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Aijalon
May 19th 2014, 06:53 PM
τοῦ βαπτίσματος εἰς τὸν θάνατον
tou baptismatos into ton thanaton
("baptism into death")

This verse was posted on screen prior to a baptism which took place at my church - Romans 6:4, there are a number of English ways to read it.


Context: Romans 5:21 > 6:7

21so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. 1What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? 2May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? 3Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. 5For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; 7for he who has died is freed from sin. (NASB)

Before breaking out a heavy load of Greek, here is the way in which I asked myself about the different ways to read verse 4. I have inserted dashes to assist into two reading for emphasis sake:

1) Therefore we have been buried with him - through baptism - into death
2) Therefore we have been buried with him through - baptism into death.

As I thought of what these different readings could imply... I realized I would need to get deeper into the Greek. Without any conception of what I would find, I have become aware that at times, articles "a" and "the" are omitted by the translators that can clarify things for us. :(

The reason I have posted the NASB above, is that it has used a sort of "clean up" method in omitting some Greek articles that appear, perhaps "unnecessary" in English. But I ask: "if read aloud in the churches of Rome, should we not read with them also?" (meaning every Greek word).

The Greek reads, word for word:

[we were baptized] [therefore] [of/into him] [the/one] [baptism] [into] [the/one] [death].
http://biblehub.com/interlinear/romans/6-4.htm

The blue is omitted by the NASB. To diagnose the reason why the translators omitted the articles, I suggest that NASB inserts context as it appears to them to defining personal baptism (my guess of their view - a baptism perhaps either by water, or spirit, but in either case, related to our personal baptism event).

However, the NASB has changed some terminology, and mingled some ideas that were not being asserted in the text.

A literal translation of the rest of verse 4-5:
that even as Christ was raised up out of the dead through the glory of the Father, so also we in newness of life might walk. 5For, if we have become planted together to the likeness of his death, [so] also we shall be of the rising again;

Here the understanding is quite clear that there are two things which liken us to Christ, his death, and bodily resurrection (Gospel fundamentals). Our newness of life is tied to his resurrection. It is what gives us the right or ability to walk in newness of life. The word for newness [2538. kainotÚs] is this akin to "eternal life".

[B]Hypothesis:
'the baptism' and 'the death' are a single and certain baptism, defined as Christ's singular death. His one single death is applicable to the group of people to whom Paul writes (the we). Therefore Paul is not speaking of each of us in an individual sense. He speaks of us as a whole, not all individually. (he does not say either: "we each were", or "every one of us"). The Baptism of Repentance (John's Baptism), of which Jesus Christ ceremonially participated and said was necessary for righteousness is then - in spiritual terms - a baptism which symbolizes nothing more than faith in Christ's ministry (which was his death).


Conclusion:
The assertion is often made, that Romans 6:1-7 are relating Christ's sinless life, as a fundamental similarity (a requirement) with respect to our day to day living. This is false. The passage simply asserts that our "newness" or "refreshing" of life, is will resemble Christ's Glory in resurrection, or, that our hope of resurrection is assured to be the same as Christ's resurrection.


Discussion:
Romans 6:8-11 demonstrate the principle of a future life:
8And if we died with Christ, we believe that we also shall live with him,

(i.e your hope of new life is in living with Christ in bodily resurrection)

9knowing that Christ, having been raised up out of the dead, doth no more die, death over him hath no more lordship; 10for in that he died, to the sin he died once, and in that he liveth, he liveth to God; 11so also ye, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to the sin, and living to God in Jesus Christ our Lord.

What does it mean in practicality to reckon (consider) yourself to be dead to sin? It means quite simply that you should regard yourself with the same mindset which Christ is regarded, eternally alive, and sinless. Does this mean you have attained sinlessness in your every day living. Absolutely not. It is simply encouragement to keep your mind on the eternal, on everlasting life.

Many terrible conclusions can be drawn from the idea that Christians live a sinless life after believing/conversion. The worst, is the accusation that a transgression causes loss of salvation. Another is that our 'walking' in this present life is necessarily either glorified or powerful. If indeed we are always glorified and sinless, what sense does it make to preach the Beatitudes?

We are not told our lives are sinless, not at all. Eph 4 says:
22ye are to put off concerning the former behaviour the old man, that is corrupt according to the desires of the deceit, 23and to be renewed in the spirit of your mind, 24and to put on the new man, which, according to God, was created in righteousness and kindness of the truth.

It is not then about behavior attaining perfection, but simply a mental state of mind which accepts our "new" identity. It is really nothing more than mediating on Godliness, which inspires truthfulness. It is a contrast of either deceitfulness/truthfulness. {note the similarity between Paul's epistles and John's: lie/darkness, vs. truth/light}

Do not make baptism about a personal death to 'ourselves' because we don't have "two selves", Christ died to set you, yourself, your normal self, FREE. Not free-of sin, but free from a sin-master. Paul personifies sin as a master, it is therefore Christ as master from whom you now will receive wages (which are resurrection to new life).

"The wages of sin is death" (Rom 6:23) is to do with the concept of the servant receiving his wages from the master. If sin is your master, you can only receive death, but if Jesus your master, eternal life.

(In that time frame a servant could be set free from slavery, but upon freedom he was without any property or much rights, and would be required to set up a contract by which he would then be paid small wages for his labor. In effect, sin being a master is the hopeless situation for which slaves of the day were in, unable to pay-off their debts for housing and food - perpetually enslaved to the same master, but for 'wages'. A sin master pays in death. To bet set free from the sin master is to be liberated from an 'eternal' cycle of death)

Jesus being Lord of your life has nothing to do with sinlessness, or flawless servants, but simply means that you have a contract (Jesus death) to receive different wages. Baptism is transferring your ownership over to Christ, instead of a master of sin.

episkopos
May 19th 2014, 07:04 PM
Hypothesis:
'the baptism' and 'the death' are a single and certain baptism, defined as Christ's singular death. His one single death is applicable to the group of people to whom Paul writes (the we). Therefore Paul is not speaking of each of us in an individual sense. He speaks of us as a whole, not all individually. (he does not say either: "we each were", or "every one of us"). The Baptism of Repentance (John's Baptism), of which Jesus Christ ceremonially participated and said was necessary for righteousness is then - in spiritual terms - a baptism which symbolizes nothing more than faith in Christ's ministry (which was his death).

We are not baptized into a death of a Person that does not affect our life. WE are to be dead in Christ. So the baptism is not about what Jesus did but about what WE are doing.

Rom_6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

This means we are disconnected from our previous life of the flesh in order to be raised to new life according to the Spirit. So then we die WITH Christ so that the flesh and sin has no longer power over us.



Conclusion:
The assertion is often made, that Romans 6:1-7 are relating Christ's sinless life, as a fundamental similarity (a requirement) with respect to our day to day living. This is false. The passage simply asserts that our "newness" or "refreshing" of life, is will resemble Christ's Glory in resurrection, or, that our hope of resurrection is assured to be the same as Christ's resurrection.

Actually this is false. Newness of life does not mean life as before. Otherwise it is not new...and certainly not rooted in holiness. But we are called to die with Christ to sin and be made alive to walk by His resurrection power. So then death and sin no longer have dominion over us...although our earthly bodies decay and die. Rather we walk as Jesus walked in the flesh...but according to the Spirit. If we do this then we will never sin again. There is no sin in Christ. If we want to sin then we will come out of Christ and take up the power of the flesh once again. The devil works overtime to fool Christ-abiders back into the flesh. He will do anything to make this happen. And he is very successful at it.

We are called to overcome as Jesus overcame...through His power.

Aijalon
May 19th 2014, 08:37 PM
the baptism is not about what Jesus did but about what WE are doing.

I expected this response from you. However, in the face of the presentation I just gave, I find this statement of yours very silly.



Rom_6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

You see that Paul speaks of believers here collectively, and that he speaks of Christ's physical death, not any personal "death" of our own. I pointed out that Verse 4 clearly shows "the death" which is in mind is Christ's singular death. Your reasoning here does not address the manner in which Paul speaks of "sin" as a master who pays wages to us.

In any regard, you have not done anything to show that my analysis of the text is incorrect. This is not what you "feel" is right, this just about what the text says, and only that. The title of the thread was in Greek for a reason.

Regards

A

petrobb
May 19th 2014, 09:18 PM
I expected this response from you. However, in the face of the presentation I just gave, I find this statement of yours very silly.


You see that Paul speaks of believers here collectively, and that he speaks of Christ's physical death, not any personal "death" of our own. I pointed out that Verse 4 clearly shows "the death" which is in mind is Christ's singular death. Your reasoning here does not address the manner in which Paul speaks of "sin" as a master who pays wages to us.

In any regard, you have not done anything to show that my analysis of the text is incorrect. This is not what you "feel" is right, this just about what the text says, and only that. The title of the thread was in Greek for a reason.

Regards

A

it is true that when we were immersed into His death by the Holy Spirit it was into HIS death. It is into Him as the One Who died. It is a sharing in His death. We have died with Christ. Nevertheless we cannot experience this without the Holy Spirit in some sense working death in us. We partake with Him in His death. This has two consequences among others. It means that as far as the laws accusations are concerned we are dead so that the law can no longer accuse us.. But it also means that we are to see ourselves as dead to sin, with no right to live in sin any longer, and with sin no longer having rights over us.

Does this mean we never sin? Of course not. If we say that we have not sinned we make God a liar. But it does mean that we are to acknowledge that sin is now an intruder which we need to keep at a distance.

And it means that we have been raised with Christ to live the Christ life, with Jesus Christ living through us by means of the new life He gives us by His Spirit. We see our old life as dead. We see our new life in Christ as the true life which we should be living. And we allow Him to live that life through us because we are His body..

.

cuban
May 20th 2014, 01:48 AM
Please forgive the snip, but I'm attempting to make this readable for those that choose to read it.


Firstly, the proper context for Romans 6:4 begins much earlier than what you have suggested. I daresay as early as Romans 4:16, if not 3:21, where we are presented the plan of salvation by example which is:
Justification by Faith, as confirmed by the testimony of Abraham. Chapter 5 then shows us the results of this declaration of innocence which is peace with God through Jesus Christ.

With this in view, one can begin at Romans 5:12 where we are shown what Christ's atonement was ultimately accomplished for ( complete reconciliation ) and that this is available to ALL men who believe. The Good News.


And so we are properly introduced to chapter 6.

Naturally, this Justification produces Sanctification because True Faith produces True Life. Justification for Peace, Sanctification for POWER.

Christ's power over sin so that we may Overcome, UNTIL glorification.

With that said, although Paul may be speaking corporately of our baptism into Christ's death - salvation is necessarily SINGULAR.
None are baptized into His death and burial corporately; but this is a personal & individual experience where the UNIQUE old man must be put to death, being SLAYED by the Holy Spirit.




Hypothesis:
'the baptism' and 'the death' are a single and certain baptism, defined as Christ's singular death. His one single death is applicable to the group of people to whom Paul writes (the we). Therefore Paul is not speaking of each of us in an individual sense. He speaks of us as a whole, not all individually. (he does not say either: "we each were", or "every one of us"). The Baptism of Repentance (John's Baptism), of which Jesus Christ ceremonially participated and said was necessary for righteousness is then - in spiritual terms - a baptism which symbolizes nothing more than faith in Christ's ministry (which was his death).


Rom 6:1 What then shall we say? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 Let it not be! We who died to sin, how shall we still live in it?
Rom 6:3 Or are you ignorant that all who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?

Rom 6:4 Therefore, we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, so also we should walk in newness of life.

In other words, as we are ALREADY buried with Him, then just as He was raised from the dead by the Father, We should NOW walk in that newness of life He has provided.
HIS newness of life that we have NOW, by faith.

Rom 6:5 For if we have been joined together in the likeness of His death, so also shall we be in the resurrection,
Rom 6:6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be nullified, so that we no longer serve sin.

Nullified means RENDERED FULLY INOPERATIVE ! This does not speak to future glorification as verse 5 does, for we have ALREADY died with Him and the body of sin is NULLIFIED NOW. The old man is dead NOW.

We are to no longer serve sin... NOW. NOT After glorification... Obviously.


Accordingly:

Rom 6:7 For the one that died has been justified from sin.

Justified by the Judge of all the earth signifies being regarded-as-innocent! Free from sin's mastery over us and its condemnation! Why? Because of our having been immersed into Christ, which is death.
Only law-breakers are under the law...and the law-breaker is dead... or he should be. ;)

Sin and death cannot hold one who has died with Christ and is walking in resurrection power in HIM.




Conclusion:
The assertion is often made, that Romans 6:1-7 are relating Christ's sinless life, as a fundamental similarity (a requirement) with respect to our day to day living. This is false. The passage simply asserts that our "newness" or "refreshing" of life, is will resemble Christ's Glory in resurrection, or, that our hope of resurrection is assured to be the same as Christ's resurrection.


Your conclusion is simply a half-truth. One is a slave to one's master; either sin unto death or righteousness unto life.

Needless to say, there can be no meaningful discussion of Romans 6 without continuing on through into Romans 8...
which destroys any notion contrary to the TOTAL fulfillment of the righteous demands of the law, day to day.

Sinless, in Christ. Sinless, in the Spirit.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to flesh, but according to Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the Law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus set me free from the law of sin and of death.
Rom 8:3 For the Law being powerless, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and concerning sin, condemned sin in the flesh,
Rom 8:4 so that the righteous demand of the Law might be fulfilled in us, those not walking according to flesh, but according to Spirit.

Rom 8:5 For the ones that are according to flesh mind the things of the flesh. And the ones according to Spirit mind the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For the mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace;
Rom 8:7 because the mind of the flesh is enmity towards God; for it is not being subjected to the Law of God, for neither can it be.
Rom 8:8 And those being in the flesh are not able to please God.

Rom 8:9 But you are not in flesh, but in Spirit, since the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone has not the Spirit of Christ, this one is not His.

Rom 8:10 But if Christ is in you, the body indeed is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of the One having raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the One having raised the Christ from the dead will also make your mortal bodies live through the indwelling of His Spirit in you.

Rom 8:12 So, then, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to flesh,
Rom 8:13 for if you live according to flesh, you are going to die. But if by the Spirit you put to death the practices of the body, you will live.

Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.




Discussion:
Romans 6:8-11 demonstrate the principle of a future life:
8And if we died with Christ, we believe that we also shall live with him,

(i.e your hope of new life is in living with Christ in bodily resurrection)

9knowing that Christ, having been raised up out of the dead, doth no more die, death over him hath no more lordship; 10for in that he died, to the sin he died once, and in that he liveth, he liveth to God; 11so also ye, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to the sin, and living to God in Jesus Christ our Lord.

What does it mean in practicality to reckon (consider) yourself to be dead to sin? It means quite simply that you should regard yourself with the same mindset which Christ is regarded, eternally alive, and sinless. Does this mean you have attained sinlessness in your every day living. Absolutely not. It is simply encouragement to keep your mind on the eternal, on everlasting life.

Many terrible conclusions can be drawn from the idea that Christians live a sinless life after believing/conversion. The worst, is the accusation that a transgression causes loss of salvation. Another is that our 'walking' in this present life is necessarily either glorified or powerful. If indeed we are always glorified and sinless, what sense does it make to preach the Beatitudes?


Interestingly, we see admonitions here that apply to us individually, for one cannot claim to have been enticed of sin if not by their own lusts.
Therefore, although our blessed hope is of course indicated, the contextual theme is not solely based upon a collective view of a future glorification.

And you have appropriately failed to continue on through to verse 14.

Rom 6:12 Then do not let sin reign in your mortal body, to obey it in its lusts. <---- NOW.
Rom 6:13 Neither present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as one living from the dead, and your members instruments of righteousness to God.
Rom 6:14 For your sin shall not lord it over you, for you are not under Law, but under grace.

Reckoning ourselves dead to sin is an appraisal of our conscience in relation to the works of the flesh. Can this be done while living in sin? No.

This is far from an intellectual exercise or a show of cognitive prowess that can be reduced to a mere, "consideration". It is indeed practical; for the old man must actually DIE.

This is a DEEP and SPIRITUAL experience, which is intended to result in ACTION and CHANGE. It is SUPERNATURAL; it defies logic and is contrary to reason, for it demands SURRENDER and DEATH.

We enter into this by Faith, and live for God in Christ.

Simply regarding oneself with the same mindset as Christ is foolishness without actually living from that place of provision.

None can attain sinlessness, but Christ did; if we have truly died with Him then we are alive in Him and all that He is, with a hope of future glorification in His presence forever.




We are not told our lives are sinless, not at all. Eph 4 says:
22ye are to put off concerning the former behaviour the old man, that is corrupt according to the desires of the deceit, 23and to be renewed in the spirit of your mind, 24and to put on the new man, which, according to God, was created in righteousness and kindness of the truth.

It is not then about behavior attaining perfection, but simply a mental state of mind which accepts our "new" identity. It is really nothing more than mediating on Godliness, which inspires truthfulness. It is a contrast of either deceitfulness/truthfulness. {note the similarity between Paul's epistles and John's: lie/darkness, vs. truth/light}


Nothing more than mental gymnastics that profess a form of godliness while denying the power thereof.
Another verse taken irresponsibly out of context...And, yet again, the erroneous assumption that preachers of resurrection life seek to attain perfection by their behavior. :dunno:

It is finished, we can step into HIS righteousness where there is no sin. Do you believe?




Do not make baptism about a personal death to 'ourselves' because we don't have "two selves", Christ died to set you, yourself, your normal self, FREE. Not free-of sin, but free from a sin-master. Paul personifies sin as a master, it is therefore Christ as master from whom you now will receive wages (which are resurrection to new life).

"The wages of sin is death" (Rom 6:23) is to do with the concept of the servant receiving his wages from the master. If sin is your master, you can only receive death, but if Jesus your master, eternal life.

(In that time frame a servant could be set free from slavery, but upon freedom he was without any property or much rights, and would be required to set up a contract by which he would then be paid small wages for his labor. In effect, sin being a master is the hopeless situation for which slaves of the day were in, unable to pay-off their debts for housing and food - perpetually enslaved to the same master, but for 'wages'. A sin master pays in death. To bet set free from the sin master is to be liberated from an 'eternal' cycle of death)

Jesus being Lord of your life has nothing to do with sinlessness, or flawless servants, but simply means that you have a contract (Jesus death) to receive different wages. Baptism is transferring your ownership over to Christ, instead of a master of sin.


And the servant indeed reaps what he sows...

mailmandan
May 20th 2014, 11:15 AM
The devil works overtime to fool Christ-abiders back into the flesh. He will do anything to make this happen. And he is very successful at it.

The devil works overtime to blind the minds of those who don't believe the gospel. He will do anything to make this happen and is very successful at it. 2 Corinthians 4:4 - In whom the god of this world has blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.


We are called to overcome as Jesus overcame...through His power.

1 John 4:4 - You are of God, little children, and have overcome them, because He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world.

1 John 5:4 - For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith.

Aijalon
May 20th 2014, 05:14 PM
[QUOTE]Naturally, this Justification produces Sanctification because True Faith produces True Life. Justification for Peace, Sanctification for POWER.
On which scripture are you basing this?


With that said, although Paul may be speaking corporately of our baptism into Christ's death - salvation is necessarily SINGULAR.
Ok.


None are baptized into His death and burial corporately;
Except you just agreed that Paul was speaking in a corporate manner......


but this is a personal & individual experience where the UNIQUE old man must be put to death, being SLAYED by the Holy Spirit.
You changed the discussion of Romans 6 as presented, to a different discussion of personal salvation. Of course our salvation is personal. I'm simply speaking of Romans 6.




Rom 6:1 What then shall we say? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 Let it not be! We who died to sin, how shall we still live in it?
Rom 6:3 Or are you ignorant that all who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?

Rom 6:4 Therefore, we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, so also we should walk in newness of life.

In other words, as we are ALREADY buried with Him, then just as He was raised from the dead by the Father, We should NOW walk in that newness of life He has provided.
HIS newness of life that we have NOW, by faith.

Rom 6:5 For if we have been joined together in the likeness of His death, so also shall we be in the resurrection,
Rom 6:6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be nullified, so that we no longer serve sin.

Nullified means RENDERED FULLY INOPERATIVE ! This does not speak to future glorification as verse 5 does, for we have ALREADY died with Him and the body of sin is NULLIFIED NOW. The old man is dead NOW.

We are to no longer serve sin... NOW. NOT After glorification... Obviously.
Although you emphasize "NOW" I cannot discuss your view unless you address my assessment of the Greek, which conveys the context of a future glorification. That is how I see the Greek, and if you don't wish to discuss Greek, but want to emphasize your particular translation (would be nice if you said it was KJV or not, but I assume it is based on your avatar)



Your conclusion is simply a half-truth. One is a slave to one's master; either sin unto death or righteousness unto life.
The wages paid by the master (sin) are death and only death. The wages paid by Jesus Christ to those of faith are eternal life and only life. There is no "half-truth" in what I said.


Needless to say, there can be no meaningful discussion of Romans 6 without continuing on through into Romans 8...
which destroys any notion contrary to the TOTAL fulfillment of the righteous demands of the law, day to day.
Where is "day to day" in the scripture? And if "day to day" applies, then "moment to moment" would apply also, yes? So then any infraction of "law" would mean you are hell bound. ANY. Why do wish to live by laws?



Sinless, in Christ. Sinless, in the Spirit.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to flesh, but according to Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the Law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus set me free from the law of sin and of death.
Rom 8:3 For the Law being powerless, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and concerning sin, condemned sin in the flesh,
Rom 8:4 so that the righteous demand of the Law might be fulfilled in us, those not walking according to flesh, but according to Spirit.
Only so much can be said so quickly, no one is excluding Romans 8.

But in any case, you have reversed what it means to be free from the Law, so now you have made being saved about following the law all over again. Do you not see a big and incomparable difference between the Law of Moses and the Law of the Spirit. The righteousness of the law is of NO VALUE.


Please respond with a Greek analysis, and we could go further.

Blessings

cuban
May 20th 2014, 10:47 PM
Naturally, this Justification produces Sanctification because True Faith produces True Life. Justification for Peace, Sanctification for POWER.


On which scripture are you basing this?


On the entirety of the proper contextual theme that leads up to the central issue being addressed in Romans chapter 6.

Rom 6:1 What then shall we say? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 Let it not be! We who died to sin, how shall we still live in it?






With that said, although Paul may be speaking corporately of our baptism into Christ's death - salvation is necessarily SINGULAR.
None are baptized into His death and burial corporately;


Ok.
Except you just agreed that Paul was speaking in a corporate manner......


I've already addressed it if you care to read. Christ's singular death applying to us corporately doesn't invalidate the individual experience of death, burial and resurrection.






but this is a personal & individual experience where the UNIQUE old man must be put to death, being SLAYED by the Holy Spirit.


You changed the discussion of Romans 6 as presented, to a different discussion of personal salvation. Of course our salvation is personal. I'm simply speaking of Romans 6.


No I haven't. What I have done is place the context of Romans 6 in proper view so that we may legitimately discuss it.

Paul isn't just preaching of our corporate baptism of death, there is much more meat to slice off the bone of which the central focus consists of.
I believe I've shared enough here for us to continue, unless you disagree with my presentation of the corresponding context.

Respectfully, it doesn't get much more personal than an exhortation to no longer serve sin by way of immersion into Christ's death. A true application of the provision we have in grace through Christ is individually realized and manifested.

And I would rightly proclaim that this is indeed a salvational issue.






Rom 6:1 What then shall we say? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 Let it not be! We who died to sin, how shall we still live in it?
Rom 6:3 Or are you ignorant that all who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?

Rom 6:4 Therefore, we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, so also we should walk in newness of life.

In other words, as we are ALREADY buried with Him, then just as He was raised from the dead by the Father, We should NOW walk in that newness of life He has provided.
HIS newness of life that we have NOW, by faith.

Rom 6:5 For if we have been joined together in the likeness of His death, so also shall we be in the resurrection,
Rom 6:6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be nullified, so that we no longer serve sin.

Nullified means RENDERED FULLY INOPERATIVE ! This does not speak to future glorification as verse 5 does, for we have ALREADY died with Him and the body of sin is NULLIFIED NOW. The old man is dead NOW.

We are to no longer serve sin... NOW. NOT After glorification... Obviously.


Although you emphasize "NOW" I cannot discuss your view unless you address my assessment of the Greek, which conveys the context of a future glorification. That is how I see the Greek, and if you don't wish to discuss Greek, but want to emphasize your particular translation (would be nice if you said it was KJV or not, but I assume it is based on your avatar)


I've already told you in a previous thread the version I quote from, but a simple copy and paste would reveal the same to you.

I don't even read Greek, but do not need to in order to see your assessment is in error and out of context.


Here is the literal of the literal for you:

"we-were-entombed-together with-Him through baptism into the death that as-even was-roused Christ of-dead-ones through the glory of-the-Father thus also we in newness of-life should-be-walking."

SHOULD-BE-WALKING -----> NOW.

G4043
- Original: περιπατέω
- Transliteration: Peripateo
- Phonetic: per-ee-pat-eh'-o
- Definition:
1. to walk
a. to make one's way, progress; to make due use of opportunities
b. Hebrew for, to live
1. to regulate one's life
2. to conduct one's self
3. to pass one's life

This is the same "should-be-walking" in Romans 13:13, Ephesians 2:10 and Ephesians 4:17

Rom 13:12 The night is far gone, and the day has drawn near; then let us cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the weapons of the light.
Rom 13:13 Let us walk becomingly, as in the day, not in carousings and drunkennesses, not in co-habitation and lustful acts, not in fighting and envy.
Rom 13:14 But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not make forethought of the flesh, for its lusts.


Eph 2:8 For by grace you are saved, through faith, and this not of yourselves; it is the gift of God;
Eph 2:9 not of works, that not anyone should boast;
Eph 2:10 for we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God before prepared that we should walk in them.

Eph 2:11 Because of this, remember that you, the nations, were then in the flesh (those having been called Uncircumcision by those having been called Circumcision in the flesh made by hands)
Eph 2:12 that at that time you were without Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers of the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

Eph 2:13 But now, in Christ Jesus you who then were afar off, came to be near by the blood of Christ.

Eph 2:14 For He is our peace, He making us both one, and breaking down the middle wall of partition,
Eph 2:15 in His flesh causing to cease the enmity, the Law of the commandments in decrees, that He might in Himself create the two into one new man, making peace,
Eph 2:16 and might reconcile both in one body to God through the cross, slaying the enmity in Himself.


Eph 2:17 And coming, He proclaimed "peace to you, the ones afar off, and to the ones near." ( Isa. 57:19 )
Eph 2:18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.

Eph 2:19 So, then, you are no longer strangers and tenants, but you are fellow citizens of the saints and of the family of God,
Eph 2:20 being built up on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the cornerstone,
Eph 2:21 in whom all the building being fitted together grows into a holy temple in the Lord,
Eph 2:22 in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.


Eph 4:17 Therefore, I say this, and testify in the Lord, that you no longer walk even as also the rest of the nations walk, in the vanity of their mind,
Eph 4:18 having been darkened in the intellect, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance which is in them because of the hardness of their heart,
Eph 4:19 who, having cast off all feeling, gave themselves up to lust, to the working of all uncleanness with greediness.
Eph 4:20 But you have not so learned Christ,
Eph 4:21 if indeed you heard Him and were taught in Him, as the truth is in Jesus.






Your conclusion is simply a half-truth. One is a slave to one's master; either sin unto death or righteousness unto life.


The wages paid by the master (sin) are death and only death. The wages paid by Jesus Christ to those of faith are eternal life and only life. There is no "half-truth" in what I said.


Our blessed hope will most assuredly be the completed newness of life for we will have glorified bodies.

But you assert that this newness of life does not apply to us now while the text is wholly surrounded by numerous exhortations to overcome sin as Christ did by HIS power. It is a blatant half-truth.






Needless to say, there can be no meaningful discussion of Romans 6 without continuing on through into Romans 8...
which destroys any notion contrary to the TOTAL fulfillment of the righteous demands of the law, day to day.


Where is "day to day" in the scripture? And if "day to day" applies, then "moment to moment" would apply also, yes? So then any infraction of "law" would mean you are hell bound. ANY. Why do wish to live by laws?


Well, you alluded to day to day living. But I can agree it is moment to moment for those abiding in Christ, where there is no transgression.






Sinless, in Christ. Sinless, in the Spirit.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to flesh, but according to Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the Law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus set me free from the law of sin and of death.
Rom 8:3 For the Law being powerless, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and concerning sin, condemned sin in the flesh,
Rom 8:4 so that the righteous demand of the Law might be fulfilled in us, those not walking according to flesh, but according to Spirit.


Only so much can be said so quickly, no one is excluding Romans 8.


Good, then please consider my contribution an edifying addition that merits discussion.




But in any case, you have reversed what it means to be free from the Law, so now you have made being saved about following the law all over again. Do you not see a big and incomparable difference between the Law of Moses and the Law of the Spirit. The righteousness of the law is of NO VALUE.


The reference to the "righteous demand of the law" is to illuminate the bountiful grace in us that fulfills all of the Law's righteous demands.

Those immersed into the death burial and resurrection of Christ cannot by definition break the law, for they are dead men. Alive in Christ from the dead is to abide in Christ where there is no sin.

Noeb
May 20th 2014, 11:57 PM
What does it mean in practicality to reckon (consider) yourself to be dead to sin? It means quite simply that you should regard yourself with the same mindset which Christ is regarded, eternally alive, and sinless. Does this mean you have attained sinlessness in your every day living. Absolutely not. It is simply encouragement to keep your mind on the eternal, on everlasting life.Verse 10-11 are pretty clear. People focus on reckon (and write entire books on it), focusing on the wrong word. "Likewise" (KJV) -houtō, "so" in other translations, is the word to be focused on. Also, the context is that we are "dead to sin" so that we should walk in newness of life. So just as Christ died once to sin and lives sinless, in the very same manner (houtō), that is how were are to walk. Go and sin no more. It's not "simply encouragement to keep your mind on the eternal, on everlasting life" (you forgot the sinless part), it's a promise that you already died to sin and no longer have to sin -no excuse.

Aijalon
May 21st 2014, 07:01 PM
Verse 10-11 are pretty clear. People focus on reckon (and write entire books on it), focusing on the wrong word. "Likewise" (KJV) -houtō, "so" in other translations, is the word to be focused on.
Meaning we need to know what is meant by "likewise" I agree.



Also, the context is that we are "dead to sin" so that we should walk in newness of life. So just as Christ died once to sin and lives sinless, in the very same manner (houtō),
I think you will find it hard to prove that "likewise" means "exactly the same" or "very same".

For instance - it does NOT say, "for we are to likewise behave."

It says that we are to: "likewise consider"

IOW - we're being told to "act like an adult". i.e. "act like Christ". No adult says to a child "act like a grownup!" and expects the kid to understand their behavior is expected to perfectly resemble an adult behavior.

Silly.

No, "act like a grown-up" is the same as "likewise consider yourself to be a grown up". Those two carry the same imperative, where a "grown up" is understood to be "act your age".

Paul is saying ACT YOUR IDENTITY!




that is how were are to walk. Go and sin no more. It's not "simply encouragement to keep your mind on the eternal, on everlasting life" (you forgot the sinless part), it's a promise that you already died to sin and no longer have to sin -no excuse.
Noeb, if you're right, then every person who believes/is converted, is then immediately perfect and sinless on account of a behavior system where sin is either 1) impossible or 2) causes loss of salvation.

Grace is no longer Grace if sin literally ceases to be possible or allowable.

Shall we sin so that grace may about, let it not be! is simply a characterization of attitude, he is telling us that we should not think that our mindset should not be lazy so that we think sinning is harmless, or even beneficial to us, so as to make us more righteous on account of receiving more Grace. He says this for the simple fact which is that more sin does REALLY invoke more Grace! It makes no sense to say that we aught not sin that Grace may increase, if it were not true, that Grace really does cover any and all sin (saved by Grace). Paul is asserting - NO CHEAP GRACE! (He's saying don't sin intentionally, - becaue there are unintentional, accidental, uninformed, and not-leading-to-death types of sin, many of them).

I grin at how less than honest people of your view tend to be about their daily lives, and their most recent sins, they wont' discuss them, because to do so is to agree with their own theology that they're not saved. It is the worst kind of inconsistency.

Noeb
May 22nd 2014, 02:58 AM
I think you will find it hard to prove that "likewise" means "exactly the same" or "very same".in this manner, in this way

the word this sure doesn't imply another way.



For instance - it does NOT say, "for we are to likewise behave."it does exactly that

"For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. Likewise reckon ye also yourselves"



It says that we are to: "likewise consider"Wrong. It's 'in the same way count', not consider



Noeb, if you're right, then every person who believes/is converted, is then immediately perfect and sinless on account of a behavior system where sin is either 1) impossible or 2) causes loss of salvation.I have no idea how you came to this conclusion. Scripture never implies we must sin. We are, as Jesus said, free indeed. Not partially free. We are not partially dead. We are not partially crucified with Christ.

Rom 7:3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
Rom 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
Rom 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.



Grace is no longer Grace if sin literally ceases to be possible or allowable.who said it's not possible or allowed?



I grin at how less than honest people of your viewWhat view is that? So far you seem to be talking to someone other than me.

Aijalon
May 22nd 2014, 03:02 AM
If I did mistake you for one of "the others" (SHHH they could be listening!) I'm sorry. Most of the arguments seem to go along the lines that "free from sin" is to mean free of ever sinning.

Noeb
May 22nd 2014, 03:06 AM
If I did mistake you for one of "the others" (SHHH they could be listening!) I'm sorry. Most of the arguments seem to go along the lines that "free from sin" is to mean free of ever sinning.It's ok. We miserably fail, but we don't have to. I simply try to state the power of the gospel. It says we are free to never sin, but that doesn't mean I never do or have ever known anyone that never does.

cuban
May 22nd 2014, 11:30 AM
Grace is no longer Grace if sin literally ceases to be possible or allowable.


who said it's not possible or allowed?


No one.






I grin at how less than honest people of your view tend to be about their daily lives, and their most recent sins, they won't discuss them, because to do so is to agree with their own theology that they're not saved.


What view is that? So far you seem to be talking to someone other than me.


Apparently, it's the view that condemns the brethren to be bearers of false witness for simply believing what the scriptures say.

The "others" are an imaginary group of Christians that claim perfection in and of themselves because the OP doesn't believe he/she is made complete in Christ.

This realization is of course only possible by crucifying the self-victimization that demands us to cling to a sin-identity.

Aijalon
May 22nd 2014, 01:45 PM
No one.

As you see, below, you do in fact suggest that the Christian is perfect.



The "others" are an imaginary group of Christians that claim perfection in and of themselves because the OP doesn't believe he/she is made complete in Christ.
You've hit something critical. Good. So you do recognize the difference, you claim you are now perfect, and sinless, and that by this new nature of sinlessness which from Christ being "in you", you can't sin. You take the self of you, and replace your own self will with the idea that Christ's will is now the only will at work in you.

However, this replaces the self will of you, so that the self will of you (which can sin if it want's to, by your POV I guess) so that it is no longer in a position that can sin any longer, since only Christ's will (his conscious mind) operates in your life.

What this does is supposes that everything you say and do is a conscious act of God himself, which then means all you say and do is always correct (and sinless, obviously)



[/quote]This realization is of course only possible by crucifying the self-victimization that demands us to cling to a sin-identity.[/QUOTE]
You fail here. It isn't sin identity. Identity is all about who God says you are, and who's family you're in. Sin identity removal doesn't mean you're perfect. It means that Sin no longer has a hold on your eternal life (which is eternal death).

cuban
May 22nd 2014, 02:55 PM
As you see, below, you do in fact suggest that the Christian is perfect.


:B






The "others" are an imaginary group of Christians that claim perfection in and of themselves because the OP doesn't believe he/she is made complete in Christ.


You've hit something critical. Good. So you do recognize the difference, you claim you are now perfect, and sinless, and that by this new nature of sinlessness which from Christ being "in you", you can't sin. You take the self of you, and replace your own self will with the idea that Christ's will is now the only will at work in you.


It appears you've missed the sarcasm. And no, I've made no such claim of an inability to sin. You must read carefully and without bias.
I said it is impossible for a dead man to sin.

Only if the zombie escapes the grave can he return to his former paths. Do you believe that old man has died?

I've been saying all along it is Christ that is sinless... you are missing half of the new creation.

Christ in us AND us in Christ.




However, this replaces the self will of you, so that the self will of you (which can sin if it want's to, by your POV I guess) so that it is no longer in a position that can sin any longer, since only Christ's will (his conscious mind) operates in your life.

What this does is supposes that everything you say and do is a conscious act of God himself, which then means all you say and do is always correct (and sinless, obviously)


It does not, because our walk in the Spirit is reciprocal; not the return of the body-snatchers possession you are implying, which I have in no wise expressed.

Do you believe Christ is sinless? If yes, do you believe righteousness has any fellowship with darkness?


Your will is to be merged with His to the point that, you have NO will of your own apart from HIS. ( If you truly abide in HIM )

But the simplicity of this reality goes above and beyond by leaps and bounds into the depths of the Living Waters we partake of in union with Christ Jesus.

We are called to be LOST in Him beyond any reasoning that struggles against the perceived dangers of such intense SELF-LESS love.

This utter devotion RECIPROCATES the grace needed to walk in HIS Power, which is an IMPOSSIBILITY in our own strength.

Does that make sense? If we are entirely found in Him, then we are Holy as He is Holy. Do you see why?

Are you a living sacrifice, or is there something being held back?






This realization is of course only possible by crucifying the self-victimization that demands us to cling to a sin-identity.


You fail here. It isn't sin identity. Identity is all about who God says you are, and who's family you're in. Sin identity removal doesn't mean you're perfect. It means that Sin no longer has a hold on your eternal life (which is eternal death).



Perfect conveys completion not flawlessness. Complete in Him to be as I was destined to originally be. I'm weak and God is strong.

As for your final statement....I'll offer this again.

Rom 6:12 Then do not let sin reign in your mortal body, to obey it in its lusts.
Rom 6:13 Neither present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as one living from the dead, and your members instruments of righteousness to God.
Rom 6:14 For your sin shall not lord it over you, for you are not under Law, but under grace.

God bless

Aijalon
May 22nd 2014, 03:28 PM
Your will is to be merged with His to the point that, you have NO will of your own apart from HIS. ( If you truly abide in HIM )
what you do here is take the lesson about abiding in Christ, and make this exactly the same as they way in which Christ abided in the Father.

This does, effectively, make you a new part of the Trinity itself. I don't accept that.

I believe our abiding in Christ is much different that Him in the Father. Christ is the conscious mind of the Father Himself.

You seem to suppose that Christ's will was more or less "replaced" by the Father's will. "Not my will but yours".

As I have said elsewhere, the will of Jesus Christ is expressed in human terminology. The will of which he speaks is not the will of his conscious mind, but the desires of his flesh - which he rejected. Christ's mind was the expressly conscious will of his Father, who is heavenly. He and the Father are ONE.

You are one with Christ also not by conscious mind-link, or because your will is then made precisely as his (for you still have desires of the flesh, which you must continually reject).

Jesus' prayer in the garden was recorded for us by... who? And why? Was it his personal prayer, a discussion with another being other than himself? Not really. His prayer was recorded so that you could see what human interaction with God is all about, and how HARD it is.

But you go off the rails and say that you don't have a will of your own anymore. Have no mind!!???

WHERE DID CUBAN GO???!!!

cuban
May 22nd 2014, 03:50 PM
what you do here is take the lesson about abiding in Christ, and make this exactly the same as they way in which Christ abided in the Father.

This does, effectively, make you a new part of the Trinity itself. I don't accept that.

I believe our abiding in Christ is much different that Him in the Father. Christ is the conscious mind of the Father Himself.

You seem to suppose that Christ's will was more or less "replaced" by the Father's will. "Not my will but yours".

As I have said elsewhere, the will of Jesus Christ is expressed in human terminology. The will of which he speaks is not the will of his conscious mind, but the desires of his flesh - which he rejected. Christ's mind was the expressly conscious will of his Father, who is heavenly. He and the Father are ONE.

You are one with Christ also not by conscious mind-link, or because your will is then made precisely as his (for you still have desires of the flesh, which you must continually reject).

Jesus' prayer in the garden was recorded for us by... who? And why? Was it his personal prayer, a discussion with another being other than himself? Not really. His prayer was recorded so that you could see what human interaction with God is all about, and how HARD it is.

But you go off the rails and say that you don't have a will of your own anymore. Have no mind!!???

WHERE DID CUBAN GO???!!!

Lol cuban is right here, in Christ. :)

But my flesh is crucified and its deeds are mortified by the Spirit, so long as I surrender my will and want for nothing less it pleases the Lord. ( walk in the Spirit )


Christ is the first-born among many brethren...there is quite a leap from sons of God to the God-head... I'm at a loss.

Your use of the word "replaced" is tediously inaccurate...it's as if you stop halfway through my statements.

Abiding is in the Spirit, the desires of the flesh are of flesh that has yet to be crucified. Die and Bury it daily and remain with Christ. Stay with Him, abide in Him.

There's only so many ways I can express it. You seem compelled to keep applying BUT's to concrete declarations in the scriptures. The Holy Spirit says we have the mind of Christ. The Holy Spirit says we have open access to the Holy of Holies by way of Christ's redemptive atonement. What is it exactly that you find so "HARD" about interacting with your heavenly Father?

What's hard is striving against sin without grace.

Grace is given freely. Do you believe? If you believe, have you asked for the grace to overcome your flesh? Or do you settle for less and rely on the increase of grace?

Aijalon
May 22nd 2014, 09:01 PM
Lol cuban is right here, in Christ. :)
Oh, there you are! :D



What's hard is striving against sin without grace.
True.


Or do you settle for less and rely on the increase of grace?
I prefer to say I just let Grace do what it does, I don't invoke it.

episkopos
May 22nd 2014, 09:06 PM
what you do here is take the lesson about abiding in Christ, and make this exactly the same as they way in which Christ abided in the Father.

This does, effectively, make you a new part of the Trinity itself. I don't accept that.

I believe our abiding in Christ is much different that Him in the Father. Christ is the conscious mind of the Father Himself.

You seem to suppose that Christ's will was more or less "replaced" by the Father's will. "Not my will but yours".

As I have said elsewhere, the will of Jesus Christ is expressed in human terminology. The will of which he speaks is not the will of his conscious mind, but the desires of his flesh - which he rejected. Christ's mind was the expressly conscious will of his Father, who is heavenly. He and the Father are ONE.

You are one with Christ also not by conscious mind-link, or because your will is then made precisely as his (for you still have desires of the flesh, which you must continually reject).

Jesus' prayer in the garden was recorded for us by... who? And why? Was it his personal prayer, a discussion with another being other than himself? Not really. His prayer was recorded so that you could see what human interaction with God is all about, and how HARD it is.

But you go off the rails and say that you don't have a will of your own anymore. Have no mind!!???

WHERE DID CUBAN GO???!!!

Do you deny that Jesus was FULLY human? When we abide in Jesus we are EXACTLY as Jesus in this world.

1Jn_4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

episkopos
May 22nd 2014, 09:11 PM
A common heresy is to disavow the humanity of Jesus Christ in order to emphasize a belief in His Deity. These certainly say...Lord Lord. But Jesus is not interested in people who worship Him as an idol. He wants actual spiritual fruit...the same kind as He produced. So then as we walk in the Spirit we do the works of Christ. And even greater works...man...that messes with the "Jesus as idol crowd."

Aijalon
May 22nd 2014, 10:22 PM
Do you deny that Jesus was FULLY human? When we abide in Jesus we are EXACTLY as Jesus in this world.
You can't argue that we're exactly the same, otherwise my point that we're then divine and part of the Trinity would hold true.

If we say that Jesus is fully human just as we are... then Jesus was not conscious before his human birth, he was not even accountable as a child and completely unknowledgeable. I have issues with that and I think you know that the scriptures say that Jesus had perfect communion with the Father before the world was.....

There is paradox of the fully human fully god argument.

It is uncomfortable to think Jesus had advantage over us, but really you know he did. He was fully aware and fully accountable for the creation of the universe, even as a human baby. Do you know of any people that created the universe other than him?



1Jn_4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
there, "is" means existing. Or, in other words, he exists in the world through our love he gives us to display through him. Or, his love to the world now remains in the world because of us.....

cuban
May 22nd 2014, 10:28 PM
I prefer to say I just let Grace do what it does, I don't invoke it.

Understood. But power is manifested on our behalf by recognition of our weakness.

Many blessings are found in brokenness. Humility is often overshadowed by the towering glory of our resurrected Christ.

Aijalon
May 22nd 2014, 10:38 PM
Understood. But power is manifested on our behalf by recognition of our weakness.

Many blessings are found in brokenness. Humility is often overshadowed by the towering glory of our resurrected Christ.
I think you must be getting this from a twisted view of the Beatitudes.

So "blessed are the poor in spirit" is to mean that to be spiritual vagabond is to be a blessing of itself, itself leads to manifestation of a blessing?? And it certainly doesn't bring power, to be humble. For humility and power are totally contrasted. The meek shall inherit the earth is not a statement to "empower" meek people to be "bold", but a prophecy about humble people who are now "last" in this life becoming first in his kingdom.

There are no blessings in brokenness, other than the fact that they invoke God's compassion.

Such thinking often leads to the diea that we aught to strive for being in anguish, self loathing, etc... and this wasn't the point of the Beatitudes.

You cannot be in both a state of lowly and broken spirit, and also joy.

cuban
May 22nd 2014, 10:50 PM
I think you must be getting this from a twisted view of the Beatitudes.

So "blessed are the poor in spirit" is to mean that to be spiritual vagabond is to be a blessing of itself, itself leads to manifestation of a blessing?? And it certainly doesn't bring power, to be humble. For humility and power are totally contrasted. The meek shall inherit the earth is not a statement to "empower" meek people to be "bold", but a prophecy about humble people who are now "last" in this life becoming first in his kingdom.

There are no blessings in brokenness, other than the fact that they invoke God's compassion.

Such thinking often leads to the idea that we aught to strive for being in anguish, self loathing, etc... and this wasn't the point of the Beatitudes.

You cannot be in both a state of lowly and broken spirit, and also joy.

Sure you can. Ask Paul. :)

Boundless joy amidst all manner of affliction is the hallmark of a Spirit-filled follower of Christ. Joy that cannot be shaken.

Anguish, no. Self-hatred...no. Longing for total redemption, yes. Persecuted for the sake of righteousness...yes.

The howls of storms may push, but can never move one standing fast upon the rock.


2Co 4:6 Because it is God who said, "Out of darkness Light shall shine," who shone in our hearts to give the brightness of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. ( Isa. 42:6, 7, 16 )

2Co 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, so that the excellence of the power may be of God, and not from us;
2Co 4:8 in every way being troubled, not being hemmed in; being perplexed, but not utterly at a loss;
2Co 4:9 being persecuted, but not being forsaken; being thrown down, but not having been destroyed;
2Co 4:10 always bearing about the dying of the Lord Jesus in the body, that also the life of Jesus may be revealed in our body.

2Co 4:11 For we who live are always being delivered up to death on account of Jesus, that also the life of Jesus may be revealed in our mortal flesh;
2Co 4:12 so that death indeed works in us, and life in you.

Noeb
May 22nd 2014, 11:26 PM
Sure you can. Ask Paul. :)

Boundless joy amidst all manner of affliction is the hallmark of a Spirit-filled follower of Christ. Joy that cannot be shaken.

Anguish, no. Self-hatred...no. Longing for total redemption, yes. Persecuted for the sake of righteousness...yes.

The howls of storms may push, but can never move one standing fast upon the rock.


2Co 4:6 Because it is God who said, "Out of darkness Light shall shine," who shone in our hearts to give the brightness of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. ( Isa. 42:6, 7, 16 )

2Co 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, so that the excellence of the power may be of God, and not from us;
2Co 4:8 in every way being troubled, not being hemmed in; being perplexed, but not utterly at a loss;
2Co 4:9 being persecuted, but not being forsaken; being thrown down, but not having been destroyed;
2Co 4:10 always bearing about the dying of the Lord Jesus in the body, that also the life of Jesus may be revealed in our body.

2Co 4:11 For we who live are always being delivered up to death on account of Jesus, that also the life of Jesus may be revealed in our mortal flesh;
2Co 4:12 so that death indeed works in us, and life in you.Why stop at verse 12? I don't think you are understanding the point that is being made. What you have posted here is not parallel to "poor in spirit" in the Matthew 5, because 2Cor 4 says

2Co 4:16 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.

So what you posted here is not someone poor in spirit at all. That would be strange coming from someone that said things like, having all things, the riches of his glory, the depth of the riches, the riches of his grace, the riches of the glory of his inheritance, unsearchable riches of Christ, all riches of the full assurance etc.

Paul was talking about persecution, not spiritual brokenness, which is contrary to the gospel. Speaking to Jews who were occupied and oppressed, in Matthew 5 Jesus was talking about the riches of the kingdom being offered. The Spirit had not been given. They were poor in spirit.

Mat 5:3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Now this verse is parallel to 2Cor 4.
Mat 5:10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

RCJones
May 23rd 2014, 01:18 AM
You can't argue that we're exactly the same, otherwise my point that we're then divine and part of the Trinity would hold true.

If we say that Jesus is fully human just as we are... then Jesus was not conscious before his human birth, he was not even accountable as a child and completely unknowledgeable. I have issues with that and I think you know that the scriptures say that Jesus had perfect communion with the Father before the world was.....

There is paradox of the fully human fully god argument.

It is uncomfortable to think Jesus had advantage over us, but really you know he did. He was fully aware and fully accountable for the creation of the universe, even as a human baby. Do you know of any people that created the universe other than him?


there, "is" means existing. Or, in other words, he exists in the world through our love he gives us to display through him. Or, his love to the world now remains in the world because of us.....

I agree with you, Jesus was fully human as well as fully divine, however, he still was a baby, toddler, and child. It's not like he was born and then knew how to do all there was to do, like walk, run, fall down, skin his knee, jump, read, eat and he had to be taught by men himself. Remember when his parents forgot him, when they went to retrieve him he was learning from teachers in the temple?

I do believe there was a period of time in his life where he was not accountable for his actions, we all make mistakes and I have a difficult time believing Jesus never made a mistake as a toddler, did he accidentally burn himself on fire? Or whatever scenario.

Yet, because of fully man/fully divine, he was able to pass the test of living without sin. He was able to do so because He was baptized and empowered by the Holy Spirit had the greatest wisdom, the greatest knowledge and the greatest Fruit of any man who ever lived, besides, He was directly conceived by the Holy Spirit. :)

cuban
May 23rd 2014, 03:02 AM
Why stop at verse 12? I don't think you are understanding the point that is being made. What you have posted here is not parallel to "poor in spirit" in the Matthew 5, because 2Cor 4 says

2Co 4:16 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.

So what you posted here is not someone poor in spirit at all. That would be strange coming from someone that said things like, having all things, the riches of his glory, the depth of the riches, the riches of his grace, the riches of the glory of his inheritance, unsearchable riches of Christ, all riches of the full assurance etc.

Paul was talking about persecution, not spiritual brokenness, which is contrary to the gospel. Speaking to Jews who were occupied and oppressed, in Matthew 5 Jesus was talking about the riches of the kingdom being offered. The Spirit had not been given. They were poor in spirit.

Mat 5:3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Now this verse is parallel to 2Cor 4.
Mat 5:10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.


Grace is God's mercy and power, love and strength.

Psa 51:17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and a contrite heart, O God, You will not despise.

A confession of God as sovereign and deserving of our entire beings as a living sacrifice is a humbling experience. David recognized this truth. David was considered a man after God's own heart.

David was broken.


I speak of brokenness that weeps for all lost souls. Brokenness in prayer, for the afflictions of saints and the blood of martyrs.
Broken in spirit, and broken in heart for that which breaks God's heart.

For that which moves God's Holy Spirit. Not broken in any sense of helplessness or lack of hope. Broken by the beauty and providential wisdom of God in all of history and the ages to come.

Rejoicing in tribulation, yet broken by this undeserving weight of glory upon us.


2Co 5:14 For the love of Christ constrains us, having judged this, that if One died for all, then all died;
2Co 5:15 and He died for all, that the living ones may live no more to themselves, but to the One having died for them and having been raised.

Sobering, is it not? Persecution unimaginable... Although the Gospel is not spiritual brokenness but spiritual renewal, to minister for Christ is humiliation; in the sense that, all mortal grandeur is dwarfed, darkened by the splendor of Christ.
God shares His glory with no man.

Ask Paul about lowliness, humility, brokenness. A man who proclaimed himself to be less than the least of all the saints.. Yet declared, "Be imitators of me, as I am also of Christ."

Broken like Christ was broken for the brethren.
Brethren considered ignorant and unlearned, unimportant, unknown...destitute, naked, homeless..."of whom the world was not worthy".

And so we must be broken for Christ as living sacrifices upon the altar of God. It is in this brokenness that His glory manifests, priceless treasure in earthen vessels.

This is the divine pattern, for in our weakness is His strength made perfect...

episkopos
May 23rd 2014, 01:36 PM
You can't argue that we're exactly the same, otherwise my point that we're then divine and part of the Trinity would hold true.

We are the same. Jesus is fully man as well as fully God. He brings us into His likeness by giving us His nature...then He subjects us to trials in order that we may also learn to be mature as He is.


If we say that Jesus is fully human just as we are... then Jesus was not conscious before his human birth, he was not even accountable as a child and completely unknowledgeable. I have issues with that and I think you know that the scriptures say that Jesus had perfect communion with the Father before the world was.....

Jesus Christ is greater than any man in that He is God. But He is also a man just like us. So as He shares what He is with us...we become exactly as He is. But He is always first.


There is paradox of the fully human fully god argument.

We experience that paradox as we walk in His power over sin. It is hard to believe that Jesus would share that much of Himself with us. But He does. :)


It is uncomfortable to think Jesus had advantage over us, but really you know he did. He was fully aware and fully accountable for the creation of the universe, even as a human baby. Do you know of any people that created the universe other than him?

Yet He limited Himself to what men can do. So then we can do exactly as He did through the power He gives to us. He says...Follow Me!





there, "is" means existing. Or, in other words, he exists in the world through our love he gives us to display through him. Or, his love to the world now remains in the world because of us.....

It means through Him we are now as Christ to this world.

RCJones
May 23rd 2014, 02:19 PM
We are the same.
Aww, I see, this is why your posts come through as very prideful....

You believe you're Jesus. ;) Got it.

cuban
May 23rd 2014, 02:27 PM
Aww, I see, this is why your posts come through as very prideful....

You believe you're Jesus. ;) Got it.

I know right? What AUDACITY to believe he is one with Christ as Christ is with the Father! Bah! Argh! Blasphemy! STONE THIS MAN!

CRUCIFY HIM ! ! ! ;)

RCJones
May 23rd 2014, 02:29 PM
I know right? The AUDACITY to claim he is one with Christ as Christ is with the Father! Bah! Argh! Blasphemy! STONE THIS MAN!

CRUCIFY HIM ! ! ! ;)

You are twisting my words, too, i did not say what you just said - I said he thinks HE is CHRIst.

On the other hand, we are made One with Christ. There is a difference between being One with Christ and being Christ.

There will be many who claim to be Christ - which is exactly what Jesus said, so my red flags are going off.

Do you claim to be Christ, too?

You and episkopos please stop twisting other people's words, it makes for a very deceptive conversation, there is no integrity coming from either of you.

episkopos
May 23rd 2014, 02:40 PM
You are twisting my words, too, i did not say what you just said - I said he thinks HE is CHRIst.

On the other hand, we are made One with Christ. There is a difference between being One with Christ and being Christ.

There will be many who claim to be Christ - which is exactly what Jesus said, so my red flags are going off.

Do you claim to be Christ, too?

You and episkopos please stop twisting other people's words, it makes for a very deceptive conversation, there is no integrity coming from either of you.


You are the common denominator here. Perhaps you are seeing through coloured glasses. Try understanding the points rather than being defensive about a position that is untenable.

cuban
May 23rd 2014, 02:47 PM
You are twisting my words, too, i did not say what you just said - I said he thinks HE is CHRIst.

On the other hand, we are made One with Christ. There is a difference between being One with Christ and being Christ.

There will be many who claim to be Christ - which is exactly what Jesus said, so my red flags are going off.

Do you claim to be Christ, too?

You and episkopos please stop twisting other people's words, it makes for a very deceptive conversation, there is no integrity coming from either of you.

Lol, I hope I at least got a chuckle out of you.

But sometimes, we should take our own advice brother Jones.

I think you would be hard-pressed to convince readers that brother epi just stated he is Christ... :no:

Perhaps this would be alleviated by refraining from the infamous partial quoting of the brethren, which is usually followed by the introduction of concepts which weren't conveyed. ;)

cuban
May 23rd 2014, 02:50 PM
By the way, there is no pride in glorying in Christ. Praise the Lord.

Noeb
May 23rd 2014, 05:52 PM
Grace is God's mercy and power, love and strength.

Psa 51:17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and a contrite heart, O God, You will not despise.

A confession of God as sovereign and deserving of our entire beings as a living sacrifice is a humbling experience. David recognized this truth. David was considered a man after God's own heart.

David was broken.


I speak of brokenness that weeps for all lost souls. Brokenness in prayer, for the afflictions of saints and the blood of martyrs.
Broken in spirit, and broken in heart for that which breaks God's heart.

For that which moves God's Holy Spirit. Not broken in any sense of helplessness or lack of hope. Broken by the beauty and providential wisdom of God in all of history and the ages to come.

Rejoicing in tribulation, yet broken by this undeserving weight of glory upon us.


2Co 5:14 For the love of Christ constrains us, having judged this, that if One died for all, then all died;
2Co 5:15 and He died for all, that the living ones may live no more to themselves, but to the One having died for them and having been raised.

Sobering, is it not? Persecution unimaginable... Although the Gospel is not spiritual brokenness but spiritual renewal, to minister for Christ is humiliation; in the sense that, all mortal grandeur is dwarfed, darkened by the splendor of Christ.
God shares His glory with no man.

Ask Paul about lowliness, humility, brokenness. A man who proclaimed himself to be less than the least of all the saints.. Yet declared, "Be imitators of me, as I am also of Christ."

Broken like Christ was broken for the brethren.
Brethren considered ignorant and unlearned, unimportant, unknown...destitute, naked, homeless..."of whom the world was not worthy".

And so we must be broken for Christ as living sacrifices upon the altar of God. It is in this brokenness that His glory manifests, priceless treasure in earthen vessels.

This is the divine pattern, for in our weakness is His strength made perfect...
Cuban, the thread is about being dead to sin, not how you feel after committing adultery and murder, and how you feel about the lost. Y'all were discussing Grace in being dead to sin. Christ came to heal the broken heart, not break a broken heart. You had to go off topic and to an OT passage after adultery and murder to make a point the NT walk in victory over sin doesn't make. David was looking to be fixed spiritually and no longer broken. Paul wasn't broken spiritually at all. And neither were talking about being dead to sin. I thought we agreed a lot concerning being dead to sin, but I cannot agree, that which is broken can live dead to sin, when dead to sin is the fix.

Noeb
May 23rd 2014, 09:19 PM
Understood. But power is manifested on our behalf by recognition of our weakness.

Many blessings are found in brokenness. Humility is often overshadowed by the towering glory of our resurrected Christ.The above is what you said that started us down this path. "recognition of our weakness" is not brokenness. Humility is not brokenness. I agree both are present when experiencing power. This fact is evidence the individual is not broken. When they were broken these things were not present.

Noeb
May 23rd 2014, 11:46 PM
I can't find one positive instance of broken in the the NT.

cuban
May 23rd 2014, 11:48 PM
Cuban, the thread is about being dead to sin, not how you feel after committing adultery and murder, and how you feel about the lost. Y'all were discussing Grace in being dead to sin. Christ came to heal the broken heart, not break a broken heart. You had to go off topic and to an OT passage after adultery and murder to make a point the NT walk in victory over sin doesn't make. David was looking to be fixed spiritually and no longer broken. Paul wasn't broken spiritually at all. And neither were talking about being dead to sin. I thought we agreed a lot concerning being dead to sin, but I cannot agree, that which is broken can live dead to sin, when dead to sin is the fix.

Thanks for your thoughtful reply Noeb. Forgive me, I realize I can sometimes tend to get carried away... it eludes me that not all have the same experience though all serve the same Lord.

But can we be dead to sin without being first broken? David was broken and humbled to repentance, by which he knew God in His eternal mercy would not turn away from.
The focus is not David's sin... The spotlight is upon David's brokenness, and God's grace.

David called out to God.. out of NEED.

In the same way, we come as we are to Christ, BROKEN. I confess this NEED to Him everyday for I know I can do nothing apart from Him.
We approach the throne of grace boldly, but in need.... And I don't know about you.. but I need more and more of Him.. and less and less of me.


Dead to sin is the fix, but that state is not the default. In the process of seeking His face all aspects of our souls that do not conform to His image must be broken.
I seek Him early in the morning because without Him I am BROKEN! And upon arriving where He is, joy unspeakable renews me... then I am undone all over again, for His love is overwhelming.

I know we may be at a point of disagreement from previous discussions...
I can hear you now..., "get up off your face and quit wasting that expensive perfume." :), just kidding.
But he who is forgiven much loves much.....knows from whence he came.....and knows very well that the degree of grace he NEEDS is found in complete surrender to the King of kings.



The above is what you said that started us down this path. "recognition of our weakness" is not brokenness. Humility is not brokenness. I agree both are present when experiencing power. This fact is evidence the individual is not broken. When they were broken these things were not present.

Well, the phrases I have used are for the most part interchangeable in my mind. Also, as my thoughts arise I lean towards writing them out sequentially...

recognition of weakness ---> brokenness ---> humility ---> grace ---> power

I can only express my view of His towering glory.. Scripture says it best, please excuse me if it appears that I have magnified it...

"My grace is sufficient for you, for My power is perfected in weakness." ... "For when I may be weak, then I am powerful."

Love to you.

cuban
May 23rd 2014, 11:50 PM
I can't find one positive instance of broken in the the NT.

The bleaker the better. God's riches in grace move for His glory.

Noeb
May 24th 2014, 01:53 PM
But can we be dead to sin without being first broken?No. Sinners are baptism into death.



In the same way, we come as we are to Christ, BROKEN. I confess this NEED to Him everydaySo you are baptized into death everyday? Born again, again, everyday?



for I know I can do nothing apart from Him.Which proves you are not broken.



Dead to sin is the fix, but that state is not the default.Sure it is. All Christians are dead to sin.

Col 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Col 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
Col 3:2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
Col 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
Col 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
Col 3:6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
Col 3:7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.
Col 3:8 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.
Col 3:9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
Col 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

Rom 7:3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
Rom 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
Rom 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.




In the process of seeking His face all aspects of our souls that do not conform to His image must be broken.This not you being broken, but you living the fix.



I seek Him early in the morning because without Him I am BROKEN!But you're not ever without him. The new creature is not broken.



Well, the phrases I have used are for the most part interchangeable in my mind.and there's the rub. In Bible Chat I use Bible language. In my study, meditation, and walk, I use Bible language. And in the Bible, these phrases are not interchangeable. We've been through this. There's a large portion of Christianity that teaches die to self, which goes along perfectly with the teaching of needing to be broken. It's false teaching. Taking up your cross is persecution even to physical death. Denying yourself is choosing his will, way, and life over yours. Only those that are fixed can do this. This teaching combines these two things into one, and since most don't take up their cross, and there's a need to do so, they try in vain to fill the need with this false doctrine, although they do it unknowingly. You're not breaking anything when denying yourself and choosing his will, way, and life over yours. You are living the fix, proving you are not broken.



Also, as my thoughts arise I lean towards writing them out sequentially...

recognition of weakness ---> brokenness ---> humility ---> grace ---> power

I can only express my view of His towering glory.. Scripture says it best, please excuse me if it appears that I have magnified it...

"My grace is sufficient for you, for My power is perfected in weakness." ... "For when I may be weak, then I am powerful."Weakness is limitation, not brokenness.



Love to you.Love you to.

Noeb
May 24th 2014, 01:58 PM
The bleaker the better.Really? You wannna be broken?

Mat 21:44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

Mat 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
Mat 24:43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
Mat 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
Mat 24:45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
Mat 24:46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

Rev 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

Pro 15:13 A merry heart maketh a cheerful countenance: but by sorrow of the heart the spirit is broken.

Pro 17:22 A merry heart doeth good like a medicine: but a broken spirit drieth the bones.

Pro 25:28 He that hath no rule over his own spirit is like a city that is broken down, and without walls.

episkopos
May 24th 2014, 02:06 PM
Psa_34:18 The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.

Noeb
May 24th 2014, 02:57 PM
Psa_34:18 The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.and this is related how?

Psa 34:1 A Psalm of David, when he changed his behaviour before Abimelech; who drove him away, and he departed.


Lets try and stay on topic please."baptism into death"

cuban
May 24th 2014, 03:22 PM
No. Sinners are baptism into death.


If not abiding in Christ then you abide in sin.




So you are baptized into death everyday? Born again, again, everyday?


No, baptized into death once. But I die daily in living my life for Him.




Which proves you are not broken.


Apart from Him, I am.



Sure it is. All Christians are dead to sin.

Col 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Col 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
Col 3:2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
Col 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
Col 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
Col 3:6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
Col 3:7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.
Col 3:8 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.
Col 3:9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
Col 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:


But we are not complete in Him if living in sin.

Verse 1 shows us that we must seek those things of above, where Christ is.
Verses 5, 8 and 10 prove there is a required mortification and putting off of the old followed by a donning of the new man which is Christ.

Dead to sin is not the default. Dead to sin is reckoning ourselves which is followed by the application of faith in putting the new man on.

When we are in Christ then we are dead to sin for only in Him is no sin found.




This not you being broken, but you living the fix.


Living by the Spirit is what explicitly puts the flesh to death. We are dead to sin AS we walk after the Spirit.




But you're not ever without him. The new creature is not broken.


But I seek more of Him continually, and so we continually strive by faith.




and there's the rub. In Bible Chat I use Bible language. In my study, meditation, and walk, I use Bible language. And in the Bible, these phrases are not interchangeable. We've been through this. There's a large portion of Christianity that teaches die to self, which goes along perfectly with the teaching of needing to be broken. It's false teaching. Taking up your cross is persecution even to physical death. Denying yourself is choosing his will, way, and life over yours. Only those that are fixed can do this. This teaching combines these two things into one, and since most don't take up their cross, and there's a need to do so, they try in vain to fill the need with this false doctrine, although they do it unknowingly. You're not breaking anything when denying yourself and choosing his will, way, and life over yours. You are living the fix, proving you are not broken.


Yes, we have been through this. Perhaps we are making some progress in weaving through the limitations of language as we sharpen our iron and better understand each other.

As you know, I do hold to a death of self that I believe is implied in the denial of our will and ways as we follow Him. There is much more there than just the threat of physical danger.
That which is not nourished must die, and this is a process.

But you are introducing a need to be broken I have not expressed. The need I have expressed is that of Christ as we all grow up into Him.

As we abide in Him and walk by the Holy Spirit renewing our minds, our members are broken and mortified.




Weakness is limitation, not brokenness.


I've explained how I believe our weaknesses should lead us to brokenness.



Love you to.

Love you more.

cuban
May 24th 2014, 03:26 PM
Really? You wannna be broken?

Mat 21:44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

Mat 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
Mat 24:43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
Mat 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
Mat 24:45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
Mat 24:46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

Rev 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

Pro 15:13 A merry heart maketh a cheerful countenance: but by sorrow of the heart the spirit is broken.

Pro 17:22 A merry heart doeth good like a medicine: but a broken spirit drieth the bones.

Pro 25:28 He that hath no rule over his own spirit is like a city that is broken down, and without walls.

No, what I intended here was that the more hopeless a situation appears, the more glory God receives when His grace delivers us.

Maybe you would have seen this if your eyes didn't freeze-frame on the first sentence. lol

"God's riches in grace move for His glory."

Noeb
May 24th 2014, 04:00 PM
If not abiding in Christ then you abide in sin.ALL believers are in Christ and do not live in sin. Only the lost stay in sin.



No, baptized into death once. But I die daily in living my life for Him.not biblical. Die daily is in persecution, not to self. Scripture is abundantly clear, that in believing you died once as Christ did, you live unto God. It doesn't say by continually dying, you live unto God.

Rom 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

It doesn't say to yield yourself to God as one that's dying.:idea:

You died, and are now alive! Not dead!

Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.



Apart from Him, I am.Sure, but you are not ever apart from him, unless you reject him to go back into the world, unable to return.



But we are not complete in Him if living in sin.The passage is about being in Christ. All believers are complete, being made alive and have been given all things for living godly. If you sin, you sinned while complete in him, as the new man, but you didn't have to sin.



When we are in Christ then we are dead to sinRight, and all those born again are in Christ, and therefore are dead to sin.



Living by the Spirit is what explicitly puts the flesh to death.You do not put the flesh to death. Again, you are teaching the false doctrine of men. Christ did that for you. You (past tense) crucified the old man by faith in His Cross. Galatians -those that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts......



We are dead to sin AS we walk after the Spirit.that's not what scripture says. You have it backwards. Scripture says you can follow the Spirit because you already are dead to sin. If you weren't, the Spirit would not be in you as your Comforter.



As we abide in Him and walk by the Holy Spirit renewing our minds, our members are broken and mortified.Mortified here doesn't mean dead. Look it up. Here, mortified is the word we use for a mortician, who does not put to death, but makes inoperative. So we make our members powerless/inoperative by believing the gospel. When mortify is found in the KJV and pertains to death it says we (mortify) put to death deeds, not the members. Same english word, two greek words.

Noeb
May 24th 2014, 04:02 PM
No, what I intended here was that the more hopeless a situation appears, the more glory God receives when His grace delivers us.

Maybe you would have seen this if your eyes didn't freeze-frame on the first sentence. lol

"God's riches in grace move for His glory."I know what you meant, but that's off topic, as shown.

cuban
May 24th 2014, 05:42 PM
ALL believers are in Christ and do not live in sin. Only the lost stay in sin.


1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.




not biblical. Die daily is in persecution, not to self. Scripture is abundantly clear, that in believing you died once as Christ did, you live unto God. It doesn't say by continually dying, you live unto God.


I'm not saying it does specifically. I am saying that by living unto God He increases and we decrease. I'm not denying baptismal death is a singular occurrence.

We die once with Christ by faith, but a crucified life is continual. We can of course agree to disagree again.




Rom 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

It doesn't say to yield yourself to God as one that's dying.:idea:

You died, and are now alive! Not dead!

Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.


But if having supposedly died to sin once and yet continuing in sin, then one hasn't actually died to sin have they? No, one merely confesses it and believes it intellectually having a form of godliness yet denying the power thereof.

The abiding doctrine of Christ is the answer, in which we are alive in Him AND dead to the world. There is no separation.




Sure, but you are not ever apart from him, unless you reject him to go back into the world, unable to return.


But there are degrees of intimacy with the Lord.




The passage is about being in Christ. All believers are complete, being made alive and have been given all things for living godly. If you sin, you sinned while complete in him, as the new man, but you didn't have to sin.


We've been through this. The new creation knows no sin, and he who is dead cannot sin.

1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.




Right, and all those born again are in Christ, and therefore are dead to sin.


Justified ---> regenerated and now enabled to be sanctified by faith... not dead to sin by default.




You do not put the flesh to death. Again, you are teaching the false doctrine of men. Christ did that for you. You (past tense) crucified the old man by faith in His Cross. Galatians -those that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts......


You are confusing regeneration with sanctification.

Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.




that's not what scripture says. You have it backwards. Scripture says you can follow the Spirit because you already are dead to sin. If you weren't, the Spirit would not be in you as your Comforter.


Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

IF you are abiding in Christ then you are dead to sin.



Mortified here doesn't mean dead. Look it up. Here, mortified is the word we use for a mortician, who does not put to death, but makes inoperative. So we make our members powerless/inoperative by believing the gospel. When mortify is found in the KJV and pertains to death it says we (mortify) put to death deeds, not the members. Same english word, two greek words.

You quoted it yourself. It means "kill" here: G3499

Col 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

And it also means "kill" here: G2289

Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Let's mortify them both why don't we? Our bodies and their inclinations. :)

Noeb
May 24th 2014, 06:03 PM
LOL, kill your hand eh? How about your arm, or head? Really?
No. deaden members

Was Abraham dead? Or impotent?
Rom 4:19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb:

Heb 11:12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.

Strong:
nekroō
nek-ro'-o
From G3498; to deaden, that is, (figuratively) to subdue: - be dead, mortify.

Thayer Definition:
1) to make dead, to put to death, slay
2) worn out
2a) of an impotent old man
3) to deprive of power, destroy the strength of

We don't call them morticians because they kill.

1Jn 3:6 is present continual and agrees with what I said, "ALL believers are in Christ and do not live in sin. Only the lost stay in sin."

The only crucified life in scripture is as Paul, bearing in the body the dying of the Lord --die daily =persecution.

Dead to sin is our position we are called to walk. It is never used to describe the walk of someone in scripture. Never.

When you sin it is the new creature, not the old. You only have one nature. Once born again you remain the new man, and can be nothing else, unless you forfeit your salvation.

Everyone in Christ is dead to sin. That's why they can overcome sin. Not the other way around.

The "abiding doctrine of Christ" is quite different than that of men.

cuban
May 24th 2014, 06:21 PM
LOL, kill your hand eh? How about your arm, or head? Really? No. Read it! kill "fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness........anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth"
Is that your hand, arm, or head? Nope. Kill 'filthy communication' which comes 'out of your mouth'
After you fill the member, do you then resurrect it for good? LOL

1Jn 3:6 is present continual and agrees with what I said.

The only crucified life in scripture is as Paul, bearing in the body the dying of the Lord --die daily =persecution.

Dead to sin is our position we walk. It is never used to describe a walk of someone in scripture.

When you sin it is the new creature, not the old. You only have one nature.

Everyone in Christ is dead to sin. That's why they can overcome sin. Not the other way around.

The "abiding doctrine of Christ" is quite different than that of men.

Yes, in fact Christ said cut it off if it offends, pluck it out. If necessary... That is, if you want to live, but the old man won't die.

Dead to sin is our position if we are walking in the Spirit, as I have shown with supporting scripture. Not simply believing you are dead to sin hoping you don't sin against God.

If all old things have truly passed away, then all things are new indeed.

The abiding doctrine of Christ is indeed His, so much so that men must die to enter into it.

Noeb
May 24th 2014, 07:03 PM
Yes, in fact Christ said cut it off if it offends, pluck it out. If necessary... I agree he was serious, but that's not what Paul meant.



That is, if you want to live, but the old man won't die.If the old is alive you have not been baptized into his death, his Spirit is not in you, you are none of his, and you're lost.


Was Abraham dead? Or impotent?
Rom 4:19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb:

Heb 11:12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.

Same Greek word as mortify in Col 3.
Strong:
nekroō
nek-ro'-o
From G3498; to deaden, that is, (figuratively) to subdue: - be dead, mortify.

Thayer Definition:
1) to make dead, to put to death, slay
2) worn out
2a) of an impotent old man
3) to deprive of power, destroy the strength of

We don't call them morticians because they kill.



Dead to sin is our position if we are walking in the SpiritIt doesn't say IF you walk in the Spirit.



Not simply believing you are dead to sin hoping you don't sin against God.I didn't imply this



If all old things have truly passed away, then all things are new indeed.but you just said we're only new when in Christ where he is, walking in the Spirit. So which is it?



The abiding doctrine of Christ is indeed His, so much so that men must die to enter into it.and all believers are dead according to scripture.

Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
......
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
.......
Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

Rom 7:3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

cuban
May 24th 2014, 07:34 PM
I agree he was serious, but that's not what Paul meant.


I prefer to examine the scriptures as a whole.




If the old is alive you have not been baptized into his death, his Spirit is not in you, you are none of his, and you're lost.


Amen! The fruit of that death is the manifestation of the new, not the old.




Was Abraham dead? Or impotent?
Rom 4:19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb:

Heb 11:12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.

Same Greek word as mortify in Col 3.
Strong:
nekroō
nek-ro'-o
From G3498; to deaden, that is, (figuratively) to subdue: - be dead, mortify.

Thayer Definition:
1) to make dead, to put to death, slay
2) worn out
2a) of an impotent old man
3) to deprive of power, destroy the strength of

We don't call them morticians because they kill.


I would say that is a different application of the word. Abraham's consideration of his body being subdued by age, is not the same as us reckoning ourselves dead to sin by mortifying our members' deeds.

The word can be interchangeably used to literally or figuratively, "kill".

In our discussion, this slaying is accomplished in union with the Spirit as we walk in Him. What does a mortician do, Noeb?
What are the implications of this if we are to continually abide in Christ by faith?




It doesn't say IF you walk in the Spirit.


Sure it does.

Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

If you through the Spirit ( subdue, put to death, slay ) the deeds of the body, you shall live and not die.




but you just said we're only new when in Christ where he is, walking in the Spirit. So which is it?


I've said nothing contrary.

1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.


The new creation knows no sin, it can only be the old creation that sins. And so dead men live, for the mortician has not properly subdued the corpse in its burial according to the power given Him.




and all believers are dead according to scripture.

Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Rom 7:3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.

All true believers are truly regenerated, but not all true believers are walking with God in sanctification.

Not all that are called are chosen, and many choose not to abide in the True Vine.

Noeb
May 24th 2014, 08:01 PM
In our discussion, this slaying is accomplished in union with the Spirit as we walk in Him. What does a mortician do, Noeb?
What are the implications of this if we are to continually abide in Christ by faith?A mortician doesn't kill, which is what you are suggesting. The implication is that you don't do the killing in your walk because you are already dead, as scripture makes abundantly clear.



Sure it does.

Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

If you through the Spirit ( subdue, put to death, slay ) the deeds of the body, you shall live and not die.That doesn't say, as you did, "Dead to sin is our position if we are walking in the Spirit". Dead to sin ain't there. Those that are dead to sin can mortify deeds through the Spirit. That's what it says.



The new creation knows no sinNo. A believer is in Christ and a new creature and sins..... the new creation sinned. It's that simple.



it can only be the old creation that sins.You are suggesting some form of eastern dualism gnosticism or something. Very popular in the abide doctrine floating around. You are either old or new. You cannot be both and cannot switch between them.



And so dead men live, for the mortician has not properly subdued the corpse in its burial according to the power given Him.....trying not to laugh.....say what? Scripture?



All true believers are truly regenerated, but not all true believers are walking with God in sanctification.but those that remain in Christ don't remain in sin according to John. You posted it earlier. How then do you turn around and say they can remain believers and remain in sin?



Not all that are called are chosenWhat's that got to do with it? Nothing, except you don't understand this passage.



and many choose not to abide in the True Vine.True. Those that do not are apostates. They are not true believers that are not walking with God in sanctification.

Mat 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

cuban
May 24th 2014, 08:44 PM
A mortician doesn't kill, which is what you are suggesting. The implication is that you don't do the killing in your walk because you are already dead, as scripture makes abundantly clear.


If I am truly dead to sin, then why subdue my members? Obviously, our reckoning is accomplished by walking in the Spirit.

Gal 5:16 But I say, Walk in the Spirit, and you will not fulfill the lust of the flesh.
Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another; lest whatever you may will, these things you do.
Gal 5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under Law.





That doesn't say, as you did, "Dead to sin is our position if we are walking in the Spirit". Dead to sin ain't there. Those that are dead to sin can mortify deeds through the Spirit. That's what it says.


It stands to reason that if one is walking in the Spirit, one is dead to sin; walking in the Spirit = abiding in Christ, wherein is no sin.




No. A believer is in Christ and a new creature and sins..... the new creation sinned. It's that simple.


You are deceived.

1Jn 3:9 Everyone who has been begotten of God does not sin, because His seed abides in him, and he is not able to sin, because he has been born of God.

The one practicing righteousness is righteous. I can't advocate sinning religion. Your beef is with scripture, not my paraphrases.




You are suggesting some form of eastern dualism gnosticism or something. Very popular in the abide doctrine floating around. You are either old or new. You cannot be both and cannot switch between them.


Nope. Gnosticism would be me preaching that I can sin and remain in Christ.

Amen to the above in bold though!




but those that remain in Christ don't remain in sin according to John. You posted it earlier. How then do you turn around and say they can remain believers and remain in sin?


The seed can take root but produce no fruit.




True. Those that do not are apostates. They are not true believers that are not walking with God in sanctification.

Mat 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

Which requires a true death and a true walk in holiness, Christ's holiness.

Noeb
May 25th 2014, 02:09 AM
If I am truly dead to sin, then why subdue my members?because you are dead to sin.



Obviously, our reckoning is accomplished by walking in the Spirit.No it's not. your reckoning (counting) is just reckoning (counting). Don't turn counting the gospel true into more than counting the gospel true as watchman nee did.



It stands to reason that if one is walking in the Spirit, one is dead to sinSure. Like I said, you can't follow the Spirit if he is not in you.



walking in the Spirit = abiding in Christscripture?
.......
......
....
........you have none.......



wherein is no sin.Of course Christ didn't sin. Who said he did?



You are deceived.

1Jn 3:9 Everyone who has been begotten of God does not sin, because His seed abides in him, and he is not able to sin, because he has been born of God.

The one practicing righteousness is righteous.Right, but that doesn't mean you cannot sin. It means you won't practice sin, but will practice righteousness.

1Jn 3:9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.



I can't advocate sinning religion.Who asked you to?



Your beef is with scripture, not my paraphrases.No, it's most definitely your phraseology.



Nope. Gnosticism would be me preaching that I can sin and remain in Christ.I didn't say gnosticism. I said, "eastern dualism gnosticism or something". Still, you are claiming when you sin it's something other than what doesn't sin. Pretty close to gnosticism, just a little different, which is why I said what I did. Even in the early church there were many forms of gnosticism. Here's a little NET Bible study that is good for all to read.
http://classic.net.bible.org/dictionary.php?word=gnosticism

The problem is not that you say it's ok to sin. You don't. The gnostic premise that it's the flesh (old man) sinning and not the spirit (new man) is what you are running with. It's not biblical.



The seed can take root but produce no fruit.True. So are they true believers or not? You said, "not all true believers are walking with God in sanctification". From all the scripture I've seen, true believers have fruit, which is what John said. you disagree. How is that?



Which requires a true death and a true walk in holiness, Christ's holiness.So only the sinless are true believers?

cuban
May 25th 2014, 03:31 AM
because you are dead to sin.


Try, because scripture says so.




No it's not. your reckoning (counting) is just reckoning (counting). Don't turn counting the gospel true into more than counting the gospel true as watchman nee did.


I'm not. But I'm sure you can read the scriptures like I can, and I'm sure you would agree that there is a "therefore" which follows our counting.

Let's not deceive ourselves by splitting the gospel in half and denying the power manifested by that faith in application.



Sure. Like I said, you can't follow the Spirit if he is not in you.


And you are not walking in Spirit if you are walking in sin.




scripture?
.......
......
....
........you have none.......


Really? I could copy-paste a compilation here that paints the picture for you, but one should suffice.

1Jn 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.




Right, but that doesn't mean you cannot sin. It means you won't practice sin, but will practice righteousness.

1Jn 3:9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.


And we are full circle concerning our argument of man's nature(s) from months ago. I won't do this again. We agreed to disagree.




I didn't say gnosticism. I said, "eastern dualism gnosticism or something". Still, you are claiming when you sin it's something other than what doesn't sin. Pretty close to gnosticism, just a little different, which is why I said what I did. Even in the early church there were many forms of gnosticism. Here's a little NET Bible study that is good for all to read.
http://classic.net.bible.org/dictionary.php?word=gnosticism

The problem is not that you say it's ok to sin. You don't. The gnostic premise that it's the flesh (old man) sinning and not the spirit (new man) is what you are running with. It's not biblical.


If I was preaching some dualistic heresy it would read something like "there can be no God without Satan", "good" without "evil"...
Insert "new man" without "old man". That's not what I've said. I've said what scripture says:

Rom 6:16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves as slaves for obedience, you are slaves to whom you obey, whether of sin to death, or obedience to righteousness?

Not abiding in Christ = abiding in sin. Period, there is no middle ground. The branch that shows forth no life is dying.


My turn: Can you point me to a scripture where the Holy Spirit tells you He sins with us?




True. So are they true believers or not? You said, "not all true believers are walking with God in sanctification". From all the scripture I've seen, true believers have fruit, which is what John said. you disagree. How is that?


There are many who are sincere in their faith but are trapped in their wickedness... for numerous reasons... but most ultimately boil down to love of self and the refusal to be pruned by the Husbandman of the vineyard.

They have faith, but not a truly repentant-saving-faith...

God is not mocked...Sowing to the flesh reaps corruption.




So only the sinless are true believers?

No, but only true faith enters into Christ's provision in grace which renders the flesh nullified.

Good night.

Noeb
May 25th 2014, 08:10 PM
Try, because scripture says so.

I'm not. But I'm sure you can read the scriptures like I can, and I'm sure you would agree that there is a "therefore" which follows our counting.Yes, It says we are dead, and because we are dead we are free, therefore don't let sin reign. IOW, you can. That, even though you are dead, and because you are dead you are free, you can let sin reign. Counting you are dead and therefore free from sin is walking in the Spirit. This is not mental assent only. This is believing the gospel which results in walking in power. It is because I believe I am dead and therefore free form sin that sin does not reign.



Really? I could copy-paste a compilation here that paints the picture for you, but one should suffice.

1Jn 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked. John is addressing gnosticism, and telling them that believers don't continue living a life of sin, as gnostics did. It in no way says those that abide = sinless. He writes them to inform them of how to know who is saved and who is not, because they were being seduced. That is why he said he was writing them. Do you need these verses?



And we are full circle concerning our argument of man's nature(s) from months ago. I won't do this again. We agreed to disagree.We did not agree to disagree on the born again cannot sin -sinless perfectionism.



If I was preaching some dualistic heresy it would read something like "there can be no God without Satan", "good" without "evil"...
Insert "new man" without "old man". That's not what I've said.I didn't say you did.



I've said what scripture says:

Rom 6:16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves as slaves for obedience, you are slaves to whom you obey, whether of sin to death, or obedience to righteousness?

Not abiding in Christ = abiding in sin. Period, there is no middle ground. The branch that shows forth no life is dying.Yes, those that are not in Christ are sinners.



My turn: Can you point me to a scripture where the Holy Spirit tells you He sins with us?Why would I need to do that? Don't give me this nonsense that if we sin when God is in us he sins too, cuz there's no scriptural basis for it.



There are many who are sincere in their faith but are trapped in their wickedness... for numerous reasons... but most ultimately boil down to love of self and the refusal to be pruned by the Husbandman of the vineyard.That's not trapped, that's rebellion, and certainly not sincere in the faith.



They have faith, but not a truly repentant-saving-faith...Then they're not sincere in their faith.



No, but only true faith enters into Christ's provision in grace which renders the flesh nullified.only true believers are in Christ 'where there is no sin' (as you say), and born of God -abiding 'where there is no sin' (as you say), yet true believers don't have to be sinless.....

.....doesn't make sense cuban

cuban
May 26th 2014, 06:06 AM
Yes, It says we are dead, and because we are dead we are free, therefore don't let sin reign. IOW, you can. That, even though you are dead, and because you are dead you are free, you can let sin reign. Counting you are dead and therefore free from sin is walking in the Spirit. This is not mental assent only. This is believing the gospel which results in walking in power. It is because I believe I am dead and therefore free form sin that sin does not reign.


Do we walk in power, as He walked? Is sin reigning or is Christ on the throne? Is it like a seesaw?

Are we free indeed? Do we say yes because the Bible says so, or yes because that freedom is a manifest reality?

Is it a fantasy that fades in and out, or have we truly died to sin?




John is addressing gnosticism, and telling them that believers don't continue living a life of sin, as gnostics did. It in no way says those that abide = sinless. He writes them to inform them of how to know who is saved and who is not, because they were being seduced. That is why he said he was writing them. Do you need these verses?


How did Jesus Christ walk?

Do we abide in Christ with sin, or without?




We did not agree to disagree on the born again cannot sin -sinless perfectionism.


I was referring to the nature of man and how we agreed to disagree in the "Sinful Nature Abolished" thread.

I don't preach sinless perfectionism.

I preach sin no more as Christ commanded the infirm man by the pool once He had healed him. We are healed so that we may rise up and walk as Christ walked, by His power.

"Lest something worse come upon us."




Yes, those that are not in Christ are sinners.


And if you sin you are not in Christ, for you are walking in the flesh and the flesh is the master you obey, not Christ. Paul was preaching to believers.




Why would I need to do that? Don't give me this nonsense that if we sin when God is in us he sins too, cuz there's no scriptural basis for it.


Lol, exactly the point I am making with the question. I'm glad to see we are on the same page.

Now please, explain to me how it is the new creation that sins. What makes up the new creation?




That's not trapped, that's rebellion, and certainly not sincere in the faith.


Some yes, others no... I'll leave God to be the judge of their hearts, and store up my righteous anger for those that try to justify their sin because of God's grace... when it is grace that has empowered them to no longer sin...




only true believers are in Christ 'where there is no sin' (as you say), and born of God -abiding 'where there is no sin' (as you say), yet true believers don't have to be sinless.....

.....doesn't make sense cuban

I believe there are sincere believers that seek holiness but fail in their own strength repeatedly. I was one.

grams
May 26th 2014, 10:39 AM
We no longer need t be Baptized !

Upon belief and understanding and faith ! WE HAVE IT ALL !

Jesus going to the cross changed it all for us !

Thank you Father !

eph. 2:
7

That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.


8

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:


9

Not of works, lest any man should boast

Noeb
May 26th 2014, 01:38 PM
Do we walk in power, as He walked? Is Christ on the throne?

Are we free indeed? Do we say yes because the Bible says so, or yes because that freedom is a manifest reality?

have we truly died to sin?Yes



How did Jesus Christ walk?In love, relationship, fellowship



Do we abide in Christ with sin, or without?The apostles sinned with Christ when he said abide in me and thereafter. John, who you use for your abide doctrine, said if we sin we have an advocate. If you were not in Christ he would not be your advocate. Paul spoke to those in Christ who still sinned and told them to stop and they didn't need to. The Romans 7 man was in Christ, was sinning, but didn't want to. He finally realized he didn't have to sin any longer.



I was referring to the nature of man and how we agreed to disagree in the "Sinful Nature Abolished" thread.Ah, gotchya. Sounds to me like you are saying we cannot sin if we have truly been born of God. That's how that verse is often misused.



I preach sin no moreSo do I.



And if you sin you are not in ChristYou don't have any scripture to support this. I have the entire NT.



for you are walking in the flesh and the flesh is the master you obey, not Christ. Paul was preaching to believers.To those that could walk in the flesh Paul said the old man is the flesh and died. When we were (past tense) in the flesh, dead, and were sinners, we were held captive, but now we are in another, Christ, and free from the old man's captivity, that we should act differently. Those that "are not in the flesh" can "live after the flesh". You cannot live after the Spirit if you are in the flesh (old man).

Rom 7:3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
Rom 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
Rom 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Rom 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

"in" and "live after -follow"
After saying they are not in the flesh he says they can follow their flesh. So they can be in the Spirit and not follow the Spirit.



Lol, exactly the point I am making with the question. I'm glad to see we are on the same page.No we're not and that is not your point. Your point is that "if we sin when God is in us he sins too" so when we sin he cannot be in us. There's no scripture for this.



Now please, explain to me how it is the new creation that sins. What makes up the new creation?(new man) dust+spirit-Spirit= soul
We've been through this. If you sin, that's what sins -dust+spirit-Spirit= soul. You do not become (old man) dust+spirit= soul when you sin.

Take note of "if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress"
How do you jump between the old and new? The old man died and you are married to another. You are not an adulteress that jumps back and forth between two men.



Some yes, others no... I'll leave God to be the judge of their hearts, and store up my righteous anger for those that try to justify their sin because of God's grace... when it is grace that has empowered them to no longer sin...

I believe there are sincere believers that seek holiness but fail in their own strength repeatedly. I was one.You said, "There are many who are sincere in their faith but are trapped in their wickedness... for numerous reasons... but most ultimately boil down to love of self and the refusal to be pruned by the Husbandman of the vineyard."

The Romans 7 believer was trapped and didn't want to be. "Love of self and the refusal to be pruned by the Husbandman of the vineyard" was not the problem.

cuban
May 26th 2014, 03:48 PM
In love, relationship, fellowship


Don't forget, in holiness, without which none shall see the Lord. Christ walked in the Light, wherein there is NO darkness. NONE, at all.




The apostles sinned with Christ when he said abide in me and thereafter.


:o... let me soak that in for a moment...




John, who you use for your abide doctrine, said if we sin we have an advocate. If you were not in Christ he would not be your advocate.


You mean John, who expounds the abiding doctrine of Christ, said IF we sin we have an advocate.

Now let's be clear.

Christ is not the advocate for willful sinning while claiming to abide in Him. Christ is the advocate which comes to our side and pleads our case, PENDING OUR CONFESSION.

The blood of Christ cleanses from all sin AS WE WALK IN THE LIGHT, not in darkness.

1Jn 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.




Paul spoke to those in Christ who still sinned and told them to stop and they didn't need to. The Romans 7 man was in Christ, was sinning, but didn't want to. He finally realized he didn't have to sin any longer.


Being set free from the Law by regeneration is not sanctification, thus the sinning. You can't consider yourself dead to sin, in sin. In Christ there is no sin.




You don't have any scripture to support this. I have the entire NT.


Ridiculous. Christ's being sinless is the only support I need. Not just the NT, the entire canon testifies to the blameless Lamb of God.




To those that could walk in the flesh Paul said the old man is the flesh and died. When we were (past tense) in the flesh, dead, and were sinners, we were held captive, but now we are in another, Christ, and free from the old man's captivity, that we should act differently. Those that "are not in the flesh" can "live after the flesh".


Amen. And when they live after the flesh, then the flesh is the master they obey, and not Christ. Christ cannot be Lord in their life, for sin reigns supreme.



You cannot live after the Spirit if you are in the flesh (old man).


Amen!




Rom 7:3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
Rom 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
Rom 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Rom 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

"in" and "live after -follow"
After saying they are not in the flesh he says they can follow their flesh. So they can be in the Spirit and not follow the Spirit.


No.

In the Greek it says, "If so be that the Spirit of God is making its home in you." It speaks of sanctification, the building up of the holy dwelling place of God in us.

The Holy Spirit is.... Holy. So Romans 8:9 is better expressed:

You are in the Spirit, and not in the flesh, IF the Spirit of God is making its home in you. Otherwise, you are in the flesh, and not in Christ.

You continue confusing regeneration with sanctification.




No we're not and that is not your point. Your point is that "if we sin when God is in us he sins too" so when we sin he cannot be in us. There's no scripture for this.


No, my point is God has no part in sin, none whatsoever. My point is, our master is to whom we yield ourselves to serve. My point is, what scripture's point is.

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Can the Holy Spirit dwell in a defiled abode? No. But unclean spirits do.

Mat 12:43 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.
Mat 12:44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.
Mat 12:45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.





(new man) dust+spirit-Spirit= soul
We've been through this. If you sin, that's what sins -dust+spirit-Spirit= soul. You do not become (old man) dust+spirit= soul when you sin.

Take note of "if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress"
How do you jump between the old and new? The old man died and you are married to another. You are not an adulteress that jumps back and forth between two men.


This is ludicrous. dust+spirit-Spirit Equals dust+spirit.

You assert that a Holy woman cannot become a harlot, but you are in error. You are misinterpreting the verse. The old husband must DIE so that that the new Husband can abide.

Regeneration in betrothal, and sanctification in wedlock.




You said, "There are many who are sincere in their faith but are trapped in their wickedness... for numerous reasons... but most ultimately boil down to love of self and the refusal to be pruned by the Husbandman of the vineyard."

The Romans 7 believer was trapped and didn't want to be. "Love of self and the refusal to be pruned by the Husbandman of the vineyard" was not the problem.

Romans 7 is the observation of the grand enmity between flesh and Spirit, forever at war. Romans 8 is the solution to the battle, walk in the Spirit to slay the flesh.

Most are blinded to the observation, and others hold the truth in unrighteousness.

episkopos
May 26th 2014, 03:53 PM
Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
The apostles sinned with Christ when he said abide in me and thereafter.


Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.


Jesus had to ascend to the Father before the disciples could enter into Christ and abide in His Father's house (Zion). It is the resurrection of Jesus Christ that causes us to walk in newness of life.

Noeb
May 26th 2014, 04:31 PM
Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.


Jesus had to ascend to the Father before the disciples could enter into Christ and abide in His Father's house (Zion). It is the resurrection of Jesus Christ that causes us to walk in newness of life.
Agreed. I didn't say otherwise.

ProDeo
May 27th 2014, 07:54 AM
and there's the rub. In Bible Chat I use Bible language. In my study, meditation, and walk, I use Bible language. And in the Bible, these phrases are not interchangeable. We've been through this. There's a large portion of Christianity that teaches die to self, which goes along perfectly with the teaching of needing to be broken. It's false teaching. Taking up your cross is persecution even to physical death. Denying yourself is choosing his will, way, and life over yours. Only those that are fixed can do this. This teaching combines these two things into one, and since most don't take up their cross, and there's a need to do so, they try in vain to fill the need with this false doctrine, although they do it unknowingly. You're not breaking anything when denying yourself and choosing his will, way, and life over yours. You are living the fix, proving you are not broken.
:thumbsup:
.

ProDeo
May 27th 2014, 08:04 AM
I've explained how I believe our weaknesses should lead us to brokenness.
I would say that brokenness is the realization what Paul went through when he said;

Romans 7:15 - For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate.

16 Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good.

17 So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.

18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out.

19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing.

20 Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.

21 So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand.

22 For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being,

23 but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members.

24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?

25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!

-----------

What do you say?

ProDeo
May 27th 2014, 08:25 AM
1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
Taking this literally then we are all lost so that can't be what John was addressing.

Reading in context (verse 4) makes it clear what John is saying, whosoever sinneth [makes a habit of sin] hath not seen him, neither known him.

cuban
May 27th 2014, 10:44 AM
I would say that brokenness is the realization what Paul went through when he said;

Romans 7:15 - For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate.

16 Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good.

17 So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.

18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out.

19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing.

20 Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.

21 So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand.

22 For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being,

23 but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members.

24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?

25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!

-----------

What do you say?

My sentiments exactly.



Taking this literally then we are all lost so that can't be what John was addressing.

Reading in context (verse 4) makes it clear what John is saying, whosoever sinneth [makes a habit of sin] hath not seen him, neither known him.

Amen. Those who remain, stay, and abide in Christ are not sinning. How could they living as if risen from the dead? How could they sin as if dead, and Christ living through them?

episkopos
May 27th 2014, 10:48 AM
Taking this literally then we are all lost so that can't be what John was addressing.

Reading in context (verse 4) makes it clear what John is saying, whosoever sinneth [makes a habit of sin] hath not seen him, neither known him.

The "habit" of sinning??? That would be like the permissible one-off killings as opposed to mass murder or being a hit-man?

episkopos
May 27th 2014, 11:12 AM
In Bible Chat I use Bible language. In my study, meditation, and walk, I use Bible language.

Is bible language like church-talk?



And in the Bible, these phrases are not interchangeable. We've been through this. There's a large portion of Christianity that teaches die to self, which goes along perfectly with the teaching of needing to be broken. It's false teaching.

Actually a large portion of they in Christendom refuse to give up their lives. If we seek to save our lives will we preserve them?


Taking up your cross is persecution even to physical death.

This is your private viewpoint that does not line up with the bible.




Denying yourself is choosing his will, way, and life over yours. Only those that are fixed can do this.

Fixed? God doesn't try to fix us. We are not in need of renovation. We need to lay down our lives in order to take up a new life.



This teaching combines these two things into one, and since most don't take up their cross, and there's a need to do so, they try in vain to fill the need with this false doctrine, although they do it unknowingly. You're not breaking anything when denying yourself and choosing his will, way, and life over yours. You are living the fix, proving you are not broken.

So where do you go to get persecuted and then crucified?

Noeb
May 27th 2014, 02:29 PM
Is bible language like church-talk?No, it's Spirit talk.



Actually a large portion of they in Christendom refuse to give up their lives. I didn't comment on what they do, just what they teach. However, most that follow a form of die to self doctrine will disagree with you and say they do bear their cross daily.



This is your private viewpoint that does not line up with the bible.I'm not alone so it's not private, not to mention Paul, who lived Jesus' words more than any, agrees.



Fixed? God doesn't try to fix us. We are not in need of renovation. We need to lay down our lives in order to take up a new life. The Cross fixed us, and indeed renews us, but you have to believe it.



So where do you go to get persecuted and then crucified?
Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

ProDeo
May 27th 2014, 04:44 PM
Amen. Those who remain, stay, and abide in Christ are not sinning.
Amen :cool:

Hebr 12:1 - Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,

2 looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.

ProDeo
May 27th 2014, 05:57 PM
The "habit" of sinning??? That would be like the permissible one-off killings as opposed to mass murder or being a hit-man?
That is what John states, in context;

4 Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness.

5 You know that he appeared to take away sins, and in him there is no sin.

6 No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him.

7 Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous.

8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning.

------------

You can't just isolate v6 and build docrtrine.

episkopos
May 27th 2014, 06:08 PM
That is what John states, in context;

4 Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness.

5 You know that he appeared to take away sins, and in him there is no sin.

6 No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him.

7 Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous.

8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning.

------------

You can't just isolate v6 and build docrtrine.


Can you help me find the Greek words for "practice" in verse 4 or "keep on" in the text? I'm better in Hebrew...

Thanks

ProDeo
May 27th 2014, 10:45 PM
Can you help me find the Greek words for "practice" in verse 4 or "keep on" in the text? I'm better in Hebrew...

Thanks
I am not familiar with both ;)

But I can tell you this, you can not build a doctrine on one sentence.

If sinless perfection were true then Scripture would breath it all over.

6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. [KJV]

This sentence without context is a contradiction in itself.

Without context it states we are lost the moment of a sin.

We know that's not true.

episkopos
May 27th 2014, 11:27 PM
I am not familiar with both ;)

But I can tell you this, you can not build a doctrine on one sentence.

If sinless perfection were true then Scripture would breath it all over.

6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. [KJV]

This sentence without context is a contradiction in itself.

Without context it states we are lost the moment of a sin.

We know that's not true.

We only know that we sin when we are not walking in the salvation power of God. But the race is not over until it's over. The righteous fall 7 times but each time they get up again...and push forward into Christ.

ProDeo
May 28th 2014, 12:03 AM
We only know that we sin when we are not walking in the salvation power of God.

Correct.


But the race is not over until it's over.

Correct.


The righteous fall 7 times but each time they get up again...and push forward into Christ.

Correct given that 7 is an undefined number.

And in the meantime our status is "saved".

Only exception Hebr 6:4-6

Noeb
May 28th 2014, 01:20 AM
Can you help me find the Greek words for "practice" in verse 4 or "keep on" in the text? I'm better in Hebrew...

Thanks
Yes, the Greek for sinneth is present continual, so the translators of the modern translations write it as such instead of how the kjb translators used Tisdale's use of eth to indicate present continual.

mailmandan
May 28th 2014, 11:12 AM
Yes, the Greek for sinneth is present continual, so the translators of the modern translations write it as such instead of how the kjb translators used Tisdale's use of eth to indicate present continual.

Amen! The word practice refers to those who "make a practice of doing" such things, as a pattern of life. To stumble and sin intermittently is different than making these behaviors a lifestyle. The idea is to perform repeatedly or habitually and thus describes repetition or continuous action. The present describes the practice as habitual, as one's lifestyle or bent of life. Those who practice such sins (Galatians 5:19-21) demonstrate that they are not born of God (1 John 3:8-9).

Gadgeteer
Jun 5th 2014, 04:44 AM
τοῦ βαπτίσματος εἰς τὸν θάνατον
tou baptismatos into ton thanaton
("baptism into death")Greek. Kewl! :D


This verse was posted on screen prior to a baptism which took place at my church - Romans 6:4, there are a number of English ways to read it.


Context: Romans 5:21 > 6:7

21so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. 1What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? 2May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? 3Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. 5For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; 7for he who has died is freed from sin. (NASB)
Romans6:3-4 has nothing to do with water; it is The Baptism of Eph4:5, and it is the Baptism of Luke12:50 (which blatantly does NOT have anything to do with water).

It is to be UNITED with Christ's death, the old self dies; likewise, we are united with His resurrection --- "As Christ was raised from the dead, so too shall we walk in newness of life."


Before breaking out a heavy load of Greek, here is the way in which I asked myself about the different ways to read verse 4. I have inserted dashes to assist into two reading for emphasis sake:

1) Therefore we have been buried with him - through baptism - into death
2) Therefore we have been buried with him through - baptism into death.

As I thought of what these different readings could imply... I realized I would need to get deeper into the Greek. Without any conception of what I would find, I have become aware that at times, articles "a" and "the" are omitted by the translators that can clarify things for us. :(

The reason I have posted the NASB above, is that it has used a sort of "clean up" method in omitting some Greek articles that appear, perhaps "unnecessary" in English. But I ask: "if read aloud in the churches of Rome, should we not read with them also?" (meaning every Greek word).

The Greek reads, word for word:

[we were baptized] [therefore] [of/into him] [the/one] [baptism] [into] [the/one] [death].
http://biblehub.com/interlinear/romans/6-4.htm

The blue is omitted by the NASB. To diagnose the reason why the translators omitted the articles, I suggest that NASB inserts context as it appears to them to defining personal baptism (my guess of their view - a baptism perhaps either by water, or spirit, but in either case, related to our personal baptism event). Nope, it simply means "immersed into His death". In Rom6:1-7 five words are used interchangeably:
1. Died
2. Crucified
3. Buried
4. Immersed
5. UNITED

All five words mean the same thing; to become joined to Jesus through His death, AND through His resurrection.


"If anyone be in Christ [b]he is a new creation; the old has passed away (died!!!!!), behold all has become new (raised in newness of life!!!)." 2Cor5:17


However, the NASB has changed some terminology, and mingled some ideas that were not being asserted in the text.

A literal translation of the rest of verse 4-5:
that even as Christ was raised up out of the dead through the glory of the Father, so also we in newness of life might walk. 5For, if we have become planted together to the likeness of his death, [so] also we shall be of the rising again;

Here the understanding is quite clear that there are two things which liken us to Christ, his death, and bodily resurrection (Gospel fundamentals). Our newness of life is tied to his resurrection. It is what gives us the right or ability to walk in newness of life. The word for newness [2538. kainotÚs] is this akin to "eternal life".No, we are "united in His resurrection" --- we are ADOPTED/BEGOTTEN/BORN-from-above.

And that is a position in which we must walk; as Eph4:22-24 says, "LAY aside the old man which is being corrupted in the lusts of deceit; BE RENEWED in the spirit of your mind; PUT ON the new man which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth..."


Hypothesis:
'the baptism' and 'the death' are a single and certain baptism, defined as Christ's singular death. His one single death is applicable to the group of people to whom Paul writes (the we). Therefore Paul is not speaking of each of us in an individual sense. He speaks of us as a whole, not all individually.He's speaking individually; see the rest of chapter 6 --- "CONSIDER YOURSELVES dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus, do not continue presenting yourselves as instruments of sin but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead."

The chapter begins with Paul speaking of himself, individually --- "Shall I continue in sin that grace may abound? Never! How shall I who have died to sin, still live in it?"

Paul individually died to sin, he therefore calls each of US to die to sin and become alive through Jesus.


(he does not say either: "we each were", or "every one of us"). The Baptism of Repentance (John's Baptism), of which Jesus Christ ceremonially participated and said was necessary for righteousness is then - in spiritual terms - a baptism which symbolizes nothing more than faith in Christ's ministry (which was his death). Romans6 is not water.


Conclusion:
The assertion is often made, that Romans 6:1-7 are relating Christ's sinless life, as a fundamental similarity (a requirement) with respect to our day to day living. This is false. The passage simply asserts that our "newness" or "refreshing" of life, is will resemble Christ's Glory in resurrection, or, that our hope of resurrection is assured to be the same as Christ's resurrection.It is, quite simply, a union with Christ -- we are joined to His crucifixion in that our old sinful flesh is crucified WITH Jesus on His Cross. And we are joined to His resurrection in that we are now new righteous creatures.

In that, diligence of us is required TO continue in Christ (walk!), and not to walk in sin.


Discussion:
Romans 6:8-11 demonstrate the principle of a future life:
8And if we died with Christ, we believe that we also shall live with him,

(i.e your hope of new life is in living with Christ in bodily resurrection)

9knowing that Christ, having been raised up out of the dead, doth no more die, death over him hath no more lordship; 10for in that he died, to the sin he died once, and in that he liveth, he liveth to God; 11so also ye, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to the sin, and living to God in Jesus Christ our Lord.

What does it mean in practicality to reckon (consider) yourself to be dead to sin? It means quite simply that you should regard yourself with the same mindset which Christ is regarded, eternally alive, and sinless. Does this mean you have attained sinlessness in your every day living. Absolutely not. It is simply encouragement to keep your mind on the eternal, on everlasting life.It means we now have a pursuit of sinlessness, by pursuing JESUS and by filling ourselves with the Spirit! Eph5:18!


Many terrible conclusions can be drawn from the idea that Christians live a sinless life after believing/conversion. The worst, is the accusation that a transgression causes loss of salvation. Another is that our 'walking' in this present life is necessarily either glorified or powerful. If indeed we are always glorified and sinless, what sense does it make to preach the Beatitudes? We are EITHER dead to sin and alive to God through Jesus (saved!), OR we are alive to sin and dead to God (unsaved). Rom8:12-13 says if we live according to the lusts of the flesh we must die; but if by the Spirit we put to death the flesh, we live.


We are not told our lives are sinless, not at all. Eph 4 says:
22ye are to put off concerning the former behaviour the old man, that is corrupt according to the desires of the deceit, 23and to be renewed in the spirit of your mind, 24and to put on the new man, which, according to God, was created in righteousness and kindness of the truth.And if we do not do that --- where are we? Still "saved"?

(No.)


It is not then about behavior attaining perfection, but simply a mental state of mind which accepts our "new" identity. It is really nothing more than mediating on Godliness, which inspires truthfulness.Oh yes it is --- it is a COMMUNION with God, through the persons of Jesus and the Spirit; and entering into the very presence of the Father, behind the veil.


It is a contrast of either deceitfulness/truthfulness. {note the similarity between Paul's epistles and John's: lie/darkness, vs. truth/light}

Do not make baptism about a personal death to 'ourselves' because we don't have "two selves", Christ died to set you, yourself, your normal self, FREE. Not free-of sin, but free from a sin-master. Paul personifies sin as a master, it is therefore Christ as master from whom you now will receive wages (which are resurrection to new life).Understand "baptism" in Rom6:3-4 and Eph4:5 has nothing to do with water; it's the SAME waterless baptism in Lk12:50, and Matt3:11-12.


"The wages of sin is death" (Rom 6:23) is to do with the concept of the servant receiving his wages from the master. If sin is your master, you can only receive death, but if Jesus your master, eternal life. That's true; but we are EITHER in sin (dead), OR in Christ (not in sin, saved).

Make a choice; daily.


(In that time frame a servant could be set free from slavery, but upon freedom he was without any property or much rights, and would be required to set up a contract by which he would then be paid small wages for his labor. In effect, sin being a master is the hopeless situation for which slaves of the day were in, unable to pay-off their debts for housing and food - perpetually enslaved to the same master, but for 'wages'. A sin master pays in death. To bet set free from the sin master is to be liberated from an 'eternal' cycle of death)In Luke9:23 Jesus says "take up your cross DAILY".

What do you think He meant?


Jesus being Lord of your life has nothing to do with sinlessness, or flawless servants, but simply means that you have a contract (Jesus death) to receive different wages. Baptism is transferring your ownership over to Christ, instead of a master of sin.

It is not a superficial mental-assent "surface contract", it is a true union, a MARRIAGE between two people. The bridegroom (Jesus!), and the bride (you and me!). It is an indwelt fellowship of love; and nothing less suffices!!!

Aijalon
Jul 4th 2014, 03:07 AM
Only two responses, and you can keep the rest as the last word.

I agree that the baptism in mind is not the baptism of water, but the baptism of spiritual renewal. However, there is nothing about daily repetition of this process of baptism in Romans 6, so all this daily business you speak of - not applicable.

jesus died once, rose once. And unless you address the specificity of that, and the necessary Greek discussion of the singularity of it, there is no need to discuss with you further. We are saved once (baptized into his death once) and we'll rise and be renewed into new life, once - at resurrection.

The other response is to the last point. The Bridegroom thing is about one thing only, which is Jesus Christ coming again in Glory, and "marrying" with the world in full physical revelation of himself. The coming of the bridegroom pertains to that and that only, and any idea of "marriage" into full union with Christ earlier than the second coming, is out of place.

The marriage of the Lamb is a future event that pertains to the millenial kingdom.

Gadgeteer
Jul 4th 2014, 05:31 AM
Only two responses, and you can keep the rest as the last word.

I agree that the baptism in mind is not the baptism of water,It's clear; it is the "uniting with Jesus, with His death and resurrection" --- Luke12:52.


but the baptism of spiritual renewal. However, there is nothing about daily repetition of this process of baptism in Romans 6, so all this daily business you speak of - not applicable. Yes it is; not that we "get baptized daily", but rather we abide IN the baptism as we abide in Him.

Romans6 says "consider yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus; do not go on presenting the members of your bodies as instruments of unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead and your bodies as instruments of righteousness."

It's plainly saying "keep on doing this" --- which is keep on BEING united/immersed/baptized in His death and resurrection. Not keep getting immersed/united.


jesus died once, rose once. And unless you address the specificity of that, and the necessary Greek discussion of the singularity of it, there is no need to discuss with you further.I agree with you; but once "united", does not mean "always united". Else we would NOT be warned not to "keep submitting to unrighteousness, but (keep) submitting to righteousness".

Make sense?


We are saved once (baptized into his death once) and we'll rise and be renewed into new life, once - at resurrection.While technically true, the "abiding-thing" is an inherent part; else Eph4:22-24 would make no sense. "LAY ASIDE the old sinful man, BE RENEWED in your spirit, PUT ON the new righteous man".

If it was a "once-and-done-deal", and not something in which we must abide, Eph4:22-24 (and dozens of like verses) make no sense.


The other response is to the last point. The Bridegroom thing is about one thing only, which is Jesus Christ coming again in Glory, and "marrying" with the world in full physical revelation of himself. The coming of the bridegroom pertains to that and that only, and any idea of "marriage" into full union with Christ earlier than the second coming, is out of place.I think this is not a big issue; we are no less united with Christ spiritually NOW, than when we are with Him physically. We are fully saved now; we are fully saved when He returns if we CONTINUE in Him.

See 1Jn2:26-28 --- we are to ABIDE in Him, SO THAT we not shrink in shame (because of being found in unrepented sin!) when He returns.


The marriage of the Lamb is a future event that pertains to the millenial kingdom.

The "marriage of the Lamb", or "marriage supper of the Lamb", are simply euphemisms for salvation itself; as I said, it's not a big deal. I just would like people to realize we can be as close to Him spiritually NOW, as when He returns physically. Why wait for that "behind-the-veil intimacy", when He wants us to have it now?

:-)

Aijalon
Jul 7th 2014, 10:06 PM
Okay.... sure.... and Paul looked forward to his death and full union with Christ, because.... why? Oh, yes, it's because in this life even he, who had all manner of spiritual gifts, knew he saw only through a dim mirror.

you simply cannot have 100% full intimacy or whatever it is you think you've found behind the "veil" now, in this life. It's simply impossible. You can't have eternal life, in a dead body my friend. You can be a woman at the well, drinking in the words and peace and life from Christ, but Christ was telling her that he, his body, his blood, and his presence, is the source of eternal life. Therefore without physical access to Jesus, which you don't have. You don't have eternal life, but you are perhaps moments away.

I mean, dude, if it were possible to have all the wonder of eternal life right now, why would we ever want to go to be with Jesus! :dunno:

What faith group/denomination do you identify with?