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Old man
Jul 9th 2014, 08:00 PM
What is “this gospel of the kingdom” mentioned in Matt 24:14? What is the actual message preached (or close estimation)?

Noeb
Jul 9th 2014, 11:52 PM
I think it's the coming kingdom.

LandShark
Jul 10th 2014, 01:13 AM
What is “this gospel of the kingdom” mentioned in Matt 24:14? What is the actual message preached (or close estimation)?

Sometimes words like heaven and kingdom are used synonymously... however, in this case I believe we are given a little hint that the gospel is more than just Jesus died and was raised. When you factor in verses like this, or even one like Galatians 3:8, I think we begin to see that the good news has some broader implications. Blessings!

Walls
Jul 10th 2014, 06:21 AM
What is “this gospel of the kingdom” mentioned in Matt 24:14? What is the actual message preached (or close estimation)?

Contrary to popular contemporary Christian teaching today, the MAIN theme of the Bible is not Salvation. The main theme of scripture is "Who will get to rule the earth?" Genesis 1:26-28 outlines God's plan with man, and this was some time before the fall of man. Salvation is added to restore men to this former high calling, and the Man Jesus is designated to be the King over all men. In Genesis 1:26-28 the word "subdue" is added, showing that some sort of rebellion is in progress, and throughout the narrative we find a certain Angel, who seems to be the original governor of the earth, trying to keep his position as "Prince of this world." The resulting battle, including the deception in the Garden of Eden, is all about this.

When God starts to make His move to recover His Plan, he chooses one man, Abraham, and promises him and his seed the earth (Gen.12:7; Rom.4:13). This man and his seed are followed through the bible, first via Isaac as the nation of Israel, and then via the Israelite King Jesus Christ (Gal.3:29). The bible ends a period of restoration of MEN after about 6'000 years when the designated King - Jesus, sets foot on earth again, defeats the kings and armies of the earth, and sets up His government. That is the gospel of the Kingdom. Because, the king is from heaven, and the rule, or Law is heavenly, it is called "the Kingdom of the Heavens". Because it all belongs to God, and its rule of law stems from God, it is conversely called "the Kingdom of God". This was our Lord Jesus prayer in Matthew 6:9-10.

"9 ..... Our Father which art in heaven (the source is God and the rule is from heaven), Hallowed be thy name.
10 Thy (God's) kingdom come. Thy will (what goes in heaven - heavenly rule) be done in earth, as it is in heaven."

But a huge stumbling block lay in the way. Sin, and its result - death! How can fallen men rule the way a sinless God wants, and how can dead men rule? So a sovereign and intricate plan is devised because God is 100% righteous and EVERY sin had to be met with appropriate retribution. So, this same Jesus, born of a Virgin so that he is 100% man, but born of the Holy Spirit so that His lineage is not tainted by the sinful nature of Adam (or the man), walks this earth for 33 1/2 years under God's Law, and does not fail once. Having been found sinless, He is deemed a natural substitute for other sinful men, and pays the high price of God's just retribution on every sin ever committed and ever to be committed. As proof that all sin is put away, this Jesus is raised from the dead by God to make apparent that sins are fully dealt with, because if one sin still remained, this Jesus could not have been resurrected - because the wages of sin is death.

The complete work of this Jesus in putting men's sins away before a 100% righteous God instead of those men paying themselves, is called "the gospel of grace" (Act.20:24).

This Jesus now offers men this Substitution if they call upon His name with faith. If men do call upon the name of Jesus in faith that He is the Son of God and that He died for their sins, they are STARTED on a path of recovery to be KINGS of this earth. Thus, the "gospel of grace" is needed so that the "gospel of the Kingdom" (who rules the earth) can be realized. The Apostles and disciples of Jesus taught the "gospel of grace" AS IT IS NEEDED FOR THE GOSPEL OF THE KINGDOM - THE FINAL RESULT OF THE SAVING OF MEN FOR RULING THE EARTH.

Ceegen
Jul 10th 2014, 07:31 AM
What is “this gospel of the kingdom” mentioned in Matt 24:14? What is the actual message preached (or close estimation)?

Since the words of Jesus were recorded "as is", it would seem that the gospel that Jesus was referring to is the one that we read when we quote things like Matthew 24. :)

After all, He does know of things before they happen.

Catalyst
Jul 10th 2014, 04:35 PM
What is “this gospel of the kingdom” mentioned in Matt 24:14? What is the actual message preached (or close estimation)?

The word Kingdom there, doesn't reference a place, but references a dominion. For example, wherever the KING is, is the Kingdom. Not just in heaven, or Jerusalem, or whatever your personal beliefs are.

So being part of the CHURCH which Christ is the High Priest of, is where the Kingdom is. What is the Gospel of the Church? I don't hear it preached anymore. I hear judgemental threats preached anymore.... Makes me weepy eyed.

episkopos
Jul 10th 2014, 04:40 PM
What is “this gospel of the kingdom” mentioned in Matt 24:14? What is the actual message preached (or close estimation)?

I don't hear much about the kingdom in the gospel I hear being preached in this day and age. What I hear is a self-serving gospel of an assured salvation that serves the carnal man. Many believe the "good news" about a salvation for a continued sinful life.

But before the end...the true gospel of entering into the kingdom life will resurface.

Old man
Jul 10th 2014, 05:33 PM
… But before the end...the true gospel of entering into the kingdom life will resurface.
Is this the gospel being mentioned here in Matt 24:14? And what according to your understanding is the actual message that will be preached?

It’s great to use words like “gospel” or “good news” but these are ambiguous terms which refer to a particular message. If you were to walk up to someone and say “believe the gospel of the kingdom” would they not look at you wondering what you are talking about? The actual word “gospel” is meaningless and unless there is a specific understandable message that we attach the term “gospel” to those being reached out to will not understand.

I would like to find out what people think the actual particular message is when they refer to “the gospel” as it is used in the context of Matt 24:14.

Old man
Jul 10th 2014, 05:41 PM
I think it's the coming kingdom.

Hi Noeb;

What do you think the actual message about the coming kingdom would be? What would people be told? If you were the one preaching this gospel what would you say?

RogerW
Jul 10th 2014, 06:19 PM
What is “this gospel of the kingdom” mentioned in Matt 24:14? What is the actual message preached (or close estimation)?

I would say the Gospel of Christ coming in His Kingdom. The Gospel is the life, death and resurrection of Christ, which of course we proclaim. But we don't merely proclaim the Gospel and leave out the fact that Christ came in His Kingdom. We are called to preach His Kingdom has come, and entrance into His Kingdom is to be born again through His Spirit in us. His Kingdom, that Christ came in is Spiritual, not physical, and all who worship there worship in spirit and truth.

Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Catalyst
Jul 10th 2014, 06:25 PM
R,

I think the Gist of our answers are similar. Just for transparency, here's where I differ in my views from yours....


I would say the Gospel of Christ coming in His Kingdom.
The Gospel is the life, death and resurrection of Christ, which of course we proclaim. But we don't merely proclaim the Gospel and leave out the fact that Christ came in His Kingdom.[/quote]

I would say that is maybe 1/3 of the Gospel, and it's the selfish part, too, not the good par



We are called to preach His Kingdom has come, and entrance into His Kingdom is to be born again through His Spirit in us.

Only a few have evangelizing gifts. The rest are other parts of the body that support the ones gifted with delivering the message. Too many people try to discern, teach, and evangelize who are not gifted for that role in the Body already.

petrobb
Jul 10th 2014, 10:42 PM
What is “this gospel of the kingdom” mentioned in Matt 24:14? What is the actual message preached (or close estimation)?

It is simply the good news that the Kingly Rule of God is now on earth and all who will truly believe in Jesus Christ will enter into it. By doing so each individual comes under the Kingly Rule of God. Once we have truly done so we will seek to do the will of our Father in Heaven

That was the message Jesus preached. It was the message Paul preached. It should be our message today. It has nothing at all to do with a coming kingdom.

Noeb
Jul 11th 2014, 01:07 AM
Hi Noeb;

What do you think the actual message about the coming kingdom would be? What would people be told? If you were the one preaching this gospel what would you say?Wow, that's a biggy! Well, I don't think what the coming kingdom would be is the focus of the passage. Jesus just ripped the pharisees again, even more so, saying, judgement is sure, and their house is left to them desolate, then walked out. People would prophetically proclaim "Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord", but not before the Lord of the temple himself left the house/temple (desolate), that he then says will be destroyed after also saying "How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not!" The disciples didn't think it was going to be such a long time before his return. Going away? What does that mean? The entire chapter says "long time" even the phrase "gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world". There's lots of prophecy about the Messianic Kingdom to produce imagery in every ones mind, but IMO the point of the verse is this, "and then the end will come", which is to say, the long wait of my return will be over. That is good news, in light of all he says will happen while he is gone.

Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Rev 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
Rev 14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

Note: it's the "gospel of the kingdom", not another gospel of this or that. What kingdom? The everlasting kingdom. Babylon falls, The Kingdom comes.

cuban
Jul 13th 2014, 04:00 AM
What is “this gospel of the kingdom” mentioned in Matt 24:14? What is the actual message preached (or close estimation)?

Rom 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.
Rom 14:18 For the one serving Christ in these things is pleasing to God, and approved by men.

It is best described when contrasted with what it is not. Not the outward appearance, but the inner reality.


1Co 4:20 For the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power.

Kingdom living is true religion, and the gospel is its bold declaration. Not in word, but in power. Those walking in the Spirit's power can discern when another is merely "talking in the Spirit".

1Co 4:18 As to my not coming to you now, some were puffed up.
1Co 4:19 But if the Lord wills, I will come to you shortly. And I will not know the word of those who have been puffed up, but the power.


Accordingly, those responding to this gospel can make no cheap profession of faith. The true spiritual kingdom of which Christ is the Head is powerful, for God has chosen Christ to be His power.
This power through the indwelling Holy Spirit that empowers members of Christ's body to overcome sin and its effects, is the message being preached. And when that Word is faithfully preached in power, signs will follow.

Repent, turn away from sin, and awaken to a newness of life. A new life of power over death, sin, and all wickedness.


John 6:63 It is the Spirit that gives life. The flesh does not profit, nothing! The Words which I speak to you are spirit and are life.

1Th 1:5 For our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit, and in much assurance, even as you know what kind we were among you for your sake.


The gospel of the kingdom is in the power of God's righteousness, peace and joy, abiding in Christ Jesus the True Vine.

carboy
Jul 13th 2014, 08:19 PM
What is “this gospel of the kingdom” mentioned in Matt 24:14? What is the actual message preached (or close estimation)?

I believe we see Peter preaching the gospel of the kingdom in Acts 2. Using prophetic language to preach Jesus. Billy Graham and just about any evangelist does the same thing. John the baptist in a way preached this. "Repent for the kingdom of God is near." Jesus is coming, repent. The gospel of peace, The Prince of Peace, there will be no lasting or true peace until Jesus comes. He is the "Prince of Peace." "Shod your feet with the gospel of peace."

The Jahovah Wittnesses follow the instructions and do this very well. Their whole evangelism really revolves around the growing problems of the world and the answer being the watch tower society. We who believe Jesus is the Son of God and is not "forever dead" but alive and sitting at the right hand of the Father have the true gospel and discuss prophecy, unfortunately much of the time, like digits on a black board.

Preaching the gospel of the kingdom is using the reality of the world to preach the truth of the Word. The only answer is Jesus. Peter using the events of Pentecost preached connecting it to Joel and preached the gospel, Jesus and Him crucified and raised from the dead. Jesus and Him crucified Him resurrected and Him coming again.

Noeb
Jul 13th 2014, 08:45 PM
When Jesus went all around Galilee he did not preach his death and resurrection, yet he preached the gospel of the kingdom (Mat 4:23, 9:35) to only Israel/no Gentiles. He said some things to the disciples but they didn't get it until after the resurrection, having received the Spirit and their eyes opened to all the Scriptures. John the Baptist did not preach the death and resurrection of Messiah.

carboy
Jul 13th 2014, 09:10 PM
When Jesus went all around Galilee he did not preach his death and resurrection, yet he preached the gospel of the kingdom (Mat 4:23, 9:35) to only Israel/no Gentiles. He said some things to the disciples but they didn't get it until after the resurrection, having received the Spirit and their eyes opened to all the Scriptures. John the Baptist did not preach the death and resurrection of Messiah.

you have misunderstood the post.This is what I'm talking about digits on a black board. You have missed the spirit of what I am saying.

Noeb
Jul 13th 2014, 09:17 PM
The post was directed any who think the gospel of the kingdom has to do with the death and resurrection.

petrobb
Jul 13th 2014, 09:29 PM
When Jesus went all around Galilee he did not preach his death and resurrection, yet he preached the gospel of the kingdom (Mat 4:23, 9:35) to only Israel/no Gentiles. He said some things to the disciples but they didn't get it until after the resurrection, having received the Spirit and their eyes opened to all the Scriptures. John the Baptist did not preach the death and resurrection of Messiah.

Firstly you should note that Jesus initially preached to the lost sheep of the house of Israel, but after His encounter with the Syro-phoenician woman He extended His ministry so that it would include Gentiles. Thus from Mark 7.31-8.10 he was preaching in what was specifically Gentile territory. Clearly many Jews would have been living in those territories, but unquestionably many Gentiles would also come to hear Him and to experience healing. Thus the feeding of the four thousand was in Gentile territory.

Secondly while it is true that Jesus preached the good news of the Kingly Rule of God during His lifetime, it is also true that Paul continued to preach the good news of the Kingly Rule of God after Jesus death and resurrection. It was the same message although with the addition of the benefits of the cross and resurrection (Acts 28,23, 31).

In both cases the message was that men could NOW enter under the Kingly Rule of God. Theis was the good news of the Kingly Rule.

Noeb
Jul 13th 2014, 11:33 PM
You are wrong in both counts

petrobb
Jul 14th 2014, 01:24 PM
You are wrong in both counts

thank you Gabriel LOL

petrobb
Jul 14th 2014, 01:31 PM
John the Baptist did not preach the death and resurrection of Messiah.

'Behold the Lamb of God Who takes away the sins of the world' (John 1.29) ?

luigi
Jul 14th 2014, 01:47 PM
What is “this gospel of the kingdom” mentioned in Matt 24:14? What is the actual message preached (or close estimation)?
It is a comprehensive understanding of all the Word of God that the saints will agree upon their meaning.

Noeb
Jul 14th 2014, 03:20 PM
'Behold the Lamb of God Who takes away the sins of the world' (John 1.29) ?Thanks!
.

Noeb
Jul 14th 2014, 03:21 PM
thank you Gabriel LOLYou are welcome!

Aijalon
Jul 19th 2014, 09:52 PM
'Behold the Lamb of God Who takes away the sins of the world' (John 1.29) ?

It is true that the this verse does not mean that John the Baptist refers to Jesus' death. He simply refers to the man, Christ.

Christ is priest and Lamb, and his blood does not atone sin alone, but the priest must apply the blood to provide for forgiveness of sin, represented not by the blood itself, but by the escape of the scapegoat.

Noeb
Jul 19th 2014, 10:07 PM
Lets say Jesus' death was the intended meaning. Who would have gotten it, and is that how the gospel is preached? No. John did not preach that gospel.

Old man
Jul 20th 2014, 04:33 AM
So here is an added question. Is the gospel mentioned in Matt 24:14 "This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.” the same gospel that is referred to as having been preached to all the nations in Matt. 24:9 "Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.”?

I am assuming that the reason all the nations hate them (verse 9) is because of the gospel they preached. They preached Jesus and the nations hated them for it. Why else would the nations hate them because of Jesus? But this time (verse 9) that gospel which all the nations heard is not related to "the end" as the gospel mentioned in verse 14 is.

Walls
Jul 20th 2014, 07:25 AM
So here is an added question. Is the gospel mentioned in Matt 24:14 "This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.” the same gospel that is referred to as having been preached to all the nations in Matt. 24:9 "Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.”?

I am assuming that the reason all the nations hate them (verse 9) is because of the gospel they preached. They preached Jesus and the nations hated them for it. Why else would the nations hate them because of Jesus? But this time (verse 9) that gospel which all the nations heard is not related to "the end" as the gospel mentioned in verse 14 is.

The question is; what about the gospel is HATEWORTHY?

As I mentioned in my posting #4, we have the gospel of the kingdom and the gospel of grace.

The gospel of the Kingdom is very hateworthy because it preaches to all and sundry that (1) their present king will be replaced, and (2) the King Who replaces him has risen from the dead, never to die again. That is, while the present king is mortal and limited in reign until death rips his kingdom away from him, this Jesus' Kingdom will have no end. Just as the Pharisees saw our Lord Jesus as a Man about to unseat them (who sat in Moses' seat - Matt.23:2), so also the kings of the earth, whose reign is always cut short by death, hated this Jesus Whose disciples were proclaiming this new and coming King. Paul's gospel was, in 2 Timothy 2:8-13;

"8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the (1) seed of David was (2) raised from the dead according to my gospel:
9 Wherein I suffer trouble, as an evil doer, even unto bonds; but the word of God is not bound.
10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself."

Here it is clear what Paul's gospel was. (1) a Man of royal descent who will lay claim to;

The throne of the Jews because He is David's Son
The throne of the world because through David He is also seed of Abraham to whom the world is promised (Rom.4:13)

.... and (2) a Man risen from the dead. That is, He, if He does take the throne of Israel, and does take the throne of the world, will never be displaced. His reign is forever, and ALL present kings will be subjected to Him.

This is abhorrent to men who are either kings, or politically and commercially involved with their king, as we see in Revelation 18 when the Commercial Babylon is destroyed.

But why would the Gospel of Grace be abhorrent? It is this. The Gospel of Grace is based on the fact that men are totally evil, depraved and swamped in sin. This is why they need a Savior. It is totally repugnant to the pride of any man to admit that he is totally lost, morally corrupt and unable to extricate himself from this mess. The road to success of anyone preaching the Gospel of Grace is that the listener becomes aware of their sins. This is the main work of the Holy Spirit among unbelievers. It is, in John 16:7-8;

"7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of (1) sin, and of (2) righteousness, and of (3) judgment:"

The Christian who preaches the undiluted Gospel of Grace bases it on the darkness of men and their need for salvation by One Humble Man Who lived centuries ago. It accuses them of (1) sin - a constant and relentless tendency to always do what is evil, (2) unrighteousness in practically all their doings, and (3) a coming judgement where, far from their myth of "the scales of justice", they will answer for EVERY sin they ever committed with NO HOPE of reprieve. Men hate this! Who and why did they kill Stephen? The "WHO" is "men, brethren and fathers" (of Israel - Act.7:1 - for that is who he was addressing). That is, a mixed group of Israelites containing ordinary men and leaders. The "WHY" is because Stephen pointed out their history of sin and their present inward condition.

Thus, both the Gospel of Grace, by which men admit their sins and the dire need of a Savior, and the Gospel of the Kingdom, by which all kings and their subjects will bow to a New and Everlasting King, Who does not conform to the present state of affairs, are abhorrent to men.

petrobb
Jul 20th 2014, 12:15 PM
It is true that the this verse does not mean that John the Baptist refers to Jesus' death. He simply refers to the man, Christ.

Christ is priest and Lamb, and his blood does not atone sin alone, but the priest must apply the blood to provide for forgiveness of sin, represented not by the blood itself, but by the escape of the scapegoat.

A lamb which takes away sin? It has to refer to a sin offering. And that indicates death. John clearly knew that the One Who had come must die for the sins of the world.

petrobb
Jul 20th 2014, 12:59 PM
Lets say Jesus' death was the intended meaning. Who would have gotten it, and is that how the gospel is preached? No. John did not preach that gospel.

He preached the coming of the Kingly Rule of God calling on men to enter under God's Kingly Rule, He proclaimed that Jesus had come as a sin offering Who takes way the sin of the world. It seems like the Gospel to me, even though it was not in its fullest sense as Jesus had not yet died.

petrobb
Jul 20th 2014, 01:23 PM
The question is; what about the gospel is HATEWORTHY?

As I mentioned in my posting #4, we have the gospel of the kingdom and the gospel of grace.

The Gospel of the Kingly Rule of God, good news that NOW we can come under His Kingly Rule, and the Gospel of the grace of God, are the SAME Gospel. Compare Matt 24.14 with Mark 13.10.

Any teaching that fails to see Matt 24; Mark 13 and Luke 21 as parallels and to treat them as such has in my view no validity.

Today we pray daily, 'may your Kingly Rule come, may your will be done on earth as it is in Heaven', seeking that the the Gospel might be so preached that God's Kingly Rule may be established more and more on earth NOW.

Paul regularly proclaimed the Kingly Rule of God as He preached Jesus (e.g. Acts 28.31)


The gospel of the Kingdom is very hateworthy because it preaches to all and sundry that (1) their present king will be replaced,

The Gospel of the Kingly Rule of God did not say that anyone would be replaced. Even Herod did not fear God's Kingly Rule. It was a recognition that God rules over the world and that men should thus respond to Him.


and (2) the King Who replaces him has risen from the dead, never to die again.

but Jesus preached the Good News of the Kingly Rule of God.(Mark 1.14-15)


That is, while the present king is mortal and limited in reign until death rips his kingdom away from him, this Jesus' Kingdom will have no end.


It was GOD'S Kingly Rule that was preached, the Gospel of the grace of God.

petrobb
Jul 20th 2014, 01:27 PM
So here is an added question. Is the gospel mentioned in Matt 24:14 "This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.” the same gospel that is referred to as having been preached to all the nations in Matt. 24:9 "Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.”?

I am assuming that the reason all the nations hate them (verse 9) is because of the gospel they preached. They preached Jesus and the nations hated them for it. Why else would the nations hate them because of Jesus? But this time (verse 9) that gospel which all the nations heard is not related to "the end" as the gospel mentioned in verse 14 is.

But the whole point is that the Gospel of God's Kingly rule present among men which could be entered through the blood of Christ would be proclaimed from the resurrection until the second coming. It is not 'related to the end' it is just that it will be preached to the end and will be proclaimed throughout the world.

ctmarine5
Jul 20th 2014, 01:45 PM
What is “this gospel of the kingdom” mentioned in Matt 24:14? What is the actual message preached (or close estimation)?

It's simple...it's a prophecy of the Gospel(meaning good news) of the Kingdom will be told in the whole world like it never has before ...that is a prime sign we are living in the Birth Pains.

Luke 10 will help you here.
When you enter a house, first say, ‘Peace to this house.’ 6 If someone who promotes peace is there, your peace will rest on them; if not, it will return to you. 7 Stay there, eating and drinking whatever they give you, for the worker deserves his wages. Do not move around from house to house.

8 “When you enter a town and are welcomed, eat what is offered to you. 9 Heal the sick who are there and tell them, ‘The kingdom of God has come near to you.’ 10 But when you enter a town and are not welcomed, go into its streets and say, 11 ‘Even the dust of your town we wipe from our feet as a warning to you. Yet be sure of this: The kingdom of God has come near.’ 12 I tell you, it will be more bearable on that day for Sodom than for that town.

13 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago, sitting in sackcloth and ashes. 14 But it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment than for you. 15 And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted to the heavens? No, you will go down to Hades.[b]

16 “Whoever listens to you listens to me; whoever rejects you rejects me; but whoever rejects me rejects him who sent me

Aijalon
Jul 20th 2014, 01:52 PM
A lamb which takes away sin? It has to refer to a sin offering. And that indicates death. John clearly knew that the One Who had come must die for the sins of the world.
It is not clear what John knew, obviously he doubted Jesus when he sent his disciples to double check on Jesus to ask if he really was who he said. But regardless, you're basing this on the idea that death alone atones for sin, which is not the case.

petrobb
Jul 20th 2014, 02:00 PM
It is not clear what John knew, obviously he doubted Jesus when he sent his disciples to double check on Jesus to ask if he really was who he said. But regardless, you're basing this on the idea that death alone atones for sin, which is not the case.

without the shedding of blood there is no remission for sin

John made clear what he knew. If we deny it to defend our position so much the worse for our position.

His later doubts did not cancel out his positive prophecies. He was chained in a prison and did not understand why Jesus was acting as He was.

Noeb
Jul 20th 2014, 02:39 PM
He preached the coming of the Kingly Rule of God calling on men to enter under God's Kingly Rule, He proclaimed that Jesus had come as a sin offering Who takes way the sin of the world. It seems like the Gospel to me, even though it was not in its fullest sense as Jesus had not yet died.An Israeli's idea of God ruling is different than a Christian. They were and are looking for a man to rule here on earth -now are you going to restore Israel? John was no different. God rules through man.

ctmarine5
Jul 20th 2014, 04:31 PM
obviously he doubted Jesus

You can say that about everyone in the New Testament at one point.John doubted right before his death...I'm sure he was just wanting a good little boost of reassurance from Jesus before he had his head cut off...can you blame him for that?

petrobb
Jul 20th 2014, 04:59 PM
An Israeli's idea of God ruling is different than a Christian. They were and are looking for a man to rule here on earth -now are you going to restore Israel? John was no different. God rules through man.

haven't you read 1 samuel and the Psalms. In 1 samuel God was ruling Israel. Thus the idea is very much God ruling from His throne over His people. And in the days of the second temple the Psalmists still saw God as reigning from Heaven (Psalms 93; 97; and especially 99). So you seem to have got how Israel thought a little wrong? :)

Perhaps because you have a hidden agenda? I love people who CLAIM to know how Israel thought. It usually means how they think :)

Indeed this demonstrates that God reigns DIRECT. He rules over the Kingly Rule of God (Heaven) a Kingly rule under which both John, Jesus and Paul saw Christians as coming. this makes your claim more than doubtful :)

Noeb
Jul 20th 2014, 07:53 PM
haven't you read 1 samuel and the Psalms. In 1 samuel God was ruling Israel. Thus the idea is very much God ruling from His throne over His people. And in the days of the second temple the Psalmists still saw God as reigning from Heaven (Psalms 93; 97; and especially 99). So you seem to have got how Israel thought a little wrong? :)

Perhaps because you have a hidden agenda? I love people who CLAIM to know how Israel thought. It usually means how they think :)

Indeed this demonstrates that God reigns DIRECT. He rules over the Kingly Rule of God (Heaven) a Kingly rule under which both John, Jesus and Paul saw Christians as coming. this makes your claim more than doubtful :)God did not reign in 1 Samuel without man. God reigns direct through and in man in every case. He has never, and never will, reign on earth without man. He will not go against his word and will. From the beginning in Genesis to the end of Revelation it is man that reigns with God, never God alone.

petrobb
Jul 20th 2014, 10:30 PM
God did not reign in 1 Samuel without man. God reigns direct through and in man in every case. He has never, and never will, reign on earth without man. He will not go against his word and will. From the beginning in Genesis to the end of Revelation it is man that reigns with God, never God alone.

'Listen to the voice of the people --- for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected Me from being king over them' (1 Sam 8.7).

Now who do I believe? Noeb or God? I think I'll plump for God :)

'thus the Lord became king in Jeshurun, when the heads of the people were gathered, all the tribes of Israel together (Deut 33.5).

The LORD reigns --- the LORD is great in Zion, He is exalted over all the peoples. --- Mighty king, you have established equity, you have executed justice and righteousness in Jacob -- pay homage at His footstool' (Psalm 99.1-5)

Sounds like a king to me.

No king rules without assistants, but it is the king who reigns, and here OT makes clear that at times God directly ruled over His people.

Noeb
Jul 21st 2014, 02:54 AM
'Listen to the voice of the people --- for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected Me from being king over them' (1 Sam 8.7).

Now who do I believe? Noeb or God? I think I'll plump for God :)

'thus the Lord became king in Jeshurun, when the heads of the people were gathered, all the tribes of Israel together (Deut 33.5).

The LORD reigns --- the LORD is great in Zion, He is exalted over all the peoples. --- Mighty king, you have established equity, you have executed justice and righteousness in Jacob -- pay homage at His footstool' (Psalm 99.1-5)

Sounds like a king to me.

No king rules without assistants, but it is the king who reigns, and here OT makes clear that at times God directly ruled over His people.So there were no laws, judges etc....? I didn't say God wasn't king. I said, if you would read and understand, that "God rules through man. God did not reign in 1 Samuel without man". The kingdom is not anarchy.

Gen 1:28 And God blessed them. And God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over every living thing that moves on the earth."

percho
Jul 21st 2014, 03:39 AM
And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will. Acts 13:22

I believe we in error quote Acts 13:22 as David's attitude toward God when I believe it to be God's attitude toward David.

Saul was chosen because of the heart of the people and David was chosen because of the heart of God.

But now thy kingdom shall not continue: the LORD hath sought him a man after his own heart, and the LORD hath commanded him to be captain over his people, because thou hast not kept that which the LORD commanded thee. 1 Sam 13:14
And the LORD said unto Samuel, How long wilt thou mourn for Saul, seeing I have rejected him from reigning over Israel? fill thine horn with oil, and go, I will send thee to Jesse the Bethlehemite: for I have provided me a king among his sons. 1 Sam 16:1

Then Solomon sat on the throne of the LORD as king instead of David his father, and prospered; and all Israel obeyed him. 1 Chro 29:23


I might add, I believe post No. 4 by Walls is closer to answering the OP.

The gospel of what kingdom? Was the first man Adam created to rule that kingdom and somehow failed? Personally I do not think so. I believe from the moment he was created he would have needed to be born again in order to rule that kingdom.

What is man? But we see not yet all things put under him. Heb 2:6,8

Hebrews 2:5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world (οἰκουμένη the inhabited earth) to come, whereof we speak.

Just what world, inhabited earth, is/was subjected to the angels?

However

has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He (God) has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; Hebrews 1:2 Who is this speaking of? 1 Cor 15:45 last part; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Was the last Adam a man, the Son of the God of Hebrews 1:1,2? Is he said to be: The firstborn from the dead Col 1:18? Is this that man? Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Can the rest of man be born from the dead as he was? What kingdom will they be born, into?

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end (of this age) come. Matt 24:14

petrobb
Jul 21st 2014, 04:27 PM
So there were no laws, judges etc....? I didn't say God wasn't king. I said, if you would read and understand, that "God rules through man. God did not reign in 1 Samuel without man". The kingdom is not anarchy.

Gen 1:28 And God blessed them. And God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over every living thing that moves on the earth."

yes God was ruling and Adam was His viceroy. Just as today Jesus Christ is ruling over the earth and we are His ministers.

As I said any king rules through His appointees. What God objected to was that the people wanted a king instead of having to trust God's servants. They wanted someone who would tell them what to do without constantly consulting God. First they got Saul. Catastrophe. Then they got David. Lesser catastrophes. Then they got Solomon. Major catastrophe. Kings ruling on earth were a failure.

But Jesus Christ reigns over the earth from Heaven now and will continue that reign into eternity. What He will never do is rule ON earth. If you agree with that you are Scriptural :)

episkopos
Jul 21st 2014, 04:40 PM
yes God was ruling and Adam was His viceroy. Just as today Jesus Christ is ruling over the earth and we are His ministers.

As I said any king rules through His appointees. What God objected to was that the people wanted a king instead of having to trust God's servants. They wanted someone who would tell them what to do without constantly consulting God. First they got Saul. Catastrophe. Then they got David. Lesser catastrophes. Then they got Solomon. Major catastrophe. Kings ruling on earth were a failure.

But Jesus Christ reigns over the earth from Heaven now and will continue that reign into eternity. What He will never do is rule ON earth. If you agree with that you are Scriptural :)

So you deny the second coming of Christ? Jesus Christ will rule with His saints during the millenium and in the new age.

petrobb
Jul 21st 2014, 06:19 PM
Contrary to popular contemporary Christian teaching today, the MAIN theme of the Bible is not Salvation. The main theme of scripture is "Who will get to rule the earth?"

Scripture never raises the question as to who will rule the earth. Its constant teaching is that GOD will rule the earth as Sovereign Lord ruling through His appointees who act under Him consulting Him at all stages.


Genesis 1:26-28 outlines God's plan with man, and this was some time before the fall of man.

The plan was that as God's minister Adam would have control over living things. It was not that he would reign on earth. God reigned over the earth. And whilst man had not sinned he consulted God daily.


Salvation is added to restore men to this former high calling, and the Man Jesus is designated to be the King over all men.


Jesus Christ was God's answer to man failing to rule properly. He would rule as God-man from Heaven over the earth as men responded to the Kingly Rule of GOD.

It was God Who ruled over men from Abraham to Samuel, with His ministers acting for Him and keeping in constant contact with Him The nations had rebelled against Him and taken for themselves kings. It was NOT His purpose that Israel should have a king. He was grieved when they rejected His rule and did so even though in His graciousness He chose their first king (1 Sam 8.7)


In Genesis 1:26-28 the word "subdue" is added, showing that some sort of rebellion is in progress, and throughout the narrative we find a certain Angel, who seems to be the original governor of the earth, trying to keep his position as "Prince of this world." The resulting battle, including the deception in the Garden of Eden, is all about this.


You certainly have a vivid imagination :) But nothing of what you say is found in Genesis 2-3. There is no mention of Satan there. Man's enemy was one of the beasts of the field getting above his position. It was a SNAKE. When Adam fell it was due to his failure to subdue the snake. As God said from then on a lot of his time would be taken up with subduing snakes. There is no suggestion that Satan was then 'prince of this world' Indeed his presence was not even acknowledged even if we read him into it

It is true that man had to subdue the animals so as to keep them under control. A man does it to his horse. But it did not indicate a battle going on. Nor did it indicate that Adam was king of the world. God was king of the world. As the Psalmists say 'the LORD reigns'.



When God starts to make His move to recover His Plan, he chooses one man, Abraham, and promises him and his seed the earth (Gen.12:7; Rom.4:13). This man and his seed are followed through the bible, first via Isaac as the nation of Israel, and then via the Israelite King Jesus Christ (Gal.3:29).


He chose a man, not appointed him to rule. And the end result was not the king of Israel but the king of the whole world. That was what David's greater Son was destined to be, 'prince of the king's of the earth'. And He is that today, ruling from Heaven. The fact that he would produce kings simply indicated his favored position. It did not indicate that God favored kings. Indeed when His people demanded a king He was deeply upset. And even though He 'chose' Saul, David and Solomon it was only because of His people's request. In both Saul and Solomon they soon discovered their error. And the end of such earthly kingship was disastrous. God's purpose was that His king rule from Heaven.



The bible ends a period of restoration of MEN after about 6'000 years when the designated King - Jesus, sets foot on earth again, defeats the kings and armies of the earth, and sets up His government. That is the gospel of the Kingdom.

there is nothing about this in Scripture. Once again you are reading into it. Jesus is now reigning from Heaven (Matt 28.18; Acts 2.30, 36; Rev 20.4) over 'the house of Jacob', God's redeemed people and will continue that reign in the everlasting kingdom on the new earth.




Because, the king is from heaven, and the rule, or Law is heavenly, it is called "the Kingdom of the Heavens"

That is because He rules from Heaven. But the correct name is The Kingly Rule of God. It continues the idea of God ruling from Heaven over His people.


. Because it all belongs to God, and its rule of law stems from God, it is conversely called "the Kingdom of God".

The Kingly Rule of God was its primary name. It describes God's continuing rule.


This was our Lord Jesus prayer in Matthew 6:9-10.

"9 ..... Our Father which art in heaven (the source is God and the rule is from heaven), Hallowed be thy name.
10 Thy (God's) kingdom come. Thy will (what goes in heaven - heavenly rule) be done in earth, as it is in heaven."

yes we are to pray that God's Kingly Rule will be established over men on earth by God in Heaven. Every time a person becomes a Christian he is transferred into the Kingly Rule of God (Col 1.13), We want God's rule to come by men and women submitting to him.


But a huge stumbling block lay in the way. Sin, and its result - death! How can fallen men rule the way a sinless God wants, and how can dead men rule? So a sovereign and intricate plan is devised because God is 100% righteous and EVERY sin had to be met with appropriate retribution. So, this same Jesus, born of a Virgin so that he is 100% man, but born of the Holy Spirit so that His lineage is not tainted by the sinful nature of Adam (or the man), walks this earth for 33 1/2 years under God's Law, and does not fail once.

well apart from the doubtful number (we do not know the length of His ministry) this is true.


Having been found sinless, He is deemed a natural substitute for other sinful men, and pays the high price of God's just retribution on every sin ever committed and ever to be committed.

If He had just been a man, however righteous, He could not have paid the price of sin for mankind. His substitution was sufficient because He was the infinite God as well as man.


A
s proof that all sin is put away, this Jesus is raised from the dead by God to make apparent that sins are fully dealt with, because if one sin still remained, this Jesus could not have been resurrected - because the wages of sin is death.

true


The complete work of this Jesus in putting men's sins away before a 100% righteous God instead of those men paying themselves, is called "the gospel of grace" (Act.20:24).

It is also called the Gospel of the Kingly Rule and the Everlasting Gospel. These three descriptions encompass what it is.


This Jesus now offers men this Substitution if they call upon His name with faith. If men do call upon the name of Jesus in faith that He is the Son of God and that He died for their sins, they are STARTED on a path of recovery to be KINGS of this earth.


That comes from your interpretation of Scriptures that are better interpreted in another way. God's aim for His people was that they reign on earth NOW under His Kingly Rule (Rom 5.17; Rev 5.10) and that they then reign in Heaven with Him once they have died (Rev 20.4)


Thus, the "gospel of grace" is needed so that the "gospel of the Kingdom" (who rules the earth) can be realized.

The Good Newsl of the Kingly Rule is that we now can enter that Kingly Rule by believing in Jesus. It has nothing to do with our ruling the earth in the future in a supposed earthly kingdom which ends in total failure and has to be rescued by God


The Apostles and disciples of Jesus taught the "gospel of grace" AS IT IS NEEDED FOR THE GOSPEL OF THE KINGDOM - THE FINAL RESULT OF THE SAVING OF MEN FOR RULING THE EARTH.

The Good News of the grace of God is simply a description of how men come under the Kingly Rule of God NOW (Col 1.13)..

petrobb
Jul 21st 2014, 06:28 PM
So you deny the second coming of Christ? Jesus Christ will rule with His saints during the millenium and in the new age.

His second coming is in order to take His people to Himself and judge and destroy the world. He is already ruling from Heaven during 'the Millennium' and if you look at descriptions of His second coming there is not one indication that He actually touches down on earth.

Noeb
Jul 22nd 2014, 12:48 AM
But Jesus Christ reigns over the earth from Heaven now and will continue that reign into eternity. What He will never do is rule ON earth. If you agree with that you are Scriptural :)Well, the new city comes to earth, and while some believe it hovers just above earth, that's close enough for me and ON earth. Based on what I've read of you, you may disagree entirely, but no matter.

percho
Jul 22nd 2014, 05:37 AM
How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will? For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak. But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him? Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him. From Hebrews 2:3-8

Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel. Mark 1:14,15 which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, From Heb 2:3 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. Matt 24:14 The end of what? The age spoken of in verse 3 >Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world (age)?

Does the end of the age and the coming of the Lord have anything to do with the world to come which is relative to the great salvation which is relative to the gospel of the kingdom of God?

The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Until I make thy foes thy footstool. Psalms 110:1

What did the LORD, God who Jesus called my Father, mean when he told my Lord, the Son of the Father God the above? Is his coming and the end of the age relative to that statement by the LORD, God the Father?

I might add that: We do see Jesus crowned with glory and honor sitting on the right hand of his Father. Jesus the Son of the living God who has inherited all things yet still sitting on the right hand of God his Father. Until. Until what? When?

And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him. Daniel 7:27

IMHO Jesus has inherited all things but the rest of, what is man, has not yet inherited and do not yet rule with him.

percho
Jul 22nd 2014, 05:54 AM
His second coming is in order to take His people to Himself and judge and destroy the world. He is already ruling from Heaven during 'the Millennium' and if you look at descriptions of His second coming there is not one indication that He actually touches down on earth.

And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one. Zech 14:4,9

Don't know if this is 2nd 3rd 4th or 5th but he will be here and it will likely be this day; And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. Rev 11:15,18

petrobb
Jul 23rd 2014, 01:12 PM
Well, the new city comes to earth, and while some believe it hovers just above earth, that's close enough for me and ON earth. Based on what I've read of you, you may disagree entirely, but no matter.

it does not come to this physical earth. it comes to the new spiritual earth which is suited as the dwelling place of the Father and the Son and for the resurrected spiritual bodies of the saints.

This earth will have been destroyed by fire.

petrobb
Jul 23rd 2014, 01:14 PM
And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one. Zech 14:4,9

Don't know if this is 2nd 3rd 4th or 5th but he will be here and it will likely be this day; And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. Rev 11:15,18

The only problem you have is that it is YHWH Whose feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, not Jesus or even the Messiah. The point was that God would visit the earth in judgment and salvation. We cannot just read Jesus for YHWH to suit ourselves

compare 'God came from Teman and the Holy One from Mount Paran'.(Hab 3.3) Here is another example where YHWH is seen as coming from a mountain on which He had presumably been standing. .Compare Deut 33.1-5.

I suggest it is wrong to read Jesus in there, certainly not as His second coming. In each case it is simply vivid metaphor.

And of course Zech 14 is describing the aftermath of 70 AD and the destruction of Jerusalem.

petrobb
Jul 23rd 2014, 01:29 PM
How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will? For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak. But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him? Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him. From Hebrews 2:3-8

Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel. Mark 1:14,15 which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, From Heb 2:3 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. Matt 24:14 The end of what? The age spoken of in verse 3 >Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world (age)?

Does the end of the age and the coming of the Lord have anything to do with the world to come which is relative to the great salvation which is relative to the gospel of the kingdom of God?

The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Until I make thy foes thy footstool. Psalms 110:1

What did the LORD, God who Jesus called my Father, mean when he told my Lord, the Son of the Father God the above? Is his coming and the end of the age relative to that statement by the LORD, God the Father?

I might add that: We do see Jesus crowned with glory and honor sitting on the right hand of his Father. Jesus the Son of the living God who has inherited all things yet still sitting on the right hand of God his Father. Until. Until what? When?

And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him. Daniel 7:27

IMHO Jesus has inherited all things but the rest of, what is man, has not yet inherited and do not yet rule with him.

well we do rule with Him (Rom 5.17; 2 Tim 2.12 (all the parallels are contemporary); Rev 5.10; 20.4). But you will note that in Daniel the ruling is over the everlasting kingdom on the new spiritual earth not on this earth

Noeb
Jul 23rd 2014, 02:49 PM
it does not come to this physical earth. it comes to the new spiritual earth which is suited as the dwelling place of the Father and the Son and for the resurrected spiritual bodies of the saints.

This earth will have been destroyed by fire.
Spiritual earth? Quite an imagination you have there. Earth is earth. It has been destroyed before and is still here.

Walls
Jul 23rd 2014, 04:18 PM
Spiritual earth? Quite an imagination you have there. Earth is earth. It has been destroyed before and is still here.

Well said - and not to forget these;

Psalm 78:69; "And he built his sanctuary like high palaces, like the earth which he hath established for ever."

Psalm 104:5; "Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever."

Psalm 119:90; "Thy faithfulness is unto all generations: thou hast established the earth, and it abideth."

1st Chronicles 16:30; "Fear before him, all the earth: the world also shall be stable, that it be not moved."

Psalm 93:1; "The Lord reigneth, he is clothed with majesty; the Lord is clothed with strength, wherewith he hath girded himself: the world also is stablished, that it cannot be moved."

Psalm 96:10; Say among the heathen that the Lord reigneth: the world also shall be established that it shall not be moved: he shall judge the people righteously.

petrobb
Jul 23rd 2014, 05:34 PM
Spiritual earth? Quite an imagination you have there. Earth is earth. It has been destroyed before and is still here.

Never by God because His purposes for a physical earth have then come to an end. What use will saints with spiritual resurrected bodies have for a physical earth?. Still just as Israel in the Old Testament had to be taught by the prophets in literal terms because they were not capable of understanding New Testament concepts, I suppose that some modern Christians are in the same way incapable of understanding some New Testament concepts and therefore find refuge in Old Testament literalism. I am beginning to realise that some American Christians have difficulty with comprehending certain spiritual concepts and therefore have to cling to the idea of a physical earth.. They will have a pleasant surprise when they discover the reality of a spiritual new earth where things are incorruptible and unchanging.

petrobb
Jul 23rd 2014, 05:39 PM
Well said - and not to forget these;

Psalm 78:69; "And he built his sanctuary like high palaces, like the earth which he hath established for ever."

Psalm 104:5; "Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever."

Psalm 119:90; "Thy faithfulness is unto all generations: thou hast established the earth, and it abideth."

1st Chronicles 16:30; "Fear before him, all the earth: the world also shall be stable, that it be not moved."

Psalm 93:1; "The Lord reigneth, he is clothed with majesty; the Lord is clothed with strength, wherewith he hath girded himself: the world also is stablished, that it cannot be moved."

Psalm 96:10; Say among the heathen that the Lord reigneth: the world also shall be established that it shall not be moved: he shall judge the people righteously.

funny that these ideas are missing in the New Testament. :) Maybe Jesus saw them differently from you?

heaven and earth will PASS AWAY but My words will NOT pass away.

the hebrew word translated 'for ever' actually means 'into the distant future' that distant future is now approaching

divaD
Jul 23rd 2014, 08:17 PM
funny that these ideas are missing in the New Testament. :) Maybe Jesus saw them differently from you?

heaven and earth will PASS AWAY but My words will NOT pass away.

the hebrew word translated 'for ever' actually means 'into the distant future' that distant future is now approaching



Why do you insist on interpreting the Bible via the NT only? Is not the OT holy writ as well? If what you say is literally true, then it is contradicting the passages Walls and others brought up.

petrobb
Jul 23rd 2014, 09:36 PM
Why do you insist on interpreting the Bible via the NT only? Is not the OT holy writ as well? If what you say is literally true, then it is contradicting the passages Walls and others brought up.

no, it is rather contradicting your interpretation of them. what they said was that the world was not unstable but would last some good time, indeed as long as God wanted it to last.

but nothing physical will last for ever. i have yet to work out how the world will survive rev 8.12. or is that one you don't take literally?l

but i agree i take notice of the NT and how Jesus and Paul and Peter and Hebrews interpreted these things. it seems to me they are more reliable than premills etc :)

Noeb
Jul 24th 2014, 12:24 AM
Never by God because His purposes for a physical earth have then come to an end.Says what scripture?

Here's another.....
Isa 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.



What use will saints with spiritual resurrected bodies have for a physical earth?.The resurrected Christ was flesh and bone and he ate food. There's a lot of use for the physical. Without a physical earth what good is any of this?



Still just as Israel in the Old Testament had to be taught by the prophets in literal terms because they were not capable of understanding New Testament concepts, I suppose that some modern Christians are in the same way incapable of understanding some New Testament concepts and therefore find refuge in Old Testament literalism. I am beginning to realise that some American Christians have difficulty with comprehending certain spiritual concepts and therefore have to cling to the idea of a physical earth.. They will have a pleasant surprise when they discover the reality of a spiritual new earth where things are incorruptible and unchanging.Or maybe you have invented doctrine without scripture. Seasons are a beautiful thing. The cycles of life are a beautiful thing. I like flowers and trees changing, don't you? What you describe could be kinda boring. Do you think we are all gonna sit around sipping water, eating fruit, playing harps and staring and all the same stuff or something?

divaD
Jul 24th 2014, 01:14 AM
no, it is rather contradicting your interpretation of them. what they said was that the world was not unstable but would last some good time, indeed as long as God wanted it to last.

but nothing physical will last for ever. i have yet to work out how the world will survive rev 8.12. or is that one you don't take literally?l

but i agree i take notice of the NT and how Jesus and Paul and Peter and Hebrews interpreted these things. it seems to me they are more reliable than premills etc :)

Ecclesiastes 1:4 One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever.

This is how this same phrase "abideth for ever" is used elsewhere.

Psalms 125:1 <<A Song of degrees.>> They that trust in the LORD shall be as mount Zion, which cannot be removed, but abideth for ever.


John 12:34 The people answered him, We have heard out of the law that Christ abideth for ever: and how sayest thou, The Son of man must be lifted up? who is this Son of man?

1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

1 John 2:17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.


Clearly then, abideth forever, the sense is literally meaning without end. With that in mind, does or does not Ecclesiastes 1:4 clearly state that the earth abideth for ever? If it doesn't, then maybe in all of these other passages it doesn't either. We both know that couldn't be correct.


BTW, even if I gave up Premil eventually, which one day I may, I still wouldn't understand Ecclesiastes 1:4 any differently than I already do. I literally believe what it says, the same way I literally believe what those other passages say in regards to abiding for ever..it literally means to abide without end.

divaD
Jul 24th 2014, 01:23 AM
but nothing physical will last for ever. i have yet to work out how the world will survive rev 8.12. or is that one you don't take literally?l



I fail to see what Rev 8.12 has to do with anything. That is during the 4th trumpet. It looks like to me then, by the time the 5th, 6th, and 7th trumpet sounds, the earth is still here. And besides, there's also Rev 19. Looks like there are still plenty of folks alive when Christ returns to confront them.

Walls
Jul 24th 2014, 07:20 AM
It is a serious matter to insist that God's plan with the earth and man will not be consummated. Petrobb insists that;

the earth will be destroyed
man only has a "spirit" body and thus is useless for the original intended purpose
that the Old Testament saints had to be told lies to help them understand scripture
the New Testament teaches different to the Old Testament

The sad thing is that while each has the right, and ability, to give their opinion, and many on this Forum are not swayed such "winds" of doctrine, there are many new, and young Christians who can be sorely influenced by such doctrines. The Judgment Seat of that fateful day will be something to behold - when Christians are called to account whether they stumbled a weak one or not, is brought to light for all to see.

Let us be settled that the Old Testament is in complete harmony with the New concerning ALL things and specifically the earth.

In Genesis 1:26-28, God declares His purpose for the new creature, man. It is to have New Governor of the earth, and this Governor is to be in the image and likeness of God. That the earth needed a change is indicated by the word "subdue" in these verses. This first Sabbath is crucial to God's well-being, for He makes it an "everlasting Covenant". That is, God resting while man does His work is a strong desire in our gracious Father. Note the sadness of our Lord Jesus as He must report that God has never had His Sabbath. In John 5:9 we find our Lord healing an "impotent" man on the Sabbath. And when our Lord is questioned by the Pharisees He answers in 5:17;

"But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work."

Because of the fall of man, the man could not subdue and rule the earth and was "impotent" (v.3) to do so. So God was STILL working and had not yet enjoyed a Sabbath Rest. The word "hitherto" means from the beginning until now. But Hebrews Chapters 3 and 4 assure us that there "remains a Sabbath" for God's people. That is, the original purpose of man subduing and ruling the earth while God rests WILL BE REALIZED. Let us briefly (for long posts are not read) investigate;

the so-called "destruction" of the earth
man's destiny as connected with the earth
man's body after resurrection

(1)
Petrobb will have you believe that the Old Testament tells of an earth that remains "forever" (the verses are published above), but which DOES NOT REMAIN FOREVER in the New Testament. He will cite verses like Isaiah 24:4-6, 51:6 and Revelation 20:11 (two of which already contradict his theory for they come from the Old Testament). What shall we say? Is there a contradiction in the bible? Perish the thought! There are scriptures to zoom us in and explain Isaiah 24:4-6, 51:6 and Revelation 20:11. They are;

Psalm 102:25-26; "Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands. They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed:"

Hebrews 1:10-12; "And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail."

A "Garment" in parable is works (Ps.73:6; Isa.61:10; Rev.19:8 etc.). And a "Garment" is worn over, or on the surface of that which is clothed. The "Garment" of the earth is what happened, or, what works occurred, on its surface. First the rebellion of the previous Governor of this earth, called, "Prince of this world" (Jn.14:30) laid it waste (Isa.14:17; Ezk.28:18). Then later, man's sins laid the earth waste as murder, idolatry and sexual offense "curse" and "defile the land" (e.g. Gen.3:17, 4:11; Lev.18:25). That is, the world as we know it has a history of evil works and lies cursed and defiled. And when God caused the Great Flood of Noah's time, He "washed" the earth of its previous works. That is why this flood is likened to Baptism in 1st Peter 3:20-21;

"20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:"

In Romans Chapter 6 we a "killed" by water in Baptism (Rom.6:1-6). But in 1st Peter 3:20-21 Noah and family are SAVED BY water. Why? Because they could emerge from the Ark to an earth PURGED of its old works. They could have a new beginning. BUT IT WAS STILL THE SAME EARTH. So Peter continues to tell us in 2nd Peter 2:4-6 and 3:5-7;

"For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;"

"For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men."

That is, the earth's works, or "Garment" was destroyed by water, and will be again destroyed by fire. The world and its system and its works will be PURGED and forgotten at the White Throne and a new set of WORKS - RIGHTEOUSNESS, will be the norm on that earth AFTER ITS PURGING. 2nd Peter 3:13 says of this coming world;

"Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness."

(2)
Starting from Genesis 1:26-28, through Genesis 12 when God promises a section of EARTH to Abraham and his descendants, through Psalm 8 to Matthew 5:5 to Luke 19:12-19, through Hebrews 2:5-8 to Revelation 2:27, 12:5 and 19:15, GOD HAS NEVER CHANGED HIS PLAN WITH THE EARTH. The bible ends with a heavenly city "coming down to the New Earth" (Rev.21:2) for "REIGNING" (Rev.22:5). The Greek word for "NEW EARTH" is literally "RENEWED" or "MADE PRISTINE". God is not to be thwarted. He had a plan, and NO ONE can move Him from a relentless realization of this plan. He is the ALMIGHTY. Man is made from the earth, nourished by the earth and FOR RULING THE EARTH - and he does in the end.

(3)
Petrobb will have you believe that a man is resurrection is a "spirit being". He will quote 1st Corinthians 15:44;

"It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body."

But this verse does not say a man in resurrection has a "spirit" body which "hovers over the earth" in the future. The word "Spiritual" means "having its origin in the Holy Spirit". The first body of man is made from dust. So he is called ADAM. The second body, that of Eve, has its ORIGIN in Adam, the man. So she is called "WO-MAN". The third body of man comes from the seed of the man and the seed of a woman and has its ORIGIN IN THE WOMB. But, in order to achieve the high and difficult task of "subduing" and "ruling" the "Prince of this world", who is an angel, and made higher than man (Ps.8:5; Heb.2:7-9), man needed a SECOND BIRTH. He needed to be "ENLIVENED" by the Holy Spirit. And John 3:6 tells us that ONLY the SPIRIT of man is enlivened by this RE-birth. Then later, through a process of eating Christ, the man has Christ "FORMED" in him and is TRANSFORMED into the image of Christ (Jn.6:53-56; 2nd Cor.3:18; Gal.4:19) - that is, in his SOUL. And our Lord Jesus informed us that this eating is by Him (1) going away and (2) being replaced by the Holy Spirit and that His words thus become "SPIRIT AND LIFE" (Jn.6:62-63).

Then, after death, or at the Lord Jesus' Second Coming, the believer will receive a new body. Like the New Earth above, it is the same body, but NOT FORMED IN THE WOMB, but in heaven (2nd Cor.5:1-4) by the Holy Spirit. When our Lord Jesus died He was raised by the Holy Spirit (Rom.8:11) but in the same body (with the wounds of the nails and spear). Then, our Lord Jesus, with the resurrection life of the Holy Spirit IN HIM, "BECAME THE LIFE-GIVING SPIRIT" within the context of resurrection (1st Cor.15:45).

So the whole process of getting man to be where God wants him is realized and effected BY THE HOLY SPIRIT. Thus, man remains a man, but the restoration and empowering process by the Holy Spirit makes man "SPIRITUAL". Not a "spirit-being", but a MAN who has his origin by and through the Holy Spirit. But he is still a man. Our Lord Jesus confirmed this in Luke 24:39 when He says to His disciples;

"Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have."

Our Lord Jesus, who had the wounds of Golgotha, and who ate food and was to be touched and handled, was 100% physical man, but had at this point, His ORIGIN in the HOLY SPIRIT.

To summarize;

God has NEVER changed nor deviated from His original purpose. There is (1) no scripture that reports this, and (2) to attribute such a defeat to God at Satan's hands is blasphemy.
The earth stays the earth. It might be purged one, two or three times (if you count Genesis 1:2), but it stays the original earth and is not "destroyed" in the sense of annihilation. It is "RENEWED". Its old works, or "Garment", is purged and burned away, but it itself remains forever.
Man is man and remains 100% man, even in resurrection. It is just that he undergoes a RENEWING process in all three of his parts - Spirit, Soul and Body BY THE HOLY SPIRIT to make him capable of achieving God plan with man.

In the end it was a long post - but I do not apologize.

TheDivineWatermark
Jul 24th 2014, 09:26 AM
that the Old Testament saints had to be told lies to help them understand scripture
the New Testament teaches different to the Old Testament


[...]

Let us be settled that the Old Testament is in complete harmony with the New concerning ALL things [...]

Agreeing with you here, and wanting to add a couple of links to this ^ point:

"Forty Reasons For Not Reinterpreting the Old Testament By the New" by Paul Martin Henebury

[many thoughtful points]

http://drreluctant.wordpress.com/2012/01/13/forty-reasons-for-not-reinterpreting-the-old-testament-by-the-new-the-first-twenty/ [the first twenty]

http://drreluctant.wordpress.com/2012/01/18/forty-reasons-for-not-reinterpreting-the-old-testament-by-the-new-the-last-twenty/ [the last twenty]

petrobb
Jul 24th 2014, 09:43 AM
Ecclesiastes 1:4 One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever.

This is how this same phrase "abideth for ever" is used elsewhere.

Psalms 125:1 <<A Song of degrees.>> They that trust in the LORD shall be as mount Zion, which cannot be removed, but abideth for ever.


John 12:34 The people answered him, We have heard out of the law that Christ abideth for ever: and how sayest thou, The Son of man must be lifted up? who is this Son of man?

1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

1 John 2:17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.


Clearly then, abideth forever, the sense is literally meaning without end. With that in mind, does or does not Ecclesiastes 1:4 clearly state that the earth abideth for ever? If it doesn't, then maybe in all of these other passages it doesn't either. We both know that couldn't be correct.


BTW, even if I gave up Premil eventually, which one day I may, I still wouldn't understand Ecclesiastes 1:4 any differently than I already do. I literally believe what it says, the same way I literally believe what those other passages say in regards to abiding for ever..it literally means to abide without end.

as the NT is in Greek and the OT is in Hebrew you cannot just compare phrases between the two. They are simply made to agree by translators. They are not the same phrase.

Strictly translated Eccles 1.4 would be 'One generation passes away, and another generation comes: but the earth abides into the distant future.' The israelites had no concept of everlastingness. They were farmers not philosophers.

God said to David, 'now therefore the sword will NEVER depart from your house because you have despised Me' (2 Sam 12.10). Do you think that will be fulfilled?

God said of the Canaanites, 'NEVER seek their peace and prosperity'. Do you think that should be observed?

In Deut 15.17 the man was to be 'your bondservant forever.' Seems unlikely don't you think?

petrobb
Jul 24th 2014, 09:45 AM
I fail to see what Rev 8.12 has to do with anything. That is during the 4th trumpet. It looks like to me then, by the time the 5th, 6th, and 7th trumpet sounds, the earth is still here. And besides, there's also Rev 19. Looks like there are still plenty of folks alive when Christ returns to confront them.

Do you really think that the world could survive if that happened?

so you do't take it literally? what I love on here is the way everything has to be taken 'literally' until it is inconvenient.

petrobb
Jul 24th 2014, 11:16 AM
It is a serious matter to insist that God's plan with the earth and man will not be consummated. Petrobb insists that;
the earth will be destroyed

I didn't insist on it. God did, and Jesus did :)



man only has a "spirit" body and thus is useless for the original intended purpose

I said will have a spiritual body. It will be perfectly suitable for God's purposes. Just not for your odd idea about its original purpose.



that the Old Testament saints had to be told lies to help them understand scripture

that is simply untrue. when a physicist explains his theories in simple language saying what is not strictly true in order to help people understand we do not say he is lying. That is quite funny from someone who keeps talking about God as a liar if He doesn't do what you think He should. Talking about having to give account I wouldn't want to be in your shoes.



the New Testament teaches different to the Old Testament

well it does. it reveals what would have been beyond the conception of OT people and brings out the genuine meaning of the OT.


The sad thing is that while each has the right, and ability, to give their opinion, and many on this Forum are not swayed such "winds" of doctrine, there are many new, and young Christians who can be sorely influenced by such doctrines.


you make me cry to think how you are misleading them. but if you get yourself sorted out you will be able to put it right.


The Judgment Seat of that fateful day will be something to behold - when Christians are called to account whether they stumbled a weak one or not, is brought to light for all to see.


Yes, think about it.


Let us be settled that the Old Testament is in complete harmony with the New concerning ALL things and specifically the earth.

It is in harmony when rightly interpreted, but it reveals much more than Old Testament readers could even have conceived. YOU hide that from people with your odd interpretations.

The Old is in the New revealed, the New is in the Old concealed.


In Genesis 1:26-28, God declares His purpose for the new creature, man. It is to have New Governor of the earth, and this Governor is to be in the image and likeness of God.

I would be interested to see where it says 'new governor of the earth'. God was the Governor of the earth. Adam was given responsibility to train living creatures.



That the earth needed a change is indicated by the word "subdue"

Are you suggesting that creation was NOT very good, as God said it was? Are you calling God a liar? The living creatures needed training and guiding as we would subdue a wild colt.


This first Sabbath is crucial to God's well-being, for He makes it an "everlasting Covenant".


There is no mention of the Sabbath. The Sabbath is first mentioned in Exodus 16. He could not therefore have made it an everlasting covenant here. You are reading into Scripture.


That is, God resting while man does His work is a strong desire in our gracious Father.


I thought the Sabbath was telling MAN to rest on the Sabbath.?

Do you really think God was relaxing whilst man worked for Him.? what a strange idea you have of God



Note the sadness of our Lord Jesus as He must report that God has never had His Sabbath. In John 5:9 we find our Lord healing an "impotent" man on the Sabbath. And when our Lord is questioned by the Pharisees He answers in 5:17;

"But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work."


now that does make me laugh. Do you really think that Jesus meant that God had not had a chance to rest? How quaint.

He was speaking positively. 'God is at work in His mercy and compassion and I work with Him.' Any sadness was due to the unbelief of the Scribes and Pharisees.


Because of the fall of man, the man could not subdue and rule the earth and was "impotent" (v.3) to do so. So God was STILL working and had not yet enjoyed a Sabbath Rest.


I can hardly believe what I am seeing. Do you really think that God is struggling to 'subdue' living creatures? YOU HAVE A STRANGE VIEW OF GOD'S POWER.

And God did have His Sabbath rest. IT SAYS SO.

More to follow.

divaD
Jul 24th 2014, 04:53 PM
as the NT is in Greek and the OT is in Hebrew you cannot just compare phrases between the two. They are simply made to agree by translators. They are not the same phrase.

Strictly translated Eccles 1.4 would be 'One generation passes away, and another generation comes: but the earth abides into the distant future.' The israelites had no concept of everlastingness. They were farmers not philosophers.

God said to David, 'now therefore the sword will NEVER depart from your house because you have despised Me' (2 Sam 12.10). Do you think that will be fulfilled?

God said of the Canaanites, 'NEVER seek their peace and prosperity'. Do you think that should be observed?

In Deut 15.17 the man was to be 'your bondservant forever.' Seems unlikely don't you think?


All I was doing was comparing the senses. In both the OT and NT, to abide forever, the sense is literally without end. As to these other passages you supplied, I get that. It's not the same concept. Let's leave the NT out of it then. What about Psalms 125:1 then? They that trust in the LORD, don't they ultimately get resurrected and then live forever, which then means they will literally abide forever? Do you agree with that verse or not? Because if mount Zion can be removed, which means it literally doesn't abide forever, then neither can those that trust in the LORD abide forever either, which would be pure nonsense if true.

Psalms 125:1 *<<A Song of degrees.>> They that trust in the LORD shall be as mount Zion, which cannot be removed, but abideth for ever.

Then we have this which needs to be understood in the same sense as Psalms 125:1, in regards to abideth for ever.

Ecclesiastes 1:4 *One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever.

Walls
Jul 25th 2014, 07:03 AM
as the NT is in Greek and the OT is in Hebrew you cannot just compare phrases between the two. They are simply made to agree by translators. They are not the same phrase.

Strictly translated Eccles 1.4 would be 'One generation passes away, and another generation comes: but the earth abides into the distant future.' The israelites had no concept of everlastingness. They were farmers not philosophers.

God said to David, 'now therefore the sword will NEVER depart from your house because you have despised Me' (2 Sam 12.10). Do you think that will be fulfilled?

God said of the Canaanites, 'NEVER seek their peace and prosperity'. Do you think that should be observed?

In Deut 15.17 the man was to be 'your bondservant forever.' Seems unlikely don't you think?

It is truly amazing that such an attitude to God's Word can exist. Here we have a book so intricate, so well written, so revealing, so high, so complicated that men have studied it more than any other book, over three and a half Millennia, and still not come to the bottom of the matter, and a servant of the Lord, petrobb, can say that it is written for "farmers" (as opposed to intellectuals). But what does scripture say? Acts 7:22:-

"And Moses was learned in all the wisdom of the Egyptians, and was mighty in words and in deeds."

And the Egyptians built the Pyramids, the which still boggle the mind of the modern engineer.

And further, it is not as if Ecclesiastes 1:4 was the only verse that showed the earth remaining forever. To uphold a doctrine of the earth being annihilated, one has to overturn a multitude of verses, AND the eternal purpose of God which says that man is to rule the earth, PLUS the fact that the earth, having being made by Jesus and FOR Him (Col.1:16), IS HIS POSSESSION! Who will take it from Him? God the Father? Shall not "... The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever" (Revelation 11:15)

And Isaiah 66:22 tells us,

"For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain."

I have underlined the word "make" because the Hebrew word is "asah", and this word means "to make from existing materials". It is in contrast to the word "bara", used in Genesis 1:1 when God CREATED (out of nothing) the heavens and the earth. That means that the New Heavens and New Earth are made from that which now exists, confirming the Greek word "New" in Revelation 21:1, which means "RENEWED" or "MADE PRISTINE".

And again, in 2 Peter 2:5;

"And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;"

We know that the "old" world is not in contrast to a newly created earth. It is in contrast to a set of circumstances on the earth then!

The whole bible is replete with such evidences of the earth "remaining", and God's Kingdom being eternal, and you would teach otherwise?

TheDivineWatermark
Jul 25th 2014, 03:18 PM
Yes... (oh, and like many today think that Noah would have been too ignorant to have built an ark of such magnitude, since no one in OUR day has been able to, using the same materials, they say. :D But that's beside the point, I know... Your comments just reminded me of that... :) ) ...


Anyway, I came across this message and like much of what is said here:

"Jesus' Kingdom Teaching: John" -- Dr Paul Martin Henebury

http://www.telosministries.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/6.KingdomTeachings3.mp3


As a side note, at one point he uses the phrase "proleptic -- 'YOU'"... the "you" [John 14:1-3] being future as well. But that's for a different thread. :D

(found a definition of "proleptic teaching" -- http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=952137 "Prolepsis is about anticipation." I admit, I've never heard this word. :) )



Adding this: Since the thread is about Matthew :) , I'll post this one too:

"Jesus' Kingdom Teaching: Matthew" -- Dr Paul Martin Henebury

http://www.telosministries.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/7.KingdomTeachings4.mp3



As to the OP question, I believe "this gospel of the kingdom" (Matthew 24:14) is what will be preached during the 7-yr tribulation period (I don't believe "the Church which is His body" will be present on the earth at that time) leading up to the promised/prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom, which will commence after His Second Coming to the earth.

petrobb
Jul 25th 2014, 03:29 PM
Ecclesiastes 1:4 One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever.

This is how this same phrase "abideth for ever" is used elsewhere.

Psalms 125:1 <<A Song of degrees.>> They that trust in the LORD shall be as mount Zion, which cannot be removed, but abideth for ever.


John 12:34 The people answered him, We have heard out of the law that Christ abideth for ever: and how sayest thou, The Son of man must be lifted up? who is this Son of man?

1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

1 John 2:17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.


Clearly then, abideth forever, the sense is literally meaning without end. With that in mind, does or does not Ecclesiastes 1:4 clearly state that the earth abideth for ever? If it doesn't, then maybe in all of these other passages it doesn't either. We both know that couldn't be correct.


BTW, even if I gave up Premil eventually, which one day I may, I still wouldn't understand Ecclesiastes 1:4 any differently than I already do. I literally believe what it says, the same way I literally believe what those other passages say in regards to abiding for ever..it literally means to abide without end.

Let us look at examples of Forever.

‘The sin of Judah is written with a pen of iron --- You even of yourself will discontinue from your heritage that I gave you, and I will cause you to serve your enemies in a land which you do not know, for you have kindled a fire in my anger which will burn for ever’ (Jer 17.4).

How does this tie in with restoration?

To David after his adultery and murder of Uriah – ‘the sword will NEVER depart from your house’ (2 Sam .12.10).

Not a good outlook for the Messiah?

Because My people have forgotten me -- to make their land an astonishment and a hissing for ever, everyone who passes thereby will be astonished, and shake his head (Jer 18.15-16).

How does this tie in with the restoration of Israel?

‘All these curses will come on you, and will pursue you and overtake you until you be destroyed, because you did not listen to the voice of the Lord your God, to keeps His commandments and His statutes which He commanded you, and they will be on you as a sign and a wonder for ever’ (Deut 28.45-46).

More problems for a belief in the restoration of Israel?

To the house of Jacob – ‘The women of My people you cast out from their pleasant houses, from their young children you take away My glory for ever’ (Micah 2.9)

Not much hope for Judah then?

‘The skin disease of Naaman shall cleave to you and to your sons for ever’ (2 Kings 5.27).

Even in the heavenly kingdom or in Hell?

Of Ammonites and Moabites – ‘you shall not seek their peace or their prosperity for ever’ (Deuteronomy 23.6).

Are we still to see them as unforgivable?

Of Canaanites – ‘you shall not seek their peace or their prosperity’ (Ezra 9.12).

So that’s now three unforgivable nations. We will have to alter the Lord’s prayer.

‘So Joshua burned Ai and made it a heap of ruins for ever’ (Joshua 8.28). But later its site was built on.’
‘These stones will be to the people of Israel a memorial for ever’ (Joshua 4.7).

But they have been long forgotten and cannot be identified.

I hope you will also believe these verses are for ever with the same intensity?

petrobb
Jul 25th 2014, 03:45 PM
"But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work."

Because of the fall of man, the man could not subdue and rule the earth and was "impotent" (v.3) to do so.


Perhaps you have not noticed but man now has all living creatures subdued, at least as far as he wants to. Indeed he has to protect them from his fellow-man.


So God was STILL working and had not yet enjoyed a Sabbath Rest.

yu have completely misunderstood the words of Jesus. Gen 2.1-3 makes clear that God did enjoy the seventh day as a day of not working. What Jesus was talking about was God's positive working on behalf of mankind.


The word "hitherto" means from the beginning until now.

It means 'until now' but it does not necessarily signify 'from the beginning. Indeed Gen 2.1-3 makes clear that He did cease working on the seventh day. 'Until now' may refer to the commencement of Jesus' ministry. That is what the context has in mind.


But Hebrews Chapters 3 and 4 assure us that there "remains a Sabbath" for God's people. That is, the original purpose of man subduing and ruling the earth while God rests WILL BE REALIZED.



But it has been realised. All living creatures are under man's control. The 'rest' that is for God's people has nothing to do with subduing animals. It is the 'rest into which Christians now enter when they come to Christ and 'find rest unto their souls' (Matt 11.28-30).

petrobb
Jul 25th 2014, 04:22 PM
Let us briefly (for long posts are not read) investigate;

I love your idea of brief lol. But don't worry I have split it up for you. :)



(1)
Petrobb will have you believe that the Old Testament tells of an earth that remains "forever" (the verses are published above), but which DOES NOT REMAIN FOREVER in the New Testament.

No I do not see an earth that remains for ever in the Old Testament, I see one that will survive 'long into the future'. But you are quite right in seeing that the New Testament says that the earth will not remain for ever.

For the use of the word translated 'for ever' in the OT consider the following verses which ALL use the same word.

‘The sin of Judah is written with a pen of iron --- You even of yourself will discontinue from your heritage that I gave you, and I will cause you to serve your enemies in a land which you do not know, for you have kindled a fire in my anger which will burn for ever’ (Jer 17.4).

Here we learn that God's anger will burn 'for ever' against Judah.

To David after his adultery and murder of Uriah – ‘the sword will NEVER depart from your house’ (2 Sam .12.10).

Here we learn that David's house, including the Messiah (if it literally means for ever) will constantly be subjected to death by the swod.

For My people have forgotten me -- to make their land an astonishment and a hissing for ever, everyone who passes thereby will be astonished, and shake his head (Jer 18.15-16).

Here Palestine is to be an astonishment and a hissing for ever. Seems to conflict with the idea of Israel's restoration?

‘All these curses will come on you, and will pursue you and overtake you until you be destroyed, because you did not listen to the voice of the Lord your God, to keeps His commandments and His statutes which He commanded you, and they will be on you as a sign and a wonder for ever’ (Deut 28.45-46).

God's curses are to be on His wayward people as a sign and a wonder for ever. So much for Israel's restoration.

To the house of Jacob – ‘The women of My people you cast out from their pleasant houses, from their young children you take away My glory for ever’ (Micah 2.9)

If God's glory is taken away from Israel's children for ever how can they be restored?A few more to consider:

‘The skin disease of Naaman shall cleave to you and to your sons for ever’ (2 Kings 5.27). Even in the heavenly kingdom or in Hell?
Of Ammonites and Moabites – ‘you shall not seek their peace or their prosperity for ever’ (Deuteronomy 23.6). Are we still to see them as unforgivable?
Of Canaanites – ‘you shall not seek their peace or their prosperity for ever’ (Ezra 9.12). So that’s now three unforgivable nations. We will have to alter the Lord’s prayer.
‘So Joshua burned Ai and made it a heap of ruins for ever’ (Joshua 8.28). But later its site was built on.’
‘These stones will be to the people of Israel a memorial for ever’ (Joshua 4.7). But they have been long forgotten and cannot be identified.

It is quite clear to anyone who thinks that the word cannot mean for ever


He will cite verses like Isaiah 24:4-6, 51:6 and Revelation 20:11 (two of which already contradict his theory for they come from the Old Testament).

Well I certainly did not intend to cite the first two. Would you call this a lie or just deceit? Let us rather consider:

Heaven and earth will pass away but My words will not pass away (Matt 24.35).


Truly I say to you until Heaven and earth pass away not an iota or a dot will pass from the Law until all is accomplished'. (Matt 5.18).

Thus the passing away of the Heaven and the earth promised in Matt 24.35 indicates that all has been fulfilled.

By the same word the heavens that now are and the earth have been stored up for fire being reserved against the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men -- but the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise and the elements will be dissolved in fervent heat, and the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up (or 'laid bare' (2 Peter 3.7, 10).

the sun became black as sackcloth of hair and the whole moon became as blood and the stars of the heavens fell to the earth (Rev 6.12-13)

the earth could not survive the impact of the stars. it is all the stars not just a few asteroids.

'from Whom the heavens and the earth fled away, and there was found no place for them (Rev 20.11)

a moment's thought will indicate a catastrophe of unbelievable proportions which nothing could survive (of course the is where the literalists suddenly forget to be literal lol).

petrobb
Jul 25th 2014, 05:05 PM
What shall we say? Is there a contradiction in the bible? Perish the thought!

at last something we can agree on :) It is just that your mind is too pedantic. You take poetry literally :)


There are scriptures to zoom us in and explain Isaiah 24:4-6, 51:6.

well i don't see Is 24.4-6 as forecasting the end of the world. it is dealing with the aftermath of an invasion. but certainly Is 51.6 forecasts the end of all things.



They are;

Psalm 102:25-26; "Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands. They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed:"

note that THEY WILL PERISH. Anything folded up like a garment is unusable. But this is POETRY.


Hebrews 1:10-12; "And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail."


Once again THEY WILL PERISH (be destroyed). But this is just a citation of the above poetic dscription


A "Garment" in parable is works (Ps.73:6; Isa.61:10; Rev.19:8 etc.).


here it goes. more of Walls' inventions. according to him garment = works i wonder what sandals means?

but his quotes do not say that to the normal person. in psalm 73.6 'violence covers them as a garment'. it is a pictorial expression, it does not make violence = a garment.

is 61.10 says He has clothed me with the garments of salvation, He has covered me with the robe of righteousness.

How are God's gift of salvation (deliverance) and righteousness covering us in His eyes be seen as works? It is the very opposite


And a "Garment" is worn over, or on the surface of that which is clothed. The "Garment" of the earth is what happened, or, what works occurred, on its surface.



well there are rules about being impolite on the forum (even if Walls ignored them) so I will not say what I think of this absurd statement. Scripture does not speak of the garment of the earth. It simply gives an illustration of something being put away because it was no longer usable, When the common man rolled up his cloak and changed it he no longer had use for it. .

petrobb
Jul 25th 2014, 06:28 PM
[QUOTE]A "Garment" in parable is works (Ps.73:6; Isa.61:10; Rev.19:8 etc.). And a "Garment" is worn over, or on the surface of that which is clothed. The "Garment" of the earth is what happened, or, what works occurred, on its surface.

but it is not parable, it is simile. like a garment indicates that it is an illustration not a concrete description. there are no grounds for suggesting that the mention of a garment always means works. in the case of Adam it indicted God's graciousness to Adam


First the rebellion of the previous Governor of this earth, called, "Prince of this world" (Jn.14:30)

the prince of THIS WORLD was in this case the High Priest, and was later Pilate (see Acts 4.24 ff)



Satan laid it waste (Isa.14:17; Ezk.28:18).


neither of these citations refer to Satan. They both refer to earthly kings of Babylon and Tyre who thought they were gods.


Then later, man's sins laid the earth waste as murder, idolatry and sexual offense "curse" and "defile the land" (e.g. Gen.3:17, 4:11; Lev.18:25). That is, the world as we know it has a history of evil works and lies cursed and defiled. And when God caused the Great Flood of Noah's time, He "washed" the earth of its previous works. That is why this flood is likened to Baptism in 1st Peter 3:20-21;


lol you have a wonderful imagination. Baptism does not mean washing. It refers to being drenched with the Spirit.In 1 peter 3 the idea was that just as the waters bore up the ark so the resurrection of Christ bears us up
Note the parallel, 'saved by water', 'saved -- by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

it has absolutely nothing to do with 'washing the earth'. Was that why it was folded up like a garment? lol Did someone forget to iron it?

petrobb
Jul 25th 2014, 09:40 PM
In Romans Chapter 6 we a "killed" by water in Baptism (Rom.6:1-6).

guess the water was to deep? :) Romans 6 speaks of dying with Christ (not being killed) and rising with Him by the Spirit.If water baptism is also in mind it is because it symbolises being buried with Him and rising again with Him.



But in 1st Peter 3:20-21 Noah and family are SAVED BY water. Why? Because they could emerge from the Ark to an earth PURGED of its old works. They could have a new beginning. BUT IT WAS STILL THE SAME EARTH. So Peter continues to tell us in 2nd Peter 2:4-6 and 3:5-7;


they were saved THROUGH water by the Ark. How were they saved? Well some might see it as signifying surviving the flood by being in the ark just as we survive by being in Christ. It had nothing to do with the world bein purged from its old works. Peter gives no such hint.

Of course it was the same earth. Noah and God's people had not been removed from it. It is different in the case of the destruction of the earth after ALL have been removed from it by death and resurrection or by rapture.


"For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;"


yes Noah was saved by the ark through water, There was no reason to destroy the earth.


"For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men."

yes the earth as it is now will be burned up, it will pass away. it will be no more. God will have nothing more to do with it. It 'fled away' from Him


That is, the earth's works, or "Garment" was destroyed by water, and will be again destroyed by fire.

It has nothing to do with the earth's 'works'. The whole world will be destroyed by fire, its elements (what it is made of) will melt in fervent heat. And it will happen because of sinful man.


The world and its system and its works will be PURGED and forgotten at the White Throne


That is not what it says. Mankind will be judged and heaven and earth will flee from before Him it is a pictorial way of saying that they will have nothing more to do with Him. They will be banished from His presence.


and a new set of WORKS - RIGHTEOUSNESS, will be the norm on that earth AFTER ITS PURGING. 2nd Peter 3:13 says of this coming world;

"Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness."


Righteousness does not dwell in it as a thing, it dwells in the NEW EARTH (the spiritual earth which cannot know corruption) because the people living there are righteous. What God is interested in is PEOPLE. Your grand scheme collapses.
(2)

Starting from Genesis 1:26-28, through Genesis 12 when God promises a section of EARTH to Abraham and his descendants, through Psalm 8 to Matthew 5:5 to Luke 19:12-19, through Hebrews 2:5-8 to Revelation 2:27, 12:5 and 19:15, GOD HAS NEVER CHANGED HIS PLAN WITH THE EARTH.

The only problem is that in each case you have ignored what Scripture SAID and have fitted it into your scheme. What God is interested in is MAN. God's plan has to do with MAN not with earth which was simply made for man to enjoy. And having got rid of the earth and its corruptibility and temporary nature He will replace it with a world in which there is no corruption because it is a spiritual world and everlasting in which MAN in his new spiritual status will live with the Father and the Son.



The bible ends with a heavenly city "coming down to the New Earth" (Rev.21:2) for "REIGNING" (Rev.22:5). The Greek word for "NEW EARTH" is literally "RENEWED" or "MADE PRISTINE".

The same word is used of the NEW JERUSALEM. So do you think that the new Jerusalem is simply the old Jerusalem renewed? The New Jerusalem represents the people of God. It is wholly new. See Galatians 4.20 ff' Heb 12.22. And so to be consistent are the NEW HEAVENS and THE NEW EARTH.




God is not to be thwarted. He had a plan, and NO ONE can move Him from a relentless realization of this plan. He is the ALMIGHTY. Man is made from the earth, nourished by the earth and FOR RULING THE EARTH - and he does in the end.

It is sad that you cannot see that God majors on MAN not on earth. It was man who was 'made in God's image' not the earth. God's plan is not for the earth but for MAN. Ruling the earth is irrelevant. Man already rules the earth (Rom 5.17; Rev 5.10; 20.4).

See 2 Tim 2.11-13. Each parallel occur at the same time as its parallel. We die with Him and live with Him at the same time. If we deny Him He denies us NOW. If we are faithless He is faithful NOW. So if we endure we reign with Him NOW.


(3)
Petrobb will have you believe that a man is resurrection is a "spirit being". He will quote 1st Corinthians 15:44;

"It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body."

I did not say a 'spirit being' I said a 'spiritual being'. But you are certainly correct in saying that I will cite 1 Corinthians 15. Let uas see what it says,

It is sown in corruption (a body that ages and dies being natural flesh). It is raised in incorruption, a body which does not age and die because it is incorruptible like the body of our Lord Jesus Christ which could appear and disappear at will and which could go through walls. See Phil 3.21. It is not natural but spiritual. Flesh and blood CANNOT inherit the kingdom of God (1 Cor 15.50). It is not earthly but heavenly (1 Cor 15.47-49). It is not corruptible but incorruptible. It will be noted that there is no mention of 'flesh' for flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. How could God have made it clearer? It will be incorruptible and immortal (1 Cor 15.53)


But this verse does not say a man in resurrection has a "spirit" body which "hovers over the earth" in the future.


well as the dead will rise when we are raptured when He comes (1 Thess 4.17) and will meet Him in the air they will kind of hover over the earth. It is significant that the New Testament never says He will set foot on earth. He comes into the air above and collects His people and pours out judgment on the world (Matt 24.31; 1 Thess 4.17; Rev 19.11-16). But the idea is not that he continues to hover over the earth but takes them up to heaven as the new Jerusalem ready for God's creation of a new heaven and a new earth suited to incorruptible, immortal man and as the dwelling place of the Father and the Son.



The word "Spiritual" means "having its origin in the Holy Spirit".



That is your definition not the definition of Scripture. Indeed the first heaven and earth had its origin in the Holy Spirit (Gen 1.2) but it was not thereby spiritual. 1 cor 15 defines what it means by spiritual, it means heavenly. It does not just mean made by the Holy Spirit. It is the Godhead which creates the new man not the Holy Spirit alone.

Note the total lack of mention of the Holy Spirit in 1 Cor 15. It is all of 'God' and of the last Adam, Christ Jesus, as the 'lifegiving Spirit'. Those who enter the new heavens and earth are not products of Adam (flesh and blood) they are products of the lifegiving Spirit, Jesus Christ (spiritual).



The first body of man is made from dust. So he is called ADAM. The second body, that of Eve, has its ORIGIN in Adam, the man. So she is called "WO-MAN".


but not in the Hebrew. In Gen 2 Man was adam woman was ishshah . Your comparison does not hold. It was only later that ish was used of a husband because he married ishshah.



The third body of man comes from the seed of the man and the seed of a woman and has its ORIGIN IN THE WOMB. But, in order to achieve the high and difficult task of "subduing" and "ruling" the "Prince of this world", who is an angel, and made higher than man (Ps.8:5; Heb.2:7-9), man needed a SECOND BIRTH. He needed to be "ENLIVENED" by the Holy Spirit.


Man's reasoning. It is not stated in Scripture. If he means to equate WO-MAN with WOMB that only occurs in English. Once again we have WALLS' obsession with ruling. That is his dream. But man will never rule Satan, and the prince of this world was a man, probably the High Priest, the Jewish ruler of Judea. . There is never any indication that man will rule Satan. Only God could do that. It is because JESUS IS GOD that He can rule Satan. See how his inventions collapse when properly examined?


And John 3:6 tells us that ONLY the SPIRIT of man is enlivened by this RE-birth.
T
Actually it does not say that. The whole of man is enlivened by the Spirit for man is ONE, even if he has three/four parts.. This is bordering on Gnosticism. BEWARE. MAN is enlivened within his spirit when he is born again but it affects all of him..




Then later, through a process of eating Christ, the man has Christ "FORMED" in him and is TRANSFORMED into the image of Christ (Jn.6:53-56; 2nd Cor.3:18; Gal.4:19) - that is, in his SOUL.



this is just imagination. 'Eating' means believing in Him (John 6.35) . It is when we believe in Him that we are born of the Spirit and are united with Christ in His body. And we are spiritually united with Him in His body, not physically. Thus His body is spiritual too. All this has nothing directly to do with his SOUL (psuchos = life). There is no Scriptural evidence for that whatsoever.

His soul and body are the way in which he is like animals (body and life). It is man's spirit that connects with the heavenly.



And our Lord Jesus informed us that this eating is by Him (1) going away and (2) being replaced by the Holy Spirit and that His words thus become "SPIRIT AND LIFE" (Jn.6:62-63).

He said nothing of the kind. Jesus said 'I will come to you.' (John 14.18) He also said that He and His Father would come to them and dwell in them (John 14.23). This idea that the Holy Spirit has a solitary vigil on earth is both unscriptural and heresy. It divides up the Godhead. Jesus words were Spirit and life when He was with His disciples (John 6.62-63). They gave life to His disciples because they believed God and believed in Him (John 3.16; 5.24).


Then, after death, or at the Lord Jesus' Second Coming, the believer will receive a new body.


The new spiritual, heavenly body is not received until the resurrection of the body. After death we are 'with Christ' in our spirits. But we are given no further details.


Like the New Earth above, it is the same body, but NOT FORMED IN THE WOMB, but in heaven (2nd Cor.5:1-4) by the Holy Spirit.

Nowhere does it say that the new body is formed by the Holy Spirit. It is GOD who forms the new body by the resurrection. And it is a heavenly, spiritual, incorruptible body (1 Cor 15). It is NOT flesh and blood which CANNOT inherit the kingdom of God.


When our Lord Jesus died He was raised by the Holy Spirit (Rom.8:11)

He was raised by GOD (Acts 2.24), He was raised by Himself (John 10.18). Rom 8.11 if read properly says that GOD raised Jesus from the dead, not that He was raised by the Holy Spirit. And it is GOD who will make out mortal bodies ALIVE as heavenly, spiritual incorruptible bodies through His Spirit.



but in the same body (with the wounds of the nails and spear). Then, our Lord Jesus, with the resurrection life of the Holy Spirit IN HIM, "BECAME THE LIFE-GIVING SPIRIT" within the context of resurrection (1st Cor.15:45).

Jesus rose in a transformed body that could appear and disappear at will. It was NOT flesh and blood. He Himself was raised by GOD and by HIMSELF. He was not raised with the resurrection life of the Holy Spirit. That is to deny that HIS OWN SPIRIT was God. He rose as the God-man because His Father and He Himself raised His earthly body as a transformed heavenly and spiritual body uniting it with the Spirit of the Son (not the Holy Spirit). It was His Father and Himself Who made Him a life-giving Spirit.


So the whole process of getting man to be where God wants him is realized and effected BY THE HOLY SPIRIT.

This is unscriptural and untrue. The whole process was effected by the whole Godhead. The whole Godhead dwell within the Christian and it is the whole Godhead Who will make our mortal bodies immortal through the Spirit.



Thus, man remains a man, but the restoration and empowering process by the Holy Spirit makes man "SPIRITUAL".

Man is spiritual before he dies (1 Cor 2.11 ff). And his body being made spiritual is the activity of the Godhead effected through the Spirit Who dwell in man. Note that in Romans 8 the Spirit of God dwells in us, and the Spirit of Christ as well as the Holy Spirit . We actually have no grounds for seeing the Spirit of Christ as meaning the Holy Spirit. The Father dwell in us as Spirit (John 4.24). Christ dwells in us by HIS Spirit not by the Holy Spirit. And the Holy Spirit dwells in us. That is the Scriptural position.


Not a "spirit-being", but a MAN who has his origin by and through the Holy Spirit.

As I have demonstrated this is not strictly true. It is far too glib. Man had his origin in the Creator, God Himself. He is indwelt by the Spirit of the Father, and by the Spirit of the Son and by the Holy Spirit. He is made spiritually alive by the activity of the Holy Spirit whilst on earth. But it is GOD who gives him his heavenly, spiritual, incorruptible body.



But he is still a man. Our Lord Jesus confirmed this in Luke 24:39 when He says to His disciples;

"Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have."


But no one doubts this. What he is NOT is flesh and blood. Like Jesus Himself with Whose body we are already united (thus demonstrating that it is a spiritual body) we will be heavenly, spiritual and incorruptible and immortal. No flesh and blood for us. Like Jesus we would be able to appear and disappear at will on this earth if it still existed (which it will not). We would not be tied to flesh and blood.

And God will have fulfilled His purpose in creation.



Our Lord Jesus, who had the wounds of Golgotha, and who ate food and was to be touched and handled, was 100% physical man, but had at this point, His ORIGIN in the HOLY SPIRIT.

This statement is frankly incredible. It reduces Jesus to being just a man. He was not 100% man, He was God and man. And He was God by right of His own Spirit being God, not because of the Holy Spirit. He was raised by God and by Himself as we have seen, not by the Holy Spirit.

[
B]To summarize;[/B]
God has NEVER changed nor deviated from His original purpose. There is (1) no scripture that reports this, and (2) to attribute such a defeat to God at Satan's hands is blasphemy.

God has not diverted from His original purpose which was to make man suitable to dwell with Him for ever, fully made in His image as spiritual beings. In the process man has sinned. those who are Christ's have been redeemed, they have been made alive by the Spirit, and they now reign with Him preparatory to being raised by GOD in order to reign with Him in Heaven and finally raised by GOD with a heavenly, spiritual, incorrupiibke, immortal resurrection body to reign with Him in the new spiritual earth suitable to be God's everlasting dwellinplace.




The earth stays the earth.

That is not what the Bible says as we have seen.


I
t might be purged one, two or three times (if you count Genesis 1:2), but it stays the original earth and is not "destroyed" in the sense of annihilation. It is "RENEWED". Its old works, or "Garment", is purged and burned away, but it itself remains forever.

The original earth is not a suitable place for God's permanent dwellingplace. Even the Heaven of Heavens cannot contain Him but the amazing truth is that the 'new earth' CAN. As Jesus said this earth and heavens will pass away. As Peter said its elements will be dissolved. As John said it pictorially will flee away from God's presence. It has no part in the future.

We have demonstrated earlier that 'for ever' simply means 'into the distant future. For this compare the following Scriptures

Forever.

‘The sin of Judah is written with a pen of iron --- You even of yourself will discontinue from your heritage that I gave you, and I will cause you to serve your enemies in a land which you do not know, for you have kindled a fire in my anger which will burn for ever’ (Jer 17.4).

To David after his adultery and murder of Uriah – ‘the sword will NEVER depart from your house’ (2 Sam .12.10).

For My people have forgotten me -- to make their land an astonishment and a hissing for ever, everyone who passes thereby will be astonished, and shake his head (Jer 18.15-16).

‘All these curses will come on you, and will pursue you and overtake you until you be destroyed, because you did not listen to the voice of the Lord your God, to keeps His commandments and His statutes which He commanded you, and they will be on you as a sign and a wonder for ever’ (Deut 28.45-46).

To the house of Jacob – ‘The women of My people you cast out from their pleasant houses, from their young children you take away My glory for ever’ (Micah 2.9)

‘The skin disease of Naaman shall cleave to you and to your sons for ever’ (2 Kings 5.27). Even in the heavenly kingdom or in Hell?

Of Ammonites and Moabites – ‘you shall not seek their peace or their prosperity for ever’ (Deuteronomy 23.6). Are we still to see them as unforgivable?

Of Canaanites – ‘you shall not seek their peace or their prosperity for ever (Ezra 9.12). So that’s now three unforgivable nations. We will have to alter the Lord’s prayer.

‘So Joshua burned Ai and made it a heap of ruins for ever’ (Joshua 8.28). But later its site was built on.’

‘These stones will be to the people of Israel a memorial for ever’ (Joshua 4.7). But they have been long forgotten and cannot be identified.









Man is man and remains 100% man, even in resurrection. It is just that he undergoes a RENEWING process in all three of his parts - Spirit, Soul and Body BY THE HOLY SPIRIT to make him capable of achieving God plan with man.


How can he be 100% man if he is not 'flesh and blood'? Flesh and blood WII NOT INHERIT the Kingdom of God. He is not just renewed he is transformed (1 Thess 4.13 ff; 1 Cor 15.52-53; Phil 3.29). He receives a heavenly, spiritual, incorruptible, immortal 'body'.



In the end it was a long post - but I do not apologize.

Rather apologise for all the errors in it. And for your unfounded accusations against me

petrobb
Jul 25th 2014, 10:37 PM
It is truly amazing that such an attitude to God's Word can exist. Here we have a book so intricate, so well written, so revealing, so high, so complicated that men have studied it more than any other book, over three and a half Millennia, and still not come to the bottom of the matter, and a servant of the Lord, petrobb, can say that it is written for "farmers" (as opposed to intellectuals).

yes it was written by God inspired men for farmers. Who else was it written for in the Old Testament? Israel were a nation of farmers. The only prophet whose origin we know about was a farmer (Amos).

But AS USUAL you do not read what I say, only what you wished I had said. I did not actually say it was written by farmers, I said that Israel, FOR WHOM IT WAS INITIALLY WRITTEN, were mainly farmers. It had to be aimed at them as FARMERS.

So come down from your high horse and apologise.



But what does scripture say? Acts 7:22:-

"And Moses was learned in all the wisdom of the Egyptians, and was mighty in words and in deeds."

And the Egyptians built the Pyramids, the which still boggle the mind of the modern engineer.

what has this to say to anything? Moses was not writing for the Egyptians, but for a nation of farmers.


And further, it is not as if Ecclesiastes 1:4 was the only verse that showed the earth remaining forever.

ok lets look at the word 'forever'.

Forever:

‘The sin of Judah is written with a pen of iron --- You even of yourself will discontinue from your heritage that I gave you, and I will cause you to serve your enemies in a land which you do not know, for you have kindled a fire in my anger which will burn for ever’ (Jer 17.4).
To David after his adultery and murder of Uriah – ‘the sword will NEVER depart from your house’ (2 Sam .12.10).
For My people have forgotten me -- to make their land an astonishment and a hissing for ever, everyone who passes thereby will be astonished, and shake his head (Jer 18.15-16).
‘All these curses will come on you, and will pursue you and overtake you until you be destroyed, because you did not listen to the voice of the Lord your God, to keeps His commandments and His statutes which He commanded you, and they will be on you as a sign and a wonder for ever’ (Deut 28.45-46).
To the house of Jacob – ‘The women of My people you cast out from their pleasant houses, from their young children you take away My glory for ever’ (Micah 2.9)
‘The skin disease of Naaman shall cleave to you and to your sons for ever’ (2 Kings 5.27). Even in the heavenly kingdom or in Hell?
Of Ammonites and Moabites – ‘you shall not seek their peace or their prosperity for ever’ (Deuteronomy 23.6). Are we still to see them as unforgivable?
Of Canaanites – ‘you shall not seek their peace or their prosperity’ (Ezra 9.12). So that’s now three unforgivable nations. We will have to alter the Lord’s prayer.
‘So Joshua burned Ai and made it a heap of ruins for ever’ (Joshua 8.28). But later its site was built on.’
‘These stones will be to the people of Israel a memorial for ever’ (Joshua 4.7). But they have been long forgotten and cannot be identified.

In none of these cases can forever literally mean it.





To uphold a doctrine of the earth being annihilated, one has to overturn a multitude of verses, AND the eternal purpose of God which says that man is to rule the earth,

For the meaning of the word translated 'forever' see above. God's purpose was to prepare man to dwell with Him everlastingly. In process of that He set him to rule over the animals, not over the earth. The earth was always seen as belonging to God.



PLUS the fact that the earth, having being made by Jesus and FOR Him (Col.1:16),

But for Him ALL THINGS CONSIST, not just this puny earth. If you look at what He created it included the heavenly powers, which were also created by Him and for Him. He has much more to deal with and rule over than the earth.


IT IS HIS POSSESSION! Who will take it from Him?

He will. He will destroy it by His coming in judgment on a ruined world. 'Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away'. He is more concerned with His words to MEN.



God the Father? Shall not "... The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever" (Revelation 11:15)

Kingdoms in the Bible are not pieces of land. There were no fixed boundaries. They consisted of the people over whom kings ruled. So yes all kingly rule will devolve on Him.


And Isaiah 66:22 tells us,

"For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain."

True, the NEW heavens and the NEW earth. Not this miserable bit of dust unsuitable for spiritual beings to live on.


I have underlined the word "make" because the Hebrew word is "asah", and this word means "to make from existing materials"


It simply means 'to make' like God made the sun and the moon. Did He not create them? It does not necessarily mean to make from existing materials. What did God make the sun moon and stars from?

.
It is in contrast to the word "bara", used in Genesis 1:1 when God CREATED (out of nothing) the heavens and the earth.


We assume that bara means to make out of nothing. But it is nowhere stated that thongs were made out of nothing. It is an assumption. If you look at the creation narrative 'make' is used more often than bara.


That means that the New Heavens and New Earth are made from that which now exists, confirming the Greek word "New" in Revelation 21:1, which means "RENEWED" or "MADE PRISTINE".


It proves nothing of the kind. What did God MAKE the sun moon and stars out of? Nothing!

The word for new in Rev 21.1 is also used of the New Jerusalem. Was that the old Jerusalem renewed? It already existed in Paul's day. See Gal 4.20n ff. So it was something wholly new.


And again, in 2 Peter 2:5;

"And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;"


The 'old world' simply means the world of Noah's day, the world of bygone days. If there was a 'new world' it was the world from Gen 9 onwards. That was renewed. .

But we speak of the old world (Europe) and the new world (the Americas). Words are used in this way.


We know that the "old" world is not in contrast to a newly created earth. It is in contrast to a set of circumstances on the earth then!

yes as compared with afterwards. thus there is already 'a new, renewed earth'. But it is never called that because it is the SAME earth. But the New Earth IS called that because it is a TOTALLY NEW EARTH like the NEW JERUSALEM IS A TOTALLY NEW JERUSALEM, not the old one renewed


The whole bible is replete with such evidences of the earth "remaining", and God's Kingdom being eternal, and you would teach otherwise?

LOL it is not I who teach otherwise, but the Scriptures. I have always said that God's kingdom is eternal. That is precisely because it will not be on this old world which is passing away. But the earth will only remain as long as God allows it to and that will end at Christ's second coming.

Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away. That is Jesus' statement about the Heavens and earth He created. It means that this physical universe will pass away.

You say the whole Bible is replete with the idea that the world will remain eternally. OK Give me all the citations in the NEW TESTAMENT which say so.

divaD
Jul 25th 2014, 10:55 PM
ok lets look at the word 'forever'.

Forever:

‘The sin of Judah is written with a pen of iron --- You even of yourself will discontinue from your heritage that I gave you, and I will cause you to serve your enemies in a land which you do not know, for you have kindled a fire in my anger which will burn for ever’ (Jer 17.4).
To David after his adultery and murder of Uriah – ‘the sword will NEVER depart from your house’ (2 Sam .12.10).
For My people have forgotten me -- to make their land an astonishment and a hissing for ever, everyone who passes thereby will be astonished, and shake his head (Jer 18.15-16).
‘All these curses will come on you, and will pursue you and overtake you until you be destroyed, because you did not listen to the voice of the Lord your God, to keeps His commandments and His statutes which He commanded you, and they will be on you as a sign and a wonder for ever’ (Deut 28.45-46).
To the house of Jacob – ‘The women of My people you cast out from their pleasant houses, from their young children you take away My glory for ever’ (Micah 2.9)
‘The skin disease of Naaman shall cleave to you and to your sons for ever’ (2 Kings 5.27). Even in the heavenly kingdom or in Hell?
Of Ammonites and Moabites – ‘you shall not seek their peace or their prosperity for ever’ (Deuteronomy 23.6). Are we still to see them as unforgivable?
Of Canaanites – ‘you shall not seek their peace or their prosperity’ (Ezra 9.12). So that’s now three unforgivable nations. We will have to alter the Lord’s prayer.
‘So Joshua burned Ai and made it a heap of ruins for ever’ (Joshua 8.28). But later its site was built on.’
‘These stones will be to the people of Israel a memorial for ever’ (Joshua 4.7). But they have been long forgotten and cannot be identified.

In none of these cases can forever literally mean it.








I realize you feel you are making a very profound point here when in reality you are not. I'm pretty certain most of us have enough sense to determine when forever literally means that and when it doesn't.

Ecclesiastes 1:4 *One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever.


There is a contrast in this passage. I'm pretty certain you understand the concept of contrasts. How then can there be a legit contrast if the earth doesn't literally abide forever? Explain the contrast then, assuming you are correct.

Walls
Jul 26th 2014, 06:43 AM
Let us look at examples of Forever.



It is most interesting that you are selective. For instance, the first mention of "Forever" is that Adam would eat of the Tree of Life and "live forever". Why have you not not used this "First Mention"?

However, the reader deserves an answer to your selection. I answer thus. In certain scriptures the Holy Spirit uses the words "for ever" to indicate that the issue will not be overturned - ever. So let us examine some of your proofs.


‘The sin of Judah is written with a pen of iron --- You even of yourself will discontinue from your heritage that I gave you, and I will cause you to serve your enemies in a land which you do not know, for you have kindled a fire in my anger which will burn for ever’ (Jer 17.4).

How does this tie in with restoration?

You play with incorrect grammar. The context of the words "for ever" pertain NOT to Israel's forgiveness and restoration. They pertain to God's anger. It means that when God thinks back on Israel's harlotry, the anger provoked remains. The solution for this by the Almighty is to put Israel's sins from remembrance. Thus, Isaiah 43:25;

"I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins."


To David after his adultery and murder of Uriah – ‘the sword will NEVER depart from your house’ (2 Sam .12.10).

Not a good outlook for the Messiah?

David's "house" was plagued by the sword until it ceased. The sword was NEVER removed. It does not say "your generations" as you would have the reader think. In 1st Kings 3:1 Solomon, son of David, raised up his "house" with the daughter of Pharaoh. "House" generally means "household", and WITHIN David's immediate household, the sword was NEVER removed. That his house ended is testified to in Acts 15:16 where David's "house" will be raised up again. If we apply your meaning to David's house, in which the Messiah is included, you testify that our Lord Jesus had NO legitimacy to the throne as David's "house" lay in ruins. Not so. The "house" that never saw peace again is not the "generations" of David, but the immediate household. This is further confirmed in Zechariah Chapter 12 when God will restore David's house "IN THAT DAY" (v.8). So also Amos 9:11.


Because My people have forgotten me -- to make their land an astonishment and a hissing for ever, everyone who passes thereby will be astonished, and shake his head (Jer 18.15-16).

How does this tie in with the restoration of Israel?

‘All these curses will come on you, and will pursue you and overtake you until you be destroyed, because you did not listen to the voice of the Lord your God, to keeps His commandments and His statutes which He commanded you, and they will be on you as a sign and a wonder for ever’ (Deut 28.45-46).

More problems for a belief in the restoration of Israel?

Again, the grammar indicates that what happened to Israel is NEVER forgotten. It is a "SIGN" that shall never be forgotten. God taught two great lessons that shall never be forgotten;

He is a God Who keeps His side of a Covenant. Moses (e.g. Deut.28) outlined what would happen to Israel if they did not keep their side of the Covenant of Sinai. And God made it come to pass. What happened to Israel for their Covenant-Breaking will be an everlasting "sign". In any case, how could it pass if God's Word will never pass, even into the New Earth (Matt.24:35)? Is it not written?
God will keep ALL His words. That is, if "eternal torment" is promised to those who go against Him, He will deliver! If a Christian damages the Church in any way "God will 'destroy' him!" (1st Cor.3:16-17). This is a sobering thought to those who misrepresent God's Words before the brethren.




To the house of Jacob – ‘The women of My people you cast out from their pleasant houses, from their young children you take away My glory for ever’ (Micah 2.9)

Not much hope for Judah then?

Again you twist the grammar. "For ever" has NOT to do with Israel's FUTURE glory. It has to do with that which they had. Was the glory of Solomon's Temple not great? But shall not the glory of Zerubbabel's be greater (Hag.2:3-9)???? I do declare that the former glory of Jacob's house has passed FOR EVER. But does this mean that ANOTHER and GREATER glory does not await them?


‘The skin disease of Naaman shall cleave to you and to your sons for ever’ (2 Kings 5.27).

Even in the heavenly kingdom or in Hell?

Should we not wait to see? In Daniel 12:2, concerning God's people Israel AFTER their restoration and resurrection it says;

"And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt"


Of Ammonites and Moabites – ‘you shall not seek their peace or their prosperity for ever’ (Deuteronomy 23.6).

Are we still to see them as unforgivable?

Notice your use of grammar, or worse ..... (I may not judge motive, but the other readers will wonder)! It is "you" in scripture - meaning Israel, but you make it "WE", the Church.


Of Canaanites – ‘you shall not seek their peace or their prosperity’ (Ezra 9.12).

So that’s now three unforgivable nations. We will have to alter the Lord’s prayer.

The command was for Israel to annihilate these nations because they had;

bred Giants again from angels
caused their children to pass through the fire of Molech
worshiped idols
caused sexual offense including sodomy and bestiality
polluted the land with their iniquities

God commanded Israel to annihilate these nations because their SEED was evil. One generation produced another generation of evildoers. The so-called Lord's Prayer is directed at US for trespasses against US, not those aimed at God as the Canaanites did. But what ISRAEL is commanded to do it NOT REVOKED. So now I have a question for you. Can you show the Canaanites REMAINING in any one single prophecy of the future?


‘So Joshua burned Ai and made it a heap of ruins for ever’ (Joshua 8.28). But later its site was built on.’

You will have to give scripture for its restoration. My understanding is that it is an archeological ruin still today. But again I must point out your twisting. Scripture consigns the city Ai to oblivion, NOT THE SITE! Is the city of Ai in existence today?


‘These stones will be to the people of Israel a memorial for ever’ (Joshua 4.7).

But they have been long forgotten and cannot be identified.

The twelve stones left in Jordan as a MEMORIAL...

are NOT forgotten. They are indelibly and eternally scripted in the Word of God
do not have to be identified. They must be REMEMBERED - not identified. Both Israel and the heathen offer blood sacrifices. One cannot be IDENTIFIED from the other. It is the MEMORY of what they stand for that counts.


I hope you will also believe these verses are for ever with the same intensity?

I do..... as I believe I have shown.

petrobb
Jul 26th 2014, 11:09 AM
I realize you feel you are making a very profound point here when in reality you are not. I'm pretty certain most of us have enough sense to determine when forever literally means that and when it doesn't.

Ecclesiastes 1:4 *One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever.


There is a contrast in this passage. I'm pretty certain you understand the concept of contrasts. How then can there be a legit contrast if the earth doesn't literally abide forever? Explain the contrast then, assuming you are correct.

but the point is that the Hebrew word does not mean ;for ever' Intrinsically it means 'longlastingly, into the (fairlY) distant future'. This is a recognised fact among genuine Hebrew scholars.

the contrast in Eccles 1.4 is equally there if we translate as, *One generation passes away, and another generation comes: but the earth abides longlastingly.

Of course if you want to translate as 'forever' I cannot stop you. But do not claim that you have Biblical support for your position. You have not.

And the majority of Christians recognise that this earth has a time limit on it. One day the heat of the sun will change sufficiently for the earth to become uninhabitable. the earth and the heavens were never intended to be permanent. God made them with a time limit on them.

petrobb
Jul 26th 2014, 11:55 AM
It is most interesting that you are selective. For instance, the first mention of "Forever" is that Adam would eat of the Tree of Life and "live forever". Why have you not not used this "First Mention"?

Of course I was selective. What a foolish thing to say. I was not pretending to provide all verses which contain 'into the long distant future'. I was providing those which normally intelligent people will recognise as making clear what the Hebrew word means.

But I believe that God was saying that eating of the tree of life would ensure longlastingness.


However, the reader deserves an answer to your selection. I answer thus. In certain scriptures the Holy Spirit uses the words "for ever" to indicate that the issue will not be overturned - ever. So let us examine some of your proofs.

That's right. change the meaning of the word to suit your case LOL Make it mean what it obviously DOES NOT. I expected that of you. But remember you too will give account of how you have manipulated the word of God.




You play with incorrect grammar. The context of the words "for ever" pertain NOT to Israel's forgiveness and restoration. They pertain to God's anger. It means that when God thinks back on Israel's harlotry, the anger provoked remains. The solution for this by the Almighty is to put Israel's sins from remembrance.

In which case His anger does not last for ever. You really can't have it both ways. I call on all readers to note your duplicity.



Thus, Isaiah 43:25;

"I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins."


In which case His anger may be longlasting but it will not abide for ever. I repeat. You can't have it both ways.


David's "house" was plagued by the sword until it ceased. The sword was NEVER removed. It does not say "your generations" as you would have the reader think.

You love trying to say what I want the reader to think. But as usual you are TOTALLY WRONG. The verse said 'the sword will not depart from your house for ever.'Thus IT COULD NOT CEASE if the word means what you say it means. And that means that it will not ever depart from the house of the Messiah.

In my view it meant that David's house would suffer the sword into the distant future. Note what happened to the kings until the Exile. And it no doubt continued beyond that. BUT IT WILL NOT CONTINUE FOREVER as will be quite obvious to anyone but you..


In 1st Kings 3:1 Solomon, son of David, raised up his "house" with the daughter of Pharaoh. "House" generally means "household", and WITHIN David's immediate household, the sword was NEVER removed. That his house ended is testified to in Acts 15:16 where David's "house" will be raised up again.


Acte 15.16 speaks of his tabernacle, not his house, and it is a quotation from Amos 9.11 ff which James used because of its mention of Gentiles. The raising up of the tabernacle of David which had fallen down occurred after the Exile when Jehoiachin was raised up by the king of Babylon and when his descendant Zerubbabel ruled over the new Israel. It occurred again when God raised up the Messiah and set Him on His throne. And this was what caused the outreach to the Gentiles. So the whole of that prophecy has been fulfilled. But it says nothing about the cessation of David's house. For it was not David's house which had ceased. It was their positon as rulers. Thus the prophecy still applied to the house of David and its continual fulfilment was seen in the crucifixion of Christ, but the sword against the house of David will NOT GO ON FOR EVER. It will certainly cease in the everlasting kingdom. You are simply misusing Scripture.


If we apply your meaning to David's house, in which the Messiah is included, you testify that our Lord Jesus had NO legitimacy to the throne as David's "house" lay in ruins.


David's house, his descendants, did not lie in ruins. It was the reigning of his house that lay in ruins. And it was again raised up after the Exile. It is YOU who is saying that the house of David ceased, not me. I am sick of your FALSE ACCUSATIONs. And in accusing me you accuse JESUS CHRISY.


Not so. The "house" that never saw peace again is not the "generations" of David, but the immediate household. This is further confirmed in Zechariah Chapter 12 when God will restore David's house "IN THAT DAY" (v.8). So also Amos 9:11.


it was NOT David's house that ceased. Jehoiachin continued, then Zerubbabel, then the genealogies in 1 Chronicles. His house never ceased. We have the genealogy down to Jesus Christ. And God said, 'the sword will not depart from your house into the distant future'. And it continued on through the distant future. And if YOU are right it must go on for ever.

You will really go to any lengths to change Scripture so as to avoid admitting you are wrong. BEWARE. You will have to give account as you yourself pointed out

petrobb
Jul 26th 2014, 01:41 PM
‘All these curses will come on you, and will pursue you and overtake you until you be destroyed, because you did not listen to the voice of the Lord your God, to keeps His commandments and His statutes which He commanded you, and they will be on you as a sign and a wonder for ever’ (Deut 28.45-46).

Again, the grammar indicates that what happened to Israel is NEVER forgotten. It is a "SIGN" that shall never be forgotten. God taught two great lessons that shall never be forgotten;

I presume you can't read, which is a pity. It says that Israel will be destroyed. Thus Israel could not be restored to the land. And it was because they failed to obey God. It is quite clear from this that any promises made to a disobedient Israel are seen as CANCELLED. By making it a sign looking back on what was you are agreeing that Israel's destruction would be permanent. and do you really think that in the everlasting kingdom we will be looking back at Israel and treating them as a sign. Don't make me laugh. We will have better things to do.


He is a God Who keeps His side of a Covenant. Moses (e.g. Deut.28) outlined what would happen to Israel if they did not keep their side of the Covenant of Sinai. And God made it come to pass. What happened to Israel for their Covenant-Breaking will be an everlasting "sign". In any case, how could it pass if God's Word will never pass, even into the New Earth (Matt.24:35)?


So you agree that Israel has been destroyed in God's eyes? Otherwise why should it be a sign for the distant future?. Moses was clearly describing something climactic. to be seen as a sign into the long distant future it had to be extra-special. Nothing in the Old Testament will fit it. What will is the coming of Messiah to form the true Israel follwed by the destruction of rejected Israel in 70 AD, Unbelieving Israel is no longer Israel in God's eyes. But even that, climactic though it was, is hardly a SIGN that will last for ever. It will be long forgotten in eternity


Is it not written?
God will keep ALL His words. That is, if "eternal torment" is promised to those who go against Him, He will deliver! If a Christian damages the Church in any way "God will 'destroy' him!" (1st Cor.3:16-17). This is a sobering thought to those who misrepresent God's Words before the brethren.



Yes I would be very careful if I were you, both in producing your own fantasies and in denouncing your Christian brothers. 'Inasmuch as they did it to the least of these my brothers they have done it unto ME.'

LOL I notice you have dodged the following. Did it defeat you? LOL

For My people have forgotten me -- to make their land an astonishment and a hissing for ever, everyone who passes thereby will be astonished, and shake his head (Jer 18.15-16).

Here is another verse which makes clear that old Israel will be an astonishment and a hissing FOR EVER. No future for Israel then. Or don't you believe the word of God?
You really can't have it both ways. Either Israel is seen as deserted by God for ever, or your interpretation of forever is wrong.

petrobb
Jul 26th 2014, 01:53 PM
To the house of Jacob – ‘The women of My people you cast out from their pleasant houses, from their young children you take away My glory for ever’ (Micah 2.9)



Again you twist the grammar. "For ever" has NOT to do with Israel's FUTURE glory. It has to do with that which they had. Was the glory of Solomon's Temple not great? But shall not the glory of Zerubbabel's be greater (Hag.2:3-9)???? I do declare that the former glory of Jacob's house has passed FOR EVER. But does this mean that ANOTHER and GREATER glory does not await them?


well I have quoted it so others can judge whether it is you who are twisting the grammar. His glory was to be taken away from their children for ever. It is GOD'S GLORY that is being spoken of, not the glory of a Temple. These innocent children (not the disobedient ones) will lose God's glory for ever. At the very least it means that they will lose His presence among them, lost for ever according to you. You can twist and turn all you like but if you are honest you cannot avoid it. Of course I said IF. But I have little hope. So once again we have a prophecy declaring that Israel will lose God's glory.

petrobb
Jul 26th 2014, 02:13 PM
‘The skin disease of Naaman shall cleave to you and to your sons for ever’ (2 Kings 5.27).

Even in the heavenly kingdom or in Hell?
Should we not wait to see? In Daniel 12:2, concerning God's people Israel AFTER their restoration and resurrection it says;

"And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt"

Once again I have quoted so that all can see. How can skin disease cleave to those in the heavenly kingdom, or lost souls in Hell? And do you really think that God would refuse to have mercy on Gehazi's descendants for ever, even if they repented and believed? Or that none of Gehazi's descendants would repent? Do you really think that in our day Gehazi's descendants are still suffering skin disease as part of this curse? You have a funny idea of God.


Of Ammonites and Moabites – ‘you shall not seek their peace or their prosperity for ever’ (Deuteronomy 23.6).

Are we still to see them as unforgivable?


Notice your use of grammar, or worse ..... (I may not judge motive, but the other readers will wonder)! It is "you" in scripture - meaning Israel, but you make it "WE", the Church.

you really are past belief. Have you no conscience? The 'we' was you and me, not the church. And in fact as the church is Israel continued it would apply to the church. But even taking it in your narrow-minded way are you really arguing that since Christ came believing Israelites are still to be merciless to Moabites and Ammonites? It seems to me that you do not understand the Gospel.


Of Canaanites – ‘you shall not seek their peace or their prosperity’ (Ezra 9.12).

So that’s now three unforgivable nations. We will have to alter the Lord’s prayer.



The command was for Israel to annihilate these nations because they had;

bred Giants again from angels
caused their children to pass through the fire of Molech
worshiped idols
caused sexual offense including sodomy and bestiality
polluted the land with their iniquities

God commanded Israel to annihilate these nations because their SEED was evil. One generation produced another generation of evildoers. The so-called Lord's Prayer is directed at US for trespasses against US, not those aimed at God as the Canaanites did. But what ISRAEL is commanded to do it NOT REVOKED. So now I have a question for you. Can you show the Canaanites REMAINING in any one single prophecy of the future?



So you think Canaanites should still be annihilated today, either by us or believing Israel? Even if they have become Christians? You are clearly a man with no heart and no compassion. 'ALL MANNER OF SINS AND BLASPHEMIES SHALL BE FORGIVEN MAN. Don't you think Canaanites can be forgiven? And they still do exist. Surely even YOU cannot press for ever in this case? Or maybe YOU can. I dont think anyone else will agree with you

petrobb
Jul 26th 2014, 02:24 PM
‘So Joshua burned Ai and made it a heap of ruins for ever’ (Joshua 8.28). But later its site was built on.’

You will have to give scripture for its restoration. My understanding is that it is an archeological ruin still today. But again I must point out your twisting. Scripture consigns the city Ai to oblivion, NOT THE SITE! Is the city of Ai in existence today?

There is archaeologicsl evidence that the site was built on again, AND THE SAME STONES WOULD BE USED. You will use any get out.


‘‘These stones will be to the people of Israel a memorial for ever’ (Joshua 4.7). But they have been long forgotten and cannot be identified.



‘The twelve stones left in Jordan as a MEMORIAL...
are NOT forgotten. They are indelibly and eternally scripted in the Word of God
do not have to be identified. They must be REMEMBERED - not identified. Both Israel and the heathen offer blood sacrifices. One cannot be IDENTIFIED from the other. It is the MEMORY of what they stand for that counts.


It is clear to any honest person that they were meant as a VISIBLE MEMORIAL not a note in a text book. They are no longer there. No one can view them. Remember your conscience must give account to God.

And if you think that in a million years time anyone will be remembering those stones, you need help.

Previously i have debated with you and thought you reasonable. we agreed to disagree. Now in these posts you have shown yourself in your true colors. I will refrain from giving my opinion of you now. May God have mercy on your soul

Walls
Jul 26th 2014, 02:30 PM
Good, brother petrobb. As you say (and I do too), the readers may judge. So here's a possible deal (it always takes 2 sides for that). In posting #63 I outlined how the verses that declare the earth "to remain" are reconciled with those predicting its destruction. You have answered this by answering sentence by sentence which is, as we both know, a good way to disjoint it, and divide and conquer. So I propose that you write an uninterrupted exegesis on....

why the earth will not remain for ever as multiple scriptures say in plain language
why it is annihilated
why God was unable to push through His purpose for man in His image to rule*
why Christ will lose His possession created by Him and for Him
why the earth ends annihilated when God made it to be populated (Isa.45:18)
why Abraham died without receiving the promise of the Land (Act.7:5), and will not ever have the Land promised because it will be destroyed
why the meek will not inherit the earth because it is annihilated (conversely, why the meek have their reward removed if you claim they have already received it)
where the believers will be after resurrection if not on the earth - for it is annihilated
where the Jews will be because their Land, which God promised to restore them to in the prophets, is annihilated
where the Lake of Fire will be, seeing as the Jews will be able to look upon those in it, and they will be an abhorring to ALL FLESH (Isa.66:24)
where the NATIONS will be, seeing as Christ will rule them (future tense) with a rod of iron - but with the earth annihilated

..... and I will not comment at all, but leave the reader to compare your exegesis with my unchanged posting #63. For all of the above fit harmoniously with prophecy if taken literally and IF THE EARTH REMAINS.

Whatever the outcome - God bless

* While men rule since Adam, none was in image of God save Christ, and HE must GO to a FAR PLACE (and tarry) to receive the Kingdom AND THEN RETURN (Lk.19:12) to GIVE CITIES (plural) to His servants AFTER HIS RETURN (vs.15-19).

divaD
Jul 26th 2014, 05:13 PM
but the point is that the Hebrew word does not mean ;for ever' Intrinsically it means 'longlastingly, into the (fairlY) distant future'. This is a recognised fact among genuine Hebrew scholars.

the contrast in Eccles 1.4 is equally there if we translate as, *One generation passes away, and another generation comes: but the earth abides longlastingly.

Of course if you want to translate as 'forever' I cannot stop you. But do not claim that you have Biblical support for your position. You have not.

And the majority of Christians recognise that this earth has a time limit on it. One day the heat of the sun will change sufficiently for the earth to become uninhabitable. the earth and the heavens were never intended to be permanent. God made them with a time limit on them.


For some reason you seem to think generations end when Jesus returns. How then do you explain the following, which BTW is not a contrast but is a comparison in this case?

Lamentations 5:19 *Thou, O LORD, remainest for ever; thy throne from generation to generation.

Then we have this passage as well.

Psalms 72:7 *In his days shall the righteous flourish; and abundance of peace so long as the moon endureth.
8 *He shall have dominion also from sea to sea, and from the river unto the ends of the earth.

The He in this passage is meaning Jesus. We're told In His days shall the righteous flourish. Let's stop there for a moment and consider what In his days are referring to. The clue is the remainder of the verse...and abundance of peace so long as the moon endureth. Then we have verse 8 connecting all of this with the earth. Let's focus on this peace aspect and try and determine how long this peace will be, using other Scriptures to help us interpret this.

Isaiah 9:7 *Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.


In this passage, clearly speaking of Jesus as well, we're told there shall be no end to His peace. This then tells us that Psalms 72:7 In his days, this is literally meaning forever. In this same verse this also tells us the moon endures forever, otherise it is a contradiction to this peace being forever. Why then would the moon endure forever, but not the earth? That seems a bit silly. And besides, Psalms 72:7 is a comparison and not a contrast.

Psalms 72:17 *His name shall endure for ever: his name shall be continued as long as the sun: and men shall be blessed in him: all nations shall call him blessed.


First we're told His name shall endure for ever, then we're told his name shall be continued as long as the sun. This clearly tells us the sun has to continue forever then, in order for His name to endure forever as well. So now we have clear Scriptures that the moon and sun endure forever, yet one is to seriously believe that this doesn't include the earth as well? I don't think so. Some of us are a bit more intelligent than that, and that we can put two and two together pretty good, at least for the most part. The sun, moon, and the earth all endure forever, not a doubt in my mind. This does not cause me any problems with the NT, in regards to the moon and sun, since we're told it's only in the city where these are no longer needed, and that the city isn't meaning the earth itself, since the city is seen coming down to the earth.

percho
Jul 28th 2014, 08:34 PM
It is a serious matter to insist that God's plan with the earth and man will not be consummated. Petrobb insists that;

the earth will be destroyed
man only has a "spirit" body and thus is useless for the original intended purpose
that the Old Testament saints had to be told lies to help them understand scripture
the New Testament teaches different to the Old Testament

The sad thing is that while each has the right, and ability, to give their opinion, and many on this Forum are not swayed such "winds" of doctrine, there are many new, and young Christians who can be sorely influenced by such doctrines. The Judgment Seat of that fateful day will be something to behold - when Christians are called to account whether they stumbled a weak one or not, is brought to light for all to see.

Let us be settled that the Old Testament is in complete harmony with the New concerning ALL things and specifically the earth.

In Genesis 1:26-28, God declares His purpose for the new creature, man. It is to have New Governor of the earth, and this Governor is to be in the image and likeness of God. That the earth needed a change is indicated by the word "subdue" in these verses. This first Sabbath is crucial to God's well-being, for He makes it an "everlasting Covenant". That is, God resting while man does His work is a strong desire in our gracious Father. Note the sadness of our Lord Jesus as He must report that God has never had His Sabbath. In John 5:9 we find our Lord healing an "impotent" man on the Sabbath. And when our Lord is questioned by the Pharisees He answers in 5:17;

"But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work."

Because of the fall of man, the man could not subdue and rule the earth and was "impotent" (v.3) to do so. So God was STILL working and had not yet enjoyed a Sabbath Rest. The word "hitherto" means from the beginning until now. But Hebrews Chapters 3 and 4 assure us that there "remains a Sabbath" for God's people. That is, the original purpose of man subduing and ruling the earth while God rests WILL BE REALIZED. Let us briefly (for long posts are not read) investigate;

the so-called "destruction" of the earth
man's destiny as connected with the earth
man's body after resurrection

(1)
Petrobb will have you believe that the Old Testament tells of an earth that remains "forever" (the verses are published above), but which DOES NOT REMAIN FOREVER in the New Testament. He will cite verses like Isaiah 24:4-6, 51:6 and Revelation 20:11 (two of which already contradict his theory for they come from the Old Testament). What shall we say? Is there a contradiction in the bible? Perish the thought! There are scriptures to zoom us in and explain Isaiah 24:4-6, 51:6 and Revelation 20:11. They are;

Psalm 102:25-26; "Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands. They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed:"

Hebrews 1:10-12; "And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail."

A "Garment" in parable is works (Ps.73:6; Isa.61:10; Rev.19:8 etc.). And a "Garment" is worn over, or on the surface of that which is clothed. The "Garment" of the earth is what happened, or, what works occurred, on its surface. First the rebellion of the previous Governor of this earth, called, "Prince of this world" (Jn.14:30) laid it waste (Isa.14:17; Ezk.28:18). Then later, man's sins laid the earth waste as murder, idolatry and sexual offense "curse" and "defile the land" (e.g. Gen.3:17, 4:11; Lev.18:25). That is, the world as we know it has a history of evil works and lies cursed and defiled. And when God caused the Great Flood of Noah's time, He "washed" the earth of its previous works. That is why this flood is likened to Baptism in 1st Peter 3:20-21;

"20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:"

In Romans Chapter 6 we a "killed" by water in Baptism (Rom.6:1-6). But in 1st Peter 3:20-21 Noah and family are SAVED BY water. Why? Because they could emerge from the Ark to an earth PURGED of its old works. They could have a new beginning. BUT IT WAS STILL THE SAME EARTH. So Peter continues to tell us in 2nd Peter 2:4-6 and 3:5-7;

"For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;"

"For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men."

That is, the earth's works, or "Garment" was destroyed by water, and will be again destroyed by fire. The world and its system and its works will be PURGED and forgotten at the White Throne and a new set of WORKS - RIGHTEOUSNESS, will be the norm on that earth AFTER ITS PURGING. 2nd Peter 3:13 says of this coming world;

"Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness."

(2)
Starting from Genesis 1:26-28, through Genesis 12 when God promises a section of EARTH to Abraham and his descendants, through Psalm 8 to Matthew 5:5 to Luke 19:12-19, through Hebrews 2:5-8 to Revelation 2:27, 12:5 and 19:15, GOD HAS NEVER CHANGED HIS PLAN WITH THE EARTH. The bible ends with a heavenly city "coming down to the New Earth" (Rev.21:2) for "REIGNING" (Rev.22:5). The Greek word for "NEW EARTH" is literally "RENEWED" or "MADE PRISTINE". God is not to be thwarted. He had a plan, and NO ONE can move Him from a relentless realization of this plan. He is the ALMIGHTY. Man is made from the earth, nourished by the earth and FOR RULING THE EARTH - and he does in the end.

(3)
Petrobb will have you believe that a man is resurrection is a "spirit being". He will quote 1st Corinthians 15:44;

"It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body."

But this verse does not say a man in resurrection has a "spirit" body which "hovers over the earth" in the future. The word "Spiritual" means "having its origin in the Holy Spirit". The first body of man is made from dust. So he is called ADAM. The second body, that of Eve, has its ORIGIN in Adam, the man. So she is called "WO-MAN". The third body of man comes from the seed of the man and the seed of a woman and has its ORIGIN IN THE WOMB. But, in order to achieve the high and difficult task of "subduing" and "ruling" the "Prince of this world", who is an angel, and made higher than man (Ps.8:5; Heb.2:7-9), man needed a SECOND BIRTH. He needed to be "ENLIVENED" by the Holy Spirit. And John 3:6 tells us that ONLY the SPIRIT of man is enlivened by this RE-birth. Then later, through a process of eating Christ, the man has Christ "FORMED" in him and is TRANSFORMED into the image of Christ (Jn.6:53-56; 2nd Cor.3:18; Gal.4:19) - that is, in his SOUL. And our Lord Jesus informed us that this eating is by Him (1) going away and (2) being replaced by the Holy Spirit and that His words thus become "SPIRIT AND LIFE" (Jn.6:62-63).

Then, after death, or at the Lord Jesus' Second Coming, the believer will receive a new body. Like the New Earth above, it is the same body, but NOT FORMED IN THE WOMB, but in heaven (2nd Cor.5:1-4) by the Holy Spirit. When our Lord Jesus died He was raised by the Holy Spirit (Rom.8:11) but in the same body (with the wounds of the nails and spear). Then, our Lord Jesus, with the resurrection life of the Holy Spirit IN HIM, "BECAME THE LIFE-GIVING SPIRIT" within the context of resurrection (1st Cor.15:45).

So the whole process of getting man to be where God wants him is realized and effected BY THE HOLY SPIRIT. Thus, man remains a man, but the restoration and empowering process by the Holy Spirit makes man "SPIRITUAL". Not a "spirit-being", but a MAN who has his origin by and through the Holy Spirit. But he is still a man. Our Lord Jesus confirmed this in Luke 24:39 when He says to His disciples;

"Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have."

Our Lord Jesus, who had the wounds of Golgotha, and who ate food and was to be touched and handled, was 100% physical man, but had at this point, His ORIGIN in the HOLY SPIRIT.

To summarize;

God has NEVER changed nor deviated from His original purpose. There is (1) no scripture that reports this, and (2) to attribute such a defeat to God at Satan's hands is blasphemy.
The earth stays the earth. It might be purged one, two or three times (if you count Genesis 1:2), but it stays the original earth and is not "destroyed" in the sense of annihilation. It is "RENEWED". Its old works, or "Garment", is purged and burned away, but it itself remains forever.
Man is man and remains 100% man, even in resurrection. It is just that he undergoes a RENEWING process in all three of his parts - Spirit, Soul and Body BY THE HOLY SPIRIT to make him capable of achieving God plan with man.

In the end it was a long post - but I do not apologize.

A great post Walls.

It was not the first man Adam who was to be the heir of all things. Go knew exactly how Adam was going to respond to lust that brings forth sin that brought forth the death. The very purpose for the woman to be taken from the man was for God to bring forth his Son, the last Adam who would die and be resurrected from the dead to become the heir of all things. Now the first man Adam needs to be born again/anew as a co heir.

petrobb
Jul 28th 2014, 08:43 PM
For some reason you seem to think generations end when Jesus returns. How then do you explain the following, which BTW is not a contrast but is a comparison in this case?

Lamentations 5:19 *Thou, O LORD, remainest for ever; thy throne from generation to generation.

well its going to be tough going to maintain generations in the everlasting kingdom. 'In the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage but are as the angels in heaven' (Matt 22.30) and this in answer to the question as to whose wife a woman might be. I don't really think that Jesus was promulgating one parent families. :) there is no indication anywhere that angels reproduce. And we will be spiritual beings like they are! !!!

but of course the actual verse literally reads, 'you O YHWH remain into the distant future, your throne from generation to generation'. So Jeremiah was not thinking of eternity but of God remaining whilst this earth endured.

He will, of course go on beyond that, after all He will bring the earth to an end.

petrobb
Jul 28th 2014, 08:55 PM
Then we have this passage as well.

Psalms 72:7 *In his days shall the righteous flourish; and abundance of peace so long as the moon endureth.
8 *He shall have dominion also from sea to sea, and from the river unto the ends of the earth.

The He in this passage is meaning Jesus. We're told In His days shall the righteous flourish.


Jesus is truly reigning over His kingdom on earth now. And He has dominion over His people from sea to sea. and from the river to the ends of the earth. And under His Kingly Rule the righteous flourish and enjoy peace which passes all understanding.
And this will go on until all physical things, including the moon, are no more.

Then of course will His kingly rule on this earth come to an end. There will be no more earth. But His everlasting kingdom will continue.

More to follow.

ross3421
Aug 2nd 2014, 11:07 AM
Matt 24 speaks of this...............

REV 14
6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

Then the end shall truly come.

petrobb
Aug 2nd 2014, 04:55 PM
Matt 24 speaks of this...............

REV 14
6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

Then the end shall truly come.

There is only ONE everlasting Gospel, the Gospel of our LORD Jesus Christ, the Gospel that we proclaim today. It has never changed since Jesus commenced His ministry.

TheDivineWatermark
Aug 2nd 2014, 07:00 PM
Earlier in this thread (at post #70) I posted a link to a different "Matthew" message by Dr Paul Martin Henebury ("Jesus' Kingdom Teachings: Matthew").

I like much of this one too:

"Audio Lectures on Matthew: Chapter Twenty-Four" - Dr Paul Martin Henebury

http://www.telosministries.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/Matt24.mp3

He briefly covers verse 14 ("this gospel of the kingdom"). I pretty much agree with his perspective.

divaD
Aug 2nd 2014, 07:10 PM
There is only ONE everlasting Gospel, the Gospel of our LORD Jesus Christ, the Gospel that we proclaim today. It has never changed since Jesus commenced His ministry.



Was Ross trying to say otherwise, or were you just adding to what he said?

divaD
Aug 2nd 2014, 07:16 PM
Earlier in this thread (at post #70) I posted a link to a different "Matthew" message by Dr Paul Martin Henebury ("Jesus' Kingdom Teachings: Matthew").

I like much of this one too:

"Audio Lectures on Matthew: Chapter Twenty-Four" - Dr Paul Martin Henebury

http://www.telosministries.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/Matt24.mp3

He briefly covers verse 14 ("this gospel of the kingdom"), and I pretty much agree with his perspective.

I downloaded this mp3 and started listening to it, but have only gotten 2 minutes into it thusfar, will find more time later to try and listen to some more, but so far I like the way he is explaining things as he is going along.

TheDivineWatermark
Aug 2nd 2014, 07:20 PM
I downloaded this mp3 and started listening to it, but have only gotten 2 minutes into it thusfar, will find more time later to try and listen to some more, but so far I like the way he is explaining things as he is going along.

Glad to know it, divaD. :)

ross3421
Aug 2nd 2014, 09:51 PM
There is only ONE everlasting Gospel, the Gospel of our LORD Jesus Christ, the Gospel that we proclaim today. It has never changed since Jesus commenced His ministry.

Yes the gospel is being preached however the timing in Matt 24 coincides with Rev 14. Not until day 1290 when the AOD is set up then vials judgments happen in rev 14.

Day 1290

14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

Day 1290

6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

Read and understand.

Glorious
Aug 3rd 2014, 01:47 AM
Contrary to popular contemporary Christian teaching today, the MAIN theme of the Bible is not Salvation. The main theme of scripture is "Who will get to rule the earth?" Genesis 1:26-28 outlines God's plan with man, and this was some time before the fall of man. Salvation is added to restore men to this former high calling, and the Man Jesus is designated to be the King over all men. In Genesis 1:26-28 the word "subdue" is added, showing that some sort of rebellion is in progress, and throughout the narrative we find a certain Angel, who seems to be the original governor of the earth, trying to keep his position as "Prince of this world." The resulting battle, including the deception in the Garden of Eden, is all about this.

When God starts to make His move to recover His Plan, he chooses one man, Abraham, and promises him and his seed the earth (Gen.12:7; Rom.4:13). This man and his seed are followed through the bible, first via Isaac as the nation of Israel, and then via the Israelite King Jesus Christ (Gal.3:29). The bible ends a period of restoration of MEN after about 6'000 years when the designated King - Jesus, sets foot on earth again, defeats the kings and armies of the earth, and sets up His government. That is the gospel of the Kingdom. Because, the king is from heaven, and the rule, or Law is heavenly, it is called "the Kingdom of the Heavens". Because it all belongs to God, and its rule of law stems from God, it is conversely called "the Kingdom of God". This was our Lord Jesus prayer in Matthew 6:9-10.

"9 ..... Our Father which art in heaven (the source is God and the rule is from heaven), Hallowed be thy name.
10 Thy (God's) kingdom come. Thy will (what goes in heaven - heavenly rule) be done in earth, as it is in heaven."

But a huge stumbling block lay in the way. Sin, and its result - death! How can fallen men rule the way a sinless God wants, and how can dead men rule? So a sovereign and intricate plan is devised because God is 100% righteous and EVERY sin had to be met with appropriate retribution. So, this same Jesus, born of a Virgin so that he is 100% man, but born of the Holy Spirit so that His lineage is not tainted by the sinful nature of Adam (or the man), walks this earth for 33 1/2 years under God's Law, and does not fail once. Having been found sinless, He is deemed a natural substitute for other sinful men, and pays the high price of God's just retribution on every sin ever committed and ever to be committed. As proof that all sin is put away, this Jesus is raised from the dead by God to make apparent that sins are fully dealt with, because if one sin still remained, this Jesus could not have been resurrected - because the wages of sin is death.

The complete work of this Jesus in putting men's sins away before a 100% righteous God instead of those men paying themselves, is called "the gospel of grace" (Act.20:24).

This Jesus now offers men this Substitution if they call upon His name with faith. If men do call upon the name of Jesus in faith that He is the Son of God and that He died for their sins, they are STARTED on a path of recovery to be KINGS of this earth. Thus, the "gospel of grace" is needed so that the "gospel of the Kingdom" (who rules the earth) can be realized. The Apostles and disciples of Jesus taught the "gospel of grace" AS IT IS NEEDED FOR THE GOSPEL OF THE KINGDOM - THE FINAL RESULT OF THE SAVING OF MEN FOR RULING THE EARTH.

Thank you for such a very, very good post!

Noeb
Aug 3rd 2014, 03:34 PM
He briefly covers verse 14 ("this gospel of the kingdom"). I pretty much agree with his perspective.

Yes the gospel is being preached however the timing in Matt 24 coincides with Rev 14.
As I said in post #13 I agree as well. This gospel includes the physical presence of the King.

petrobb
Aug 3rd 2014, 07:16 PM
Good, brother petrobb. As you say (and I do too), the readers may judge. So here's a possible deal (it always takes 2 sides for that). In posting #63 I outlined how the verses that declare the earth "to remain" are reconciled with those predicting its destruction. You have answered this by answering sentence by sentence which is, as we both know, a good way to disjoint it, and divide and conquer. So I propose that you write an uninterrupted exegesis on....
why the earth will not remain for ever as multiple scriptures say in plain language

Because the Hebrew word translated 'forever' means literally 'into the hidden future' (it comes from the root to 'hide'). Thus in 1 Samuel 27.12 Achish said of David 'he will be my servant 'olam (for ever)'. But he clearly did not think that David would literally be his servant for ever. He meant that he would be his servant for a long time to come.

I hate listing lots of verses but in this case it is necessary. In none of the following does 'olam literally mean for ever:


‘The sin of Judah is written with a pen of iron --- You even of yourself will discontinue from your heritage that I gave you, and I will cause you to serve your enemies in a land which you do not know, for you have kindled a fire in my anger which will burn for ever’ (Jer 17.4).

But the whole point of prophecy is that God's anger will NOT burn against Israel/Judah 'for ever'.

To David after his adultery and murder of Uriah – ‘the sword will NEVER depart from your house’ (2 Sam .12.10).

But it will certainly depart when Messiah reigns for ever.

For My people have forgotten me -- to make their land an astonishment and a hissing for ever, everyone who passes thereby will be astonished, and shake his head (Jer 18.15-16).

Palestine will not literally be an astonishment and hissing for ever (even though it might well be so at present

‘All these curses will come on you, and will pursue you and overtake you until you be destroyed, because you did not listen to the voice of the Lord your God, to keeps His commandments and His statutes which He commanded you, and they will be on you as a sign and a wonder for ever’ (Deut 28.45-46).

Is God's curse on Israel for ever?

To the house of Jacob – ‘The women of My people you cast out from their pleasant houses, from their young children you take away My glory for ever’ (Micah 2.9)

But God's glory was subsequently restored to His people.

‘The skin disease of Naaman shall cleave to you and to your sons for ever’ (2 Kings 5.27). Even in the heavenly kingdom or in Hell?
Of Ammonites and Moabites – ‘you shall not seek their peace or their prosperity for ever’ (Deuteronomy 23.6). Are we still to see them as unforgivable?

Of Canaanites – ‘you shall not seek their peace or their prosperity’ (Ezra 9.12). So that’s now three unforgivable nations. We will have to alter the Lord’s prayer.

‘So Joshua burned Ai and made it a heap of ruins for ever’ (Joshua 8.28). But we know from archaeology that later its site was built on.’

‘These stones will be to the people of Israel a memorial for ever’ (Joshua 4.7). They were intended to be a literal and visible memorial but they have been long forgotten and cannot be identified.

Achish of Gath of David, ‘therefore he will be my servant forever’ Achish clearly meant as long as he lived.

‘his master will bore his ear through with an awl and he will serve him for ever’ (Exodus 21.6; Deut15.17). Clearly it means while he lives.

Samuel’s mother said of Samuel, ‘As soon as the child is weaned I will bring him, that he may appear in the presence of YHWH, and abide there for ever’ that is, until he dies.

The blood of Abner was to be on Joab’s house ‘for ever’ (1 Kings 2.33). Do we think that it still is? Has God no mercy?

David said, ‘YHWH the God of Israel has given peace to His people, and He dwells in Jerusalem for ever ‘ (1 Chron 23.25) but YHWH has not dwelt there in any meaningful sense for the last 2000 years or more.

Solomon said, ‘For YHWH God of Israel chose me from all my father’s house to be king for ever’ (1 Chron 28.4) . It is clear that Solomon has not been king for ever. He died some years ago.

Thus 'olam means 'into the hidden future' and not literally for ever. This earth is physical and corruptible. Such things do not last for ever. (Nor do suns or moons).




why it is annihilated

because it is physical, corruptible, and sin cursed. it will be no use for those with spiritual, heavenly bodies. A spiritual, heavenly, incorruptible earth would NOT be the sane earth



why God was unable to push through His purpose for man in His image to rule*

Man's specific task was to subject the animals. If you look around that is precisely what he has done. Thus that purpose was fulfilled.



why Christ will lose His possession created by Him and for Him

You do not LOSE what you yourself destroy. If I make something for myself it is open to me what I do with it. The universe was created by Him and for Him, and once it has fulfilled its purpose as a training school for the righteous it will have done its job.
Goodbye earth :idea:



why the earth ends annihilated when God made it to be populated (Isa.45:18)

because it is now populated and then it will have fulfilled its purpose. The Bible begins with physical, corruptible creation and ends with the new spiritual, incorruptible creation



why Abraham died without receiving the promise of the Land (Act.7:5), and will not ever have the Land promised because it will be destroyed

because what Abraham was really being promised in a way that he could understand was an eternal inheritance. Hebrews 11.10-14 shows how he received this.




why the meek will not inherit the earth because it is annihilated (conversely, why the meek have their reward removed if you claim they have already received it)

the meek always have 'inherited the earth' because they walk with God. Unlike others they do not fight over it, they enjoy it. But what they receive in the after life is better far (as with Abraham)




where the believers will be after resurrection if not on the earth - for it is annihilated



After this physical and corruptible heavens and earth have been destroyed those who have been transformed into their spiritual heavenly bodies will go to live with the Father and the Son (and the Holy Spirit) in the new heavens and earth, a spiritual, heavenly heaven and earth where they will be with Him for ever. Whether it will have heavenly time and be in heavenly space I do not know. But it will hardly be important. What will matter is that we are with Him. There there will be no sexual activity, no conception, no births for we will be as the angels in Heaven (Matt 22.30)


where the Jews will be because their Land, which God promised to restore them to in the prophets, is annihilated


the promise of the land was conditional (as they were informed time and again). They failed the conditions. But those who were true believers will be with us and God in the new heavens and the new earth which will more than fulfil the promises.




where the Lake of Fire will be, seeing as the Jews will be able to look upon those in it, and they will be an abhorring to ALL FLESH (Isa.66:24)





Actually there were no Jews when Isaiah wrote those words. But we will not quibble. Like the spiritual, heavenly, incorruptible new heavens and new earth suited to our spiritual, heavenly, incorruptible bodies, so the Lake of Fire is a physical description of a spiritual reality. SATAN could not be flung into a physical Lake of Fire. He is a spirit. No fire would touch him. The Lake of Fire may well be visitable by the inhabitants of the New Jerusalem (Gal 4.20 ff; Hebrews 12.22; Revelation 21.1 ff). But really Isaiah's picture is one emphasising the triumph of the righteous and the doom of the unrighteous IN OLD TESTAMENT terms.




where the NATIONS will be, seeing as Christ will rule them (future tense) with a rod of iron - but with the earth annihilated



To shepherd with a rod of iron is to destroy (Psalm 2 says 'break them with a rod of iron). The shepherd had a wooden rod with which to tend his sheep. The iron rod was for killing lions and bears which he 'shepherded with a rod of iron'. the parallel to shepherd with a rod of iron is 'break them in pieces like a potter's vessel'. It is a description of judgment. After that there will be no nations to rule.


..... and I will not comment at all, but leave the reader to compare your exegesis with my unchanged posting #63. For all of the above fit harmoniously with prophecy if taken literally and IF THE EARTH REMAINS.


A big IF indeed.


Whatever the outcome - God bless

And you too


* While men rule since Adam, none was in image of God save Christ, and HE must GO to a FAR PLACE (and tarry) to receive the Kingdom AND THEN RETURN (Lk.19:12) to GIVE CITIES (plural) to His servants AFTER HIS RETURN (vs.15-19).

What you are describing is a parable based on the visit of Archelaus to Rome to receive his kingdom. You must not overpress the details of parables. That is what Archelaus did to his supporters when he returned.

Jesus was using it as a picture of His second coming when He too will give rewards. but those rewards will be far better than governing cities. In the new heavens and earth the emphasis will be on serving others, not ruling them (Luke 22.24-27)

Walls
Aug 3rd 2014, 09:10 PM
Because the Hebrew word translated 'forever' means literally 'into the hidden future' (it comes from the root to 'hide'). Thus in 1 Samuel 27.12 Achish said of David 'he will be my servant 'olam (for ever)'. But he clearly did not think that David would literally be his servant for ever. He meant that he would be his servant for a long time to come.

I hate listing lots of verses but in this case it is necessary. In none of the following does 'olam literally mean for ever:


‘The sin of Judah is written with a pen of iron --- You even of yourself will discontinue from your heritage that I gave you, and I will cause you to serve your enemies in a land which you do not know, for you have kindled a fire in my anger which will burn for ever’ (Jer 17.4).

But the whole point of prophecy is that God's anger will NOT burn against Israel/Judah 'for ever'.

To David after his adultery and murder of Uriah – ‘the sword will NEVER depart from your house’ (2 Sam .12.10).

But it will certainly depart when Messiah reigns for ever.

For My people have forgotten me -- to make their land an astonishment and a hissing for ever, everyone who passes thereby will be astonished, and shake his head (Jer 18.15-16).

Palestine will not literally be an astonishment and hissing for ever (even though it might well be so at present

‘All these curses will come on you, and will pursue you and overtake you until you be destroyed, because you did not listen to the voice of the Lord your God, to keeps His commandments and His statutes which He commanded you, and they will be on you as a sign and a wonder for ever’ (Deut 28.45-46).

Is God's curse on Israel for ever?

To the house of Jacob – ‘The women of My people you cast out from their pleasant houses, from their young children you take away My glory for ever’ (Micah 2.9)

But God's glory was subsequently restored to His people.

‘The skin disease of Naaman shall cleave to you and to your sons for ever’ (2 Kings 5.27). Even in the heavenly kingdom or in Hell?
Of Ammonites and Moabites – ‘you shall not seek their peace or their prosperity for ever’ (Deuteronomy 23.6). Are we still to see them as unforgivable?

Of Canaanites – ‘you shall not seek their peace or their prosperity’ (Ezra 9.12). So that’s now three unforgivable nations. We will have to alter the Lord’s prayer.

‘So Joshua burned Ai and made it a heap of ruins for ever’ (Joshua 8.28). But we know from archaeology that later its site was built on.’

‘These stones will be to the people of Israel a memorial for ever’ (Joshua 4.7). They were intended to be a literal and visible memorial but they have been long forgotten and cannot be identified.

Achish of Gath of David, ‘therefore he will be my servant forever’ Achish clearly meant as long as he lived.

‘his master will bore his ear through with an awl and he will serve him for ever’ (Exodus 21.6; Deut15.17). Clearly it means while he lives.

Samuel’s mother said of Samuel, ‘As soon as the child is weaned I will bring him, that he may appear in the presence of YHWH, and abide there for ever’ that is, until he dies.

The blood of Abner was to be on Joab’s house ‘for ever’ (1 Kings 2.33). Do we think that it still is? Has God no mercy?

David said, ‘YHWH the God of Israel has given peace to His people, and He dwells in Jerusalem for ever ‘ (1 Chron 23.25) but YHWH has not dwelt there in any meaningful sense for the last 2000 years or more.

Solomon said, ‘For YHWH God of Israel chose me from all my father’s house to be king for ever’ (1 Chron 28.4) . It is clear that Solomon has not been king for ever. He died some years ago.

Thus 'olam means 'into the hidden future' and not literally for ever. This earth is physical and corruptible. Such things do not last for ever. (Nor do suns or moons).




because it is physical, corruptible, and sin cursed. it will be no use for those with spiritual, heavenly bodies. A spiritual, heavenly, incorruptible earth would NOT be the sane earth



Man's specific task was to subject the animals. If you look around that is precisely what he has done. Thus that purpose was fulfilled.



You do not LOSE what you yourself destroy. If I make something for myself it is open to me what I do with it. The universe was created by Him and for Him, and once it has fulfilled its purpose as a training school for the righteous it will have done its job.
Goodbye earth :idea:



because it is now populated and then it will have fulfilled its purpose. The Bible begins with physical, corruptible creation and ends with the new spiritual, incorruptible creation



because what Abraham was really being promised in a way that he could understand was an eternal inheritance. Hebrews 11.10-14 shows how he received this.




the meek always have 'inherited the earth' because they walk with God. Unlike others they do not fight over it, they enjoy it. But what they receive in the after life is better far (as with Abraham)



After this physical and corruptible heavens and earth have been destroyed those who have been transformed into their spiritual heavenly bodies will go to live with the Father and the Son (and the Holy Spirit) in the new heavens and earth, a spiritual, heavenly heaven and earth where they will be with Him for ever. Whether it will have heavenly time and be in heavenly space I do not know. But it will hardly be important. What will matter is that we are with Him. There there will be no sexual activity, no conception, no births for we will be as the angels in Heaven (Matt 22.30)



the promise of the land was conditional (as they were informed time and again). They failed the conditions. But those who were true believers will be with us and God in the new heavens and the new earth which will more than fulfil the promises.



Actually there were no Jews when Isaiah wrote those words. But we will not quibble. Like the spiritual, heavenly, incorruptible new heavens and new earth suited to our spiritual, heavenly, incorruptible bodies, so the Lake of Fire is a physical description of a spiritual reality. SATAN could not be flung into a physical Lake of Fire. He is a spirit. No fire would touch him. The Lake of Fire may well be visitable by the inhabitants of the New Jerusalem (Gal 4.20 ff; Hebrews 12.22; Revelation 21.1 ff). But really Isaiah's picture is one emphasising the triumph of the righteous and the doom of the unrighteous IN OLD TESTAMENT terms.



To shepherd with a rod of iron is to destroy (Psalm 2 says 'break them with a rod of iron). The shepherd had a wooden rod with which to tend his sheep. The iron rod was for killing lions and bears which he 'shepherded with a rod of iron'. the parallel to shepherd with a rod of iron is 'break them in pieces like a potter's vessel'. It is a description of judgment. After that there will be no nations to rule.



A big IF indeed.



And you too



What you are describing is a parable based on the visit of Archelaus to Rome to receive his kingdom. You must not overpress the details of parables. That is what Archelaus did to his supporters when he returned.

Jesus was using it as a picture of His second coming when He too will give rewards. but those rewards will be far better than governing cities. In the new heavens and earth the emphasis will be on serving others, not ruling them (Luke 22.24-27)

Your post is noted without comment.

divaD
Aug 3rd 2014, 10:02 PM
that is, that God did not mean what He said.

And that is something one should never do, especially when the language is so plain and vividly clear that even a young child would have a hard time misunderstanding it. Usually misundertandings like this come from trying to fit something with one's theology. That's why I mentioned a young child. A young child would likely have no bias like that to begin with.

Walls
Aug 4th 2014, 08:28 AM
And that is something one should never do, especially when the language is so plain and vividly clear that even a young child would have a hard time misunderstanding it. Usually misundertandings like this come from trying to fit something with one's theology. That's why I mentioned a young child. A young child would likely have no bias like that to begin with.

That is usually the case. Someone usually gets taught a concept and then spends all their energy trying to defend it, irrespective of the mountain of evidence to the contrary. It would do us all good to FIRST read the scriptures, then evaluate what the different teachers say. Then pray. Then start to discard those teachers who are obviously wrong. It takes time and energy, but it usually brings a great result. Even Paul had to be trained for 14 years ON TOP OF HIS BIBLICAL BACKGROUND (Gamaliel). Imagine how much stuff this great intellectual, and fervent follower of God, had to "unlearn" in 14 years.

petrobb
Aug 4th 2014, 11:13 AM
Yes the gospel is being preached however the timing in Matt 24 coincides with Rev 14. Not until day 1290 when the AOD is set up then vials judgments happen in rev 14.

you have no evidence whatsoever for linking Revelation 14 with the 1290 days of Daniel which had in mind the Roman invasion of Palestine in 67-70 AD.



14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

verse 14 ends a series of forecasts made by Jesus. Verse 15 commences a bactracking to the siege of Jerusalem in 70 AD. The two are not connected timewise. The Good News of the Kingly Rule of God IS the Gospel of the grace of God and IS the everlasting Gospel


6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

The everlasting Gospel was proclaimed by Jesus, was taken to the world by the Apostles and is now to be angelically proclaimed. It has nothing to do with the 1290 days of Daniel which had in mind the desecration of the Temple in 70 AD.




Read and understand.

Please do :)

petrobb
Aug 4th 2014, 11:15 AM
That is usually the case. Someone usually gets taught a concept and then spends all their energy trying to defend it, irrespective of the mountain of evidence to the contrary. It would do us all good to FIRST read the scriptures, then evaluate what the different teachers say. Then pray. Then start to discard those teachers who are obviously wrong. It takes time and energy, but it usually brings a great result. Even Paul had to be trained for 14 years ON TOP OF HIS BIBLICAL BACKGROUND (Gamaliel). Imagine how much stuff this great intellectual, and fervent follower of God, had to "unlearn" in 14 years.

Perhaps you should take your own advice? :)

petrobb
Aug 4th 2014, 11:25 AM
I realize you said you wouldn't comment, but in this case I think you should be off the hook since Petrobb failed to exegete what you proposed, which would mean specific text relating to the earth enduring forever. Where is the exegesis of those specific texts in his post? I fail to see them.

As my post shows they are irrelevant as the Hebrew word 'alom does mot mean 'for ever' it means 'into the hidden future' Your interference is not appreciated. If you want to speak about me speak to ME not in sideways remarks which are unChristian

Walls
Aug 4th 2014, 11:58 AM
Perhaps you should take your own advice? :)

Absolutely! It behooves all of us who take the responsibility to teach other men to be VERY familiar with our subject. The end of the matter - the Bema, is too frightening to contemplate playing with God's things.

BrianW
Aug 4th 2014, 12:37 PM
Mod Note: If anyone wants to play kid's games they can get off the forum and go to a playground.

Name calling, belittling, cutting down anothers beliefs, sour attitude or general conduct not becoming a brother or sister in the faith will not be tolerated.

Take heed. Posts have been deleted.

Noeb
Aug 4th 2014, 02:48 PM
and is now to be angelically proclaimed.
could you elaborate please?

petrobb
Aug 4th 2014, 09:09 PM
could you elaborate please?

certainly if you give me the post number and approximately where in the post it is found. i suspect it just came from the verse being referred to

Noeb
Aug 4th 2014, 09:32 PM
You said it. Click the blue link next to your name

http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=3147612#post3147612

petrobb
Aug 5th 2014, 01:24 PM
could you elaborate please?

thank you for directing me to the post.

6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

it clearly says here that the angel will proclaim the everlasting Gospel, which is summed up as fearing God and giving glory to Him. That is the essence of the Gospel from the human side in six word. Those who fear God and give Him glory are those who come under the Kingly Rule of God To come under the Kingly Rule of God is to enjoy the benefits of the Gospel. The greatest need of the nations is to fear God and give Him glory.

Noeb
Aug 5th 2014, 02:12 PM
how is an angel proclaiming the everlasting gospel NOW?

divaD
Aug 5th 2014, 03:43 PM
As my post shows they are irrelevant as the Hebrew word 'alom does mot mean 'for ever' it means 'into the hidden future' Your interference is not appreciated. If you want to speak about me speak to ME not in sideways remarks which are unChristian

You simply misunderstood my intentions then. All I was doing was just offerering an observation, maybe because I understand exegete differently. The way I understand it, it means to interpret the text in question, not texts that have nothing to do with it. I thus didn't see where you specifically did this. Yet somehow I end up being the bad guy here.

From now on I'll do my best to keep any observations to myself

petrobb
Aug 5th 2014, 04:29 PM
how is an angel proclaiming the everlasting gospel NOW?

Well the words are spoken at the time of the fall of Babylon the great so I would not quite call it now. But there is no real difficulty. John is seeing things from a heavenly point of view. All through Revelation angels and men are working in unison. The seven churches were responding to seven angels. Do you think they saw angels or heard the voices of angels. The churches received the message of the angels through a man. The angels work invisibly amongst men and they make their proclamations through men. They are ministering spirits sent to serve those who are the heirs of salvation.Thus what the angel was proclaiming might well be proclaimed through men. Indeed it was already being proclaimed through John.

In the past angels have regularly been active when men were unaware of them. Elisha saw the invisible activities of angels protecting him when no one else was aware of their activity. David saw the activity of the avenging angel when others saw only pestilence and plague. The Assyrians were not aware of the presence of an angel, only of the disease that smote them. Daniel saw the activities of angels where men saw only wars (Dan 10). Ezekiel saw a heavenly Temple on a mountain near Jerusalem. The point is that angels are regularly active protecting God's people and aiding the spread of the Gospel even though we are not aware of it. Angels watch over young believers. One day we will probably stand amazed when we become aware of what their activities have been.

Thus it is not surprising to learn of an angel aiding the spread of the Gospel at a crucial time in history, even if men are unaware of it. .

divaD
Aug 5th 2014, 04:48 PM
As my post shows they are irrelevant as the Hebrew word 'alom does mot mean 'for ever' it means 'into the hidden future' Your interference is not appreciated. If you want to speak about me speak to ME not in sideways remarks which are unChristian

Wanted to add this as well and then I have spoken my peace and prefer to drop it after that.

It simply seems like a misunderstanding then, because exegete might mean one thing to you and something different to me. My intentions were hardly evil or UNChristion IMO, since all I was doing was providing what I felt like was an honest observation, based on how I myself understand to exegete something. If we're not allowed to make observations in here and then point them out, then anyone could get away with anything unchallenged and say whatever they want.

bunnymuldare
Aug 5th 2014, 07:11 PM
What is “this gospel of the kingdom” mentioned in Matt 24:14? What is the actual message preached (or close estimation)?

The gospel is the good news that "God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him shall have everlasting life."

Jesus, as God, laid down his life so that we would understand how much he loves us, in order that we might choose Him over the world's system of might makes right. If we chose Him something supernatural happens; He abides in us, and we abide in Him. His presence changes us from the inside out. We are continually drawn back to Him so that sin no longer has any dominion over us.

The gospel, the good news, is that God loves us.

So what is the one thing that we can do to make him happy? Love one another. That sums it all up.

So simple a child can understand it.

divaD
Aug 5th 2014, 08:17 PM
So what is the one thing that we can do to make him happy? Love one another. That sums it all up.

So simple a child can understand it.


This is really a hard concept to grasp especially if one were in a war conflict with another country. I've never been in the military before, but Jesus says to even love your enemies. How is that accomplished by a Christian in the military who has the enemy in his sights then lunges a grenade at him? Did Jesus mean just love some enemies but not all enemies? War then seems to be a contradiction to love one another. and the ironic thing about it, since Matt 24 is the topic of discussion, in this very same chapter Jesus tells us this, while at the same time He elsewhere tells us to love our enemies.

Matthew 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7*For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

petrobb
Aug 5th 2014, 09:21 PM
This is really a hard concept to grasp especially if one were in a war conflict with another country. I've never been in the military before, but Jesus says to even love your enemies. How is that accomplished by a Christian in the military who has the enemy in his sights then lunges a grenade at him? Did Jesus mean just love some enemies but not all enemies? War then seems to be a contradiction to love one another. and the ironic thing about it, since Matt 24 is the topic of discussion, in this very same chapter Jesus tells us this, while at the same time He elsewhere tells us to love our enemies.

Matthew 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7*For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

I will agree that it is a hard concept. But a soldier need not have hatred in his heart to kill where the necessity arises. He need not want to kill. I was conscripted into the RAF and had to guard road convoys and hillside camps whilst also being a radar fitter. But I had no hatred for the enemy even though I would have been prepared to kill to defend the convoy or the camps. it would not be my choice that they came against me to kill me and my comrades. Yet had they needed my compassion I would freely have offered it to them.

So I consider that it is possible to love your enemy even when you are ready to kill him.

petrobb
Aug 5th 2014, 09:24 PM
Wanted to add this as well and then I have spoken my peace and prefer to drop it after that.

It simply seems like a misunderstanding then, because exegete might mean one thing to you and something different to me. My intentions were hardly evil or UNChristion IMO, since all I was doing was providing what I felt like was an honest observation, based on how I myself understand to exegete something. If we're not allowed to make observations in here and then point them out, then anyone could get away with anything unchallenged and say whatever they want.

But the point is that the observation should have been made to me, not in a conversation behind my back :)

Glorious
Aug 5th 2014, 09:26 PM
Love is the bond that hold the following line item things of the good news of the kingdom. These things constitute good news in the kingdom:

There is much thanksgiving and praise to God.
God the Father sees our faith, love and hope.
Power, assurance, joy and Holy Ghost comes with the word of the gospel.
We turn from idols to serve the living God,
We wait for the Son of God who spares us from wrath to come.
We experience holiness, justification and blamelessness.
We receive the powerfully working truth.
Concerning faith, we please God and are established, comforted and perfected.
We become sanctified and abstain from sin and uncleanness.
We show brotherly love in kindness to one another.
We hope for the glorious appearing of the Son of God.
We become children of the Light and Day.

Noeb
Aug 5th 2014, 11:40 PM
Well the words are spoken at the time of the fall of Babylon the great so I would not quite call it now. But there is no real difficulty. John is seeing things from a heavenly point of view. All through Revelation angels and men are working in unison. The seven churches were responding to seven angels. Do you think they saw angels or heard the voices of angels. The churches received the message of the angels through a man. The angels work invisibly amongst men and they make their proclamations through men. They are ministering spirits sent to serve those who are the heirs of salvation.Thus what the angel was proclaiming might well be proclaimed through men. Indeed it was already being proclaimed through John.

Thus it is not surprising to learn of an angel aiding the spread of the Gospel at a crucial time in history, even if men are unaware of it. .I completely disagree and do not spiritualize these things. Angels are not always invisible and unheard in scripture, and the messengers of the seven churches were men.


Hag 1:13 Then Haggai, the messenger of the LORD, spoke to the people with the LORD's message, "I am with you, declares the LORD."

So yes, the messengers heard (read) the letter John wrote them. Men were responsible for the churches not angels.
The angels, not men, are real, in time, and are actually doing things.
Yes, the angel will actually preach and all nations will actually hear.
The time is not like when John preached or now.
As you have seen and can see and imagine here again, our eschatological views and views of Scriptures have little in common. But thanks for sharing.

bunnymuldare
Aug 6th 2014, 03:01 AM
This is really a hard concept to grasp especially if one were in a war conflict with another country. I've never been in the military before, but Jesus says to even love your enemies. How is that accomplished by a Christian in the military who has the enemy in his sights then lunges a grenade at him? Did Jesus mean just love some enemies but not all enemies? War then seems to be a contradiction to love one another. and the ironic thing about it, since Matt 24 is the topic of discussion, in this very same chapter Jesus tells us this, while at the same time He elsewhere tells us to love our enemies.

Matthew 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7*For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

Maybe you could ask a policeman how he does it. I guess you choose your battles carefully. Go with the abused spouse, go with the victim of rape, go with the man who had his home invaded, go with the family that had their car hijacked, go with the bank that has been robbed,etc. All these are examples of loving your neighbor even though it means someone is going to jail for what they did. Maybe there will be a jailhouse conversion.