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View Full Version : Discussion Was the Protestant reformation a good thing?



yogosans
Jun 2nd 2014, 02:38 PM
I think it was but to many denomations can be a little troubling :/

Aviyah
Jun 2nd 2014, 02:46 PM
Well, nearly every Protestant denomination is better than Catholicism. But even if this weren't the case, I believe the reformation was necessary given the heresies and corruption of the organized Church in that time period and prior.

Obfuscate
Jun 2nd 2014, 05:10 PM
Without the reformation no sola Scriptura and no re-claiming the early church stance on justification by faith. Protestants have the same Gospel. Believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved, by Grace through Faith and Justification by faith alone. The true church is where the word of faith is preached (two or three gathered in my name) and the sacraments are distributed (Baptism, Lord's Supper).

petrobb
Jun 2nd 2014, 05:44 PM
I think it was but to many denomations can be a little troubling :/

It is misleading to think that prior to the Reformation there was only one church. there were many Catholic churches and many Orthodox churches. Problems were to some extent avoided because of difficulty of communication.

When I was young here in UK we had only a few denominations, mainly existing together in a friendly relationship, but as immigrants have flowed in they have introduced more denominations. And with worldwide communication so have worldwide ideas flow in. American churches have transferred themselves here.

But all this is far, far better than the corrupt, heretical Roman Catholic church of the Middle Ages, when every Pope was a murderer, and salvation was through responding to the priesthood.

Today, of course, the Roman Catholic church is vastly improved, especially in Protestant countries, and this was due to the Reformation. But they still cling on to doctrines which they cannot justify from Scripture, however hard they try. However, at least now they do seek to justify themselves from Scripture. Once that would have been unthinkable.

So thank God for the Reformation

Fenris
Jun 2nd 2014, 05:47 PM
Well, nearly every Protestant denomination is better than Catholicism. But even if this weren't the case, I believe the reformation was necessary given the heresies and corruption of the organized Church in that time period and prior.
Yeah I agree with this. Plus it made Europe a little more friendly to Jews, even though Luther himself was an antisemite. It created a new religious minority so that Jews weren't the only one.

episkopos
Jun 2nd 2014, 07:08 PM
Transformation is better. :)

Thomas Forward
Jun 3rd 2014, 02:37 PM
Luther taught the confesssional was essential doctrine and anyone abondoning it, he regarded as swine. What protestant church has kept that?

Calvin saw a single authoritative church to administer to the faithful. What protestant church has kept that?

Luther, Calvin and the other whose name I can't remember split over conflicting views of the eucharist. After a few decades there were already 200 different interpretations of the eucharist. Is that the unity Christ prayed for?

watchinginawe
Jun 3rd 2014, 03:37 PM
Luther taught the confesssional was essential doctrine and anyone abondoning it, he regarded as swine. What protestant church has kept that?

Calvin saw a single authoritative church to administer to the faithful. What protestant church has kept that?

Luther, Calvin and the other whose name I can't remember split over conflicting views of the eucharist. After a few decades there were already 200 different interpretations of the eucharist. Is that the unity Christ prayed for?

Luther and Calvin did not see their views as authoritative, that is THE POINT, and that negates in a positive way your criticism of it!

Holding to one and only one wrong doctrine and liturgy of the eucharist is not the solution. By the way, you do realize that Bibleforums is a Protestant forum, right?

Thomas Forward
Jun 4th 2014, 12:42 PM
Luther and Calvin did not see their views as authoritative, that is THE POINT, and that negates in a positive way your criticism of it!

Holding to one and only one wrong doctrine and liturgy of the eucharist is not the solution. By the way, you do realize that Bibleforums is a Protestant forum, right?

You misunderstand me, watching. Calvin wanted and envisioned a single orthodox protestant body of believers united in faith under a single leadership. This is all part of the reformation history documented for posterity.

And I am Protestant. But maybe there is deep irony to be seen in that last comment of yours.


Blessings.

Redeemed by Grace
Jun 4th 2014, 01:04 PM
FWIW, the Protestant Reformation predates John Calvin. Being a Protestant doesn't necessarily mean you are also a Calvinist, but being a Calvinist has it's foundation within the Reformation.

Also to note, that Martin Luther broke the mold in bringing the bible to the masses, pun not intended. Before hand, the RCC was very authoritative, in interpreting beliefs and in government

whitetiger
Jun 5th 2014, 12:41 AM
I think it was but to many denomations can be a little troubling :/

No, while it had good intentions once man got a hold of things now there are more than 30,000 denominations and growing daily

RCJones
Jun 5th 2014, 12:47 AM
FWIW, the Protestant Reformation predates John Calvin. Being a Protestant doesn't necessarily mean you are also a Calvinist, but being a Calvinist has it's foundation within the Reformation.

Also to note, that Martin Luther broke the mold in bringing the bible to the masses, pun not intended. Before hand, the RCC was very authoritative, in interpreting beliefs and in government
Do you believe the Reformation entirely got rid of the vast influence Catholicism had or has on world governments? Just curious because it seems they play a large role.

What do you think?

Redeemed by Grace
Jun 5th 2014, 01:40 AM
Do you believe the Reformation entirely got rid of the vast influence Catholicism had or has on world governments? Just curious because it seems they play a large role.

What do you think?

History has shown us that the Catholic Church was very strong in governmental affairs many centuries ago, and many godly men died for their faith because it clashed with Roman Catholicism. You ask 'entirely got rid'? I'm not very studied on today's political movements, but would take a stab and say entirely it is too strong of a position to say entirely. But will say it's not as it was. But other religions of the world are increasing in it's political muscle.

OneCandle
Jun 5th 2014, 05:04 AM
No, while it had good intentions once man got a hold of things now there are more than 30,000 denominations and growing daily

According to Catholics, Protestantism = Splitmania.

I probably don't have enough space to explain the absurdity of this opinion.

Take the Baptists, for example. There are the American Baptists, the Southern Baptists, the National Baptists, and the Independent Baptists. The Southern Baptists split from the American Baptists, if you can call it that, at the time of the American Civil War. All churches are fully independent in both conventions and it's hard to find any point of doctrine they disagree on. The National Baptists were organized as Baptist churches for Negroes, originally during segregation, and they still maintain their identity. The Independent Baptists, as the name suggests, are a loose affiliation of churches that claim to be even more independent than other Baptists groups, which are highly decentralized in any case.


*The Methodists separated from the Church of England, although there is not a single point of theology that separated them from the Church of England at the time of separation. The reasons that John Wesley and others felt the need for a separate sect were
(1) a new emphasis on Bible study for the masses;
(2) the need to take organized Christian services to the American frontier.
In short, Wesley, and others, did not found the Methodist Church because they were involved in theological arguments with the established church but because they felt a sense of responsibility the established church did not feel.

*Likewise, the Salvation Army is a Christian denomination. The Salvation Army does not have theological beliefs different from mainstream Protestantism, but it does have a unique emphasis on charitable service.

*There are also a number of denominations, organized churches that are not in any sense Christian. These include the Unitarian-Universalist Church, Christian Science, the Unity Church, and the Science of Mind Church. While we cannot count these churches as Christian, neither can Protestants be blamed for non-Christian churches.






While I'm at it on the subject of “Protestantism = Splitmania” …


"The Evangelical Lutheran Church in America was formed in 1988 by a merger of the American Lutheran Church, the Lutheran Church in America, and the Association of Evangelical Lutheran Churches."
Source: World Book under Lutherans

This was a merger of three separate Lutheran churches. The Evangelical Lutheran Church in America is abbreviated as ELCA, and there is one within walking distance of my home.

"United Methodist Church is the largest Methodist denomination in the United States.* It was formed in 1968 through a union of the Methodist Church and the Evangelical United Brethren Church.*"
Source: World Book under Methodists

In fact, I know a woman who was a member of the Evengelical United Brethren Church as a child and is now a member of the United Methodist Church.

"Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.), pronounced prehz buh TIHR ee uhn, is the largest Presbyterian denomination in the United States.* It was formed in 1983 through a union of the United Presbyterian Church in the U.S.A. and the Presbyterian Church in the United States."
Source: World Book under Presbyterians

In 1827, the Quakers in the US had a separation between "orthodox" and Hicksites, followers of Elias Hicks. In March of 1955 the separation was formally ended at the Philadelphia Yearly Meeting.
Source: Encyclopedia Americana, 1998


Contrary to Catholic propaganda, most of the large, conspicuous denominations in the United States have been through MERGERS, not splits, since 1950.

whitetiger
Jun 5th 2014, 05:34 AM
I am not Catholic and Protestantism does mean splitmania

Thomas Forward
Jun 5th 2014, 08:02 PM
I think it's not really looking at the core issue. Yes, Baptists generally teach the same as well as Methodist, Presbetyrian, Assembly of God, and on and on. That they teach the same seems to me purely happenstance. Here's why: Luther rejected the authority of the ecclesial body that ensured the teaching was the same in every Catholic Church and parish all over the world. If, for example, a Baptist pastor began to teach some outrageous new doctrine, there's no one he would ever have to answer to. He may lose plenty of members but he answers to no one in authority. Most other protestant denominations are the same. Although their teaching is similar, they answer to no one in authority. There are sometimes synods to oversee the operations, but really what authority are they given? Those that do get pushed out often go and start some new "independent denomination".


Blessing.

OneCandle
Jun 7th 2014, 05:30 AM
I am not Catholic and Protestantism does mean splitmania

You seem to take the Roman Catholic position on every subject.

OneCandle
Jun 7th 2014, 05:45 AM
I think it's not really looking at the core issue. Yes, Baptists generally teach the same as well as Methodist, Presbetyrian, Assembly of God, and on and on. That they teach the same seems to me purely happenstance. Here's why: Luther rejected the authority of the ecclesial body that ensured the teaching was the same in every Catholic Church and parish all over the world. If, for example, a Baptist pastor began to teach some outrageous new doctrine, there's no one he would ever have to answer to. He may lose plenty of members but he answers to no one in authority. Most other protestant denominations are the same. Although their teaching is similar, they answer to no one in authority. There are sometimes synods to oversee the operations, but really what authority are they given? Those that do get pushed out often go and start some new "independent denomination".


Blessing.


However, the Catholic Church is hobbled by its belief that a Bishop, once appointed, serves for life. He can't be dismissed for incompetence, only for heresy, and only by the Pope. The Pope is supposed to supervise thousands of Bishops, a completely unworkable arrangement, and is often reluctant to interfere.

In contrast, a Baptist church, can dismiss its minister at any time. They don't have to accuse him of heresy, they can just decide to hire someone else. It's a far more flexible arrangement.

I notice that you seem to think that the Protestant Reformation started with Martin Luther. I don't think that's true. For instance, at one time I was a member of the Moravian Church, which was founded sixty years before Martin Luther's Ninety-Five Theses. The notion that Luther started the Reformation is vastly oversimplified.

Thomas Forward
Jun 8th 2014, 12:20 AM
However, the Catholic Church is hobbled by its belief that a Bishop, once appointed, serves for life. He can't be dismissed for incompetence, only for heresy, and only by the Pope. The Pope is supposed to supervise thousands of Bishops, a completely unworkable arrangement, and is often reluctant to interfere.

In contrast, a Baptist church, can dismiss its minister at any time. They don't have to accuse him of heresy, they can just decide to hire someone else. It's a far more flexible arrangement.

I notice that you seem to think that the Protestant Reformation started with Martin Luther. I don't think that's true. For instance, at one time I was a member of the Moravian Church, which was founded sixty years before Martin Luther's Ninety-Five Theses. The notion that Luther started the Reformation is vastly oversimplified.

Hi, your statement on the Catholic Church being suck with a bad Pope isn't entirely accurate. You really should check out Benedict IX.

I think Luther's is the most well known. I didn't know about the Moravian Church. I'll have to check it out. Thanks.


Blessings.

Balabusha
Jun 8th 2014, 12:40 AM
The Protestant reformation was needed and good, it worked until rules of interpretation became ignored, now protestantism needs another reformation

whitetiger
Jun 8th 2014, 01:37 AM
You seem to take the Roman Catholic position on every subject.

Only your perception. I will combat the lies about Catholics that you post (I once was one) and I am not a Protestant, you could say I am closer to Orthodox with a smudge of Charismatic thrown in. I also don't throw away Christian history just because we have Scripture, a book out of Tradition.

Rockrz
Jun 8th 2014, 01:41 AM
Justification by faith alone

What are you going to do about the Book of James?
Consider it to not be inspired by the Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ?

Just curious... the Lord said thru James that faith without corresponding action is not actually faith, so apparently to the Lord there's more to this than just believing alone because the devil believes and it's not doing him any good!

Lots of folks want to use the faith alone thing to refuse to have a personal relationship with the Lord and life on their own terms, refusing to be led by the Holy Spirit which is required to be a child of God according to what the Lord said in Romans 8 which that entire book is quite troubling to grace only people or at least the cats on TV teaching false grace.




I also don't throw away Christian history just because we have Scripture, a book out of Tradition.

Wow! God's written Word was not inspired by the Holy Ghost???

whitetiger
Jun 8th 2014, 02:36 AM
Wow! God's written Word was not inspired by the Holy Ghost???

Where did I say that?

Reynolds357
Jun 8th 2014, 02:57 AM
I think it was but to many denomations can be a little troubling :/

Are you suggesting that tolerating gross error and heresy for the sake of "unity" is a good thing? That way, everyone could just all go to hell together.

Reynolds357
Jun 8th 2014, 03:00 AM
Hi, your statement on the Catholic Church being suck with a bad Pope isn't entirely accurate. You really should check out Benedict IX.

I think Luther's is the most well known. I didn't know about the Moravian Church. I'll have to check it out. Thanks.


Blessings.
He is liberal. He likes Obama. He thinks the USA is a bunch of thieves who extort the third world. I have not seen anything about him that impressed me.

Rockrz
Jun 8th 2014, 04:42 AM
Where did I say that?

Is not this a quote from you? - "I also don't throw away Christian history just because we have Scripture, a book out of Tradition."




Are you suggesting that tolerating gross error and heresy for the sake of "unity" is a good thing? That way, everyone could just all go to hell together. :rofl:

whitetiger
Jun 8th 2014, 10:09 PM
Is not this a quote from you? - "I also don't throw away Christian history just because we have Scripture, a book out of Tradition."



Yes, and your question still does nor make any sense. You need to comprehend being accuse someone falsely like you done. I am not an idiot of course Scriptures were inspired but Scripture came out of Tradition. Scripture did not fall out of the sky all bound in a neat book with gold edges

Rockrz
Jun 8th 2014, 10:46 PM
I am not an idiot of course Scriptures were inspired but Scripture came out of Tradition.

Apparently God disagrees with your statement which was what I thought you were saying before....

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness
- 2 Timothy 3:16

If it's "inspired by God" then it's His Word and is not tradition

whitetiger
Jun 8th 2014, 10:48 PM
Apparently God disagrees with your statement which was what I thought you were saying before....

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness
- 2 Timothy 3:16

If it's "inspired by God" then it's His Word and is not tradition

Edit: Post edited by BrianW. Personal attacks will not be tolerated here. Tone it down or walk away from the thread.

Rockrz
Jun 8th 2014, 10:50 PM
Scripture... is God's Word, not "tradition"

Your statement was contradictory in that you said it was inspired AND you said it was from tradition.

In reality, It's from God... not man's tradition.

whitetiger
Jun 8th 2014, 10:53 PM
Scripture came out of Tradition. Before anything was codified it was Tradition to read the letters than when a Church council meet through the guidance of the Holy Spirit they put together the Bible as a whole.

Rockrz
Jun 8th 2014, 10:54 PM
Scripture came out of Tradition. Before anything was codified it was Tradition to read the letters than when a Church council meet through the guidance of the Holy Spirit they put together the Bible as a whole.

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness - 2 Timothy 3:16

In spite of mankind... God decided what went in His book... if He didn't, then we have no basis for faith in Jesus at all.

whitetiger
Jun 8th 2014, 11:44 PM
And I never dais it wasn't inspired by God. All Scripture was written by man, compiled by man through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. For some silly reason you seem to think Scripture just dropped from the heavens, you need to study history

Reynolds357
Jun 9th 2014, 01:45 AM
And I never dais it wasn't inspired by God. All Scripture was written by man, compiled by man through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. For some silly reason you seem to think Scripture just dropped from the heavens, you need to study history
The 10 Commandments did "drop out of heaven," so to speak. The orig. copies anyway.

Rockrz
Jun 9th 2014, 01:58 AM
And I never dais it wasn't inspired by God. All Scripture was written by man, compiled by man through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. For some silly reason you seem to think Scripture just dropped from the heavens, you need to study history

No, brother you need to acknowledge that you did say it was "tradition".... I'm simply saying God's Word is not "tradition"

Glad we had opportunity to chat about this.

whitetiger
Jun 9th 2014, 03:07 AM
The 10 Commandments did "drop out of heaven," so to speak. The orig. copies anyway.

:)

--------------------


No, brother you need to acknowledge that you did say it was "tradition".... I'm simply saying God's Word is not "tradition"

Glad we had opportunity to chat about this.

Scripture comes out of Tradition

Rockrz
Jun 9th 2014, 03:08 AM
:)

--------------------

It was a divine download!

OneCandle
Jun 9th 2014, 04:04 AM
Hi, your statement on the Catholic Church being suck with a bad Pope isn't entirely accurate. You really should check out Benedict IX.

I think Luther's is the most well known. I didn't know about the Moravian Church. I'll have to check it out. Thanks.


Blessings.


I didn't say anything about popes, good or bad. You apparently didn't read my post.

What I said is that a local Catholic Bishop can't generally be removed for incompetence. The tradition is that he serves for live, just like the Pope. They are starting to make exceptions for sex scandals but even that seems to be a new idea. This is one of many reasons that Protestant methods of organization are better.

Rockrz
Jun 9th 2014, 04:20 AM
What I said is that a local Catholic Bishop can't generally be removed for incompetence.

Wouldn't following catholicism instead of the Bible be incompetence :yes:

Thomas Forward
Jun 10th 2014, 09:35 PM
I didn't say anything about popes, good or bad. You apparently didn't read my post.

What I said is that a local Catholic Bishop can't generally be removed for incompetence. The tradition is that he serves for live, just like the Pope. They are starting to make exceptions for sex scandals but even that seems to be a new idea. This is one of many reasons that Protestant methods of organization are better.

The Pope is still one of the bishops. They can be removed or resign. Generally for life, not automatically.


Blessings.

Ceegen
Jun 10th 2014, 09:56 PM
Only your perception. I will combat the lies about Catholics that you post (I once was one) and I am not a Protestant, you could say I am closer to Orthodox with a smudge of Charismatic thrown in. I also don't throw away Christian history just because we have Scripture, a book out of Tradition.

Orthodox IS Catholic. That was the first real big split in church organizations, and the only reason they split was because they couldn't decide who was head of "the church".

whitetiger
Jun 11th 2014, 01:17 AM
No Orthodox is not Catholic, don't believe lies you heard. Go tell an Orthodox that see what happans

Ceegen
Jun 11th 2014, 02:40 PM
No Orthodox is not Catholic, don't believe lies you heard. Go tell an Orthodox that see what happans

I have, and it is quite humorous, especially when all the weak arguments against this are defeated with a simple look at history and dogma (traditions). The split of the church in 1054 was superficial at best, and the real issue was who would control the church (power/authority).

The same thing is relatively visible in the "protestant reformation", too. Many holidays and traditions have been carried over. Though the greater part of protestant churches have left certain dogmas behind, some are returning and some never left.

Aviyah
Jun 11th 2014, 02:50 PM
No Orthodox is not Catholic, don't believe lies you heard.

They are basically the same philosophically. The only major disagreements they have which I can think of are on the Pope as a leader and purgatory. But both churches worship Mary and the saints, so they agree on their largest heresy to the Bible; and therefore IMO, are taught by the same demonic powers.

whitetiger
Jun 12th 2014, 05:29 AM
They are basically the same philosophically. The only major disagreements they have which I can think of are on the Pope as a leader and purgatory. But both churches worship Mary and the saints, so they agree on their largest heresy to the Bible; and therefore IMO, are taught by the same demonic powers.

No they are vastly different. At one time they were the same but the west added many things like Marian dogmas, Universal Jurisdiction of the Pope, Papal Infallibility, Original Sin for starters. Neither Catholic nor Orthodox worship Mary that is a myth, while the west has some worrying dogmas no worship is present. Catholics and Orthodox will affirm that worship is reserved for God alone. It's okay if someone does not agree with the Catholic or Orthodox Church but it is not okay to bear falsehoods which I see from many here.

Veneration is what they both give to the Theotokos and is no different than what you would do when looking lovingly at your parents or someone dear to you. It would be nice if people actually studied what things they do not understand instead of believe lies. Here is something the Orthodox do not have the same view of the Theotokos that Catholics do. Orthodox do not have a Rosary nor do they believe the Theotokos was conceived without sin, two things the west has added about the Theotokos.

The Orthodox do not have the filioque ( We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son, who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified. filioque in bold )in the Nicene creed because the universal Church never had it, the filioque was added by the West just like Luther added the word "alone" to Scripture both parties said to make things clearer. The addition of the filioque is one of the many things that lead up to the 1054 split. This is a great treatise on the East/West Schism http://orthodoxinfo.com/general/greatschism.aspx and that fact that there were many things leading up to the Schism

Things are never as black and white as they may seem

Adelphos
Jun 12th 2014, 07:00 AM
And here we have what is known as an apparent disagreement. 2 Thessalonians 3:6 sys that the inspired word of God can also be understood as tradition. " Now we command you , brethren , in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ , that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly , and not after the tradition which he received of us ."

They would have received inspired sermons and teachings from the apostles which Paul refers to as the tradition which they had received.

Just sayin'!