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ProDeo
May 20th 2014, 03:45 PM
Eternal Life is a NT concept.

I wonder how the Jews in Jesus time understood it.

It could be different the way I (we) understand it today.

I mean, we also believe Scripture teaches the immortal soul, meaning everyone already has Eternal Life.

So why does Jesus speak of Eternal Life while He essentially means the place and quality of Eternal Life?

Puzzled.....

LandShark
May 20th 2014, 04:01 PM
Eternal Life is a NT concept.

Really?

Heb 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
Heb 11:18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:
Heb 11:19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

There are many examples that can be shared but clearly even Abraham believed in a resurrection.

Walls
May 20th 2014, 04:44 PM
Eternal Life is a NT concept.

I wonder how the Jews in Jesus time understood it.

It could be different the way I (we) understand it today.

I mean, we also believe Scripture teaches the immortal soul, meaning everyone already has Eternal Life.

So why does Jesus speak of Eternal Life while He essentially means the place and quality of Eternal Life?

Puzzled.....

You have touched an important theme that many Christian bible students get stumbled by. The reason for their problem is that the scriptures that mention Eternal Life are divided into two sections - one which promise that a man can HAVE Eternal Life, and these scriptures always connect it to faith, and one which promise that a man can INHERIT or ENTER Eternal Life. This second batch are always connected to works. And it is here that that bible students stumble. Here are the two batches;

(1) Those who may HAVE Eternal Life by FAITH
John 3:15
That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
John 5:39
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
John 6:54
Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 10:28
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
John 17:2-3
As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
Acts 13:48
And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
1 John 5:11
And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
1 John 5:13
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
Titus 1:2
In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began; (context)
Titus 3:7
That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
1 John 1:2
(For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)
1 John 2:25
And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.
1 John 3:15
Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
1 John 5:20
And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

(2) Those who may ENTER or INHERIT Eternal life by their WORKS
Matthew 19:16
And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? (See Lord’s answer)
Matthew 25:46
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Mark 10:17
And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?
Mark 10:30
But he shall receive (future) an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.
Luke 10:25
And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
Luke 18:18
And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
John 4:36
And he that reapeth receiveth wages, and gathereth fruit unto life eternal: that both he that soweth and he that reapeth may rejoice together.
John 12:25
He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.
Romans 2:7
To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Romans 5:21
That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
1 Timothy 6:12
Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.
1 Timothy 6:19
Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.
Jude 21
Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

How shall we reconcile the two aspects of “eternal life” established above?

Much can be, and should be, written. My own short paper on this runs 10 A4 pages but nobody reads postings like that. So here is a summary to help.

Man has human life, but for the achieving of God's purposes, man is placed in front of the Tree of Life. If a man eats from the Tree of Life, the fruit goes INTO him and becomes ONE with him. He then HAS Eternal Life. But what does this Eternal Life do. It raises a man in ability, not only to achieve God's purposes with him, but it raises the man in ability to enjoy God's things. The best example of this is a dog. A dog has a dog's life. He does and achieves doggy things, and few there are who don't love dogs. He loves, and is loyal to, his master. He loves a big piece of meat. He loves the warmth of a fire and he loves the company of his master. But if the master turns on the TV, or goes to the opera, and the dog is with him, the dog is left cold by both. His doggy life does not allow the enjoyment of a good movie, documentary or Bach's music. You would say that the dog has doggy life and enjoys it up the limit of doggy life.

So too the man. He possesses human-life and enjoys all things that go with it. But he cannot enjoy things up to the standard of God. For instance, no man willingly seeks or enjoys fellowship with God. Rather, like Adam, he likes to hide from God. But God has promised that at His right hand are joys forever more (Ps.16:11). So unless a man is endowed with God's Life, his natural tendency is to run from God. He does not possess the ability to enjoy divine things.

Any man who believes into Jesus Christ and His finished work automatically HAS Eternal Life. This makes him capable of being in God's image and likeness, and it makes him capable of being a "help meet" for Jesus - that is, the Bride of the Divine-Man Jesus. It also empowers him to be able to subdue and rule the earth sea and sky (Gen.1:26-28). When one day, these regenerate men, that is, men with a New and Divine Life, are manifested and made kings of the earth, the type of rule on earth will be Divinely Inspired - that is, it will be a rule of Life (Rom.5:17, 21). The regenerated men will not only HAVE Eternal Life, but they will ENJOY all that it entails AND bring the pleasures of it to earth. Romans 14:17 confirms;

"For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost."

The UN-regenerated men will NOT HAVE Eternal Life. But if their WORKS were not found to be opposing God, and they followed their conscience in their WORKS, then these men will be allowed to be the SUBJECTS of the Life-Kings established above. That is, they do NOT HAVE Eternal Life but they may ENTER it. The best example of this is the judgement of the Sheep and the Goats of Matthew 25:32-46. Here we have the NATIONS who survive the Great Tribulation. The NATIONS are unbelievers. If they were believers they would not be called "ALL nations" because the believers are taken OUT of the nations for the Church (Eph.2:15). Added to this, the Church will already have judged by Christ in the air after their rapture. During the Great Tribulation the Remnant of the Jews and the Slothful Christians will be on earth and persecuted (see Rev. Chapter 12). Some of the NATIONS will follow the Beast's persecution of "least of the Lord's brethren", and some of the nations will help these Christians and Jews. When Jesus returns, he judges the living on what they DID (their works) in the Great Tribulation. And based on whether they opposed God by opposing His people, or whether they helped Christ by helping His brethren, they either enter the Lake of Fire (the second death) OR, they ENTER LIFE. That is, those who helped Jews and Christians during the Great Tribulation may be subjects in Christ's Millennial Kingdom and they may ENJOY all that it brings - long life, health, no war, no weapons produced, great harvests, righteous judges and kings and God's favor. But they can NEVER HAVE Eternal Life.

I hope this brief explanation starts you on the journey of understanding the difference between HAVING Eternal Life, and ENTERING or INHERITING Life.

God Bless.

Aijalon
May 20th 2014, 04:46 PM
So why does Jesus speak of Eternal Life while He essentially means the place and quality of Eternal Life?

Puzzled.....

I can see you are puzzled, I would be too! :P

There is something strange here, you suppose that Jesus spoke of eternal life as something other than what it simply was?

Um, can you have eternal life, temporarily? Is eternal life NOT to do with his resurrection, and your resurrection?

When he says he will give you living water to drink, which make you never thirst, do you think he means he's just going to make you stop feeling depressed? No. He means he's going to give you spiritual renewal in the most fundamental and real sense. A bodily resurrection into a fully realized immortal body.

This is the quest of the secret societies, to find immortality apart from Christ. That is what alchemy is.

Christians simply have faith in Christ, who promises them immortality. That's all eternal life means in a nutshell.

John 8:32
May 20th 2014, 04:48 PM
Really?

Heb 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
Heb 11:18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:
Heb 11:19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

There are many examples that can be shared but clearly even Abraham believed in a resurrection.

Here is another...

Job 14:13 O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!
Job 14:14 If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.
Job 14:15 Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.

Aijalon
May 20th 2014, 04:50 PM
Eternal Life is a NT concept.

I wonder how the Jews in Jesus time understood it.

It could be different the way I (we) understand it today.

YOu have a point, it may be different.

Did you consider that Jesus blew their minds apart with some brand new information? He did speak to Jews, and in Jewish ways, and for Jewish reasons. Why should it puzzle us that our understanding varies from theirs. Our state of revelation is higher, we've got more information. :D


They thought they were "gathered to their people". I don't even know what that means.

Fenris
May 20th 2014, 04:56 PM
Eternal Life is a NT concept.

It isn't, although it isn't explicitly spelled out anywhere in the OT. The first century Pharisees definitely believed in an afterlife, as opposed to the Saducees, who did not (see Matthew 22:23).

I will try to peruse the Talmud for any first-century beliefs on the subject, I have some idea where I want to look.

ProDeo
May 20th 2014, 05:49 PM
It isn't, although it isn't explicitly spelled out anywhere in the OT. The first century Pharisees definitely believed in an afterlife, as opposed to the Saducees, who did not (see Matthew 22:23).
Yes.


I will try to peruse the Talmud for any first-century beliefs on the subject, I have some idea where I want to look.
Thank you my friend.

ProDeo
May 20th 2014, 06:27 PM
I can see you are puzzled, I would be too! :P

There is something strange here, you suppose that Jesus spoke of eternal life as something other than what it simply was?
If you believe in eternal separation from God in the LOF, then obviously there is some sort of confusion. Life in the LOF is also eternal, right?

That's what I am trying to get clear, see the subject line.

Aijalon
May 20th 2014, 06:51 PM
If you believe in eternal separation from God in the LOF, then obviously there is some sort of confusion. Life in the LOF is also eternal, right?

That's what I am trying to get clear, see the subject line.

I don't think you were very clear in the start, but that's okay, I misunderstood you because I think of it differently.

So you are wondering if Jews thought about a "LOF"?

If eternal life in the lake of fire is also "eternal life" this blows up what Jesus taught.

Eternal life in him is eternally living in an immortal body which is ALIVE. A LIVING BODY. :D

If I am messing up your thread because I don't have answers about what Jews of Jesus' day thought of eternal life, I'll gladly duck out, I really am not quite sure what they thought. But I think the bottom line is that Jesus upset their view, whatever it was, by speaking of eternal life in a new way.

eternal life is immortality - granted by faith in Him, and caused directly through the work of the Spirit, which is living water. The Spirit is Power also, yes, but impartations of power are not what eternal life is all about. People are frequently mistaking what the power of the spirit for living in a fallen world is, for the eternal life we will live in God in immortality.


Living in a lake of fire forever, that is not immortality. It is eternal death. It is a human spirit, removed from it's body, and condemned to eternal suffering.

Sorry if I am not on track with where you are going.......

mikebr
May 20th 2014, 06:51 PM
Eternal Life is a NT concept.

I wonder how the Jews in Jesus time understood it.

It could be different the way I (we) understand it today.

I mean, we also believe Scripture teaches the immortal soul, meaning everyone already has Eternal Life.

So why does Jesus speak of Eternal Life while He essentially means the place and quality of Eternal Life?

Puzzled.....
In our Baptist Sunday School literature a few months back, they said that Eternal live was a quality of life. Since God is eternal, then having that God life in us, Christ in us, is the way Paul put it, seems to be what is being spoken of.

Aijalon
May 20th 2014, 06:59 PM
That's just it. You do not already have eternal life. It is in your future.

Salvation, likewise, is also in your future, it is the time at which you receive the kingdom, and are saved from a body of death (in which your spirit now literally lives).

A living spirit is one thing, a living body another. Your body is NOT TRULY ALIVE, it is dying!

When we speak of eternal life "now" (as per the thread on baptism into death which I posted yesterday) we are mistaking what eternal life really is.

Eternal life is the thing which you are granted the right to have at such time as you are judged, and are deemed righteous.

your judgement is assured to be final, and assured to be favorable, on account of Grace and the Advocacy of Christ (for all are judged).

The "right" to become a full son is granted to you upon your acquiring a status of faith, you are immediately justified on account of the progressive, continuing forgiveness of the Father, on account of your new identity as a child of God, and through your faith into the baptism of Christ. :D

Your status changes from unrighteous to righteous. It changes from rebellious son, to "heir with Christ".

mikebr
May 20th 2014, 07:01 PM
I find this extremely interesting.


Traditional Judaism firmly believes that death (http://www.jewfaq.org/defs/death.htm) is not the end of human existence. However, because Judaism is primarily focused on life here and now rather than on the afterlife, Judaism does not have much dogma about the afterlife, and leaves a great deal of room for personal opinion. It is possible for an Orthodox (http://www.jewfaq.org/defs/orthodox.htm) Jew to believe that the souls of the righteous dead go to a place similar to the Christian heaven, or that they are reincarnated through many lifetimes, or that they simply wait until the coming of the messiah (http://www.jewfaq.org/defs/messiah.htm), when they will be resurrected. Likewise, Orthodox Jews can believe that the souls of the wicked are tormented by demons of their own creation, or that wicked souls are simply destroyed at death, ceasing to exist.

From

http://www.jewfaq.org/olamhaba.htm

John 8:32
May 20th 2014, 07:22 PM
If you believe in eternal separation from God in the LOF, then obviously there is some sort of confusion. Life in the LOF is also eternal, right?

That's what I am trying to get clear, see the subject line.

I believe in eternal death as the reward of the wicked.

LandShark
May 20th 2014, 07:35 PM
That's just it. You do not already have eternal life. It is in your future.

I am not picking, just sharing a thought to consider. The word "eternal" declares the word "future" meaningless. Eternal is by definition outside of time, time is no longer a factor when one is eternal. If we are given eternal life than I suggest we have it now and don't appreciate it at this time in any meaningful way simply because we can't see it and understand it while trapped in bodies constrained by time.

ProDeo
May 20th 2014, 07:45 PM
I believe in eternal death as the reward of the wicked.

The question is if the first century Jews to whom it was addressed also believed that.

ProDeo
May 20th 2014, 08:22 PM
YOu have a point, it may be different.

Did you consider that Jesus blew their minds apart with some brand new information?
I am inclined to believe Jesus adapted to the common and current understanding of eternal life. Whatever that was.

Consider that there was no concept of hell (as mainstream Christianity teaches) in the OT, it only speaks of the grave. Although (as others rightly pointed out) there were signs of resurrection and a first sign of eternal punishment in afterlife (Dan 12:2) which is much softer (YMMV) than the NT but other than that no clear concept of eternal life.

Instead Dan 12:2 only makes eternal life more complicated;

And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Meaning, eternal life is for everyone.

So why would our Lord promise something (eternal life) with a condition while eternal life (per Dan 12:2) comes without a condition?

It doesn't make sense. Unless our Lord was correcting something false that slipped in during the absence of 450 years prophets.

LandShark
May 20th 2014, 08:29 PM
The question is if the first century Jews to whom it was addressed also believed that.

I think Fenris (Fenris???? :D ) already made a good point in referencing Matthew. It was said the Pharisees believed in a resurrection and the Sadducees did not.

Aijalon
May 20th 2014, 09:53 PM
I am inclined to believe Jesus adapted to the common and current understanding of eternal life. Whatever that was.

Or this:


our Lord was correcting something false that slipped in during the absence of 450 years prophets.

The first is way off. Jesus may have used things they were familiar with (like money and marriage and land ownership) but he used those things in parable to get them to think in a new ways. His actual teachings were certainly the CORRECTING kind. Why else would he teach but to correct bad thinking?

there are two eternal states, one is life, one is contempt. Why would Jesus speak of both of these two states as one term? That makes no sense.

Or is this you leading us to a conclusion that you have made, what is your conclusion, are you truly puzzled here, because I don't see any reason for you to be!

ContractKeeper
May 21st 2014, 03:59 AM
I am eagerly awaiting Fenris's second reply here on the thread, and hope he may comment on what I shared below too...

I would like to share that for me trying to understand the OT concept of eternity in western thinking is like trying to see what is on the other side of a distant horizon.
You just cannot see what is over that horizon.

Hebrew words for Eternity:
Olam,
Tikkun Olam.
I am no scholar, but for me: both of those Hebrew terms seem to indicate: being Renewed or Restored.

Here is a link that might help:
http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/27_eternity.html




God bless and have mercy on us.

ProDeo
May 21st 2014, 06:28 AM
I find this extremely interesting.

From

http://www.jewfaq.org/olamhaba.htm

Traditional Judaism firmly believes that death is not the end of human existence. However, because Judaism is primarily focused on life here and now rather than on the afterlife, Judaism does not have much dogma about the afterlife, and leaves a great deal of room for personal opinion. It is possible for an Orthodox Jew to believe that the souls of the righteous dead go to a place similar to the Christian heaven, or that they are reincarnated through many lifetimes, or that they simply wait until the coming of the messiah, when they will be resurrected. Likewise, Orthodox Jews can believe that the souls of the wicked are tormented by demons of their own creation, or that wicked souls are simply destroyed at death, ceasing to exist.

Interesting Mike.

The red reminds me of the following conversation;

Mark 8:27-30 - And Jesus went on with his disciples to the villages of Caesarea Philippi. And on the way he asked his disciples, “Who do people say that I am?”

28 And they told him, “John the Baptist; and others say, Elijah; and others, one of the prophets.”

29 And he asked them, “But who do you say that I am?” Peter answered him, “You are the Christ.”

30 And he strictly charged them to tell no one about him.

-------------

Based on verse 28 one may conclude first century Jews believed in reincarnation. So that would be one false pagan influence that slipped into Judaism which our Lord faced.

ContractKeeper
May 21st 2014, 06:51 AM
Interesting Mike.

The red reminds me of the following conversation;

Mark 8:27-30 - And Jesus went on with his disciples to the villages of Caesarea Philippi. And on the way he asked his disciples, “Who do people say that I am?”

28 And they told him, “John the Baptist; and others say, Elijah; and others, one of the prophets.”

29 And he asked them, “But who do you say that I am?” Peter answered him, “You are the Christ.”

30 And he strictly charged them to tell no one about him.

-------------

Based on verse 28 one may conclude first century Jews believed in reincarnation. So that would be one false pagan influence that slipped into Judaism which our Lord faced.

Hi ProDeo,
Due to Hellenistic influences in post captivity Israel, at least one sect of Hebrews that remained viable well through 1st century Israel did believe that...

But we who diligently study the biblical text and pay no heed to Greek/Hellenistic Philosophy, we know better, right ?
Because:
...Hebrews 9:27
It is pointed to man 'once' to die. (once).
...Ecclesiastes 12:7
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. (our spirit returns to God)
...Genesis 2:7
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life (Spirit); and man became a living soul.

PS: Stopping the effect that follows the cause, right ?



God bless and have mercy on us.

petrobb
May 21st 2014, 09:34 AM
The Pharisees believed in and taught a Jewish concept of eternal life. They believed in an afterlife. We may gather something of what they believed from the story of the rich man and Lazarus.

But Jesus introduced a whole new concept.

He spoke both of HAVING eternal life and INHERITING eternal life.

The first concept comes mainly in John's writings. There it was talking of a heavenly quality of life which is enjoyed at the present time. He who has the Son, has life. He who does not have the Son does not have life. When Jesus Christ comes into our live we receive and enjoy eternal life. whilst that does indicate endless life it conveys far more than that. It is a divine quality of life. 'I have come that you might have life, and that you might have it more abundantly (John 10.10).

But in the future those who enjoy eternal life now will also inherit eternal life. The will enter into eternity future where they will enjoy the same heavenly quality of life but to an enhanced degree.

When Jesus makes His final decisions at the last judgment as seen for example in Matt 25 (nowhere is it said to be the judgment of the living nations) and Rev 20 (both the same judgment) all men (all nations) will either inherit eternal life or eternal punishment. There is nothing beyond apart from that. Those who have shown by their lives that they were true believers will inherit eternal life in its fullest sense and will live for ever with God. Those who have demonstrated by their lives that they were not true believers will go into everlasting punishment.

mikebr
May 21st 2014, 02:19 PM
The Pharisees believed in and taught a Jewish concept of eternal life. They believed in an afterlife. We may gather something of what they believed from the story of the rich man and Lazarus.

But Jesus introduced a whole new concept.

He spoke both of HAVING eternal life and INHERITING eternal life.

The first concept comes mainly in John's writings. There it was talking of a heavenly quality of life which is enjoyed at the present time. He who has the Son, has life. He who does not have the Son does not have life. When Jesus Christ comes into our live we receive and enjoy eternal life. whilst that does indicate endless life it conveys far more than that. It is a divine quality of life. 'I have come that you might have life, and that you might have it more abundantly (John 10.10).

But in the future those who enjoy eternal life now will also inherit eternal life. The will enter into eternity future where they will enjoy the same heavenly quality of life but to an enhanced degree.

When Jesus makes His final decisions at the last judgment as seen for example in Matt 25 (nowhere is it said to be the judgment of the living nations) and Rev 20 (both the same judgment) all men (all nations) will either inherit eternal life or eternal punishment. There is nothing beyond apart from that. Those who have shown by their lives that they were true believers will inherit eternal life in its fullest sense and will live for ever with God. Those who have demonstrated by their lives that they were not true believers will go into everlasting punishment.

But if Eternal is a quality, this simply means that God will reward and God will punish with only a reward and punishment that He could bestow. It says nothing of lasting forever. Again the word is kolasis which simply means to prune. A God type pruning.

RCJones
May 21st 2014, 03:14 PM
Eternal Life is a NT concept.

I wonder how the Jews in Jesus time understood it.

It could be different the way I (we) understand it today.

I mean, we also believe Scripture teaches the immortal soul, meaning everyone already has Eternal Life.

So why does Jesus speak of Eternal Life while He essentially means the place and quality of Eternal Life?

Puzzled.....

The OT seems vague on eternal life, but there are instances when it says, "and he was gathered to his people", I could be very wrong but I see this as the soul never dying and he was literally gathered to his people somewhere. Then there is the word "Sheol", God sent people there.

Ceegen
May 21st 2014, 04:08 PM
I am not picking, just sharing a thought to consider. The word "eternal" declares the word "future" meaningless. Eternal is by definition outside of time, time is no longer a factor when one is eternal. If we are given eternal life than I suggest we have it now and don't appreciate it at this time in any meaningful way simply because we can't see it and understand it while trapped in bodies constrained by time.

Eternal life is not now, but in the future. God is the only one who has no beginning.

As like in geometry, we're like a ray and God is like a line. Rays have starting points, but lines do not. Rays go to infinity in one direction, and a line is infinity in both directions.

petrobb
May 21st 2014, 04:10 PM
But if Eternal is a quality, this simply means that God will reward and God will punish with only a reward and punishment that He could bestow. It says nothing of lasting forever. Again the word is kolasis which simply means to prune. A God type pruning.

well strictly speaking the greek word for eternal does not necessarily signify lasting forever. we could translate accurately as 'the life of the age to come' something which the Christian receives when He receives Christ. but because the age to come is eternal we can translate as eternal. but it is the heavenly nature of the life that is being emphasised. yes your are right. it is only something God can bestow.

kolasis means punishment and regularly with aionios eternal punishment. it is used in such a way in the testament of Reuben, the testament of Asher, Celsus, 2 Clement, the martyrdom of polycarp. see Arndt and Gingrich's lexicon

petrobb
May 21st 2014, 04:15 PM
The OT seems vague on eternal life, but there are instances when it says, "and he was gathered to his people", I could be very wrong but I see this as the soul never dying and he was literally gathered to his people somewhere. Then there is the word "Sheol", God sent people there.

Daniel 12.2 does of course refer to eternal (everlasting) life for those who are wise and lead many to righteousness

petrobb
May 21st 2014, 04:18 PM
Eternal life is not now, but in the future. God is the only one who has no beginning.

As like in geometry, we're like a ray and God is like a line. Rays have starting points, but lines do not. Rays go to infinity in one direction, and a line is infinity in both directions.

but john wrote to Christians telling them that they could know that they HAVE eternal life in the present (1 John 5.13).

Bandit
May 21st 2014, 09:42 PM
It isn't, although it isn't explicitly spelled out anywhere in the OT. The first century Pharisees definitely believed in an afterlife, as opposed to the Saducees, who did not (see Matthew 22:23).

I will try to peruse the Talmud for any first-century beliefs on the subject, I have some idea where I want to look.

Hey Fenris, long time no see. (Yea, I don't have the time I used to... but somehow it is still your fault.) Anyway, also bring up what Job said when he said,
"I know my Redeemer lives, and He shall stand at last on the earth, and after my skin is destroyed, in my flesh I shall see God."

RCJones
May 21st 2014, 11:29 PM
Daniel 12.2 does of course refer to eternal (everlasting) life for those who are wise and lead many to righteousness

Thanks, that's a good verse. They believe in resurrection for sure.

RCJones
May 21st 2014, 11:32 PM
Eternal life is not now, but in the future. God is the only one who has no beginning.

As like in geometry, we're like a ray and God is like a line. Rays have starting points, but lines do not. Rays go to infinity in one direction, and a line is infinity in both directions.

In a Chritian's life eternal life means there is a starting point and it moves forward from there, and that start pointing is when Christ made us alive in Him.

Ceegen
May 22nd 2014, 04:57 AM
but john wrote to Christians telling them that they could know that they HAVE eternal life in the present (1 John 5.13).

Right, but it doesn't start until we're born again, and being born again means we must first die. 1st Corinthians ch15 v36-50 for reference. While here though, we can say that we are saved, knowing our faith guarantees that upon death our sins are blotted out at the judgment.

"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:" - Hebrews 9:27.


In a Chritian's life eternal life means there is a starting point and it moves forward from there, and that start pointing is when Christ made us alive in Him.

We only have the seed of faith while in the flesh, and afterwards (upon physical death) the manifestation of incorruption in a spiritual body.

petrobb
May 22nd 2014, 11:16 AM
Right, but it doesn't start until we're born again, and being born again means we must first die. 1st Corinthians ch15 v36-50 for reference. While here though, we can say that we are saved, knowing our faith guarantees that upon death our sins are blotted out at the judgment.

"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:" - Hebrews 9:27.





but those who are Christians are already 'born again' (John 1.12-13). They have been born of the Spirit and have received eternal life. 'He who has the Son has life -- these things are written so that you may know that YOU HAVE (not will have) eternal life.' (1 John 5.12-13). 'You have been born again, not of corruptible seed but of incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides for ever' (1 Peter 1.23)

Each true Christian has received eternal life, having received the life of Christ. 'whoever hears my word and believes Him Who sent me HAS eternal life (John 5.24). He sent His only begotten Son into the world so that we may live through Him,' (1 John 4.9)

see also john 11.25.

Fenris
May 22nd 2014, 11:42 AM
Hey Fenris, long time no see. (Yea, I don't have the time I used to... but somehow it is still your fault.)
:P


Anyway, also bring up what Job said when he said,
"I know my Redeemer lives, and He shall stand at last on the earth, and after my skin is destroyed, in my flesh I shall see God."
Well that's a hard verse to translate. In any case I don't deny that Judaism believes in an afterlife. But we only see hints to it and not an explicit statement because as noted before, in Judaism what we do in this world is considered of paramount importance. Perhaps coming from Egypt where the whole society was based on the afterlife (what are the pyramids but giant monuments to the dead?) they needed a clean break from that sort of thinking.