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jordan waters
May 25th 2014, 05:47 PM
I can hear the song now... Fix your eyes on…yourself?

“…the Bible is not first a recipe book for Christian living, but a revelation book of Jesus who is the answer to our unchristian living.”

“While attacks on morality will always come from outside the church, attacks on grace will always come from inside the church because somewhere along the way we’ve come to believe that this whole thing is about behavioral modification and personal moral improvement. We’ve concluded that grace just doesn’t possess the teeth to scare us into changing. As a result we get a steady diet of 'do more, try harder' sermons; we get a 'to do list' version of Christianity that causes us to believe the focus of the Christian faith is the life of the Christian. So we end up hearing more about 'Christian living' than the Christ.

…if we’re not careful we can give people the impression that Christianity is first and foremost about the sacrifice we make for Jesus rather than the sacrifice Jesus made for us; our performance for him rather than his performance for us; our obedience for him rather than his obedience for us. The hub of Christianity is not 'do something for Jesus.' The hub of Christianity is 'Jesus has done everything for you.' I fear that too many people, both inside and outside the church, have heard this plea for intensified devotion and concluded that the focus of the Christian faith is our love for God instead of God’s love for us.

Sadly, too many churches have helped to perpetuate the impression that Christianity is primarily concerned with legislating morality. Believe it or not, Christianity is not about good people getting better. If anything, it is good news for bad people coping with their failure to be good.

…the Bible is not a record of the blessed good, but rather the blessed bad. The Bible is not a witness to the best people making it up to God; it’s a witness to God making it down to the worst people. The Bible is one long story of God meeting our rebellion with his rescue; our sin with his salvation; our failure with his favor; our guilt with his grace; our badness with his goodness.”

- See more at: http://jonathanmerritt.religionnews.com/2013/10/02/tullian-tchividjian/#sthash.hdMv5Oqy.dliYSvUS.dpuf

awestruckchild
Jun 6th 2014, 02:27 PM
Wow. That's Billy Graham's grandson!
I read the whole article. Thanks for it! I hear what he's saying.
But then, I am sighing too, because men seem to have made even GRACE into legalism so that now, it has become cries of legalism to FOLLOW that Grace and where it leads you...

Scooby_Snacks
Jun 8th 2014, 08:38 AM
I enjoy reading Tullian has to say. I found something a couple years ago from him, and glad you posted this article:

I am not seeing where he made GRACE into Legalism.
The problem he illustrates is legit. His manner of addressing it, humble.

This snippet was a nice way to start my day:

If this sounds like a depressing sentiment, it isn’t meant to be one. Quite the opposite. If I am grateful for anything about these past 15 years, it’s for the way God has wrecked my idealism about myself and the world and replaced it with a realism about the extent of His grace and love, which is much bigger than I had ever imagined.
Indeed, the smaller you get—the smaller life makes you—the easier it is to see the grandeur of grace.
While I am far more incapable than I may have initially thought, God is infinitely more capable than I ever hoped. - See more at: http://jonathanmerritt.religionnews.com/2013/10/02/tullian-tchividjian/#sthash.hdMv5Oqy.fDNecKEh.dpuf

Scooby_Snacks
Jun 9th 2014, 01:02 AM
I enjoy reading Tullian has to say. I found something a couple years ago from him, and glad you posted this article:

I am not seeing where he made GRACE into Legalism.
The problem he illustrates is legit. His manner of addressing it, humble.

This snippet was a nice way to start my day:

If this sounds like a depressing sentiment, it isn’t meant to be one. Quite the opposite. If I am grateful for anything about these past 15 years, it’s for the way God has wrecked my idealism about myself and the world and replaced it with a realism about the extent of His grace and love, which is much bigger than I had ever imagined.
Indeed, the smaller you get—the smaller life makes you—the easier it is to see the grandeur of grace.
While I am far more incapable than I may have initially thought, God is infinitely more capable than I ever hoped. - See more at: http://jonathanmerritt.religionnews.com/2013/10/02/tullian-tchividjian/#sthash.hdMv5Oqy.fDNecKEh.dpuf

Just a share from my today because I started it out right!

God took utter failure of my performance (in others eyes that caused me to fret...and He knew I did fret) and brought about His Will today that cast His light upon it's brokenness.

It is not easy to live up to other peoples expectations. Not everyone "wants" the same things.

But The Lord rewards those who seek Him. Being honest matters. Even when fumbling, he brings joy from ashes.

Being honest, does not always equate to getting a job done to the world.

God takes what the world thinks about performance, to reveal His glory through broken vessels....

awestruckchild
Jun 11th 2014, 08:10 PM
Hi scoob,
No, I wasn't saying that THIS author made grace into legalism.
I was saying that grace has become a form of legalism in that if one seeks a closer walk and a better hearing and understanding of the Holy Spirit, it has somehow become a trying to be saved by works.

Satan doesn't only work by convincing us we are humble when we are not.
He also tries to convince us that to aspire to follow the example set by the apostles and giving up of the world and continual walking and praying in the spirit is arrogance on our part and that we are sinners who can admire their close walk with the Spirit but can never do likewise.
In this way, we are hindered from growing and are browbeaten into a defeatist attitude that says not just that sin is crouching at our door but that we can never totally overcome it through the Precious Blood and the Spirit. And this even in SPITE of the verse: walk in the SPirit so you will not sin.

In this way, sin becomes: not our fault, we are helpless against it.
To strive to walk in the Spirit so we will not sin or to encourage others to it, has become arrogance and arrogance that says the opposite has become humility.

In this way, light is called darkness and darkness is called light.

We should instead begin with the thought: with God, all things are possible. :)

Scooby_Snacks
Jun 12th 2014, 01:44 AM
Hi scoob,
No, I wasn't saying that THIS author made grace into legalism.

Okay, well I think he addressed some really important points, and took it making you "SIGH" to mean you disagreed with him.


I was saying that grace has become a form of legalism in that if one seeks a closer walk and a better hearing and understanding of the Holy Spirit, it has somehow become a trying to be saved by works.

Not sure where you received your opinion from?
I have never heard anyone say that a person is trying to be saved by works if they seek a closer walk with The Lord or better hearing of The Holy Spirit.

I believe that His children desire both. I could say here on this forum that the consensus seem to show this desire overall. We could of course, take a poll…

To be frank, it seems as if you have taken opportunity to discuss things you are upset about, are personal to you-- but they do connect to the article in an opposing way, sortof.

So just to put it out there: Not everyone will agree that a person can be on this earth and never sin once born again. It may be because like me, I have never seen this happen, a born again person who never sins.

If anyone walks in His perfection (at any point) it will show.
If anyone does not (at any point) it will show.

I have seen His perfection through others, and also their very human tendency to sin.
But never a continuous long haul of any person walking in perfection without sin. Not here, not anywhere.
The most humble people I know are just that, humble--
So there must be some reason for this scripture: Whomever is forgiven much, loves much.

2 Corinthians 3 is a wonderful read, the context of the letter that kills...



Satan doesn't only work by convincing us we are humble when we are not.
He also tries to convince us that to aspire to follow the example set by the apostles and giving up of the world and continual walking and praying in the spirit is arrogance on our part and that we are sinners who can admire their close walk with the Spirit but can never do likewise.


You give Satan a lot of credit…although he does work through people..
But who needs Satan or people to deceive when we are full of our own ideas and goals?
If I think I am being humble I better brace myself.
And I don’t need outside deception to deny my own problems!

I think the point of this thread was that fixing our eyes upon ourselves and our performance is a big problem.
It makes outward change more important than inward transformation that is directly from God Himself in His rest.

That is a deception, isn't it? You...Clean the outside of the cup?

If there is anything I can pat myself on the back about (Or as it states in 2 Corinthians 3- commend myself) then it isn't really about God anymore, it is about me and what I have done, what I know, instead of What He has done, and who He is…



In this way, we are hindered from growing and are browbeaten into a defeatist attitude that says not just that sin is crouching at our door but that we can never totally overcome it through the Precious Blood and the Spirit.

This is rather a monolog I keep hearing. That browbeaten and defeatist attitudes are the norm, that people (even those here on this forum?) obviously must not be growing because they just will not agree with some peoples teachings…in fact if they disagree they are exactly what we say they are…common’ now.
Can spot that a mile away….

And this even in SPITE of the verse: walk in the SPirit so
you will not sin

How well do you know the context of this chapter? And when have you heard anyone disagree that walking in the spirit is the goal?

Galatians 5:16
But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.

There is more under the umbrella of some teachings than this one verse, although it is used to get across a point, isn't it?



In this way, sin becomes: not our fault, we are helpless against it.

Who has ever said sin was not their fault, that they are not responsible?



To strive to walk in the Spirit so we will not sin or to encourage others to it, has become arrogance and arrogance that says the opposite has become humility.

Striving to walk in the spirit is not the same as being arrogant. Arrogance looks down, humility looks up.
I certainly know when I am being encouraged rather than…something else.

But to strive to walk in the Spirit so you will not sin--is that making (not sinning) the main idea?
Or is being lead by Him, having relationship with God, learning of Him and His children the main idea, (LOVE) and dealing with sin if it happens by confessing it and being healed…?




In this way, light is called darkness and darkness is called light.

You have decided, already, that those who disagree with certain teachings are walking in darkness, I guess?

Aviyah
Jun 12th 2014, 02:01 AM
We’ve concluded that grace just doesn’t possess the teeth to scare us into changing.

So true, and so sad :( those who live under the law are under a curse.

Scooby_Snacks
Jun 12th 2014, 02:07 AM
So true, and so sad :( those who live under the law are under a curse.

And I live among them...

awestruckchild
Jun 12th 2014, 04:11 AM
Okay, well I think he addressed some really important points, and took it making you "SIGH" to mean you disagreed with him.


Not sure where you received your opinion from?
I have never heard anyone say that a person is trying to be saved by works if they seek a closer walk with The Lord or better hearing of The Holy Spirit.

I believe that His children desire both. I could say here on this forum that the consensus seem to show this desire overall. We could of course, take a poll…

To be frank, it seems as if you have taken opportunity to discuss things you are upset about, are personal to you-- but they do connect to the article in an opposing way, sortof.

So just to put it out there: Not everyone will agree that a person can be on this earth and never sin once born again. It may be because like me, I have never seen this happen, a born again person who never sins.

If anyone walks in His perfection (at any point) it will show.
If anyone does not (at any point) it will show.

I have seen His perfection through others, and also their very human tendency to sin.
But never a continuous long haul of any person walking in perfection without sin. Not here, not anywhere.
The most humble people I know are just that, humble--
So there must be some reason for this scripture: Whomever is forgiven much, loves much.

2 Corinthians 3 is a wonderful read, the context of the letter that kills...




You give Satan a lot of credit…although he does work through people..
But who needs Satan or people to deceive when we are full of our own ideas and goals?
If I think I am being humble I better brace myself.
And I don’t need outside deception to deny my own problems!

I think the point of this thread was that fixing our eyes upon ourselves and our performance is a big problem.
It makes outward change more important than inward transformation that is directly from God Himself in His rest.

That is a deception, isn't it? You...Clean the outside of the cup?

If there is anything I can pat myself on the back about (Or as it states in 2 Corinthians 3- commend myself) then it isn't really about God anymore, it is about me and what I have done, what I know, instead of What He has done, and who He is…



This is rather a monolog I keep hearing. That browbeaten and defeatist attitudes are the norm, that people (even those here on this forum?) obviously must not be growing because they just will not agree with some peoples teachings…in fact if they disagree they are exactly what we say they are…common’ now.
Can spot that a mile away….


How well do you know the context of this chapter? And when have you heard anyone disagree that walking in the spirit is the goal?

Galatians 5:16
But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.

There is more under the umbrella of some teachings than this one verse, although it is used to get across a point, isn't it?



Who has ever said sin was not their fault, that they are not responsible?



Striving to walk in the spirit is not the same as being arrogant. Arrogance looks down, humility looks up.
I certainly know when I am being encouraged rather than…something else.

But to strive to walk in the Spirit so you will not sin--is that making (not sinning) the main idea?
Or is being lead by Him, having relationship with God, learning of Him and His children the main idea, (LOVE) and dealing with sin if it happens by confessing it and being healed…?




You have decided, already, that those who disagree with certain teachings are walking in darkness, I guess?

Perfectly understandable. You saw the word "sigh" and not what I had written before it. :)

I received my opinion from listening to many discussions wherein an encouragement and exhortation to walk in the Spirit so we do not sin is met with cries of arrogance.

If you haven't heard any of these discussions then we just do not read the same threads.

To be frank, I have taken the "opportunity" to discuss the taking of the truth in this mans article to an extreme that soothes itching ears. It wasn't in opposition to his article. It was the observation that we are capable of taking any truth and then turning it into a legalistic bent in order to make God say what we want Him to say rather than what He HAS actually said. Maybe you have not seen that propensity in yourself and it is not something you have to be wary of, but I have to be VERY wary of it.

You are not reading what I wrote but are instead projecting what someone else has said, elsewhere, onto me, which makes it look like you are the one taking opportunity to "discuss things you are upset about or are personal to you." I did not say it was possible to not ever sin once we are born again with the Spirit of God. I would think it would be highly improbable that it has ever happened because it is the nature of newborn babies to NOT be born and immediately hit the ground running swiftly and never falling down. But that does not mean God is a liar. It just means babies are awkward and fall a lot before they learn to run.

The word of God still remains. Walk in the Spirit so you will not sin. I do not have the bravery to declare it impossible if He has said it. I, like you, have not seen it, but this does not make me call God a liar just because I never have.

I guess I do give satan a lot of credit. I have seen him work. It is not out in the open. It is sneaky. He twists the words of God. I am prone to fall for it. He has convinced me of many things that were not true with his accusations and has kept me from untold blessings. But I am onto him now.

Yes. I completely got what the intent of the thread and the article was about. In a strange twist, I have not advocated fixing my eyes on myself at all, but on the word of God - Walk in the Spirit so you will not sin. It is fixing ones eyes on oneself though (and on others in comparison), to say:Walk in the Spirit so you will not sin, BUT, realize from the get go that it is impossible, no matter what God has said, because a focus on self and other humans shows you that it cannot possibly ever work.

I do not understand how you derive from:walk in the Spirit so you will not not sin - that one is saying to clean the outside of their cup. I can't even comment on it because I don't understand how you made the leap to that.

Also, how one could commend themselves or pat themselves on the back by striving to live out the verse, is a leap I don't understand and cannot comment on either. I just can't comprehend where you have taken it.

The browbeaten and defeatist attitude comes from refusing to take God at His word and to instead insist on a different starting point than He has given us.

The next paragraph, I'm not even going to address. Whatever your beef is with someone else is something you have to work out apart from me. I never said you were not "growing." I wasn't even talking about you. I was talking about walking in the Spirit so we won't sin. Period.

I don't know about the umbrella you are talking about. It seems you are not speaking plainly about what I posted. I think the verse is used by God to get the point across that if we walk in the Spirit we will not sin. I don't know what other point you are talking about. Maybe because you said it, but then didn't say what the elusive point actually WAS that you are alluding to.

I agree that arrogance looks down and humility looks up.
Arrogance looks at itself and others and so declares what God has said to be wrong or impossible.
Humility says, I don't know how He will accomplish it, but He has said it and I believe Him because with God, all things are possible.

I believe the verse is truth regardless of what point God is making with it. It is apparently important to Him so it is important to me.

I have decided that those who disagree with the word of God are walking in darkness. Not a "certain teaching" but GOD'S teaching. If God says: walk in the Spirit so you will not sin, and someone says, but isn't that making the point to not sin rather than x, y, and z, and besides, it is impossible because I have never seen it with my eyes, then yes, I think they are walking in darkness. But God reveals and He is patient and He sees our hearts, and love covers a multitude of sins.

By the way, walking in the Spirit IS being led by Him and learning of Him and having a relationship with Him and confessing sin if it happens.

And at least you said: IF it happens. :) So I think you DO start with the belief that with God all things are possible. I just think you are stuck somewhere where you are projecting something onto me that I have not said. G'night scooby dooby doo. Midnight here.

edit to add: scoob, if you get a chance, can you go to my Romans thread and tell me your thoughts on the verses I reference there? I have always sort of just scratched my head over them and can't comprehend what they mean and would like your thoughts on them if you get the time. (They are a big mystery to me...)

Rockrz
Jun 12th 2014, 04:24 AM
Christianity is not about good people getting better.

So, how do you explain away what Jesus said in John 15 concerning the Father purging us so we bare more fruit and the Father is glorified when we bare much fruit?

Was Jesus misinformed by the Father, or was Jesus only speaking to the Jews and this is not applicable to Christians today as I've heard some "extreme grace" teachers teach.



Walk in the Spirit so you will not sin.

Exactly. Grace is actually God's presence so walking in the Spirit IS walking in Christ and allowing Him to walk in you at the same time. Much of the teaching of the "gospel of grace" is nothing more than taking a ride to excuseville so people can feel good about themselves and squelch the Holy Spirit's voice telling them they'd better quit being carnal minded because that IS death (separation from God... as in a form of Godliness but denying the power of God Who is the Holy Ghost!)

awestruckchild
Jun 12th 2014, 01:38 PM
Good morning Rockrz,

Be careful not to get caught up in picking a side on this. Men seem to want to demand that you do so and they will sometimes try to box you in to one extreme or the other.

Without Grace, there is only pride of life for us.

But here's the thing. Some men become stuck in one extreme or the other, and they get stuck SO bad and are SO grateful to the Exquisite Grace that did not leave them that way, that they then take the other extreme.

Our problems come here from insisting on not having the balance right.

It is true that without Grace, you and I would still be dead.
It is also true that He must increase and we must decrease.
This second part of the equation is difficult. It is the picking up the cross and following. It is the denying of self, and self is a shreiking little tyrant, so we have difficulties.

It doesn't work to just say that Grace does not expect us to do what Grace has told us to do.
There is unspeakable Grace and if we don't forget it, we walk humbly before God.
There is also obedience - and our napoleonic, control freak self has problems with it.

When you read an article like the one the OP link took us to, you see a man talking about Grace and telling the truth. No article can tell the entire truth - ALL truth - in one breath.
It is okay to talk about Grace and how we would still be dead without it and the problems that we have if we forget about it and get in the rut of pride. No man can cover all of the truth in one article.

Scooby_Snacks
Jun 12th 2014, 02:04 PM
Perfectly understandable. You saw the word "sigh" and not what I had written before it. :)

Actually I read what you wrote carefully.
I think you may find many who disagree with the article even if you do not.



I received my opinion from listening to many discussions wherein an encouragement and exhortation to walk in the Spirit so we do not sin is met with cries of arrogance.

Right. I addressed this.



If you haven't heard any of these discussions then we just do not read the same threads.

I have posted in them and read them.


To be frank, I have taken the "opportunity" to discuss the taking of the truth in this mans article to an extreme that soothes itching ears. It wasn't in opposition to his article. It was the observation that we are capable of taking any truth and then turning it into a legalistic bent in order to make God say what we want Him to say rather than what He HAS actually said. Maybe you have not seen that propensity in yourself and it is not something you have to be wary of, but I have to be VERY wary of it.


Anyone can take anything to the extreme. The love of division is more than the love of unity. Anyone can take something out of context---God's Word or other peoples words...Reasoning together allows scripture to be examined and other views to come into play from people who also claim to walk in the spirit.
Humility is admitting when one is wrong or does not know everything.
Without that interchange, conversation is a mute point.


You are not reading what I wrote but are instead projecting what someone else has said, elsewhere, onto me, which makes it look like you are the one taking opportunity to "discuss things you are upset about or are personal to you."
Yes, it is true, by bringing up that if a person walks in the spirit they will not sin is like an open door to a monolog that I have noticed usually follows it.
I really do believe your intentions are good. But that does not mean I do not see.

You don't have to admit what I pointed out because you wrote a page about it.
I am not upset, my observation was clear. I was asking you to clarify your charges against "people in general".

By saying "Walk in the spirit so you will not sin" what everyone already knows and strives for, to me is like saying "You all are not doing this you must be taught" and it gets old. It is not spiritual at all.

You are correct, Galatians 5:16 does not say we will walk in sinless perfection.


I did not say it was possible to not ever sin once we are born again with the Spirit of God. I would think it would be highly improbable that it has ever happened because it is the nature of newborn babies to NOT be born and immediately hit the ground running swiftly and never falling down. But that does not mean God is a liar. It just means babies are awkward and fall a lot before they learn to run.

When did sin stop being sin and become awkwardness? I will swap the table on you. Is awkwardness excused or is missing the mark, (sin) missing the mark? Is there partial sanctification? Do we start out being sanctified and then somehow arrive while still on this earth?

I just don't understand the complication of simple.


The word of God still remains. Walk in the Spirit so you will not sin.

What scripture are you quoting awe?


I do not have the bravery to declare it impossible if He has said it. I, like you, have not seen it, but this does not make me call God a liar just because I never have.


I didn't call God a liar either. The scripture I quoted does not say a person will never sin again.
God's Word is pure, but not all doctrine credits God's Word.


I guess I do give satan a lot of credit. I have seen him work. It is not out in the open. It is sneaky. He twists the words of God. I am prone to fall for it. He has convinced me of many things that were not true with his accusations and has kept me from untold blessings. But I am onto him now.

Ah yes, the twisting of God's Word. The twisting of peoples words. The strife of tongues...oh wait, that is not Satan, that is people themselves.
I like to think of it this way. If God's Word is read in context, there would be a whole lot less questioning of doctrine.


Yes. I completely got what the intent of the thread and the article was about. In a strange twist, I have not advocated fixing my eyes on myself at all, but on the word of God - Walk in the Spirit so you will not sin.


As many Christians do, but falter somehow-- Those who know they are justified, walk in God's love and not fear of His Wrath or in order to gain for themselves have a better shot, IMO.



It is fixing ones eyes on oneself though (and on others in comparison), to say:Walk in the Spirit so you will not sin, BUT, realize from the get go that it is impossible, no matter what God has said, because a focus on self and other humans shows you that it cannot possibly ever work.

Perhaps they just lack the faith needed to do it right.




I do not understand how you derive from:walk in the Spirit so you will not not sin - that one is saying to clean the outside of their cup. I can't even comment on it because I don't understand how you made the leap to that.

I am discussing the articles contents regarding performance as a problem.


Also, how one could commend themselves or pat themselves on the back by striving to live out the verse, is a leap I don't understand and cannot comment on either. I just can't comprehend where you have taken it.

The commendation comes from giving oneself credit for walking so well.
This can be observed in the manner that attitude rears it's head. It is devoid of love. It is selfish.


The browbeaten and defeatist attitude comes from refusing to take God at His word and to instead insist on a different starting point than He has given us.

Right. You believe there are people here who fall into this category. I am saying this is untrue, unless proof is given.


The next paragraph, I'm not even going to address. Whatever your beef is with someone else is something you have to work out apart from me. I never said you were not "growing." I wasn't even talking about you. I was talking about walking in the Spirit so we won't sin. Period.

You stated "WE". Does that not include everyone? This is an opinion you hold.
I say it may be true for you, but proof is lacking for others.



Satan doesn't only work by convincing us we are humble when we are not.
He also tries to convince us that to aspire to follow the example set by the apostles and giving up of the world and continual walking and praying in the spirit is arrogance on our part and that we are sinners who can admire their close walk with the Spirit but can never do likewise.
In this way, we are hindered from growing and are browbeaten into a defeatist attitude that says not just that sin is crouching at our door but that we can never totally overcome it through the Precious Blood and the Spirit. And this even in SPITE of the verse: walk in the SPirit so you will not sin.

In this way, sin becomes: not our fault, we are helpless against it.
To strive to walk in the Spirit so we will not sin or to encourage others to it, has become arrogance and arrogance that says the opposite has become humility.

In this way, light is called darkness and darkness is called light.

Now do you see why I addressed this?


I don't know about the umbrella you are talking about. It seems you are not speaking plainly about what I posted. I think the verse is used by God to get the point across that if we walk in the Spirit we will not sin. I don't know what other point you are talking about. Maybe because you said it, but then didn't say what the elusive point actually WAS that you are alluding to.

My point is why bring up to walk in the spirit as if people here don't already know?


I agree that arrogance looks down and humility looks up.

Whew...I don't think you are arrogant by the way.


Arrogance looks at itself and others and so declares what God has said to be wrong or impossible.

And no one here has said Galatians 5:16 is untrue.


Humility says, I don't know how He will accomplish it, but He has said it and I believe Him because with God, all things are possible.

There is a vast difference between walking with God in the spirit and having a specific idea about how that is "supposed" to look or sound or be taught to everyone.


I believe the verse is truth regardless of what point God is making with it. It is apparently important to Him so it is important to me.

Okay.


I have decided that those who disagree with the word of God are walking in darkness. Not a "certain teaching" but GOD'S teaching. If God says: walk in the Spirit so you will not sin, and someone says, but isn't that making the point to not sin rather than x, y, and z, and besides, it is impossible because I have never seen it with my eyes, then yes, I think they are walking in darkness. But God reveals and He is patient and He sees our hearts, and love covers a multitude of sins.


Well that pretty much sums up what I stated. If you have exclusive to the "truth" of God's Teaching, so those (now it is me) who give any other insight, or disagree with specific methods of application are in darkness.


By the way, walking in the Spirit IS being led by Him and learning of Him and having a relationship with Him and confessing sin if it happens.


And everyone here knows this.


And at least you said: IF it happens. :) So I think you DO start with the belief that with God all things are possible. I just think you are stuck somewhere where you are projecting something onto me that I have not said.
When those in a church body lay their hands upon a man (or woman) for ordination to ministry, they are putting their seal of approval upon them. They stand behind them.

This I will say. If I do not want to see something, I will put blinders on. If I acknowledge God's Word is true and disagree with the application there of, or a specific doctrine, that does not mean I am blind and others see who I disagree with.



G'night scooby dooby doo. Midnight here.

edit to add: scoob, if you get a chance, can you go to my Romans thread and tell me your thoughts on the verses I reference there? I have always sort of just scratched my head over them and can't comprehend what they mean and would like your thoughts on them if you get the time. (They are a big mystery to me...)

I read your question thread.

Elihu
Jun 12th 2014, 03:00 PM
We should instead begin with the thought: with God, all things are possible. :)


I think it is possible where people are misunderstanding each other in this thread it can be brought to harmony.


Here is my take on this post by awestruckchild


In the levitical Law you brought sin offerings. Easy thing to miss in the how much this cost.

If you were rich you could afford to buy as many goats as you needed, you could even turn it into a public production of how much you could afford. (Isa 1:11-12)

Now still, who of the middle class or the poor could afford two or three goats a day? Soon you would be down to turtle doves and onto flour and the poor house.

And it shall be, when he shall be guilty in one of these things, that he shall confess that he hath sinned in that thing: And he shall bring his trespass offering unto the LORD for his sin which he hath sinned, a female from the flock, a lamb or a kid of the goats, for a sin offering; and the priest shall make an atonement for him concerning his sin. And if he be not able to bring a lamb, then he shall bring for his trespass, which he hath committed, two turtledoves, or two young pigeons, unto the LORD; one for a sin offering, and the other for a burnt offering. (Lev 5:5-7)

Where am I going?

Jesus is our Lamb, His blood is needed for our cleansing.

It is not easy when we don't have to pay for it out of pocket, when it is freely given, to really value the cost of our sin.

You can loosely juxtapose two ways of looking a sin

"I can't help but sin but so don't sweat it thanks to grace, there is lots of blood (or there was enough blood to cover all these sins I can't help when I was cleansed)"

"I really don't want to use any more blood than I need to today, ( or I hope as little as possible blood was needed once you take me Home) please help me Lord"


Regardless of ones views on soteriology, all should be able to agree the mindset that one should at least aim for sinlessness has value.

I think this post was an attempt to express aiming for less than that is not Glorifying God, regardless of how well it is executed.

I don't want to go broke even if it is not possible.

Scooby_Snacks
Jun 12th 2014, 03:07 PM
I think it is possible where people are misunderstanding each other in this thread it can be brought to harmony.


Here is my take on this post by awestruckchild


In the levitical Law you brought sin offerings. Easy thing to miss in the how much this cost.

If you were rich you could afford to buy as many goats as you needed, you could even turn it into a public production of how much you could afford. (Isa 1:11-12)

Now still, who of the middle class or the poor could afford two or three goats a day? Soon you would be down to turtle doves and onto flour and the poor house.

And it shall be, when he shall be guilty in one of these things, that he shall confess that he hath sinned in that thing: And he shall bring his trespass offering unto the LORD for his sin which he hath sinned, a female from the flock, a lamb or a kid of the goats, for a sin offering; and the priest shall make an atonement for him concerning his sin. And if he be not able to bring a lamb, then he shall bring for his trespass, which he hath committed, two turtledoves, or two young pigeons, unto the LORD; one for a sin offering, and the other for a burnt offering. (Lev 5:5-7)

Where am I going?

Jesus is our Lamb, His blood is needed for our cleansing.

It is easy when we don't have to pay for it out of pocket, when it is freely given, to really value the cost of our sin.

You can loosely juxtapose two ways of looking a sin

"I can't help but sin but so don't sweat it thanks to grace, there is lots of blood (or there was enough blood to cover all these sins I can't help when I was cleansed)"

"I really don't want to use any more blood than I need to today, ( or I hope as little as possible blood was needed once you take me Home) please help me Lord"


Regardless of ones views on soteriology, all should be able to agree the mindset that one should at least aim for sinlessness has value.

I think this post was an attempt to express aiming for less than that is not Glorifying God, regardless of how well it is executed.

I don't want to go broke even if it is not possible.

I am already enjoying your posts Elihu.

I believe everyone already understands the price Jesus paid and that sinning is no ones goal, but being transformed into Christ's image is.

That to believe it is anyone's intention to cheapen what Jesus did is to see darkness rather than light.

Hope you get my point too....

Elihu
Jun 12th 2014, 03:19 PM
Hope you get my point too....

I do, that's why I think there is more agreement than it may seem in this thread.

I will say I have and do struggle with justifying sin instead of owning it. Believing I could have avoided it rather than it having been something unavoidable.

That is what I see at the core of this. :)

Scooby_Snacks
Jun 12th 2014, 04:10 PM
I do, that's why I think there is more agreement than it may seem in this thread.

I need more than you saying you understand what I said to continue.

I already understand awestruck's point of view.

:)

Elihu
Jun 12th 2014, 05:15 PM
I need more than you saying you understand what I said to continue.

I already understand awestruck's point of view.

I think people use examples to get their point across.

I could have told a story of how in bible study last week I felt awkward after bringing up the concept of not being helpless to sin. The reaction was not agreement, but looking for excuses.

But this is just personal testimony, it can be taken apart with artful rhetoric and made to say just about anything.


In my last post I instead chose to say how I see it in my own life, I am currently seeking to not justify my own sin anymore and take responsibility.

But again this is only personal testimony that as well could be used against my intention.

Either way these are just two examples of a vehicle to present the same concern we all (here an example within an example of using the word all to only speak of a certain group) share, not cheapening God's grace.


awestruck's style of expressing a concern (grace into legalism) I saw consisted of a bunch of unknown possible someone's following an extreme.


I see you taking them as accusing others rather than sharing a thought though hypothetical example. I am not sure you do completely understand what words and scenarios were hypothetical rather than accusatory.

I would hazard a guess that neither one of you believe a christian would (could?) intentionally set out to promote darkness.



Grace into legalism.


Taking a snippet of your words I believe have one of your main concerns.


But to strive to walk in the Spirit so you will not sin--is that making (not sinning) the main idea?
Or is being lead by Him, having relationship with God, learning of Him and His children the main idea, (LOVE) and dealing with sin if it happens by confessing it and being healed…?

What Law/laws is everyone talking about here? Are we all on the same page for sure? Do we have a harmonic definition for sin to frame the context of the conversation?

What is legalism mean when not used as a pejorative? I submit it is an attempt to follow some system to be righteous rather than following the Son.


If this was the intention of awestruck, to say people should follow Jesus instead of a system built on a created "law of forgiveness", it agrees with the very concern you are expressing.

I see you both stating one should be concerned not to go to the extreme and fall into "legalism", maybe two different kinds but I still don't see much disagreement at the bottom of things. I am not covering all points of the talk, as I don't find agreement with "everything" said.


I respectfully submit one can both believe we are not compelled by an external/internal source to sin and should aim to follow Him moment by moment without regard to external systems.

The more I think about it the more synonymous the two sound.

awestruckchild
Jun 12th 2014, 05:16 PM
Actually I read what you wrote carefully.
I think you may find many who disagree with the article even if you do not.




Right. I addressed this.




I have posted in them and read them.



Anyone can take anything to the extreme. The love of division is more than the love of unity. Anyone can take something out of context---God's Word or other peoples words...Reasoning together allows scripture to be examined and other views to come into play from people who also claim to walk in the spirit.
Humility is admitting when one is wrong or does not know everything.
Without that interchange, conversation is a mute point.


Yes, it is true, by bringing up that if a person walks in the spirit they will not sin is like an open door to a monolog that I have noticed usually follows it.
I really do believe your intentions are good. But that does not mean I do not see.

You don't have to admit what I pointed out because you wrote a page about it.
I am not upset, my observation was clear. I was asking you to clarify your charges against "people in general".

By saying "Walk in the spirit so you will not sin" what everyone already knows and strives for, to me is like saying "You all are not doing this you must be taught" and it gets old. It is not spiritual at all.

You are correct, Galatians 5:16 does not say we will walk in sinless perfection.


When did sin stop being sin and become awkwardness? I will swap the table on you. Is awkwardness excused or is missing the mark, (sin) missing the mark? Is there partial sanctification? Do we start out being sanctified and then somehow arrive while still on this earth?

I just don't understand the complication of simple.



What scripture are you quoting awe?


I didn't call God a liar either. The scripture I quoted does not say a person will never sin again.
God's Word is pure, but not all doctrine credits God's Word.



Ah yes, the twisting of God's Word. The twisting of peoples words. The strife of tongues...oh wait, that is not Satan, that is people themselves.
I like to think of it this way. If God's Word is read in context, there would be a whole lot less questioning of doctrine.



As many Christians do, but falter somehow-- Those who know they are justified, walk in God's love and not fear of His Wrath or in order to gain for themselves have a better shot, IMO.



Perhaps they just lack the faith needed to do it right.





I am discussing the articles contents regarding performance as a problem.



The commendation comes from giving oneself credit for walking so well.
This can be observed in the manner that attitude rears it's head. It is devoid of love. It is selfish.



Right. You believe there are people here who fall into this category. I am saying this is untrue, unless proof is given.


You stated "WE". Does that not include everyone? This is an opinion you hold.
I say it may be true for you, but proof is lacking for others.



Now do you see why I addressed this?



My point is why bring up to walk in the spirit as if people here don't already know?



Whew...I don't think you are arrogant by the way.



And no one here has said Galatians 5:16 is untrue.



There is a vast difference between walking with God in the spirit and having a specific idea about how that is "supposed" to look or sound or be taught to everyone.



Okay.



Well that pretty much sums up what I stated. If you have exclusive to the "truth" of God's Teaching, so those (now it is me) who give any other insight, or disagree with specific methods of application are in darkness.



And everyone here knows this.


When those in a church body lay their hands upon a man (or woman) for ordination to ministry, they are putting their seal of approval upon them. They stand behind them.

This I will say. If I do not want to see something, I will put blinders on. If I acknowledge God's Word is true and disagree with the application there of, or a specific doctrine, that does not mean I am blind and others see who I disagree with.



I read your question thread.


Actually I read what you wrote carefully.
I think you may find many who disagree with the article even if you do not.




Right. I addressed this.




I have posted in them and read them.



Anyone can take anything to the extreme. The love of division is more than the love of unity. Anyone can take something out of context---God's Word or other peoples words...Reasoning together allows scripture to be examined and other views to come into play from people who also claim to walk in the spirit.
Humility is admitting when one is wrong or does not know everything.
Without that interchange, conversation is a mute point.


Yes, it is true, by bringing up that if a person walks in the spirit they will not sin is like an open door to a monolog that I have noticed usually follows it.
I really do believe your intentions are good. But that does not mean I do not see.

You don't have to admit what I pointed out because you wrote a page about it.
I am not upset, my observation was clear. I was asking you to clarify your charges against "people in general".

By saying "Walk in the spirit so you will not sin" what everyone already knows and strives for, to me is like saying "You all are not doing this you must be taught" and it gets old. It is not spiritual at all.

You are correct, Galatians 5:16 does not say we will walk in sinless perfection.


When did sin stop being sin and become awkwardness? I will swap the table on you. Is awkwardness excused or is missing the mark, (sin) missing the mark? Is there partial sanctification? Do we start out being sanctified and then somehow arrive while still on this earth?

I just don't understand the complication of simple.



What scripture are you quoting awe?


I didn't call God a liar either. The scripture I quoted does not say a person will never sin again.
God's Word is pure, but not all doctrine credits God's Word.



Ah yes, the twisting of God's Word. The twisting of peoples words. The strife of tongues...oh wait, that is not Satan, that is people themselves.
I like to think of it this way. If God's Word is read in context, there would be a whole lot less questioning of doctrine.



As many Christians do, but falter somehow-- Those who know they are justified, walk in God's love and not fear of His Wrath or in order to gain for themselves have a better shot, IMO.



Perhaps they just lack the faith needed to do it right.





I am discussing the articles contents regarding performance as a problem.



The commendation comes from giving oneself credit for walking so well.
This can be observed in the manner that attitude rears it's head. It is devoid of love. It is selfish.



Right. You believe there are people here who fall into this category. I am saying this is untrue, unless proof is given.


You stated "WE". Does that not include everyone? This is an opinion you hold.
I say it may be true for you, but proof is lacking for others.



Now do you see why I addressed this?



My point is why bring up to walk in the spirit as if people here don't already know?



Whew...I don't think you are arrogant by the way.



And no one here has said Galatians 5:16 is untrue.



There is a vast difference between walking with God in the spirit and having a specific idea about how that is "supposed" to look or sound or be taught to everyone.



Okay.



Well that pretty much sums up what I stated. If you have exclusive to the "truth" of God's Teaching, so those (now it is me) who give any other insight, or disagree with specific methods of application are in darkness.



And everyone here knows this.


When those in a church body lay their hands upon a man (or woman) for ordination to ministry, they are putting their seal of approval upon them. They stand behind them.

This I will say. If I do not want to see something, I will put blinders on. If I acknowledge God's Word is true and disagree with the application there of, or a specific doctrine, that does not mean I am blind and others see who I disagree with.



I read your question thread.

Blech! Another post with so many quotes. I'll try my best to respond again...

Okay. I did not know you thought the article was untrue. It's kind of funny really, when you think about it. You thought I thought it was untrue when I really thought it was truth, and I thought that you thought it was truth when you really thought it wasn't and had a problem with it. Ya' gotta laugh at that! :)

Right. I know you addressed it....you addressed it by asking how I came by the opinion, so I answered your question...

If you have posted in them and read them, then I don't understand why you said you never heard anyone say it.

Sounds like we agree on this next part.

I believe your intentions are good too, scoob. And I agree that the verse about walking in the Spirit so that we do not sin is like an open door!!!! :)


I don't know what you mean when you say you want clarification about "my charges against people in general." I don't even know what charges you think I made against you or anyone else...
But I can try to clarify my main intent if it would help. My main intent was to say: walk always in the Spirit so you won't sin, and begin with: with God, all things are possible, instead of beginning with: THIS is impossible. That was my main intent with the post. It was to encourage, not to make charges against you personally or anyone in general. I am sorry you took it that way, but once again, I think you are projecting onto me something I have not said.

Walk in the Spirit so you will not sin IS spiritual. I know it doesn't sound so to you, but it IS. And no, some are not striving for this but are rather striving for: Walk in the Spirit so you will cut sin down some, because you can NOT ever stop sinning.

It isn't the verse we don't agree on. It is the beginning premise that we don't agree on. One beginning premise is: God has said if I walk in the Spirit, I won't sin. The other beginning premise is: If I walk in the Spirit, I will still sin sometimes.
Why not just start with what God has actually SAID and go from there? Where has the faith and hope gone with this verse? Why has optimism in His word and faith in it become arrogance? Do you REALLY think my posts sound like arrogance rather than encouragement? It's okay if you answer yes. I just still think you are projecting anger at someone else onto what I am saying. It is perplexing, because I am filled with joy over this verse and its' "open door" aspect! So I get a little confused that this joy and hope comes across to you as arrogance.

Let me just reiterate - I think we agree that we should strive to walk in the Spirit so we do not sin. I think we just disagree about whether it is arrogance or not to start out in it with wild faith and hope in Gods' ability and strength.

Sin is still sin. I guess you didn't get my intent with the example. And yes, "awkwardness" is excused. Are you kidding? He has excused/forgiven so MUCH. He is SO patient with me. I don't care to get into that "sanctification" bit. I will never be able to say that I am sanctified AS I am sinning. It will NEVER make sense to me. I believe I am forgiven even AS I turn from Him and sin, but I am not clean while I am splashing in a mud puddle and I cannot say that I am just to make others pleased with me.

The scripture I am referring to is Gal 5:16. (Yes, it is my paraphrase. Deeds of the flesh are sin.) We will not do them if we walk in the Spirit. Only when we leave off our walking in the Spirit will we do them.

And neither did I say a person will never sin again. I never said that. You seem to think I have, but I didn't. I just insist on a different starting point and mindset than you. I have no idea if a certain person will ever sin again. I DO know however, that IF they walk in the Spirit, they WILL NOT. You are right that the scripture does not say a person will never sin again. Neither does it say they WILL. It simply says if they walk in the Spirit, they will not sin.

I agree the twisting of scripture comes from our own mouths. I do not discount satans influence and buttery language either though. He does exist and he does want to devour me. He is much more sly than I am. He knows EXACTLY what works with me for him as to: well hold on a sec here, Jen....did God REALLY say that...? Or is it more like He meant it THIS way...? But I DO understand your point because I have often thought along those lines of: pfft...I can't even GET to any consideration of what satan might be up to and he almost doesn't even seem to EXIST to me because I am my own worst enemy and he doesn't even need to be concerned with me at ALL because I'll just do all his work FOR him....all on my own!!

We agree here at this part that many believers walk in the Spirit and then "falter somehow." I am one of them. I stop walking in the Spirit and falter, which proves to me why it is important to strive to walk in the Spirit instead of in my flesh and in the world. It proves to me each time that I can do nothing on my own but fail.

Yes, I do agree that we lack some faith in His word. I think we all struggle with a lack in faith at some things He has said. But He grows our faith in Him and proves to us His word can be trusted. And it is amazing that He accomplishes this DESPITE the constant message from the world that we are idiots for our faith!:)

I think I understand what you are saying about performance being a problem. It has existed for thousands of years. But I can't let that cause me to begin with a different starting point than He has given me as regards walking in the Spirit.

I don't give myself credit for walking so well. I just strive to do what the verse says. I do not feel any condemnation for striving to do what He has told me to strive to do. I realize that some think I SHOULD feel condemnation for that, but I don't. I am aware that I could please everyone if I would just make one little concession and declare it an impossibility to walk in the Spirit for any length of time but I can't do it. I think it is His goal for me to walk in the Spirit at all times and just because I falter and turn away does not mean it is impossible. That would make my flesh mightier than Him. With God, all things are possible. And besides, I know that if I do falter, I have an Advocate, so my focus is on obeying, not on my eventual tripping.

yeah. I realize you are saying it is untrue that any of us start with a different starting point than He has given us as regards this verse. I can see the different starting point though. I cannot give any more proof than I already have that some start with different starting points/thoughts on it.

YES! The verse includes everyone! :) I do not agree that it is not true. I believe that when I walk in the Spirit, I do not sin. And I believe that when YOU walk in the Spirit, you do not sin. I really do believe the verse! But we do leave off from walking in the Spirit, and when we do, down we go. If it was easy to deny our flesh and pride and anger and wrath and the world, it would not be anything we needed to strive to do.

No. I don't see why you addressed it.:) I mean, I know from the past that you have a problem with the word "we" instead of "I," but I can't change the way I talk because of your pet peeve with the word "we." :P I do know that the word makes you bristle.

It is because what you think was my point is not my point. It is how we start with different faith and hope in the DOING or STRIVING of it that was my point. You look at what I say as if I am saying no one is walking in the Spirit ever and so it seems arrogant to you. If you could focus on the point I am REALLY trying to make, I don't think it WOULD appear to you that I am being arrogant. But I could be wrong about that. You might just consider me arrogant no matter what...

HAHA!! Your very next point when I just now got to it was that you do not think I am arrogant. Oh, I needed that laugh! I considered going back and removing my previous paragraph but thought you could use the laugh too! :hug: I'm glad you think I am sincere and not trying to be arrogant. :)

I think we DO inadvertently say it is untrue by the starting point that we insist on. WE, WE, WE :lol: Walk in the Spirit so you do not sin becomes, well okay, ....BUT... I WILL sin. I can NOT walk in the Spirit for any length of time...
Why do we start by insisting that our Lord will not grant us this grace? We do not know what He might be pleased to give us regarding this so why not just focus on the verse and the walking in the Spirit instead of on sin? Why not focus on His strength and His Goodness and His Ableness instead of on our weakness and inability? Not to make folly of sin, but so what if we falter if He is merciful and forgiving and patient and can and will lift us back up and His mercies begin anew each morning?? That is what i focus on instead of on my weakness and inability. It is what i think we should all should focus on. And I don't say it out of arrogance. I say it out of hope and faith in His word and LOVE for you.

You say everyone here knows that, but you divided the two in your post...you said to strive to walk in the Spirit so we do not sin is focusing on sin instead of being led by, learning of, having relationship. But all of that is covered by the walk in the Spirit part!!

I am not saying that I have an "exclusive to the truth of Gods teaching." you are the one alluding to me saying that. It is not my intent. It is the way you see my intent as being and I wish this wasn't so. My intent is to encourage and to be encouraged in my faith and yours. It is to share what I have learned from the Spirit to build up your faith and to be encouraged and built up in my faith as well.

Don't understand what you are saying with the next paragraph as an answer to the part of my post that you quoted. I have not tried to get you to not stand behind someone you laid hands on. I'll have to skip trying to answer it because I don't understand what you are saying with it.

As to the putting blinders on with something you do not agree with...okay. That is your choice.

And whew, as for the last, thank you for looking at it and am looking forward to your thoughts on it!:)

Good greif, it takes forever to talk this way to each other! It's one o'clock!

Scooby_Snacks
Jun 12th 2014, 11:56 PM
Elihu,

I am going to shoot strait with you.
I believe you have no idea why I began conversing with awestruck to begin with.
If you did understand, you would have made this clear to me by now.
If you had read the posts in entirety, you may have a better idea, and then you would have to read threads and threads of posts in connection to this.
I am still trying to clarify the very first part of the conversation with her.

Proverbs 26:17
I think your intention as peacemaker is commendable, and I have no intention of biting you, but you do get the idea of what can happen when getting into the middle of things.

That being said, when we work things out, I may be willing to discuss the arguments you presented regarding making grace legalism, but I have had those conversations before in this forum, so not sure if I will engage.

Elihu
Jun 13th 2014, 12:42 AM
I need more than you saying you understand what I said to continue.

Expanding on this angle as it is an issue, the walking in darkness thing.

It does make me uncomfortable how with the mixing of some metaphors it can come across as loaded with condemnation. There are a ton of light and dark/day and night references to different things at different times.

I read Romans 8:4 and while I see the plain honesty of it, I figure how it relates to the passage of time is hard to pin down in words.

One could look at it like the snapshot of a walk at a certain moment attains something, and each new moment is different.

Or look at it like a barometer for salvation itself, if you "walk in the flesh" anymore you miss the boat or are popping in and out of salvation somehow if not in a perfect walk.

Variations threof


I tend to see it explaining each step along the path, rather than the whole journey.



Believing "wrong" doctrine is walking in darkness? This may be possible to use as an honest metaphor, a kind of darkness. Go too far with it and you condemn just about everybody.


I read 1John thinking on this topic, always boggles me up a bit sorting out the back and forth on this topic there.

a snip

My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world. By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. (1Jn 2:1-3)

awestruckchild
Jun 13th 2014, 12:43 AM
Well there you have it then. You ARE connecting me somehow to other conversations in other threads. I don't think you are truly hearing what I am saying (I think you are hearing past conversations with someone else) and I think if you did, you wouldn't think what I was saying was so bizarre or untenable. Guess I could be wrong about that though.

Elihu, I think you can easily understand what I am trying to say and I don't think you need to look back on other threads between other people to understand. I think I have been clear and you have seemed to understand me fine. :)

Elihu
Jun 13th 2014, 12:59 AM
Elihu,

I am going to shoot strait with you.
I believe you have no idea why I began conversing with awestruck to begin with.
If you did understand, you would have made this clear to me by now.
If you had read the posts in entirety, you may have a better idea, and then you would have to read threads and threads of posts in connection to this.
I am still trying to clarify the very first part of the conversation with her.

Proverbs 26:17
I think your intention as peacemaker is commendable, and I have no intention of biting you, but you do get the idea of what can happen when getting into the middle of things.

That being said, when we work things out, I may be willing to discuss the arguments you presented regarding making grace legalism, but I have had those conversations before in this forum, so not sure if I will engage.

All good here, I can believe I don't see the full picture easily.

I did have a good time looking into things myself regardless of success otherwise. :)

I'll leave you too it.

awestruckchild
Jun 13th 2014, 01:08 AM
Well I enjoyed reading your posts, Elihu. Hope to run across you again and I do not mind you being here. :)

Scooby_Snacks
Jun 13th 2014, 03:08 AM
Blech! Another post with so many quotes. I'll try my best to respond again...

Okay. I did not know you thought the article was untrue. It's kind of funny really, when you think about it. You thought I thought it was untrue when I really thought it was truth, and I thought that you thought it was truth when you really thought it wasn't and had a problem with it. Ya' gotta laugh at that!

I did not think the article was untrue.
I posted that I was encouraged by what I read.
This will be, btw, the longest post I have ever written/replied to.

This may be my last go around. I am not angry with you, at ALL. Not sure if you are angry with me, but I can handle it if you were, and I am not beyond admitting if I have offended you.


Right. I know you addressed it....you addressed it by asking how I came by the opinion, so I answered your question...

I also addressed it further by stating that I am confident brothers and sisters here wish to have a closer walk with The Lord and hear the Holy Spirit. I would not say that if I did not truly believe it. And like I also mentioned, for further evidence, we could take a poll.

Therefore, accusations of arrogance must be from a separate issue.



If you have posted in them and read them, then I don't understand why you said you never heard anyone say it.

Because no one ever has. I guess I could have missed something as bold as to say:
"You are arrogant by wanting a closer walk with the Lord and hearing The Holy Spirit!"

If someone said this, link it.



I believe your intentions are good too, scoob. And I agree that the verse about walking in the Spirit so that we do not sin is like an open door!!!! 

I see what you did there…

I don't know what you mean when you say you want clarification about "my charges against people in general." I don't even know what charges you think I made against you or anyone else...

See above.
If the starting point is not the truth what is the point of any declaration?
I am spending time because I feel confident that light is greater than darkness.
So being careful what I say, coming to the truth sometimes takes time.


But I can try to clarify my main intent if it would help. My main intent was to say: walk always in the Spirit so you won't sin, and begin with: with God, all things are possible, instead of beginning with: THIS is impossible.

I understand your point, I really do.
I do not however believe deciding others truths for them in their walk with God is the right starting point.
Just because you believe people are thinking "This is impossible" (Galatians 5:16)
Doesn't mean they are.
I am more interested in the truth, than a perceived truth.

Now if you are saying that people disagree with any doctrine that may have been presented on the forum regarding a sinless walk of perfection, this may be brought forth for examination--
Examination and testing to see if a doctrine is scripturaly sound is NOT denying God’s ability, it is doing what He has called all of us to do. It is just as much as an admonishment to test than to walk in the spirit…


That was my main intent with the post. It was to encourage, not to make charges against you personally or anyone in general. I am sorry you took it that way, but once again, I think you are projecting onto me something I have not said.

I do not believe it is encouraging to say things that are not true. Although you intentions are to encourage, this is not a good starting point.
Anyone can have a perception of what others think, that does not mean it is true overall.
You can own it yourself, but you cannot make others do the same.



Walk in the Spirit so you will not sin IS spiritual. I know it doesn't sound so to you, but it IS.
All I did was ask what scripture you are quoting, not being able to find this exact wording myself.
You cannot twist what has yet to be clarified.
So now looking later in this thread I see you have, thank you.
I don’t like being accused of something I have not said or thought.
The context of Galatians 5 is just as important.


And no, some are not striving for this but are rather striving for: Walk in the Spirit so you will cut sin down some, because you can NOT ever stop sinning.

Again, a perception of yours that you can own.



It isn't the verse we don't agree on. It is the beginning premise that we don't agree on. One beginning premise is: God has said if I walk in the Spirit, I won't sin. The other beginning premise is: If I walk in the Spirit, I will still sin sometimes.

I don’t disagree with the scripture at all. It has no beginning premise or ending one.
It is what it is.


Why not just start with what God has actually SAID and go from there?

And why leave out what people have actually said, instead of both what they have said and what God has said?


Where has the faith and hope gone with this verse? Why has optimism in His word and faith in it become arrogance? Do you REALLY think my posts sound like arrogance rather than encouragement?

I think it is discouraging to say things that are not true about people.
That is the only reason I started this conversation.
It was attached to this thread and something I mentioned.


It's okay if you answer yes. I just still think you are projecting anger at someone else onto what I am saying.
Nope. I am addressing you and what you stated.



It is perplexing, because I am filled with joy over this verse and its' "open door" aspect! So I get a little confused that this joy and hope comes across to you as arrogance.

I’m a little confused that you are making something up I never said.
Read again. I stated I do not believe you are arrogant.




Let me just reiterate - I think we agree that we should strive to walk in the Spirit so we do not sin.

Absolutely!


I think we just disagree about whether it is arrogance or not to start out in it with wild faith and hope in Gods' ability and strength.

Let me be clear:
I believe (some examples) of arrogance are: talking down to people, judging them, either as less spiritual than oneself before ever conversing with them, and continuing to do so, or in any other way that is impossible to judge them unfairly without knowing them.
An arrogant person can either admit their faults be healed from pride and be humble or remain arrogant and deny their sin.
I can be arrogant.
I can only hope to be called on it when it happens and be willing to see my wrong.



Sin is still sin. I guess you didn't get my intent with the example. And yes, "awkwardness" is excused. Are you kidding? He has excused/forgiven so MUCH. He is SO patient with me.
I was making the point to call sin what it is instead of calling it a mistake, or awkwardness, lessening it with softer words.



I don't care to get into that "sanctification" bit. I will never be able to say that I am sanctified AS I am sinning.
Well that is the thing, I believe scripturaly we are sanctified already, being sanctified and will be sanctified.


It will NEVER make sense to me. I believe I am forgiven even AS I turn from Him and sin, but I am not clean while I am splashing in a mud puddle and I cannot say that I am just to make others pleased with me.
Yeah, and that gets to another issue of whether in the middle of sin you are no longer saved…which I illustrated my view of a while back in one of those threads.


The scripture I am referring to is Gal 5:16. (Yes, it is my paraphrase. Deeds of the flesh are sin.) We will not do them if we walk in the Spirit. Only when we leave off our walking in the Spirit will we do them.

Thanks.


And neither did I say a person will never sin again. I never said that.
You seem to think I have, but I didn't.

You know that there are discussions regarding what appears as a sinless perfection doctrine here.
I just believe that if a person stands behind anyone who teaches something as specific as sinless perfection, they support that doctrine as well. I could be wrong. And I am not certain anyone here actually admits to teaching such a thing.
If they do it is my opinion that teacher needs to be walking in it to teach others, if it proves out in scripture. Like many things, most issues can be addressed in relation to scripture through testimony without entire doctrines that claim to be all the truth thrown into the mix.


I just insist on a different starting point and mindset than you.

And that is a perception of me that has no foundation.


I have no idea if a certain person will ever sin again. I DO know however, that IF they walk in the Spirit, they WILL NOT. You are right that the scripture does not say a person will never sin again. Neither does it say they WILL. It simply says if they walk in the Spirit, they will not sin.

I am with you.


I agree the twisting of scripture comes from our own mouths. I do not discount satans influence and buttery language either though. He does exist and he does want to devour me. He is much more sly than I am. He knows EXACTLY what works with me for him as to: well hold on a sec here, Jen....did God REALLY say that...? Or is it more like He meant it THIS way...? But I DO understand your point because I have often thought along those lines of: pfft...I can't even GET to any consideration of what satan might be up to and he almost doesn't even seem to EXIST to me because I am my own worst enemy and he doesn't even need to be concerned with me at ALL because I'll just do all his work FOR him....all on my own!!

I enjoyed reading what you shared here. It was real to me.


We agree here at this part that many believers walk in the Spirit and then "falter somehow." I am one of them. I stop walking in the Spirit and falter, which proves to me why it is important to strive to walk in the Spirit instead of in my flesh and in the world. It proves to me each time that I can do nothing on my own but fail.

I would say it is easy to tell a person “Just walk in the spirit and you will not fulfill the lust of your flesh” another thing to give practical application of how?? That falls along the lines of what Tulian was talking about. We have instructions for Christian Living, but how do we work out having a relationship with our Savior and others?


Yes, I do agree that we lack some faith in His word. I think we all struggle with a lack in faith at some things He has said. But He grows our faith in Him and proves to us His word can be trusted. And it is amazing that He accomplishes this DESPITE the constant message from the world that we are idiots for our faith!

I think I understand what you are saying about performance being a problem. It has existed for thousands of years. But I can't let that cause me to begin with a different starting point than He has given me as regards walking in the Spirit.

I don't give myself credit for walking so well. I just strive to do what the verse says. I do not feel any condemnation for striving to do what He has told me to strive to do.
I realize that some think I SHOULD feel condemnation for that, but I don't.
I don't know why anyone would think you should feel condemnation..

I am aware that I could please everyone if I would just make one little concession and declare it an impossibility to walk in the Spirit for any length of time but I can't do it. I think it is His goal for me to walk in the Spirit at all times and just because I falter and turn away does not mean it is impossible. That would make my flesh mightier than Him. With God, all things are possible. And besides, I know that if I do falter, I have an Advocate, so my focus is on obeying, not on my eventual tripping.


I don't understand why you believe it would please everyone if you were to make a this concession. It makes no sense to me, and I do not believe anyone feels that way--but apparently that is how you feel about everyone. :confused

yeah. I realize you are saying it is untrue that any of us start with a different starting point than He has given us as regards this verse. I can see the different starting point though. I cannot give any more proof than I already have that some start with different starting points/thoughts on it.


If they don't say it, maybe it is not a part of their thoughts or character. Maybe it is, but it is impossible to know unless one is a mind reader.


YES! The verse includes everyone! I do not agree that it is not true. I believe that when I walk in the Spirit, I do not sin. And I believe that when YOU walk in the Spirit, you do not sin. I really do believe the verse! But we do leave off from walking in the Spirit, and when we do, down we go. If it was easy to deny our flesh and pride and anger and wrath and the world, it would not be anything we needed to strive to do.

And this post is so long that I could not find what this was in answer to. I stated that I believed the Word of God.
That no one stated Galatians 5:16 was untrue.


No. I don't see why you addressed it.
I mean, I know from the past that you have a problem with the word "we" instead of "I," but I can't change the way I talk because of your pet peeve with the word "we." I do know that the word makes you bristle.

Hehe, bristle is an interesting word. Pet peeve? I will let it go since I do not always adhere to my own rules.
I addressed it because you stated it wasn't about me, but it was about everyone by what I could see literally...which now you are clarifying to say it was about you, which is good because I disagree that everyone has that same perception as you. Now that was a run on sentence.


It is because what you think was my point is not my point.
It is how we start with different faith and hope in the DOING or STRIVING of it that was my point.
You believe we start with different faith and hope. You perceive this. That does not make it true.


You look at what I say as if I am saying no one is walking in the Spirit ever and so it seems arrogant to you.
STOP. STOP. STOP. I absolutely know what you are saying. I told Elihu I knew what you were saying.
This you will just have to take at my word.

Overall. There is not any person who is going to say or even think it is arrogant to desire a closer walk with God or to hear the Holy Spirit better. Not me, not any other Christian on this forum...That is why I started this discussion.
This would be, in my opinion, Anti-Christ.
I made a point , of pointing this out to you. Do you understand?

Now when you come up with the quote of someone saying that, I will eat crow.

You also misunderstood that it gets old to me for anyone to try to hone away a point of walking in the spirit as if myself and others on this forum are not already aware we (as a collective) are called to do this, that somehow we must again be taught--and I take that as (my perception) Perhaps if someone believes they need to teach folks here this, they must believe:
1. We(as a collective) don't know this. 2. We (as a collective) never walk in the Spirit. 3. Something else.

I am allowed to have my perceptions too. I am being honest with my thoughts.

I do not have to agree about your perception of other people.
I do not have to agree about your perceptions about me.
You can share your perceptions, I understand they are yours.
You do not have to agree with my perceptions. They are mine.



If you could focus on the point I am REALLY trying to make, I don't think it WOULD appear to you that I am being arrogant. But I could be wrong about that. You might just consider me arrogant no matter what...

HAHA!! Your very next point when I just now got to it was that you do not think I am arrogant. Oh, I needed that laugh! I considered going back and removing my previous paragraph but thought you could use the laugh too! I'm glad you think I am sincere and not trying to be arrogant. 


Long posts are a bear...I may just be posting myself out today.


I think we DO inadvertently say it is untrue by the starting point that we insist on. WE, WE, WE Walk in the Spirit so you do not sin becomes, well okay, ....BUT... I WILL sin. I can NOT walk in the Spirit for any length of time...
Why do we start by insisting that our Lord will not grant us this grace? We do not know what He might be pleased to give us regarding this so why not just focus on the verse and the walking in the Spirit instead of on sin? Why not focus on His strength and His Goodness and His Ableness instead of on our weakness and inability? Not to make folly of sin, but so what if we falter if He is merciful and forgiving and patient and can and will lift us back up and His mercies begin anew each morning?? That is what i focus on instead of on my weakness and inability. It is what i think we should all should focus on. And I don't say it out of arrogance. I say it out of hope and faith in His word and LOVE for you.

I hear what you believe. I do believe God must be the focus. I believe Tulian agrees, and why I enjoyed what he shared.


You say everyone here knows that, but you divided the two in your post...you said to strive to walk in the Spirit so we do not sin is focusing on sin instead of being led by, learning of, having relationship. But all of that is covered by the walk in the Spirit part!!

I merely raised a question, that does not mean I had answered it myself. I think the question goes pretty deep, actually. But unable to really expand on what that could mean right now.


I am not saying that I have an "exclusive to the truth of Gods teaching." you are the one alluding to me saying that. It is not my intent. It is the way you see my intent as being and I wish this wasn't so. My intent is to encourage and to be encouraged in my faith and yours. It is to share what I have learned from the Spirit to build up your faith and to be encouraged and built up in my faith as well.


I think I am too tired to address this.


Don't understand what you are saying with the next paragraph as an answer to the part of my post that you quoted. I have not tried to get you to not stand behind someone you laid hands on. I'll have to skip trying to answer it because I don't understand what you are saying with it.


That's okay. Same as above.


As to the putting blinders on with something you do not agree with...okay. That is your choice.

Umm I think I said something else. I could be wrong..might get back to that.


And whew, as for the last, thank you for looking at it and am looking forward to your thoughts on it!

Good greif, it takes forever to talk this way to each other! It's one o'clock!

Yeah that was tough near the end.

Scooby_Snacks
Jun 13th 2014, 03:16 AM
Well there you have it then. You ARE connecting me somehow to other conversations in other threads. I don't think you are truly hearing what I am saying (I think you are hearing past conversations with someone else) and I think if you did, you wouldn't think what I was saying was so bizarre or untenable. Guess I could be wrong about that though.

Elihu, I think you can easily understand what I am trying to say and I don't think you need to look back on other threads between other people to understand. I think I have been clear and you have seemed to understand me fine. :)

Hopefully my last post clarified things. I seek the truth of what you stated regarding others stating it is arrogant to seek close walk with God. That was my main point. You stated it happened here, on this forum.

Rockrz
Jun 13th 2014, 04:36 AM
Be careful not to get caught up in picking a side on this.

I'm on the side of good, sound biblical teaching that takes the entire Word of God into account... which is NOT what the majority of today's teaching on grace provides... it's so very obvious when you see so many people claiming to be Christians living in open sin!

Jesus wants us to stand with Him!

awestruckchild
Jun 13th 2014, 04:51 AM
I tried, scoob. I really did. I can't go through that again, having a conversation that way. To tell you the truth, I think it is just ridiculous. I can't do it again with this new post of yours.

You say that something I clearly see is not happening. You can keep saying it's not happening but you won't convince me because I SEE it happening. And there were some places in this last post of yours that seemed almost completely loco to me. But I cannot do that kind of conversation anymore so I am just not going to even try to address them. I only did so in the first place because I love you and didn't want to ignore you.

The word of God still remains. Walk in the Spirit so you will not sin (yes, once again, my paraphrase).
I love His word, I hope in it, I have faith in it, and I adore this verse.
I SEE and HEAR people refuse to let the conversation progress until everyone admits that it is not possible. You don't see or hear it, but I do. So we are at a brick walled standstill in which I plainly see something that you try to convince me I don't. That cannot move forward no matter how we try to get it to.

I agree that we never get to the practical applications of HOW to begin a more consistent walk in the Spirit. It is a great aggravation to me. It is because we can never get past the bickering over how it is arrogance that wants to talk about it, how to discuss the verse is a heretical "sinless perfection doctrine," how you are being judged or looked down on, how specific word choices are not to someones liking, etc., etc. The attacks of anger at the feeling that to talk about it is being attacked or judged, effectively keeps anyone from getting TO the practical applications of it that could possibly help me. We can never get that far. It is always shut down with hurt feelings that someone is judging or because no one can control their tongue. I too would like to hear more about the practical applications of it from others and to share what little I have come to understand about it, but we can never get there because of all the hollering and hysterics over the verse even being DISCUSSED.

The only thing I really care to address in your last post is to say that I have never once - not even once - been angry at you in the seven years I have known you.
(Now if I lived next door to you that might not be so...:lol:)
Bedtime. Have good dreams, scoob!

Scooby_Snacks
Jun 13th 2014, 02:17 PM
Yeah, that conversation was crazy, BUT I would not change the time that it took to make every atempt to communicate clearly and understand the same. Brothers and sisters in Christ are precious, valuable, and blessings from God our redeemer.

Let me share something with you that happened this morning.

This neighbor of mine a young very beautiful woman continues to visit me to talk about God.
She is J.W., and so, I remind her that I am not, and so to evangelize me isn't going to help me, that I believe in Jesus as Messiah and the Son of God, etc.
But, I tell her, if you wish to talk about God and testify of His goodness, then I will begin.
The Lord, in His mercy and goodness allowed me to speak honestly with this person and her honestly with me, in the midst of my morning, He showed up and blessed us both.
And my morning, struggling to praise Him in a difficult place in my life, He brought His mercy down to me through the conversation I had with this young woman.
J.W. of not, the opportunity to see the heart of love for God can never hold a candle to a system of belief.
It IS relationship and He gives us the ability to have relationships that are spiritually blessed by Him, the creator of the universe.
So any preconceived notions about people must be thrown out to get to the center of the heart.
I believe by expecting God to Act in love, by seeing His goodness and the goodness in others, we see light. Shadows run away...

I thought of you when I posted a song this morning on the site. Peace!

awestruckchild
Jun 13th 2014, 03:30 PM
Good morning scoob!

I was laughing and crying at the same time when I read this post, so for the past hour, I have been looking for a thread I thought you might be interested in reading, but I can't find it.

It was some things I posted about almost the exact same experience I had!
But then, I didn't come back in for a few weeks and in my absence, my brothers and sisters were very worried and discussing whether or not the JW's might have converted me!

I just knew nothing else but that God came powerfully to us (me and this young JW man) as we spoke. And we both had tears and were overwhelmed. I could come to no other conclusion than that some of my brothers and sisters are in that denomination just as some of them are in the catholic denomination and many other denominations. I could SEE the goosebumps on his arms, the same exact ones that I get when the Holy Spirit bubbles up in me, and I asked him about them and if he knew that was a reaction to the Holy Spirit singing in him. He did know that.

It is very bothersome to some that I would say this because they cannot believe a JW could have Gods' Spirit. I agree that they have a lot of error but I think God can not be hindered by the men who try to control that young boy and his relationship with God by teaching those errors. And even now, some will say that I am saying all roads lead to God, which I am not. I am simply saying the only thing I know about that experience, which is that the Spirit of God was IN that young man. Wish I could find the thread for you...

I am going to try to find the song you posted. You have been on my mind this morning too. :hug:

Scooby_Snacks
Jun 13th 2014, 05:47 PM
I am pretty sure I read the thread you are talking about.
There were tears this morning as well..
I do not know about her relationship with her fellowship in J.W. but I do believe we pray to the same God.
That relationship exists, even if the fellowship of J.W. tries to overshadow it.
She told me there were few who read their Bibles and believed in God.
I told her that many people she meets going door to door may know she is J.W. and that causes them to be less welcoming.
I had to say it, because I believe it is true.
I thought what it would be like to go door to door with my Bible...He would have to give me His Words, I am not extroverted.
Just knowing there are many who do not read their Bibles is upsetting enough to me to ask for more opportunities to share The Gospel with others, however He has that happen. Here in the U.S.A. Bibles are easy to get, and to collect dust.

I am adding to this post for a couple reasons:
I know that this woman sought God at a particular point of her life that she shared with me. This was where the tears came in.
I do not know how she ended up in J.W.
I understand they do not believe in the Trinity, and have their own Bible translation (by their own anonymous translators) to fit certain aspects of their doctrine.

Scooby_Snacks
Jun 15th 2014, 04:35 PM
So, how do you explain away what Jesus said in John 15 concerning the Father purging us so we bare more fruit and the Father is glorified when we bare much fruit?

Hello Rockrz, welcome to Bible Forums. The importance of what Jordan Waters quoted from the article is within the article itself.
He answers what he means. We are sinners to begin with. Not good people.

So in response to what you shared..how is it, that anyone might bear fruit to begin with? Is it of our own goodness, or is it Faith in His goodness, toward us? The Gospel...

So by Faith---
We do not bear our own fruit.
He bears fruit from the Faith in Him, His sustenance through us.
Fruit does not determine whether we are justified or not.
You may disagree, as some others here will, I don't know---but the justification comes from Faith in Christ alone.
And IF we have faith in Christ we WILL bear fruit. This is an absolute off shoot of Faith in Jesus not ourselves.
IF we bear fruit, we will be pruned to bear more.


Was Jesus misinformed by the Father, or was Jesus only speaking to the Jews and this is not applicable to Christians today as I've heard some "extreme grace" teachers teach.

Indulging the article itself, what Tulian has seen matters, and so that must be enough to ponder his point of view, as a Pastor and through his testimony.
That by Christians looking at fruit and the production of it, by looking at themselves--rather than looking toward Jesus, who produces fruit in us, the point of fruit from faith in love is leveled down to something we are doing ourselves, by ourselves we can get stuck in our own will for fruit to grow. Is it extreme grace to rest upon Him for the answer--and why we are so preoccupied with doing ourselves instead of looking to and relying on Him.






Exactly. Grace is actually God's presence so walking in the Spirit IS walking in Christ and allowing Him to walk in you at the same time. Much of the teaching of the "gospel of grace" is nothing more than taking a ride to excuseville so people can feel good about themselves and squelch the Holy Spirit's voice telling them they'd better quit being carnal minded because that IS death (separation from God... as in a form of Godliness but denying the power of God Who is the Holy Ghost!)

It is easy to document what it seems is being taught, without reading what it is Tulian is saying, and shrugging it off as something that is not from Him.

Let's see how this goes...

Rockrz
Jun 16th 2014, 02:31 PM
We are sinners to begin with. Not good people.

Speak for yourself!

God taught me out of my Bible that... HE made me a New Creature in Christ, and old things have passed away and all things have become new and He made me the righteousness of God in Christ. We choose to either practice sin (walking in the flesh) or to practice righteousness (walking in Christ, walking in the Spirit)

Sounds like you choose to not believe the New Birth and are confusing our Spirit with our Soul which will always be in a state of being renewed thru spiritual growth as long as we are on earth.

It helps tremendously to rightly divide the Word of Truth by allowing the Holy Spirit to teach us to look at the revelation God provides as a whole, not just bits and pieces.

Scooby_Snacks
Jun 18th 2014, 03:29 AM
Speak for yourself!

Were you a good person when you came to Christ...? Not talking about being born again spiritually or made new overall.


God taught me out of my Bible that... HE made me a New Creature in Christ, and old things have passed away and all things have become new and He made me the righteousness of God in Christ. We choose to either practice sin (walking in the flesh) or to practice righteousness (walking in Christ, walking in the Spirit)

Do you believe you have done this perfectly..putting off the old man and putting on the new, from the get go?
That is in reality, regardless of new standing...


Sounds like you choose to not believe the New Birth and are confusing our Spirit with our Soul which will always be in a state of being renewed thru spiritual growth as long as we are on earth.

Sounds like we are not communicating very well..but, I did say let's see how this goes.


It helps tremendously to rightly divide the Word of Truth by allowing the Holy Spirit to teach us to look at the revelation God provides as a whole, not just bits and pieces.

Certainly you must know more than I do.

Rockrz
Jun 18th 2014, 03:43 AM
Certainly you must know more than I do.

The Father knows all... and I'm taking Him at HIS Word, literally! To look at our short comings and to not consider the promises of God is to live as though you are a stranger to the covenants of promise (Ephesians 2:12), which is being carnal minded.

If God said HE MADE ME RIGHTEOUS...then by God, I am righteous!

The Blood of Jesus has washed me clean, and now since I am not my own and I have been bought with a Price, God expects me to walk with Him with sincerity which is easy since Jesus said His yoke is easy and His burden is light (the burden Jesus has been called to carry is...God's Glory) ... and God said the way of the transgressor is hard (Proverbs 13:15)

I'm focused on things above in a close personal relationship with my Father... which is all I have, which is a good thing cause He is all I need.

Scooby_Snacks
Jun 18th 2014, 04:04 AM
The Father knows all... and I'm taking Him at HIS Word, literally! To look at our short comings and to not consider the promises of God is to live as though you are a stranger to the covenants of promise (Ephesians 2:12), which is being carnal minded.

I didn't say look at ones shortcomings, and neither did Tulian. He proclaims looking toward God rather than ourselves is key.


If God said HE MADE ME RIGHTEOUS...then by God, I am righteous!

Really enjoying the righteousness of God thread...


The Blood of Jesus has washed me clean, and now since I am not my own and I have been bought with a Price, God expects me to walk with Him with sincerity which is easy since Jesus said His yoke is easy and His burden is light (the burden Jesus has been called to carry is...God's Glory) ... and God said the way of the transgressor is hard (Proverbs 13:15)

But what does that have to do with what I asked you....



I'm focused on things above in a close personal relationship with my Father... which is all I have, which is a good thing cause He is all I need.

We need each other as well. There is no body part that works on it's own.
Relationship is up toward God (in a manner of speaking He is also with us) and a-cross...

Rockrz
Jun 18th 2014, 04:19 AM
But what does that have to do with what I asked you....

Exactly!



We need each other as well. There is no body part that works on it's own.
Relationship is up toward God (in a manner of speaking He is also with us) and a-cross...

That's where the "IN CHRIST" part comes in...

So, who is the tulane guy? Is he like one of those "extreme grace" guys that thinks anybody that claims to be a Christian is going to Heaven and it's OK to not walk in the Spirit... are carnal minded Christians going to Heaven who refuse the leading of the Holy Spirit?

Scooby_Snacks
Jun 18th 2014, 04:28 AM
Exactly!

I believe we are having two different conversations. I am having one regarding your original post that I quoted and discussed in regard to the article linked. You are having another.





That's where the "IN CHRIST" part comes in...

Right. And...???


So, who is the tulane guy? Is he like one of those "extreme grace" guys that thinks anybody that claims to be a Christian is going to Heaven and it's OK to not walk in the Spirit... are carnal minded Christians going to Heaven who refuse the leading of the Holy Spirit?

Rockrz, You answered a quote from the article. You brought up extreme grace. I never did (in the manner of which you are speaking of it)

Rockrz
Jun 18th 2014, 04:32 AM
OK, so as long as we're straight on all this... :thumbsup:

Scooby_Snacks
Jun 18th 2014, 12:37 PM
OK, so as long as we're straight on all this... :thumbsup:

Showing antagonism toward something has it's place. As long as the antagonism is properly placed.

Scooby_Snacks
Jun 18th 2014, 01:37 PM
If an individual does not get it settled within themselves, the Grace of God toward them and Trust Him, I believe it is possible for them to easily fall away from the Grace that is intended to sanctify and into legalism.
And so, it seems to me the article is highlighting this point and what happens with so many in their walks, to perform in order to be accepted, (by themselves, others or God) rather than allowing God to sanctify from a state of continuous love toward them.
This does not mean every falls into this category, but it can mean that some who teach or preach might inflame the tendency toward legalism in those who have not grasped the fullness of God's Grace.

I see nothing wrong with teaching the basics again, to ease this correction for those who have lost sight of Him, that they might find Him again, instead of looking at themselves all the time.

My point about antagonism. Being hostile toward sin is one thing, being hostile toward the bretheren is another. Loving God and others with our all may be proven by willingness to walk with/or understand what it is to wear their shoes.

Rockrz
Jun 18th 2014, 04:32 PM
Showing antagonism toward something has it's place. As long as the antagonism is properly placed.

Well, when so called "extreme grace" teachers lead people in to the ditch... that needs to be countered with correct biblical teaching. This is no different than what Jesus did in His days on earth when He countered the false teachings prevalent in His day.

The Bible warns that in the last days there will be much false teaching... and there sure is alot of it on TV and the way they do it is by including alot of correct teaching along with the false teaching so the sheep will take the bait.... and they be lots of sheep takin the bait.

I'm noticing now that several prominent TV preachers are praising the pope... and though he means anything to anybody, which he does not since he adheres to traditions of men instead of what God's Word teaches.

Scooby_Snacks
Jun 18th 2014, 06:01 PM
Well, when so called "extreme grace" teachers lead people in to the ditch... that needs to be countered with correct biblical teaching. This is no different than what Jesus did in His days on earth when He countered the false teachings prevalent in His day.

I would rather not call a specific teaching "extreme grace" but call anything that teaches a different Gospel or something that disagrees with scripture false teaching, because I see God's Grace as extreme.
In other words, I would hate for anyone to ever think what Jesus did for us is not extreme..

http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php/250522-Extreme-Grace?highlight=extreme+grace

In this thread was a discovery phase looking for anyone who was teaching something false, a finding phase and then only a little discussion on what we found.




The Bible warns that in the last days there will be much false teaching... and there sure is alot of it on TV and the way they do it is by including alot of correct teaching along with the false teaching so the sheep will take the bait.... and they be lots of sheep takin the bait.

I'm noticing now that several prominent TV preachers are praising the pope... and though he means anything to anybody, which he does not since he adheres to traditions of men instead of what God's Word teaches.

I was discussing one thing about the Pope I saw as positive today, and that was his willingness to go to confession himself--(even if every person in the world knows he went and seems a bit dramatic to me)
I believe confession can never be underrated, even if I do not agree with some of the manner of confession the Catholic church practices.

You and I know the Pope is just a man-- Seems he is supporting this idea. I don't know much else about him.

Rockrz
Jun 19th 2014, 04:59 AM
I was discussing one thing about the Pope I saw as positive today, and that was his willingness to go to confession himself

How is confessing sin to Mary or some other dead saint be considered positive?

That ain't nothing but contacting the dead which is a grievous sin and opens oneself up to demons!

Scooby_Snacks
Jun 19th 2014, 05:09 AM
How is confessing sin to Mary or some other dead saint be considered positive?

That ain't nothing but contacting the dead which is a grievous sin and opens oneself up to demons!

Confession in the Catholic church is to a living priest.

Rockrz
Jun 19th 2014, 05:30 AM
Confession in the Catholic church is to a living priest.

...and they teach their people to contact dead saints for help praying to ask them to pray to God for them.

And if the pope was going to go to confession, since he's the top dawg he would pray directly to Mary and other foolish religious stuff from christianism

Scooby_Snacks
Jun 19th 2014, 05:39 AM
...and they teach their people to contact dead saints for help praying to ask them to pray to God for them.

And if the pope was going to go to confession, since he's the top dawg he would pray directly to Mary and other foolish religious stuff from christianism

I have a thought. Either strife is your aim (which I am still not willing to totally indulge) or your social manner is worse off than mine, and I will tell you that is a struggle that continues to improve with baby steps in my life. So there is hope.

Rockrz
Jun 20th 2014, 04:26 AM
I have a thought. Either strife is your aim (which I am still not willing to totally indulge) or your social manner is worse off than mine, and I will tell you that is a struggle that continues to improve with baby steps in my life. So there is hope.

Or... you don't know anything about catholicism and/or have fear in saying publicly it is in fact a cult based upon traditions of the wisdom of fallen mankind and is in now way based on what God teaches in His Word.

When you stand for the Truth that is found in God's Word, of course there is going to be strife and opposition... Jesus came to bring division between the goats and the sheep, and He tells mankind that they have opportunity to be with Him so that they may have salvation.

Yet, many choose man made religions such as catholicism instead of a personal relationship with the Father thru Jesus by the Holy Ghost.

But, I understand your point... we should never put down what others believe and we should always get along and accept whatever others think and be positive and flow with whatever everyone else is doing and don't bother with what God says about coming out from among the masses and be separated unto Him. That might cause someone to be offended!

Well, the time is come to choose who we are going to offend... God or man!

awestruckchild
Jun 20th 2014, 02:40 PM
Forgive him scoob.
He is young and very zealous.
We were once just like him.
Or at least I was...I don't know how any of you stood me when I first came here.

Scooby_Snacks
Jun 21st 2014, 02:11 AM
Or... you don't know anything about catholicism and/or have fear in saying publicly it is in fact a cult based upon traditions of the wisdom of fallen mankind and is in now way based on what God teaches in His Word.

When you stand for the Truth that is found in God's Word, of course there is going to be strife and opposition... Jesus came to bring division between the goats and the sheep, and He tells mankind that they have opportunity to be with Him so that they may have salvation.

Yet, many choose man made religions such as catholicism instead of a personal relationship with the Father thru Jesus by the Holy Ghost.

But, I understand your point... we should never put down what others believe and we should always get along and accept whatever others think and be positive and flow with whatever everyone else is doing and don't bother with what God says about coming out from among the masses and be separated unto Him. That might cause someone to be offended!

Well, the time is come to choose who we are going to offend... God or man!

Sometimes it is just what it is.
If I wanted to have an entire conversation on The Pope and Catholic beliefs I would have made that clear.