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Blain
Jun 30th 2014, 02:46 PM
An issue i have found in the church is the refusing of correction and edifying.
I have talked with many christians and many of them had their own beliefs which is fine but the problem is that teaching them is like talking to a stubborn donkey.
They ask for scripture to prove what we teach them but upon showing the scripture they disregard it because it goes against their beliefs. I believe if we are not willing to learn we will never grow if we dispse correction we become arrogent. I would rather not believe the reason we refuse sound teaching is pride but if we have a learning spirit we humble ourselves and do not get offensive when being corrected or retaught.

another issue we face is the bible a lot of us believe certain parts of scripture but reject others because it goes against our beliefs but the truth is if a certain part of the bible contridicts our beliefs the issue isnt the bible its us.

All I can say is it takes a great person of god to be a learning spirit and not dispise correction and edification

ChangedByHim
Jun 30th 2014, 02:58 PM
I don't disagree with your remarks, but I have also found that we focus entirely too much on others who don't have a teachable spirit and not entirely enough on ourselves having one.

LandShark
Jun 30th 2014, 03:01 PM
The problem is our lack of understanding when it comes to the need for TIME in discipleship. What I mean is, too many get a few months of class and are sent out to work... but that is too soon. Somebody can be called to teach, but must be taught, fully, first.... and that takes YEARS! My next post, if I am allowed, is a short article I wrote on this. I think of everything I have ever written, this is the most important yet those that really need to read it never see it. Go figure?

LandShark
Jun 30th 2014, 03:06 PM
Orla - A Note On Spiritual Maturity

In a world where we move on to the next thing if we don’t get what we want from 2 minutes of sound or 2 paragraphs of print, it is becoming increasingly difficult to get the point across that taking the time to be discipled before walking in our calling is paramount when it comes to doing the work of the Father. It is more than just reading scripture that makes one a disciple, or memorizing certain verses, it is taking the time to install some decent methodology into our studies and developing a paradigm consistent with those inspired to pen the words of scripture, which will allow us to properly discern both scripture and the world around us. Learning the rules of interpretation people like Paul used in his letters, coming to understand the idiomatic phrases unique to the Hebrew people that are found in scripture, being able to at least consider into the words we read the culture and issues of that day, affect context greatly. Giving ourselves the time to grow spiritually is ultimately the difference between the tree which produces good fruit, and one which produces rotten fruit. Wisdom, my dear brethren, is maturing enough to know how to apply what we have learned, that takes time!

In researching the various stages of spiritual maturity we all go through, I came across a rather interesting Hebrew word, orla. (H6190)Like many Hebrew words, orla has many meanings. It is generally translated into English as foreskin or uncircumcision. On one hand then, this word tends to speak about physical things, as in Genesis 17:11 and Leviticus12:3 where it deals with literal foreskins. We then see it used in Exodus 12:48or Joshua 5:7 where it speaks of being physically uncircumcised. But then Orla takes an interesting turn, a more spiritual turn, and we see it used as follows:

Exodus 6:12 And Moses spoke before the Lord, saying,"The children of Israel have not heeded me. How then shall Pharaoh heed me, for I am of uncircumcised lips?"

Jeremiah 9:26 Egypt, Judah, Edom, the people of Ammon, Moab, and all who are in the farthest corners, who dwell in the wilderness. For all these nations are uncircumcised, and all the house of Israel are uncircumcised in the heart."

Deut. 10:16 circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart,and be no more stiff-necked.

Interesting, uncircumcised lips, an uncircumcised heart, and foreskin of your heart… this is clearly more spiritual than physical. Once I saw these, I was pointed to another set of verses, a command actually, which has many meanings beyond just our need to obey it physically.

Lev 19:23 and when ye shall come into the land, and shall have planted all manner of trees for food, then ye shall count the fruit thereof as uncircumcised: three years shall it be as uncircumcised unto you:it shall not be eaten of. (24) But in the fourth year all the fruit thereof shall be holy to praise the LORD withal. (25) And in the fifthyear shall ye eat of the fruit thereof, that it may yield unto you the increase thereof: I am the LORD your God.

When “orla” is used relating to the physical, it seems to imply an inner impurity made manifest on the outside, the physical points atthe spiritual. We see that trend really revealed when orla points to the impurity of the lips, mouth, and heart. But now in Leviticus we really can’t take orla any other way than as pointing at immaturity. During the3 years we are not to eat the fruit, the roots of the fruit tree are growing, a foundation is being laid for that tree so that it will grow strong and produce great fruit… later… when it is ready to. But for those first three years, it seems, we are not touching/picking it so that it can gain strength,mature… grow to the point where it not only will produce fruit but will also withstand the elements which will come against it.

I find then, the similarity between Yehoshua (Jesus) teaching his students for 3 +/- years to be not so coincidental! During the 3 years or so they walked with Messiah, they were taught and while they were at times sent out to preach, Yehoshua was generally there and they were always under his tutelage,under his direction (The mark of a good teacher). They would not be “let loose”though until he ascended, 3 years after he called them. We might also factor in the Apostle Paul, who, once his eyes were opened on the Damascus Rd., went away for three years to Arabia, perhaps to the true Mt. Sinai, presumably to relearn a great many things (Gal. 1:15-18).

I happen to believe we should follow the Leviticus command and not eat from a tree that is 3 years old or less. At the same time, I think it is showing us a picture that while God may call us to do a certain thing,that doesn’t always mean that HE MEANS today. So much of what God does is a process. The Abrahamic covenant is still to this day not completely fulfilled;the land promised through him has never been fully lived in by Israel. No one alive has all of Torah written on their hearts. These things are in the process of being done. Likewise, we ourselves are a process. We come in faith believing, and we are ALL called to do a work for the Father. Yet, when that work or ministry begins depends on when we are spiritually mature enough to handle the job. There are many“teachers” especially online who may very well be called to teach, yet, based on their words and how they treat others, I wonder if it really is their time to teach yet? In any event, I think it is clear through the lesson of orla fruit that we know that some things simply take time to be made manifest and we all should remain in constant prayer regarding our callings. We need to be patient and wait on God.

May you be blessed in your work!

Blain
Jun 30th 2014, 04:21 PM
Its true sometimes we focus far to much on others and not near enough on us. i used to go to a christian forum before it got out of control and turned more into a forum for angry heated debates forum. i pick th name heartsearcher for two reason I searched the heart of god and my own because I saw how lacking and immature i was I saw how unlike christ i was and even now I still am. Im not a strong wise mature Christian yet I still classify myself as a newby in Christ.
But while I may be lacking what most mature veteran christians have I know that if anyone can make me strong and just like Jesus in nature and heart it would be him.

I only teach the valuable lessons God taught me I cannot take on the title of a teacher for reasons im sure u can guess

ChangedByHim
Jun 30th 2014, 05:20 PM
Leading by example is the best way to teach being teachable. Now I'm sure that Landshark doesn't find me very teachable :D. But he doesn't know me in real life :)

LandShark
Jun 30th 2014, 05:25 PM
Leading by example is the best way to teach being teachable. Now I'm sure that Landshark doesn't find me very teachable :D. But he doesn't know me in real life :)

I don't think you're not teachable... like you said, I don't know you. :D At this point I find you to be a fair guy, in love with the Lord... and whatever differences of opinion we have I believe, are really not important. The foundation of our faith is shared between us, after that I imagine you are right about some things, I am right about others, and in the end we >>ALL<< will give a collective Homer Simpson like "DOH!" in regards to how many things we are wrong about. And, at that time, we WILL accept the correction of Father, put it behind us, and move on. I look forward to that day because I am SURE I have many things to yell, "DOH!" about! ;) Blessings!

ChangedByHim
Jun 30th 2014, 05:38 PM
I don't think you're not teachable... like you said, I don't know you. :D At this point I find you to be a fair guy, in love with the Lord... and whatever differences of opinion we have I believe, are really not important. The foundation of our faith is shared between us, after that I imagine you are right about some things, I am right about others, and in the end we >>ALL<< will give a collective Homer Simpson like "DOH!" in regards to how many things we are wrong about. And, at that time, we WILL accept the correction of Father, put it behind us, and move on. I look forward to that day because I am SURE I have many things to yell, "DOH!" about! ;) Blessings!

Well in some areas of doctrine I'm pretty inflexible and I will be the first to admit it. But it's only because I studied the different views thoroughly in the past and reached my conclusions. As a leader, you undermine yourself when you change your views constantly. But I think being teachable is less about doctrine and more about attitude and receiving correction.

LandShark
Jun 30th 2014, 05:44 PM
Well in some areas of doctrine I'm pretty inflexible and I will be the first to admit it. But it's only because I studied the different views thoroughly in the past and reached my conclusions. As a leader, you undermine yourself when you change your views constantly. But I think being teachable is less about doctrine and more about attitude and receiving correction.

I agree with you about changing your views constantly, but I also have to say that you have come close to admitting you are not teachable. We are to prove ALL things brother, and that can only be done when we have fairly and prayerfully considered ALL things. To assume we have heard all things is an error... you throw out a doctrine to me and I promise you I can share a side of it you have never heard... even if I reject it myself! :D I am liberal in the sense that I will hear anyone about anything, and hear them out to their conclusion. But painfully conservative in the sense that change, for me... though it happens, is slow and over long periods of time. But, I imagine you are probably more like that too. Blessings.

ChangedByHim
Jun 30th 2014, 06:12 PM
I agree with you about changing your views constantly, but I also have to say that you have come close to admitting you are not teachable. We are to prove ALL things brother, and that can only be done when we have fairly and prayerfully considered ALL things. To assume we have heard all things is an error... you throw out a doctrine to me and I promise you I can share a side of it you have never heard... even if I reject it myself! :D I am liberal in the sense that I will hear anyone about anything, and hear them out to their conclusion. But painfully conservative in the sense that change, for me... though it happens, is slow and over long periods of time. But, I imagine you are probably more like that too. Blessings.

Yes indeed! That acknowledgment is what keeps me teachable brother. People who can't see this in themselves are in greater jeopardy. Of course, that's JMO.

Slug1
Jun 30th 2014, 06:21 PM
I want to be taught and when the teaching doesn't fully align with scripture, then I will be inflexible. Through this, as I am taught and if what I believe isn't fully aligned with scripture, then I must flex. I'm always the one to say that a person has a choice to accept the scriptures or not. I accept them.

Believe me, I've flexed many times and put doctrines down enough to simply believe and follow what the scriptures teach.

LandShark
Jun 30th 2014, 06:26 PM
I want to be taught and when the teaching doesn't fully align with scripture, then I will be inflexible. Through this, as I am taught and if what I believe isn't fully aligned with scripture, then I must flex. I'm always the one to say that a person has a choice to accept the scriptures or not. I accept them.

Believe me, I've flexed many times and put doctrines down enough to simply believe and follow what the scriptures teach.

There are times however when something being taught doesn't SEEM to align to scripture because it stands so far against our own paradigm/perspective/bias. To prove all things means being able to view outside that bias and fairly and prayerfully at least weigh it out. It doesn't mean we accept it, it might still be a bad teaching, but unless we look beyond ourselves... then we are actually assuming we are ALWAYS seeing things through God's eyes. And I just don't think that is the case, at least not while we still exist in a fallen state.

I can share something that would cause people to call me a heretic and I would be banned from this forum quickly. Yet, it is true, and I have simple black and white Scripture to support it. When I first heard it, I rejected the notion and was actually ticked at the mentor of mine who suggested it. But I knew him well enough to know that if he said it he thought it through in every direction. So, I decided after praying about it to put it on the shelf. I would wait until God could reveal the truth or error of the matter. I then lived life normally for about 9 months or so and then one day somebody said something unrelated but it made something else click, and when it did I understood the point of the teaching I had put on the shelf and now accept it as truth. My point is... if I had flatly rejected it from the start I would have missed a blessing of understanding later. Blessings to you Slug!

Slug1
Jun 30th 2014, 06:35 PM
There are times however when something being taught doesn't SEEM to align to scripture because it stands so far against our own paradigm/perspective/bias. To prove all things means being able to view outside that bias and fairly and prayerfully at least weigh it out. It doesn't mean we accept it, it might still be a bad teaching, but unless we look beyond ourselves... then we are actually assuming we are ALWAYS seeing things through God's eyes. And I just don't think that is the case, at least not while we still exist in a fallen state.

I can share something that would cause people to call me a heretic and I would be banned from this forum quickly. Yet, it is true, and I have simple black and white Scripture to support it. When I first heard it, I rejected the notion and was actually ticked at the mentor of mine who suggested it. But I knew him well enough to know that if he said it he thought it through in every direction. So, I decided after praying about it to put it on the shelf. I would wait until God could reveal the truth or error of the matter. I then lived life normally for about 9 months or so and then one day somebody said something unrelated but it made something else click, and when it did I understood the point of the teaching I had put on the shelf and now accept it as truth. My point is... if I had flatly rejected it from the start I would have missed a blessing of understanding later. Blessings to you Slug!Hooah! We do have to allow the Holy Spirit to do His work and what you describe is allowing the Holy Spirit to do His work to teach and illuminate God's Word.

Redeemed by Grace
Jun 30th 2014, 07:42 PM
There are times however when something being taught doesn't SEEM to align to scripture because it stands so far against our own paradigm/perspective/bias. To prove all things means being able to view outside that bias and fairly and prayerfully at least weigh it out. It doesn't mean we accept it, it might still be a bad teaching, but unless we look beyond ourselves... then we are actually assuming we are ALWAYS seeing things through God's eyes. And I just don't think that is the case, at least not while we still exist in a fallen state.

1 Thesselonians 5:21 But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good;



I can share something that would cause people to call me a heretic and I would be banned from this forum quickly. Yet, it is true, and I have simple black and white Scripture to support it. When I first heard it, I rejected the notion and was actually ticked at the mentor of mine who suggested it.


Hi LS... so if I read this correctly, are you not compromising the truth of scriptures [as you now believe it to be so] just so that you can stay here? If so, wouldn't that be wrong?

Slug1
Jun 30th 2014, 07:54 PM
1 Thesselonians 5:21 But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good;




Hi LS... so if I read this correctly, are you not compromising the truth of scriptures [as you now believe it to be so] just so that you can stay here? If so, wouldn't that be wrong?Compromising scripture isn't the issue RbG... I testify of casting out demons as God has led me to be in a deliverance ministry and many think I'm a crackpot, or a heratic because they don't even believe demons exist today, all because of their church doctrine.

LandShark
Jun 30th 2014, 08:26 PM
Hi LS... so if I read this correctly, are you not compromising the truth of scriptures [as you now believe it to be so] just so that you can stay here? If so, wouldn't that be wrong?

Not at all..... there is one item that is not related to salvation that we are wrong about. It has nothing to do with Hebrew Roots, it simply has to do with the way we word something that is incorrect as we word it. However, if I shared it on ANY forum openly, I would fear the newer folks would have a problem reconciling it because they do not have the methodology to resolve the issue. So, I don't share it so as not to cause any to stumble. I will tell you in private, I just won't post it where newbies can see it and have issues. It is actually a point that some Jewish anti-missionaries have used and I have seen it drive a few families out of the faith because they couldn't resolve it.

Redeemed by Grace
Jun 30th 2014, 08:57 PM
Compromising scripture isn't the issue RbG... I testify of casting out demons as God has led me to be in a deliverance ministry and many think I'm a crackpot, or a heratic because they don't even believe demons exist today, all because of their church doctrine.

Sorry Slug, but I wasn't directly reply to you but to LS, and his reply made sense from the abstract he gave. But for the record, it's not church doctrine never-the-less, it would be understanding scripture. Doctrine comes from understanding scripture. Doctrine is not scripture, which I keep trying to convey to you.

There is truth. Then there is interpretation of the truth. And then there is opinion of the truth. The truth never sways or changes. The other two do. And many many times people believe that interpretation and opinions are truth. :)

Slug1
Jun 30th 2014, 09:13 PM
Sorry Slug, but I wasn't directly reply to you but to LS, and his reply made sense from the abstract he gave. But for the record, it's not church doctrine never-the-less, it would be understanding scripture. Doctrine comes from understanding scripture. Doctrine is not scripture, which I keep trying to convey to you.

There is truth. Then there is interpretation of the truth. And then there is opinion of the truth. The truth never sways or changes. The other two do. And many many times people believe that interpretation and opinions are truth. :)I agree :idea:

There is a however... when a doctrine doesn't align with scripture in all it's context, than it's just a doctrine and this is when scriptures are shown to refute or point out misunderstandings in a doctrine, than it's that moment a person has that choice to follow the doctrine or follow the scriptures.

Redeemed by Grace
Jun 30th 2014, 10:11 PM
I agree :idea:

There is a however... when a doctrine doesn't align with scripture in all it's context, than it's just a doctrine and this is when scriptures are shown to refute or point out misunderstandings in a doctrine, than it's that moment a person has that choice to follow the doctrine or follow the scriptures.


You bet - the sum of Thy word is truth. But again... truth never changes, doctrinal positions are always fluid based on adding more wisdom as God gives. And opinions are just opinions and are not worth debate.

Slug1
Jul 1st 2014, 01:34 AM
You bet - the sum of Thy word is truth. But again... truth never changes, doctrinal positions are always fluid based on adding more wisdom as God gives. And opinions are just opinions and are not worth debate.I agree RbG. One thing concerning this very topic as it's going at this moment is that what a Christian experiences, will align with the Bible also.

Redeemed by Grace
Jul 1st 2014, 12:42 PM
I agree RbG. One thing concerning this very topic as it's going at this moment is that what a Christian experiences, will align with the Bible also.

If I read your comments at face value, when it comes to our experiences, they can confirm or give a false read to what one thinks scripture may mean. So I for one cannot declare that all Christian experiences are beneficially biblical, thus the cautions for discernment, particularly within Matthew 24.

Matthew 24:24 "For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.

Again, just because something happened, doesn't necessarily mean it's Christian true, if you can understand what I mean.

2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.
8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;
9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders,
10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.
11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false,
12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.

The above shows that some experiences are pointers to lawlessness. So IMHO, experiences, although are important, are not the basis of creating a doctrine of truth, saying it happened, it must be the way it is. They must be discerned and compared to the truth of the Gospel.

Ie, some have claimed that they were dead many hours and were in heaven and while dead saw a bright light. Is this experience a biblical truth? Are you skeptical or do you see these claims as being a biblical truth?

Slug1
Jul 1st 2014, 12:47 PM
If I read your comments at face value, when it comes to our experiences, they can confirm or give a false read to what one thinks scripture may mean. So I for one cannot declare that all Christian experiences are beneficially biblical, thus the cautions for discernment, particularly within Matthew 24.

Matthew 24:24 "For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.

Again, just because something happened, doesn't necessarily mean it's Christian true, if you can understand what I mean.

2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.
8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;
9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders,
10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.
11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false,
12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.

The above shows that some experiences are pointers to lawlessness. So IMHO, experiences, although are important, are not the basis of creating a doctrine of truth, saying it happened, it must be the way it is. They must be discerned and compared to the truth of the Gospel.

Ie, some have claimed that they were dead many hours and were in heaven and while dead saw a bright light. Is this experience a biblical truth? Are you skeptical or do you see these claims as being a biblical truth?There are many visions given to many throughout the Bible so with any "experience" such as what you described, there is the NEED to test the spirit. Paul and John come to mind as to having specific visions of heaven (to some degree, both were even told NOT to write about what they saw) so we can't automatically discount any vision of heaven. We can however CLEARLY test the vision or any vision for that matter.

So is it a Biblical truth that God can give a vision of heaven... YES.

Will Christians be sceptical of such testimony... YES.

Have I been sceptical... YES.

There is however much I was sceptical about and I will always raise gifts of the Holy Spirit as an example because I was raised in a church that REFUSED to believe any of the gifts of the Holy Spirit were for today's Body of Christ. I was very sceptical until I chose to surrender all that over to God and He's proven my scepticism was blinding me and limiting me in experiencing so much more that He does through the Body of Christ in and BY His power.

Because the enemy does false signs and wonders proves that God still does signs and wonders. If God stopped doing signs/wonders, then ANY and EVERY sign/wonder out there in the world be satan revealing himself, not pretending or deceiving the Body of Christ or the world. There would be NO NEED to test the spirit because ALL signs/wonders would be satan and not God. So just by the fact we are to always test, proves that God does signs/wonders... but, because of much false doctrine out there in churches being used to DO the testing with, ALL signs/wonders are determined to be of satan. VISIONS do fall under this as well. We are to use the Bible or the very gifts given to the Body of Christ to do the testing with (ie. Gift of Discernment of Spirits, Word of Knowledge, Word of Wisdom) to test the spirits... not a doctrine that says all gifts have ended. There are Christians who DO use the many cessationist doctrines to test the spirits and they will say, due to the doctrine, that when they witness the Holy Spirit empower a sign/wonder (even speaking in tongues) they will account the power to satan.

So do Christians such as this have a "learning" spirit... NO.

Concerning the "light" at the end of the tunnel.... well, I really dont recall any vision in the Bible, specially ones of heaven requiring a person to have their heart stop first. Usually, for a person to have visions that God gives it's to those who are faithful in their relationship with and have a godly fear of God and are thus in obedience to Him. They listen to Him, know His voice and walk in the power of God as they walk in the Spirit.