please answer this - how do we do this if we have nothing to give? Who is God calling to fill food banks? Please tell us.
Jake, the Lord stated that His disciples would do the miracles He did, and even greater miracles.
Where do you see anyone changing water to wine, walking on water, raising the dead, or greater miracles than these?
This would be front page news if it were happening today, but it isn't.

You are changing the definition of the criteria for being a disciple of Christ, so that you can tell yourself that you are a disciple.
The simple TRUTH is most believers do not meet the criteria of being a disciple of Christ.

amazzin
Mar 22nd 2014, 11:22 PM
You are equating believer with disciple.
I would say that the vast majority on this forum are believers.
But I would also say that I doubt there is one true disciple of Christ on this forum (myself included).

This is wrong. The dictionary defines a disciple as, "Someone who follows another person or another way of life and who submits himself to the discipline (teaching) of that leader or way
The Bible says: Acts 6:1-2, 7. All those who were saved were called "disciples".

luigi
Mar 22nd 2014, 11:35 PM
This is wrong. The dictionary defines a disciple as, "Someone who follows another person or another way of life and who submits himself to the discipline (teaching) of that leader or way
The Bible says: Acts 6:1-2, 7. All those who were saved were called "disciples".
Yes amazzin, the dictionary definition of disciple is as you say, but the Lord says to be a disciple of His you are required to meet the criteria in Luke 14:26-27.
According to the dictionary definition of disciple I would say a great many of us believers on this forum are disciples of Christ (including myself).
But according to the criteria for a disciple of Christ in Luke 14:26-27, I would speculate no one on this forum meets this criteria for being a disciple of Christ (including myself).

amazzin
Mar 22nd 2014, 11:38 PM
You judge. That my brother is wrong


Yes amazzin, the dictionary definition of disciple is as you say, but the Lord says to be a disciple of His you are required to meet the criteria in Luke 14:26-27.
According to the dictionary definition of disciple I would say a great many of us believers on this forum are disciples of Christ (including myself).
But according to the criteria for a disciple of Christ in Luke 14:26-27, I would speculate no one on this forum meets this criteria for being a disciple of Christ (including myself).

luigi
Mar 22nd 2014, 11:42 PM
You judge. That my brother is wrong
You are right, there may be a couple of disciples on this forum who have done some of the miracles that the Lord did; I just haven't heard of them.

cuban
Mar 22nd 2014, 11:45 PM
The Lord does mightily use individuals who own fridges; but would those individuals who own a fridge not mean they have not forsaken all, and therefore not meet the criteria for being a disciple of Christ?

I don't believe it is to be taken literally as such; but I understand the call. It is no small matter to claim being a student of Christ.

Count the cost.

The implication is a willingness to follow, love, and cherish Christ even to the forsaking of all we hold dear;
IF we were faced with the decision, would we choose Christ or money?

IF our closest relative were to persecute us for seeking to obey the greatest commandment, would we seek to appease them?
Or would we follow Christ?

There are many enemies that would have us stumble along this path, and if one sets out on this journey unprepared...

Look at the context:

Luk 14:25 And great crowds came together to Him. And turning, He said to them,
Luk 14:26 If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brothers and sisters, and besides, even his own life, he cannot be My disciple.
Luk 14:27 And whoever does not bear his cross and come after Me, he cannot be My disciple.
Luk 14:28 For who of you desiring to build a tower does not first sit down and count the cost, whether he has the things to finish;
Luk 14:29 that having laid a foundation, and not having strength to finish, all those seeing begin to mock him,
Luk 14:30 saying, This man began to build, and did not have strength to finish.
Luk 14:31 Or what king going to attack another king in war does not first sit down and take counsel whether he is able with ten thousand to meet those coming upon him with twenty thousands?
Luk 14:32 But if not, he being still far off, sending a delegation, he asks the things for peace.
Luk 14:33 So then every one of you who does not abandon all his possessions is not able to be My disciple.
Luk 14:34 The salt is good, but if the salt becomes tasteless, with what will it be seasoned?
Luk 14:35 It is not fit for soil nor for manure; they throw it out. The one having ears to hear, let him hear.

The crowds were following Him, but at what cost would they be willing to continue in doing so? Were they prepared to endure affliction?
What is our heart's motive in seeking to follow his footsteps if unwilling to bear our cross of persecution?

A solemn warning, a notice; a profound instruction of what is expected of the Master's disciples.
Christ clearly explained the gravity of such a venture.

We must be willing to sever all ties of affection, all semblance of comfort. A noble cause of which few are able to confess truthfully in word and deed. And though we may stumble, He upholds us with His mighty hand.

A half-hearted man cannot fulfill the Royal Law. A man after God's heart cannot be split or torn. He must be given fully.

Scooby_Snacks
Mar 22nd 2014, 11:53 PM
I enjoyed what cuban shared here. ^^^^

I hate the thought that what God's works planned in advance for any of us could be derailed because those plans just does not seem to be what He literally says in His Word; when He is speaking directly to us through His Spirit to ours we have a direct link-- may the obstacles to faith be shattered, the path make clear and strait for all of us.

Time is wasted on storing up knowledge that conflicts with doing His actual will.

luigi
Mar 23rd 2014, 12:07 AM
We must be willing to sever all ties of affection, all semblance of comfort. A noble cause of which few are able to confess truthfully in word and deed. And though we may stumble, He upholds us with His mighty hand.

A half-hearted man cannot fulfill the Royal Law. A man after God's heart cannot be split or torn. He must be given fully.

Yes brother, we must be willing to sever all ties, and to sever them according to: Luk 14:33 So then every one of you who does not abandon all his possessions is not able to be My disciple.
In which case, we see that a half-hearted man (one who also cares for things in this world) cannot become a disciple of Christ.

Scooby_Snacks
Mar 23rd 2014, 12:17 AM
Yes brother, we must be willing to sever all ties, and to sever them according to: Luk 14:33 So then every one of you who does not abandon all his possessions is not able to be My disciple.
In which case, we see that a half-hearted man (one who also cares for things in this world) cannot become a disciple of Christ.

Well I guess if this were God's will for His children (abandoning all possessions and being physically homeless) all the Christians in the world would be wandering around preaching the Gospel, and there wouldn't be any of them teaching in schools, working in factories or doing surgical procedures.
There would be no Christian Police or firefighters, none who lay brick.
In fact all of the people who do these things must not have any real spiritual works prepared for them because they are not doing God's will of becoming homeless and without any possessions. Wow now.

cuban
Mar 23rd 2014, 12:28 AM
All in all, I do believe there is much merit in what brother luigi has shared here. For Christ Himself exhorts us that it is IMPOSSIBLE to love God AND money.

However, we shouldn't judge one another's "spiritual wealth" according to our respective "material wealth". All is the LORD's.

Christ's disciples are to be known by their Love for one another, not by a life of forsaking materialism.

John 13:34 I give a new commandment to you, that you should love one another; according as I loved you, you should also love one another.
John 13:35 By this all shall know that you are My disciples, if you have love among one another.

luigi
Mar 23rd 2014, 12:28 AM
Well I guess if this were God's will for His children (abandoning all possessions and being physically homeless) all the Christians in the world would be wandering around preaching the Gospel, and there wouldn't be any of them teaching in schools, working in factories or doing surgical procedures.
There would be no Christian Police or firefighters, none who lay brick.
In fact all of the people who do these things must not have any real spiritual works prepared for them because they are not doing God's will of becoming homeless and without any possessions. Wow now.At the risk of repeating myself: I'm not saying that the faithful church are to abandon all their possessions. There are only a few faithful who meet the qualifications for disciple who will have to abandon all their possessions.
In the New Testament we see disciples visiting the churches of God, who we see had property and families.
The disciples, however, left all that behind.

Scooby_Snacks
Mar 23rd 2014, 12:43 AM
At the risk of repeating myself: I'm not saying that the faithful church are to abandon all their possessions. There are only a few faithful who meet the qualifications for disciple who will have to abandon all their possessions.
In the New Testament we see disciples visiting the churches of God, who we see had property and families.
The disciples, however, left all that behind.

luigi,
I have never been lead to read The Apocrypha. In fact, I have been lead not to, when I indulged it for a short time.
I believe the study of it (as you have professed knowing it so well) could be hindering you.

You will not hear Amazzin, myself or Jake. You are not even fully hearing cuban who I know you have respect for.

So you stand alone among many believers in this definition of disciple.
Does that not concern you?
We don't converse with you because we care nothing for you, ya know?

luigi
Mar 23rd 2014, 01:02 AM
So you stand alone among many believers in this definition of disciple.
Does that not concern you?
We don't converse with you because we care nothing for you, ya know?

What concerns me Scooby Snacks is where what is so evident in scriptures is often spun to mean something else when one does not like what it says.

Where else when you read something like: you have to do this and this to be this; do you get someone spinning it to, you have to not do this and not do this to be this?

Signing off, and to all a good night.

Scooby_Snacks
Mar 23rd 2014, 01:31 AM
What concerns me Scooby Snacks is where what is so evident in scriptures is often spun to mean something else when one does not like what it says.

Where else when you read something like: you have to do this and this to be this; do you get someone spinning it to, you have to not do this and not do this to be this?

Signing off, and to all a good night.

I hope that you wake up in the morning praising God, that He moves in your life as intended, and that the work for the day in His rest will not only be sufficient, but will glorify Him and bring you joy.

cuban
Mar 23rd 2014, 01:36 AM
The essence of discipleship is self-denial.

Jas 5:1 Come now, rich ones, weep, howling over your hardships coming on.
Jas 5:2 Your riches have rotted, and your garments have become moth-eaten.
Jas 5:3 Your gold and silver have rusted over, and their poison will be a testimony to you, and will eat your flesh as fire. You heaped treasure in the last days.
Jas 5:4 Behold, the wages of the workmen who have reaped your fields cry out, being kept back by you. And the cries of the ones who have reaped have entered "into the ears of the Lord of Hosts." Isa. 5:9
Jas 5:5 You lived luxuriously on the earth, and lived for self-pleasure; you nourished your hearts as in a day of slaughter;
Jas 5:6 you condemned; you murdered the righteous; he does not resist you.
Jas 5:7 Therefore, brothers, be long-suffering until the coming of the Lord. Behold, the farmer waits for the precious fruit of the earth, being long-suffering over it until it may receive the early and the latter rain.
Jas 5:8 You also be long-suffering. Set your hearts firmly, because the coming of the Lord has drawn near.

Scooby_Snacks
Mar 23rd 2014, 01:41 AM
A great warning to those who trust in riches, and not in God.
Justice for those who wages were obviously not fair, while their employer flew around the world and being decadent and sinful.

It still doesn't really help us with just how much wealth is too much in God's eyes, or ours for believers?

cuban
Mar 23rd 2014, 02:57 AM
A great warning to those who trust in riches, and not in God.
Justice for those who wages were obviously not fair, while their employer flew around the world and being decadent and sinful.

It still doesn't really help us with just how much wealth is too much in God's eyes, or ours for believers?

None is too much or too little, for it is all His.


The verses I posted speak to the naturally loveless tendencies that tend to follow those whose god is mammon, yet claim to serve God.

We can easily identify when wealth becomes "too much". When it breeds double-mindedness. When we fail to possess the mind of Christ.

When our life's driving force is material gain; when the notions of "belly", "career", "ministry", or even family can replace our first true love.
When the spirit of pride takes hold and achievement within this beast system becomes priority over God's will for our lives.

We are placed as lamps in darkness, but we must shine with a distinct brilliance that is not of this world.
Our love for God must be pure and unadulterated. It must be set above all, which includes us and our desires.

Many of the multitude followed Jesus for the miracles, for the gain. I am sure they thought they did well, and Christ does want us to come to Him for all our needs.
But the message is, how much bread is enough? Many cannot be satisfied, and fail to fully accept that the bread from heaven is all-sufficient.

It is in this sense that Christ spoke to them all.


Regardless, we remain merely stewards of all that is temporal; for if even we ourselves are not our own, then what can we truly lay claim to this side of eternity? :)

"Every man is vanity. Selah."

cuban
Mar 23rd 2014, 02:58 AM
Mat 6:19 Do not treasure up for you treasures on the earth, where moth and rust cause to perish, and where thieves dig through and steal.
Mat 6:20 But treasure up for you treasures in Heaven, where neither moth nor rust cause to perish, and where thieves do not dig through and steal.
Mat 6:21 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
Mat 6:22 The lamp of the body is the eye. Then if your eye is sound, all your body is light.
Mat 6:23 But if your eye is evil, all your body is dark. If, then, the light in you is darkness, how great is the darkness!
Mat 6:24 No one is able to serve two lords; for either he will hate the one, and he will love the other; or he will cleave to the one, and he will despise the other. You are not able to serve God and wealth.
Mat 6:25 Because of this, I say to you, Do not be anxious for your soul, what you eat and what you drink, nor for your body, what you put on. Is not the soul more than the food and the body than the clothing?
Mat 6:26 Observe the birds of the heaven, that they do not sow, nor do they reap, nor do they gather into barns, yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Do you not rather excel them?
Mat 6:27 But who of you by being anxious is able to add one cubit onto his stature?
Mat 6:28 And why are you anxious about clothing? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow. They do not labor nor do they spin,
Mat 6:29 but I say to you that not even Solomon in all his glory was clothed as one of these.
Mat 6:30 If God so enrobes the grass of the field (which is today, and is thrown into a furnace tomorrow) will He not much rather you, little-faiths?
Mat 6:31 Then do not be anxious, saying, What may we eat? Or, what may we drink? Or, what may clothe us?
Mat 6:32 For after all these things the nations seek. For your heavenly Father knows that you have need of all these things.
Mat 6:33 But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.
Mat 6:34 Then do not be anxious for tomorrow. For the morrow will be anxious of itself. Sufficient to each day is its own trouble.

Jake
Mar 23rd 2014, 03:11 AM
Jake, the Lord stated that His disciples would do the miracles He did, and even greater miracles.
Where do you see anyone changing water to wine, walking on water, raising the dead, or greater miracles than these?
This would be front page news if it were happening today, but it isn't.

You are changing the definition of the criteria for being a disciple of Christ, so that you can tell yourself that you are a disciple.
The simple TRUTH is most believers do not meet the criteria of being a disciple of Christ.

Miracles are happening all the time, it amazes me when believers say they aren't. Even if the news did happen to cover a miracle, we would have skeptical believers say it was rigged, others would say it didn't really happen.

Do you think good news sells newspapers? No, it doesn't, what does is bad news, violence, and sex. They seriously aren't going to give any credit to the Christian God that's for sure even if they did cover a miracle story. You should go down to your local Children's Hospital and hear about all those miracles. Go listen to someone who God healed from cancer, from MS, etc. There are people who have been raised from the dead. How do people not hear of them?

You are reading the letter of the law and not the Spirit and when that happens legalism is birthed. The Bible points us to Christ and it teaches us how to follow the Spirit, not everything God will ask you to do is found in the Bible. If he tells you to write a book - isn't that direction coming from His Spirit and not necessarily through His written Word. What if He told you go buy 5 Bible's for no apparent reason at all - where is this written in the Word.

A sign was laying on the ground at a gas station (someone had knocked it over, it's about 4 ft tall, and advertisement), the Lord prompted me to pick it up - I was running late - I didn't want to pick it up but I did and when I delivered it to the cashier, he had a cast on his foot and using crutches so there was no way he could have picked it up. He was grateful, I said you're welcome and God bless, he was so excited that I was a Christian because God was prompting him to go to church, I invited him to church and met him there tonight. That's the Spirit teaching and leading me - I didn't have to run back and check in the Bible to see if there was something on this....

...and yes, I did go to a service on a Saturday night - and it rocked. :)

Scooby_Snacks
Mar 23rd 2014, 10:44 AM
None is too much or too little, for it is all His.


The verses I posted speak to the naturally loveless tendencies that tend to follow those whose god is mammon, yet claim to serve God.

We can easily identify when wealth becomes "too much". When it breeds double-mindedness. When we fail to possess the mind of Christ.

When our life's driving force is material gain; when the notions of "belly", "career", "ministry", or even family can replace our first true love.
When the spirit of pride takes hold and achievement within this beast system becomes priority over God's will for our lives.

We are placed as lamps in darkness, but we must shine with a distinct brilliance that is not of this world.
Our love for God must be pure and unadulterated. It must be set above all, which includes us and our desires.

Many of the multitude followed Jesus for the miracles, for the gain. I am sure they thought they did well, and Christ does want us to come to Him for all our needs.
But the message is, how much bread is enough? Many cannot be satisfied, and fail to fully accept that the bread from heaven is all-sufficient.

It is in this sense that Christ spoke to them all.


Regardless, we remain merely stewards of all that is temporal; for if even we ourselves are not our own, then what can we truly lay claim to this side of eternity? :)

"Every man is vanity. Selah."

Thanks for clarifying...well said.
We can't take it with us when we go!

Scooby_Snacks
Mar 23rd 2014, 10:58 AM
A sign was laying on the ground at a gas station (someone had knocked it over, it's about 4 ft tall, and advertisement), the Lord prompted me to pick it up - I was running late - I didn't want to pick it up but I did and when I delivered it to the cashier, he had a cast on his foot and using crutches so there was no way he could have picked it up. He was grateful, I said you're welcome and God bless, he was so excited that I was a Christian because God was prompting him to go to church, I invited him to church and met him there tonight. That's the Spirit teaching and leading me - I didn't have to run back and check in the Bible to see if there was something on this....

...and yes, I did go to a service on a Saturday night - and it rocked.

Excellent testimony and example of hearing and heeding The Holy Spirit.
God's purpose served brings joy to Him, to those we come in contact with and to us!

Romans 8:15
The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by him we cry, "Abba, Father."

ContractKeeper
Mar 23rd 2014, 02:47 PM
Father have mercy on us...
Spiritual wealth is determined by who one serves ! (no other formula)

Money/Gold/silver is not evil, period.
The love of money/gold/silver is the evil thereof.

Dependance upon money is not evil either, period.
Love requires servitude, dependance does not require servitude !

Jesus depended on coin to enter city gates. His ministry depended on it then and still depends on it today to minister to the poor and to facilitate the ministry's logistics and maintenance.

On the earth, one either serves mammon with their obedience/love or serves God with their obedience/love. Who one serves is what determines one's spiritual wealth, and by default also determines their salvation.

(note) the love of money has it's root in pride.
Pride is the root to/of all sin, period.


Father have mercy on us.

Jake
Mar 23rd 2014, 03:24 PM
Money/Gold/silver is not evil, period.
The love of money/gold/silver is evil...
Dependance upon money is not evil either, period.
Love requires servitude, dependance does not require servitude !

Jesus depended on coin to enter city gates. His ministry depended on it then and still depends on it today to minister to the poor and to facilitate the ministry's logistics and maintenance.

"Spiritual wealth" is determined by who one serves. On the earth, one serves either mammon or God.
Who one serves is what determines one's spiritual wealth, and by default also determines their salvation.


Father have mercy on us.

Very well said.

In Hebrews 13:5 we're told -"5 Keep your lives free from the love of money and be content with what you have, because God has said,
“Never will I leave you; never will I forsake you.”"

It would appear the "love of money" is parallel to "be content with what you have", if we love money (as the world does), we will want more than what we have and the more money we make the more we will purchase. Right after God tells us to "be content with what we have", He promises He will always be there for us. He will fulfill our needs because He knows, He knows because He's always there.

I think this verse also is speaking of our contentment being grounded in freedom, if we are in a constant state of want, then we are not free. In contrast, if we are content, then there is freedom.

In Hebrews 10:34 it says "we have a greater possession and an abiding one".

It's a little off topic, but these verses are speaking of our possessions and how we should view those things the Lord has provided to us. Disciples are allowed to have "stuff" in their possessions, some have more, some have less - it's the love of these things and money that is dangerous.

Scooby_Snacks
Mar 26th 2014, 12:04 AM
Have not heard back from luigi, but in hopes that he is still reading, I did find a scripture that may show something more about the "heart" of matters when it comes to the rich who by the Power of God's goodness see their sin, repent and come to faith.

It also made me think of another thread..but that's another thread indeed. ;)

Luke 19:1-10

He entered Jericho and was passing through.
And behold, there was a man named Zacchaeus.
He was a chief tax collector and was rich.

And he was seeking to see who Jesus was, but on account of the crowd he could not, because he was small in stature.
So he ran on ahead and climbed up into a sycamore tree to see him, for he was about to pass that way.
And when Jesus came to the place, he looked up and said to him, “Zacchaeus, hurry and come down, for I must stay at your house today.”

So he hurried and came down and received him joyfully.
And when they saw it, they all grumbled, “He has gone in to be the guest of a man who is a sinner.”

And Zacchaeus stood and said to the Lord, “Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor.
And if I have defrauded anyone of anything, I restore it fourfold.”

And Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, since he also is a son of Abraham.
For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.”

luigi
Mar 28th 2014, 12:31 AM
Have not heard back from luigi, but in hopes that he is still reading, I did find a scripture that may show something more about the "heart" of matters when it comes to the rich who by the Power of God's goodness see their sin, repent and come to faith.

It also made me think of another thread..but that's another thread indeed. ;)

Luke 19:1-10

He entered Jericho and was passing through.
And behold, there was a man named Zacchaeus.
He was a chief tax collector and was rich.

And he was seeking to see who Jesus was, but on account of the crowd he could not, because he was small in stature.
So he ran on ahead and climbed up into a sycamore tree to see him, for he was about to pass that way.
And when Jesus came to the place, he looked up and said to him, “Zacchaeus, hurry and come down, for I must stay at your house today.”

So he hurried and came down and received him joyfully.
And when they saw it, they all grumbled, “He has gone in to be the guest of a man who is a sinner.”

And Zacchaeus stood and said to the Lord, “Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor.
And if I have defrauded anyone of anything, I restore it fourfold.”

And Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, since he also is a son of Abraham.
For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.”

Hello Scooby_Snacks,
I've been on a couple of other threads and completely forgot about this one.
Anyway, in regards to Zacchaeus and his wealth at the time he met the Lord; when another individual questioned Jesus as to how to obtain eternal life and why he had a lacking in his life, and the Lord in response told him to give up all he had in order to follow Him so that he would have riches in heaven, but that individual instead walked away (Matthew 19:16-23); do you think then that if Zacchaeus remained with the Lord and became His disciple, that he then kept his material possessions?

Scooby_Snacks
Mar 28th 2014, 01:08 AM
Hello Scooby_Snacks,
I've been on a couple of other threads and completely forgot about this one.
Anyway, in regards to Zacchaeus and his wealth at the time he met the Lord; when another individual questioned Jesus as to how to obtain eternal life and why he had a lacking in his life, and the Lord in response told him to give up all he had in order to follow Him so that he would have riches in heaven, but that individual instead walked away (Matthew 19:16-23); do you think then that if Zacchaeus remained with the Lord and became His disciple, that he then kept his material possessions?

I believe it is a heart issue that the Lord is addressing in Matthew 19:16-23.
Many followed Jesus for the benefits, not to actually learn of Him.
The state of the heart that wants to follow Jesus and learn of Him places Him first in their lives.
The rich man in Matthew 19 loved his wealth. It sorrowed him to part with it so much that he walked away.
He stated he had followed all the commandments, but he had not, because he did not admit he was a sinner, placing money before God.
For Zacchaeus, giving away half of what he owned and making the proper amends to those he took money from was showing a repentant heart that came to faith.

I do not believe everyone who came to faith became an Apostle-- or a missionary, but all are His disciples.

How do you learn of or follow Christ today? By His Word and by His Spirit. It was a bit different when Jesus was alive in His ministry...because disciples physically went with Him. Now He spiritually goes with us, teaching and guiding us, everywhere we go.

Brother Mark
Mar 28th 2014, 02:42 AM
It's definitely issues of the heart: "For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also." (Matt 6:21 & Lk 12:34)

And where your treasure and heart are can only be towards one master, Mammon or God (Matt 6:24).

So to me this definitely means; brethren who are materially rich are spiritually poor; and brethren who are materially poor are spiritually rich.

How do you explain Solomon who was made rich, because of his admission of poverty in wisdom?

luigi
Mar 28th 2014, 02:26 PM
I believe it is a heart issue that the Lord is addressing in Matthew 19:16-23.
Many followed Jesus for the benefits, not to actually learn of Him.
The state of the heart that wants to follow Jesus and learn of Him places Him first in their lives.
The rich man in Matthew 19 loved his wealth. It sorrowed him to part with it so much that he walked away.
He stated he had followed all the commandments, but he had not, because he did not admit he was a sinner, placing money before God.
For Zacchaeus, giving away half of what he owned and making the proper amends to those he took money from was showing a repentant heart that came to faith.




Maybe the rich man loved his wealth, or maybe he just did not want to part with it, as wealth meant security and the comforts of life just as it does today.

So as to your claim that it is a state of the heart; I agree, to the extent that you can only love one master while hating the other.
As to your claim that it is a matter of which master you place first in your lives being all that counts; well we can see that after the Lord told the rich man which laws to obey, and the rich man responded that he had followed all these laws since his youth; that the rich man was then more mindful and reverent of God than most people are today.
While you claim the rich man lied to Jesus in that he did not follow all the commandments Jesus informed him of; I on the other hand believe the rich man did follow the laws the Lord pointed out to him, otherwise the Lord would have made it clear to him which laws he was breaking. Instead the Lord pointed out the rich mans wealth as the cause for his spiritual poverty.

Jake
Mar 28th 2014, 02:29 PM
luigi

You never did answer my questions in regards to feeding the poor, filling up food banks, giving money to those who do the work of God (there are verses about this as you well know).

If all Christians were sunk in poverty without resources to care for others - then why did God call us to take care of the poor and give money to our leaders?

Your theology does not line up with verses in the Bible, you actually contradict them.

luigi
Mar 28th 2014, 02:55 PM
How do you explain Solomon who was made rich, because of his admission of poverty in wisdom?Because Solomon requested understanding from the Lord instead of great material wealth, the Lord decided to also provide Solomon with honor and great material wealth. (1 Kings 3:9:13)

Nevertheless, Solomon was later influenced by the idols his many wives possessed (due to his great wealth in providing abundantly for them), that in the end resulted in Solomons heart being drawn away from the Lord.

So while Solomon was rich both spiritually and materially when the Lord bestowed these gifts upon him; I also see Solomon loosing his spiritual wealth while approaching his end, due indirectly to his great material wealth.

So now if Solomon the wisest of kings fell due to his material wealth, will less wise individuals fare better in differentiating between God and Mammon?

Brother Mark
Mar 28th 2014, 03:30 PM
Because Solomon requested understanding from the Lord instead of great material wealth, the Lord decided to also provide Solomon with honor and great material wealth. (1 Kings 3:9:13)

Nevertheless, Solomon was later influenced by the idols his many wives possessed (due to his great wealth in providing abundantly for them), that in the end resulted in Solomons heart being drawn away from the Lord.

So while Solomon was rich both spiritually and materially when the Lord bestowed these gifts upon him; I also see Solomon loosing his spiritual wealth while approaching his end, due indirectly to his great material wealth.

So now if Solomon the wisest of kings fell due to his material wealth, will less wise individuals fare better in differentiating between God and Mammon?

He didn't fall because of his wealth. He fell because he went after many wives. God warned him against that and he did it anyway.

1 Kings 11:1-5

11 Now King Solomon loved many foreign women along with the daughter of Pharaoh: Moabite, Ammonite, Edomite, Sidonian, and Hittite women, 2 from the nations concerning which the Lord had said to the sons of Israel, "You shall not associate with them, nor shall they associate with you, for they will surely turn your heart away after their gods." Solomon held fast to these in love. 3 He had seven hundred wives, princesses, and three hundred concubines, and his wives turned his heart away. 4 For when Solomon was old, his wives turned his heart away after other gods; and his heart was not wholly devoted to the Lord his God, as the heart of David his father had been.
NASU

So again, why would God bless Solomon with lots of money if having money was wrong? (God didn't bless Solomon with lots of wives. God warned Solomon that the women would lead his heart astray.)

Does God give bad gifts or good ones?

Matt 7:11
11 "If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give what is good to those who ask Him!
NASU

luigi
Mar 28th 2014, 04:51 PM
He didn't fall because of his wealth. He fell because he went after many wives. God warned him against that and he did it anyway.

1 Kings 11:1-5

11 Now King Solomon loved many foreign women along with the daughter of Pharaoh: Moabite, Ammonite, Edomite, Sidonian, and Hittite women, 2 from the nations concerning which the Lord had said to the sons of Israel, "You shall not associate with them, nor shall they associate with you, for they will surely turn your heart away after their gods." Solomon held fast to these in love. 3 He had seven hundred wives, princesses, and three hundred concubines, and his wives turned his heart away. 4 For when Solomon was old, his wives turned his heart away after other gods; and his heart was not wholly devoted to the Lord his God, as the heart of David his father had been.

Solomon fell because his heart went after the gods his many wives had.
As God is Love; other gods are loves (things/idols) his many wives loved, that in turn caused Solomons heart to turn to these things/idols/gods/loves.

Brother Mark
Mar 28th 2014, 05:01 PM
Solomon fell because his heart went after the gods his many wives had.
As God is Love; other gods are loves (things/idols) his many wives loved, that in turn caused Solomons heart to turn to these things/idols/gods/loves.

Correct. He did not fall away from God because he had wealth which God had given him. Since God only gives good gifts, then we know that wealth from God is not evil.

luigi
Mar 28th 2014, 05:25 PM
Correct. He did not fall away from God because he had wealth which God had given him. Since God only gives good gifts, then we know that wealth from God is not evil.
These gods/loves/idols/things are obtained with Mammon. The more Mammon, the more gods/loves/idols/things that are obtained, which his wives obtained due to Solomon's great material wealth, and thus caused Solomon to fall.

Brother Mark
Mar 28th 2014, 05:28 PM
These gods/loves/idols/things are obtained with Mammon. The more Mammon, the more gods/loves/idols/things that are obtained, which his wives obtained due to Solomon's great material wealth, and thus caused Solomon to fall.

Nowhere does scripture say Solomon got more wives because he had money. What scripture do you use to justify it was Solomon's wealth that obtained his wives? (It was more political than wealth.)

Again, keep in mind you are saying that God gave something evil to Solomon. How does that square with this verse?

Luke 11:9-13

9 "So I say to you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 10 "For everyone who asks, receives; and he who seeks, finds; and to him who knocks, it will be opened. 11 "Now suppose one of you fathers is asked by his son for a fish; he will not give him a snake instead of a fish, will he? 12 "Or if he is asked for an egg, he will not give him a scorpion, will he? 13 "If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him?"
NASU

or this one

Matt 7:11
11 "If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give what is good to those who ask Him!
NASU

luigi
Mar 28th 2014, 05:48 PM
Nowhere does scripture say Solomon got more wives because he had money. What scripture do you use to justify it was Solomon's wealth that obtained his wives? (It was more political than wealth.)

Again, keep in mind you are saying that God gave something evil to Solomon. How does that square with this verse?

Luke 11:9-13

9 "So I say to you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 10 "For everyone who asks, receives; and he who seeks, finds; and to him who knocks, it will be opened. 11 "Now suppose one of you fathers is asked by his son for a fish; he will not give him a snake instead of a fish, will he? 12 "Or if he is asked for an egg, he will not give him a scorpion, will he? 13 "If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him?"
NASU

or this one

Matt 7:11
11 "If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give what is good to those who ask Him!
NASU
Even though it only follows that Solomon did obtain many wives because he could afford to do so; I nevertheless did not state that Solomon got more wives because of his great material wealth.
What I said in so many words is that Solomon having great material wealth, which would mean his wives being made well off financially through his largess, would then have procured gods/loves/idols/things with Mammon; and thus Mammon became the indirect cause for Solomon to fall. Money is the root of all evil.

Bandit
Mar 28th 2014, 05:57 PM
"Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:" (Rev 3:17)

From my understanding of this verse; to be materially wealthy, means spiritual poverty.

Corroborating this perspective further is: "Let the brother of low degree rejoice in that he is exalted: But the rich, in that he is made low: because as the flower of the grass he shall pass away." (James 1:9-10)

From my understanding of this verse, our brethren who have few material possessions are they who are wealthy in spirit, while our materially rich brethren are the poor in spirit.







Hello luigi,

I am late to this thread and wanted to reply before I saw any other replies. I think the point Jesus is making in Rev. 3:17 is that these thought they were spiritually rich (i.e., they thought they were saved) but He (Jesus) is telling them otherwise. I don't see this as having anything to do with material wealth. This is a church (people) who thought they were in a right position with God, but God (Jesus) says they are totally off course. Again, I see nothing here which connects to material wealth - just spiritual blindness.

Brother Mark
Mar 28th 2014, 05:58 PM
Even though it only follows that Solomon did obtain many wives because he could afford to do so; I nevertheless did not state that Solomon got more wives because of his great material wealth.
What I said in so many words is that Solomon having great material wealth, which would mean his wives being made well off financially through his largess, would then have procured gods/loves/idols/things with Mammon; and thus Mammon became the indirect cause for Solomon to fall. Money is the root of all evil.

So when Solomon asked for wisdom God gave him a serpent?

Bandit
Mar 28th 2014, 06:01 PM
...

So to me this definitely means; brethren who are materially rich are spiritually poor; and brethren who are materially poor are spiritually rich.

No, luigi, this is not what this verse is addressing. A rich man (like Noah, Abraham, David, etc.) can also be spiritually rich. And a poor man can be spiritually blind. Rev. 3:17 has to do with spiritual poverty (thinking one is rich - saved - when one is not). This verse has nothing to do with material wealth.

Bandit
Mar 28th 2014, 06:09 PM
And yet when someone said to Jesus that he would always follow him anywhere He would go, Jesus responded: "...foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of man hath no where to lay His head." (Lk 9:57-58)
So while Judas Iscariot was the treasurer, held the money bag, and was a thief; he also apparently was no where to be found to rent a room, thereby indicating Jesus and his true cohorts having no money on their persons, with their dependence on God and not Mammon.

Again, you are reading more into these verses than the writers intended. Spiritual rightness before God cannot be measured by (or tied to) one's material position. So, if I am an evil and corrupt person, and I waste all my money on evil living, have I thereby become rich before God? This seems to be the kind of thing you are saying.

Bandit
Mar 28th 2014, 06:13 PM
I suspect that everyone on this forum knows that God sends people who have mammon, to provide for others who do not have sufficient food, clothing, and other necessities.
I do not, however, agree with your premise that the materially rich individual that gives of his abundance, is also spiritually rich.
That would contradict the scriptures I previously posted, and would therefore be denying Gods Word.

But wait! Was not Abraham rich? And was not also King David? So has God damned them to hell because He also blessed them materially? If so, then God damns those He blesses.

luigi
Mar 28th 2014, 06:13 PM
Hello luigi,

I am late to this thread and wanted to reply before I saw any other replies. I think the point Jesus is making in Rev. 3:17 is that these thought they were spiritually rich (i.e., they thought they were saved) but He (Jesus) is telling them otherwise. I don't see this as having anything to do with material wealth. This is a church (people) who thought they were in a right position with God, but God (Jesus) says they are totally off course. Again, I see nothing here which connects to material wealth - just spiritual blindness.Hello Bandit,
I agree that the Laodicean church members believed they were spiritually rich, but were instead spiritually poor.
Nevertheless, for the Laodicean church members to say to themselves,"... I am rich, and increased with much goods, and have need of nothing...", this clearly indicates these individuals were very well off financially, and thus probably equated their being well off financially to having being blessed by God with spiritual wealth as well, when in reality they were unaware of their true state, being wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked. (Rev 3:17)

Bandit
Mar 28th 2014, 06:24 PM
Hello Bandit,
I agree that the Laodicean church members believed they were spiritually rich, but were instead spiritually poor.
Nevertheless, for the Laodicean church members to say to themselves,"... I am rich, and increased with much goods, and have need of nothing...", this clearly indicates these individuals were very well off financially, and thus probably equated their being well off financially to having being blessed by God with spiritual wealth as well, when in reality they were unaware of their true state, being wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked. (Rev 3:17)

Yes, I agree that persons who are well-off (and consider themselves to be Christians) can mistake their material blessings for spiritual. But from what I have seen in this thread, you are making too much over this. Not every rich person is damned, and not every poor person is saved. In this particular church, yes, they were assuming that since everything was going right for them financially, that everything was right spiritually. But not everyone thinks this way (nor should they).

luigi
Mar 28th 2014, 06:46 PM
Yes, I agree that persons who are well-off (and consider themselves to be Christians) can mistake their material blessings for spiritual. But from what I have seen in this thread, you are making too much over this. Not every rich person is damned, and not every poor person is saved. In this particular church, yes, they were assuming that since everything was going right for them financially, that everything was right spiritually. But not everyone thinks this way (nor should they).I'm not saying every rich person, or rich believing person is dammed, I am just saying that most materially rich believers are in likelihood spiritually poor, and that they are unaware of their true conditions as in the case of the Laodicean church.
I also did I state that every materially poor person is saved. Nevertheless, every materially poor person would have considerably less influence from Mammon in their procuring things/idols/gods/loves.
I can agree that there may be some materially rich believers who do not think the way the Laodicean church did, but take a look at Solomon, who being the wisest of kings, nevertheless was brought down by things/idols/gods/loves.

luigi
Mar 28th 2014, 06:52 PM
So when Solomon asked for wisdom God gave him a serpent?Good question.
I don't know. Maybe God wanted to show us how even though He had blessed Solomon with great wisdom, this wisdom was not enough to combat Mammon.
If so, the materially rich brethren should then definitely be cautious, seeing how he or she could easily fall away as did Solomon.

Bandit
Mar 28th 2014, 06:54 PM
I'm not saying every rich person, or rich believing person is dammed, I am just saying that most materially rich believers are in likelihood spiritually poor, and that they are unaware of their true conditions as in the case of the Laodicean church.
I also did I state that every materially poor person is saved. Nevertheless, every materially poor person would have considerably less influence from Mammon in their procuring things/idols/gods/loves.
I can agree that there may be some materially rich believers who do not think the way the Laodicean church did, but take a look at Solomon, who being the wisest of kings, nevertheless was brought down by things/idols/gods/loves.

Yes, Solomon is an example of a rich man turning from God, but what of Abraham, Noah, Job, and King David? I think the point is that there are those who will base their spiritual standing before God on their physical wealth, and there are those who will not do so. I can believe that many will do so, even a majority, but scripture does not teach that one's spiritual standing is oppositly related to one's material standing. A truly spiritual person will realize that these two need not be correlated in any way. (But a saved person who is rich will seek to help the poor.)

luigi
Mar 28th 2014, 07:10 PM
Yes, Solomon is an example of a rich man turning from God, but what of Abraham, Noah, Job, and King David? I think the point is that there are those who will base their spiritual standing before God on their physical wealth, and there are those who will not do so. I can believe that many will do so, even a majority, but scripture does not teach that one's spiritual standing is oppositly related to one's material standing. A truly spiritual person will realize that these two need not be correlated in any way. (But a saved person who is rich will seek to help the poor.)

It may be possible that even a majority of materially well off believers will be wiser than Solomon in not falling, but I wouldn't count on it.

While the bible does not specifically state ones spiritual standing is directly opposite to one's material standing; the scripture stating where you can only love one master while hating the other, describes that concept.

Brother Mark
Mar 28th 2014, 07:12 PM
Good question.
I don't know. Maybe God wanted to show us how even though He had blessed Solomon with great wisdom, this wisdom was not enough to combat Mammon.
If so, the materially rich brethren should then definitely be cautious, seeing how he or she could easily fall away as did Solomon.

We do know. Scripture tells us.

Matt 7:9-11
9 "Or what man is there among you who, when his son asks for a loaf, will give him a stone? 10 "Or if he asks for a fish, he will not give him a snake, will he? 11 "If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give what is good to those who ask Him!
NASU

We can rest assured that if a man asks for wisdom, God will not give him a serpent. We, being evil, know how to give good gifts. Our Father in heaven knows even better. When Solomon asked for wisdom, God did not give him an evil gift.

Like Bandit points out, if wealth was the problem, then what of Abraham? Or Barnabas? Or David?

Bandit
Mar 28th 2014, 07:36 PM
It may be possible that even a majority of materially well off believers will be wiser than Solomon in not falling, but I wouldn't count on it.

While the bible does not specifically state ones spiritual standing is directly opposite to one's material standing; the scripture stating where you can only love one master while hating the other, describes that concept.

Hello luigi,

The concept that you mention is that a person cannot serve both God and riches. It does not mean that a rich person cannot serve God, but if he thinks his security is in his riches, and he pursues riches, he errors. Having riches is not the problem; it is one's attitude toward those riches which can be the problem. And if any rich out there are listening, I would advise you to be rich toward God. God has given you a great blessing, use this blessing to be a blessing to others.

luigi
Mar 28th 2014, 07:37 PM
We do know. Scripture tells us.

Matt 7:9-11
9 "Or what man is there among you who, when his son asks for a loaf, will give him a stone? 10 "Or if he asks for a fish, he will not give him a snake, will he? 11 "If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give what is good to those who ask Him!
NASU

We can rest assured that if a man asks for wisdom, God will not give him a serpent. We, being evil, know how to give good gifts. Our Father in heaven knows even better. When Solomon asked for wisdom, God did not give him an evil gift.

Like Bandit points out, if wealth was the problem, then what of Abraham? Or Barnabas? Or David?
Brother Mark,
You seem to be equating our Father who is in heaven who gives what is good to those who ask of Him, to represent material blessings.
In contrast the Lord states to seek the things which are above and that the (basic) things that your physical body requires would also be added.

There are always special cases for varying reasons why God would want a follower to have material wealth.
Abraham was wealthy at times, and at other times he wasn't, and as such I wonder if God was testing him. Otherwise, I do not know for certain why God allowed Abraham to be materially wealthy.
David, and Solomon, being kings would have required more than life's basic necessities in order to interact with other world leaders.
In the case of Barnabas, maybe the Lord did not want His Christ to be buried in the ground, and thereby required a rich mans tomb.

luigi
Mar 28th 2014, 07:51 PM
Hello luigi,

The concept that you mention is that a person cannot serve both God and riches. It does not mean that a rich person cannot serve God, but if he thinks his security is in his riches, and he pursues riches, he errors. Having riches is not the problem; it is one's attitude toward those riches which can be the problem. And if any rich out there are listening, I would advise you to be rich toward God. God has given you a great blessing, use this blessing to be a blessing to others.
The verse is that a person cannot serve God and Mammon. Your definition on the meaning of this verse on one's attitude toward riches which can be the problem, is what we have already established; to which I have stated there are very few from the materially wealthy who would also be spiritually wealthy with God.

Brother Mark
Mar 28th 2014, 08:09 PM
Brother Mark,
You seem to be equating our Father who is in heaven who gives what is good to those who ask of Him, to represent material blessings.

No. What I am saying is that any gift God gives does not come with sorrows attached to it. It has no hooks in it like bait does. I am saying that God only gives good gifts. Therefore, when he gave Solomon riches, it was a good gift.

God would not give a man a serpent that was asking for wisdom. We know that from what the NT teaches about God and his ability to give.

It would be wrong to say wealth is evil if scriptures don't say it. God didn't warn us about riches. He warned us about the deceitfulness of riches, about pursuing riches, about quick riches, and about trusting in riches etc. But he also spoke about how he gave us the ability to generate wealth. Not everyone will be poor and not every one will be rich. The money itself is not the issue. As another once said, money makes a good servant but a bad master. That was Jesus point. Either you serve God or you serve mammon.

Brother Mark
Mar 28th 2014, 08:14 PM
The verse is that a person cannot serve God and Mammon. Your definition on the meaning of this verse on one's attitude toward riches which can be the problem, is what we have already established; to which I have stated there are very few from the materially wealthy who would also be spiritually wealthy with God.

There's a difference between serving money and having money. Having money is not the issue. Serving it is.

luigi
Mar 28th 2014, 08:59 PM
No. What I am saying is that any gift God gives does not come with sorrows attached to it. It has no hooks in it like bait does. I am saying that God only gives good gifts. Therefore, when he gave Solomon riches, it was a good gift.

God would not give a man a serpent that was asking for wisdom. We know that from what the NT teaches about God and his ability to give.

It would be wrong to say wealth is evil if scriptures don't say it. God didn't warn us about riches. He warned us about the deceitfulness of riches, about pursuing riches, about quick riches, and about trusting in riches etc. But he also spoke about how he gave us the ability to generate wealth. Not everyone will be poor and not every one will be rich. The money itself is not the issue. As another once said, money makes a good servant but a bad master. That was Jesus point. Either you serve God or you serve mammon.

You are correct that God did not provide Solomon the gift of material wealth only to have sorrows attached to it.
In order to avert some of the sorrows that oftentimes accompany great wealth, God gave Solomon warning on not taking on too many wives; to which Solomon's great wisdom apparently deceived him into believing himself capable of handling.

Brother Mark
Mar 28th 2014, 09:19 PM
You are correct that God did not provide Solomon the gift of material wealth only to have sorrows attached to it.
In order to avert some of the sorrows that oftentimes accompany great wealth, God gave Solomon warning on not taking on too many wives; to which Solomon's great wisdom apparently deceived him into believing himself capable of handling.

No. God did not give a warning to Solomon about many wives in order to "avert some of the sorrows that accompany great wealth". he gave the warning about wives to help Solomon avoid having his heart go after other Gods.

Now you are saying Solomon's wisdom deceived him?

So let me get this straight. God gave Solomon money, which led him astray and God gave Solomon wisdom that deceived him? Sorry bro, but that doesn't line up with what the scriptures say about gifts from God.

The point made above is worth making again... there's a difference between having money and serving money.

luigi
Mar 28th 2014, 09:41 PM
It would be wrong to say wealth is evil if scriptures don't say it. God didn't warn us about riches. He warned us about the deceitfulness of riches, about pursuing riches, about quick riches, and about trusting in riches etc. But he also spoke about how he gave us the ability to generate wealth. Not everyone will be poor and not every one will be rich. The money itself is not the issue. As another once said, money makes a good servant but a bad master. That was Jesus point. Either you serve God or you serve mammon.

God does warn us about material riches.

Luke 8:14
"And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection."

Luke 18:24
"...How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!"

Matthew 13:22
He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.

Mark 4:19
And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful

Mark 10:25 "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God."



I have a hypothetical scenario for you Brother Mark.
Suppose a couple of million dollars were to drop in your lap, would you not immediately celebrate, and then go out and purchase a couple of new chariots for the driveway, and then plan a nice vacation where you could then dream where to invest the remainder?
Even if you say no to one of these items, this scenario is pretty much what the vast majority of us have thought about many times.
In which case, upon becoming rich we were then to do these things, and thus live for our flesh, how could such individuals then be considered spiritually wealthy as well? They can't.
The Spirit and the flesh are therefore contrary to each other.

luigi
Mar 28th 2014, 09:45 PM
No. God did not give a warning to Solomon about many wives in order to "avert some of the sorrows that accompany great wealth". he gave the warning about wives to help Solomon avoid having his heart go after other Gods.
.
I stand corrected on the nuances for Solomon's fall in relation to his many wives.

Bandit
Mar 28th 2014, 09:48 PM
...
I have a hypothetical scenario for you Brother Mark.
Suppose a couple of million dollars were to drop in your lap, would you not immediately celebrate, and then go out and purchase a couple of new chariots for the driveway, and then plan a nice vacation where you could then dream where to invest the remainder?
Even if you say no to one of these items, this scenario is pretty much what the vast majority of us have thought about many times.
In which case, upon becoming rich we were then to do these things, and thus live for our flesh, how could such individuals then be considered spiritually wealthy as well? They can't.
The Spirit and the flesh are therefore contrary to each other.

Hello luigi,

Your assumption here is that any and all who were suddenly enriched would simply spend it on themselves, but there are many Godly persons who would see such as an opportunity to become a blessing to others. As for me, I would welcome the opportunity to become a blessing to others, and would do so humbly.

luigi
Mar 28th 2014, 09:49 PM
Now you are saying Solomon's wisdom deceived him?


Solomon's pride, and therefore confidence in himself (his wisdom) made him disregard Gods warning, thinking himself capable of handling the situation.

luigi
Mar 28th 2014, 09:57 PM
So let me get this straight. God gave Solomon money, which led him astray and God gave Solomon wisdom that deceived him? Sorry bro, but that doesn't line up with what the scriptures say about gifts from God.

The point made above is worth making again... there's a difference between having money and serving money.

While I did not put it as you have reworded my statement; yes, money the root of all evil, led Solomon astray through his wives loves of many things/idols, which turned Solomon's heart toward these things/idols. And that his wisdom which he had confidence in and caused him to disregard Gods warning, was insufficient in combating the desires of his flesh.

luigi
Mar 28th 2014, 10:14 PM
Hello luigi,

Your assumption here is that any and all who were suddenly enriched would simply spend it on themselves, but there are many Godly persons who would see such as an opportunity to become a blessing to others. As for me, I would welcome the opportunity to become a blessing to others, and would do so humbly.
Hi Bandit,
I and every other believing Christian on this forum would provide to others and therefore be of benefit to others. This, however, does not change the fact that the materially wealthy, do live for their flesh.
If you had a couple of million, would you be driving some old wreck of transportation?
Would you not buy a new dream vehicle with all the bells and whistles, and thus be idol minded?
Would you not eat at the finest restaurants, and thus be gastronomically minded?
Would you not buy the best clothing, and thus be fashion minded?

Money and living for the flesh go hand in hand.

Bandit
Mar 28th 2014, 10:30 PM
Hi Bandit,
I and every other believing Christian on this forum would provide to others and therefore be of benefit to others. This, however, does not change the fact that the materially wealthy, do live for their flesh.
If you had a couple of million, would you be driving some old wreck of transportation?
Would you not buy a new dream vehicle with all the bells and whistles, and thus be idol minded?
Would you not eat at the finest restaurants, and thus be gastronomically minded?
Would you not buy the best clothing, and thus be fashion minded?

Money and living for the flesh go hand in hand.

You evidently don't know me.

luigi
Mar 28th 2014, 10:41 PM
You evidently don't know me.
No I don't know you, that's true.
I speak for the vast majority of us basically, who will not be like the less than 1% who would give it all away to charity.

But let's say hypothetically, that you, me, and every other believing Christian on this forum would over several years give half of their two million to serve others; what would that believing Christian upon returning home daily then do with his or her remaining million? Would they not then indulge themselves in the items mentioned in post #114?
Of course they would. The only other alternative would be to invest it and watch it accrue interest, thereby tintelating their hearts with mammon.

Scooby_Snacks
Mar 29th 2014, 08:46 AM
Maybe the rich man loved his wealth, or maybe he just did not want to part with it, as wealth meant security and the comforts of life just as it does today.

I think it all goes together, why not..

Matthew 10:39
Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.



So as to your claim that it is a state of the heart;

A state that Jesus knows of every individual person.


I agree, to the extent that you can only love one master while hating the other.
As to your claim that it is a matter of which master you place first in your lives being all that counts;

The problem here is that I made no such claim.
Look again.



well we can see that after the Lord told the rich man which laws to obey, and the rich man responded that he had followed all these laws since his youth; that the rich man was then more mindful and reverent of God than most people are today.

I have a tendency to see people who claim to be righteous in a different light than this.



While you claim the rich man lied to Jesus in that he did not follow all the commandments Jesus informed him of; I on the other hand believe the rich man did follow the laws the Lord pointed out to him, otherwise the Lord would have made it clear to him which laws he was breaking.


Again, I made no such claim that the man lied to Jesus.
He really thought he was righteous, so he didn't know he was a sinner like all who fall short of His Glory.
He was blind to this particular.
My point was that no one followed all the commandments
except for Jesus.
This scripture explains my train of thought.

Isaiah 64:6
We have all become like one who is unclean,
and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment.
We all fade like a leaf,
and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.




Instead the Lord pointed out the rich mans wealth as the cause for his spiritual poverty.
I believe he pointed out that the mans riches were keeping him from seeing his need for Christ.
He wanted to enter the Kingdom of God, without surrendering his life.